Combat aircraft. Morane-Saulnier: are they as good as they say?

37
When there was a discussion of the Devuatin D520 aircraft, many commentators said that Morane-Saulnier aircraft were no worse than Devuatin fighters. I would venture to make out this moment as much as possible.





First, a short excursion into history, just pay tribute to, because the "Moran-Sun" has long ceased to exist. But since the contribution made to the story aviationquite large, remember. Why not?

The Moran-Solnez company was originally founded under the name Societe Anonyme des Aeroplanes Morane-Saulnier 10 on October 1911 by the brothers Leon and Robert Moran and their friend Raymond Solne.

Later the name was reduced to the usual "Moran-Sun"

The aircraft of the company took an active part in the battles of the First World War. Naturally, on the side of the Entente.

And in 1914, Robert Solnez entered the history of aviation as the first machine gun with a synchronizer to be installed on the aircraft. The planes were Morane-Saulnier G models, the machine gun was Hotchkiss caliber 7,9 mm. And so, in fact, it all began.



During the existence of Moran-Solne, engineers and designers of the company developed more than a hundred aircraft, including our hero, the MS.406 fighter, which was most often encountered in the French Air Force until the defeat of France in World War II.

In May 1965, after the nationalization of the aviation industry in France, the mention of the Moranes and the Sun completely disappeared from its name, and the company became known as Socata.

Now about the fighters.

Morane-Saulnier MS.405, 1935 year


The story begins in the mid-30 of the last century, when all the leading countries began to develop “new wave” fighters - monoplanes equipped with liquid-cooled engines, with a retractable landing gear and an enclosed cockpit.



France was no exception, moreover, the founders of military aviation still tried to be on the cutting edge of military developments. And a competition was announced to create a promising fighter. With fairly serious parameters: the maximum speed should have been at least 450 km / h at an altitude of 4000 m, and armament - one or two guns of 20 mm caliber plus machine guns.

History knows that in the battle between five firms (Block MB.150, Devwin D.513, Loire 250, Moran-Sun, MS.405, and Newpor Ni.160), the Moran-Sun plane won ". It is believed that MS.405 was the most conservative project. And perhaps not the best. But these are already aspects, since Moran-Solne celebrated the victory, followed by workdays.

By design, the aircraft was not at all something advanced. Almost the entire frame of the aircraft was made of duralumin profiles and steel pipes, and the skin of the wing and the front of the fuselage was made of plimax material - plywood glued with a thin aluminum sheet.



Powerplant - 12-cylinder V-shaped liquid cooling engine "Hispanic-Suiza" 12Ygrs (860 hp) with a three-blade metal screw "Chavier". In the collapse of the engine cylinders was the 20-mm gun "Spanish-Suiza" S9. In addition to the cannon, the fighter had two wing machine guns with drum magazine feed. Shops in the wing were located above the machine guns and therefore they had to be hidden behind the fairings.

The gas tank was not protected, however, a firewall separated it from the cab. The pilot had no armor protection.

And then "Hispanic-Suiza" proposed to put on the plane another engine (modified) and a screw. The Ispano-Suiz 12Ycrs motor with a reduction gear and the Ispano-Suiz 27M propeller with a larger diameter (3 m) made the aircraft more interesting. Although it was necessary to lengthen the landing gear because of a larger diameter screw, change it by reinforcing its fastening and increasing the track.



Replacing the engine and propeller increased the speed to 482 km / h. And the order came to build a large series.

Morane-Saulnier MS.406. Xnumx


How did MS.405 turn into MS.406? Yes, very simple. In fact, this is the same plane, only the engine was replaced again. The MS.406 was powered by the Hispanic-Suiz 12Y31 motor, which differed from the 12Ycrs by a new gearbox (with the same gear ratio) and a lower design height.



But according to the documents, it was supposedly a different car. We will not argue.

The fact is that MS.406, when it was developed, was a very advanced aircraft. But the four years that the French military department tried to establish mass production played a very cruel joke.

Four and a half years have passed since the task was issued, during which time much has changed, including potential opponents.

Britain put the Hurricanes and Spitfires on stream in 1938. If Hurricane was, let's say, almost equivalent to MS.406, then the second was superior to it. And the Germans by this time had a more perfect Bf.109Е.

