Combat aircraft. Best Japanese, but not Zero?

Of course, ask anyone today which plane was the best in Japan during the Second World War, a mighty roar will be heard in response: “Zero !!!”

And some “specialists” and “experts” also persistently shove the A6M into all charts, regardless of who are the neighbors of the deck: fighter-bomber, deck, escort ...

But was the A6M0 and its modifications really good? Or maybe there was something better?

I believe that was. Not immediately, of course, with the course of the war. But before that I would like to say a few words about Zero.

I will not argue with those who believe that it was an outstanding car. This is really controversial, but there were already dismantling decks, the opinion remained in the same place. A6M was more than a kind of machine, so ...

So I’ll just invite you to sit in his cockpit and, in the company of such strange brothers, go towards the “Cats” and “Corsarams” from the American aircraft carriers.

You have no armor. At all. Any line from a rifle caliber machine gun to the side or rear projection - and you have problems. I am simply silent about bullets of heavy machine guns and air guns. With them, it’s even more humane immediately to the next world, without suffering.

You can hide behind only the engine in the front hemisphere, and even then conditionally. The Kinsey that you have is a copy of the Pratt-Whitney R-9 X-NUMX single-row air vent from the pre-war Hornet. With a two-row air vent it would be more reliable, but, as they say, we have what we have.

True, unlike a fellow water cooling, an air vent can give you a chance. And do not die from one or two bullets. Or maybe not.

But even if you didn’t get hit, the bullets passed, you were lucky, you should not relax. Tanks with gasoline and oil are another problem. They also have no armor. Tanks are not designed and are not filled with exhaust gases.

In general, the dream is a pyromaniac, not a plane. They will not kill, they will burn it. What to do, such is the pay for maneuverability, both horizontally and vertically. And what if the “Kinsey” from “Mitsubishi” (and “Sakai” from “Nakajima”) gave at the beginning of the war no more than 1000 hp

So the Zero had maneuverability, altitude, range and more or less decent weapons, but it was paid very dearly: with the lives of the pilots. And as soon as the pilots trained before the war began to beat out over the course of the war, things on the air front went not very beautifully.

In principle, the situation painfully recalls what I was talking about when I carefully examined the Me-109 and FW-190. And the Japanese were faced with a difficult choice - either to finally make a plane according to the European or American model, or to end up without the Air Force at all, since there will be no pilots for the planes.

Well, what if the Bushido code was unfamiliar to Americans, British and Australians, and they did not want to go ahead with cannons and machine guns, preferring to bombard enemy fighters with bullets? Fortunately, there wasn’t much to do at all.

So, "Hayat." Fighter Nakajima Ki-84.

I must say right away that the Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien will have the same review, but alas, the Japanese could not make a liquid-cooled engine. Daimler-Benz DB 601A - the engine is simply magnificent, and the Germans did everything for the Japanese to be able to produce it in their factories, but, alas, the "Japanese" Messerschmitt "did not take off. More precisely, of course, he took off and fought, but alas, his name does not turn out to be successful.

So Nakajima, in principle, won the competition for such an obvious advantage. And the aircraft in question was a kind of compromise between the predecessors of the Ki-43 Hayabusa and the Ki-44 Shoki. In general, “Hayata” was supposed to replace both aircraft, and the requirements for its performance characteristics provided for this.

On the one hand, the 84 should have maneuverability no worse (well, or not much worse) than the Ki-43, but surpass the Ki-44. And here everything is clear, “Hayabusa” is a pure fighter of gaining superiority in the air, its target was precisely enemy fighters. And “Shock” according to the Japanese classification is an interceptor of bombers.

In general, Ki-84 was originally conceived as a multi-role fighter with a large radius of action, capable of fighting both maneuverable fighters and possess sufficient firepower to destroy bombers.

The requirements provided for a maximum speed of 640-685 km / h at 5000 m, the fuel supply was supposed to allow an hour and a half to work at a distance of 400-450 km from the airfield.

Serious requirements, but in control aviation believed that the new new Nakajima Ha-18 45-cylinder radial engine rated at 2 hp able to provide the necessary power.

The armament was standard, that is, two synchronized No-103 machine guns with an 12,7-mm caliber under the hood and two No-5 cannons with an 20-mm caliber in the wings outside the circle swept by a screw.

And - lo and behold! - it was charged with providing armor protection for the pilot and equipping the vehicle with protected fuel tanks.

Work began in 1942, and at the end of 1943, the first two copies already took off.

Tests have shown that everything really worked out. And about the battle trials, it must be said that the first batches of the serial Ki-84-Ia were sent to battle to Leyte Gulf, where everything was serious and intense.

In battles, Hayat proved to be a very uncomfortable and formidable opponent. I must say that the Allied command was very puzzled by the issue of confronting the aircraft, which had very outstanding performance characteristics.

The protection of the Ki-84 compared to the standards familiar to allied pilots was simply the height of perfection. Weapon quite comparable in number, and with the quality of machine guns and guns the Japanese always had order.

