Military Review

TMZ-53. All-wheel drive motorcycle that didn’t reach the battlefield

63
The motorcycle M-72, which was mass-produced and mass-produced in the Soviet Union from 1941 to 1960 a year, is rightly and deservedly the main worker of the Great Patriotic War among motorcycles. The motorcycle was originally created for the needs of the army, so for a long time it was unavailable in civilian sale. Moreover, already during the years of the Great Patriotic War in the USSR, attempts were made to create a more powerful motorcycle, including a wheelchair-driven drive, like the German counterparts. One of the motorcycles created in Tyumen during the war years was the all-wheel drive TMZ-53, which was released in the amount of two prototypes.


TMZ-53. All-wheel drive motorcycle that didn’t reach the battlefield

M-72 motorcycles go to the front


A distinctive feature of the motorcycle was a wheelchair drive. The Germans spied on this feature, and decided to implement it on new Soviet motorcycles. In the conditions of domestic off-road all-wheel drive was not an unnecessary solution. Unfortunately, TMZ-53, despite the prospects of development, turned out to be very difficult to manufacture, it was not possible to master its production in wartime conditions, and the motorcycle never went into mass production. It is all the more surprising that of the two prototypes released to this day, at least one has survived, which today can be seen in the collection of the Polytechnic Museum in Moscow.

The situation with the production of motorcycles in the USSR


By the time the Great Patriotic War began, the motorcycle fleet in the Soviet Union remained small, only four 7 motorcycle models were mass-produced at four motorcycle plants: Izhevsk produced Iz-7, 8 and 9, in Leningrad L-300 and L-8, in Podolsk PM -750, in Taganrog TIZ-AM-600. Moreover, all of these motorcycles were civilian models, they were not adapted for the war. By their power and operational indicators, as well as throughput, the listed models did not meet the requirements of the Red Army and were not very suitable for manning motorcycle parts.

Moreover, until the 1932 year of serial production of motorcycles in the USSR, it simply simply did not exist, and in all from 1932 to 1941, about 60 thousand motorcycles were produced in the Soviet Union. The most popular production models were IZH-7, IZH-8, IZH-9 and L-300 motorcycles, which were copies of the German DKW motorcycle model "Luxus 300" of the late 1920's. At the same time, the only motorcycle with a sidecar was AM-600, which was produced at the Taganrog Tool Plant (TIZ). This model was equipped with a four-stroke engine with a power of only 16 hp. Another motorcycle with a sidecar PMZ-A-750 was stopped being produced in Podolsk before the start of the war in 1939. Thus, in the pre-war USSR, army models of motorcycles were virtually absent; the Soviet Union was forced to meet the invasion of 22 on June 1941 with the existing fleet of motor vehicles.


Fighters of the Red Army on a motorcycle TIZ AM-600


The third five-year plan (1938-1942 years), when it was planned to get to the mark of 11 of thousands of motorcycles produced per year, was to be hit in terms of the production of motorcycles for the country's factories. At the same time, Izhevsk IZH-9, which received a new 4-stroke engine, was to become the flagship model. The motorcycle was useful for communications and reconnaissance, but it was still not suitable for the role of the main army model, since it was not originally designed for the installation of a stroller.

At the same time, at the beginning of 1940, a decision was made to create motorcycle parts, the states, the composition of weapons and equipment of which were developed by the Main Armored Directorate of the Red Army. Then, in the first half of the year, 15 motorcycles of various classes were tested, which were designed to identify the most reliable and hardy model. The trials were won by the German motorcycle BMW R71, which by that time was already in service with the Wehrmacht and successfully established itself during military campaigns. Especially for testing and further copying, five BMW R71 motorcycles were anonymously purchased in Sweden. The role was also played by the fact that the specialized design bureau for heavy motorcycle construction, created on the basis of the Iskra Moscow experimental plant, was headed by N.P. Serdyukov, who had an internship at the BMW factory from 1935 to 1940 for a year. In the Soviet Union, a copy of a German motorcycle was designated M-72 and under that name the car went into series, becoming the main Soviet army motorcycle during the Great Patriotic War.

