Military Review

Fading Tortuga and the death of Port Royal

57
In this article we will talk about the end of the great era of the Tortuga and Port Royal filibusters.


The resignation and death of Bertrand d'Ogeron


Bertrand d'Ogeron, who ruled Tortuga for 10 years and did so much for the prosperity of this island, died in France.

Fading Tortuga and the death of Port Royal

This is what Bertrand d'Ogeron saw the audience of the Soviet-French film 1991


The circumstances of his return were sad. In 1674, a special commission appointed to audit the financial condition of the French West Indies company (on behalf of which d'Ogeron controlled Tortuga) revealed a deficit of 3 livres, the king being the most affected investor. As a result, in December 328, the West Indies Company was liquidated, and all colonies overseas were declared royal property. D'Ogeron had nothing to do with these frauds; after his death, he did not even have any property or funds that should have been transferred to the heirs. Left out of work, he returned to France at the end of 553, where he tried to interest the authorities in new colonization projects, but fell ill and died on January 1674, 1675. For a while they forgot about him and his merits. Only in October 31 in the Paris Church of Saint-Severin at the initiative of Pierre Margrey, Deputy Director of the Archive fleet and colonies, a memorial plaque was installed with the inscription:
“On the last day of January 1676, in the parish of St. Severin’s church, on Mason-Sorbonne, Bertrand d'Ogeron, Mr. de la Buer from Jaillier, who laid the foundations of civil society and religion among the filibusters and 1664 for years, died buccaneers of the islands of Tortuga and Saint-Domeng. Thus, by unknown ways of providence, he prepared the fate of the Republic of Haiti. ”



Saint Severin Church, Paris, Latin Quarter, near the Sorbonne


Jacques Nepvoe de Poinsay as Governor of Tortuga


D'Ageron's nephew, Jacques Nepvé de Poinsay, who remained in Tortug for the governor, continued the policy of encouraging flibusters, including English ones, from Jamaica, whose governor complained that his lieutenant (deputy) Henry Morgan was sending corsairs for letters of letters of honor to Tortuga, for which he receives from them a certain share of the extraction. The number of corsairs of Tortuga and Saint-Domingo in those years, researchers determine in 1000 - 1200 people.

In 1676, the Dutch squadron Jacob Binkes approached the shores of Hispaniola and Tortuga, who in 1673 together with Commodore Cornelis Evertsen the Younger very successfully acted against the British and French, capturing 34 of the enemy ship and sinking 50. 9 August 1673 Mr. He even captured New York. Now, Evertsen has taken possession of the French colonies in Cayenne and on the islands of Marie-Galante and Saint-Martin. After that, he turned to the Buccaneers of Tortuga and Saint-Domingo, urging them to accept the citizenship of the Netherlands and promising them permission to bring blacks (which they were denied by the French authorities) and "the satisfaction of free trade with all nations."

On 15 of July 1676, a naval battle took place near Tortuga, in which the Dutch participated in battleship 2 battleships, frigate and privateer sloop, on the French side - a significant number of small vessels, which, combined, were inferior to the enemy in terms of crew and number of guns . The battle ended in a complete victory for the Dutch: under their fire, the French threw their ships into coastal shallows and hid on the shore. The Dutch managed to lift and repair three of them, but they did not dare to land.

In February 1678, Mr. de Poinset, at the head of a flotilla of 12 corsair ships that housed about 1000 filibusters, went to the island of Saint-Christopher, where he joined with the royal squadron of Count d'Estre to jointly attack the Netherlands-owned island of Curacao. The beginning of this expedition was marked by a terrible shipwreck near the Aves Islands: on the night of 10 on 11 on May, 7 battleships, 3 vehicles and 3 filibuster ships sank. Human losses amounted to more than 500 people. The expedition failed, the commander of the filibusters de Grammon was allowed to pick up everything he needed from the wrecked ships and go on a “free hunt”. Together with Grammon, about 700 corsairs of Tortuga and the Coast of Saint-Domeng went. His squadron went to the shores of modern Venezuela, where the corsairs managed to capture the cities of Maracaibo, Trujillo, the village of San Antonio de Gibraltar and take 5 Spanish ships as prizes. The total value of the loot amounted to 150 thousand pesos (piastres). It was less than the booty that Francois Olon and Henry Morgan were able to capture in Maracaibo, but not one of the pirates was killed in this campaign.

Another initiative of Jacques Nepvé de Poinsay was an attempt to negotiate with the Spaniards on the recognition of French rights to the western part of the island of Hispaniola (which was already not controlled by the Spanish authorities), but he did not succeed. However, in 1679, the Spaniards nevertheless recognized the French rights to Tortuga.

In the same year, a certain Pedro Juan, whom the local French called Padrejean, rebelled on Tortuga. He was a slave to the Spaniard from Santo Domingo, who killed his master and fled to Tortuga. Leading a small detachment of 25 runaway black slaves, he raided colonial settlements. But local buccaneers and settlers themselves were decisive and very harsh people: without the participation of the authorities, they found the rebels and shot them.


