Russian warriors 1050-1350 years

With his team, in Constantinople armor,
The prince on the field rides on the right horse.
A.S. Pushkin. Song about the Prophetic Oleg

Knights and chivalry of three centuries. Appeal to Museum Values Army Museum in Paris и Vienna Armory does not interrupt our acquaintance with the theme of knighthood and knightly armament of the 1050-1350 era. As already emphasized, this chronological segment of the Middle Ages was chosen for its monograph by the famous English historian David Nicole. Last time, based on his materials, we examined the knighthood of Armenia. Now, according to the logic of things, one should turn to the knighthood of Georgia, and this topic is present in his work, but ... only half the page. Moreover, in the information environment accessible to me, unfortunately, there were no sources of photographic materials on this topic. And since there are no such sources and photographs, what is there to write about? Better to see once than to read ten times. Therefore, we will leave the Georgian knighthood for now, and proceed immediately (and finally, someone will say!) To the military affairs of this era in Russia. That is, in Russia.

Let's start with historiography

The topic is certainly interesting. But there are two “buts.” The first is our domestic historiography, no matter how strange it may sound. It would seem that it should have just begun with it, but it is so vast that it is not possible to do this within the framework of the article on “VO”. Because who is only about armor and weapons I didn’t write our country. The second “but” is again illustrative material. There is written, but there are no "pictures". Rather, they are, of course, but they are so expensive that in fact they are not available for publication. The Kremlin Armory is not the Vienna Imperial Armory. I wrote there, they say, allow ... and permission, and free of charge, I immediately received to use their photo materials, and with us - "the price for the right to publish one image of a museum object on the site is 6500 rubles." You don’t even know whether to cry or laugh.

Illustration from the book of A.V. Viskovatova "Historical a description of the clothes and weapons of the Russian troops. ” In 30 parts. St. Petersburg. Military Printing House, 1841-1862. Demonstrates the similarity of weapons of Western European warriors and knights of Russia.

Therefore, I decided to focus on the following option: just translate the text of D. Nicolas so that readers of VO get an idea of ​​what foreign, in particular, British historians write about our military history and that, accordingly, they read about our history wars, weapons and armor foreign English-speaking citizens. Who wants to check the accuracy of the translation - please. The source is indicated at the end of the text, pages - 85-87. So here we go ...

Russian foot soldiers of the 10th - 11th centuries Fig. from the book of A.V. Viskovatova.

“Although Russia was vast by the standards of medieval Europe, it was not particularly large compared to the Eurasian nomadic states, which were its southern and southeastern neighbors. The first principality of Russia arose in the X century, partly as a result of Scandinavian penetration along the great rivers, and partly as a result of the influence of semi-nomadic Khazars in the southern steppes. It was the land of forests, while in the south there were open steppes, which were still dominated by nomadic peoples belonging to the Central Asian culture.

Horse warrior X - XI century. Fig. from the book of A.V. Viskovatova.

The extent to which Russia dominated the distant northern forests and tundra is a subject of controversy, but its western borders with Hungary, Poland and the Baltic peoples were relatively clear, although they often changed. The eastern border of medieval Russia was perhaps the least clearly defined. Here, the Slavs gradually colonized the river valleys in the region, previously inhabited by more backward Finno-Ugric tribes, whose settlement density was not too high. The only urbanized culture in this direction was the culture of the Volga Bulgars, who lived in the middle basin of the Volga and Kama. This Turkic-Islamic state, in turn, was more perfect than the early medieval Russian state.

Russian armor. Fig. from the book of A.V. Viskovatova.

Between the 10th and 13th centuries, the eastern border of Russia went from the Dnieper River to the southeast of Kiev along the approximately northeastern line to the headwaters of the Kama River. A virtually indefinite border continued north-east to the Arctic Ocean. In these vast territories, the relatively peaceful tribes of Yugra, Chud and Samoyeds may have recognized a certain degree of Russian suzerainty or, at least, participated in the profitable trade in furs with it. ”

Russian armor. Fig. from the book of A.V. Viskovatova.

A rather peculiar presentation of our early history, isn't it? But Nicole generally likes to "write history in large strokes." And again, but there is nothing offensive for us here. All according to our annals. There is the “tormenting” of the Slavs by the Avars (obrov) that he did not mention, and the tribute to the Khazars, and all the “calling of the Varangians” that also cause fierce debate. And even the fact that he considers the culture of the Volga Bulgars more perfect is justified. After all, they were already monotheists, and the Slavs up to the 988 year were pagans. That is, nowhere D. Nicole in his brief interpretations does not go beyond our own official history, based on annalistic sources. Read on ...

Russian armor. Fig. from the book of A.V. Viskovatova.

“In the early period, infantry inevitably dominated the military operations of forests, swamps and rivers on this land. According to many sources, the Russian infantry of the 10th century was often well armed, almost in the Byzantine style. Large infantry contingents consisted of peasant militias in the XI-XIII centuries. Such infantry made extensive use of archery, using simple long bows, and sometimes large semi-composite bows covered with birch bark. They may indicate Scandinavian rather than Byzantine influence even in the Kiev region, although arrowheads reflected many styles and influences.

Helmet from the Black Grave, Chernihiv №4. Russia, X century. GIM.

Who influenced more?

Ultimately, more important than the Byzantine and early Scandinavian influence on the military affairs of Ancient Russia was the influence of the militarily sophisticated nomadic peoples of the Eurasian steppes. In fact, the entire history of late medieval Russian weapons, armor and military practice was based on competing influence from the Steppe and Western Europe, and not Scandinavia. One of the most striking examples of the influence of the Eurasian steppes is the use of plate armor, although this can also reflect contacts with Byzantium. The same can be said about compound bows, which were used in some parts of Russia, and the curved saber, which has been known among the Eastern Slavs since at least the 10th century, although these weapons remained rare outside the southern border regions. Meanwhile, medieval Russia was also an exporter of military influence and armaments. Both that and another at the end of the X and XI centuries was directed to Northern and Central Europe, and also in the XII and XIII centuries to the Volga Bulgars, as well as to other neighboring lands.

