Military Review

1941 year. German command against Soviet intelligence

64
Dedicated to Victoria. The person who pushed the author to search for materials about the beginning of the war


In the previous installment, we started exploring intelligence materials (Goals Difference) on the grouping of the enemy, concentrated against the troops of the Zapovo. Therefore, we first finish our discussion of this topic. In accordance with the RM of the Reconnaissance Directorate of the General Staff of the spacecraft, from the middle of May until the outbreak of the war, there was no increase in the German group against the ZAPOVO. In June, echelons and convoys of troops and equipment were moving somewhere intensively, but the number of divisions remained unchanged against PribOVO, KOVO, OdVO, and ZAPOVO. Let's try to figure it out.



Comparison of data on the deployment of German troops on May 31 and June 21


In the previous part, we examined the map of the ZAPOVO headquarters with the situation of the location of German troops as of 21.6.41. Previously, we examined a similar map of the PribOVO headquarters with the situation on June 21. A comparison of the data on the map with the information from the intelligence report of the headquarters of PribOVO from 18.6.41 was carried out. Readers could verify that the information given in both documents coincided.

There are no RM ZapOV headquarters publicly available on the Internet for free, similar to the detailed summary of PribOV headquarters indicated. Therefore, we compare the data on the map with the data on the deployment of German troops as of June 1.
Data on the deployment of German troops as of June 1 was first summarized in the intelligence report of the General Staff Intelligence Directorate on May 31.5.41, 5. This information was given in more detail in the appendix to Summary No. 15 (for the West) issued by the Intelligence Directorate on June XNUMX. The figures below show data from the above summary in the ZAPOVO's area of ​​responsibility. The following abbreviations were used in the figures: AK - army corps, ap (tap) - artillery regiment (heavy artillery regiment), zenap - anti-aircraft artillery regiment, cd (kp) - cavalry division (regiment), md (mp) - motorized division (regiment), pa (pp) - infantry division (regiment), td (tp) - tank division (regiment).

One of the enemy’s farthest from the border was in the Lodz region. In the summary of the General Staff Intelligence Directorate of 31.5.41, it was noted that “The Germans set about creating operational depth, concentrating ... west of the одód линии line, Krakow - 6-8 divisions”. In June, information about this grouping is no longer found. However, an increase in the groupings of German divisions against the troops of PribOVO, ZAPOVO and KOVO from the beginning of May to the middle of May of the 1941 year and until the outbreak of war did not occur. Consequently, the group in the Lodz region should have remained in place. If she was there at all ...



The group in the Bartenstein, Allenstein, and Bischofsburg districts was in the disputed area of ​​responsibility of ZAPOVO and PribOVO. A small part of the troops during movements was tracked by the intelligence of PribOVO. An even smaller part "settled" in East Prussia.



In the following figures, instead of indicating the location of many military units and some divisions, the text will often be enough: "no data". Do not let this phrase bother you, since towards the end of the part you will come to a shocking conclusion ...













It can be seen from the figures that, according to intelligence, many enemy troops were in places that were noted in the 31.5.41 intelligence report. The author will take the liberty of declaring that this is an overwhelming number of troops, which you will soon see for yourself.

In other words, three weeks before the war, German units and divisions did not move as often as indicated in the Republic of Moldova. And again, there are no discovered headquarters of army groups and tank groups, tank and motorized troops! About these formations we will consider the materials in the next part ...

Another way to gather intelligence


In the last part, we learned about one of the methods of collecting intelligence by verbal information (using rumors). Now consider the second method of collecting PM sources for our intelligence.

You have already examined eight figures with fairly accurate data on regiments and divisions. Nothing confused you? Having no sources at headquarters and next to them, our intelligence knows everything for sure! Where from ?! Really the German military men went with posters so that our intelligence would not let them through? Exactly! The second way of collecting intelligence was carried out visually on the shoulder straps of German troops. It turns out that by shoulder straps it was possible to determine the membership of servicemen in regiments and headquarters of divisions. Even the headquarters of the corps and armies, but the author will not consider these headquarters. Below are photos of German epaulettes from the war of the 40's.

1941 year. German command against Soviet intelligence


Special message:
... June 8 at st. Terespol arrived and there was a group of soldiers in the amount of 25-26 people, on shoulder straps who had the number 709 (information obtained by personal observation of our ... agent) ...


Special message:
... Data on the deployment of 1, 56, 66, 98 and 531 points in Warsaw No. 711 received on epaulettes, there are no numbers on epaulettes - they are cut, but the prints on them remained. He saw such soldiers with numbers in the ranks from a company passing through the city.
The 17 settlement in Vyshkov is also identified by its controversial numbers; moreover, it was specified in conversations with the population. 537 pp has not yet cut off the numbers on uniform and continues to wear them, in addition, the whole Island knows about him that he arrived from the Greek front.
50 pp was established in conversations with the population, and No. 711 himself saw soldiers with prints on the uniform of No. 50 before the company. 719 nos. 703 is established in conversations among the population, the place of deployment of its headquarters was personally established by No. 703 ...


Did the German command know that it was easy to establish the identity of their troops by numbers on uniform? Of course she knew and was obliged to use this fact in an extensive disinformation operation launched at all levels!
In Warsaw, several months before June 21 (inclusive), our intelligence regularly tracked the 8 Tank Regiment. Probably his soldiers and officers were also identified by shoulder straps and conversations with the population. Only this regiment was part of the 15-th Panzer Division, which since April 1941 was sent to Libya at the disposal of the German African Corps ...

