South Ossetia. The origins of genocide politics

100-year anniversary of the 1918-1920 genocide. 08.08.08 figures are almost mystical. As soon as you turn the figure eight by 90 degrees, an infinity sign will appear in front of us. The Caucasian wars really seem endless. In the 2008 year, the Georgian troops launched an operation against South Ossetia under the cynical name “Clean Field”. The very name of the operation was the quintessence of the whole desire of the nationalist-minded Georgian forces towards an independent neighbor. According to the Tbilisi plan, the land of South Ossetia should have been completely cleared of ethnic Ossetians. But back to a hundred years ago.


South Ossetia. The origins of genocide politics


The origins of hatred


For a long time, Georgian princes tried to get Ossetians into serfs. And they hoped to do this in the Russian Empire with the hands of Russians. So, the princes Eristov-Ksansky repeatedly submitted their petitions claiming the Ossetian lands to the Russian command in the Caucasus. In 1831, after the next petition, the Caucasian governor Count Ivan Paskevich instructed the college assessors Kozachkovsky and Yanovsky to conduct a study of this petition, after which a corresponding note was drawn up:
“In gorges more distant, like those of Magrandolet, Tliy, Chapransky, Gvidisk, Knotsky and others, for which the Eristovs claim, there are no signs of their management. Before the conquest by our troops of the Ossetians, living in these gorges, they represented a model of primitive peoples. They had only family ties; in the villages and gorges there was absolutely no order and obedience; everyone able to wear weapon considered himself completely independent. ”



Ivan Paskevich


But this did not in the least stop the growing appetites of the Georgian princes, who literally bombarded the command with various documents, allegedly confirming their rights not only to land, but also to people. Princes from the Machabeli clan joined the Eristovs. In reality, these “documents” had no weight. Count Paskevich himself became interested in the question, writing the following:
“Meanwhile, although these decisions gave the princes of Eristov landowner rights over their estates, in general Ossetian villages were never in their possession. All the rights of them and other landowners over Ossetians were limited by the fact that not one of these people dared to appear in the bazaars and in the villages of Kartlini (Kartli, Kartalinsky kingdom. - Approx. Auth.) Without being completely robbed of the so-called landowners ; some of these latter even built fortified castles in tight gorges, past which no Ossetian could pass without risking losing all their property; under various pretexts, they took Ossetian children and then sold them in different hands. ”


Moreover, if the Ossetians were serfs of the Georgian princes legally, then why did the above-mentioned princes themselves not return their obedience? It's simple: numerous military expeditions against Ossetians could rarely be called at least somehow successful. So, in 1817, one of the princes of Eristov made a campaign against "his" peasants. As a result, he lost 400 people and returned without salty slurping. The Georgians needed Russian soldiers to bite off someone else's piece. At the same time, the Ossetians themselves claimed that they were ready to pay any taxes to the Russian Tsar, but never to the Georgians.


Ossetian peasants near the church of St. George the Victorious


Emperor Nicholas I put a point in the dispute, tired of endless petitions and complaints from Georgian princes. He signed a special decree according to which all residents of South Ossetia were transferred to the category of state, i.e. state peasants. To encroach on exploitation or force such citizens to pay taxes - go against the emperor. With all their pride, the Georgian princes were forced to reconcile.

Revolution and old wounds


The bloody winds of the revolution of the beginning of the 20 century in Russia gave rise to a real explosion of the birth of various quasi-states in the Caucasus: there was the Mountain Republic, the Kuban People’s Republic, the Transcaucasian Democratic Federal Republic, and the Georgian Democratic Republic, and God knows what else. In this chaos, Georgia, once loyal to the crown, instantly demanded independence. The emperor was no more, and again it was possible to claim his rights to South Ossetia. And since serfdom was abolished long ago, the population was no longer required.


Bolshevik Philip Makharadze


Ossetians offered the political leaders of Georgia, the Mensheviks (who in reality were terry nationalists), a dialogue about the right to autonomy in order to preserve their culture and language. Here is how the ethnic Georgian and Bolshevik Philip Makharadze writes about those events:
“Almost from the very first day the divine“ independent ”Georgian state was born, the Mensheviks enter into open conflict with the Ossetian people. The Mensheviks did not want to hear about autonomy for Ossetians. Ossetia must forget about this autonomy, it must go into the framework of Georgian statehood, it must recognize the sovereignty and great power of the Georgian people, Ossetians must refuse to use their language in school, in business relations, etc. ”


In the first days of March of the 1918 year, punitive Georgian troops led by the Menshevik Kosta Kazishvili and George Machabeli invaded South Ossetia. The last representative at the time of the yet not declared Georgian “republic” should be highlighted, because he is a descendant of the very same princely family of Machabeli, who claimed his rights to own Ossetian peasants and their lands.


South Ossetian Bolsheviks in Tskhinval


The first battle took place near the village of Archnet, when the Georgians captured a dozen Ossetian hostages. The battle with the Ossetian detachment of "separatists" was short-lived. Not expecting such agility from their "property", the Georgians fled, and the hostages were released. The expedition of Kazishvili and Machabeli found shelter in the Georgian village of Ered.

Gathering strength, the Georgian squad 18 March marched towards Tskhinval. Soon, a rally was organized in the suburban village of Drgvis Kazishvili, scolding Russia for "occupation" and accusing the Ossetians of indulging the enemy. The rally was also attended by the Union of Revolutionary Peasantry, led by Ossetian Georgy Kulumbegov, under whose command there were 300 bayonets of rebel residents. Dialogue did not work, and the scuffle quickly escalated into a shootout. Tskhinvali was covered by hostilities, during which they didn’t use artillery. With a machine-gun fire, the Georgians managed to drive out the armed groups of Ossetians from the city, while capturing Kulumbegov.

The leaders of the Union of Peasants were planned to be shot at dawn. But in the morning, fighting broke out on the outskirts of the city. By the evening of 19 on March, Ossetian detachments, which is indicative, supported by some local Bolshevik Georgians, broke into the capital of the republic. The streets of the southern city were strewn with corpses. Many Georgians were surrendered, and the leaders died in street battles, including the failed owner of the Ossetian peasants, Machabeli.


A painting by Azanbek Dzhanaev dedicated to the events of 1918-1920


Despite the victory, the situation of the Ossetian armed forces was difficult. There was not enough ammunition, and most importantly, there were no human resources. Let me remind you that at that moment in all of South Ossetia there were no more than 80 thousand people, including old people, women and children. But the population of Georgia has exceeded 2 million. Thus, the rebels even had less rounds of ammunition than the newly made Georgia soldier.

Already on 22 of March of the 1918 of the year, large units of the Georgian troops, bearing the name of the “People’s Guard”, approached Tskhinval. Realizing the senselessness of the defense of the city, Ossetian forces, with the cover of the few troops remaining in Tskhinvali, retreated to the mountains. The fighting in the city did not last long. Almost all captured Ossetians were shot, only the brave but unlucky Kulumbegov was again captured and taken to Gori.

The surviving rebels who had gone to the mountains, taking advantage of the time conquered by the deaths of their comrades, were able to organize defense in a narrow mountain gorge in the Dzau region. The place was chosen so well that all attempts to take the Ossetians by storm failed. As a result, 28 March, the Georgians went to a temporary truce.


Tskhinval of the 20-30 of the last century


The Menshevik government of Georgia, which was unable to solve any state issues, except for the choice of a new patron and repressions based on ethnic and political principles, was shook by the ground under its feet. Firstly, Kaiser Germany could no longer act as the new owner, and it was urgent to swear allegiance to the Entente. Secondly, the economy was bursting at the seams. Thirdly, the Bolsheviks did not doze off, whom the nationalists in the guise of the Mensheviks feared like fire. Fourth, the outright incapacity of the government caused a series of peasant uprisings. But that was only the beginning.