At the same time, by the beginning of the war it was not possible to launch a new model in a series. Only two months after the start of the Great Patriotic War, the Moscow and Kharkov motorcycle plants managed to establish the production of the M-72 motorcycle, while the release did not satisfy the needs of the Red Army, and the catastrophic situation at the front, which required the evacuation of enterprises, did not improve the pace of production. So the head Moscow plant for the production of M-72 in November 1941 of the year was hastily evacuated to Irbit, until that time they had managed to produce all 2412 M-72 motorcycles at MMZ. The situation was complicated by the fact that the cooperation between the enterprises for the production of a new motorcycle model that had developed before the war was seriously violated.


TMZ-53 at the Polytechnic Museum


In the 1942 year, they managed to establish the production of M-72 in Irbit at the new IrbMZ plant, as well as in Gorky (GMZ), where they assembled 1587 and 1284 motorcycles respectively, this was still extremely small, since according to the plan the production of motorcycles was supposed to be 11 thousand units. At the same time, in Tyumen, where TIZ was evacuated, they were not able to master the production of M-72 at all, releasing only 187 AM-600 motorcycles, mainly from spare parts and motorcycles that were still incomplete in Taganrog. The only year of the war, when the Soviet factories practically managed to fulfill the plan for the production of M-72 motorcycles, was the 1944 year, when 5380 M-72 (90 percent of the plan) was collected in Irbit and Gorky.

Creation of all-wheel drive motorcycle TMZ-53


At the end of November 1941, the evacuated Taganrog Tool Plant arrived in Tyumen, located on the territory of the Tyumen brewery. For the entire 1942 year, the company, which experienced personnel shortages and a lack of machinery, was able to transfer only 187 AM-600 motorcycles to the military. They could not establish the serial production of M-72 in Tyumen at the new Tyumen Motor Plant (TMZ). Despite this, it was in Tyumen that an attempt was made to create a domestic all-wheel drive motorcycle. The TMZ-53 model, developed by the plant’s specialists in the 1942 year, has become a bright page in stories enterprises. The motorcycle itself was a response to numerous German counterparts with wheel-drive, which Soviet troops encountered at the front.

An experimental heavy-duty off-road motorcycle was developed in Tyumen under the guidance of designer Y. V. Kagan. The car could be called an all-terrain motorcycle. Judging by the surviving sample, in addition to the drive on the wheel of the stroller, the TMZ-53 also received large-diameter wheels with a developed off-road tread. The new motorcycle was maximally unified with the M-72 model, which seemed to be a logical and correct decision. Like its predecessor, it was equipped with a boxer engine. Opposed arrangement of cylinders (opposite each other) provided the motorcycle with a low center of gravity and excellent cooling of the engine by oncoming air flows. Like the M-72, the new model easily transported three fighters with small arms, and thanks to the presence of all-wheel drive, patency on all types of roads only increased.


Four-wheel drive motorcycle TMZ-53


At the same time, the two-cylinder four-stroke opposed air-cooled engine was boosted, its volume increased to 1000 cubic centimeters (M-72 746 “cubes”), and engine power increased to 28 hp at a crankshaft speed of 4800 rpm This engine was enough to provide the TMZ-53 with a maximum speed of 90 km / h.

The main distinguishing feature of the motorcycle was the drive to the wheel of the stroller (the wheel was sprung). Also in the transmission of the new motorcycle, in addition to the 4-speed gearbox and cardan drive, a reverse gear and a multiplier appeared. The differential of the rear axle on the novelty from Tyumen could be blocked. The TMZ-53 all-wheel drive motorcycle ignition system housed a two-spark magneto. The wheels of the new motorcycle had a dimension of 6x16 inches, which provided the motorcycle with good ground clearance - 180 mm.