An unpleasant surprise was that the Ki-84-Ia were faster and more maneuverable than all the Allied fighters, and at low and medium altitudes they were as fast as the P-51D Mustang and P-47D Thunderbolt and faster than all other Allied aircraft .

The impression was spoiled only by the fact that the prototypes and those that came out of the usual assembly shops were still different machines.

Serial Ki-84-Ia constantly suffered from defects in the fuel and hydraulic systems, frankly weak chassis struts caused some inconvenience, and Ha-45 engines rarely developed full rated power.

But the main drawback of the "Hayat" became ... the pilots! The Americans and the British, conducting tests during and after the war, noted that in the hands of an experienced pilot, the Ki-84 was a dangerous opponent. But we are talking about the events of the 1944-45 years, when it was the experienced pilots who began to disastrously end.

For 18 months of serial production, 3 473 aircraft of all modifications were built. It seems to be a little, but ... It is worth saying that almost 200 aircraft per month - this is for the Japanese industry, at the end of the war, heartily processed by American bombers, a very good indicator. I would say that they worked like real samurai.

And also modernizations were made, generally inspiring respect.

The Ki-84-Ia was followed by the Ki-84-Ib. In model “b”, the synchronized 12,7-mm machine guns were replaced by No-5 cannons with the caliber 20 mm. Thus, the armament began to consist of four 20-mm guns, two of which were synchronous, which gave a very decent level of salvo both in weight and accuracy.

But further in the series went the Ki-84-Ic model, the main task of which was the destruction of the “flying fortresses”. In this modification, the No-5 wing guns were replaced with the No-105 caliber 30 mm. Thus, the armament grew to 2x20-mm and 2x30-mm, which generally corresponded to the best indicators of the opponents.

And when the 2000-powerful Ha-45-23 engine with direct fuel injection and afterburner system, copied from the German MW-50, went into action, the speed indicators also increased to 650-670 km / h.

It was also noted the overall study of all nodes and especially the layout of the cabin. The pilot was protected by an armored head, an armored back and the visor of the lantern was made of bulletproof glass.

Progress is evident, but there was a fly in the ointment: they could not bring to mind the emergency lamp dump system, and the fire-fighting equipment remained in the pilots' dreams.

The aircraft had very good controllability, was very stable in flight, therefore it was readily used as a night interceptor. In general, the pilots loved him, because in comparison with their predecessors, it was actually a flying armored weapon platform, which made it possible to do quite a lot in combat with skillful use.

LTX Ki-84-Ia

Wingspan, m: 11,30
Length, m: 9,85
Height, m: 3.38
Wing area, м2: 21,02

Weight, kg
- empty aircraft: 2698
- normal takeoff: 3602
- Maximum takeoff: 4170

Engine Type: 1 x Ha-45-21
Power, hp: 1 x 1970
Maximum speed km / h: 687
Cruising speed, km / h: 409

Practical range, km: 2968
Fighting range, km: 1255
Max. rate of climb, m / min: 1302
Practical ceiling, m: 11582

Armament: two 20-mm guns (150 shells each), two 12,7-mm machine guns (350 cartridges for a machine gun), two 200-kg bombs.

Comments

[silverwolf88]

A very interesting fighter ... but is there any information about the battles with Soviet pilots?

[Santa Fe]

Where do they come from

Kwantung Army aircraft inactive

[Santa Fe]

The glory of the victories of Japanese aviation fell on 1941-42. The main fighter at that time was Zero - therefore, this fighter became a symbol

In the 42 year there weren’t any Corsairs, the Americans discovered a Japanese super-car with incredible maneuverability and a range of 2000 km, Zero is the undoubted leader and star of the entire initial period of the Pacific War

None of the subsequent Japanese fighter models had that separation in the performance characteristics of the Allied fighters

[Andrey Shmelev]

Good morning, I totally agree. "Zero" is an outstanding achievement of the Japanese, who, with extremely modest capabilities, created a car that shone in the initial period of the war for maintenance. In fairness, it should be noted that to a large extent, her fame was brought by useless opponents and a unique combination of factors favorable to her. Had Zero turned out to be a "hit" in Europe against "Fritz", and "gustav" and "anton" were already on the way, the halo of legend would hardly have been created. As well as against the "angry". But this does not negate the fact that in those conditions and with those capabilities Zero is the absolute maximum that could be achieved.

[yehat]

Quote: Andrey Shmelev

If Zero turned out to be a "hit" in Europe against "Fritz", and "gustav" and "anton" were already on the way, the halo of a legend would hardly have been created

any most stubborn fighter having an advantage in height becomes a problem.
Due to the long flight time and lightness, the Zero very often had the opportunity to fly a tier higher. Zero's achievement is that the Japanese have squeezed the maximum of the most important for tvd and battle tth.
Well, and still he fought at the beginning of the war, mainly against aircraft designed in the early 30s.

[Proxima]

Quote: Andrei Shmelev

"Zero" is an outstanding achievement of the Japanese, who, with extremely modest capabilities, created a car that shone in the initial period of the war for maintenance.

