Military Review

Russian pilots can be armed with PP-2000 instead of AKS-74U

123
Russian Ministry of Defense considers replacement weapons in a portable emergency reserve (NAZ) of pilots of the Russian Aerospace Forces. Instead of the currently used shortened machine gun AKS-74U, it is proposed to use a submachine gun PP-2000. This was reported by TASS, citing a source in the defense industry.


Russian pilots can be armed with PP-2000 instead of AKS-74U


The Ministry of Defense is considering the possibility of replacing the AKS-74U assault rifle with a more compact PP-2000 submachine gun in the NAZ, the agency’s source said. According to him, the military department with interest accepted this proposal.

It was proposed to consider the possibility of arming military pilots with a very compact PP-2000 instead of the AKS-74U. The Office has responded with interest to this proposal.

- writes the agency, while adding that there is no official confirmation of this information from the Ministry of Defense.

The pilot’s portable emergency reserve, secured under the ejection seat, includes, in addition to communications, medicine, water, food, etc., an AKSU assault rifle of 5,45X39 mm caliber, ammunition and grenades. The mass of the machine without cartridges is 2,7 kg, length with folded butt - 430 mm, with spread - 730 mm.

The PP-2000 submachine gun is designed for 9X19 mm cartridge, can use all cartridges of this caliber, including high-power armor-piercing 7Н21 and 7Н31, weight without magazine - 1,4 kg, magazine for 20 cartridges. Length with folded butt 350 mm, with spread - 582 mm, sighting range up to 100 meters. It is convenient for use by both right-handed and left-handed people, since the shutter handle and the magazine latch button can be reinstalled on either side.
Photos used:
https://yandex.ru/images/
123 comments
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  1. Potato
    Potato 16 August 2019 09: 50
    +9
    Oh well ... 5.45x39 and axes are more powerful than 9x19 in PP2000. If from the point of view of convenience and compact ty, then pp is better, and if you need to press the queue to the land of dushmans, then ax. For that matter, give the pilot a gun for self-defense, and spend the released weight on special equipment - communications, disguises, etc.
    1. Ezekiel 25-17
      Ezekiel 25-17 16 August 2019 09: 53
      -12
      AKSU has scatter ... In short, the effective firing range is 30 m.
      1. Potato
        Potato 16 August 2019 09: 58
        +6
        Yes, the scatter, but did you mean 300? How is it 30? The queue can go further half a kilometer. A solitary calm 100 meters into the chest figure. But pp can not
        1. Vladimir16
          Vladimir16 16 August 2019 10: 53
          -7
          Quote: Potato
          Yes, the scatter, but did you mean 300? How is it 30?

          It is up to thirty meters.
          Potato, apparently you are familiar with AKSU only on the Internet.
          You can get out of it only in milk.
          There is a lot of noise, but little use.
          Shuganut convicts, but civilians.
          1. mvd ru
            mvd ru 16 August 2019 11: 10
            +7
            Apparently, you are familiar with AKS 74 U only from the Internet !!! At the end of the 90s, I took part in the shooting competitions in Mytishchi, we fired 100 rounds at 10 m in single shots from a new, not shot ACS - I managed to hit the target with 6 bullets
            1. Vladimir16
              Vladimir16 16 August 2019 11: 44
              -11
              In the service, during the shooting, those who dragged the AKSU around the state put him aside and took the AKS.
              Otherwise, all targets remained untouched. Hitting from AKSU is only a matter of chance.
              After the first stage, this misunderstanding sends bullets wherever he wants.
              But this is in the service, in the army ...
              And even if you keep this machine gun to shine, he doesn’t shoot a target even with the first cartridge.

              And the fact that you did there at the shooting in Mytishchi is your personal pride and honor. love
              1. mvd ru
                mvd ru 16 August 2019 12: 53
                +15
                The service is different ... my standard armament was PM and AKS-74U, since even the first cartridge does not fly at your target, it shows that the shooter from you is not good laughing PS Give a flower to your wife ....
                1. Vladimir16
                  Vladimir16 16 August 2019 14: 10
                  -4
                  You probably from the PM for a hundred meters grumbled right on target? laughing

                  At the World Cup and the Olympics took gold? wink

                  It seems like just a show off is cheap.

                  But judging by the pluses and minuses, the Pontus is trusted by part of the population in the SA who did not serve.

                  ps served with PM and AKC. Depending on the guard.
                  They trained to shoot accurately and understand weapons before service. Fortunately, in the USSR it was just at will.
                  The army gave the practice of daily use of military weapons.
                  Army soldiers are not trained to shoot accurately. Learn to own weapons. There is a difference. The significant difference.
                  I did not repent the gold of the Olympics, but I did not suffer insanity (shooting from a pistol at 100 meters) either.
                2. Nikolay Dyaglev
                  Nikolay Dyaglev 16 August 2019 19: 29
                  +1
                  VV Convoy zk?
              2. aws4
                aws4 18 August 2019 06: 14
                -2
                how beautiful you lie and do not blush Vladimir))))))))))) Vladimir16 is your age?)))) and where to find the truth? in your service it’s true it’s not clear which one it was, but according to my urgent one, it’s completely different ... according to the standard growth and the calculation machine-gun shot and nothing fell))))
            2. Yarik
              Yarik 16 August 2019 14: 37
              +5
              how can you compare the shooting range and the real battle? axu is not for battle. this is an unsuccessful vyser under the AK-74
          2. Ingenegr
            Ingenegr 16 August 2019 11: 12
            +13
            Wow, a statement ... In general, a good shooter from a high-quality AKS-74U, which has been brought to normal combat with single shots at 100 meters, rarely comes out in a series of 10 shots beyond size "9". Shooting from a prone position, of course. But here, of course, you need the ability to competently bring the weapon to normal combat and the ability to shoot. And if there is neither one nor the other, then 30 meters is a lot.
            By the way, when shooting at a range of up to 300 m, the AKS-74U allows you to work well on waist and height figures both in single and in bursts. Another thing is that it is relatively short. The short barrel heats up quickly and willingly. There is already physics, you can’t deceive it.
            1. Vladimir16
              Vladimir16 16 August 2019 11: 58
              +3
              Quote: Ingenegr
              In general, a good shooter from the AKS-74U qualitatively reduced to a normal battle ...

