Military Review

Without lowering the flag. The actions of the cruiser "Emerald" in the morning and afternoon of 15 May in Tsushima

194
In the previous article, the author completed the description of the actions of the Zhemchug armored cruiser in the Russo-Japanese War - anchored in Manila, the ship remained there until the very end of the hostilities. Consider now what happened to the same type of "Emerald" to him.



Damage to the squadron battleship "Eagle"


As mentioned earlier, the night from 14 to 15 in May was relatively calm for Emerald - the cruiser was on the left traverse of the Emperor Nicholas I and, as far as can be understood from the commander’s report, did not open fire. However, no one on the ship closed his eyes, so the night turned out to be sleepless for the crew.

Joyless morning


At dawn, the Emerald team bitterly discovered that a squadron of five ships remained from the once large Russian squadron: the squadron battleships Imperator Nikolai I and Orel, the coastal defense battleships General Admiral Apraksin and Admiral Senyavin, and also of the Emerald itself. About 05.00 in the morning, this squad was approximately 100 miles from Fr. Dazhelet and continued to move to Vladivostok: at the same time, the Japanese main forces were approximately 30 miles from Fr. Dazhelet, to which they retreated in order to be in the morning between the remnants of the Russian squadron and Vladivostok.

Almost immediately, one can say, with the first rays of the sun, the Russian ships were discovered. The Japanese 6 combat detachment saw the smoke, immediately reported it to other detachments and, adding speed, went towards a rapprochement. Finding out that there are four battleships in front of him, including two coastal defenses, followed by a cruiser, the 6 group has again reported this to all the detachments and started tracking.

Of course, the other Japanese ships immediately moved to the remnants of the Russian squadron. The 5 battle squad, the ubiquitous Chin-Yen, Itsukushima, Matsushima and Hassidate, who were accompanied by the Yayayam aviso, as well as the cruisers Otova and Niitaka, were the first to arrive. It was this detachment who informed H.Togo about the discovery of the remnants of the main Russian forces tentatively in 05.00: despite the fact that the 6th detachment twice made radio news of the same, both of his radiograms on Mikas were not received. At the same time, according to the reports of the Russian officers, it turns out that the 6 combat unit went unnoticed, and the first Japanese ships that we saw on our squadron were the 5 squadron cruisers: they were to the left of the Russian battleships, the closest to them was “Emerald ".

Having discovered the smoke, as it seemed then, of a single ship, they immediately informed the Emerald about this with a signal to Rear-Admiral N.I. Nebogatov, but even before the answer was received from Emperor Nicholas I, the amount of smoke increased to four. "Emerald" and reported this to the "Nikolai", but the amount of smoke has increased again - now to seven.

In fact, discrepancies with the Japanese version of the same events begin here. According to the report of the commander of "Emerald", Baron V.N. Ferzen, one of the Japanese Suisers, such as the Suma, separated from the rest of the ships and became close with the Russians at a distance of good visibility in order to properly consider the remnants of our squadron. But the Japanese themselves do not write about this, besides, “Suma” and “Akashi” were still two-pipe, “Otova” and “Niitaka” were three-pipe, “matsushima” had only one pipe, so that they were confused at a “good distance visibility ”would be rather difficult. However, the Japanese could simply not mention this maneuver of one of their cruisers, and confusing cruisers at dawn is not that difficult.

Then on “Emerald” they saw that “Emperor Nicholas I” and “Eagle” increased the course - given that no one else describes this, it is not clear how such an illusion came about. But Baron V.N. Ferzen suggested that N.I. Nebogatov is going to give a signal "save yourself who can," that is, to break through the ability of one by one. Then "Emerald" got close to "Nikolai", and with a semaphore he asked the admiral for permission to follow Vladivostok at high speed. But N.I. Nebogatov, who was not going to do anything like that, ordered the Emerald to remain in place, so that the cruiser returned to the left traverse of the flagship battleship.

Then the rear admiral asked the battleships about the status of their artillery, the response received satisfied him, only Senyavin reported: "I have minor damage, I will soon fix it." After that N.I. Nebogatov ordered to prepare for battle and turned left, towards the Japanese cruisers. The latter did not want to take the fight and also turned away to the left. Official Japanese historiography silences this episode - again, perhaps due to its insignificance.


"Emperor Nicholas I" in the 3-Pacific squadron - still under the Russian flag


Although nowhere in the reports is not stated directly, but when the flagship N.I. Nebogatov turned on the Japanese, "Emerald" apparently moved to another side of the squadron. That is, if earlier he was on the left beam of the Emperor Nicholas I, now he has taken a position on his right beam or elsewhere, but to the right of the battleships. The point here is this. When the “Emperor Nicholas I” lay down on the same course, there was still some smoke behind the stern - perhaps it was the 6 unit. Then the Russian admiral ordered a semaphore "Emerald" to inspect the enemy ships. On the cruiser they did not understand which ones, and asked again: N.I. Nebogatov said that we are talking about the Japanese detachment to the left of the squadron. "Emerald" gave full speed and immediately went to execute the order. But according to the report of V.N. Ferzen, for this the cruiser was forced to turn, and pass under the stern of the battleship. A maneuver, completely unnecessary and even impossible, if the Emerald were on the left side of the N.I. Nebogatova, but understandable, if the cruiser was on its right side. And, again, if the squadron was going to take the battle of the left side, then, of course, it would be logical for the small cruiser to be on the starboard side, but not from the left side.

"Emerald" went to rapprochement with the Japanese detachment and, after conducting reconnaissance, quickly returned with a report: alas, the quality of reconnaissance turned out to be not so hot. Only three "matsushima" were correctly identified, but the "emeralds" reported on the presence of "Yakumo", with which, apparently, "Chin-Yen" was confused, and "Otova", "Niytaka" and the “Yayayam” memo with some then miraculously turned into "Akitsushima" and three small cruisers.


"Emerald" on the roads of Kronstadt


Reporting the composition of the enemy forces to the admiral, "Emerald" took place on the right side of the "Emperor Nicholas I". The battleships tentatively had a 12-13 junction, and the Japanese squad, seen from the stern, gradually approached. In what happened next, there is a discrepancy in Russian documents.

Meeting the main forces


Official Russian история reports that the Japanese were approaching the squadron from all sides, that Admiral X. Togo, not even seeing the Russian battleships, in 08.40, sent the 2 second combat squad forward for reconnaissance. In 09.30, the Kamimura cruisers found Russian ships on the right side of the course, respectively, at that moment they themselves were in the right shell of our squadron. Then N.I. Nebogat sent "Emerald" to explore for these new forces.

But V.N. In his report, Fersen states something else: that he was sent not to the enemy cruisers that appeared in front and to the right, but to the detachment that was catching up the Russians from the stern. Of course, the cruisers H. Kamimury could not catch up with the Russian detachment, so we can talk only about the 6 combat detachment, which consisted of the Akitsushima cruisers, Suma, Izumi and Chiyoda, probably this time was next to them.

Most likely, it was the Commander of the Emerald who made a mistake - having come close to the Japanese squad, he discovered that it consists of 4 armored and 2 armored cruisers, which is completely different from the 6 battle squad. Returning to the flagship battleship, "Emerald" reported the results of intelligence. In response, N.I. Nebogatov asked if Russian ships were still visible, and if so, which ones. On this V.N. Ferzen replied that he had not seen any Russian ships on the Emerald.

At the same time, the main forces of H. Togo — the 4 of the battleship, accompanied by “Nissin” and “Kasuga,” appeared; Ferzen in his report accurately indicates their place: between the 5-th combat detachment and the armored cruisers, which reconnoitered "Emerald", which indirectly confirms the hint expressed earlier by the author about the error in the report of his commander. After all, if V.N. Ferzen went on reconnaissance to the 6-th detachment, and took him for the armored cruisers of the Japanese, he still could not help but notice the 2-th combat detachment, which was between 1 and 6-th, and had to somehow mention in his report, like ships between armored cruisers and the main forces of Kh. Togo. Meanwhile, nothing in V.N. Fersen no.

Be that as it may, the Japanese troops surrounded the remnants of the Russian squadron.


The diagram, compiled by A.A. Alliluyev and M.A. Bogdanov, there is a small mistake: a small “Yayayam” payment advice, reaching the end of the 5-th combat detachment, mysteriously turned into a battleship “Yashima”, who died in mines near Port Arthur


There is no doubt that the spectacle of all 12 armored ships with no visible damage was a real shock for Russian sailors. It turns out that for all the time of the fierce 14 battle in May, two of our squadrons failed to not only sink, but even seriously damaged at least one battleship or an enemy armored cruiser. Alas, it was so. Russian gunners in Tsushima showed themselves quite well, the total number of Russian hits of all calibers in Japanese ships, according to Japanese data, reached 230. N. J.M. Campbell wrote further:

“In total, the Russians made 47 hits with heavy shells (from 8 to 12”), of which all but 10 or so were 12. ” This is a good result, especially considering the weather conditions of the battle and the general defeat of the Russian fleet».


But a small amount of explosives in Russian projectiles caused the Japanese not to inflict serious damage on the hit, and therefore in the morning of May 15 the remnants of the Russian squadron met the 4 battleship and 8 armored cruisers of the 1 and 2 troops. And the only visible damage on them was a shot down stubby on Mikas.

Delivery


As mentioned above, in 09.30 armored cruisers X. Kamimura established contact with Russian ships, but did not enter the battle on their own, awaiting the approach of the main forces of X. Togo. Then, when the Japanese battleships approached, the 1-th and 2-second combat detachments became close to the squadron of N.I. Nebogatov on 60 cables and opened fire on the 10.30 tentatively. From the "Eagle" the Japanese responded with fire, but "Emperor Nicholas I" lowered the stern, rear admiral and steng flags, and then raised the signals of the international code "surrounded" and "surrender." Then from the board of "Nicholas" to the rest of the ships of the squadron was transferred to a semaphore: "Surrounded by the superior forces of the enemy, forced to surrender."

Without a doubt, the Japanese really had a tremendous superiority in forces - in fact, the five Russian warships were opposed by the enemy's 5 combat units. But still there is no doubt that the decision of N.I. Nebogatov on the surrender fell indelible shame on the honor of the Russian Imperial Navy.

"Breakthrough" Emerald "


For the “Emperor Nicholas I”, the surrender signals were raised by the remaining three battleships, and on the “Emerald” he was rehearsed (apparently, on the machine), but then they realized it and lowered it. V.N. Fersen immediately ordered to assemble a team. This is how the mine foreman and N. N. M. Emerald radio telegraphist describe his commander. Sobeshkin:

“The manner of his talk is a soft baritone, a little affectionate paternal and instructive. Sometimes in the evenings, in good weather, he gathered a bunch of sailors around him on the poop around, treated them to cigarettes and lied to them without end ... The crew’s attitude towards him was not loving, but there was no particular hatred towards him. During the march, V.N. Ferzen often walked along the upper deck, hunched over and hanging his head. And now, when the team quickly built up, he seemed to be transformed and everyone was amazed at his decisive voice: “Gentlemen, officers, as well as you, brothers and sailors! I decided to break through until the Japanese ships blocked our way. The enemy does not have a single ship that would be compared in speed with our cruiser. Let's try! If you can not get away from the enemy, it is better to die with honor in battle than shamefully surrender to captivity. How do you look at it?". But everyone understood that it was not the commander’s desire to consult, but the order - “Stokers and machinists! Our salvation depends on you. I hope that the ship will develop the limit course! ”


V.N. Ferzen did everything so that "Emerald" squeezed the maximum out of their boilers and machines. Down to the boiler rooms were sent marines to help the stokers - to bring coal. The cruiser began to smoke heavily, its hull, crashing into the sea, raised waves that almost reached the upper deck of the ship. In order to facilitate the nasal tip, the anchor chains were riveted, and they, together with the anchors, went into the depths of the sea. The cruisers radio operators tried to interrupt the Japanese radio communications with amplified signals.

The course of "Emerald" is not quite clear. Official Russian and Japanese historiography say that the cruiser went east, but V.N. Fersen in the report points out: “I laid down on SO, like a course, equally diverting from the cruisers to the right and left.” SO is southeast, and most likely, the situation was such that at first “Emerald” went exactly to the southeast to go between 2 and 6 units of the Japanese, and then turned to the east. In pursuit of him, the 6 squadron cruisers went, but, of course, they could not catch up with him, and only the Akitsushima, along with the nearby Chitose, were still trying to catch up with the Russian ship. True, at the Emerald itself they were believed to be pursued not by two, but by three cruisers: the Niitaka, the Chitose and the Kasagi. The chase continued for about 3-3,5 hours, from 10.30 to 14.00, after which the Japanese cruisers, seeing that they did not catch up with the Emerald, turned back.

Was there a battle between the Emerald and the cruisers chasing it? Apparently - no, although A.A. Alliluev and M.A. Bogdanov indicates that the shells of the pursuing Japanese cruisers "barely reached" to the "Emerald". On the other hand, the description of the participation of “Pearls” and “Emerald” by these authors, unfortunately, contains many inaccuracies, so relying on them is dangerous. As for the "Emerald", then V.N. Fersen explicitly states that the 15 of May did not have to “shoot,” that is, the cruiser did not return fire, apparently beyond the range.

How fast did the Emerald break through?


In the writings of historians one can find the opinion that in those approximately 3 hours, while the cruiser was still in view of the enemy pursuing him, the speed of the Emerald reached the 24 nodes, but this is extremely doubtful. Unfortunately, Baron V.N. Fersen did not report anything about the speed of his cruiser in his report, but we have the opinions of two officers of the Emerald - the navigator officer Lieutenant Polushkin and the senior officer of the cruiser, the captain of 2 rank Patton-Fanton-de-Verrion.