The Zero phenomenon is that its excellent performance characteristics are due to its low weight. And the lightness of this fighter was achieved by the fragility of the glider, as well as the lack of reservation and protective treads on gas tanks. This is what skill and courage you need to have in order to fight on such a fighter, knowing that even one bullet can be fatal for your plane! So it turns out that "Zero" ideally "lay down" under the mentality of a Japanese pilot! But then it’s worse already .. “Flying Fortresses” appeared on the front of the stage and no one's courage and skill saved Zero from the hail of large-caliber bullets that the armada of bombers spewed.

[Dooplet11]

The glory of the victories of Japanese aviation fell on 1941-42. The main fighter at that time was Zero - therefore, this fighter became a symbol

- you should add "sea"
Because Japan also had army aviation, and Japan fought aerial battles not only over the Pacific.

[tomket]

Quote: Santa Fe

In the 42 year there weren’t any Corsairs,

The first combat squadron "Corsairs" - October 1942.

Quote: Santa Fe

Americans discovered a Japanese super car with incredible maneuverability and a range of 2000 km

The Americans did not find the "Zero" super-machine, but the "Kido-butai", which owned the strategic initiative.

Quote: Santa Fe

None of the subsequent Japanese fighter models had that separation in the performance characteristics of the Allied fighters

She generally did not have any separation from the Allied aircraft. If we take all sorts of "flying fossils" like the Gloucesters "Bulldogs" and "Gladiators", then yes. But at the expense of the “Wildkets”, then there was no separation. In the counts of American pilots there is anything about improving tactics, flying, combat training, but here are the panicky cries of "Give us a new plane urgently, no. And Wildcat held out on the assembly line and on deck until the end of the war, having won the last victory. August 5. That with the total superiority of "Zero" it would simply be impossible.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: tomket

But at the expense of the “Wildkets”, then there was no separation. In the counts of American pilots there is anything about improving tactics, flying, combat training, but here are the panicky cries of "Give us an urgent new plane, no.

Nute so Tech showed that on the Wildcats it is possible and necessary to beat the Zero - even with the numerical superiority of the Japanese.
Pessimism and panic were only reported by those who flew on the Buffalo.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Santa Fe

In the 42 year there weren’t any Corsairs, the Americans discovered a Japanese super-car with incredible maneuverability and a range of 2000 km, Zero is the undoubted leader and star of the entire initial period of the Pacific War

It's not just the car. "Zero" was a leader and a star only in the hands of peacetime training pilots (those who saw the stars in the sky during the day), who also had experience in the war in China. The huge flight range due to the depletion of the mixture is just from the Chinese experience.
Another "component of legendary" is the enemy's lack of experience in confronting the "Zero", tactics of fighting them and knowledge of all the pros and cons of the machine. Here, the American patriotism (which often turns into Nazism) also played a role, penetrating into the brains of even those specialists who, by the nature of their service, had to check all possible options. But alas, all the data on "Zero" received from China before December 1941 was simply discarded as disinformation - for everyone knows that Japanese industry is capable of producing only degraded copies of mediocre European and American models of technology (this is not a banter, but intelligence). The result is well known - self-confidence and hatefulness, resulting in regular attempts to dogfight with the Zero on heavy American fighters ... with a predictable result.
With the beginning of the war, the accumulation of experience of battles with "Zero" began, which was summarized in the documents. Based on these documents, commanders like Thach began to develop battle tactics that gave the Wildcats a good chance to shoot down and survive. And then the Yankees fell into the hands of almost a whole "Zero", which they drove through the range, having tested in all possible options. The results were summed up already at the end of 1942:

All pilots dispatched to combat areas where the Zero is expected to be present should be instructed to:
1. Never attempt to engage in a dogfight with a Zero
2. Never attempt to maneuver with the Zero at speeds below three hundred (300) miles per hour on the speedometer [483 km / h], unless you are behind it.
3. Never chase the Zero vertically at low speeds.
The most important features that should be taken into account when developing successful counter tactics for the Zero are its insufficient roll rate at high speeds and its engine failures under negative overload conditions [the result of using a float carburetor and, at the same time, an explanation of the "slide effect"].
Large ailerons provide the aircraft with high maneuverability at speeds of up to three hundred (300) miles per hour on the speedometer. At speeds above three hundred (300) miles per hour on the speedometer, it becomes almost impossible to change the direction of the turn.
The Zero pivot speed from right to left is much higher than from left to right.

© midnike
As a result, by 1943, American pilots generally knew how to take advantage of the Japanese fighter's shortcomings. And the Japanese pilots of military production, who replaced the constantly knocked out pre-war aces, for the most part no longer knew how to use the advantages of "Zero" and prevent the enemy from using its shortcomings. And the legendary character of “Zero” came to naught - they learned how to shoot them down even on those same “Wildcats” that were hopelessly lost to them in 1942.

