The “swallow” of vengeance: could Me.262 bring the Nazis victory in the war?

Chronicles of the Problem Fighter


Recently, the author came across Oleg Kaptsov’s material “Me.262 fighter jet: shame and degradation of the Luftwaffe”. The first thought was a critical review, however, looking more closely, he (the author) realized that this did not make sense: strange methods for assessing the potential and effectiveness of Me.262 are visible to the naked eye.




In general, the article can be considered as a very characteristic (at least in the Russian-language literature) example of the assessment of the Messerschmitt Me.262 — the first serial turbojet aircraft and the first turbojet aircraft in the world, which generally participated in hostilities.

There are two extremes here:
a) Me.262 - an incompetent "log". He did not need to be launched in a series;
b) Me.262 is a miracleweapon. He would let Hitler win if he appeared a year earlier.

It must be said right away that a comparison with the British Gloster Meteor is incorrect for many reasons, in particular, the "British" did not fight in the air against enemy combat aircraft, limiting himself to intercepting Fau missiles and reconnaissance. In a word, not a lot. Me.262 is not an example more efficient: on its account, historians believe, approximately 150 downed enemy vehicles.

And here, as noted above, propagandists of all stripes come into play. In Russian-language literature, the emphasis is traditionally placed on the "childhood illnesses" of the fighter. However, the authors modestly remain silent that they have a place in general with any modern (especially revolutionary) technology. And you also need to understand that many of the new machines of the anti-Hitler coalition had a lot of similar problems that they eliminated for years.

So, in the somewhat biased book “Falcons, washed with blood: Why did the Soviet Air Force fight worse than the Luftwaffe?” Historian Andrei Smirnov writes that the first Soviet La-7 fighters, because of the low build quality common to all La fighters, are often nothing did not differ from the much earlier La Xnumxfn. Well, the very early “Benches” were often a real curse for pilots. And one could only dream of at least approximately reaching the speed of Bf.5F / G. In general, the Messer is a very dangerous opponent. In any period of the war. Not every country participating in World War II could boast that it had created a fighter similar in quality. And overly critical assessments of Bf.109 in Russian-language literature do not color their authors.

Those who wish can also get acquainted with the problems of the British "miracle weapon" Hawker Typhoon, which, to put it mildly, was not at all what was originally planned. And only in the form of Hawker Tempest became a truly formidable fighting vehicle. Such examples can be cited endlessly, but does it mean that Me.262 is a real weapon of victory? Not at all.



Me.262: A Breakthrough to Nowhere


It's all the more strange to hear the arguments of some Schwalbe fans. Just make a reservation that we will not consider the shock version of the aircraft - Me.262 with the possibility of suspension of two 250-kilogram bombs, carrying not four MK 108 guns, but two. Perform horizontal bombing at a speed of, say, 700 kilometers per hour, without any sighting devices, and hit the target is an almost impossible task. Something, of course, succeeded, but Me.262A-2 was certainly not the best weapon of victory, but the fruit of Hitler's escapism, to which the Führer was too much exposed in the last years of the war.

If Me.262 played its role in the war, it was precisely as an interceptor. Terrifying bomber pilots aviation Britain and the USA. Contrary to the opinion of some authors, the weaponry of the 262nd was one of the best in World War II, which Roman Skomorokhov rightly notes in his material “On the displacement of the Me-262 fighter”.

Indeed, the Messerschmitt Me.262A-1 Schwalbe had four 30-mm MK 108 guns, even one shell of which could send a heavy bomber to the other world. For comparison, the 20-mm German MG 151 cannon sometimes required 20-30 hits to bring down a B-17 or B-24. It is significant that even the best Soviet and American fighters had several times weaker weapons than Me.262.



For example, the Yak-3 was armed with only one 20-mm ShVAK gun and two 12,7-mm UBS machine guns. Frankly, such weapons at 1944 year did not stand up to criticism. However, the Messer without additional outboard weapons, which sharply reduced the characteristics of the machine, was not much better in terms of firepower. He, like Soviet cars, quickly became obsolete in the 1944 year, despite all its original advantages.

Separately, it is worth mentioning the “unsatisfactory ballistics” of the MK 108. Critics of this gun should read the memoirs of aces of the Second World War, who preferred to hit the enemy from a minimum distance, when the "spherical maximum range in a vacuum" played almost no role. In general, by cannon fire a remote air target by default is very, very difficult. It is better to approach the enemy as close as possible.

Hitler's missed chance?


Finally, we came to the most important point: could the Messerschmitt Me.262 interceptor be the key that would help Hitler open the door leading to victory? The obvious answer to this is no. Even if 262 had appeared a year earlier, this would not have been able to prevent the raids on Germany, the Red Army and the total deficit in the Reich. It is worth saying that Germany already managed to build one and a half thousand Me.262 and if these machines were really “wunderwaffes”, they would invariably show themselves as the Nazis had originally planned: that is, they would have written a lot more than a hundred -other enemy vehicles. In practice, the plane was about the same problem: both for the Allies and for the Germans. It would take a lot more time to bring it to mind than what the Reich generally had. And completely different conditions under which, say, there would be no problem of constant raids and the associated delays in the supply of spare parts.

However, time would not have saved the Reich anyway. Gradually decrepit in the second half of the war, Germany was unable to produce aircraft at the level of the Anti-Hitler coalition by definition. And to provide them with everything necessary: ​​fuel, ammunition, etc. And, most importantly, trained pilots. Suffice it to say that the United States during the war years produced 18 thousand (!) Four-engine heavy bombers Consolidated B-24 Liberator. B-17 released in the amount of 12 thousand units, and the British Avro Lancaster was released in a series of 7,3 thousand copies.

But what about German industry? The German Heinkel He 177 bomber, which during the whole war was fired by a batch of 1000 planes and which could not be brought to mind, can be called a conditional analogue of these machines. Even if we look only at the fighter planes that are more relevant for Germany in the second half of the war, we will see that the Third Reich had critically few pilots and aircraft to fight the strongest world powers of its time. Yes, and on two fronts, the conditions of the air war in which are completely different: high-altitude battles - on the Western front, battles at low and medium heights - at the Eastern Theater of Operations.



From this point of view, the discussion of the “dry” characteristics of Me.262 loses all meaning. Having very high flight performance and the most powerful weapons for its time, Me.262 would never have become a “miracle weapon” that could bring victory. After all, victory in any war is a complex of technologies, methods and capabilities. Those that the Reich after Stalingrad and Kursk no longer possessed.
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  1. The comment was deleted.
    1. Amateur 7 August 2019 18: 25 New
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      And why is it better than an excellent article by Skomorokhov? And about Kaptsov’s article, anyone can see my comments on the article.
      1. Andy 7 August 2019 18: 30 New
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        I have not seen a single normal text from Skomorokhov. Well, he does not know how. put photos yes, but no texts. no offense. I’m silent about Kaptsov.
        1. Amateur 7 August 2019 18: 34 New
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          I'm not a fan of Skomorokhov either. Many of his articles are ... But the article about Me-262 is competent and correct.
          1. Reklastik 7 August 2019 19: 39 New
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            As competent and correct as all the rest of his articles. Of all his articles that I read, I attributed one or two to the good ones. The style, the logic of the presentation of the material is extremely easily recognizable, 3-5 flipping is usually enough to not see the end with the name of the creator of the article and understand who the author of this opus is))) By the way, volume is also a characteristic feature of the author, which leads to reflection)) ) The most interesting thing is that during the 4 of the year that I’ve been on the site, the articles of this author have not changed - at the same level. And this is despite the fact that the attitude towards them is clearly and caustically expressed in the comments - the feedback for the author does not work.
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          3. Vlad.by 7 August 2019 20: 31 New
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            Quote: Andy
            I have not seen a single normal text from Skomorokhov. Well, he does not know how. put photos yes, but no texts. no offense. I’m silent about Kaptsov.


            Criticism is great! Do you write the texts yourself? A link to the text from Guru-Andy is possible?
            I'd like to understand what a text that should like
            I then liked the latest articles by Roman Skomorokhov.
            It may not be ideal, from the point of view of scientific, historical and technical texts, but it is very lively, logical, intelligible, everything is on the topic, with humor and even with sarcasm. And all in moderation.
            One can argue with something, but that's the opinion, and not an axiom.
            The article by Ilya Legat, in my opinion, differs from the article by Roman only in a simplified style of presentation. There are many allegations, confirmations other than "It is advisable for critics of this gun to familiarize themselves with the memoirs of aces of the Second World War, who preferred to hit the enemy from a minimum distance"and no. There’s not even a link, or at least a couple of names of aces and titles of publications. Not to mention the evidence base in the form of calculating the probabilities of defeating the B-17 or B-24 when firing at different distances.
            The given factual digital material confirms only one statement - Swallow Hitler would not help in any case. But nobody even argues with this statement.
            As well as the fact that the Me-262 concept was in fact a breakthrough in the field of aircraft engineering, too.
            Well, except that, Kaptsov)
            Those. the author, in other words, confirmed the above by Skomorokhov, and, basically, close to the level of "everyone knows that ...".
            From the point of view of copyright, the article is written well, logically, informally, lively,
            uniqueness, again, for sure, on the level.
            It is easy to read, but there is nothing to discuss, in general, in my opinion.
            This is my purely personal opinion.
        2. Keyser soze 8 August 2019 00: 16 New
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          I have not seen a single normal text from Skomorokhov.


          I would love to read your articles. Curiosity woke up ... feel free to give a link.
      2. antivirus 7 August 2019 20: 26 New
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        bukfy-- the cook won - quickly cooked porridge and compote (?), not flyers
        Service staff (from BBukva) and logistics + continuous onslaught.
    2. Observer2014 7 August 2019 18: 59 New
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      Me.262 is a miracle weapon. He would let Hitler win if he appeared a year earlier.
      Which is not very smart printed? The author of the article, do you happen to know this? Who told you this and where did you read this? It seems to me right there is a "war" about this plane. You can look at my comments on previously published articles. My opinion does not change.This is a flying masterpiece. For its time. But no way he could not in the war and most importantly Could not help win. For reasons a thousand times printed earlier.
    3. armata_armata 7 August 2019 19: 15 New
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      finally a normally written article, not skomorokhov's and Kaptsov's comics

      Sorry that this article is normal, it’s not specifically a word about fighters, but there’s a lot of water and a logical conclusion that is already obvious to everyone ...
      1. Observer2014 7 August 2019 20: 31 New
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        The cycle of these articles about this aircraft has grown into a confrontation of opinions. Principles .. Especially it became apparent in this article. The article is explicit slag. This article is slag.
        1. Andy 7 August 2019 21: 34 New
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          the article is normal in that it is written without explanation. and the author is three times right to disassemble the nonsense of the two former authors to no purpose, as well as talk with them about the displacement of the aircraft. when Skomorokhov learn how to properly process and submit material, it will work + from me. in the meantime, he should be on an unreadable level. Kaptsov- argue that watermelon or cartilage are more tasty (from the proverb)
        2. IL-18 7 August 2019 21: 54 New
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          Any type of weapon, especially used in hostilities, either requires at least a brochure or a tiny reference, such as, for example, the book “Weapons of Victory”, which for any Soviet boy was a magnet that attracted to itself, but very tightly.
          It is not worth scolding, criticizing the authors of articles about Me-263. In the framework of even three articles, it is not possible to cover all aspects of this aircraft (like any), from a sketch on a paper, to the last flight. And comments should be used to supplement, examples of use, expression of one’s opinion about the object under consideration, and not about the author. Well, in the case of the case, for a mate, which sometimes can be very out of place, they are sent to a ban, and for such an attitude to the authors - nothing. Do not like it, write better, no difficulties.
          1. armata_armata 8 August 2019 00: 13 New
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            Do not scold, criticize the authors of articles about Me-263

            Excuse me, why not? When forgive me not one of the three articles in fact does not tell us about Me-263? I see here only Kaptsov’s ignorance, Skomorokhov’s obvious indignation and desire to promote on the topic of Legates. And the authors will forgive me, but from the point of view of a simple reader this is exactly so ...
            There is no deep analysis of the Me-263 in sight, half of the facts are clearly distorted and repeated by the participants one after another, for example, as references to thick wing profiles

            and thanks to the user Dooplet11 who could reasonably point out to the author his mistake, but unfortunately his comment was simply not noticed and this nonsense transferred to the next article to another author

            Forgive me, after this you can not criticize the authors, not one of them bothered to study materials about Me-263?
            And the comments should be used to supplement, examples of use, expression of one’s opinion about the object under consideration, and not about the author

            Excuse me, judging by the commentary, it is in them that they disassemble and give facts about consider the object , and the authors write either their personal opinion about the subject of the articles, or about each other ...
            Well, in the case of, the case for the mat, which sometimes can be very out of place, is sent to the ban, and for such an attitude to the authors - nothing

            I will say more, on many sites for such "overly meaningful" articles they send to the ban
            Do not like it, write better

            Excuse me, but get the argument, and then criticize the complete nonsense, and if you have already undertaken to write an article on the profile site, be so kind as to correspond
            1. IL-18 18 August 2019 10: 49 New
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              Quote: armata_armata
              be kind enough to match

              Correctly! You need to comment on the article, not the identity of the author. And, I did not like something in the article (or the article as a whole), this is a comment. And individuals who wrote articles and comments should not be subject to discussion.
          2. Tima62 8 August 2019 08: 46 New
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            Quote: IL-18
            It is not worth scolding, criticizing the authors of articles about Me-263.

            And where are the articles about Me 263? Tutochki is discussed by another Me 262 aircraft.
            All the same, there is a difference.
            1. IL-18 18 August 2019 10: 41 New
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              Quote: Tima62
              Quote: IL-18
              It is not worth scolding, criticizing the authors of articles about Me-263.

              And where are the articles about Me 263? Tutochki is discussed by another Me 262 aircraft.
              All the same, there is a difference.

