Raiders vs. Cruisers

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As is widely known, at the beginning of World War II, Germany tried to disorganise the Allied sea lines with the help of surface ships. Both warships of special construction, from “pocket battleships” to “Bismarck” and “Tirpitz”, as well as converted merchant ships, whose combat stability was ensured by their ability to disguise as a merchant ship.

Raiders vs. Cruisers

Scharnhorst. One of the most successful German surface ships




In the future, the growth of resistance of the Anglo-Americans to the sea led to the fact that the Germans stopped betting on surface ships in such operations and finally switched to conducting submarine warfare (omitting the "Condors" as a strike tool we’ll omit, in this case it doesn’t matter) . And, as is widely known again, Germany lost the submarine war in the 1943 year.

We, however, are interested in the stage with surface ships. It is of interest because, firstly, the Germans missed some opportunities, and secondly, the fact that they missed these opportunities contains a very interesting lesson that goes far beyond the Second World War.

But first, we note one important nuance. Very often, in relation to German surface ships that performed combat missions in communications, the word “raider”, derived from the word “raid”, is used in Russian literature. This is one of the problems of the modern Russian language - we do not call things by their proper names, which then prevents us from properly understanding the essence of events. Especially in a rigid form, this problem exists during translations, sometimes completely distorting the meaning of concepts. We will define the concepts to begin with - the German warships performed not just raids, they fought a cruising war on the communications of the British. These were cruising forces, and so it is necessary to understand the importance attached to them by the highest German military command. A raid is a type of action that is applicable not only in cruising war. Roughly speaking, a military expedition to hostile waters for the purpose of destroying convoys can be considered a raid, but not every surface ship raid is a cruising operation against shipping. In understanding this fact lies the lost opportunities of the Germans.

Cruising war and raids


According to the “Sea Dictionary” K.I. Samoilov, published by the State Naval Publishing House of the USSR NKVMF in 1941, was defined as “cruising war” as “operations against enemy maritime trade and against neutral commercial ships that deliver warfare to the enemy”. Was this what the Germans wanted to do and did? Yes.

Turn to the classics. In the epoch-making work of Alfred Thayer Mahan, "The Influence of Maritime Force on history"(Here they are, the difficulties of translation, because Mahan wrote not about sea power, but about power, power - power applied in time, continuous efforts, sea power, but this is completely different) about the war on communications there are such wonderful words:
The great harm done to the wealth and welfare of the enemy in this way is also undeniable; and although its commercial ships may to some extent hide during a war — deception, under a foreign flag, this guerre de course, as the French call such a war, or the destruction of enemy trade, as we can call, if done successfully, the government should be very worried enemy country and disturb its population. Such a war, however, cannot be waged on its own; it must be supported; having no support in itself, it cannot spread to a theater remote from its base. Such a base must be either domestic ports, or any solid outpost of national strength on the coast or at sea — a distant colony or a strong fleet. In the absence of such support, the cruiser can only dare to hurry flights at a short distance from its port, and its strikes, although painful to the enemy, cannot then be fatal.


и
... Such malicious actions, if they are not accompanied by others, are more annoying than weak. ...
Not seizures of individual ships and caravans, even in large numbers, undermine the financial strength of the country, but the overwhelming superiority of the enemy at sea, which expels its flag from its waters or allows the latter to appear only as a fugitive, and which, making the enemy the master of the sea, allows him to lock the water trade routes leading to the shores and from the shores of a hostile country. Such superiority can be achieved only through the medium of large fleets ...


Mahan gives a ton of historical examples of how these dependencies worked - and they worked. And, unfortunately for the Germans, they worked for them too - all of Germany’s attempts to wage a war on communications, not reinforcing it with surface actions fleetfailed. Germany lost both world wars, including due to the inability to withdraw England from the war. And if in the First World War Germany had a large fleet, which she simply simply did not really use, then in the Second everything was much worse - a surface fleet that could make Royal Navi at least wait for the German attack, abandoning active offensive operations, simply did not have. The Germans found a way out, without getting involved in battles with the British fleet, to try to destroy British trade by attacking transport ships and convoys from them. The exit turned out to be false.

But does this mean that German efforts in the war on the sea against Britain were doomed completely?

Let us turn to the concept of a different, than cruising war or cruising. Alas, with reference to the war at sea, foreign definitions will have to be used, translating them relatively accurately.

A raid is a type of military action of tactical or operational importance, when the attacking forces have a special task, and should not remain in the area of ​​the combat mission for a longer time than is assigned to accomplish it, but on the contrary, must leave it so quickly that the enemy is late counterstrike, and move away under the protection of the main forces.

It would seem that this definition is a great reminder of what has traditionally been called the word “raid” in our fleet. That's just the raid is performed by ships striking the land. The raid is a special case of the raid, the “special task” of which is that the attacking forces, ships, must strike the coastal target, whatever it may be, from fuel depots to the enemy ships in the base. Nowadays, the relevance of the raid actions is seriously reduced by the appearance of cruise missiles - now they just don’t have to go to the target on the coast, it is attacked from a great distance. But forty years ago, the raids were quite relevant.

Let us ask ourselves the question: if a raid is a special case of a raid, then there are other options for raider actions. Can a raid be considered a raid whose purpose is to destroy a guarded convoy and go back? As mentioned above - it is possible, and this will also be a special case of the raid, as well as a raid.

What is left behind the brackets? For brackets left raid operations aimed at the destruction of enemy warships, temporarily in the minority against raiding forces.

The Germans, faced with the total domination of the British, and then the Anglo-Americans at sea, chose an asymmetrical tactic - a cruising war, the impossibility of winning in which, without the support of a powerful fleet, Mahhen perfectly justified. At the same time, the possibility of sending raiders for the purposeful “shooting” of warships by the British was not fully used by the Germans. But such operations, firstly, would immediately begin to change the balance in the forces at sea in favor of Germany, if carried out correctly, of course, and secondly, and most importantly, the Germans had quite successful examples of such actions as really successful and potentially successful, but during which they again refused to achieve the result.

Consider three episodes of the German war at sea, and taking into account not only the actual results achieved, but also those from which Kriegsmarine refused to achieve.

But first, let us answer the question: does the fleet, which is fighting in a significant minority, have the prerequisites for achieving success against an adversary that is numerically superior and dominant at sea?

Speed ​​vs. Mass


The boxer knows the truism perfectly: a knockout is not a super hard blow, it is a missed strike. What is necessary for the enemy to miss it? It is necessary to be more technical and faster, and the force of the blow should simply be sufficient, and not prohibitively large. It is also needed, of course, but the main thing is speed. You should be faster. And hardier, so as not to lose speed too soon and have time to "catch" the moment.

This simple rule is never more applicable to military action. Getting ahead of the enemy in deployment, maneuver and withdrawal is the key to the success of raid actions, and even small forces against large ones can achieve this. Why is that? Because the adversary who dominates the sea is burdened with an obligation that he cannot refuse to fulfill — he must be literally everywhere.

Recall the Second World. The British fleet conducts operations "around" Norway. Fights with Italians in the Mediterranean. Conducts surveillance and patrol of the German coast, where it can. Holds strength in the metropolis. Guards convoys in the Atlantic. Empowers to chase raiders. And this dispersion of forces has obvious consequences - it’s not easy to assemble ships into a fist for the destruction of enemy forces, naturally, when an attacker ensures the surprise of his actions (which is a priori necessary for any combat operation).

Consider this problem on the example of the operation of the Royal Navy against the "pocket battleship" "Admiral Graf Spee". Formally, the British abandoned three formations of a total of one aircraft carrier, one battle cruiser, four heavy cruisers, and light cruisers hastily escaping to catch the “battleship”. In practice, these forces were so scattered across the South Atlantic that only one very weak combination of the heavy cruiser Exeter and two light cruisers Ajax and Achilles could detect the Admiral Spee. The rest were late, another British heavy cruiser arrived only when the Exeter had already lost its combat effectiveness from the fire of the Spee guns.

At first glance, the campaign "Spee", which ended with its self-drowning, is a complete failure. But we must clearly understand that this is not the failure of the ship and not the idea of ​​such a campaign, this is the failure of the battleship commander Hans Langsdorf. He won the battle stitch, he disabled the only enemy ship that could pose a serious threat to him, he had fire superiority over the remaining British ships. Yes, the Spee was damaged, its crew suffered losses. Yes, the enemy had superiority in speed. But on the other hand, the “Spee” had a tremendous superiority in range - only a week had passed since the receipt of the fuel, and the fuel on board was enough to break. Langsdorf could well, shooting, to leave at least from light cruisers.

Then, of course, it could turn out differently, but in those years it was quite a non-trivial task to drive a single ship into the ocean. It is not even easy right now. Even, rather, difficult. And what if Langsdorf made the decision to break? In the best case for the Britons, the result would be a long and exhausting chase across the ocean, where the British would need to introduce more and more ships into the operation, then to force Spée somewhere to fight, which is not a fact without loss. In the worst case, the British cruisers, who had spent fuel, would have been forced to throw off the course, the reinforcements would have been late or “overshot”, and the Spee would have gone home.

The fact that Langsdorf first drove his ship into a dead end, then, refusing to attempt to break through with the battle, he himself flooded it, and then shot himself, was not due to anything but his personal will. The British in the course of the war more than once sacrificed themselves in hopeless battles and died by whole crews for one or two hits on the target, and having the opportunity to escape. Nobody prevented the Germans from behaving in the same way.

There was no good option to take and swat the arrogant loner among the British, despite the monstrous superiority in forces over Kriegsmarine. Why? Because they had to be everywhere, and the ships are not an infinite number, and the enemy holding the initiative can take advantage of this.

This is the main prerequisite for the success of the raid, even in conditions where its goal is not attack convoys and other "cruising" actions, unable to ensure victory in the war, even if successfully completed, but search and destruction of weak combat groups and single enemy warships. To level the balance.

The Germans did not set themselves such plans and goals, they either did not understand their importance, or did not believe in feasibility.

The irony of fate is that they did it and did it well. But - by chance. Consider them in more detail.

Episode 1. Operation "Yuno"


4 June 1940, the German battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, and the heavy cruiser Admiral Hipper sailed from Wilhelmshaven to the open sea. By June 8, the German combat group already consisted of the Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, the heavy cruiser Admiral Hipper, the destroyers Z20 Karl Halster, Z10 Hans Lodi, Z15 Erich Steinbrink, and Z7XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX The compound was commanded by one of the most experienced German commanders, Admiral Wilhelm Marshal.


Admiral Wilhelm Marshall


The combat mission of the compound had a foray into Harstad, Norway. According to the German command, such an operation would ease the position of the German troops in Narvik. Thus began the German operation "Yuno" ("Juno"). However, on the same day, June 8, when the battle group moved towards its goal, the Germans learned that the allies were being evacuated from Norway. The attack has lost its meaning. Marshal, however, decided to find and destroy a convoy with evacuees.

He did not find him. The group managed to destroy only two transport ships - the military transport Orama and the tanker Oil Pioneer. Along the way, the minesweeper Juneper was sunk. But in the second half of the day, the combat group called “caught” a completely outstanding prize — the aircraft carrier Glories, escorted by a pair of destroyers. The results are known. The battleships sank everyone, and the only damage that the British managed to inflict is a torpedo hit from the destroyer Akast that cost the life and crew of the destroyer (remember the English ability to fight to the end, which Langsdorf lacked) and fifty sailors from the Scharnhorst.


Shots from Operation Yuno


Sunk during the operation of AB "Glories"


Now let's estimate how much the British had in the area of ​​operation. The aircraft carriers Glories and the Ark Royal, the heavy cruiser Devonshire, the light cruiser Coventry, and the light cruiser Southampton were in the immediate vicinity of the battlefield. At a distance of less than a forced daily transition were the battleships "Velient", "Rodney", the battle cruisers "Rhipals" and "Rinaun", the heavy cruiser "Sussex".


The scheme of operation "Yuno"


But - the paradox of maritime hegemony - all these ships had their tasks, they were not where they should be, or they could not abandon the escorted convoy, or they could not risk passengers on board ... ultimately, having sunk Glories and the destroyers of the escort, the Germans gone This luck was their random - they were not looking for a warship that could be drowned, relying on the fire superiority of a pair of battleships. But what prevented them from seeking such opportunities, do they understand the nature of war at sea a little bit better? Nothing. Find a convoy, destroy escort in battle, the remaining forces to catch up and melt as many transports as possible.

By a certain point, the British might well be faced with some shortage of warships. And this would make the German communications war, waged by submarines and auxiliary cruisers, much more successful. The British simply could not allocate as many forces to guarding convoys as they allocated in reality - they would have to hunt for raiders destroying their combat fleet faster than they could restore it. And if German submarines had already joined the hunt for warships somewhere in the Mediterranean ...

Of course, all of the above actually happened on the outskirts of Europe - off the coast of Norway. But after all, the Germans had quite successful military campaigns far into the ocean.

Episode 2. Operation Berlin


22 January 1941, the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau set off on a long voyage into the Atlantic with the task of sinking British convoys. In the course of this operation, a pair of ships caught the eyes of the English more than once, it was reported by attacked ships, and in general, the British had an idea about what was happening in the ocean. But, as has already been said, driving a surface ship into the ocean is not a trivial task, and this is to say the least. 22 March of the same year, a pair of battleships moored in Brest, and the British merchant fleet decreased by the 22 ship. The operation was commanded by Gunther Lutjens, who replaced Marshall's “all Kriegsmarine raider” because of the conflict with Röder. The replacement was not good and had fatal consequences. Master of the cruising war Marshal, the only admiral who sank an aircraft carrier in an artillery battle (at that time) and a capricious, capable of independent decisions commander, would still be more appropriate in place of Lyutyens.