[SASHA OLD]

Quote: Alexey RA

those same stars that were daylight in the sky

it's cool, even with chopsticks for an argument they caught flies in flight
(from the memoirs of Saburo Sakai)

[Andrey Shmelev]

those same stars that were daylight in the sky

from the lessons of my childhood: the nunchucks might be terrified in the hands of Bruce Lee,
but in the hands of 99,99% on the street a hook for clothes is many times more effective
this is not because the nunchucks are bad (very cool), but because it’s easier to break into a tambourine with a crochet hook for clothes and it’s not necessary to learn this for years

and such examples are darkness, such as, if you train from 5 to 25 years old every day, then bow, otherwise shoot yourself

in general, I completely agree, Zero is a virtuoso machine

[hohol95]

Not quite she was inactive!
August 10, 1945!

A few hours later, the fleet's aircraft dealt a massive blow to Rasin, in which the six IL-2 from the 37th ShAP, led by Mr. I.F., also took part. Voronin. Only 4 Japanese fighters took off from the Henzansky air terminal. One of them was attacked by a leading attack aircraft when it left the attack on an enemy ship. The Japanese went right from above, but the air gunner A. Ivanov was on the alert and opened fire on time. “Having fired at the enemy aircraft,” he recalled, “I saw thick black smoke pouring out of his engine. The plane, leaving behind a smoky trail, fell into the sea. "I was ready to repel another attack, but I saw how the other planes ... sharply turned back and began to flee at full throttle."
But the Japanese fighters were successful in another area. At Cape Povorotny they attacked the flying boat PBN-1 "Catalina" by I.V. Frolova from the 16th ODRAP, returning after performing aerial reconnaissance. The Soviet aircraft received significant damage and made an emergency landing on the high seas. The riddled "Catalina" quickly went to the bottom and took the entire crew of six people. Apparently, it was the only Pacific Fleet Air Force aircraft lost in that campaign.

Rare aerial fights
Aviation and Time 2012 03

[bubalik]

But is there any information about the battles with Soviet pilots?

,, directly with Ki-84?
,,, and so it was of course.

[Edvid]

If the USSR had such aircraft at the beginning of the war! ...

[Andrey Shmelev]

If the USSR had such aircraft at the beginning of the war! ...

I'm looking forward to telling you exactly how Zero will kick "Friedrich";)

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Andrey Shmelev

I'm looking forward to telling you exactly how Zero will kick "Friedrich";)

Moreover, in the cockpit "Zero" there would be a standard pilot of the Red Army Air Force arr. 1941: prepared for action only during the day in simple meteorological conditions, does not know how to use radio communications, fire training - shooting at a cone at a speed of 200-250 km / h, "for at high speeds the cones come off"© Smushkevich

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Edvid

If the USSR had such aircraft at the beginning of the war! ...

That would not have changed. Without experienced pilots, normal repair and rear services, communications and target designation, it is almost impossible to butt on backlash with backlashes.

[not main]

Quote: Alexey RA

Quote: Edvid

If the USSR had such aircraft at the beginning of the war! ...

That would not have changed. Without experienced pilots, normal repair and rear services, communications and target designation, it is almost impossible to butt on backlash with backlashes.

capitulate! And our pilots fought won!

[Alexey RA]

Quote: non-primary

capitulate! And our pilots fought won!

And this has something to do with it? I just pointed out that in the 1941 situation, replacing the same LaGG-3s with Zero would not fundamentally change anything. Moreover, the losses, due to the lesser survivability of the Japanese, may even increase.

[not main]

Quote: Alexey RA

And this has something to do with it? I just pointed out that in the 1941 situation, replacing the same LaGG-3s with Zero would not fundamentally change anything. Moreover, the losses, due to the lesser survivability of the Japanese, may even increase.

I agree here. According to DPMU, then everyone used aviation mainly during the day and in "good" weather, I agree about radio communications, but the shooting is questionable, tk. there were pilots after Spain, Khalkhin Gol, "winter war", of course not so many, but there were. In general, I got a negative impression. Glad I was wrong! My apologies! Sincerely.

[Flamberg]

650-570 km / h

A typo.

[Flamberg]

So I’ll just invite you to sit in his cockpit and, in the company of such strange brothers, go towards the “Cats” and “Corsarams” from the American aircraft carriers.

Maneuver to help them

[tomket]

Quote: Flamberg

Maneuver to help them

The Americans quickly realized that the Zero had to be fought on the verticals, and from that moment there was a methodical knocking out of the Japanese flight personnel.

[Dooplet11]

But was the A6M0 and its modifications really good? Or maybe there was something better?

I believe that was. Not immediately, of course, with the course of the war.

- Was there anything better than Ford T? I believe that was. Not immediately, of course ... Thirty years later.

In the context of the headline "Combat aircraft. Best but not Zero?" in general, you can consider everything that flies and fights. After all, all this is "combat". But what about the evaluation criteria? The novel compared "horseradish to a tomato." It was fun. As always.