              Here! This comment indicates to the author of the previous error (and even if everyone understood that it was a typo). The author of the comment, as a person, no one hurt. This is an exemplary comment, and from me +.
    4. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 20: 04 New
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      for me there is so little evidence
      1. Observer2014 7 August 2019 20: 55 New
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        What are the non-obviousnesses? The course of these articles is like a test. And obviously not for pregnancy.
        1. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 20: 59 New
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          ;) PS. minus, but not mine)
  2. Nitochkin 7 August 2019 18: 28 New
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    Nothing specific.
  3. stafford41 7 August 2019 18: 40 New
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    The author is aware of what tasks the MK-108 was created for, and which Luftwaffe aces praise her? This gun was created for a boom zoom, an unexpected blow. Quickly fall on top of the enemy, hit, missed, run away without getting involved in a maneuverable air battle. For such tactics, and this is pure guerrilla warfare, we needed a cannon, which at close range could carry an enemy aircraft from one hit. But to conduct maneuverable aerial combat with such weapons is suicide when opponents have artillery systems that accurately and efficiently hit air targets from 500-800 meters. In particular, it is a murder in the attack of boxes of Flying Fortresses. And not one superas of the Luftwaffe died on Schwalbe at the same time. For example, Heinrich Erkler, an ace with more than 200 victories, the former commander of JG5, demoted to rank and file, died on the Me-262, attacking the B-17 system at close range. MK-108 was praised by the aces-boomsumers, partisans from fighter aircraft, for whom it was created, because only they survived after the war. But the Germans' transition to partisanism in the sky is just a statement of the defeat of the Luftwaffe in the air. When, nevertheless, the task was to conduct a maneuvering battle to gain dominance in the air, the Luftwaffe aces put MG-109 back on their Bf-151 so that they could even get into someone, it was possible to replace it with the MK-108 messer.
    1. Destiny 7 August 2019 18: 54 New
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      Quote: Stafford41
      maneuvering air combat with such weapons is suicide

      You probably wanted to say that maneuvering aerial combat with such a fuel consumption is suicide .. Yes, and the engines didn’t have time to bring it to mind, frequent breakdowns led to the death of the pilots .. And so, of course, we were very lucky that they didn’t have time for this to make a technique and especially an atomic bomb, thanks to our grandfathers, otherwise we wouldn’t correspond with you here now ...
    2. bubalik 7 August 2019 19: 36 New
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      Heinrich Erkler, an ace with more than 200 victories, a former commander of JG5, demoted to rank and file, perished on the Me-262, attacking the B-17 system at close range
      ,, so he died ramming the third B-17, knocking down two before this.

      «Theo. I'm out of ammunition. I'm going to ram them. Goodbye. We will see each other in Valhalla ”
      “Theo” is Theodor Weissenberg, the squadron commander JG 7, also as Luftwaffe (shot down 208 enemy aircraft).
    3. haron 7 August 2019 22: 13 New
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      Quote: Stafford41
      This gun was created for a boom zoom, an unexpected blow. Quickly fall on top of the enemy, hit, missed, run away without getting involved in a maneuverable air battle. For such tactics, and this is pure guerrilla warfare, we needed a cannon, which at close range could carry an enemy aircraft from one hit.

      Your reasoning is true if you do not take into account: time, types of bombers prevailing among the allies, the presence of escort fighters. Accordingly, the tactics for different moments of the war should have been different - a game of catch-up.
      When there were no mustangs and there were no versions of the B-17 E and, all the more, the F, then the 108 and shooting it from the upper hemisphere was really deadly the first time and was little dangerous for 262.
      By the end of 42, 12,5mm, the Browning narrowed the upper hemisphere of permissiveness to “look at rivets.” At the same time, 262 pistons could have some advantage over 190. Which could first grind the gunners from 15-20mm, and grind the cockpit or motors with a quick second run ...
      Then boxes, mustangs, and other catch-ups. That is, time still played a role, and give them another year, go and know what would happen. If not with 262 then with something else (Hungarian for example).
      Or fantasy. Give 262 instead of two micron 108 one vk 37 or mg 151. and leave two 108 for a snack.
      1. Vlad.by 12 August 2019 10: 07 New
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        Again, a one-on-one battle. Do not forget that 262, no matter how fast it was, attacked the formation - a system of hefty air ships, each of which had 12, or even 16 large-caliber barrels. And they fired at everything that was approaching them, not deciphering who is the object of the attack.
        So, not 4-6 trunks of defense of the upper hemisphere of a particular fortress worked against a diving swallow, but also by a couple of trunks of three or four neighboring bombers. Total for 20 shooters hit one fighter! And no matter what the probability of hitting each specific defensive machine gun, there was a tiny number of chances to skip this stockade of bursts. Yes, and to face the attacked B17 at a speed of 800 km / h, with so many distractions it was like 2 fingers on the asphalt.
        And yet there was a cover ...
        Even if the swallows were three to five times larger, it would hardly have saved the Reich from the caput.
        It would only increase the losses of the allies.
    4. Oleg Zorin 8 August 2019 14: 12 New
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      German planes were not at all adapted for maneuverable combat (dog dump). As for the attack of the bomber formation, the most effective attack on the forehead. All other options are very, very risky. By the way, the surviving aces of the Luftwaffe wrote about this in their memoirs. Shooting from any gun from a distance of 500-800 m is useless, you can only get by accident.
      1. haron 11 August 2019 09: 00 New
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        Quote: Oleg Zorin
        most effective forehead attack.

        Yes. It is for the same reason that it is better to shoot the enemy in the head. When shooting in the forehead of a bomber, its weakest point is easily destroyed - the crew. At the same time, the target practically does not move - due to counter courses.
        But the degree of danger of a front attack depends on both the type of bomber and its model. We take B-17 models G, and a series of E and B-24. The B-17 F has a three-fold advantage in the number of 12,5mm bullets flying straight ahead.
        The question of shooting from 500-800 meters, it is useless because of the small ammunition on the fighter. On bombers, the stock of cartridges of 12,5x99 allowed them to open fire from 1000 meters, which was done.
        Well, a 13 or 20mm projectile cannot lose effectiveness after 800 meters. Aim and hit hard - yes. The stock will run out quickly - yes. It’s necessary to strike at a close range.
        In general, this is the theme of "walking in a circle."
        1. Vlad.by 12 August 2019 21: 03 New
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          The volley mass of two M-2s is 3 times more than 4 Me-262 cannons? Really?
          Yes, and the bow of the bow turret at first on the B17 G was only 300 rounds per barrel. Those. in a duel situation, the B-17 had no advantage.
          But in the ranks of the fighter there were almost no chances. From 1000 m to 400 approach at a speed of 600-800 km (3-5s), during this time take aim and release a short plop from 4 trunks, and then also dodge the collision and get away from the shooter tracks from the Combat box.
          1. haron 16 August 2019 08: 12 New
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            Quote: Vlad.by
            The volley mass of two M-2s is 3 times more than 4 Me-262 cannons? Really?

            Not only is the 30mm shell larger, but there is also almost half the explosive weight.
            Of course, it’s bad at the expense of the two, therefore, at the first opportunity, two 7,62 were changed to 12,5. And for most of the war, six 12,5 mm barrels looked forward, although more often there were four M2 in the sector. The ammunition was loaded with overload, but this is not so important.
            For any German fighter, a 12,5mm hit minimized his attack. For any bomber, a 30mm hit. the cockpit had the same consequences. But MK 108 began to arrive from 6.1943, before that it was necessary to plant a dozen 20mm.
            At-17 at least two people were aiming, or even three. On Me or Fv there is only one. That is three aiming points instead of one.
            Balistic is important.
            Lowering at M108 at 1000 meters - 41 meters, at 500 meters about 10-15 meters. The M-2 is less than 0,5 meters at 500 meters and up to 1 meter per 1000.

            Quote: Vlad.by
            From 1000 m to 400 approach at a speed of 600-800 km (3-5s), during this time take aim and release a short plop from 4 trunks, and then also dodge the collision and get away from the shooter tracks from the Combat box.

            We add the speed of approach of the two machines, and then MK108 will have up to 3 seconds.

            Total
            MK 108 on Me262 appeared when the bombers were already walking in a square and the mother of God was sticking out of their forehead.

            This is to ensure that the concept of "bad" or "better" for the result of the meeting Me and B is very relative. A good tactical result differs from a disaster by a dozen% of losses. Strategically won the bombers.
  4. Horse, people and soul 7 August 2019 18: 58 New
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    This is the third article in a row, right ...

    The "swallow" of contention.

    laughing

    I’m not sure that any of the words used above is not obscene in VO.
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  5. Grossvater 7 August 2019 19: 02 New
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    With the permission of society, I still believe that the Third Reich jet aircraft was ruined by the decision, in principle, to develop engines with axial compressors. The path to humanity in a brighter future has been paved, but they themselves are left with nothing. It is from here that the problems of 262, in any case, from the category of unsolvable ones.
    Betting on hopeless, but real "centrifuges" would allow the Luftwaffe to get a combat-ready car at a speed of + 800, a year like that in 42.
    And so, the ears of jet BMWs quite so grow from mid-70's engines.
    Actually there is a wonderful book. Avgustinovich, "The battle for speed." There, all this is described in great detail.
    1. beeper 7 August 2019 20: 31 New
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      Thank you, dear aka Grossvater, for the title of the Book and the Author! good It seems I once read a similar one, but even if I did, I’m sure to re-read it now!
      Write more often - your comments, not only about aviation, are technically competent and I'm very interesting! winked
    2. Mooh 7 August 2019 21: 16 New
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      Augustinovich, "The Battle for Speed"

      Just read recently. The presentation is so-so, sometimes chaotic, sometimes insufficiently detailed, but the material is incomparable. I learned a lot of new things for myself. I’ll also re-read it for sure, I missed a lot and did not understand much.
  6. Mik13 7 August 2019 19: 07 New
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    Indeed, the Messerschmitt Me.262A-1 Schwalbe had four 30-mm MK 108 guns, even one shell of which could send a heavy bomber to the other world.

    And in the MK 108 ammunition was a high-explosive incendiary projectile with a hydrodynamic fuse. Which worked only on contact with the liquid. What happens to a B-17 or B-24 fuel tank when an 85 gr explodes inside. RDX - I think, and so it is clear. No system of pressurization with inert manure will help - the tank will simply break off with a hydrodynamic shock.
    1. beeper 7 August 2019 21: 06 New
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      Quote: Mik13
      Indeed, the Messerschmitt Me.262A-1 Schwalbe had four 30-mm MK 108 guns, even one shell of which could send a heavy bomber to the other world.

      And in the MK 108 ammunition was a high-explosive incendiary projectile with a hydrodynamic fuse. Which worked only on contact with the liquid. What happens to a B-17 or B-24 fuel tank when an 85 gr explodes inside. RDX - I think, and so it is clear. No system of pressurization with inert manure will help - the tank will simply break off with a hydrodynamic shock.

      hi No wonder they say, “Learn to live forever!”, For the first time I learned about such a hydrodynamic fuse, it was purely engineering interested in the design, how was this fuse operating principle realized ?!
      I am familiar with the principle of operation of a high-explosive fragmentation projectile of a tank gun and its setting to “instant (high-explosive, without a protective head cap)” and “slow (high-explosive, with a cap)” firing, allowing HE shells to penetrate into the obstacle, m. slow, after breaking through the skin of the aircraft, the fuse of a high-explosive incendiary projectile of an air gun and was meant as "hydrodynamic" when it enters the fuel tanks ?! winked
      Where is our most technically savvy and always thoroughly studying the problem respected comrade Undecim, do I really have to deal with this "hydrodynamic hitch" myself (I apologize in advance for these convex "manipulative techniques" repeat ) ?! wink
      1. Mik13 8 August 2019 08: 44 New
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        Quote: pishchak
        No wonder they say, "Live and learn!", The first time I heard about such a hydrodynamic fuse ....

        Many where mentioned. For example here: http://www.airwar.ru/weapon/guns/mk-108.html

        Quote: pishchak
        purely in engineering was interested in the design, how was such a principle of fuse action realized ?! ..... m. slow, after breaking through the skin of the aircraft, the fuse of a high-explosive incendiary projectile of an air gun and was meant as "hydrodynamic" when it enters the fuel tanks ?!

        The source says the following:
        Incendiary shells were also popular for hitting fuel tanks on an enemy aircraft. A feature of this type of shells is the presence of a hydrodynamic fuse that fires only when in contact with a liquid.

        I can assume that since the fuse is clearly not electric (an obvious and simple solution at the present time), it is really hydrodynamic. KMK, the simplest and most reliable solution is fuse actuation under the influence of fluid pressure entering the fuse case through special openings. The size and location of the holes and the design of the mechanical part must be insensitive to air. The fuse is most likely centrifugal or pyrotechnic.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Nikolaevich I 8 August 2019 00: 17 New
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      Quote: Mik13
      And in the MK 108 ammunition was a high-explosive incendiary projectile with a hydrodynamic fuse

  7. K-50 7 August 2019 19: 20 New
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    The Nazis could not have won anyway and with any miracle weapon. Even nuclear bombs would not have helped them if they had appeared on them.
    It is enough to recall that by the end of the war, almost everyone was taken to the Wehrmacht and Volkssturm: old, young, children, the disabled, visually impaired and others. Germany simply did not have the necessary human resources, 75% of which found land in the East, for the graves whom they could bury.
    Even if nuclear weapons were possessed and used, Germany would simply be flooded with gases and chemicals. After that, one could forget about it for decades, since there would be no population at all and the land would be completely poisoned, therefore one could not think of any economic activity in the post-war period in those territories, from the word completely .
    Yes, she would also have taken off her “harvest”, but I say it again, after that History would have forgotten about the Germans as a nation. There would remain percentages of the former population, and then only those who by that time had "lived" in prisoner of war camps. Yes, and then in question. In the case of the use of nuclear weapons, their fate would be deplorable. Neither the West nor the USSR would have let it down, simply out of prudence and the desire for a calm post-war life, because the rabies of fascism is destroyed only physically.
    1. Narak-zempo 7 August 2019 19: 43 New
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      Yes, the Germans very successfully for themselves LAST lost both world wars. The first - before the Entente built a fleet of heavy bombers, enough to start pouring mustard gas in the cities, and the second - until the successful completion of the Manhattan project.
      1. Horse, people and soul 7 August 2019 19: 53 New
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        ... and in gratitude provided the whole world with Mercedes, Audi and Volkswagen.

        And the Japanese, apparently, Toyota and Mazda for two vigorous bombs.

        I’m not sure that any of the words used above is not obscene in VO.
        1. Catfish 8 August 2019 23: 37 New
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          My friend, can you imagine how the gloomy German genius would have made the world happy if he (the genius) were given the nature to smell the Hiroshima Atomic Flower? I'm afraid to even speculate.
          1. Horse, people and soul 9 August 2019 07: 15 New
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            I, my friend, am not sure for the gloomy genius whose today he is, especially after Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

            Today, gloomy genius from across the ocean threatens the whole world, and the Germans are just much more white and fluffy than the same Poles, Balts and other non-brothers.

            And why not?

            Almost all of the Nazis, our grandfathers completely removed. Only lame, oblique, with flat feet remained, and these ... with orientation. They gave offspring white and fluffy.

            laughing
            1. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 12: 12 New
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              Oh, I would not call the Germans white and fluffy. They have a very strong spirit of order and life in a certain manner. And some kind of employment and not aggressiveness, it seems to me that this is the spirit of establishing a certain order. And tomorrow they’ll put a peasant in Moscow Region, transfer the industry to military rails and explain why this is necessary and everything will look completely different. Fortunately, they can do it in two ways. God forbid of course.
    2. verp19 8 August 2019 09: 43 New
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      Quote: K-50
      It is enough to recall that by the end of the war, almost everyone was taken to the Wehrmacht and Volkssturm: old, young, children, the disabled, visually impaired and others.


      Of course, everything was different in the USSR:

      http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2013/0559/tema02.php

      If the war continued for another year or two - what year of birth would there be a draft in the ranks of the Soviet army?
      The population of Germany (more precisely the German Reich) approx. 92 million for the 41 year. The population of the USSR - 192 million
      But the USSR almost simultaneously (half a year late, probably) from Germany reached the draft of the 1926 and 1927 of the year. Another year and ...
      So what is not necessary about:
      Quote: K-50
      possession and use of nuclear weapons

      и
      Quote: K-50
      There would remain percentages of the former population, and then only those who by that time had "lived" in prisoner of war camps.