Maybe in the border areas there were no other divisions and regiments? Maybe German military fictitious formations were created, which our intelligence took for real? The author conducted an analysis of all regiments and divisions (except for artillery regiments - I apologize, but they are too difficult to track).

Let us consider only those German infantry divisions with numbers known to our intelligence that disappeared without a trace from the territory of former Poland (in the zone of responsibility of ZAPOVO and PribOVO) after the beginning of June. These are divisions from the above drawings with modest text: "no information".

Divisions with numbers: 11, 14, 23, 56, 208, 213, 215, 223 and 431 disappeared from the places of deployment. According to intelligence, the 14 I Infantry Division still arrived. The most interesting thing is that six (67%) of them (14, 56, 208, 213, 215 and 223, etc.) were never in the area in question, but their intelligence for some reason "Saw" and tracked ...

A similar picture is observed among the missing infantry regiments. A total of 52 regiments disappeared, of which 37 (71%) were also not in the zone of responsibility of ZAPOVO and PribOVO.



33% linden divisions and 29% linden regiments. Something numbers are quite close to the number 30% ... Can't you find?

The above regiments and divisions regularly depicted groups of German troops before our intelligence. There were rumors about them among the population, and when the German troops began to move intensively to the border, these dummies simply disappeared. They were replaced by new divisions that arrived in completely different places. New divisions that were not opened by our intelligence ...

Sufficiently “accurate” data on the deployment of German troops served as an illusion of omniscience and confidence in the control of the situation with the spacecraft command ...

The figures below show the numbers of infantry divisions and regiments that were discovered by intelligence agencies of all levels and departments of the Soviet Union and the actual numbers of military units by June 22 at the borders of ZapOVO and PribOVO. Matches in both tables are marked in red.



Of the 51 infantry division, available by 22 June against the troops of ZapOVO and PribOVO, our intelligence revealed only 16 (31%) It is possible that the German generals did not dare to show only misinformation ... They had to "merge" the real formations. Or sometimes rumors turned out to be true ...



According to RM, the numbers of 143 regiments were determined. In fact, at the borders of ZAPOVO and PribOVO there were 158 regiments. Matched numbers of 50 regiments (32%) Probably the number of formations that were allowed to be revealed to Soviet intelligence by the German command was determined by the value of the order of 30% ...

On the eve of the war, the tops of our intelligence realized that they were "being led by the nose", but it was already impossible to correct the situation. Headquarters of all levels are used to the fact that they "know everything" about the enemy and control the situation ...
In the same way as they used to use wired communications for exercises and did not know how to transmit short messages on the radio ...

Special message 16.6.41:
... The deployment of parts of Warsaw, marked on shoulder straps and conversations of local residents, is doubtful and requires careful verification ...


In the next part, we will again plunge into the analysis of the Republic of Moldova, which until now has not been carried out by any author or historian. We will consider the enemy cavalry, rifle and tank units. Stay tuned: it will be even more interesting further ...

To be continued
Author:
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  1. Edward Vashchenko
    Edward Vashchenko 22 August 2019 19: 38
    +10
    Interesting stuff.
    My question is: what are the sources for this study? what is the analysis based on?
    1. AsmyppoL
      22 August 2019 19: 59
      +13
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      1. Edward Vashchenko
        Edward Vashchenko 22 August 2019 20: 28
        +10
        Eugene,
        thanks for the info!
      2. Glory1974
        Glory1974 23 August 2019 13: 23
        +10
        Thank you for the article. Very interesting. I wanted to ask, but you did not analyze how exactly the German units were stationed, where they had a front, where was the rear.
        I talked with one historian, he argued that all German units were deployed with the rear to the border of the USSR. That is, there were rear units at the border, and combat units in the depths. A few days before the attack, the first echelons of units and formations were redeployed to the border, thus "turning" them in the other direction. Hence the recollections that "for several nights in a row on the adjacent side the motors are humming." Thus, it turns out that Hitler was not lying, claiming that the units were "sent" to the western front, and then it did not matter.
        This is to say that at this stage we are told that the US and missile defense missiles are against Iran, and no matter how they lie now. But in the future, nothing prevents them from reorienting their weapons. In this case, we will also blame everything on reconnaissance, on surprise, etc.?
        1. AsmyppoL
          23 August 2019 15: 24
          +8
          Glory 1974, not analyzed.
          You understand what’s the matter: if tank troops weren’t found by reconnaissance, then where could reconnaissance find the rear of non-existing tank divisions and motorized corps?

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          aKtoR
          the author's articles will appear and you can find the cycle. It is possible that this author could have been related to the structure that I am discussing in my article ... I heard from him in passing that one of the reasons to collect material about the "Unexpected War ..." cycle from the 11th part is to show errors in intelligence work. Explain that the betrayal of the generals did not exist then and will not be in our time! That intelligence mistakes have been taken into account and guaranteed to be repeated in our time!
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      3. ccsr
        ccsr 24 August 2019 17: 17
        -12
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        Two German maps and one ours (except for a large-scale map of V. Prussia and Poland, which are difficult to search for small settlements. Sometimes it is not even known in which area to search);

        What kind of childish immediacy the author has in military matters - you are simply amazed.
        Firstly, at the headquarters of the district (not even in the General Staff!), Maps are simultaneously kept by all the heads of departments (directorates) of the district, so that the reference to "our one" immediately causes laughter. Whose map - take the trouble to first inform and when it was drawn up and for whom.
        Secondly, at the district headquarters there can be several of them even in one day - for example, during the exercises they are prepared for each hearing of the bosses, and this happens by 2-3 once a day, when the scenario changes during the exercises.
        That is why if the author undertakes to fill his own price, first you need to point to whose card he refers to, who signed it and when, and only after that you can discuss what is printed on it.
        1. AsmyppoL
          24 August 2019 21: 44
          +5
          Personally, Milchakov, I do not owe anything! Look - the head should work ... I do not give you
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 25 August 2019 14: 20
            -12
            Quote: AsmyppoL
            Personally, Milchakov, I do not owe anything!