The first reported that the speed of "Emerald" at the breakthrough was "around 21 knots.", But the author of this article believes this estimate is erroneous. The fact is that in the testimony of the Investigation Commission, Lieutenant Polushkin reported: "Judging by the preceding tests, Emerald could have developed 14 in May at full speed near the 21 node." This opinion is quite logical, because on trials in Kronstadt the Emerald developed 22,5 ties, but, of course, in everyday service the ship is usually unable to show the same speed as on trials, and the transition from Libava to Tsushima negatively affected the state boilers and cruiser cars. So, from this point of view, the opinion of Lieutenant Polushkin looks quite reasonable.

But with all this, the navigator officer did not take into account that the 22,5 ties, shown by Emerald in the tests, were not the speed limit of the ship: the tests themselves were not completed due to the urgency of sending the cruiser after the departed 2 of the Pacific Squadron, to form which "Emerald" was late. Thus, it is not at all possible that the maximum cruiser speed was not “near the 21 node”, but higher. At the same time, although Polushkin never says it directly, but from the reading of his testimony by the Investigation Commission there is a persistent feeling that the lieutenant reasoned as follows: “If the maximum speed of the Emerald was about 21 knots, and during the breakthrough the cruiser developed a full move, it means that at the time of the breakthrough, its speed was about 21 knots. ”

At the same time, the senior officer of the Emerald, Patton-Fanton-de-Verrión indicates that the cruiser was moving at a speed of about 21,5 knots during the breakthrough. According to the author of this article, it is this assessment that is as close as possible to the truth.

But, no matter how fast the Emerald goes, without a doubt, its breakthrough through the tightening ring of the Japanese fleet is a heroic and highly worthy act, especially against the backdrop of the actions of the Japanese admiral N. And. Nebogatov.

To be continued ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
Jewels of the Russian Imperial Navy. Pearls and Emerald
Jewels of the Russian Imperial Navy. "Pearls" and "Emerald". Design features
Jewels of the Russian Imperial Navy. "Pearls" and "Emerald". About the quality of construction
Jewels of the Russian Imperial Navy. "Pearls" and "Emerald". Libava - Madagascar
Jewels of the Russian Imperial Navy. "Pearls" and "Emerald". Madagascar - Tsushima
Why ZP Rozhdestvensky did not use the cruiser "Pearl" and "Emerald" in Tsushima for the intended purpose?
Tsushima battle. What did Z.P. Rozhdestvensky, dividing the forces into two columns?
About the tactical advantage of speed in a naval battle, or Two knots for "crossing T"
Tsushima The main forces join the battle
Tsushima battle. "Pearls" in battle
"Pearls" and "Emerald" in Tsushima. The actions of the cruisers in the day battle 14 May
Tsushima Actions armored cruisers "Pearls" and "Emerald" on the night of May 15
194 comments
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  1. Fayter2017
    Fayter2017 24 July 2019 18: 58 New
    0
    When I read Pikul about tsushima, one sheer annoyance at the incompetent command of Rozhdestvensky.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      24 July 2019 19: 32 New
      +5
      Quote: Fayter2017
      When I read Pikul about tsushima

      Pikulya? :))) This is ... not a very serious source :)))) He is great as a marine painter writer, but not at all as a historian
      1. Fayter2017
        Fayter2017 24 July 2019 19: 37 New
        0
        Well, these were school years) battles, pirates, Cossacks, Rusichs, everything was for the first time and very interesting)).
      2. AK64
        AK64 24 July 2019 20: 05 New
        -2
        Pikulya? :))) This is ... not a very serious source :)))) He is great as a marine painter writer, but not at all as a historian

        and what is great about him as a writer? He stole in the library a rare (at that time) Yegoryev’s book on the Vladivostok cruisers, and "rewrote it in the literary language" (adding to Yegoryev the "tusks of fortunes" and "young midshipman"). As a result, this is essentially plagiarism --- the Lenin Komsomol Prize and career.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          25 July 2019 06: 50 New
          +9
          Quote: AK64
          and what is great about him as a writer? Stole in the library of a rare (at that time) book of Egorev on Vladivostok cruisers

          And even if so :)))) Try to repeat :)))))
          Pikul is great because, of course, he had the gift of the word and many people I know got their interest in the fleet under the influence of his literature.
          1. AK64
            AK64 25 July 2019 11: 43 New
            +1
            And even if so :)))) Try to repeat :)))))

            Andrew,
            First of all, I am not a thief, and I can’t “repeat” it for this simple reason. Theft, and the more intellectual theft, is disgusting.
            And secondly, nobody can "repeat" at such a primitive level TODAY. You forget that other times have gone --- You and I live in an era of hyper-awareness, when ANY information is dug up in 15 minutes. Well, let it be in 30 minutes. If today someone tries to "repeat", then after 15 minutes on Tsushima there will be a message with information from where it was drawn, and a link to the original. And in an hour the whole Runet will already know about that.
            Pikul’s chips and hochmochki were possible only in a society with a complete lack of information - then there were a lot of such clever people: someone (having access to foreign literature) scribbled articles from Western magazines. someone even simpler --- wrote expositions of old and forgotten books (publishing from in very, very decent publications and magazines).

            Let’s at least not be lying to each other between ourselves --- enough of us from all the lies from the TV.

            Pikul is great because, of course, he had the gift of the word and many people I know got their interest in the fleet under the influence of his literature.

            Yeah --- "tusks of stems." Masterpiece, what. Pikul was possible only on Soviet complete lack of fish. But today to mention him ...

            By the way, Yegoryev’s book (which is already very easy to find today) was widely propagated by your humble servant about 20 years ago. Yes, sir. And I consider it my merit - Egoriev (and not Pikul) earned recognition: a lot of work was done by a person in the era before your Internet
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              25 July 2019 15: 23 New
              +3
              Quote: AK64
              Andrew,
              First of all, I am not a thief, and I can’t “repeat” it for this simple reason. Theft, and the more intellectual theft, is disgusting.

              Wait:)))))
              Quote: AK64
              By the way, the book of Egoriev (which is already very easy to find today)

              Yes, it takes my place of honor on the screw. Planning for the future cycle of Vladivostok cruisers, I intended to use it as a base one.
              Quote: AK64
              You forget that other times have gone --- You and I live in an era of hyper-awareness, when ANY information is dug out in 15 minutes. Well, let for 30 min. If today someone tries to "repeat", then through 15 minutes on Tsushima there will be a message with information from where it is drawn, and a link to the original.

              But Pikul is not drawn. He took an excellent documentary book "Operations of the Vladivostok cruisers", if I understand you correctly, and then set out the facts in the form of a work of art. Do not hit me hard, the fact is, you will laugh, but I myself read a little Pikul. "Cruisers" did not read.
              What kind of plagiarism in this case can we talk about? This is a completely different work. On the contrary, I would praise Pikul for using such a solid source. Perhaps I, of course, do not understand something, but ....
              1. AK64
                AK64 25 July 2019 17: 23 New
                0
                But Pikul didn’t. He picked up the excellent documentary, The Operations of the Vladivostok Cruisers, if I understand you correctly, and then set out the factology as a work of art.

                Well, Yegoriev is not a documentary book - it’s serious and very
                a thorough study, which I strongly recommend to everyone present for reading.

                But now bend your fingers: Yegoryev’s book was published in 1939, in a very small print run and in some third-rate publishing house. Nobody could see her. And no one knew about her. Do you understand? Pikul could steal anything - nobody would have caught his hand.

                But why did Pikul receive the Leninist Komsomol Prize and career? So it’s not for "artistic exposition" - namely, for FACT. After all, Pikul himself never mentioned Egoriev anywhere as a source !!!

                And this is theft: attributed to himself. He would never have received this award --- if those who gave it to him would know about Egoriev. Not for the “tusks of staves” Pikul was given a prize - but for the “revealed facts”. That is, the prize was awarded to Yegoriev. not Pikul.

                Pikul is generally a man .... let's just say - not simple: those circulations that he managed to get give out "access to." There were a lot of writers in the USSR, there were both good and even magnificent --- yes they published in such HUGE circulations but not all

                Do not hit me hard, the fact is that you will laugh, but I myself read Pikul a little. "Cruisers" did not read.

                And do not read! - especially since you have Egoriev. Why is it recyclable if there is an original? (A magnificent work without a doubt)

                Pikul in general ... knew how to ... "use literature": I had tears in my eyes when I read Requiem for a caravan ... But then I read the English originals. where all this was drawn from .... (What was drawn and from where it was drawn - knowledgeable people told me before that. But I was able to personally verify it already living outside 1 \ 6)

                What kind of plagiarism in this case can we talk about? This is a completely different work. On the contrary, I would praise Pikul for using such a solid source.

                If he even referred to it somewhere, at least somehow mentioned! But nowhere and in general - "there was no Egoriev!" Today everyone knows about Egoriev’s book. And in the 80s? Yes, no one knew. (Well, except for a dozen people.) And Pikul did not mention Egoriev anywhere, did not pay tribute. and if so, he stole it.
                Moreover, why did the prize fall to him? Really for the "tusks of stems"? (Already a bunch of people asked "where are the tusks on the stakes?") But no - he was given the prize precisely for "historical research" - that is, for Yegoriev.
                Yes, know those who gave the prize about Egoriev - they would not even have published that Pikul.

                But Pikul was not the only one. As an example: the school presentation of the book "50 Years in the ranks" by some kind of trash in ... azhnik ... magazine Youth: can you imagine the fee? I represent.
                But the fact is that at that time 50 years in the ranks was not reprinted and existed in an insignificant number of copies, and they did not risk anything. Well imagine: just a slightly artistic presentation of a long-existing book --- and full pockets of money.
                1. Comrade
                  Comrade 26 July 2019 04: 11 New
                  +3
                  Colleague,
                  You are mistaken about the book of Egoriev.
                  1) It was published not in “some third-rate publishing house”, but by the Military Horizon;
                  2) Egoriev’s merit is minimal, in fact this book is a slightly revised (unpublished) volume of “The Works of the Historical Commission”. He did not have time to publish in the Russian Empire, since the revolution began, and it was not before that.
                  Thus, Yegoryeva is secondary, he, I repeat, simply redid what was done, but not published, before him, even before the revolution.
                  3) Now about the supposedly "inaccessibility" and "unknown" of the book. In 1980's, anyone could pick it up by enrolling in the Leningrad scientific library, for example. In the reading room, she stood out without any restrictions. Anyone could sign up. I specifically went there, and I, as a nonresident, was given a one-day library card.
                  One could learn about the existence of the book from a number of sources, one of which is the book of R. M. Melnikov “Rurik was the first”.
                  Here is a photograph of a list of references, see N9.
                  I WRITE FROM IPHONE, PHOTO DOWNLOAD NOT SUCCESSFUL. But if in doubt in my words, open the book of Melnikov, List of used literature.
                  Let's move on.
                  The book of Rafail Mikhailovich was published in 75 000 copies, everyone who bought it found out about the existence of Yegoryev’s book, and you are talking about “ten people”.
                  1. AK64
                    AK64 26 July 2019 09: 30 New
                    0
                    To know that “somewhere there is something like that” and to see, and even more so to be able to read, are two big differences. If in order to read you need to go to Leningrad (well, or to Lenin) - this means that there are actually NO books.
                    The circulation was also, as I understand it, very small. Well, taking into account that the book was published BEFORE the war, it is precisely that "there is no book." That is, physically, it certainly is somewhere somewhere ---- but in fact it is not available.

                    About Yegoryev’s secondary nature: here I don’t know what I don’t know. But the book does not look like a collection of documents of the commission. Can you somehow confirm this? (Not that I didn’t take your word for it, but ...)

                    Update: Yeah, I see: Shcherbatov’s manuscript of 1910. Well, maybe.
              2. Trapperxnumx
                Trapperxnumx 26 July 2019 10: 08 New
                0
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Planning for the future cycle of the Vladivostok cruisers, he intended to use it as a base.

                mmmmmmmmm ........... we will wait))))
          2. not main
            not main 26 July 2019 00: 47 New
            +1
            I agree!
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Quote: AK64
            and what is great about him as a writer? Stole in the library of a rare (at that time) book of Egorev on Vladivostok cruisers

            And even if so :)))) Try to repeat :)))))
            Pikul is great because, of course, he had the gift of the word and many people I know got their interest in the fleet under the influence of his literature.

            I agree!
          3. kapitan281271
            kapitan281271 2 August 2019 15: 15 New
            0
            Andrei, Moonsund picked up you won’t believe in the 4th grade, my father saw so sarcastically smiled and meaningfully said “Well, well,” and thanks to Valentin Savvich, an unflattering love of the fleet and books woke up in me ******* **** what to do, stupid, weak because many intellectuals have been led to this by Dumas, Dreiser, Scott, but I’ve got a miserable PIKUL
      3. Catfish
        Catfish 24 July 2019 23: 27 New
        +2
        According to Pikul - yes, that's right, he is not a historian at all.
        Thank you for the story, Andrei, it is practically no different from what Novikov wrote, and I thought that you would end today with the Odyssey of the Emerald, adding something hitherto unknown. Well, we will wait for the end. Thank. hi
    2. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 24 July 2019 19: 37 New
      +1
      Three ages okini-san?
      1. Ivanchester
        Ivanchester 24 July 2019 21: 09 New
        0
        We are talking about the novel "Cruiser", as I understand it.
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 26 July 2019 11: 00 New
          0
          Quote: Ivanchester
          We are talking about the novel "Cruiser", as I understand it.

