Don Luis de Cordoba and Cordoba, or a robbery on 1,5 million pounds

69
Great Britain has existed de jure for more than two centuries, and de facto, in the format of the English state - even more so. And throughout their stories one trait is observed, which is characteristic, perhaps, for all nations and states of the world, but it is most clearly manifested in the inhabitants of Misty Albion: they really do not like to remember their own punctures. Even if they remember it, it is only within the framework of glorifying their positive qualities, as in the case of Bismarck: the enemy was dangerous and powerful, and therefore it was not a sin to lose such a Huda in battle, because in the end “ Bismarck "they are utopias. But they don’t like punctures that cannot be sweetened in any way. Especially that small puncture, when the seventy-year-old grandfather, a thunderstorm seignior of the French city of Brest, led away from under the nose of the Royal fleet a whole convoy with a bunch of government property, including one and a half million pounds of gold and silver ....





Youth


Our hero was born by the name of Louis in 1706 in a very simple family with short surnames and a modest origin. His father's name was Juan de Cordoba Lasso de la Vega and Puente Verastegui, he was a knight of the Order of Calatrava and came from a very old surname, albeit untitled. The young Luis mother was his father a close relative, daughter of the 1 marquise Vado del Maestre, and her name was Clemensia de Cordoba Lasso de la Vega and Ventimiglia. On the father’s side, Louis’s ancestors were sailors, and he himself was no exception to the rule - in 11 years, having first come aboard his father’s ship, by 13 years he had already made two trips to America and felt at home at sea.

By 1721, he was already a midshipman; in 1723 he became midshipman of a frigate (alferez de fragata). Both in training and in battle, he showed himself courageously, skillfully, and sometimes, in a fair wind - also initiatively, thanks to which the young man quickly began to move up the career ladder and earned the special attention of King Felipe V. In 1730, Cordoba became one of elected nobles who were supposed to accompany the infante Carlos de Bourbon (future Carlos III), and became, if not his friend, then certainly a good acquaintance, which later came in handy during the service. In 1731, Louis already bears the rank of midshipman of the ship (alferez de navio), and in 1732 - lieutenant of the frigate (teniente de fragata), participating in the siege of Oran and the capture of Naples and Sicily in the turbulent years when the first Spanish Bourbons returned the recently lost lands in Italy into the crown of the state.

By the 1740 year, Cordoba already bears the title of captain of a frigate (capitan de fragata), commands his frigate and fights with the Berber corsairs, and in 1747, being the captain of the ship (capitan de navio) and standing on the bridge of the 60-gun “America”, he participates in the legendary for Spain at that time, the battle between two Spanish battleships ("America" ​​and "Dragon", the general command of Pedro Fitz-James Stuart, both 60 guns) and two Algerian (60 and 54 guns). In total, the battle took about 30 hours for four days, after which the Algerians surrendered. Fifty Christian captives were released, Cordoba was made a knight of the Order of Calatrava as a reward.

After that, Luis de Cordoba and Cordoba moves to the western direction, and he is entrusted with an important task - the fight against smuggling in the West Indies, and in case of war with the British, also counteracting it. Apparently, he did not do very well with the second, but in the first he achieved significant success, smuggling through Cartagena de Indias was practically stopped. Following this, he became the commander of the colonial squadron at 9 for many years - from 1765 to 1774 and performs various tasks in the waters of North and South America. Finally, he was promoted to the rank of lieutenant general when he was already 68 years old. It seemed that the old man’s career was going to sunset - but it wasn’t there ...

Case at Cape Santa Maria


In 1775, the war for the independence of the Thirteen Colonies from Great Britain began, and Spain and France, of course, did not miss the opportunity to strike at the eternal enemy at such an uncomfortable moment for him. After resolving their questions and waiting for the British to get bogged down in the conflict, the allies declared war on the British in 1779 and launched an offensive on all fronts. At sea, however, at first it turned out to be a complete zilch - gathering enormous forces on land and at sea, which became known as the Other Armada, the Allies received tremendous superiority, including at sea (66 battleships versus 38 English). However, two fossils were appointed to command the single fleet - the 73-year-old Cordoba under the supervision of the 69-year-old Frenchman, Count d'Orville. With the same success, one could dig out the ashes of Alvaro de Bazana and put it on the bridge of Santisima Trinidad .... And instead of active, decisive, daring actions, timid campaigns came out, it was not clear where and why.