To be continued ...
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  1. Tatyana 9 August 2019 03: 50 New
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    An interesting and important historical and political article. I wait from the author for its continuation.
    1. Proxima 9 August 2019 10: 57 New
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      I wonder where historically the Georgians have such a great power arrogance? This is a nation with relatively young statehood. When, for example, the Armenian kingdom (a) existed, then Georgians were still climbing trees with clubs. Moreover, at the end of the 18th century, Georgians, as an ethnos, already disappeared from the forefront of History, and only the intervention of Catherine the Great and subsequent emperors stopped this process. The question is, what else is needed? Live and rejoice? And read your Shota Rustaveli in the original text! No! It is necessary to arrange genocide! We “had the honor” to see the echo of these genocides quite recently in Abkhazia and in South Ossetia.
      1. Goral 10 August 2019 00: 13 New
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        Ahem, dear, before you blurt out the stupidity, read the material. The vast majority of linguists point to the Balkan origin of the Armenian language and native speakers of this language. The appearance and migration of the ancestors of the Armenians is linked with the migration of the peoples of the sea to Anatolia, the decline of the Hets kingdom, the subsequent advance of the Proto-Armenian tribes to the east and the settlement of the historical kingdom of Urartu, which had nothing to do with the Armenians. Only after the decline of Urartu (8th century BC) did the proto-Armenian tribes in the territory of the former Uratu come to the fore and gradually succeed in consolidating the statues of the Urartians and other non-Indo-European peoples around themselves, while simultaneously transmitting their language to them. Well, the first Armenian state formations arise .... correctly in the 2nd century. BC e. after the collapse of the Achaemenid state, the state of Alexander, and later the Seleucid state, although the Persians mention Armenia as early as the 6th century. BC e.
        What are Georgians doing at this time? Oh yes, although they climb with clubs and trees, but much earlier than the Armenians manage to create the whole Colchis Kingdom, where even the Argonauts swam - as much as half a millennium before the first Armenian kingdoms arose. And in eastern Georgia, at the turn of the 3rd and 2nd centuries, the same (eastern) Georgian tribes, of course also with clubs and animal skins, create the kingdom of Iberia ;-)) Savage these Georgians, where they are to the Armenians ....
        1. Proxima 10 August 2019 17: 28 New
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          You write nonsense. What does the Colchis Kingdom have to do with Georgians? The fact that it was located on the territory of modern Georgia? The Bosporus kingdom was located on the territory of modern Russia, so what? The same can be said about Iberia. Ask who are the citizens of this state by nationality? What was their writing? And when did Georgian writing appear? - rightly, only in the Christian era. And about a truly real, independent state formation - this is the reign of Bagrat the Third (11th century AD). As you can see, the formation of writing and statehood is “a bit” later than that of the Armenians.
          1. Oquzyurd 11 August 2019 17: 12 New
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            The Armenian script is copied from the writing of the Ethiopians. That is, they altered the Ethiopian alphabet and gave it away as their own.
            1. Yuri 11 August 2019 20: 21 New
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              You would have to learn the “Russian” script before discussing which one is “copied” with which
              1. Oquzyurd 11 August 2019 20: 53 New
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                But this does not cancel the fact that the Ethiopian alphabet was stolen by the Armenians. And try, in addition to your native language, learn a couple of languages ​​grammatically, then make claims to others.
                1. Yuri 11 August 2019 21: 15 New
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                  In addition to my native language, with a different degree of “grammar”, from impeccable to completely acceptable, I speak four other languages. And the postulate on the borrowing of some characters of the Armenian alphabet from Ethiopian is not supported by almost any of the researchers and is a rather sluggish reason to release a little fetid poison in the Armenian direction
                  1. Oquzyurd 11 August 2019 21: 50 New
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                    The world-famous Ethiopian political scientist, professor, author of many books and a researcher of the heritage of Ethiopian emperors, Professor Tekola Hagos: I was simply struck by the fact that the Armenians so skillfully, shamelessly, cynically and unscrupulously distorted historical facts. I was just in shock when I first picked up some book written in Armenian. At first I thought it was in Ethiopian, since the letters were from our ancient alphabet. Perplexedly flipped through this book in a language incomprehensible to me, and before my eyes the ancient copies of one of the most ancient alphabets in the world - Ethiopian - came to life. It was a copy of the letters that our ancestors wrote thousands of years ago. I almost screamed in surprise and showed these letters to my friend, a historian from Addis Ababa University. He smiled and said to me: “Didn’t you know? When we stopped writing with our letters, the Armenians presented them to the whole world as the Armenian alphabet. I devoted some of my lectures to this topic at the university. World science knows that this is the Ethiopian alphabet but the Armenians propagandize it to the whole world as their own. ”It was this fact of impudent theft of our national alphabet that prompted me to conduct a new study and collect additional facts. The arrogance of the Armenians, it turns out, has no boundaries. In my new book, I will expose this lie, and the whole world will know about this vile attempt of Armenian historians to kidnap the scientific and cultural heritage of another people.
                    1. Yuri 12 August 2019 02: 56 New
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                      Hmm, the whole world just held its breath in anticipation of your new book. Without you to understand, for example, looking at the graphics, he is not able
                      1. Goral 12 August 2019 22: 29 New
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                        I am wildly sorry, but the fact of a purely external (but not identical in sound transmission) similarity of a whole series of letters of the Epiphyan and Armenian letters is known to everyone. It is strange that you were so surprised at this. It’s another matter that who influenced whom and how this influence acted even at a distance of several thousand kilometers .... all this is difficult to prove, although the most real of all speculations would be the assumption of contacts between Axumite and Armenian clergy on the promised land.
                      2. Yuri 13 August 2019 00: 10 New
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                        Maybe. And the outward resemblance of some signs is really striking. However, it is the partiality and superficiality of this similarity that explains the fact that few researchers see any signs of borrowing. While the continuity to the Aramaic letter or to the Pahlavi, apparently, is not disputed by anyone
                      3. Goral 14 August 2019 21: 30 New
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                        There is no continuity, but the influence of both Pahlavi and Aramaic as well as Greek is unequivocal. As the way, and in Georgian letter
            2. Butchcassidy 13 August 2019 16: 13 New
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              This widespread opinion in Baku about the common origin of the written language of Armenians and Ethiopians is a rare nonsense, which is believed only by those who willfully study the subject “Heydar Aliyev’s legacy” at school. Ethiopian writing type "abugida", Armenian - type "alphabet". Common between them as between heaven and earth.
      2. Goral 11 August 2019 22: 36 New
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        Again twenty-five ... The very question "what does the Colchis kingdom / Iberia have to do with Georgians" honestly takes away any motivation from further discussion with an opponent. But I will overpower myself and answer. Yes, it has a direct relation. Starting from the uninterrupted kinship of archaeological cultures on the territory of western / eastern Georgia and ending with the direct participation of proto-Georgian tribes in their formation. Moreover, the identity of the Georgian tribes with the kolkhas, who just did not indicate. Starting from ancient Greek and ending with Roman sources. And what are the problems with Georgian writing? She did NOT appear in the Christian era. In the Christian era, and more precisely one and a half centuries after the Christianization of East Georgia (327 CE), its first monuments appeared and, moreover, in such a complete form (texts and compositions) that most cartvelologists (Georgian scholars) still wonder how so it may be that before this nothing could have happened. That is, like that, suddenly, writing appeared and immediately books began to be written on you. There is a theory that the disappearance of more ancient monuments of Georgian writing is the merit of the first Georgian Christians who destroyed everything that was connected with the pre-Christian and pagan era. Apparently they thoroughly tried, although they still find something. Take an interest in the excavations and the found tombstone in Nekresi. Dating 1-2 century. I am sure they will find more. And about the independent kingdom of the Georgians - dear to you, you generally do not have to engage in engagement, but dig deeper and if in the same Iberia from the time of Parnavaz you do not want to start, then believe at least the Romans and their documents. If in Rome they erected a monument to the Iberian (East Georgian) Tsar Parsman, and Diocletian kept correspondence and relations with Mtskheta (the then capital of Iberia), then apparently the Georgians had something real and independent. What is the 11th century, do not write to put it mildly untruth
    2. Yuri 11 August 2019 14: 52 New
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      But this, you know, is not necessary. The Armenian kingdom of the Orontids appeared even somewhat earlier than the Achaemenids, although it fell into their inevitable vassal dependence. The very fact of the existence of kingdoms, however, does not guarantee historical or cultural significance, which is illustrated by the “Colchis Kingdom” and Iberia, known mainly for the fact that some mythical characters traveled to them.
      As for the Indo-European peoples, they all came from somewhere. And if the Greek-Armenian-Aryan hypothesis is true, then the Armenians are the least nomadic of them. This, however, does not matter in terms of assessing membership in the region or contribution to world civilization of either Armenians or Alans.
      And the article is wonderful! It’s high time to write in detail about the ugly deeds of the Georgian ethnic group, which for the company and not at all disinterestedly showed the ostentatious, pathos, table-and-theater fidelity of the Russian Dvoroshev when she was strong, but laid bare her putrid grin like a small scavenger every time she weakened. This has happened twice already - at the beginning and at the end of the twentieth century. I hope it never happens again, because Russia will not make such a mistake as once again taking Georgia under its protection
      1. Goral 11 August 2019 22: 38 New
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        You know, I'm not a grin specialist. This is apparently still yours. Each nation and state has its skeleton in the closet. Do you know how many neighbors can tell about the rogue grin of Russia? You won’t believe it, but that’s it :-)
        1. Yuri 12 August 2019 01: 08 New
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          So they say. Cracking so that their thoughts are not heard! Mostly those that Russia at different stages of history inexplicably (and on its own head) endowed with such benefits as security *, state status **, economic infrastructure, fictional history *** and, often, borders generously expanded due to less lucky peoples ****, and in some cases, Russia itself. Which, in a way, is the subject of this article.
          Links:
          * - Georgia
          ** - Ukraine, "Azerbaijan", Latvia, Estonia, even Finland, which suddenly became a princedom under Russian rule
          *** - Ukraine, "Azerbaijan", partly Georgia
          **** - Ukraine, "Azerbaijan", Georgia, Moldova ... Poland after WWII, Estonia
          1. Oquzyurd 12 August 2019 09: 58 New
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            "a fictional story *** and, often, borders that have been generously expanded at the expense of less fortunate peoples ****," For Armenians, for example, it’s not a word that the borders were moved (you must first have something to move them), for them Russia with zero created a state in the South Caucasus. I emphasize, FROM ZERO.
            1. Yuri 12 August 2019 18: 45 New
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              My dear, your grotesque attempts to impress few people, believe me. We are not at any “Azerbaijani” site. Look there for your fellow minds
              1. Oquzyurd 12 August 2019 19: 02 New
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                I see the Armenians strain and deceive the readers. I offer them a hint so that they themselves are interested in what, where and how it was? (For those who are interested). The site is not your property, the Internet is all the more ... to indicate.
                1. Yuri 12 August 2019 20: 02 New
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                  Begging for rudeness! Those who are interested will really understand without you. And I repeat, a place in the "Azerbaijani" segment of the Internet, they will understand and appreciate you there
                  1. Oquzyurd 12 August 2019 20: 41 New
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                    You’re doing rudeness from the very beginning. Well, okay, they’ll understand and appreciate it — just try, you’ll be very much appreciated in the “Armenian” segment.
                  2. Yuri 12 August 2019 21: 55 New
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                    Maybe I’d better give you a direct email address, write there. And shame with you in front of other readers is a little out of place:
                    [email protected]
                  3. Oquzyurd 12 August 2019 22: 12 New
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                    Okay, disgrace without me.
      2. Goral 12 August 2019 22: 14 New
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        Oh, let's not tell fairy tales now, I have gifted this and that. It’s strange, yes, that ALL the neighbors of Russia do not consider themselves “gifted”, but why vice versa. Here EVERYTHING is wrong and only one Russia is right :-))) Starting from Finland and around the perimeter - the Balts, Poles, even Belarusians, Ukrainians, Georgians, Azerbaijanis, the same Kazakhs, Chinese, Japanese. Sorry, I was mistaken, the only Mongols who are good neighbors to you. Although who knows, maybe they still consider you their ulus :-)))
        Jokes aside. I’ll speak for Georgia. Let’s start a discussion, or will you be discouraged by the “Russianness” of this resource? A strange technique ...
        1. Yuri 13 August 2019 03: 52 New
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          I have natural immunity from the syndrome of inappropriate historical guilt, so I'm not going to dissuade. And I was not joking at all!

          Finns, for example, had they remained under Swedish rule, no doubt would have lost, as a result, their own language and other elements of national identity and would never have gained statehood. And then suddenly, the Principality of Finland! And after a century with a small, independent republic.

          Further, as an educated person, you, at heart, cannot but admit that if it were not for the Soviet authorities, nothing like the outlines of the borders of present-day Ukraine or “Azerbaijan” would not have been mentioned. I am quoting the latter in quotes for a reason that I think you can guess.
          And in order to add Odessa, Crimea and Donbass to Ukraine, and the Armenian regions of Nakhichevan and Karabakh (whose self-name is curiously forbidden to be posted on this site !!!) to the newly created Soviet socialist republic of the Caucasian Tatars, it was necessary to commit blatant violence at different intervals over history, demographic reality, conscience, justice and common sense.

          As for Georgia, let me repeat the axiomatic truth about how Russia saved it from the possible destruction of Turkic hordes of various stripes. In the same style in which other Christian peoples were subsequently exterminated within the reach of the Turkish scimitar - Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks.

          Speaking about the situation with its former autonomies, no one can deny close relationships, political, dynastic ties and cultural interpenetration, for example, with Abkhazia. However, the historical truth is that a huge number of Abkhazians were expelled and replaced by Mingrelians in the process of joining the region to Russia. A joint history does not give the right to enslavement, as after the 30s, when the Soviets included Abkhazia in Georgia as autonomy.

          But the main thing, in my opinion, is not even that. The bitter irony for the Georgians is that if they had not tried to conquer Abkhaz and South Ossetians by force in the early 90s and in 2008, then both of these territories would remain hopelessly part of Georgia to this day: there would be a tense confrontation with different graters scandals and misunderstandings, but no one would ever recognize their independence. There was nothing to send bloodthirsty volunteers on buses in '92 to deal with the rebel autonomies, which at first only demanded the strengthening of their powers within the borders of Georgia. There was no need to bring the matter to monstrous crimes, if you like, from all three sides. Moreover, repeat the same mistake on 08.08.08/XNUMX/XNUMX. Indeed, even after the horrors of those wars between the parties, relatively civilized relations remained in terms of trade, for example, or border crossing.
          So, Georgia should blame Georgia for its troubles, only not Russia
          1. Goral 14 August 2019 22: 10 New
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            Quote: “Finns, for example, if they had remained under Swedish rule, they would have undoubtedly lost ....”

            - why did the Finns suddenly have to lose their tongue, etc., etc. If you follow the history of 19th-century Europe, you will notice that everywhere among peoples without state and political entities there is a powerful wave of national revival and awakening. Czechs, Slovaks, Slavs of the Balkans, Romanians, Ukrainians, Poles in Prussia and Austria-Hungary, the Baltic states in Russia, Georgians and Armenians. I don’t say anything about the Jews who revived their dead language of the liturgy and breathed a second life into it. The vector of development of history led to the inevitable fork in the formation of political projects of peoples, consolidating around their culture and territory. Finns had everything, both language and territory. Why did they have to lose it as part of Sweden if they did not lose it as part of Sweden for several centuries before joining the Russian Empire?

            quote: "you, deep down, cannot help but admit that if it were not for the Soviet authorities, there would be nothing like the outlines of the borders of present-day Ukraine or ...."

            - I agree in part and explain why. Azerbaijan existed as an independent state with its less stable borders. Territorial disputes were mainly with Armenia over Karabakh and Nakhichevan. Moreover, it is interesting that in those turbulent years of 1918-1920, Karabakh was still more likely to be part of Azerbaijan since, despite several uprisings of the Armenians, the Musavatists were able to establish the current government of Azerbaijan there. Only the inaccessible mountain wounds were out of control. However, your statement is true. Decisions adopted by the central leadership of the USSR on the borders of the Union Republics predetermined their current outlines. Of course, this is not even discussed. Someone lost more, someone gained. Georgia definitely lost more.

            quote: "... As for Georgia, let me repeat the axiomatic truth about how Russia saved it from the possible destruction of the Turkic .."

