Military Review

What is good for a Russian is death for a German

78
In modern wars and local military conflicts, a significant role is assigned to special reconnaissance and sabotage operations conducted on the territory of the enemy. For such operations in the armies of the developed countries of the world there are special purpose units. They are intended for covert penetration and execution of combat missions both in the frontline zone of the enemy and in his deep rear; conducting reconnaissance for a long time and, if necessary, destroying important enemy military installations, as well as performing other specific tasks. The main tasks of the special forces are to conduct reconnaissance and sabotage operations against important state and military targets of the enemy with the aim of obtaining the necessary information, causing him military, economic and moral damage, disorganization of command and control, disruption of rear operations and a number of other tasks.


What is good for a Russian is death for a German

BCC sniper rifle (top) and a special machine gun AU (bottom)

To equip the special-purpose units formed in the Soviet Union by the 1970s-1980s - several brigades and separate battalions of special purpose, as well as special units of the KGB and the Ministry of Internal Affairs; reconnaissance units of motorized rifle, tank, airborne divisions and formations of the marines of the Soviet Army and the Naval fleet effective weapons of covert use of various types and purposes were required, including small-sized and silent small arms.
One of such means for the national special forces was the unified system of silent small arms developed at TsNIITOCHMASH in the 1980s. It consisted of a special sniper complex, consisting of an 9-mm rifle sniper special ARIA, an 9-mm automatic rifle of a special speaker and special 9-mm cartridges.
This complex emerged as a result of the intensification of the confrontation between the Soviet Union and the West in the 1960's - 1970's. The expansion at this time of the geography of undeclared wars and local military conflicts that were fought on almost all continents required for successful combat with our potential adversaries more and more new types of special weapons, including for defeating enemy forces at short distances, equipped with personal protection.

A significant disadvantage of domestic samples of silent small weapons the first generation, by which time Soviet special forces were in service, were relatively low compared to general purpose weapons, combat and service-operational characteristics — accurate firing range, slaughter and penetrative action of the bullet, mass-dimensional characteristics. As a result, the existing models of silent weapons could not fully replace the standard all-arms and were, in essence, only an addition to the standard weapons of special forces. These samples of automatic small arms were equipped with special muzzle devices for silently flameless firing, the so-called "silencers", and their cartridges were refined in the direction of increasing the mass of the bullet and reducing its initial speed to subsonic. However, since the most important condition for the performance of combat missions by special forces units on the enemy’s territory was the secrecy of actions, the use of weapons with small unmasking factors of a shot — sound, flame and smoke, i.e., “silent” weapons — acquired particular importance in carrying out such operations. In addition, when by the end of the 1970's, the combat missions of the special forces had significantly changed, the insufficient effectiveness of individual samples of special (silent) weapons and their ammunition was revealed.

At that time, in accordance with the state program for the development of weapons and military equipment, the beginning of research and development (R & D) to develop a concept and create a unified system of silent small arms instead of certain types of special weapons, which then were in service Special Forces of the Soviet Army and the KGB.

These works were entrusted to the Central Scientific Research Institute of Precision Engineering (TsNIITOCHMASH) in Klimovsk, with the leading role of the Research Institute of the KGB of the USSR together with the General Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff of the USSR Armed Forces. The Soviet gunsmiths approached the solution of the task in a comprehensive manner. The creation of a unified system of silent small arms was planned to be carried out through the development of new designs; reducing the range of special weapons and ammunition, working out the necessary types of such weapons, designed for standardized ammunition.
After analyzing typical tactical tasks solved by special forces units and carrying out a number of diverse research work, it was decided to create for all special forces several silent rifle complexes, including a sniper one, which would include three main components: - ammunition - sight.

9-mm SCREW SNIPPING SPECIAL WSS "SCREW"

In 1983, the requirements for a new special sniper complex (received the “Vintorez” code) were developed. This weapon was supposed to ensure the covert defeat of enemy personnel at ranges up to 400 m, including in the means of individual defense. Such a task could be solved only with the use of a new cartridge with a heavy bullet, which would have a sufficiently destructive effect and high accuracy of combat throughout the entire target range to 400. Sniper firing at such a range required the creation of new optical (day) and electron-optical ) sights.


Incomplete disassembly of the BCC sniper rifle

Since all the necessary equipment for performing combat missions in the enemy's rear had to be carried by the special forces, the new weapons were subject to very strict requirements for weight and dimensions. In addition, for a number of special operations, such a rifle had to be disassembled into small-sized basic units, which allowed it to be covertly transferred and quickly transferred to a combat position.
Based on the requirements, research on the topic “Vintorez” was carried out by Klimovsky gunsmiths in the following directions:
- practicing the technical ability to ensure effective firing of a silent sniper rifle (i.e. firing at a range of 400 m, in which the probability of hitting the target must be at least 0,8);
- the choice of the principle of silencing the sound of a shot and reducing its flame;
- the development of the constructive scheme of the sniper cartridge with a subsonic speed of the bullet, which provides the specified accuracy, amazing effect and reliable operation of the automatics when firing;
- design of the cartridge and the justification of its main design parameters;
- the development of a constructive scheme of automatic weapons, ensuring the specified accuracy of fire; the sound level of the shot; reliable operation of automation; overall dimensions;
- designing a sniper rifle;
- development of new optical sights.

Designing a special sniper complex at TsNIITOCHMASH began with the creation of a new assault rifle cartridge, designed to defeat enemy personnel in specific conditions.
The main problem that the Klimovsk designers had to solve was to solve the issue of silencing a sound and a shot.

The intensity of the sound of a shot depends on the muzzle pressure of the powder gases. In addition, the bullet itself, if it has a supersonic initial velocity (more than 330 m / s), also generates a shock (ballistic) wave. All this unmasks the firing position of the shooter. To eliminate sound from a ballistic wave, a weapon with a silencer must have a subsonic bullet velocity. However, the slower the speed of the bullet, the less its damaging effect and worse the flatness of the trajectory, which significantly reduces the effective range. Thus, in the special rifle armament of concealed use, two incompatible properties had to be combined — the necessary effective range of fire and the sufficient striking effect of the bullet at its relatively low initial velocity. Moreover, the jamming of the shot in such a sniper complex could only be achieved with the use of silencers and subsonic initial speed.

The result of this work was a new 7,62-mm experienced cartridge, consisting of a 7,62 x54-mm sniper rifle cartridge 7 H1 bullet and 7,62 x25-mm TT pistol cartridge bullet. This cartridge satisfied the requirements of the tactical and technical assignment (TTZ) for the “Vintorez” in terms of accuracy, but its bullet did not provide the necessary lethal effect. In addition, when developing a new sniper cartridge, it was taken into account that in the long term, increased demands may be placed on the bullet penetration to a silent automatic rifle complex. In the course of the work, the issue of unification of a sniper rifle and an assault rifle for used ammunition was also considered.

Further work on promising ammunition was aimed at creating a fundamentally new design of the cartridge. A group of specialists from TsNIITOCHMASH under the leadership of Vladimir Fedorovich Krasnikov developed another 5,45-mm sniper cartridge with subsonic (39 m / s) bullet speed, which received the index "РГ7,62", on the basis of the 300 liner x037-mm automaton cartridge. His bullet was structurally made according to the scheme of a bullet rifle sniper cartridge 7 H1. Its external form was determined taking into account the requirements of external ballistics for bullets with subsonic speed. The new sniper cartridge had a length of 46 mm, a total mass of 16 g, a mass of bullet 10,6 g and had excellent accuracy. So, at a range of 100 m for this cartridge R50 was 4 cm, and on 400 m - 16,5 see. However, the new cartridge RGO37 did not allow to confidently hit the enemy's manpower in an anti-fragmentation armor at a range of direct shot 400 m.