Buccaneer with musket, tin figurine by Julio Cabos


In 1682, a tropical hurricane caused significant damage to the Tortuga settlements; in 1683, a fire that broke out on the ruins of one of the buildings that collapsed during this storm almost destroyed the island's main city - Baster. He was never destined to recover from the consequences of these natural disasters.

The Fading and Desolation of Tortuga


In 1683, Jacques Nepvé de Poinsay died on the island of Hispaniola, the only heir was his matlot Halishon. The successor to Poinsett as governor of Tortuga and the Coast of Saint-Domeng was appointed sier de Kussi, who assumed office on 30 on April 1684 and managed the colony until 1691. This period was marked by the appearance of tobacco plantations in the western part of Hispaniola (French Coast of Saint-Domigne) and on Tortug.


Tobacco plantation, 1855 engraving. Working conditions have not changed much since the end of the 17th century.


However, there was little free space on Tortug; suitable soils for cultivating tobacco were quickly depleted. In addition, the lack of fresh water has traditionally hindered the development of agriculture (there are no rivers on Tortuga, there are few sources, and rainwater has to be collected). As a result, the number of French colonists on the Coast of Saint-Domengo (western part of Hispaniola) was constantly growing, and the role of Tortuga, as a colony, was gradually decreasing.

The era of filibusters also declined, and with a decrease in the number of corsair ships, the harbor of Baster and Cayon. As a result, it was decided to develop French possessions in the north and west of Hispaniola - to the detriment of the old settlements in Tortuga. The new governor of Tortuga and the Coast of Saint-Domeng - Jean-Baptiste du Cass, wrote in 1692:

“The island of Tortuga is absolutely not worthy of attention ... This island was the first conquest of the French and the refuge of pirates for forty years. Today he gives nothing; the people who are there remain only there in order to remain idle and idle; I’ll transfer them as soon as they heed the voice of reason to a settlement in Port de Paix. ”



The Governor of Tortuga and the Coast of Saint-Domeng Jean-Baptiste du Cass. Portrait of Iacent Rigaud, Fleet Museum, Paris


The resettlement of Tortuga residents was completed in 1694 and the once thriving base of filibusters ceased to exist.

And in 1713, the last blow was also inflicted on the corsairs of the Coast of Saint-Domeneg: France declared any form of piracy illegal - and the filibusters then finally left the once hospitable island of Hispaniola. Some of them were hired for royal service, others still tried, at their own peril and risk, to attack ships in the Caribbean.

Again Tortuga was settled (more precisely, already Tortu) began only from the beginning of the twentieth century.

Tortu Island today


It seems logical to assume that at present, after the release of the famous movie saga "Pirates of the Caribbean", Tortu is experiencing a tourist boom. The coast is simply obliged to be built up with hotels, numerous "pirate taverns" and "buccaneer huts" must offer rum and meat according to the famous recipe. A comfortable copy of the Black Pearl (under the command of Jack Sparrow, of course) should be brought daily to tourists to a theme park with a computerized model of a kraken and a life-size Flying Dutchman, from the ports of the neighboring Dominican Republic. Huge cruise liners, cruising on the Caribbean Sea, also should not bypass this island.


Coast of Tortu Island (Tortuga)



These sea turtles gave the name to the island of Tortu (Tortuga). This photo was taken in the waters of the Dominican Republic, but exactly the same turtles can be found off the coast of Tortu


Alas, Tortu belongs to one of the poorest and most disadvantaged countries in the world - the Republic of Haiti (part of the Northwest Department), and in some villages of this island there is still no electricity. At the same time, it is argued that the standard of living is even higher than in other regions of the Republic of Haiti (which, in the most paradoxical way, coexists on the same island as not very rich, but against the background of its neighbors, which seems to be a completely prosperous Dominican Republic).


The Republic of Haiti and the Dominican Republic



Santo Domingo, capital of the Dominican Republic



Port au Prince, capital of the Republic of Haiti


And while the Dominican Republic is world famous for its resorts and beaches, Haiti has become famous as the birthplace of one of the three main types of Voodoo cult, namely the Haitian variety, which experienced a significant influence of Christianity. Few people know that in 1860, Pope Pius IX recognized this cult as one of the branches of Catholicism.


Pope Pius IX. The one who achieved the adoption of the dogmas of the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary and the infallibility of the popes, continued the “great castration” of the antique sculptures of the Vatican, begun back in the 16th century, was declared the “servant of God” by John Paul II and canonized 3 of September 2000 g.


And another pope, John Paul II, once said that he respects the practicing voodoo priests and recognizes the “fundamental virtue” inherent in the teaching and belief of voodoo. In 1993, he even honored with his presence one of these ceremonies.


John Paul II and the Voodoo Priest


And this is one of the culprits of the current plight of the country: the “banana” dictator Francois Duvalier (“Papa Doc”), who declared himself a voodoo priest and “leader of the dead”:



In general, the Republic of Haiti can rightfully be called one of the most miserable and impoverished countries in the world. And therefore, for a long time we will not see on Tortu island either luxury hotels, a huge amusement park, or sails filled with tourists "Black Pearl".


