The evolution of medium tanks in 1942-1943 in the USSR. T-43

205
In previous articles of the cycle dedicated to our famous “thirty-four”, the author briefly examined the stages of the evolution of German means tanks. The Wehrmacht had two such at the time of the invasion of the USSR: T-III and T-IV. But the first turned out to be too small and did not have reserves for further improvement: even in its most “advanced” version, it had a maximum of 50 mm armor (although, in the frontal part, it was reinforced with an additional 20 mm sheet) and a 50 mm long-barreled gun, the capabilities of which, however , were no longer considered sufficient to deal with the latest Soviet armored vehicles. This, of course, was not enough, and the production of the T-III was curtailed, in fact, in 1942 - although in the 1st half of 1943 the tank continued to be produced, its production did not exceed 46 vehicles a month, although in February September 1942, the Germans came close to releasing 250 tanks monthly.

As for the T-IV, it, in fact, until the very end of the war remained a reliable "workhorse" of the Wehrmacht and completely retained its relevance. It was possible to install a very powerful 75-mm anti-tank long-barrel gun based on the famous Pak 40, and the thickness of the vertically located frontal parts was brought to 80 mm. But even the frontal projection was not completely protected by such armor, and the sides had only 30 mm protection without rational tilt angles, and made their way through almost any anti-tank means. In other words, the combination of good frontal armor and a very powerful gun made the T-IV a rather formidable and combat-ready tank until the very end of the war, but at the same time it also had very significant flaws that German tankers, of course, wanted to eradicate. However, within the framework of the design of the T-IV, this was not possible.



As a result, the Germans tried to create a completely new medium tank, with armor “like the T-34” and weighing up to 35 t, as well as a new, even more powerful gun than the T-IV cannon. The result was a “Panther” with its “indestructible” frontal armor 85-110 mm (and 85 mm at a rational angle) but with very vulnerable sides of the hull and turret thickness 40-45 mm. The Panther’s 75-mm cannon was a heavy-duty anti-tank gun, superior in armor penetration at a direct-shot distance even surpassing the famous 88-mm gun, but for all this we had to pay a huge weight for the medium tank of those years - 44,8 m. As a result, from a potentially excellent medium The Panther tank turned into a heavy tank of highly controversial merits, the main drawback of which was the impossibility of its production in an amount sufficient to equip tank divisions.

And what happened at this time in the USSR?


As mentioned earlier, the shortcomings of the pre-war T-34 arr. 1940 was not a secret either for the designers or for the military. Therefore, even before the war, in parallel with the fine-tuning and the organization of mass production of the T-34, the so-called T-34M was developed, which can be considered as a deep modernization of the T-34, and it can also be a new tank created taking into account the experience gained in creating T -34.

The evolution of medium tanks in 1942-1943 in the USSR. T-43


From the point of view of armament and the thickness of the body armor, the T-34M copied the T-34, but judging by the figures, the angles of inclination of the side armor plates of the hull and turret were less than that of the "thirty-four", which gave somewhat worse protection. But the tank received a relatively spacious tower for three crew members, the number of which, finally, increased from four to five. The commander’s turret was also envisaged, despite the fact that the tower itself, of course, had a wide shoulder strap. Christie's suspension changed to a more modern torsion bar, the gearbox was left at the first stage, although the creation of a planetary gearbox for the tank was carried out at an accelerated pace.

The T-34M project was introduced in January 1941. On the whole, it can be said that at the cost of a slight weakening of the T-34M’s armor protection, it got rid of most of the T-34 flaws and, in this form, was an excellent medium tank, far exceeding the German troika and "Four" with which Germany entered the war in almost all parameters. In addition, the design had a weight reserve of about a ton, which allowed the military to demand a head-up reservation to 60 mm.

According to the pre-war plans, the plants producing T-34 had to gradually switch to the production of T-34M, and the first 500 machines of this type were to be made already in 1941. Alas, T-34M was not embodied in the metal, and the 2 was the most important factor: first, with the beginning of the war, the number of combat vehicles delivered to the troops came to the fore, and to reduce the production of T-34, which even in the un-upgraded version was a formidable fighting force, was considered erroneous in the development of the new technology. The second factor was that the T-34M was supposed to use a new tank diesel B-5, the development of which was delayed. And, apparently, it was impossible to force it with the start of the war, since all the forces were thrown at eliminating the “childhood diseases” of the existing B-2, and even this task was not immediately solved.

Thus, the beginning of the Great Patriotic War, in fact, put an end to the further fate of the T-34M - the case was limited to the release of 2 cases with suspension, but without engines, rollers and transmissions and 5 towers, and it is unclear whether the guns were installed in them the plant was evacuated during the evacuation, but it did not find further use. Designers of the USSR concentrated on improving and improving the manufacturability of the T-34 design, and at the same time on organizing the release of the thirty-four already at 5 factories ...

But this did not mean stopping work on the new medium tanks for the Red Army.

“The king is dead. Long live the king!"


Already in December, 1941, the design bureau of the plant No. 183 (Kharkiv) was ordered to develop an improved version of the T-34, and now the key requirements were no longer improved ergonomics and visibility, but also the addition of an 5 crew member, but increased armor protection and cheaper tank. The designers immediately got down to business, and already in February 1942 g, that is, literally, after a couple of months, submitted such to the NCTP.

In this project, we will not see either a broad shoulder strap, no commander’s cupola, or a new engine, and the number of crews was not that increased, but, on the contrary, reduced — they got rid of the gunner-radio operator. Thanks to the corresponding reductions, the thickness of the armor was able to reach the 70 mm (front of the hull) and 60 mm in the sides and stern. Of course, no one stuttered about the new engine, but the suspension was thought to be made torsion (although, it seems, it was quickly abandoned) and put in an improved gearbox.



In other words, if the project submitted by the Design Bureau of Plant No. 183 to NKTP for consideration had something in common with the pre-war T-34M project, it is only that it can also be considered as a deep modernization of the Thirty-Four. But the logic of this modernization was completely different, which is why the Kharkiv citizens turned out to have a tank completely different from the T-34M of the pre-war model. However, a lot of confusion was created by the fact that this new modification received the same name as the pre-war tank that did not go into the series, that is, the T-34M. In this case, the T-34M arr. 1941 and T-34M arr. 1942 has very little in common - only that T-34 was taken as the “source”. And T-34M arr. 1942 cannot be considered as the evolution of the pre-war T-34M - these are completely different projects, which should not be confused.

Incidentally, the draft of the new T-34M NKTP did not accept. The military time recalled the "blindness" of the "thirty-four" arr. 1940 g, and therefore proposed to designers to create an even more protected tank, with bringing armor to 60-80 mm, under the condition of ensuring maximum speed in 50 km / h., Reliability, guaranteeing mileage to 1500-2000 km and providing a good overview for the tank commander and his driver. In this case, the chassis and the engine should have remained the same as on the T-34.

This new tank received the name T-43, and during its design, of course, the design reserve obtained during the work on both previous "versions" T-34М was used, but still talking about some continuity with the "pre-war" T-34M - can not. In essence, T-43 was originally a T-34 arr. 1942, on which they installed a new, three-seat tower, again bringing the number of crew members to 4's. And again - except for the "triple" tower had nothing to do with that which was installed on the T-34M arr. 1941

On the pre-war T-34M model, it was supposed to find a place for the gunner by increasing the tower's shoulder strap from 1 420 to 1 700 mm. On the first T-43 models, the designers tried to solve a completely non-trivial task - to create a three-seat tower in a small pursuit, that is, the same 1 420 mm that the original T-34 model had. Of course, the place was categorically not enough, so several options were tried. Including the tower to be modeled on the one that was put on the T-50, in which the task of placing the three crew members was somehow solved: but you need to understand that having the same shoulder strap as the T-34, the T-50 tower it was not equipped with a 76,2-mm F-34, but only with a 45-mm gun. In the end, it was possible to “tamp” another member of the crew, but how? It seems that this layout was not in any tank of the world.



In this form, the T-43 drawings were ready in September-October 1942, and the prototype - in December of the same year. It must be said that despite the presence of a very original tower, other solutions differed by technical rationality - the fact is that by the end of 43, the majority of the T-1942 assemblies and assemblies were tested on conventional T-34 in order to identify and eliminate all kinds of childhood diseases. Interestingly, some of this was later given to the serial T-34: for example, the 5-speed gearbox, which began to be installed on the serial T-34 from the spring 1943, was developed for the T-43, but so well "fit" in T-34, that this was decided to use.

Of course, such a unification entailed a natural desire to embody the new T-43 on the serial T-34 to the maximum, and therefore in October 1942 was created T-34С (“С” - high-speed) - a certain hybrid of T-34 arr. 1942 and T-43. From the "forty-third" this car received a three-seat turret, the above-mentioned 5-speed gearbox and the reinforcement of the hull frontal armor to 60 mm. But tests have shown that in this form the ergonomics of the T-34С left much to be desired, and even with armor in 45 mm its mass exceeded 32 t, while a number of mechanisms worked unstably. Many trials caused triple tower of the original layout. The commander's turret did not have its own hatch, that is, the commander first needed to climb into the tower using another hatch, then lower the sleeve, then take his place, and raise the sleeve. The diagram clearly shows that the commander should have had a height no higher than average. There were also claims to leg support, mounting prisms in the commander’s cupola, etc.

In general, the upgrade failed, and since December 1942, all work on the T-34C was discontinued, and on the T-43, on the contrary, they were forced. By this time, the first prototype of the T-43 was ready "in metal". The tank turned out, let's say, very original. His crew was 4 man, but now three of them were in the tower with a narrow shoulder strap 1 420 mm. The designers honestly tried to alleviate the position of the tank commander, and achieved something in this area — for example, in order to “get” into his place he no longer had to move the sleeve-catcher. The radio operator arrow was abolished, the driver was transplanted from the left side of the tank to the right side, that is, to where the radio operator had previously been located, and the fuel tank was installed on the 500 l. The driver's hatch was refused, which, in combination with the new layout, to a certain extent increased the reliability of frontal projection protection, but worsened the possibilities for evacuating the mechanical drive. A machine gun fixed the motionless, while the fire from it was supposed to lead mechvod, focusing on the special risks in the surveillance device. But the most important innovation, of course, was the booking - T-43 received 75 mm forehead hull, 60 mm bead and hull stern and 90 mm forehead turret. In other words, the level of protection T-43 roughly corresponded to KV-1.


The very prototype


Nevertheless, in this form the T-43 is not that it did not pass state tests - it was not even allowed to them. But on the other hand, its factory tests lasted almost until the end of February 1943 and were very intense - suffice it to say that during this time the prototype T-43 passed 3 026 km. The tank turned out to be heavier than the T-34: the mass of the “thirty-four” arr. the beginning of the 1943 reached 30,5 tons, and the T-43 reached 34,1 tons (or 33,5 tons, it’s not entirely clear here) Of course, the driving performance of the tank decreased. So, the ability to overcome obstacles fell by about 5%, the speed of “clean movement” was 30,7 km / h versus about 34,5 km / h for the T-34, and the specific ground pressure reached 0,87 kg / sq. see what was deemed excessive.

However, apparently, the main "stumbling block" was a three-seat tower with a narrow shoulder strap - despite all the tricks of the designers, it was not possible to provide more or less acceptable ergonomics in it. In any case, NKTP, demanding the completion of the tank, decided to install on it a three-seat turret with a wide shoulder strap, as well as some smaller modifications, including a new type of track (with hinged hook) and a new radio station.

According to the documents, this tank was already passing as an improved T-43, the abbreviation T-43 (T-34М) was not applied to it. Work on it began as early as January 1943, with A. Morozov insisting on using two T-34 as “laboratories”, that is, a new tower with a wide shoulder strap was tested on them. Of course, this required a hefty revision of the Thirty-Fours design, because, for example, the new ring shoulder straps did not fit into the body - we had to make a special ring insert to lift the tower above the body so that it could freely rotate above the overmotor casing.

I must say that the new tower with epaulettes 1 600 mm was a success, everything worked well in it, except for the commander’s single-door hatch, which was unsuccessful, and was later replaced by a double-winged one. As planned, they installed a new radio station and tracks: otherwise, the new version of the T-43 differed little from the previous one, except that the driver was returned a full hatch.

The new tank, called the T-43-II, turned out to be a very successful vehicle, surpassing the T-34-76 in almost everything.


T-43-II



T-34-76 and T-43-II


True, the torsion bar suspension was not installed, but with the new gearbox it turned out not so bad. The crew still made up only 4 man, but now the "economy" was achieved by the gunner-radio operator, which was still a better solution than combining the functions of the gunner and the tank commander. The booking was 75 mm front of the hull and 60 mm of the side and the stern, with rational tilt angles - but in the tower they could not be saved, but the thickness of its frontal armor reached 90 mm. The tower itself, having received a shoulder strap in the 1 600 mm, turned out to be quite successful, and gave a much larger amount of armor, while the armament remained almost the same - the X-NUMX-mm F-76,2M gun.

Why did he not go to the series?


There were perhaps two main reasons for this. The first was that the tank was too late to be born. He was ready to be put into serial production by July 1943. It is interesting that the T-43 even managed to fight a bit as part of the so-called “special tank company No.100”, which, along with the T-43, included several promising tanks, such as the T-34 with an 57-mm gun. The specified company was sent to the Central Front on 19 in August and returned on 5 on September 1943, with the company commander giving T-43 excellent certification, and the crew of T-43 Junior Lieutenant Majorov was even presented with government awards for the destruction of three German anti-tank guns and two armored vehicles or armored personnel carriers. It is interesting that in his company every T-43 hit from 1 to 11 enemy shells, but not a single tank was disabled. However, all this does not negate the fact that the tank was ready only at the time of the beginning of the Battle of Kursk, in which the Germans massively used their Tigers and Panthers, and the 76,2-mm gun was no longer enough to fight these German tanks.

In other words, the T-34 had a great modernization potential, and in the T-43 it was used to enhance the booking and improve the ergonomics of the tank. As a result, we managed to achieve a sharp increase in body armor, and the new tower was good, but the “limits” were chosen even a little more than fully - the T-43 turned out to be the ultimate, eliminating further modernization, and at the same time appeared at the moment when its main armament ceased meet the requirements of the time.

Why was the creation of the T-43 so late? Apparently, this was to blame for its designer A.A. Morozov. Considering history T-43, we see a strange step backward in comparison with the T-34M arr. 1941 - although even before the war the ergonomic benefits of a broad-shoulder tower were clear, for a long time they tried to install a narrow-shoulder tower on a tank, looking for original ways to “stick” a third crew member there. In the end, they came to the conclusion that it was impossible to create such a tower, returned to the tower with a wide shoulder strap, but lost time on this - it can be assumed that if the T-43 was immediately created with a “broad-shouldered” tower, then the chances to go into series at the beginning 1943 g. Or even at the end of 1942 g. He would have had quite a lot.