Under the 7,62-mm cartridge RGO37 was designed noiseless sniper rifle, which received the index "РГ036". The leading designer of the rifle was Peter Ivanovich Serdyukov.

The chosen scheme of operation of the automatics with a gas engine and rigid locking of the bore when turning the bolt ensured reliable operation of the rifle in various operating conditions. The combined silencer, consisting of a chamber muzzle silencer with obliquely spaced separator walls and an expansion chamber for partial discharge of powder gases from the barrel, reduced the sound level of the shot to a value similar to the 9-mm PB pistol.

But despite the fact that the 7,62-mm sniper complex as part of the РГ036 rifle and the РГ037 cartridge passed preliminary tests, further work with it was stopped, because by the end of 1985, the USSR Ministry of Defense Industry approves new requirements for a special machine complex - another element of the system silent weapons. On the basis of the TTZ, it was necessary to create a weapon that would confidently hit group targets (manpower), protected by 6 B2 type bulletproof vests (III class of defense) at a distance of up to 400 m. The machine also had high requirements for noiseless firing, including automatic by fire. It was assumed that, for ease of carrying, he would receive a folding butt, moreover, it was possible to be equipped with various optical sights. Therefore, it was unambiguously required to unify the sniper and assault rifle complexes of the used ammunition.


20-charging stores to a special automatic speaker with 10-charging holders with xNUMX x9-mm special cartridges (from left to right): 39 H7; JV 12; JV Xnumx

Based on the new tasks, the designers were able to correctly assess that the bullet 7,62-mm cartridge РГ037 could not ensure the defeat of manpower, protected by promising personal protective equipment. In accordance with this, the requirements for the silent sniper complex were revised.

Therefore, the designers of TsNIITOCHMASH N. V. Zabelin and L. S. Dvoryaninova had to begin work on the creation of a new 7,62 x X1943-mm special sniper cartridge SP from the 9 case of a new 39 x X5-mm automatic cartridge cartridge. 7 (index 8 Н16,2) with a heavy bullet with a mass of 290 g (with subsonic initial velocity - 7,62 m / s). This bullet was more than twice as heavy as the 39 x1943-mm cartridge bullet of the 5,45 sample of the year and almost five times as heavy as the 39 xXNUMX-mm bullet of the automatic cartridge.

Bullet cartridge sp. 5 had a composite core: a steel head (with a truncated tip with a diameter of 0,5 mm) and a lead core rolled into a bimetallic shell. A steel core to enhance the bullet penetration was placed in its nose section. The lead core not only gave the bullet the necessary mass, but also ensured its penetration into the grooves of the bore. The peaked ogival shape of the bullet provided her with good ballistic properties when flying at a subsonic speed. Despite the subsonic initial velocity, a bullet with such a mass possessed considerable kinetic energy — on departure it was about 60 kgm, and at a distance of 450 m - 45 kgm. This was quite enough for reliable destruction of manpower in light personal protective equipment. Tests have shown that at a distance of 400 m bullet cartridge SP. 5 has enough energy to break through the 2-mm steel sheet while maintaining the required killing effect. The mass of the cartridge SP. 5 – 32,2 g, cartridge length - 56 mm, cartridge bullet length - 36 mm.
Distinctive coloration bullet cartridges sp. 5 do not have. Only on the carton cartons on the 10 cartridges the inscription "Sniper" was applied.

Already in 1987, a new sample of special sniper weapons, created on the basis of РГ036, and re-squeezed under the 9-mm cartridge SP. 5 (known under the code name "Vintorez"), adopt for service the special purpose units of the KGB of the USSR and reconnaissance and sabotage units of the Soviet Armed Forces under the designation "special sniper rifle" (BCC) 6 ПХNUMX index.

The new weapon, which is a group means of covert attack and defense, was designed to hit targets with sniper fire in conditions requiring silent flameless firing at the enemy’s open manpower (destruction of the enemy’s command personnel; its reconnaissance groups; observers and sentries), as well as for withdrawal from building surveillance devices, elements of military equipment and destruction of unarmored equipment at distances up to 400 m.

BCC rifle consisted of: a barrel with a receiver; silencer with sights; butt; gas piston bolt; shutter; return mechanism; impact mechanism; trigger mechanism; handguards; gas tube; covers the receiver and the store.

The automatic equipment of the BCC sniper rifle worked on the principle of removal of powder gases from the barrel. Locking was carried out when turning the bolt around its axis on the 6 lugs. The fuse box, displayed on the right side of the receiver at the same time, closed the slot for the reloading handle, preventing dust and dirt from getting inside. A translator of the type of fire is mounted inside the trigger guard, behind the trigger. When it is horizontally moved to the right, a single fire is fired, and when it is moved to the left - automatic shooting. The reloading handle is located on the right side of the receiver. Sights consisted of an open sector sight mounted on the body of the muffler and designed for a firing range of up to 420 m, and a front sight in a headset. Food was carried out from a plastic box magazine with a double row arrangement of 10 cartridges. Butt wooden frame type with a rubber nape.

The BCC rifle trigger mechanism ensured high accuracy of firing with single shots. The percussion mechanism with a separate mainspring allowed both single and automatic fire.
A single fire is essential for the BCC sniper rifle; It is characterized by high accuracy. When shooting single shots from a prone position from a stop at a distance of 100 and 5 series of shots R 50, 4 cm, and 400 m - R50 – 16,5. At the same time, continuous fire bursts can be used in case of a sudden meeting with an opponent on short distances, or when there is a need to hit the target, not clearly observed. Given that the BCC magazine’s magazine capacity is just 10 ammunition, therefore, automatic fire can usually be fired in short bursts at the 2 – 4 shot, and in exceptional cases, with one continuous burst until the magazine is depleted.

Reducing the sound of a shot (up to 130 decibels at a distance of 3 meters from the muzzle - corresponds to the sound level when fired from a small-caliber rifle) was achieved along with a special "integrated type" silencer with a powder flow separator SP. 5 with optimal ballistic performance. The “integrated” silencer has significantly reduced the overall length of the weapon.


BCC sniper rifle controls

Along with this, the capabilities of the BCC rifle significantly expanded the whole range of sights, both optical and night vision. At the customer's request, sniper rifles were completed with various sights: for the KGB, the 1 П43 optical daylight (which allows accurate target 400 m shooting in the daytime) and the 1 PN75 nightly illumination 1, in the dark day, calculated on the way to the figure, but it’s not enough, it’s at the and for GRU special forces, respectively - daily PSO-300 – 1 and 1 x4 software and night 34 PN1 (NSPU-51). Specially commissioned by state security agencies to ensure the hidden carrying rifle can be disassembled into three nodes (barrel with a silencer, receiver with a trigger mechanism and butt) and together with the sight and the shops are packed in a diplomat suitcase with dimensions 3 x X450 x X370 mm, and the time required to transfer weapons from the transport position to the combat position is no more than one minute.

The BCC rifle kit includes a sight carrying bag, four stores, a spare parts kit, and a rifle carrying bag.

After the appearance of the cartridge SP. 6 its use in the BCC sniper rifle made it possible to defeat enemy personnel even at the ultimate range of aimed fire, and at 100 m distance - in body armor to class II protection inclusive (according to modern classification), which put it on a par with the most formidable types of infantry small arms.