            - I do not like to radicalize opinions. Turkey from the 18th century was bent as an empire, by the way, like Persia. It was fueled by European powers trying to make it a kind of barrier to the advancement of Russia in the Caucasus and further south. It is not known what would have happened to Turkey if it had not been for this help, it might have collapsed earlier and faster than in 1918. But everything was as it was. All the same, I see much more positive aspects in the fact of Georgia joining Russia than negative ones. Although it cost Georgia oh, how expensive - and the loss of statehood for more than a century, and the loss of church autocephaly, but there were still more advantages. Georgians would not die out. For centuries, Armenians lived and survived under their direct oppression. Georgians would have survived, especially since they did not lose their statehood, unlike the Armenians. Only in 1801 (East) Georgia as a state came to an end (from Russia), and Western Georgia (Imereti as a formal sovereign over all Western cargo principalities) in 1810

            quote; "... however, the historical truth is that a huge number of Abkhazians were expelled and replaced by the Mingrelians in the process of joining the region to Russia. And a joint history does not give the right to enslavement ..."

            - how do I not like the repetition of someone's propaganda fabrications? Well, you kind of know the story? Well, look at the history of Abkhazia: Georgian tribes have lived in the territory of Abkhazia since ancient times without interruption. I will not talk about geniuses, missmians, coraxes. Let's start from the middle ages. The Abkhazians / Apsua themselves shyly hide their eyes when they poke the fact of the ethnic border between the Abkhazian Principality and Odishi (Mingrelians) in Tskhum eristavstvo (principality) in their nose. The very name Sukhumi (old Tskhumi / Tskhomi) is of Svan origin. Already in the late Middle Ages, due to the pressure of the Circassians on the Abkhaz, they in turn pressed south and gradually shifted the ethnic border with the Georgians to the south. Therefore, already in the 17th century, the same Italian travelers Castelli and Lamberti clearly write: Abkhazians live from the Kodori river to the northwest and Georgians (mehrels) to the southeast. You know, after all, the great Megrelian wall, which the Abkhazians shamelessly change into the Abkhazian without mentioning why and how the Megrelian rulers of Dadiani erected it on the territory of today's Abkhazia and even the loopholes to the North-West. I think no need to explain. And in the 18th century, the Abkhazian princes Shervashidze managed to gain power over the Northwest Megrelia (today's Ochamchirsky, Tkvarcheli and Gali wounds of Abkhazia). There, Georgians ALWAYS lived in historical Samurzakano, and always in the majority. Take the population statistics Ros. Empire of 1886. Georgians or Megrels of Abkhazia are marked by Samurzakans there and make up half of the population of Abkhazia together with other Georgians. So explain to me why it is suddenly the Georgians do not have rights to those lands where they ALWAYS lived.

            The bitter irony of fate is that from there on the other side you did not see the full scale of Russian participation in the Georgian conflicts of the 90s, the purpose of which was to prevent Georgia from leaving the USSR. All these Baburins, Zatulins, Chilingarovs - even in Soviet times, kissed in a hickey in the Avkhaz ethno-top. But even after conflicts when Shevardnadze was in power in Georgia (1994-2003), Russia had a lot of chances to settle these conflicts and solve the problem with Georgia forever. No one would look either west or east. In the second half of the 90s, everything was ready for this, but no, they did not give the go-ahead. And since 2006 in general, Russia has frankly and directly, spitting on everyone and everything, began to pump up both Abkhazia and Tskhinvali with the military. Georgian villages were continuously bombarded by "unknowns" and Russian peacekeepers pretended to be idiots. Although I think now there is a chance, but the ball is on the side of Russia.
            1. Yuri 16 August 2019 14: 27 New
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              Well, as usual, "settle conflicts" ... That is, for some reason force Abkhaz and Ossetians to return to the former metropolis. Ukrainians also dream that they will settle the Crimea in such a way, and Zak-Turks - Karabakh. And this will never happen.

              I will return for a moment to the question of preserving languages ​​and identities on the example of the Finns, for I know what I'm saying. After all, the Western European countries did not let their provinces go easily and did not give reason to feel like potential states, unlike the Republic of Ingushetia. An example of this is the Celts of the British Isles, Catalonia, Basque Country, Corsica, Brittany, etc. Independence was obtained only by a fierce struggle, and in most cases it was limited to street signs in regional dialects, out of respect for the European Charter for Regional Languages, or whatever it is (to which France generally spits). Those countries that at the end of the last century began to relate to regional languages ​​with affection, since “Tse Europa”, now regret it. The appearance of the Versailles dwarfs has nothing to do with this dispute.

              You commented below that the Orontidian dynasty was Persian. Although this is not known for certain, it probably was Iranian, but hardly Persian, and came under the Achaemenid empire through the Medes, in whom it went in vassals. And you know, having a royal dynasty of foreign origin is a ubiquitous phenomenon. Moreover, with this dynasty, the active involvement of Armenia in the ancient Iranian civilizational and ethno-cultural community began, which you can only be proud of
              1. Goral 16 August 2019 23: 21 New
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                quote: "Well, as usual," settle conflicts "... That is, for some reason force Abkhaz and Ossetians to return to the former metropolis .."

                Well, why the metropolis? For the Georgians of Abkhazia and Tskhinvali, Georgia has never been a metropolis. And why did they have to automatically agree with the opinion of South Ossetians and Abkhazians about secession? Besides, by the end of the 90s I could really solve at least the South Ossetian issue. Ossetians were ready to remain in Georgia on autonomy rights. Georgians were ready to give them more autonomy. People traveled to each other, everything was ready for reconciliation. But then the new head of the Kremlin chambers and Basta came, the whole beginning radically changed. Well-wishers from the north began to pump weapons. Even then they introduced manual control of the Ossetians through their stoogniks, the Varangian-cadre employees of the Russian power structures. And off we go ....

                I wrote about the Finns in response to another user, so I won’t repeat myself. In short, I’ll just say that France is a model for me to severely suppress all the rights of ethnic minorities.

                quote: "..You have commented below that the Orontidian dynasty was Persian. Although it is not known for certain, it probably was Iranian, but hardly Persian, and came under the Achaemenid empire through the Medes who went to the vassals. And to have a royal a dynasty of foreign origin, you know, is a ubiquitous phenomenon. Moreover, with this dynasty, Armenia began active involvement in the ancient Iranian civilizational and ethno-cultural community, which can only be proud of .. "

                - I will subscribe to your every word. absolutely agree. But we were arguing about the examples and old age of statehood of the Armenian and Kartvelian (Georgian) tribes. You take the Orontids, I take Colchis with no doubt the local dynasty of rulers. We can go even deeper and begin to rummage through the ins and outs of the formation of Diaohi or Daieni or the country of Nairi. Therefore, we have long been joking with my Armenian friends on this stupid topic, who is ancient and cultural.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 August 2019 05: 27 New
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    The story broke off at the most interesting place! We assume that the author has kept the intrigue ...... we are waiting for the continuation !!!
  • Oho ho 9 August 2019 06: 10 New
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    In the photo is the Ossetian woman Digorka. Digora village in North Ossetia. Ossetians themselves are divided into Digorians, Ironians and Kudars (if my memory serves me) I don’t know who the Ossetians of South Ossetia belong to. Oh, what nature, mountains, forests there! In childhood, relatives often visited Digor with their parents. I always remember the hospitality of Ossetians and respect for traditions. And also the fact that even then, the end of the 70s, ethnic hatred was there.
    1. Sanya Terek 9 August 2019 09: 33 New
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      Ossetians are divided into four main branches: irons living in the northern, central and eastern regions of North Ossetia-Alania, Digorians in western (Digorsky and Irafsky) regions, Tuals in the south of North Ossetia-Alania and South Ossetia, as well as kudars in South Ossetia. Although the inhabitants of North Ossetia, all South Ossetians are called Kudars.
      1. Oleg Bagaev 10 August 2019 18: 34 New
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        Toilets are chysainӕgtӕ (chsantsy), as I understand it?
    2. Nagaibak 10 August 2019 21: 07 New
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      Oho Ho "To whom the Ossetians of South Ossetia belong, I don’t know."
      As far as I remember, the kudars from South Ossetia.
  • Aviator_ 9 August 2019 08: 07 New
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    Interesting article. Respect to the author. I look forward to continuing.
  • Alexander Trebuntsev 9 August 2019 09: 09 New
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    If memory serves me right, then in South Ossetia, Ossetians appeared with the permission of the Georgian king in the Middle Ages. I'm afraid to lie, maybe under David the Builder, but I don’t remember exactly. Kings always need subjects for taxes and warriors. Ossetians helped the kings keep the feudal lords in check, and even participated with external enemies in all wars. Then the kings completely weakened, Georgia fell apart, practically, but the Georgians remembered that the lands of South Ossetia were their property. Hence it went.
  • Undecim 9 August 2019 10: 04 New
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    Throughout the centuries-long history of the existence of these two peoples, Georgian-Ossetian relations developed mainly in the mainstream of confrontation.
    At the same time, not having the strength to subjugate their neighbors, the soldiers of the Georgian principalities, in full accordance with the customs of the feudal era, robbed their villages and stole cattle, and captured people were sold into slavery, which, naturally, provoked a similar response.
    Surprisingly, the principalities of Georgia, brutally oppressed by the Turks and Persians, themselves were equally dismissive of neighboring peoples, including the Ossetians.
    For example. In 1782, the “Code of the Georgian Tsarevich Vakhtang to the inhabitants of the Aragva Eristavstvo on the restriction of marriages between Ossetians and Georgians” was published. It says the following: “if a Christian gives off his daughter as an Ossetian and is related to him, we will consider this a treachery and tightly exacted, and if the Ossetian gives a woman, marry, but you must baptize her, do not baptize her - you can’t” In other words, Ossetians and at that time, as well as other nations, were not equal to them for Georgians.
    1. tihonmarine 9 August 2019 11: 13 New
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      The Georgians needed Russian soldiers to bite off someone else's piece.
      In my opinion it is impossible to say better.
    2. Goral 9 August 2019 23: 00 New
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      No, this is not about Muslims. In the entire grechny zone of the Caucasus, old beliefs mixed with Christianity and Islam are still alive and strong. Ossetians common in the mountainous zone of central Georgia dominated their beliefs with impurities of Christianity + the influence of Orthodoxy on the part of Georgian neighbors. Georgians then (and now) should not give women to marry a non-Christian. Ossetians had to be baptized to marry Georgians, and Ossetians, too, if they married Georgians. Why are Ossetians there, even the mountain communities of Georgians had such a wild mix of Christianity and paganism that the Georgian church used the term "unkind Christians" to refer to them :-))) although the Gretz Georgians themselves were sure that they were cooler than Christians (in the sense of them) nobody in the world.
      Ossetians were very much equal to Georgians and mixing among peoples was everywhere. Until the 90s, these were the most related nations mixed among themselves. Ossetians were often the standard bearers of Georgian kings. Their troops were always attracted by Georgian kings to military service. Until the last moment of the existence of the kingdoms of Alanya in the North. In the Caucasus, Georgian royal houses were related to Alan (Ossetian). The relationship was very close.
  • Alexander Trebuntsev 9 August 2019 11: 07 New
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    Quote: Undecim
    ... and if the Ossetian gives a woman - get married, but you must baptize her, do not baptize - you can’t ”...