The new all-wheel drive motorcycle TMZ-53 was tested together with German motorcycles BMW R-75 and Zundapp KS-750, there were enough such trophies in the Red Army. The tests took place in summer and winter, including in difficult road conditions. In terms of dynamics, these motorcycles were equivalent, and on the roads, the model designed in Tyumen showed even better results, especially at elevations of more than 26 degrees. Lost TMZ-53 only the famous "Tsundapu" - in terms of efficiency and power reserve, a smaller gas tank was installed on the model. The tests showed that the all-wheel drive motorcycle TMZ-53 could be used to tow the 45-mm gun, and in some conditions it could even pull the 76-mm artillery system.


TMZ-53 at the Polytechnic Museum


Specially for the new motorcycle, a variant of the stroller was developed with the possibility of installing an 7,62-mm DS-39 machine gun. Also, designers presented a variant with a flamethrower - a flamethrower stroller (OM). These developments were waiting for the same fate as the TMZ-53 motorcycle itself, which, despite good test results, did not go into mass production. To establish its production in Tyumen, where they could not cope with the production of M-72, would be problematic, and to start production at other plants that could not cope with the plans for the production of M-72 was also not the best solution in war conditions. In addition, at the beginning of 1944, the plant was forced to relocate again, now to Gorky. Another attempt to create an all-wheel drive motorcycle during the war was the M-73 model, the first tests of which took place in the 1944 year. This model also did not go into series. According to the commission, the increase in complexity and cost of production made the new motorcycle unprofitable, and the all-wheel drive motorcycle had no serious advantages over the serial M-72.
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  1. bistrov.
    bistrov. 10 August 2019 06: 35
    +2
    In the climatic conditions of Russia, a motorcycle is generally a risky vehicle.
    1. YOUR
      YOUR 10 August 2019 06: 57
      +4
      Nevertheless, during the Second World War they were used year-round.
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 10 August 2019 06: 58
      +8
      Quote: bistrov.
      In the climatic conditions of Russia, a motorcycle is generally a risky vehicle.

      Yeah! Based on your logic - in the conditions of our roads it is best to "ride" on a tank !!! laughing
      Alas, the teleport has not yet been invented and I think with his invention, there will remain people keen on two-wheeled horses, speed, impassability, or the entourage of a motorcycle!
      Regards, Kote!
      1. Narak-zempo
        Narak-zempo 10 August 2019 09: 39
        -2
        Some of you would ask, why do Ivan and Boris ride a tank? I'll answer you. The matter is that Russia is not just a big village. You may easily buy here a very good car as Lexus or BMW for example. But in any way you must buy a tank to transport your expensive car in the Russian roads. People who do not pay attention to this advice rarely reach a needed destination.

        (Spirtovka. “The stolen vodka”)

        https://youtu.be/nWZJsVXhl_I?t=170
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 10 August 2019 16: 39
        +6
        I shake my paw: it is well said: "there will remain people who are carried away by two-wheeled horses." As a child I saw a BMW motorcycle produced in 1941. In our village there lived a man who was just a fan of motorcycles. He had a "hybrid": the frame, the wheels, the gas tank, the stroller were German, and the engine, in my opinion, was "all over the world." How it sparkled: definitely new. His neighbor had a new one: "Jupiter 3", and in appearance you cannot say that it is a "German" of the war years.
        Then I gave a damn about it, but now I think: how much labor and money was spent on the "German"! What is easier to buy a new one, but then there were: "kovrovtsy", "macaques" (M-106), "Dnepr", "Java".
        Comrades, who remembers: was the motorcycle K, or am I confusing?
        1. Mooh
          Mooh 10 August 2019 22: 05
          +1
          Quote: vladcub
          was the motorcycle K, or am I confused?