By the way, did you ever wonder what kind of ship the famous “Black Pearl” is? Is it a frigate, galleon, brig? According to some experts, it is a fantasy ship that incorporates the features of the 17th century English galleon, the “Dunkirk frigate” and the Dutch pinas


And this is “Flying Dutchman” from the movie “Pirates of the Caribbean”. From July 5 to 2006, until 2010, he stood on the Bahamian island of Garda Cay, where The Walt Disney Company opened a theme park in 1998, and the island itself was renamed Castaway Cay - Shipwreck Reef:


Castaway Kay: “Real” “Flying Dutchman” from the movie “Pirates of the Caribbean” on the background of the ocean liner


Maybe someday Tortu will be able to boast of something similar. But today, almost nothing reminds of the speakerphone. stories of this island. His only attraction now is some old ship (outwardly resembling a Spanish galleon) at Baster’s harbor.


Tortuga, an old ship at Baster Bay


What kind of ship it is, and where it came from there, no one can say, but a few tourists actively take pictures of it, then posting on the Internet photos of an "almost real pirate ship."

The sad fate of Port Royal


The fate of Port Royal was also sad, which, unlike the cities of Tortuga, grew and developed at an enviable pace.

Nothing boded ill when 7 of June 1692 of the year “the sky turned red like a red-hot furnace. The earth rose and swelled like sea water, began to crack and absorb people. "



In 1953, divers from the Sea diver research vessel lifted gold watches from the bottom of the sea, made in Amsterdam (master Paul Blodel) in 1686. Their hands stopped forever at 11 hours 43 minutes - thanks to this find, we know the exact time of this disaster.

One by one, the three strongest tremors destroyed the city. Under a layer of hard sandstone, there were groundwater, they came to the surface and the streets turned into a quick swamp, which instantly swallowed hundreds of houses along with their inhabitants. The death of these people was terrible: the rector of St. Paul’s Cathedral, Emmanuel Heath, recalled that when the sand hardened again, “in many places people’s hands, legs or heads stuck out”.


When the sand hardened again, "hands, feet, or heads of people stuck out in many places." Medieval drawing


Lucky was the local merchant Lewis Galdi, who, like many unfortunate ones, fell into quicksand, but was suddenly thrown out of it with a new earthquake push. And the coastal part of the city "moved" to the sea. The forts James and Carlisle have forever gone into the water, only occasionally Ford Rupert now appears from the water. Fort Charles survived, whose commandant had previously, as we recall from the previous article (Privatirs and corsairs of the island of Jamaica) later (in 1779 gg.) was the captain I rank Horatio Nelson, and Fort Walker, which is located on a small island.


Fort Charles Marititime museum, Jamaica, Kingston suburbs, modern photo


Contemporaries recalled how the bells of St. Paul's Cathedral, ringing in the wind, ringing at this time - as if saying goodbye to the city and burial of its inhabitants, but soon they were silent.

Robert Rennes wrote in The History of Jamaica (1807):
“All the piers were sunk at once, and for two minutes the city’s 9 / 10 was covered with water that rose to such a height that it poured into the upper rooms of the houses, which still remained standing. The tops of the tallest houses were visible above the water, surrounded by the masts of the ships that were drowning along with the buildings. ”



The death of Port Royal, engraving


The city cemetery went into the sea - and the bodies of the dead swam alongside the corpses of long-dead people. Among others, Henry Morgan, the former vice-governor of Jamaica and the recognized leader of the island’s privates, was buried here. People later said that, having swallowed his remains, "the sea took away for itself what was rightfully due to him for a long time."

The destruction of the city was completed by the tsunami waves, which were also destroyed by the ships standing in the harbor of Port Royal: there were 50, one of them was military, the rest belonged to merchants and privateers. But here the frigate "Swan", pulled ashore for repairs, the tsunami wave picked up and carried ashore, where it crashed into the roof of a dilapidated building. Archaeologists then estimated that 13 acres of urban territory went into the water as a result of the earthquake, and another 13 acres were washed away into the sea by tsunami waves.


Port Royal now, before and after the earthquake. In a modern photograph, Port Royal: The orange line shows the boundaries of the city before the 1692 earthquake; yellow - its boundaries after the earthquake



Port Royal ruins, underwater shooting


And then looters came to the ruined city. E. Heath reports:
“As soon as night fell, a group of obscene crooks attacked open warehouses and abandoned houses, robbed and shot their neighbors, while the earth trembled beneath them, and houses fell upon some of them; and those impudent whores who still remained in place were as arrogant and drunk as ever. ”


Eyewitnesses recalled that the dead were stripped and their fingers were cut off to remove the rings.

The consequences of this disaster were terrible: from 1800 to 2000 houses were destroyed, about 5000 people were killed. No less terrible were the more distant consequences: because of the many unburied bodies that decomposed in the sun, an epidemic began, which claimed the lives of several thousand more people.