Time passed, and the greatest success was the capture of the ship “Ardent” and a small luger, which did not go into any gate with respect to the efforts expended. Having such a clear superiority at sea, the Allies even managed to defend the merchant convoys from the English colonies, which was worthy of a separate sarcastic ovation in those conditions. The Allied fleet got into repair after four months of “active” actions, and the enterprise, in fact, was completed. There are legends about the reasons for these modest results. Luis de Cordoba, of course, blamed everything on his boss, Count d'Orville, and the youngest flagship of Cordoba, José de Masarredo, was not enthusiastic about both old men. However, despite the modesty of real achievements, the Spanish admiral earned praise from the French Louis XVI, who sent him a box richly decorated with jewelry, with the inscription "From Louis to Louis."

The seat in Brest, while the ships of the Allied fleet were being repaired, was delayed, and even the highest ranks were already concerned about this. Floridablanca, Secretary of State of Spain, wrote in 1780 that while Cordoba is based in Brest, local senorites are in great danger, hinting that there is still plenty of gunpowder in the flocks of the 73-year-old man. However, there were positive results - the French Admiral Guichen drew attention to how the Spaniards are attentive to weather warnings, and how accurately they predict the onset of storms at sea. The reason was the usual barometer, which the Armada has long been actively and universally used, and which was absent on French ships. Cordoba shared such barometers with an ally, after which they found distribution on all French warships. In the end, in the 1780 year, it was decided to start to nightmare the supply routes between Great Britain and America, for which a solid fleet was allocated, consisting of 36 battleships (27 Spanish and 9 French) under the single command of the Spaniards. Just at that time, a large convoy was gathering in the UK to transport strategically important cargoes and replenishment to America, where some goods, materials and money were sorely lacking.

The expedition was planned, to put it mildly, through the sleeves - having decided that these continental sissies were incapable of anything, the British insured all merchant ships in full, and allocated for the protection of 60 armed transports (including 5 large East Indians) the entire 1 battleship and 2 frigate led by Captain John Moutrei. The Canal fleet escorted this convoy literally “to the gates” of Britain, not even diving into the Bay of Biscay, but then the ships' path lies along the coast of Portugal, following the winds and currents, and - straight to America. The route ran along the Iberian Peninsula and further to the Azores. On one of them there was Cape Santa Maria, next to which the convoy was to pass at full speed at night. The British knew that the coast of friendly Portugal would be nearby, that there would be a long hassle ahead of them in the ocean, that the Spaniards and the French could organize a light raid on the convoy if they found it, and therefore all the "merchants" went right behind the navigation lights of the Ramillis battleship ". But what they didn’t know was that the large forces of the Allied fleet (36 battleships!) Were on the open sea, hunting convoys, and, most importantly, they would be on that very night at Cape Santa Maria ... .


Santisima Trinidad in Cadiz


Luis de Cordoba and Cordoba established effective reconnaissance, and he learned in advance from a large convoy from the patrol frigate. The opinions of the officers subordinate to him were divided - Cordoba himself thought that this was the linear fleet of the Metropolis, and intended to act with all caution, and Masarredo, on the contrary, was sure that the Channel Fleet would not leave his native waters, and that all these were merchant ships. In the end, Cordob managed to dodge the attack, but further descriptions of what happened are very different. According to the first version, which is very boring in content, the Spaniards and the French, using the tailwind, fell in broad daylight on the convoy, drove off the weak guards, and chased the British merchants throughout the district until the next morning.

The second version is much more interesting, although it is much less common. According to intelligence, realizing where the squadron's military guard is located, and learning that it was far away from the convoy itself, in the twilight of Cordoba, on its Santisima Trinidad, hung navigation lights, while the rest extinguished them. As soon as the sun went down over the horizon, Santisima began to draw closer to the convoy, and in the dark they mistook her for Ramillis, getting into her wake and walking that way all night. Only five "merchants" did not see the lights of the Spanish flagship, and followed the lights of the British ship that were better visible from their place. And in the morning, as soon as it began to dawn, something began that very much resembled a pack of foxes caught in a poultry farm: the British unexpectedly found themselves in tight formation with the Spanish-French fleet, which immediately began their quick capture and compulsion to surrender. Only three guard ships escaped, led by John Moutrei, who decided not to heroize himself with his small forces, but five ships, which at night mated to his Ramillis. The victory was complete, and, more importantly, bloodless.

