Armada officers. Jose Antonio de Gastagneta

118
Stories about people belonging to a particular profession, are sometimes a kind of slice of the time when they lived, of his customs and laws, an illustration of the events great and small, one way or another influencing the fate of these very people, and many others too. Earlier, I already published material with a story about one outstanding person - an officer of the Spanish Marine Corps, don José González Ontoria, an engineer, artilleryman, organizer and reformer who made a great contribution to the development of the Armada. Today, after a long break, I want to continue the cycle of publications about the outstanding officers and admirals of Armada Espanyola. The cycle will cover the times from the 18th to the 19th centuries and include not only military commanders, but also just iconic figures, one way or another noted in history. Here you will not see any deep details, specific genealogies, detailed descriptions of battles - only biographies that you can easily find in the Spanish segment of the Internet, if only in Wikipedia. But in Russian, amazingly little is said about these wonderful people, and therefore I consider it my duty to tell you more about them, translating publicly available information into a language that we understand. And I will start with the earliest of the personalities outlined for the cycle - don José Antonio de Gastagneta and Iturribalsagi.

Armada officers. Jose Antonio de Gastagneta

Don Jose Antonio de Gastagnet and Iturribalsaga




In the service of the Habsburgs


Jose de Gastagnet was born in 1656, in the city of Motrico, in the Basque Country, in a family associated with the sea for many generations. His father, Francisco de Gastagneta, owned his own ship as part of the Indian fleetwhose ships carried goods between the colonies and the mother country. Already at the age of 12, Jose aboard the galleon set off on his first voyage in India (i.e. America), with which his systematic training in marine affairs began. Combining theory and practice, Gastagneta studied the exact sciences like mathematics and astronomy, mastered the basics of navigational science, began to get acquainted with the technology of building ships. At age 16, on the Aviso ship, he and his father sailed to Veracruz, Mexico, where the venerable Francisco died, and young Jose had to return home already commanding his own ship. Despite the fact that this was his first voyage as a ship captain, and the route was not the easiest, Jose first proved himself to be a skillful and promising sailor - Aviso returned home on time without any adventures, and the ship’s crew respected the young lord Gastagnet, who, among other things, proved to be an excellent navigator. Thus began the story of one of the most important characters in the history of the XNUMXth century Armada, who will have time to leave his mark on its development for many years to come.

At the age of 28, he was already a seasoned sailor who made 11 independent voyages to America, including very close and difficult ones - to Argentina, to Tierra del Fuego and beyond Cape Horn. All of them were successful, brought him profit and reputation, and Gastagnet could continue to continue in the same spirit - but the soul of a sailor demanded more. In 1684, he enters the ranks of the Armada, undergoes training, and two years later receives the title of capitan de mar - i.e., captain of the sea. It should be noted that such an act at the end of the XVII century was quite peculiar, since service in Armada did not promise him much success and prospects - the Spanish Navy during the reign of King Carlos II was in such a severe crisis that voices were heard that a little more - and he will completely disappear from the seas. Is it a joke - while the leading maritime powers had several dozen or even hundreds of ships of the line that made up the core of the fleets of that time, Spain at the time of the death of the last Spanish Habsburg had only 8 (eight) of these ships, and their condition was so sad that almost all 5 of them were being repaired at the dock, or were in reserve! Even Scandinavian countries like Sweden and Denmark were doing better. And it was at this time that Jose de Gastagneta became the next captain of the Armada. It is difficult to say what he was guided by - a patriotic impulse, hopes that the Spanish fleet would all be reborn, and again would be a storm of the seas, or something else. But the fact remains - abandoning the dusty work of a private merchant, he entered the public service in Armada in very difficult times for her.

For Gastagneta, there was no ship for command in Armada, because in 1687 he was assigned to Cantabria, to the royal shipyard in Colindres, where he supervised the construction of various ships. Here, for the first time, Don Jose’s talent for shipbuilding was clearly manifested, because he not only knew the theory, but also knew how to use it in practice, and most importantly, having an inquiring analytical mind, he immediately began to look for ways to improve the construction of ships, and wrote his first work on this topic is “Arte de fabricar Reales” (I will leave the names of the works without translation), which addressed the organization of works for the construction of warships. In 1691, he was transferred to Cadiz, where he also began to command individual ships or small formations in the Mediterranean, interacting with the Anglo-Dutch allies in the war against France. Here he showed himself well enough to receive at first promotion to the admiral, and then to the real admiral (Almirante Real, Royal Admiral, rank at the end of the 17th century in Armada). In 1694-1695, he rather actively operated on the sea, where he again showed his first talent as a navigator, skillfully guiding a convoy of ships under the noses of the French from Naples to Mahon, and also luring the detachment of Count de Tourville under serf cannons. Also at this time, he writes and publishes another book in 1692 - “Norte de la Navegación hallado por el Cuadrante de Reducción”. This work was entirely devoted to the navigational business, and for the first time introduced the use of an improved instrument, the quadrant, which will later be modernized and introduced after the 1721 year around the world as a sextant, and the discoverers will be granted the right to the British by John Hadley and Thomas Godfrey. By 1697, almost the entire Armada had already switched to using the Gastagneta quadrant, which simplified navigation, and Gastaneta was considered an outstanding sailor and was respected not only at home, but also abroad. He did not have a chance to rest on his laurels - in 1700-1701 he went to New Granada and was responsible for the ousting of the Scottish colonists who tried to settle on the shores of the Gulf of Darien, thereby threatening Spain's sovereignty over the region. He didn’t have to do this for long - at the beginning of 1701, disturbing news came from the mother country: King Carlos II died childless, and now there is a war between two applicants, Felipe de Bourbon and Carlos Habsburg. Jose Antonio de Gastagneta immediately returned home and swore allegiance to the Frenchman. From this moment began the most active and significant period of his life.