Scandinavian sword. One of those that are found in large numbers on the territory of Russia, and even in the Volga near Kazan. 1021 Weight (Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York)

In the first united Russian state, the southern city of Kiev dominated, and the Kiev army, apparently, was the most highly developed military force even after the fragmentation of “Kiev” Rus. Some believe that it was originally a squad of the Scandinavian (Viking) type. But the presence of heavily armed riders in the squad may reflect long-standing contacts with Byzantium. The mounted army dominated the wars for Kiev in the 13th and 13th centuries. In this case, the rider's main weapon remained a sword and spear. Whereas the city militia adopted a crossbow (called a self-gunned gun in Russia - V.Sh.). Another important element in the composition of the Kiev forces was the allied or subordinate to the Russian principalities, bordering nomadic tribes, which in 1200 were called "black hats" ("black hoods" - V.Sh.). They provided equestrian archery, necessary for fighting other steppe peoples. The characteristic masked helmets associated with the “black hoods” may have come from the Middle Eastern regions and not from the Eurasian steppe, but they clearly reflect the importance of archery. This was further emphasized by the purely Russian form of the helmet, which had a built-in visor that protects the upper part of the face, although it developed from an earlier Scandinavian helmet with a half mask.

The tactics of the warriors of Kievan Rus largely developed as a response to the threat posed by archery. The most common method of combat formation was the placement of infantrymen in the center: spearmen made up a wall of shields to protect the foot archers, while the cavalry held the flanks. Wagons or carts were used both for transporting supplies and for building field fortifications in a manner similar to that which occurred among the Pechenegs. Numerous forest fortifications along the border between the forest and the steppe served as the basis for operations against nomads, and at the same time, they often had garrisons of Kiev nomadic allies. Forts along the eastern borders, lying within the forest belt, were also equipped with a class of free “warriors-farmers,” whose social status had much in common with later Cossacks. ”

Again, nothing detracting from our military history and culture, as we see, is not here. Everything is confirmed by excavation materials and chronicles. Well, the last paragraph is just ... a brief description of the Zolotarevskoye ancient settlement found near Penza.

These defenses and their defenders seemed to be equally characteristic of both central and northern Russia. Kiev, weakened by the constant struggle with the nomads, gradually lost control of other principalities, especially in the north, which meanwhile developed in abundance, and their population was constantly growing. By the middle of the XIII century, two principalities, such as Vladimir-Suzdal in the east-central part of Russia and the city of Novgorod in the north, became owners of significant military contingents. The armies of Central Russia still had much in common with the armies of Kiev in the south. The core was professional cavalry, and it was strengthened by urban militias, various mercenaries and the rarely convened peasant militia. The most common form of armor was armor with plate protection (“forged army” - V.Sh.). Archery and battle ax played a more significant role than in most Western European armies. Crossbows were still rare throughout the 13th century.

The degree of stagnation in the development of military affairs in Russia after the Mongol invasions at the beginning and middle of the 13th century can be exaggerated. In many ways, the very concept of stagnation can be misleading. Russian military equipment at the end of the 13th and 14th centuries reflected the threat posed by highly developed equestrian archery and the mounted armies of the Mongols. Elsewhere in Europe and the Middle East, more advanced military technologies proved inappropriate to combat their tactics and continued to demonstrate their relative inferiority until the Ottoman Turks were finally stopped by a completely different form of military equipment at the gates of Vienna in the 17th century. However, it cannot be denied that as a result of the Mongol invasions and the subsequent imposition of Mongolian and Golden Horde suzerainty, medieval Russia to a large extent left the orbit of European military culture and switched to the orbit of military culture of the Eurasian steppes, thereby finding itself in a certain form of military-technological isolation from Western countries.

The situation in Novgorod was different. Despite Mongolian suzerainty, Novgorod remained the window of Russia to the West. Although this did not save the city from attacks by both Swedes and German military orders (settled in the Baltic States) in the 13th century. On the other hand, the unique situation in Novgorod led to the further development of stone fortifications, effective and well-equipped infantry, the widespread use of crossbows, and the development of tactics for using horse troops dressed in durable plate armor. The first firearm that was used in Russia, quite possibly, appeared precisely on the territory of Novgorod. This reinforces the view that the acquaintance with the "fire battle" came from Europe, and not from the East, despite the Mongols' own knowledge of gunpowder. "

Galich Boyar (right), Volhynian crossbowman (center) and Lithuanian warrior (left), early 13th century

Again, no particularly controversial statements. Nothing derogatory in comparison with what was reported in the same study regarding other countries of Western and Eastern Europe. The information is presented in a concise but comprehensive manner. Therefore, we hardly have to say that in the West they “belittle our military history”, as our journalists have been constantly repeating about it, naturally, we have not read the corresponding books and articles in journal periodicals. D. Nicole does not even say anything about the Mongol yoke, but uses the term suzerainty. By the way, about the place and role of plate armor in Russia, the Soviet historian A.F. Medvedev wrote back in 1959 in his work “On the history of plate armor in Russia” // SA. 1959, No.2. It is on the Internet and those who wish can familiarize themselves with it without difficulty. By the way, he also considered the history of chain mail in Russia, and his work (A.F. MEDVEDEV "TO THE HISTORY OF THE PIPES IN ANCIENT RUSSIA", USSR Academy of Sciences. Brief Communications of the Institute of the History of Material Culture. Issue XLIX, 1953) still have not lost their relevance.

Finds, finds, finds ...

Very interesting finds of iron weapons were made on the territory of the Mordvinians, and today are exhibited in the Mordovian Republican Museum of Local Lore named after I.D. Voronin in the city of Saransk. These are battle axes and spearheads, as well as sword blades and sabers. A unique combat belt with silver details was found. All these findings can be attributed to the IX - XI centuries. As a very pleasant fact, it should be noted that the employees of this museum shared these photos on their first request, and without exhibiting any commercial conditions, for which they are honored and praised! Here are some of these photos ...

Belt.

Ax, and obviously not economic.

This one is also a typical combat ...

Spear tip.

And the saber was found in the burials of the Mordovian land ...

And the sword ...

Tournaments in the Russian land!