[Vlad.by]

Well, in this case, we remove from all ratings of WWII fighters "all sorts" Mustangs, and Spitfires of the latest series and Tempests ... They were not there by 40-41.
And our La 5, La 7, Yak 3, Yak 9 ...
Compare I16, Me109 to Dora and Zero with Harikeyn.
Great rating!

[Dooplet11]

Great rating!

And why not compare the Zero with the Mitsubishi Ki-109? Also a great rating will be. What is acidic, horseradish or tomato?

[lucul]

And what if the “Kinsay” from “Mitsubishi” (and “Sakai” from “Nakajima”) gave at the beginning of the war no more than 1000 hp

Only Britain, the USA, Germany and the USSR in the aircraft engine industry crossed the bar of 1 hp.
All other countries failed.

[Dooplet11]

France stepped over. Just in time for the start of the war. True, she was not allowed to go further. The Czechs on the basis of Hispano-Suiza also crossed the "line".

[goose]

Quote: lucul

Only Britain, the USA, Germany and the USSR ... All other countries could not

But what about Japan, Italy, the Czech Republic, France?

[Amurets]

The impression was spoiled only by the fact that the prototypes and those that came out of the usual assembly shops were still different machines.

Well, an experimental product made by highly qualified specialists is completely different from the serial one. I will not give examples, there are many of them.

[serg.shishkov2015]

* Hayat * is undoubtedly one of the best fighters, not only in Japan, but also in WW2, a quarter of a century ago in the magazine * Wings of the Motherland * there was a detailed article about him, But * Zero * was heard by everyone, maybe because the Pacific Theater the main battles were at sea with the participation of carrier-based aviation, And * Hayate *, a land fighter, somehow forgotten,

[Dooplet11]

* Hayat * certainly one of the best fighters

- Searching for the "best" is a useless exercise.
F. Lloyd in the article "Powers of maneuvre" in Aeronautics magazine in August 1943 wrote:

But for some reason, with a stubbornness worthy of better use, the "specialists" and "experts" continue to search.

[serg.shishkov2015]

I absolutely agree with you! I can name three dozen single-engine fighters of 2 MV, which I rate from 4+ to 5+, and they all have their fans and opponents! And its advantages with drawbacks!

[tomket]

Quote: serg.shishkov2015

And * Hayat *, land fighter, somehow forgotten,

Well, the Japanese had an interesting gradation. There were deck ships, there were army land and coastal interceptors, the best of which was the Siden-kai. He is also a candidate for the title of "best of the best" among the Japanese.

[serg.shishkov2015]

I agree! A * Syden-kai * in general, the case is unique - it evolved from a specially designed float fighter * Kyofu *, and it’s magnificent in terms of performance! And with graduation, the scout, known as P-97, was not armed with army men about sailors under different names - С5М and Кi.15

[paul3390]

Well - Shiden N1K1 was also a very good fighter .. And a couple more at the end of the war. The problem of the Japanese was mainly in the preparation of new pilots ..

[yehat]

Quote: Andrey Shmelev

I'm looking forward to telling you exactly how Zero will kick "Friedrich";)

elementary. the same age as Friedrich A6M-2 model 21
he will climb to the maximum height (10500) and will stupidly wait until the Messers start to run out of fuel and only then enters the battle.
Messer, to, say, move 50 km and climb to such a height, you need at least 25 minutes.
on the way back and landing another 15. left fuel 5 minutes to find the target, approach and battle
all that the zero needs is to not spoil the first attack and dodge, having some advantage in maneuverability, but lower speed.

[Dooplet11]

And will Frederick get there (10500m)? He will calmly carry out his tasks of clearing the airspace, without rising above 7000m. Yes, he already completed them, having driven Zero to 10500.

[yehat]

Quote: Dooplet11

Yes, he already completed them, having driven Zero to 10500.

you can’t do anything plainly if enemy fighters hang over you within 1-2 km.

[Dooplet11]

Huh? And what can do with Frederick Zero, hanging 2 km higher? Especially if the pilot of Friedrich sees this Zero?
A Friedrich pilot can: attack enemy bombers below 500-800m (typical elevation for attack), barrage over his bombers with a bookcase in 1000-2000m. By the way, the dive speed equal to the Mass dive speed was received only by A6М5 (http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/a6m5.html). At the same time, it accelerated longer and lost speed faster.
What can Zero, located at 2000m above? Caution, with an eye on the number M, go down to rake? For she cannot even escape.

[yehat]

there is a concrete historical example - the Kuban construction of our Air Force, which was used even in China by the I-16 and I-15. The Germans preferred not to meddle in this Kuban ladder.
You can bend your fingers as you like, but I know historical examples of applying the advantage in height - both in the flying circus of the red baron and in many other episodes.

[Dooplet11]

You can bend your fingers as you like,

- Don't be rude, not sporty!

Examples applications height advantages

- key, - "application". Is it always possible to realize a height advantage? Take a look at the primer:

Although you yourself answered:

Kuban construction of our Air Force, which was used in China by i-16 and i-15. The Germans preferred not to meddle in this Kuban ladder.

Why do you think the Japanese are dumber than the Germans?