          Even 2. K-1 Kovrovets and K-750 opposites. The second video with his participation. There really is a specific sense of humor;
          1. The popuas
            The popuas 29 September 2019 09: 04
            0
            A friend has a new engine from K-750 .... a motorcycle beast good
    3. Mooh
      Mooh 10 August 2019 07: 52
      -2
      In the climatic conditions of Russia, movement is generally a risky process.

      Not everyone will understand the second video, specific humor.
    4. andrewkor
      andrewkor 10 August 2019 07: 58
      +1
      Yes, you go to the appropriate branch on YouTube, a lot of surprising things!
    5. Amurets
      Amurets 10 August 2019 08: 18
      +6
      Quote: bistrov.
      In the climatic conditions of Russia, a motorcycle is generally a risky vehicle.

      And what can you tell me that I saw with my own eyes how they ride motorcycles in the 2000s, in the remote villages of the Far East, and in the 80s of the 5th century, in November-December I myself went on an IZH-UXNUMX motorcycle for winter fishing.
      1. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 10 August 2019 11: 31
        +6
        Quote: Amurets
        In the climatic conditions of Russia, a motorcycle is generally a risky vehicle.

        The best means of transportation. In the 60s, in the Somolensk and Kalinin regions, where the roads "Do you remember Alyosha, the roads of Smolensk ..." motorcycles "Minsk", "Kavrovets, IZh were the main means of transportation along with" KPT-4 ".
    6. svp67
      svp67 10 August 2019 08: 39
      +7
      Quote: bistrov.
      In the climatic conditions of Russia, a motorcycle is generally a risky vehicle.

      Not at all ... Somehow they ride on "quadrics" and now they ride ALL YEARLY. In many ways, the cars of those years were even worse. On the other hand, in those conditions, it was an excellent vehicle for the same scouts.
      Thus, in the pre-war USSR, army models of motorcycles were virtually absent; the Soviet Union was forced to meet the invasion of 22 on June 1941 with the existing fleet of motor vehicles.
      And an amazing thing, but the Germans note a very high percentage of motorcycles in parts of the Red Army in the first months of the war
      1. Saxahorse
        Saxahorse 10 August 2019 19: 40
        0
        Have you tried riding a motorcycle in winter? Even with a stroller .. Slippery !!! The thrust of the same Urals is not symmetrical, it drags it sideways in the summer and in winter on the ice in general a circus and not a ride.

        Quad in this sense is much calmer.
        1. svp67
          svp67 10 August 2019 19: 41
          +1
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Have you tried riding a motorcycle in winter? Even with a stroller .. Slippery !!! The thrust of the same Urals is not symmetrical, it drags it sideways in the summer and in winter on the ice in general a circus and not a ride.

          Yes, there is experience. Nevertheless, they rode on what was ...
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 10 August 2019 20: 02
            0
            Quote: svp67
            Yes, there is experience. Nevertheless, they rode on what was ...

            Yeah, I remember. My grandfather had virtuos :) But at the same time, at the same power, Zaporozhets was much more convenient.
        2. Yuriy_999
          Yuriy_999 10 August 2019 22: 07
          +2
          You won’t believe it, but driving a motorcycle with a sidecar on hard ice is easier than driving a car. Weight and direct control are triggered. There is experience. While there was no car, he rode motorcycles all year round. By the way, try loading 12 full-size bags of corn into the car :). And in Izh with a stroller easily.
          1. Dmitry_24rus
            Dmitry_24rus 11 August 2019 20: 35
            +2
            Corn was often transported in bags of 12 per bag in the winter. On a motorcycle? ..
            1. Dmitry_24rus
              Dmitry_24rus 11 August 2019 20: 37
              +1
              It is possible to transport more than 12 bags of charcoal to any passenger car accurately
            2. Yuriy_999
              Yuriy_999 11 August 2019 20: 40
              +1
              Do you know the word "bunch"? In the "saints" of the 90s, not everyone lived well. And I had to ride a motorcycle all year round.
          2. Okolotochny
            Okolotochny 20 August 2019 00: 23
            -1
            Corn from the fields probably was transported at night?
            1. Yuriy_999
              Yuriy_999 20 August 2019 06: 50
              -1
              No. "Digging" is when it is assembled after the combine. Then the combines were not perfect, and quite a lot of them remained after them.
              1. Okolotochny
                Okolotochny 20 August 2019 12: 34
                -1
                Got it. Yes, now too much remains, even with modern John Deeres and Klaasah.
        3. Amurets
          Amurets 10 August 2019 23: 41
          0
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Have you tried riding a motorcycle in winter? Even with a stroller .. Slippery !!! The thrust of the same Urals is not symmetrical, it drags it sideways in the summer and in winter on the ice in general a circus and not a ride.