      And the Nazis are in Italy. In Germany - a little bit different.
      1. K-50 8 August 2019 11: 30 New
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        Quote: verp19
        And the Nazis are in Italy. In Germany - a little bit different.

        When my grandfathers turned your dung into manure, for them all the opponents were fascists. They did not understand the intricacies of misanthropic ideologies. They destroyed them.
        But the USSR almost simultaneously (half a year late, probably) from Germany reached the draft of the 1926 and 1927 of the year. Another year and ... So, do not talk about:

        In the USSR they did not call up younger than 18 years. Absolutely. Those who were younger are volunteers who, in one way or another, misled the military registration and enlistment offices.
        Yes, the children fought with us and quite a large number, but they avenged the killed parents, their burnt houses, and therefore had every right to contribute to the destruction of the brown plague! hi
        1. verp19 8 August 2019 13: 10 New
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          Quote: K-50
          In the USSR, they were not called up under the age of 18. Absolutely.


          Aha

          https://rg.ru/2015/04/30/povestka.html

          Quote: K-50
          They did not understand the intricacies of misanthropic ideologies.

          I agree that they did not understand. Otherwise, they would start from their regime.
          Although not all of course. Some understood.

          https://russian7.ru/post/khivi-skolko-sovetskikh-grazhdan-pomog/

          Quote: K-50
          my grandfathers turned your manure


          I don’t know about your grandfathers. Mine was mobilized and fought as part of the 1st Bulgarian Army.
        2. Revolver 8 August 2019 22: 00 New
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          Quote: K-50
          In the USSR, they were not called up under the age of 18. Absolutely.

          They called. My father was 1930, so luckily the war ended when he was 15. And his cousin was drafted in 1943 at 17. He managed to go on one attack. I caught a bullet when I climbed over a barbed wire, and so on the wire and sagged until dark. During this time, he managed to freeze his legs to amputation of the feet. He didn’t earn any military awards, only anniversary, but he received free “Cossacks” for the rest of his life, and the right to take without a line was everything that the lines were in the Union for.
          1. Catfish 8 August 2019 23: 49 New
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            Too expensive price for the right to skip the line to an ordinary store. Have you heard about the special departments for the nomenclature? I'm not talking about the "Birch" with checks.
            With sincere respect to your uncle and to all the front-line soldiers in our country. Not only all men, but also women fought, my mother, in particular, was a military doctor.
            1. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 12: 15 New
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              Quote: Sea Cat
              Too expensive price for the right to skip the line to an ordinary store.

              In your opinion, raising the country against the German attack was precisely for this? Or do you think in the war people thought about what benefits would then be for them or not?
              1. Catfish 10 August 2019 14: 36 New
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                No, I do not think so. I don’t know what people thought in the war because I myself didn’t fight. But I believe that they thought about how to do the job and at the same time survive if possible.
                And what you write about is the psychology of a mercenary.
                1. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 14: 48 New
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                  I wrote according to your words.
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  But I believe that they thought about how to do the job and at the same time survive if possible.

                  I also did not fight. But as far as I can judge from what has been written and from later studies, “to survive as much as possible” is a question in the lull of the battle, when a person can think about what is happening about himself about life. And in battle there is neither the time nor the opportunity to think about survival. This is the essence of the army and the soldier. In the performance of military duty, following commands and acting as part of a large army of a great country.
                  This is what our colleagues from other countries are trying to etch with us now explaining that each is a great individuality and more important than himself, there is nothing in the world.

                  I will return to the words about the expensive price. I think, again, according to what is written and said. There is no price. The state’s question is to support, but even if they didn’t do it, the soldiers would still fight, because they didn’t fight for any good for themselves then if that.
        3. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 12: 34 New
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          Quote: K-50
          When my grandfathers turned your dung into manure, for them all the opponents were fascists. They did not understand the intricacies of misanthropic ideologies. They destroyed them.

          And how does this override a correct understanding of the concept? By the way, you could not suggest that in these concepts of misanthropy?
          And grandfathers, I don’t know about yours, but most of the others didn’t turn anyone into manure and did not operate on such concepts. They defended their country and experienced a hatred of enemies completely logical and fair.
          You don’t even understand the simple difference - it was the Germans who turned and destroyed other nations, not only on the battlefield, but also in special camps for this. And those who opposed them defended their land, helped others and destroyed the enemy. And did not come up with all sorts of bullying and processing. You listened to our modern liberals and Western propagandists probably. It is now a fashionable trend to equalize the actions of the fascists and communists.
      2. hohol95 8 August 2019 12: 53 New
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        But the USSR almost simultaneously (half a year late, probably) from Germany reached the draft of 1926 and 1927. Another year and ...So what is not necessary about:

        Love an alternative story?
        1. verp19 8 August 2019 13: 23 New
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          Quote: hohol95
          Love an alternative story?


          I would not say that I love. Just in the article and in the comments there is an idea (correct) that Germany had lost its resistive potential by the age of 44. But is it worth singing praises about this? Bearing in mind, of course, the outcome of the war. I mean how this business was (with resources) in the USSR. And more precisely from human resources. But the matter was a little tight.
          Suppose for a second that the Soviet Army of the 44-year-old model in terms of motorization was similar to the Red Army of the 42-year-old model. Those. Lend Lease didn't work at full speed -

          http://mirtransporta.ru/fun/362-gruzoviki-lend-liza-vklad-v-voynu.html

          How long would the war drag out? A year or two? Those. pathetics "They have one volkssturm left !!!!" maybe a little extra.
          About the "people's militia" (in other words - the Soviet Volkssturm) in the 41st year - I will not even stutter.

          No need to do from the Soviet Union-some kind of a superhero. And to think - how valuable the Victory was given. And who is to blame.
          1. hohol95 8 August 2019 13: 34 New
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            I mean how this business was (with resources) in the USSR. And more precisely from human resources. But the matter was a little tight.

            In 1941 - 1942, the Red Army threw the boys into battle like the boys from the Hitler Youth?
            Нет!
            Would this be required in 1944-1945? No!
            Would clean the Caucasus and Central Asia!
            1. verp19 8 August 2019 14: 07 New
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              Quote: hohol95
              In 1941 - 1942, the Red Army threw the boys into battle like the boys from the Hitler Youth?

              Was it necessary? In the 41st and 42nd people were still missing.
              And so I ask you to think - who is more important in a combat situation - a minor member of the Hitler Youth armed with a Faustpatron and / or machine gun, or three adult unarmed soldiers?
              On the site "I Remember" (I must give eternal thanks to Artem Drabkin) I read this story - the boy signed up as a militia and his entire battalion (such as his boys) was sent under the command of a policeman to the front line. The armament of the battalion consisted of a gun and checkers of a policeman, several air rifles and a motorcycle. It was because of this motorcycle that the narrator survived. A policeman sent him with a report to the rear on a motorcycle.
              Yes, of course, in the 41st to the Hitler Youth was still far away.

              Quote: hohol95
              In the USSR, workers volunteered for the front line, and their children stood at the machines!


              Yes, of course, machine tools were much better and safer. And the ration was there - wow ...
              How bad are your moral ideas?
              How did it happen that guys and women had to be put to the machines?
              Do you think this is a necessary measure? And who is to blame? What happened to the cadre army?

              Quote: hohol95
              Would this be required in 1944-1945? No!


              In the 44th no. In the 45th, the youth of the 27th year of birth was summoned. Thank God, not everyone was sent to the front.
              1. hohol95 8 August 2019 14: 17 New
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                In the 45th, the youth of the 27th year of birth was summoned. Thank God, not everyone was sent to the front.

                In the rear units there were many possible candidates for sending to the front! However, they were not sent!
                And so I ask you to think - who is more important in a combat situation - a minor member of the Hitler Youth armed with a Faustpatron and / or machine gun, or three adult unarmed soldiers?

                Who prevented the German gunsmiths from creating reliable, but easy to manufacture weapons?
                And where did all those masses of weapons captured in Europe go?
                When picking Volkssturm, it suddenly turned out that there were no stocks of rifles and cartridges for them. Where did the trophies from France, Belgium, the USSR go? Did you give everything to the policemen?
                They boasted so much in the masses of captured weapons!
                On the site "I Remember" (I must give eternal thanks to Artem Drabkin) I read this story - the boy signed up as a militia and his entire battalion (such as his boys) was sent under the command of a policeman to the front line. The armament of the battalion consisted of a gun and checkers of a policeman, several air rifles and a motorcycle.

                Find better the number of the "Old Zeichhaus" and read about picking, uniforms and weapons of the Moscow militia!
                And how old was that kid? 12?
                1. verp19 8 August 2019 14: 35 New
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                  [
                  Quote: hohol95
                  And how old was that kid? 12?


                  No, I just finished 10.

                  The fighter is right. It is fully trained, armed and equipped.

                  And if I’m not mistaken, a native of Moscow.

                  Quote: hohol95
                  Who prevented the German gunsmiths from creating reliable, but easy to manufacture weapons?


                  None. And they created.

                  Writer Vasil Bykov:

                  “In general, the conversation about the quality of weapons arose among front-line soldiers quite often - both in hospitals and in moments of short lull. Hot topic! It all came down to one thing: what rubbish our automatic machines, machine guns, guns and tanks. But no one dared to talk about this at political activities. Since in all the newspapers one could read: our weapons, our equipment is better than German. They have everything artificial, solid ersatz — bread, soap, and coffee. Moreover, the troops supply an unbearably smelly powder - dust, which is poured all in the dugouts. It turned out that it was much more convenient, according to our example, to fry lice in barrels than to use it. Sometimes orders were read to us, in which sentences were announced to officers who allowed themselves to praise German weapons, especially tactics. For she, as we have heard more than once, was also our best. At the same time, only a few grinned wryly, but kept quiet. ”

                  Quote: hohol95
                  In the rear units there were many possible candidates for sending to the front! However, they were not sent!


                  Che I do not catch your logic - is the "tilovoy part" - part of the army?
                  To get to the tilovoy unit (i.e. in the army), you can either call or voluntarily.
                  In the 45th, was the call of the 27th year of birth or not? Follow my links - it says it was. Those. in the 45th year, there was already a shortage of people in the army. And if (God forbid) the war continued for another year or more - what would happen to these guys?
                  1. hohol95 8 August 2019 14: 55 New
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                    No, I just finished 10.

                    How old was the "tankers" of the Hitler Youth in 1945?
                    Che I do not catch your logic - is the "tilovoy part" - part of the army?

                    The rear units are parts of the Red Army or Navy, Air Force!
                    My grandfather with 1942 years and until the end of the war he was a technician at the rear airfield! He was not sent to the front. So there was NO NEED in this!
                    Someone was thrown into battle from a cadet or school bench, and some were never sent to the front line!
                    And what this explains to me is unknown!
                    And in the Third Reich, as volunteers for the front in 1944-1945 were WORKERS and EMPLOYEES?
                    1. verp19 8 August 2019 16: 25 New
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                      Quote: hohol95
                      Someone was thrown into battle from a cadet or school bench, and some were never sent to the front line!
                      And what this explains to me is unknown!


                      The explanation is very simple - In the 41st and 42nd year, the German pressed. And they threw everything that was horrible. But in the 41st and 42nd year there was WHO to throw. Not boys and old people, but everyone else. How many cadets died near Moscow and Stalingrad?

                      And how was the militia armed?

                      https://news.rambler.ru/other/37578466-odna-vintovka-na-troih-v-1941-godu-mif-ili-pravda/

                      In the 45th, the Germans ran out of reserves - and they sent everything at hand to the front. But the saddest thing is that the USSR also came close enough to the same thing. 27th year of birth !!! In 1945, among them were 17-year-olds. Think - in the USSR there were 100 million more people than in Germany (including all kinds of Volksdeutsche there). Those. twice as many people, and began to call on the 27th year of birth.
                      1. hohol95 8 August 2019 16: 33 New
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                        The explanation is very simple - In the 41st and 42nd year, the German pressed. And they threw everything that was horrible. But in the 41st and 42nd year there was WHO to throw. Not boys and old people, but everyone else. How many cadets died near Moscow and Stalingrad?

                        Why was my grandfather sent to serve at the rear airfield, and his wife's BABKU in 1942 was sent to serve at the front-line airfield?
                        How do you explain this?
                        The boys and the elderly in 1941 and subsequent years stood up to the machines, replacing men of draft age!
                        Didn’t the Germans then throw cadets and sailors to the front lines?
                        Have you reclassified tankers as SKIERS after losses in the winter of 1941?
                        The wedge was lost. The front of the 3rd Panzer Group straightened. The tank tip aimed at Moscow from the north flattened. The manpower and remnants of the technology of German divisions, including several Pz.35 (t) 6th Panzer, moved 90 km and took up positions on the river. Lama In January 1942 they were already at war in the area of ​​Zubtsov and Rzhev as part of the 9th Field Army of General Model. In these battles, the 6th Panzer Division lost its last tanks - its soldiers were retrained as foot soldiers and skiers. After the front stabilized in this area, the division was withdrawn to the rear, where it was rearmed with German-made combat vehicles. The armament units of the first line Pz.35 (t) were no longer composed and were used in police and security divisions in the occupied territories.

                        In the 45th, the Germans ran out of reserves - and they sent everything at hand to the front.

                        Who made the Third Reich attack the USSR?
                        The main question of the 20th century!
                      2. verp19 9 August 2019 09: 10 New
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                        Quote: hohol95
                        Who made the Third Reich attack the USSR?
                        The main question of the 20th century!


                        Theodore Roosevelt

                        At the behest of his masters.

                        Remember the image created in our heads by Chamberlain and Churchill. One coward, another hero. But the coward directly says in his memoirs - threw England into the fire of this war, mind you not Hitler, but Roosevelt !!! Interesting, don't you think?
                        Until 1938, the idea of ​​a collective security system existed in Europe.
                        "Litvinov, along with his colleagues, French Foreign Ministers Louis Bartoux and Czechoslovakia, Edward Benes (then also President), was the main supporter of a collective security system that would unite the USSR, Western democracies and Central European countries to contain the aggressive plans of Nazi Germany."
                        But Europe’s independent attempt to solve its problems without war is not due to outside interference.

                        The interweaving of American and German business interests I hope you know. Hitler did not appear from scratch. But most likely he was a chain dog, someone else. Who in the end, reaped the results of WWII.
            2. K-50 9 August 2019 09: 12 New
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              Quote: verp19
              In the 45th, the youth of the 27th year of birth was summoned. Thank God, not everyone was sent to the front.

              They were just 18 or about years old, so your statement about calling children "past the box office".
              We still have 18 years of military age. hi
              1. verp19 9 August 2019 11: 01 New
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                What does "about" mean? What is the boundary in the laws between “children” and “adults”? What does "coming of age" mean?
                "past the cash register". Past the box office - this is when the state, having a double demographic advantage over its adversary, is forced to call "about."