            Personally, I am not interested in you at all, because I have not yet heard anything smart from you. It is surprising how illiterate talkers pervert military history to please their ambitions. So leave your "handouts" to yourself - your lies are not interesting to anyone. It is a pity for those who take your amateurish texts for the truth - they will have an absolutely wrong idea about the conduct of intelligence during that period.
  2. Avior
    Avior 23 August 2019 01: 17
    +9
    Interesting article.
    But the first conclusion suggests itself is the low quality of intelligence.
    Conscious misinformation and its quantity (and what disinformation was in principle, it is quite probable) can be reliably judged if the same false information comes from different independent sources.
    1. AsmyppoL
      23 August 2019 15: 27
      +5
      I completely agree with your opinion
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 24 August 2019 20: 33
      +8
      "But the first conclusion suggests itself - the low quality of intelligence" ///
      ---
      Mostly high quality des German intelligence.
      At the strategic and political level, Berlin-Moscow.
      These dez neutralized all the heroic efforts of the Soviet intelligence
      in different countries and all the efforts of field intelligence at the border.
      After all, if the Kremlin believes infe from Berlin, what is the significance of the reports
      agents, aerial photos or radio intercepts?
      1. AsmyppoL
        24 August 2019 20: 59
        +7
        Alexei, I also came to the same conclusion - low quality intelligence, unfortunately ...
        or we can say it another way: the usual quality of intelligence and the high quality of misinformation in all directions and in all areas ...
        Only neither the people's commissar of defense, nor the chief of the General Staff, nor Stalin suspect this. They are confident in the absolute reliability and accuracy of intelligence! Stalin plays political games trusting intelligence, the German command hid everything: tank divisions, motorized corps, half of the field (spacecraft leadership thinks infantry) armies and headquarters of army groups ...
        Even infantry formations are not all on the border ... An illusion was created of balancing the situation on the verge ...
        And radio intercepts are just the fantasies of one of the users. Almost nothing is recorded. For example, in the ZapOVO headquarters, according to the radio intelligence data for all the time, only five headquarters have been detected and their presence is confirmed by undercover data (there is no trust in radio interception).
        Yes, and in the future, the head of this service after the war wrote that there was very little that they knew at the beginning of the war and a number of points were lost during exercises ...
      2. Avior
        Avior 24 August 2019 22: 53
        +9
        It can be seen from the article that the Soviet side saw the German units that did not really exist in the indicated places.
        Undoubtedly, misinformation was present, and even at a higher level.
        But its quantity ...
        In order to understand what the indicated errors were misinformation, and what was simply negligence or other errors of the agents, you need to understand, was information on specific parts of the Germans from different sources confirmed or not?
        If the second is the problem of blunders of intelligence, and if the first is of low quality and weak intelligence.
  3. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 23 August 2019 01: 28
    +6
    The main disinformation successfully carried out by German intelligence
    there was a personal letter from Hitler to Stalin, which Junkers-52 brought
    landed in Moscow on May 15, 1941.
    The letter stated that all concentration and relocation of German
    near the border of the USSR are a subtle move to euthanize British intelligence.
    All these troops will allegedly be abruptly deployed south to attack the British
    forces in the Mediterranean.
    And Hitler himself confirms the friendship and devotion to the pact with the USSR.
    Stalin bought into this misinformation. And he issued an order: "Do not give in to provocations
    and not respond to incidents of border violations. "
    Compared to this strategic disa, the rest are trifles.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 23 August 2019 04: 03
      +5
      There are no trifles in these matters, but you seem to have fought - you should know. hi
    2. Glory1974
      Glory1974 23 August 2019 13: 17
      +9
      Stalin bought into this misinformation. And he issued an order: "Do not give in to provocations
      and not respond to incidents of border violations. "

      It would be naive to think that it only went through Stalin. Desa was at all levels, and yet, while reading memoirs or memoirs of contemporaries, we know that everyone knew that there would be a war. And Stalin was no exception. Therefore, smiling at Hitler, he simultaneously re-equipped the army, covertly mobilized and redeployed units to the western districts.
      The whole question is the timing of the outbreak of hostilities, but there was no clarity here.
      Even knowing that an enemy will attack your checkpoint now, you are sitting with a gun and waiting, but still the first bullet will arrive unexpectedly.
      Therefore, I believe that unexpectedness justified the failure of the outbreak of war, but the root of the problem is different.
      Hitler also knew that the Allies were preparing to force the English Channel in 44, but the operation began unexpectedly for him and for the headquarters, although the soldiers were in the trenches and knew that this would happen. There is no salvation from the suddenness.
      The main task is to be ready for action after the fait accompli of the attack.
    3. ccsr
      ccsr 25 August 2019 15: 05
      -12
      Quote: voyaka uh
      And Hitler himself confirms the friendship and devotion to the pact with the USSR.
      Stalin bought this misinformation.