    The text was clearly talking about Muslim Ossetians. Well, it was the same with the Russians. A Muslim or Muslim woman was to be baptized in marriage with a Russian (Russian). Even Catholics were baptized.
  • Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 9 August 2019 12: 00 New
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    My relatives in Tskhinvali remained there - their surname is Tskhovrebovs. We lost contact in the mid-1990s ... Good people there! I visited a couple of times, now I regret that I rarely traveled! ...
  • bubalik 9 August 2019 12: 06 New
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    South Ossetian Bolsheviks in Tskhinval

    ,, I venture to suggest that this photograph does not quite correlate with 1918. the events described in the article.
    with a red star, the sickle and hammer appeared on the USSR flag in 1923, and in 1924 the symbol was registered in the constitution.

    or the original one. request
  • Operator 9 August 2019 14: 09 New
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    Ossetians - on 70% - carriers of the indigenous Caucasian haplogroup G2, 25% - carriers of the South Ilyrian haplogroup I2.

    Georgians are pronounced mestizos: 36% are carriers of the Semitic haplogroups J1 and J2, 30% are carriers of the Caucasian G2, 20% are carriers of the Indo-European R1a and R1b.
    1. Goral 9 August 2019 22: 51 New
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      If you had rummaged a little deeper in the haplogroups of Ossetians, you would have discovered that all of their G-branches are young and originate from the southern Caucasus. For them (Ossetians) the bottleneck effect is characteristic, when at some point 90% of the people were exterminated (Mongols? Tamerlan?) And today's Ossetians are mostly descendants of one surviving group. In Georgia, haplogroup G is much older and more numerous. Haplogroups J1 in Georgia at least. G2a, G2a3b and J2 dominate there, as well as the so-called Indo-European R1a and R1b. Métis on this earth is everything. Clean has never been and never is. No need to talk nonsense.
      1. Operator 9 August 2019 23: 04 New
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        I didn’t dig anywhere except on the Internet.

        And here the bottleneck is the main thing that the Ossetians have a dominant haplogroup (70% Caucasian G2), while the Georgians do not.

        Moreover, the local Caucasian G2 among Georgians is only 30%, the rest are descendants of the alien Semites and Indo-Europeans.

        Those. Georgians on 70% consist of "come in large numbers" - in other words, Georgia should join Ossetia, and not vice versa laughing
        1. Goral 9 August 2019 23: 23 New
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          Yes, you father is not at all in the subject :-)))

          all haplogroups have come together, there is no particular Caucasian haplogroup. This we now give names to these groups based on the mass distribution of it among one or another people. Of those available in the Caucasus, both G and J arose in the Middle East. Each haplogroup has types and subclades, whose age is sometimes several millennia. The same Indo-European R1 are divided into R1a and R1b, and some are typical for the Slavs, and others for the Celts and (you will not believe it, but some Turkic peoples). Ossetians G2a are "younger" in relation to the South Caucasus, that is, they are likely to originate from the South Caucasus. That is, roughly speaking, Ossetians are the South Caucasians, who once adopted the Indo-European language of the Alans. That is, they are only linguistic descendants of the Alans, but not genetic. Ingush J have 90%, so what? Now you say that they are not Caucasians but Semites :-))) The Krigiz have more than 70% of R1a and R1b - and that they will be Aryans for you :-))) Do not tell :-)))
          1. Operator 9 August 2019 23: 32 New
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            According to genetic studies of bone remains, the first inhabitants of a particular Western Caucasus (and not Eastern) are carriers of G2 (Abkhaz, Ossetians, Circassians).

            The rest came in large numbers laughing
            1. Goral 9 August 2019 23: 59 New
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              Yes, you sho :-)))

              the first inhabitants in the Caucasus are generally Pithecanthropus, homo erectus, and later Neanderthals along with Cro-Magnon people. What Abkhazians are with the Circassians and Ossetians :-))) You probably do not know, but all the three peoples you have mentioned speak different languages, but the haplogroup has one misfortune - it’s strange why :-))? Even between the relatively related Abkhazians and Circassians, the separation occurred during reconstruction 2 if not 3 thousand years BC. e. And you persistently repeat stupidity. I already wrote to you that the Ossetians have G2a1a and the Circassians (not all, but for example Adygs and Shapsugs) have G2a3b. Moreover, the separation of the branches of haplogroups occurred several millennia (!!!) BC. er, when neither the Circassian people nor Ossetians were mentioned. Well, at least now they understand that? Ossetians in general in terms of language, the people who came to the Caucasus are descendants (linguistic) of nomadic Sarmatians and Alans, who in their mass had R1a and moored in the Caucasus from the Volga and Don steppes.

              haplotypes G2a and G2a3b typical for the Caucasus, like J2, after coming from the Middle East, began to form in the South Caucasus and then from the South Caucasus they already moved to the North. Caucasus. This is confirmed by archeology. Abkhazians are genetic twins of Western Georgians (especially Mingrelians), and Ossetians are finding more and more genetic proximity with West Georgian highlanders (Svans, Rachinians). The bottleneck effect already mentioned interferes very much in their research. Imagine that in one Russian village lived 90 Slavs and 10 Bashkirs. Naturally, some have, for example, the haplogroup R1a and others N. Over time, the Bashkirs have become Russified and become Russian. Suddenly the Mongols attacked and slaughtered almost everyone. Only the descendants of 3 Bashkirs (who are already Russian) survived. Over time, they multiplied and their male descendants naturally have the same haplogroup and haplotype. Accordingly, many would conclude that ALL of the ancient inhabitants of this village had the same haplogroups as the descendants of these Bashkirs. But this is not true. This is the effect of the bottleneck, when at one moment the majority of the people are destroyed and one part survives, which then re-shapes the people. But this does not mean that before this people did not look different. It was more diverse but was sharply decimated and we get a distorted picture.
              1. Operator 10 August 2019 00: 29 New
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                It is true that they confirmed my information about the first inhabitants of the Western Caucasus represented by the inhabitants of the South Caucasus - carriers of G2 (its subclades are not important when compared with other haplogroups). The difference in languages ​​(native Abkhaz-Circassian and introduced Indo-European) does not change anything in the ethnogenesis of G2 speakers.

                But the story is different - for anti-Russian activities, Georgians deserve to be disassembled at the place of origin: it is advisable to distribute G2 carriers to Abkhazia and Ossetia, J2 carriers to Turkey, J1 carriers to Arabia, R1b carriers to Georgia, R1 carriers to Russia, we will teach them here to love their historical homeland bully
                1. Goral 10 August 2019 00: 53 New
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                  How are these subclades not important ?! the difference between them is several if not tens of thousands of years, and you are unimportant :-))) The fact is that in addition to the Caucasus G2, Yotsi also had a haplogroup, remember in the Alps a mummy from a stone age man? And now - Caucasians with such a haplogroup in Europe, wipe out? Abkhazians as well as western Georgians have the same J2. And in terms of quantity, G2 is the largest among Georgians. Not one nation has ever had only one haplogroup. The peoples were never enclosed but a kind of "communicating vessels." Belonging to the people is first of all self-consciousness, language and culture, and never genetics. The same Russians are a hodgepodge, although the largest group is R1a, but still a salad. Start to evict the Russians first and then take on the Georgians ;-) That's why I ask you not to talk nonsense.
                  1. Operator 10 August 2019 16: 23 New
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                    Quote: Goral
                    in terms of quantity G2 is most of all among Georgians

                    In quantitative terms, the carriers of G2 are the most among Armenians - taking into account the diaspora, of course.
                    1. Goral 11 August 2019 22: 05 New
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                      Quote: Operator
                      Quote: Goral
                      in terms of quantity G2 is most of all among Georgians

                      In quantitative terms, the carriers of G2 are the most among Armenians - taking into account the diaspora, of course.

                      Let’s then consider up to 6 million Turks of Georgian origin and a couple more millions of Georgian Diaspora. And who will have more ?!
                      1. Operator 11 August 2019 22: 42 New
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                        Among the Turks, there are millions of people of Armenian descent.

                        So do not set off.
                      2. Goral 12 August 2019 22: 01 New
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                        Oh yes, of course there are millions, especially after the thorough massacre of 1,5 million and the complete ethnic cleansing of the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia. The only group of Turkish residents who have partially Armenian roots is Upper Khemshil, and even then they are basically massively mixed with Georgian ethnic groups of Laz and Chvebenuri / Gurdj. So what exactly is what you need.
                      3. Operator 13 August 2019 01: 07 New
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                        These are not the descendants of the Georgians among the Turks, these are the descendants of the Turks - little Asians among the Georgians laughing
                      4. Goral 13 August 2019 22: 47 New
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                        Here to learn more what is the Asia Minor Turk. They themselves at least realized that they blurted out :-)?
                      5. Operator 13 August 2019 22: 53 New
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                        Turks are the carriers of the North Semitic J2, of course.
                      6. Goral 14 August 2019 21: 28 New
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                        What is not commentary, it’s getting worse and worse into the wilds .... Do you even understand what rubbish you carry - the Turks are carriers of the Semitic J2? Turks, like any other people, are the collective name of people of different origin, since there is no people of "homogeneous" origin. And second, J2 is not so common among Semites. It is distributed more to the north, and most likely formed on the territory of today's eastern Turkey. These are not Semites and not Arabs, and in general then there was no concept of peoples, but tribes. And the tribes mixed up and often changed both language and phenotype. Enlighten
                      7. Operator 15 August 2019 00: 38 New
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                        As part of the Turks, J2 carriers comprise 24% - about 20 million people. Their consanguineous relatives in the Georgians make up 22% - about 700 of thousands of people.

                        Learn the materiel: Semites are divided into northern - J2 carriers (from 20 to 80% composed of Ingush, Chechens, Georgians, Turks, Azerbaijanis, Persians, Kurds, Tajiks, Afghans) and southern - J1 carriers (from 30 to 80% composed of Arabs , Jews, Ethiopians, Somalis).

                        As for the phenotype - Georgians with 36% of J1 and J2 carriers have a pronounced Semitic appearance laughing
                      8. Goral 15 August 2019 21: 40 New
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                        sometimes I’d like to say - like peas against a wall. Ale Kamchatka, have not understood yet that J is not a Semitic haplogroup ?! It arose then when there was still no division into Semites and other peoples — somewhere 31 thousand years ago. And she is related to both I and G, since they all arose from F. I’m trying to explain the common truths on the shit to you, but apparently there’s no sense. Even J1 cannot be called Semitic, since we do not know what language the first speakers spoke. However, it received the greatest distribution among the Arabs of Emen and Saudi Arabia and the peoples of Northeast Africa. And from what hangover you dragged J2 to the Semites - curb your imagination better, look ridiculous. A special pearl is the percentage division of the Georgian phenotype :-))) Already 36% and not a percent more or less - Spezialist :-)))
                      9. Operator 15 August 2019 21: 55 New
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                        Ale, garage, once again - learn the materiel: in accordance with the international nomenclature of the haplogroups J1 and J2, they are named "South Semitic" and "North Semitic", respectively.

                        In addition, learn Russian - it will come in handy: I ​​said that all Georgians without exception have a pronounced Semitic appearance (and not just the native speakers J2 and J1) laughing
                      10. Goral 16 August 2019 22: 33 New
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                        Ale clinic, what international nomenclature ?! may be enough to invent nonsense ?! There is no international nomenclature. It is in your crooked imagination of the Y-Semites. So do not transfer your inventions to reality.

                        Your quote: "As for the phenotype, Georgians with 36% of J1 and J2 carriers have a pronounced Semitic appearance." Probably it was necessary to read backwards in order to see ALL Georgians with the Semitic phenotype here :-)))) Learn to formulate your thoughts correctly and then write in Russian adequately for these thoughts. Shame and disgrace when non-Russian teaches Russian to Russian. Not to mention that you argued another stupidity :-)))
                      11. Goral 17 August 2019 20: 40 New
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                        He doesn’t know at all that haplogroups have nothing to do with anthropology and phenotype ... Shpetsyalist damn ... laughing
                2. Minato2020 16 August 2019 04: 27 New
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                  Quote: Goral
                  ... And the tribes mixed up and often changed both language and phenotype. Enlighten


                  What a twist!
                  And before, I believed that tribes everywhere destroyed each other with the “bottleneck effect” and the victors did not change their language and phenotype since there was no one to mix with laughing
                  So maybe the Finns would also mix with the Swedes and change their language to Swedish? Yes, that's bad luck - RI intervened and allocated the Finns a separate principality with paperwork in the Finnish language. That's how the Finns survived thanks to RI and Lenin. And there are monuments in Finland on this subject.
                3. Goral 16 August 2019 22: 48 New
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                  What is surprising? There was a confusion and destruction. Is that a discovery for you? Türks, Bulgarians successfully mixed with the Balkan Slavs, passing their name to them, but taking the Slavic language. The Hungarians perfectly absorbed the slavic-Celtic-German population of Pannonia and Pusta, adopting their anthropological type but assimilating them linguistically. Take the same Russians - where the Slavic core during its thousand-year-long migration from the Carpathians to the Urals crushed within itself a huge number of Baltic and Finno-Ugric peoples.