Combat aircraft. Morane-Saulnier: are they as good as they say?


In general, I would ascertain the fact that having a good development, the French were categorically late for production. Yes, and constantly lacking ... right, engines!

The 1938 year is the year when the French government began to have problems with Marc Birkigt, the founder of the Spanish-Suiza. The French government began the nationalization of the entire aviation industry and Birkigt rushed back to Switzerland, which caused many problems for the French Air Force.

But we already wrote about this: About Birkigte and "Spanish Suite"

It got to the point that licensed Spanish-Suisas began to be purchased where they were licensed. For example, it was possible to negotiate with the Czechoslovakians, where the “Spanish-Suizu” was produced at the Avia plants. They ordered a lot, but received only 80 pieces, after which Czechoslovakia was gone.

By the way, they tried to buy M-100A motors in the USSR, which were just “Spanish-Suisas”, licensed, but the Russians turned their fingers around their temple and did not sell the motors.

Therefore, MS.406 was produced both slowly and unevenly. There were other problems with the completion of finished machines.



Oddly enough, but the plane "went" with the pilots. The car was available even to a not very experienced pilot, forgave a lot. Low wing loading provided good horizontal maneuverability and acceptable landing speed.

But there were also negative points. Pilots noted insufficient engine power. Moreover, due to overheating of the engine, it was difficult to operate at maximum conditions. The radiator system played a role, which did not close the blinds, but was pulled into the fuselage. To get a speed of the order of 450 km / h, it was necessary to retract the radiator, improving aerodynamics, but the motor was overheating. A kind of vicious circle.

The machine guns, which did not have heating, quietly froze in the wings at an altitude of more than 4 thousand meters. This was written by Saint-Exupery. The ammunition supply of the machine guns was depressingly small, in addition, it was extremely difficult to get to the store.

Well, the lack of armor was not encouraging. So much so that in the combat units they began to independently equip the aircraft with armored backs from old fighters.

The first MS.406 fell into military service in North Africa, but their European fighters really went into battle. By September 1939, when Germany attacked France, its Air Force totaled 557 units of MS.406.

And though not often, but during the “Strange War” battles took place with the Germans, in which it became possible to understand the combat value of MS.406 as a fighter.

It is clear that the main opponent for MS.406 was Messerschmitt Bf.109E. The German was superior to the Frenchman both in speed (at 75-80 km / h) and in rate of climb. And with the weapons, the 109 was much better: one 20-mm gun more.

The Frenchman seemed to have better ammunition: the HS 404 was equipped with 60 shells, and the MG-FF at Messerschmitt was equipped with 15 in the carob store or 30 in the drum store. But the German fired twice as many shells per second, so this is not so in general and an advantage in practice.



There were pluses. MS.406 had a smaller turning radius, which allowed us to successfully fight on the horizontal, but the war has already shown that the horizontal is a passing one. So, realizing their advantage on the vertical, the Germans very successfully shot down MS.406.

For the “strange war” the French Air Force lost not so many planes (less than 20), but it became clear that a real war would begin - and the losses would be much more serious.

It was necessary to replace MS.406 with something that really could resist German fighters (the same Devatin D.520 or Bloch MB.151), but alas, the French military department was so unable to adequately respond to the situation ...

It came to the ridiculous: as a fighter MS.406 was not able to fight with the bombers! Yes, the Frenchman still somehow managed with slow Ju-87В and Non-111, but Do-17Z and Ju-88 easily left.

It seems that there was an option, and it has been since the 1937 of the year when the Moran-Solne proposed the Air Force project MS.540, actually the same MS.405, but with a metal semi-monocoque fuselage, a slightly modified wing and reinforced weapons (gun and four machine guns) .

However, the engine remained the same old 12Ycrs, and even while testing it accelerated the aircraft to 557 km / h, MS.406 could not save anything.

And the Air Force chose Devuatin D.520. They didn’t give up at Moran-Solne, and prepared two more MS.406 modernization projects, under the names MS.409 and MS.410.

The first one was to install a radiator from MS.406 on MS.540. The second one involved not only replacing the radiator, but also modernizing the wing with the deployment of four MAC 1934 M39 machine guns with tape power and ammunition up to 500 rounds per barrel. The machine guns were equipped with heating and a new electropneumatic system. Plus, new aerodynamic improvements gave an increase in speed at 30-50 km / h.