What is characteristic of Operation Berlin? First, a pair of German battleships “combed through” British shipping with absolute impunity, although three times it ran into strong escorts. 9 February ships were dangerously close to the battleship Ramilies in the North Atlantic, 16 February south-west, they very little diverged from the battleship Rodney, 7 March to the east of the African coast likewise left the battleship Malaya and 20 in March spotted them aircraft from the aircraft carrier "Arc Royal". But the British didn’t manage to attack the German unit, although since the time of its launch into the sea, large forces had been sent to capture him. But the sea is big.


The scheme of operation "Berlin". Red mugs - sunk transport


Question: could the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau be able to destroy not the merchant ships, but the British warships? Consider the situation with the release of the German connection to the convoy HX-106.

On 8 December, only one ship was part of the convoy escort - the Ramilies battleship built in 1915.

The remaining half-dead destroyers of the First World War and the Flower Corvettes became part of the guard a few days later, after the alarm raised because of the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. In theory, the Germans might try to fight the British Briton and drown him. Of course, it was a risk: Ramilies X-inch guns could shoot at the same range as the German 15-millimeter guns, and the 280-inch projectile mass was much more. But on the other hand, the Germans had 15 trunks against 18 from Ramilias and excellence in maximum speed at about 8 nodes. This together allowed the British to impose any battle scenario.

Moreover, if the Germans had a little better debugging of the interaction between the surface and submarine fleets, the battleships could lure the English battleship out of order of the convoy, send the U-96 submarine to Ramilies, which already attacked the convoy after a couple of days, sinking a couple of transports, and then calmly kill all merchant ships from guns. This was all the more real, because in the same campaign the German ships did guide the submarines, just later. You could try to attack the battleship at night at the ultimate range of real fire, using the guidance on the radar. It was possible to fire a battleship, and then send a submarine on it. With the sinking of "Ramilies" in the Western Atlantic, the British had a very serious "hole" in the defense, which they would have to urgently close with something ... but what?

The damage to the Britons would be especially painful if the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were to go through all these anti-submarine trawlers, corvettes, destroyers of the First World War and the old leader who were on the way to the convoy in those days. It sounds ridiculous, but just a year ago, Britain was forced to make a deal "destroyers base", giving strategic military facilities for fifty decaying destroyers of the First World War, as one of the officers who took them - "the worst ships ever seen." The British experienced simply a monstrous shortage of escort ships, and those ships that they would use would have been shot by any of the German ships "dry." It would have been a much more painful blow than the sinking of merchant ships.

Lutiens blindly followed Hitler's order not to engage in battles with British surface ships. Operation Berlin did not entail a reduction in the combat strength of the Royal Navy of Great Britain. However, during this operation, the Germans showed that, despite the British dominance at sea, despite their numerical superiority in warships of all classes, despite the presence of aircraft carriers and deck aviation, a small connection of raiders can break through into the ocean, and conduct intensive military operations there, and return back. Which, in fact, happened, only the goals were chosen not by those.

Episode 3. Campaign "Bismarck" and "Prince Eugen"


Much has been written about this campaign, but for some reason no sane conclusions have been made. What can we learn from Bismarck’s first and last combat campaign? First, the raider can break into the ocean even if it is waiting for large forces. The Bismarck waited and it broke through.

Secondly, it is worth thinking about Lyutens’s request to give him Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and ideally Tirpitz, when he can go to sea, and postpone the operation until Tirpitz and repaired Gneisenau . Roder denied everything, and was wrong. During the "Berlin" Lutyens managed to perform a combat mission with two ships. It is self-evident that the British, for whom possession of the sea is a fixed idea, will take various measures to prevent the recurrence of such an incident. This means that in order to "attack in the same direction against an enemy already warned," it was necessary to bring larger forces into battle. Were the English ready for this? Not. So what? This means that the same forces that were actually thrown at him would be thrown at the interception of the German compound.

That is, even if, together with Bismarck and Prince Eugen in the Danish Strait, there also appeared, for example, Scharnhorst (even if it is only one), then all the same, the same “ Hood "and" Prince of Wales. " Only Germans would have nine more 280-mm trunks. And if the sinking of "Hud" is more likely a statistical fluctuation, then the failure of the "Prince of Wales" and its withdrawal from combat is a regularity in those circumstances. A “Scharnhorst” in the group would have made it natural, and not accidental, that the failure or sinking of Hud and much more severe damage on the battleship.

And thirdly, if the Germans would not pursue the ephemeral goal of fighting convoys, but would “raid” the surface fleet of the British, after the battle in the Danish Strait, Lutjens would have done what he had there and then asked the commander of Bismarck, captain Ernst Lindemann - chase the "Prince of Wales" and finish him. That is how the Bismarck’s first combat campaign would have ended, and after the battle with the battleship the compound had only one road - home to the nearest port for repair. And the task to finish off the "Prince of Wales" in those particular conditions does not look at all unreal.


Ernst Lindemann. Had such a man been in place of Lutjens, Bismarck would have returned from the march, and the British would have lost much more


In fact, if the Germans acted rationally, then up to a certain point they would “bring” a battleship from each campaign. And each time, reducing the military power of the Royal Navy would reduce the ability of the British to defend their convoys. The logic would be very simple - no battleship or cruiser in the convoy? Any German auxiliary cruiser can rewind the remaining escort junk and then send vehicles to the bottom in batches. Few auxiliary cruisers? But a lot of submarines, and in contrast to what was really in history, they will attack convoys or solo ships without an escort. Always or much more often than in reality. The infliction of continuous losses to the Royal Navy would facilitate the activities of the Italian Navy, and this, in turn, could affect the outcome of the battles in Africa, the same Rommel could have won at El Alamein if he had the fuel for maneuver. Everything was interconnected in the war at sea, and the Germans did not have to make transportation their main goal, but the warships that made Britain the "Lady of the Seas." Sooner or later they would have overstrained anyway, only the “wave” launched by the sinking battleships would change the course of the war and not in favor of the allies.

And when there would be a "break"? “Bismarck” died due to accumulated mistakes - Roder, who did not give Lutjens the necessary amplification, which he requested, and Lutjens himself, who first had to listen to the commander of his flagship, and then maintain discipline when using radio communications and not invent anything for the enemy. The death of this ship was not predetermined, at least there and then.

But it turned out as it happened, and as a result, in naval affairs, he understood absolutely nothing Hitler himself and strangled his surface fleet, depriving himself of yet another opportunity to delay or change the inevitable finale of small Germany’s war against almost the entire world.

The battle score at the end of 1941, however, was in favor of the Germans - they sank an aircraft carrier, a battle cruiser, two destroyers and a minesweeper in their surface raids. You can also add here a submerged cruiser (essentially a merchant ship with weapons) light cruiser "Sydney". The price of all this is one battleship and that auxiliary cruiser.

And, of course, submarines - they remained outside of our consideration, because the then submarines could not chase surface targets or jerk out of the raid through the floor of the ocean. It was difficult to use them precisely as an instrument of raiding aimed at the destruction of the enemy’s surface fleet. But to give a categorical order in the presence of a military goal to beat her, and not to wait for a safe opportunity to attack the transport, it was possible. Germany’s submarines were outnumbered by surface fleets and could sink and sink large surface ships of the British. By the end of 1941, their track record included two battleships, two aircraft carriers, one escort aircraft carrier, two light cruisers and five destroyers. The losses, of course, were incomparable with those in surface ships - by the end of 1941, the total number of submarines submerged reached German 68 units. And these losses, in contrast to Bismarck, were completely predetermined.

We can only guess what the Germans could achieve, they choose the right target from the very beginning. In the end, in the Pacific, American submarines sank more warships than all the other types of naval forces combined - 55% of all casualties, if you count by pennants. Nothing prevented the Germans to do the same.

Nothing prevented them from then coming to the naval battle groups from ships of different classes - battleships, cruisers and destroyers who would perform their specific tasks as part of the group, nothing would prevent later to interact with the submarine fleet, to include in the raid forces attached parts of the Luftwaffe their Fw200 ... that strap, which the KVMS of Great Britain could eventually drive the Kriegsmarine surface forces into the bases (in reality, Hitler did it) could be very, very high.

Lessons for modernity


Germany, with its powerful ground forces, was significantly inferior to its enemies in total sea power. In addition, its ports and bases were mostly isolated from the world ocean, where the main communications of the allies were held. Today, Russia is in the same position. Our fleet is small, it does not have a coherent strategy of application, and it will not endure a battle with the fleets of potential enemies. And the economy will not allow us to build a fleet comparable to the US, and not only in it, even if we had the money, the demographic “wave” on the threshold of which our society stands, simply will not allow us to form as many crews and coastal parts. We need a new paradigm, and it is very desirable that it should not be reduced to nuclear suicide as the only scenario, although no one is going to be dismissed.

And in this sense, the idea of ​​raids aimed at weakening enemy fleets deserves careful study. In the end, what, if not, were the massive air strikes planned by the US and NATO naval forces planned in Soviet times? Raids as they are, and their goal was just warships. After all, what has fundamentally changed since the Second World War? Satellite intelligence? They know how to deceive her, and missiles that can knock down a satellite on American ships already exist, and may appear on the rest in the foreseeable future. And a shipborne radar capable of providing DD for a target in near-earth orbit is no longer a reality, but rather a story, albeit the newest one. Over-the-radar? The mass distribution of sea-based cruise missiles will bring the game out of the game during the first hours of the conflict. All-weather long-range strike aircraft? But the organization of accurate air strikes on surface targets at a distance of a thousand kilometers or more is so difficult that most countries in the world will not even take it. The sea is big. Nuclear submarines? They can chase the high-speed surface target only at the cost of complete loss of stealth. We can easily face the fact that very little has changed since the Second World War, and that it is still incredibly difficult to “catch” a surface ship in the ocean, even when you almost know where it is.

And that the shipboard strike group may well fight off aviation as well, as it was more than once in the past. And then the old experience suddenly turns out to be very valuable and useful, provided that it is correctly understood.

How can raiders be deployed in the ocean? And just as the USSR did in advance of bringing the forces of the fleet to combat service. Only there they were in a position from which it was possible to lead the enemy in tracking weapons and, if necessary, deliver an immediate blow to him, and the deployment regions were the same almost always. In our case, tied to the Mediterranean, or something else is not necessary.

What is the key to success today? And the same as in the past - the forces of the modern naval hegemon are also scattered throughout the planet in small groups - AUG "peacetime" with a couple of destroyers in the escort, amphibious combat groups formed "around" UDC with airplanes, they are all basically very far from each other, significantly farther than the range of the daily transition at maximum speed.

And all this, of course, does not eliminate the need to sink military tankers. But they must be followed by a strike on an aircraft carrier, whose fighters remained for a couple of days without kerosene.

What should be the raider ship? Pretty powerful. It should have a lot of missiles, both for strikes on the coast (on airfields for neutralizing aircraft), and for strikes on ships and submarines. He must have a powerful defense. It must significantly exceed the competitors in the range of the course and maximum speed - just for separation from the superior naval forces of the enemy.

And of course, such actions should be worked out, both on the map and at sea, with a real adversary. Learn from him and lucidly show what awaits him if their politicians bring the matter to a real explosion. Continuously improve and experiment, to always put the enemy in front of a fait accompli.

So that later, in the future, other people's descendants would not argue idly about the opportunities we have missed.
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  1. 0
    30 July 2019 18: 11
    Thank you, interesting and detailed!
    1. -1
      31 July 2019 21: 17
      So smoothly at the end we were let down by the need to build an atomic super destroyer raider. If without irony, then an Arlan-type cruiser is the Tirpitz of our time, if I still don’t want to equip them with calibers, I don’t want to. Ideal Cruisers Raiders
      1. 0
        1 August 2019 10: 37
        No not like this. In fact, the following is critical for a raider:

        - long range.
        - 20-22 of an economical running unit, 34-36 maximum, reliability, which allows to go for a long time to max. move without reducing the resource GEM.
        - An air defense system giving chances to repel a one-time raid of a decked wing, naturally in combination with maneuvering and jamming.
        That is, roughly speaking, "Redoubt" with a stock of 50-60 missiles, a pair of Shells, PU dipoles with a large ammunition load, maybe a couple more anti-aircraft guns, plus projectiles with programmable detonation for MZA and controlled for art. tools.
        Two helicopters to the ship.

        All this is realized at about 2 prices of the main 22350. Even Ukraine would have pulled if it could technically.
        1. 0
          2 August 2019 09: 40
          Good afternoon! We already have the previously mentioned project 22350 overloaded with weapons and insanely expensive that everything was shoved into its size and led to a rise in price. For the current amount of armament, the frigate’s dimensions with a displacement of 7,5 thousand tons are optimal. It is good that our Navy has come to its senses, but in its repertoire we will increase the displacement and add missiles to pu. It is necessary to decide on the introduction of highly automated control processes and survivability of naval ships in the Navy.
          1. 0
            2 August 2019 16: 12
            It is expensive not because it has a lot of weapons (it is quite a world level, in fact, not even once higher), but because it is one continuous innovation. Everything that it was made of was invented and built already in the post-Soviet period. As a result, the entire financial burden of the OCD fell on the lead ship. Kasatons are already cheaper, the next pair will be even cheaper (adjusted for inflation, of course).

            Similarly, this ship was covered by the costs of import substitution of Ukrainian gearboxes.

            In general, this is one of the few programs in the fleet that the country can be proud of - if we talk about the results, of course, and not about the timing and how everything was organized.
            1. 0
              12 August 2019 22: 40
              There are no import substitutions for gas turbines including gearboxes on 22350 ships. All 4 ships are equipped with Ukrainian gearboxes and gas turbine engines. In addition, R&D financing is always provided in separate articles, so R&D costs cannot be included in the cost of the ship. Rybinsk Saturn mastered billions on the subject of predictable result. You are off topic ...
              1. 0
                13 August 2019 11: 31
                The Ministry of Defense does not use the abbreviation R&D.
                There is scientific research work.
                There is OCD - experimental design development.
                The creation of the lead ship is OCD, it includes its design, and all the experimental work and construction, and testing.
                At the same time, the development price includes ALL developments necessary for the creation and subsequent production of the ship. For example, if the lead, serial two of the following are equipped with Ukrainian gearboxes, but the development of Russian is required to continue the series, then its cost is included in the cost of the R&D and, like all R&D financing, goes through the lead developer of the development, the design organization.