      A dubious statement, if only because Stalin did not buy it, he had to pretend that he believed the Germans. And he himself knew very well that war would be inevitable and all his activities during that period were aimed at delaying the start of the war. That is why Stalin had ostentatious "gullibility", although everyone who carefully studied that period understands perfectly well what was the reason for both the BUS and the transfer of troops from the internal districts. Stalin did not believe Hitler - this is noted in his memoirs by almost all eyewitnesses close to him.
    4. Tamara La Pajera
      Tamara La Pajera 18 October 2022 10: 24
      0
      You reproduced the invention of the late Igor Bunich from his fantasy interpretation of history, which was then given the status of a fact that the late Marshal Yazov believed.
      Links are not allowed here. Search Google for articles: 1. "Who opened the borders of the Junkers" "The clue to the flight of a German transport over the territory of the USSR" (there are links to archival funds, by the way).
      2. Valery Lebedev: Letter from Hitler to Stalin (Number 2 (157) of January 16, 2010) | The Seagull magazine (the story of how fiction became fried fact).
  4. Catfish
    Catfish 23 August 2019 04: 06
    +9
    Eugene, thanks! hi
    For me, completely unexpected and interesting material.

    PS Your muse special thanks. love
  5. Alex013
    Alex013 23 August 2019 10: 25
    +9
    Thank you for the article. Very interesting material and analytics.
  6. verp19
    verp19 23 August 2019 11: 20
    +10
    The article is very interesting. In the "Secret Diaries of Beria" in the 1st part, the meaning of intelligence carried out by border guards is indicated. In a commentary, the Kremlin (which is probably the author of the "diaries") tried to prove on the basis of a report to Stalin how Beria warned about the concentration of German troops and thus "shouted" - "War is coming." In the report there was something like "Some regiment moved here and there." There is no analysis of such movements. Conclusion (ie, and incurring responsibility) is also not. How did Stalin, having learned that some regiment had moved back and forth, would suddenly understand "What is war tomorrow"? And what was the foreign intelligence doing at that time?
  7. AsmyppoL
    23 August 2019 14: 52
    +8
    РЎРїР ° СЃРёР ± Рѕ всем Р · Р ° С ... РѕСЂРѕС € РёРµ СЃР »РѕРІР °!
  8. ccsr
    ccsr 24 August 2019 10: 57
    -10
    Author:
    Eugene
    Data on the deployment of German troops as of June 1 was first summarized in the intelligence report of the General Staff Intelligence Directorate on May 31.5.41, 5. This information was given in more detail in the appendix to Summary No. 15 (for the West) issued by the Intelligence Directorate on June XNUMX.

    This is complete nonsense, indicating that the author has no idea what the daily intelligence of the General Staff of the General Staff is, who prepares it and to whom it is usually presented as the first morning document. According to established practice, since the pre-war times, it is usually prepared at night, so that by the time the NSH arrives, the chief of the RU General Staff could submit it along with an enemy deployment map at the beginning of the day.
    I emphasize once again, the MONTHLY deployment and movement of enemy troops is reported to the NSS in the form of a daily intelligence report and a map with the situation. The same practice exists in all districts and in the armed forces.
    As regards Summary No. 5, the General Staff of the General Staff has a list of documents (summaries, newsletters, reference books, printed works, etc.) that are not daily, but are executed either cyclically or to specific events, but are not daily reports . This is exactly what Intelligence No. 5 (it was compiled on June 1) is and judging by it that it depicts the deployment of German troops for the FIRST TIME, can only amateurs or just liars. This summary was compiled for a wider familiarization of a number of officials, and did not constitute a daily intelligence report of the General Staff of the General Staff, but the author simply does not understand this, which is why in his fantasies this is the first generalizing document.
    1. AsmyppoL
      24 August 2019 21: 26
      +7
      Why so many, many letters? You need to read by syllables to get it !!! There is a reconnaissance report from May 31 and a report from June 15, which in the main part repeat themselves to letters)) You just need to search, look, and not talk like a wench with your tongue
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 25 August 2019 14: 15
        -11
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        Why so many, many letters?

        So that such illiterate as you could at least understand what is at stake.
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        There is intelligence on May 31 and June 15,

        There are also daily intelligence reports of the General Staff of the General Staff, which have not yet been declassified - and what's so surprising about this?
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        You just need to look, look, and not talk like a wench with your tongue

        You are just a miserable illiterate racket who is essentially unable to refute anything, which is why your posts are nothing but two primitive sentences. It is only through envy and your own incompetence that you have to come up with various nonsense that any military professional will laugh at.
  9. ccsr
    ccsr 24 August 2019 11: 16
    -11
    Author:
    Eugene
    Having no sources at headquarters and next to them, our intelligence knows everything for sure! Where from ?! Really the German military men went with posters so that our intelligence would not let them through? Exactly!

    It’s completely stupid, because conducting radio intelligence on the eve of the war made it possible to quite accurately tie the deployment of headquarters to the locations of the Wehrmacht direction finding radio nodes, which sometimes went on the air at least for the purpose of checking radio networks. This is evidenced by radio intelligence veterans:
    1. AsmyppoL
      24 August 2019 21: 22
      +8
      No need to post false comments! Let's get the facts, sir!
      Just provide a message or a document saying that all the headquarters were opened by the radio interception service
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 25 August 2019 14: 09
        -12
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        Just provide a message or a document saying that all the headquarters were opened by the radio interception service

        For the illiterate, I specifically inform you that at least in four border districts at least four divisions and four separate radio centers were engaged in radio intelligence and direction finding, which reported in detail about their work to Moscow through the district intelligence department. In what such document, "experts" want to see that ALL headquarters were opened by radio intelligence officers? The radio reconnaissance officers did not prepare a separate intelligence report for the NGSH - however, such talkers like you do not know this. Especially when you consider that some radio nodes of the formations had two positions, including one in Germany, up to June 21. I'm not even talking about the radio silence mode - the laymen usually do not understand what it is, and therefore it is pointless to discuss this issue with them.
        So in what document, verbiage, did the radio intelligence officers reflect all the opened headquarters?
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 27 August 2019 10: 57
        -10
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        Let's get the facts, sir!