By the way, we are talking about knight armament right? But were the Russian warriors-vigilantes knights, or in the Middle Ages everything was different from ours like in others. Yes, there were weapons, which they were not inferior to Western Europeans and worldviews, and even because in the same way as the "Westerners" participated in knightly tournaments. We are informed about this ... our chronicles, for example, Ipatievskaya, which describe the tournament organized by Mikhail Chernigovsky’s son, Rostislav, under the walls of the city of Yaroslavl-Galitsky, which he himself besieged. Detachments of the Polish and even (according to Western sources) Hungarian knightly cavalry helped Prince Rostislav. And so, to frighten the besieged, and at the same time to entertain the guests, it was decided to hold a tournament. But the Russian prince himself appeared on it completely unsuccessfully: he was knocked off the horse by the leader of the Poles, and in the fall he either dislocated or broke his shoulder. This event took place in the year 1249. True, the church condemned such amusements, and the chronicler-monks did not often enter information about such godly merrymaking into their Talmuds. But still brought in! For example, the grandson of Vladimir Monomakh, Prince Vsevolod, the Novgorod chronicler condemned for "military toys with nobles." He fell into the annals and the duel between the Moscow governor Rodion and the former retinue of Alexander Nevsky Akinf the Great, which ended in the death of the latter. The chronicle also informs us that "the nurse, Prince Boyar Ostey, was wounded by a spear on a toy." That is, there were many similarities, but ... occupying a place in the middle between the West and the East, they scooped both "ottol" and "resettlement". Very accurately about the originality of Russian weapons in the XVII century. in his treatise "Politics" wrote Yuri Krizhanich - a Serbian scribe who lived at that time in Russia. “In the methods of military affairs, we (Russians — AK) occupy a middle place between the Scythians (that is, the Tatars and Turks) and the Germans. Scythians are especially strong only with light weapons, Germans only with heavy weapons; we conveniently use the one and the other, and with sufficient success we can imitate both of the aforementioned peoples, although we will not be equal to them. We surpass the Scythians with heavy weapons, and with light we come close to them; with the Germans, on the contrary. Therefore, against both of us, we must use both kinds of weapons and create an advantage in our position ”[5,224]. And perhaps better than him, no matter how hard you try, you will not say!

References

1. Nicolle, D. Armies of Medieval Russia 750 - 1250. UK. Oxford: Osprey (Men-at-arms series No. 333), 1999.
2. Nicolle, D. Arms and Armor of the Crusading Era, 1050 - 1350. UK. L .: Greenhill Books. Vol. 2. PP 85 - 87.
3. Nicolle, D. Raiders of the Ice War. Medieval Warfar: Teutonic Knights ambush Lithuanian Raiders // Military illustrated. UK. Vol. 94. March. 1996.
4. Shpakovsky, V., Nicolle, D. Medieval Russian Armies 1250 - 1500. UK. Oxford: Osprey (Men-at-arms No. 367). 2002.
5. Kirpichnikov A.N. Burial of a warrior of the 12th-13th centuries from the southern Kiev region (based on materials from the AIM exposition) // Collection of studies and materials from the Artillery Historical Museum. Vol. 4. L., 1959. with. 219-226.
6. Shpakovsky, V.O., Nikolle, D. Russian army. 1250 - 1500. M .: AST: Astrel ", 2004.
7. Shpakovsky, V.O. Modern English-speaking historians about the warriors of the East and the knights of the West // Questions of history, 2009. No.8.

To be continued ...

Comments

[Nikolaevich I]

Well, that touched on this topic! The topic is very interesting (!) And, I can assume, is not known to many! The topic of this is Russian armor (classification) .... "We are accustomed to" we, basically, to Russian chain mail; but other types of armor were also common (!): baydans, shells, bekhtertsy, yushmans, kolontari ... "Old Russian" shell is not that plate armor or, even, a cuirass, which we often call in vain "shell", but " a kind of "chain mail from rings, smaller than in" usual "chain mail! Baydana, on the contrary ... from larger rings! Bekhterets, yushman - ring-plate armor ... In general, here "write and write"! What I wish Vyacheslav!

[kalibr]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

"Old Russian" armor is not the same plate armor or, even, the cuirass, which we often call in vain "armor", but a "variety" of chain mail from rings that are smaller than in the "usual" chain mail!

Chapygin wrote about this well in his novel "People Walking".

[Edward Vashchenko]

We got used to "mainly Russian chain mail; but other types of armor were also widespread (!): Baydans, shells, bekhtertsy, yushmans, kolontari ...

You are wrong here. It all depends on the historical period.
All these types of armor are a later period and are not related to the early one.
In the article the upper bound of 1350, these types of armor only appear.
And the general name for armor in the early period is “armor”, chain mail is still a modern term.
Again, for the early 6 period, as rightly indicated, there were two types of lamellar or lamellar (surviving images) and annular (archeology).

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Eduard Vaschenko

You are wrong here. It all depends on the historical period.

You just didn't understand my comment or didn't read it carefully! I did not mean a specific period! I meant a more detailed history of Russian weapons and armor in particular! What is my appeal to Vyacheslav! And I did not reason "what in what year" appeared and "how and what was called in the early period, and what in the later"! Not all "modern Russians" know that in Russia there were not only chain mail, but also yushmans, tegilai, etc. ! Generally! So I think your "claims" are not correct ...

[Edward Vashchenko]

Vladimir, no problem. I agree, the information would be interesting.

[fuxila]

It’s interesting about weapons, but the author shouldn’t say so confidently that “the First Principality of Russia arose in the XNUMXth century, partly as a result of Scandinavian penetration along great rivers.” Firstly, this topic is still the subject of discussion between Normanists and anti-Normanists. Secondly, the Scandinavians could not penetrate deep into Russian lands, because their drakkars were not adapted to travel along our rivers, much less dragging them. The sword from the Metropolitan Museum of Art is unlikely to be Scandinavian, most likely a Frankish sword (possibly also with the stigma of Ulfbert), they were used on the entire Baltic coast.

[kalibr]

You carefully read the text. Not a line ... It says that this is an authorized translation of the work of the English historian D.Nikol with all the advantages and disadvantages. So to speak, an example of what TAM writes about US. The quotation marks even give some paragraphs that are particularly close to the original.

[fuxila]

I confess, I am sinful, I missed the introduction and immediately proceeded to the text. All claims against Nicolas, as I see the parasite, so I will express everything to him.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: fuxila

this topic is still the subject of discussion between Normanists and anti-Normanists.

In the scientific community, this discussion has ceased to exist for half a century. Passion in this area is supported exclusively by folkhistorics and other freaks like Klesov, who in fact heads this camarilla. These discussions have nothing to do with historical science.