The Air Force considered the work successful and ordered 500 vehicles. But the beginning of the German offensive put an end to all ambitions and a real war began.

Some of the changes planned for MS.410 were implemented on the latest MS.406 series released in the same year, or on earlier machines directly at the front. This is a new scope and an increased armor plate. At field airfields, a heating system for machine guns and a cabin with exhaust gases, and rear-view mirrors were mounted.

It was clear to everyone that these were half measures, but it was necessary to fight at least with such machines, so production and modernization continued.

Only in March 1940, when it was possible to build the D.520 assembly and expand the production of MB.151 and MB.152, did MS.406 finally be discontinued.

Through the efforts of French officials from the Ministry of Defense, MS.406 became the champion in terms of mass among French fighters: along with MS.405, they built 1098 pieces.

This aircraft continued to be the main fighter of the French Air Force in May, when the Germans went on the offensive. At that time, there were about 800 MS.406 in combat units and reserves, and 135 were also based in the colonies. In total, on May 1 there were 1070 MS.405 and MS.406 fighters.

How did MS.406 fight?



In total, the Morans shot down about a third of the planes lost by the Germans in the French campaign. But this is more due to the number than because of the high level of the machine. Plus, the maneuverability of the car helped a little.

The fact that the list of aces of the French Air Force contains only two pilots who fought on MS.406 (Le Gloan and Le Nigen with 11 confirmed and two unconfirmed victories for each), says a lot.

And the bulk of MS.406 was lost when some of the staff came up with the golden idea of ​​using fighter aircraft as attack aircraft. The effectiveness of MS.406, which did not have a bomb suspension and outstanding weapons, was low in that capacity, and the losses were significant.

Achieved successes generally cost MS.406 a lot. Around 150 MS.406 was shot down and about 100 lost on the ground. Especially many planes died on the ground during the massive German raids on 10 in May.

However, the fact that of all the French fighters MS.406 firmly held the championship in relative losses. One downed MS.406 accounted for 2,5 enemy aircraft.

After the surrender of France, MS.406 fought in North Africa, Syria, French Indochina (Cambodia), Lebanon, and Madagascar. Basically, their fate was to die in battles with the British Air Force, which actively mastered the former French colonies.

MS.406 also fought as part of the Finnish and Croatian Air Force on the side of Germany. In addition, MS.406 ended up in the Turkish, Finnish and Bulgarian Air Force.

In Switzerland, they established their own production under license. The plane had the same 12Y31 engine with a retractable radiator, but was distinguished by equipment and armament (two Swiss 7,49 mm machine guns with tape power in the wings). The aircraft was produced under the brand D-3800 and D-3801.



What can be said as an epitaph? It is worth agreeing that MS.406 was a very good airplane. At the time when it was designed. 1935 year.

But the frankly long deployment of production and the lack of normal modernization work on the machine nullified all the positive aspects.

MS.406 turned out to be an airplane with no perspective, and in any case, it would have to be changed at the very turn of the 1940 of the year. But the situation so happened that the plane was unable to seriously confront the more modern German and British (in the colonies) aircraft.

But since it was released quite a lot, then MS.406 was forced to go into battle. Comparable to the Soviet I-16, no matter how it looks.



LTX MS.406

Wingspan, m: 10,61
Length, m: 8,13
Height, m: 2,71
Wing area, м2: 17,10

Weight, kg
- empty aircraft: 1893
- normal takeoff: 2470

Engine: 1 x Hispano-Suiza 12Y 31 x 860 hp

Maximum speed km / h: 486
Cruising speed, km / h: 320
Practical range, km: 900
Speed, m / min: 667
Practical ceiling, m: 9850