                Losses (according to Sokolov):

                https://pobedobesie.info/sovetskie-poteri-v-velikoj-otechestvennoj-vojne/

                http://ricolor.org/history/b/sok/6/

                Perhaps he will also estimate the losses of the Soviet army at 21.6 million (million !!!) in more cautious estimates.
                But is this also "past the checkout" in your opinion? What is the value of how much you lost
                Quote: K-50
                my grandfathers turned your manure


                Alas ... (here followed the text on how to look for responsibility in their own, at least at the level of moral condemnation, but ..).

                I will not argue with you anymore. Turbo-patriotism is not my area.
        2. hohol95 8 August 2019 13: 41 New
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          Hitler Youth in World War II
          VO March 19, 2015
          Germany cherished the workers of the necessary specialties, and threw the boys under the tanks!
          In the USSR, workers volunteered for the front line, and their children stood at the machines!
  8. Revolver 8 August 2019 22: 09 New
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    Quote: K-50
    The Nazis could not have won anyway and with any miracle weapon. Even nuclear bombs would not have helped them if they had appeared on them.

    In 1945 they would not have helped. And in 1942 - they could even help.
  9. squid 24 October 2019 18: 54 New
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    Nonsense. It was enough to win the battle of Stalingrad. The Volga was cut, the Caucasus was cut off, where 90% of Soviet oil was extracted. Soviet tanks and planes stopped, the USSR lost the war. Further blockade or even the defeat of England, a truce with the United States. All. A very real scenario.
  • Taoist 7 August 2019 19: 26 New
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    Here Kaptsov threw it .... A wave went and spray flew ... Talent, by golly ...
    I even wanted to make something on the subject myself ... But I will try to restrain myself. ;-)
    1. beeper 7 August 2019 22: 12 New
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      Quote: Taoist
      Here Kaptsov threw it .... A wave went and spray flew ... Talent, by golly ...
      I even wanted to make something on the subject myself ... But I will try to restrain myself. ;-)

      hi And here is- “I’ll try to restrain” - “It’s completely in vain, old man, don’t get rid of yourself! Ahhivazhno ...” give an outlet to your energy and erudition! And for the nervous system, for your entire body, it is more useful! And we (I hope that it’s not only me ?!), your forum comrades, we respect your sculptures, they intrigued us! yes
      Kaptsov is nontrivial, thinks interestingly and paradoxically “throws” ... a loop of intrigue! wink
      1. The Siberian barber 8 August 2019 00: 14 New
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        The trick of Kaptsov’s articles is that they pretty much “warm up” the forum, who are not indifferent to the topic raised)
        1. beeper 8 August 2019 00: 18 New
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          Yes, he’s so intriguing winked -one name of that of his Article about "Swallow" immediately "made me"! yes
          1. The Siberian barber 8 August 2019 00: 20 New
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            Provocator! laughing
            In a good way!)
            1. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 12: 52 New
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              I'm not sure what is good. In my opinion, a “good” provocation is when, contrary to established concepts, correct thoughts are expressed, but undeservedly omitted to suit the situation.
              And when facts are rigged and attempts are made to pass one by one, substituting concepts is already a provocation for the sake of people reading, reacting, without any real basis. That is, purely commercial, opportunistic. The problem is always the same. Even if in general it is not perceived, then some of its parts with a bang and then they can refer to or form their opinion. Considering that there are two times direct specialists on this topic and it has miscalculated and they will be somewhere below in the comments, or maybe even pushed by flood and squeaks. Well, those who really work with information and easily see where there is even less catch or substitution in a common topic. Although most of them consider it to be just experts. As a result, such things can work misinformation and often work.
              1. The Siberian barber 10 August 2019 19: 48 New
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                Well, but it seems to me that his substitutions, sometimes, or frank pathos or "sketch" are so obvious to people who own the topic, not even quite deeply, involuntarily make them knock on the keyboard / screen))
                I am impressed by Kaptsov’s opus, for comments, to them (again))))
                I understand your train of thought, and it has common sense
  • Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 20: 01 New
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    Good weapon - this is a weapon that destroys the results of military material investments of the enemy at such a cost that one should spend more than one spent unit on one unit of resources spent (tons of steel, barrels of oil, thousand rubles, thousand man-hours, etc.) resources. To put it very simply, a good soldier is a soldier who, at the cost of his life, will kill at least two enemy soldiers.

    Of course, the armies and the possibilities for replenishing them in the two warring parties may not be equal. A good soldier can kill ten enemies at the cost of his life, one fighter can be "exchanged" for a dozen, however, if twenty more defeated enemies come in place of no one, and no one comes in place of our good soldier, the war will end in the defeat of such a good soldier.

    However, a good weapon in itself is not a weapon of victory. Weapons of victory - this is the weapon that destroys the results of military material investments of the enemy with such a cost that one percent of their own resources (steel, oil, thousands of rubles, man-hours, etc.) is spent so that the latter must spend a proportionally higher percentage on their restoration. To put it very simply, a soldier of victory is a soldier who, at the cost of his life, will kill a larger percentage of the total number of enemy soldiers than he himself makes up of the total number of his own soldiers.

    Me-Xnumx is a wonderful weapon. But he was not destined to become a weapon of victory.
    1. Slon379 7 August 2019 22: 21 New
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      We have the dead, the mute, there is one rejoicing, we fell for the Motherland, but it is saved!
      1. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 22: 31 New
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        I love Tvardovsky very much, but ... with every month of the war he became more and more an "academician" (in France this is almost a curse, I mean it). A masterpiece every line of his early poems, but ... late additions
        No, I had to finish:
        "This month was scary.
        Everything was at stake. "
        Of course, late supplements are sometimes not bad, but ... the vast majority are not even brilliant at all.
        He did not suffer them, he did not survive them for real.
        Although it is this line (from late appendices) very much.
        I apologize, prof. Deformation affects;)
        hi
        1. Slon379 8 August 2019 22: 20 New
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          The war turned souls and gave birth to imperishable lines. Late, post-war, they are already soviet not about eternal work. Of the Soviet poets, only Rozhdestvensky impresses me. That's the relevance of who sets for life! I re-read and re-read.
    2. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 13: 05 New
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      Quote: Andrei Shmelev
      A good weapon is a weapon that destroys the results of military material investments of the enemy at such a cost that one should spend more than one on their unit of resources (tons of steel, barrels of oil, thousand rubles, thousand man-hours, etc.) unit of resources spent. To put it very simply, a good soldier is a soldier who, at the cost of his life, will kill at least two enemy soldiers.

      I understood your meaning, but it seems to me that you mixed several concepts together at once.
      For example, a war of economies, a war of extermination of human and other resources, and so on.
      Technological weapons, which are relatively easy to produce, possibly in large batches, spending as little resources as possible, are one thing. But such a weapon may not be so effective in use, although it is available to many in the context of mobilization.
      Another thing is weapons, I don’t even know which term to use. Maybe "perfect"? when a complex, expensive, not very technologically advanced weapon makes it possible to fight extremely efficiently and employing a minimum of soldiers allows you to inflict heavy losses on the enemy in human, material and other resources.
      It seems to me that both this and such are needed. I will not repeat my thought, but it seems to me very correct. That an extremely perfect weapon should be in a professional army. But weapons for the mobilization army should nevertheless be directed towards the technological effectiveness of production and ease of use.
      Well, roughly speaking, it is possible to chop nuts with a microscope, but is it necessary? By the way, I tried, very convenient :)

      And a little more, it’s clear that I’m exaggerating, so do not take it to the peak. Again, due to my own savagery, I can’t choose the right term, but sometimes weapons are good and very necessary, and they don’t directly bring big losses, destruction and damage to the economy. And he does it indirectly or saves his own. And it is very out of place. For example sniper rifles. Which can suppress some kind of light fortified point, help overcome resistance, destroy the commanders in the end.
      1. Andrey Shmelev 10 August 2019 14: 55 New
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        so am I about the same thing;)

        For example sniper rifles.


        for 10 kopecks, remove an officer with tens of thousands of Reichsmarks
        well, or to silence the "scythe", who tightly pressed a platoon to the ground and save a bunch of people

        it seems you mixed several concepts together


        so for sure and did it on purpose
        perfect weapons, if they are unreasonably expensive, will be inundated with a stream of simple, cheap and technologically advanced weapons; therefore, weapons cannot be compared without taking into account the tactics and strategies of their use, as well as the economy that creates them, therefore, perfection must be justified

        the meaning of what I wrote is that formally exchanging the loss of one Me-262 to bring down one B-17 is a very high indicator of efficiency, but the Reich could not afford to exchange one Me-262 for one B-17, to win it was change one Me-262 to a minimum of 5 V-17, and preferably a dozen

        how to achieve it:
        if on Me-262 get into close combat and knock down a pair of B-17s before death - the Reich is defeated

        if you fly to the ranks of bombers on the Me-262 at full speed, launch rockets and fly further - each flight is not very effective, but it will not suffer any losses, experienced pilots save, which is the most important thing for the Reich, it was possible to achieve a ratio of 1 to 10 , and this means that the Me-262 is an aircraft capable of winning a war in the air over the Reich (not due to a bunch of frags in each departure, but due to very small losses per flight)

        at the beginning of 1944 it was so possible to try, in 1945 any tactics were useless
        1. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 15: 00 New
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          Quote: Andrei Shmelev
          the meaning of what I wrote is that formally the exchange of the loss of one Me-262 to bring down one B-17 is a very high indicator of efficiency, but the Reich could not afford to exchange one Me-262 for one of the B-17, for victory it was necessary change one Me-262 to a minimum of 5 V-17, and preferably a dozen

          I agree with the rest, too. :)
  • Operator 7 August 2019 20: 31 New
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    Exposing the misinformation published in previous articles and comments thereto:

    - Me-262 had a swept wing with a sweep angle along the leading edge of 18 degrees; Based on the ratio of the weight and thrust of the two engines, the sweep angle should be increased to 30 degrees to ensure flight stability at a maximum speed of 970 km / h, therefore the pilot speed of the Me-262 was limited to 800 km / h due to the unremovable property of the aircraft to spontaneously go into dive;

    - Me-262 could only be operated with concrete GDP of 1200 meters in length, provided that they were maintained at the ideal frequency due to the ability of low-located engines to suck up any debris on take-off and immediately fail;

    - the Me-262 glider was made according to the residual principle: a power set made of steel and wood, sheathing from duralumin and fabric, which reduced the available overload by almost zero, it was the weakness of the power set that caused the installation of low-pulse 30-mm guns in the form of cuts, as a result, the fall of the projectile trajectory was 4 meters by 100 meters;

    - Me-262 engines had a life of 25 hours (due to the lack of heat-resistant materials) and did not allow a change in the operating mode (otherwise they died out), as a result, the aircraft flew from the moment of take-off speed to take-off and to the landing glide path at one position of the gas control handle at a speed of 800 km / h, without switching to economical, cruising or high speed, so it was so easy to shoot down a piston fighter when approaching from above from above, and the actual flight range did not exceed 500 km;

    - Me-262 turnaround time (due to surge in engine compressors) in the horizontal plane was at least twice as long as the turnaround time of 1944-45 piston fighters, the plane lost any air battle, i.e. it could not be a means of securing air dominance;

    - Me-262 as an interceptor of bombers showed itself only in the very first battle, in subsequent battles, pilots of bomber detectors attacking Me-262 simply began to carry out air maneuvers, as a result of which high-speed and low-maneuverable “shwalbe” were guaranteed to slip past their opening fire point with time firing 1-2 seconds;

    - Me-262 as a bomber could drop bombs only from horizontal flight, in which the pilot did not see the target from the word at all, and the KVO of the bombs at the drop speed of 800 km was equal to 500 meters;

    - the number of highly qualified pilots who could fly on the aerodynamically improperly designed Me-262 with extremely dangerous jet engines was counted by units, so the Luftwaffe was forced to abandon the pairwise links to switch to the "Spanish" tactical scheme for using aircraft in the form of triples from one qualified leader and two unskilled slaves;

    - Of the total number of 1930 issued by Me-262, about 60 aircraft (interceptions, bombing, and dueling) took part in the fighting, which shot down about 50 enemy aircraft (mainly bombers), and about 40 Me-262 were shot down in the air during relocation from airdrome to the airdrome, other planes did not take part in the hostilities due to technical unavailability;

    - and as a cherry on the cake: according to specialized web portals, the cost of production of Me-262 was five to six times higher than the cost of Me-109, but even if the data of the notorious Wikipedia on the total cost of the glider and two engines of one made Me 262 as 110 thousand Reichsmarks, then in terms of 60 aircraft that took part in hostilities, the actual price of one combat-ready Me-262 will be
    3 million 300 thousand Reichsmarks.

    It is the last figure that answers the question of the advisability of promoting adventures in wartime with an airplane with unfinished aerodynamics, a surrogate design, burning and surging engines and short-barreled weapons.
    1. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 20: 44 New
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      based on the ratio of weight and thrust of two engines


      let's proof with calculations - check

      operate only with concrete gdn length xnumx meters


      they took off from the highway

      Me-262 was manufactured according to the residual principle


      it was very economical in design, tell us better about the "plywood" on Soviet aircraft

      Me-262 engines had a resource


      how much nonsense can you carry?

      turn time Me-262


      let's proof with calculations - check

      poorly manoeuvrable Schwalbe guaranteed to slip past their milestone


      compare time and density of fire with Me-109

      number of highly qualified pilots


      let's proof

      of the total number 1930 issued Me-262


      where does the plane, if it's spring 1945?

      according to specialized web portals, the cost of production of Me-262 was five to six times higher than the cost


      already pulled up a lie, what is it that such a web portal was washed down?
    2. Dooplet11 7 August 2019 20: 46 New
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      Could you accompany each revelation with a link to a document: report, technical description or other source? For example, is there anything about zero disposable overload?
      1. Operator 7 August 2019 21: 00 New
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        I have already shoveled so many Internet sources of information on Me-262 available to everyone and everyone and provided links to them (accompanied by a boorish reaction in some comments) that I can recommend the simplest thing - type the specified abbreviation in Latin letters in the browser search bar and get answers to all questions.
        1. Dooplet11 7 August 2019 21: 05 New
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          So is there a proof about zero disposable overload?
        2. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 21: 08 New
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          draining counted negative
        3. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 13: 09 New
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          Quote: Operator
          Type the specified abbreviation in Latin letters in the browser search bar and get answers to all questions.

          This is amazing! But what about thematic knowledge, the fact of checking, verification of the sources, information analysis, sampling.
          No, is it that simple to dial and get answers? For example, from an article of the same Kaptsov?
          Once again, this is amazing.
    3. Sasha_rulevoy 8 August 2019 00: 07 New
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      Quote: Operator
      about 60 aircraft (intercepts, bombing, dueling), which shot down about 50 aircraft of the enemy (mainly bombers)


      Me-262 pilots reported on 542 air victories. Although of course the Goering "aces" are liars from liars. I entered “Me-262 confirmed kills 50” into the search engine, but found nothing.
      1. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 13: 32 New
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        Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
        Me-262 pilots reported on 542 air victories. Although of course the Goering "aces" are liars from liars. I entered “Me-262 confirmed kills 50” into the search engine, but found nothing.