                Rybinsk is quite ready to produce M70 and M90FRU.

                So this is another question, who is in the subject and who is not.
                1. 0
                  14 August 2019 12: 39
                  Once again, R&D, R&D, OCD are funded separately, often as part of the federal target program.
                  M70 is also Ukrainian delivered in the early 2000s, through ZAO "Turborus". Once again, all 4 frigates 22350 have Ukrainian Turbines and gearboxes. Also GTD-110 M, supplied from Ukraine and VK-2500 airborne engines.
                  Blessed is he who believes ...
  2. -5
    30 July 2019 18: 15
    What should be the raider ship? Pretty powerful. It should have a lot of missiles, both for strikes on the coast (on airfields for neutralizing aircraft), and for strikes on ships and submarines. He must have a powerful defense. It must significantly exceed the competitors in the range of the course and maximum speed - just for separation from the superior naval forces of the enemy.

    Yeah. And it is necessary that there were main guns of 9 pieces and so that no less than 410 mm. So there are more torpedoes, more atomic ones. So that the armor was wow, so that the ship could be put in line, like armadillos. A nuclear reactor (but better 3) for speed, 70 kilometers per hour is enough. And more calibers, more ...
  3. +3
    30 July 2019 18: 33
    The ideas are sound and interesting.
    Although, something this reminds me of - the war 8-15 years ago in EVE Online. If you have fewer capital / supercapital ships than your opponent - catch enemies one by one and take risks, otherwise you will lose in standing fullfights :).
    1. -1
      1 August 2019 00: 43
      So the author most likely used the game for conclusions and conclusions!
  4. +1
    30 July 2019 18: 41
    Good article.
  5. +8
    30 July 2019 19: 16
    Yes, Spee was damaged, his crew suffered losses. Yes, the enemy was superior in speed. But “Spee” had a tremendous superiority in range - from the moment of receiving fuel only a week passed and there was enough fuel on board to take off. Langsdorf could very well, while firing, escape at least from light cruisers.

    With the departure of the "Spee" has a problem: the British achieved an extremely successful hit, which disabled the oil filters and desalination plant.
    Graf Spee: 36 dead, 60 wounded. Seventeen 6 inch hits causing minor damage, two 8 inch hits in nonvulnerable areas below armor deck, but oil purification and desalination plants destroyed, all kitchens wrecked. Ammunition stocks very low.

    Langsdorf could very well, while firing, escape at least from light cruisers.

    Then raise the white flag. For already in the battle with Harwood, Langsdorf shot 2/3 of the ammunition of the Civil Code.
    By the way, do not forget that you will have to break through a couple of KRLs in the evening or at night - and the "Linders" are equipped with torpedo tubes.
    1. +6
      31 July 2019 04: 14
      Ruge, in his fundamental work "War at Sea", wrote that a wide solar trail remained behind the departing Spee and the ship was rapidly losing fuel ("golden bullet" as in the case of "Hood"). With regard to the ammunition load, you are also right, for a serious battle the ship no longer had it.

      As for the death of "Glories", the entire team, including the officers, did not describe their commander as a complete psychopath. So it is still unknown whose merit is greater here, the Germans, or their own commander.
      1. +1
        1 August 2019 10: 42
        I modestly remind you that ships do not make one common tank for the entire fuel supply.

        In Kamchatka, in the 90s, the "Guarding" TFR went with a fuel leak for several years, nothing, the world did not change lol And the rainbow track behind him was normal.

        This one in itself did not mean anything. Langsdorf did not even nearly exhaust all the possibilities to resist.
        1. 0
          1 August 2019 14: 10
          This one in itself did not mean anything. Langsdorf did not even nearly exhaust all the possibilities to resist.

          They broke the filter unit; they already told you that. His high-tech diesel engines would die without fuel filtration.

          The raider's problem is "injury (relatively little damage) means death." With minimal damage, the Briton would have left the nearest port for repairs. A German would have to drown

          Yes, and your balance is strangely calculated: in the losses of the Germans, the "pickpocket" disappeared somewhere
          1. +1
            2 August 2019 16: 15
            His high-tech diesel engines would die without fuel filtration.


            Oil, not fuel. More attentively.

            Looped up "to fight" would be enough. I assert this to you as a person who saw SUCH violence over German engines that no one would have believed)))

            Yes, and your balance is strangely calculated: in the losses of the Germans, the "pickpocket" disappeared somewhere


            I do not like suicides.
        2. +1
          1 August 2019 22: 33
          Alexander, you, sorry, compared KAMAZ with Zaporozhets, how much does one eat and how much is the other?
          And it was not only about the fuel ... How much time did the “Spee” have shells left in a serious battle?
          I do not in any way justify von Langsdorf's act, but the same Ruge wrote that the hardships of a solo campaign and the subsequent battle with cruisers "obviously broke von Langsdorf so much that he lost the ability to adequately perceive the situation."
          Once in the magazine "Mauger", in an article about La Plata, there was a photograph of the funeral of the dead German sailors. To the left of Langsdorf, who was almost sobbing, stood the German ambassador and looked askance at him from underneath. The magazine was, of course, in Polish, but the caption under the photo was translated something like this: "Look with what contemptuous expression the ambassador looks at von Langsdorf." If you try to reproduce the way it sounds in Polish, you will get the following: "... His (ambassador's) muzzle of the bardzo is washed out." I cannot vouch for the accuracy. hi
          1. +1
            2 August 2019 16: 17
            And it was not only about the fuel ... How much time did the “Spee” have shells left in a serious battle?


            Yes, even if only one.


            But the rest of your comment is just super. That's right, it broke and "went to the bottom". It wasn't about the damage.

            While you are alive, there is no death. Fight. As you can and how you can. Or it was necessary to go to pharmacists.
            1. 0
              2 August 2019 16: 53
              Yes, even if they didn’t exist at all, he would completely destroy an entire ship himself, this does not cause much respect. Although to the insignificance of Admiral Nebogatov, he did not fall. The ship blew up, he himself ended the calculations with life. Nebogatov didn’t have enough for that either.
              A romantic, Ruge wrote that the ideal for von Langsdorff was the commander of Emden, Karl von Müller. Did not work out. Although both are "backgrounds", they look different against the general background (sorry for the involuntary pun).
              In any case, the British here played an excellent lead, and even fought like hell against a much stronger opponent. But this is precisely what causes sincere respect.
              1. 0
                2 August 2019 17: 07
                against a much stronger opponent

                Which one is "stronger"? There was a pickpocket armor - only one visibility: it did not correspond to the class.
                One Zhkseter certainly pretty inferior to Deutschland, but Exeter + 2 KrL - like min parity
                1. 0
                  2 August 2019 17: 21
                  By definition, there can be no parity between 280 mm on the Spee and British 6-8 inches. The German armor may not "correspond to the class", but the British simply did not have it. Completely different class of boxes in all respects.
                  1. +1
                    3 August 2019 10: 29
                    The German armor may not "correspond to the class", but the British simply did not have it.


                    Who told you that? Not only on Exeter, but also on Ajax and Achilles, of course, there was armor. Do not indulge in fantasies.
                    A completely different class of boxes in all respects.

                    Not at all. The Deutschlands are a heavy cruiser by class. (Or did you take the word "pocket LINCOR" too seriously?)
                    One-on-one Exeter against Spee does not pull, of course, but Exeter + Ajax + Achilles --- already quite. This was demonstrated: while SUA von Spee was occupied by Exeter, Achilles and Ajax managed to set up a fuel treatment station (or oil, according to the Author) on Spee. And the British plan was to take the plug and torpedo. (Didn’t ask - Exeter lasted too little)

                    In general, the Deutschlands were experimental ships and therefore not the best: including the armor on them did not at all correspond to either artillery or tasks.
                    1. +1
                      3 August 2019 16: 09
                      Thank you, Andrey, you flattered me, I was called a "dreamer" in my early childhood, about 65 years ago. If you want to engage in verbiage, then on health, I'm not going to participate in this. Let me just remind you of the following: cruisers are divided into several different types - light, heavy and linear. And the armor on them, according to the rank, is different, and the cover of the hull with this bonnet is not the same. But they are all cruisers. For simplicity of perception: both "Tiger" and "BT-7" - both are tanks and are also subdivided into light and heavy, but it would never occur to anyone to compare their combat capabilities.
                      What the British managed to do is the result of Harwood's competent tactics, courage and training of crews and commanders of British cruisers. Those. what the Germans did not have, especially von Langsdorf.
                      And the Deutschlands were not experimental ships, they were built at a time when Germany still did not have the audacity to openly build battleships. Therefore, it turned out, do not understand what, and the Germans themselves called them battleships at first.
                      Yes, and thanks for explaining that the Deutschland is a heavy cruiser. As a child, in 1961, I was given the "Handbook of Foreign Fleets for 1943". (ledger weighing four kilograms))), well, the class of these ships was marked in black and white there - Heavy Cruisers. But thanks anyway.
                      1. +1
                        4 August 2019 20: 41
                        Let me just recall the following: cruisers are divided into several different types - light, heavy and linear. And the armor on them, according to the rank, is different, and the cover of the hull with this armor is not the same


                        This is verbiage. But the fact is the fact: the armor was. But on the Deutschlands, the armor was not in class --- thin-witted.

                        What the British managed to do is the result of Harwood's competent tactics,


                        What is it? The usual tactics

                        the courage and training of crews and commanders of British cruisers. Those. what the Germans did not have, especially von Langsdorf.

                        Et yes - Roder managed to find ... frames, sir.

                        In principle, there is a well-known problem: peacetime officers are not suitable for war. In the ground forces, the Germans managed to get around this problem - but the fleet

                        And the Deutschlands were not experimental ships,

                        There were-were-a diesel cruiser. Neither before nor after. Pure water experiment (and not very successful)

                        they were built at a time when Germany still did not have the audacity to openly build battleships.

                        And what does the battleship have to do with it --- if the Deutschlands are pure cruisers ????

                        Therefore, it turned out do not understand that, and the Germans themselves at first called them armadillos.

                        It turned out "understand that" --- a heavy cruiser and it turned out. And what they called .... well, they were so deceived.

                        Yes, and thanks for explaining that the Deutschland is a heavy cruiser.

                        Always happy.
                      2. +1
                        5 August 2019 01: 24
                        This is verbiage. But the fact is the fact: the armor was. But on the Deutschlands, the armor was not in class --- thin-witted.


                        Tonkovat for whom? The Germans initially generally positioned these ships as armadillos.

                        What is it? The usual tactics


                        Ordinary is when it is always and everywhere. An example of the designated "custom" please.

                        Always happy.


                        I am also glad that you are always happy.
    2. 0
      1 August 2019 10: 39
      Does the example of "Akasta" from the same article hint at anything? It is clear that Langsdorf could no longer melt the Britons. But there is no need to prove that he had no opportunity to resist at all.
      1. +1
        1 August 2019 14: 13
        Does the example of "Akasta" from the same article hint at anything? It is clear that Langsdorf could no longer melt the Britons. But there is no need to prove that he had no opportunity to resist at all.


        I didn’t. I could not get away from the cruisers and dump them. And it would mean a whole crowd gathered around.

        But Lansdorf, of course, was deceived: he believed that large forces were already on the way, already close.
        If I didn’t believe in it, I might have risked breaking through
        1. +1
          2 August 2019 16: 19
          This is not an excuse.

          He did not try. If he tried and could not it would be one conversation. But he did not try.

          Sank the ship without a fight and fired a bullet in the head.
  6. -1
    30 July 2019 19: 19
    As the saying goes, "... smoothly written in the paper ..." here you still need to calculate the actions of the opponents, otherwise suddenly he, having a numerical superiority, will start active raiding, as a result, all available forces will have to be thrown into repelling these raids instead of organizing their
    1. +1
      1 August 2019 10: 40
      So the adversary had some strength with the enemy. I had to pay for the destroyers of the First World Territory.
  7. +1
    30 July 2019 19: 22
    “We need a new paradigm, and it is highly desirable that it does not boil down to nuclear suicide as the only scenario, although no one is going to discount it.

    And in this sense, the idea of ​​raids aimed at weakening enemy fleets deserves careful study "Nonsense, sorry for the harshness.
    "In the end, what, if not raids, were the massive airstrikes planned in Soviet times on the US and NATO ship groupings?"
    A kind of consumables in the form of a pair of missile-carrier aviation regiments for 1 (one) AUG and even with the use of nuclear weapons.
    "What kind of raider ship should be? Quite powerful. It should have a lot of missiles, both for strikes on the coast (at airfields to neutralize aviation) and for strikes against ships and submarines. It should have powerful air defense. It should be essential. surpass competitors in cruising range and maximum speed - just for the breakaway from the superior naval forces of the enemy "
    Well, yes - an improved "Orlan". not expensive? And they will sink him in the first hours (days)
    Ievinite, gentlemen - all this is crap devoid of logic and pursuing selfish interest.
    1. 0
      1 August 2019 00: 41
      Mark1 agrees with you completely! As a kind of naval historical excursion into the past, the article rolls for reading enthusiasts, but here are the conclusions! Conclusions do not stand up to criticism. It's ridiculously simple.
  8. +3
    30 July 2019 19: 50
    The main critical points:

    1. Practice has shown that any "raid" ended with a long repair, even if the ships returned home. And this is a long downtime of ships, of which there are only a few. If the German forces acted more aggressively, the ships would be lost or be in a long-term repair even faster, sinking fewer transports.