When calculating the trophies, the officials of Spanish and French nationality were clearly shaking hands. In addition to 55 ships, of which 5 were large East Indians, production at Cape Santa Maria amounted to:

- 3144 prisoners, including the entire personnel of the 90 infantry regiment;
- 80 thousand muskets for colonial troops;
- 3 thousand barrels of gunpowder;
- A complete set of supplies (uniforms, equipment, tents, etc.) for 12 infantry regiments;
- 1,5 million pounds sterling silver and gold, including 1 million in gold bars;
- materials and components for the repair of the colonial squadrons of the Royal Navy;

Of the 36 merchant ships that the Spaniards got after the division of the trophies, 32 were later converted into frigates and patrol ships, which simply indecently raised the strength of the cruising armada. Of the 1,5 million pounds, the Spaniards took about a million, which amounted to approximately 40 million reais. Of these, 6 millions were distributed to ship crews, and a little less than 34 millions went to the royal treasury, which amounted to the approximate total cost of building ten 74-gun battleships. With the prisoners, among whom were members of the families of the British military, the Spaniards behaved extremely respectfully and carefully, as the norms of the "Gallant Age" demanded.

Great Britain at once collapsed into a severe crisis. The army in the colonies lost many supplies critical to it, resulting in a series of defeats. Not having received the necessary materials and components for repair, the British colonial squadrons were temporarily paralyzed, which turned into the surrender of the Cornwallis army in Yorktown. The state lost one and a half million pounds of money, which was an indecently large sum. Not only that - insurance companies that so easily insured convoy ships before leaving, barely scrapped funds for payments, many of them went bankrupt. Rates on military insurance skyrocketed, and the government crisis, in addition to everything else, strengthened in the country. The stock exchange closed and did not work for several weeks. As if deciding to “finish off” the British, nature sent storms to the usual trade routes to America, as a result of which a large number of merchant ships perished in a year.

In terms of the magnitude of the consequences, the defeat of the convoy at Cape Santa Maria surpassed everything that the British had experienced at that time, and that they had yet to survive, including the defeat of the convoy PQ-17. And, of course, a catastrophe of this magnitude could not but affect the outcome of the war in America - so a Spanish admiral was one of the creators of US independence. As for the fate of Moutrei, who left without a fight, he was harsher than he should have been, but softer than he could have been, given under pressure from the merchants to the tribunal and dismissed from service, although he had no way to save the convoy. Nevertheless, a year later he returned to service, and later remained at it until his death. What is interesting - among his friends, among others, was a certain Horatio Nelson ....

Senile care


After such a victory, Luis de Cordoba and Cordoba for some time even more perked up, and began to look for new reasons to make a feat both in Brest with local seigneurs and at sea. Without burdening himself with the French command and working perfectly with his younger flagship Masarreda, he continued to act on British communications. In 1781, a large British convoy was again captured, consisting of 24 West Indian merchant ships, sailing from colonies with a cargo of various goods. The only relief for the British was that the ships were not 55, and they did not carry one and a half million pounds in precious metals. At this time, his squadron becomes a place where naval science is developing rapidly - under his leadership Masarredo and Escagno build and test their theories (separate articles will be devoted to both), if Cordoba himself does not participate in their theoretical research, then at least not bothers them. In the end, the Spanish naval theory, probably composed by some of its best commanders, is born in raids on the Canal.

In 1782, Spanish ships under the command of Cordoba left Brest and set off for the Gulf of Algeciras, where the Great Siege of Gibraltar has been going for a year. A general assault was being prepared there, and the presence of the Armada’s linear fleet nearby was clearly not superfluous. However, the general assault on the fortress failed, no technical tricks of the French engineers were able to provide sufficient survivability of the floating batteries, on which the main stake was made. After this, the blockade continued, but its effectiveness was very conditional - soon the British Admiral Howe led a large convoy to Gibraltar, led by a squadron of 34 battleships. It was then that Cordoba’s entire enthusiasm began to disappear - his indecisive actions did not allow to intercept Admiral Howe’s convoy on the way to Gibraltar, and only on the way back, at Cape Espartel, the two fleets met each other. The Spaniards had an advantage in the number of ships (46 pieces), but the number of weapons was equal. This time, Masarrede was not able to sufficiently stir up his boss, and therefore the battle was hesitant and ended almost to no avail. Even the losses were insignificant - with a huge number of ships only one and a half hundred dead and five hundred wounded on both sides.