          Uh ... where's it about Tsushima?
          1. Ivanchester
            Ivanchester 27 July 2019 08: 17 New
            +2
            There is nothing about “Tsushima” in it, but AK64’s righteous anger has spilled far beyond the scope of Andrew’s article. wink
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 27 July 2019 12: 23 New
              0
              Sorry, but the question was to my colleague Fluther 2017 (I hope I didn’t misinterpret the nickname), who was talking about Pikul’s book and was indignant at the "worthless command of Rozhestvensky"
              1. Ivanchester
                Ivanchester 27 July 2019 18: 06 New
                0
                Then I also apologize - on the phone I did not understand the nuances of the branch :(
    3. Oleg Zorin
      Oleg Zorin 24 July 2019 22: 59 New
      0
      Pikul, unfortunately, is always superficial and in everything that did not concern him personally. And how could it be otherwise, releasing a novel every two years.
  2. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 24 July 2019 19: 39 New
    +3
    Well, the difference in the 0,5 node is not that big. It is unlikely that these half-nodes saved the cruiser ...
  3. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 24 July 2019 20: 15 New
    +4
    No matter how much the “Emerald” would develop, it turned out that none of the Japanese could catch up with it. The cruiser was new, despite such a long transition, the vehicles weren’t so worn out that the speed would radically differ from the design one. And although the tests were not conducted in full, the estimated 21,5 knots. were still higher than the speed of the fastest Japanese “Chitose”, which was both older in terms of “mileage” and age. So the moral of the fable is that the Emerald at this point in time was faster than the Japanese cruisers.
    And the prize for the morning of May 15 in the form of 5 ships is more weighty in rank than a cruiser of the 2nd rank, any fatter .... request
    And in order to calculate the exact speed of the Emerald, it is necessary to bring together the number of revolutions, the degree of fouling of the bottom, overload, sea condition, damage (if any). But I hope the author in the next chapter will deal with this issue repeat
    Plus hi smile
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 24 July 2019 22: 35 New
      +2
      Quote: Rurikovich
      The cruiser was new, despite such a long transition, the vehicles weren’t so worn out that the speed would radically differ from the design one.

      You apparently didn’t quite carefully read the first articles of the cycle. The speed of both "pebbles" radically differed from the design one. For example, there was an episode when Pearl could not catch up with the auxiliary cruiser, i.e. not pulled and 18 knots. This is from the words of Levitsky. Moreover, it is believed that the quality of manufacture of Emerald mechanisms was much worse than Pearls.

      So the jump of the Emerald from the environment is worthy of respect. From the cruiser squeezed out more than could be expected.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        25 July 2019 06: 51 New
        +4
        Quote: Saxahorse
        For example, there was an episode when the Pearl could not catch up with the auxiliary cruiser, i.e. did not draw and 18 nodes.

        Forgot to add "made-up Saxahorse"
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 25 July 2019 22: 52 New
          +1
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Forgot to add "made-up Saxahorse"

          Then add Khromov to the accomplices. laughing
  4. Comrade
    Comrade 24 July 2019 20: 51 New
    +6
    Dear Andrew,
    Problems with the operating system of my computer deprived your humble servant of the opportunity to lay out here as a graphic image of the departure of the Emerald from the Japanese, as well as several other schemes from the combat reports of the Japanese commanders.
    I am writing from memory from an iPhone, so I will have to limit myself to only brief information on the merits.
    -According to Japanese data, Suma did not advance towards the Emerald.
    “The Akitsushima was chasing the Emerald at a speed of about 12-14 knots.” less than half an hour.
    - “Kasagi”, not seeing the “Emerald”, walked in the direction that the “Emerald” was racing, a little over two hours at an average speed of 17-18 knots, after which it made a sharp turn and went in the opposite direction.
    “None of the two Japanese Emerald cruisers opened fire.”
    1. Comrade
      Comrade 24 July 2019 21: 55 New
      +5
      I apologize, in two comments mechanically wrote “Kasagi” instead of “Chitose”.
    2. Andrey Shmelev
      Andrey Shmelev 24 July 2019 23: 33 New
      +1
      deprived your humble servant of the opportunity to lay out here as a graphic image of the departure of the Emerald from the Japanese


      Good evening, dear colleague!

      well, please, there will be an opportunity - throw, from childhood I wanted to see, damn interesting
  5. Comrade
    Comrade 24 July 2019 21: 11 New
    +3
    Japanese data allow us to conclude that Fersen's inappropriate behavior, since the only one of the cruisers chasing him - Akitsushima - fell behind quite quickly.
    “Kasagi” from “Emerald” could not be seen at all, because, as follows from the combat report of this Japanese cruiser, the Japanese themselves could only see the smoke of our cruiser.
    Thus, the suspiciousness and alarmism of the commander of the Emerald killed the cruiser. He did not need to keep such a high speed, burning precious coal, because there was no one around to see from whom he had to run.
    This follows from the laying of courses attached to the combat reports of several Japanese cruisers.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 24 July 2019 23: 37 New
      +13
      Regarding alarmism. I would beware of such categorical statements regarding the commander of the Emerald. A long and exhausting transition of the squadron, the hassle of a sleepless night battle, the obvious rout of his squadron, and the completely intact enemy, and four Russian battleships who surrendered right before his eyes ... It was fit to shoot a hysteric and alarmist right on the bridge, and von Fersen ordered to break through and broke through!
      Now it’s easy to judge and label, and for a moment, imagine yourself in its place.
      1. Comrade
        Comrade 24 July 2019 23: 54 New
        +3
        Dear Sea Cat,
        In essence, it’s hard to disagree with you, we are all living people with our weaknesses.
        But it’s still hard to understand Ferzen, who was driving the “Emerald” at such high speed for several hours in a row despite the fact that after half an hour the chase was lagging behind.
        And “Chitose” signalmen of “Emerald” could not see at all, at best smoke. The difference is at least two knots in speed, while our cruiser had a serious head start.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 25 July 2019 00: 01 New
          +6
          Dear Comrade,
          what can be said here, we did not stand with the baron together on the bridge. And the fact of the breakthrough itself, and even against the background of the surrender of Nebogatov, he says a lot. And then ... "The fate of the turkey, the life of a penny ..." I hope Andrei still "digs out" something new for this story. hi
        2. Oleg Zorin
          Oleg Zorin 25 July 2019 12: 06 New
          0
          Nerves, dear Comrade, these are nerves. Fersen suffered tremendous stress.
      2. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 25 July 2019 00: 13 New
        +3
        The fog of war is present in every battle.
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      25 July 2019 06: 57 New
      +5
      Quote: Comrade
      Thus, the suspiciousness and anxiety of the commander of the Emerald

      You are strong, dear Valentine :)))))
      Quote: Comrade
      But it’s still hard to understand Ferzen, who was driving the “Emerald” at such high speed for several hours in a row despite the fact that after half an hour the chase was lagging behind.

      Just the opposite - very easy. But I think that it will be right in the analysis to push off from the maneuvering schemes (I approximately assume that there will be, but still). How do you think, dear colleague, can you put them on this, or next week? I could easily hold the next publication, so to speak, until I found out :))))
      1. Comrade
        Comrade 25 July 2019 13: 25 New
        +3
        Dear Andrew,
        As soon as the computer is in order, I'll let you know right away. We are all relaxed and lazy, everything is done extremely slowly and carelessly.
        It seems to the local that everything is fine, but to Soviet people such irresponsibility hurts the eye.
        I hope that it will be possible to meet the deadlines of about ten days, and also that the information on the hard drives has not been affected.
        1. Captain45
          Captain45 26 July 2019 15: 41 New
          +1
          Quote: Comrade
          We are all relaxed and lazy, everything is done extremely slowly and carelessly.
          It seems to the local that everything is fine, but to Soviet people such irresponsibility hurts the eye.

          Oh, as I understand you, colleague! One can sometimes say that he himself is enraged by this kind of siesta relaxation, especially in official state institutions. Sometimes I feel like it ........ angry
  6. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 24 July 2019 22: 29 New
    +2
    In the diagram drawn up by A.A. Alliluyev and M.A. Bogdanov, there is a small error:

    Alliluyev’s scheme is generally a bit strange. On it, for example, one of the armored cruisers at Kamimura is missing. Together with Togo's squad, there are eleven of them all for some reason.

    It turns out that for the entire time of the fierce battle of May 14, our two squadrons did not succeed not only in sinking, but even seriously damaging at least one enemy battleship or armored cruiser. Alas, that was so. Russian gunners in Tsushima showed themselves very well

    The Russian gunners under Tsushima showed themselves very poorly! Even in an approximately equal situation, the number of hits is 4-5 times less than that of the Japanese. This is one of the important reasons for the defeat of the RI fleet, the second. The first and main in my opinion is the extremely low level of the senior command staff of the Republic of Ingushetia.

    But a small number of explosives in Russian shells led to the fact that when hit, they did not cause serious damage to the Japanese

    Not certainly in that way. Damage caused by the same Russian shells was quite serious. It is interesting, by the way, that the victims who fell to one Russian shell hit more than one Japanese. In memory of something 3.8 against 2.5 people. In general, both sides had some problems with the shells.

    But, no matter how fast the Emerald goes, without a doubt, its breakthrough through the contracting ring of the Japanese fleet is a heroic and highly worthy act

    I totally agree with you! Almost the entire campaign Emerald did not climb out of the repairs of its pipes, boilers and mechanisms. However, Fersen, unlike some of Andrei’s other heroes, didn’t even think to lift his paws up and tried to do everything possible to at least get away from the enemy. There is luck of course, just after 3.5 hours, exactly at the moment when the Japanese turned back, finally one of the sick Emerald pipelines burst and the cruiser sharply reduced speed. However, the fact of a stubborn struggle was rewarded. Let a small but still victory in this episode.
    1. Andrey Shmelev
      Andrey Shmelev 24 July 2019 23: 34 New
      0
      But, no matter how fast the Emerald goes, without any doubt, its breakthrough through the contracting ring of the Japanese fleet is a heroic and highly worthy act, especially against the background


      yes, those same 9 nodes;)
  7. mmaxx
    mmaxx 25 July 2019 01: 54 New
    +2
    Is there any evidence that the Emerald team brought out a ship's journal? Otherwise, there is an opinion about the mess in the service. As if nothing was recorded. All data on the memory of officers. I mean courses, speeds.
  8. rytik32
    rytik32 25 July 2019 09: 35 New
    +2
    Quote: Saxahorse
    The Russian gunners under Tsushima showed themselves very poorly! Even in an approximately equal situation, the number of hits is 4-5 times less than that of the Japanese. This is one of the important reasons for the defeat of the RI fleet, the second. The first and main in my opinion is the extremely low level of the senior command staff of the Republic of Ingushetia.

    Exactly!
    Rozhestvensky’s refusal from active reconnaissance, from increasing speed (even in this article, Andrei speaks about 12-13 knots), from active maneuvering - this is all the reason No. 1.
    1. AK64
      AK64 25 July 2019 11: 58 New
      +1
      Exactly!
      Rozhestvensky’s refusal from active reconnaissance, from increasing speed (even in this article, Andrei speaks about 12-13 knots), from active maneuvering - this is all the reason No. 1.


      one more.... :(

      Maybe you should read ALL the comments for at least this series of articles? To understand WHY it was so, and couldn’t be otherwise?
      1. Andrey Shmelev
        Andrey Shmelev 25 July 2019 18: 32 New
        +1
        read ALL comments at least for this series of articles? To understand why this was so, and could not be otherwise


        so it’s clear how the commission of inquiry wrote “the unsuccessful choice of the squadron commander”, what else to discuss

        nobody attempted to attempt to reduce the maximum possible speed below 13 knots in my memory with sources

        But ... stop arguing!

        Good evening!
        1. AK64
          AK64 25 July 2019 19: 25 New
          +1
          It’s clear how the commission of inquiry wrote “the unsuccessful choice of the squadron commander”, what else to discuss

          I think this is fiction.
          But even if we assume that such a document existed, then we should ask the gentlemen who composed it, “and what you scoundrels did not go yourself?”
          It is possible and simpler: WHO should be appointed as the chief? Name, position? And why didn't this man volunteer?

          Nebogatova had to by scratching, by hook or by crook, literally. Well, WHAT from Nebogatov the squadron commander? WHERE were the admirals when the squadron was going?

          In general, the gentlemen who wrote this should immediately be dismissed from service without the right to wear their uniforms and benefits - for meanness.

          nobody attempted to attempt to reduce the maximum possible speed below 13 knots in my memory with sources

          Yeah ... That's just Nebogatov even at 9 nodes behind. (That's what I'm silent about transport --- for which 9 knots meant a death sentence)

          But ... stop arguing!

          Good evening!

          I (we) have long been saying to you: "stop arguing!"
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 25 July 2019 23: 09 New
            +2
            Quote: AK64
            It is possible and simpler: WHO should be appointed as the chief? Name, position? And why didn't this man volunteer?

            Are you the troll or just love to reason without knowing anything?

            Skrydlov for example volunteered. Actually, his letter launched the expedited sending of the 2nd TOE. But Rozhdestvensky hastened to push him away, hoping to arrive in Port Arthur all in white, the savior of the besieged fleet. But when he suddenly found out about the fall of Port Arthur and the death of the 1st TOE, your beloved Admiral outbuilding panicked. And Peter literally fell asleep with letters of resignation. Unfortunately, the squadron was not lucky. His resignation to Vladivostok was not accepted, forced to lead the squadron wherever it took.
            1. AK64
              AK64 26 July 2019 09: 47 New
              +2
              Skrydlov for example volunteered. Actually, his letter launched the expedited sending of the 2nd TOE.

              And is it nothing that Skrydlov was appointed commander of the Pacific Fleet on April 1 and left for Vladik? Where he was already in May. In PA, the squadron, somehow did not break (although there were options)

              2TOE headquarters was formed in early April, too - when Skrydlov was on the train. And Rozhdestvensky was appointed commander. Change the commander for no apparent reason ....