    2. If there were more raiders, and their attacks more often, the allies would have counteracted this by enlarging convoys (and security forces) and other warrants on missions to such a size that the raid could not have passed without losses. And, again, we look at point 1: these raiders would have ended even earlier.


    As in almost all dubious events, problems come from incorrect goal setting or from the complete absence of a clear goal.


    Strictly speaking, the German fleet was created and used in different periods. After the 41st (well, 42nd) year, the goals and objectives of the German fleet were reduced to maximizing damage to the logistics of the Allies simply because there were no other tasks for him. Spending the resources that went into this fleet could have been more effective if we knew how the campaign to the east would turn out. But what was it was.


    The same problem, by the way, still faces the Russian Navy today. It is the lack of a clear answer to the question “what for do we really need us?” Is the main weakness.
    1. +1
      31 July 2019 13: 03
      Quote: Sancho_SP
      If there were more raiders, and their attacks more often, the allies would have counteracted this by enlarging convoys (and security forces) and other warrants on missions to such a size that the raid could not have passed without losses.

      This fact would dramatically reduce traffic.
      1. 0
        31 July 2019 13: 19
        How? Instead of five small convoys, one large one of that volume would go.
        1. +1
          1 August 2019 05: 39
          Collecting one large convoy instead of five small ones is a waste of time, which can become critical. A lot of fuel and ammunition, but then ... they may no longer be needed, but little by little, but in time they can save the situation.
        2. 0
          1 August 2019 12: 39
          Quote: Sancho_SP
          How? Instead of five small convoys, one large one of that volume would go.

          When Britain introduced the convoy system, considerable time was spent on their formation, as a result of loading problems, refueling at one port and collecting the convoy. As a result, traffic fell 2,5 times due to delays. The non-convoy system worked better, and then they returned to it.
          Large convoys would delay logistics even further. Even at train stations, the formation of convoys takes days, and the formation of convoys in ports takes weeks.
    2. 0
      1 August 2019 10: 48
      1. Well yes, so what? Was it easier to keep the ships in the bases until their aircraft were bombed?

      2. Well, then the other sites would be bare. Raiding operations would be easier. In addition, as Operation Berlin showed, surface watermen could direct submarines to targets. At the same time, ensuring their survival when destroyers with depth charges try to chase submarines.

      This is the pressure of a strong fleet that the Germans did not have.

      Strictly speaking, the German fleet was created and used in different periods. After the 41 (well, 42) year, the goals and objectives of the German fleet were reduced to maximizing damage to the logistics of the Allies simply because there were no other tasks for it.


      After the 41, the United States entered the war and there was nothing to do in the Atlantic, and immediately begin the transition to CC anti-airborne defense.

      The same problem, by the way, still faces the Russian Navy today. It is the lack of a clear answer to the question “what for do we really need us?” Is the main weakness.


      That's right.
      https://topwar.ru/157910-idejnyj-tupik-rossijskogo-flota-net-rossijskogo-obschestva.html
    3. 0
      2 August 2019 03: 54
      You're right. Even the very fact of the complete destruction of all raiders provides an excellent example of their vulnerability. Moreover, they were quickly destroyed even in WWII, what can we say about the current state of affairs with the means of detection. Well, one more example of "contra" is the supply of raiders. Even then it was a problem both with the "breakers" of the blockade and with the underwater "cows". What to take as an example and a model today? Especially considering the composition of the quantitative and qualitative Fleet of the Russian Federation?
  9. +4
    30 July 2019 20: 01
    That is, even if, together with “Bismarck” and “Prince Eugen” in the Danish Strait, there would still be, for example, “Scharnhorst” (even if he is alone), then anyway, the very same would fight with them “ Hood ”and“ King George V ”.

    Actually, along with "Hood" was "The Prince of Wales". The new one is so much so that, in addition to the regular team, civilian specialists continued to work on board (one of them served the SUAO in battle). wink
    And thirdly, if the Germans had not pursued the ephemeral goal of fighting the convoys, and had “raided” the British surface fleet, then after the battle in the Danish Strait, Lutens would have done what Captain Ernst asked the Bismarck commander there and then Lindemann - chase “King George V” and finish him off.

    Yeah, yeah ... at full speed fly into the smoke screen, in which or behind which two SRTs with torpedo tubes are waiting for him (they were definitely on the Norfolk, and the second SRT could well be identified by the Germans as "Kent" - that's us now we know that it was a torpedo "Suffolk"). Worse than that, chasing destroyers on a battleship in the smoke (along the way, mothers of their cruisers, traditionally whistling far away). smile
    In addition, the longer the Bismarck stays in the Danish Strait, the more RN forces it will meet on its way back.
    And one more thing - do not forget about the damage to the German LC. The trim on the bow is 3 degrees, the roll to the left side is 9 degrees, the right propeller is partially exposed, the boiler room No. 2 is flooded. Counterflooding doesn't help. Speed ​​is limited to 22 knots - an urgent need to close the hole. And now, with all this, you need to catch up with the "Prince", whose speed, according to the reference books of that time, was 30 knots (trust the reference books). smile
    1. +2
      31 July 2019 11: 07
      in addition, the author of the article forgot about the British air intelligence factor.
      It was Spitfire who spotted Bismarck in the Danish Strait, after which the kipesh began with interception.
      and pursuing the battleship, the Germans would be approaching the land, risking grabbing both unmask and shock attacks and unknown support forces.
      1. +2
        31 July 2019 12: 31
        The Spitfire is the discovery of the Bismarck in Norway.
        In the Atlantic, the departing Bismarck was discovered by the Catalina, EMNIP, with a mixed Anglo-American crew.
        1. 0
          1 August 2019 11: 03
          The Americans were in a carriage, yes.

          But the fact is that after this discovery, the Bismarck was lost again.

          And they did not find it until Lutens began an intensive radio exchange with the shore.

          And, I think, they would not have found it if not for this.
    2. 0
      1 August 2019 10: 54
      Damn, I think about one ship, stuffing another. What a misfortune ...

      Yeah, yeah ... at full speed fly into the smoke screen, in which or behind which two SRTs with torpedo tubes are waiting for him (they were definitely on the Norfolk, and the second SRT could well be identified by the Germans as "Kent" - that's us now we know that it was a torpedo "Suffolk"). Worse than that, chasing destroyers on a battleship in the smoke (along the way, mothers of their cruisers, traditionally whistling far away).


      I think you overestimate the readiness of the English heavy cruisers to launch a torpedo attack.
      After all, they were dragging behind the Bismarck for quite a long time in the fog, they had the opportunity to dash to the launch distance.
      What prevented something?

      "Bismarck" I will note, could continue to operate together with "Eugen". In general, the situation was not hopeless.

      And one more thing - do not forget about the damage to the German LC. The trim on the bow is 3 degrees, the roll to the left side is 9 degrees, the right propeller is partially exposed, the boiler room No. 2 is flooded. Counterflooding doesn't help. Speed ​​is limited to 22 knots - an urgent need to close the hole. And now, with all this, you need to catch up with the "Prince", whose speed, according to the reference books of that time, was 30 knots (trust the reference books).


      But he, too, was damaged, this time, to rub with such damage to Brest was in itself prohibitively risky these two. Lindemann was completely right, he had to take all the risks, they were much lower than those that Lutiens then took, and the Germans were far from zero chances to drag the extra scalp.

      Honestly, you should be respected, so you can’t fight at all - it’s dangerous laughing
  10. +5
    30 July 2019 20: 03
    In the end, in the Pacific, American submarines sank more warships than all the other types of naval forces combined - 55% of all losses, if you consider the pennants. Nothing prevented the Germans from doing the same.

    To do this, you need nothing at all — so that the Allied PLO of naval formations and approaches to bases would be the same as the Japanese. laughing
    1. +3
      31 July 2019 04: 24
      Well, Alexei, not with an eyebrow, but with the eye they deigned to poke. laughing

      Apparently, the Japanese simply did not know what PLO, convoys and all the ingredients accompanying it were. request
      1. +3
        31 July 2019 10: 30
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Apparently, the Japanese simply did not know what PLO, convoys and all the ingredients accompanying it were.

        Yes, they knew what PLO is. It was just that the money was either for a large fleet, or for a PLO. And given the fact that in a short war, PLO convoys are not particularly needed, but powerful main fleet forces are needed - you yourself understand that IJN was chosen. smile
        If Japan has come to the point that the enemy submarines pose a significant threat to communications, then this means that the war dragged on. And Japan loses the long war in any way.
      2. +1
        31 July 2019 13: 11
        They were a little saved by the problems of the Americans with their own torpedoes.
        During the war, the Americans used two types of torpedoes: combined-cycle Mk14 and electric Mk18, created on the basis of the captured German torpedo G7.
        Formally, the Mk14 had better technical characteristics compared to the Mk18, but left a mark on the water and, despite numerous alterations, had low reliability. So, during the tests of 1943, out of ten torpedoes dropped from a height of 27 m onto a steel plate, seven fuses did not work. Operation revealed a number of shortcomings in the Mk18:
        ignition of hydrogen generated by batteries;
        slowdown of torpedoes while lowering the temperature of the batteries in cold sea water;
        weak tail.
        After refinement, the Mk18 torpedoes became the most successful in the US Navy: during the Second World War, they sank 65% of the total number of enemy ships destroyed.
        1. +5
          31 July 2019 17: 45
          Quote: hohol95
          They were a little saved by the problems of the Americans with their own torpedoes.

          Little?! belay
          July 24, 1943 SS-283 "Tinoza" attacked a Japanese tanker. Fired 15 torpedoes, achieved 13 hits - and only 4 explosions. The last 7 torpedoes, the submarine commander fired one at a time - a campaign, purely for compiling statistics on failures.
          Uv. Nikolai Kolyadko in a series of articles on the "Big Torpedo Scandal" was given a report by the submarine commander, Captain 3rd Rank Lawrence "Dan" Daspit:
          10.48 Start of the 11th torpedo. Hit. No visible effect.
          This torpedo hit the stern of the port side, produced
          a splash at the side, turned to the right and then jumped out of the water
          thirty meters from the stern of the tanker.
          It’s hard to believe that I saw it myself.

          Moreover, this scandal was in three actions: incorrect operation of the magnetic fuse, incorrect operation of the depth setting device, failure of the contact fuse.
          in the case of an “ideal” angle of 90 °, the probability of misfiring the fuse reached 70%. At a meeting angle of 45 °, the number of misfires was halved, and at 30 ° or less the fuse worked flawlessly.

          And each time, specialists from the Bureau of Armaments and the Torpedo Station at first rejected any arguments from the fleets from the doorway, refusing to believe even in the results of numerous tests carried out on the fleets - "everything is fine with us, you simply write off your misses on goals for mythical failures". And only the intervention of the multi-star admirals (the first time the life-giving kick was given by Nimitz himself) made them tear off their butts and check - so that they could be surprised later."well it really doesn't work".
          1. +1
            1 August 2019 08: 04
            Agree that these were the problems of the Americans themselves! For this reason the Japanese sailors believed in their "luck"! Sometimes ships went without protection at all!
      3. 0
        1 August 2019 14: 18
        Apparently, the Japanese simply did not know what PLO is,


        there were no funds
    2. 0
      1 August 2019 11: 01
      You are making a logical mistake. I'm talking about a percentage of the total, and not about absolute quantities. And not about 1942 year, but about 40-41, and that was a completely different matter if you forgot.

      The Americans stuffed so many ships because they used submarines against warships. The Germans used them when they were lucky and they fell for sight, but they did not consider the submarines consciously as a means to combat the surface fleet. Prien is a unique case; they did not introduce such actions into the system.
  11. +1
    30 July 2019 20: 07
    If we write about raiders, then why not talk about auxiliary cruisers? For example, the German Atlantis sank the ships of the Allies with a displacement of 146 tons. And it was worth a penny.

    In general, what the author writes about is relevant for the WWII. Now surface ships cannot hide and leave. As one American admiral recently said: "With modern means of detection, the submarines are now like surface ships." Even pl is hard to hide, and the raiders can only be disguised as merchant ships, like Atlantis.
    1. +1
      31 July 2019 04: 26
      The example of Atlantis is not an indicator. It is possible to remember the story with "Cormoran", but this is again an isolated case like the drowning of the aforementioned "Glories".
      1. +2
        31 July 2019 10: 35
        Quote: Sea Cat
        The example of Atlantis is not an indicator. It is possible to remember the story with "Cormoran", but this is again an isolated case like the drowning of the aforementioned "Glories".

        You can also recall the fight between "Stir" and "Stephen Hopkins" - and deduce from it the theory that the RSCR are ineffective, since they are drowned by an ordinary armed "merchant". smile
    2. +1
      31 July 2019 13: 28
      This is if the surveillance equipment is in order. The first blow (most likely secretive) to the "eyes", "ears" and "brains" will lead to a sharp loss of knowledge of the situation. Moreover, in the absence of proper naval air reconnaissance forces, the situation will worsen in comparison with the Second World War.
  12. +2
    31 July 2019 05: 42
    Weighted and reasoned article, although for a long time uncovered circumstances. But briefly, capaciously and connected. But the last paragraph must be removed. The experience of past naval wars does not teach us anything in our time. Like Roeder, the experience of PMV in the dominance of aviation. The concept and doctrine of the use of the Russian fleet is and is being implemented. A decent fleet of the near zone (in terms of quantity and quality) of 4 components). A strategic underwater arm in the form of a dozen missile carriers and with them two or three dozen generalists-hunters. Here are the two components from which the tasks and technical conditions will flow.
  13. 0
    31 July 2019 05: 51
    Will there be a continuation about auxiliary cruisers equipped from civilian ships? My "favorite" - "Comet", I read the article "Basis Nord" in VIZH, about 30 years ago, and I remember it.
    1. 0
      1 August 2019 11: 04
      Please wink
      https://topwar.ru/156181-vozvraschenie-nadvodnyh-rejderov-vozmozhno-li-ono.html
  14. Eug
    0
    31 July 2019 07: 41
    Gladiator with a net and a trident against a gladiator with a sword ...
  15. +3
    31 July 2019 07: 50
    The article begins by asserting the thesis that a "raid" or "raid" does not allow a war at sea to be won, and that victory at sea must be consolidated by the continuous pressure of "sea power". That is, only with the support of a capital ocean fleet, raiding and raiding operations begin to bring strategic benefits. There is even a quote that mentions the need to have a powerful outpost of sea power: "a colony or strong fleet". Without this, raids do not make sense. However, at the end of the article, the exact opposite is stated:
    the economy will not allow us to build a fleet comparable to the American
    и
    And in this sense, the idea of ​​raids aimed at weakening enemy fleets deserves careful study.
    That is, in order to achieve strategic superiority at sea, it is proposed to return to the idea of ​​one-off raids, rather than continuous pressure based on its powerful fleet. Let these raids be aimed at enemy warships. Is the result "a little predictable"?