BCC sniper rifle with a tactical flashlight (top) and a special AC submachine gun (bottom) (right view)

In 2000, the teachers of the Combined Arms Military Academy. Frunze and its subsidiary, “Shot” courses, Colonels V. V. Korablin and A. A. Lovi published in the brochure “Modern Rifle Armament of Russia” a review of the combat use of these weapons, which allows them to more fully appreciate the high qualities of the BCC sniper rifle: companies of one of the regiments operating in the 1995 year in the mountainous district of Yarysh-Mordy, south of Grozny, now Major V.A. Lukashov, from personal experience, considers VSS to be a good addition to the standard weapons of motorized rifle subunits in those conditions. His company acted in isolation from the main forces of the unit and conducted reconnaissance of the enemy with its own forces and means. The company was supplied with several sets of BCC rifles. The commander of the group allocated for reconnaissance - usually the company commander himself or one of the platoon commanders - armed himself, in addition to the standard machine gun, with a BCC rifle and carried it behind his back on a belt. When in the course of reconnaissance it was necessary to hit a separate target at a distance of up to 400 m, a silent shot from the BCC did not allow the enemy to detect the group. These weapons were successfully used in other cases requiring silent and flameless shooting. ”

9-mm AUTOMATIC SPECIAL AU "VAL"

The BCC sniper rifle turned out to be such a successful model of special small arms that P. I. Serdyukov at the same time, on the basis of it, is developing another set of silent weapons on the “Val” theme. The new complex included: a special machine gun AU, which is a modernized version of the "Vintorez" and a special cartridge SP. 6 with a bullet enhanced penetrability.


Special automatic speaker with folded butt (left view)

In TsNIITOCHMASH, the designer Yu. Z. Frolov and the technologist E. S. Kornilova developed a fundamentally new special cartridge for the automaton complex “Val”. 6 (index 7 Н9) with an armor-piercing bullet (with a bare core). This bullet had a higher punching effect than the bullet cartridge SP. 5. Designed to defeat manpower protected by splinter vest up to class III protection inclusive (according to modern classification), as well as unarmored vehicles at a distance of 400 m, it provided 100-percent penetration of 6-mm sheet of special steel at the range of 100 m, and at distances up to 400 m - 2-mm steel sheet (steel army helmet (helmet) or steel sheet with a thickness of 1,6 mm and 25-mm pine board, while maintaining sufficient slaughter supergrade action, which is equivalent to the penetration effect of AME ikanskoy 5,56-mm automatic rifle M16 A1, 7,62-mm AKM rifle and 5,45-mm AK 74.

Ballistic characteristics of cartridges of the joint venture. 5 and SP. 6 are close to each other, so both cartridges can be used in weapons with the same scope. Accuracy of bullets of the cartridge SP. 5 higher than that of bullets of the cartridge SP. 6.
The device of bullets, their penetrating action and ballistics determined the purpose of these cartridges: for the sniper shooting at openly located unprotected manpower, as a rule, SP cartridges are used. 5, and for defeat purposes in personal protective equipment located in vehicles or behind lightweight shelters, - cartridges of the joint venture. 6.

Bullet cartridge sp. 6 consisted of a steel core, a lead shirt and a bimetallic sheath. Due to its design, the bullet cartridge SP. 6 had a higher punching effect than the bullet of the SP cartridge. 5. Heavy bullet sp. 6 had a bimetal casing with a rear cone and a pointed steel heat-strengthened core (diameter 6,5 mm) protruding on the 7,5 mm in a lead jacket. The steel core of this bullet was significantly longer than that of the SP cartridge bullet. 5. The length of the leading part of the bullet joint venture. 6 was reduced to a 10 mm ledge, which forms a cylindrical centering section (diameter 9 mm and length 6 mm), so the nose of the bullet protruded from the shell. The core had an ogival head and a back cone. Bullet weight - 15,6 g. Bullet cartridge SP. 6 had weight - 15,6 g, core weight - 10,4 g, with a cartridge weight - 32,0 g. Cartridge length - 56 mm, bullet length 41 mm. Top bullet cartridge SP. 6 was painted black. On the corked cardboard boxes for these cartridges a distinctive black strip was applied. Later, after the appearance of 9-mm automaton cartridges with an 7 H12 armor-piercing bullet, the tip of the bullet of the cartridge SP. 6 began to turn blue.

New cartridge sp. 6 received the most accolades from experts. The developers of this patron wrote: “The 9-mm cartridge, which has a unique penetrating and damaging effect, will reach your enemy wherever your eyesight reaches it, simultaneously punching any body armor of those that a real person can wear without assistance. And a not too long lineup can do enough damage to damage a truck, launcher, or radar. ”


Incomplete disassembly of a special automaton speaker

The Val automatic machine (6 P30 index) is a personal weapon of covert attack and defense and is intended for hitting targets in conditions that require silently flameless firing at the protected enemy personnel, as well as unarmored or lightly armored combat vehicles.

Automatic AU consisted of: a barrel with a receiver; pistol grip and butt; silencer with sights; gas piston bolt; shutter; return mechanism; impact mechanism; trigger mechanism; handguards; gas tube; covers the receiver and the store.

The automatic equipment of the AS “Val” automated system worked on the principle of removal of powder gases from the barrel. Locking was also done by turning the bolt on the 6 lugs. The firing-type trigger mechanism was designed for single and automatic fire. A translator of the type of fire mounted in the back of the trigger guard. The fuse box, preventing a shot when the trigger is accidentally pressed and the barrel is unlocked, is displayed on the right side of the receiver above the pistol grip of the fire control. The reloading handle is located on the right side of the receiver. The sighting device consists of an open sight, designed for a firing range of up to 420 m and a fly in the earphone. Meals are supplied from plastic box magazines with a double row arrangement, the capacity of 20 cartridges. To speed up the equipment store in the machine are equipped with clips with a capacity of 10 cartridges. Unlike AK 74, the adapter for attaching the clip to the magazine was assembled with the clip. To reduce the sound level, a special “integrated type” silent-flameless device was used.

The design of the AU machine gun on 70% was unified with the BCC sniper rifle, including the types of sights used. However, the machine, unlike the rifle, received a new 20-charging magazine (completely interchangeable with the BCC 10-charging magazine) and a metal frame butt, folding on the left side of the receiver, which made it much more compact and more maneuverable. Automatic AU is convenient for conducting combat operations in limited quantities: in buildings, underground passages, trenches, etc .; when moving in thickets, bush, landing and disembarkation in vehicles; when landing. From the AU can be aimed fire with a folded butt. Like a rifle, the machine is equipped with day and night sights.


Special automaton loudspeaker with a telescope PSO-1 – 1

Cartridges for the BCC rifle and the AU machine gun are also interchangeable. Compared to the “Vintorez” rifle, the “Val” machine gun is more suited to automatic fire at targets protected by body armor at ranges up to 200 m - the SP cartridge. 6 short bursts for 2 – 4 shots; on unprotected targets - patron SP. 5, in tense moments of combat at short distances - in long bursts of 6 – 8 shots, and, if necessary, with continuous fire until the cartridges are spent in the store. At single targets more effective and economical shooting single fire. In all cases, the sound of the shot and the flame are significantly reduced by the silencer, making it difficult for the enemy to determine the position of the shooter. In terms of the reliability of the automation, including in difficult conditions, it is not inferior to the legendary Kalashnikov submachine gun, but weighs a whole kilogram less, which is extremely important in combat.
A case for carrying the machine; bag for carrying the sight and vest for placing and carrying six stores; two flares or one flare and knife; three hand grenades; PSS pistol and spare shop to it.
The production of the BCC sniper rifle and the special AU machine gun was mastered by the Tula Arms Plant.