                  As for the Finns, we can now assume a lot more. The only countries in Western Europe where minorities were really rigidly assimilated and suppressed by the state system are France and Spain. Austria-Hungary was very liberal. Italy itself was patchwork. Germany only at the end of the 19th century formed as a centralized state. In Britain, by the 19th century, most of the Celtic population voluntarily adopted a higher English culture. I repeat, the Finns had a large territory of compact settlement + saving factor, the dominant dominance of the Finnish language / culture in the countryside. It was only a small matter - for the formation of the intelligentsia and the urban stratum, which happened as part of the Republic of Ingushetia. If there were Swedes, the same thing would happen there. The Georgians in the Russian Empire did not have any autonomy, they were cut into two Provinces and Sukhumi District. And nothing - the language has preserved both the culture and the idea of ​​the revival of statehood. The same with the Armenians. If the closely related Norwegians in the Swedes did not dissolve then what can we say about the Finns
                4. Minato2020 18 August 2019 04: 11 New
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                  Quote: Goral
                  Why are you surprised? There was confusion and destruction. Is that a discovery for you?


                  This discovery for scientists is a confusion.
                  Before that, there was either destruction, for example, aliens destroyed almost all the aborigines of Japan, Australia, New Zealand, North America.
                  The surviving aborigines did not mix with the newcomers, they lived apart.
                  There are nomads who do not mix - gypsies.
                  Mixing is called by scientists - assimilation.
                  An example is that after the WWI, a million Russians were assimilated in Shanghai, half a million Russians were assimilated in France.
                  The Russians on Brighton Beach in the USA are not assimilated, since until recently there was a 5th, 6th and 7th wave of emigration to America from Russia.
                  During assimilation, one remains, only the name remains from the other.

                  Quote: Goral
                  The Türks of the Bulgarians successfully mixed with the Balkan Slavs giving them their name, but taking the language of the Slavs.

                  And what are these Turks or Slavs?

                  Quote: Goral
                  The Hungarians perfectly absorbed the Slavic-Celtic-Germanic population of Pannonia and Pusta, adopting their anthropological type but assimilating them linguistically.

                  and who are it now - the Hungarians or the Slavs?

                  Quote: Goral
                  Take the same Russians - where the Slavic core during its thousand-year-long migration from the Carpathians to the Urals crushed within itself a huge number of Baltic and Finno-Ugric peoples.

                  So were the Ugrians / Wends assimilated? Have the Finns been assimilated?

                  Quote: Goral
                  As for the Finns, we can now assume a lot of things. The only countries in Western Europe where minorities were really rigidly assimilated and suppressed by the state system were France and Spain.

                  In Finland, after separation from the Republic of Ingushetia, Russians, as a minority, were severely destroyed.
                  The Grand Duchy of Finland was assembled and created by Alexander I from the provinces transferred by Sweden "in bulk" under the Friedrichsham Peace Treaty. With the addition of the Finland (Vyborg) province, which belonged to the Russian Empire (transferred to Russia in 1721 according to the Nistadt Peace Treaty).
                  In fact, the Russian Tsar presented the Finns with a state with their own authorities, laws (“On crimes perpetrated in Russia by the Finns, and in Finland by Russian inhabitants”), official languages, a bank, currency, customs, passport service, police and army.
                  Russian educational institutions were not equated with Finnish ones, which is why even Finns who graduated from the course of Russian educational institutions, even special ones, were not accepted for various positions. Finns who attended the course of Russian educational institutions, except for the military, did not receive special military service rights, which were given only to Finns who graduated from Finnish educational institutions.
                  And for all this, the Finns paid a hundredfold to the Russians in 1918.

                  After the separation of Finland from the Republic of Ingushetia, the Russians who remained in the minority were slaughtered by the Finns, first in Vyborg and then in the remaining territory of Finland.
                  There is a book by Lars Westerlund about the murders of Russians in Finland in 1918-1922, more detailed there.
                  For example, the shooting of women in 1918 in the Hennal area of ​​the Finnish city of Lahti. There were more than 2000 women and even babies in the prisoner of war camp. In 1918, 218 women were shot without trial in the camp.

                  Quote: Goral
                  Austria-Hungary was very liberal. Italy itself was patchwork. Germany only at the end of the 19th century formed as a centralized state. In Britain, by the 19th century, most of the Celtic population voluntarily adopted a higher English culture.

                  Did the Celts voluntarily embrace English culture? Iceland also voluntarily adopted the high English "culture" or a little trembling in the mouth of a British lion?

                  Quote: Goral
                  I repeat, the Finns had a large territory of compact settlement + saving factor, the dominant dominance of the Finnish language / culture in the countryside.

                  All this was provided by RI, and how did the Finns repay the Russians?
                  The collapse of the Russian Empire gave Finland independence. Finland thanked Russia by first entering into an alliance with Kaiser Germany, and then with the Entente powers. The Finns destroyed the Russian community of Finland. Moreover, the majority of Russians in Finland, including refugees from Russia who fled from the Bolsheviks, did not support the Reds and the Soviet regime. Ex-officers of the tsarist army, their families, representatives of the bourgeoisie, intelligentsia, numerous students, the entire Russian population indiscriminately, women, old people and children were exterminated. Significant material assets belonging to the Russians were confiscated.

                  The civil war was tearing Soviet Russia, and the Finns wanted to take advantage of this. So, in February 1918, General K. Mannerheim declared that "he would not put his sword in the scabbard until he was liberated from the Bolsheviks East Karelia." Mannerheim planned to seize Russian lands along the line White Sea - Lake Onega - Svir River - Lake Ladoga, which was supposed to facilitate the defense of new lands. They also planned to include the Pechengi (Petsamo) region and the Kola Peninsula in the composition of Great Finland. On May 15, 1918, Finland declared war on Russia. Even before the official declaration of war, Finnish volunteer units began to conquer East Karelia.

                  Soviet Russia was engaged in fighting on other fronts, so it did not have the strength to defeat its arrogant neighbor. However, the Finnish attack on Petrozavodsk and Olonets, the march on Petrograd through the Karelian Isthmus failed. And after the defeat of the white army of Yudenich, the Finns had to go to the world. From 10 to 14 in July 1920 in Tartu, peace negotiations took place. The Finns demanded to transfer Karelia to them, the Soviet side refused. In the summer, the Red Army dislodged the last Finnish troops from Karelian territory. The Finns kept only two parishes - Rebola and Porosozero. It made them more compliant. There was no hope for the help of the West, the Entente powers already realized that the intervention in Soviet Russia had failed. 14 October 1920 was signed by the Tartu Peace Treaty between the RSFSR and Finland. The Finns were able to get the Pechenga volost, the western part of the Rybachiy peninsula, and most of the Middle Peninsula and the islands to the west of the boundary line in the Barents Sea. Rebola and Porosozero were returned to Russia.

                  This did not satisfy Helsinki. They did not abandon the plans for building Great Finland, they were only postponed. In 1921, Finland again tried to solve the Karelian issue by force. Finnish volunteer units, without declaring war, invaded Soviet territory, the Second Soviet-Finnish War began. Soviet forces in February 1922 completely liberated the territory of Karelia from invaders. In March, an agreement was signed on taking measures to ensure the inviolability of the Soviet-Finnish border.

                  Quote: Goral
                  It was only a small matter - the formation of the intelligentsia and the urban stratum, which happened as part of the Republic of Ingushetia. If there were Swedes, the same thing would happen there.
                  Swedes treated Finns like Poles to Ukrainians


                  Quote: Goral
                  The Georgians in the Russian Empire did not have any autonomy, they were cut into two Provinces and Sukhumi District. And nothing - the language has preserved both the culture and the idea of ​​the revival of statehood. The same with the Armenians. If the closely related Norwegians in the Swedes did not dissolve then what can we say about the Finns

                  Norway and Sweden are different countries, and therefore did not dissolve
                  Georgia retained its language because it was not intended to destroy the culture of Georgians.
  • Goral 9 August 2019 22: 45 New
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    I apologize, but when you read such a compilation about the history of Georgian-Ossetian relations, and even with an openly anti-Georgian attitude, it becomes a pity for the readers and the author. I would like to ask the author:

    1. How did it happen that until the 16th century, no Ossetian settlements on the southern slopes of the Caucasus Range (that is, in Georgia) were recorded on the territory of today's "South Ossetia"?
    2. Why, from the 16th to 17th centuries, Ossetian settlers with the help of Georgian nobles and tsarist authorities appear in those gorges where Georgian villages were empty before?
    3. Why until the end of the 19th century there was not a single Ossetian resident in Tskhinvali, and the city itself was exclusively Georgian-Jewish-Armenian?
    4. Why do Ossetians massively begin to settle in Tskhinvali after the occupation / Sovietization of Georgia by the 11th army and the creation of South Ossetian autonomy with the artificial giving of the neo-Ossetian city of Tskhinvali as the center of this autonomy?
    5. Why does the author deliberately focus on the Bolshevik actions of Ossetians, while in the Georgian Republic of 1918-1921 unrest was not only in Ossetian but also in purely Georgian regions and was suppressed everywhere by force of arms?
    6. Why did the Ossetian Bolshevik gangs that captured the "native" Tskhinvali dotted him with corpses and later flew away from there where they look? Maybe because it was they who were the invaders for the city residents and not the national Jugeli Guard?
    7. Instead of some fiction and outright lies about some kind of truce, the author should write the truth even from the diaries of the famous Dzhugeli and, in particular, that the Georgian Guard successfully extinct for the main Caucasian ridge. The military operations concerned exclusively the contact zone between the Guard and the Bolsheviks (Java Gorge to the Roksky Pass). Nowhere in other regions of Georgia did it concern Ossetians. However, the author is silent about this successfully. Why? The answer is known.
    1. IS-80_RVGK2 10 August 2019 20: 30 New
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      Quote: Goral
      that the Bolshevik infection was successfully swept away by the Georgian Guard over the main Caucasian ridge.

      Yes Yes. True, in the end, for a small but very proud Georgia, it all ended, as always, deplorably. "The battle did not last long, timid Georgians fled." God did not give horns to a vigorous cow and brains at the same time.laughing
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Goral 12 August 2019 22: 04 New
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        Of course timid, three months of fighting with opponents, at least 40 times superior to you, and such were timid Georgians who simultaneously fought off the coming Turks and at the end all forces were thrown at Batumi, repulsed it and made a kind of present for the Bolsheviks, who received the city without fights.
        1. IS-80_RVGK2 16 August 2019 21: 05 New
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          Quote: Goral
          Of course timid, three months of battles with opponents, surpassing you at least 40 times

          Why not a hundred? Write more to pity them. I don’t understand you at all. You seem to be not stupid, well, or not quite a stupid person. And at the same time a fabulously stupid ubernationalist. Paradox. And this is in our time of total globalization. Well, you were born a Georgian, so what? Is it your fault that you were born in a nation of pathological losers? Now the whole world lies in front of you. Go wherever you want. Be what you want. But no, it is necessary with tenacity worthy of better application to pull nationalist owls on tribal globes. Tell me, Georgian, why are you so flawed?
          1. Goral 16 August 2019 22: 56 New
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            Were there any deuces in mathematics? compare the population of Georgia and Russia in 1921 and there will be an insight to you - why about 40 and not 100. But in fact you should tell
            there’s nothing, the main thing is to sketch out a couple of clever phrases, slip into rude personal incidents, go around scribbling all over the people and then introduce yourself as a kind of globalist-pacifist. Tell me, why are you so stupid?
            1. IS-80_RVGK2 18 August 2019 11: 47 New
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              Quote: Goral
              compare the population of Georgia and Russia 1921

              Georgians are you there that overeaten magic mushrooms? Compare the military contingent only on the basis of a comparison of the population. Hand face. It is not surprising that Georgians with this approach to any issues fail in any business. laughing
              Quote: Goral
              But you essentially have nothing to say, the main thing is to throw a couple of clever phrases, slip into rude personal incidents, take a sweep of the whole nation and then introduce yourself as a kind of global pacifist.