Armament: one 20-mm gun HS-404 and two 7,5-mm machine gun MAC 34.
37 comments
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  1. +3
    12 August 2019 18: 20
    heading - "As good as they say ..." the text of the article - "turned out to be a plane with no perspective." Somehow the logic does not fit, and the article is not bad. I like it.
    1. +3
      12 August 2019 23: 45
      The article is really good, but why does Roman attribute his errors to the audience? Somehow I do not recall under the article on Devouin particularly enthusiastic reviews of French aircraft. Although, perhaps, they appeared later than I read. If anything, I spoke of Devouin as an ordinary airplane, and Moran is considered one. France in the 40s showed complete incapacity in matters of fighter aircraft to dry drain the main players. For some reason, it has recently been customary to scold the domestic triumph of liquid-cooled fighters, but with a cursory glance to see their superiority over the French.
      1. +2
        13 August 2019 09: 54
        Somehow I don’t remember under the article about Devouin especially enthusiastic reviews about French planes
        Then consider me the first. smile There were a number of very good designs and 520 was one of them. Another question is the lag on engines and the lack of components, but here the designers are not to blame recourse
        1. +1
          13 August 2019 10: 41
          Thanks for the answer, but do not tell me what specific advantages did this design have over the Yak-1 and Bf-109?
          1. +1
            13 August 2019 11: 01
            Well, for example, on the 520-ke there was a completely benign walkie-talkie, which I could not boast of.
            In terms of flight range (according to various sources, from 1000 to 1300 km), the Frenchman was superior to both. It was a good dive, better than a yak and about the same level as emil. It was superior to the last in turns. By the weight of the salvo (one of Spain and 4 7.5 machine guns) was better than both. The machine guns were with decent base and heating. The chassis is wide and stable. Emily received the Bronespink before.
            The cabin is quite spacious and conveniently arranged.
            1. +1
              13 August 2019 13: 28
              In flight range

              on a European theater of war not significantly
              By volley weight

              exactly 4 machine guns? Roman seems to have written about 2? And even if 4, then not ShKAS at all

              It turns out:
              Yak - walkie-talkie, better dive, comfortable cabin
              109 - horizontal maneuverability, possibly the weight of a salvo, reliable chassis, earlier armored back
              At the same time, it was inferior to both in maximum speed, acceleration, rate of climb, vertical maneuverability. Definitely inferior in value and manufacturability. Probably inferior to Yak in horizontal maneuverability. I am silent about the cost and possibility of mass production.
              It seems like it turns out that Yaku is not a competitor with the walkie-talkie and the obviously weak Messerschmitt competitor.
              1. +2
                13 August 2019 15: 26
                For starters - range is always significant. This, among other things, is a patrol time. You can also recall how many planes were shot down when they left the battle due to lack of fuel. And in extreme cases - underfilling fuel = lightening the machine by several tens of kg. For maximum speed - it is immaterial, but for accelerating, bends, climb is important. You can recall how lightened the machine in the field by removing everything that is possible.
                With Emil, the 520th fought on an equal footing. In fact, it was inferior at altitudes of up to 4 km, and at altitudes of more than 5 km both speed and rate of climb were close
                http://aviarmor.net/aww2/aircraft/france/dewoitine_d520.htm
                There, on April 21, 1940, a demonstration battle was held between Messerschmitt Bf.109E-3 and D.520. Messesrschmitt had an advantage in speed (about 20 km / h) and rate of climb at low altitudes. The D.520 showed better maneuverability, and at higher altitudes of more than 3000 m and greater climb.
                Source: http://aviarmor.net/aww2/aircraft/france/dewoitine_d520.htmo the maximum speed of the yak (at least - in the year 41) can only be said conditionally. Serial cars made of plywood and fabric were inferior to prototypes at best 20-30km, and at worst - all 100. But all-metal devuatins flew in the same way as their prototypes.
                Devuatin was all right with manufacturability (it’s moral, with his Plimax, not so good) As well as maintainability. By the way, I definitely can’t say which wing the 520 had, but most likely the split wing, like its predecessor D-510/513. But the integral wing of the yak created additional problems for him
            2. 0
              14 August 2019 11: 03
              The 520 had aerodynamics at 109f, while the 109e was still inferior
              and because the 109e didn’t yet have a really powerful engine,
              he did not have a significant advantage over verticals over 520, and even lost in the horizon. It seems to me that the 520 was an equal opponent for the 109th and the first spitfire. It’s very interesting to compare Mig-1 (or Mig-3) and 520, but I know too little about the instant.
      2. +3
        13 August 2019 12: 47
        Quote: MooH
        why does Roman attribute his delusions to the audience? Somehow I do not recall under the article on Devouin particularly enthusiastic reviews of French aircraft.