          What pulls to the side, it was necessary to correctly regulate the traction of the stroller. Izhaki with a stroller also pulled to the side, on ice, yes, I agree. And they prepared motorcycles in the winter, I'm not talking about the usual MOT. They removed the glass from the stroller and put the windshield removed for the summer, and the spare tire was with cross tires. It should have been optional as a complete set, but in fact, even if ordered, it rarely came.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 11 August 2019 15: 18
            +2
            "Off-road" in the Urals broke the rear axle. As far as I remember, they drove her with a spare. They set it when they met it completely.
            In winter, I drove rubber with a checker in the Urals - fine. The last year (1998) in the winter I went on a Tourist with a pendulum suspension and a wheelchair drive. Gorgeous, the only thing to turn on the stroller was to be even more careful!
            Regards, Kote!
            1. Amurets
              Amurets 11 August 2019 23: 27
              +1
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              "Off-road" in the Urals broke the rear axle. As far as I remember, they drove her with a spare. They set it when they met it completely.
              On IZh the same thing. I had to look for a chain he cross Chezet
        4. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 16 August 2019 19: 43
          +1
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Have you tried riding a motorcycle in winter? Even with a stroller .. Slippery !!! The thrust of the same Urals is not symmetrical, it drags it sideways in the summer and in winter on the ice in general a circus and not a ride.

          Quad in this sense is much calmer.

          In order not to "pull to the side", the motorcycle must be deflected from the sidecar by 2 *.
          I still have K-750M alive. This is an upgraded version of the M-72. The motorcycle has no equal. Hunting, fishing, mushrooms, etc., there is no better technique for this. The low-speed engine at 26 l / s gives a high cross-country ability. He started from the tug "Moskvich-410", pulled out the "kopeck" stuck in the sand.
          The only drawback is the gearbox. But, I put a box from MT-10 on my "cacique" and no problem. And MT-10 is a high-speed headache. Therefore, we installed the engine from the K-750 on the MT-12, which has a drive to the sidecar wheel.
      2. Potter
        Potter 11 August 2019 22: 20
        +2
        Opening E. Driga, "Mechanized Corps of the Red Army in Battle". Even the most equipped mechanized corps of the 1st wave (from MK1 to MK8) had a maximum of 80-100 motorcycles in a division with 300 in the state.
        In general, motorcycles were 10% of the state. Many MCPs were "foot" regiments with no motorcycles at all.
  2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 10 August 2019 07: 05
    +7
    . Moreover, until 1932, serial production of motorcycles in the USSR simply did not exist

    Alas, it’s not sad today in Russia either .... I recently visited the site of the Irbitsky motorcycle plant. In the product line, all motorcycles are hand-assembled (like Rolls-Royces, some), respectively, the price is in the region of 400-600 thousand rubles! And among the famous models of the M-72! Which can be ordered in a military kit !!! By the way, 90% of motorcycles are exported!
    Regards, Kote!
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 11 August 2019 15: 02
      +2
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      price in the region of 400-600 thousand rubles!