        I would not describe it like that - liars from liars. If you read almost any of our books or some words of command on this topic, then we have always recorded more than destroyed, and sometimes much more. And I'm not sure that this is some kind of cheating. They simply attacked someone - they knocked out, counted themselves. And he could be attacked by another 3 crew and each recorded himself. And on earth it is even more extensive.
    4. Crimean partisan 1974 10 August 2019 09: 40 New
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      "the price of one combat-ready Me-262 will be 3 million 300 thousand Reichsmarks." ....... why carry this nonsense ??? how not yet managed to count in carats !!!! if the state is in a state of war and industry is transferred to the production of military products, then all sorts of financial troubles lose their meaning. , all production is measured in man-hours, there are calculations as it is calculated, when you master them, you will come to the stunning result that the Me-262 had less man-hours than the Me-109
      “burning and surging engines and short-barreled weapons.” ...... one more idiocy, surging and burning engines are not uncommon nowadays, although electronics are in full use, there are instructions for pilots that it wouldn’t come to that, at the expense of the short-barreled I bring to you as an educational program, MK-108 as one of the options. and wax at the time of 1942, the trash was supposed to come with a 30-mm MK-103 battery (read at leisure what it is)
      1. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 13: 35 New
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        Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
        all production is measured in man-hours, there are calculations as it is calculated, when you master them, you will come to the stunning result that the Me-262 had less man-hours than the Me-109

        That is, there was a high technological production? Not surprised.

        But even 3 million 300 thousand Reichsmarks is a rather abstract figure. As far as I remember, at the end of the war or after it, inflation was so monstrous that perhaps this amount was comparable to the price of a loaf of bread before the war.
  • Mooh 7 August 2019 20: 54 New
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    It is better to approach the enemy as close as possible.

    Controversial statement. If we are talking about flying fortresses going in formation, then approaching the minimum distance was almost impossible. These vehicles had extremely effective defensive weapons, and as part of the system, when the vehicles mutually covered each other, a single fighter simply did not have a single chance to break into the battle formation. Therefore, the Germans were forced to attack in groups and suffer serious losses. It was not for nothing that they experimented with shraga music and various rockets. The goal of all these stories was to shoot down bombers without falling under the fire of their shooters. So an increase in the range of the direct shot of the MK 108 would not hurt at all. Given the caliber, it would be quite possible to shoot at a group target from a great distance and get good chances to shoot down, almost without putting yourself in danger.
    Migi 15 in Korea, these fortresses snapped like nuts, although it certainly was a much more perfect aircraft than Schwalbe.
    1. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 21: 01 New
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      shoot at a group target from a long distance and get good chances to shoot down, almost without endangering yourself


      For this, 24 rockets were invented under the wings
      1. Mooh 7 August 2019 21: 09 New
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        They were invented, only they did not fly straight enough and not very fast. They had the same defect as MK 108 - the need to enter the zone of operation of defensive weapons. Again, just 24 pieces. With such characteristics, for a decent performance, several dozen were needed.
        1. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 21: 12 New
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          Again, just 24 pieces.


          and who had more? ;)

          the need to enter the range of defensive weapons


          this sheaf could be started up and "on the counter", the main thing is to keep a small angle

          dozens were needed


          or more 262)
          1. Mooh 7 August 2019 21: 18 New
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            or more 262)
            :)))
            they didn’t bring kerosene to 262 anymore and the pilots of the semi-kamikaze too.
            1. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 21: 26 New
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              I agree only partially

              Me-262 would not have been a kamikaze, provided it was possible to strictly maintain a speed of the order of 850 km / h in order to be invulnerable to escort fighters
              then the tactics are simple: they arrived - they fired a volley of missiles and fell
              attack from guns only in favorable conditions, or one long line almost at random

              Yes, they will bring down less than we would like, but practically without losses
              from a turret at a rapprochement speed of 1300 km / h in Me-262 shoot - almost like an 50-mm mortar in the Yu-87;)

              in which I completely agree: in 1943 and even at the beginning of 1944 - this would be a serious topic, and in 1945 - even the “hit-and-go” Mig-15 would manifest itself in almost the same way
              1. lucul 7 August 2019 21: 37 New
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                even the "fellow" Mig-15 would prove to be almost the same

                Not .
                It is thanks to its weapons.
                1. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 21: 43 New
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                  thanks to its weapons.


                  better of course

                  I mean, to be honest, at least three quarters will not reach the warheads, the rest will be without fuel and at constantly blocked airfields, therefore there will be disproportionately little use of 1500 cars

                  eu, but those 50 Mig-15 that will act will bring more rustle, but the final impact on the war will be negligible
                2. sivuch 8 August 2019 09: 42 New
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                  He would not have been allowed to fly up. By the way, the majority of shot down trash - it is on takeoff / landing
                  1. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 13: 37 New
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                    Quote: sivuch
                    He would not have been allowed to fly up. By the way, the majority of shot down trash - it is on takeoff / landing

                    But they say - not shot down, but losses. That is, it could be and were not primarily combat losses.
    2. lucul 7 August 2019 21: 35 New
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      Migi 15 in Korea, these fortresses snapped like nuts, although it certainly was a much more perfect aircraft than Schwalbe.

      The main thing is that MiG, thanks to its guns, could shoot down flying fortresses with impunity, while Me.262 couldn’t with impunity.
      1. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 21: 46 New
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        could shoot down flying fortresses with impunity, but Me.262 couldn’t with impunity


        but no
        262 flew quickly and burned for 1 a second, since otherwise the Mustangs would have got it, had it slowed down
        MiG-15 had a bit more time to aim, but the mass of shots during this time did not exceed Me-262 by an order of magnitude
        1. lucul 7 August 2019 21: 51 New
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          but no

          You still do not want to realize the simple fact that, as above, a person wrote well:
          If we are talking about flying fortresses going in formation, then approaching the minimum distance was almost impossible. These vehicles had extremely effective defensive weapons, and as part of the system, when the vehicles mutually covered each other, a single fighter simply did not have a single chance to break into the battle formation.

          And you always consider the option - a single bomber versus a single Me.262 diving at him. And from this stove you dance.
          Judging by the trolling, we have another Russian-speaking “partner” from Israel.
          1. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 22: 01 New
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            And you always consider the option - a single bomber versus a single Me.262


            Are you okay? Are you definitely feeling well?

            I clearly wrote:

            the need to enter the range of defensive weapons
            this sheaf could be started up and "on the counter", the main thing is to keep a small angle


            You don’t understand that these very 24 missiles were invented solely in order to hit structure bombers?

            I do not need to ascribe all nonsense, with this to Kaptsov and the Operator, pst.

            Judging by trolling


            How about repeating high school? No offense.
            1. lucul 7 August 2019 22: 08 New
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              How about repeating high school? No offense.

              You will say so to your children in Haifa.
              Tell us how you are a SPECIALIST - what is the reason for such a difference in the shape of the wings on Soviet and German fighters.
              Although still the wings of the Mustang were taken as the standard.
              1. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 22: 13 New
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                You will say so to your children in Haifa.

                belay
                "if anyone got into me, then that Tatar"
                I have a few questions for you:
                -What am I suddenly a “feud from Tel Aviv" with? - Is it not clear that I'm in the Moscow time zone?
                Do you understand what you are writing? I do not understand the meaning of more than half of your text, although in one of the formations a linguist request
                1. lucul 7 August 2019 22: 16 New
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                  I have a few questions for you:

                  What is incomprehensible there? Give a photo of a top view of La-5 / Yak-3 and Me.109 / Ф-В - 190?
                  Is it not clear that I'm in the Moscow time zone?

                  Yes Yes Yes ......
                  1. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 22: 37 New
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                    Yes Yes Yes ......


                    I’ll put forward an alternative version: lucul is the deputy of the State Department in order to defame the phrase “Russian patriot” wassat
                    1. lucul 7 August 2019 22: 38 New
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                      I’ll put forward an alternative version: lucul is the deputy of the State Department to defame the phrase “Russian patriot”

                      So what's up on the wings?
                      1. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 22: 40 New
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                        So what's up on the wings?


                        complete ignorance of the materiel

                        for example, Willy Messerschmitt had an extremely clear justification for the wing shape he chose for the Me-109 and very cruelly frustrated him with competitors from Heinkel
                        Don't you know?
                      2. lucul 7 August 2019 22: 44 New
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                        for example, Willy Messermitt had an extremely clear justification for his wing shape for the Me-109

                        Yes ? And why does the horizontal stabilizer have the smallest of all fighters?
                        Characteristic in general for a German school.
                      3. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 22: 45 New
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                        do not know


                        I knew it
                        hi
                      4. lucul 7 August 2019 22: 46 New
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                        I knew it

                        So the SPECIALIST is here you.
                      5. Andrey Shmelev 7 August 2019 22: 47 New
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                        So the SPECIALIST is here you.


                        I knew it
                        hi
                      6. lucul 7 August 2019 22: 49 New
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                        I knew it
                        hi

                        And is this the whole answer of the SPECIALIST?
          2. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 14: 02 New
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            Quote: Andrei Shmelev
            I’ll put forward an alternative version: lucul is the deputy of the State Department in order to defame the phrase “Russian patriot”

            I do not agree with this, he does not make the impression of a patriot of words at all.

            He is simply looking for something to dig into by jumping from one topic to another.
  • Red_Baron 10 August 2019 14: 00 New
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    Quote: lucul
    Judging by the trolling, we have another Russian-speaking “partner” from Israel.

    Do you know what trolling is? Or is it just that you don’t like trolling? For some reason, most of those who are looking for trolls just like that.
  • WapentakeLokki 7 August 2019 21: 15 New
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    I would like to express one thing but ... Alas, on the 44, the Luftwaffe included a completely meager number of Me-262A and they could not significantly affect the raids of the mattress fortresses, but ... if they were released a year earlier then .. they were -by an order of magnitude (and there is doubt about the ability of the decent serial to build ??) and here one problem arises: as the experience of war in the sky of Germany showed, the mattress mattresses WERE NOT ABLE TO KEEP THE BLOW (i.e. if the losses exceeded MIN, in their opinion, the acceptable level - they turned off and began to look for workarounds (well, or wait - until the Deutsch weakened) and here imagine the concentrated blow of hundreds of Swallows on the B-17 multi-kilometer phalanx (something like Black Day in Korea with the B-29 and MiG-15) ... The result is predictable; the Mystangs could not intercept the fast Me-262 and 4х30 mm (those most MK-108) would have brought wild devastation into the orders of the Fortresses and all previous losses in the sky of Germany would have seemed ... an easy walk .. As a result, mattresses would surely have stopped (temporarily clear stump) raids on industrial centers in Germany .. and ... there are possible options .. So I do not agree with the author .. quipment and serial production of the Me-262 ..seroznaya bobble Reich ..
    1. Alexey RA 8 August 2019 10: 31 New
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      Quote: WapentakeLokki
      as the experience of war in the skies of Germany showed, the mattress mattresses WERE NOT ABLE TO KEEP THE SHOCK (that is, if the losses exceeded MIN, in their opinion, the acceptable level was - they curtailed and started looking for workarounds (well, or wait - until the decent weakened)

      I understand by ability to keep punch Do you understand the ability to beat your forehead against a wall with huge losses and disproportionate results, while not changing anything in tactics and strategy and relying only on the enemy running out of strength? Like sending one after another undisguised bombing regiments and squadrons to bomb the crossings - despite the fact that half of the first raid from the regiment was already returned?
      In this case, the Americans were absolutely right - the bombers and trained crews are too valuable to spend them aimlessly. Moreover, if the losses exceed the established level, this means that the remaining vehicles will not be enough to reliably hit the target and carry out the combat mission. And what's the point in losing planes if the task is not completed?
      If the losses are too large and the target is not hit, then you need to develop a different tactic to complete the task and minimize losses. And do not arrange a human wave of bombers.
      1. Falcon5555 9 August 2019 02: 01 New
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        Moreover, if the losses exceed the established level, this means that the remaining vehicles will not be enough to reliably hit the target and carry out the combat mission. And what's the point in losing planes if the task is not completed?
        The limit was considered, if my memory serves me, 3-5 percent of losses in one flight. To complete the task in this mission, such losses are negligible. But essential for continuous work. In this case, pilots can make about 15-20 sorties before half of them will be shot down. After 20 sorties for American bomber pilots, the war in Europe ended - they were sent home, where they could apply their experience to train new recruits. It is reasonable: if he is never removed from flight, then he will be almost a notorious suicide bomber, which will not improve his motivation and the motivation of recruits.
        But did someone ever hear that our or German pilots were fired after 20 sorties? This is unimaginable with us! True, the war was in our homeland, and not overseas.
        If the 262nd had appeared in somewhere in the 43rd in German air defense, he would not have allowed day raids on German cities. But the British did night raids, and in the fight against them he would probably be useless. Even if you put a radar on it - what will he do in the dark at his own speed? Nothing! But the radar did not appear on it! So he would not have prevented the bombing of Germany. But the defeat of Germany would delay.
      2. WapentakeLokki 9 August 2019 20: 56 New
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        Well, yes .. of course .. the native Texas region does not lie behind the mattress covers but to Europe .. yes to most Americans .. And in this vein, they are fighting ... And there wasn’t a moment in their history WHEN IT NEEDS TO STAND DEATH for it’s behind YOUR COUNTRY and your FRIENDLY ... or when you NEED TO GO FORWARD despite the losses and not looking for workarounds (because this is a loss of pace and, accordingly, the opportunity to lose everything previously won) .. and here the mattresses ... will leave (because they ALWAYS have space for maneuver and America overseas has never been under the blow .... Well, EVERYTHING HAS THE FIRST TIME.
        1. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 14: 07 New
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          Do not you think that in your words there is a slight nationalism?
          All these "mattresses" and other insults of representatives of another nation are all worthy of what your name would be derogatory. So it turns out that people of a certain level of education and moral qualities are trying to scold and humiliate each other. And they can be judged by the rest. If we had the opportunity to fight in conditions like the Americans, it would be foolish not to do it the same way if it is effective.
          1. WapentakeLokki 11 August 2019 16: 39 New
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            And you see in them ... worthy ... representatives ... If this is serious, then ... you do not live there ..ser..And you should look at the enemy (and for me the mattresses are enemies) ONLY through the slot of the sight .. and I CAN’t respect people who hit in the back all the way and betray on occasion ... (as was the case with their ancestors, the Anglo-Saxons, by the way Britain, including this, having rolled down from the position of the Empire over which the Sun never descends to the position of the country where her soldiers are asked NOT TO WEAR MILITARY FORMS, so as not to escalate ... huh) ... and that these are the same ... respect .. or whose women are decent .. have immigrants .. but it was Worthy THE ENEMY ... persistent, persistent, skillful ... But .. they fell under the influence of Yusovtsev and .. here it is .. rezult .. And to fight as mattresses are fighting .. maybe .. if someone else will fight THESE instead them .. well, or against the Papuans when you are on a ground attack aircraft (preferably behind a drone joystick) and your enemy is below (without air defense and even MANPADS and with the old AK-47)) this is an American war, but .. can such an enemy be respected ?? how do you think ... those ligant .. huh ..
            1. Red_Baron 11 August 2019 16: 59 New
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              Quote: WapentakeLokki
              And you see in them .. worthy ... representatives

              Yes.
              Quote: WapentakeLokki
              Seriously, then ... you are not living there .. sir.