Admiral Bourbonov


Since the Spanish shipbuilding industry was in deep decline along with the Armada, and ships and sailors were needed for the war, Gastagnet, as one of the most respected commanders of the Armada with experience in the necessary areas, was appointed responsible for the revival of this industry. In 1702, he became superintendent of the factories and plantations of Cantabria, having founded the Guarniso shipyards near Santander, near which the village of El Astillero grew up. From that moment, José Antonio de Gastagneta begins to systematically build what Spain will rightfully be proud of in the future - a well-organized centralized shipbuilding, with the widespread use of standardized elements. In addition to the Guarniso shipyards, he also founded a number of enterprises on the rivers Sorros, Orio and Pasejas, in the Basque Country. Don Gastagneta was also responsible for the defense of the shores of the Bay of Biscay, and became Mayor of Motrico, concentrating in his hands power in many areas of life throughout the northern region of Spain. In 1712, he published a major treatise “Proporción de las medidas arregladas a la construcción de un bajel de guerra de setenta codos de quilla”, which described all the nuances and preparatory work necessary to organize effective shipbuilding. It addressed such important issues as the correct harvesting, drying and processing of wood. This treatise immediately began to be distributed throughout Spain, although there were problems with the introduction of all the processes described in it.


The battle of Passaro


Events in Europe soon forced Don José Antonio Gastagneta to return to the current fleet and lead it. Philip V, having finally established himself in Spain at the end of the war for the Spanish inheritance, began to pursue an active foreign policy, which implied, among other things, a war with opponents. One of his global plans was the creation of satellite states around Spain, which would be controlled by children from his marriage to Isabella Farnese, a very vibrant and politically active woman, who came from Parma. In preparation for the war, Gastanyete had to go to Holland in 1717 to agree on the purchase of ships there, and then led the invasion fleet in Sicily. The landing was successful, a flotilla of 23 warships (battleships and frigates) was parked at Passaro when the British fleet (22 ships) arrived under Admiral George Bing. Despite political tensions, a war between Spain and Great Britain was not declared, because there was no particular reaction to the appearance of strangers, and in vain - in spite of the peace between the two states, Bing attacked the Spaniards and launched a massacre. Two ships were sunk, 11 - captured by the British and taken away as prizes, four ships and frigates managed to escape. The main forces of the Armada were defeated, Admiral Gastagnet was captured. Only four months later did the war of the Fourth Alliance begin, which two years later ended in the defeat of Spain. Gastagnet himself was saved from major problems due to the battle by Passaro because he and his ship fought bravely, the admiral was seriously wounded in the leg, and the British committed their attack treacherously, without declaring war - which, however, could be predicted, knowing the character of the English themselves.

Soon, the 62-year-old don Jose Antonio returned from captivity, but due to injury and age, he left the active fleet for some time, returning to shipbuilding issues. In 1720, his new large-scale treatise “Proporciones de las medidas más esenciales para la fábrica de navíos y fragatas” was published, which concerned directly the theory of the ship - which contours are better suited for certain purposes, what length-to-width ratio should be for linear ships and frigates, how to build them better, etc. Together with other works, a system was formed that in 1721 was recognized as binding by a special royal decree, and shortly after that, individual elements of the created system began to be used not only in Spain itself, but also abroad. After this, Gastagneta returned to the current fleet, becoming one of the admirals of the Indium Fleet, which was responsible for the transportation of colonial wealth to the metropolis. During the next war with Great Britain, in 1726-1727, he, using his navigational skills, masterfully conducted a convoy with gold and silver under the nose of the English fleet for a total cost of 31 million pesos, and at some point he had to literally break through the patrols the English in the middle of the night, but they could not even find the Spaniards who freely reached the coast of Galicia. Upon learning of this, the king was delighted, and granted the admiral himself the life pension of 1000 ducats per year, and 1500 ducats a year to his son José Antonio. but news Gastagneta didn’t get about this anymore - being at a very respectable age (71 year), he died in Madrid on 5 on February 1728 year, shortly after his return from India.

Heritage


As admiral, Don José Antonio de Gastagneta proved to be quite peculiar. He lost the only major naval battle with the enemy (at Passaro), but it was hardly his fault here, because the British attacked without declaring war, and, strictly speaking, with a numerical equality of forces, they had more guns and better trained crews. The latter was generally extremely remarkable - in the era when the artillery battle decided everything, the Spaniards “lagged behind”, still boarding, and the consequences of the country's decline during the last Habsburg led to the fact that there weren’t so many good sailors, so even if Gastagneta was ready for battle, his outcome would still be sad. But at the same time, it cannot be said that as a naval commander he was bad - on the contrary, having proved himself to be a great navigator and master of maneuvering actions, he was also clearly an excellent organizer, so what knowledge in navigation could not save his squadrons if ships failed to sail. Meanwhile, the actions in the Mediterranean Sea and on the way from India say the opposite - the fleets under the leadership of Gastanyeta acted quite decisively as a whole, clearly fulfilling the orders of their admiral, which can also be put in his merits.


"Real Felipe" near the shipyards of Guarnice


But no achievements in the field of command of the fleets can not block the contribution that Gastagnet made to the development of shipbuilding in Spain. Having found him almost in ruins, this inventive biscuit laid the foundation for his magnificent revival that took place in the 2 half of the XVIII century. The Guarniso shipyards founded by him during all the time of their operation put into operation 37 ships, not counting small ships, and it was on them that the “Real Felipe” was built - the first three-deck ship in the history of the state, which was designed according to the precepts of Gastaniet himself. These testaments themselves were drawn up into one specific system, which clearly defined how to store materials for building ships, how to store and process them, what characteristics ships should have, what ratio of length to width, etc. - in short, it was a whole set of laws for shipbuilding, the “Ship’s Bible”, which, when followed, could build beautiful ships, which the Spaniards later did. He laid in the design of the Spanish ships what later became the "highlight" of Armada - excellent side protection of the ships, up to four layers of oak or mahogany, up to a meter thick, and even more, as a result of which it sometimes failed to break through the sides of the Spanish ships even at fire right up to the heaviest guns. In addition, a well-developed and standardized shipbuilding system made it possible to build ships not only cheaper and better, but also faster - in particular, thanks to the “Gastanyeta system” in Ferrol they could build frigates within a few months after the issuance of the order, mass and mass production, and, most importantly - cheap. True, this was achieved after the death of Gastagneta himself - too much time was required to set up the entire infrastructure, develop the nuances of the mechanism, develop practical skills, and train personnel. The same “Real Felipe”, being an excellent ship under the project, and quite well built, due to lack of wood, which was poorly prepared and stored, already a couple of years after the commissioning began to flow and dry up - which, however, did not prevent it to serve quite solid for their time 18 years. In fact, all subsequent shipbuilding in Spain was built on the works of Gastagneta, and his achievements were used and appreciated abroad.