In January 1783, a peace treaty was signed, and the war ended. Luis de Cordoba and Cordoba immediately withdrew from direct service in the active fleet. The king granted him honor and the post of Director General of Armada, although after the battle Espartel had a number of questions for him from junior officers who believed that he was excessively passive and slow, and if it weren’t for that, the British would have been broken by the first number. As CEO, in 1786, he solemnly laid the foundation stone for the future Pantheon of Outstanding Sailors in San Fernando. In this position, Louis remained until the 1796 year, when he, having lived a long 90-year life, died. He got into the Pantheon laid by him only in the 1870 year.

Luis de Cordoba and Cordoba was married to Maria Andrea de Romay, had a son, Antonio de Cordoba and Romay, who followed in his father's footsteps, enlisted in the Armada, and died in 1786 with the rank of foreman. The town of Cordoba in Alaska, founded in the XVIII century by the researcher Salvador Fidalgo, is named after him. The whole history of the life and service of this person can serve as a clear illustration of several aspects of human activity. Brave, skillful and successful in his youth, Cordoba kept his nature alive for a long time, but even with this in mind, demanding too much from the 73-year-old man was not only excessive, but also stupid. Yes, it was enough for some time for active military operations (at least he was more active than the French), but in the end he nevertheless turned into an old man not only in body but also in mind, which was clearly demonstrated by the battle at Cape Espartel. Despite all this, Luis de Cordoba and Cordoba can be called an outstanding person, and quite a successful commander of the Armada, who had both great victories and missed opportunities.

To be continued ....
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    1. +7
      23 August 2019 18: 30
      +++ Extremely interesting, and the (concise) presentation style is beyond praise.
      1. +9
        23 August 2019 18: 35
        Thank you hi In general, it’s difficult to adhere to the compressed style, because it carries the details of two novels, but I really hold back laughing
        1. +5
          23 August 2019 18: 39
          it’s difficult to adhere to the compressed style ...

          I know (you), sung and noted laughing In addition, here (as the senior sailor used to say) "Brevity is the mother of talent, but the mother-in-law of the fee"))) But several smaller publications are better than one too large (hard to read).
          1. +7
            23 August 2019 18: 44
            Quote: anzar
            But better are a few smaller publications than one that is too large (hard to read).

            Especially taking into account the fact that such publications are planned for a total of 20 pieces only about Armada officers ... laughing
            1. +7
              23 August 2019 18: 49
              20 pieces only about Armada officers ..

              Very good, and then with the filing of pirated novels and Hollywood in the mass consciousness sp. fleet 16-18th century look so stupid which rob everyone and sundry.
              1. +5
                23 August 2019 18: 52
                Well, I’ll basically have it at the end of the 18th-19th centuries, I don’t see the point of sanctifying before - the overwhelming majority of blog entries on this subject by Makhov are excellent, and they are excellent. There are statistics there, as the Spaniards were robbed, and the Spaniards in response a little less robbed the rest laughing
                1. +3
                  23 August 2019 18: 54
                  the overwhelming majority of blog entries on this subject by Makhov ..

                  Did not read how to find? (when time eats))
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                2. +2
                  23 August 2019 19: 17
                  The feast continues! We, mice, demand the continuation of the banquet of sweets (cheese !!!!!), and not some cacti there! Thank you, Artyom, and 7 feet under the keel!
                  PySy. And how and what did Armada officers learn? Did they have their own marine corps?
                  1. +1
                    23 August 2019 19: 22
                    I join! The question is truly interesting! good
                  2. +4
                    23 August 2019 19: 29
                    Quote: Solo2503
                    The feast continues! We, mice, demand the continuation of the banquet of sweets (cheese !!!!!), and not some cacti there!

                    There will be sweets hi True, with a break - tomorrow or the day after tomorrow there is one more article, and I have not yet written the next ones, because we need to deal with our main topic before proceeding further with the "accompanying materials".
                    Quote: Solo2503
                    And how and what did Armada officers learn? Did they have their own marine corps?

                    In Spain, and indeed in many countries of Western Europe, there was a distinct system of training personnel. If we simplify the structure and omit 100500 of the changes that the education system has undergone over time, the training of officers was based on the study of individual theoretical subjects in civilian universities or military schools (escuelos), after which they took the remaining training course directly in the fleet as midshipmen . At the same time, Churruka, for example, continued to undergo training even at the time when he had already become an officer. The main naval university in Spain, Escuela Naval Militar, was founded in 1717, but was not in fact the only one of its kind, but rather elite, because in parallel there were escuelos in Ferrol, Cartagena, etc. By our standards, this is all terribly decentralized, chaotic and disordered, but in fact it was quite effective, including because officers were trained not only in basic subjects, but also in many auxiliary subjects, which, in essence, made them good scientists and researchers in the future.
                    1. +2
                      23 August 2019 19: 36
                      Artyom! And I recently read an article about Field Marshal Blucher, the hero of Waterloo (although, as usual, the Angles attributed all laurels to Wellington), so he reacted very negatively to the practice of purchasing officer patents in England. How do you think this practice was possible in Spain?
                      1. +2
                        23 August 2019 19: 48
                        Quote: Phil77
                        Do you think such a practice was possible in Spain?