              A "good shooter" will not associate fate with this weapon.
              Dog breeders, pilots, tankers are forced to pick it up, as it is small in size.
              And the basic tasks these soldiers solve without this machine (dog, plane, tank ...)
              This machine is for them in extreme cases.

              Both the command and the rank and file are well aware of the capabilities of this weapon.
              No need to ascribe to him what is not in sight.

              For close combat, in a critical situation, it wouldn’t bring melee. But not more. hi
              1. Ingenegr
                Ingenegr 16 August 2019 12: 29
                +10
                Quote: Vladimir16
                Quote: Ingenegr
                In general, a good shooter from the AKS-74U qualitatively reduced to a normal battle ...

                A "good shooter" will not associate fate with this weapon.
                Dog breeders, pilots, tankers are forced to pick it up, as it is small in size.
                And the basic tasks these soldiers solve without this machine (dog, plane, tank ...)
                This machine is for them in extreme cases.

                Both the command and the rank and file are well aware of the capabilities of this weapon.
                No need to ascribe to him what is not in sight.

                For close combat, in a critical situation, it wouldn’t bring melee. But not more. hi

                By the way, the main weapon among pilots is under the wings of an aircraft on AKU and MZD. Automatic, etc. - Well, for the most extreme case.
                You don't need to "attribute" anything to a short one - you just need to know it and be able to handle it. Someone knows and can (I, for example), while prefers to deal with the right weapon - AK-74 and its full-size variations.
                Yes, the AKS-74U is a stub. But as a weapon "just in case" is more than suitable.
          3. alex967
            alex967 18 August 2019 06: 36
            -1
            In our unit, the ACSU was tied to a grenade launcher, shot and taught to launch grenade launchers. And not if not 30 meters.
          4. bbtcs
            bbtcs 18 August 2019 07: 54
            -1
            Girls with posters?
        2. Ezekiel 25-17
          Ezekiel 25-17 16 August 2019 11: 03
          +1
          Quote: Potato
          Yes, the scatter, but did you mean 300? How is it 30? The queue can go further half a kilometer. A solitary calm 100 meters into the chest figure. But pp can not

          And so: I had to use both AKM and Ak-74 and AKSU. Shooting from AKSU at 300 meters is pointless, the spread is due to a short barrel. So believe me: you will not get out of it at the distances you declared. You can go to the shooting range and try. The effective firing range from AKSU 30 is a maximum of 50 meters, further from the crafty one.
          1. Doctor
            Doctor 16 August 2019 12: 02
            +6
            AKSU has scatter ... In short, the effective firing range is 30 m.

            You can get out of it only in milk.

            The effective firing range from AKSU 30 is a maximum of 50 meters, further from the crafty one.

            In everything you need skill, training, training.
            The nearest growth is 100 m.
            Long growth - 250 m.
            Machine gun - 200 m.
            Rise in turn for 15 seconds
            12 rounds, firing in bursts, in protective suits L-1, gas masks, in winter.
            A company of 100 people, 70 should shoot perfectly. If not - from the shooting range 18 km to the barracks on foot - jogging.
            The preparation of the laggards is simple - shooting lying with a coin on the barrel, after lights out, in the dryer, in jackets under the strict guidance of the grandfathers of the SA. If a coin falls, then to get it you have to understand the lattice (40-50 kg).
            Six months later, 80 - 85% shoot perfectly.
            After that, ordinary AKM, like SVD. laughing
            1. Ezekiel 25-17
              Ezekiel 25-17 16 August 2019 20: 51
              +2
              Quote: Arzt
              AKSU has scatter ... In short, the effective firing range is 30 m.

              You can get out of it only in milk.

              The effective firing range from AKSU 30 is a maximum of 50 meters, further from the crafty one.

              In everything you need skill, training, training.
              The nearest growth is 100 m.
              Long growth - 250 m.
              Machine gun - 200 m.
              Rise in turn for 15 seconds
              12 rounds, firing in bursts, in protective suits L-1, gas masks, in winter.
              A company of 100 people, 70 should shoot perfectly. If not - from the shooting range 18 km to the barracks on foot - jogging.
              The preparation of the laggards is simple - shooting lying with a coin on the barrel, after lights out, in the dryer, in jackets under the strict guidance of the grandfathers of the SA. If a coin falls, then to get it you have to understand the lattice (40-50 kg).
              Six months later, 80 - 85% shoot perfectly.
              After that, ordinary AKM, like SVD. laughing

              So for sure, but this one from AKM, AK-74, AKSU has a shortened barrel and was created as a personal weapon for tank crews, etc. Therefore, in a combat situation, infantry, and anyone else refused and took the AK-74 into their hands. For example, I prefer the good old AKM for battle.
              1. Doctor
                Doctor 16 August 2019 22: 06
                +2
                I clarify. The complex exercise described above was performed from AKSU. At the same time, many spent on each target 2 rounds.
                After many firing from the AKSU, the accuracy of firing from the AKM was perceived as if after the AKM firing from the SVD.
          2. aws4
            aws4 18 August 2019 06: 26
            -1
            Ezekiel 25-17 lie !!!!!!! you're lying! why it’s not clear ... once again I write I shot from the AKSU at standard automatic targets, first they raised two growth then machine-gun crews .. and they hit and fell, although of course it was much easier to do with ordinary AK 74 ... for a minute if I have memory does not change the height of 250 meters machine-gun calculation of 300 .. well, do not clog the air here after listening to tales and fiction
      2. Alexey-74
        Alexey-74 16 August 2019 12: 55
        +4
        AKSU has an effective range of 30 meters ... are you serious?
      3. major147
        major147 17 August 2019 18: 59
        0
        Quote: Ezekiel 25-17
        AKSU has scatter ... In short, the effective firing range is 30 m.