        This is a long-established author's style. Plebs is strange without understanding anything, but I will tell the whole truth. Check out the rest of the article, most of them stigmatized by stupid little people.
        This is in retaliation for the fact that in the same comments they find a very large number of inaccuracies, substitution of concepts and sometimes a junk attitude to the material.
  2. +3
    12 August 2019 18: 33
    Do not forget that in 1933-1940 France was considered one of the leading powers militarily, second only to England ...
    1. +2
      12 August 2019 18: 58
      I agree, and probably the author’s indication of some similarities in the fate of MS and I-16 (despite the fact that I am an apologist for the Red Army Air Force) I accept. When they came up with, they were - super, when the war came, the planes grew their strength request
    2. +1
      13 August 2019 01: 45
      I would not say that the French pre-war army was inferior to England, if we take the land part without a fleet
  3. The comment was deleted.
  4. -1
    12 August 2019 19: 12
    The article is good, I agree with the author in everything. Thank!
  5. +10
    12 August 2019 19: 17
    Dear author, thanks for the work.
    However, in September 1939, Germany did not attack France. It is France and Britain declared war on Germany in response to the attack on Poland.
  6. 0
    12 August 2019 19: 39
    In Finland, before the alteration for our MS 406 engines, they showed very much nothing, despite the superiority of the Red Army Air Force, but this is more likely our misfortune from the lack of normal organization of the Air Force's actions, and not from the performance characteristics of aircraft. FINNY putting Soviet M-105 engines (for money laughing from Germany. cool ally request trophy love for the closest sidekick), repaired their "Merko Morani" from MS 406, a nice (worthy) fighter of the first half of the Second World War. Well, our pilots knocked them down not weakly angry including and on the P-39 and P-40
    1. +3
      12 August 2019 23: 29
      In Finland, before the alteration for our MS 406 engines, they showed very much nothing, despite the superiority of the Red Army Air Force, but this is more likely our misfortune from the lack of normal organization of the Air Force's actions, and not from the performance characteristics of aircraft.

      Can you give an example?
      Arriving in Finland in December 1939, the Morans were not equipped with CANNONS!
      Finns write about 16 shot down Soviet planes and 1 lost "Moran"!
      But I did not come across descriptions of battles and types of Soviet cars shot down by Finns!
    2. Alf
      0
      13 August 2019 08: 29
      Quote: Popov Konstantin Ivanovich
      In Finland, before the alteration for our MS 406 engines, they showed very nothing, despite the superiority of the Red Army Air Force,

      Compared to what? With I-16 and I-153?
  7. +5
    12 August 2019 20: 07
    "... parts of the fuselage were made of plimax material - plywood glued to a thin aluminum sheet."
    With a sheet of duralumin. In the 1930s, Plymax was used in the aircraft and automotive industries. In particular, Plymax was used by British automakers Triumph Motor Company and Trojan.
  8. +5
    12 August 2019 20: 13
    Wiki:
    It was founded under the name Société Anonyme des Aéroplanes Morane-Saulnier 10 on October 1911 in Puteau, near Paris, by the brothers Leon and Robert Moran, and their friend Raymond Sun.

    In 1914, Robert Solnez was the first in the military aircraft industry to install a synchronized 7,9 mm machine gun from Hotchkiss on several Morane-Saulnier G model aircraft. Starting in 1914, the aircraft went into serial production under the designation Morane-Saulnier N.

    During the existence of the Moran-Solnez company, she developed about 140 of various aviation projects, and among them - the MS.1081 fighter, released in the amount of 406 pieces, most often found in the French Air Force until the defeat and occupation of France by German troops in 1940. The famous French pilot Roland Garros worked for the Morane-Saulnier as a test pilot.

    In 1963, Morane-Saulnier was acquired by Potez and renamed Société d'exploitation établissements Morane-Saulnier.

    In May 1965, after the nationalization of the aviation industry in France, the mention of Morane-Saulnier completely disappeared from its name, and the company became known as Socata. Currently, only Morane-Saulnier MS880 Rallye and Morane-Saulnier MS890 Rallye airplanes are used, the most famous models of Morane-Saulnier in the postwar years.