      Yeah, and seen a million rubles. What is left of our motorcycle there? Unless the stroller, on which a shovel was attached. Tom Cruise rides this, cheers!
  3. andrewkor
    andrewkor 10 August 2019 07: 57
    +3
    My childhood friend began his career as a motorist with a Vyatka scooter, then a Ural motorcycle, a VAZ, a Volga, everything was used, and I couldn’t do without a motorcycle! And there are a lot of examples from the past.
    Now it’s probably different, even in the countryside?
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 10 August 2019 10: 08
      +2
      I myself began the “career” of a motorist with “Ural” and today I regret that I did not receive the category “A”!
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 10 August 2019 16: 48
      +3
      We saw some "Chinese" new, and more cars.
      And a former classmate told that there are still motorcycles in the village, but used: Izh-sport, "Ural" only in a state
  4. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 10 August 2019 08: 22
    +2
    Almost an ATV.
  5. Clueless
    Clueless 10 August 2019 12: 01
    +3
    3i wheels, 2a drive .. but the author calls it all-wheel drive .. :)
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 10 August 2019 13: 31
      +3
      The terminology of those years in relation to motorcycles. If it’s right, then “with a wheelchair drive”!
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 10 August 2019 16: 50
        +3
        Thank you did not know this
  6. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 10 August 2019 19: 45
    0
    The article is excellent, the author found an old but interesting topic. Thank you to the author for that! :)

    But motorcycles, as vehicles for the conditions of Russia, are worthless. Not symmetrical traction, an open case, all this creates a bunch of problems. Moreover, the engine power for a motorcycle with a sidecar is excessive! With the same power, it’s easy to create a small four-wheeled car that can carry one more person (and a bunch of cargo) more. The same German Kubelvagen with a motorcycle engine is an example of this.
    1. Mooh
      Mooh 10 August 2019 22: 01
      +1
      There were such people were called invalids. SZA, SZD. The rubbish is still that. Zaporozhets - a limousine on their background.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 11 August 2019 14: 57
        +1
        Quote: MooH
        The rubbish is still that.

        Do not tell. They were given free of charge to people with disabilities.
  7. Red_Baron
    Red_Baron 11 August 2019 14: 11
    +2
    I apologize, but if anyone does not understand the charm of a motorcycle, and even with a stroller in our open spaces, this is purely his problems and narrow views. Only a stroller is needed not so. I saw how animals and hay and cargo were transported on improvised animals.
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 11 August 2019 19: 54
      0
      Quote: Red_Baron
      I saw how animals and hay and cargo were transported on improvised animals.

      There were no pickups and they drove what they had to. Once they drove on donkeys. In Russia, a motorcycle is extremely uncomfortable.
      1. Red_Baron
        Red_Baron 11 August 2019 20: 27
        +4
        Than? The motorcycle is lightweight, cheap, consumes little fuel. It is extremely convenient. And when it’s absolutely trouble with the roads, his brother will help - quadra.
        Quote: Saxahorse
        There were no pickups and they drove what they had to.

        A pickup costs 4-5 times the size of a motorcycle. You can’t drag him aside and you won’t push him away from a broken track.
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 11 August 2019 21: 56
          0
          Quote: Red_Baron
          Than? The motorcycle is lightweight, cheap, consumes little fuel. It is extremely convenient.

          Is it convenient? Is it winter then? Your assessment is too speculative. Everything is exactly set. I can only repeat that a motorcycle in Russia is extremely uncomfortable.
          1. Red_Baron
            Red_Baron 11 August 2019 22: 01
            +1
            Quote: Saxahorse
            Your assessment is too speculative. Everything is exactly set.

            Oh how.
            Quote: Red_Baron
            The motorcycle is lightweight, cheap, consumes little fuel.

            That is, it is speculative through chur. Actually the motorcycle is heavy, expensive, eating more fuel than a pickup? Are you seriously?
            Quote: Saxahorse
            Is it winter then?