        Heading the weapons service of the unit, he experimented with AKSU on this topic. Made a conclusion. After the shooting of the 1st horn, the trajectory of the bullet is not predictable!
    2. parma
      parma 16 August 2019 09: 58
      +11
      It all depends on the cartridge, what will be in the BC ... But in general, what about AKSU and PP-2000, if you need to press the "spirits" like the pilot's fifth foot - press, don't press there are practically no chances ...
      1. Potato
        Potato 16 August 2019 10: 02
        +3
        Well, it’s better for the pilot to run fast and long than the machine. For example, you can give him a folding bike instead of a machine
        1. Denimax
          Denimax 16 August 2019 10: 42
          +1
          And in order to slow down the chase, it’s better to throw mines instead of grenades.
          1. Ratmir_Ryazan
            Ratmir_Ryazan 16 August 2019 10: 57
            +2
            in order to slow down the chase, it’s better to throw mines instead of grenades.


            Anti-tank))
            1. Evil echo
              Evil echo 16 August 2019 11: 45
              +1
              Or by the cattle method. )))
            2. Denimax
              Denimax 16 August 2019 14: 02
              +1
              Like POM-3, only smaller and lighter. And it is desirable that outwardly looked like an ordinary cobblestone.
              1. 1 Navigator
                1 Navigator 16 August 2019 19: 04
                +1
                POM 3 is a very good mine! In the second Chechen barmalei sat on the tail of the reconnaissance group. They sat tight. Three times installed POM-3, all three times successfully! After the third blast, the chase stopped!
                1. root
                  root 16 August 2019 23: 00
                  +1
                  pom-3
                  mine 2015. What 2 Chechen ....
              2. cat Rusich
                cat Rusich 16 August 2019 23: 27
                0
                PFM-1 (or BLU-43 / B for NATO) will only have to be installed using PKM-1 (Wind-M). Will it fit? hi
        2. Ezekiel 25-17
          Ezekiel 25-17 16 August 2019 11: 12
          0
          Quote: Potato
          Well, it’s better for the pilot to run fast and long than the machine. For example, you can give him a folding bike instead of a machine

          If you are not a military man, then do not argue about what you have not been given to understand.
          1. bbtcs
            bbtcs 18 August 2019 07: 59
            0
            No need to mingle. The army is eating civilian bread. And if anyone thinks that in the army it is so interesting - look about a coin and a 40 kg grate. And 18 km running. After all, the army, as you know, is 5% of the shooting range and 95% of subordination.
        3. Clone
          Clone 16 August 2019 13: 06
          +2
          Those who are not friends with irony blamed. laughing
      2. Pedrodepackes
        Pedrodepackes 16 August 2019 10: 08
        -1
        Quote: parma
        In general, that AKSU that PP-2000

        since they are attached to the ejection seat, it makes no difference whether the pilot has time to get to it or not, that’s the main thing. Now, if the issue of constant wear was considered, then another thing.
        1. Monar
          Monar 16 August 2019 10: 29
          +13
          And the pilot is also attached to the ejection seat. laughing
          That's just it lands separately. And NAZ is with him.
          "The plane is usually in an ejection seat (many types of aircraft now have K-36 seats and its modifications, and the NAZ is placed in the cup of the seat and, it turns out, the pilot sits on the NAZ) and the NAZ itself is laced up in a bag attached to the seat. is attached to the harness, worn by the pilot with the help of a belt lock (located on the harness itself and to which, in addition to the NAZ, the ends of the waist belts are attached) and an attachment located at the NAZ itself. "
          https://lik-o-dil-es.blogspot.com/2018/03/aviacionnyj-nosimyj-avarijnyj-zapas-naz.html
    3. Narak-zempo
      Narak-zempo 16 August 2019 10: 03
      -5
      Quote: Potato
      For that matter, give the pilot a gun

      With one cartridge.
      1. LiSiCyn
        LiSiCyn 16 August 2019 10: 10
        +3
        Well, in summary ...
        Quote: Potato
        For example, you can give him a folding bike instead of a machine

        Quote: Narak-zempo
        With one cartridge.

        wink
    4. yehat
      yehat 16 August 2019 10: 47
      +5
      I think a very good replacement.
      the pilot does not need to endure the division of barmalei, but if possible return secretly.
      And I don’t think that at least 10% of pilots will be able to use AKSU very effectively -
      there isn’t enough experience and shooting training, and the 2000 is simpler, easier and more accurate.
      In my opinion, it is necessary to change. Why not a gun? Because the pilot should still be able to cope with a small group with luck, and a pistol is a rather weak argument and also very demanding on shooting training.
      1. Nick
        Nick 17 August 2019 18: 33
        0
        Quote: yehat
        And I don’t think that at least 10% of pilots will be able to use AKSU very effectively -
        there isn’t enough experience and shooting training, and the 2000 is simpler, easier and more accurate.
        In my opinion, it is necessary to change.