    Skomorokhov:
    The Moran-Solnez company was originally founded under the name Societe Anonyme des Aeroplanes Morane-Saulnier 10 on October 1911 by the brothers Leon and Robert Moran and their friend Raymond Solne.
    Later the name was reduced to the usual "Moran-Sun"
    The aircraft of the company took an active part in the battles of the First World War. Naturally, on the side of the Entente.
    And in 1914, Robert Solnez entered the history of aviation as the first machine gun with a synchronizer to be installed on the aircraft. The planes were Morane-Saulnier G models, the machine gun was Hotchkiss caliber 7,9 mm. And so, in fact, it all began.
    During the existence of Moran-Solne, engineers and designers of the company developed more than a hundred aircraft, including our hero, the MS.406 fighter, which was most often encountered in the French Air Force until the defeat of France in World War II.
    In May 1965, after the nationalization of the aviation industry in France, the mention of the Moranes and the Sun completely disappeared from its name, and the company became known as Socata.

    What is the percentage of citation?
    Roman, it would be nice to bring sources to the article. Where copy-paste. Better at the beginning. So as not to bother the audience by re-reading previously published on the network.
    1. +3
      12 August 2019 20: 28
      Quote: Dooplet11
      Better at the beginning. So as not to bother the audience by re-reading previously published on the network.

      But will there be much left? laughing laughing laughing
      1. +5
        13 August 2019 08: 31
        Little. Roman's article, - a compilation from Wiki, "Air war over France" (https://www.liveinternet.ru/users/3330352/post131851398/), article "Morane-Saulnier MS.406 fighter" resource "Virtual encyclopedia of military aviation" (http://pro-samolet.ru/aircraft-ww2-france/fighters/964-fighter-morane-saulnier-ms406) and the resource "Corner of the sky" (http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/ ms406.html). And even almost without blunders. smile
        True, Skomorokhov again had shoals with illustrations. On all color photos MS.412 or MS.450, - Swiss development options MS.406, but not the "hero" of Roman's opus.
        It seems to me that Skororokhov’s simplification of information about MS.406 posted on these sites excluded many interesting points from the history of this machine. Article minus. Those interested are better off referring to the primary sources.
        1. +5
          13 August 2019 08: 44
          Compiling, Roman voluntarily or involuntarily distorts the information:
          Novel:
          Achieved successes generally cost MS.406 a lot. Around 150 MS.406 was shot down and about 100 lost on the ground. Especially many planes died on the ground during the massive German raids on 10 in May.

          However, the fact that of all the French fighters MS.406 firmly held the championship in relative losses. One downed MS.406 accounted for 2,5 enemy aircraft.

          "Air war over France":
          By the beginning of the 2 World War, MS.406 was the main fighter of the French Air Force (the 1.09.1939 of the year the French Air Force had the 557 Moranes in service), but was on the verge of obsolescence. Yielded to the German Bf-109 in all respects except maneuverability (speed 460 km / h, armament of the 1x20-mm gun, 2x7,5-mm machine gun). Often used for other purposes (for example, to attack ground troops). He carried the highest losses in battle among all types of French fighters.
          ...
          By the beginning of World War II, the French had managed to receive 2 Hawks, and by the time the German troops invaded France, the Armee de I'Air had more than 130 Seventy-fifths. This nimble, reliable machine with a decent speed for those years (300 km / h) was quite tenacious and well armed (500x6 mm machine guns). The Hawks were quite successful in fighting both fighters and bombers. Of course, Curtis was inferior to Messerschmitt, but the French pilots fought them with perseverance and skill. According to statistics Curtis takes the second place in combat effectiveness, only slightly inferior to Devatin D.520. For one shot down N.75 there are 6,2 enemy aircraft destroyed - two to two and a half times more than MB. 151 / 152 and MS. 406.

          It turns out that according to the specified resource, MS.406 has the first place in terms of relative losses. But below the "rating". laughing
          1. +2
            13 August 2019 12: 36
            Thank you for your attention and comparison of the information.
    2. +3
      13 August 2019 10: 12
      That's probably the secret to such a frequent publication of Roman's articles ...
      And regarding the French ace Pierre Le Gloan mentioned in the article, as far as we know, he flew on Dewoitine-520, white "6".
      1. +1
        13 August 2019 12: 57
        Quote: fighter angel
        ..... That's probably the secret to such a frequent publication of Roman's articles ...