            And we only have winter? As you saw, that a little enchantingly stated, you start to come up with conditions. Now I’ll say something, but yours will go further. Like, but he can’t fly, doesn’t give milk and is not seasoned with hay?
            1. Saxahorse
              Saxahorse 11 August 2019 22: 03
              0
              Quote: Red_Baron
              And we only have winter?

              Yes !!! Where do you live in general? We do not have France here, winter begins in October and ends in May.
              1. Red_Baron
                Red_Baron 11 August 2019 22: 06
                +1
                And beyond the Arctic Circle does not end at all. What did you get there with the motorcycle?
                Quote: Saxahorse
                We do not have France here, winter begins in October and ends in May.

                Where do you have it?
                We do not have the Arctic here, sometimes even in March you can ride perfectly. And sometimes in January there is no snow.
                I can ride a bicycle all year round. I'm in the Moscow area.
              2. Potter
                Potter 11 August 2019 22: 09
                +2
                In Yakutia, which is familiar to me from the construction of the AYaM, that is exactly so. But in central Russia, where 70% of the country's population lives, from December to March. But there is also Krasnodar and Rostov, and SevKav.
                1. Saxahorse
                  Saxahorse 11 August 2019 22: 17
                  -1
                  Quote: Potter
                  But in central Russia, where 70% of the country's population lives, from December to March.

                  Just in the middle lane, snow falls in late October and melts by the end of April. Do not believe me - google the start and end of frost in central Russia. wink
                  1. Red_Baron
                    Red_Baron 11 August 2019 22: 24
                    +1
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    Do not believe me - google the start and end of frost in central Russia.

                    And why do you believe if you compose on the go. There are people from all over the country. Everyone has friends. What other frosts. With frost, is it impossible to ride? I thought the snow bothers you, but it turns out to be complexes.

                    But how did you use donkeys there? Or did you lie there too?
                    1. Saxahorse
                      Saxahorse 11 August 2019 22: 29
                      -1
                      I don’t even know how to argue about such things ..

                      RIAMO - Sep 28 2018 In Moscow, on the night of Saturday to Sunday, the temperature will drop to zero, the first frosts in the capital will pass, as they should, on September 30, the average long-term date of this weather phenomenon, said the leading specialist of the Phobos weather center Evgeny Tishkovets.


                      Tell me honestly, go from Jerusalem and write ?? laughing
                      1. Red_Baron
                        Red_Baron 11 August 2019 22: 42
                        0
                        Tell me honestly, why do you write nonsense and then move out of topic? Is it so fashionable now? And, I understand, I understand that you have anti-Semitism in fashion.
                        Where did I write above, and where do your donkeys not start when they are frozen?
                      2. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 11 August 2019 22: 45
                        -1
                        Quote: Red_Baron
                        where do you have donkeys when they freeze?

                        I don’t know how it is with donkeys, but frost means ice. And riding on ice on a motorcycle is pure murder.

                        You are talking about the "convenience" of motorcycles in Russia, so you assumed that you yourself rarely visited Moscow, otherwise the weather conditions would not be confused with Beijing or France ..
                      3. Red_Baron
                        Red_Baron 11 August 2019 22: 48
                        +1
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        You are talking about the "convenience" of motorcycles in Russia

                        I’ll tell you a secret, we have millions of car owners. You probably rarely visit Russia.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        So I suggested that you yourself were not often in Moscow, otherwise the weather conditions would not be confused with Beijing or France ..

                        Well, you didn’t guess from a great mind. I already wrote that with a little observance of the conditions I ride a bicycle all year round. Even inexpensive hydraulic actuators in plastic work perfectly below -15.