    And more.
    Nuclear submarines? They can chase the high-speed surface target only at the cost of complete loss of stealth. We can easily face the fact that very little has changed since the Second World War, and that it is still incredibly difficult to “catch” a surface ship in the ocean, even when you almost know where it is.
    From this statement it can be assumed that nuclear submarines catch in the sea is easier than a surface ship. Frankly speaking, it is strange. Let a submarine at high speed make a lot of noise, but it is no more noisy than a surface ship at the same speeds, only the ship also has a surface EPR. So if we proceed from the fact that it is incredibly difficult to catch a surface ship in the ocean these days, it is more difficult to catch the submarine at times.
    1. 0
      1 August 2019 11: 12
      That is, in order to achieve strategic superiority at sea, it is proposed to return to the idea of ​​one-off raids, rather than continuous pressure based on its powerful fleet. Let these raids be aimed at enemy warships. Is the result "a little predictable"?


      Maybe we’ll predict, only in the 1940-41 years the sinking of one single battleship in a convoy (for example, a submarine hovering over it) then allowed the surface crews to kill the entire escort in a couple of hours, leaving dozens of ships without cover and feeding them to other submarines or to drown them on their own and follow to the next convoy.

      It is the support of strong capital ships that could give the Germans any chance before America entered the war. But to do this, first it was necessary to knock out their support from the Britons - the fleet - using every opportunity. And the Germans drowned the transport ... well, then the Americans with the "liberty" showed them what was happening with the transports.

      So if we proceed from the fact that these days it’s incredibly difficult to catch a surface ship in the ocean, it’s more difficult to catch a nuclear submarine at times.


      There are precedents for detecting submarines by listening to a deep-sea underwater sound channel from a distance of 6400 + km. Namely, the hydrophones were in the Bahamas, the PLA in the Faroe Islands.

      The error of such detection is a few tens of miles. A modern anti-submarine aircraft will reduce this error to zero in an hour.

      The stealth of boats has dropped very dramatically in our time. And the ship needs to go beyond the ZGRLS detection zones and in the future it will only have to hide from the satellites (the submarine, too, by the way, the emerging wake is visible from them, the "Kelvin wedge" too). But at least the ship can shoot them down.
  16. +1
    31 July 2019 08: 02
    Quote: Sea Cat
    The example of Atlantis is not an indicator. It is possible to remember the story with "Cormoran", but this is again an isolated case like the drowning of the aforementioned "Glories".


    How is this not an indicator? The auxiliary German cruisers sank 1 tons in three years. 152 ships. The same Cormoran sank the cruiser Sydney. The auxiliary cruiser was exchanged for a light one. By the way, the British were actively using auxiliary cruisers themselves. German submarines first surfaced before drowning transports "for clarification", and such cruisers disguised as merchant ships destroyed them. So it was more difficult for them with the German raiders, one of them managed to sink one and seriously damage two more British cruisers.
  17. +5
    31 July 2019 08: 29
    We must pay tribute to the author - even if he pulls an owl on the globe, as in this case, he does it beautifully.
    The most interesting thing is that the author at the very beginning of the article cited quotes from Mahan's classic work, which immediately refute the author’s article, but immediately forgot about it and, with his inherent ability and talent, began to adjust extensive factual material to his own idea.
    The idea of ​​the author is that instead of cruising against British merchant shipping, the Kriegsmarine had to raid against Royal Navy.
    We return to the beginning of the article.
    Such a war, however, cannot be fought on its own; it must be supported; without support in itself, it cannot extend to a theater remote from its base. Such a base should be either domestic ports, or some solid outpost of national power on the shore or at sea - a remote colony or a strong fleet. In the absence of such support, the cruiser can only venture on hasty flights at a short distance from its port, and its strikes, although painful for the enemy, cannot then be fatal.

    What resources in terms of the above did the Germans possess for organizing the raids conceived by the author. After all, ships need bases where they undergo repairs, replenish ammunition, fuel supplies, provisions, and eliminate damage sustained in battle, where crew rest is ensured. And here you can’t do without a deserted island like filibusters.
    So what bases could the Germans expect to organize their raids and ensure the combat stability of the raiders? Wilhelmshaven, ports of the Atlantic coast of France, ports of Norway.
    And how many of these ports could provide a full-fledged basing of a raider such as a battleship, battle cruiser. cruiser? A few units. Therefore, the idea dies without being born. The British would not have to chase raiders. Simply lock the base. And that’s all.
    In fact, if the Germans acted rationally, until a certain point they would have “brought” a battleship from each campaign.
    And the German ships, "bringing" by the battleship, themselves, according to the author, would not have received any combat damage? Would the British just surrender?
    At the outbreak of World War II, the Kriegsmarine had two Scharnhorst-class battleships, three Deutschland-class "pocket battleships", two Admiral Hipper-class heavy cruisers and six light cruisers.
    The British in the Metropolitan Fleet alone had five battleships (Royal Sovereign, Ramillies, Royal Oak, Nelson and Rodney), three battlecruisers (Hood, Renown and Repulse), two aircraft carriers (Furious and Ark Royal), 7 cruisers.
    What would remain of the two German battleships after they "transported" at least these forces?
    In a word - naval fantasy. But interesting.
    1. +1
      1 August 2019 00: 33
      An excellent definition is naval fantasy! But conclusions, conclusions and recommendations !!! God forbid it flies or what magpie on the tail will bring to the admiral's head or to the general’s from MO!
      1. 0
        1 August 2019 00: 43
        God forbid it flies or what a magpie on its tail will bring to the admiral's head or to the general’s from MO!
        Yes, there will be nothing.
        Now we have about a ten-year cycle of discussion on the design and construction of an aircraft carrier.
        We will have the same cycle of discussion on the design and construction of an all-destructive in the world having no raider analogs.
        It is possible that these projects will even be combined.
        1. +1
          1 August 2019 00: 50
          I think that with an aircraft carrier this is a kind of smoke screen, for the sake of public fun. To date, this is not relevant in the sense of the geopolitical challenges facing the Russian Federation, the balance of power, and most importantly, the state of the economy and industry. The hypothetical AHU has no goals other than military-political demonstrations of the Russian flag. All real potential tasks are solved by other types of troops and other weapons. And the most important thing is maintaining strategic parity by the presence of an asymmetric response with the latest weapons. This excludes the possibility of an attack on the Russian Federation. Aggression is completely excluded from the military doctrine of the Russian Federation. The choice of weapons is always determined by politics, never the other way around.
          1. 0
            1 August 2019 01: 09
            If you look at the times of the USSR, then something similar to the concept outlined by the author in the form of the TARK "Orlan" already existed. Isn't it a raider? Today, as far as we know, they are being disposed of. So while no one is going to raid.
            1. +1
              1 August 2019 01: 18
              "Eagles" have not yet been disposed of, the question is about modernization, only that means, means! "Peter the Great" in the ranks of the Northern Fleet. "Admiral Nakhimov" is still under repair and modernization. "Lazarev" and "Ushakov" are still on conservation. It is not easy to use them as raiders without escort and support ships, to put it mildly, and every exit of this kind of connection to the World Ocean is in itself a significant, tracked and controlled phenomenon. Yes, and issues of basing and recruiting ... I think that for a very, very long time, the AUG and the KUG of the Russian Navy will be used to demonstrate the flag and solve political problems, a kind of forceful reinforcement of peaceful political efforts. Well, thank God. And for the dreamers and romantics of naval battles, there is a vast field for the gaming industry.
    2. -1
      1 August 2019 11: 14
      And how many of these ports could provide a full-fledged basing of a raider such as a battleship, battle cruiser. cruiser? A few units. Therefore, the idea dies without being born. The British would not have to chase raiders. Simply lock the base. And that’s all.


      Why didn't they block them? In the real world? After all, the Germans actually averted themselves from the attacks of surface ships on the Britons after the "Bismarck", something was done only in the north. But when Tirpitz or Scharnhorst were given the order to go to sea, it was carried out.
      1. +1
        1 August 2019 11: 29
        Strange, the answer is clearly not on your level. Do you really not have information on how "effectively" the Tirpitz and Scharnhorst "went out" to the sea on one side, and what forces of the British fleet were shackled by their seating in Norwegian ports? I do not believe. As well as the fact that you are not able to predict how the "exits" of these ships would end if they did attack the opposing British forces.
        1. 0
          2 August 2019 16: 42
          The question is that the blockade in the ports is already after America entered the war, when the British did not have to put a battleship into every ocean convoy. They exhaled greatly when the states entered the war.

          And before that, they were at the gap between the European theater of operations (North Sea, Norway, the Canal, the Danish Strait), the Atlantic and the Mediterranean, where the Italians fettered them.

          If the Germans continued to raid the British surface boats step by step, the escalation sequence would be completely different - the Germans would continuously increase the number of forces in the raid, first at the expense of NK, then at the expense of submarines and Condors (they would not be able to build NK after a certain moment). The Britons would increase the number of forces on duty in the waters adjacent to Germany and the number of aerial reconnaissance. In those years, there were no ZGRLS, no satellites))) The only thing to elude was aerial reconnaissance. Berlin and Bismarck's multiple losses by the British show that this was real.
          With the worked-out interaction of submarines, NKs and aircraft, any attempt by the Britons to drive German raiders back to bases would end in a counter battle, which the German NKs would join last, after the British ships would have faced both submarine attacks and air strikes.

          I understand that the Germans would have suffered losses and sooner or later they would have run out of ships - there is no riem against scrap.

          But - a moment that clearly follows from Mahan - this is all that would help other submarines to work on communications in the Atlantic. As well as auxiliary cruisers, which would have been much easier.

          Well, let me remind you once again - we are talking about the period before entering the US war, to the Liberators with radar, to 120 + escort aircraft carriers, etc.
  18. +1
    31 July 2019 09: 36
    IMHO raiders in our time already ride. The atmosphere and near-earth space are too saturated with all sorts of big-eyed things.
    1. +2
      1 August 2019 00: 29
      And besides, very nicely, the author bypassed the issue of withdrawing the KUG in a "combat railer campaign". Where from? Cross the Straits? so Turkey, on the eve of a turmoil, is unlikely to allow, and if it does, it will not pass through Suez or Gibraltar. Baltic Sea? Not even funny. The Northern Fleet bypassing Norway - NATO countries - is more than a dubious undertaking. In addition, there will be enough tasks to protect their communications, their convoys in the NSR. TF has some chances, but very illusory. I think the author needs to be not an enthusiastic idealist, waiting for the appearance of a supermonster as a raider and giving advice to admirals who descended to sinful land as a researcher of naval history, if you really want to.
  19. +4
    31 July 2019 09: 50
    The battle account at the end of 1941, nevertheless, in favor of the Germans - they sank an aircraft carrier, a battle cruiser, two destroyers and a minesweeper in their surface raids. You can also add the light cruiser Sydney sunk by the auxiliary cruiser (essentially a merchant ship with weapons).
    To this list you can also add add. cruiser Jervis Bay, sunk by Scheer 5.11.40, apt. cruiser "Rawalpindi", sunk by "Sharghorst" and "Gneisenau" 23.11.39, aux. cruiser "Voltair", sunk by aux. by the cruiser "Thor" on 4.04.41 and the destroyer "Gloworm" sunk by "Heeper" on 8.04.40. Therefore, in the end we get an aircraft carrier, battleship (battle cruiser), light cruiser, 3 aux. cruisers, 3 destroyers and a minesweeper.
    1. 0
      1 August 2019 11: 15
      I specifically limited myself only to trips for convoys, in which warships sank instead of convoys. So much more could be added.
  20. 0
    31 July 2019 10: 24
    What should be a raider ship? Pretty powerful. It should have many missiles, both for strikes along the coast (at airfields to neutralize aircraft), and for strikes on ships and submarines.

    On the contrary, if it is necessary to efficiently sink large battle ships of the enemy, the raider must beat a small (not more than 5 thousand tons) and as cheap as possible. It is best to convert civilian vessels. He must carry missiles and torpedoes that are enough to sink one aircraft carrier or two destroyers. Such raiders can be used in peacetime as civilian ships and can be hacked by hundreds. They must be protected as best as possible from enemy guided weapons, including armor from small-caliber artillery and fragments.
    1. +1
      31 July 2019 11: 12
      you're talking about a trap ship, not a raider.
      Now it’s not a ride - you can quickly catch such vessels with the help of modern technology.
      and such a vessel with a 99% probability will be able to attack only 1 time, i.e. suicide bomber.
      1. +2
        1 August 2019 06: 02
        Most likely, any raider, regardless of size, will now be a suicide bomber. But exchanging a small ship for a serious combat unit, like Cormoran in Sydney will be justified, if there are a lot of them, then the effect will be significant. But what will be the effect of the change of the superrader, as the author presents it, on ... (for now it is not even clear what he will manage to achieve), this is a question.
        And yes, one more question is the crews of the raiders, the constant understanding that life until the first shot and that's it ... "they can be stuck in hundreds" this means thousands of real people of their families ...
  21. +3
    31 July 2019 10: 32
    Quote: Alexey RA
    To do this, you need nothing at all — so that the Allied PLO of naval formations and approaches to bases would be the same as the Japanese.