In Europe and America, the death of Port Royal was perceived by everyone as a heavenly punishment, which finally befell the “wicked and sinful city.” Moreover, even the members of the Council of Jamaica who gathered two weeks later decided that "we have become an example of the harsh judgment of the Most High."

Most of the surviving citizens moved to nearby Kingston, and the British colonial administration has since settled there. Kingston has since been the capital of Jamaica. However, some residents of Port Royal did not want to leave the city - they began to build new houses on the other side of the harbor. But the time of this city, apparently, really passed away: at first it burned down in the fire of 1703, and then several hurricanes buried the remains of the old Port Royal, under a layer of silt and sand. Until 1859, one could still see the ruins of half-sand-covered houses, but a new earthquake in 1907 destroyed the last traces of "Pirate Babylon."


Kingston Consequences of the 1907 earthquake


A small settlement on the site of Port Royal is still preserved, now there are about 2000 fishermen and their families.


Modern Port Royal



Modern Kingston Map


But even having lost their bases on Tortuga and Port Royal, the corsairs for some time continued to attack ships in the Caribbean and the Gulf of Mexico. The new center of filibusters has become the island of the Bahamas archipelago of New Providence. At the beginning of the XVIII century, the Spaniards and the French, unwillingly, helped the Spaniards and the French, after the attack of which in 1703 and 1706, most of the English colonists left this troubled island. Filibusters who didn’t reconcile with the loss of old bases went here. It was in the Bahamian city of Nassau that the "star" of one of the most famous pirates in history - Edward Ticha, better known under the nickname "Black Beard", rose. It was there and at that time that Jack Sea's "Amazonian" Calico, Ann Bonnie and Mary Reed, would be destined to become famous.

About the pirates of the island of New Providence and the peculiar pirate republic of Nassau will be described in the next article.


Anne Bonnie, Edward Teach (Blackbeard), Edward England and their adversary, also a former corsair - Woods Rogers on stamps of the Commonwealth of the Bahamas
Author:
Articles from this series:
Ryzhov V.A. Filibusters and buccaneers
Ryzhov V.A. Tortuga. Caribbean Paradise Filibusters
Ryzhov V.A. The Golden Age of Tortuga Island
Ryzhov V.A. Privatirs and corsairs of the island of Jamaica
Sir Henry Morgan. The most famous corsair of Jamaica and the West Indies
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  1. Theodore
    Theodore 24 August 2019 05: 35
    +6
    Ndaaa! The popes surprised me! First one, then a Pole.
    1. VLR
      24 August 2019 08: 54
      +20
      Popes are, in general, such a bunch of perverts and sadists that they are dumbfounded every time you start working. Even though you know this very well, it is still impossible to get used to it. I've touched it again now while working on an article about "Pope John" (this is a little later, there are 2 more articles about corsairs ahead). Well, as for John Paul II, this "progressive pope", remembered by everyone mainly as a cute smiling old man, in fact, is an old man not even with a double, but a triple bottom, several more will be written about him and his reign dissertations, but not now - because tolerasts and liberals will raise such a howl, and will literally declare it an "enemy of humanity".
      1. Phil77
        Phil77 24 August 2019 09: 12
        +4
        Good morning, Valery! And again I read your article with pleasure. And thank you again! Regarding the popes, so what do you want from the * servants of God * who offered, well, not yourself, but who approved the indulgences, the Inquisition and, most importantly, the Crusades !
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 24 August 2019 10: 08
          0
          Hello Sergey! You have a somewhat biased look at some of the institutions of the Catholic Church. hi
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 24 August 2019 10: 15
            +4
            Hello Anton! I don’t agree. Indulgences, how can you atone for sin for money?, Inquisition-och., Och. Many innocent victims (false denunciations, account numbers), crusades, well, that all this mass is chained to steel with a cross on his chest rushed to free the sepulcher of God? Yes, real conquest campaigns and that’s all.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 24 August 2019 10: 39
              +1
              Let's discuss this topic in the evening? I'm at work...
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 24 August 2019 10: 46
                +2
                I sympathize with you! And I'm on vacation, here it is happiness! I uploaded a sea of ​​books and bliss! good
                1. Astra wild
                  Astra wild 24 August 2019 12: 30
                  +3
                  Alas, I have a job + hack work, otherwise it’s impossible now. Therefore, it remains only to envy you
                  1. Phil77
                    Phil77 24 August 2019 13: 33
                    +2
                    Quote: Astra wild
                    Alas, I have a job + hack work, otherwise it’s impossible now. Therefore, it remains only to envy you

                    C'mon! Everyone has this glorious time, only one trouble — you have been waiting for him for a year, and he, fyu-i! Tomorrow to work! bully
            2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 24 August 2019 15: 46
              +9
              Quote: Phil77
              Indulgences - how can you atone for money for money?