                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        I don’t know how it is with donkeys, but frost means ice. And riding on ice on a motorcycle is pure murder.
                        There was just a discussion above about this. Something you screwed off when people talked about their experiences.
                        "In the winter in the Urals, I rode rubber with a checkerboard - normal. Last year (1998) in winter I rode a Tourist with a pendulum suspension and a drive to a wheelchair. Gorgeous, only the wheelchair had to be turned even more carefully!"
                        "Believe it or not, driving a motorcycle with a sidecar on hard ice is easier than driving a car. Weight and direct dependence of control work. I have experience. Before I had a car, I rode motorcycles all year round. By the way, try loading 12 full-size sacks of corn into the car: And in Izh with a stroller easily. "
                        You know, I believe these people who actually exploited in winter conditions and share their experience than your theory and skepticism.
                      4. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 11 August 2019 22: 55
                        0
                        Quote: Red_Baron
                        I’ll tell you a secret, we have millions of car owners. You probably rarely visit Russia.

                        But who argues! Last month, only a colleague was buried. Also was the car owner of the red Suzuki ..

                        Looks like you forgot what the conversation is about. I want to remind you that any four-wheeled transport in Russia is much more practical and convenient than a motorcycle. Tricycles, as a cheap alternative to a car, appeared in France and Germany. Yes, yes, the peasants could travel almost all year round, although not very comfortably. In Russia, with its sharply continental climate, this is a bad idea. Count the machine for six months.
                      5. Red_Baron
                        Red_Baron 11 August 2019 23: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Looks like you forgot what the conversation is about.

                        By no means.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        I want to remind you that any four-wheeled transport in Russia is much more practical and convenient than a motorcycle.

                        And much more expensive. Moreover, not every four-wheel can replace a three-wheeled motorcycle. More convenient, yes.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        In Russia, with its sharply continental climate, this is a bad idea. Count the machine for six months.

                        No, not only me wrote to you. In the central part and in the southern regions, where the vast majority of car owners are located, this period is much shorter. And someone goes in the winter.

                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        But who argues! Last month, only a colleague was buried. Also was the car owner of the red Suzuki ..

                        From the flu dies in the country several thousand people a year. Imagine without any motorcycles.
                      6. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 12 August 2019 00: 59
                        0
                        Quote: Red_Baron
                        And much more expensive. Moreover, not every four-wheel can replace a three-wheeled motorcycle. More convenient, yes.

                        Most of the price of a car is the engine and transmission. The body is worth a penny. In the United States, the climate is much milder than the Russian one, however, motorcycles with a sidecar were always exotic there, but pickups appeared before WWII.

                        The Russian enthusiasm for tricycles is an uncritical copy of the German experience. Four-wheel cars are more convenient and practical in all respects.
                      7. Red_Baron
                        Red_Baron 12 August 2019 01: 53
                        +1
                        No.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        The body is worth a penny.

                        Of course not. The body is starting from the work of designers, ending with the largest production lines, volumes, weight and invested labor. And also the body is an element of making changes to spur sales of the "new model", and the base can be generally one for several models, both of the parent company and its subsidiaries.
  • Red_Baron
    Red_Baron 11 August 2019 22: 02
    0
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Once they drove on donkeys.

    Another unexpected moment. same in winter? You should at least learn something about donkeys. What climate can they live in and why.
  • Vasily Patrin
    Vasily Patrin 11 August 2019 14: 49
    -1
    Now there is no war, and THIENS ruling, killed AT ALL motorcycle factories. But how many TOTALs were produced in the UNION ?? !!!!
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 11 August 2019 14: 55
      +1
      Quote: Vasily Patrin
      But how much TOTAL was produced in the UNION ?? !!!!

      Uh ... I once wanted to buy IZH-Planet-Sport, but I managed cheap Minsk ... crying
    2. Red_Baron
      Red_Baron 11 August 2019 20: 24
      +3
      And there were wonderful wooden skis, now you will not find them in stores in the afternoon with fire. Where the country is heading.
    3. Potter
      Potter 11 August 2019 22: 11
      +1
      But who will make people buy what was produced at these plants? But Irbit somehow works, counting on bikers.
  • Vanek
    Vanek 12 September 2019 11: 37
    0
    Four-wheel drive...

    And where is the front wheel drive?