        Right. In addition, there are stores for the 2000 cartridge for the 44 cartridge, which increases the practical rate of fire. And the weight of weapons and ammunition is also in favor of the 2000 software
    5. yehat
      yehat 16 August 2019 13: 35
      0
      1 more moment - pp2000, although light, but I don’t see much convenience with it when running
      you need to somehow think through this moment - some convenient suspension or holster.
      and then if the butt starts banging at every step, you will not run far.
    6. Nick
      Nick 17 August 2019 18: 17
      0
      Quote: Potato
      If from the point of view of convenience and compact ty, then pp is better, and if you need to press the queue to the land of dushmans, then ax.

      2000 submachine gun and then a machine gun that shoots in bursts. And while the dispersion of bullets when firing at 100 m. While lying on hand, the 2000 software is even smaller than the AKSU, 25x25 see versus 30x35.
  2. Maki Avellevich
    Maki Avellevich 16 August 2019 09: 54
    +10
    Pilots more than PP and do not.
    correct decision.
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 16 August 2019 10: 15
      +13
      In Afghanistan, at first they also thought so. We flew with all sorts of MP-7 / super-short MP-5 and all sorts of lightweight PP. But they quickly refused. Now everyone is flying with carbines. For the good of the PP only shot in those conditions. Hiding in the villages is prohibited by the instructions, since this leads to a visit by the Taliban and the PP there will not help much from the 20-30 fighters on Toyota. Running away from the place of fall and villages is considered the safest. In such conditions - the shortest and lightest carbine is more useful than the most prodigy PP.
      1. Nick
        Nick 17 August 2019 19: 10
        0
        Quote: donavi49
        In Afghanistan, at first they also thought so. We flew with all sorts of MP-7 / super-short MP-5 and all sorts of lightweight PP. But they quickly refused. Now everyone is flying with carbines.

        For helicopter pilots, a carabiner is possible and preferable, but in the NAZ of an airplane a carabiner is unlikely to fit.
  3. Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Obi-Wan Kenobi 16 August 2019 09: 55
    +3
    So-so little idea.
  4. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 16 August 2019 09: 59
    +10
    Pilots must be taught to camouflage themselves on the ground, use special communications equipment and survive in difficult conditions. Fighting off the barmalei is almost impossible alone. Unless, of course, this is not a Hollywood movie. A submachine gun is better than AKSU, IMHO. By saving space and weight, you can add ammunition, and some special means of communication and rescue ...
    1. Kurare
      Kurare 16 August 2019 14: 27
      -2
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      A submachine gun is better than AKSU, IMHO.

      AKS-U is good because for him not every board is an obstacle. Cartridge 9x19 cannot boast of this. If in Russia they really decided to switch to a more powerful pistol cartridge 9x21, then PP based on it will be just right.
      1. Maki Avellevich
        Maki Avellevich 16 August 2019 21: 16
        +1
        Quote: Kurare
        AKS-U is good because for him not every board is an obstacle. Cartridge 9x19 cannot boast of this. If in Russia they really decided to switch to a more powerful pistol cartridge 9x21, then PP based on it will be just right.

        if the pilot is in a situation in which he has to fight, he has very few chances, no matter what penetration, accuracy, etc. his weapons.
        in addition, after catapultation, pilots are usually injured.
      2. poquello
        poquello 16 August 2019 23: 49
        0
        Quote: Kurare
        Quote: Mountain Shooter
        A submachine gun is better than AKSU, IMHO.

        AKS-U is good because for him not every board is an obstacle. Cartridge 9x19 cannot boast of this. If in Russia they really decided to switch to a more powerful pistol cartridge 9x21, then PP based on it will be just right.

        it’s not a board for a small thing, more precisely, from what distance
      3. Nick
        Nick 17 August 2019 19: 18
        0
        Quote: Kurare
        AKS-U is good because for him not every board is an obstacle. Cartridge 9x19 can not boast of this.

        9 × 19 mm cartridges for 2000 PP with an armor-piercing bullet 7Н31 of Russian design - provide penetration of 8-mm steel sheet at a distance of up to 10 m, 5 mm at a distance of 45 m. In addition, the stopping action of the bullet of the caliber 9 mm. Surely higher than the bullets caliber 5,45 mm.
    2. ver_
      ver_ 17 August 2019 12: 03
      +1
      ... even better - teleport directly to your unit ..
  5. Siberian 66
    Siberian 66 16 August 2019 10: 05
    +23
    The lighter and more compact - the better. Especially for the wounded pilot. 9mm stopping effect is better. Sighting range of 50 meters and no longer needed. At a greater range, you must disguise yourself and not stir once again, maybe they will not notice. Any shooting is only point blank when there is no more chance. Here AKSU is not needed, here the smaller and more compact the greater the chances of carrying the fire and holding it with one hand if it is wounded. Yes, and the AKSU is a so-so apparatus ..
    1. Micfoster
      Micfoster 16 August 2019 10: 24
      +4
      Absolutely right! I think in the Ministry of Defense from these considerations and proceed.
      1. yehat
        yehat 16 August 2019 10: 50
        +3
        only I strongly doubt the preparation of most pilots for the campaign after the bailout.
        Well, I do not believe that they seriously train survival skills, except for the minimum set by instructions like once a year to go to the shooting gallery.
    2. donavi49
      donavi49 16 August 2019 10: 27
      +12
      Well, it’s very controversial. ISOFs in Afghanistan were played with PP and are now switching to Aroid / National Light Carabiners. For there is no sense in PP in those conditions.

      On the other hand - for example Filipov. Even if he flew in a spark and they would have some Pechenegs with satchels, a single ribbon + in between flights, they would participate in CTO / CSO training - this would not help them. Just because he fell in 300 from the supporting village of HTS. From Toyota can not escape. And do not shoot a hundred broads with the support of gantraks.