Special automaton loudspeaker with night sight 1 ПН93 – 1 (right view)

Special-purpose weapons - the BCC sniper rifles and special automatic rifles of the AU, with dignity having gone through all the wars and military conflicts of the last thirty years, deservedly enjoy prestige not only in the elite units of special forces, but also in the Russian Armed Forces. Currently, BCC rifles are used as additional and very effective weapons in reconnaissance units of parachute and motorized rifle units.


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  1. avt
    avt 28 September 2013 10: 15 New
    35
    All is well, I just didn’t understand the title of the article and the video to the place. good The Germans then? Like shoot only those who do not know the Russian language? laughing Well, among Russian speakers, the corresponding goals are quite enough.
    1. hiocraib
      hiocraib 28 September 2013 12: 49 New
      +6
      Germans have MP5SD with a silencer in service since 1974.
      with appropriate ammunition.

      but how does the afftor of "having no world analogues" know about this ... the main thing is to sketch it out, right?
      1. OffenroR
        OffenroR 28 September 2013 14: 49 New
        +1
        Well, yes ..... Su-47 is also the "first in the world" aircraft according to the CBS scheme .... it was written on this site .... we just forgot about Ju.287 .... which was created 69 years ago .
        1. OffenroR
          OffenroR 29 September 2013 00: 15 New
          +1
          The people ... why are you minus me? Am I not right? I ask you to leave a comment with a minus and explain what you put it on ..
        2. Fedya
          Fedya 3 October 2013 18: 18 New
          0
          And who forgot? Show with your finger! Almost all articles have a link to the German apparatus. In addition, the creators of the Golden Eagle said that both were created for research.
      2. vanaheym
        vanaheym 30 September 2013 04: 06 New
        +2
        The MP5SD does not come with the appropriate ammunition. Thanks to the ported barrel, it uses standard 9x19mm ammunition, which slows down to subsonic speed.
      3. viktorR
        viktorR 30 September 2013 19: 40 New
        0
        It’s you a campaign of grams) compared 9x19 parabelum and sp-5 / sp-6. Does the MP5SD have the same range and the same generating ability as the BCC or AC?
        True, you would have to learn the materiel, otherwise you are comparing a submachine gun with a rifle and an assault rifle.
    2. OffenroR
      OffenroR 28 September 2013 14: 47 New
      +7
      Quote: avt
      All is well, I just didn’t understand the title of the article and the video to the place. good The Germans then? Like shoot only those who do not know the Russian language? laughing Well, among Russian speakers, the corresponding goals are quite enough.

      Well, here I come from the same article title does not match the content ...
      People .. does anyone know where this expression came from?
      I heard this: .... a table was set with traditional Russian phenomena. They were served sauces .. horseradish and homemade mustard. Our hero put bread on mustard with a spoon .. with a slide .. bit him and said umm!
      But the German knight tasted ... and there wasn’t enough breath .. he died dead .. That the Russian is good, the German is death! "....
      1. il grand casino
        il grand casino 28 September 2013 14: 49 New
        +6
        Quote: OffenroR
        Quote: avt
        All is well, I just didn’t understand the title of the article and the video to the place. good The Germans then? Like shoot only those who do not know the Russian language? laughing Well, among Russian speakers, the corresponding goals are quite enough.

        Well, here I come from the same article title does not match the content ...
        People .. does anyone know where this expression came from?
        I heard this: .... a table was set with traditional Russian phenomena. They were served sauces .. horseradish and homemade mustard. Our hero put bread on mustard with a spoon .. with a slide .. bit him and said umm!
        But the German knight tasted ... and there wasn’t enough breath .. he died dead .. That the Russian is good, the German is death! "....

        It's funny))) That's just really vigorous horseradish and mustard, I just tried in Germany ... I thought my eyes would pop out))) After that, half a liter of beer failed nowhere))
        1. poquello
          poquello 29 September 2013 00: 00 New
          +3
          Quote: il grand casino

          It's funny))) That's just really vigorous horseradish and mustard, I just tried in Germany ... I thought my eyes would pop out))) After that, half a liter of beer failed nowhere))

          Hm. I have half a liter and so nowhere.
          1. il grand casino
            il grand casino 29 September 2013 10: 41 New
            +2
            Quote: poquello
            Quote: il grand casino

            It's funny))) That's just really vigorous horseradish and mustard, I just tried in Germany ... I thought my eyes would pop out))) After that, half a liter of beer failed nowhere))

            Hm. I have half a liter and so nowhere.

            Do not boast ... not everyone drinks a lot))) I personally rarely, so for me if half a liter of good beer is nowhere, then it’s a waste of money))))
            1. poquello
              poquello 29 September 2013 21: 34 New
              +2
              Quote: il grand casino
              Quote: poquello
              Quote: il grand casino

              It's funny))) That's just really vigorous horseradish and mustard, I just tried in Germany ... I thought my eyes would pop out))) After that, half a liter of beer failed nowhere))

              Hm. I have half a liter and so nowhere.

              Do not boast ... not everyone drinks a lot))) I personally rarely, so for me if half a liter of good beer is nowhere, then it’s a waste of money))))

              I also rarely, but a lot.
  2. Sergey Medvedev
    Sergey Medvedev 28 September 2013 10: 45 New
    +5
    Good weapon. Held in hands. Visiting Lukashov in particular. They were neighbors.
  3. Joker
    Joker 28 September 2013 11: 48 New
    +3
    This weapon really has no analogues, even Americans buy it from us for spetsury.
    1. Witold
      Witold 28 September 2013 12: 32 New
      +1
      And you can link where it says that the Americans chop it up for their special forces. Effective range of 300 meters. There are special forces from 10 countries, show at least one screw cutter.
      1. hiocraib
        hiocraib 28 September 2013 12: 50 New
        -6
        Why do they need Vintorez if there is a good old MP5DS with all possible goodies !?
        1. bazilio
          bazilio 28 September 2013 15: 41 New
          18
          Quote: hiocraib
          Why do they need Vintorez if there is a good old MP5DS with all possible goodies !?


          MP-5SD uses 9 mm. Parabellum.
          The main difference between BCC and MP-5 SD is determined primarily by ammunition.
          9 mm. A pair of JHP Subsonic production Remington has the following indicators, the mass of the bullet is 9,5 g, beginning. speed - 302 m / s, beginning muzzle energy -435 j
          SP5 cartridge - bullet weight 16,8 g, initial speed - 280m / s, initial energy 659J.
          In fairness, it is worth noting that there is an MP-5SD option for 40 Smith Wesson and 10 Auto. But even in the case of using a 10 mm cartridge, Auto numbers look like the JHP bullet weighs 11,66 g, the start speed is 290, the start energy is 460.
          It should be noted that for the most part the ammunition for the MP-5SD is equipped with JHP bullets.
          Thus, the SP-5 / SP-6 cartridge has a greater mass and energy than 9 mm Steam and 10 mm Auto. In addition, the armor-piercing performance of SP-6 (with a steel core) is a priori higher than that of expansive bullets.
          The range of fire from the VSS, according to the developers, is up to 400 m. The MP-5 has an aiming range of 200 m (with a conventional rather than a subsonic cartridge). So comparing MP-5 SD and BCC is not entirely correct
          1. hiocraib
            hiocraib 28 September 2013 15: 50 New
            -8
            never heard the answer to the question.