              Yes, you follow yourself and decide for yourself.
              Quote: WapentakeLokki
              And on the enemy (and for me mattress covers are enemies) you need to look ONLY through the slot of the sight

              This is all the chatter. slit sight, blah blah blah, how many people have you killed in your life? You have many enemies at all through the slot. Have you fought somewhere or is it just an attempt to pass yourself off as someone who knows the value of these words? You would have taken away the medals from the veteran, hung yourself and also tried to impersonate one of them. Just a similar situation.
              By the way, do not believe who you reminded me of - Hitler. He also had a nation of enemies, which he looked at through sight. As I understand it, this approach is close to you.
              Quote: WapentakeLokki
              and that these are the same ... respect..or decent women whose..the emigrants have

              Nuuu, on such a topic go like a bad man, but if you please. your daughters also have immigrants, but what you don’t know doesn’t change anything.
              Quote: WapentakeLokki
              And how to fight as mattress covers .. maybe .. if someone else will fight FOR THESE instead of them .. well or against the Papuans when you are on the attack aircraft (or better for the joystick of the drone) and your enemy is below (without air defense and even MANPADS and old AK-47)) this is an American war, but .. can I respect such an ENEMY ?? how do you think ... teligent .. aha ..

              Well, you are happy to evaluate who is fighting how, you yourself probably tried against them, but you can’t just chat here. You should at least show yourself on the masculine side, despite the insufficient evidence of this.
              All that you wrote is real rascal nationalism. When you humiliate other nations, while yourself with them is not even equal. I don’t take your nation, I’m just not a nationalist, but you. Everything that you wrote in spite of others happens to you, but at the same time you became a Nazi, but they are not in the general mass.
              1. WapentakeLokki 13 August 2019 21: 53 New
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                Well then, when you and your family come to be cut ... I hope you have time to do it ... like a man .. but not like a hamster who can only get smart ... and yes about how much .. and with whom .. he fought no .. you what do you really think that someone will be crucifying in .. freaky yes all such posts are tracked once .. so think what you want but .. but it will come to you by itself ..
                PS and yes ... I consider myself a Russian nationalist .. and let the nation think about other people .. all the way Russians SAVED THE WORLD and ... got a DECENT LESSON for it ... don’t do GOOD .. don’t get EVIL ..but this, by the way the topic has nothing to do with it .. live ... bye ..
                1. Red_Baron 13 August 2019 22: 35 New
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                  I understand that your family has already been cut out, so you're so angry? And when your daughters were raped, why did you get smart and not act like a man?
                  And who needs posts to track, where do you write different vile things? You have the biggest problem that you do not look like a Russian. Among the Russians there were also Nazis like you, but we always dealt with them ourselves. Because it is dirt on the body of the Russian nation.
                  This is the difference between us and those who tried to give us some lessons. I wish you health ... for the time being, further on, perhaps you will get a bigger grant from there.
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                    1. Red_Baron 15 August 2019 19: 16 New
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                      You have a big problem. You consider your personal experience to be decisive. But personal experience amid a lack of knowledge is nothing. Because it is applicable only in certain situations. But you can never understand this. You make a mistake like so many not-so-smart people. A narrow horizons against the backdrop of mental illness is a very terrible mess. You put yourself above others, because it seems to you that having gained a certain experience, you have risen above those who do not have it. But as I said above, not empiricism determines how the world works, but empiricism allows you to see how this part works in practice. Do you understand the difference? The laws of the world and a small piece of them that we have felt in practice. Of course, in this piece you will be more literate than those who do not understand it. But you can’t understand how small it is and how low it is.
                      Your rudeness only emphasizes your lack of development, when you are not trying to hide your lack of knowledge and mind behind an aggressive homosexual position. By the way, I’ll tell you, those who very diligently promote activity in this regard, most often turn out to be a liability. This is a common psychological substitution.
                      As for the grant, I doubt it less and less. It is not for nothing that you become like fascists from other countries. And carefully copy their ideology. You understand, you can sell a lot of things. But after selling your homeland you have only ambition, rudeness and emptiness left. Perhaps it will be better for you, without destiny, without homeland, without mind.
                      I am not a humanist or an internationalist. I simply do not consider myself entitled to judge others without having tried it myself, and even more so entire nations. To do this, you must be god-like, for example, like you.
    2. Crimean partisan 1974 8 August 2019 11: 04 New
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      WapentakeLokki .... pluser. it’s as if I’ve read my thoughts, I can only add, the night raids in Hamburg, Berlin, Dresden, Leipzig in 43 were supposedly claimed lives of about 100 thousand, and the almamater of science and housing is unmeasured, you can imagine how many of these 100 thousand were experts, how many future specialists, and just a couple of years ago, with the loss of 10-13 percent of the 1000 Haris bombers raids, the issue of raids was generally questionable, and the clumsy F-88 caused losses and lost their performance characteristics due to protruding antennas 110, and if there were 262 led by Velters and Rudophers, Rademacher ?????
      Black day in Korea with B-29 and MiG-15) .... Black Friday, after it the carpets stopped and the 38 parallel still exists
    3. Revolver 8 August 2019 21: 22 New
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      Quote: WapentakeLokki
      Alas, on the 44th in the Luftwaffe there was a completely meager number of Me-262A

      If the Americans left the game, even for a while, how much more Russian blood would have been spilled? And you regret not spilling?
  • lucul 7 August 2019 22: 29 New
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    What in fact about Me.262?
    This plane, pulled over the best design minds of Messerschmitt, gobbled up a bunch of resources for research and development of the aircraft and the jet engine, and at the exit received a plane that was superior to other modern fighters, only at maximum speed. Yes, his potential was huge, but in the conditions of war it was unrealizable.
    Just imagine that Me.262 would not have all the resources and man hours, would be aimed at developing a new (or fine-tuning the old Me.109) fighter and a new engine for it. What would give the best result?
    1. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 14: 14 New
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      Quote: lucul
      Just imagine that Me.262 would not have all the resources and man hours, would be aimed at developing a new (or fine-tuning the old Me.109) fighter and a new engine for it. What would give the best result?

      This would most likely not be. What Me.109 became was not a mistake and not an accidental turn. This was a conscious movement in more than one modification. And if it was a mistake, it was conscious. And then they had to wake up, completely change his concept and do everything in the best possible way? Yeah, but what didn’t they do before, did they harm yourself? A new motor, if they could and would have had enough time, might have been developed. But this is not the point at all. I think Germany by this time has already lost in the fight of fighters. Having no superiority in producing a technological, highly efficient fighter that meets the requirements of the end of the war. It was necessary to change something earlier, and at that moment, already carry out a pre-prepared program.
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  • DesToeR 8 August 2019 00: 20 New
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    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    A good weapon is that weapon that destroys the results of military material investments of the enemy at such a cost that one should spend more than one of them on one unit of resources (tons of steel, barrels of oil, thousand rubles, thousand man-hours, etc.) unit of resources spent.

    Bravo! This is exactly what most "Germans" do not understand when comparing the technique of the USSR and Germany during the Second World War. And you can put the T-34 tank "in the bones" in the 5 parts or "suck" the Panther for the hundredth time, but the devil is in the details. Trivia is a qualitative measure of performance evaluation, not quantitative. Those. not millimeters of frontal armor and not the speed of a fighter jet, but the number of sorties per day, the average mileage before the overhaul period, the complexity of making a sample and its resource consumption, survivability as the ability to withstand enemy attacks without loss of combat effectiveness, fuel / ammunition / crew autonomy. And when you point out these problems with German models, the answer is one: the Germans relied on quality, not quantity. So quality is just not there! There is a reluctance to engage in logistics and consider the problem as a complex.
    1. Andrey Shmelev 8 August 2019 08: 26 New
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      do not understand the majority of "Germans"

      one answer: the Germans relied on quality


      the Germans were desperately looking weapon of victory, which for them could not be standard, American, first of all, industrial power would sooner or later crush any amount of Me-109 that Germany could really take to the air
      Me-209, of course, could become a good weapon, but it was obvious to the child that he would not become a weapon of victory
      therefore, the Germans invested in Me-262, because ... all standard moves obviously led them to defeat, but about that then it was not clear
  • Dooplet11 8 August 2019 07: 59 New
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    Speaking about the Me-262 and the effectiveness of the MK-108, you need to consider the issue only in the combination of platform / weapon / sight.
    An EZ-262 gyroscopic sight was installed on the Me-42 part, which made it possible to automatically generate a lead based on the size of the target, aircraft speed and flight altitude, both for MG-151 / 15, and for MK-108 and MK-103. The lead calculation range for the bomber class target was 1000м (this is the distance from which it was possible to open fire on a four-engine bomber!), and the maximum generated lead angle was 12 degrees (https://cloud.mail.ru/public/2WUF/68ye3Ss7v) The sight worked like this:

    The pilot should have turned on the device no less than one and a half minutes before entering the battle, so that the gyroscopes could spin up to the required number of revolutions. After that, on each of the two scales of the corrector, I set the values ​​“A” and “B” for the estimated battle height. Then, by turning the scale at the bottom of the sighting head, the pilot set the target base. During the attack, the pilot combined the crosshair of the grid with the target and the rotation of the vernier of the range finder on the ore, framed the target by changing the diameter of the grid ring. Further, in order to give the calculator time to work out a lead, the pilot accompanied the target for some time, holding the crosshair on the target as accurately and quickly as possible with the position of his aircraft and framing the target with a ring using the range finder vernier, and opened fire.
    The sight had a fixed-mark mode of operation. In this case, the movable mirror was in a neutral position, the diaphragm formed a ring of size 100 etc., and the pilot aimed like through a conventional mirror collimator sight.
    An interesting point. The EZ 42 sight was equipped with a self-liquidator in the form of two explosive plates, the detonator of which the pilot had to initiate when leaving the aircraft so that the secret device would not fall into the hands of the enemy.
    S.V. Ivanov in his monograph “Me 262 last hope of the Luftwaffe Part 3” cited the following data on the effectiveness of the EZ 42 sight:


    * regardless of the number of guns. Compiled on the basis of protocol B. No. E6 5809 / 44 geh. IIE dated January 30 1945 year of testing conducted at E-Stelle Tamewitz.
    According to this table, the percentage of hits when firing with a course angle of 30 degrees when using EZ 42 increased by 10 times. But the sight was complicated, which could not but affect reliability in combat conditions. Therefore, quite often pilots used it in a fixed-mesh mode, which nullified all its advantages and brought forward its disadvantages in the form of a large weight and a bulky sighting head. In addition, only about 800 pieces were fired from these sights (this number was distributed between Bf-109, FW-190 and Me-262), so the Me-262 / MK-108 / EZ-42 system could not become a mass weapon, yes and the Germans were not allowed to make the infrastructure for its full operation and maintenance, from the east the Red Army, from the west the Allies.
    1. Dooplet11 8 August 2019 08: 04 New
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      After the war in the USSR, Me-262 was studied very carefully. Its design, applied technological solutions and experience in combat use and operation were appreciated both in terms of advantages and disadvantages:



      Undoubtedly, these estimates were taken into account when creating the MiG-15 and its weapons.
  • fighter angel 8 August 2019 10: 06 New
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    The author writes:
    "For example, the Yak-3 was armed with only one 20-mm ShVAK gun and two 12,7-mm UBS machine guns. Frankly, such weapons at 1944 did not stand up to criticism at all."

    Hackneyed stereotype.
    If you look carefully, it becomes clear that the Yak-3 was not created to destroy heavy, four-engine bombers. They were not on our front. Even the twin-engine Yu-88, Non-111, Xsh-129 - from the second half of the 44 year on the Eastern Front were units. Yak-3 was created specifically for the fight against Me-109 and FV-190 of various modifications. They were the opponents of the "Yak." Prior to 4-6 km, he had complete superiority over them in terms of performance characteristics, and his weapons were quite sufficient to destroy both the "mass" and the "Fock".
    1. Dooplet11 8 August 2019 10: 26 New
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      Yes, colleague, you are right! Unlike the Germans, who have been trying for a long time to create, produce and use "universal weapons", our Air Force and Allied Air Force have a very clear "division of labor" among the wide lines of various fighter jets that have been armed, with the possibility of broader optimization of performance characteristics for the tasks to be solved.
      1. Alexey Z 8 August 2019 17: 05 New
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        Our Air Force didn’t have such problems.
  • Kostadinov 8 August 2019 11: 06 New
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    In general, I agree, but there are some comments:
    If Me.262 played its part in the war, it was precisely as an interceptor.

    A very heavy and expensive interceptor turned out. It was possible and necessary to make a single-engine cheap car.
    Indeed, the Messerschmitt Me.262A-1 Schwalbe had four 30-mm MK 108 guns, even one shell of which could send a heavy bomber to the other world. For comparison, the 20-mm German MG 151 cannon sometimes required 20-30 hits to bring down a B-17 or B-24.

    According to German data, 20 hits for 20 mm guns are average, and for 30 mm guns average 3 hits. So the ratio is not 1: 30, but 3: 20. With the 20 mm, the cannon was slightly faster than the 800: 600 shots per minute and slightly lighter. 20 mm ammunition is also lighter. So 20 mm guns could hit at least 6 in place of 4 MK 108. Then there will be 4800 shots per minute against 2400, twice as much.
    For example, the Yak-3 was armed with only one 20-mm ShVAK gun and two 12,7-mm UBS machine guns. Frankly, such weapons at 1944 year did not stand up to criticism.

    Comparison at the equivalent price of approximately 4 Yak-9 with one Me-262. Then 4 20 mm guns and 8 12,7 mm UBS with 4 30 mm MK-108. Me-4 will be a big superiority against the 262 engine bombers, but there were practically no such ones on the Eastern Front. Against the German fighters, ground attack aircraft and twin-engine bombers, the 4 Yaks will be better.
    Separately, it is worth mentioning the “unsatisfactory ballistics” of the MK 108. Critics of this gun should read the memoirs of aces of the Second World War, who preferred to hit the enemy from a minimum distance, when the "spherical maximum range in a vacuum" played almost no role. In general, by cannon fire a remote air target by default is very, very difficult. It is better to approach the enemy as close as possible.

    All the same, the 4 motor flying fortress can be hit with a slightly greater distance than the single-engine stormtrooper. But the main problem for Me-262 is their very high relative speed to the target. They are approaching the target with more than 100 meters per second. If you start shooting at 200 meters from the target and end at 100 meters, the time for shooting is only one second.
    If you slow down, but it wasn’t so easy for jet aircraft, then you’ll become Doebic for escort fighters. Therefore, in March, 1945 began to suspend the 55 mm NURS under the Me-262 krill, which went in one gulp and one hit was already enough for the B-17. But such 55 mm NURS could be suspended under single-engine fighters. So from 30 mm guns vigrish in practice did not beat.
    However, time would not have saved the Reich anyway. Gradually decrepit in the second half of the war, Germany was unable to produce aircraft at the level of the Anti-Hitler coalition by definition. And to provide them with everything necessary: ​​fuel, ammunition, etc. And, most importantly, trained pilots.