But the fact is that it is A.A. Morozov advocated a narrow shoulder strap tower. On the one hand, there seems to be retrograde and short-sightedness, but on the other hand, A.A. Morozov mentioned in his correspondence that an increase in tower turret to 1 600 mm will increase the weight of the structure by 2 tons. In this case, A.A. Morozov understood very well that the medium tank should remain just the medium one and not go into the category of heavy, he was well aware that the problems with organizing the mass production of the T-43 would be less, the closer his design would be to the T-34. Of course, A.A. Morozov acted within the framework of the TTZ supplied to him, but he, obviously, understood all the validity of weight discipline and did not try to create “vundervaffe” for 40 tons by weight. And for a tank weighing 32-34, it is very difficult to find two tons “for the sake of ergonomics”, and, probably, it is possible only due to the deterioration of some other fighting qualities, but A.A. Morozov was tasked with creating a much better protected tank than the T-34 ...

The creation of a medium tank is always a way of compromise, designed to put a maximum of fighting qualities in a limited weight. The attempt to create a three-seat tower in a narrow pursuit, of course, was erroneous, but under the conditions when A.A. Morozov needed to dramatically strengthen the armor of the tank, he obviously did not consider it possible to allow himself to "throw away" tons of weight on ergonomics. The designer had very strong reasons to go exactly this way, and therefore, in the opinion of the author, one cannot blame him for moss or retrograde. However, I repeat, the attempt to squeeze the third member of the crew into the tower with an 1 420 mm shoulder strap was certainly an erroneous decision. She was not expected to succeed, but she delayed the development time, shifted to the right the timing of the tank's readiness for mass production, perhaps for a period from a quarter to six months.

So, by the middle of 1943 in the USSR, an excellent medium tank was created, but alas, for 1942.



And in 1943, the prospective tank of this subclass required not the 76,2-mm, but the 85-mm artillery system: but then the question arises, why not try to install it on T-43, and not on T-34? And here we smoothly approach the second reason, for which T-43 never went into mass production.

Of course, as already mentioned above, the T-43 turned out to be of the utmost design even with an 76,2-mm instrument, but, nevertheless, there were options to install an 85-mm gun on it. One of them is to reduce the capacity of the tower to two people. In this case, the 85-mm gun “climbed” onto the tank without critical overload. But, on the other hand, the size of the crew of the T-43 at the same time decreased only to 3 people, which would be clearly unwise.

Another approach to installing the 85-mm gun could be to reduce the protection of the tank, it is quite possible that it could have been balanced at some intermediate level between the T-34 arr. 1943 and T-43. But ... in general, according to the author, the same AA is to blame for further improvement of the T-43. Morozov.

As mentioned above, this is in every respect a talented designer, understanding the extreme importance of increasing the reliability of the future tank, and with the goal of minimizing any “childhood diseases” of the latter, practically throughout the entire history of the development, the T-43 tested its individual components and assemblies with conventional " Thirty-fours. The towers with a wide shoulder strap were no exception. So, when it became clear the need for arming tanks on the 85-mm artillery system, it quickly became clear that the new tower was suitable for this purpose as well as possible. However, this tower very well "stood up" on the T-34. And in the end it turned out that it turned out to be much easier and faster to finish the tower under the 85-mm artillery system on a conventional T-34 than to continue work on the T-43, while the upgraded T-34, again, would be much easier and faster run in the series. And the front urgently needed tanks with 85-mm guns.

And because I.V. Stalin was absolutely right in saying A.A. Morozov at one of the meetings about the following:
"Comrade Morozov, you made a very good car. But today we already have a good car - the T-34. Our task now is not to make new tanks, but to enhance the fighting qualities of the T-34, to increase them release".


This is how the story of the T-34-85 began.

To be continued ...
205 comments
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  1. +9
    30 July 2019 18: 19
    Thank. Interesting. But honestly, the T-43 is much worse than the KV-13 ...
    1. +8
      30 July 2019 18: 52
      Of course, but there is quite a prototype prototype, with minimal chances for a series, and here the car almost went to the conveyor. T-95 is also said to be better than Almaty, but it can be said.
      1. +4
        30 July 2019 18: 55
        Quote: MooH
        Of course, but there is quite a prototype prototype, with minimal chances for a series, and here the car almost went to the conveyor.

        Alas, no one would let the T-43 onto the conveyor. Due to the fact that in the USSR since 1943 there was a shortage of armored hire. And putting this tank on the conveyor would drastically reduce the number of tanks produced
        1. +3
          30 July 2019 18: 57
          I understand the article that instead of the T-34 they would have launched anti-shell tanks if the Germans didn’t roll it out.
          1. +3
            30 July 2019 19: 00
            Quote: MooH
            I understand the article that instead of the T-34 they would have launched anti-shell tanks if the Germans didn’t roll it out.

            Would not be released. Since the 1942 of the year, German anti-tank and tank guns did not cost anything to pierce the 75-mm forehead of the KV-1, and here only 60-mm.
            1. +1
              30 July 2019 20: 48
              it wasn’t worth punching the KV-75 1 mm forehead, but here it’s only 60 mm.

              according to your logic and T-34-85 it was not worth releasing :)
              1. -1
                31 July 2019 02: 41
                Quote: MooH
                according to your logic and T-34-85 it was not worth releasing :)

                Why? As a modernization of the T-34 tank and with the advent of an excellent brand of armor steel intended for the manufacture of large parts by casting, this tank was the best solution in that situation. Deprived of numerous "childhood diseases" and having a design brought to a certain degree of perfection, this tank made it possible, without reducing the number of combat vehicles produced, to raise their quality higher.
                1. -6
                  31 July 2019 14: 42
                  The T 34-85 could only appear when America delivered large-diameter rotary Machines (there weren’t any in the USSR) to cut the support ring of the tower shoulder strap. Without this, it was impossible to install an 85 mm gun.
                  1. +3
                    31 July 2019 14: 46
                    Quote: vadim dok
                    In the USSR they were not

                    It is not clear from where the TALES taken. For the sake of interest, look at the diameter of the shoulder straps of the T-28 and T-35 tanks of the DEW release. By the way, the T-35 was produced at the Kharkov plant, in the same place as the T-34
                    1. -2
                      31 July 2019 15: 00
                      Leningrad under siege, Kharkov under occupation. Stalingrad (if it had suitable equipment) was broken.
                      KV-1 and KV-1s have not been discontinued, which means that machines cannot be used for the production of new towers for the T-34.
                      And at the Omsk plant number 174? At this plant, T-34-76 were produced until mid-1944.
                      1. 0
                        31 July 2019 15: 10
                        Quote: hohol95
                        And at the Omsk plant number 174?

                        You have forgotten "Krasnoe Sormovo" and Uralmash
                      2. +2
                        31 July 2019 15: 15
                        This is how the first T-34-85s appeared at Krasnoye Sormovo, plant # 112!
                        But with the D-5T gun. And Uralmash No. 183 made the T-34 from September 1942 to August 1943!
                        And his machines were first occupied by the HF program, and then by the IP program!
                      3. 0
                        31 July 2019 15: 16
                        Road spoon for dinner ....
                        But if it is not. Hard.
        2. +9
          30 July 2019 20: 10
          T-43 was successfully tested, it was adopted. Reference tanks managed to visit the front as part of the experimental NKTP company. The production of the installation series has begun. The creators of the tank were awarded for work on it. Back in the process of preparing the tank for production, in September 1943, we played for several reasons:
          - The T-43 did not have a big advantage over the T-34;
          - the T-43 tower, in which the installation of an 85-mm gun was possible, was also installed on the T-34 as a driving laboratory, which just gave rise to the T-34-85 with the T-43 tower. Release of the T-34-85 was undoubtedly easier to organize, in a war this was fundamental;
          - By July 1943, at the 183 plant, Morozov was already working on the design of the T-44, the NKTP leadership and, possibly, countries, prototypes of the T-44 were to be ready in January 1944 about this.
          Under these conditions, the production of the T-43 did not look a priority.
          As for the KV-13, for the first time I read the opinion of him as a successful car. The prototype was completely unreliable, the mass of the tank was exceeded and gradually grew to 38 tons. The benefit from the development of the KV-13 is the creation of the IS-1 and IS-2 on the basis of its concept, however, they had to be brought up for a very long time, already during production.
          1. +4
            30 July 2019 20: 58
            As for the KV-13, for the first time I read the opinion of him as a successful car

            I won’t argue about success, but the car is ideologically correct, this is one of the very first attempts to make a medium tank with heavy armor. The first prototype of MBT in the USSR. The technological level did not yet allow, but the designers have already tried.
            1. +1
              30 July 2019 21: 28
              The idea was ideologically correct. Weight 30t and armor 75mm. It was not possible to implement it. The car came out "wrong". Among the measures of maximum relief, an extremely erroneous solution was proposed - a crew of 3 people with a two-man turret with a small radius of the shoulder strap. At the very first tests, the military noted the overload of the tank commander. He could not follow the battlefield. A 3-man tower with a widened pursuit was recommended. This was hampered by the extremely dense layout (shorter than the KV-1 by 700mm). That is, the mass has crept even more upwards against 38 tons. At the same time, the 5-roller chassis no longer held. Here is the vicious circle, the result of which was the lengthening of the tank, the 6th roller, and the IS-1 came out, weighing 44 tons. Does it look like mass? Another attempt at a medium tank with heavy armor, Panther? However, the ISs came out as really heavy tanks.
              1. 0
                31 July 2019 19: 00
                and turn the engine across and ...
                1. +1
                  31 July 2019 21: 35
                  Quote: Mazuta
                  and turn the engine across and ...

                  Prior to this, Christie’s suspension did not allow this, then the requirement not to reduce the number of tanks released, even when switching to a new tank, as a result, up to 43% of units and assemblies were installed on the same 34 from 80. This could be done only at 44-oi, but its production was very difficult, in the destroyed Kharkov and without the return of equipment and people from N. Tagil
                  1. 0
                    1 August 2019 14: 15
                    The size of the engine allows you to do this ... It would be necessary to rearrange all the MTO and "squabble with the gearbox", that's for sure ... The time was very short, and therefore I just won't turn my tongue to reproach those people ...
          2. +3
            31 July 2019 02: 43
            Quote: Potter
            As for the KV-13, for the first time I read the opinion of him as a successful car.
            And where did you read about this? Can I get acquainted? If you are about my comment, then I did not say that the KV-13 was a successful machine. But my opinion that he was better than the T-43, I will now try to explain.
            The main thing of the T-43 is the dead end, it was practically deprived of the opportunity for further modernization, and the transfer of the conveyor to its production would take a lot of time, and you should not discount the resulting shortage of rolled armor in the USSR, which due to the increase in the VLD thickness would reduce the production of this part and therefore the tank in general
            KV-13 had, at that time, a more promising design, from which later the famous ISs appeared.
            As for the design.
            On the hull, the KV-13 advantage over the T-43 is immediately visible, its tower is closer to the geometric center, which significantly increases the comfort of the crew in motion, and just cradles less. Not to mention the fact that the cast nose of KV was easier to manufacture, which means that it allowed to establish a larger output.
            The chassis of the KV-13 in relation to the T-43, generally a couple of heads higher. It has a torsion bar, which, again, is better in terms of reliability, is simpler in structure and increases comfort while driving. Moreover, as the customers did not ask, the "genius" did not allow Morozov to abandon the ridge engagement and switch to the pin engagement, but I really don’t understand why he held on to it so. And in the KV-13 it was a pin, so not only that, the designer provided for the possibility, if necessary, to replace the drive wheel with the same one from the T-34 and use its caterpillar.
            So that’s why I think the KV-13 is better than the T-43
            1. +3
              31 July 2019 07: 09
              Quote: svp67
              Chassis KV-13 in relation to the T-43, generally a couple of goals higher. She’s torsion

              Surprise, but the T-43 has a torsion bar chassis.
              Well, then - on the T-43 it was possible to cure childhood diseases and take it into service, release reference vehicles, test them at the front and begin preparations for the series (M. Svirin, volumes 2 and 3 of his trilogy). Some of the technical solutions and components developed for the T-43 were used on the T-34, most importantly - its tower became the T-34-85 tower. Well, then - the development of the T-44, which was a breakthrough solution due to the transverse engine and the shift of the center of gravity back.
              On KV-13 this was achieved due to a double compressed tower with a small diameter pagon. That was yesterday's decision. The Ises received an elongated hull with a six-wheeled chassis, and not a hull and a five-wheeled chassis KV-13.
              1. +1
                31 July 2019 14: 03
                Quote: Potter
                Surprise, but the T-43 has a torsion bar chassis.

                Sory, misled by the author of this article:
                True, the torsion bar was never installed,
                Quote: Potter
                Well, then - on the T-43 it was possible to cure childhood diseases and take it into service, release reference vehicles, test them at the front and begin preparations for the series

                Something is not much wrong, it was proposed, but experienced vehicles were tested in battle.
                Quote: Potter
                The Ises received an elongated case with a six-track chassis, and not a body and a five-track chassis KV-13.

                No, the architecture of the building, namely a welded hull with a CAST bow, they have it from the KV-13. But how many skating rinks there are, this is already a matter of "development"
          3. +1
            31 July 2019 06: 12
            Quote: Potter
            Reference tanks managed to visit the front as part of the experimental NKTP company.

            Where did you get this from? No tanks there were still experienced, not only that of all types.
            25 September 1943 The People's Commissar of Tank Industry V. Malyshev held a meeting to review the state of affairs with new military equipment. The second question was devoted precisely to the activities of the “Special Tank Company 100”:
            Listen: Report of the commander of the wasps. Tank, company "100" comrade Volosatova G.P. on the results of the combat use of company tanks in battles of August 21 - September 5 p. g.
            Armament of the company: Commander's vehicle: Tank T-34 with an increase. tower on the pursuit of 1600 mm and r / st 9-PC in the tower and RSB-F in the housing with engine. Briggs-Stratton and ext. alkalis. accumulator.
            1 platoon: T-34 tanks with an enlarged turret on the pursuit of 1600 mm and a commander’s turret - 2 pcs.
            2 platoon: T-34 / 57 fighter tanks, armament 57 mm tank gun mod 1941 / 43 -3pcs
            3 platoon: T-43 tanks with a turret for enlargement and norms chasing - 3 pcs.
            4 platoon: Tanks T-34 factory 112 with fire - metn. installation - 2 pcs. ”
            According to the report, the company commander was sent to the front of 19 on August, and returned to the NKTP 5 on September. At the front, the company did not differ in activity and was mostly in the reserve of the Central Front. But, despite the close guardianship, the company still had the opportunity to participate in several military clashes with German troops. So, the crew of the T-43 junior lieutenant Majorova was awarded orders and medals (they destroyed three German anti-tank guns and 2 armored personnel carriers or BA). From the return fire of the German troops, almost all of the company’s tanks received from 1 to 11 (!) Hits, but the armor of their corps was not broken. Upon the company’s return, its commander, Captain Volosatoy, gave the T-43 tanks, the T-34 / 57 fighter tanks and the commander’s tank the most favorable review, noting only the armament of the T-43 76-mm gun insufficient.
            1. 0
              1 August 2019 11: 40
              [quote = svp67] [quote = Potter] Reference tanks managed to visit the front as part of the experimental NKTP company. [/ quote]
              [quote] Where did you get this. No tanks there were still experienced, not only that of all types.