              At your core, I already said, and if you are unpleasant to hear, these are your problems.
              Quote: Goral
              Tell me, why are you so stupid?

              A communist, which means a priori smarter than you caveman nationalist. bully
              1. Goral 18 August 2019 21: 26 New
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                1. "Are you Georgians there that overloaded magic mushrooms? To compare the military contingent only on the basis of a comparison of the population."
                - I didn’t read mushrooms but some Russian. Especially poke someone with a nationality. But since someone is dumb and does not understand in another way, you have to insert brains. The military forces of the Georgian Democratic Republic were inferior both in numbers and weapons to the invading forces of Bolshevik Russia. And yes, Russian, learn to read written in Russian. I wrote literally this: "three months of battles with opponents, surpassing you at least 40 times." Protivik is a country, Bolshevik Russia. Or a country and an army are two separate subjects in a war ?!

                2. "In your essence, I already said, and if you are unpleasant to hear, these are your problems."

                I also saw your essence below (Communist) and everything became clear. My condolences :-)))

                P.S. cave nationalist ?! on the basis of what did you make such a stupid conclusion ?! Do you even understand the meaning of the terms used by you in the discussion? I hope you understand that the inadequate mention of specific terms, their use out of place and out of place causes the listeners a serious concern about the mental abilities of this person
                1. IS-80_RVGK2 19 August 2019 21: 27 New
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                  Quote: Goral
                  The military forces of the Georgian Democratic Republic were inferior both in numbers and weapons to the invading forces of Bolshevik Russia.

                  I think, by intellect, Georgians lost even more, judging by the nonsense that you write.
                  Quote: Goral
                  My condolences

                  Decided to once again demonstrate the pathos of Georgian dementia? And for what? You won’t surprise me with them. I have seen all kinds of fools in this life. And worse than you.
                  Quote: Goral
                  cave nationalist ?! on the basis of what did you make such a stupid conclusion ?!

                  Based on your fierce nationalistic ravings. Do you think Natsik are you so unique? You are all tailored to one pattern. All sadly flawed, offended and deprived of Russia, well, or someone else. All as one heroes whom Russia or who else crushed by the number there. It's funny for me to read it all. You would Natsik at least some kind of imagination. And the impression is that you are all together as a two-year-old second year students wrote off their opuses about the epic feats of each other. Do you understand how pathetic you are in my eyes?
                  Quote: Goral
                  I hope you understand that the inadequate mention of specific terms, their use out of place and out of place causes the listeners a serious concern about the mental abilities of this person

                  Do not try to powder my brains with my slanderous evil. It can affect the slaughtered Georgian peasants, alas for me, alas for you, no. bully
                  1. Goral 19 August 2019 22: 36 New
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                    quote: "..I think by intellect Georgians lost even more, judging by the nonsense that you write .."

                    I understand that your brown gut does not give you rest, but try not to show it so openly. Your concerns about the intelligence of Georgians are very touching, well, I would ask you to take care of your spiritual and mental state. Whatever post the more doubts about your adequacy. Well, please shave the antennae and change the comb on its side. And then for a mile you can see what kind of creature you are.

                    quote: “I decided once again to demonstrate the pathos of Georgian dementia”

                    No, only and exclusively taking care of your health. And the feeling is that at every mention of the word "Georgians" your hair stands on end. You can't calmly react to it laughing Condolences again.

                    quote: "Based on your fierce nationalistic delirium. You think Natsik you are so unique"

                    Ahem .... I kind of asked already to show at least something from my posts where I carry furious nationalistic nonsense. But you're a radio point, moreover, you’re still dumb. The meaning of the words and terms used by you is unknown to you and not interesting. The main thing is to shit, shit and not wipe.

                    Quote: "..No need to try to powder my brains with my weaknesses the crafty .."

                    and here, too, not a damn thing this creature understood. I am writing to him in Russian, and his minuses and punctures in the discussion, and this one is sprinkled with a pose and almost holy water .... Do you write down the power for courses of logical thinking and didactics. Although what good, a kettle and so full of holes ...
                    1. IS-80_RVGK2 19 August 2019 22: 59 New
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                      Quote: Goral
                      I understand that your brown gut haunts you

                      What is natsik? Vibrated? Are you trying to translate the arrows? Will not work.
                      Quote: Goral
                      Ahem .... I kind of asked already to show at least something from my posts where I carry furious nationalistic nonsense.

                      "The bitter irony of fate is that from there on the other side you did not see the full scale of Russian participation in Georgian conflicts of the 90s, the purpose of which was to prevent Georgia from leaving the USSR. All of these Baburins, Zatulins, Chilingarovs - even kissed in Soviet times sucked in the Avkhazian ethno-top. But even after conflicts when Shevardnadze was in power in Georgia (1994-2003), Russia had a lot of chances to settle these conflicts and solve the problem with Georgia forever. Nobody would look west or east. second half 90 2006th, everything was ready for this, but no, they didn’t give the go-ahead. And since XNUMX already, Russia frankly and directly, having spit on everyone and everything, has begun pumping up Abkhazia and Tskhinvali with the military. Georgian villages have been bombarded with “unknowns” without stopping. and the Russian peacekeepers pretended to be idiots. "
                      I have heard this song many times. And from professional Ukrainians and from professional Balts and other jackals like the great ones to the amazement of the Kazakhs and other talented and beautiful Moldovans.
                      Quote: Goral
                      The meaning of the words and terms used by you is unknown to you and not interesting.

                      Stupid humanist, what are you trying to shine in front of me with your pathetic semblance of intelligence? This does not impress me, I have already said.
                      Quote: Goral
                      You that by force to write down courses of logical thinking and didactics.

                      Is that enough strength? We won’t talk about the mind, since everything is very sad there. Or, as in the times of 8.8.8, you will if you proudly retreat at a very fast pace to Tbilisi. laughing
                      1. Goral 20 August 2019 19: 42 New
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                        quote: "... What is Natsik? Vibrated? Are you trying to translate the arrows? Will not work .."

                        I don’t know the arrows. I only hold a mirror in front of the monkey so that I can see my gut. His meager mind does not catch up fool

                        quote: "... The bitter irony of fate is that from there on the other side you did not see the full scale of Russian participation in Georgian conflicts of the 90s, the purpose of which was to prevent Georgia from leaving the USSR .. I have heard this song many times"

                        Yeah. enumeration of crimes of the Russian Federation in relation to one of all neighbors turns out to be especially mentally “gifted” for some, called nationalistic delirium. Dunce, go to school bang your head about Ozhegov’s dictionary. Learn Russian and the meaning of concepts, that is, there are two categories of fools: 1.) who foolishly foolishly and then understand something wrong, and 2.) stupid fools who still do not catch up that they are intellectual imbeciles. It is up to you

                        quote: ".. Stupid humanist, what are you trying to shine in front of me with your miserable semblance of intelligence? It doesn't impress me,"

                        certainly not impressive, you gravitate to the second group (see above) laughing

                        quote: "... Is there enough strength? .."

                        on you alone, would be more than enough. But I’m not like you here; I'd rather do a much better job - directing the brains to one fool
                      2. IS-80_RVGK2 20 August 2019 22: 10 New
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                        Quote: Goral
                        enumeration of crimes of the Russian Federation in relation to one of all neighbors turns out to be especially mentally “gifted” for some, called nationalistic delirium.

                        There is no number of meannesses. Really, I find it difficult to understand who you are. LGBT Creative Representative or Democratic Journalist. Or maybe both of these two worthy categories? In this case, the complete absence of logic and the stubborn ignoring of facts is understandable.
                        Quote: Goral
                        It is up to you

                        Did you decide to play demagoguery booby-humanist or Georgians? Do not even try.
                        Quote: Goral
                        on you alone, would be more than enough.

                        You see, you once again confirm my innocence regarding the intelligence of creative Georgians.
                        Quote: Goral
                        But I’m not like you here;

                        Is it sad with you? Ndaa, dyaky tobi. God, I’m not Georgian. Go already sickly dig up the Georgian pyramids and prove the Georgian superiority in the invention of the wheel. I do not dare to delay.
                      3. Goral 25 August 2019 21: 51 New
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                        Quote: "..No number of meannesses is cutting. Really, I find it difficult to understand who you are. Creative representative of LGBT people or a democratic journalist ..."

                        No, everything is much simpler :-))) I just put on display the mental nudity and imbalance of some unfinished Russian neo-Imperials. You tell them the facts in the snout, and from them the snout flows the brown-chauvinistic "g ... oh with a touch of insults.

                        Quote: "... The booby-humanist decided to play demagoguery, or Georgian, don’t even try ...".

                        pff ... at the top I described two categories of stupid. But there is still a third - narcissistic stupid. Go decide first which one you belong to, then I’ll play your IQ, well, at least something should be there. Not a vacuum, after all ?!

                        Quote: "..You see, once again you confirm my innocence regarding the intelligence of creative Georgians."

                        - and this imbitsill here will stink about nationalistic nonsense. What is not a post, then hit a Georgian. Really so offended you :-)))

                        Quote: ".. Do you feel sad with this too? Ndaa, dyaky god. God, I’m not Georgian ..."
                        - nauczyles sie wymawiac pare slow po ukrainsku i juz myslis ze jestes madrala :-))) jeszcze raz dla ciebie - intelektualna improtencje mozna wyleczyc, moge ci nawet porekomendowac doktora, swietyn zie laughing
                      4. IS-80_RVGK2 1 September 2019 11: 00 New
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                        Quote: Goral
                        Russian neo-imperials

                        Well, yes we have an empire. Do you have a Georgian guest worker? Your flawed dreams of great Georgia from pole to pole? laughing
                        Quote: Goral
                        You him the facts in the snout

                        Once again, you confused the facts of your painful fantasies with the Georgian fascist.
                        Quote: Goral
                        What is not a post, then hit a Georgian.

                        You are so stupid that you did not understand - why did you imagine with your interaural ganglion that I really hate all Georgians? Another confirmation of the total stupidity of creative Georgians.
                        Quote: Goral
                        nauczyles sie wymawiac pare slow po ukrainsku i juz myslis ze jestes madrala :-))) jeszcze raz dla ciebie - intelektualna improtencje mozna wyleczyc, moge ci nawet porekomendowac doktora, swietyn zie

                        So you are also a Polish Georgian? This is a very serious disease. Sorry. laughing
  • Goral 10 August 2019 17: 16 New
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    Quote: Operator
    Quote: Goral
    in terms of quantity G2 is most of all among Georgians

    In quantitative terms, the carriers of G2 are the most among Armenians - taking into account the diaspora, of course.

    Well then, let's add to the Georgians of Georgia 6 million Turks of Georgian origin and another million in Iran, up to a million in Russia and the same number in Europe together with the USA ;-)

    Ps I thought this was a serious site, but here are some small-minded cons :-))) Fi ....
    1. Minato2020 16 August 2019 04: 35 New
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      Quote: Goral
      Well then, let's add to the Georgians of Georgia 6 million Turks of Georgian origin and another million in Iran, up to a million in Russia and the same number in Europe together with the USA ;-)

      Ps I thought this was a serious site, but here are some small-minded cons :-))) Fi ....


      Then, at the next elections in Georgia, these 6 million will make their choice, at least at the Georgian embassy in Turkey. Maybe then the policy of Georgia will be more balanced?