        Study carefully, the dreamer and draw conclusions for yourself before you start to lie about the fact that intelligence has overslept everything or deceived it:
        In these difficult pre-war years, Soviet intelligence managed to accomplish the impossible. Thanks to the most valuable sources, extremely important information was obtained, which were reported in detail to the country's leadership. These data are stunning today with their details.
        The week before the attack, Soviet foreign intelligence reported to the Kremlin information from its reliable source, Corsican, an officer of the General Staff of the Luftwaffe, that all preparatory measures had been completed and the German armed forces were waiting for the invasion order. Another Berlin source, Starshina, reported that authorized officials were appointed to Moscow, Kiev, and the Caucasus to organize the export of resources from the regions of the USSR to be occupied by German troops. Information about the war came from our agent Breitenbach, who worked in a leadership position in the General Directorate of Imperial Security.
        June 17, 1941 Head of Foreign Intelligence P.M. Fitin personally informed the concrete date of the outbreak of war on the Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars I. To Stalin.

        https://russia.tv/video/show/brand_id/60650/episode_id/2179623/video_id/2194656/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com
        1. AsmyppoL
          28 August 2019 19: 39
          +6
          Again, I posted something, but there is no analysis even for a small gyrus
          Two amateur dreamers or human-quotes. What boob reads your works?
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 28 August 2019 20: 17
            -9
            Quote: AsmyppoL
            Two amateur dreamers

            A professional from the special services and a famous historian is certainly not an authority for you - they made me laugh. However, this is not surprising, but you make up your mind of an expert, but believe me, no one believes in this.
          2. ccsr
            ccsr 28 August 2019 20: 37
            -11
            Quote: AsmyppoL
            What boob reads your works?

            You first. I'm glad that you called yourself a booby - I approve self-criticism.
  10. ccsr
    ccsr 24 August 2019 11: 31
    -10
    Author:
    Eugene
    In Warsaw, several months before June 21 (inclusive), our intelligence regularly tracked the 8 Tank Regiment. Probably his soldiers and officers were also identified by shoulder straps and conversations with the population. Only this regiment was part of the 15-th Panzer Division, which since April 1941 was sent to Libya at the disposal of the German African Corps ...


    Because of his illiteracy in military matters, the author does not even suspect that the tank UNION may not be fully deployed to a new deployment site, which is why it is not at all surprising that some regiment could remain in its former place.
    Until the author submits a document where the regiment was moving as part of the entire division to Libya, all his arguments about the reconnaissance can be considered fortunetelling.
    By the way, this is how things were in Libya:
    The main tank forces of the African Corps arrived in Tripoli not earlier than mid-March. But even by the end of March, the 5th mechanized (subsequently 21st Panzer) division still had not arrived completely. Second Division - 15th tank - did not expect before May. Despite the lack of strength, April 3, 1941 Rommel threw his incomplete division into a test counterattack on the position of the British troops.

    https://history.wikireading.ru/203509
    So the fact of the appearance of tank divisions in an incomplete composition is a common occurrence in military affairs.
    1. AsmyppoL
      24 August 2019 21: 04
      +7
      Again, Milchakov has many, many, many letters and it makes no sense ... If only with a tongue like patting an old grandmother !!
      The topic is about what ?? About the period from May 31 to June 22 !! Awww, garage, wake up !!!
      The extract quoted by you says that the arrival of the 15th was expected in May (other sources even say that it arrived at the end of May))) And also take the Tu-Tuu train, the boat ...
      If you did not post the info from the wiki, then you could find out that the first formations began to arrive already in April ... I think it is clearly visible who exactly is illiterate ...
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 25 August 2019 13: 59
        -12
        Quote: AsmyppoL
        Your excerpt says that the arrival of the 15th TD was expected in May

        In the example I have just shown, it is shown that parts of the compound can arrive at the new location at different times. But ignoramuses in military affairs simply cannot imagine this.
  11. VS
    VS 26 August 2019 08: 49
    -10
    Quote: AsmyppoL
    RќRoS ‡ RμRіRѕ RЅRѕRІRѕRіRѕ: RІSЃRμ C ‡ S,Rѕ RoRјRμRμS,SЃSЏ PI SЃRІRѕR ± RѕRґRЅRѕRј RґRѕSЃS,SѓRїRμ SЃ RґR ° RІRЅRoS ... RІSЂRμRјRμRЅ.

    and you think that what has been "published" today is enough for global conclusions - that the Germans have outplayed our intelligence? Have you read Golikov's memoirs?
  12. VS
    VS 26 August 2019 08: 51
    -8
    Quote: AsmyppoL
    the German command chemically with its troops at the border,

    and in our intelligence reports, this was noted - the Germans are trying to fool us ..
  13. VS
    VS 26 August 2019 08: 54
    -10
    Quote: voyaka uh
    if the Kremlin believes infe from Berlin

    and the Kremlin type believed ?? )) Well, the Kremlin himself told me how he believed Hitler?))
  14. VS
    VS 26 August 2019 08: 56
    -10
    Quote: voyaka uh
    Stalin bought this misinformation.

    he told you these things - on a crystal ball?)))
  15. VS
    VS 26 August 2019 08: 57
    -10
    Quote: Alex013
    Very interesting material and analytics.

    analytics "on only that PUBLISHED type is nonsense)))
  16. VS
    VS 26 August 2019 09: 00
    -10
    Quote: ccsr
    Why so many, many letters?