      From this point of view - perhaps in such a situation the parachute-wing and the ability to use it will help.

      On the third side - Su-24 who were shot down by the Sultan. Peshkova carried closer to the broads and he was shot in the air. The other was carried away and he was able to escape.

      In general - according to the American and Western models now, when the aircraft crashes in the territory controlled by the enemy:
      - it is necessary to ensure maximum stealth
      - it is necessary to ensure the maximum arrival speed of the MSS using a branched system of temporary places of basing that are set aside in the direction of the operation (well, for example, if you take the VKS and Syria - then when you hit the Lataminsky ledge with the forces of the VKS - the MSS constant readiness detachment is put up at ab Hama) .
      - upon detection of pilots, try to break the distance and hide.
      - a carbine is considered a more suitable weapon that gives parity in range with the light weapons of terrorists, which increases the chances of breaking the distance and hiding in a collision with a small search squad of the enemy.
      1. Avior
        Avior 16 August 2019 11: 45
        0
        And how to shoot accurately from a carbine on the go? But who would he stop solitary?
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 16 August 2019 11: 53
          0
          Well, why on the go? From the PP - he doesn’t even scare the Taliban with AK, while the Taliban with AK can already press him to the shelter. Actually - complete the task.

          The whole point of this rifleman is to somehow squeeze a small search squad. Having won some time to get lost again.

          All other options will not work.
          1. Avior
            Avior 16 August 2019 11: 57
            +2
            And how will he press it with a single carbine with a single aimless?
            So you can’t even squeeze it alone.
            Another thing is that PP with large ammunition, you run away, disguising yourself with folds of the terrain and frequent unobtrusive bursts, you will not let the enemy chase you openly.
            200 meters - enough distance to try to break the distance from the chase
            1. SARANCHA1976
              SARANCHA1976 17 August 2019 21: 57
              -1
              God what nonsense
          2. poquello
            poquello 16 August 2019 23: 52
            0
            Quote: donavi49
            From the PP - he doesn’t even scare the Taliban with AK,

            ))) the Taliban of the type believes on the fly - what flies, where it flies
      2. Vladimir Teplov
        Vladimir Teplov 16 August 2019 11: 47
        -1
        Well, if so, then Stechkin’s pistol is exactly what you need and the store is capacious light and long-range
      3. Nick
        Nick 17 August 2019 19: 29
        0
        Quote: donavi49
        a carbine is considered a more suitable weapon, giving parity in range with the light weapons of terrorists,

        The carbine in the NAZ is difficult to pack. The same SCN 102 cm long and weight 3,75 kg.
  6. Ros 56
    Ros 56 16 August 2019 10: 06
    +13
    First of all, we need a quick response service for pulling out pilots. Necessarily a Mi-24 type turntable and a group of special fighters and air cover. And not like in Syria, the pilot died, the partner’s fuel and ammunition are running out and there is nobody. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm sorry for the men.
    1. Ratmir_Ryazan
      Ratmir_Ryazan 16 August 2019 11: 40
      0
      Yes, all this is there, there are evacuation groups, but if an airplane is shot down, then the turntable in that area will be overwhelmed.

      As in general, it was when the navigator was pulled out from a Su-24 shot down by Turkey.

      Good sat down. Killed only one of the group that pulled the navigator, and Mi-8 fighters ATGM on the ground finished off the guns.

      Pulling out with a regular helicopter is very risky. Other methods and solutions are needed.

      Maybe he could even make some special, more secure helicopter, purely as an evacuation helicopter, so that under shelling from a rifle to 12,7 mm he could at least sit down and pick up his own, one pilot, no additional weapons, so as not to overwhelm, only armor and the ability to transport as many fighters as possible, as an option additional fuel tanks so that you can suspend and then dump them in flight, to increase the flight range.
    2. Maki Avellevich
      Maki Avellevich 17 August 2019 06: 36
      +2
      absolutely correct.
      after the 1973 war in Israel, a special unit was created for this, 669.

  7. Andrei Nikolaevich
    Andrei Nikolaevich 16 August 2019 10: 14
    +1
    And for me, it would be better if our pilots were not shot down.
  8. uav80
    uav80 16 August 2019 10: 17
    +3
    What prevents SR-3M "Whirlwind" from using, empty weight 2kg, length 675/410
  9. Mark
    Mark 16 August 2019 10: 28
    0
    Slovaks have such a K105 full auto pistol. Compact, lightweight, shoots without recoil due to the rotating barrel, and many shops. Such would be the pilots in emergency stock.
    1. hhurik
      hhurik 16 August 2019 10: 45
      +1
      Why and who needs it? A long time ago they use APS. And yes - the militia / police have questions about the 2000 PP, therefore there are few of them in sight of the patrols, they are carrying the AKS74U.
      IMHO: a terrible weapon (and the bullet is terrible in appearance), like a plane - it will not take off.
  10. Ardein
    Ardein 16 August 2019 10: 44
    +1
    And what did they not like the AEK-919K "Kashtan"?
    It seems like he even ran in exactly this role for helicopter pilots.
  11. yehat
    yehat 16 August 2019 10: 54
    0
    Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich
    And for me, it would be better if our pilots were not shot down.

    everything should be thought out - he is preparing on the ground and flying before evacuation.
    only in this way can aviation become strong.
  12. Ratmir_Ryazan
    Ratmir_Ryazan 16 August 2019 11: 04
    -1
    I would choose AKSU, all these submachine guns are nonsense, and even better would be just AK with a folding butt.

    What is it right that AKSU strongly wins before the AKS in terms of size? Does the AKC interfere with the emergency kit for pilots?