              According to the report, the company commander was sent to the front on August 19, and returned to the NKTP on September 5. At the front, the company did not differ in activity and was mostly in the reserve of the Central Front. But, despite the close guardianship, the company still had the opportunity to participate in several military clashes with German troops. So, the crew of the T-43 junior lieutenant Majorova was awarded orders and medals (they destroyed three German anti-tank guns and 2 armored personnel carriers or BA). Almost all the company’s tanks received from 1 to 11 (!) Hits from the return fire of the German troops, but the armor of their corps was not broken. Upon the company’s return, its commander, captain Volosatoy, gave the T-43 tanks, T-34/57 fighter tanks and the commander’s tank the most favorable review, noting only the arming of the T-43 tanks with a 76-mm cannon was insufficient. [/ Quote]

              But serious historians who work with documents and not on the Internet refute this story with military tests:
              [quote] The second myth associated with the history of the T-43 is information about their front-line tests as part of the "special tank company 100". Allegedly, the company, which included two T-43s, arrived at the front on August 19, and returned to the plant on September 5, 1943. It seems that during one of the battles, the crew of one "forty-third" destroyed three anti-tank guns and two armored personnel carriers (for which he received awards), and the second T-43 received 11 hits of armor-piercing 75 mm shells from a distance of 800 m that did not penetrate the armor.

              Well, here is the information given, as in the case with the adoption of the T-43 into service, - Fiction of pure water. It is enough to look at the timing of the test runs (from August 2 to 28, 1943 in the area of ​​Nizhny Tagil, Sverdlovsk and Chelyabinsk), and it will immediately become clear that the "special tank company 100" is nothing more than a myth. [/ Quote]
              Maxim Kolomiets
              THIRTY-FOURTH HEIRS
              T-34M, T-43, T-34-100, T-44
        3. +3
          31 July 2019 15: 14
          Quote: svp67
          Alas, no one would let the T-43 onto the conveyor. Due to the fact that in the USSR since 1943 there was a shortage of armored hire. And putting this tank on the conveyor would drastically reduce the number of tanks produced


          For some reason, no one thinks about the shortage of good tankers - they burned down, the T-34 could not save its crew.
          The crew sawed through the headset jacks so that they would not interfere with the quick exit of the tank in case of fire - it jumped out the first three seconds after being hit until the fuel burned up - it did not burn.
          If injured or shell-shocked and couldn’t quickly leave the ignited tank, it’s out of luck.
          Hence the heavy losses and experienced tankers worth its weight in gold.

          A tank with good armor, kept the crew better, gave confidence in the battle, contributed to the accumulation of combat experience ... would.

          many people ask this question:
          My grandfather fought in the 26th Guards Tank Brigade, so I began to study materials related to the military operations of this unit. While studying, I came across brigade combat magazines. I tracked the period from May 1944 to January 1945. The team was then equipped with a T 34-85. She participated in this period in the following operations: Offensive in Belarus, the Baltic States (6-8.1944); Gumbinen (10.1944); Konigsberg direction (January1945). Upon acquaintance, I was most struck by the scale of the losses of equipment and personnel of the brigade compared with the German. Before each major operation, tank battalions were re-equipped with marching tanks and crews. During the fighting, almost all tanks went down for various reasons. Example. The battalion launched the offensive with 21 tanks. During the week of marches and battles from Orsha to Minsk, the battalion lost 16 tanks (burned, knocked out and out of order for technical reasons. As a result, the battalion entered Minsk 4-5 tanks. The situation is the same for other units of the brigade. But losses in Belarus were not as large as in East Prussia. There, after the first day of fighting, 19.10/1944/16. The battalion lost half of the tank and tanks. And on the Koenigsberg direction on 20.1945-XNUMX the battalions of the brigade were completely defeated.
          Especially a lot of tank crews burned down in Vost. Prussia. Units survived these three offensives. During this period, not only tank, platoon and company commanders perished, but also combatants and brigade commanders and political officers and technicians. You read dry lines of magazines where without emotion the losses and daily life of battalions are listed and you are surprised. I want to understand why at the end of the war there were such big losses of tanks and l / s

          http://livinghistory.ru/topic/62723-poteri-tankov-t-34-vo-vremia-boevykh-operatcii/

          Losses of Soviet armored vehicles in 1944.
          medium tanks: availability on 01.01.1944/9,2/1944 - 17,0 thousand units; received in 31.12.1944 - 13,8 thousand units; losses on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX - XNUMX thousand units. - This is for all medium tanks - including Lend-Lease.
          according to the data from "The classified information has been removed. Losses of the Armed Forces of the USSR in wars, hostilities and military conflicts." / Ed. G.F.Krivosheeva. Moscow: Military Publishing, 1993.

          1st Ukrainian Front Operation Department Report:
          Of the 935 T-1–9 1945 tanks that were disabled during the period from April 34 to May 85, 625, they were disabled by artillery (289 of them were irretrievable) and only 37 vehicles (12 were irretrievable) were Faustpatrons. That is, based on the T-34–85, the Faustpatrons give only 6% of the total tank losses and only 2% of the irretrievable ones.
          In the period from January 12 to April 5, 1945, 1072 T-34 tanks, struck by artillery, had 115 vehicles lined with “Fausters”.
          http://militera.lib.ru/research/isaev_av_zhukov/15.html
          That is, losses from artillery prevailed over losses from other means.

          there is such data

          https://rostislavddd.livejournal.com/359840.html?format=light&nojs=1
          This is the price of deciding to have many tanks with weak armor protection ....
          1. 0
            31 July 2019 15: 32
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            For some reason, no one thinks about the shortage of good tankers - they burned down, the T-34 could not save its crew.

            Alas, but the T-43 would not have been able to save it. Here is the subsequent model of the T-44, it could have worked, but he was "sick" for a long time as a child
            1. 0
              31 July 2019 19: 14
              or maybe "were sick for a long time" 43?
              1. +1
                31 July 2019 21: 29
                Quote: Mazuta
                or maybe "were sick for a long time" 43?

                Not. Morozov perfectly understood the impasse of 43 and what prospects 44 had. Immediately after the liberation of Kharkov, the tank factory began to be restored there, on which the production of the 44
                1. +1
                  1 August 2019 09: 31
                  Quote: svp67
                  Quote: Mazuta
                  or maybe "were sick for a long time" 43?

                  Not. Morozov perfectly understood the impasse of 43 and what prospects 44 had. Immediately after the liberation of Kharkov, the tank factory began to be restored there, on which the production of the 44


                  I agree - 44 is better protected on my head.
                  1. 0
                    1 August 2019 14: 24
                    I already wrote it once ... It's a pity that this "revolutionary" machine has been forgotten ...
                    With her, it all began ...
                2. 0
                  1 August 2019 14: 36
                  "... No. Morozov perfectly understood the dead end of 43rd and what are the prospects for 44th ..."
                  But after all, time was really lost a lot, but sorry ...
      2. 0
        13 August 2019 10: 28
        Quote: MooH
        Of course, but there’s quite a prototype prototype, with minimal chances for a series

        What is it all of a sudden, there is maximum use pouring for unique parts, the rest is already in production. KV-13 had a chance to produce more than the T-43.
    2. +2
      30 July 2019 18: 54
      Both were worth each other. KV-13 was very, very crude. But both brought some benefit - T-34-85 and IS
      1. 0
        30 July 2019 21: 43
        All the same, the T-43 was originally with a triple turret with a wide shoulder strap and with the possibility of installing an 85 mm gun. And he was adopted by the army and brought to the possibility of mass production.
        1. +2
          31 July 2019 02: 48
          Quote: Potter
          All the same, the T-43 was originally with a triple tower with a wide shoulder strap and with the ability to install an 85-mm gun.

          But you contradict the history of the development of the design of this tank. It was not originally with the tower with an extended shoulder strap, designed for the installation of 85-mm gun. Morozov clung to the tower for a very long time with a standard shoulder strap for the T-34.
    3. -5
      31 July 2019 06: 16
      The author, who once again misinterpreted the story of the T-34M. Well, at the same time with the T-43, in addition to the fact that Morozov, there was also that scumbag. Those. during the war period 41-42gg. made a tank in which there was almost nothing from the T-34-76 (except for the motor, fan, BR, BF, and rollers). In fact, Morozov tried to push the tank, with a completely different body (and much more), instead of replacing only the tower.
      The only thing that was successful in the T-43 was a decrease in the height of the hull. This is exactly what could be done with the T-34-76 body. Then, the tower on the pursuit of 1600mm, was located quite kosher, and with the tower on the pursuit of 1420mm, it was possible to abandon the MV hatch on the VLD (transferring it to the roof of the case).
      1. +1
        31 July 2019 06: 23
        Quote: Jura 27
        in addition to Morozov, there was that scumbag.

        Excuse me, did you personally know that you characterize him that way?
        Quote: Jura 27
        This is exactly what could be done with the T-34-76 case. Then, the tower on the pursuit of 1600mm, was located quite kosher, and with the tower on the pursuit of 1420mm, it was possible to abandon the MV hatch on the VLD (transferring it to the roof of the case).

        And how would you be able to transfer the hatch with that layout and design? Enlighten
        1. -1
          31 July 2019 10: 26
          Why do I need to know him? Just look at its design of the T-43, well, you can still recall its whistle with the T-34M (instead of just installing on the T-34-76, a triple tower).

          The hull is lowered (as on the T-43) and on its roof, in front of the tower, there is space for the hatch MV.
          1. 0
            31 July 2019 12: 14
            up there on the photo t-34 and t-43 next, and if that t-43 and below - then the tower. Cutting off 5 centimeters (well, no more?) From the top of the case, you can’t get enough space on the turret sheet for the hatch, only seriously reducing the VLD angle. Even how to block part of the Shermans under it will not work
            1. 0
              31 July 2019 15: 44
              The T-43 just has a shorter case, according to the photo, it is impossible to judge the design of the case. The hull height of the T-43 was reduced by 78mm (yes, yes, much more than 50mm). So a place for the hatch appears, and two options are possible; including a slight (5 gr.) decrease in the angle of inclination of the VLD.
          2. +2
            31 July 2019 14: 16
            Quote: Jura 27
            Why do I need to know him?

            Well, something about strangers, and even older than you in age, speak out like that ... You just show the level of your upbringing. I have more complaints to Morozov, but I wouldn’t think of contacting him. The man really was extraordinary and did a lot for both our tank construction and the world
            Quote: Jura 27
            Well, you can also recall his whistle with T-34М (instead of just installing on the T-34-76, - a triple tower).

            I wonder what kind of "whistle" you would arrange being in his place then. When the general customer "looked very much at the German Pz-III" and they DEMANDED to upgrade the T-34, according to its model, and in the shortest possible time. But if you don't - the place of Koshkin's predecessors, on the bunks in the GULAG, planted and shot for disrupting the design deadlines for a new tank, is already free ...
            Quote: Jura 27
            The hull is lowered (as on the T-43) and on its roof, in front of the tower, there is space for the hatch MV.

            No, you wouldn’t succeed. Since this height was set by the Christie type chassis and the B-2 engine. I would have to redo too much
            1. -1
              31 July 2019 15: 59
              You have an antilogic, - I can’t criticize Aloizych now, either. Is he older than me and I was not familiar with him?
              Morozov, yes, he did a lot to make the Red Army suffer fantastic losses in medium tanks, there is no dispute. He started designing a completely new tank (excluding the guns), when it was possible, by simply installing a three-man turret, to surpass the "three" and at the same time satisfy the customer's requirements.
              Then in 41-42gg. sawed a tank with a completely new hull and chassis, although again it was only necessary to replace the turret and slightly change the hull structure at the top.

              [/ quote] No, you wouldn’t succeed. Since this height was set by the Christie type chassis and the B-2 engine. It would be too much to redo [quote]

              It's not like that at all.
              1. Do you see the height of the first candle in your picture? There were no problems reducing the height of the suspension candles by 78mm.
              2. The height of the housing depended not only on the height of the motor, but also on the radius of the fan overcast. On the T-43, the fan was recessed below the bottom of the sheet, the air filters were altered (lowering the height of the motor) and the case became 78mm lower. Here Morozov worked well, one might even say perfectly. Only now all this had to be done with the T-34-76 body. And then, either the MV hatch leaves the VLD, or the triple tower with extended shoulder straps rises well.
              1. 0
                31 July 2019 16: 49
                So you yourself answered the expense of reducing the height of the hull: in the back, initially raised part of the engine compartment.
                1. -1
                  1 August 2019 04: 02
                  Quote: prodi
                  So you yourself answered the expense of reducing the height of the hull: in the back, initially raised part of the engine compartment.

                  There was no raised part, neither back nor front, from the word at all. Between the roof and the bottom along the entire length of the hull was the same height.
              2. +1
                31 July 2019 19: 09
                let the hatch with the VLD not go down, lowering the hull!
                1. +1
                  31 July 2019 19: 57
                  yes, as it is now known, only all measures together allowed to do this in a case of that length and it was a t-44
                2. 0
                  1 August 2019 04: 03
                  Quote: Mazuta
                  let the hatch with the VLD not go down, lowering the hull!