      PS Cons are not set out of the desire for "small pay", but simply demonstrates disagreement to the comment in the form of a minus.
      1. Goral 16 August 2019 22: 58 New
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        They are not citizens of Georgia but Turkey, why on earth should they vote in elections in Georgia? And what do you think Georgia’s balanced policy should look like?

        P.S. thanks for clarifying the minuses. Different forums have different rules.
        1. Minato2020 18 August 2019 04: 18 New
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          Quote: Goral
          They are not citizens of Georgia, but Turkey, why on earth should they vote in elections in Georgia? And what do you think Georgia’s balanced policy should look like?


          Well, if these 6 million Turks of Georgian origin are not Georgians, then they should not be added to the Georgians of Georgia.
          You can add to the Georgians in Georgia Georgians living in the Russian Federation - 1 or 2 million. Let them return to Georgia to vote as I see fit. Maybe according to the results of voting, the policy of Georgia will become different.

          Quote: Goral
          “Well then, let's add to the Georgians of Georgia 6 million Turks of Georgian origin and another million in Iran, up to a million in Russia and as many in Europe with the USA ;-)
          1. Goral 18 August 2019 21: 29 New
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            If you didn’t notice, I wrote about the Georgians of the Diaspora in response to the remark about millions of Armenians in the Armenian Diaspora. Armenians abroad are also citizens of other states. Therefore, I see no reason for further discussion on this topic.
  • paul3390 11 August 2019 02: 12 New
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    Quote: Goral
    I would like to ask the author:

    I would like to ask a counter-question - and who in general is now interested in the opinion of the Georgians for any reason? And even more so - Russia?
    1. Goral 11 August 2019 21: 55 New
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      Quote: paul3390
      Quote: Goral
      I would like to ask the author:

      I would like to ask a counter-question - and who in general is now interested in the opinion of the Georgians for any reason? And even more so - Russia?
      That is, they write here only for themselves ?! read and enjoyed my creation ?! Discussion only with ourselves :-)))?! Drum on the neck and fire
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Goral 11 August 2019 22: 03 New
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    Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
    Quote: Goral
    that the Bolshevik infection was successfully swept away by the Georgian Guard over the main Caucasian ridge.

    Yes Yes. True, in the end, for a small but very proud Georgia, it all ended, as always, deplorably. "The battle did not last long, timid Georgians fled." God did not give horns to a vigorous cow and brains at the same time.laughing

    Well, when you sign an agreement on Vasim recognition with a country that has just been seized by the Bolshevik trash, drowning its people in the blood, it was necessary to prepare in advance for a trickster. 3 years of independence and then the invasion of the 11th army, 3 months of resistance and the occupation of the country by Bolshevik Russia - which in Soviet historiography was bashfully disguised as "the entry of Georgia into the USSR." Definitely, you have something to be proud of ...
    1. Minato2020 16 August 2019 04: 39 New
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      Quote: Goral
      ... with the country that the Bolshevik trash had just captured, drowning its people in the blood ...


      Is it possible in more detail about the trash - in what year and by what forces it captured the whole country (but the Entente countries could not capture during the intervention), but then the people are dark, not in the know. At least a link?
      1. Goral 16 August 2019 23: 03 New
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        I mean the Bolshevik trash that captured Russia and drowned primarily its own Russian people in the blood. For me, the vector of development of the Russian Empire should not have been so interrupted but evolved as in Europe. Russia was then an integral part of the global Western / European culture / civilization. There would be neither those catastrophes nor misfortunes that fell on Russian and all the peoples of the Russian Empire in the 20th century. I am sure that if the Russian Empire then survived and did not fall victim to the Bolsheviks, now we would have a much closer, blissful and integrated space on 1/6 of the land.
        1. Minato2020 18 August 2019 04: 41 New
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          Quote: Goral
          I mean...


          Could it be more specific - the Latvian arrows, the Czechoslovak corps, Tukhachevsky, Bukharin? Are these the Bolsheviks?
          How about an invasion by recent allies to rob RI? Or are they indisputable authority in the part of Western / European culture / civilization? Or can they kill Russians, since they are carriers of high culture? And never the Bolsheviks.

          PS The wish is not too often to write the words "trash", because they are taken without warning.
          You can simply write the Bolsheviks. By the way, these are people who have read K. Marx and completed courses in Zurich and Geneva to meet European values. And then they were sent to conduct this activity in RI by the customers of the collapse of RI as a state.
          1. Goral 18 August 2019 21: 48 New
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            I did not quite understand your remark about the Latvian arrows and the Czechoslovak corps. I hope you will not argue that the victory of the Bolsheviks is precisely their merit. I did not talk about overseas invaders and hunters to profit from the troubles in a strange house. The fact is, however, that the Bolsheviks made this trouble in Russia, plunging one of the largest countries of European civilization into bloody chaos and a 70-year period of totalitarianism. It does not matter who and how he taught, quoted Marx. The fact is the defeat of the largest country in the world and millions of victims (primarily their own people). Because these fellows do not deserve more than trash
            1. Minato2020 18 August 2019 22: 45 New
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              Quote: Goral
              I did not quite understand your remark about the Latvian arrows and the Czechoslovak corps. I hope you will not argue that the victory of the Bolsheviks is precisely their merit.


              Losses of the Russian nation for 1917-1923 in the population, according to various estimates, from 40 to 60 million people. The destruction was attended by interventionists, Finns, Poles, Basmachis, the Czechoslovak Corps, and Latvian arrows.
              The Czechs in Russia in 1917-1923 performed the same functions of genocide and the staging of the puppet Anglo-American government, which is now performed by gangs in Libya and Syria.

              All this was done as part of the war, which was hushed up in the USSR and now in the Russian Federation.
              For example, the Russians do not know anything about the circumstances when the Russians took Berlin under Elizabeth Petrovna, after which the British Empire poisoned Elizabeth Petrovna, as before her dad.

              The Russians do not know anything about Great Game, a war waged by the British for more than 300 years, and then its successor, the American Empire against Russia.

              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game

              The Russians do not know that Emperor Pavel-1 was by no means a fool, he simply went against the British Empire, for which the majority of the Russian aristocracy worked through membership in Masonic organizations that were organizations of the British Empire and the main lodge was called the "Great Scottish Lodge". And Semyon Vorontsov, Russia's ambassador to London, was not only the organizer of the murder of Paul 1 and Alexander -1, but also the organizer of the “Decembrist” coup, after the failure of which he remained a defector in London.

              The Russians do not know that all the so-called "Narodniks" and Narodnaya Volya "revolutionaries of the 19th century were financed from England, where their first ideologist Herzen went for permanent residence.

              Russians do not know that the British Empire attacked Russia in 1853 with the main attack directed at St. Petersburg. From this epic, Russians know only a small piece, such as the "regional" Crimean War

              The Russians do not know that the Japanese attack on Russia was inspired and funded by the United States and Britain.

              The Russians do not know that the entire revolutionary movement in Russia at the beginning of the 20th century was led by Westerners, and first of all the Leninist RSDLP.

              The Russians do not even know that the leader of the "Russian" revolution of Trotsky, the USA was sent by ship from America!
              The Russians do not know that the “Trotsky” is not a proletarian at all, but in fact - the Kherson landowner - Leiba Davydovich Bronstein.

              The Russians do not know that since 1918 Russia was occupied by the troops of the Anglo-American coalition which genocide tens of millions of victims in Russia and brought its citizen Trotsky to power, and poisoned Lenin.

              There is not a word about this in Soviet and Russian books!

              The tsarist aristocracy was then expelled abroad, and those who resisted were shot. And there this royal aristocracy in exile still croaked in its emigration swamp for another 60 years; Somewhere in the 1970s, the last croaking subsided, but they managed to leave their memoirs. literary and journalistic creativity.

              The maximum genocide of Russians was in the Northern Black Sea region, the Kuban, Volga region and the Caucasus, that is, in the territory of the former Khazaria, as well as in the Far East. Under the guise of a "fight with the fist" several million more peasants.

              Quote taken on the Air Force website
              "Bukharin did not shoot and did not create a concentration camp, but he built the kingdom of terror with pen and word.
              From the pages of the Pravda edited by him, every day there were calls for "ruthless reprisals."
              "The issue of power will be resolved by a civil war that cannot be stopped with any spells," Bukharin said from the rostrum of the Constituent Assembly to MPs calling for national reconciliation.
              "Proletarian coercion in all its forms, from executions to labor conscription, is a method of working out communist humanity from the human material of the capitalist era," he wrote in 1920 in the Economy in Transition.
              "The GPU performed the greatest miracle of all time. It managed to change the very nature of the Russian man," he scattered in compliments in December 1927, when the 10th anniversary of the Cheka was celebrated.
              Some revelations of Bukharin cause a rash.
              “Honor, there is not a single house in Russia where we did not directly or indirectly kill a mother, father, brother, daughter, son or even a loved one,” the “favorite of the party” calmly stated in 1918. “
              http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/russian/russia/newsid_7294000/7294341.stm
            2. Minato2020 18 August 2019 22: 51 New
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              Quote: Goral
              The fact is, however, that the Bolsheviks made this trouble in Russia, plunging one of the largest countries of European civilization into bloody chaos and a 70-year period of totalitarianism. It does not matter who and how he taught, quoted Marx. The fact is the defeat of the largest country in the world and millions of victims (primarily their own people). Because these fellows do not deserve more than trash


              The fact is that in 60-80 years. the people in the USSR lived, and now they are engaged in survival.
              And who arranged it? The Bolsheviks? Communists?
              1. Goral 20 August 2019 19: 45 New
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                quote: -The fact is that in 60-80 years. the people in the USSR lived, and now they are engaged in survival.
                And who arranged it? The Bolsheviks? Communists?

                - oops .... I'm sorry, but I experienced this life in the 80s. Thanks, never again
                1. Minato2020 22 August 2019 19: 18 New
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                  Quote: Goral
                  oops .... sorry, but I experienced this life in the 80s in my own skin. Thanks, never again


                  It’s good when there is a personal comparison of life in the 80s and now, at least in the small Tskhaltubo.
                  Previously, the black “Volga” was driven into the slopes closer to the house, now it’s probably the Mercedes.
                  1. Goral 25 August 2019 21: 40 New
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                    There is experience in the 80s in Georgia and the RSFSR. In Georgia, they still relatively “survived” - everyone had relatives in the village and the empty shelves were compensated for by supplies of humanitarian assistance from relatives from the villages. It was harder in Russia. I don’t say anything about the idiocy of the ideological side of life, the party, etc. etc.
  • Goral 11 August 2019 22: 13 New
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    Quote: tihonmarine
    The Georgians needed Russian soldiers to bite off someone else's piece.
    In my opinion it is impossible to say better.

    Georgians fought side by side with Russian soldiers in all the wars of the Russian Empire. And even more so in the Caucasus. They do not need foreign territories. look ALL ancient temples on the territory of the so-called South Ossetia - all Georgian, medieval chroniclers did not know and did not notice Ossetians there until the 16th century. Ossetians moved from real Ossetia (today's North) to Georgia due to landlessness, overpopulation at their place and the devastation of Georgian villages as a result of permanent warriors with Ottomans and Persians. Georgian Tsars and feudal lords needed elementary people / peasants / wars. Therefore, there are a lot of documents and letters of Georgian kings on the topic of assistance and assistance in the resettlement of Ossetians from the North Caucasus to the South.
    1. Minato2020 16 August 2019 22: 33 New
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      Quote: Goral
      Quote: tihonmarine
      The Georgians needed Russian soldiers to bite off someone else's piece.
      In my opinion it is impossible to say better.

      Georgians fought side by side with Russian soldiers in all the wars of the Russian Empire. And even more so in the Caucasus. They do not need foreign territories.