[yehat]

do not attribute to me your nonsense.

[Dooplet11]

Is this what stupidity I attributed to you? This ?:
[quote] Barrage over your bombers in a bookcase in 1000-2000m. By the way, the dive speed equal to the Mass dive speed was received only by A6М5 (http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/a6m5.html). At the same time, it accelerated longer and lost speed faster.
What can Zero, located at 2000m above? Caution, with an eye on the number M, go down to rake? For even can not escape. [/ Quote]
So you wrote the same thing:
[quote] Kuban construction of our Air Force, which was used in China by i-16 and i-15. The Germans preferred not to meddle in this Kuban ladder. [Quote]

[Andrey Shmelev]

I will even continue a little:
and if Zero goes down to 7 tm, and there is still "Frederick" arrives - what then? ;)

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Dooplet11

What can Zero 2000m above? Caution, with an eye on the number M, go down to rake?

Here we should not forget that at speeds over 480 km / h the maneuverability of the Zero drops sharply.

Never attempt to maneuver the Zero at speeds below three hundred (300) mph on the [483 km / h] speedometer unless you are behind it.

Large ailerons provide the aircraft with high maneuverability at speeds of up to three hundred (300) miles per hour on the speedometer. At speeds above three hundred (300) miles per hour on the speedometer, it becomes almost impossible to change the direction of the turn.

© midnike

[Antares]

Zero is also just a booster plane.
I am sure that the majority of Japanese aircraft except Zero (which they see in the films) do not know.

[Oleg Zorin]

Most people tend to know little at all, not just about airplanes. Zero had many bright victories and bitter defeats. The rest of the "Japanese women" have few victories and many defeats.

[Mooh]

A rare case when I am fully in solidarity with Oleg Kaptsov. Zero against the backdrop of opponents - a masterpiece. Ki-84 against the backdrop of opponents-mediocre aircraft.
Progress in those years was unrealistically fast. Airplanes with a meager resource today became obsolete morally faster than physically.

[tomket]

Quote: MooH

A rare case when I am fully in solidarity with Oleg Kaptsov. Zero against the backdrop of opponents - a masterpiece. Ki-84 against the backdrop of opponents-mediocre aircraft.

Can you tell us what was the very masterpiece of "Zero"? Well, or what he won about the same opponent, "Veldket".

[Mooh]

Well, or what he won about the same opponent, "Veldket".

Yes, in everything, in maneuverability, armament, altitude, range. The wildcat was tenacious and accelerated a little better in diving, had no more advantages with respect to zero. And naturally he failed in aerial combat.
PSTomkat & Wildkat not tomket & Weldkat. At first I did not understand at all what Weldketa was. It looks like a fish of the salmon family.

[tomket]

Quote: MooH

Yes in everything, in maneuverability,

Then I agree.

Quote: MooH

armament

Not here, because the "Vildek" machine guns were perhaps more lethal for the "Zero" in the absence of armor than the cannon for the "Cat". And the bombers were not distinguished by outstanding protection, in general protection.

Quote: MooH

altitude

Then the grandmother said for two ....

Quote: MooH

range.

In principle, it is not very important, in view of the fact that the range was mainly dictated by the aircraft carrier, and was critical for scouts. And there mostly "Dontles" flew with a bomb.

Quote: MooH

And naturally he failed in aerial combat.

When he endured, and when he was tearing at the tail and mane.

[Mooh]

Quote: tomket

When he endured, and when he was tearing at the tail and mane.

Then they were so hastily replaced by the Helkets and transferred to attack aircraft.

[tomket]

Quote: MooH

Then they were so hastily replaced by the Helkets and transferred to attack aircraft.

Well, do you suggest all the time to fly on the plane of the Wright brothers? What a stupid argument.

[Mooh]

The normal argument. A very common practice in those years. Outdated fighters, incapable of aerial combat, became attack aircraft.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: MooH

Then they were so hastily replaced by the Helkets and transferred to attack aircraft.

There was no haste - they began to design a replacement for the Wildcats back in 1938, when the F4F itself had not even entered service. At first they wanted to get by with little blood and simply replace the Wildcat's motor with a Wright R-2600, but it turned out that the new motor did not fit into the old fuselage in any way. And by the beginning of 1941 a mock-up of a new fighter was made. The contract for the first two prototypes was signed on 30.06.1941/07.01.1942/1080 (on the same day as the contract for the first series of competitors - "Corsairs"). On 6/1/1942 Grumman was ordered XNUMX FXNUMXF-XNUMX with a deadline of September XNUMX. And at that time there was no definite data on the superiority of the Zero over the Wildcats.
By the way, if Grumman had exactly fulfilled the terms of the contract, then Hellcat would have turned out to be another "middle peasant". But he decided to take the risk and instead of the Wright R-2600 made a new fighter for the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 - despite the initial refusal of the Bureau of Aeronautics to change the terms of the contract.

[Mooh]

Convinced. The Americans were so rich that it was not difficult for them to replace the main deck aircraft at the height of the war. Just a planned rotation.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: MooH

Convinced. The Americans were so wealthy that replacing the main decked aircraft at the height of the war was not difficult for them.