    So that such illiterate as you could at least understand what is at stake.

    think understand?)))
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 27 August 2019 12: 20
      -9
      Quote: V.S.
      think you understand?

      He can lie less if he knows that his lies will be exposed immediately.
      1. AsmyppoL
        28 August 2019 19: 36
        +6
        It seems that the only liars we have are Kozinkin and Milchakov, who can’t look for anything except Wikipedia wink
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 28 August 2019 20: 14
          -10
          Quote: AsmyppoL
          It seems that the only liars we have are Kozinkin and Milchakov, who can’t look for anything except Wikipedia

          Plug this "document" into a known place - I can print a dozen of such fakes.
          1. AsmyppoL
            28 August 2019 20: 30
            +7
            There is a huge abyss between me and you (Milchakov and Kozinkin)!

            You can only print a bunch of fakes and spice it up with your fiction, but I can find information on German sites and in our electronic archives!))) laughing
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 28 August 2019 20: 35
              -10
              Quote: AsmyppoL
              There is a huge abyss between me and you (Milchakov and Kozinkin)!

              You are just a miserable verbiage, who imagines that he understands military issues best of all. Although it is already clear that your knowledge is at the level of Zakoretsky, and maybe even lower ...
              Quote: AsmyppoL
              I can find information on German sites

              On German sites, amateurs write the same as you, that's why you can’t submit documents, but you’re slipping some murders.
              Quote: AsmyppoL
              and in our electronic archives!

              So you are misinterpreting the essence of the documents - this is the difference between people like you and military professionals.
              1. kloss
                kloss 29 August 2019 05: 23
                +7
                Excuse me to quote excerpts from the article where Eugene misinterprets the facts.
                In the previous part, I came across signs of amateurism in your message with the typist of the intelligence department and in another message that every corps is an association.
                In the message above, apart from insults and information from Wikipedia about the African Corps (him) there is nothing. You did not even bother to voice your comments on the above Wikipedia texts.
                Could you please point out that the tank regiment of the 15th division was in Warsaw in June.
                If they are not, then your comments on the topic of the regiment from this division are an empty chatter. Or as they say on the forums - srach
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 29 August 2019 09: 47
                  -10
                  Quote: kloss
                  Excuse me to quote excerpts from the article where Eugene misinterprets the facts.
                  In the previous part, I came across signs of amateurism in your message with the typist of the intelligence department and in another message that every corps is an association.

                  In both cases, you have clearly shown that you have no idea how things really are, because you never had anything to do with intelligence reports, and only military professionals can consider a brigade not a compound. Enlighten the verbiage:
                  Each airborne brigade had in its composition:
                  - management of the brigade;
                  - a separate communications company;
                  - a separate reconnaissance scooter company;
                  - four parachute airborne battalions;
                  - artillery division;

                  - a separate anti-aircraft machine gun company;
                  - junior school staff.
                  The size of the brigade was determined at 2588 people. Each paratrooper battalion had in its composition 546 people.

                  Even the modern air assault brigade is not very different in number from the one that was in 1941.
                  Quote: kloss
                  Could you please point out that the tank regiment of the 15th division was in Warsaw in June.

                  It was not I who claimed that he was not in Warsaw, so ask the author what data he has in order to prove this and refute the intelligence report.
                  Quote: kloss
                  If they are not, then your comments on the topic of the regiment from this division are an empty chatter.

                  You can believe in the lies that the author of the article is distributing - it makes no difference to me. What does your and his illiteracy in military matters have to me? Moreover, you are brazenly lying about the Airborne Forces brigade in 1941, as if it was not a combination of at least 5 battalions-divisions and individual units, up to the training. Especially for such amateurs, as you inform, the modern SPN brigade is a CONNECTION, and at the same time it is two times smaller in number than the airborne brigade in 1941. So you are a complete layman in the definition of compounds and associations - learn the materiel ....
                  1. kloss
                    kloss 29 August 2019 10: 58
                    +7
                    Specially for the settlement of Milchakov, the boor and the amateur I say:
                    1. In the presented fragment of incomprehensible text there is no mention of the connection.
                    2. Give a link to the document that the Airborne Brigade Model 1941 was a unit, not a part.
                    3. No need to give an analogy of the modern army with the pre-war without reference, your amateurish considerations do not interest.
                    4. Based on your dilentan judgment, it follows that the company is not a unit, but part because it contains a platoon of mortar and machine guns.
                    5. For Milchakov, I specifically clarify that a connection is a connection of separate parts with their number, seal and banner!
                    What banner does a battalion from a brigade have? Have you ever been anywhere beyond the communication center? Or already insanity came to visit?
                    1. ccsr
                      ccsr 29 August 2019 17: 30
                      -11
                      Quote: kloss
                      1. In the presented fragment of incomprehensible text there is no mention of the connection.

                      Because if you got into the discussion at all, not getting acquainted with the previous pearls of this author, then I give you my answer to his oversights:
                      Author:
                      Eugene
                      At that time, Moscow did not know that, for various reasons, reconnaissance groups were not found by intelligence. including large associations of tank and motorized formations.