                        Yes, even if there is no de jure - corruption has always existed in all countries, you could buy a rank with a bribe laughing It is another matter whether such a practice was officially approved or not. And, at the expense of Spain, there is, alas, no information - on the one hand, there is not a single mention, even close, of similar practice in Real Ejercito, on the other hand, the army of Spain of the 18th century was built in the image of the French, and there the purchase of patents existed in the infantry until the 1758 year, and in the cavalry - until the Revolution. So I am at a loss to give a concrete answer to this question, but I myself am inclined to believe that in Spain these matters were the same as in Prussia with Russia, at least towards the end of the 18th century.
    2. +2
      23 August 2019 19: 08
      Plus! Oh yes, well done this Cordoba! Dashing English, drove a dashing sailor! By the way, about * Bismarck *, and I would add the death of * Titanic *, the sailors of the German shipping companies at that time said that they were German on the ship that night the captain and the German team would not have had this disaster! Source: M. Gubachek * Titanic *! Artyom thanks!
    3. +8
      23 August 2019 19: 38
      Case at Cape Santa Maria
      In order to restore a little historical justice, it is necessary to introduce another person who has made a very significant contribution to the success of the Spaniards.

      The portrait of Francisco Goya depicts José Monino y Redondo Count of Floridablanca, a Spanish statesman. At the time of the "affair at Cape Santa Maria", he was the first secretary of state of Spain (from 1714 to 1833 that was the name of the foreign minister in Spain. He not only described in a letter to Count Aranda the love affairs of Cordoba.
      It was his branched London espionage network that informed the count a few weeks before the release of the preparation of the convoy, its composition, and it was from him that the elderly womanizer received orders to go to sea to intercept the convoy.
      1. +2
        23 August 2019 19: 41
        Skillful work with personnel? hi
        1. +5
          23 August 2019 19: 43
          The man was obviously in his place.
          1. +3
            23 August 2019 19: 44
            Yes, more categorically, it’s on his own.
          2. +4
            23 August 2019 19: 56
            At that moment, yes. In general - it's hard to say. Given that the Carlist Wars happened largely due to this man ....
      2. +4
        23 August 2019 19: 54
        And again - thank you for the addition hi However, there are some nuances here - as far as I understand, the fleet was still hanging out on communications without reconnaissance, since after the failures of the close blockade of the "Other Armada", after repairing the ships and putting things in order, they decided to start a distant blockade. In this case, information about the convoy rather gave a specific target designation where and when to wait for the convoy. But this is a moot point - as I understand it, after the failure of the "Other Armada" the allies with the fleet had a mess and proceedings, despite the highest awards, therefore more accurate information about all the activities of the allied forces in 1780 is needed. It may well be that I am still wrong.
        1. +4
          23 August 2019 20: 00
          I found this moment in Cf. Martínez-Valverde y Martínez, Carlos. Enciclopedia General del Mar. Barcelona, ​​Ediciones Garriga, 1957, or rather in the biography of Cordoba, where this book is referenced.
    4. +3
      23 August 2019 19: 56
      And throughout their history, there has been one feature that is characteristic, perhaps, for all nations and states of the world, but is most clearly manifested in the inhabitants of Misty Albion: they really do not like to remember their own punctures.
      I would not say that the British are in the lead among other nations in dislike of their own punctures. In any case, the "puncture" at Cape Santa Maria cannot be said for sure, because a reminder of it is in the country's main naval museum - the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich. As a picture.