              And why is Skrydlov better than Rozhdestvensky?
              How many times Skrydlov went to sea from Vladik? Yes, and in PA, too, was not much eager ....
              I would like Skrydlov - and would go with the Christmas commander of the 2nd detachment.
              1. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 26 July 2019 21: 48 New
                +3
                Quote: AK64
                And is it nothing that Skrydlov was appointed commander of the Pacific Fleet on April 1 and left for Vladik?

                Those. still troll ??

                For those "who are in the tank" again .. slowly .. I repeat: Skrydlov was the initiator of sending the 2nd TOE. And of course he asked the commander to appoint himself. Rozhdestvensky, taking advantage of his position at court, Skrydlova successfully pushed aside. Do you even know that the wing-admiral is not a naval rank but a purely court rank?
          2. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 26 July 2019 17: 23 New
            +1
            I'll start from the end:

            Nebogatov even at 9 nodes behind


            for some reason, it went normally at night, but there are many explanations for the breaks in the squadron, for example: unexpected flagship maneuvering)

            the gentlemen who wrote this should immediately be dismissed from service without the right to wear their uniforms and allowances - for meanness


            they were told, IMHO, the autocrat to smear, they tried

            And why didn't this man volunteer?


            I’d personally be afraid, not because I’m a coward, but because I don’t
            and would suggest other, much more reasonable plans

            why did the ZPR volunteer?
            1. AK64
              AK64 26 July 2019 18: 20 New
              +1
              for some reason, it went normally at night, but there are many explanations for the breaks in the squadron, for example: unexpected flagship maneuvering)

              Is it at the end of the column yes "unexpected"? Oh well.

              they were told, IMHO, the autocrat to smear, they tried

              This ancient document contains MODERN vocabulary. Moreover, expressions that THEN were not used at all.
              The conclusion is obvious to me.

              why did the ZPR volunteer?

              Because he volunteered on MARCH.
              IN MARCH. Charles!

              There is some difference between March and October, do not you think?

              And in October, he, even understanding the prospects, could not refuse - this is not possible.
              1. Saxahorse
                Saxahorse 26 July 2019 22: 03 New
                +4
                Quote: AK64
                Because he volunteered on MARCH.
                IN MARCH. Charles!

                Whether lying or confused. I tend to believe that the first :)

                The final decision to prepare the squadron was made after the death of Vice Admiral S.O. Makarova March 31/1904


                It is known that one of the inspirers of the enterprise was Vice Admiral N.I., appointed on April 2/15 to replace Makarov. Skrydlov. He formulated the main ideas in the all-present report on April 8/21 (the document is dated in the MGS work, in fact the report apparently took place already on April 5/18) and in the explanatory note to the report of April 12/25. Excerpts from these texts can be found in the sixth volume of Russian officialdom (pp. 4-6) and in Klado’s pamphlet “After the departure of the Second Squadron of the Pacific Ocean” (pp. 85-88).


                ... appointments of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky commander of the 2nd squadron (it happened on April 19 / May 2, 1904, simultaneously with the appointment of P.A. Bezobrazov to the post of commander of the 1st squadron).
              2. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 27 July 2019 00: 02 New
                +2
                Is it at the end of the column yes "unexpected"? Oh well.


                And Nitsche so that even Togo from Kamimur lost each other? )

                In this ancient document


                I have my own personal forensic expert linguist: I'll give it back - I'll show you, everything is ok
                vocabulary just the beginning of the 20th century

                IN MARCH. Charles!


                but what was there to command in March? the Oslyabyev it recalls to the Baltic? )
                Threat. Saxahorse, IMHO, right)
                1. The comment was deleted.
  9. Oleg Zorin
    Oleg Zorin 25 July 2019 12: 02 New
    +1
    Thank you Andrey! I enjoyed reading the articles in this series. Articles on the history of the fleet are very interesting and informative.
  10. rytik32
    rytik32 25 July 2019 15: 21 New
    +5
    Quote: AK64
    Maybe you should read ALL the comments for at least this series of articles? To understand WHY it was so, and couldn’t be otherwise?

    I carefully read the entire series of articles. Many thanks to Andrei for the work done. But I do not agree with all his arguments. I also read comments, well, maybe I missed something.
    Dear Andrey, the forum is a place for discussion. And if you do not want to have a discussion ... behave respectfully.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 25 July 2019 15: 40 New
      +1
      Dear Andrey, the forum is a place for discussion. And if you do not want to have a discussion ... behave respectfully.


      I subscribe to every word. "Guys let's be friends!" (WITH). From the unforgettable Cat Leopold. smile
    2. AK64
      AK64 25 July 2019 17: 34 New
      +2
      a forum is a place for discussion. And if you do not want to have a discussion ... behave respectfully.


      The fact is that if you look at things soberly and seriously, then .... Rozhdestvensky acted absolutely correctly. There is nothing to blame him. He could not increase speed. And he did not need any intelligence - he did not look for the Japanese, he did not need them. But he also could not evade the narrowness of the Tsushima Strait from the Japanese scouts. Hence the conclusion: "active intelligence" in his situation is at least pointless. (What he said in court). And at the maximum - it is harmful

      Rozhdestvensky acted quite competently and correctly, within the framework of the representations and data available to him. With that, yes ---- he could have acted even better. Yes, he could. But Rozhdestvensky did NOT make ANY obvious mistakes. "Better" --- it would have to be a genius and visionaries, and read Toga’s thoughts. In the framework of realism: all of Rozhdestvensky’s actions are at least completely justified.

      But in hindsight ... in hindsight even I can offer better maneuvers for the Russians: in hindsight we are all smart .. I believe that if Rozhdestvensky had normal shells, then he would have gone to Vladik.
      1. anzar
        anzar 25 July 2019 22: 20 New
        +1
        AK64 ... even in hindsight and i can offer for Russians better maneuvering

        This is already interesting. Suggest, though in a few words, think.
        ... have normal shells at Rozhdestvensky ...

        Why weren’t you? After all, he is an artilleryman, he knew that the shells did not pass the test. Jessen's report should have been read at the end of 1904 ...
        1. AK64
          AK64 26 July 2019 09: 52 New
          +1
          This is already interesting. Suggest, though in a few words, think.

          For example, turn 8 points LEFT at 13.50 (or so - too lazy to look for the exact time - but then when Togo’s intentions became obvious), and full speed around Togo’s loop, with the tail of his column being cut.

          Why weren’t you? After all, he is an artilleryman, he knew that the shells did not pass the test. Jessen's report should have been read at the end of 1904 ...

          25 again? Will we chew this urine endlessly? Do you repeat the same thing 100 times?

          And is it nothing that Rozhdestvensky was at sea at that moment? And what could he change at sea? Go on the road to America and buy TNT, or what?

          The sailors demanded the tests of shells constantly before the war - and they constantly answered "we won’t give money!" Rozhdestvensky at his own expense should have organized the tests?

          Why does your party bring down ONE man all sins? Even those that are obviously OUTSIDE his competence?
          1. anzar
            anzar 26 July 2019 11: 06 New
            0
            For example, turning 8 points LEFT at 13.50 (or so ...

            ++ Yes, I thought so. I tried this in one alternative where 2 squads maneuver separately, then moving away the other way around ... But without the "shells" this is not enough (although it will be better) See one of the pictures

            Why does your party bring down ONE man all sins?

            What is “mine”?))) Some probably because he is the commander (i.e., extreme))) But yes, he didn’t stand out from the general level of the swamp (even a little higher in something). Others probably do not like the unconditional protection of his actions and inaction such as “what he could do” and “he could think ...))
            and they were constantly told "we won’t give money!"

            No, not so, the resolution says that it makes no sense as the shells are ALREADY fired. Type anyway what, there will be no others! Ie a checkmark in the document on availability is more important than real. R. is not at all a mute frog from this swamp, especially after his appointment as commander of 2ToE.
            1. AK64
              AK64 26 July 2019 11: 29 New
              0
              I tried this in one alternative where 2 squads maneuver separately, then moving away, on the contrary ...

              No TWO --- Russian complex could not. Even one column could give a good result.

              Eto what "mine"?)))

              "Yours" - plural

              Some probably because he is the commander (i.e. extreme)))

              A person can only be responsible for his level of competence. For example, if there is no gunpowder --- then the claim is not to the commandant of the fortress.

              No, not so, the resolution says that it makes no sense as the shells are ALREADY fired.

              As far as I know, the topic of the need for testing was raised more than once
          2. Trapperxnumx
            Trapperxnumx 26 July 2019 11: 06 New
            0
            Quote: AK64
            And is it nothing that Rozhdestvensky was at sea at that moment?

            Well, I would ask for a throw on vatsap or soap .... then problems))))))
            1. anzar
              anzar 26 July 2019 13: 50 New
              +1
              Well, I would ask to throw off whatsap ...

              Of course, as I requested the resignation, but received the order to “take possession of the sea”)) 3 months in Madagascar is not a joke, you can even marry))
      2. rytik32
        rytik32 26 July 2019 09: 32 New
        +3
        Quote: AK64
        The fact is that if you look at things soberly and seriously, then .... Rozhdestvensky acted absolutely correctly. There is nothing to blame him. He could not increase speed. And he did not need any intelligence - he did not look for the Japanese, he did not need them. But he also could not evade the narrowness of the Tsushima Strait from the Japanese scouts. Hence the conclusion: "active intelligence" in his situation is at least pointless. (What he said in court). And at the maximum - it is harmful

        Everyone understands that the speed of 9 knots was chosen due to the fact that the "transports" (in the broad sense of the word) could not give more.
        Now we will deal with these transports. There were 2 hospital ships, 2 tugboats, 1 floating workshop and 3 transport vehicles carrying coal, spare parts, shells, mines, explosives, etc. in the squadron for battle. I am not going to discuss the importance of the passage of these ships to Vladivostok. If Rozhdestvensky did not let them go in Shanghai, then he considered it important.
        The question is, how did Rozhdestvensky plan to defend them with battle? The main forces are fighting 12 by 12, cruisers are protected by transports. But the Japanese have many times stronger auxiliary forces, consisting of "old men" and light cruisers. Our cruisers will not be able to protect transports in any way, even theoretically.
        What was Rozhdestvensky hoping for? For good luck?
        For me, this once again confirms the inadequacy of Rozhdestvensky.
        It was much more logical to send these transports around Japan, to break through quietly. And it is desirable that they pass Japan before the breakthrough of the main forces. In support, they had to single out Don and Monomakh (too weak for battle in the squadron), as well as Svetlana, Almaz and Ural, which were not intended for combat at all. With such protection, it would be possible to withstand a battle with 2-3 light Japanese cruisers.
        1. AK64
          AK64 26 July 2019 10: 31 New
          +1
          Everyone understands that the speed of 9 knots was chosen due to the fact that the "transports" (in the broad sense of the word) could not give more.

          Nebogatov even at 9 nodes ... behind.
          (I think he would have lagged behind at 6 nodes too --- but Rozhdestvensky believed that the reason was technical!)
          Could Nebogatov keep 11 knots not an hour, but constantly?

          At the same time, note that Rozhdestvensky did not ask for these self-propelled at all, which is in 3-1 TOE. He was not delighted with them at all - he simply ran away from them. But....

          So your further considerations can not be read, right? Well, since you forgot about Nebogatov?
          1. rytik32
            rytik32 26 July 2019 10: 45 New
            +1
            Quote: AK64
            Could Nebogatov keep 11 knots not an hour, but constantly?

            Read https://topwar.ru/77952-mify-cusimy-postskriptum.html
            testimony of midshipman Baron G. Ungern-Sternberg ("Nicholas I"):
            At night, we walked from 11½ to 12½ nodes, having a course of NO 23 °.
            So the answer is: “could”
            1. AK64
              AK64 26 July 2019 11: 31 New
              -1
              Read https://topwar.ru/77952-mify-cusimy-postskriptum.html
              testimony of midshipman Baron G. Ungern-Sternberg ("Nicholas I"):
              At night, we walked from 11½ to 12½ nodes, having a course of NO 23 °.
              So the answer is: “could”


              We have a fact: in battle, even behind 9 knots.
              (and I noticed that I would be behind by 6 --- but Rozhdestvensky had to consider that it was natural - technical)
              1. rytik32
                rytik32 26 July 2019 11: 57 New
                +1
                Quote: AK64
                and I noticed that I would be behind by 6 --- but Rozhdestvensky had to consider that it was natural - technical

                Rozhdestvensky did not even give the squadron an order to develop 11 knots - this is the speed at which he planned to fight (see the testimonies of Nebogatov and Sergeyev). And all this for a long time that same "backlog."
                1. AK64
                  AK64 26 July 2019 12: 47 New
                  0
                  Nebogatov lagged behind from the very beginning.

                  Given that the Japanese easily make 15, is there a difference between 9 and 11?
                  13 would be a difference (from 9) --- but by 13 Rozhestvensky would lose half of his ships to the stragglers.

                  Christmas, apparently, believed --- and not without reason --- that he could fight off artillery. But for this he should have kept the squadron compact.

                  The idea of ​​fighting off artillery was vicious. But from the experience of the battle on August 10 this conclusion did not follow (in fact, it should, but only with a very detailed analysis that Rozhdestvensky could not make)
                  1. rytik32
                    rytik32 26 July 2019 12: 56 New
                    +3
                    Quote: AK64
                    Nebogatov lagged behind from the very beginning.

                    Proofs in the studio.
                    Quote: AK64
                    but at 13 Rozhdestvensky would have lost half of his ships to the stragglers.