In Motrico, his hometown, Gastagneta built a manor in which his descendants then lived. One of them was a modest and very smart boy, who, inspired by stories about his ancestor, also went to serve in Armada and achieved impressive achievements during his service, largely repeating the way of Gastagneta as an organizer and analyst. But he was not heard by the authorities and died at the Battle of Trafalgar. The name of this boy is Cosme Damian Churruka and Elors, and his figure left such a big mark in the history of Armada that he needs to devote a separate article. And that means the story is not over yet.

To be continued ...
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118 comments
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  1. +4
    16 August 2019 18: 24
    Thank you for the article.
    1. +8
      16 August 2019 20: 43
      +++++++
      I have not read for a long time, articles on VO in one breath !!! Thank you so much, respectfully Vlad!
      1. +6
        16 August 2019 20: 56
        Artyom can!
  2. +3
    16 August 2019 19: 07
    Thanks, very interesting article. We have a lot to learn from this extraordinary person.
  3. +5
    16 August 2019 20: 58
    Artyom! No words! "Just some kind of holiday!"
    1. +3
      16 August 2019 21: 03
      All right, these are trifles. I just started a new Aishka in Spain, and with my current approach, such a project automatically combines with large-scale educational work laughing Those. articles still continue to be "accompanying material" .... I, however, a little freaked out, how many topics have appeared to write these cases. I made a separate list, and realized that here only "accompanying materials" should be scribbled every day for two months wassat
      1. +4
        16 August 2019 21: 16
        And that's always the case. You undertake to "pick" something on the topic that interests you, you find out that "the men don't know", in general, they don't!
        1. +3
          16 August 2019 21: 21
          Or they know, but not that Yes One of the topics, for example, which I think I will once again untwist, is the question regarding the causes of revolutions in the American colonies of Spain. Bo I saw a variegated selection of these reasons, which usually indicate, but in fact there is something somehow somehow it is not traced laughing And revolutions sometimes look somehow, how to say it ... Generally not revolutionary.
          1. +2
            16 August 2019 21: 31
            For me, the reasons for the revolutionary movement in Latin America are generally a "secret behind seven seals"! Is that why people did not live peacefully ?!
            1. +3
              16 August 2019 21: 40
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              That's what people didn’t live peacefully ?!

              I would quote Barrymore, but I'm afraid that I will be banned for this quote, for the warning hangs already laughing But seriously - it was quite peaceful. But when in the metropolis hell and trash, also in the localities, are all sorts of different on B and M (these are surnames, if that) the house-pipe is shaken, it’s hard to keep calm ...
              1. +3
                16 August 2019 22: 37
                Not banned, too much competition.
                What's the name on the "M"? About "B", I know.
                1. +3
                  16 August 2019 22: 42
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  Not banned, too much competition.

                  Alas, banned. Here a colleague the Senior Sailor recently received a weekly ban for something similar to a ban, and within a few minutes after the comment. Better to overtake than not to overtake laughing
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  What's the name on the "M"?