      The XNUMXth century watercolor, which depicts just that ill-fated convoy.
      1. +5
        23 August 2019 19: 59
        They and about other not quite victorious battles have pictures. But these are pictures, but mention of the events themselves can be met quite rarely. To the extent that we now believe that the British robbed the Spanish colonies and shipping for free, and the Spaniards did not answer them in any way, acting as whipping boys. Although there is everything, to put it mildly, not so, what an example is the case at Cape Santa Maria.
        1. +4
          23 August 2019 20: 17
          I have not specifically studied this issue, but an extensive article is devoted to the discussed event on the British wiki. And on British historical sites everything is described in detail. For example, https://www.revolutionary-war-and-beyond.com/action-of-9-august-1780.html.
          And the passage with British lanterns is precisely the most detailed on their sites and is described. Spaniards - and even less so.
          1. +5
            23 August 2019 20: 23
            You can talk about this subject forever, but I don’t think it’s necessary smile I, and not only me, often came across such that the British seem to be not hiding it, there is information, sometimes very detailed .... But here with its fame and recognition both here and abroad are problems , most of it is only in the targeted search. Especially this, or just such a mentality - did not conduct research. In this regard, it’s easier for us - unpleasant and controversial moments are recalled and discussed much more often. However, sometimes they come to the point that it would be better if it were like with the British ... Or all this is just my subjective perception - I will not exclude request
    5. +3
      23 August 2019 21: 20
      Cool! good Here is a holiday on our street! Old man Cordoba broke in the most I can not "mistress of the seas"! The most famous pirates never dreamed of this, not to mention the consequences. In general, the Americans would not hurt to erect a monument to Cordoba, that way in an embrace with Washington or Jefferson, it would be fair. smile
      Thank you, Artyom, I liked this article the most, probably because the Englishmen were still hacked, and I am somehow not very good at them. (FROM) hi
      1. +1
        23 August 2019 21: 45
        But what about the Beatles?!? crying
        1. +1
          23 August 2019 21: 53
          Buddy hi , I grew up on Elvis Presley and Harry Belafonte, the Beatles didn't bother me a little, and the British have shitty weapons. laughing
          1. +2
            23 August 2019 22: 00
            Yes, the British have weapons
            Somehow you were not lucky with the weapon that only horseradish came across.
            1. +1
              23 August 2019 22: 11
              There was nothing to compare not only in museums, but also at the shooting range.
              And how do you like this option: British special forces during raids on the rear of the Iraqis ("Desert Storm"), because of unreliability, replaced their L85A1 with American M-4. This is how unreliable their rifle should be, if it was replaced by (M-4), which itself has never been particularly reliable.
              And their pistols are bad, and they themselves ... laughing
              1. +3
                23 August 2019 22: 44
                The point here is not a bad rifle, but the one who adopted a completely new raw model and collected complaints about this sample for almost twenty years, doing nothing to eliminate them. Nevertheless, no matter how bad this rifle is, they have not been replaced by AKM.
                But their hunting weapons and especially not much to compare. It is the best.
                1. +3
                  24 August 2019 01: 30
                  Hunting is considered the best, but this only applies to systems with a classic scheme, and they pay there mainly for the brand and decoration. As, for example, the same "Holland-Holland" - only the quality of steel, finish and name. For hunting, I would prefer a Browning semi-automatic, but rather our Saiga, well, if not to show off.
                  As for the armament of the British Army by the Kalashnikovs, this is a brilliant idea. He introduced these guys in red uniforms and bear caps, with AKM at a post near the Royal Palace, and it immediately became fun.
                  But seriously, their Erinis in Iraq is working with AKM, with Bulgarian or Yugoslav clones.
                  1. +3
                    24 August 2019 01: 39
                    I would prefer a Browning semiautomatic device for hunting, but rather our Saiga, well, if not to show off.
                    If not to show off, then for any hunting in the territory of the former USSR and in a very large territory outside it, a classic double-barreled shotgun is enough.
                    Saiga is not a hunting weapon at all.
                    1. +2
                      24 August 2019 01: 49
                      I have BM-16 as my "personal weapon". Choke-pay, chrome-plated barrels, walnut stock, "tarnished" locks with engraving - a piece of work of the sixties and still like new. The fight is great. I do not boast "because it is mine", the gun is actually excellent, and what they offered me in return, and even with a surcharge.
                      And as for the Saiga, you are in vain, my son just has a 20-gauge Saiga and I really liked it, although I consider the 12th for her to be "architectural excess". Yes, we, in general, are not hunters, so, lovers of shooting and keeping ourselves in shape.
                      1. +3
                        24 August 2019 01: 54