Quote: fuxila

Scandinavians could not penetrate deep into Russian lands

This must be told to archaeologists, they, poor, just believe that they could. Apparently not about the drakars. Well, a huge number of Scandinavian finds on the Dnieper and Volga can not speak of their presence in these regions in any way because ... Just because.
In fact, dracars with a meter draft could go quite far, especially during the autumn and spring floods. In addition, in those places where obstacles began, the Scandinavians built factories with a constant presence. At these strongholds, they calmly transplanted from sea vessels to river vessels and moved on, leaving their large and heavy drakkars ashore guarded.
Our ancient ancestors - Slavs, Scandinavians, Finno-Ugrians were stubborn and were not fools. And they knew how to achieve the goals that they set for themselves. Think about what you yourself would do if you desperately needed to systematically get goods from the Baltic to the Volga and back. This is exactly the picture we are seeing.

Quote: fuxila

The sword from the Metropolitan Museum is hardly Scandinavian

A huge number of such swords were found. And they, basically, are precisely Scandinavian, as well as all the equipment accompanying them up to, probably, up to the XI century.

[fuxila]

In what scientific environment did this discussion cease to exist half a century ago? I don’t want to waste time looking, but I have on my desk a collection of articles by the Institute of History of the Russian Academy of Sciences "Varyago-Russian question in historiography" for 2010 and a more recent publication by A. Paul "Baltic Slavs" for 2016. I cannot judge Klyosov or not, qualifications do not allow, and if you write so confidently about him, can you give links to your scientific works in which you defeated this "charlatan"? I will definitely not regret the time for reading them.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: fuxila

I’ll definitely not regret the time to read them.

Read better than real scientists. From the point of view of genetics, Balanovsky did not leave a stone unturned from Klesov, from the point of view of history, for example, Klein. Look at the articles on the site "gene pool ru". As for LJ, I recommend that you treat the information published there with caution - too many amateurs are now trying to make historical discoveries of cosmic proportions.
Regarding the collection of RAS - did you read it? What do they write in it?
And who is A. Paul? I have not read his works and am not sure that I have lost something. For me, a person who publishes on the "reformat" does not inspire confidence in advance.

[fuxila]

And by what criterion do you determine who is a real scientist and who is not? I understand that if a Normanist, then a real one, and if an anti-Normanist, then a charlatan. If you do not consider it necessary to track the works on the history of Ancient Russia, in particular, the works of Fomin, Kuzmin and Sakharov, then why bear this blizzard about the fact that "the discussion has ceased to exist for half a century."
For you, Paul is not an authority, but for me, Klein. In his work “The Varangian Dispute”, for example, on pages 60-61 he writes about a famous episode from the Bertin annals that suspicious ambassadors arrived at the French king Louis the Pious in 837, who turned out to be Swedes. So in this place, Klein turned everything upside down: firstly, it was in 839; secondly, Louis was not the French king, but the Frankish emperor; thirdly, the embassy was not from the hackan of Rosov, but from the Byzantines, and the dew stuck to them, because could not return home from Constantinople the same direct route, and the Byzantines promised them help. This set of absurdities in Klein says something. On page 70, the name Vladimir has a German-Celtic Voldemar. Interestingly, but Vladislav, Vladivoy, Vladibud, etc., how should they sound in German-Celtic? On page 71, the common Slavic Yaroslav for some reason is originally East Slavic, like Vera, Nadezhda Lyubov, who are actually Christian — tracing paper from the translation of the Latin names of the martyrs Fides, Spes, Caritas.
I looked about Balanovsky, and from him did not leave stone upon stone. Which of them is right there, I don’t know, but Klesov, as a normal scientist, offers everyone to roll it out in scientific articles, so I ask you, since you consider yourself an expert in the field of DNA genealogy, how did you wipe your nose for this " freak. "
As for the RAS compilation, I read it like that, otherwise I wouldn’t refer to it, but as for retelling it to you, what should it look like, ring in the evenings and read the future?

[Trilobite Master]

I am now out of town, the Internet is intermittent. To answer you substantively and reasonably with the corresponding links, I need to either be at home or on the fast Internet.
Perhaps we are arguing about different things and by the term "anti-Normanism" we mean different things. If you mean the Slavic origin of Rurik and the absence of any participation of the Scandinavians in the formation of the Russian state, as Klesov claims, this is one thing, if you want to argue about the degree of this participation (also a kind of anti-Normanism), this is another. In the first case, I have no desire to argue with you, I'm tired of repeating myself. If there is a second option, I am ready to challenge your theses, if you formulate them.
As for the controversy between Klesov and Balanovsky, evaluating its results in such a way as you do, for me, is at least strange. It is unlikely that we will be able to find a common language, since we evaluate the same phenomenon differently.

[fuxila]

I do not attribute myself to either Normanists or their opponents, I read information and try to analyze whose arguments are more convincing. I do not deny the influence of the Normans, the question is only in its degree. It is pointless to discuss with you, since what can we talk about with a person for whom this issue has been closed for 50 years now. I do not evaluate Klesov and Balanovsky at all, because incompetent in this matter, this should be done by specialists.

[IS-80_RVGK2]

Quote: Trilobite Master

and other freaks like Klesov

He certainly has a decent amount of cockroaches in his head. But you still have not provided any evidence of your point of view regarding him. Maybe because you need to at least a little understanding of the issue? And all the historians who smash Klesov Nichrome do not understand either genetics or DNA genealogy.

[karabass]

Sorry, you started right, but in the end why lie? Even as they could and penetrated! Excavated by excavations (although it’s possible not in fights, the story is silent about this) and from HISTORICAL documents it is known that they were in the Caspian Sea

[fuxila]

I am not engaged in lies, but as a person I can be mistaken, but in this case there are also studies that refute the possibility of the Scandinavians traveling on their ships along the path "from the Varangians to the Greeks." I don't want to dig into books, I just typed on the Internet and immediately gives out a lot of things, for example:
https://alex-oleyni.livejournal.com/55196.html
It is pointless to deny the presence of the Scandinavians in Russian lands, archeology and sagas really speak about this, the whole question is in what quality they were present here. For example, the sagas report that they went to the service of the Russian princes as mercenaries, even representatives of royal blood, and not as masters, and this was at a relatively late time, when Russia already took place as a state.
And from what historical documents does it follow that the Scandinavians sailed in the Caspian Sea?

[karabass]

Ibn letter - Isfandyar Shirvan - Shah's library of Cairo

[fuxila]

I read this letter and never found a mention of the Scandinavians either in general or in particular (candles, dans, norwegians). Everywhere mention Russ, whose origin is the subject of discussion. Or a few letters and I missed something?