    AK allows in short bursts to confidently hit targets up to 500 meters, and submachine guns up to 200 meters.

    A shooter with a submachine gun loses an arrow with a machine gun in the distance of defeat. The slaughter rate is again lower in PP significantly, a nailed effect.

    Changing AK to PP is stupid. Here I would change AKSU on AK-74M + I would add a night sight.
    1. V1er
      V1er 16 August 2019 11: 18
      +1
      Yeah. ) Another body armor, helmet, a pair of horns, a grenade launcher and a rimbo are ready. ) They correctly wrote that we need a special group on the turntable and the ability to disguise themselves and hide, to run as far as possible. And if they catch up, even a Pecheneg will not help you. Spirits have an overwhelming advantage in manpower, technology, and most importantly, knowledge of the area.
      1. Ratmir_Ryazan
        Ratmir_Ryazan 16 August 2019 11: 27
        +2
        I just wrote that I would prefer.

        PP is in my opinion a generally useless weapon in battle.
        1. Nick
          Nick 17 August 2019 19: 35
          0
          Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
          I just wrote that I would prefer.

          PP is in my opinion a generally useless weapon in battle.

          With PPSh 7,62X25, the whole Second World War was fought, and won.
    2. Avior
      Avior 16 August 2019 11: 42
      +2
      There is no task for the pilot to hit anything, he has the task of breaking away from the group of pursuers, hiding and waiting for the rescue group.
      It is difficult for him to conduct a battle with aimed fire against a group; his business is to press the enemy to the ground with intense fire for a while and break away from them.
      On the move you can’t shoot accurately, but if you lie down and start aiming, they surround and shoot you in the back.
      And for this tactic, PP is incomparably better - lighter, more convenient, more compact and more ammunition.
      1. Genry
        Genry 16 August 2019 16: 34
        -1
        Quote: Avior
        his business is to press the enemy to the ground with intense fire for a while and break away from them.

        If you push someone to the ground, then a larger number of opponents will simply stick you to it ... And it’s easier to catch up than to run away, especially since they will simply chase you, blocking the escape route by fire.
        You just need to hide quietly and especially from thermal imagers.
        And no gun or machine gun will save you from grenade launchers.
        1. Avior
          Avior 16 August 2019 21: 42
          -2
          Guaranteed will not save.
          But the chances are greater than in other cases.
          You just need to run away, shooting intensely and aimlessly, delaying the enemy’s attempts to chase you.
          And catching up in this case is not easy, if you hid behind a natural shelter after an open space, those who are catching up cannot immediately rush after you, because you can pity them in long bursts from the shelter, and in the open area the more there are, the more hits there will be.
          And only the fleeing person knows that behind this particular stone he will wait until you go out into the open, or run on, not stopping.
          1. Genry
            Genry 17 August 2019 11: 16
            -1
            Quote: Avior
            And only the runaway knows behind this particular stone he will wait

            In recent times, this could somehow have a ride. Now almost everyone ... has toy quadrocopters.
            If there are only two enemies, then they will pinch you on the sides behind any stone or shelter and can calmly provoke you to shoot the entire ammunition. Then a couple of light-noise grenades and a shotgun loaded with sandbags .... Although why fool around like that - the corpse costs the same.
            So it's best to play the stealth variant with maximum disguise and caution.
    3. yehat
      yehat 16 August 2019 13: 29
      +1
      night sight ??? are you going to crush the enemy with your bare hands instead of an airplane?
      I would prefer a pp with a silencer without sights.
      1. Ratmir_Ryazan
        Ratmir_Ryazan 17 August 2019 10: 52
        -1
        A night sight is needed so that observation can be carried out at night.

        The pilot is given an automatic machine to survive, situations can be different, and in my opinion, in any case, the same AK-74M with a folding butt is much better to have than any software.
  13. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
    SERGEY SERGEEVICS 16 August 2019 11: 23
    -1
    You can also use the PP-2000 for flights to civilian sectors, and armed conflicts will not be the best option for flights, it is better to use Ak here.
  14. Jcvai
    Jcvai 16 August 2019 11: 23
    +1
    Shaft under the seat and DVL in the back.
    A PP instead of a gun in the waist
    1. Doctor
      Doctor 16 August 2019 12: 34
      +2
      Shaft under seat

      Sensibly. Silent weapons are psychologically much worse than the barmalei know that this is the weapons of the Specialists. More likely to knock out the vanguard of the pursuers, make others heal and take time.
      A very good idea.
      1. yehat
        yehat 16 August 2019 13: 30
        0
        yes, the shaft is interesting and it can be compactly stored
      2. Nick
        Nick 17 August 2019 19: 40
        0
        Quote: Arzt
        Sensibly. Silent weapons psychologically much worse

        Rather low noise. Noise the shot and the operation of automation completely, so far no one has succeeded
  15. cultural post
    cultural post 16 August 2019 11: 37
    +2
    Quote: donavi49
    In Afghanistan, at first they also thought so. We flew with all sorts of MP-7 / super-short MP-5 and all sorts of lightweight PP. But they quickly refused. Now everyone is flying with carbines. For the good of the PP only shot in those conditions. Hiding in the villages is prohibited by the instructions, since this leads to a visit by the Taliban and the PP there will not help much from the 20-30 fighters on Toyota. Running away from the place of fall and villages is considered the safest. In such conditions - the shortest and lightest carbine is more useful than the most prodigy PP.