They were so rich that they ordered two new carrier-based fighters at once.
Moreover, the order for the first series of one of the new carrier-based fighters to replace the Wildcat was signed 5 months before the US entered the war - 30.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX. But there were known problems with this aircraft - the fighter turned out to be a good one, just sit on the deck in it it was extremely difficult.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: tomket

Can you tell us what was the very masterpiece of "Zero"?

The Zero's masterpiece lies in the training of its pilots and the lack of combat experience of its opponents.

[Mooh]

"Zero" - plane of limiting parameters for a single-row star. They squeezed everything out of the structure. Domestic single-rowers with FV-190 (the only German fighter with a two-row engine) could not fight in principle. The Japanese were quite successful in opposing the American two-row soldiers.
By the way, the topic for srach was thought up: who will defeat whom Zero or La-5? Here in the comments they tried to compare with the thin one, though it was not very successful, but is it weak with Lavochkin?

[Andrey Shmelev]

Andrew, no one tried to compare Zero with "thin". They just wrote that if Zero was a hit in Europe, the opinion about him would have been completely different;) A lot of stars converged to make Zero a legend

[Mooh]

It depends on what year. In the battle for Britain, he would be useful to the Germans. Accompany the bombers and crush the Hurricanes - that’s it. And as an air defense aircraft or front-line fighter, he is certainly not a legend at all.

[Andrey Shmelev]

In the battle for Britain, he would be useful to the Germans.

so for sure, but we kind of say for December 1941;)
well, or I apologize, fuzzily expressed my thought above

[DimerVladimer]

Quote: tomket

Can you tell us what was the very masterpiece of "Zero"? Well, or what he won about the same opponent, "Veldket".

With the fact that Zero’s range was twice as high, and the Japanese aircraft carrier could launch an attack at an unattainable distance from the enemy, the enemy’s strike aircraft formation, had to approach for another 4-5 hours at full speed while under attack before its aircraft group could reach the Japanese aircraft carrier. This is the main and undeniable advantage of the A6M.
This is also its main drawback: the range was achieved by simplifying the design as much as possible, refusing to protect the tanks and the exhaust gas pressurization system, which led to low combat survivability and massive loss of personnel pilots of Japanese naval aviation by the middle of the war.

[Oleg Zorin]

A masterpiece only at the beginning of the war.

[yehat]

Quote: MooH

Ki-84 against the backdrop of opponents-mediocre aircraft.
Progress in those years was unrealistically fast.

Ki84 has become an equal enemy to the Americans, this in itself is an achievement.

[Dooplet11]

He did not become an equal adversary. TTX "Guts" were commensurate with TTX american fighter jets. Only. If Japanese steel equal opponents to the Americans, the war would end in a draw.

[Mooh]

yehat is right, the ki84 has become an equal adversary to American aircraft, but Japan has not become an equal protagonist of the United States. No need to mix tactical and strategic issues in one pile.

[Dooplet11]

So this yehat mixed the plane and the nation together:

ki84 became equal to the Americans adversary

I had to fix it. Separate aircraft and nations "on the shelves".

[Crimean partisan 1974]

the action of the Japanese leadership, like their colleagues in the Reich, was idiotic, instead of developing success in Hawaii, making an excellent base there, making a jump for bombers and methodically raiding the west coast of the USA, they preferred to drive the British garrisons through the jungle, as well as jumping from island to island, it’s still not clear what a fright so stupidly lose victory

[bk0010]

Without "chasing the jungle of Indochina" they would not have the resources to manufacture bombs and planes for methodical raids. Japan's entire strategy was to create a security belt out of the islands, preventing the US Navy from using them for supply tasks. Then the US Navy would have to switch to raiding tactics that the empire could endure. But the Americans learned to supply from ships, after which everything began to be covered. So the way out could be a massive amphibious assault of ground forces, kamikaze, which would be foraging to destroy the industry and the population of the Pacific coast and blocking the Panama Canal. This, with a lot of luck, could give some time (there are not so many shipyards, they need to be restored instead of building a fleet, the troops, instead of fighting on the islands, are running around their territory, the population is panicking or preparing for battles instead of work).

[Crimean partisan 1974]

and I about the same, Hawaii is an excellent springboard, but the intelligently planned operation turned into nothing

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

instead of developing success in Hawaii, making an excellent bridgehead there, making a jump for bombers and methodically raiding the west coast of the USA

How to develop success? To capture Hawaii, you need to collect two or three divisions and about one and a half hundred transports and tankers, and then quietly hold this armada at a speed of 8-10 knots along the northern route with its storms, without losing the way. And without using radio communications.
Where we will take tonnage and forces for the landing? More precisely, which of the landing operations will we cancel? Japan has no extra ships - the fleet and the army have already mobilized everything that can be used for landing and supply, putting the Islands on a hungry rations (the tonnage remaining to supply the population and industry was 25% of the minimum requirements peaceful time).
And this I still do not take into account the issues of landing support and the need to replenish ammunition on ships engaged in this. Just for reference - until 1944, ammunition was reloaded only in the harbor. The nearest such harbor is Guam. Midway can not be taken into account - there until 1943, even submarines were hardly based.
And as for the raids on the West Coast ... I don’t remember among IJN or IJA bombers with a range of about 8000 km. Or do you offer one-way flights?