[karabass]

Several letters from different sources. in one, Normans are written in another Russ about the same events. There is also a letter which says: Russ came with their Slavic slaves.
the conclusion that Muslims called the Scandinavians Rus

[fuxila]

It is very similar, but I am confused by the moment that the Arabs and Persians use the name "Normans", i.e. in German "northern people". Why would it suddenly? The Arabs distorted European names beyond recognition, so Caesar-Augusta became Zaragoza for them. Or is it a free translation of the translator, but in fact there is some other name?

[karabass]

I can’t say for sure how I myself used the translation from Arabic into Russian
why do you need this? are there really doubts? Are you a proponent of alternative hypotheses? I am a supporter of orthodox theories.
In addition, I heard something about several stones with runes about Ingvar the Traveler,
the Scandinavian arrowheads in the Caucasus were also found (excavations at the site)
In general, I am not strong in pre-Horde history, although I was digging a pre-Horde hillfort in a floodplain 30 km from Lenisk. We have unearthed an alabaster sarcophagus! And I would not want to enter into a historical dispute with an alternative specialist! if you are he, then I refuse to participate in the discussion, I'm sorry

[fuxila]

I do not understand what you mean by an alternative story in this case. I am fond of the history of Ancient Russia and periodically review materials on this topic, although I do not consider myself a specialist, therefore I do not particularly want to discuss this topic, although there is still some benefit, I have not heard anything about Ibn-Isfandyar before. So thanks for the info.

[Nadir shah]

The problem is that the finds have long since confirmed everything, there can be no discussion there (and not only that, by the way). I am already silent that the word "rus" is from the Finnish language and the Finns called them Scandinavians.

[Edward Vashchenko]

Vyacheslav Olegovich is an excellent review, and the link to your article in "VI" is very strong.
About the Gun - he was always surprised at the approach, although this practice was stopped at the State Historical Museum and at the Artillery Museum.
In their defense, I’ll say that also in the Madrid Arsenal, the collection is not smaller in size, and maybe more than the Vienna Hovburg, but can’t be used.

[kalibr]

Good morning, dear Edward! Strange things do happen here ... In Moscow, they didn’t let me into the Pushkin Museum for free on the card of the Federation of Journalists, but ... they let me through without a word to St. Basil's and the English courtyard. In Paris, they were allowed everywhere, except ... the Cluny Museum. In Spain, everywhere and with reverence, except for the cathedral in Girona - "our church is separated from the state!" In Venice, the Doges were not allowed into the palace, they had to pay, but they were allowed into the maritime museum. Although there is an agreement on culture in Europe and we signed it, and so did our friend. But when he turned to Hovburg with a request to give "permission" to use their photos, they gave them without a bad word, right there ... It's all strange, somehow, beyond the power of the mind.

[Edward Vashchenko]

Good morning!
Yes, with a federation card, strong!
I forgot about museums in Italy for sure, that's where don't go there, go here, in the Doge's Museum - yes, especially since there is a lot of "knightly" material there.
But the most interesting story I had in the Museum of Archeology in Rome, a large collection of my favorite period: V-VII century, I photograph the Lombard spaths, we are alone in the museum with my wife, he works through the stump of the deck, it's hard to get there. A lady comes, the director turned out to be, scolding employees: it’s not difficult to understand why these people take pictures. We explain, historian, this topic is in the circle of interests. Good, she says, what language are you reading? German - yes, Italian - no. Gone. Comes and brings three volumes - all the graves of the Lombards: a detailed catalog, one volume in Italian, two in German.
This is a gift to you as a historian - no, why, are you ready to pay, no, this is a gift. Conversations, then yes, in short, a gift from the Museum, just do not take pictures, what it is about!
Only then I looked at the price, 160 Euro.
That happens.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Eduard Vaschenko

In their defense I’ll say that also in the Madrid Arsenal,

This is not a defense, but rather an excuse rather. But in fact - they simply ruin the interest in the history of the country, putting the publication of images on a commercial stream, or simply putting the exhibits in storage, where there is no easy way. I do not understand this, here I completely agree with the author.

“The price of the right to publish one image of a museum item on the site is 6500 rubles.”

[Edward Vashchenko]

or simply by putting the exhibits in storage,

that's for sure!
The Pushkin Museum, also known as the Museum of Casts, focuses on PR campaigns with imported paintings, having Schliemann's gold in storehouses, reducing the exposure of one of the world's largest collections of Egyptian fabrics and, modestly not exhibiting, a collection of "barbaric" weapons 4-7 centuries.

[Wildcat]

Quote: Edward Vashchenko

in the Madrid Arsenal, the size of the collection is not less, and maybe more than Vienna's Hovburg, but can not be used.

It was somehow quite tough in taking pictures and communicating with the staff - even when I had to politely ask why the plate gloves were confused on the armor - just an impolite smile was the answer. By the way, not very far there is a naval museum with a good collection of weapons, albeit not so famous and with sane personnel.

[kalibr]

Kind people are everywhere! And smart in addition ... And anyway ... You're in luck. I am similarly lucky in Cyprus. In the Museum of Archeology of Larnaca there was a student-intern. Well, I didn't want to let it in ... I called the director. He explained everything in Greek and very temperamentally: "The press" ... As a result, they let me, my wife, and my granddaughter free of charge ... It was a decent cost savings.

[Edward Vashchenko]

Yes, the world is not without good people

[Trilobite Master]

Vyacheslav Olegovich, as always, thanks for the article.
Still, I would not have become familiar with the history of Russia through the works of Nicolas. Not only are his "strokes" on this topic too broad, as is his characteristic, but they are also not always accurate. It is felt that the author has no particular interest in this topic, and he mentions Russia simply because she "was somewhere there and something was happening there," nothing more. Something like "I know that somewhere in the east there was also Russia, and so, about the same thing happened there."

[Operator]

Nicole lies as she breathes: "The only urbanized culture in this direction was the culture of the Volga Bulgars, who lived in the middle basin of the Volga and Kama. This Turkic-Islamic state was, in turn, more perfect than the early medieval Russian state" Bulgars, many times defeated to the ground by the Khazars, the Slavs of Svyatoslav and finally the Mongol-Tatars, managed to become a "perfect", and even more so an "Islamic" state?

The same deceitful approach is also characteristic of modern foreign authors and their local fans - for example, the author of the current opus previously noted in the copy-paste of Western materials about the great and terrible Mordovian warriors of the Middle Ages, allegedly from head to toe dressed in armor and armed to the teeth with every imaginable and unthinkable types of knives. As an indisputable fact, impolite pictures of modern foreign authors were presented.