                  Sebastian Francisco de Miranda and Rodriguez. One of the first "real" revolutionaries in Latin America, whom Bolivar surrendered to the royalists, eliminating a rival.
                  1. +3
                    16 August 2019 22: 51
                    He was embarrassed to ask: this is the same Senior Sailor ... So it turned out!
                    Here everyone, by me respected people (except you) has a ban, sometimes not just one.
                    "You are already eighteen, but you are still alive, it becomes indecent" (E. Lukin "Blind Guides")
      2. +2
        16 August 2019 21: 41
        Artyom, thanks. good So talk after that about the role of personality in history, or that "there are no irreplaceable people." smile
        1. +3
          16 August 2019 21: 47
          She already about the role of the personality in history even put the blame that I sometimes lean too much on her laughing Although sometimes it all comes down to personality ...
          1. +3
            16 August 2019 21: 57
            This is what we are talking about. About personality, in the sense. I was always struck by the difference in the results of the first two circumnavigations. I don’t know whether it’s true or not, but according to some sources, Drake ordered silver to be thrown overboard in order to preserve the guns. This is because even though Magellan was the first, there was more benefit from Drake’s campaign. And the finale of the raids was different for them.
            Well, it's me to get into a conversation with knowledgeable people. wink
            1. +3
              16 August 2019 22: 05
              Oh, Drake ... Something reminded me of the old idea of ​​telling about what they do not like to remember - about the jambs and mistakes of Drake. For example, when he was dribbling farther from the Spaniards than he saw, throwing his ships laughing In the Russian-speaking Internet, it is generally accepted that he always succeeded ...
              1. +2
                16 August 2019 22: 14
                I’m not talking about this, Artyom. Who does not have jambs? Only the one who does nothing. I'm talking about a round-the-world raid. Do not lose a single ship on such a trip, it is worth a lot. I will not be about the rest.
                I, unfortunately, do not remember the name of one "court" Soviet artist, but out of love for the topic, he made prints with portraits of famous pirates: Dampier, Dover and, of course, Drake. So, Drake was depicted on the bridge, a stiletto in his hand, and a steaming potato stuck on the stiletto. There is a tale that it was he who brought potatoes to Europe.
                1. +4
                  16 August 2019 22: 22
                  By the way about "not losing one" in the world. There is also something to say on this topic. laughing True, about one of the first round-the-world expeditions, where there were no losses from scurvy. Even sick EMNIP was not. We don’t really know about her and they know ...
                  1. +2
                    16 August 2019 22: 28
                    What kind of ships, which country, who commanded? Or will there be a separate article?
                    1. +5
                      16 August 2019 22: 33
                      I plan separately, but I don’t know exactly when - the expedition of Alejandro (Alessandro) Malaspina. There, in general, an interesting voyage turned out, they swam to Alaska, and a lot of things were done.
                      1. +3
                        16 August 2019 22: 53
                        And the time when it was? I don’t know anything about this trip. Although ... I don’t know much. request
                      2. +3
                        16 August 2019 22: 58
                        1789-1794 years. A little later La Perouse. He was quickly chosen to be "forgotten" even in Spain itself due to the fact that he participated in an anti-government conspiracy. In short, Spanish sailors succeeded everywhere - in politics, and in war, and in scientific research. I have 20 names on the list for this series of articles - there are almost all of them.
                      3. +2
                        16 August 2019 23: 02
                        Interestingly, the conspiracy began to fail? It is strange that these guys, Spanish sailors, did not in any way glorify themselves in both world wars. What a place - God himself commanded. smile
                      4. +3
                        16 August 2019 23: 06
                        By the time of world wars, even the sailors were not the same (although the characters on the list at the end of the 19th century were also on my list), and the Armada was greatly reduced. If Trafalgar the Spanish fleet could survive without problems (heavy losses, but not fatal), then the general decline of all of Spain - alas ... But what happened afterwards does not mean at all that it was before that - in fact, and I want to illustrate this series of articles. Moreover, the characters of the late XVIII century cause great respect for their, ahem, versatility - and seafarers, and researchers, and scientists, and many more. This, EMNIP, was not observed in the British Navy, yes, the French did, but not on such a scale. Although I can be very wrong. If I’m not mistaken, then Spain’s naval officer corps was essentially the color of the nation.
                      5. +2
                        16 August 2019 23: 13
                        Yes, that should be interesting. I somehow had little interest in Spanish affairs, I had the feeling that after the defeat of the Invincible Armada, Spain simply quietly left the world stage and fell silent in the dark. Turn on the light. smile
                      6. +2
                        16 August 2019 23: 20
                        That and not only you - the big Russian Internet thinks so. Some have a little better - before Rockrois, or the middle of the XVII century, but certainly the XVIII century is dark and hopeless, like the XIX. Although there is a huge difference, and in the days of the early Spanish Bourbons, the country was clearly on the rise, and played very prominent roles, including dividing together, without involving third countries, Italy and Austria request
                      7. +2
                        16 August 2019 23: 29
                        So write about it, Artyom, otherwise I only know how the Guerillas fought with the French, and then the dark forest and into the muddy swamp.
                      8. +3
                        16 August 2019 23: 40
                        Spain under Carlos III - one of the planned cycles. True, I have been planning on the Spanish-American War for three years already))) And so, my plans now look like this:

                        Cycle "Officers of the Armada"
                        Cycle "Spanish-American War"
                        Cycle "Spain under Carlos III"
                        Cycle (?) "Causes of Revolutions in the Colonies of the Spanish Empire"
                        The Great Siege of Gibraltar 1779-1783
                        State of the Spanish Armada in 1805
                        Cycle "Officers of the Spanish Army in 1808-1815"


                        And the list is replenished
                      9. +3
                        17 August 2019 01: 36
                        Just about: "Spanish-American War". I will wait with special impatience. drinks
                      10. +3
                        17 August 2019 01: 41
                        I want to write this cycle to him and write with a special approach, analyzing all the nuances regarding the armament of the army, the composition of the fleets, and other things. Considering everything, the description of "decorations" can take half a cycle. wassat
                      11. +3
                        17 August 2019 01: 47
                        But it’s right! If you have the patience, you need to literally dismantle each infantry barrel and equipment up to removable footcloths. It will be more complicated with the fleet, but the topic is worth it, how much has been written about this? Create, Artyom, I’m rubbing my little hands from lust. fellow
                      12. +3
                        17 August 2019 01: 52
                        With the fleet it is just easier, I have been "lighting it" for several years already, I know a lot, and I can easily make a description of the Spanish fleet with a description of everything and everyone. But with the army, everything is worse - even the method of recruiting is in question: I saw that military conscription in Spain already existed, but at the same time I saw complaints that there was an outdated recruitment system in Spain, and regiments that fought in Cuba, just were recruited. And who to believe? request However, I have several books in English and Spanish on the Spanish-American war, this information should be there.
                      13. +3
                        17 August 2019 02: 03

                        For fun, I climbed in now and typed "Spanish-American War Infantry Weapons." Crawled to fig pictures, but there is no sensible description for them. Here in this picture, the bolt and the magazine of the "Krag-Jorgensen" rifle, and I read earlier that this rifle was not in service in every state of the USA. So spin around and think to yourself what a mess they had there in weapons: each state chose for itself how to fight its adversary. wassat
                      14. +2
                        17 August 2019 02: 13
                        Welcome to the USA at the end of the 3th century)) There, even the armies of the Civil War were beyond good and evil. What the Yankees started the war with often caused more laughter. However, against the Spaniards, this, with some difficulties and shoals, was still enough - although it must be understood that the Spaniards were already exhausted by the long war with the rebellious Cubans. But this is all from memory, the details will have to be looked at separately. So far, I have uploaded another article to the site, and I am looking through the list of Armada officers in order to determine who to write next. There are 4-XNUMX "favorites", two of them have already been described, but further - the eyes run up ... All are equal, as if on selection!
                      15. +3
                        17 August 2019 02: 17
                        Good luck, Artyom, and see you tomorrow. U, I’m already working with my nose on the clave. smile drinks
                      16. +3
                        17 August 2019 02: 25
                        Good luck, colleague hi
                      17. +2
                        17 August 2019 07: 07
                        I suggest Artyom in a series to touch on the topic of our battleships, which we "presented" to Spain based on the results of the "Victory over Napoleon"!
                      18. +1
                        17 August 2019 12: 27
                        Somewhere on the Internet I saw a finished series of articles on this topic. Everything is detailed there, and clearly better than I can. I’ll try to find the link - maybe it was even on the topwar
    2. +3
      16 August 2019 21: 39
      Good evening, Anton. hi