              I'm afraid, Sergey, you do not understand very well what indulgence is. And there everything is quite complicated. I only note that initially indulgence was a perfectly reasonable means. You say that you cannot atone for money and you are right, of course, but the dogma of the Catholics said that indulgence gives absolution before God of temporary punishment for sins that have already been blamed.
              If it's completely primitive - a parishioner comes to the priest and repents of sin - they say, he was staring at his neighbor's wife with shameful thoughts. I repent! The priest forgave this sin, because the parishioner did not go further with his thoughts, and did not tackle his neighbor's wife, but imposed a penance for the sin - to read Our Father 150 times for example. So indulgence allowed, instead of reading "Our Father", to fulfill the requirements of penance by paying a fine.
              At the same time, a Christian could not receive indulgence without sincere repentance, persisting in sin, That is, if you, for example, are an adulterer, and sincerely repented, confirming this by fasting, pilgrimage, or something else and "tied up" - then yes, indulgence will replace penance in whole or in part, but the option "took a walk, bought an indulgence, and again went to the left" does not work in principle.
              However, the mechanism of indulgence itself, of course, allowed the possibility of abuse, which is why in the Renaissance, the view was widespread that indulgence is a payment for sins. But the Catholic Church originally conceived of this at all, and not for this. In the end, when it became clear that the indulgences no longer work at all, as planned, the church abandoned them.
              In general, indulgence should be considered a Catholic error, but it should not be demonized.
              Quote: Phil77
              Inquisition-och., och. many innocent victims

              That's right. But everything is not so simple there. To begin with, the very appearance of the Inquisition is not connected with Catholicism as such, but with the fact that the early Christian church was very unstable and had many conflicting currents within itself. In those days, of course, this could not but lead to armed confrontation, and led to the emergence of the Inquisition as a means of combating dissent, heresy. Actually, for the first time a forceful solution to the heresy problem appeared in the 4 century of our era.
              As for the many victims ... Let's just say that the same witches in the Middle Ages were burned in many ordinary, secular courts, without any inquisitors, and it is still unknown who is larger. For example, Protestants executed witches using only a secular court.
              Quote: Phil77
              crusades, well, that all this mass chained in steel with a cross on its chest rushed to free the tomb of God?

              let's clarify :)))) Initially, the Crusades were a way of consolidating the military forces of Europe against the Seljuk Turks, who destroyed Byzantium and seriously threatened other European countries. By the way, what did they do with the Christians ... let's just say there were many martyrs. In any case, Islam and the Turks should have been rebuffed, and the unification of the Europeans under the idea of ​​a crusade is no worse than any other.
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 24 August 2019 17: 24
                +4
                Excuse me, Andrey, but you didn’t convince! Did you take the money for forgiveness? (Even temporary) Yes. What led to corruption and therefore abandoned this practice. Were there any victims of the Inquisition? Yes. What can I say if 7-year-old girls were judged as witch? Heresy? But this is just dissent. For it to the stake? Cool. Even for those harsh times. Yes, the church passed them under the secular court (* letting go of freedom * - so it was called), but what did it change? Well, the Crusades. Sorry, the attack is the best defense? After all, they moved to Palestine in the 11 century before the destruction of V Antii more daleko.Vprochem have a suggestion! And let's leave the controversy SPECIAL bogoslovam.I anyway for your detailed response * plus * you!
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 24 August 2019 17: 43
                  +5
                  Quote: Phil77
                  Did you take money for forgiveness? (Even if it’s temporary) Yes.

                  Not:))))
                  Quote: Phil77
                  Were there any casualties from the work of the Inquisition? Yes.

                  There were. Well, excuse me, there have always been victims, in all religions - we had a schism in Orthodoxy, the Old Believers. And without the religions of the victims, it was also in bulk. Such is the history of mankind. On the whole and in general, I put Orthodoxy much higher than Catholicism, but ... there are many nuances here.
                  Quote: Phil77
                  Yes. What can I say if 7-year-old girls were judged as witches? Heresy? But this is just dissent. For this to the stake? Cool. Even for those harsh times.

                  Yes how to say :))))) Freedom of speech appeared much later.
                  Quote: Phil77
                  Well, the Crusades. Sorry, the attack is the best defense? After all, they moved to Palestine in the 11 century before the destruction of Byzantium is still far away.

                  Nevertheless, the Arabs / Turks were already in Asia Minor and Spain and tried to move on.
                  Quote: Phil77
                  However, there is a proposal! And let's leave this argument to the theologians. And still, for your detailed answer to you * plus *!

                  And you plus - for an adequate position hi
                  1. Phil77
                    Phil77 24 August 2019 17: 48
                    +5
                    But for this I applaud you! As well as for your ship articles. As they used to say: * Let me admire you?! * good
                2. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 25 August 2019 16: 29
                  +2
                  Quote: Phil77
                  What can I say if 7-year-old girls were judged as witches?