            I don’t see the point of shooting at targets at a distance of 200+ meters with a subsonic cartridge. on a moving target, so generally you’ll get to hell at such speeds.

            plus the NATO in the niche of "silent" at distances of 200+ - DRM with a silencer.
            1. bootlegger
              bootlegger 28 September 2013 17: 49 New
              +7
              What matters is not the speed of the bullet from the barrel, but the final speed of approach to the target. For a cartridge with a bullet weighing a maximum of 9,5 grams, it will be any less than that of a 16,8 gram bullet. Since light bullets lose speed and energy at a distance faster than heavy. Yes, and the pointed form, Vintorez bullets, also contributes to this.
          2. vanaheym
            vanaheym 30 September 2013 04: 32 New
            +1
            Quote: bazilio
            The main difference between BCC and MP-5 SD is determined primarily by ammunition.
            9 mm. A pair of JHP Subsonic production Remington has the following indicators, the mass of the bullet is 9,5 g, beginning. speed - 302 m / s, beginning muzzle energy -435 j
            SP5 cartridge - bullet weight 16,8 g, initial speed - 280m / s, initial energy 659J.

            Well, it’s incorrect to compare the machine gun and the machine gun. The Americans already have a lot of rounds that are at least as good as 9x39:
            .300 AAC BLACKOUT
            Bullet weight 240gr (15.5 g), initial speed - 304m / s, initial energy - 722J
            .338 SPECTRE
            Bullet weight - 300gr (19.5gr), initial speed - 316m / s, early energy - 976J
            .458 SOCOM
            Bullet weight - 600Gr (39gr), initial speed - 304.8 m / s, initial energy - 1811J

            Yes, and semiautomatic devices with integrated silencers and ported trunks, they are quite able to do.
            1. bazilio
              bazilio 30 September 2013 10: 37 New
              0
              It is necessary to compare Vintorez with such a barrel, but not with PP
        2. bootlegger
          bootlegger 28 September 2013 15: 46 New
          11
          What do you mean Vintorez with a 9 × 39 mm cartridge and MP5DS, which has 9 × 19 mm flaky pistol cartridges?
          1. hiocraib
            hiocraib 28 September 2013 15: 53 New
            -14
            Quote: bootlegger
            What are you equal Vintorez

            why screw cutter equal? all who "equal" run with MP5.


            and "who has no world analogues" who bought for their hard-earned money, can you tell?
      2. ksan
        ksan 29 September 2013 16: 07 New
        +1
        Vitold IL Yesterday, 12:32 ↑

        And you can link where it says that the Americans chop it up for their special forces. Effective range of 300 meters. There are special forces from 10 countries, show at least one screw cutter.
        There is no doubt that the weapon is excellent. And the Americans certainly buy, I think, in order to be able to use the weapons of the "probable enemy" as well as our "specialists" should be able to use what is "found" on enemy territory.
    2. Pimply
      Pimply 28 September 2013 15: 36 New
      +2
      Oleg, I have not heard of such cases, there were no rumors about them either.
  4. Sirocco
    Sirocco 28 September 2013 11: 53 New
    +7
    Article plus, you can say chewed, and put it in your mouth. I used this BCC unit, the impressions are positive, I would like to read, or hear the feedback from our Br fighters. Sp.naza. Maybe one of them used foreign samples of such weapons, I would like to hear their opinion. That would be. yes hunting, no noise, no dust laughing
    1. Witold
      Witold 28 September 2013 12: 35 New
      -1
      Here is one of them
    2. PSih2097
      PSih2097 28 September 2013 12: 50 New
      +1
      Quote: Sirocco
      foreign samples of such weapons,

      If according to BCC / AC / CP3, then almost any modular automatic rifle with a silencer, but using a glushak reduces the range to 600 meters (400 - 450 meters) ...
      and in caliber, it’s closest to 9x39 .458 SOCOM ...
      1. hiocraib
        hiocraib 28 September 2013 13: 06 New
        0
        MP5SD - from 1974 ...
        [img] http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=88437&d=12


        10056031 [/ img]

      2. vanaheym
        vanaheym 30 September 2013 04: 49 New
        +2
        Quote: PSih2097
        and in caliber, it’s closest to 9x39 .458 SOCOM ...

        In caliber, it’s closer to 9x39 not .458SOCOM, but .338Spectre (8.59x32mm)
  5. Slevinst
    Slevinst 28 September 2013 12: 05 New
    +5
    The screw cutter from all the small arms of the world I like the most
    1. PSih2097
      PSih2097 28 September 2013 12: 37 New
      +5
      Quote: Slevinst
      The screw cutter from all the small arms of the world I like the most

      If only with a 20 cartridge magazine from the shaft and with CP3M as an additional weapon, a partner with a normal caliber AK, AN, AEK is required (9x39 is effective at a distance of up to 250 meters, at a greater distance - it is better to use a standardized fire with Kalash). IMHO
  6. _Siberian_
    _Siberian_ 28 September 2013 12: 34 New
    +9
    We know how to make weapons, but with the title of the article frank "Pont"
  7. vietnam7
    vietnam7 28 September 2013 15: 22 New
    +6
    mp5SD submachine gun and it is necessary to compare it with APB, the aiming range of the screw cutter is 400 meters, shot at this range. 8mm ceramic plate from the bronil of the sample. At 98m-99m we also collected shells from it for firing for reporting, although when American seals and racers came to the asbestos brigade for competitions, in theory they knew it, they held it in our hands for the first time. The most important plus of the screw cutter is the weight, although they were no longer taking them to Dagestan, they received SVDs, in the mountains they needed more SVDs with their range, they took one aks-pbs per group for silent shooting.
    1. hiocraib
      hiocraib 28 September 2013 15: 33 New
      -10
      Quote: vietnam7
      mp5SD submachine gun and it must be compared with APB

      what a fright !?

      Quote: vietnam7
      aiming range of screw cutter 400 meters,

      point to shoot a subsonic bullet at this distance?

      Quote: vietnam7
      when American seals and racers came to the asbestos brigade for competitions, in theory they knew her, they held them in their hands for the first time.

      for this they have for almost 40 years MP5.

      Quote: vietnam7
      for silent shooting took one aks-pbs per group.

      and then what is the meaning of Vintorez?

      ps and of course, MP5 are in service with the whole group of NATO special forces - i.e. no problems with ammunition.
      and of course the “sound” - 139 dB Vintoreza versus 70 dB MP5sd (standard ammunition) and 35-40 dB when firing special rounds ...
      1. bazilio
        bazilio 28 September 2013 15: 51 New
        +9
        Quote: hiocraib
        what a fright !?

        because the cartridges are different.
        Quote: hiocraib
        point to shoot a subsonic bullet at this distance?

        because at this distance you can hit targets, in contrast to the PP, for which the 20 m limit.
        1. hiocraib
          hiocraib 28 September 2013 16: 06 New
          -7
          Quote: bazilio
          because the cartridges are different.

          aah, I see! laughing
          then deservedly "having no world analogues"!

