The rarest Soviet submachine gun of the 1942 model of the year

At one time, the Degtyarev submachine gun, the factory index of which is KB-P-135, was to become a new compact and light submachine gun with a folding metal butt, which would complement a successful model - the Shpagin submachine gun PPSh-41, already in service with Krasnaya The army.

During the competitive tests held in the 1942 year, this weapon showed very good results, losing the palm to another PPS-42 submachine gun, the developer of which was the Soviet designer Alexei Sudaev.

PDM-42 - the rarest submachine gun in our country. Only two museums can boast of having these weapons. Only two copies of this prototype have survived to this day, one of which can be seen in Yekaterinburg in the SEC “Archangel Michael”.

What element of the PDM-42 played a fatal role in adopting this prototype? Writer, historian Andrei Ulanov and historical weapons expert Nikolai Sobolev will talk in detail about the experienced Degtyarev submachine gun PDM KB-P-135, focusing on its technical features.

Comments

[Plague doctor]

It is strange why extremely inconvenient disk shops for PPSh were mass produced, rather than box-shaped ones, just as a massive bed of wood could also be replaced by a folding butt. An interesting submachine gun, I have not heard about this, but in any case, in my opinion, better than PPS

[eagle owl]

In the same competition, and this participated:

In the first half of 1942, three rounds of competitive testing of new submachine guns were conducted, in which, in addition to the system Armless-Vysotsky The designs of Degtyarev (PDM), Shpagin (PPSh-2), Zaitsev, and a number of other designers and teams participated. In the first two rounds, the Bezruchko-Vysotsky system was the leader,

[beeper]

Regarding the bolt assembly and the trigger mechanism, a promising, but still "crude" and non-technological, PP system of the Artkom technician-lieutenant IK Bezruchko-Vysotsky was instructed to urgently finalize the more experienced arms designer, engineer-captain Alexei Ivanovich Sudaev!
As a result of the creative processing of this and its own experimental design, it turned out PPS-42, and then, based on the results of front-line operation and experience of mass production, and an improved, known to all of us, PPS-43 (as in my opinion, it carried an even greater percentage "structural elements of Bezruchko-Vysotsky" than the original PPS-42).

[Catfish]

Buddy Pishchak, glad to welcome!
There is a question.
1/. As far as I know, Sudaev created and created his own model in besieged Leningrad even before the announcement of this competition and he had never heard of any Bezruchko-Vysotsky.
2 /. What elements did Sudayev "borrow" from Vysotsky and how did the "greater percentage" turn out to be?
I compared both Sudaev’s cars, the first and second, in the Museum of the Armed Forces and did not notice a big difference between them. And the whole highlight of Sudaev was in the mechanism of his PP, I don’t remember exactly what the original model is called, everything is connected with the combat and return spring.
The only thing that "brings them together" is a purely copied stock from the MP38 / 40, as well as on the Degtyarevskaya model.
Sincerely, Yours M.Kot.

[beeper]

Good evening, dear my friend Sea Cat!
I apologize for not answering your earlier question about the "conspiracy" of the sinking of a French submarine - it's my fault (although he added a plus as a sign that he had read it), sometimes there is simply no disposition to "substantiate" your views on certain problems, especially if in a nutshell it does not work out, and then the topic itself is "blurred" in time .. . it happens that I am too lazy to think seriously, after all, some thoughts associatively "pull up" others ... and the result is always the same - spleen and sadness overcome ...
Honestly, this is my, expressed, private opinion about PPS-42 and PPS-43 ten years ago, when I gathered together the printed and network materials available to me on the work of the respected Alexei Ivanovich Sudaev and the designs of his PPS and AS, as well as Bezruchko-Vysotsky's PP design accompanying him and re-read everything together at the same time - for a voluminous "general picture" (according to the now well-known method once described by Viktor Suvorov (Rezun)) in his head, carefully analyzing and comparing the description and pictures of parts, their designs and sizes.
And he made such a conclusion-opinion for himself (by the way, based on open sources of information available to any interested person). IMHO
Between the designs (and their details) of the original PPS-42 (since, I fully admit that there were samples of PPS-42 of the "transition period" of putting into production PPS-43, which no longer had a "big difference" with it ?!) and PPS -43 there is a noticeable difference - in the same design and dimensions of the shutters and the location of the return-mainspring guide, the design of the receiver (respectively, composite and solid-stamped, as well as the differences in the liner for attaching the barrel) ... about, invisible to the ordinary eye, more free , the cutting of the chamber, which made it possible to freely use surrogate cartridges of "wartime production" and other hidden nuances, we are not talking about.
By the way, some sources say that technician-lieutenant I.K. Bezruchko-Vysotsky was awarded the Order of the Red Star for his contribution to the design of the PPS!) - the fact that his bolt group with a reciprocating mainspring and the trigger were borrowed into the design of the PPS was also officially recognized, because the results were important for the front, so any justified compilation of someone else's "design work" was only welcome!