    If it’s most correct to run away, it means that it’s easier and better. What is the shortest and lightest carbine lighter than 1,4 kg without a magazine at the PP-2000?
    1. yehat
      yehat 16 August 2019 13: 32
      0
      the mass is not so critical - the dimensions are more important here
      Kalash’s horn doesn’t contribute to the speed of movement.
      perhaps because of the short store, the carabiner will be even more convenient than the PP.
      1. donavi49
        donavi49 16 August 2019 16: 29
        0
        Well, even Aroids can be rammed into the assembly with the assembly in the 3 movement. AK so will not work.
        1. yehat
          yehat 16 August 2019 17: 05
          -1
          did not know that they add up
        2. Ratmir_Ryazan
          Ratmir_Ryazan 17 August 2019 10: 56
          0
          On the AK-74m, he folded his butt and unfastened the store. Even more convenient and faster.
  16. Avior
    Avior 16 August 2019 11: 37
    -2
    A smart decision that was late for many years.
    And the pilots are still shooting Stechkin without any chance
  17. Dikson
    Dikson 16 August 2019 11: 39
    -1
    To begin with, the proposed machine is elementarily lighter and more compact ... A lot of people wrote here - the main thing after hitting the pilot is to hide, go away and disguise himself .. And if, God forbid, the pilot is also wounded? Excess kilogram of weight can play a decisive role .. Pilots are not special forces ... - they are not trained to run from 60 kg on the back ... Here the muffler could come in handy ... or a night sight .. Well, grenades are all you need .. Of course, it would be better if such situations didn’t happen with our guys at all .. But the rescue groups should react more seriously .. -Remember the burned-out turntable ... (
  18. Elysium
    Elysium 16 August 2019 11: 41
    +2
    The main shooting training. The effectiveness of the weapon depends on it in the first place.
  19. Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 16 August 2019 12: 26
    0
    It is high time. And tankers also need to arm the PP ....
    1. Dikson
      Dikson 16 August 2019 12: 31
      -3
      tankers need something like Thunder, according to the Bull-Pap scheme .. so that the grenade launcher was barrel .. - because if you leave the box in street battles ... - the ratchet will not help .. ((
      1. Chever
        Chever 17 August 2019 04: 43
        0
        Quote: Dikson
        tankers need something like Thunder

        What is Thunder?
  20. garri-lin
    garri-lin 16 August 2019 12: 41
    0
    Russia has a good 9 × 21 cartridge. On the basis of PP to make a carbine. In fact, just lengthen the barrel and take care of ergonomics. For compactness, can be made collapsible, in 2 parts. The barrel, the gunner forend, kit one part. Prtklad, USM and other second. There is a sniperka which folds along the chamber in half. It seems not flimsy. And compactness during storage will give. The issue of arming pilots is constantly breaking out. And unfortunately, everything is not solved. Can announce a competition?
  21. Cympak
    Cympak 16 August 2019 12: 51
    +2
    Or maybe AS "Val" or "Vintorez" is better?
  22. g1washntwn
    g1washntwn 16 August 2019 13: 04
    0
    IMHO. PP is a "last chance" remedy. In order to keep the enemy at a distance, you need a more long-range and accurate weapon of self-defense and survival. Therefore, whatever one may say, a long barrel will be required, which means a folding structure, at least x3-5 optics, a semiautomatic device, a magazine for at least 20 rounds and a silencer is very desirable. Something like AS "Val" ...
    1. Avior
      Avior 16 August 2019 14: 31
      +1
      The pilot will not have an opponent, but a group of opponents.
      And he won’t hold them long anyway, even give him a machine gun. Go around behind and shoot
      1. g1washntwn
        g1washntwn 19 August 2019 06: 57
        0
        The actions against one group for the most part rely on secrecy, maneuverability and constant retention of the enemy at a distance. It is you who plan to hold the Maginot line with one pilot. In your case, a defensive battle is ALREADY an action in the environment. Our task is to increase the distance from the pursuit by acting not only with our feet, but also with our weapons. This will help a lot with accuracy (PP in touch), stealth (PP with a silencer even more smothered) and destructive force (PP again is not the first), since there will be no so much chances to fire.
        1. Avior
          Avior 19 August 2019 09: 27
          -2
          Captain Evidence, but fate is not the first to read the branch?
          . There is no task for the pilot to hit anything, he has the task of breaking away from the group of pursuers, hiding and waiting for the rescue group.
          It is difficult for him to conduct a battle with aimed fire against a group; his business is to press the enemy to the ground with intense fire for a while and break away from them.
          On the move you can’t shoot accurately, but if you lie down and start aiming, they surround and shoot you in the back.
          And for this tactic, PP is incomparably better - lighter, more convenient, more compact and more ammunition.
          1. g1washntwn
            g1washntwn 19 August 2019 09: 44
            -1
            Have you read the answers yourself, or is it your task to give your opinion only?
            Quote: Avior
            to press his business for the time of the enemy to the ground with intense fire

            Well try to do it from PP. You will have a handicap of 10 seconds. This is only in Hollywood from Uzi on the run and shooting blindly behind someone's back they hit and hold up with "hurricane fire", the PP ammunition does not suck in a childish way. If you are planning to delay and only flee, it is better to take infantry mines with self-stretching and scatter them in all directions. This will at least force the pursuers to bypass you on a wider front and not rush to you directly.
  23. Clone
    Clone 16 August 2019 13: 09
    +2
    And the pilots themselves were asked what they want ??? Or did the Arbat Yudashkins decide everything, proceeding from their own idea of ​​the flight crew's requests and needs?
    1. garri-lin
      garri-lin 16 August 2019 13: 32
      0
      The average flyer doesn't know what he needs in a situation like this. It's just that he was not in such a situation and does not know. No experience. The best consultants are those who had to run around the enemy's rear. The precision moves without noise and without attracting attention. Well, and rethink requests with an emphasis on "to fit into the emergency stock."
  24. Maxim364364
    Maxim364364 16 August 2019 14: 04
    0
    And push the "fly" in the ass in the NAZ to be sure laughing
  25. mvd ru
    mvd ru 16 August 2019 15: 21
    0
    Quote: Vladimir16
    You probably from the PM for a hundred meters grumbled right on target?