                  Will leave without problems, it was just necessary to correctly approach the issue, and freeze out on the new T-34M tank.
                  1. +1
                    1 August 2019 14: 06
                    Do not write about the hatch, absolutely !!!
                    "... just correctly approach the question, and freeze on the new T-34M tank ..."
                    You need to correctly approach any issue, I will subscribe to every word in this phrase of yours ...
                    About the T-34M ... A lot of time was lost, but !!!
                    More than 70 years later, it is much easier for you (and me too) to be clever. And the thought did not visit your brilliant head, which could simply "not overshadow" the Chief, Early. department, leader, etc ...
                    1. 0
                      2 August 2019 10: 52
                      Quote: Mazuta
                      Do not write about the hatch, absolutely !!!
                      "... just correctly approach the question, and freeze on the new T-34M tank ..."
                      You need to correctly approach any issue, I will subscribe to every word in this phrase of yours ...
                      About the T-34M ... A lot of time was lost, but !!!
                      More than 70 years later, it is much easier for you (and me too) to be clever. And the thought did not visit your brilliant head, which could simply "not overshadow" the Chief, Early. department, leader, etc ...

                      No, I’ll write, especially for you: the MV hatch can be placed on the roof of the case, lowering the height of the case and slightly reducing the inclination of the VLD.

                      Morozov visited the brilliantly simple idea of ​​replacing the tower, but he drowned this idea in endless meetings and, as a result, in designing a new tank, the T-34M.

                      But when the roasted rooster began to peck at the full, the tower was quickly replaced with another, almost without loss of the number of produced tanks.
              3. -3
                31 July 2019 19: 32
                Morozov is still that cretin - between November 1942, when near Leningrad the first whole Tiger came to ours and on December 15, 1943 "made" his T-34-85. The tank was at least half a year late. And Kotin was giving birth to his IS-2 for a long time. It was known to all "tankmen" and "artillerymen". that not only 100-ku frontal, but also 80-ku airborne there is nothing to take. Our tankers paid with their blood in the summer of 1943. And this Stalin, a bastard, had to shoot these mediocrities and idlers. and not to reward social heroes. labor.
                1. +1
                  31 July 2019 21: 43
                  Quote: Sergey K
                  Morozov is still that cretin - between November 1942, when near Leningrad the first whole Tiger came to ours and on December 15, 1943 "made" his T-34-85. The tank was at least half a year late. And Kotin was giving birth to his IS-2 for a long time.
                  Well, yes, well, yes ... "everyone imagines himself a strategist ..."
                  1. -1
                    1 August 2019 16: 55
                    There is no need to imagine anything from yourself, there was a war. you need to think faster, and not pretend to be a strategist, any very simple engineer would suggest a quick option - to remove from the front in December 1942, January 1943 - all the surviving KV-shki, any plant would cope with this task, remove the towers from them , weld a felling from 5 or 10. you can even use raw boiler steel. insert a 102 mm naval gun into it (remove it from the "Cruising" submarines. All the same, there was no point in them in the fleet). And there would be something to meet the Tigers and Panthers in the summer of 1943. The head is given to a person not only to eat and wear a budenovka.
                    1. 0
                      1 August 2019 22: 41
                      Quote: Sergey K
                      The head is given to man not only to eat and wear a budenovka.

                      That's it. And now where is the chief designer of the plant number XXUMX. Give answer. These are not his duties.
                      1. 0
                        3 August 2019 17: 56
                        Guys, I understand the passions, no offense, I understand everything. I mean time was like that. that decisions must be taken instantly, everything is paid for with soldier’s blood, I mean engineering errors and engineering indecision.
                      2. 0
                        3 August 2019 20: 32
                        Quote: Sergey K
                        I mean engineering mistakes and engineering indecision.

                        Yes, time and opportunity were different. Errors were, where without them, if there was no special experience, but various solutions, including very bold ones, were full. It is a different matter that everything restrained production. If it was said that this or any other change would lead to a decrease in production, its use was immediately questioned.
              4. +1
                31 July 2019 21: 40
                Quote: Jura 27
                You have an antilogic, - I can’t criticize Aloizych now, either. Is he older than me and I was not familiar with him?

                To criticize, yes please, only without humiliation. In any case, to people like Morozov.
                Quote: Jura 27
                Morozov, yes, he did a lot for the Red Army to suffer fantastic losses in medium tanks, no doubt here.

                How is everything easy and simple ...
                Quote: Jura 27
                Only now all this had to be done with the T-34-76 case. And then, either the MV hatch leaves the VLD, or the triple tower with extended shoulder straps rises well.

                The fur-water hatch in this case would be very small, you would have to lengthen the hull, and this is extra pounds of armor
                1. -1
                  1 August 2019 04: 12
                  Quote: svp67
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  You have an antilogic, - I can’t criticize Aloizych now, either. Is he older than me and I was not familiar with him?

                  To criticize, yes please, only without humiliation. In any case, to people like Morozov.
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Morozov, yes, he did a lot for the Red Army to suffer fantastic losses in medium tanks, no doubt here.

                  How is everything easy and simple ...
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Only now all this had to be done with the T-34-76 case. And then, either the MV hatch leaves the VLD, or the triple tower with extended shoulder straps rises well.

                  The fur-water hatch in this case would be very small, you would have to lengthen the hull, and this is extra pounds of armor

                  Both ruined people - and therefore scumbags.
                  And what's so difficult, on the T-43 Morozov lowered the height of the hull easily and simply, the inclination of the VLD also decreased easily and simply.
                  Why lengthen the case? You can slightly reduce the slope of the VLD.
                  1. 0
                    1 August 2019 06: 25
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    Both ruined people - and therefore scumbags.

                    You know, something in your head is clearly not how you can compare Hitler with Morozov? Have you ever worked in production? Do you have experience in designing, setting up production? At least in your childhood did you make models with your own hands?
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    And what's so difficult, on the T-43 Morozov lowered the height of the hull easily and simply, the inclination of the VLD also decreased easily and simply.

                    This is all "easy and simple" for you, and it takes years for designers and especially production workers. This is the reality of mass production
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    Why lengthen the case? You can slightly reduce the slope of the VLD.

                    Changing the angle of inclination by only 5 degrees significantly reduced the rebound effect. Like this. In addition, with the new location of the hatches, it would be necessary to recalculate the stiffness of the roof, and indeed the entire body, and this would lead to a change in the structure of the body, and hence the production technology would change. And all this would lead to a decrease in finished products. But no one would give permission to the latter.
                    1. 0
                      1 August 2019 08: 28
                      There is clearly something wrong with your mind - with your antilogic.
                      Then you have the antilogic again: you sing a song saying that the other angle of inclination of the VLD, the sunroof and so on are the years of work for the production workers, but nevertheless you are against what I called Morozov a scumbag who sawed in 41- 42gg T-43 in general with a different body than the T-34-76 (not to mention the fact that the T-43, from the T-34, had only a motor and a gun, and there’s something for the little things).
                      1. 0
                        1 August 2019 08: 36
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Well, on the little things something

                        These "little things" accounted for 80% of the total ...
                        So you didn't answer about your design and manufacturing experience. Or as I understand it, there is nothing to answer. You are simply a fighter "for all good, against all bad."
                        Only it is not enough to want this, you have to show by your example and ability to show how it is done, and not just "talk with your tongue"
                      2. 0
                        1 August 2019 10: 28
                        This is a lie, about the mythical 80% (the body and suspension are different - how many percent?, The tower is different - how many percent? PPC is different - this is how many percent? I won’t remember the little things). In addition, according to your antilogic, even it will take years to insert a hatch into the roof, and what can we say about 20% of the changes invented by someone.
                        I had experience in production and design in a non-tank area. But the latter is not needed to evaluate the design of the T-43, compared with the T-34-76. A good engineering background is enough for this.
                      3. 0
                        1 August 2019 22: 48
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        It's a lie, - about the mythical 80%

                        You are like a constructor, 80% of components and assemblies
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        I had experience in production and design in a non-tank area.

                        And often, what was conceived and originally developed was perceived by technologists and production workers with a bang, and even on the first try?
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        But the latter is not needed to evaluate the design of the T-43, compared with the T-34-76. For this, a good engineering education is enough.

                        The T-43 is just a "dead end", it would ruin all production and leave our tank troops for a long time without tanks.
                      4. 0
                        2 August 2019 03: 46
                        [/ quote] 80% of the nodes and assemblies [quote]

                        In your previous comment, instead of "units and assemblies" there was an ellipsis.
                        80% of the same units and assemblies do not matter, from the word at all, because the T-43 has a completely new chassis with suspension, a new tower and gearbox. How many years, the manufacturers will master it all, if in your opinion, the sunroof will be mastered for several years? And why did frostbitten Morozov saw in such a 41-42gg such a very long development tank?
                      5. 0
                        2 August 2019 16: 16
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        because T-43 has a completely new enclosure

                        No, and here you are wrong. The case is not completely new, but slightly modernized. I will repeat: "slightly". The T-34 had a double side of the tank; Christie's suspension units were installed between it. Having abandoned it in favor of torsion bars, they also abandoned double booking, but the T-43 armor plates themselves almost completely copy the same ones from the T-34.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        new tower and checkpoint

                        That you are attached to the checkpoint and the tower? Simultaneously with this tank, modernized T-34s with different turrets were tested, and the checkpoint of the T-34, over the years of production, changed it three or four times, but this did not make another tank out of it. It was just that there were big claims to the old structures and "bleeding from the nose", but it was necessary to do something new and did
                      6. 0
                        3 August 2019 04: 24
                        I note: you are absolutely not aware of the designs of the T-34 and T-43 cases, therefore, write complete nonsense from the very beginning of the dialogue. See the drawings, there is NO SINGLE common detail. And by the way, do you have an engineering degree? And yet, the T-34 never had a double hull, because the suspension was installed in the mines, BT had a double case and, again, the inner sheet was made of non-armored steel.

                        I got stuck because you said that it would take years to insert a hatch into the roof, so I ask you: how many years will it take, according to your antilogy, to install a new tower and a checkpoint? I can rephrase the question - if in real life the towers were changed like gloves (at least 5pcs were different), how many days will it take to insert a hatch into the roof?
                      7. 0
                        3 August 2019 07: 06
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        I got stuck because you said that it would take years to insert a hatch into the roof, so I ask you: how many years will it take, according to your antilogy, to install a new tower and a checkpoint? I can rephrase the question - if in real life the towers were changed like gloves (at least 5pcs were different), how many days will it take to insert a hatch into the roof?

                        Well, judging by the history of our tank building, it took the "Kharkovites" five years to insert the hatch. Although they thought about it constantly. Here is one of the variants of the T-34M (A-43) from 1940, with a "broken nose", like the KV

                        The trouble is that 45-mm armor at an angle of 25 degrees would have low armor resistance, compared with the same whole armor at an angle of 60 degrees
                        But to replace the tower took three years. The same amount at the checkpoint. By the way, 5-speed gearbox did not appear on the T-43, it has already been run on the T-34. Here is a photo from her test in 1942
                        And not only that, for its invention, bringing, and know the quick implementation of the decision of the GKO of the USSR of February 1942, the designer received the Stalin Prize for 1942
                        The task for the development of a new gearbox was received by factory number 183 back in February 1942, and the first cars with such a gearbox were manufactured in July. At the same time, in the spring of 1942, the 5-speed gearbox project was ready. Such a delay in the manufacture of this unit is most likely associated with the work of KB-520 on the T-34M tank. This can serve as a confirmation of Stalin’s statement that “designers should not be distracted from the task of improving and modernizing the produced tanks”, voiced by him at the meeting of 5 on June 1942 of the year mentioned above. Thus, it can be assumed that the design of the T-34M postponed the production and testing of the 5-speed gearbox.


                        And the triple tower in the summer of 1942 of the year passed the test on the T-34

                        And not everything depended on the designers, who were not many already, and they worked tirelessly on the maintenance of both the serial production of the T-34, as well as on the experimental designs. But also from the manufacturers. Those dealing with qualified personnel were even worse.
                        Here is a section of the T-43, in this layout I do not see the possibility of reducing the height of the hull of this tank

                        And lastly about the notorious 80%, here is an excerpt from the explanatory note on the T-43 tank ...
                        "The dimensions of the tank have been somewhat reduced, which was achieved by the use of a torsion bar suspension on the T-43. On the T-43, the following components of the T-34 are preserved unchanged:
                        1. Air cleaner
                        2. Cooling Fan.
                        3. The main clutch.
                        4. Gearbox
                        5. Side clutches.
                        6. The brakes.
                        7. Driving wheels.
                        8. Supporting wheels.
                        9. The wheels of a sloth.
                        10. The main parts of the final drive.
                        11. Driver's seat.
                        12. Engine B2-34.
                        13. All units of electrical equipment.
                        14. All ball and roller bearings.
                        15. Air launch system.
                        16. A guard of control devices.
                        17. Caterpillar.
                        18. Tool and accessories.
                        19. Radio equipment. "
                        Especially for you, highlighted item No.4.
                      8. 0
                        4 August 2019 05: 47
                        Yes, yes, the sunroof is the most difficult part of the tank. According to your antilogic, the development and installation of five towers in a tank is equal to installing one hatch in the roof. Feerichnenko.
                        Why are you writing to me that you don’t see ways to lower the height of the T-43? Are you okay with an understanding of the simplest things? For I am writing to you that the height of the T-34 hull must be made like that of the T-43. Fershteyn?
                      9. 0
                        4 August 2019 08: 22
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Fershteyn?

                        Yavol. Well, it would have given some weight reduction T-34, but would require reconfiguration of welding machines. But it would still not give that free space to install full hatches
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        According to your antilogics, the development and installation of five towers in a tank is equal to the installation of one hatch in the roof. Enchanting.

                        Sorry, but the five-tower tank was planned as such, and then we would have to actually construct a new hull and, most importantly, do it later. There is just a transition to a wider shoulder strap how long it took, until they realized that it was impossible to continue pulling.
                      10. +1
                        5 August 2019 05: 27
                        The transition to a larger epaulette took zero time. The number of tanks released per month did not sink.
                        Reconfiguring the welding machine is a matter of several hours.
                      11. 0
                        13 August 2019 10: 40
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        How many years, the manufacturers will master it all, if in your opinion, the sunroof will be mastered for several years

                        The problem was not with the tower, but with the hull, they were made on the basis of rolled sheets of greater thickness, in wartime, the transition to new thicknesses could lead to a decrease in production by at least 2,5 times. Production of T-43 tanks would be reduced proportionally. There were slightly less problems with 60-mm sheets for the T-34M, but in any case, we received a decrease in the production of rolled sheets by 2 times. + There are questions on the automatic welding of Paton thicker sheets. The complexity of the assembly would definitely increase.
                2. 0
                  1 August 2019 13: 55
                  A man does not understand that he writes nonsense ...
                3. 0
                  1 August 2019 17: 12
                  You shouldn’t run into a guy. Yuri writes everything correctly. 34 is a very successful car. it was impossible to make candy out (if Koshkin was alive. very sorry). At the end of the war, even 100-ku was stuck in the tower. Malyshev’s very big stupidity that he didn’t let him into the series.
                  1. +1
                    2 August 2019 16: 20
                    Quote: Sergey K
                    At the end of the war, even 100-ku was stuck in the tower. Malyshev’s very big stupidity that he didn’t let him into the series.