What was actually expected turned out to be complete disintegration - on the profile Mordovian (sic!) Site it is unequivocally said that the Mordovians, until they entered the Russian Kingdom, had never had weapons, better than carpenter's axes. And all the pictures of the super-duper "Mordovian" soldiers are nothing more than brazenly redrawn illustrations of the weapons of the Russian troops of the 16th century.

[kalibr]

Photos under your nose!

[Operator]

You are like a little - post fantasy and trump them

[kalibr]

Quote: Trilobite Master

Still, I would not have become familiar with the history of Russia through the works of Nicolas. Not only are his "strokes" on this topic too broad, as is his characteristic, but they are also not always accurate. It is felt that the author has no particular interest in this topic, and he mentions Russia simply because she "was somewhere there and something was happening there," nothing more. Something like "I know that somewhere in the east there was also Russia, and so, about the same thing happened there."

And who is arguing? But you need to know ...

[Engineer]

In the picture, Nicolas militia crossbowman - militia (!!!) in chain mail and helmet. Somehow over the edge in my opinion.
A real crossbow bolt sticks out of the boyar’s shield, not a Mongol arrow. Well this is a quibble, of course.
For the review work, there is not enough illustrated conclusion about how, with the Mongol invasion, predominantly western influence is replaced by mainly eastern. Armor 14 is placed in front of samples of an earlier period, which enhances the hash of perception.
There are no special complaints about the author. A huge amount of material clearly prevented the structure of the article - "eyes ran up" Although I would still divide into two articles before and after the Mongols. And it is convenient and justified from a historical, technical-cultural and methodological point of view

[nathanael]

Respect to the author .. Judging by the list of literature, he worked quite well .. Very informative ... But as always a small fly in the ointment ... The Eurasian nomadic powers are mentioned ... I would like to develop this topic ... Where when and with what weapons. ..

[kalibr]

Quote: Nathanael

a small fly in the ointment ... The Eurasian nomadic powers are mentioned .. I would like to develop this topic ... Where, when and with what weapons ...

It’s impossible to cover everything in a small popular material. About nomads here were my articles ...

[yehat]

Quote: Eduard Vaschenko

Again, for the early 6 period, as rightly indicated, there were two types of lamellar or lamellar (surviving images) and annular (archeology).

in Russia regularly collected a militia
it was the warriors who flaunted their armor, and the peasants lacked even simple chain mail and made various replacements - from durable leather or cotton or other robes that came from the east to ersatz replacements of armor in the style of Greek or Macedonian when they hung multilayer analogues of a bakhterets from more accessible materials - for example, linen ropes with reinforcing inserts.
it was not by chance that the eastern armaments won - it made it possible to mobilize a fully combat-ready army of several thousand people. But this rarely worked well in Russia before Ivan the Terrible due to the archaic nature of the economy.

[Han Tengri]

Quote: yehat

in Russia regularly collected a militia

Yah? In what century? Where is this said?

Quote: yehat

these warriors flaunted in armor, and the peasants lacked even simple chain mail ..

Why armor for those who centuries from the X || does not go to war, from the word "absolutely"?

Quote: yehat

it’s no coincidence that eastern arms won - it made it possible to mobilize a fully combat-ready army of several thousand people.

From the peasants? Those. the tegilai peasant pulls on himself, a paper hat, girdles with a saber, takes a composite bow and rides one mob to mobilize? Although, no - he runs on foot. From where did the smerd loot on two war horses! On a decent bow, he, perhaps, also will not scrape ... And on a saber ... Yes, and tagilai, go, not three kopecks! So your "militia" will have to run into the attack with one bare seat and an ax.

[Edward Vashchenko]

I would not agree with you.
Why, and noted above, that in different periods different types of armor were used, of course, everything was complicated.
For the period of the X-XIII centuries, peasants did not exist, and the "agricultural worker" was a husband, he was a howl, he was a militia. This was the main composition of the city (the city-state of Ancient Rus), they were the main fighters, the squad was princely - another story. Armament of the warriors, perhaps, was not inferior to the warriors, in the sources there is not a word about this, the difference is that for the husbands the war was an additional activity, there were often cases when the cities fought without a prince, and for the warrior - the main one, so to speak "professionally".
Smerd is a rural resident of a different ethnic origin, an analogue to him in Rome is a fiscal slave, that is, dependent on the whole community and working for the whole community - from captured or captured tribes.
With the decline in the importance of cities after the Mongol defeat - it was the militia who perished defending their cities, and changes in the military organization, the role of the squad increases, and later, the formation of the noble cavalry takes place, but! for the Muscovite state, service people are everything, and not as is customary in historiography, only "who is horse, crowded and amicable," therefore, to assert that a free community member or black people could not serve in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries is not true. Soldiers and monasteries were displayed.
The formation of a special noble military corporation begins in the 16th century and then it goes slowly until the Time of Troubles, the first Civil War, when the nobles clearly defined their priorities and the need for enslaving the peasants as a necessary condition of service. Something like this.
See: I.Ya. Froyanov, A.Yu. Dvornichenko, Yu.V. Krivosheev, Yu.G. Alekseev.

[Han Tengri]

.

Quote: Eduard Vaschenko

Armament of howling, perhaps not inferior to combatants,

Those. as I understand it, howling (militia), functionally, on the battlefield is the same combatant. EMNIP in X ||| at. the warrior’s weapons complex included, at a minimum: a horse (something like a destrie), a deep knight’s saddle, stirrups, spurs, a long spear, an almond-shaped shield, a helmet, a sword, chain mail, bracers, and chain stockings.

Quote: Eduard Vaschenko

and "agricultural worker" husband, he is howl, he is a militia. This was the main composition of the city (the city-state of Ancient Rus), they were the main fighting,

Could all "agricultural workers" afford this? Or only "the best people of the city" (c)? Should a "agricultural worker" be considered a full-fledged militia who is not capable of acquiring a worthy horse? And the one who has nothing but pitchfork and rake?

[Edward Vashchenko]

MNIP in X ||| at. the warrior’s weapons complex included, at a minimum: a horse (something like destrie), a deep knight’s saddle, a stirrup, spurs, a long spear, an almond-shaped shield, a helmet, a sword, chain mail, bracers, and chain stockings.