    Do you know the aiming range of the PM? I shot 3 rounds 25 m distance
    Quote: Vladimir16
    At the World Cup and the Olympics took gold?

    Did not have to
    Quote: Vladimir16
    It seems like just a show off is cheap.

    Ponty, I’m only watching a sofa expert here.
    Quote: Vladimir16
    But judging by the pluses and minuses, the Pontus is trusted by part of the population in the SA who did not serve.

    Judging by your comments, just you didn’t serve, PS that you offended that you set minuses wink so for the cause and for not knowing the mat part wink
  26. ustas-oto
    ustas-oto 16 August 2019 17: 00
    0
    Gentlemen, the experts wanted to note why this weapon is needed. Not only our search groups will search for a pilot, if he finds himself in a given situation, fly to his hands and feet. Not one and two bearded goblins will look for him, you need to be able to use your weapons. That in Georgia, Syria there is sad experience, measures are needed in general. Weapons must be tested in conditions close to combat. Errors in this situation are given to us by the blood, the blood of specialists.
  27. senima56
    senima56 16 August 2019 17: 08
    0
    It was high time to arm pilots, tankers, helicopter pilots and other military personnel, who, by the nature of their service, AK (in the broad sense of the AK) is not needed directly for work. good
  28. monah
    monah 16 August 2019 21: 19
    0
    Quote: Ezekiel 25-17
    Quote: Arzt
    AKSU has scatter ... In short, the effective firing range is 30 m.

    You can get out of it only in milk.

    The effective firing range from AKSU 30 is a maximum of 50 meters, further from the crafty one.

    In everything you need skill, training, training.
    The nearest growth is 100 m.
    Long growth - 250 m.
    Machine gun - 200 m.
    Rise in turn for 15 seconds
    12 rounds, firing in bursts, in protective suits L-1, gas masks, in winter.
    A company of 100 people, 70 should shoot perfectly. If not - from the shooting range 18 km to the barracks on foot - jogging.
    The preparation of the laggards is simple - shooting lying with a coin on the barrel, after lights out, in the dryer, in jackets under the strict guidance of the grandfathers of the SA. If a coin falls, then to get it you have to understand the lattice (40-50 kg).
    Six months later, 80 - 85% shoot perfectly.
    After that, ordinary AKM, like SVD. laughing

    So for sure, but this one from AKM, AK-74, AKSU has a shortened barrel and was created as a personal weapon for tank crews, etc. Therefore, in a combat situation, infantry, and anyone else refused and took the AK-74 into their hands. For example, I prefer the good old AKM for battle.
    Despite all the goodies from 74, I support the good old AKM at the roadblocks, it was somehow calmer with him!
  29. not main
    not main 16 August 2019 22: 25
    0
    Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
    Maybe he could even make some special, more secure helicopter, purely as an evacuation helicopter, so that under shelling from a rifle to 12,7 mm he could at least sit down and pick up his own, one pilot, no additional weapons, so as not to overwhelm, only armor and the ability to transport as many fighters as possible, as an option additional fuel tanks so that you can suspend and then dump them in flight, to increase the flight range.

    It's hard to even comment! Minus from me. 12.7 pierced the armor of all Wehrmacht tanks until 1942! And the sleeve and blades are also armored? And if this monster takes off, then it is not able to save anyone!
    1. bbtcs
      bbtcs 18 August 2019 07: 53
      0
      The Americans dreamed of raising the cable with a balloon and hooking with adjustable rods to the S-130. The question is how to drag a pilot inside?
  30. M. Michelson
    M. Michelson 17 August 2019 10: 53
    -2
    In fact, the infantrymen should be equipped with such a machine gun as the second. For close combat in trenches (when the main ammunition will be already shot in the attack).
  31. ASASHOKA
    ASASHOKA 17 August 2019 19: 10
    0
    "... According to him, the military department accepted this proposal with interest." ...
    The department, most likely, will not accept the product without revision "for itself". Let's see and see. Patience.
  32. Mister who
    Mister who 17 August 2019 20: 23
    0
    Pistols, assault rifles - it’s high time for drones to bombard like Amer.y, and then some kind of stone age. ))) or some robot on the wheels of a small one, put in the trunk and let it cover there while you run)))
  33. Mister who
    Mister who 17 August 2019 20: 55
    0
    It would be nice at all to let two types of drones, one ordinary, one high-altitude - so that they wouldn’t hurt with a gun, bombed, shot with a hen, high-rise spotted barmaley - bombed to hell, barmaley have no air defense. )))
  34. Cats
    Cats 17 August 2019 23: 41
    0
    For the complete set, the PP-19 "Bizon" has not yet been discussed. There, the store capacity is decent, and the ability to install sights and PBS, and variations in the cartridge (9x18, -x19, -x21).
  35. riwas
    riwas 18 August 2019 08: 58
    +1
    Powers had a pistol with a silencer, so that in case of which he would not draw attention to himself.
    I think for the PP-2000 pilots, too, should be with a silencer.
  36. saygon66
    saygon66 18 August 2019 20: 19
    +1
    - Why not ... 2000 is lighter and more compact. You can work with one hand. Now is in service with the police. But there were problems - due to accidentally pressing the eject button of the store.
    I saw how the stores were wrapped with electrical tape to the handle - for insurance.
  37. yehat
    yehat 19 August 2019 10: 18
    0
    Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
    the butt is much better to have than any PP

    or better yet, have a silent tank and company of infantry in cover