          Quote: bazilio
          because at this distance you can hit targets, in contrast to the PP, for which the 20 m limit.

          wow! and men don’t know! poor people suffer from PM for 50 meters ...
          while others say so that even a PM-ov bullet kills for 200 meters!
          fools, huh?
          1. PSih2097
            PSih2097 28 September 2013 22: 39 New
            +4
            Quote: hiocraib
            poor people suffer from PM for 50 meters ...

            some cannot even shoot himself from it, as a result they get a tremendous concussion ...
    2. PSih2097
      PSih2097 28 September 2013 20: 48 New
      +2
      Quote: vietnam7
      aiming range screw cutter 400 meters

      at 400 meters? what was your spread there on the target? And also specify the aiming range and effective aiming range - do you have the same thing, or are these different terms? because how to hit the target at 400 meters, you have to be born with this rifle, you have to take into account too much, although if at the shooting range, why not, but in the battle I strongly doubt it (there were precedents in the Caucasus) ...
      My personal IMHO range of BCC / AC / CP3 is a weapon of anti-terror or sabotage (which the GRU and the KGB) ...
      1. hiocraib
        hiocraib 28 September 2013 21: 09 New
        -5
        Quote: PSih2097
        at 400 meters?

        the dude wants to get into the gun only 20 meters, why did you stick to him with such difficult questions?
  8. vietnam7
    vietnam7 28 September 2013 16: 02 New
    +6
    Quote: hiocraib
    ps and of course, MP5 are in service with the whole group of NATO special forces -
    Special forces of what? "Rangers" from the first part of the predator will go to the forest or mountains with such a fart. In the limited space of the premises - yes the elements of mp5, but in the mountains you only have to shoot yourself so that the spirit of 400 meters does not bother to aim at you. "and then what is the meaning of Vintorez?" Vintorez has a sense in Grozny, paired with Val, at night to give no rest to spirits, and in the mountains to carry two types of weapons does not make sense, silently shoot anyway will determine in advance when and by whom. You’ll have time to screw the PBS in all sorts of different ways, and a store with a USM is not as heavy as a separate rifle with optics and cartridges.
    1. hiocraib
      hiocraib 28 September 2013 16: 10 New
      -7
      Quote: vietnam7
      Special forces of what?

      there, a little higher, they even posted a video for you - see whose special forces MP5 uses.

      Quote: vietnam7
      "Rangers" from the first part of the predator will go to the forest or mountains with such a fart.

      What else can you come up with?

      Quote: vietnam7
      In the limited space of the premises - yes the elements of Mr5

      MP5 is special operations, including indoor work.

      Quote: vietnam7
      in the mountains you only have to shoot yourself with him, so that the spirit of 400 meters does not bother to aim at you.

      and if I take the BCC, then the spirit for me will aim hard !?
      drinks
    2. hiocraib
      hiocraib 28 September 2013 16: 15 New
      -8
      Quote: vietnam7
      Vintorez has a meaning in Grozny, paired with Val, not to give rest to spirits at night,

      this type of perfume night, at 400 meters, in the city to shoot !?
      stunned!

      Quote: vietnam7
      it makes no sense to carry two types of weapons in the mountains; to shoot silently anyway will determine in advance when and by whom. You’ll have time to screw the PBS in all sorts of different ways, and a store with a USM is not as heavy as a separate rifle with optics and cartridges.



      ps The praise of Vintorez is from poverty. from the "presence" in the troops of silencers to AK and SVD.
    3. Hleb
      Hleb 29 September 2013 05: 13 New
      0
      Vintorez has a sense in Grozny, paired with Val, to give no rest to spirits at night, and in the mountains it makes no sense to carry two types of weapons, to shoot silently anyway will determine in advance when and by whom. You’ll have time to screw the PBS in all sorts of different ways, and a store with a USM is not as heavy as a separate rifle with optics and cartridges.
      guys, where did you serve ....
  9. vietnam7
    vietnam7 28 September 2013 16: 25 New
    +5
    Quote: hiocraib
    MP5 is special operations, including indoor work.

    Did you make video conclusions? And since when did the Vovchiks in the photo with the APC become GRU special forces? Half of the photos are staged about cool rangers. Do you happen to have a relative named Lopatin? the same "well-read" and annoying :)
  10. hiocraib
    hiocraib 28 September 2013 16: 32 New
    -7
    Quote: vietnam7
    Did you make video conclusions?

    For a change, you can also list weapons of American, German, Canadian, English, French, etc. to read.

    Quote: vietnam7
    And since when did the Vovchiks in the photo with the APC become GRU special forces?

    no idea. are we talking about them? or someone asked which of the NATO special forces with MP5 runs?

    Quote: vietnam7
    Half of the photos are staged about cool rangers.

    who would doubt it;)
    it is true that every year all kinds of special forces conduct competitions as well - and the photo with the view from them also falls to ordinary mortals.
    there is still a very good K-ISOM magazine, I recommend. wonderful reports and articles about many special forces of the world. Recently there was a small pro Moscow SOBR.

    Quote: vietnam7
    Do you happen to have a relative named Lopatin? the same "well-read" and annoying :)

    understandably. nothing to say on the topic, and you can be rude.
    drain protected.
  11. vietnam7
    vietnam7 28 September 2013 16: 41 New
    11
    Everything is written in magazines, as well as on the fence, Three American ladies obviously didn’t take a picture before exiting, Our demobilization and the KPVT are outweighed, It’s better to go to the military registration and enlistment office, ask to be taken for a “special operation”, you will get answers for a year better than magazines and me what is good and what is mountains
    1. soldier's grandson
      soldier's grandson 28 September 2013 20: 14 New
      +2
      demobility demobility strife, especially nowadays
  12. hiocraib
    hiocraib 28 September 2013 16: 49 New
    -5
    Quote: vietnam7
    Everything is written in magazines, as well as on the fence,

    nobody forces you to read the Russian yellow press.
    I don’t know that there are no good magazines in the Russian Federation (I even stopped writing around the world 3 years ago because of the quality that had sunk below the baseboard), especially on military topics. I can only advise you to learn a foreign language and write out standing editions.

    Quote: vietnam7
    Three American lads obviously didn’t take a picture before leaving,

    to you to throw off the link to militariforos (there by the way and the Russian thread is even nothing)?

    Quote: vietnam7
    It’s better to go to the military registration and enlistment office, ask that you be taken for a “special operation”, a year better than magazines and you will get answers, what is good and what are mountains

    and what is it for? these are the types of you (what can I do, upbringing does not allow me to interfere with my interlocutor) went to the military registration and enlistment office and for a special operation in the mountains with special forces?
    boldly. laughing laughing laughing

    ps I'm waiting for the classic "do you respect me?" laughing
  13. vietnam7
    vietnam7 28 September 2013 17: 16 New
    15
    Well, yes, I went to the military commissariat on the agenda, after a year and a half, the deputy commander of the SPN group, took part in the "terrorist operation" in Dagestan. I respect yours anyway, special forces competitions in our brigade took place in 97, cats and green berets came, but they weren’t pumped up guys from action films and magazine covers, the level of training of about our demobilization, if he was shoveling and not snowing, we put on our uniforms and the minimum differences - they hold their weapons in their own way, the Kalash shutter is distorted with the left hand, and the frogs have frogs, b barrel, we parachutes skull.
  14. hiocraib
    hiocraib 28 September 2013 17: 32 New
    -8
    Quote: vietnam7
    Well, yes, on the agenda I came to the draft board,

    Well, I came and served 30 years ago. So what? I don’t compare with anyone about this.

    Quote: vietnam7
    Special forces competitions in our brigade took place in 97, seals and green berets came, guys from militants and magazine covers weren’t pumped up, the level of training was about our demobilization,

    Well?
    Both in terms of equipment and technical equipment, they surpass Russian special forces - an important factor that often gives a huge advantage.
    the level of training is also indicative - with foreign AKs they fired no worse than local ones.

    and in the photo from the video we see exactly this - superiority in technical equipment - silencers, sights, etc. to standard weapons, without the invention of "having no world analogue" ...
    1. Норд
      Норд 28 September 2013 18: 50 New
      +7
      Who are they? And which special forces are they superior to? If nothing has changed the special tour 17 pieces from different departments. Has bile accumulated a lot? So this is not here. There is something concrete regarding BCC and Val, if not, then no need to spoil the air.
      1. hiocraib
        hiocraib 28 September 2013 21: 05 New
        -7
        Quote: Nord
        no need to spoil the air.

        and why did you ruin it !?
        1. viktorR
          viktorR 30 September 2013 20: 01 New
          0
          hmm ... 30 years ago you say served ... Yes, at your posts you will not give more than 15. Typical teenager outplayed in shooters). I doubt that you generally held weapons in your hands.
    2. PSih2097
      PSih2097 28 September 2013 21: 11 New
      +2
      Quote: hiocraib
      Both in terms of equipment and technical equipment, they surpass Russian special forces - an important factor that often gives a huge advantage.