This is all speculation in which monuments are listed? Can you name it?
Only the work of A.N. Kirpichnikov, yes, fundamental in armament, but outdated from the point of view of what we know about the social development of society in Ancient Russia: You write about a certain "knight" that was not in Ancient Russia: no feudalism - no knight. The squads, yes, but they are few in number, otherwise the cities could not tell the princes: the path is clear, translating from Old Russian - out.

I understand that this is difficult to understand right away, since you are most likely not familiar with the theory of city-states; I have listed historians above.
Therefore, while the dispute does not make sense.

If you are interested in a modern view of this period, and not historiography of only fifty years ago, look at these works, they are available on the Internet, and then, if you wish, we will argue.
Sincerely, Edward

[kalibr]

Quote: Engineer

A huge amount of material clearly prevented the structure of the article - "eyes ran up" Although I would still divide into two articles before and after the Mongols.

Without any doubt. But the article is written within the framework of a specific topic. What "their" historians write about us. I can, in principle, expand the scope, but there will be new questions and so on without end.

[Engineer]

If this is about "their" historians about us, then the abundant use of Viskovaty looks somewhat "Frankenstein")) If "our" material is used for comparison and deepening, then Kirpichnikov or Gorelik + Nicole is more logical. Moreover, Gorelik either wrote for Osprey or did works in a similar style. He draws no worse than Nicolas. There would be wine, wine. With the ownership, however, it would have to be confused.
The division into two halves "before and after the Mongols" is not an extension, but a deepening that would benefit everyone. Especially to us as readers. EVERYTHING is subjective, of course.

[kalibr]

Photo under the nose. From the museum! Linking to a site, even Mordovian, is stupid. Copy-paste of a foreign article was supposed to be in a foreign one. If in Russian - this is a translation.
Linking to a site, even Mordovian, is stupid. You must refer to the dissertation on this topic, which was done in the article you indicated. In the drawings there were no warriors in armor. In the book of Nicolas, the Mordovian warrior does not have it. And finally, what prevented the Mordovian soldiers from killing a Russian from taking off his chain mail and helmet?

[Operator]

Quote: kalibr

that prevented the Mordovian soldiers, having killed the Russian, from taking off his chain mail and helmet

It is known that "what" - Russians

[kalibr]

Quote: fuxila

The sword from the Metropolitan Museum is hardly Scandinavian

He is Scandinavian, Alexey!

[Edward Vashchenko]

I rummaged through the archive: here is my photo of the inscription to the sword from the Metropolitan: Master Hartolf.

[kalibr]

Thanks Edward! Helped a lot ...

[kalibr]

Quote: Engineer

True, it would be necessary to confuse with ownership.

That's it!

[kalibr]

Quote: Wildcat

not so famous and with sane staff.

I’ll be sure to see. Thank!

[kalibr]

Quote: Engineer

Moreover, Gorelik wrote for Osprey

He wrote for another publisher.

[Pful]

The social strata from which the branches of the armed forces were formed are not clear. For example, border time 10th century, picture "Russian foot soldiers of the 12th - XNUMXth centuries. Drawing from the book of AV Viskovatov." On the one hand, they could be the warriors of the tribal militia of the last years of its existence, on the other hand, they could be simply dismounted, in accordance with the combat mission, the prince's horse warriors. This is hinted at by the following drawing "Equestrian warrior of the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries. Drawing from the book of AV Viskovatov." Further, it is said about a certain numerous armored infantry of Novgorod. Who are they, if not consider the siege as an enemy of Novgorod itself? The city is rich, I admit that there were armor in the warehouses. But not every artisan can be driven out into the field to implement the prince's military plans. And artisans with military training were already in the city horse regiment, or in the metropolitan's regiment. Since the XNUMXth century, according to modern historians, all armies were cavalry and tiny. Basically, only the princely squads. They have Carolingian swords. For in Russia only one high-quality sword with the mark of a Russian blacksmith was found.

[kalibr]

Quote: Engineer

If this is about "their" historians about us, then the abundant use of Viskovaty

Denis! And about the difficulties with getting a photo, haven't you read? Only illustrations were taken from Viskovaty ... Now, if you are ready to sponsor, then tomorrow there will be excellent photos from the Kremlin Armory - Shuisky's chain mail, and bakhter's, and Boris Godunov's baidan ... that's all. It's up to the "grandmas".

[Engineer]

This is where there will be no such photos, even if I sponsor, the historical period is not the same.)))
Offtopic: what about the ownership of the illustrations of the author who are not alive, not in the know? Going to the publisher?

[yehat]

Quote: HanTengri

Why armor for those who centuries from the X || does not go to war, from the word "absolutely"?

but nothing that the cities regularly besieged and the war itself came to the people?
how many times did Novgorod fight back? But didn’t they burn Moscow? And Torzhok?

[kalibr]

Quote: Engineer

Offtopic: what about the ownership of the illustrations of the author who are not alive, not in the know? Going to the publisher?

There are a lot of casuistry. Rights to 70 years go to relatives. But the publisher also owns the rights to the contract. For 3-5 years they are publishers — then relatives.

[Engineer]

Thank you, this is of course cruel.

[asay63]

The article is interesting, thanks!
But it is very replete with the Scandinavian penetration of heavy weapons. The arming of the warriors of that time of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania is similar to the arming of the warriors of Russia, does this mean that there is Scandinavian penetration?
As far as I know, the Baltic and Western Slavs were no worse armed and even crushed the troops of the German emperors. Did they have "Scandinavia" too?)
I understand that this is a foreign writer, but why hang these labels ???

[kalibr]

Quote: asay63

I understand that this is a foreign writer, but why hang these labels ???

Without labels, there is no effect. A liberal, a hire of the State Department, an English spy, an agent of international imperialism ...

[asay63]

Without labels, there is no effect. A liberal, a hire of the State Department, an English spy, an agent of international imperialism ...

And why not?
Even if we take into account that in the idea of ​​Rurik's "Scandinavian" implanted in us, the Russian wars could receive heavy weapons only from the Scandinavians, although purely logically they could have received it from any other neighbors at that time or created them themselves. at that time, archaeologists trace the migration of Western Slavs with more developed crafts and culture ...