                  Excuse me, who are you talking about?
                  If about Brigitte Horner, then she was just not condemned, considering the girl’s tales about sabbaths and witchcraft fantasies. That given the environment (the height of the Thirty Years War) is simply a miracle.
              2. Phil77
                Phil77 24 August 2019 17: 45
                +3
                And I’ll add, we were carried away with you! Instead of discussing an excellent article by the respected Valery, we will polemicize about the Catholic Church. hi
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 24 August 2019 19: 33
                  +2
                  And Valery giggles aside, for his historical paradigm lies in a different direction.
                  1. Phil77
                    Phil77 24 August 2019 19: 40
                    0
                    You are late Anton! Everything has already been discussed, but Valery promised an article about Pope (papess?) John.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 24 August 2019 19: 44
                      +2
                      Well, to blame, he labored in the field of capitalist labor. Nevertheless, Andrei was too brief in his review, although I support the main points.
                      1. Phil77
                        Phil77 24 August 2019 19: 50
                        +1
                        Brief?!?! Yes, both of us would have been kicked out of the locker room until the end of the game for non-discussion of the article. No. Everything was reasonable.
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 24 August 2019 20: 04
                        0
                        Sergey, I terribly apologize, but if you always look back at the site-based Big Brother, it is better not to write comments at all. By the way, greetings from Vlad, you want to contact him, I am ready to help.
                      3. Phil77
                        Phil77 24 August 2019 20: 11
                        +1
                        Thank you for greetings !!! Bow to him too! How many * soldered * are some of our romance? In general, I'm afraid of Nastasya angry , she gave me the 4th * mustard plaster * slapped for the ellipsis! Well, she thought she was obscene, but it was semantic! Oh! And since I respect the ellipses, you understand. tongue
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 24 August 2019 20: 33
                        +2
                        The site's petent system is undergoing changes, becoming more and more tailored for the "hamster contingent". However, like the entire resource. Vlad fell victim to a banal, stupid, envious squealing (I will figure out the bastard - I will minus him to enuresis), the System reacted to the signal ...
                        You know, once in mid-January I was stuck in a traffic jam on the Liteiny Bridge. In the navigator, among other comments cursing this traffic jam, there was a line from the traffic cop: "You are all slaves!" So here ...
                        And Nastya does not need to be afraid. I talked to her. She just does her job.
                      5. Phil77
                        Phil77 24 August 2019 21: 08
                        +1
                        Ha! And the traffic cop, of course, imagines himself an overseer? But who, in fact? Okay, what about the affairs of our mournful, how much was Vlad awarded * without correspondence *?
                      6. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 24 August 2019 21: 10
                        +1
                        I think a month.
                      7. Phil77
                        Phil77 24 August 2019 21: 12
                        +1
                        Oh, how severe! The verdict is final and not subject to appeal.
                      8. Catfish
                        Catfish 25 August 2019 02: 10
                        +2
                        Anton! Drop it! To breed propaganda here! The people between us all produce the sent labor! And there is nothing like that! This is for you "not as something, but something as! Why? This is very, very much !!!" (C) And you are here no matter how everything. You need to understand the main task, but where? Here it is not a disgrace for you to break and drink vodka in the locker. There must be order !!!
                      9. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 24 August 2019 20: 28
                        +4
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        However, Andrew, was too brief in his review,

                        There is no doubt - but you know very well that for a somewhat complete answer and a whole series of articles, it would not be enough hi
                      10. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 24 August 2019 21: 18
                        +1
                        I think the cycle would be enough to defame the author, as a representative of the Masters of the West. laughing
                    2. VLR
                      24 August 2019 19: 46
                      +3
                      Yes, Sergey, the article is already basically ready, some more details to clarify and add, something insignificant and optional, on the contrary, to reduce, in general, "grinding" and literary processing remained.
                      1. Phil77
                        Phil77 24 August 2019 19: 54
                        +2
                        Here we’re arguing, discussing, discussing! As an announcement: a man, or is it the other way around?! After all, a question of questions !!!! request Who was it? Was?
                      2. VLR
                        24 August 2019 20: 01
                        +3
                        "Man or vice versa" - it is better to wait for the article, I tried to collect arguments both "FOR" and "AGAINST".
                      3. Phil77
                        Phil77 24 August 2019 20: 14
                        +1
                        Intrigue! Okay, turn on the patience mode. yes
                  2. VLR
                    24 August 2019 19: 42
                    +3
                    Yes, Anton, I myself "inadvertently" shared my plans and provoked a "ramification" of the discussion.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 24 August 2019 19: 57
                      +2
                      In my opinion, Valery, this is "the whole tsimes" of any publication - to make a person think!
                2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 24 August 2019 20: 27
                  +3
                  Quote: Phil77
                  But for this I applaud you!

                  Yes it would be for that :)))) I note that it is always pleasant to talk with a person who knows how to conduct a discussion - even if, according to its results, everyone remained "with their own" :)))
                  Quote: Phil77
                  And I’ll add, we were carried away with you! Instead of discussing an excellent article by the respected Valery, we will polemicize about the Catholic Church.