                    And what is nonsense then? T-34/100 poorly "held" a shot, especially on the move. It took a lot of time to finish it, it was much more promising to spend it on installing such a gun on the T-44 and bringing it to a series
                    1. 0
                      3 August 2019 17: 46
                      Sergey, well, when did the T-34 shoot from the move? Well, in principle, I agree with the T-44 for its time - the best tank in the WORLD, without pathos, even the next 10-15 years did not make anyone better, let me remind you that the first ones had VLL -120 mm, and this is at an angle then 60 degrees, even T- 54 and T-55. You understand worse until the T-64 appears. though only the first series, then for some reason they thinned to 90 mm. Well, why didn’t weave it right away. this is a drawback. Well, 102 on 1000, and 138 on 500-ke this is not a time very outdated tool for the middle of 1940-x. You think this is better than me.
                      1. 0
                        3 August 2019 17: 48
                        Sergei, now I just realized, I meant a hundred parts gun.
              5. +1
                1 August 2019 09: 35
                Quote: Jura 27
                either the MV hatch leaves the VLD, or the triple tower with extended shoulder straps rises well

                In order to remove the driver’s hatch from the front sheet to the top sheet, it was necessary to shift the tower to the center of the body, and this could only be done by expanding the transmission compartment (which would entail an increase in size and an additional track roller - which is not acceptable) or by placing the engine across, which was implemented in the T-44.
                1. 0
                  1 August 2019 10: 30
                  Quote: DimerVladimer
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  either the MV hatch leaves the VLD, or the triple tower with extended shoulder straps rises well

                  In order to remove the driver’s hatch from the front sheet to the top sheet, it was necessary to shift the tower to the center of the body, and this could only be done by expanding the transmission compartment (which would entail an increase in size and an additional track roller - which is not acceptable) or by placing the engine across, which was implemented in the T-44.

                  There is a much simpler option - to lower the height of the case with a simultaneous slight decrease in the inclination of the VLD.
                  1. 0
                    1 August 2019 11: 01
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    There is a much simpler option - to lower the height of the case with a simultaneous slight decrease in the inclination of the VLD.


                    This was not allowed by the candle suspension - a certain spring steel dictates the number of turns of the spring and, accordingly, the course of the candle suspension does not allow to reduce the vertical dimension of the case.
                    This became possible only when switching to a torsion bar suspension.
                    1. 0
                      1 August 2019 12: 41
                      here for visualization t-43 and t44


                      how much should I reduce the VLD angle (and then thicken the armor) in order to squeeze the hatch in the same way?
                      1. +1
                        1 August 2019 13: 27
                        Quote: prodi
                        here for visualization t-43 and t44


                        how much should I reduce the VLD angle (and then thicken the armor) in order to squeeze the hatch in the same way?

                        you forget that the tower was pushed back on the T-44 because the engine was deployed across the hull. In the T-34, this is impossible to crank.
                      2. 0
                        1 August 2019 13: 32
                        he compares the t-43 and t-34, the first with the torsion bar suspension and, in his words, the reduced height of the hull. On the t-44, the hull height is really much smaller
                      3. -1
                        2 August 2019 03: 28
                        [/ quote] here's to visualize the t-43 and t44 [quote]

                        What are you comparing with? And most importantly: why? Finally, realize what I wrote to you (and what to compare with what).
                    2. 0
                      2 August 2019 03: 35
                      [/ quote] This was not allowed by the candle pendant - a certain spring steel dictates the number of turns of the spring and, accordingly, the stroke of the candle pendant does not allow to reduce the vertical dimension of the case.
                      This became possible only when switching to a torsion bar suspension. [Quote]

                      Yes, nafik. What is the height of the first candle T-34?
                  2. +1
                    1 August 2019 13: 51
                    "... There is a much simpler option - to lower the height of the hull with a simultaneous slight decrease in the inclination of the VLD ..."
                    Yes, everything is very simple ... Only crazy ...
                    1. 0
                      2 August 2019 03: 30
                      Quote: Mazuta
                      "... There is a much simpler option - to lower the height of the hull with a simultaneous slight decrease in the inclination of the VLD ..."
                      Yes, everything is very simple ... Only crazy ...

                      What exactly is crazy? What when lowering the height of the body, the roof sheet lengthens? Or, what if the inclination of the VLD decreases, the roof sheet again lengthens?
                      1. +1
                        2 August 2019 16: 26
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        What exactly is crazy? What when lowering the height of the body, the roof sheet lengthens? Or, what if the inclination of the VLD decreases, the roof sheet again lengthens?

                        The crazy thing is that there is simply not enough free space to install a full-fledged sunroof and provide rigidity to the hull, the turret’s shoulder strap is too close, and moreover, the gun’s mask is pulled forward and it’s and the cheekbones of the tower would block access to the tank through this hatch
                      2. -1
                        3 August 2019 04: 33
                        [/ quote] The crazy thing is that there is simply not enough free space to install a full-fledged sunroof and provide rigidity to the hull, the turret’s shoulder strap is too close, and moreover, the gun’s mask is pulled forward and it’s and the cheekbones of the tower would block access to the tank through this hatch [quote]

                        Those. acknowledge that lowering the height of the hull and decreasing the pitch of the VLD can extend the roof. Only quantitative indicators remain: how much it is possible to lower the hull and how much it is necessary to reduce the pitch of the VLD.
                        With stiffness even easier - put a corner (or channel) under the shoulder straps of the tower and FSE.
                        Well, of course, that the hatch is located where it can be used, and not where you want.
                      3. 0
                        3 August 2019 07: 23
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Well, of course, that the hatch is located where it can be used, and not where you want.

                        Even if you accept your version, how are you going to avoid the tower blocking these hatches?
                      4. 0
                        4 August 2019 05: 50
                        Quote: svp67
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Well, of course, that the hatch is located where it can be used, and not where you want.

                        Even if you accept your version, how are you going to avoid the tower blocking these hatches?

                        Like all tanks with sunroofs BESIDE with a tower.
                      5. 0
                        4 August 2019 09: 09
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Like all tanks with hatches on the hull roof next to the tower.

                        But in this case it is even more complicated than it was decided on tanks starting with the T-44, and even on them, there were some angles of rotation of the tower, at which the mech-water could not leave the tank through its hatch and should not forget that these tanks and the hull were wider, and most importantly the internal size across the width of the control compartment was larger; on the T-34, to the left of the fur-water, the shaft of the suspension springs was piled up, which means that the hatch would be closer to the center than on them
                      6. 0
                        5 August 2019 05: 24
                        With a nut tower, you can get out at any angle of rotation of the tower. At the shaft, you can change the slope to angles of 3-5 candles. When the hull height is lowered by 78mm and the angle of inclination of the VLD is reduced by 5gr., - it turns out 315mm of "extra" roof along the axis of the tank, to the side, naturally more. Those. the hatch is completely included.
                      7. 0
                        5 August 2019 07: 24
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        With the tower nut, you can get out at any angle of rotation of the tower.

                        That is, immediately deprive the opportunity for further modernization, and most importantly for the installation of a more powerful gun?
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        it turns out 315mm "extra" roof
                        Is this your calculation?
                      8. 0
                        6 August 2019 03: 55
                        The T-34-85 turret with the ZIS-S-53 is also "adapted" so that the hatch is placed very close to the turret.

                        [/ quote] Is this your calculation? [quote]

                        Yeah. first estimate, with a VLD thickness of 75mm. With VLD 60mm, the hole for the hatch will be larger.
                2. +1
                  1 August 2019 13: 46
                  Absolutely for sure !!!
                  Comrade above hinted and let me down in this, but here is a difficult case ... Perseverance worthy of better application (he wrote about the engine across) ...
                3. +1
                  2 August 2019 16: 22
                  Quote: DimerVladimer
                  In order to remove the driver’s hatch from the frontal sheet to the top sheet, it was necessary to shift the tower to the center of the body, and this could only be done by expanding the transmission compartment

                  This could be achieved by simply not shortening the original T-34 hull, as was done on the T-43, but lengthening it. Or completely redesign the entire structure and transfer the transmission compartment to the nose of the hull, as the Germans did on the same Panther or the Americans on the Sherman
        2. 0
          1 August 2019 14: 11
          "... And how would you be able to move the hatch with that layout and design? Enlighten ..."
          Instead of Yura, I will answer: "NO!"
          Or would gain weight (bad, useless to anyone and would ruin the whole car).
          Sorry, could not resist and got in ...
          1. 0
            2 August 2019 03: 32
            Quote: Mazuta
            "... And how would you be able to move the hatch with that layout and design? Enlighten ..."
            Instead of Yura, I will answer: "NO!"
            Or would gain weight (bad, useless to anyone and would ruin the whole car).
            Sorry, could not resist and got in ...

            It would be better if you could hold it, then your bullshit would not have to read.
            1. 0
              3 August 2019 08: 24
              And I do not force it to do ...
              But peremptory and ingenious your sayings are enough for me ...
              1. -1
                4 August 2019 05: 54
                Quote: Mazuta
                And I do not force it to do ...
                But peremptory and ingenious your sayings are enough for me ...

                There are technical objections that you can put a hatch in a longer roof, or will you continue to jabber about anything?
  2. +2
    30 July 2019 18: 22
    They wrote about the T-43 that the front rollers were overloaded, even stronger than on the original T-34 ...
    1. +2
      30 July 2019 19: 29
      Quote: DimanC
      the front rollers are overloaded

      No wonder: the new cast tower + 500 l. solariums next to the mechanical drive. fellow
      1. +2
        31 July 2019 02: 49
        Quote: Paranoid50
        No wonder: the new cast tower + 500 l. solariums next to the mechanical drive.

        Plus VLD, one and a half times pleased harder
    2. +1
      30 July 2019 21: 57
      This is probably not about the T-43, but about the modernization of the T-34 with increased frontal armor. In parallel with the development of the T-43, some of its innovations were tested on the T-34. So by the end of 1942, an experimental T-34C tank with 60mm armor, a tower and a number of nodes from the T-43 turned out. But at the same time, the mass was already 32 tons, the front rollers were really heavily overloaded, there were no reserves for modernization.
  3. +2
    30 July 2019 18: 33
    How many such unrealized projects were ... fellow But, nevertheless, most of them did not sink irrevocably into the void, either serving as an experimental platform for testing new systems and units, or they themselves were a transitional modification to more promising BT models. And, fortunately, most of these domestic samples have been preserved in the exposition of the BTT Museum in Kubinka. By the way, the 43rd was undeservedly ignored by the manufacturers of BT models. It’s even strange, considering that some have managed to "burn down" ALL German series "E", which remained on paper ("paper series"), not counting a couple of "troughs" from the E-100. request
    1. Alf
      +2
      30 July 2019 20: 33
      Quote: Paranoid50
      By the way, the 43rd turned out to be undeservedly ignored by BT model manufacturers.

      There is nothing to be surprised at. The world is still dominated by the myth of the German superweapon. The fact is that in the West the Second World War is perceived as a big get-together, and the war between Germany and the USSR is an attempt by "enlightened" Germany to "free" the unfortunate Russian people from Stalin's bloody clique.
      Most of the products of Russian model firms are exported, and who is interested in the experimental version of the T-43 or KV-13? Almost nobody. Here's the next reincarnation of Panther, Tiger or Fokke-Wulf, yes.
      1. +1
        30 July 2019 21: 20
        Quote: Alf
        and who is interested in the experimental version of the T-43 or KV-13?

        Duc, the fact of the matter is that even the Chinese comrades, who have successfully "bombed" by this time such "rarities" as the KV-2 (with the ZiS-6 cannon), IS-7, do not move (at least not yet) , KV-122 and other exclusives. And ours ... Well, by the way, "Zvezda" is trying to keep up, having even released the T-15 (Armata BMP). The modeler "cuts" the repackages of Academy and Italery (here, at least, the price tag is almost halved). The rest are domestic - "with the world in theory - the dead of the earth"By the way, nowadays the trend is that the same" Trumpeter "is already cheaper than" Zvezda "(new models) with the same quality. hi And those who filed the "paper series" (Modelcollect) did not stop there, banging a fantastic line of equipment a la "Republic of Schwarzenberg" - what could have been if Germany had not been shattered in 45. fellow Example:

        In fairness, it should be noted that they completely washed down the T-64, T-72 and T-80 lines, including the dill versions, as well as TOS-1 and TOS-1A.
        1. Alf
          0
          30 July 2019 21: 37
          Quote: Paranoid50
          In fairness, it should be noted that they also completely washed down the T-64, T-72 and T-80 lines,

          On what scale? 72nd? Not serious. You feel the power of armor in the 35th, and tanks in the 72nd are perceived as toys.
          Quote: Paranoid50
          By the way, nowadays the trend is that the same "Trumpeter" is already cheaper than "Zvezda" (new models) with the same quality.

          Well I do not know. For the sake of interest, I ran through online shopping-Trump from 2900 and up sharply. Except for the wholesale. On the other hand, Zvezdovskaya Armata is going "just for one time", prepared from old memory files, a skin, but it was not useful, cut and folded, it was even somehow suspicious, all the time waiting for a pod.
          1. 0
            30 July 2019 22: 01
            Quote: Alf
            tanks in the 72nd are perceived as toys.

            Here he is, the main show-off of "thirty-pyatnikov" (Chur, no offense laughing ) The power of the armor, the clatter of the tracks ... So, yes, in terms of detail, etc., etc., BUT ... Time, place, money ... In short, the question of choosing a scale was not raised. As for the "toys", if you have hands and skills, they are quite realistic. At the next opportunity (on the topic of an article), I will begin to spread it (it has already exceeded two hundred copies). So we have our own "sect", where, by the way, yours are called "Tsereteli's children." fellow Of course, I spoke about prices, referring to the 72nd scale even after monitoring only local stores (St. Petersburg). I do not recognize orders by mail in principle (the same cat in a bag).
            Quote: Alf
            Zvezdovskaya Armata is going "at once", prepared from old memory files, a skin, but it was not useful,

            And for "Zvezda" now it is not necessary at all, regardless of the scale. good By the way, their "Armata" also assembled for the winter, without any problems. Next in line is the T-15. Of the "obscene" manufacturers in 72, only neighbors remained (Belarusians PST, Ukrop UM and Ace, as well as Military Wheels). "Orient Express" - beyond good and evil.
            1. Alf
              +1
              30 July 2019 22: 10
              Quote: Paranoid50
              Time, place, money ...