    And Japanese submarines, too, sank a lot of American warships despite their most advanced PLO then, including the cruiser Indianapolis in July 1945 at the very end.
  22. 0
    31 July 2019 11: 01
    Langsdorf could very well, while firing, escape at least from light cruisers.

    Which are superior in speed? How? Ajax and Achilles chased the raider, periodically entering into an art duel.
    Having received 57 hits and having holes in the immediate vicinity of the waterline, Langsdorf needed more than 3 days in the conditions of the port of Montevideo to fix the combat damage.

    But what if Langsdorf decided to take the lead?

    Ajax and Achilles would have chased the enemy, and Count Spee could not have developed full speed due to damage to the hull


    He would have come together in battle with three British cruisers (Ajax Achilles and Cumberland would soon have joined them) without being able to break away.

    The breakthrough from Montevideo was also problematic - the battle would have started in the channel of the mouth of La Plata in the most disadvantageous situation for the raider - ammunition of the order of 25-30%, the combat distance is unprofitable, maneuvering is difficult, the risk of a torpedo attack.

    We read the bay location:
    La Plata Bay cuts deep into the mainland between Cape Este (34 ° 58 'S, 54 ° 57 / W) and Cape San Antonio, 118 miles SW.

    The depths in La Plata Bay are shallow. To W ot the port of Montevideo, the bay abounds with shallows and banks with depths less than 5 m (Spee draft 7,3 m, Ajax 5,8-6 m).

    In the outer part there are two deep-sea fairways separated by the banks of Banco Ingles, Rowan and Arkimedes. The interior of the bay is filled with extensive shallows of Ortiz and Playa Onda, which are dangerous for swimming.

    In the middle of the interior of La Plata Bay lies the Main Fairway, which leads to the ports of La Plata and Buenos Aires and further to the mouths of the Uruguay and Parana rivers. The fairway is deepened, accessible for large vessels and enclosed by floating means of navigation equipment.

    To the W from the port of Montevideo, along the northern shore of the bay, passes the Canal Norte, accessible only to small vessels; depths on the channel fairway of 3,7-5,2 m.


    That is, the most disadvantageous situation is in combat maneuvering.
    But what happened is what happened.
    1. +3
      31 July 2019 13: 37
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      He would have come together in battle with three British cruisers (Ajax Achilles and Cumberland would soon have joined them) without being able to break away.

      Moreover, “Cumberland” was not like the undersized “Exeter”. smile
      Firstly, he had four BS BSs, not three. And secondly, before the war he managed to undergo modernization, including the installation of an armored belt up to 114 mm thick.
      1. 0
        1 August 2019 00: 56
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Moreover, “Cumberland” was not like the undersized “Exeter”.

        And there is. Both stronger and the captain will be more careful. Exeter then, in general, substituted himself. In addition, the height of summer, excellent weather and all English cruisers have seaplanes on board. Where will he hide :)
    2. +1
      1 August 2019 11: 25
      Well, Langsdorf was not afraid of Cumberland, after all, this time.
      Secondly, before Buenos Aires, he had 5 hours of progress. The British have an advantage in speed and torpedoes, but they didn’t try to use these torpedoes before.
      Langsdorf could try to break through bluntly.
      He could notify the port authorities of his departure to the sea in one time and immediately rush to the exit immediately at night without warning about anything, for example, a day earlier, immediately after dark, and turn to Buenos Aires, he could make a breakthrough, run into Britons, turn back to the port, from there try to move along the edge of the guide to Argentina, could try to hide behind a merchant ship ...

      He could try to leave even before Uruguay - he had superiority in range, and, apparently, considerable, the Britons looked for him and burned fuel for this search, and then, having discovered, they did not reduce fuel consumption from a maximum for even a minute, and this was initially lower about a third of the range.

      Langsdorf did not try to do anything. He just stupidly surrendered to the circumstances.

      He could well have died in battle, and he had a chance to drag someone to the bottom, he could try to leave even with all your counter-arguments, his chances could not be considered null, they were just small, but not null.

      We must fight to the end, always.

      The example of "Akasta" from the same article is quite indicative - the ship had not only chances, but a 100% opportunity to escape, but what did the commander do in the end?

      Something like that, Alex.
  23. +2
    31 July 2019 11: 11
    the author of the article is right in general that the Germans did not sufficiently use their potential attackers.
    they could do the same thing as during the WWI and that would be effective.
    however, the author forgot that there were not many opportunities to become more impudent, because strike aircraft appeared in the sea, as a factor that threatened greatly.
    but the combination of reconnaissance condors, he-111 + ju-88 with torpedoes and ju-88 plus
    fleet raider operations relying on wolf pack ambushes - this could have an effect
    1. 0
      1 August 2019 00: 22
      As a historical review, the article is acceptable if we ignore belated criticism of the German and English admirals. Then, based on their capabilities and realities, they probably knew better how to plan operations. But the conclusions and instructions of the Russian admirals nullify the positive effect.
    2. 0
      1 August 2019 11: 29
      but the combination of reconnaissance condors, he-111 + ju-88 with torpedoes and ju-88 plus
      fleet raider operations relying on wolf pack ambushes - this could have an effect


      And this was the real direction of the development of the situation.
      We think.
      After Berlin, the Britons intensified their aerial reconnaissance.
      Lutens' response was to be the strengthening of the raider group, he proposed it.
      Suppose he would succeed and the raiders would come back, even if only with the "Hood".
      The British response would be the removal of heavy ships from guarding the convoys, the buildup of aviation forces.
      The Germans now, before the next raid, also need to understand the rates, if wisely.
      And this is where their long-range aerial reconnaissance and the presence of submarines could affect.
      1. 0
        1 August 2019 11: 46
        No, England had enough resources on both fronts, because completely different ships were used.
        but England would not have had enough people and internal resources at the same time for 5 goals - maneuvers of the navy in the Atlantic, convoys, increasing production, building up aviation and the army.
        They even barely enough for 3 goals until the end of 43 years. Therefore, Germany from 40 to 42 could be able to achieve a decisive turning point, seriously involving the combined impact.
        But it so happened that the Germans either flew, then used the pl, or the raiders were a bit allowed - this is not a full-fledged war and this is a repetition of the scenario of defeat at sea during the WWII.
        1. 0
          2 August 2019 16: 45
          No, England had enough resources on both fronts, because completely different ships were used.


          Then why was the deal "Destroyers-bases" carried out, if there were enough forces?

          Well, it makes sense to discuss actions before the US enters the war, then it would be too late to twitch.
          1. 0
            2 August 2019 16: 56
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            then it would be too late to twitch.

            The US entered the war immediately, organizing large-scale supply
            so the fact of their entry has changed little. Unless the B-17 would fly over Berlin with Kololev's markings
            1. 0
              5 August 2019 13: 22
              It was not easy there. Large-scale supply was legally the sale of surplus US forces. Of course, deliveries of new equipment were also covered by this, but these deliveries could not be compared with Lend-Lease.

              Just to compare the scale - in 1940 the USA handed over to the 50 Britons the dead World War 1 destroyers in exchange for bases.

              In 1944, they had the largest base patrol aircraft in the world operating on transatlantic routes, for a hundred escort carriers alone, etc.

              About the same difference was in everything. Before Pearl Harbor, isolationism was quite strong in the United States, and a third of Americans should not be forgotten about the German roots. If Hitler had not declared war on the United States in 1941, Roosevelt would have needed a very serious provocation to openly enter the war with Germany.

              And under these conditions, every sunk warship of the Britons would work for Germany.
  24. +3
    31 July 2019 11: 30
    Quote: yehat
    you're talking about a trap ship, not a raider.
    Now it’s not a ride - you can quickly catch such vessels with the help of modern technology.
    and such a vessel with a 99% probability will be able to attack only 1 time, i.e. suicide bomber.


    He writes about the classic raider. A trap vessel is an auxiliary cruiser disguised as a vehicle that floats without a convoy alone and depicts easy prey to attract sub or raiders.
    And according to modern realities, it’s far from a fact. The German raiders did not attack the convoys, but went into the quiet and Indian oceans, into the southern Atlantic. Attacked in a chamber setting. Now you can do the same thing - put jammers on the raider, and everything is decided - the victim will not make a noise. And you won’t get enough satellites in any case to track every trough.
  25. +2
    31 July 2019 13: 08
    Quote: Demagogue
    And you won’t get enough satellites in any case to track every trough.

    It's not about satellites.
    each ordinary vessel gives a signal with coordinates in real time.
    Given the completeness of this information, it’s enough to simply find the area where the raider
    and the episodes of his work and the fact that he turned off the transmission of coordinates.
    such operations have already been carried out in the Atlantic - someone was successfully caught.
    2-3 years ago there was a case when pirates captured a ship and turned off the coordinate transfer equipment.
    He was found in less than a week.
    1. 0
      31 July 2019 14: 14
      In war, all this does not work, and aircraft detection means are not omnipotent.
      1. +1
        31 July 2019 14: 19
        tracked without aircraft and satellites, simply analyzing the signals of ships and their messages in the office.
        all equipment - internet
  26. +1
    31 July 2019 13: 38
    Respect to the author!
    The theme of the German fleet versus the British in 1939 - 1941. (Before the entry into the US war) is extremely interesting. And the essence of the problem is precisely covered: domination at sea is tantamount to destroying the enemy fleet (or blocking it in the bases).
    In modern conditions, it seems somewhat utopian to develop raiding at the expense of displacement vessels, but raiders like a robot drone, which has the artificial intelligence to carry out a planned operation, can really significantly affect the course of the war at sea.
  27. +2
    31 July 2019 13: 52
    We need a new paradigm, and it is highly desirable that it not be reduced to nuclear suicide as the only scenario, although no one is going to discount it.
    Alexander, only the use of nuclear weapons, in our particular case, is the paradigm that gives Russia a chance to wage war at sea, if we are talking about a war with the United States and its allies (NATO, Japan).

    Yes, it is interesting to read about the past, but if the Germans had chances to defeat Britain, it should have been done at Dunkirk, and not stopped Guderian's tanks for three days, as Hitler did by allowing the British to evacuate their expeditionary force. The Germans did not have the task of defeating their masters, the Nazis came to power with the money of the Anglo-Saxons, with the permission of the Anglo-Saxons, they violated the restrictions of Versailles and swallowed Austria and Czechoslovakia. Further, the "strange war", where Hitler was essentially given the entire potential of Europe, for the main task, the war with the USSR, the destruction of the independent system of socialism. A huge amount of money was made during the war, the whole of Europe as a result was in debt to the United States, the British crown did not lose here either, having its secret power in the world. As for the tactics of surface raiders, it was doomed already in the First World War, to the sinking of both a single "Emden" and a detachment of cruisers under the command of Spee.

    During World War II, the valiant raids of large surface ships became even more problematic. So, the exit of "Bismarck" and "Prince Eugen", the Swedes handed over to the British in the Baltic, then the ships were already on the radar of the British light cruiser, only the British had problems with radio communications, gave the Germans more time, but still did not rule out interception by the main forces. If "Bismarck" had a chance to raid the Atlantic, it is not a fact that after the adventurous breakthrough from Brest through the "English Channel" (Operation "Cerberus") fate was more favorable to him. Ultimately, the Tirpitz of the same type did not show itself in any way, only became famous for intercepting PQ-17, but it was not he who destroyed the convoy, but aircraft and submarines. Raiding "Scharnhorst" was interrupted by a meeting with a British battleship. For Italy, the battle at Cape Matapan is also indicative.

    You, Alexander, I think the main conclusion is not correct, the problem is that Italy and Germany did not appreciate then the new in the war at sea - aircraft carriers, the role of aviation. Still aggravated by the lag in radar. No surface raiders solved the main problem anymore. Therefore, speaking of modernity, we must talk about the need for a full-fledged fleet, capable of solving all tasks at sea, and not "raiders". Also, these tasks must be solved before the start of the war, and they must be solved in such a way as to prevent war, to stop problems in a timely manner, by pressure, by demonstration, by solving local and global problems. Here we are no longer talking about quantity and "wall to wall", but the quality of a balanced fleet, for any task at sea. In a big war, there will be only one thing left, missile launches on the cities and bases of the enemy, where nuclear missile launchers with diesel-electric submarines (preferably with VNEU) and nuclear multipurpose boats, together with ICBMs from nuclear submarine cruisers, will be required. "Raiders" will have nothing to do, therefore, and it is necessary to develop your fleet as a full-fledged one, with all types of ships, it will be easier to prevent a major war than to win it afterwards, if at all someone "wins" in it.
    1. 0
      1 August 2019 00: 16
      Just great! Especially the conclusion at the end! Honestly, the article should not be taken seriously.
      1. +1
        1 August 2019 11: 48
        It is not worth taking you seriously, a false officer laughing
        And supposedly a nobleman.
        Or a nobleman, I don’t know how it is more correct in relation to you.

        And yes, I know what sheets you scribble to the administration, how tearfully you complain that - about horror - all these people have their own opinions! How dare they! No one should have any opinion on any issue, this is some unheard of insolence! Yes, they also sharply respond when they try to shut their mouths, such villains!
        laughing

        Continue to guard my articles and spam in comments, it doesn’t bother me, as a rule I don’t even read what you write - in principle.