                  No doubt you are right. Of course we’ll leave
              3. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 24 August 2019 19: 50
                +1
                Bravo, Andrey! Well, alas, Andrei, they broke an entire discussion thread. I have something to add on all counts.
              4. Town Hall
                Town Hall 24 August 2019 23: 02
                +1
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                For example, Protestants executed witches using only a secular court

                Do not be surprised .. but the papal Inquisition did not execute anyone either. Secular courts did this.
            3. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 24 August 2019 19: 21
              +2
              "I am here again, I am collected all" (c) However, Andrey has already answered "in the axes."
      2. Phil77
        Phil77 24 August 2019 09: 51
        +3
        But about your future article about * papess John *, she’s John the Eighth (supposedly) because even her (his?) Real name is unknown. Have you really found something? They’ve already intrigued, I'm waiting, waiting, waiting! hi
      3. skinar
        skinar 24 August 2019 10: 09
        +4
        Popes and antipopes, reformers and "reformers", "Constantine's gift" and "letters of God" ... The Roman throne, in general, deserves much wider publicity in the world ... And I would be extremely glad to read about I-II II more , otherwise the official sources of him really make the most holy of modern times, but even his meetings give many reasons to think that it was not at all easy
        1. naidas
          naidas 24 August 2019 18: 21
          +1
          Quote: skinar
          The throne of Rome, on the whole, is much more widely publicized.

          Much wider:
          Jeno Gergei
          History of the papacy
          (Translation from Hungarian O. V. Gromov)
          there is on the Internet: https: //www.e-reading.mobi/bookreader.php/1007049/Gergey_-_Istoriya_papstva.html
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 24 August 2019 20: 33
            +1
            Downloaded, thanks! And to the heap of Norwich, Lozinsky. Thanks again.
  2. bubalik
    bubalik 24 August 2019 09: 31
    +4
    Maybe someday Tortu will be able to boast of something similar.
    ,,, the waters surrounding the island, this is probably a paradise for adventurers and enthusiasts. feel How many stories in our time with the detective component of espionage, betrayal, murder, chase are connected with the search for the looted treasures of pirates and sunken galleons of Spain. wink
    Thanks to the author hi for such a fascinating series of articles "gentlemen of fortune". good
    1. VLR
      24 August 2019 09: 35
      +6
      I have a cycle about filibuster. Not about the Great Armada. The end of the article lists the articles in my series.
      1. bubalik
        bubalik 24 August 2019 09: 40
        +3
        ,,, "Everything is confused in the Oblonskys' house" (c) recourse I got it wrong request
  3. andrey-ivanov
    andrey-ivanov 24 August 2019 16: 02
    +8
    Thanks to the author from the bottom of my heart! I'm waiting for the cycle to continue. I didn't have a chance to visit the Haiti region, but the modern "grimy" successors of Henry Morgan's case from Somalia had to be within line of sight. 40-50 meters. Tanker 117 thousand deadweight, in ballast, wave .. The "grimy" ones could not get on board. We left two ladders on board as a "gift".



  4. Freeman
    Freeman 25 August 2019 04: 08
    +1

    Port Royal ruins, underwater shooting

    In my opinion, the wreckage of some plane was shot here.
    1. VLR
      25 August 2019 10: 27
      +2
      No, these are the ruins of the building, I double-checked
      1. Freeman
        Freeman 25 August 2019 13: 41
        0
        Quote: VlR
        No, these are the ruins of the building, I double-checked

        Well, yes, "search" is exactly what it is.
        The one who originally created the material about the sunken Port Royal accidentally inserted the wrong picture ( or wrongly signed ) - and it has been multiplied by thousands of "copy-paste".

        High resolution picture:
        https://jyrox.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/ciudades-bajo-el-mar-1.jpg

        What is this if not the wreckage of a twin-engine aircraft?
        Although they are, quite possibly, on the site of the sunken city. But they have a very indirect relationship to the "pirate capital".
        Just the signature should be something like - "Modern artifacts at the site of the sunken city."
        Not the Ruins of Port Royal.
        hi
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 25 August 2019 17: 20
      +2
      Do you think that the remnants of the cabin are in the background? If so, then at least two more motors must be added to the two motors you are talking about. Under water, everything is significantly distorted and the real dimensions never correspond to what the human eye sees. And so - yes, there is some kind of thing lying around, which by that time obviously has nothing to do with it.
      I don’t remember from whom, I think I read about a funny "sandwich" found in Mediterranean by J. Blon: a frigate of Napoleonic times was lying on the sunken Roman trireme, and this couple was covered by a German submarine of the VII series. As you can see, not only people joke. hi
      1. Freeman
        Freeman 25 August 2019 17: 49
        0
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Do you think that the remnants of the cabin are in the background? If so, then at least two more motors must be added to the two motors you are talking about. Under water, everything is significantly distorted and the real dimensions never correspond to what the human eye sees. And so - yes, there is some kind of thing lying around, which by that time obviously has nothing to do with it.
        I don’t remember from whom, I think I read about a funny "sandwich" found in Mediterranean by J. Blon: a frigate of Napoleonic times was lying on the sunken Roman trireme, and this couple was covered by a German submarine of the VII series. As you can see, not only people joke. hi


        Why add something that is not there? This is not the "super fortress" of the B-29, but quite a "business jet" or a plane of local flights of piston times (or even later).