You know, if not on the subject, then I will briefly tell you an example: recently I went to the Varyags page on the wiki and found out that: "... In Russia, Varangians were called people from Scandinavia." This statement in the Russian version refers to foreign member of the Swedish Academy. Gustav Adolf, Chief Researcher of the Institute of Oriental Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Doctor of Historical Sciences, Candidate of Philological Sciences Melnikova E.A. Well, how can you challenge the doctor? Everything is simple for her: "Varangians are a collective designation of Scandal. Peoples in Ancient Rus" and the discussion itself is closed on the victory of "Normanists" "The confrontation between" Normanists "and" anti-Normanists "has lost meaning in the context civilizational approach to covering history".

I tried to correct for a more logical version: "... natives of the Baltic Sea", but my edits were canceled. Who asked? He was a student at the European University in St. Petersburg. By the way, it is very interesting from which funds this institute is financed, you can see Soros ...
Everything would be fine, and even let them write what they want, this is their opinion, but no, they do not impose this opinion, so to speak, they are struggling with other versions. And how many students write reports and take information from the wiki. For the rest of my life it’s postponed that the Russians descended from the Varangians, the Varangians are Scandinavians ...

I can’t tell you whether the liberals or the hires of the State Department, British spies or agents of international imperialism are doing this, but this is not funny!

[kalibr]

Quote: asay63

By the way, it’s very interesting from what funds this institution is being financed, you can see Soros ...

The activities of the Soros Foundation in the Russian Federation have been banned since 2002.

[asay63]

The activities of the Soros Foundation in the Russian Federation have been banned since 2002.

In 2005 — 2009, EUSP was 17 in the world in terms of funding received from the George Soros Foundation's Open Society Institute

[kalibr]

Quote: asay63

"The confrontation between the" Normanists "and the" Anti-Normanists "has lost meaning in the context of the civilizational approach to the coverage of history."

But this is true.

[asay63]

But this is true.

And who won?

Rurikovo Gorodishche appears no later than the end of the 860s. A baking oven is being built in Gorodishche, which is dendrochronologically dated to the fence in the years 889–896 and has full analogues in Gdansk and Szczecin. Which directly indicates direct links with the Slavic South Baltic region. Represented (about 0,5-1% of all finds) and Scandinavian things, at the same time there is an even greater amount of ceramics and arrowheads having roots in West Slavic cultures
The findings of scientists made on the rivers and lakes of the north-west of Russia do not confirm the Norman theory of the emergence of Russia.

[kalibr]

Quote: asay63

The findings of scientists made on the rivers and lakes of the north-west of Russia do not confirm the Norman theory of the emergence of Russia.

But were the Normans here? Were! Was the land inhabited before them? It was! What else do you need? Someone's% more, someone's less - that's all. And today no one talks about the% dominant influence of the Scandinavians on the development of Russia. But did it take place? Yes it did. ALL!

[asay63]

...ALL!

In your topic, a foreign author writes about the arrival of the Scandinavians for the reign, then you agree with him that everything is like this: “And again, there’s nothing offensive for us here. All according to our annals. ... and all the callers too fierce debate "Vocation of the Vikings" "
About the reign in Russia "Scandinavians" are not in the annals!
But what about the civilizational approach to covering history? Are there any disputes or not?

A foreign author takes as a basis the weapons of the Scandinavians from Russian soldiers, relying on the "vocation of the Varangians", and this is fundamentally wrong!
If the% of archaeological data on the Scandinavians is so scanty, it means that they had a corresponding military influence, which means that the foreign author has no idea about the armament of Russian soldiers.

[kalibr]

Quote: asay63

In 2005 — 2009, EUSP was 17 in the world in terms of funding received from the George Soros Foundation's Open Society Institute
Reply

If so, I can only rejoice for them. So in 2002 only grants were banned.

[asay63]

If so, I can only rejoice for them. So in 2002 only grants were banned.

You are talking about his other funds.

On November 30, 2015, the Prosecutor General's Office included the Open Society Foundation and the Open Society Institute the Assistance Foundation, established by George Soros, in the list of undesirable organizations

[kalibr]

Quote: asay63

A foreign author takes as a basis the weapons of the Scandinavians from Russian soldiers, relying on the "vocation of the Varangians", and this is fundamentally wrong!
If the% of archaeological data on the Scandinavians is so scanty, it means that they had a corresponding military influence, which means that the foreign author has no idea about the armament of Russian soldiers.

Are we talking about weapons or statehood? Whose swords are in the burials, huh?

[asay63]

Are we talking about weapons or statehood? Whose swords are in the burials, huh?

Note that I didn’t tie statehood to armaments, but in this case your author!

As far as I know, Carolingian and Romanesque were imported from Western Europe, and many of the hilt for them were made in Russia. There were local swords ...

[kalibr]

And what of it? What are you trying to prove to me? I don't really care at all. What he wrote. He wrote, I translated ... You write as you see fit and publish "there" an article about what exactly you think D. Nicolas is wrong. By the way, I did just that long ago, when I came across material about Prince Svyatoslav, where, as it seemed to me, there were inaccuracies, and my review was published. Now everything is possible. Do ... Only I personally do not need to prove anything.

[Nadir shah]

Quote: fuxila

I read this letter and never found a mention of the Scandinavians either in general or in particular (candles, dans, norwegians). Everywhere mention Russ, whose origin is the subject of discussion. Or a few letters and I missed something?

Finns called the Scandinavians Rus, and the Swedes are now called that.

[Nadir shah]

Quote: yehat

Quote: Eduard Vaschenko

Again, for the early 6 period, as rightly indicated, there were two types of lamellar or lamellar (surviving images) and annular (archeology).

in Russia regularly collected a militia
it was the warriors who flaunted their armor, and the peasants lacked even simple chain mail and made various replacements - from durable leather or cotton or other robes that came from the east to ersatz replacements of armor in the style of Greek or Macedonian when they hung multilayer analogues of a bakhterets from more accessible materials - for example, linen ropes with reinforcing inserts.
it was not by chance that the eastern armaments won - it made it possible to mobilize a fully combat-ready army of several thousand people. But this rarely worked well in Russia before Ivan the Terrible due to the archaic nature of the economy.

The point is rather in a stronger eastern influence in general, through nomads and Byzantium, and weaker ties with Western Europe. Especially since they mainly fought with the nomads.

[kalibr]

Quote: Nadir Shah

The point is rather in a stronger eastern influence in general, through nomads and Byzantium, and weaker ties with Western Europe.

Very well said!

[Dart]

Author, please write more! The topic is interesting ... and indeed, reminds me why I am still on this forum.
Authors and publications on this subject are immeasurable, and competent compilation is what you need!

[kalibr]

You are absolutely right.