                      My answer:
                      The author is confused about three pines - there were no "large associations of tank and motorized formations" in the tank groups because UNION, according to military science, is a corps and an army, а German tank groups consisted of formations. It was these groups that later became the German tank armies.

                      http://armedman.ru/stati/sostav-nemetskih-tankovyih-grupp-v-1941-godu-pri-napadenii-na-sssr.html#1-__Panzergruppe1
                      https://topwar.ru/161405-21-ijunja-1941-goda-razvedka-o-nemeckoj-gruppirovke-protiv-zapovo.html#comment-id-9633461

                      Quote: kloss
                      2. Give a link to the document that the Airborne Brigade Model 1941 was a unit, not a part.

                      I have already given the definitions of "join" and "union" from the military encyclopedia - look for my answers to this author.

                      Quote: kloss
                      3. No need to give an analogy of the modern army with the pre-war without reference, your amateurish considerations do not interest.

                      So military definitions have not changed much since then regarding formations and associations - study military dictionaries and an encyclopedia, preferably TSB.

                      Quote: kloss
                      4. Based on your dilentan judgment, it follows that the company is not a unit, but part because it contains a platoon of mortar and machine guns.

                      A separate company can be a part, with its own armament, and with its field mail number.
                      Quote: kloss
                      that the connection is the connection of individual parts having their number, seal and banner!

                      Learn military terms not according to wild ideas of amateurs, but according to scientific dictionaries and encyclopedias, or from textbooks of military universities. In a separate company there may be a seal, its military unit number, but the banner is not presented to it.
                      Quote: kloss
                      What banner does a battalion from a brigade have?

                      And here is the banner, if a separate battalion is just called "separate" because it is able to cope with its tasks without being included in the compound. By the way, if a separate battalion had its own banner before it was included in the formation, then it remains with it or is handed over to the archive, everything is at the discretion of the high military command.
                      Quote: kloss
                      Have you ever been anywhere beyond the communication center? Or already insanity came to visit?

                      You see, whether a clown, I began to serve where there were subsequently almost as many officers as there were officers in the division, and we did not have a banner - learn the materiel, verbiage.
                      1. kloss
                        kloss 1 September 2019 11: 45
                        +5
                        Where are the facts that the tank brigade for example 1942 or the Airborne Brigade is a compound?
                        Facts, not an excerpt from Wikipedia, related to the present?
                      2. ccsr
                        ccsr 1 September 2019 12: 13
                        -9
                        Quote: kloss
                        Where are the facts that the tank brigade for example 1942 or the Airborne Brigade is a compound?

                        We have one SOVIET MILITARY SCIENCE, and the fact that you both do not chop it, is obvious to me.
                  2. kloss
                    kloss 29 August 2019 11: 09
                    +5
                    I was struck by the words of the village and the amateur: So the fact of the appearance of tank divisions in an incomplete composition is a common occurrence in military affairs.

                    If there is only one tank regiment in a tank division, then what is a tank division after rebasing without a tank regiment?

                    Would have read the memoirs of Adjutant Rommel on the redeployment of the division. How can an incomprehensible text be cited, accompany it with a text if, yes, even to insult after such a stupid comment !!! I would bring documents or facts, and not my amateurish nonsense !!!

                    Why the text of the fabrication of the scout at headquarters ??! Eugene correctly wrote that we did not have scouts at headquarters from the corps and above! Why boorish words about not understanding the communication scheme? !! If there is anything to show that the scouts were, then let's get the facts !!
                    If not, then why put the amateur delirium ?? !!
                    If there was a scout at the headquarters of the field army, then they would organize the main and backup communication lines, regardless of the difficulties !!! But the amateur cannot understand this, he lives in the world of his illusions !!
                    1. ccsr
                      ccsr 29 August 2019 17: 40
                      -10
                      Quote: kloss
                      If there is only one tank regiment in a tank division, then what is a tank division after rebasing without a tank regiment?

                      The order to move the connection in two or three stages just implies that support units may appear at the new location and then the combat units will arrive. Everything is decided by the higher command - there are no identical situations.
                      Quote: kloss
                      Would have read the memoirs of Adjutant Rommel on the redeployment of the division.

                      Why are you afraid to quote his words?
                      Quote: kloss
                      Eugene correctly wrote that we did not have scouts at headquarters from the corps and above!

                      You are another treacher who believes that recruiting an agent at headquarters is like going to the left in a brothel and not picking up something for yourself. As you imagine it, I would like to know, especially considering that even if you recruit him, how to keep in touch with him in the field.
                      .
                      Quote: kloss
                      If there was a scout at the headquarters of the field army, then they would organize the main and backup communication lines, regardless of the difficulties !!!

                      With whom he would establish a relationship - tell us more in detail from this place. Especially about the difficulties ...
              2. kloss
                kloss 29 August 2019 11: 10
                +6
                So you, too, are misinterpreting everything and not presenting any facts except I have served and I know everything.
                Sloblud you are pretty not responsible for your words !!!
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 29 August 2019 17: 47
                  -11
                  Quote: kloss
                  So you, too, are misinterpreting everything and not presenting any facts except I have served and I know everything.

                  I gave you entire paragraphs of definitions from TSB, but you simply cannot understand them.
                  Quote: kloss
                  Sloblud you are pretty not responsible for your words !!!