                        In this design, the gun is rare and good. True, I always preferred the 12th caliber.
                        And I do not perceive "fenced" versions of weapons. So, "shooters".
                        But here everyone has their own perception
                        1. +3
                          24 August 2019 01: 59
                          I do not like this caliber because of the recoil, I am more comfortable with the sixteenth. And if you shoot a bird, then the caliber is only a component, basically everything depends on the shooter's skills and the quality of his weapon. But that's my personal opinion.
                        2. +3
                          24 August 2019 02: 06
                          I loaded cartridges with "Polar Bear" on a bird where there is a lot of shooting. It gives a comfortable feel. And on other hunts they don't shoot a lot. Is that the "hunters" for empty bottles.
                        3. +3
                          24 August 2019 02: 51
                          In the absence of a radius of 20 km. a decent shooting range has to shoot, except for targets, and plastic bottles of water. Then everything is in the trash, of course, since it is in the neighboring village.
                  2. +3
                    24 August 2019 01: 49
                    As for Erinis, it has almost 20 local employees in Iraq. How else to arm them? Naturally, their usual AKM
                    1. +3
                      24 August 2019 01: 55
                      No, I had in mind precisely the whites, commanders, and instructors. It’s true that you don’t recognize the AK right there, you’ve got so much hung on it only if you look at the store right away. And, which is characteristic, there is a NATO cartridge, and under our seven.
                      1. +3
                        24 August 2019 02: 01
                        The Bulgarian ARSENAL has been doing them for a long time in these calibers. When he lived in Bulgaria, he shot. Good stuff. For private companies, this is normal. They have the criterion of price / quality in the first place.
                        1. +3
                          24 August 2019 02: 47
                          Yes, I heard that the Bulgarian clones go after our AK in the first place, but I have not tried them myself.
          2. +1
            23 August 2019 22: 11
            What even the Transcaucasian hit does not catch ?!
            "Let it Be, let it be
            Gogi Quarter Lettby
            Let it be, lettby
            Gogi kvarella, assa !!!! "
            1. +1
              23 August 2019 22: 13
              Anton, send a "sound letter" laughing .
              1. +2
                23 August 2019 22: 25
                Haha! Haha! I’ll send it, and you will set the sound to the quadric signal, the number of cardiovascular diseases in the Ryazan outback will increase sharply.
                1. +2
                  23 August 2019 22: 48
                  That's right, the audience here is more and more good, but the good needs to be protected. And I practically do not use the signal, I’m screaming more and more - the client is blown off the road by a fly. This is for them, Madame, more and more from addiction to phones. Well, when they trynd along the pipe, they don’t see or hear anything around. And here, you crawl on tiptoe behind, and how you bark ... The effect is awesome! laughing
                  1. +2
                    23 August 2019 22: 56
                    Alas, it doesn’t work in megacities ....
                    1. +2
                      23 August 2019 23: 00
                      Sorry. Therefore, I do not live in Moscow. And the entertainment is good! wink
                      1. +2
                        23 August 2019 23: 07
                        "Here on the paths different stories meet,
                        And fantasies run on thin legs "(c)
                        1. +2
                          23 August 2019 23: 10
                          The legs are very different, some of them at least where. smile Happily, Anton, they’ll break both of them for a fake. hi
                        2. +1
                          23 August 2019 23: 31
                          This is not a fake, this is a flood, I have been going under this article for a long time with Sergey - Corsair4. Well, they’ll break it, well, they’ll ban that, after that, the bailiffs will knock on the door? Vaughn, Vlad, was banned out of the blue.
                        3. -1
                          24 August 2019 00: 14
                          I will be bored in my village. And Vlad was banned for a long time, can you contact me in PM?
                        4. -1
                          24 August 2019 09: 56
                          Greetings! He wrote about the * term * of two weeks. Alas! * Without him, everything is not so *.
                        5. 0
                          24 August 2019 21: 11
                          Yes. All this is disgusting. Here I met frank rudeness and an outspoken obscenity (not in my address), and nothing, they live for themselves and peep happily. Everything, probably, depends on the personal state of the one who tosses these bans. With women, this is more problematic. Physiology. request
        2. +1
          24 August 2019 09: 19
          * The Beatles * is certainly not for everyone (well, not for everyone!) But Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle! And the adventures of Brigadier Gerard, ooh! I love it! As I read it in childhood and still re-read it sometimes.
      2. +4
        23 August 2019 21: 47
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Old man Cordoba broke into the most I can not "mistress of the seas"!