"The highlight associated with the return-mainspring" -improvement-strengthening of the fastening of the guide rod of the return-mainspring in the gate of the PP with a cylindrical part inserted into the transverse opening of the shutter is the original design decision of A.I.Sudaev, carried out by him, with the refinement-improvement of the PP -42, in the next sample-PPS-43.
And the very location of the guide rod in the longitudinal groove of the left part of the shutter and its extension, to inform him of the reflector function (instead of the stamped reflector used on the PPS-42, which is firmly fixed in the receiver), is A. I. Sudaev’s original use of I. K. Bezruchko-Vysotsky.

I wish you good health and well-being, Comrade Konstantin aka Sea Cat!
Until next time!
Sincerely, Yours is just a Cat (in Farsi).

[Catfish]

Thanks for the answer, Buddy Cat!

I specifically meant

fastenings of the guide rod of the reciprocating spring in the PP shutter with a cylindrical part inserted into the transverse bolt hole

, therefore, he said that he did not see big differences.
And the fact that the compilation of other people's design developments was only welcomed was not only in wartime, it is enough to recall the history of the AK. The army wanted to get what it needed, and it got it. And "who is there, what and how" was not important for the country's defense.

And you health and all the best!

[beeper]

PPS Yes, it was written "overclocking", as an illustration of such a tendency in the domestic arms building, about the urgent post-war creation of an "automatic machine for an intermediate cartridge", as about, also successful, compiled collective work of NIPSMVO specialists, as well as those allocated to help M. .Kalashnikov, Kovrov gunsmiths, before sending and deleted in my comments!
But you, Comrade Konstantin, I see, I read my thoughts in the summer!

[Catfish]

So it still lies on the surface, no matter how you guess it.

[beeper]

PS Yes, and to establish the production of your own (I.K. Bezruchko-Vysotsky, who won the competition-competition, including with samples of PP design! ) PPS-42, as the most knowledgeable of all the nuances of its design and able on the spot to urgently solve all issues of design support of serial production, as an experienced technical specialist, Alexei Ivanovich Sudaev was sent to besieged Leningrad!
He successfully coped with the responsible task of the command and not only ensured the production of his PPS-42 for the defenders of Leningrad and supplies to the mainland, but also worked on improving the design based on the experience of the combat work of his brainchild ...
This many months of intense, half-starved work on the blockade front, under the constant loss of great responsibility, in general, undermined, fatally, the health of a very young Alexei Ivanovich Sudaev ...
But the famous Sudaev’s concepts of creating small arms (as well as the mechanism for protecting against double loading of mortars) weapons are not forgotten and forever entered the treasury of Russian and international weapons thought, embodied in experimental and serial models of outstanding Soviet, and now Russian, weapons!

[Serg koma]

Quote: pishchak

This months-long strenuous half-starving work on the besieged front, under the constant cover of enormous responsibility, in general, undermined, fatally, the health of a very young Alexei Ivanovich Sudaev ..