      The tank still drove !!! laughing... in the image of Apukhtin. drinks
      1. +3
        16 August 2019 21: 48
        With the help, and with the participation of such characters, the tanks do not leave, they are buried, however, like the state.
        1. +3
          16 August 2019 22: 02
          Your cruelty sometimes amazes me! fellow Ever sent a pistol with one cartridge to anyone in the mail? good
          1. +3
            16 August 2019 22: 17
            No, only notes:
            "Decent women, after this, hang themselves.
            Worthy - give birth.
            Indecent - require alimony and life support " laughing
            1. +2
              16 August 2019 22: 21
              "A good horse is more important to the Cossack,
              To the steppe under the hooves sang,
              Hot blade and accordion
              And women are the last thing! " soldier
              1. +2
                16 August 2019 22: 30
                Oh, wei! So I'm sorry to ask, will this music play for the health of the old Cossack Rosenbaum? laughing
                1. +3
                  16 August 2019 22: 57
                  No way. Nobody had ever heard of an old Cossack with a fifth count. laughing A very old short film based on the stories of Sholokhov. And he took it off, you will be surprised, the well-known "Experienced" - Morgunov, this is in my opinion the only thing that he removed, but I liked everything. And the song "about women" from there.
                  1. +2
                    16 August 2019 23: 17
                    Despite the fifth column, who sang better than him?
                    "A scattering of stars in the sky
                    And I have grown together with the bay
                    Growth Stirrups
                    Do not shake the bow. "
                    1. +1
                      16 August 2019 23: 25
                      But how can I harvest the onion? Is das East Rosenbaum fantastic?
                      1. +2
                        16 August 2019 23: 31
                        Well, as it seems to me, on the "quays" laughing
                      2. +2
                        16 August 2019 23: 34
                        M-yes ... Well, what’s the answer ... Remember the parable about the dancer? request
                      3. +2
                        16 August 2019 23: 39
                        I remember. "Whoever dines on a girl dances her" laughing
                      4. +2
                        17 August 2019 01: 12
                        "Yes, there were times" (C), And "now I have become old, lazy ..." (C). request smile
                      5. +1
                        17 August 2019 07: 11
                        This is about what prevents a good dancer? feel
                      6. +1
                        18 August 2019 17: 35
                        Yeah, about the ento thing. laughing
  4. +4
    16 August 2019 21: 29
    Excellent! Nelson himself said about the Spanish fleet: "The Castilian Don builds beautiful ships. But they do not know how to educate the sailors. After many hours of effort, they are not able to keep the formation in the wake." Armada fired at a volley pace for 7 minutes. British navy two salvos in 3 minutes.
    1. +4
      16 August 2019 21: 44
      But sailors do not know how to educate. After many hours of effort they are unable to keep the formation in the wake. "The Armada fired at a salvo rate for 7 minutes. The British Navy had two volleys in 3 minutes.

      And what else can we expect from ships on which experienced sailors are sometimes less than half of the total personnel? It is difficult to pull out battles on only officers and "old men" when the British are in the enemy. However, the Spaniards sometimes managed to do something - however, the Anglo-Saxons do not like to remember this. About the "Glorioso" voyage there, or about how the 74-year-old old man, Admiral Cordova, took from His Majesty the King of England, Scotland and Ireland a convoy of more than fifty merchant ships with such a quantity of goods and money that almost a collapse did not happen in the metropolis. ..
      1. +3
        16 August 2019 21: 50
        It is sometimes useful for the "Lady of the Seas" to get a flick on the nose. Just out of fairness. smile
        1. +5
          16 August 2019 22: 07
          Just about one such click on the nose I’ll fill the article now hi When, due to the activities of the Spanish spy, the British Prime Minister is arrested - this, however, is strong!
          1. +3
            16 August 2019 22: 18
            Intriguing, Artyom! When to wait for something? I would like to get on the calculation along with the whole "gang". Beacon then, okay? drinks
            1. +5
              16 August 2019 22: 24
              Wait - in theory, starting tomorrow. And when exactly - no idea: it's up to the gentlemen of the moderators. My job is to upload it to the site and write on. So far I have been maintaining the "one article per day" pace hi
              1. +3
                16 August 2019 22: 26
                I got it. We will watch! hi
              2. +3
                17 August 2019 00: 15
                Buenos nights, Artyom! Is there infa about the books of the hero in Russia? He is kind of like a contemporary of Peter (or Peter is his contemporary). Knowing the naval aspirations of the emperor, such knowledge should not have passed by Pyotr Lekseich (it seems that there were Russian "tobacco captains" in Spain?)
                1. +3
                  17 August 2019 00: 19
                  I saw some information that Spanish books about these cases ended up in Russia, but in the "left" places, and for a long time already, so, alas, no specifics. It seems like the works were translated and published, but on a small scale, and did not gain wide distribution. Although naval literature in Russia in the XNUMXth century is generally, in my opinion, a separate topic, and it is never a small topic on which to dig and dig, there were enough writers from other countries as well, but about how we actively read it - I don't remember request
  5. +5
    16 August 2019 22: 13
    Jose had to return home already commanding his own ship
    ,,,romance winked and on the other hand you read the memories
    hunger, thirst, nausea, cold, inability to remain alone for a minute, not to mention the fact that it throws from side to side from terrible waves. The ship is teeming with small rodents that feed on cookies and biscuits and breed so fast that very soon they run not only in the cabins, beds, and even the plates people eat, and even the people themselves. Flies fall into soup bowls, where worms of all kinds also swim. Each piece of food is teeming with larvae. On fish days they usually feed rotten fish cooked in salt water; in the afternoon they eat bean soup, which has so many larvae that they swim on the surface. no, no, I don't want No.
    Dear author, if it’s not difficult for you, there is information what mortality was at that time on the sailing fleet?
    1. +4
      16 August 2019 22: 31
      Dear author, if it’s not difficult for you, there is information what mortality was at that time on the sailing fleet?