                    Verbally.
                    Quote: AK64
                    Rozhdestvensky, apparently, thought --- and not without reason --- that he could fight off artillery

                    The experience of the battle in the Yellow Sea showed that for several hours of the battle 4 of our battleships (i.e. 2/3 !!!) lost the opportunity to continue moving to Vladivostok. For details https://topwar.ru/104474-boy-v-zheltom-more-28-iyulya-1904-g-chast-12-otstuplenie-knyazya-uhtomskogo.html
                    Christmas would have to fight much longer, not even one day.
                    And I ask you to answer, how did Rozhestvensky plan to protect transports?
                    1. AK64
                      AK64 26 July 2019 13: 16 New
                      -3
                      You will excuse me for being straightforward, but I do not like talking with loud and even just hysterical young people.
                      If there are reasons --- well, bring it, we will listen. And screams .... screams for school friends.
                      1. Saxahorse
                        Saxahorse 26 July 2019 22: 17 New
                        +2
                        Quote: AK64
                        I don’t like talking to loud and even hysterical young people.

                        Recently, you have become very similar to Andrei's favorite character - Kolya "Passerby" negative
                      2. Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey Shmelev 27 July 2019 12: 31 New
                        +1
                        Not true) Kolya knows much better laughing
    3. rytik32
      rytik32 26 July 2019 09: 35 New
      +2
      Quote: AK64
      if Rozhdestvensky had normal shells, then he would have gone to Vladik.

      And if the Japanese had normal shells?
      If they had not exploded in the trunks and cellars?
      1. AK64
        AK64 26 July 2019 10: 38 New
        0
        And if the Japanese had normal shells?
        If they had not exploded in the trunks and cellars?


        Japanese shells worked nominally. That is, as it should be.
        Moreover, the Japanese updated their arsenals in front of Tsushima (the notorious "suitcases" with an increased content of explosives)

        Russian shells, those on Borodintsy, did not work properly (that is, as follows from the performance characteristics).

        I do not ask for shells from the 21st century, with hexagen and a radio fuse. It is only about the standard operation of shells arr. 1892.

        That shells with the 3rd TOE fired more or less regularly --- and it is these hits that give an example of the effectiveness of Russian artillery. But the Borodino shells did not explode, and even in comparison with the smaller (yes just small) BWO shells, they did not produce an effect.

        The most dramatic hits in the Japanese, by effect, are a few hits from the 3rd TOE.
        And why is it so ????
        1. rytik32
          rytik32 26 July 2019 10: 53 New
          +1
          Quote: AK64
          Japanese shells worked normally. That is, as it should be.

          And the fact that the Nissin trunks tore?
          And the fact that the battleships fired the GK rarely, because were afraid that the shells would explode in the trunks due to overheating?
          1. AK64
            AK64 26 July 2019 11: 05 New
            +1
            And the fact that the Nissin trunks tore?

            Normal operation of a poor Japanese shimoza. (They didn’t have the best quality - but it was "according to the state")
            And the fact that the battleships fired the GK rarely, because were afraid that the shells would explode in the trunks due to overheating?

            And how is it that they rarely shot precisely because of this?
            Yes, and "rarely" - is that how? With numbers if? For example, in comparison with the battle of August 10th?
            1. rytik32
              rytik32 26 July 2019 11: 32 New
              +2
              Quote: AK64
              And how is it that they rarely shot precisely because of this?

              The Japanese investigated the ruptures of trunks during the battle in the Yellow Sea. From Pekingham's report:
              "Arsenal workers attribute this damage not to shell defects, but to the fact that the charges were placed in a gun that was significantly overheated by continuous firing, and recommend that after about 20 shots fired at a fast pace, the guns should be cooled with water from the hose, starting from the inside These workers say that the temperature of the gun changed the rate of burning of the charge, thereby significantly increasing the rate of increase in pressure, and that this exceeded the allowable parameters that the shells could withstand to ’or the bottom fuses were blown in, and the explosive constituting the explosive charge was ignited under conditions of temperature and pressure, which made its rate of combustion almost produce a detonation effect."
              Quote: AK64
              Yes, and "rarely" - is that how? With numbers if? For example, in comparison with the battle of August 10th?

              https://topwar.ru/141824-razmyshleniya-ob-effektivnosti-yaponskoy-srednekalibernoy-artillerii-v-cusime.html
      2. anzar
        anzar 26 July 2019 11: 12 New
        +3
        And if the Japanese had normal shells?

        It’s also nice, I wouldn’t have to surrender to Nebogatov, would have drowned everyone yesterday)))
  • Alexandra
    Alexandra 25 July 2019 21: 11 New
    +3
    Quote: AK64
    I believe that if Rozhdestvensky had normal shells, then he would have gone to Vladik.


    Normal ones are HE explosives with a high filling ratio of pyroxylin, or trinitrophenol, and reliably detonated fuses without slowdown, or armor-piercing shells from the future with TNT equipment and reliable fuses with an optimal degree of deceleration?

    Even in this case, I’m afraid that Rozhestvensky would need to reduce the operational overload of the ships of the squadron loyal to him, decisively save those from unnecessary combustible materials, send transports on the eve of the battle to neutral ports, and urgently introduce into the heads of his subordinates the idea that a maximum of armored ships could concentrate fire on one target, but not the whole squadron.

    The shells (the quantity and quality of explosives in them, serious problems with the Brink fuse) are of course the most important technical cause of the Tsushima accident. But in my humble opinion there were others mentioned just above, which, even with good shells and a more successful execution of the rebuilding from two wake columns to one, when the squadrons were involved in artillery combat, would lead to defeat in the Tsushima battle, albeit not as catastrophic as in the famous us historical reality.
    1. anzar
      anzar 25 July 2019 22: 32 New
      +1
      ... or armor-piercing shells "from the future"with TNT equipment ...

      What is the future there? Since 1902 they were produced in Germany. Could they buy TNT (10t!), And with "old" (thick-walled) shells it would fit more (without modification) due to the absence of a copper case. But even so, pyroxylin was not enough ... But "saved" for seeds ...
      1. Alexandra
        Alexandra 25 July 2019 23: 14 New
        0
        If Russia mastered the industrial production of TNT faster than in the USA (1905) or Great Britain (1907), then probably the Russo-Japanese war would have ended in a different way.

        However, in Russia, the production of TNT was mastered only in 1909 ...

        It should be noted that the advanced British fleet did not enter the First World War with shells with TNT equipment. And the US Navy at the beginning of the First World War for some reason had shells with charges of such explosives as ammonium picrate, rather than TNT.

        Thus, in 1904-1905. TNT for Russia - this is definitely "BB from the future." But shells with melinite equipment existed in Russia before the Russo-Japanese War ... in siege artillery. The Russian fleet had melinite, which, by the way, was much cheaper than pressed wet pyroxylin in “neat brass nickel-plated cases” was not interesting. Alas.

        It seems that these are the "tricks" in military-technical policy, an inescapable feature of the Russian Navy. After all, the point is not even in the “housekeepers”, but in the universal admiral’s confidence that the Russian lightweight armor-piercing shells are the best in the world. The Russian admirals were then sincerely sure of this! Today, domestic admirals are also confident in many strange things. For example, the fact that the continuation of the serial construction of RTOs pr. 21631 is good:

        "The head of the shipbuilding department of the Russian Navy, Vladimir Tryapichnikov, expressed the hope that construction of the modernized ships of project 2024 will begin in 21631 ..."
        1. anzar
          anzar 25 July 2019 23: 36 New
          +1
          However, in Russia, the production of TNT was mastered only in 1909 ...

          I told- buy a little 20t (!) for 2ToE would be enough to re-equip large-caliber parts 6 "... But you already ALREADY knew that the shells were not" the best "...))
          The fleet of the Russian melinitis ... was not interesting

          Of course, ship’s guns have much more acceleration when fired than a siege howitzer. Not every mellinite withstood, in the process of breaking through armor, too. In addition, the shelf life ...
          1. Alexandra
            Alexandra 26 July 2019 00: 59 New
            +3
            Quote: anzar
            I said - to buy a little - 20t (!) For 2ToE would be enough to re-equip large-caliber parts 6 "


            In addition to buying the latest explosive, it was also necessary to work out the explosive charge of this explosive in a particular projectile.

            In fact, with TNT charges in armor-piercing shells it wasn’t all that simple. The charges of pure TNT were detonated in the process of breaking through thick armor, about the thickness of a projectile. TNT needed to learn to phlegmatize.

            "For equipment armor-piercing shells used phlegmatized TNT, consisting of 94% TNT, 4% naphthalene and 2% dinitrobenzene."

            So the story is about how: “In 1902 they bought 20 tons of TNT, in 1905 they flushed the flagship of the admiral of Togo with TNT” - it is of course an alternative, but not believable.

            In addition, TNT did not solve the problem with Brink's “unsecured fuse action”.

            An alternative story about how the Russian Navy, before the start of the Russian-Japanese all the same, acquired high-explosive melinite shells with a high content of explosives and the Filimonov shock tube, later an 11DM fuse, looks more likely.

            In addition, the shelf life ...


            With all the shortcomings, melinitic explosive charges were cheaper than the charges of wet pressed pyroxylin both in production and in everyday use.

            One way or another, naval artillery shells of the 1907 specimen first received melinitic explosive charges (rather than charges from some kind of "elephant"), and only then their release (and reloading of those already produced) with TNT charges was established.
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 26 July 2019 11: 16 New
              +1
              Quote: AlexanderA
              In addition to buying the latest explosive, it was also necessary to work out the explosive charge of this explosive in a particular projectile.

              That's right, but we still need technology for the equipment of an explosive shell.
              So, according to melinitis, we didn’t have such technology (only for mortars), unlike the Japanese.
              1. Alexandra
                Alexandra 26 July 2019 18: 48 New
                +1
                When fastened, in besieged Port Arthur, they were equipped with melinite, without any MTK approved technology:

                http://militera.lib.ru/db/lilie_mi/01-7.html

                “Our cruisers Novik, Bayan, Askold and the battleship Retvisan fired at Japanese positions, helping our left flank.
                I personally saw one melinitic 12-inch bomb hit Mount Quisan; it was clearly seen how the Japanese who were there rushed to run in different directions. "

                They put their shock tubes on unexploded Japanese 11-dm “leaddite” shells and “sent them back”:

                http://militera.lib.ru/db/lilie_mi/01-10.html

                October 26 "Since the Golden Mountain battery spent all of its shells, its commander Captain Seitz collects unexploded 11-inch Japanese shells around the city, changes the shock tube in them and sends them back to the Japanese from his battery."

                They established casting of bronze and cast-iron shells of shells:

                http://militera.lib.ru/db/lilie_mi/01-11.html

                “Due to the extreme shortage of shells in the engineering workshops and the port, hasty work is being done to cast them all the time. Up to 20 cast iron shells and up to 30 bronze shells are produced daily."
                1. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 26 July 2019 20: 27 New
                  0
                  Again. - This is mortars. To them was the technology.
                  Do not die so early Panpushko, maybe that happened. But, in fact, the problem is not in the type of explosives, but in its quantity. Put some projectile into the existing chamber, even TNT, even shimozu - the effect will be the same.
                  As for the alleged 12 "melenitic shells, then, obviously, Lilye just made a mistake.
                  1. Alexandra
                    Alexandra 26 July 2019 20: 39 New
                    -1
                    Again. - This is mortars. To them was the technology.


                    "I personally saw one melinitic 12-inch bomb hit Mount Quisan."

                    And how many 12-inch mortars were in Port Arthur? It was a 12-inch bomb from Retvisan. Or do you think Colonel Engineer Isaac Aleksandrovich Lurie "lied as an eyewitness"?

                    on September 7

                    “Our fleet did not take any part in the battle and did not leave its inactivity for a minute. True, the battleship“ Retvisan ”fired two times, but without any result. One of its shells, by the way, did not even reach the shore and exploded in in the air. "

                    Comment on a premature break?
                    1. Senior seaman
                      Senior seaman 26 July 2019 21: 08 New
                      +2
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      Or do you think Colonel Isaac Alexandrovich Lurie "lied as an eyewitness"?

                      I suppose Lilia (whose memories you quote) was simply mistaken. No other sources mention melenitic shells on Russian battleships. And MIKHAIL IVANOVICH (!!!!) nevertheless - a serf engineer and did not understand naval affairs.
                      The rest of the passages you cite speak directly of projectiles to twenty-eight centimeters mortars.
                      As for the artist Isaac Mikhailovich Lurie, he was born in 1922 year and could not be an eyewitness to those events.
                      1. Alexandra
                        Alexandra 26 July 2019 22: 13 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        I suppose Lilia (whose memories you quote) was simply mistaken. No other sources mention melenitic shells on Russian battleships. And MIKHAIL IVANOVICH (!!!!) nevertheless - a serf engineer and did not understand naval affairs.


                        Everyone is wrong. I was mistaken in calling Mikhail Ivanovich Isaac Mikhailovich. You were mistaken when you wrote that in Russian artillery before the Russo-Japanese War, melinite was used only in mortar shells.

                        “Since 1902, along with mortar bombs, 6-inch bombs equipped with melinite have been delivered to fortresses and siege parks for 1877 pounds for 120 cannons, which have been declared suitable since 1904, and for 190 pounds for cannons ... 6-inch melinitic bombs were successfully used in the defense of Port Arthur. Lieutenant Colonel LN Gobyato, assistant commander of the Kwantung Fortress Artillery on technical -182-part, who returned from captivity, gave an enthusiastic response about their action. I did not watch, I successfully released The shell destroyed the building or the Japanese infantry fled. Therefore, they were very safe, used only in a difficult moment, and completely shot by the end of the siege. According to Gobyato, our shells were more effective than the 120-mm and 150-mm Japanese "shimoz." gave Colonel Stolnikov, who commanded artillery on the right flank of the defense.
                        The same 6-inch bombs were used in the fighting near Sandep and Mukden, where siege artillery was in position due to the absence of howitzers. According to reports of the East Siberian siege regiments, they gave excellent destructive action. As stated by the chief of the siege artillery in the Manchu armies, Major General N.I. Kholodovsky, only a few hundred cannon and mortar melinite shells were used up. "Shirokorad AB" The Miracle Weapon of the Russian Empire "Chapter 3

                        What about naval artillery:

                        "At one time, a weak attempt was made to increase the weight of the explosive filling of the projectile by replacing pyroxylin with a denser substance - melinite (picric acid). In 1895-1896, experimental fire with melinite shells was carried out at the firing range with the ground military department. However, they fired was found unsafe for the gun, and the experiments were abandoned. " V.E. Egoriev "Operations of Vladivostok cruisers in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905." Chapter xii
                      2. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 26 July 2019 22: 24 New
                        +2
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Along with mortar bombs, 6-inch bombs loaded with melinite come to fortresses and siege parks for 1877 guns in 120 pounds,

                        All this is wonderful, but it has nothing to do with Canet’s cannons and other modern RIF guns of the RIF.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        However, shooting them was deemed unsafe for guns.