Can you enlighten on the fate of Ivan Konstantinovich Bezruchko-Vysotsky? All that was found was from a noble family, and was awarded: Medal "For the Defense of Moscow"; Order of the Red Star, military rank 2 rank, place of service: art. Academy named after Dzerzhinsky.

[beeper]

Dear Serg Koma, about Ivan (only from you I learned this name, thank you for that, because everywhere I found only initials or just the mention of the surname, although the fact that he was Konstantinovich by his father and where he came from also became known from the "Novodvoryansky" sites ) To Konstantinovich Bezruchko-Vysotsky, I only know what is on the Web and has met a little (the same thing!) In many sources regarding the creation of PPS-42 (43).
The writings of the Artillery Academy noted that he did a lot for the development of domestic artillery, and also contributed to the creation of small arms during the war.
Unfortunately, very little is known about this undoubtedly talented artillery designer. As, however, about many others, classified in Soviet times .... and the current creators of weapons, too, do not "shine" too much.

[Serg koma]

Quote: pishchak

Unfortunately, very little is known about this unconditionally talented artillery designer.

Thank you.

[mat-vey]

I apologize - it seems like how not to "finalize", but both designers were ordered to combine the successful developments and from this finalize the machines.

[Evil Booth]

ha ha ha in adequate sources they write that they always did the store exactly and the disk went to the cinema. But the butt seems straight to you and a lot of why you are deeply wrong.

[Plague doctor]

In the cinema and at the parade, the drive, but in real life supposedly a store, I vaguely believe in it, but I would prefer mp 40

[svp67]

Quote: Plague Doctor

It is strange why mass production of extremely uncomfortable PPS disk shops rather than box

Inconvenient, for that very, very roomy. For which he was "loved". So, who is who, and the "infantry" was not if not against him. "Light" "box" was good for those who did not run into the attack or did not fight in the trench, reflecting the enemy's attack.

Quote: Plague Doctor

also a massive bed of wood could also be replaced by a folding butt.

Again, the infantry command really appreciated the wooden butt. in many ways he added chances to the infantryman in hand-to-hand combat.

[Plague doctor]

It’s not convenient to equip a disk for a long time, a disk from one PCP almost never suited to others, a disk is less reliable than a karob shop, it is not convenient to carry, and in hand-to-hand combat a knife is better, although hand-to-hand fighting is a rare case

[svp67]

Quote: Plague Doctor

The drive is not convenient and long to equip

For this, you can shoot for a long time, without reloading.

Quote: Plague Doctor

a drive from one pps almost never suited to others

By 1944, this problem was resolved. Fit.

Quote: Plague Doctor

it is not convenient to carry

For this, it can cover from a flying bullet or a fragment, and it gave greater stability when firing, due to the greater mass

[Plague doctor]

Are you an optimist

[svp67]

Quote: Plague Doctor

Are you an optimist

And without this, in Russia it is IMPOSSIBLE, it’s easier to immediately go and drown.

[bistrov.]

Quote: Plague Doctor

also a massive bed of wood could also be replaced by a folding butt.

The wooden bed is not a drawback, but the merit of a submachine gun, firstly, it is much more convenient than a tin frame: it’s more convenient to aim, secondly, a shackled wooden butt is a good weapon in hand-to-hand combat: you’ll see them in the jaw ....

[Fayter2017]

The TTX comparison table between PPS, PDM and PPSh-2 would not be in the way.

[Okolotochny]

As well as the cost and time (human hours) of manufacture.

[REZMovec]

No matter how much I look at Ulanov and Co., there is always a feeling that a person has delirium in his head. In order not to have to disconnect the store, all that was required was to remove one transverse part of the shoulder rest. This is not a reason to send weapons to the shelf. Most likely, the closed shoulder rest was made specifically on the gift sample. Fi to the Kalashnikov concern for such a weapons historian and writer ...