      No, because - which sounds strange - this is not quite my topic. About personalities - easily, about the general story - too, the design of the ships - yes, but I didn’t dive into such nuances, this is more likely to Makhov, he will tell me most about this subject. But in general, mortality was quite high - although it depended on the captain of the ship and the situation yet. The same Spaniards have completely opposite stories, when a rational captain stocked up on necessary products, and hit the road several times during the season to America and back without losses, but there is another story - when a newly built ship was distilled from Cuba, but it was not possible to stock up on necessary food, as a result, the team almost died out in full force. The largest losses are attributed to the UK - due to scurvy, tropical sores and other non-combat reasons, the loss of sailors for the whole XVIII century is estimated at EMNIP 1-2 million people. But this is rather the flip side of the world's first shipping - the Spaniards also had a lot of deaths, but they did not have as many ships as the English, and therefore the crews.
      1. +1
        16 August 2019 22: 38
        Quote: arturpraetor
        The largest losses are attributed to the UK - due to scurvy, tropical sores and other non-combat reasons, the loss of sailors for the entire XVIII century is estimated at 1-2 million people in EMNIP

        2 million people per 100 years is 20.000 souls per year on average. With an average crew of several dozen people at that time ... from 500 to 1000 vessels per year ... or from 50 to 100 per month ..
        Can you trim the tail? Or put out the lantern)
        1. +4
          16 August 2019 22: 51
          I said - EMNIP, and not 2 million, but 1-2. I don’t remember where exactly I saw these numbers, and in general I sent a colleague to Makhov, at the same time saying that it was not quite my topic.

          By the way, a few dozen crew members is a trifle. Large merchant ships had several hundred crew members, and the British had a lot of them, and the ships of the merchant fleet themselves were enough to rake a substantial share of the entire mob. country potential.
          1. +1
            16 August 2019 23: 06
            You expect more accurate information from a specialist ... The largest merchant ships typical of the 18th century rarely reached 500/600 tons of displacement ... and the crew was just a few dozen people. The coastline of 100 crew was reached by merchant ships only in the 19th century per 1000 tons "monsters"
            1. +4
              16 August 2019 23: 15
              Firstly, I have said more than once that the sailing fleet is not so much my topic as the armored steam fleet. Therefore, I can be mistaken, especially regarding the merchant fleet, which I am always interested in last.
              Secondly, large merchant ships back in the 1 half of the eighteenth century, if necessary, were re-equipped with 60 or 70 cannon battleships, and this is accurate information (the same Spaniards practiced this for the first time). To load so many artillery in the 500-600 tons is somewhat problematic, even if you take small-caliber guns.
              Thirdly, large merchant ships were not always, but often carried a certain amount of artillery. For artillery, a servant is needed, from 3-4 people and more. A merchant ship, even with 12 cannons, can already approach a hundred people in terms of crew size.
              1. 0
                16 August 2019 23: 18
                Do you seriously think that there was a separate artillery servant on the merchant ships?) Or did "ordinary" sailors become cannonmen if necessary?)
                1. +4
                  16 August 2019 23: 22
                  Do you seriously think that on large merchant ships, in the event of a battle, they scored for control (i.e. working with sails), and drove the entire crew to the guns? The artillery on the ship is, anyway, still an additional crew, otherwise it’s useless, like with a goat of milk, if you have to leave people to work with sails in battle or send them to guns.
                  1. +1
                    16 August 2019 23: 27
                    I don't think ... I know). "Pure" gunners were simply unprofitable ... it's all the same the merchant fleet. Profit is needed there. And statistically it was necessary to shoot very rarely and no one was going to keep a horde of idlers with guns ... it was economically unprofitable as it is now fashionable to say)
                    1. +5
                      16 August 2019 23: 38
                      I completely agree with you that the crews of most ships did not exceed 30-50 people. But the big merchants were sometimes very, very armed, and obviously not equipped with "anyhow" calculations. If you want, go read about the Dance battle, at least on the same Wikipedia, and what information is given there about the ships (crews of up to 100-150 people, up to 1200 tonnes of displacement, up to 30-36 artillery barrels). That's what I said about THESE ships, the East Indies "merchants" were always large enough, and it was them that were converted into battleships, if suddenly it got very hot.
                      1. +1
                        16 August 2019 23: 43
                        This is already the 19th century. And such ships are sooooo expensive in a rather limited number to lose 50 pieces a month .. almost 2 a day). I doubt that then the ships were built at such a speed)
                        Agree that the figure of 1/2 million only non-combat losses, it’s not even taken from the ceiling ... no matter who the author
                      2. +5
                        16 August 2019 23: 57
                        Firstly, its very beginning. I doubt that they began to be built strictly after the 1800 year.
                        Secondly, I have already pointed out that the Spaniards made ersatz-linear ships out of their East Indian ships, arming them quite heavily. This implies certain dimensions. They did so in the 1 half of the 18th century.
                        Thirdly, it was not about the loss of ships, it was about losses among the crews.
                        Fourthly, I did not claim that this figure is correct. If you didn’t notice, there were so many reservations in front of her that only a lazy one could accept her on faith. I directly sent a man to Makhov, who would say better than me that there was a loss, and then brought information from what I remember on this topic - but it’s not necessary that I remember correctly.
                        Fifth, you forget about the loss of crews in wartime. There, due to the necessary crowding of people, the losses sometimes went through the roof, and this is a wonderful atmosphere, favorable for a bunch of sores. In one Seven Years, the British fleet suffered non-combat losses in 133,7 of thousands of people. How many times did Britain fight in the eighteenth century?
                      3. 0
                        17 August 2019 00: 07
                        Either I read inattentively or it was exclusively about the loss of the merchant fleet due to starvation and related illnesses. And the same scurvy or dysentery if it hit the crew in the conditions of that terrible crowding and unsanitary conditions in those conditions, is usually a sentence for everyone and therefore a ship. ..if he is not a Flying Dutchman) .In Genoa, in the Old Port there is a museum-an exact copy of a ship of that era. They made for some kind of historical film. A Neptune ship is called if memory fails. I visited it. Believe me .. there are 10 people who are used to modern conditions have nowhere to fit ... and they huddled there for 50/60 years. So the sore throat was the simplest, one at a laugh. There were no antibiotics and other things. So any such sore is the death of everyone and the ship too
                      4. +2
                        17 August 2019 00: 15
                        No, it might seem to you, due to my, ahem, not quite rational manner of speaking, that it was only about the merchant fleet when I hinted at it. By mentioning the large merchant fleet, I wanted to show that a breakthrough of people was involved in marine affairs (honestly, I don’t even remember the exact numbers, but the EMNIP there are hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people every year, and they recruited everyone in a row, regardless of nationality - EMNIP Trafalgar on Nelson’s ships was even Russian, but I can be mistaken with time), much more than in other fleets. Consequently, the losses there could be greater in numbers - but in relative terms, no more than others.