                        What I'm talking about.
                        Notice, no 12 "melinite bombs.
                      3. Alexandra
                        Alexandra 26 July 2019 23: 07 New
                        +1
                        All this is wonderful, but it has nothing to do with Canet’s cannons and other modern RIF guns of the RIF.


                        As you know, the 6-inch gun of the sample of 1877 weighing 190 pounds in its ballistics is far from mortar. Modern? 6-inch siege gun of 1904:

                        "The experimental equipment for TNT KPVV decided to start with 6-inch shells for guns in 200 pounds, to which has long a melinite projectile was designed, but they did not dare to accept it, fearing premature ruptures due to the high initial rate of fire of this gun. "Shirokorad A.B.

                        The fleet of the Russian Empire met and conquered the Russo-Japanese war without melin shells only because no matter what happens "feared premature ruptures."

                        But the enemy was not afraid, had numerous cases of failure of naval guns due to premature shell explosions in the barrels, he won the war.

                        Are you afraid? Buy cresilite gear technology from the French. “This property was based on the equipment method developed around 1892 at the L'Ecole Centrale de Pyrotechnie Militaire in Bourges, where new shells and detonators were being developed. An alloy of 60% trinitrocresol and 40% picric acid, which becomes plastic at about 60 ° C, was chosen. This alloy was called cresilite ... It is interesting to note that in 1905 Prof. A. V. Sapozhnikov proposed organizing the filling of shells with us for a semi-liquid alloy of trinitrocresol with picric acid, which perfectly filled the shell and had an almost amorphous structure. "

                        But everyone was happy with everything. Because of this "alloy" of "fears", the unsubstantiated belief that "it will do," and the thieving "economy" by 1904, the Empire, its Army and Navy simply asked to lose the war "for technical reasons." However further it became only a little better.

                        "In 1905-1914 a mess reigned in the Artcom of the GAU. They officially abandoned pyroxylin and melinite, but continued to produce them slowly in small batches. So, in 1902-1910, the Okhta plant produced 130 melinite warheads by the 515nd. m (152-inch) cannon and mortar shells.
                        As for trotyl, then Sergei Mikhailovich and all the generals were formally “in favor”, but at the same time in every way sabotaged its production. ”Shirokorad A.B.

                        And yes, as Shirokorad writes, the Germans learned to equip large-caliber shells with TNT only in 1905, so that Tsushima didn’t have time to trotil, buy TNT from the Carbonit company or don’t buy it.
                      4. AK64
                        AK64 27 July 2019 10: 15 New
                        0
                        Shirokorada should be filtered through a cloth.
                        Believe him in serious matters (that is, going beyond the numbers in the tablets) is NOT possible.

                        And this has long been known: he is a "keen" man. (Yes, and amateur)
                      5. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 27 July 2019 12: 20 New
                        +1
                        I agree with my colleague AK64. The revelations of Alexander Borisovich should be perceived with a certain degree of skepticism.
                        But you still do not understand what the real problem is the shells of the 1891 sample of the year. It is not in the mark of explosives, but in its low content. And if in a thick-walled projectile it is easy to replace pyroxylin with melinite, then the only consequence would be an increased risk of explosion, but not at all an improvement in combat properties.
                        That is why buying a license from francs will not do anything. And there are, by the way, reasonable doubts that they were ready to sell it. EMNIP this technology was classified.
                        From the fact that 1904 of the year (the same in 200 pounds) was made to the siege cannon, the projectiles didn’t completely melinit that they approached 6 Kanet. before. and not in the 1905 year.
                      6. Alexandra
                        Alexandra 27 July 2019 16: 24 New
                        0
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        But you still did not understand what the real problem of shells of the 1891 model was. It is by no means in the BB brand, but in its low content.


                        Maybe you won’t tell me that I didn’t understand, but I, in turn, will not tell you that you didn’t understand, but we will talk about shells?

                        The explosive filling factor in armor-piercing shells of the 1892 model "at the lower limit of normal" is for armor-piercing shells.

                        I will not be unfounded:



                        The question is that wet pyroxylin itself, in fact, is a blasting explosive of reduced density (density 1.3–1.45 g / cc) and reduced power, with humidity less than 10% it is dangerous to handle, with a moisture content of 10-30%, an intermediate detonator is required for detonation, at a humidity of more than 30%, the sensitivity to detonation decreases sharply, at a humidity of more than 50% it completely loses explosive properties. It was difficult to keep the humidity of charges in the “working interval” under ship conditions.

                        “When pyroxylin is used as a blasting explosive, it is advisable, for safety reasons, to use wet (10-25%) pyroxylin, and it is necessary to use dry pyroxylin (5%) with such a charge as an intermediate detonator. Difficulty in ensuring the desired humidity of pyroxylin to the extent required, ultimately led to the abandonment of its use. "

                        Further, the brass case, as well as the wooden insert, “ate” the useful volume of the chamber.

                        Compared with the charge of wet pyroxylin in a brass case with a wooden liner placed behind it, melinite equipment using the pouring method (density 1.58-1.61 g / cc) without a case and a wooden liner would allow to put 30% more explosives in the same chamber.

                        But this is not the main problem of 1892 shells. Even the Brink fuse, due to which on average a third of the shells simply did not explode, was not the main problem of these shells.

                        The main problem was that armor-piercing shells, even in 12-gauge caliber (these, however, were equipped with a bursting charge of smokeless gunpowder, and not pyroxylin), could penetrate the armor of the main belt of enemy ships to a distance of about 30 cable, no more.

                        The distance and the course angle of artillery battle were chosen by the enemy. And so he chose in most cases even 12 inch Russian shells could not penetrate the armor of the main belt of his ships.

                        High-explosive shells with a high coefficient of filling with a blasting explosive (at least 8-10%) and a conventional fuse, shells that were equally effective at all combat distances, there were no corny shells in Russian ship ammunition.

                        High-explosive was considered semi-armor-piercing, with less than armor-piercing armor penetration, and the same Brink delayed-action fuse.

                        And in the cellars were even less effective cast-iron and almost useless segmented shells.

                        And so for all significant calibers.

                        The situation with 75 mm shells (the main anti-mine caliber of large artillery ships and the main caliber of destroyers) ... I better keep silent.

                        From the fact that the siege cannon arr 1904 (the same one in 200 pounds) made melinite filling of shells it does not at all follow that they approached the 6 "Kane.


                        You know what kind of explosives were the shells of the French fleet then?
                      7. Senior seaman
                        Senior seaman 27 July 2019 16: 54 New
                        +2
                        You know, your comment makes a strange impression. That is, you wrote everything correctly, but ... answer me a simple question: - How will replacing pyroxylin with melinite, in the existing shells, correct the situation?
                        After all, you wrote
                        But shells with melinit equipment were in Russia before the Russian-Japanese war ... in siege artillery.

                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Further, brass case

                        And melinitovoy filling will need insulation, which also will eat the useful volume.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The filling ratio of explosives in armor-piercing shells of the 1892 sample of the year "at the lower limit of the norm"

                        Uh ... in the picture you cited, a projectile weighing 97 kg has a mass of explosives in 1,8 kg.
                        According to Titushkin, the Russian 12 armored piercing shell, with a weight of 330 kg, had a 1,3 kg BB.

                        For some reason, your example does not seem to me correct.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        You know what kind of explosives were the shells of the French fleet then?

                        I know. Do you know what started our discussion?
                        I will remind you. I wrote
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        but still need technology equipment projectile explosives.

                        What you do not understand in this phrase?
                        Franks had technology. The Japanese and the British had. We do not have.
                        But even if it were, it very little improved the shells arr. 1892 of the year, due to the low content of explosives in them.
                        But if our plants could cast thin-walled projectiles, this would drastically improve the situation, even with a pyroxylin filling.
                      8. AK64
                        AK64 27 July 2019 18: 01 New
                        0
                        uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ...

                        Not so simple with TNF (aka melinitis). As I understand it, armor-piercing shells do not work with him. Look at the same picture in Japanese armor-piercing black gunpowder is written instead of BB. Why didn’t they put melen?

                        As I understand it, Melenith used those fleets that relied on high-explosive shells. The Russians, however, relied on armor-piercing shells (even Russian high-explosive shells, and those --- "semi-armor-piercing"), and therefore the TNF was categorically unsuitable. Which led to the choice of pyroxylin. That is, the Russian melinite was categorically unsuitable - the whole concept of the battle would have to be redrawn.
                        That is precisely why the question of melinitis did not even arise after the REV too. That is, there’s nothing to even discuss here.

                        The disadvantage of pyroxylin is its inevitably low density. (Well, cellulose, ground cotton wool, in fact, how much will you shove it?) TNT or TNF into the same hole that in the picture could be crammed as if not twice in weight, or even more. (TNT has a density of 1.6 or something, TNF has approximately the same)

                        Pay attention to the size of the chambers and the weight of the explosives - TNT stuff immediately weighs twice as much with the same chamber sizes.

                        PS: pay attention to the lack of penetration of armor (at least the main belts) on Russian ships.

                        ZZY: And about casting: it's not about skill, inability. you won’t make armor-piercing thin-walled, he needs strength.
                      9. Alexandra
                        Alexandra 27 July 2019 21: 50 New
                        +2
                        Quote: AK64
                        As I understand it, Melenith used those fleets that relied on high-explosive shells. The Russians, however, relied on armor-piercing shells (even Russian high-explosive shells, and those --- "semi-armor-piercing"), and therefore the TNF was categorically not suitable.


                        Admiral General Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich relied on "saving." He did not have enough for the magnificent daily feasts in his palace on the Moika and for his mistress, the French ballerina Eliza Balletta.



                        Kolchak V.I. "The history of the Obukhov steel mill in connection with the progress of artillery technology" St. Petersburg, 1903 p. 325

                        Or do you have another explanation for why Rozhestvensky’s squadron in the Tsushima battle fought without 6 "HE shells with a HE loading factor of 9,5% and 12" HE shells with a HE loading factor of 7,75%?
                      10. AK64
                        AK64 28 July 2019 16: 49 New
                        0
                        Not interested.

                        Your opinion is not interesting to me.
                        Totally.
                        And therefore I am not going to not only discuss it - but even read it

                        About melinitis is written for Uv. Ivana
                      11. Alexandra
                        Alexandra 29 July 2019 19: 59 New
                        0
                        You win the argument is interesting. And you are not interested in knowledge. Do not blame me.
                2. Alexandra
                  Alexandra 27 July 2019 20: 56 New
                  0
                  You know, your comment makes a strange impression. That is, you wrote everything correctly, but ... answer me a simple question: - How will replacing pyroxylin with melinite, in the existing shells, correct the situation?


                  I would not fix it without adopting thin-walled high-explosive steel projectiles with a high explosive filling ratio.

                  According to Titushkin, the Russian 12 armored piercing shell, with a weight of 330 kg, had a 1,3 kg BB.


                  Titushkin was mistaken in the distant 94th. Firstly, smokeless gunpowder was there as an explosive, as well as in the so-called high explosive. Secondly, there was no armor-piercing cap depicted in the figure. What about the weight of the explosive charge 12 "armor-piercing projectile:



                  Kolchak V.I. "The history of the Obukhov steel mill in connection with the progress of artillery technology" St. Petersburg, 1903 p. 324

                  4,345 kg.

                  And in the outdated work of Titushkin there are too many mistakes.
                3. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 28 July 2019 08: 43 New
                  +1
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  I would not fix it without adopting thin-walled high-explosive steel projectiles with a high explosive filling ratio.

                  I am glad that we came to a common opinion.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  4,345 kg.

                  Excellent 1,3%
                  Now take your example. 1,8 / 97х100 - 1,85%
                  And if you take 1,8% of 331 kg, you get ... 6,12kg ... almost the weight of the explosive in the high-explosive 1892 projectile (or in the armor-piercing 1907) ... that was our armor.
                4. Alexandra
                  Alexandra 29 July 2019 20: 09 New
                  0
                  1,31%

                  Do you want to point out the American 305 mm armor-piercing with 1,53% BB?

                  http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_12-50_mk8.php

                  AP Mark 18 Mod 1

                  this was our armor plate.


                  With a bursting charge of smokeless powder and a shock tube of the sample of 1884, it was a parody of an armor-piercing shell.
                5. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 30 July 2019 09: 27 New
                  0
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Want to point American

                  I am glad that we are not the only ones doing stupid things. The Germans, by the way, are even worse (during the RIAA), so what?
                6. Alexandra
                  Alexandra 1 August 2019 13: 29 New
                  0
                  Apparently a cruiser of the Alaska type was American stupidity, but not much. Check this failed. The Germans in the 28 cm high explosive shell contained 15,9 kg of explosives.

                  https://ru.qwerty.wiki/wiki/28_cm_MRK_L%2F40
                7. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 1 August 2019 14: 50 New
                  0
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Check this failed.