[beeper]

Vasily Alekseevich Degtyarev was, in general, the gunsmith of the old, pre-revolutionary school, who widely used machine tools for machining parts — turning and milling and a large amount of fitting locksmithing work in assembly — requiring highly qualified workers and material and technical resources.
Here, in this experimental PDM-42, despite the use of stamping, its design habit is clearly traced to precise and milled configurations of parts (cylindrical sections of the main parts and their joining-connection to each other), and not to simpler to manufacture, stamp-welded in a manner predominantly rectangular in cross section.
In fact, this is the same PPD-40, only hastily "modernized" under the obvious influence of the design of the German MP-38 (40)! Even a muzzle brake-compensator was not added, although it would seem easier than shelling pears to weld or rivet a bent strip of metal.
Of course, therefore, PDM_42 lost in the manufacturability of PPS-42 (43), which was much simpler in form and design of its parts.

[thekhohol]

What is the meaning of kin? 8 minutes of chatting for the sake of the phrase "good, but uncomfortably unfolds the butt."

[senima56]

This "expert", Mr. Sobolev, could not properly fold the stock on the PPS! To say that "the inconvenience of controlling a folding stock on the LDM is the reason for not adopting it" is nonsense! Firstly, you can shoot from the LDM and with an unfolded stock. Secondly: it is enough to make an incision on the shoulder rest (as it was done on AKMS) and the problem is solved! It is necessary to drive such "experts"!

[John22]

1. A.I. Sudaev developed his design at the Shchurovo training ground, as was an employee of the landfill. The competition was held there. His prototype was ready for the start of the second stage of the competition from April 17, 1942.
2. The main differences between the samples of Degtyarev, Bezruchko-Vysotsky and Sudaev within the samples are structural differences. The PDM has a cylindrical (tubular) receiver inside which a cylindrical shutter moves (like a piston in a cylinder, which is subject to jamming when dirt gets inside). Under the box, through the wall, is the trigger box.
At PPBV, the receiver is made of a pipe cut in half lengthwise, and the trigger box is made U-shaped, only the P is inverted, i.e. the receiver has a bottom, but no "roof". And the upper ends of the side walls are bent outward in the shape of a cylinder, along which the cylindrical shutter moved. The receiver (semi-tubular) guided the bolt from above and to the sides. But the bolt seemed to wedge it (tried to distribute the walls of the trigger box to the sides. And the most original in the design is the absence of a partition between the receiver and the trigger box.
The PPP has a similar design, only the bends of the upper ends of the side walls of the trigger box are bent to 90 degrees. : left inside the box, and right outside, forming support guides for moving the half-cylinder shutter.
The absence of a partition between the receiver and the release box eliminated the possibility of jamming the shutter when dirt gets inside the PP, which increased the reliability of the PP.
Subsequently A.I. Sudaev applied this solution in the development of the AS-44 (placing the bolt frame on the bends of the receiver in its upper part. And even later, Kalashnikov used this solution.
It is not possible to place the scheme of sections of PP for clarity.

[mat-vey]

Fiercely plus. I tried to print the same thing, but it turned out too many letters as a result frantically confused and freaked out.

[mat-vey]

Quote: pishchak

But the famous Sudaev’s concepts of creating small arms (as well as the mechanism for protecting against double loading of mortars) weapons are not forgotten and forever entered the treasury of Russian and international weapons thought, embodied in experimental and serial models of outstanding Soviet, and now Russian, weapons!

And I would add - brought up and directed the design idea of ​​M.T. Kalashnikov.

[solovald]

In my opinion, the PDM looks a lot more aesthetically pleasing than the Sudaev and Shpagin submachine guns. The problem of the folding butt is solved quite simply.

[svp67]

Quote: solovald

In my opinion, the PDM looks a lot more aesthetically pleasing than the Sudaev and Shpagin submachine guns.

And there is no comparison with the "Thompson", its mahogany in the stock and butt, and the general decoration ... For the war, this is not the main thing

Quote: solovald

The problem of the folding butt is solved quite simply.

Yes, more than. It was enough to slightly increase the folding frame of the butt plate and that's it