                        As for the "non-combat" losses of the fleet, yesterday literally somewhere I met figures that in a distant overseas voyage until the 1790s, losses of 40-50% of the crew were considered acceptable. Far - in the sense, to India, or the Pacific Ocean, although even sailing to America and back without losing anyone from malaria or some other rubbish was problematic. And if, God forbid, sailors from the tropics are taken to the northern latitudes, then dozens will also die from an unsuitable climate.
                      5. +1
                        17 August 2019 00: 29
                        Well, if you consider everything, it could be .. On warships, crowding and, accordingly, mortality was orders of magnitude higher than on trade ....
                        Although the concept of "non-combat losses" at that time is more than a relative concept. In that era, sinking a ship in battle was more than difficult ... In the epochal Battle of Trafalgar, the Britons sank only 1 enemy ship ... the rest were either stormy or captives surrendered. And the British themselves did not lose a single ship). In the same epoch-making victories of Ushakov over the Turks for the Russians, the losses were also numbered in dozens of people .... So in reality 99,9% of the losses of the fleets in those days were "non-combat" in fact)
                      6. +3
                        17 August 2019 00: 37
                        In that era, sinking a ship in battle was more than complicated ...

                        At one time, even statistics were cited, in an article on the organization of the Armada in 1805-1808, on a 1 a sunken ship - almost 10 captured.
                        So in reality, 99,9% of the losses of fleets in those days were "non-combat" in fact

                        Yes, how can I say ... The losses in the battles were still quite large, albeit in relative terms. But there are far fewer non-combat ones, especially if the fleet operated immediately around the world, in unusual climatic conditions. There, the British when Cartagena unsuccessfully besieged, EMNIP 2 / 3 of all losses - not even from scurvy, but from dysentery and malaria. Welcome to the tropics!
                      7. +2
                        17 August 2019 00: 51
                        By the way ... to argue with you, I scanned several works obliquely on the topic ... An interesting detail ... At the end of the 18th century, according to the law of the foreigners, there could not be more than 25% of the crew in the merchant fleet of England .. and in the navy there was no such restriction was). And the salary of a merchant seaman was much higher than that of a military sailor. Accordingly, the best were in the merchant navy)
                      8. +3
                        17 August 2019 00: 54
                        I heard this, but did not see specific figures. However, I am sure that the merchant sailors did not have to relax - in the event of a war, the British often recruited people from the merchant fleet (albeit quite limited), they still had a chance to thunder in the Royal Navy and, while singing "Oak Hearts", perform feats in the name of the Fatherland. laughing
                      9. +1
                        17 August 2019 00: 58
                        I found it there .. at the time of the Napoleonic wars, the number of the British navy was in the region of 110/140 000 people. I expect much more in the merchant sector. With a population of the then England of 11 million, there were huge difficulties in recruiting
                      10. +3
                        17 August 2019 01: 02
                        But by this time the British had completely overcome most of the diseases, primarily scurvy. According to the Napoleonic Wars, the statistics saw the losses of the fleet - non-combat (i.e. not killed and died from wounds, not deserters, etc., only diseases), something in the region of 4% of the total, which is a very, very good level. The case when it is urgently necessary to "pump" medicine and everything connected with it, in the war with the 40-million-strong French Empire, is, to put it mildly, not superfluous both in the army and in the navy.
                      11. +1
                        17 August 2019 01: 06
                        By the way, on deserters. I read it there. For 5 years in the late 70s and the beginning of the 80s of the same 18th century there were more than 40.000 deserters in the British Navy. 10 thousand a year ... about 10% of the total fleet ..
                        Funny numbers for the most powerful and well-paid fleet of that period)
                      12. +2
                        17 August 2019 01: 10
                        Considering the work of the recruitment services of Royal Navy, deserters had a chance to get into the fleet for the 2, 3, 5, or even 10 times laughing I suppose many of them really did go back and forth, periodically going on "unpaid leave." It seems like I read something like that at one time, but I don't remember the details. But, be that as it may, the fleet was provided with personnel, and its training was very good. The Spaniards also had problems with recruiting, but they were noticeably big, and the training of the rank and file was not very good. Actually, one of the main problems of the Armada at that time. The French, as I recall, too, but after the Revolution there were also problems with officers.
                      13. +1
                        17 August 2019 01: 16
                        The French and the Spaniard were worse off with the recruitment of sailors than the English because of the recruitment system. The English recruited money.