              Money? It seems to me that the 72nd scale at prices confidently catches up with the 35th.
              Quote: Paranoid50
              Here he is, the main show-off of "thirty-pyatnikov" (Chur, no offense)

              Yes, I am a true believer, I am a "thirty-fiveyatnik"! And I'm proud of it. drinks
              1. 0
                30 July 2019 22: 20
                Quote: Alf
                The 72nd scale at prices confidently catches up with the 35th.

                Zvezda definitely does. The first issues (assembly without glue) went on and on at 400-500, but, starting with "Armata", already 900-1000. About "Dragon" generally keep quiet (there are only point acquisitions). And the same "Trumpetter", on the contrary, is getting closer to the buyer.
  4. +1
    30 July 2019 18: 55
    Andrey, thank you very much for clarifying the issue with the T-34M. I myself did not understand that these are two completely different projects, and in the literature there is such a bacchanalia on this subject.
    1. +2
      1 August 2019 10: 56
      Quote: MooH
      Andrey, thank you very much for clarifying the issue with the T-34M. I myself did not understand that these are two completely different projects, and in the literature there is such a bacchanalia on this subject.


      Then you may be interested in Maxim Kolomiets
      THIRTY-FOURTH HEIRS
      T-34M, T-43, T-34-100, T-44
      https://e-libra.ru/read/512044-nasledniki-tridcat-chetverki-t-34m-t-43-t-34-100-t-44.html
      A much more accurate and in-depth study confirmed by the TsAMO documents on this topic.
      1. 0
        1 August 2019 11: 09
        Thank you, I have not come across this book before. Of the authorities, only Baryatinsky read on this topic.
      2. -1
        3 August 2019 14: 00
        Thanks again for the book. I downloaded from Flibusta and not by reference, for some reasons it’s more convenient for me. I'm reading now. Found in her a surprising amount of facts completely unknown to me about the modernization of the T-34. So far, I have not revealed any significant contradictions with the article of the respected author, but in the book naturally much more.
  5. 0
    30 July 2019 19: 47
    Article plus. But with comments.
    First remark, By T-34M. As far as I remember, Svirin writes about 5 armored corps of this tank and 3 towers, with which building No. 183 was leaving for evacuation. So they embodied in metal. The B-5 engine is a variation of the B-2, so it could be replaced, this is not a problem.
    1. +2
      30 July 2019 20: 17
      I’ll recover - Svirin writes about 5 towers with weapons and 2 suspension buildings that left for evacuation.
      1. +2
        30 July 2019 20: 40
        Quote: Potter
        I’ll recover - Svirin writes about 5 towers with weapons and 2 suspension buildings that left for evacuation.

        Katorin and Shpakovsky give similar information!
        1. +3
          30 July 2019 23: 09
          Katorin and Shpakovsky give similar information!
          Well, if Shpakovsky himself gives similar information, then what doubt can there be ?!
      2. +2
        30 July 2019 22: 08
        So I wrote about it, didn’t I? But still - the hulls were not equipped, only the chassis without a transmission and engine and gearbox. I would not call it an embodiment in metal
        1. +2
          30 July 2019 23: 11
          only chassis without transmission and engine and gearbox
          The gearbox is an element of the transmission.
    2. +1
      31 July 2019 01: 43
      Quote: Potter
      The B-5 engine is a variation of the B-2, so it could be replaced, this is not a problem.

      At this time, even V-2 diesels were not enough, they had to put on the T-34, a tank version of the M-17 aircraft engine, from the T-28 tank.
  6. 0
    30 July 2019 22: 15
    Creating a medium tank is always a way of compromise ...

    The creation of any Product is "always a way of compromise"!
  7. +1
    30 July 2019 22: 28
    ... the same A.A. is to blame Morozov

    Well, just not "to blame"! - In such conditions, mistakes are inevitable, but they cannot be calculated in advance!
    (There is such a story .... Somewhere after the War in Moscow there was - as they say now - "black-out": the capital went out all ... Naturally, a Very Respected Commission was appointed to deal with what happened. The Commission met from the floor -years, and then issued a conclusion that the dispatcher of the Moscow energy system was to blame for everything and offered to send him to the Camps ... Stalin listened to all this and asks: "How long has your commission been waiting for?" - "Six months, comrade Stalin! "-" And how much time did that dispatcher have to take a varny decision? "-" Two seconds, Comrade Stalin. "-" Leave him alone! ")
    So with Morozov ...
  8. 0
    30 July 2019 22: 33
    Andrey, squeeze this thing!
    And here - to the finale, and in life - to a full book. It's worth it!
  9. -1
    30 July 2019 22: 51
    In my opinion, the F-34 gun was on the T-32, but the F-1 on the KV-34 (with manual locking of the lock).
    Regarding the three-man turret for the T-34. A series of articles was devoted to the history of the creation of the T-34 in the journal "Technics and Weapons". There, in particular, it was written that even at the design stage, the designers were interested in the military, which tower to make - a two- or three-seat one (with a corresponding shoulder strap). The tankers fought for a three-seater, but the top military leadership opted for a two-seater version, leaving the three-seater for "later" - for subsequent upgrades. The fallacy and shortsightedness of this decision, in fact, has been written more than once.
    1. +4
      30 July 2019 23: 24
      In my opinion, the T-34 was the F-32 gun
      On the T-34 was just the F-34, specially designed for him and designed, and on the KV-1 - the F-32.
  10. 0
    30 July 2019 23: 15
    The Panther turned into a heavy tank of highly controversial merits, the main disadvantage of which was the impossibility of its production in an amount sufficient to equip tank divisions.

    Panther was the second largest tank of the Wehrmacht.
    About 6 thousand units against 8,7 thousand T-4.
    In general, the Germans were far from the mass production of armored vehicles to us.
    1. +1
      31 July 2019 00: 32
      But we were far from German quality. At least you will not argue with this? Or you will, but it does not affect the quality, even though with this quality we still beat them.

      Thanks to Andrey, as always! hi
      1. +1
        31 July 2019 00: 38
        Yes, Andrey well done. good
        As for quality, by the end of the war the Germans had fallen, but in the middle of the war they could launch attacks after hours of marches along the front line with minimal materiel losses on the march, with the T-34 it was difficult, and due to the small resource B -2, and because of transmission problems, although, I remember, Loza wrote that the Shermans also allowed this.
        That is, the Germans compensated for the lack of armored vehicles with a quick concentration of forces in the right section.
        hi
        1. +1
          31 July 2019 00: 53
          I read, if I’m not mistaken, from A. Bolnyh, that with such a continuous production, the build quality of "thirty-fours" was very lame and less than half of the cars got from the unloading station on their own. I also read about the reliability of "Shermans" and, in my opinion, on this resource. By the way, the Germans learned a lot during the march across Poland, there they also had problems with almost a massive failure of equipment. hi
          1. +2
            31 July 2019 02: 20
            At the beginning of the war, the Germans had both quality and quantity sufficient for their plans. And the USSR had to build up the number at an accelerated pace. And in such a situation, it is extremely difficult to ensure quality. Well, at least the reappearance in the field was high and the crews brought the equipment to mind.
            1. +1
              31 July 2019 03: 19
              Quote: garri-lin
              And the USSR had to build up the number at an accelerated pace. And in such a situation, it is extremely difficult to ensure quality

              Everything is exactly the opposite ... During the war years I had to solve quality issues
              1. +1
                31 July 2019 10: 12
                First, I had to decide on the evacuation of factories. Then build up the quantity. And then they try to raise quality throughout the war. From engine life to optics transparency. But here the issue of quantity at the initial stage is of primary importance.
            2. +1
              3 August 2019 21: 31
              The Czechs only quality made their LT-35 twice superior to ours - 6000 km. I understand that few people are interested in my opinion, but I can call my uncle, he is visiting me now, but I'm afraid if he sees what they write here, he will break my computer. A man has been leading with an experience of more than 50 years, of which 20 was a taxi driver on the Volga GAZ-24, for this fifty-dollar car there was not a single foreign car which he did not drive. And so he told, the Volga walked along 2,5 MILLION km. A modern import ..... then he goes non-normative.
              1. +1
                3 August 2019 22: 29
                It's messy with your pda then. My uncle's vases of 2106 from the mid 80s passed more than a million. If you love and maintain the equipment, it meets reciprocity and reliability.
              2. 0
                3 August 2019 23: 05
                So he told, the Volga walked 2,5 MILLION km. A modern import ..... then he goes non-normative.


                Sergei, well, it's not about that. It's about the flow, especially in wartime. Have you A. Bolnyh read "Tank Wars of the XX century" and "Blitzkrieg from a bird's eye view"?
          2. +2
            31 July 2019 08: 57
            In March 1938, Pz.I tanks took part in the full house of Austria. General Guderian’s 2nd Panzer Division completed a 420-kilometer march in two days. At the same time, up to 38% of tanks failed due to lack of reliability and were left on the side of the road. After this "campaign" Guderian sharply raised the question of improving the evacuation and repair of tanks. During the occupation of the Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia in October 1938, the situation improved significantly. Panzer I and Panzer II tanks were delivered to the operational deployment zones by truck in order to somehow preserve the meager resource of tracks.

            By the war with Poland, their situation was much better.
            But the quality of the T-34 began to improve since 1943!
            And not only the T-34. Although they never reached the German one. But at the same time, you should compare those who made the equipment in the factories!
            Women and adolescents in the Third Reich did not work in tank factories.
            Unless, of course, the labor of prisoners of concentration camps was used.
      2. 0
        3 August 2019 21: 19
        Guys, I don’t understand what quality it is: Resource T-34 mod 1940-3000 km, T-34 mod 1944 th-10000 km, resource T-4 of any year -1000 km. the line can be continued.
        1. 0
          3 August 2019 21: 25
          It's about quality in-line assembly. There is only one resource on paper; in practice, everything is different. This is the difference in the build quality of our and German tanks. And you can declare any performance characteristics, no one bothers.
          1. +1
            3 August 2019 21: 40
            The resource is not someone's fantasy, it is being established by the practical race of machines. Konstantin read my post a little higher, for some reason he jumped up there the absentee opinion of my uncle about imported equipment, by the way I completely agree with him.
            1. 0
              3 August 2019 23: 18
              Sergei, it's one thing when "thirty-fours" literally hand-assembled were driven to Moscow to be shown to Stalin, and a completely different picture when driving them from the unloading station to the unit. Well, we've already talked about this, I don't want to repeat myself.
          2. 0
            3 August 2019 21: 59
            In general, Konstantin can’t be silent, your delusions amaze me - the Soviet technology was better than any European, especially German, only the Americans were serious competitors from the end of the 1930's to the end of the 1980's, in any, in the quality of mechanics, in the quality of armor and so on and so forth. I’m kind of like a doctor of those sciences, though in a different profile, but still.
            1. 0
              3 August 2019 23: 27
              Sergei, I'm not mistaken, I have three years of service in tank units behind me, and I am well aware of the build quality of vehicles at our factories. And this is in peacetime. I like that you are so rooting for our equipment, but here is a small example: my army friend, having worked as a mechanic at the North Pole (in the sense of an ice floe), received a certificate for the purchase of Moskvich 408 directly from AZLK. He came to me and stayed with me for two weeks, although he was in a hurry to go home. On a NEW car EVERY day there was some kind of malfunction. He goes to the plant, they fix it, the next day something new again. That's how I suffered with the new car. Remember how at one time the people deciphered the notorious "Quality Mark"? Here I am just about it.
              1. +3
                3 August 2019 23: 50
                Quote: Sea Cat
                Remember how at one time the people deciphered the notorious "Quality Mark"?

                Can't we better? laughing
                1. +1
                  4 August 2019 00: 07
                  Yeah, but it was. Yes, there was another joke, I can’t give it here in plain text.
                  They found something on the UN rostrum, some kind of substance. They began to check whose IT. Ours got it off by saying: "If IT were ours, then it would have a Quality Mark on it." But the anecdote is purely barracks. bully
                  1. +2
                    4 August 2019 00: 17
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    joke purely barracks