        In fairness - more likely Masarredo than Cordoba, this old man was active only with the Brest lords. Without Masarredo, another question is whether Cordoba would have achieved something - although in his youth he clearly knew how and loved to overcome ....
        Quote: Sea Cat
        In general, it would not hurt the Americans to erect a monument to Cordoba, sort of in an embrace with Washington or Jefferson, it would be fair.

        I don’t know how true the information is - it may very well be a jingoistic patriotic myth, but more than once I came across information that the Americans were much more grateful to the Spaniards than the French for their support in the war, because this support was more effective. Here, only one thing near Cape Santa Maria actually paralyzed the British fleet in the colonies and deprived the colonial army of reinforcements. I don’t even know which way to think ...
        1. +3
          23 August 2019 21: 57
          Then an article about Masarredo, pliz, otherwise it somehow unfairly turns out. Although it is flattering for Cordoba that people of my age are capable of something. I mean adventures of senorites. wink
          1. +4
            23 August 2019 22: 13
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Then an article about Masarredo, pliz, otherwise it somehow unfairly turns out.

            Just next in line, tomorrow, I think, will be on the main hi In general, I thought about Masarredo after Churruka’s writing, but something didn’t work out somehow.
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Although it is flattering for Cordoba that people of my age are capable of something. I mean adventures of senorites.

            The fact that he was the fruit of a closely related marriage adds a special "acuity" to Cordoba's adventures, and, as far as I can tell, this was in the order of things for Cordoba. Usually, in such cases, one way or another, degeneration begins to manifest itself - but come on! Yes, so that everyone was so excited at 70 years old, and lived to 90, like this hot Andalusian guy!
            1. +2
              23 August 2019 22: 47
              There is a good joke.
              A client comes to the institution. In the "number", the "employee" is sent to him. After a while she runs out screaming: "Horror, horror !!!". The second is sent, the same thing. Third-fourth-fifth ... with the same result. There is a rule: when the institution runs out of resources, "maman" comes out to the "guests". And so it happened. After some time, the tousled and rumpled mistress, leaving the "number" says:
              "Well, yes! Well, horror! ... But not" horror-horror "!!!!
              PS This is how legends are born laughing
        2. 0
          23 August 2019 22: 21
          True, the feeling of gratitude did not last long and at the end of the next century, the United States kicked Spain from Cuba in the ass. selected Puerto Rico, Guam and other islands under its sovereignty in the West Indies, practically selected the Philippine Islands for twenty million dollars.
          Spain had to sell the islands in the Pacific Ocean to Germany, since there was no way to protect them.
          And the American media at this moment, so they generally "thanked". One feint of Hirst with a letter is worth something.
          So gratitude in politics is extremely extensible.
          1. +2
            23 August 2019 22: 24
            So it was already at the end of the next century! Already, Spain is not the same, and the USA is different .... And gratitude for something does not at all mean a friendly attitude in future years. It was at that time that they were grateful, as soon as the war had just ended, and after 10 years later - the affairs of bygone days, the tradition of ancient times ...
            1. +3
              23 August 2019 22: 46
              "This is a real politician" - Franz Lefort, "Peter's youth". Remember?
              1. +5
                23 August 2019 22: 47
                I remember) The usual pragmatic policy. Pragmatism is generally a useful thing when it comes to the state, that's just not imported very often, alas ...
                1. +1
                  23 August 2019 22: 55
                  Artyom, where to find your alternatives?
                  1. +2
                    23 August 2019 22: 58
                    Sent a link in PM.
              2. 0
                24 August 2019 19: 25
                Quote: Solo2503
                "This is a real politician" - Franz Lefort, "Peter's youth". Remember?

                in the description of Louis Petru before the trip to Europe (and generally complete domination) or in Europe when they drank double standards?
                No, for them we are a small politician, one might say - no politician ...
            2. +1
              24 August 2019 09: 59
              Well, you can not go so far. The USA did not hesitate to squeeze Florida from the Spaniards at the time of their problems with the colonies. Finished in 1819, but started much earlier. And in Mexico they helped, and obviously not in Spain.
    6. 0
      24 August 2019 19: 28
      We completely dominate the view that having defeated the Invincible Armada (and having defeated it, although in reality it was not so), England threw Spain down and the Spaniards did not show themselves anywhere else, but only England.
      But in fact, having lost many ships, not from the British, but from storms and bypassing the WB, the Spaniards began to recover and, judging even by this case, they restored quite well.
      Although the economic crisis of production (cheap gold of the colonies undermined the industry of the metropolis — and the debts of the rulers to everyone and everything became unbearable) was already in full swing.
      And the Spaniards are far from being whipping boys ..
      No wonder they were the most powerful country in their time.
    7. +1
      26 August 2019 11: 17
      Quote: arturpraetor
      but I really hold back

      which is not always possible - sometimes the syllable resembles Dumas. laughing
    8. 0
      26 September 2019 20: 44
      Thanks. It was interesting to read.

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