                        And the French forcefully. The so-called classement system that Colbert introduced in the 60s of the 17th century. Simplified inhabitants of coastal regions were forcibly assigned to the fleet. The Spanish introduced the same system in 1737.
                      14. +2
                        17 August 2019 01: 21
                        The Spaniards and the French introduced it, but the system didn’t work in the 18th century, as it should — more than once I saw references to how the French and Spanish fleet recruiters traveled through the interior of the country to recruit at least someone, because the coastal areas were cleaned out. Well, the fact that they paid a little - so the Royal Navy sailors did not bathe in money, and the British fleet also carried out forced recruitment, but in Britain it is the largest employer, and in Spain the fleet's reputation among the population was, to put it mildly, not very - to die there are many chances, the fee is small, and from 1795 onwards they have been paid occasionally, they require a lot. Plus, even though France and Spain did not have such a large merchant fleet - but there was an army that also required human resources oh wei. Sobsno, she usually raked the best recruits in the same way as she raked the best merchant fleet of England.
                      15. +2
                        17 August 2019 01: 23
                        Tomorrow I’m going to work in the morning ... probably already today) .. Thanks for the discussion and a good weekend hi
                      16. +2
                        17 August 2019 01: 25
                        And you success hi
                  2. 0
                    16 August 2019 23: 33
                    Here is a typical merchant ship of the beginning of the 19th century .... Moreover, of the largest. And in the 18th century, the bulk of the merchant fleet was vessels with a displacement of 300/600 tons .. that is, 2/3 times less than this

                    By 1800, the East Indian ship is already well distinguishable by sight from ordinary "merchants." For example, the 958-ton HEICS Asia (1811) had a length of 149 feet 3 inches (45,5 m), a width of 38 feet 9 inches (11,8 m), 26 cannons, a team of 118 people [7]. He is bigger, better armed, better kept and more like a warship. By this time, the tonnage of the largest reached 1400 tons, and outwardly they resembled 64-gun battleships. However, their armament was not more than 30–35 guns, and not guns or carronades, but “cannonade” - another invention of the Company in order to save. The cannonades had neither the range and accuracy of the guns, nor the destructive power of the carronades, and certainly were not good against a regular warship. The number of teams rarely exceeded 100-150 people, which was completely insufficient to reflect the boarding
        2. +5
          16 August 2019 23: 04
          In vain you are so, dear Town Hall. It’s hard to catch anyone as a forgery of social and demographic calculations.
          1. +5
            16 August 2019 23: 17
            Forgery - no, but I could be wrong. Especially when I use the terms "EMNIP", "not a specialist in this matter" and "go to such a specialist, he will tell you better." So what can you do, I'm not Google to know absolutely everything, and not a machine to remember everything with accuracy request
            1. +3
              16 August 2019 23: 44
              I'm still waiting for you to write material on historical demography
              1. +3
                16 August 2019 23: 59
                what But am I really going to write?
                1. +3
                  17 August 2019 00: 04
                  No, they were not going to, but I was very intrigued by the words about my own method of calculating the number of troops in a particular battle. I hope someday enlighten ...
                  1. +2
                    17 August 2019 00: 08
                    I do not think this material is suitable for topwar. This is perhaps somewhere on other resources.
                    1. +3
                      17 August 2019 00: 16
                      That is, the article about the t / s "Catch 22" is suitable for the resource, but the material about the models of historical demography is not?
                      1. +3
                        17 August 2019 00: 21
                        It seems that it is not for nothing that I do not go to other sections of the site, except for "Armament" and "History" wassat No, I’ll think, of course, but such an article has not yet been planned. Well, in the end, I can’t forget about work, although I can laughing
                      2. +3
                        17 August 2019 00: 30
                        I also did not go until I began to be guided by the motto of your online image. laughing
                        I will wait for the material, very interesting!
                        The series is really good!
          2. +1
            16 August 2019 23: 20
            I'm not saying that this is a forgery. It is simply superficial when presenting information. And the materials are interesting, I read with pleasure)
            1. +4
              16 August 2019 23: 47
              Well, damn it, if Artem surfaces, then how can you evaluate other similar materials?
              1. +1
                16 August 2019 23: 50
                To whom much is given, so much is required). To this figure, he clearly "frivolously" reacted .. it "cuts" the eye of even a layman like me .. ordinary common sense says that this could not be
          3. +1
            16 August 2019 23: 23
            Greetings by the way hi
            1. +2
              16 August 2019 23: 41
              My regards! hi
              1. +1
                16 August 2019 23: 48
                Disputes are the salt of discussions for me and enrich the participants. Of course, if all is in respectful tones to the interlocutor.
                1. +3
                  16 August 2019 23: 51
                  Without any doubt!
      2. +2
        16 August 2019 22: 58
        Thanks for the answer hi mean Makhov recourse
        ,, no? we will search ,, (c)
    2. +3
      16 August 2019 22: 53
      And this is the first stage of hunger. And in Magellan’s voyage, prices reached ducat per rat.

      And crowding is a separate song. Where the hammock is located.
  6. +5
    16 August 2019 22: 35
    Great. The story in the faces comes to life immediately.
  7. +6
    16 August 2019 22: 43
    Admiral, you are defeated. No matter how sad
    Good luck turned away from you today;
    Your heart is dark and piercingly empty:
    Everything is as it is - no offense, no embellishment ...
    You would have to replay - just aim not aim,
    Do not replace the dice badges!
    Let wine by candlelight romantically
    You are in captivity, at least almost visiting!
    crying
    1. +5
      16 August 2019 22: 49
      How Chancellor Guy hit the target with this song.
      1. +4
        16 August 2019 22: 52
        ,, directly begs for this article today wink
  8. +6
    16 August 2019 22: 56
    Wonderful article, Artem, thanks. I didn’t read during the day, but evening reading was a pleasure. I am glad that the topic is completely unfamiliar to me, I will be enlightened. smile
    1. +6
      16 August 2019 23: 00
      One of the reasons why I pay much attention to this topic is precisely its lack of coverage in the Russian segment of the Internet. I was once offered to write a series about the RIF about the sailors - I could not, because everyone knows about them and everyone writes. But about the Spaniards, if we have anything, it’s not a fact that it’s correct.
      1. +5
        17 August 2019 08: 38
        A statement by Artyom of a rare case at VO - not a single “dirty” commentary on your work! Thanks again!!!
        Regards, Vlad!
        1. +1
          17 August 2019 12: 28
          It’s not yet evening, in the sense that the article is less than a day on the main page, still ahead laughing However, he is in shock.
  9. +4
    16 August 2019 22: 57
    Great article! read with great pleasure!
  10. +2
    17 August 2019 15: 36
    Thanks, informative .... hi

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