    It is true that the Me-262 and no other aircraft could save the Reich, but not because the Reich could not produce aircraft at the allied level and play a war in the air. A war in the air could not lead to a victory over the Reich, as it did not lead to a victory in Korea and Vietnam. Jet aircraft could stop, just the mass bombing of heavy bombers during the day as they managed to do in Korea. German jet aircraft beat better than Allied aircraft, their jet engines beat much cheaper than piston engines and they consumed kerosene instead of high-octane gasoline.
    The thing is that the Wehrmacht could not avoid a defeat on earth from the Red Army. In the air and at sea he could defeat, but defeat on land could not be avoided. Air and sea were only of secondary importance in the war, and the fate of the Reich was decided on earth.
    1. DimerVladimer 8 August 2019 13: 36 New
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      Quote: Kostadinov
      Jet aircraft could stop, just the mass bombing of heavy bombers during the day as they managed to do in Korea.


      Yes, allow me - North Korea simply did not have any worthy goals by the end of the war, so aviation — its mission to drive into the Stone Age — was successfully completed, albeit with losses.
      1. Crimean partisan 1974 8 August 2019 16: 37 New
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        in North Korea, there simply weren’t any worthy goals left ... even as it remained, it’s 38 parallel,
        to drive into the Stone Age ..... uh, knowers, the guys from North Korea themselves made the intercontinental and insolently already have nuclear weapons. why the Italian Greyhounds only dreamed of, even if it doesn’t fit with the Stone Age from the side of Pyongyang, it just shakes with the help of a mustache, then the anchor will cease to exist at all
        1. Revolver 8 August 2019 20: 42 New
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          I have a phone (and I am sure that many on the site) have Samsung, and the monitors are also connected to the computer. Samsung is old, I bought them more than 10 years ago, but they work fine, I won’t throw out the 24 "monitor just because it's old. In America Hyundai has the best guarantee for cars, according to everyone who evaluates such things, such as the Consumer Report and JD Power (engine and transmission up to 10 years), and who will say at least a good thread that is being done in North Korea, that you can go and buy at shop in preference to any Chinese junk, or even Japanese products?
          1. Crimean partisan 1974 9 August 2019 07: 30 New
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            what is being done in North Korea, what you can go and buy ..... all that you buy from xiaoping people is North Korean, for example, I have a Lenovo beech, Chinese, for 15 years now, and it’s somehow not getting into the trash, Toshiba TV but in the documentation "Madeinchina", BQ-phone, I don’t know whose production but it’s clearly not anchor, domestic vehicles, Niva and Priora, I’m not complaining, so they don’t measure by themselves, but this is particular, it’s better to move on to the topic
            1. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 14: 39 New
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              Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
              phone bq

              BQ is ours, components for sure China.
          2. Red_Baron 10 August 2019 14: 38 New
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            Quote: Nagan
            And who will call at least a che-thread good that is being done in North Korea, what you can go and buy in a store in preference to any Chinese junk, or even Japanese products?

            In this case, all your words are completely incorrect and not considered.
            You are talking about SHIRPOTREB from North Korea. But can you say a lot about consumer goods from the richest and most developed countries of Europe, France and Germany, which are everywhere and you can buy them everywhere? I also think you will not find much. It is just that consumer goods are produced SPECIALLY in special zones in which its production was established, capacities were built and cheap cost guaranteed. In North Korea, this was not done, but it does not mean anything at all, countries are much more backward in technical terms than North Korea produce microchips. But these are actually trifles. The main thing is not to release (do) The main thing is to bring to the market, to carry goods. But North Korea cannot have this at all, because it is not in vain that it is in a sea blockade. And one more nuance, the conquest of the market is not a matter of one day. Even if we now begin to carry consumer goods from North Korea, then it will not win its own market at once.
            So trying to compare something with her is completely wrong.
            Chinese junk is an even more monstrous statement. China can produce ANYTHING anything much better than you. You are appreciating. Chinese quality has not been inferior to European and Japanese for a long time. You understand that creating the production there, the companies themselves established both the lines and requirements and the quality assessment and so on. If we take our own Chinese development and production, then their quality is slightly lower, but not that it is not junk, but in reality it’s just a little lower and not in everything. But you don’t understand what quality is when you say that. Chinese production is served by professional workers who have been manufacturing products for many years. Manufacturers do not want to have a loss from marriage and other things. Well-known European brands are working on design and some other elements. What is logical - when delivering goods to Europe it is necessary to focus not on the Asian taste. And everything else is often the usual consequence of the influence of capitalism. YES, "communist" China has a bunch of elements of capitalism. For example, product life. When a lower operational period is laid in it technologically. Because the conditions of production under capitalism are the constant sale of products and increasing the pace of production. But this is not the Chinese trend, but the global one.
            And now about the wild China, which you are guided by. As my relative, the chief technologist of one of the domestic enterprises, remarked very accurately, “China can produce the same thing for 1 dollar and for 10”, only that you want for 1 dollar will fully correspond to the possibilities of this amount. But did you decide to level Chinese production with extremely cheap garbage? So do not use it, do not buy it, but you intentionally take a thing with specific consumer qualities, a useful life, and then claim bad China. This is original, to say the least.
            And a little about Japan. Once upon a time, Japan was a producer of consumer goods as China is now. And then there was a stable term - Japanese garbage.
    2. DimerVladimer 8 August 2019 13: 47 New
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      Quote: Kostadinov
      But the main problem for the Me-262 is their very high relative speed to the target. They are approaching the target with more than 100 meters per second.


      Taking into account the tactics of battle Me-262, the first attack on the forehead, turn and attack on a catch-up course: in the first case, the approach speed is even higher. But the shooters didn’t have time to respond with accurate fire, but Me-262 hits were much more likely - a great interceptor!
    3. Alexey Z 8 August 2019 17: 07 New
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      Impossible to read. Can you somehow through a translator?
  • 123456789 8 August 2019 11: 14 New
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    Quote: Horse, people and soul
    Maybe this form of my protest will push the administration to clearly formulate repressive rules.

    Resentment, yes there is, was punished "for obscene", despite the fact that in principle I never express myself with obscenities. From the word never.

    Just someone who frivolously interprets the rules.

    I’m not sure that any of the words used above is not obscene in VO.

    Easier to switch to another site
    Moreover, there are only a dozen of us, judging by the number +/-
    And in VO, the "crisis of the genre" has long had three articles on one topic, one more beautiful ...
    1. 123456789 8 August 2019 20: 14 New
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      in August 1944 - at the very moment when the 262nd appeared in the army, the young Romanian king Mihai arrested the head of the government of Marshal Antonescu and Romania turned from Germany’s ally into her adversary. Oil from Romania, which had previously fed the German refineries, ceased to flow, and if tanks and cars could still drive gasoline obtained from coal using the Fischer-Tropsch method, the kerosene required for turbojet engines could not be obtained from coal. The German aircraft industry could still produce jet aircraft: by the beginning of 1945, the German aircraft industry produced 36 aircraft a week. However, due to lack of fuel, they remained on the ground and became trophies of the Red Army and the Allied armies.
  • itvs 8 August 2019 12: 23 New
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    The author for the article is a fat minus. After graduation battleship sracha there was nothing worthy to be remembered for years. And lo and behold! Kaptsov gives a gorgeous pass, Skomorokhov accepts and develops !!! Hurray Long live Messer srach !!!!! Kaptsova read twice and in one breath. Oh, what a syllable! And what is a retaliatory strike! Even the name itself, it must be so elegant under%; "displacement maxnumx" :))) here really neighing several times in the text. And most importantly, the retaliatory strike did not kill the topic, but adequately raised the Messer Srach to a new level! Ah! What could be the answer from Chelyabinsk :))) But here is like a bucket of cold water on a flaming fire of hope Legat's article: (((in fact, of course, there’s nothing to argue with, but I broke off all the buzz. I’ll read again Ryabov’s article, inflated like balls, which in fact, they can fit in two paragraphs.
    1. DimerVladimer 8 August 2019 13: 32 New
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      Quote: itvs
      ) here really neighing several times in the text. And most importantly, the retaliatory strike did not kill the topic, but adequately raised the Messer Srach to a new level


      And I'm sad because one Kaptsov made fun of the audience, counting on a lot of criticism and the frenzied popularity of his opus (which happened). Other authors, no less amateurs, entered the fray, publishing their opinions and sometimes broadcasting nonsense, but all this looks a pity and unworthy of a serious resource. Although publications on a par with Samsonov's opuses are no longer surprising on this resource.
      Degradation.
    2. fighter angel 8 August 2019 15: 32 New
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      itvs:
      So I already said that I went "delirious battle" to VO.
      Let's go guys!
      Let's make some noise, make some noise ...
  • Pavel57 8 August 2019 13: 19 New
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    And did Germany have a goal after 1943 victory in the war?
  • DimerVladimer 8 August 2019 13: 20 New
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    Perform horizontal bombing at a speed of, say, 700 kilometers per hour, without any sighting devices, and hit the target is an almost impossible task. Something, of course, succeeded, but Me.262A-2 is definitely not the best weapon of victory, but the fruit of Hitler's escapism, to which the Führer was too susceptible in the last years of the war.



    The author does not mind that the MiG-15bis turned out to be the most suitable for strike aviation as a subsonic aircraft (130 MiG-15bis) and was used for a long time in the USSR Air Force units in the 60s as a fighter-bomber and for launching assault strikes?
    Aircraft manufactured in Czechoslovakia had one pylon BD2-48 or BDZ-58 for external suspensions under the wing planes, aircraft produced in the USSR - two. The range of outboard weapons includes OFAB-100M bombs. PROSAB-100, AO-50, TBU-70 and SSP-70. Pylons are equipped with an electric suspension reset mechanism. Airplanes that were in the arsenal of the Soviet Union Air Force, in addition, could carry unguided air-to-surface missiles ARS-212 (C-21) on a combination of intermediate pylons APU-O-EKSR-46 and pylons D-46, which were mounted from the outside main landing gear.


    And the MiG-15bis did not have the corresponding bomb sights, which did not prevent them from being sufficiently effective attack aircraft in the arsenal of the USSR Air Force, until specialized machines equipped with sighting systems appeared (MiG-23UB Su-24 Su-25, etc.)

    I would urge all authors to think first, before broadcasting errors.
    1. Pavel57 8 August 2019 13: 45 New
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      The example of the MiG-15 as a strike is not the best - just Khrushchev’s hijacking of aircraft did not leave a choice for the role of a strike aircraft in the battlefield.
      1. DimerVladimer 8 August 2019 13: 59 New
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        Quote: Pavel57
        The example of the MiG-15 as a strike is not the best - just Khrushchev’s hijacking of aircraft did not leave a choice for the role of a strike aircraft in the battlefield.


        That did not detract from the merits of the MiG-15bis as a strike aircraft.
        The cliche of the impossibility of an accurate bomb strike from a jet aircraft is replicated from time to time.
      2. Dooplet11 8 August 2019 14: 19 New
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        This is not about the best attack aircraft, but about the possibility of accurately bombing from a high-speed fighter. From the "Manual on the piloting and combat use of the MiG-17":

        This is for bombing from the horizon. There is also a section on bombing from a gentle dive.
        1. DimerVladimer 9 August 2019 10: 32 New
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          Quote: Dooplet11
          It's not about the best attack aircraft, but about the possibility of aiming bombing from a high-speed fighter


          That's right, similarly to the markings on the hood of the IL-2, aiming was carried out for bombing.
          Taking a lead in speed is not a difficult navigation task.
          Yes, it’s problematic to get into a point target, but to put bombs in the area of ​​the area target or in the area of ​​the convoy is quite possible for a jet plane.

          The author’s assumption shows that he is not familiar with the post-war tactics of jet strike aircraft, which raises doubts about him as an expert in aviation.
          1. Dooplet11 9 August 2019 10: 45 New
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            He is probably not particularly familiar with the tactics of the war.
            In various documents and works devoted to the design and combat use of the IL-2 attack aircraft, a device under the name “VMSh-2” is often referred to as the “Temporary Attack Mechanism”:

            So what is VMSh-2:

            What tasks does:

            The idea embedded in this device is quite simple - it consists in the fact that for a certain initial position of the attack aircraft relative to the target, it is possible to calculate in advance the time after which it is necessary to drop a bomb or a series of bombs, ensuring the defeat of this target. The initial position of the attack aircraft is set by a certain height, speed and angle of sight at the target through a conventional rifle scope. At the moment of returning to the starting position, the pilot launches the NMS, he counts out the set time delay and provides either one impulse or a series of impulses at the pilot's choice to the electric ejector mechanism (ESBR-ZP). ESBR-ZP, in turn, provides a drop of either one bomb or salvos of two or four bombs for each incoming pulse, depending on its setting.
            The bombing technique is described in the notes of the attack pilot. Hero of the Soviet Union Guard Captain V. Emelianenko, NPO, 1944
  • Kostadinov 8 August 2019 15: 13 New
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    Quote: DimerVladimer
    Quote: Kostadinov
    Jet aircraft could stop, just the mass bombing of heavy bombers during the day as they managed to do in Korea.


    Yes, allow me - North Korea simply did not have any worthy goals by the end of the war, so aviation — its mission to drive into the Stone Age — was successfully completed, albeit with losses.

    I allow, but the daytime masks of the bombing using the B-29 ceased in October 1951, despite the fact that several fighter jets were hit several times more than bombers and, therefore, the Americans themselves said, not Korea.
    But other flights continued without stopping - although the goals "did not hit."
    There were no goals left, the enemy drove into the stone age, and the war was never played. The enemy "threw" stones at them so that they had to sign a truce without surrendering the enemy - for the first time in US history (this is also a civilian general claimed).
    1. DimerVladimer 12 August 2019 09: 38 New
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      Quote: Kostadinov
      There were no goals left, the enemy drove into the stone age, and the war was never played. The enemy "threw" stones at them so that they had to sign a truce without surrendering the enemy - for the first time in US history (this is also a civilian general claimed).


      Moreover, no one won the war - neither the Chinese "volunteers" (the North Korean army was defeated long before the Chinese units entered), nor the American "UN forces."
      Both sides did not have the strength to attack in the current situation - a stalemate.

      I happened to communicate with a participant in that war - a "Chinese volunteer."
      They couldn’t even put their nose out of the trenches - they were constantly bombarded by artillery and aircraft bombed.
      The superiority in the infantry of the northerners was offset by the overwhelming superiority of the southerners in artillery and aircraft.

      Well, for the American army this was not the last defeat - Vietnam is even more humiliating defeat for the United States.
  • Kostadinov 8 August 2019 15: 25 New
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    Quote: DimerVladimer
    Quote: Kostadinov
    But the main problem for the Me-262 is their very high relative speed to the target. They are approaching the target with more than 100 meters per second.