        Do not think that your voice can mean something here. For those who do not know your habits, you arouse pity from the force, the others have a strong disgust, but your sheets, which you scribble here, no one really reads, I'm not the only one.

        And now you can send a new complaint to the administration, as you usually do. laughing
        1. +1
          2 August 2019 03: 36
          I will definitely put it up, but you don't read about it, so it can be seen from the intensity of feelings. It's just that you, Admiral Timokhin, as an ICE specialist, are very unpleasant about the opinion of professionals. Hence the envy. By the way, they read it and quite agree. And you, "peasant son" Your quote, without naval education and service experience, continue to deal with your favorite deadline - "body". By the way, I am also just expressing my opinion, considering you, my dear Alexander, a person incompetent in everything that goes beyond your listed hobbies, however, on military historical topics you create quite interesting, entertaining compilations for the public.
          1. 0
            2 August 2019 04: 01
            By the way, I wrote about the article, not about the author. And you, my dear, immediately hysterical. Do you consider yourself infallible? Second after the Lord God?
    2. +1
      1 August 2019 11: 41
      Alexander, only the use of nuclear weapons, in our particular case, is the paradigm that gives Russia a chance to wage war at sea, if we are talking about a war with the United States and its allies (NATO, Japan).


      Let's just say - if the goal is precisely the destruction of the US Navy and NATO, then yes.
      True, they can also become nuclear weapons, if that.

      But in fact there are options and smarter. For example, the US now dominates the ocean.

      The question is: is their hypothetical rollback to a solid second place after China (and to a "strong second", not to a lag of a couple of ships), an acceptable price for the defeat of the Russian Federation at sea? For them? And if they see this very prospect, will it hold them back? Taking into account the fact that in such a war the Russian Federation will lose ONLY its fleet, and not all? Put yourself in their place, please.

      This is the first moment.

      The second is that now the U.S. Navy is scattered in small (3-4 ships) battle groups across the planet. And you can always collect KUG, which will be stronger than any ARG. And will be able to drown her.

      And then what will the exceptional nation do? To bring ARG, SAG, CVBG into fists in case of a sudden strike by Russians? Well, let it be reduced, this will mean the shutdown of their Navy from world politics and the transition to defense.

      Do not reduce and leave everything as it is? But then in case of war, up to a third of their Navy will be broken up in parts.

      In general, everything is somewhat different than you think.
      People who remember the fright of the 1973 amers of the year are still alive and in good health, for your information.

      In a big war, there will be only one thing left: missile launches in the cities and bases of the enemy, where nuclear missiles are also required with diesel-electric submarines (preferably with VNEU) and atomic multipurpose boats, together with ICBMs from submarine nuclear cruisers.


      Why is there such a conviction that with the use of strategic nuclear weapons everything will end? I still remember the times when it was believed that this would only begin. Exercises on civil defense, all sorts, etc.

      In addition, you make a logical mistake by opposing the two parts of the whole to each other. Try to find her in your comment, she is there laughing
      1. +1
        1 August 2019 14: 26
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Why is there such a conviction that with the use of strategic nuclear weapons everything will end?
        Alexander, I don’t have such a conviction in the context. Simply, if it comes to exchanging nuclear strikes, it’s very difficult to imagine a further war at sea as a battle like Midway Atoll (1942), or a battle at the mouth of La Plata (1939). I emphasized that the main task of our surface fleet is the prevention of war, which is achieved by stopping problems and upholding national interests (see above). In addition, all the strike groups that we can create, in the inevitability of a large-scale large-scale war, will be important only for the pre-launch period, for the deployment of both its surface forces before the strike and for the cover of their strike submarines, their deployment. A large-scale war is unlikely to be non-nuclear, in any case, Russia has little chance of defeating, repelling massive aggression by conventional means, all the more yielding to forces at sea.

        I do not oppose the two parts of one whole, any large-scale conflict at sea will develop into a universal, global conflict, using nuclear weapons. There can be no single war at sea, without the involvement of all other armed forces. In your interpretation, a war at sea can somehow exist separately, by itself, with raiders and epic battles, without nuclear war. If so, then the two parts of the whole are rather opposed in you.
        Naturally, this is just my personal opinion, thank you for paying attention to him.
        1. 0
          2 August 2019 16: 52
          Simply, if it comes to exchanging nuclear strikes, it’s very difficult to imagine a further war at sea as a battle like Midway Atoll (1942), or a battle at the mouth of La Plata (1939).



          And what fundamentally changes, apart from the power of ammunition? You also need to track down the enemy, repel the attack of his missiles before they explode, launch their own. Only keep your eyes safe, and so that the lights of the signalmen always work, there will be no radio communication.

          Ships very well withstand the damaging factors of nuclear weapons - if provided for by their design, of course. And the decontamination systems on any ships are such that you would be surprised.

          I emphasized that the main task of our surface fleet is the prevention of war, which is achieved by stopping problems and upholding national interests (see above).


          Prevention of war is achieved by demonstrating strength and willingness to use it, and nothing more. So, the strike group hanging on the tail of the AUG is just such a demonstration - remember the Indian Ocean, 1971 year. Stay up to date with this story?

          And now we add to it ships specially built for such tasks, which can easily escape from the pursuit, and take the price tag for their sinking so that they will scare teenagers for the next two hundred years.
  28. +2
    31 July 2019 14: 48
    For a long time (about 25 years ago) we wondered what a raider of Germany should be in 1939 - 1941. to fight the British convoys.
    Given the superiority of the enemy in all classes of ships, except for submarines, it was necessary to act on communications with the support of aviation and submarines. At the same time, transports should be destroyed by bombers and torpedo bombers, and warships - by artillery and torpedoes of submarines. In addition, the compound must have air reconnaissance and air defense fighters.
    As a result, the raider compound should include:
    - large aircraft carrier-tanker (conversion of the Bremen-type liner);
    - small aircraft carrier ("Seydlitz" conversion);
    - Two battle cruisers that meet the requirement: stronger and faster production - faster than enemy battleships;
    - "wolf packs" of submarines in the raiding area.
    The most interesting was the battlecruiser: the main caliber of the 4 turret 2x380 mm; anti-aircraft long-range battle - 8 towers 2x128 mm; power plant - two vocational schools with a capacity of 55/60 thousand liters. with. and one remote control of four diesel engines of 13750/15300 hp working on a common gearbox. The course is 32 knots, cruising is 20 knots. Reservation - the frontal of towers and barbets, as well as the main deck and bevels of the lower deck - against 381 mm shells at real battle distances, the rest is high-explosive.
    The basis of tactics was to be the battle of battlecruisers with convoy ships at the position of the "wolf pack". transports were to be destroyed by bombers and torpedo bombers.
  29. 0
    31 July 2019 14: 49
    Quote: yehat
    tracked without aircraft and satellites, simply analyzing the signals of ships and their messages in the office.
    all equipment - internet

    How this is done in our time can be seen on the example of the Iranian capture of tankers. The German raiders carried two aircraft each, did not act blindly. And now instead of airplanes, helicopters and drones. A raider can be located hundreds of kilometers from the attacked ship and stupidly shoot after information from the drone with a cruise missile or send a capture group by helicopter.
  30. 0
    31 July 2019 15: 39
    At first I thought of Andrey from Chelyabinsk, I repent (for me this is a compliment) Alexander, thank you very much. Great article for me.
    1. +1
      1 August 2019 11: 50
      Please glad you liked it.
  31. 0
    31 July 2019 15: 45
    Many thanks to the author!
    Surprisingly sensible article (there are questions, there are claims, of course), all the shortcomings of which are qualitatively less than the benefits of the fact of publication.
    The author is requested to work more. We will read 100%
    1. 0
      1 August 2019 11: 50
      I will try!
  32. +1
    31 July 2019 18: 39
    Quote: Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
    What should be the raider ship? Pretty powerful. It should have a lot of missiles, both for strikes on the coast (on airfields for neutralizing aircraft), and for strikes on ships and submarines. He must have a powerful defense. It must significantly exceed the competitors in the range of the course and maximum speed - just for separation from the superior naval forces of the enemy.

    Yeah. And it is necessary that there were main guns of 9 pieces and so that no less than 410 mm. So there are more torpedoes, more atomic ones. So that the armor was wow, so that the ship could be put in line, like armadillos. A nuclear reactor (but better 3) for speed, 70 kilometers per hour is enough. And more calibers, more ...


    The author did not mean this, but an improved analogue of the American LCS with a speed of up to 50 knots, stealth and good weapons. Actually, the Americans designed such a "ship of the future" based on the same premises that Alexander formulated. But even such a ship has little chance in modern realities.
  33. -1
    1 August 2019 00: 13
    "The Germans missed some opportunities, and secondly, the fact that they missed these opportunities contains a very interesting lesson that goes far beyond the Second World War." - From the first lines the admiral who wrote the article is clear. Thank you for a brief overview of raiding, albeit not complete and not entirely accurate, but interesting for the reading public.
    1. "Our fleet is small, it does not have a clear strategy of application, and it will not withstand a battle with the fleets of potential adversaries." - It is unambiguously said for the entire Russian Fleet. Like, the author said, "To the morgue! So to the morgue" ... you understand, there is no strategy, the command is not to hell, stupid and poorly educated and has never read about the affairs of the Germans in WWII, and if it has read, then it did not understand anything, and if he did understand ... then it is natural that he did not understand correctly. Now the author will explain to the stupid and then ...
    2. "We can easily face the fact that very little has changed since the Second World War, and that it is still incredibly difficult to" catch "a surface ship in the ocean, even when you roughly know where it is." - We can easily collide, but a little higher that the satellites can be shot down by the Russian and the capabilities of the Russian fleet are much less, and the ship composition is not the same, and ,,, and ,,, That is, it starts guessing like that it might be if something happens. Very scientific. One can say an outstanding contribution to naval science. Thank you very much to the author.
    3. "And that the naval strike group may well fight off the aviation, just as it happened more than once in the past. And then the old experience suddenly turns out to be very valuable and useful, provided that it is correctly understood." - That a naval strike group can fight off aviation, this must be understood as an axiom derived earlier by the author. And after the sketch it was deduced by the author, it is beyond discussion and doubt. But the question is, where to get and how to covertly display such a hypothetical AUG or KUG during the prewar period? The war is unlikely to begin with ultimatums and memoranda, with a knightly challenge "I'm going for you", rather like the Second World War and even a thermonuclear war with attacks of hypersonic missiles .... Did the author think about this? And the very fact of an attempt to withdraw the IBM into the World Ocean may at the moment shift the delicate balance of "peace-war" and serve as a trigger for a general Apocalypse without winners.
    4. "In our case, it is not at all necessary to become attached to the Mediterranean or to something else." - And what can you become attached to besides Tartus? It is simply impossible to hang out endlessly in the ocean without a naval base, and the IBM will be spotted and will be under the threat of instant destruction. Without any sea battles, a nuclear missile strike.
    5. "What is the key to success today?" ... Otherwise, it turns out that the boats of the potential adversary of the kartemir are scattered and they need to get to the KUG! And they are so stupid that the KUG came out from somewhere (And where can it come out unnoticed? As?) And they will run and run across the sea before it, and the Kug will ... sink military tankers! Hooray!!! "... they should be followed by a strike on an aircraft carrier, whose fighters were left without kerosene for a couple of days." Admirals of the Russian Federation, listen in silence! Learn to identify military tankers and not touch civilians ... "
    6. "What kind of raider ship should be? Quite powerful. It should have a lot of missiles, both for strikes on the coast (at airfields to neutralize aviation) and for strikes against ships and submarines. It should have powerful air defense. It should should significantly surpass competitors in cruising range and maximum speed - just for the breakaway from the superior naval forces of the enemy. "- This is just wonderful !!! Only this is how it is combined with what was written at the beginning that the Russian Federation does not have the necessary economic and industrial base ???? The author contradicts himself!
    7. "And of course, such actions are worth practicing, both" on the map "and at sea, with a real enemy. Learn from him and clearly show what awaits him if their politicians bring the matter to a real explosion. experiment to always present the adversary with a fait accompli. " - Everything ends with good wishes without kotyory the admirals simply did not know that it was necessary to work out combat training missions at sea and on the map. But the passage with a real enemy touches. What is it like? Throw him an offer, they say, let's work together as an adversary at the root of lime?
    Great stuff! Simply charm, if without conclusions and conclusions, it reads roughly like Bunich's story about the pirates of the Third Reich. Yes, the statement that everyone considers himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the outside, is always alive. And, still, the German admirals would then be as smart as the author of the article today ... The English would have sourly ... Or maybe they would have somehow managed?
    I'm afraid that my comment will not last long. But I hope at least someone reads it.
    1. 0
      1 August 2019 09: 32
      Leonid, they wrote well.
      1. +1
        2 August 2019 03: 42
        Thank you, Dmitry. But do lovers of elegant reading on nautical themes understand this? Honestly, I still cannot understand the meaning of the stuffing by this author (or authors). Where does this feeling of your own superiority and your own infallibility come from? I have already written to him that in any case he has even the most elementary education, but he has the audacity to offend the command of the fleet, the Ministry of Defense and shipbuilders and the government using the words "mafia", incompetence, handlessness ... But "VO" favors him ... Why? One can only guess. The articles themselves are very compilation, which is quite acceptable and even interesting in the case of naval history, but childishly helpless as a serious discussion of modern problems of the fleet.
  34. 0
    1 August 2019 10: 45
    Quote: yehat
    you're talking about a trap ship, not a raider.
    Now it’s not a ride - you can quickly catch such vessels with the help of modern technology.
    and such a vessel with a 99% probability will be able to attack only 1 time, i.e. suicide bomber.

    I meant it. Only one attack and one mine setting no more. Modern anti-ship missiles and guided torpedoes provide a real opportunity to make one sudden attack on a warship.
    Catching a few hundred of these ships will be much more difficult than a dozen large cruisers.
  35. 0
    1 August 2019 10: 58
    Quote: volodimer
    And yes, one more question is the crews of the raiders, the constant understanding that life until the first shot and that's it ... "they can be stuck in hundreds" this means thousands of real people of their families ...