      Well, the equipment is almost the same (because it is purchased from one manufacturer, at your own expense), but the technical side is yes, link, UAV, Drones, optics etc. by the way and it also periodically acquired, but again at their own expense. I went to the training camp that year, I had to gut my drive (kit, optics, again unloading, uniforms and other devices that you won’t find part of the day with fire, but if you do, you can only get them with a positive resolution of the part commander in stock)
      1. hiocraib
        hiocraib 28 September 2013 21: 45 New
        -8
        Quote: PSih2097
        Well, the equipment is almost the same (because it is purchased from one manufacturer, at your own expense)

        so already it is important!
        when the native state dresses you, shoes, or when you need to buy everything yourself!
        I'm not talking about the fact that their form is imprisoned for them, and is part of the system.

        Quote: PSih2097
        the technical side is yes, communications, UAVs, drones, optics, etc. By the way, this is also periodically acquired, but again at your own expense.

        How can I acquire a UAV at my own expense?
        1. PSih2097
          PSih2097 28 September 2013 22: 56 New
          +2
          Quote: hiocraib
          How can I acquire a UAV at my own expense?

          marries ALSUShke ... wassat
        2. PSih2097
          PSih2097 28 September 2013 23: 14 New
          0
          Quote: hiocraib
          How can I acquire a UAV at my own expense?

          or drag someone from Gr. Britan to whom the award is assigned, who of the Chicha and fugitive oligarchs are currently living there?
    3. PSih2097
      PSih2097 28 September 2013 21: 35 New
      +2
      Quote: hiocraib
      and in the photo from the video we see exactly this - superiority in technical equipment - silencers, sights, etc. to standard weapons, without the invention of "having no world analogue" ...

      Yes, there is no superiority, variations on the M4 (AR-15), but if they stood with the scaras, then yes ...
      about Glushakov (go to the Hansa, there are lots of offers, even at 338) and optics, it’s possible to buy almost any optics, even the same hyperion (though I don’t know who will pay the floor for this miracle ...), I I took two sights and two side brackets IOR-VALDADA AK Military Mount

      sights EOTech HHS1


      and ACOG 4x32 ECOS

      I once said that people playing airsoft - will be equipped for the most I do not want ... IMHO
      1. hiocraib
        hiocraib 28 September 2013 21: 54 New
        -6
        Quote: PSih2097
        Yes, there is no superiority, variations on the M4 (AR-15), but if they stood with the scaras, then yes.

        we see in the photo: integrated picanti, silencers, DRM, optics. (behind the scenes left night optics and snipers).
        In which special forces of the Republic of Armenia does all of this have all this, and not even one in five?

        Quote: PSih2097
        people playing airsoft - will be equipped for the most I do not want ... IMHO

        prices for the same optics for airsoft and for a gunshot differ by an order of magnitude - stupidly because the airsoft optics will fall apart after a couple of shots from a real gun. this has been repeatedly said.

        the detachment kit (for 10 people) of the German IdZ-ES costs about 1 euros ... even having written off half of all sorts of command modules, etc. we get about 000 euros per soldier - uniforms, communications, optics, optronics, NIB.
        1. PSih2097
          PSih2097 28 September 2013 22: 54 New
          +1
          I have the entire body kit of the drive from the SAA tactical, and the sights are native (with a magnifier - 56 tyr, akog 62 tyr (Chinese crafts can be bought at 5-6 ty), and not airsoft Chinese crafts ...
          about the uniform, I think you will agree with me ... Now is the time that the properovsky cartoons from Gortex, a full set of states, for 32 rubles plus $ 000 forwarding, will be delivered to you by courier within 100 weeks ...
          1. hiocraib
            hiocraib 28 September 2013 23: 13 New
            -1
            Quote: PSih2097
            Now it’s such a time that properovskoy cartoons from Gortex, a full set of states, for 32 rubles plus $ 000 forwarding, will be delivered to you by courier within 100 weeks ...

            the worst thing is that this is the norm for us.
            I’m interested in the reaction of an American soldier if he was forced to buy Russian uniforms, and even from a salary!
            1. PSih2097
              PSih2097 29 September 2013 01: 39 New
              -1
              Quote: hiocraib
              I’m interested in the reaction of an American soldier if he was forced to buy Russian uniforms, and even from a salary!

              Well, this is our RF Ministry of Defense (morph), on the other hand, if we had shields used better, I think the states would buy used, they bought a license used ... ours made it easier, Yudashkin practically repeated the shape of the US Marines (with our drawing figures) for 36 000 r a complete set, but it turned out that our generals do not have enough caviar with estates ...
            2. vanaheym
              vanaheym 30 September 2013 05: 09 New
              +1
              Quote: hiocraib
              I'm interested in the reaction of an American soldier

              Americans very well buy personally the same Beyond / Crye clothes for their money, and unregistered shoes too.
      2. vanaheym
        vanaheym 30 September 2013 05: 06 New
        +1
        Quote: PSih2097
        about the Glushaks (go to the Hansa, there are many proposals, even at .338)

        On the Hansa, silencers are sold in the country in which they are permitted - namely in Ukraine. They are not on sale in Russia and I think that in the near future it will not be.
        Quote: PSih2097
        even the same hyperion

        The Hyperon is a clone of the Leatherwood ART riflescope, developed during the Vietnam War. Despite the fact that it costs about $ 350, it is made much better than 1P59, and the glass there is more vigorous.
        Quote: PSih2097
        I once said that the people playing airsoft - will be equipped for the most I do not want

        Airsoft sights quite successfully fall apart, even when mounted on weapons with quite calm recoil, such as AR-15
  15. Massik
    Massik 28 September 2013 20: 31 New
    +4
    Nothing new, these nagging ACs and BCCs have been used since 2000 and everyone already knows about them, why shovel the info over and over again? They don’t especially use them, the most popular PAB7 is rarely mentioned for some reason. Stop laughing in the comments, discussing special troops on reports, magazine articles and epic photos, you will first serve a year inside, and then talk to whom and what is better. Best of all, a head on his shoulders that knows how to think and learn.
    Both in terms of equipment and technical equipment, they surpass Russian special forces - an important factor that often gives a huge advantage.
    the level of training is also indicative - with foreign AKs they fired no worse than local ones.
    Dear you, ours, in battle 80% consists of planning and 20% of shooting, the main thing is experience, not shooting at a shooting gallery and a lot of gadgets on the machine.
    1. PSih2097
      PSih2097 28 September 2013 20: 56 New
      +3
      Quote: Marssik
      I’m funny about the selection of ammunition, everyone writes 7n12, SP5 and SP6, but you won’t find them in the afternoon, nobody really uses them, the most popular PAB9 is rarely mentioned for some reason.

      Well, you’re in vain, there are plenty of them in the warehouses of the GRAU, they are also in sufficient quantities in parts (though nobody will give them to you just like that, in principle, this applies to the US), but the firing of cartridges starts when they are expired ( then the buzz and hell begins after the shooting range, when you start cleaning) ...
      Quote: Marssik
      Dear you, ours, in battle 80% consists of planning and 20% of shooting, the main thing is experience, not shooting at a shooting gallery and a lot of gadgets on the machine.