    Taking into account the tactics of battle Me-262, the first attack on the forehead, turn and attack on a catch-up course: in the first case, the approach speed is even higher. But the shooters didn’t have time to respond with accurate fire, but Me-262 hits were much more likely - a great interceptor!

    An attack on the forehead is an approach speed of approximately 400 meters per second. If you need to turn away half a second before the collision, then the minimum distance is 200 meters. Start at 400 meters and finish at 200 meters then the time for shooting is half a second. The probability of getting such that only mindless consumption of ammunition will be.
  • NF68 8 August 2019 16: 21 New
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    In order for the Me-262 to really benefit Germany, albeit with numerous flaws in engines like the Jumo 004, the Germans had to produce Me-262 not in a hundred or two, but in thousands.
  • Crimean partisan 1974 8 August 2019 17: 27 New
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    Hochma on the "swallow". read about the pilot Kurt Velter and you will understand that if the 262nd would go into production in 1942, then it would be nice if nobody would. moreover, it was lucky for the whole world that Galland was not an addict to Goering. and instead of the architect milch would be Rommel and the commander of the Luftwaffe, Joseph Camhuber ........ then the story would be different. and I'm personally glad that this did not work out. and I’m also glad that at the moment the defense ministers, the cheroops of the woman, are incompetent
    1. Revolver 8 August 2019 20: 24 New
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      Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
      and I’m also glad that at the moment the defense ministers, the cheroops of the woman, are incompetent

      My friend and I are not up to the booze,
      My friend and I <moderated>.
      wink
    2. geologist 8 August 2019 20: 57 New
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      Goering, of course, causes antipathy, like an enemy, but we must admit that he was a talented pilot, at one time, and we would also have to look for such among the air ministers in other countries. He knew no worse than others that the probability of the successful use of Me 262 beyond some sort of calculations, and that the situation did not allow conducting military tests. Therefore, when Galland threw into his eyes something like our catch phrase; "we fly on coffins", and it is better to produce Mustangs, instead of Messers - Goering kicked him out of the meeting. Galland preferred the Swallows cockpit to futile meetings, but even his skill didn’t solve anything. However, Messerschmidt already had a plane in metal, similar to the MiG15 or Saber with variable sweep. The Germans almost felt for the design of a successful fighter jet, but fortunately for us the war ended.
    3. Red_Baron 11 August 2019 03: 34 New
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      Photo amazing: D
  • Revolver 8 August 2019 20: 21 New
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    The extra pair of thousands of Me-262 would not have saved Germany, although the roofs of Soviet and especially allied crews would have drunk a lot. But even the one and only special warhead mounted on the V-2, and having pulled London off the ground in 1942, could well have been. The Allies would have been scared, because it was "one for all in the USSR, we won’t stand the price," and the British and Americans have the term "unacceptable losses." Because if the Germans threw one vigorous bomb, they can (even if only hypothetically) and more! And Goebbels would have screamed all over the air that they are launching rockets and warheads in large numbers like sausages, and that the squadrons of America-bombers are just waiting for the command to take off. Although the Allies would not have fought on the side of Germany themselves (or we could have begun, under nuclear blackmail!), But even the cessation of the bombing and the redirection of Lend-Lease supplies from the USSR to Germany could change the balance of power.
    But this did not happen for several completely subjective reasons. Firstly, Hitler’s arrogant order to ban all research and development work, which will not bring results within a year (he still hoped to end the USSR within a year); it slowed down and V-2, and the same Me-262. And secondly, the persecution of such as Einstein and Lisa Meitner for non-Aryan origin. Hitler himself, which is called do-it-yourself, beheaded the physics of Germany.
    However, if Hitler did not concentrate with the perseverance of the maniac on national issues, he would not be the cannibal with whom he went down in history.
  • rubin6286 8 August 2019 22: 19 New
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    I believe that the use of the Me-262 as a bomber could have a significant impact on the course of the war only if it had bomb weapons that excel in destructive force everything that had been created before and which was absent from the enemy.
    All types of armed forces and types of troops are divided into those that directly engage in battle in a particular theater of operations (motorized rifle, tank, artillery) and those who provide the solution to their assigned tasks (communications troops, air defense, fleet, aviation, engineering, pipeline, railway and so on.).
    When deciding on preparations for war, the country's military and political leadership takes maximum account of their own capabilities and the capabilities of the enemy, and implements a number of priority measures prior to the outbreak of hostilities.

    In the past war, by 1942, the leader of the Reich, it became clear that the blitzkrieg failed and in the future the country has a war on two fronts, for which she is not ready. At a meeting with scientists and industrialists, Hitler spoke out in the sense that we should think about new weapons that will allow us to achieve victory in the war. Priority should be given to those types of weapons, the use of which will give effect no later than six months after entering the troops. The Wehrmacht will last a maximum of a year, and then .... In simple terms, it was necessary to prioritize correctly, and it was not by chance that Hitler viewed the Me-262 primarily as a “shell bomb”. The Germans came close to creating nuclear weapons and would probably use them. The first American bomb dropped on Hiroshima weighed 4,5 tons and had a TNT equivalent of 20 Kt. The modern nuclear bomb Mk61 weighs 250-300 Kg and is 10 times more powerful. The Me-262 could take 2 bombs of 250 kg on an external sling and turn into a nuclear bomber. 10 planes in one sortie could “knock out” England from the war, 50 planes did away with Russia. The game was worth the candle and it was a small matter - to create a powerful and compact weapon, which at that time no one had. There are many opinions on this subject in the literature, but the fact remains that it was not possible to do this for various reasons, however, the carriers (Me-262, FAU-2 missiles were already available to the Germans by 1944).
    1. Crimean partisan 1974 9 August 2019 06: 58 New
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      Me-262, FAU-2 missiles, the Germans already had by 1944 ........ Me-262 was already in 1942 and there were personnel for piloting (the most successful Schwalbe pilots are precisely those who previously piloted the FV-190 ) and at the time of 1942 they were in abundance, and you can only imagine what would have happened with the “1000 Haris bombers” if (at the time of 42 years) all FIVE SCREWERS OF NIGHT FIGHTERS were equipped with swabbages and this is almost 500 aircraft, I already mentioned more than once, Kurt Welter piled 40 bombers in 30 sorties. it’s simply incredible efficiency, so already in the 42nd there was an opportunity to neutralize the Saxon bombing aircraft completely, and there you can already calmly engage in nuclear warfare and interplanetary missiles, it’s possible to slow down the tank cams on the eastern front
      1. rubin6286 9 August 2019 13: 07 New
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        ",,, already in the 42nd there was an opportunity to neutralize the Saxon bombing aircraft completely, and there you can already calmly engage in nuclear warfare and interplanetary rockets, it’s possible to slow down the armored fist tanks on the eastern front"

        Sergei!

        I think that in 1942 there were people in the Luftwaffe high command who were much more literate and competent, technically and tactically, than you.

        The night raids of the RAF in 1942 did not pose a serious danger to Germany, and Me-110G, Yu-88G6, Do-17, etc.

        For a more complete picture of the organization of German air defense in the past war, the fighting of German night fighters and Allied bombers, I recommend reading the following books:
        1.M. Zefirov of the Luftwaffe. Night fighters,
        Moscow, AST LLC, 2001
        2.K.Knoke “I flew for the Fuhrer. Officer's Diary
        Luftwaffe 1939-1945 "
        Moscow, Centerpolygraph, 2003
        3. V. Jonen “Night squadrons of the Luftwaffe. Notes
        German pilot
        Moscow, Centerpolygraph, 2004
        4.M. Howard “Great strategy.
        August 1942-September 1943 "
        Moscow, Military Publishing House, 1980
        5. A. Galland "The first and last. German fighters on
        Western Front 1941-1945.
        Moscow, Centerpolygraph, 2003
        6. A. Kesselring "Luftwaffe: triumph and defeat.
        Memoirs of Field Marshal of the Third Reich
        1933-1947 »
        Moscow, Centerpolygraph, 2003
        7.J Hersey, “He Who Loved the War”
        Moscow, Foreign Literature, 1983
        8. D. Richards, H. Saunders “The British Air Force in World War 2”
        1. Crimean partisan 1974 9 August 2019 18: 23 New
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          competent and competent ....... firstly I am Vladimir. secondly, who was there in the 42nd at the head of the Reich was there so competent and competent in armament and tactics ..... drug addict Goering? architect Milch? sectarian maniac Himler? head of the RSHA butcher calterbrunner ?? drug Udet? WHO?????
          of all that you offer, only M.Zefirov of the Luftwaffe is sensible. Night fighters,
          Moscow, AST LLC, 2001, by the way, I bought this book in the same year,
          therefore I rely on people who sniffed archival dust and not on the emotions of the authors of memoirs
          1. rubin6286 9 August 2019 21: 27 New
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            Vladimir! I apologize for the confusion with the name. After all. try reading these books. I hope you will be interested. Neither Himmler nor Kaltenbrunner have anything to do with OKL - Oberkommando Luftwaffe (the main command of the Luftwaffe), they are SS people and Reich security services. They say that there are no absolutely healthy people, but there are underexplored people, so it is hardly appropriate to label people possessing authority, even enemies. Leave this to the doctors, because then the incomplete pop, tyrant and paranoid Stalin, a drunkard and a dumbass can follow Khrushchev, the depraved Kalinin and Beria, the power-hungry and bloodthirsty Zhukov, the flattering A.A. Zhdanov, the mediocre and stupid marshals Eremenko, Tolbukhin, Meretskov and so on. See how far things can go. History judges not by the state of people's health, but by their specific cases.
            1. Crimean partisan 1974 10 August 2019 00: 43 New
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              nothing to do with OKL - on my own, you can end your apologies once and for all in reprinting with me, the topic of debate is important. Duc here just RSHA had a direct relationship to everything. to remind that the Gestapo had only one department from the nomenclature in this organization !!!! the RSA also had a foreign intelligence department, I won’t mess up the name but it was Schshelinberg along the way, it was very competent that the secret plane was forced to take off the territory of Switzerland to withdraw cool their nae .... so discussing about the fact that the RSHA had nothing to do with it is just stupid
              1. rubin6286 10 August 2019 01: 18 New
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                Vladimir!
                In any war, everyone does his own thing: his army, his own security agencies and each one responsible for his own, does not interfere with each other, and if necessary helps .. This is what I wanted to say in my previous comment.
                1. Crimean partisan 1974 10 August 2019 01: 31 New
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                  Vilenych, so it’s so, BUT, the sky over Korea covered only TWO air divisions (by the standards of the Luftwaffe these are two squadrons) and were able to defend 38 parallel, and so far it is called not “duck hunting” but menacingly and respectfully ALEJA MIGOV, given the Reich’s potential in 1942 in 5 night squadrons and 4 day fighter squadrons could easily overwhelm the Saxons, but cadres decide everything, and drug addicts are also headed
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Kostadinov 9 August 2019 11: 02 New
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    Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
    Hochma on the "swallow". read about the pilot Kurt Velter and you will understand that if the 262nd would go into production in 1942, then it would be nice if nobody would. moreover, it was lucky for the whole world that Galland was not an addict to Goering. and instead of the architect milch would be Rommel and the commander of the Luftwaffe, Joseph Camhuber ........ then the story would be different. and I'm personally glad that this did not work out. and I’m also glad that at the moment the defense ministers, the cheroops of the woman, are incompetent

    1. One cannot say about Frau Von der Layen that she is incompetent in military equipment. And as a woman, she showed herself with the best side - seven children.
    2. In 1942, the Me-262 could not go into the series because its engine was brought to an acceptable state only in 1944.
    3. The problem of German military equipment in World War II is not personalities. Goering commander of the squadron Richthofen in World War I. To his industrialists and engineers, he gave as an example Yakovlev fighters - how to make weapons for the war. Hitler himself spoke in conversation with the Bulgarian Minister of Defense in January 1943 - we must learn from the Russians how to make weapons. Our wisdom engineers, he said, do everything "beautiful", and the Russians are rude, but they are doing their job well. He did not understand that while the Germans will always have capitalism this way - striving for maximum profit always gives an expensive and ineffective product.
    1. Crimean partisan 1974 10 August 2019 01: 14 New
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      1. About Frau Von der Layen ...... a disgrace made of the Bundesfer and the Bundesfaff, well, so-so nothing. the norms
      2. In 1942, the Me-262 could not go into series because its engine was brought to an acceptable state only in 1944. .... do not lie to yourself the most important thing and don’t mix it with others, the trash was flown in 1942 successfully, the only flutter problem was an edge and surging, but it was not possible to solve them, the only instructions appeared were to avoid these phenomena
      3. The problem of German military equipment in the Second World War is not personalities ..... ithio trio !!!!!!! it is a pity that we have screens and monitors that are not teleport
  • Pavel57 9 August 2019 13: 56 New
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    After the 43rd, the task of Germany was not to win the war, but to end it (with defeat) no earlier than 1945 in order to bring values ​​to Switzerland and restore industry to them (I will immediately write that the share of the Marshall plan in rebuilding Germany was 7% or so.
  • Kostadinov 12 August 2019 10: 57 New
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    Quote: Crimean partisan 1974
    1. About Frau Von der Layen ...... a disgrace made of the Bundesfer and the Bundesfaff, well, so-so nothing. the norms
    2. In 1942, the Me-262 could not go into series because its engine was brought to an acceptable state only in 1944. .... do not lie to yourself the most important thing and don’t mix it with others, the trash was flown in 1942 successfully, the only flutter problem was an edge and surging, but it was not possible to solve them, the only instructions appeared were to avoid these phenomena
    3. The problem of German military equipment in the Second World War is not personalities ..... ithio trio !!!!!!! it is a pity that we have screens and monitors that are not teleport

    1. I wrote just that she is versed in military technology.
    2. The disgrace of the German army did and do all the governments of Germany for many decades. Not a minister of defense.
    3. No, it’s expensive - the problem of resonance at maximum revolutions has been beaten and it’s necessary to understand what is happening and why and how to deal with it. In addition, there was a problem with replacing scarce materials in the turbine and it was solved by cooling the blades with air, but for this it was necessary to create and test new blades. This all took time. The engine of use in 1942 could not be mass-produced by the German industry.
    4. The problem of the inefficiency of the weapons of the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe is not the identity of Goering, Hitler, or anyone else, although no one has canceled their personal responsibility about German policy and strategy.
  • Jarserge 29 September 2019 16: 55 New
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    How much you can "chew" the same thing. It is clear that the Me-262 was a crude, unfinished machine and launching it in a series of complete idiocy, another thing is that the most important thing - the Hitler regime did not have time
  • Sergey11 April 15 2020 05: 03 New
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    Now you can already try to fly this machine in the IL-2 Sturmovik. Try how she actually behaved, at least virtually. 262 is a great car with its own advantages and disadvantages. The author told everything correctly, although here it was possible to write a whole book.
    Well, I can say one thing to the haters who are now attacking me - to press the keys not to turn the bags, take your mustangs, yaks, benches, are sleeping and will meet in the sky, albeit virtual.