                  In fact of the matter. But turn the story differently, you see someone now cited Russian shells as an example, they say, it could be so :)
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  The Germans in 28 cm HE shell

                  This is with the Brandenburgs, which went into operation 10 years before the events under discussion. But after them completely different ships were built, with other guns and with other shells. Among which there were absolutely no explosives.
                8. Alexandra
                  Alexandra 1 August 2019 15: 26 New
                  0
                  If it weren’t for Tsushima, nobody would have been interested in Russian shells of the period before 1905, just as nobody is interested in those German shells with which Hochseeflotte did not fight.
                9. Senior seaman
                  Senior seaman 2 August 2019 18: 39 New
                  0
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  If it weren’t for Tsushima, nobody would be interested in Russian shells from the period before 1905.

                  I can not agree.
              2. Alexandra
                Alexandra 1 August 2019 16: 04 New
                0
                http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_11-40_skc04.php

                28 cm (11 ") SK L / 40

                Date Of Design 1902
                Date In Service 1904

                http://bulletpicker.com/pdf/Notes%20on%20German%20Shells.pdf



                Picric acid - Trinitrophenol
              3. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 2 August 2019 18: 41 New
                0
                Colleague, I’m not good at German, but I’m sure that "Picric acid" - picric acid - tritritrithenol - mellinite. I can understand :)))
  • anzar
    anzar 27 July 2019 21: 10 New
    +1
    Dear colleague Ochenkov, a question about equipment technology was asked to my ("priest")) proposal for the purchase of TNT and re-equipment of shells, even in Madagascar bully I, as the instigator, will have to answer ... what
    How can replacing pyroxylin with melinite in existing shells correct the situation?

    I don’t know about melinite, maybe there will be no profit, reliable insulation is also needed there (not from moisture, but from metals). In addition, it cannot be done in improvised workshops.
    I talked about TNT. They could buy together with specialists, since even pyroxylin was not enough, they were equipped with partially smokeless gunpowder ... 35 mil are to the "exotic cruisers". R. found, but for explosives (generally a small amount) ...
    The technology there is quite simple (if you know it of course)) - melting, pouring, drilling a cylinder under an initiating charge from pressed trotyl ... Perhaps the latter will not be needed if old fuses containing dry pyroxylin are preserved, I don’t know if it’s possible like them " revision ".
    All this "popanachstvo" theoretically possible, but in practice, of course NO. But continuing with the "theory", that’s what some geometric studies showed))

    Armor-piercing - instead of 1,3 kg - 3,3 kg of TNT. The previous charge barely cracked the shell, so I think it’s much better here.
    Landmine (rather half drift.) - instead of 6 kg of "detonating cotton" - 9,5 kg of TNT. Here it’s not very ... so if it comes to them ... Question about 6 "- another time))) hi
  • anzar
    anzar 27 July 2019 21: 30 New
    0
    Oops, I got it there with proportions ... sad
  • AK64
    AK64 28 July 2019 17: 14 New
    0
    TNT has a density of about 1.6 grams per cubic meter. cm

    But I don’t understand how and why 300 kg of pyroxylin or 1.3 kg of TNT fit in 3.3 cc
    The numbers are a clear mistake.

    PS: But against considering fantastic versions. I even discuss the "lightweight armor-piercing projectile" (an extremely erroneous concept!) I see no reason.
  • anzar
    anzar 28 July 2019 19: 35 New
    +2
    Why did 300 kg of pyroxylin or 1.3 kg of TNT fit into 3.3 cubic cm? There is a clear error in the figures.

    Due to the copper case for pyroxylin, which is absent in TNT. With it, the total charge weight came out somewhere approx. 4-5 kg, which figure is found somewhere, and is accepted (erroneously) by some as the weight of pyroxylin. (by the way 1,3% - this is just the case)
    But you are right that the numbers are wrong. 350; 1009 and 564 square cm - this is the diameter of the sections of the cavity. Due to laziness to consider the volume, I used the proportion, where the eta figure for the 1907 sample is taken as 1. This is a gross mistake, which came to me a little later than the comment could edit. ((
    Now the same laziness has moved to make a different proportion, which is not quite, but much more accurately, the cube of the square root of those sections. New figures - 2,58 and 12,67 kg

    I even discuss the "lightweight armor-piercing projectile" (an extremely erroneous concept!) I see no reason.

    The meaning is the same as to discuss possible maneuvering Rozhdestvensky, the role of pebbles, etc.))) In the case of shells, they are available, and this is the answer to the question "could the reloading of ALREADY made shells help". But in general, yes, it makes no sense, but we have such a hobby))) Do not see the point, do not discuss, no one is angry hi
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 28 July 2019 21: 25 New
    0
    Quote: anzar
    "could the reloading of ALREADY manufactured shells help"

    The nuance is curious, but I still have a feeling that the Colleague, evaluating the replacement of pyroxysiline with TNT, comes from the bulk charge density. (not counting the case, which is pretty thin).

    The gravimetric density of granular pyroxylin powders is in the range of 0,6–0,9 kg / cm3.


    The density (specific gravity) of various varieties of pyroxylin powder ranges from 1,54 to 1,63 kg / dm3.


    I want to remind that the density of TNT is the same 1.65 kg / cm3, and the equipment of the shells implied the use of pressed pyroxylin, and not filling with granules (although in fact they were bombarded with ordinary smokeless powder).
  • anzar
    anzar 28 July 2019 21: 49 New
    0
    A colleague, evaluating the replacement of pyroxisline with trotyl, comes from the bulk density of the charge. (not including the case, which is pretty thin)

    I do not wonder how much the case takes there and what is the density, but I proceed from the number of TNT in mod. 1907. In addition, the cameras in mod. 1892 and 1907 are not the same (as the same colleague mistakenly believes) According to my (approximate, from a large-scale picture) calculations, the cameras in mod. 1907 are one and a half times larger. It is interesting how, with the same external dimensions, they got the same weight. Probably due to the armor-piercing cap (which in m. 1892 is not there, there is a ballista. Tip)
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 28 July 2019 22: 05 New
    0
    Quote: anzar
    I do not wonder how much the case takes there and what is the density, but I proceed from the number of TNT in mod. 1907.

    Honestly, in this alternative fuss with shells, I would still pay the first attention to adding smoke to the explosives. The absence of a hit marker greatly affected the accuracy of Russian artillerymen in that war.
  • anzar
    anzar 28 July 2019 22: 38 New
    +1
    The lack of a hit marker had a big impact on accuracy ...

    And due to what (and where) to add smoke? There would be a sufficient charge - smoke (and flame) themselves will appear (at the expense of the "client"))
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 29 July 2019 00: 11 New
    +1
    Quote: anzar
    There would be a sufficient charge - smoke (and flame) themselves will appear (at the expense of the "client"))

    That's the problem that they themselves did not appear. Both pyroxisline and smokeless powder only give a flash. They did not explode on water, when they hit a ship they exploded but inside, i.e. the flash is still not visible. It is noticeable only if the enemy flies something large, such as a pipe or mast. Hence the widespread opinion about useless shooting, although in fact both the damage and losses from the Russian shells were quite serious. When they hit of course.

    We need some pyrotechnic additives for tinting powder gases. By the way, TNT was also quite smoky by itself, but I heard that something was added to it for marking.
  • AK64
    AK64 29 July 2019 20: 52 New
    +1
    Smoke is not needed: there the water columns were higher than Mars, and even from 6 ".
    And it was quite clear in front of the ship or behind it.
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 29 July 2019 22: 54 New
    +1
    Quote: AK64
    Smoke is not needed: there the water columns were higher than Mars, and even from 6 ".

    You are again inattentive. Pillars will be from exploding shells. Look at the photo of Comrade in the comment on the last article. The surge from Russian shells is not impressive. And in addition, we are talking about getting into the ship.
  • Alexandra
    Alexandra 29 July 2019 20: 11 New
    +1
    They were shot cast iron with explosive charges of black powder.
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 29 July 2019 22: 58 New
    +1
    Quote: AlexanderA
    They were shot cast iron with explosive charges of black powder.

    Which also did not explode when splashed in water. I didn’t come up with a smoke problem myself. This is in the testimony of Russian gunners saw. Several people immediately indicated this separately as a serious problem.
  • AK64
    AK64 29 July 2019 20: 40 New
    0
    I do not wonder how much the case takes there and what the density is, but I proceed from the number of TNT in mod. 1907. In addition, the cameras in mod. 1892 and 1907 are not the same (as the same colleague mistakenly believes) ......


    Your Dear Opponent in this case compares the round with red. It makes no sense even to mention the density of pyroxylin powder - since the pyroxylin charge is from pyroxylin and not from gunpowder. So where does the density of gunpowder (which is a POLYMERIZED pyroxylin) here?
    Pyroxylin is just cotton wool (well, cotton wool broken on a blender-holander into dust - but nonetheless cotton wool): do you (or your Opponent) use a lot of cotton wool? It makes sense to discuss the density of the pyroxylin charge --- and in terms of dry pyroxylin.

    At the same time, there is one more problem with pyroxylin: it, if it is pressed very hard, can break. Dry pyroxylin from a hammer blow explodes completely, and even smokeless powder is not recommended to be pressed into cartridges when stuffed.

    PS: In your example, I tried to count the volumes. And I must say that it turns out I’ve got some nonsense: it turned out that the chamber volume of the armor-piercing shell is 1.3 kg of pyroxylin --- .... about 4.5 liters (!!!!!)
    Where am I wrong?
    ZZY: the area of ​​the base of the chamber comes out about half of yours. Why is that? Area - pi-er-square. er - 7-8 cm. Area - 170-180 cm in sq. At a height of about 30 cm, the volume is at least ... 4.5 liters
  • anzar
    anzar 30 July 2019 19: 41 New
    0
    Where am I wrong? ... ZZY: the area of ​​the base of the chamber comes out about half of yours. Why is that? Area - pi-er-square ...

    My UTB is NOT the area of ​​the base, but the area of ​​the lateral (rotational) section. Measured by a scaled image in a CAD program by hatching (otherwise the shape in height is difficult for analytics "from the bottom"))
    At first (without thinking it through: ((made the usual proportion, where the area and amount of TNT sample 1907g = 1. Then, (having thought better of it)) first I took the square root from that area and already it was in the third step. It’s also inaccurate, but for proportion will do. hi
  • AK64
    AK64 1 August 2019 12: 52 New
    0
    Also inaccurate, but for proportion

    HORROR!

    WHAT FOR?????


    But God is with him. I still have a chamber volume of 4.5 liters.
    Can anyone explain this amazing result?
  • anzar
    anzar 1 August 2019 22: 38 New
    0
    Can anyone explain this amazing result?

    This is a picture, not a drawing, that is, it does not shine with accuracy)). All the same, measuring the cavity, I received the radii of a truncated cone of 63 and 45 mm, a height of 240 mm. The upper part is a slightly elongated hemisphere with a radius of 45mm. Acc. the volume is approx. 3,4 liters (armor-pierced model 1892)
  • AK64
    AK64 2 August 2019 10: 35 New
    0
    Acc. the volume is approx. 3,4 liters (armor piercing 1892 g)

    3.5 liters, 4.5 liters .... Even if just 3 liters.
    Why in 3 liters - only 1.3 kg? Here is the question ....
    Or was the camera much less than painted ??? Radius less than 40mm ?????
  • anzar
    anzar 2 August 2019 12: 10 New
    0
    Why in 3 liters - only 1.3 kg? Here is the question ....

    Drawn for sure. But forget about the copper case. They wrote up that its thickness is "only" 1mm. Perhaps, but it’s not latex ... a glove that is far from so snug. In addition, the chambers do not seem to have been exposed to mehan. processing, i.e. a little different when casting, and the case should be included in all ...
    And the weight of the shells also varied within certain limits, 331,7 kg is the standard, and probably ranged 331-333 kg (at least))
  • AK64
    AK64 2 August 2019 16: 54 New
    0
    none of this can even take 1 liter
  • AK64
    AK64 29 July 2019 20: 32 New
    +1
    New figures - 2,58 and 12,67 kg

    Well, that is two times --- what your Submissive Servant said right away without any calculations, just out of density. (I would even say that there could have been a little more than two. times)

    PS: The case in volume can be ignored: it is not thicker than 1mm.

    Do not see the point - do not discuss, no one is angry hi

    Well, I will explain:
    To discuss TNT among Russians --- but despite the fact that it does not have among Japanese --- it seems to me a rather fantastic assumption. But the fact that the Russians suddenly DIDN'T BEGIN to switch to lightweight armor-piercing shells --- such an assumption is quite possible. This was certainly an erroneous decision --- but if we are talking about Rozhdestvensky then ... he had it for granted.

    We can discuss the option that the Russians did not begin to build the clones of the Cesarevich --- building instead the clones of Retvisan. I personally like the latter much more - but it would hardly change anything under Tsushima.

    But if Russian shells (the same 1.3 kg of pyroxylin) exploded as they should .... IMHO, this alone could change the result of Tsushima.
    This is despite the fact that according to any, wildest ideas, shells MUST BE TESTED REGULARLY --- that in RI for several years it has not been done corny. If the shells from each batch were selectively tested --- then the problem with explosions would have been fixed long before the events.

    Since there is not the slightest fiction here --- but just common sense, it is quite obvious to consider the result of a battle with serviceable Russian shells.
  • anzar
    anzar 30 July 2019 19: 26 New
    0
    But here is the fact that the Russians suddenly did not BEGAN to switch to lightweight armor-piercing shells --- such an assumption is quite possible

    Perhaps, but no more than others))) By that time (90s) the "donor" of technology for the RIF-French (the leader in the naval artillery of those times) also had 349kg shells, the Germans indulged in even lighter shells for 240mm (140kg! weighing 240mm Austrian 215kg) Trend however! Britons and Americans (due to backwardness)) saved 386-394kg with black powder. About 455kg of Russian cast irons for 12 "/ 35 there is nothing to think ((
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 27 July 2019 20: 18 New
    0
    Quote: AlexanderA
    The question is that wet pyroxylin itself, in fact, is a blasting explosive of low density (density was 1.3-1.45 g / cc) and low power

    Why on earth pyroxylin became explosive with reduced power? The power of pyroxisline is 10-15% higher than trotyl and at least not inferior to melinite.