                    Horror, damn it laughing
                    1. +1
                      4 August 2019 00: 24
                      "But in verse it was beautiful." (FROM). fellow
              2. +1
                4 August 2019 16: 27
                And there’s nothing to argue about, I’ll tell a story, yes! You Konstantin, read my post, where I talked about my uncle - a taxi driver? I will continue this topic. In our city (Rostov-on-Don) in Soviet times, there were only Volga taxis in the 1970-M-21, 1980-M-24, and then February 1987 came, in the city appeared taxi-Muscovites 2140 all green, for the first time in the history of a city taxi, in three months all taxi drivers howled, I think you guess why.
                1. +1
                  4 August 2019 16: 30
                  He officially has a resource - 100 000 km, and on the Volga - taxi - 1 400 000 km. As they say in Odessa, these are two big differences.
                  1. +1
                    4 August 2019 16: 33
                    Yes, the continuation of the story - after a taxi, he drove the big boss for several years in a new Mercedes -230, I somehow asked him, well, how do you, and he: "If this rattle car passes 400 I will light a candle in the church."
                2. +2
                  4 August 2019 17: 07
                  I don’t even guess, but I just know what kind of shit the Moskvich 2140 was, but my friend Zhenya took a 408 straight from the factory, and this is an indestructible car, they still ride here and there, but the build quality is inferior. skirting boards.
                  And, yes, Sergey, how elegant you are, but still jumped off the tank theme.))) drinks
                  1. +1
                    4 August 2019 17: 23
                    Konstantin, look below.
                    1. +1
                      4 August 2019 18: 10
                      Serge hi , I watched yesterday. Honestly, I'm not talking about the "German mind", but about the quality of the assembly line of our tanks during the war, and not only.
                      That’s it, I end the debate on my part, until both of us flood for both of us. hi
                      1. +1
                        4 August 2019 18: 21
                        We agreed, see you) (there are two fresh posts below, then read).
          3. +1
            3 August 2019 22: 14
            Generally sorry Konstantin. tears me apart, without any claims to you, this is a common misconception. due to poor technical literacy. Judge for yourself. the vaunted Germanic mind makes the tank - 100 mm forehead - that's good. 80-board is also good - but one enemy anti-tank and tank will not take, 88 mm gun. the armor-piercing speed of -1200 m per second is excellent for any enemy tank to break through at any conceivable distance, but further on these supermen intellectuals put a strong gasoline engine on the 55-ton machine 650 (any average engineer will turn a finger at the temple), well. these unscrewed put the box with EIGHT gears forward and FOUR back. but as? otherwise, this freak will not budge, but this does not end superhuman oligophrenia ---- a tank with a cruising range of -90 km has a supply of shells -120 pieces, this is what a gloomy Teutonic genius thinks. but there is generally such a function - to think among the German people, men so want to call on their uncle.
            1. +1
              3 August 2019 22: 29
              I tried to get into the brain of Aders and realized .... he didn’t make a tank, he did a Long-Term Fire Point with the possibility of small movements along the front there a kilometer — a kilometer there. to get the bunker out of the targeted area.
              1. +1
                3 August 2019 23: 29
                In my opinion, Corius and Vitman were pleased with the tank, which they proved in real battles. If you, of course, meant "Tiger".
                1. +1
                  4 August 2019 16: 18
                  I completely agree with you that the tank’s tank of course the butter and even the black caviar -lafa is impenetrable, and it will break through any enemy’s tank, in the end it’s the best WWII tank for the period from September 1942 to January 1944. They even got a laf that the tank has a miserable power reserve, to gawkly come off far from its own. But now the most interesting Germans were forced to break up the heavy. tank bats on companies and distribute to different divisions. because behind each ship there was a convoy convoy of 5000 opels with spare parts and about 5000 mechanics cursing this masterpiece of German technical thought - most units are a microscopic resource, for example, a leading star is not more than 500 km, a box in general is a present for mechanics that eats more oil than a gasoline engine. Imagine a headache for the rear services.
                  1. +1
                    4 August 2019 16: 44
                    What am I telling you? You are probably a tanker or a T-55 or a T-72, most likely. You would have been on them, if you had issued an order, you would have reached Paris at one gas station, without repairs, even minor ones. You know this a thousand times better than me, but for some reason you will not get rid of Pan-Germanism, in general, Peter brought this infection from Europe, there is no way to get rid of it, it would be better if he brought Syphilis, all of us would have less problems ...
                    1. +1
                      4 August 2019 19: 04
                      "Half a five" were in training, served in the line regiment on the T-54 and I can’t say anything bad, but how many times we went out in our cars - minuscule. And I never had to shoot from my tank during my entire service, all the shooting, and even driving in training vehicles.
                      Serge hi , yes, I don’t need to get rid of "pan-Germanism", I don’t have it, I just try to be objective. After all, "pan-Rusism" is no better, in the same way objectivity is lost.
                      And about Peter and the siphon - you gave it! Thank God here without him, we coped ourselves! As it was with Sasha Pushkin: "... and a fashionable disease, it was recently presented to you by A." (C). laughing
                      1. +1
                        4 August 2019 20: 49
                        Curiously, his killer with this "fashionable disease" lived to be 92 years old, he wore it from the age of 20.
                      2. +1
                        5 August 2019 01: 17
                        God marks the assault, or, in this case, hell! am
    2. +2
      31 July 2019 03: 18
      Quote: Avior
      In general, the Germans were far from the mass production of armored vehicles to us.

      And to us before their VARIETY of armored vehicles
      1. 0
        31 July 2019 04: 05
        Well, if Beters are also credited here, then yes, the diversity went through the roof.
        1. 0
          31 July 2019 04: 15
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Well, if Beters are also credited here, then yes, the diversity went through the roof.

          You can add them too, then the number really goes off scale. But even that amount of various other equipment, this and a variety of self-propelled guns and special equipment, there were a lot
          1. 0
            31 July 2019 04: 19
            In general, it would be interesting, simply for clarity, to compare the number of different types of armored vehicles with us and with them. Here I am surprised that none of our authors set such a goal.
            1. +2
              31 July 2019 04: 26
              Quote: Sea Cat
              Here I am surprised that none of our authors set such a goal.

              What's the point? Everything is really not simple there, here are infographics dedicated to German self-propelled guns and then there is more to come ...

              1. 0
                31 July 2019 04: 30
                Yes, for sure, there is not everything here. It would be interesting to know the "riot" by the number of released "heads" of different types. How many German factories worked for this, not counting the Czechs and the rest of Europe?
                1. +1
                  31 July 2019 04: 31
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  It would be interesting to know the "riot" by the number of released "heads" of different types.

                  The work is quite hard, and there are few "interested parties"
                  1. +1
                    31 July 2019 04: 39
                    Hard, but interesting. Let's say that 200 of these cars were produced, these 2000, but these are only 2 pieces. It is interesting to consider the last two as a separate model, but to take seriously as a fighting force is not serious. Well, it will be interesting to those who are interested in this, rather than sitting out their pants on political throat. I’m wondering, I believe you also know here at least a dozen people who will be interested too. And let the rest argue from which end to break the egg.
                    1. 0
                      31 July 2019 04: 41
                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      Hard but interesting

                      Well, let's ask Andrey, he can agree. His pen is "light", his mind is "not clouded"
                      1. 0
                        31 July 2019 04: 52
                        And what a good idea, colleague. Take the trouble to persuade? If he agrees, he can make an interesting selection, he digs deeply and meticulously.
                      2. +2
                        31 July 2019 05: 01
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Take the trouble to persuade?

                        I'll try, but I don't promise. Author, a man of "great art"
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        not including Czechs and other Europe

                        But by the way, the same topic is interesting. We now know almost everything about Lend-Lease, right down to the button put to us by the allies, but hardly anyone talks about the contribution of all these "enslaved".
                      3. 0
                        31 July 2019 05: 05
                        Someone jumped in the article, and there was good information in the comments. But this is a separate big topic for a separate article. And again, who will take it? Here, after all, one pulls another. Throw a "provocation" to Andrey again? smile
                      4. 0
                        31 July 2019 05: 07
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Throw a "provocation" to Andrey again?

                        It is possible for him, and it is possible for Roman Skomorokhov, this one loves to "burn with a feather", but here it is just expanse ...
                      5. 0
                        31 July 2019 05: 43
                        Yes, Roman knows how to present the material. I read with interest his articles on Lend-Lease. Anyway, his pen is lively. In general, no matter who takes up this topic, no one will be bored. Neither authors nor readers.
                      6. 0
                        4 August 2019 08: 50
                        Or maybe about 44-ku is better, especially if they themselves are in the subject ?!
              2. 0
                31 July 2019 13: 49
                Wow !!! And what kind of self-propelled guns in the middle of the last row? In Kubinka I saw a gray one above it through a row. A very large device! And this lower cabinet is generally three-leaved. belay
                1. 0
                  31 July 2019 14: 20
                  Quote: Ural-4320
                  And what kind of self-propelled guns in the middle of the last row?

                  There is a whole series of "Jagdtigers" with various guns ... On the chassis of the "Royal Tiger"
                  1. 0
                    31 July 2019 16: 06
                    Thank! I'll go read about them.
  11. +2
    31 July 2019 07: 38
    From the point of view of armament and the thickness of the body armor, the T-34M copied the T-34, but judging by the figures, the angles of inclination of the side armor plates of the hull and turret were less than that of the "thirty-four", which gave somewhat worse protection.

    Pasholok wrote (https://warspot.ru/14044-predvoennaya-perspektiva) that for the T-34M at the Mariupol plant they tested shelling sheets of armored steel with a thickness of 50 and 60 mm., So that the armor protection should have grown.
    And he also gives a drawing of the final version of the T-34M (as of May 1941) in the context of:
  12. 0
    31 July 2019 09: 38
    a curious attempt - to seat the commander in a three-man turret on a narrow pursuit: the "nut" lengthened back, perhaps, could still work - to make the observation turret higher and put a hatch on it and, probably, make a longitudinal break in the roof descending to the gun mask to cover at least from a frontal projection. However, putting an 85mm cannon would still not work
  13. +1
    31 July 2019 11: 40
    Quote: Sea Cat
    But we were far from German quality. At least you will not argue with this? Or you will, but it does not affect the quality, even though with this quality we still beat them.

    How did you determine that we were far from German quality? The chemical composition of the armor was worse, the MTG surrendered on the 2nd day of battles, the weight of the "cats" was 50% more. What's the quality? That we are at war for a day and repair for three days? In 1943, the Soviet T-34 tank could easily make a march of 500 km and join the battle without repair. In what year could a German Panther or Tiger do the same?
    1. 0
      31 July 2019 15: 42
      I didn’t define it, and without me there are enough authorities. Read our authors, or the same Patients.

      quality? In 1943, the Soviet T-34 tank could well make a march of 500 km and enter the battle without repair.


      Do you have any single tank from the tank corps that made a march of 500 km without breakdowns? What is the number and name of the commander, such events are recorded. Yes, but where did the rest of the building go?

      march to 500km and without repair join the battle. In what year could the German Panther or the Tiger make a similar one?


      Well, after 1943, they still didn’t retreat at such a speed that they could make a 500 km long drape in a day. This is you, my friend, enough ...
  14. 0
    31 July 2019 14: 20
    In other words, the T-34 had great modernization potential, and in the T-43 it was used to strengthen the reservation and improve the ergonomics of the tank


    Not a completely correct statement - a new T-43 tank cannot be saved, it only retained the dimensions of the hull, which used T-34 elements with a complete alteration of the internal layout and a completely new suspension (!) (Since the T-43 refused a candle suspension in favor of the torsion bar) - call the modernization of the T-34.
    Only due to the torsion bar suspension, one and a half designers saved.

    The current was a change in the transmission - the tank was equipped with a new two-stage planetary rotation mechanism, similar to that installed on the IS tank.

    If only armor, a new turret and a new weapon were thrown over the hull without changing the suspension - I would agree that this is a modernization - similar to the T-34-85
  15. +2
    31 July 2019 14: 58
    Looking at the history of the T-43, we see a strange step backward in comparison with the T-34M arr. 1941 - although even before the war, the ergonomic benefits of a broad-shoulder tower were clear, for a long time they tried to install a narrow-shoulder tower on a tank, looking for original ways to “stick” a third crew member there. In the end, they came to the conclusion that it was impossible to create such a tower, returned to the tower with a wide shoulder strap, but lost time on this - it can be assumed that if the T-43 was immediately created with a "broad-shouldered" tower, then the chances to go into series at the beginning 1943 or even at the end of 1942 he would have had quite a lot.

    Nothing strange.
    T-34M was made based on the prospective capabilities of KhPZ and STZ after receiving new machines. In this case, a large running diameter would not be a problem.
    And the T-43 was originally designed based on the possibility of its production on existing equipment - because we have a war, new machines will either come, or not, the existing machines for working with large diameter shoulder straps are two pieces, and one of them is already occupied. Oh yes, it’s also impossible to reduce the production of tanks for a long time.
    So they tried in the T-43 to keep the technological developments of the T-34 to the maximum.
    1. 0
      31 July 2019 15: 40
      [/ quote] The T-34M was made based on the prospective capabilities of KhPZ and STZ after receiving new machines. In this case, a large running diameter would not be a problem. [quote]

      The T-34M turret was designed in such a way that it made it possible to process the space for the upper ring of the shoulder strap on the same machines as the T-34-76 turret (up to 100 ").
  16. 0
    31 July 2019 18: 06
    Thanks for the great stuff, Andrew!
    Since the tankers are my brothers in the factory, let me drop my five cents.
    It was not needed in 1944. T-34-85 from the word at all. Everything that the T-34 did between 1941 and 1943, and most importantly, a radical change, was paid for by the hundreds of thousands of lives of the fallen tankers. Yes, at that time there was no alternative to him. Actually similarly there was no alternative to the Pz-III in 1941.
    But after the winter campaign of 1944, it became clear that the T-34 had exhausted itself. Yes, it could be equipped with an 85 mm cannon, but he could no longer fulfill the role of an armor shield. All congenital diseases: tightness, imperfect suspension, outdated transmission, more clearly defined him as an outsider. The manufacturability of the design also has chosen all the limits.
    Meanwhile, a much more advanced machine went into production, which largely corresponded to the purpose of the main tank. I mean IS-1 and its development, IS-2.
    The solutions incorporated in its design made it possible, as they say "unstressed", to switch from the release of the T-34 to the IS.
    This would allow additionally instead of 4,5 thousand IS-2, ISU-152 and ISU-122, as well as 10,5 T-34-85 to produce about 12 thousand main tanks far superior in terms of their tactical and technical data T-34 -85.
    But self-propelled guns should be produced only on the basis of the T-34. It is desirable with a gun D-25S and D-1 in the version for self-propelled guns.
    As for the armament of the IS, starting from the D-5 by the summer of 1944, it was possible to switch to a new gun of the caliber 95 - 107 mm, but with more modest ballistics than the D-10, which ensured a sufficient rate of fire.
    At the same time, the design of the machine that became the IS-3 would be much more focused, and medium tanks would generally disappear from promising developments, giving way to the main ones.
    1. 0
      1 August 2019 04: 18
      [/ quote] The solutions incorporated in its design allowed, as they say, "unstressed" to switch from the release of the T-34 to the IS. [Quote]

      Replace one tank on the conveyor with another at the height of the war? It’s complete not real. It is competent to upgrade without changing the running gear and the motor-transmission group, with minimal alterations to the hull and replacing the tower with a new one — that could be done. But only the tower was replaced. Hence the gigantic losses.
      1. 0
        1 August 2019 10: 40
        The reverse operation was carried out at the Chelyabinsk Plant much more terrible in the summer of 1942.
        In fact, neither the engine, nor the torsion bar suspension, nor the cast / welded body (containers, rollers, etc.) were not a problem for Uralvagonzavod and Sormov. Problems could arise only in Omsk, but it was possible to make castling with Uralmash.
        I will only apologize for the "additional", of course, I should have written "instead of".
        1. 0
          2 August 2019 03: 58
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          The reverse operation was carried out at the Chelyabinsk Plant much more terrible in the summer of 1942.
          In fact, neither the engine, nor the torsion bar suspension, nor the cast / welded body (containers, rollers, etc.) were not a problem for Uralvagonzavod and Sormov. Problems could arise only in Omsk, but it was possible to make castling with Uralmash.
          I will only apologize for the "additional", of course, I should have written "instead of".