        There is nothing wrong with copy paste. After all, to collect from several disparate articles one with a normal topic is the same work. Another question is that the primary sources (where it came from) should be indicated.
        1. +2
          13 August 2019 20: 34
          There is nothing wrong with copy paste
          Only this kind of resource rules is forbidden?
          I understand if the purpose of the article is to compare and analyze different opinions expressed on third-party resources. Or their assessment, taking into account in the form of "newly discovered circumstances" in the form of original archival materials. What's the point in a simplified repost? It makes more sense to just write, for example, a topic title, provide links to resources and put an end to it. :)
  9. +3
    12 August 2019 20: 30
    uh, wait for a rebuttal from Koptsov? or in the opposite direction it does not work, subordination?
  10. 0
    12 August 2019 20: 50
    In the years of WWI, the French were leaders in terms of the most modern aircraft engines at that time. And during the years of WWII, the French produced more than 80 thousand aircraft engines: about as many as the Germans and the British combined. And even at the beginning of the 30's, the French were among the leaders in this matter, but then quickly fell behind.
  11. +4
    12 August 2019 21: 21
    The author forgot the Finnish carrots solnog! That is a werewolf! Nemtsi handed over to the finals the m-105a engines captured in 1941. The plane stopped but production again dragged on wildly
  12. +4
    13 August 2019 06: 40
    By September 1939, when Germany attacked France,
    And what number if not a secret? It seems that all historians write about the fact that
    On September 3, the United Kingdom and France, allied with Poland by Poland, declared war on Germany, but they did not launch hostilities and did not render assistance to Poland.
    It turns out, formally, that France attacked Germany, declaring war on it ...
    1. +2
      13 August 2019 12: 40
      Probably the author, in his usual manner, uncritical of ... everything, had in mind the physical beginning of hostilities.
  13. +1
    13 August 2019 10: 07
    In addition, MS.406 ended up in the Turkish, Finnish and Bulgarian Air Force.


    I do not recall such aircraft in the Bulgarian Air Force. Devuatin - yes, MS.406 - I do not know.
  14. +1
    13 August 2019 10: 20
    According to Brindley, John. F. French Fighters of World War Two. Windsor, UK: Hylton Lacy Publishers Ltd., 1971. p. 47. ISBN 1850640156. 20 pieces were delivered to Bulgaria. But most likely this reflects the fact of delivery negotiations. In fact, they didn’t deliver anything. Received 96 of the 120 agreed Devatoins.
  15. +3
    13 August 2019 12: 39
    By the way, they tried to buy M-100A motors in the USSR, which were just “Spanish-Suisas”, licensed, but the Russians turned their fingers around their temple and did not sell the motors.

    Kotelnikov wrote that the French probably wanted the M-103A with its 1000 hp. takeoff power.
    Perhaps it was the M-103A that the French military had in mind when in May 1939 they asked the Soviet government about the possibility of supplying Hispano engines.
    1. 0
      13 August 2019 14: 53
      Here it is necessary to decide if the M-100A, then according to - (http: //xn--80aafy5bs.xn--p1ai/aviamuseum/dvigateli-i-vooruzhenie/aviamotorostroenie/aviamotory-sssr/porshnevye-i-dizelnynye/porshnevoj-aviats -dvigatel-m-100-hispano-suiza-12ybbrs /) no more than 960 hp, but M-103A - 1000 hp and the year of launch in production 1937 ...
  16. +1
    14 August 2019 11: 09
    Quote: Graz
    I would not say that the French pre-war army was inferior to England, if we take the land part without a fleet

    here is a moot point.
    in the armored forces of the British tactics and org were much more perfect. structures, the French had formally superior quality in tanks, but the British still produced more practical cars. On the other hand, the VET in the army of England was no good at all, and the French was adequate in 40. In my opinion, the French were much better with the size of the army and the supply of equipment, while the British were better with the doctrine and technological quality. But this is understandable - the British were building a fleet, not an army.
  17. 0
    16 September 2019 13: 34
    The good thing is that he prepared the French pilots to choose the Yak aircraft.