        I’m just saying that you should not thoughtlessly use materials from the Internet.
        One involuntary mistake, plus thousands of "rush-copy-paste" - and here you are "an indisputable fact, confirmed by thousands of publications."
        Claims not to the photo, but to the signature under it hi
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 25 August 2019 18: 06
          +1
          No, Alexei, I understand what you mean. Just if you start to thoroughly disassemble such an underwater photo, it can result in a separate article in all respects: shooting, captions, comments, etc. But basically, the article is good and the author did the work, the language is also good and, in short, reading everything was quite interesting. What is there to argue? Just want to ask you, didn’t you have to work under water? For more than ten years I was wound on every vacation to Sevastopol and climbed almost everything there, the naval guys from their WFD, and on their equipment, gave me the opportunity to go around in Akhtiark and, what is most ridiculous, on the basis of the ACC, there was absolutely a field unplowed in the sense of antiquity, and especially the iron of the last Great War.
          Forgive the author. smile When working with such a volume of material, and "there is a hole in the old woman."
          In short - "peace-friendship between peoples!" drinks
          1. Freeman
            Freeman 25 August 2019 18: 34
            0
            Sea Cat (Constantine) Today, 18: 06
            Forgive the author. smile When working with such a volume of material and "there is a hole in the old woman."

            Yes, I, not in a claim to the author, in fact the material. hi
            He just pointed out some "flaws" that are easy to correct ("more carefully" (c) Zhvanetsky).

            And then, because it turns out -


            I would like the articles on "VO" to always be distinguished by the high-quality presentation of the material, almost like in an encyclopedia.
            I think - this will benefit the site and all its readers.
            Shl. Well, and for "peace-friendship between peoples!" - I, "Forever FOR!" drinks
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 25 August 2019 19: 01
              +2
              I agree. hi Well, if about "thoroughness", then the real Gruppenfuehrer Mueller looked completely different, and he was younger in age, and the form in the film was not very good. As my acquaintance, a professional actor, told me: "Mueller's armor did not play, he did it, and did it brilliantly." It's hard to disagree, but it's still far from reality. drinks
  5. Victor Orthodox
    Victor Orthodox 25 August 2019 09: 00
    +2
    Thanks for the interesting article.
    I would like to supplement it with legends about this island. Someone who was there on vacation said.
    Democratic Europeans exterminated the entire local population of the island. Spanish, French colonists and slaves from Africa lived on the island. Haiti was formed as a result of the uprising of slaves on the island, the power of blacks, as elsewhere in the world, unfortunately, led to rampant crime, corruption, and other lawlessness. Admirers of the darkest religions, such as voodoo, arose.
    Holidays in the Dominican Republic are also known for other types of "tourism" For relatively little money you will be transported from the Dominican Republic to Haiti, where they offer completely sadistic entertainment, they say, even hunting for people.
    It is said that God punished the pirate island as Sodom and Gomoru and still punishes.
    For example, if any disasters occur on the island, they certainly happen on the side of Haiti and mysteriously do not affect the Dominican Republic.
    Regarding the popes, too, unfortunately there are many bad facts and stories. The Catholic Church became impoverished after breaking away from Orthodoxy. After that, they practically had no saints, real, not self-proclaimed. Among the Orthodox, you can still find holy elders, who can be many, and who know the future. This is not nonsense, he personally came across such people. He will say this and that, do this and that. Everything came true. Although he did it his own way)). Flew by.
  6. burigaz2010
    burigaz2010 25 August 2019 14: 25
    +1
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Phil77
    Did you take money for forgiveness? (Even if it’s temporary) Yes.

    Not:))))
    Quote: Phil77
    Were there any casualties from the work of the Inquisition? Yes.

    There were. Well, excuse me, there have always been victims, in all religions - we had a schism in Orthodoxy, the Old Believers. And without the religions of the victims, it was also in bulk. Such is the history of mankind. On the whole and in general, I put Orthodoxy much higher than Catholicism, but ... there are many nuances here.
    Quote: Phil77
    Yes. What can I say if 7-year-old girls were judged as witches? Heresy? But this is just dissent. For this to the stake? Cool. Even for those harsh times.

    Yes how to say :))))) Freedom of speech appeared much later.
    Quote: Phil77
    Well, the Crusades. Sorry, the attack is the best defense? After all, they moved to Palestine in the 11 century before the destruction of Byzantium is still far away.

    Nevertheless, the Arabs / Turks were already in Asia Minor and Spain and tried to move on.
    Quote: Phil77
    However, there is a proposal! And let's leave this argument to the theologians. And still, for your detailed answer to you * plus *!

    And you plus - for an adequate position hi

    Andrey, good afternoon! In fact, the Crusades originally existed for the disposal of the so-called poor knights. That is, the second and third sons of the nobles, the rule of Major a. They get only armor and horse. Well, where do they go, on the big road? Here is the church and found a way to let off steam. And the Inquisition was originally created to fight the Maroons, baptized by Jews, and then it started!
  7. Denis Fomin
    Denis Fomin 27 September 2019 13: 20
    0
    The ships in both photos are identical))) Both are 2Flying Dutchmen))