          So ChKZ produced relatively few tanks, and expected to get a lot instead of a little. But back (a lot by a bit), during the war it was not real.
          It is clear that it is better to fight on the IS-1 than on the T-34-76 / 85, but there will be few of them, especially during the transition from one tank to another.
          "Cruising" tank is also needed, in the conditions of breakthroughs after the middle of 43g.
          But, he must have bulletproof armor of the tower and forehead of the hull (with bulletproof sides). The T-34 was all bulletproof from mid-end 42g. Hence the gigantic losses.
          1. 0
            2 August 2019 10: 01
            "A little" is up to 500 pieces. per month? And the increase did not happen trivially due to the lack of unnecessary engines.
            That "real" that "not real" must be considered. I counted by weight, armament and engines. So it turns out that everywhere with a margin there is enough for 12 thousand more protected, mobile (on the ground) and technologically advanced machines than for 4,5 thousand powerfully armed and similarly protected tanks and self-propelled guns + 10,5 thousand outdated vehicles with new weapons. Given the inevitable decrease in combat losses in this case, the number of serviceable tanks and self-propelled guns in the troops would not have decreased.
            A cruising tank is ideologically not designed to withstand anti-tank weapons, PAK-40, "viper" and all self-propelled guns with 75-mm guns are deadly for the T-34-85. The same IS-85, IS-95 or IS-107 could well conduct the same raids, but with greater efficiency and lower losses.
            And the modernization of the T-34 is a necessary measure. They tried to please the leader, they say we give tanks to the front! So in 1942, Zaltsman in full drove the production of the T-60 in parallel with the T-70 for quantity. The result - the same as with the T-34-85 - corpses and wrecked cars.
            We like to make fun of the Germans, the fools started a "panther", it was necessary to drive the Pz-IV and there would be happiness! And they are also trying to heap the KWK-42 on this ancient hearse. Complete nonsense! Our PTO and tank crews clicked on the four. And she no longer had speed and weight reserve. The only successful cars based on it are Hummel and Broomber.
            That was also the fate of the T-34 - the basis for the creation of self-propelled guns.
            1. 0
              2 August 2019 10: 44
              Uh, 500pcs per month of heavy tanks? Or what?

              Of course, motors are less necessary. But the IS armor pulled at least twice as much. But the main thing is a serious restructuring of production from the T-34 to the IS. Quantity will sag strongly.
              For raids, the IS has a small power reserve.
              4,5 thousand, - for what period?

              "Pazik" fourth, late issues, was very well protected from the forehead from Russian 3 "-oks.

              And yet, the competent modernization of the T-34 made it possible to protect the tank well from one projection (frontal) and not to sink in number.
              1. 0
                2 August 2019 12: 15
                ChKZ + ChTZ = 500 units is the ISU + IS-2 in the second half of 1944. In 1942, 351 KV-1 in May. 4,5 thousand ISU + IS-2 for 1944. And in 1945 LKZ began production of ISU-122S and ISU-152.
                All this competent modernization was nonsense, the nose was heavy hopelessly, the shoulder strap did not even keep the weakened BL-1. In short - EVERYTHING. And it is also very likely in 1945 to fight against the Pershing and Comets ...
                It is necessary to put the IS on the conveyor (first 85 mm ZiS-S-53, then 95 mm with an armor-piercing projectile speed of about 900 m / s or 107 mm with a projectile speed of about 800 m / s - but always with a unitary cartridge) . About the restructuring. Sorry, I didn’t understand, except for the transmission - everything is much simpler, and the transmission is quite mastered at the head office.
                In fact, I.V. Stalin miscalculated very much, intending to end the war in the fall of 1944. Therefore, he did not go for such a radical replacement, but it was worth it. In fact, all 75-mm guns, except for the KWK-42, turned out to be offside against the main tank.
                As for the power reserve - on the highway 240 km - more than the enemy, but can be brought up to 350 km, as experience with the T-10 / T-10M shows.
                And most importantly, the serial production at the main factories made it possible, with a more focused design of the next IS-3, to create a massive main tank for the rearmament of the army.
                1. 0
                  4 August 2019 07: 02
                  [/ quote] Nonsense, all this competent modernization, the nose was heavy hopelessly, the shoulder strap even weakened BL-1 did not hold. [quote]

                  The SU-100 will have a much heavier nose and nothing, it’s somehow gone.
                  BL-1, - this one with a shortened rollback, but with DT. I have not met any complaints about the catastrophic reaction to the epaulette. In an extreme case, it is possible to make an epaulet type. LKZ until 09.05.45 collected only 5 pieces. ISU-152, i.e. it's about nothing.
                  In general, instead of 14,65 thousand T-34s, the idea is to produce 7,2 thousand IS-s not bad, but they won’t do this during the war. In addition, at first, IP production will unfold slowly, you can look at the very ChKZ: November - 25pcs, December - 40pcs, January -75, February -75, March - 100pcs. Those. the first six months, there will be a serious drawdown in the number. And this is at the factory that previously produced related KV tanks (for suspension and with close armor thickness).
                  Trance (PMP) - it has too many "extra" gears, compared to the T-34.
                  Can you imagine a 107mm unitary? In terms of character weight / length? So you can go on the go only in self-propelled guns. 85mm is quite suitable, especially since you can use a shot with the BR-365 in the IS, and not with the BR-365K grave-raid. You can increase the weight of gunpowder, the shoulder strap and suspension can easily withstand. In addition, you can book a tower well, where at least half a ton can be thrown on the forehead and another quarter ton on each side. And another ton on the cumulative screens can be launched.

                  In general, in theory: it is most realistic to transfer two plants to the IS-1 production, and the 183rd makes cruising tanks (T-34-85), whose task (together with self-propelled guns), after breaking through the TT-mi, is to capture the barrier points and wait TT pull-ups. T-34-85 are not involved in battles with organized anti-tank missions. Well, like that, with the common sense of the country's leadership, something could have happened, i.e. and the quantity is not much less and the quality is available.
                  1. 0
                    5 August 2019 11: 16
                    Do not confuse a 107 mm F-42 gun with a ZiS-6! A 107-mm unit cartridge with M-60 ballistics will pull 29,4 kg, but it will be 10 mm shorter than the unit cartridge for D-110, and 9 kg with ballistics 1C-27,7 and 155 mm shorter. 95 mm unitary shot weighing approx. 26 kg and a length of 1050 mm. All three systems provide reliable destruction of all German tanks from distances of 600 - 1500 m. Do not disregard the option with an 85 mm high-power gun.
                    Now for the release of IP: the first half of 1944 - this is just the refinement of the first version of the machine with a direct frontal part. At this time, the T-34-85 UVZ was not produced. Here is what appeared in the summer (with the exception of the guns) - and should have been introduced as MBT.
                    The main thing is the appearance of a more adequate version of the IS-3 in the spring of 1945. An impenetrable cast forehead and turret, 45 -60-mm sides, an IS-4 engine and transmissions providing highway speeds of more than 50 km / h and a completely new tank gun with manual projectile delivery and automatic feed and firing into the chamber. Do not forget about the power reserve! The main thing was not to spend money on galvanizing the T-44 and its consequences.
                    1. 0
                      6 August 2019 04: 16
                      The second half of 44g meets spruce-only ballistics M-60. But its unitary, wielding on the go, will not work out quickly (if at all). If 107mm, then only separate loading. At 107mm in the IS-2, loading will accelerate sharply, b / c will increase.

                      The second half of 44g, - it’s already late, it is necessary as in real life - the beginning of autumn 43g. Six months will pass until the factories promote the release of the new model.
      2. 0
        1 August 2019 10: 47
        As shown by the attempts of 1945, all reserves of modernization were exhausted by the summer of 1944. In addition, in 1944 the very idea of ​​a "medium" (read "cruising") tank was flawed. The first generation of main tanks, which combined the protection of the armament of a heavy tank with the mobility of a medium tank, entered the scene, or were preparing to leave.
        1. 0
          2 August 2019 04: 00
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          As shown by the attempts of 1945, all reserves of modernization were exhausted by the summer of 1944. In addition, in 1944 the very idea of ​​a "medium" (read "cruising") tank was flawed. The first generation of main tanks, which combined the protection of the armament of a heavy tank with the mobility of a medium tank, entered the scene, or were preparing to leave.

          The reserves of modernization were not exhausted, it was just necessary to competently carry it out.
  17. 0
    31 July 2019 18: 20
    I already wrote in another topic about the T-34 and repeat here.
    T-34-85 only on VLD weld 20-30mm of armor, this would make the tank heavier by 700-900kg maximum. Considering the fact that from 42 years old the tracks were transported on the VLD as a standard, there was no particular overloading of the front of the car, and if it was, it would be better in any case if the tank breaks in the rear than burns down on the front line with the crew.

    The reduced forehead thickness 45+ 20-30mm is 130-150mm, with a small heading angle you can show figs to pack 40, fours and shtugs at almost any distance.
    Aht-aht and 75mm panthers could already be kept for a kilometer, or even less.

    Leave 45 mm of the bead as is, with rational angles it is better than 20-30 mm of grooves and pieces, it is at the panther level.
  18. +1
    31 July 2019 19: 46
    Quote: demiurg
    I already wrote in another topic about the T-34 and repeat here.
    T-34-85 only on VLD weld 20-30mm of armor, this would make the tank heavier by 700-900kg maximum.

    A modification (in metal) of the T-37-85 tank with 75mm frontal armor was created (Svirin has a photo of this tank in his cycle). The military rejected the tank motivating their decision by the fact that the losses on the marches (the Red Army occurred mainly during this period) would exceed the combat losses. The pace of attack and combat losses are inversely related: the faster you advance, the less battles you wage.
  19. +3
    31 July 2019 20: 19
    Quote: Sea Cat
    I didn’t define it, and without me there are enough authorities.

    I wonder who? Nowhere did I see the qualitative superiority of German tanks as a set of weapons. The radios were cool, the Zeiss sights liked it, the guns fired accurately, but as a complex ... a big question. German tank crews squeaked with pleasure on German "cats", but also very reserved emotions of generals and technical specialists should be noted.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Do you have any single tank from the tank corps that made a march of 500 km without breakdowns?

    Example: the march of T-34 tanks on the Kursk Bulge in 1943. or the memoirs of a Soviet tanker in Prussia in 1944:
    “For example, from Jelgava, moving along East Prussia, in three days we covered more than 500 km. The T-34 withstood such marches normally, ”recalls A. K. Rodkin.


    Quote: Sea Cat
    Well, after 1943, they still didn’t retreat at such a speed that they could make a 500 km long drape in a day.

    Are you familiar with the concept of maneuver along the front? Or do you think that the tanks moved only "to" and "from" the front line. Do you have any idea about the transfer of troops from one sector of the front to another (in case of a global problem of intelligence)? It is that in a day and God forbid you will not have time - you will have to fight in the environment.
    Quote: Sea Cat
    This is you, my friend, enough ...

    Do not make yourself an idol.
  20. +3
    1 August 2019 10: 50
    the author writes
    True, the torsion bar was never installed,

    This is not true. The author did not fully understand the topic of T-43

    In detail and with details, this topic is disclosed.
    Maxim Kolomiets. "T-44 and other heirs of the thirty-four"
    Here and the T-34M and subsequent development based on documentary research.

    On July 20, 1943, the Secretary of the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, Nizhny Tagil Kolyshev sent a document to I. Stalin entitled “Report on the need for state tests and serial production of the T-43 heavy-armored tank at plant No. 183”, which stated the following:
    “According to your assignment, the tank factory developed and manufactured the first samples of the new T-43 heavy-armored tank ...
    By its nature, the T-43 is a prototype of the T-34 tank, which was dictated by the need:
    and). The maximum use of parts and components of the T-34;
    b) The rationality of the T-34 circuit, which has justified itself in operation;
    at). Preservation of production and operational skills by personnel manufacturing and operating the tank.
    The armor protection of the T-43 tank was selected from high-hardness steel 8s with a thickness of 75 mm. Such armor resists a 76-mm projectile up to a distance of 200-250 and more meters. Prior to this, the existing most powerful armor protection on the HF provided protection against dangerous injuries only at a distance of 800-1000 meters.
    The dimensions of the tank are slightly reduced, what is achieved by using a torsion bar suspension on the T-43. The following units of the T-43 tank are stored on the T-34 tank without change:
    1. Air cleaner
    2. Cooling Fan.
    The main friction clutch.
    Gearbox
    Side clutches.
    The brakes.
    Driving wheels.
    Supporting wheels.
    The wheels of a sloth.
    The main parts of the final drive.
    Driver's seat.
    Engine B2-34.
    All units of electrical equipment.
    All ball and roller bearings.
    Air launch system.
    A guard of control devices.
    Caterpillar.
    Tool and accessories.
    Radio equipment
    The number of parts on the T-43 is less than on the T-34 ... 2133 parts. The total number of normals is less by 1241 normal ...

    Thus, it can be seen from the above that while maintaining the basic tactical and technical data of the T-34 tank, the T-43 vehicle in its combat qualities is a higher-class tank, which is urgently needed by our Red Army. The complexity of the T-43 tank, according to preliminary data, is 15–20% less than the complexity of the T-34 tank. The T-43 tank is technologically and structurally designed much simpler than the T-34 tank.


    We look at the armored hull of the experimental T-43 and see flanges for mounting torsion bars and no niches for candle pendants.

    Andrey - take a closer look at the material, you use inaccurate sources.
  21. 0
    1 August 2019 11: 21
    More on the torsion bar suspension on the T-43 - already documented by the same Maxim Kolomiyets

    Field tests of the T-43 experimental tanks took place from August 2 to 25, 1943, with vehicles No. 1 and No. 2 covering 1974 and 1279 kilometers, respectively (this includes 856 kilometers of T-43 No. 1 along the route Nizhny Tagil - Sverdlovsk - Chelyabinsk). To test the machines, a special commission was appointed, the chairman of which was the Guard Colonel Kulchitsky, and the deputy chief designer of the plant No. 183 Morozov. In addition, it consisted of representatives from the GBTU KA - engineer-lieutenant colonel Kozyrev, engineer-captain Rezengard, engineer-captain Prizemov, from the NIBT test site - engineer-major Pankiin, from the main artillery department - engineer-major Demusyak, from the People’s Commissariat for Tank Industry - Senior Engineer of OGK Yurasov, as well as Deputy Chief Designer of Plant No. 183 Kucherenko, Director of Plant No. 183 Maksarev and Senior Military Representative of Plant No. 183, Engineer-Captain Goridko ...
    ... In terms of the operation of units and assemblies, it was noted that the main part of the defects “refers to a mileage of over 1000 km, and their analysis allows us to state:

    The gearbox after eliminating the defect of weak mounting of the shaft nuts under the condition of the normal heat treatment of gears and careful installation, to ensure the normal operation of the tank within 2000 km.
    Reliability of brake tapes is insufficient.
    Torsion shafts work satisfactorily and provide mileage of up to 2000 km».

    Maxim Kolomiets
    THIRTY-FOURTH HEIRS
    T-34M, T-43, T-34-100, T-44
  22. +1
    1 August 2019 11: 54
    And because I.V. Stalin was absolutely right in saying A.A. Morozov at one of the meetings about the following:
    "Comrade Morozov, you made a very good car. But today we already have a good car - the T-34. Our task now is not to make new tanks, but to enhance the fighting qualities of the T-34, to increase them release".


    :)))
    Andrew was carried away by mythology? Do not voice the source of these myths?