And most importantly - the attack on Pearl Harbor was an auxiliary operation designed to eliminate the threat from the flank for the main operation - the seizure of oil fields. If the main blow fails, the war can be considered lost immediately, Japan’s oil reserves will last for about six months. Moreover, the forces participating in the attack on Hawaii had their tasks in this main operation and therefore could not stay for long in the TO center.

[Crimean partisan 1974]

Japan has no extra ships - then explain. what the hell are four aircraft carriers and their ilk in the 42nd looped around Midway where they were successfully soaked and soaked?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

Japan has no extra ships - then explain. what the hell are four aircraft carriers and their ilk in the 42nd looped around Midway where they were successfully soaked and soaked?

The main goal of the operation at Midway is to lure the main forces of the USN Pacific Fleet into a general battle by means of hitting a weakly protected island near Pearl Harbor.
The subsidiary objective is to extend the Perimeter to the East. The same task was carried out by the Aleutian operation, which was carried out in parallel (in the original plan of Yamamoto it was not, it was insisted on by the General Staff of the IJN, who coordinated the Midway operation only "in a set" with the Aleutian one).
After which IJN for the next year would become the owner of at least the western part of the Pacific Ocean. But something went wrong ...

Moreover, by the spring of 1942 Nimitz’s aircraft carrier forces began to disturb the IJN command with their raids - one Dulittle attack was worth it.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

Auxiliary goal - you yourself understand all the idiocy of the Japanese command, Hawaii in December 41 should have become the main goal of the capture.

Uh-huh ... to "freeze" the island of Kido Butai, to use the line fleet (without which it is impossible to break through the coastal defenses of Oahu) - in order to be without oil?
If the coastal 16 "Yankees damage one of the LKs - what to do with it? To drag it across half of the ocean to Truk? And then what to fight?
Further, on 6 AB Nagumo all combat-ready deck pilots of the IJN were assembled. After the first raid on Pearl Harbor, 55 crew members and 55 vehicles were irrevocable. And this - when the air defense did not wake up (the army men did not have time to turn around, the naval ones fought back without PUAZO, "by eye"). And what will be the losses in subsequent attacks by the deployed air defense of the island? And then how to fight (with the release of 100 pilots of naval aviation a year)?
And the AB cellars are not endless - 5-6 departures, and half of the AB need to go to the base. Where is the guarantee that American AVs will not approach Oahu at this time?

Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

it was even possible to redirect the Manchu group, one FIG of the USSR would not have fought at that time

But Comrade Apanasenko had a different opinion. In December 1941, he wrote to Stalin that the time was coming when active actions might be required from his front, and assured him that to strike the Kwantung Army, he needed a dozen rifle divisions and six more BC in addition to the six already existing. Such activity could not remain unnoticed by the Japanese - the Far East was a fairly "transparent" theater of operations and the sides knew each other's plans and forces to the exact direction of the strike and the division (sw. V. Kalinin wrote how, in response to Japanese plans, ours began to build UR in the directions strikes, after which the Japanese changed their plans - and ours began to equip new missiles ).
And one more thing: the United States at that time was a non-belligerent ally of Britain. Britain was a warring ally of the USSR. Where is the guarantee that the USSR, after the Japanese attack on the United States and Britain, will not decide to enter the war - either on its own or under the push of the Allies? The same FDR in real history wanted to place American "fortresses" on our Far East for raids on Japan.

[NF68]

In 1941-1942, the Zero was not a bad fighter. At least until the Americans properly studied all the main disadvantages of the "Zero" and learned how to best deal with it.

[Tamek]

I read it with pleasure, a cool fighter, if he really was in no way inferior to the Mustangs, but I would also like to see statistics on sorties, victories, losses, etc.

[DimerVladimer]

Expected Scheme.
The authors of VO began to take the most popular aircraft (tank ship) and "explain" why all the fools are not so, and they will now reveal the ultimate truth ...

Well, start with the development - dig at least a shallow Type 97 (Ki-27) from the history of creation, compare it with competitors in the competition, compare with I-16 (M-25), combat use, pilot feedback ... and move on to the appearance of evolutionary models. Type 1 (Ki-43) ... dancing even to the Ki-84 - even to the J7W Shinden.

No - the captains of evidence will reveal the truth to the natives, as if they have some on the Internet, and the rest are tapping on the pipes ...

it’s more original in the Japanese aircraft industry except that the Tank bomb :)

Well, at least something original or unknown translate from Japanese or English ...

No, they will tell us that type 0 (1940-41 g) was worse than type 4 (1943-44 g)
Very uninformative articles - superficial went to VO.