      But rightly so, even a battery of trays will do more trouble than a sniper, so the best weapon is a connection with the gods of war or with flyers ...
    2. hiocraib
      hiocraib 28 September 2013 21: 03 New
      -7
      Quote: Marssik
      in battle, 80% consists of planning and 20% of shooting

      will you prove that planning using UAVs, satellite positioning, a real-time picture of the battlefield, the presence of sniper, DRM and silent barrels in the unit will be at the same level as without all this?
      laughing
      1. Massik
        Massik 29 September 2013 01: 18 New
        +5
        when you get used to your devices and I disguise myself well and shoot from an open sight, for you my appearance will be fatal laughing
        1. PSih2097
          PSih2097 29 September 2013 01: 38 New
          0
          Quote: Marssik
          when you get used to your devices and I disguise myself well and shoot from an open sight, for you my appearance will be fatal laughing

          for people like you, there are second numbers that find and indicate you (for the gods of war), I don’t think that by the time you determine us you will be alive ...
          1. Massik
            Massik 30 September 2013 16: 34 New
            0
            for people like you, there are second numbers that find and indicate you (for the gods of war), I don’t think that by the time you determine us you will be alive ...
            what are the second numbers? Are you fixated on snipers? I’m not a sniper, but the shooter would start fighting at 30-40m, so it’s unlikely that aviation and artillery would help you. Disguising from a UAV and a thermal imager is not difficult
    3. vanaheym
      vanaheym 30 September 2013 05: 15 New
      +1
      Quote: Marssik
      the most popular PAB9 is for some reason very rarely mentioned.

      He probably is not even mentioned because he was “the most popular”, but was purchased by several parties and only the Ministry of Internal Affairs, does not have a GRAU index and was not adopted by the army, and discontinued in 2003, unlike 7N9 (SPP ) and 7Н12 (BP), which are now used.
  16. denkastro
    denkastro 28 September 2013 21: 51 New
    +7
    At one time I had a chance to work with Val. It’s not just a weapon, it’s a very accurate tool. There is no price for it in skillful hands. The only thing I would like to increase the barrel resource, although not critical. And all those who align her with a swan neck in favor of the first, simply did not hold a screw cutter or a shaft in their hands. Imho.
  17. PSih2097
    PSih2097 28 September 2013 23: 15 New
    +1
    I will give one comment from a discussion of a similar question ...
    “SP-6 penetrates with probability 60% 3 class bulletproof vests with pressed plastic armored plates at distances up to 50 meters due to weakly deformable armor-piercing core. Titanium, steel, aluminum and ceramic 3 class armored plates provide guaranteed protection against this bullet on any range. "

    If I remember correctly, ESAPI plates provide 4th class of protection (standard for NATO countries) ...
    Conclusion: against whom to use such cartridges? Yes, and shoot, I want to notice with aim, at a distance of 400 m, with a bullet speed of 310 m / s - something from the category of fiction ...

    Against the obvious opponents of Russia it is too wasteful to use such weapons, I doubt very much that their price is slightly higher than 5.45 * 39 / US. It is not disputed that in the 80s the cartridge was successful, but today it is "debatable" ...

    And a little reference: (5.45 * 39 / US) The average accuracy of R50 at a distance of 100 m ≤ 3,5 cm
    (SP-6) Average accuracy R50 at a distance of 100 m ≤3,5 cm

    It is precisely because of the above described reasons that the US Armed Forces did not begin to adopt something like that ...
    1. Massik
      Massik 29 September 2013 01: 25 New
      +1
      so 5.45 and effective just in these 100m they won’t give any gain, 7.62 hasn’t gone anywhere else, or do you know secret cartridges that hit 7n22 at subsonic speed and break through a 5th grade plate?
    2. luiswoo
      luiswoo 30 September 2013 07: 55 New
      0
      “SP-6 penetrates with probability 60% 3 class bulletproof vests with pressed plastic armored plates at distances up to 50 meters due to weakly deformable armor-piercing core. Titanium, steel, aluminum and ceramic 3 class armored plates provide guaranteed protection against this bullet on any range. "

      Well so, therefore the Exhaust appeared. The customer, the FSB (the KGB in girlhood), stopped arranging 9x39 - 12,7x55 appeared. What is the problem actually?
      Quote: wikipedia
      (cartridge) СЦ-130ВПС - guaranteed penetration of 16mm steel plate at a distance of 200 meters or heavy bulletproof vest 5 protection class (according to GOST) at a range of 100 meters.


      Against obvious opponents of Russia use such weapons too wastefully, I doubt very much that their price is slightly higher than that of 5.45 * 39 / CSS. It is not disputed that the cartridge was successful in the 80, but today it is "debatable" ...

      Who was the KGB going to massively fight with special ammunition for the "counterterror"? This commentator ate some not so mushrooms.
  18. PSih2097
    PSih2097 29 September 2013 01: 19 New
    0
    And if for good, then the SR-3M "Whirlwind", a butt stock frame, the same BCC without a tree, but with 30 rounds ...
    with twenty (with ten did not find)

    Small-sized submachine gun SR-3M "Whirlwind" with a magazine for 30 rounds, the stock is folded, the front handle is unfolded.

    he would have a pistol grip, a normal butt, the people have everything else ...
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. denkastro
    denkastro 29 September 2013 02: 57 New
    +2
    Whirlwind is a completely different movie and nine too. I say you need to shoot to understand.
  21. Proud.
    Proud. 30 September 2013 05: 29 New
    +1
    The leading designer of the rifle was Peter Ivanovich Serdyukov.
    At least one Serdyukov did not disgrace the name.
  22. mechanic driver
    mechanic driver 19 October 2013 18: 53 New
    0
    [quote = hiocraib] Germans have MP5SD with a silencer in service since 1974.
    with appropriate ammunition.

    but how does the afftor of "having no world analogues" know about this ... the main thing is to sketch it out? [/ quo this weapon has no analogue. well, okay about that. Which of the specialists will tell me about robotic sniper systems of the 80s and 90s. something specialists are silent and the topic was promising.
  23. realist
    realist 15 November 2013 00: 05 New
    0
    Quote: il grand casino
    It's funny))) That's just really vigorous horseradish and mustard, I just tried in Germany ... I thought my eyes would pop out))) After that, half a liter of beer failed nowhere))

    Hello! And what kind of mustard have you tasted? In Germany for twenty years, I tried all (!!!) varieties of mustard from Löwensenf, to the Thuringian and .... all cured vinegar. In other words, product translation. And, if you are interested, during the lunch break, I said that in Germany there is no real mustard. And my wife buying mustard powder in the store (the so-called Russian) makes that mustard. Brought the next day at the request of one (German) in a small jar of caviar YOUR mustard, I heard a request to sell (well, they are such a people) for FIVE marks (the story is old), each next jar. Like this.
    But I ask you to name the variety of very strong mustard German mustard.
    Sincerely.
    PS Horseradish is not very spoiled (!), Although it was far from wasabi. And here it’s not a matter of taste. Mustard, from the word it’s bitter, and senf from ... ???
  24. Timofeych
    Timofeych 14 November 2014 23: 17 New
    +1
    To kill terrorists (usually without serious armor) penetration is enough. Anyone who talks about “cool” American armor should first find out what it is like to run around 8-10 kg in at least a marathon. In addition, the helmets break through NATO helmets without problems. Russian equipment is more budget-friendly than western, and as history has shown, mass is more efficient than quality (all modern manufactures are based on this).