                  On the contrary, I try to answer various nonsense, like what you are carrying, but you did not bring a single document, not to mention the fact that you thought that the Airborne Forces brigade could not be a unit in 1941 on the basis of your wild ideas about the terms “connection "and" part "..
  17. VS
    VS 26 August 2019 09: 42
    -9
    It was not enough for us an anonymous lady carrying nonsense about the fact that intelligence did not report anything about it there and therefore the Kremlin did not expect an attack on "June 22"! so another such clever guy got out (((

    Here is an example of how inadequate a carrier for MORE THAN 15 YEARS (!!!!!) nonsense about intelligence that she did not tell someone there - on this he built delusional fantasies about "being late with pressing the red buttons" - https: // liewar. ru / tragediya-22-iyunya / 347-antiisaev.html))))

    As a result, they dunked him in full nonsense and now he does not know how he will have to get out))
    1. kloss
      kloss 29 August 2019 11: 19
      +7
      Who would say Oleg !! A man making money on the distortion of history and calling war veterans Unter !!! The mind itself went for a walk, and the historian too !! What do you have besides fiction and lies?

      Zhukov called from I.V. Stalin? Lies without facts !!
      Zhukov called the district before a meeting with Stalin? Lies without facts! Tyulenev lied and wrote about the call to the districts? Believe him after the lies of the seal were revealed in the magazines of the air defense units and the commander of Zhuravlev. Believe me, because otherwise it turns out in your books of lies!
      How did you write there that these calls are confirmed by divisional divisors? Lies!! There are no such facts for this county! This refutes the man who gave the orders and commander of the district!

      One lie, but something writes about an article where there are dozens of facts! You try to refute the facts, and not to mud with water! These tricks from the yellow press! To which can be attributed nonsense in your books!
  18. VS
    VS 29 August 2019 13: 11
    -9
    Quote: kloss
    Who would say Oleg !! A man making money on the distortion of history and calling war veterans Unter !!! The mind itself went for a walk, and the historian too !! What do you have besides fiction and lies?

    Zhukov called from I.V. Stalin? Lies without facts !!
    Zhukov called the district before a meeting with Stalin? Lies without facts! Tyulenev lied and wrote about the call to the districts? Believe him after the lies of the seal were revealed in the magazines of the air defense units and the commander of Zhuravlev. Believe me, because otherwise it turns out in your books of lies!
    How did you write there that these calls are confirmed by divisional divisors? Lies!! There are no such facts for this county! This refutes the man who gave the orders and commander of the district!

    One lie, but something writes about an article where there are dozens of facts! You try to refute the facts, and not to mud with water! These tricks from the yellow press! To which can be attributed nonsense in your books!


    First - can you introduce yourself and you won’t hide behind a dog-clicher - since they decided to turn to me by NAME to others too? )))
    2-the fact that Zhukov called the General Operations Officer on duty at about 22 p.m. June 21 and gave instructions to ring the district with a warning of waiting for an important encryption - this is a dumb fact because it is a military service kitchen in which you are an oak oak)) AND THIS is not my problem) )))
    3rd - The fact that in the EVENING in KOVO and OdVO was informed about a possible attack - the divisional commander in THESE districts showed Pokrovsky - but if you don’t know this - NOT MY problems)))
    Can you refute Tyulenev’s words about this? Nope ..))
    WHAT commander in the OdVO refutes Tyulenev’s words?))) Quote REFUTATION OF THESE Tyulenev’s words you will pamper ??)) no? So why are you publishing your words then ??))

    So whom did I pour mud on ?? ??)) Do you want to look at HOW to put the counterfeiters in place?))
    learn ...)) - https://liewar.ru/tragediya-22-iyunya/347-antiisaev.html

    for 4 days, 500 people read)))
  19. VS
    VS 29 August 2019 13: 17
    -9
    Quote: kloss
    What do you have besides fiction and lies?

    and WHAT my books have you read?))) I recommend - the last two - "Before June 22" and "Myths on June 22"))) The pirates have not posted on the network yet, I think they will post it in September))) so - run to the store and educate yourself - you can understand HOW the Isavs and others ... are making a fool HERE)))
    Anonymous ladies and other forgers tell you that 10%, God forbid, all intelligence reports make global conclusions about Stalin))) that Stalin did not wait for the attack and did not believe in it until the border guards caught Liskokva))) - and YOU AND EARS hung up)))
    1. kloss
      kloss 1 September 2019 11: 42
      +6
      To know the point of view of the author does not need to read a book! It is enough to discuss with him or read another nonsense in an article about Isaev.
      You can’t write anything clever - the god of mind did not give, but there is plenty of rudeness.
      Where are the answers of the commanders from OdVO, liar? They are not there ...
      1. VS
        VS 2 September 2019 08: 12
        -7
        So you also think that the fact that the border divisions had up to 50 km on the border on June 22 is to blame for Stalin, who started the withdrawal of troops late - the armies of the RGK - late pressed the "red button" - only AFTER June 13 and therefore the armies of the RGK did not have time to reach the BORDER - according to the alleged plans of the General Staff - to meet the Germans there together with the border divisions of the districts? )))))))))))))))))))))
        YOU are seriously so stupid that you did not see in Isaev's speeches about the "red" buttons that he either raves or is engaged in falsification for fools ???)))) AND AFTER THIS do you think that your criticism of MY words will be interesting to me? yes uzhzhzh))))
        ...............................................

        But Pasternak still read)))
  20. VS
    VS 2 September 2019 08: 18
    -6
    Quote: kloss
    Where are the answers of the commanders from OdVO, liar? They are not there ...

    open or my two-volume "The Secret of the Tragedy of June 22" aphid Chekunov's two-volume book - "I am writing solely from memory .." - the answers of the division commanders ODVO and KOVO - as they were warned about the attack on June 21 EVENING)))

    But - are you seriously so stupid that you do not understand HOW and WHAT Isaev is lying to ??)))
  21. Romv
    Romv 4 September 2019 12: 20
    +3
    Thank you for the interesting material.