    There will still be a chance for the raider to leave after a successful attack. If space reconnaissance is introduced at the beginning of the conflict, this chance will be quite good. In addition, the missile raider (trap vessel) will have one or more rescue boats for the crew, or a small rescue submarine may hit. So the chances of their crews will not be much worse than those of the attacking ships.
  36. 0
    1 August 2019 17: 55
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Please wink
    https://topwar.ru/156181-vozvraschenie-nadvodnyh-rejderov-vozmozhno-li-ono.html

    I missed the April article about raiders. But she was good. I was surprised to find Chuck Hill's thoughts consonant with his own))

    Only a picture with a 3D model of a modern raider is unrealistic. The raider should be 8 thousand tons displacement, so that to carry drones with helicopters, and PKR, etc.
    And it seems to me that raiders can play a key role. Both industry and troops need fuel and lubricants. Say, the destruction of a certain number of supertankers can cause a real collapse in the enemy. It is no coincidence that Iranians pedal this topic. It will not work to quickly fill up broken tankers. In the scenario of a conflict between Russia and the European Union or Russia with Japan, for example. The European Union will lose supplies from Russia, and in addition, a knocked out tanker fleet will not allow them to be reimbursed. That is, the successful actions of the raiders in the first weeks of the conflict can significantly affect the course of the conflict.
    1. 0
      2 August 2019 16: 57
      A picture is just a picture, it's not about a raider, it's about a container PU. Nothing more suitable was found.

      And the goals for the raiders - here they are - http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2019-03-29/1_1039_agressia.html
  37. 0
    2 August 2019 17: 19
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    A picture is just a picture, it's not about a raider, it's about a container PU. Nothing more suitable was found.

    And the goals for the raiders - here they are - http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2019-03-29/1_1039_agressia.html


    Yes, you never know the pictures on the Internet - it seems like a raider completely. Chinese, 16 knots, 2 cranes, 6000 tons (trochs are too small))).


    And regarding military transports, tankers will be a priority goal. Boys in America nurse new mothers. The Americans, having thinned the Japanese merchant fleet, won the war. But the Germans lost when they could not do the same with the Britons.
    1. 0
      4 August 2019 23: 58
      The Germans lost when they could not defeat the USSR.
  38. 0
    3 August 2019 03: 45
    Very funny outlined. Type - humoresque.
  39. +1
    5 August 2019 00: 02
    The author sets the tasks of the fleet, characteristic of World War 2, instead of highlighting the current tasks that the surface fleet and only the surface fleet can solve. Moreover, the United States has already made such a fleet and has widely covered in the press the tasks for it.
  40. -1
    5 August 2019 04: 51
    Well then, not raiders, but blockade-breakers ...

    In view of our own modest capabilities and the overwhelming naval power of a potential adversary, I propose to create long-range anti-aircraft and coastal defense areas on the territory of the allied states, as well as naval and fighter aviation bases. Given that US policy is most aggressive in regions where the world's major hydrocarbon reserves are concentrated, it is necessary to increase its military presence in the first place there. As an example, consider the following scenario:

    After another attempted coup d'etat in the Republic of Nagonia (a small oil-producing country in West Africa) and the flight of the opposition leader in the United States, as well as the growing threat of a military invasion, legal the government of the republic turned to the Russian Federation with a request for military assistance. In the shortest possible time to stabilize the situation on the territory of Nagonia, a limited military contingent of the Russian Federation was deployed. Among other measures, the S-400 and Bastion complexes were deployed, parts of the aircraft were deployed, and the RTR and EW stations went on combat alert.

    The NATO command, in an attempt to forestall the deployment of our contingent, concentrated 8 KM destroyers and frigates off the coast of Nagonia. At the same time, from the Western Atlantic to the shores of Africa, the US Air Force AUG began to advance. Neglecting the norms of international law and ignoring the warnings of the Russian military command NATO ships inflicted on the territory sovereign state missile strike. As a result of the retaliatory strike of our coastal complexes and naval aviation, several NATO ships were sunk. Unfortunately, not without losses from our side. Arriving in shock from such a decisive rebuff and from the losses suffered, the NATO command decided to withdraw the remaining ships from the coast of Nagonia.

    Meanwhile, a Northern Fleet detachment consisting of 2 22350M frigates hurried to help the Russian contingent blocked in Nagonia. After the detachment was discovered by means of space-based RTR to intercept, he was put forward by the American AUG. A missile strike was launched on AUG! But not from the North! No! From South! The fact is that our 2 multi-purpose SSGNs 885M were imperceptibly concentrated in the equator area and struck from the rear. As a result of the battle, most of the escort ships were sunk, the aircraft carrier itself received serious damage and began to retreat. The raid of carrier-based aircraft on our frigates was successfully repelled by Redut-Poliment complexes. This was followed by a combined strike on NATO Kug off the coast of West Africa. The remnants of the enemy's KUG were defeated and scattered. The NATO ships turned out to be practically defenseless against our heavy Onyx anti-ship missiles.

    Thus, the naval blockade was successfully lifted, legitimate the government of Nagonia is protected from encroachment from outside, and stability in the region is restored. As a result of the strengthening of economic ties between the Russian Federation and the Republic of Poland, they signed mutually beneficial energy contracts.
    1. 0
      6 August 2019 05: 51
      Well then, not the raiders, and blockers...

      Release agents.
  41. 0
    6 August 2019 22: 58
    An interesting article, but the author had to dig deeper into the historical section ...
    Firstly, a raider can break into the ocean even if large forces are waiting for him. The Bismarck waited and it broke through.

    The interpretation of events is very interesting.
    Apart from the accidentally drowned Hood, what are the results of this breakthrough?

    Secondly, it’s worth considering Lutens’s request to give him Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, and ideally Tirpitz, when he can go to sea, and postpone the operation until the Tirpitz camp and the Gneisenau being repaired .

    In KTV Lyutyens for the period March-May 1941 information on such offers is not available.

    That is, even if, together with “Bismarck” and “Prince Eugen” in the Danish Strait, there would still be, for example, “Scharnhorst” (even if he is alone), then anyway, the very same would fight with them “ Hood ”and“ Prince of Wales ”.

    According to the original plan, "Gneisenau" at the beginning of the operation was supposed to operate in the Azores area, and only then join the Bismarck group.
    As for the Scharnhorst, it is too bad with the boilers to think of any long voyage.

    then after the battle in the Danish Strait, Lutiens would do what Bismarck’s commander Captain Ernst Lindemann had asked him to chase after the “Prince of Wales” and finish him off.

    In that situation, Lutyens acted absolutely right, trying to break away from the British: after the failure of the Scapa Flow air reconnaissance, he was right to expect the entire Metropolitan Fleet "around the corner".

    The logic would be very simple - there is no battleship or cruiser in the convoy? Any German auxiliary cruiser can melt the remaining escort junk and then send bundles of vehicles to the bottom.

    What a violent fantasy the author has. :)

    Nothing prevented them from then coming to ship battle groups from ships of different classes - battleships, cruisers and destroyers, who would carry out their specific tasks as part of the group,

    Plan z? No, have not heard.
    The Germans began to implement plans for the creation of raider KUG in the 1938 year. :)
    1. 0
      13 August 2019 12: 15
      The interpretation of events is very interesting.
      Apart from the accidentally drowned Hood, what are the results of this breakthrough?


      If Lutiens had not abused the radio, then Bismarck would have come to Brest with a high degree of probability, and yes, Hood, this is a lot in fact.

      In KTV Lyutyens for the period March-May 1941 information on such offers is not available.


      As I understand it, KTV was carried out from the beginning of the operation, and not during the discussion, planning, etc. That is, from the moment of receipt of the order. In the West, the main point of view is that Lutiens wanted to postpone the start of the operation until the Scharnhorst repair and the end of the Tirpitz test.

      In that situation, Lutyens acted absolutely right, trying to break away from the British: after the failure of the Scapa Flow air reconnaissance, he was right to expect the entire Metropolitan Fleet "around the corner".


      If you keep in mind the goal is to go to the port, where you can repair and go again to stoke the convoys, yes, but that was the wrong goal.

      What a violent fantasy the author has. :)


      Well, besiege the imagination of the author. For example, in the case of the HX106 convoy. The Britons Ramilies, the Germans Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, in a couple of days a bunch of "destroyers in exchange for bases" and other anti-submarine trawlers join the convoy, and the Germans have a submarine.

      How was it supposed to happen there?

      Plan z? No, have not heard.
      The Germans began to implement plans for the creation of raider KUG in the 1938 year. :)


      They started aha. I am inclined to distinguish Wishlist from real actions. In fact, this plan remained on paper almost completely. And after the outbreak of the war, it was necessary to build on the already built and being built ship structure, forming battle groups from it.
      How this was done is known to everyone today.
  42. 0
    13 August 2019 21: 02
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    If Lutiens had not abused the radio, then Bismarck would have come to Brest with a high degree of probability, and yes, Hood, this is a lot in fact.

    Overused?
    De facto, a minus can be put to him in the morning of May 25, but not forgetting that, judging by the available information, Lutyens still assumed that Suffolk was on his "tail" ...

    Quote: timokhin-aa
    As I understand it, KTV was carried out from the beginning of the operation, and not during the discussion, planning, etc.

    There is such a document Kriegstagebuch des Flottenchefs, Admiral Lütjens.
    In the period from March 23 to May 18, there is no reasoning to strengthen the naval composition of the strike group.

    Quote: timokhin-aa
    In the West, the main point of view is that Lutiens wanted to postpone the start of the operation until the Scharnhorst repair and the end of the Tirpitz test.

    There is an opinion, but it is not clear what it is based on, in the primary documents concerning the development of the Reynyubung there are no proposals for changing the ship composition, except for the exclusion, for obvious reasons, of the Gneisenau.

    Quote: timokhin-aa
    If you keep in mind the goal is to go to the port, where you can repair and go again to stoke the convoys, yes, but that was the wrong goal.

    The man who was "on the spot" (captain zur zee Brinkman) believed that the choice of a breakthrough to France was absolutely correct, which he indicated in his report.
    I think he knew better ...

    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Well, besiege the author’s imagination. For example, in the case of the convoy HX106. The Britons Ramilies, the Germans Scharnhorst and Gneisenau,

    I think it's not worth juggling ...;)
    I wrote about THIS
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    The logic would be very simple - there is no battleship or cruiser in the convoy? Any German auxiliary cruiser can melt the remaining escort junk and then send vehicles to the bottom in batches.

    Are the Gemini rapidly evolving into auxiliary cruisers? :)

    Quote: timokhin-aa
    They started aha. I am inclined to distinguish Wishlist from real actions. In fact, this plan remained on paper almost completely.

    OK. Accepted ...

    Quote: timokhin-aa
    And after the outbreak of the war, it was necessary to build on the already built and being built ship structure, forming battle groups from it.

    I would look with great interest at the actions of the KUG somewhere in the Azor region, which would include the Maass or Narviks ...
    How quickly would the Germans end with destroyers and supply vessels?
  43. 0
    21 August 2019 00: 22
    The question that the article raises. What is more important, what is the priority of "transport with cargo" or "escort"? The author of the article argues - first to drown the "escort", then, if possible, "transport". For organized, large forces "raid" ,, strategy ,, the author is suitable. For "work" with "small forces," only "stabs in the back from around the corner" and only on important objects - "transport with cargo" is more important than any "guard". The answer of the "islanders" is obvious - all the forces of the fleet and aviation to blockade and destroy the ports controlled by the Germans ... However, all these arguments - "wave fists after a fight" angry
  44. 0
    24 July 2023 00: 16
    I agree with the author's idea that raiding should be carried out against warships, especially if your fleet is noticeably inferior to the enemy fleet.
    Since WWII, the value of raider operations has only increased! After all, now the price of a single warship has increased significantly! The value of a single deck / coastal aircraft has also increased! This means that the LOSS of even a small number of ships / aircraft becomes irreplaceable. During WWII, only the heaviest first ranks were built for a long time (battleships and battlecruisers, for example). Therefore, there were few of them and their loss has always been an important event from the position of the attacker. But ships of a smaller class (heavy and light cruisers, heavy destroyers or torpedo bombers, armadillos), now, due to their noticeable simplicity and cheapness (against the background of first ranks), they were built faster and in large quantities. Therefore, the loss of such ships was not so critical, because they could gradually be replaced with new models (although it was still impossible to completely level the losses in a short time).
    But now - even the lightest air defense or anti-aircraft defense frigate costs FUN money. And it can take about a year or two years to build it. In the conditions of war, of course, they will start building 24/7 without interruptions, and then the total construction will be able to be reduced by one and a half times. BUT!!! The yard is no longer the 40s and the volume of production in the world is not the same. And if earlier power plants, even for one type of ship, were created at 3-4 large factories. Now it may be that the entire fleet is supplied with diesel engines from one company, and models for large ships (including all military ones) are produced at a single plant. This means that the destruction of the plant during a missile attack will be able to completely stop the production of power plants for the fleet for several months! And the loss of warships is now generally going wild. Because the pace of production, combined with the price of an individual ship, will not allow, in the event of war, to increase the production of new warships to a level exceeding the amount of losses.
    If during a hypothetical war, the enemy fleet loses an aircraft carrier and 3 destroyers of its escort. Then he will make up for them only if, by the time the war begins, ships are being completed on the stocks to replace them, which were laid down a couple of years before the war. But if by the time the war starts there are no ships for "quick completion of construction", then it will be possible to make up for the losses only with other own ships by pulling them from other base points (and therefore weakening other directions).

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned), Kirill Budanov (included to the Rosfinmonitoring list of terrorists and extremists)

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