      I read the story of a Jew convicted in the USSR for his religious beliefs.
      Because of this, he had great difficulties in finding a job.
      Armand David Lvovich. from the book The Way of the Theosophist in the Land of Soviets
      Here is what he wrote about Georgians:
      "... we got to Kutaisi.
      This city left us with the most nasty impressions. Despite the weekday and working hours, a huge number of dapper young lobsters walked around the streets and boulevards. It was completely incomprehensible how the local population lives. It was mainly concerned with cracking nuts and husk pollution of the streets. Leaving Galya for a quarter of an hour in the main square with backpacks to find out where the camp site is, I found her red with anger and fear, almost crying and fighting off a whole horde of hooligans riding on her. - Why don’t you know that in Georgia you can’t leave a girl alone on the street, especially a blonde? - friends told us later.
      Having barely escaped from a pack of dogs, we took refuge in a completely empty camp site inhabited only by bedbugs. We had to pay, but they didn’t give us money under the letter of credit, they didn’t have cash, they told us to wait a day or two. The only dining room in the city, which was supposed to feed tourists on a trip, was closed for three months, and the issuance of bread on cards was stopped. The camp site manager attacked us with rude abuse and simply drove us out when we explained our situation. I had to go to the station and wait a long time for the train to Poti. Georgians defiantly ignore the Russian language: at the station, the train schedule is written only in Georgian. Even in Shovi in ​​the restaurant there was only one inscription in Russian: "Do not spit cigarette butts on the floor." The money was finally found, and we left. I have always been free from national chauvinism, but I strongly dislike Georgians. I associate them with a crowd of flaming veils, casting greedy and impudent glances at passing women. No, of course, “the family has its black sheep”, there are good people in Georgia too, for example, old saw cutters who helped me find the stirrup ... "

      https://jlm-taurus.livejournal.com/124958.html
      1. Goral 17 August 2019 20: 38 New
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        Let me dig a shitty story about Russians right now and post it here, the effect will be the same.
        1. Minato2020 18 August 2019 04: 48 New
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          Quote: Goral
          Let me dig a shitty story about Russians right now and post it here, the effect will be the same.


          Come on, you can at least Rezun (Suvorov). I still have the books in this series in the front row.

          As for Armand Davidovich, this Jew had a hard time in the USSR. He was tried for Hasidic religious beliefs. They didn’t hire because of the fifth column and the availability of a criminal record. In his book, he is not at all happy about the Soviet regime. Nonetheless in his book
          Quote: "... I have always been free from national chauvinism, but I strongly dislike Georgians. I associate them with a crowd of flaming veils who cast greedy and impudent glances at passing women. No, of course," the family has its black sheep ” and good people in Georgia, for example, old saw cutters who helped me find the stirrup ... "


          PS Posting a story about the Russians is not necessary, just a link. I read with interest.
          1. Goral 18 August 2019 21: 54 New
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            What for ? Why should I put Mr. - but about the Russians here. I have no purpose to denigrate Russians as a people. Many on this site have a pathological hatred of Georgians. A kind of championship who is better poked. Sorry, but I do not become like them.
            1. Minato2020 18 August 2019 22: 55 New
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              Quote: Goral
              What for ? Why should I spread here about the Russians. I have no purpose to denigrate Russians as a people. Many on this site have a pathological hatred of Georgians. A kind of championship who is better poked. Sorry, but I do not become like them.


              On this site there is no pathological hatred of either the Baltic states or the peoples of Transcaucasia.
              You do not have to upload it, you can just link, because I read with interest the anti-Soviet who left the USSR. Now I’m reading the blog of a thin Jew from Haifa. He writes about Soviet tanks and aircraft in a negative way, based on the Arab wars.
  • Goral 11 August 2019 22: 48 New
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    Quote: Youri
    But this, you know, is not necessary. The Armenian kingdom of Orontides appeared ......

    Yes, of course, especially considering that the Orontids or Yervidy are a dynasty of Persian origin and were satraps of the province of Armenia
    1. Nikolay Gella 13 August 2019 13: 41 New
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      Do not answer the so-called "joker." He is already heavily punished by nature :) and the fact that he learned to write is a great achievement for him.
    2. Nikolay Gella 13 August 2019 14: 58 New
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      And do not argue with the Armenians (Youri (Youri) and the Operator) about the fate of Russia.
      1. Yuri 16 August 2019 14: 38 New
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        You are discerning. But there is enough Russian blood in me to voice opinions about the fate of Russia. No less moral right to it than anyone else
  • joker 13 August 2019 07: 26 New
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    ... Georgians, as an ethnos, at the end of the 18th century already disappeared from the forefront of History and only the intervention of Catherine the Great and subsequent emperors stopped this process ...
    or maybe it was not necessary to stop the process?

    A certain talker who is not very smart with the name Goral (Goral) made me laugh; here are some of his pearls with comments
    1 ... Moreover, the identity of the Georgian tribes with the kolkhas, who just did not indicate. From ancient Greek to Roman sources
    Who specifically, and where does the name of the Georgians mention?
    But why didn’t they write directly - Georgians? All Colchis, yes Iberia Poor answer?
    2 ... the first inhabitants in the Caucasus are generally Pithecanthropus, homo erectus and later Neanderthals along with Cro-Magnon people
    In fact, Cro-Magnons are white-skinned and blue-eyed. Pure Georgians? Yeah !!!
    3 ... About genetics, he laughed at all. The predominant group among Georgians is Semitic. !!!
    Then excuse me, but Georgians and Khachikians came to the Caucasus only during the Arab invasion, as part of their troops. But this is already the 7th century. And a new era!
    It turns out that their original homeland is Africa. By the way, where did the Khachikyans get Ethiopian scripts from their homeland!
    And in the Caucasus, they all settled only after the genocide of white-skinned and blue-eyed Cro-Magnons!
    A little tip to the Goral chatterbox (Goral) - next time before you bring nonsense, think about where you are taking it. I understand that you have a manka of greatness. But here there are people who know how to think. And you are not an authority for them. With a sinking heart, no one will look at your mouth. Get rid of narcissism.

    And lastly ... ALL the neighbors of Russia do not consider themselves "gifted" ...
    Everything is logical, you also do not consider yourself gifted. But look at the first three lines of the text.
    And yet, every BOR, investigator and judge, proves that he did not steal. Moreover, the thief shouts that his yuto has always been his.
    But genetics! Yes, and Cro-Magnons. About them Goral himself blabbed, no one pulled his tongue!
    If I'm wrong, prove it.
    1. Goral 13 August 2019 22: 43 New
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      especially for the Joker, some basics of the subject where he is trying to portray himself as overly smart:

      1. quote: “at the end of the 18th century, Georgians, as an ethnos, already disappeared from the forefront of History and only the intervention of Catherine the Great and subsequent emperors stopped this process ...”

      - Yes, it’s straightforward, so disappeared that the East Georgian Kingdom of Heraclius the Second by the end of the 18th century was the largest state formation in Transcaucasia. And whatever happens or becomes - go and guess with astrologers. We don’t do this here.

      2. quote "Who exactly, and where does the name of the Georgians mention?"

      - You were taught to read diagonally at school? Where did I write the Georgians? There are Georgian tribes. Pass from Trabzon to Pitius, from Macrons to Genius and you will be happy.

      3. citation: “Actually, Cro-Magnons are white-skinned and blue-eyed. Purely Georgians? AHA !!!”

      - Actually, you are an ignoramus and generally fell off the moon claiming such stupidity. At least watch lectures by anthropologist Stanislav Drobyshevsky in YouTube. The Cro-Magnons were dark-skinned and dark-eyed. It is entirely possible that a mutation on fair skin and eyes is a consequence of the 3% gene of Neanderthals received by modern Europeans and Middle East from the mixing of Cro-Magnon and Neanderthals. Learn materiel blond You are our Cro-Magnon :-)))

      4. citation: "About genetics, it’s completely cracked. The predominant group of Georgians is Semitic. !!!"
      - Well, why does the jester crawl into his own sphere :-)? Do you understand what you're talking about :-)))) what is Semitic? What is the rubbish in your brain?
      Go to school and learn to listen first, and then understand what they heard - a joker
  • Nikolay Gella 13 August 2019 14: 52 New
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    "the operation of Georgian troops against South Ossetia under the cynical name" Clean Field ""
    Note to the author - a clean field is not translated into Georgian. This says that it was invented by Kremlin propagandists.
    1. Goral 13 August 2019 22: 44 New
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      They have a TV for a long time and not only this nonsense drove into their brains
      1. Minato2020 16 August 2019 04: 53 New
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        Quote: Goral
        They have a TV for a long time and not only this nonsense drove into their brains


        TV and / or TV programs cannot drive stupidity if you have brains.
        1. Goral 16 August 2019 23: 05 New
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          Experience has shown that prolonged exposure to the drawer also carries brains.
          1. Minato2020 18 August 2019 05: 31 New
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            Quote: Goral
            Experience has shown that prolonged exposure to the drawer also carries brains.


            If the brains are taken out, then there’s nowhere to drive stupidity
            In fact - they don’t take out their brains on television, but they either say nothing or hold back
            Brains are carried out without any television

            The experiment "Wave". Of the Jews they made the Nazis without any television.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2ZyhbD_yGw

            The most famous social experiments conducted by psychologists in the middle of the last century that shocked humanity
            http://gzholdosh.ru/sotsialnyj-eksperiment-podchinyaemost/
    2. Minato2020 16 August 2019 04: 50 New
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      Quote: Nikolai Gella

      "the operation of Georgian troops against South Ossetia under the cynical name" Clean Field ""
      Note to the author - a clean field is not translated into Georgian. This says that it was invented by Kremlin propagandists.


      And what was the name of the military operation of the Georgian troops on 08.08.08/XNUMX/XNUMX - open the secret, do not languish!
      1. Goral 16 August 2019 23: 08 New
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        You need to ask the bald-headed and lover of ducks about this, it is their subordinates that have long been preparing a propaganda strategy against Georgia ahead of time. Only about such stupid punctures as "Clean Field" to the Russian inhabitant no one told anything, so it was possible to repeat tirelessly.
        1. Minato2020 18 August 2019 05: 38 New
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          Quote: Goral
          You need to ask the bald-headed and lover of ducks about this, it is their subordinates that have long been preparing a propaganda strategy against Georgia ahead of time. Only about such stupid punctures as "Clean Field" to the Russian inhabitant no one told anything, so it was possible to repeat tirelessly.


          On the Internet you can find only the name "Clean Field". For a decade, none of the participants from the Georgian side has disclosed this topic on Russian-language sites. Maybe shy?

          PS Suppose I find out the name of the operation from an amateur, but there’s more trust in the participants from the Georgian side, right?
          1. Goral 18 August 2019 22: 01 New
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            Fuck knows what the operation was called. Maybe it wasn’t called at all. Nowhere in Georgian media, nor in interviews with responsible people (politicians, military men), nor in Karkarashvili’s studies and white paper on the 2008 war does any name appear. And apparently he wasn’t really, as the operation in the form in which it had begun - was not prepared in advance. Everything went too chaotically. And the Georgian “Tsminda led”, which some stupid person in the Russian propaganda machine translated as “clean field”, in real life means “holy field”. If there was such a name, you would agree that it would sound somehow inadequate - what kind of holy field, where, why holy, and where does Tskhinvali in general?
            1. Minato2020 18 August 2019 23: 00 New
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              Any military operation begins with the name - Rezun (Suvorov) wrote about this in detail. The shift of military units, equipment, equipment and fuels and lubricants is carried out under the cover of some sort of name. So the name is "Tsminda led", and the fact that the translation means" holy field "is a common thing in the names of operations so that no one thinks about Tskhinvali.
              1. Goral 19 August 2019 22: 38 New
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                so the problem is that no one has heard of Tsminda Veli in Georgia. Someone blurted out something in Russia and, moreover, translated it incorrectly, put it into circulation, and did the Georgians make excuses? Why on earth. Who invented let him explain
  • Operator 16 August 2019 23: 57 New
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    Quote: Goral
    see here ALL Georgians with a Semitic phenotype

    It is enough to see you laughing
    1. Goral 17 August 2019 20: 36 New
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      Why didn’t you like my Aryan full face ?! :-)))