    Quote: AlexanderA
    The main problem was that armor-piercing shells, even in 12-gauge caliber (these, however, were equipped with a bursting charge of smokeless gunpowder, and not pyroxylin), could penetrate the armor of the main belt of enemy ships to a distance of about 30 cable, no more.

    Frank rush. I’ve already reminded three times about breaking through the main armored belt of Mikasa with 43 kbl in the Yellow Sea. And he recalled armor tests for Sevastopol confirming confident penetration of 12 "armor-piercing shells of armor in 229 mm up to 50-60 kbl.
  • Alexandra
    Alexandra 27 July 2019 21: 28 New
    +1
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Why on earth pyroxylin became explosive with reduced power?


    http://koi.tspu.ru/koi_books/arhipov1/ch7r2.htm

    The results of the study of brisance by the compression method of copper craters:

    Pyroxylin - 3.0 mm, TNT - 3,6 mm, dynamite - 3,9 mm, nitroglycerin - 4,6 mm

    Frank rush. I’ve already reminded three times about breaking through the main armored belt of Mikasa with 43 kbl in the Yellow Sea.


    Three times? Armor plate 178 mm. The hit is actually normal. How often do conditions arise in artillery combat when a target on a parallel course looms so successfully on a traverse? Can you recall another similar case?

    "At distances of more than 20 cabin. Firing from all guns at armored vessels is carried out by high-explosive shells. At distances 20 cab. and less than 10 and 12 inches. guns go on armor-piercing shells, and a 6-inch., 120-mm guns begin to shoot armor-piercing shells only when reducing distances to 10 kb "
  • AK64
    AK64 28 July 2019 17: 25 New
    0
    The results of the study of brisance by the compression method of copper craters:

    Pyroxylin - 3.0 mm, TNT - 3,6 mm, dynamite - 3,9 mm, nitroglycerin - 4,6 mm


    A typical mistake made by incompetent people is the holy faith in ONE book.
    The trick is that brisance is a FROWNING ability. It is quite low for pyroxylin and very high for TNF (significantly higher than for TNT). So what? But ... nothing: as a result - very small fragments of Japanese shells.
    In general, explosives have many properties in order to characterize them. The power of explosives (which is actually used to evaluate effectiveness) is actually a more complex integral characteristic.
  • Alexandra
    Alexandra 28 July 2019 23: 12 New
    +1
    Quote: AK64
    A typical mistake made by incompetent people is the holy faith in ONE book.


    Quote another book. For example, indicate the brisance of trinitrophenol determined by the same method (which I know, but did not specifically indicate).

    So what? But ... nothing: as a result - very small fragments of Japanese shells.


    And for one, please indicate the brisance of A-IX-2, so beloved by our ammunition developers. Let’s pamper about how they spoil the fragmentation spectrum of domestic HE shells filling those A-IX-2 and even with a filling factor that the Japanese did not even dream of.

    Or are you not familiar with such concepts as the coefficient of filling a projectile with an explosive substance, a fragmentation spectrum? Excuse me, are you competent then in the matter under discussion? (joke)

    Do you know what Hochma is? You mixed up pyroxylin with trinitrophenol. It is believed that trinitrophenol is about 10% more powerful than TNT. But wet pyroxylin, it is inferior to TNT. Both by the heat of explosion, and by the speed of detonation, and even by the explosiveness (pyroxylin containing 16% water demonstrates an explosiveness of 280 ml, TNT - 285 ml).

    Dont be upset. Everyone is wrong. I'm wrong too. It happens.
  • AK64
    AK64 29 July 2019 20: 56 New
    0
    brisance there is no business at all.

    Brisance is the ability to split. Only. In Melinit, it is VERY high - much higher than TNT. Pyroxylin is low, much lower than TNT. Despite the fact that the explosive power varies, of course - somewhere in 2 times.

    But I’m not telling you this: I’m telling my colleagues - so that they don’t think that you can take a word. It’s not interesting for me to speak with you
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 28 July 2019 21: 05 New
    0
    Quote: AlexanderA
    The results of the study of brisance by the compression method of copper craters:

    Thank you for the link, I added it to the folder of interesting books :) But why did you decide that brisance is the only explosive power parameter?

    Directly on your own link and quote:
    The manifestation of brisance is the fragmentation effect of ammunition, the effects of cumulation, the armor-piercing effect of detonation products and other types of local destruction.


    The explosive properties of an explosive are not completely determined by the same parameters as the explosiveness of a given explosive. In particular, the explosive explosiveness increases with increasing specific heat of explosive transformation Qв, specific volume Vo and heat capacity of gaseous explosion products.


    Quote: AlexanderA
    Can you recall another similar case?

    You read my comment inattentively. Another "many" cases are the test of armor for Sevastopol before the PMV. The results shocked the designers, but this is a fact - the armor of the 229 mm projectile in 12 "does not hold.
  • Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 29 July 2019 11: 25 New
    +1
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Another "many" cases are the test of armor for Sevastopol before the PMV. The results shocked the designers, but it’s a fact - the 229 mm armor in the 12 "does not hold.

    Friend, but nothing that TAM has already tested new shells, with a different mass (470 kg) and a different initial speed? Even I, a complete layman, and then in the know. You can’t automatically transfer from one column to another, simply because "the numbers are similar"
  • AK64
    AK64 29 July 2019 20: 58 New
    +1
    Friend, but nothing that TAM has already tested new shells, with a different mass (470 kg) and a different initial speed? Even I, a complete layman, and then in the know. You can’t automatically transfer from one column to another, simply because "the numbers are similar"


    Moreover: talking about the thickness of the armor --- silent about WHAT exactly this armor is --- meaningless.
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 29 July 2019 22: 47 New
    +3
    Quote: Trapper7
    Friend, but nothing that TAM has already tested new shells, with a different mass (470 kg) and a different initial speed?

    But not a fact. It was in the summer of 1912. Shot "John Chrysostom", i.e. the same 12 "\ 40. The shooting of poor Chesma was carried out in three stages. In the first they tested the armor, in the second they tested new shells of the model 1911, in the third they shot with torpedoes. It’s not indicated anywhere in the first test that heavy shells were fired. please find a link, although the fact that in the second test they used exactly the new shells of the 1911 model is stated directly.

    You certainly sowed a certain grain of doubt in me, but Mikasa’s hole reminds me that they still make their way.
  • Alexandra
    Alexandra 29 July 2019 19: 35 New
    0
    Both in terms of the heat of explosion and the explosiveness (pyroxylin with a moisture content of 16% shows a high explosivity of 280 ml, TNT - 285 ml), wet pyroxylin is inferior to TNT.

    You read my comment inattentively. Another "many" cases are the test of armor for Sevastopol before the PMV.


    Let's not confuse God's gift with fried eggs. Rozhdestvensky had 331,7 kg of shells without armor-piercing caps with explosive charges of smokeless gunpowder and shock tubes of ordinary action. If such a projectile pierced the armor, the explosion of a charge of 4,35 or 6 kg of smokeless powder immediately after the armor did not have a significant damaging effect.
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 29 July 2019 23: 58 New
    0
    Quote: AlexanderA
    Both in terms of the heat of explosion and the explosiveness (pyroxylin with a moisture content of 16% shows a high explosivity of 280 ml, TNT - 285 ml), wet pyroxylin is inferior to TNT.

    Speaking of the heat of the explosion, you haven’t guessed here - a comparison of the explosive energy. 1 kg BB, kcal:
    Smoke powder. 663
    TNT. . *. . 950
    Pyroxylin. . 1025
    Nitroglycerin. 1500

    Stumbled upon excerpts from history:
    It was only at the beginning of the XNUMXth century that the largest German chemist and specialist in the field of explosives, Heinrich Cast, began to study precisely trinitrotoluene. He drew attention to the fact that the manufacturing process of trinitrotoluene does not contain explosive stages.

    The German military immediately appreciated Cast's invention, and already in 1905 the first hundred tons of TNT was released in Germany under the encrypted name Fullpulver 02. But the secret was not a secret for long

    The very next year, thanks to captain Vladimir Rdutlovsky, TNT is being produced in Russia - under the name “trotyl”, aka “thol”. So TNT began his victorious march.


    The idea with TNT does not pass in the alternative purely in time. The Germans did not have time to release it before the departure of 2-TOE.
  • AK64
    AK64 26 July 2019 10: 12 New
    +1
    I said- buy a little- 20t (!)


    Have the Germans already sold?
    Have you already agreed with them?
  • AK64
    AK64 26 July 2019 10: 11 New
    +1
    the total admiral confidence that Russian lightweight armor-piercing shells are the best in the world. The Russian admirals were then sincerely sure of this!


    How do you know that? How do you know about "confidence", and even more so, "universal"?
    1. Alexandra
      Alexandra 26 July 2019 19: 15 New
      +1
      I did not encounter "Dotsushima" doubts about the superiority of Russian shells to any of the Russian admirals or senior officers:

      https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/55860.html

      "... In the letter quoted above, one of the participants in the battle on August 14 cites the following judgments, still held among the personnel of the Vladivostok cruisers:

      “We think that our shells, without bursting into so many small fragments and having slower tubes, inflicted very serious damage on them (Japanese. - V. Ye.). The local American naval agent (attache), examining our cruisers, strenuously sought to know what shells we shot - he probably knew the damage to the Japanese ... "

      Have you met?
      1. AK64
        AK64 26 July 2019 22: 42 New
        -1
        “Total confidence” does not follow from this.
        And even more so, confidence in the "best in the world."

        You start from three quotations to ascribe to the admirals something outrageous, and even to blame them for stupidity.
        1. Alexandra
          Alexandra 26 July 2019 23: 47 New
          0
          Let's do it, you will find the Dotsushima doubts of at least one Russian admiral about the superiority of Russian shells over Japanese ones and I will take my “total confidence” back.

          Will you find? At least one?
          1. AK64
            AK64 27 July 2019 10: 06 New
            -2
            I won’t even search. And what's more ...

            Beklemishev has a small brochure about women's logic. Beklemishev - he is a scientist, and approached the issue scientifically, systematically. So one of these FEMALE methods of the dispute is the substitution of the subject of the dispute. You just did just that.

            Moreover, according to normal (male) logic --- I don’t have to prove anything to you at all: you MUST prove that the total admiral confidence that Russian lightweight armor-piercing shells are the best in the world. The Russian admirals were then sincerely sure of this!

            Here you go and prove. Or honestly, and without taking away my time and that of other colleagues, admit that they got excited in the polemic enthusiasm. Or just keep silent - if you don’t have the strength to admit that you slightly exaggerated

            PS: Russian shells, according to the performance characteristics, they work regularly - that is, as it should be, quite consistent with the level. Not ideal - but at the level of that time quite. And "by passport" is really better than Japanese. (If they worked as planned!) The problems were not in the poor design of the shells, but in the poor or erroneous development of them (this aluminum drummer, as an example). That would be easily fixed if MUCH tests of each series of release were carried out.
            1. Alexandra
              Alexandra 27 July 2019 10: 41 New
              +4
              Quote: AK64
              I won’t even search.


              Do you propose to quote all the admirals of the Russian Imperial Navy on the subject that, before the Tsushima disaster, they did not doubt the superiority of Russian shells over Japanese ones, and they themselves were not ready to quote at least one that doubted? wink

              I feel we will not agree. I appreciate the time you spent on the story of a certain Beklemishev pamphlet on a completely extraneous topic, but remember, we have a voluntary discussion here, and I owe you nothing, just as you owe me nothing. If you are too lazy to give an argument (one!) Disproving my thesis, then consider that I am too lazy to give 57 arguments (the staff of military officers and naval mechanical engineers approved in December 1903 included 22 vice admirals and 35 rear admirals) my thesis confirming. Do you understand my male logic? Hope so.
              1. AK64
                AK64 27 July 2019 10: 52 New
                -3
                You offer me to quote all admirals of the Russian Imperial Navy on the subject of those before the Tsushima disaster


                I suggest you not to lie. And do not even exaggerate.
                And I propose not to persist in either lying or exaggeration. (It happens that you blurt out something hot - well, why persist in something?)
                Here is what I offer you.

                In addition, I suggest that you conduct a conversation in a manly manner, and not "according to Beklemishev" —that is, do not resort to polemic techniques such as substituting a thesis, etc.
                1. Alexandra
                  Alexandra 27 July 2019 11: 06 New
                  +3
                  Quote: AK64
                  I suggest you not to lie. And do not even exaggerate.
                  And I propose not to persist in either lying or exaggeration.


                  Well, I suggest you bring just one argument that incriminates me in a lie ... or admit that you cannot bring this argument, that is, you have a poor command of the topic. The fact that you are also demonstrating a logical error argumentum ad hominem might not have been written, but what is really there, it’s not difficult for me. And do not even express my gratitude to you for pointing out this your logical mistake. wink
                2. 27091965
                  27091965 27 July 2019 16: 19 New
                  +1
                  I suggest you not to lie. And do not even exaggerate. And I propose not to persist in either lying or exaggeration. (It happens that you blurt out something hot - well, why persist in something?)


                  The sailors demanded the tests of shells constantly before the war - and they constantly answered "we won’t give money!"


                  Are you going to be tested at the 1899 Ohten training ground?
                  We tested armor-piercing, armor-piercing with caps (caps were supplied in small quantities by the French company "Holtzer") and HE shells.
                  Purpose: determination of the strength of shell shells when hit by various targets (armor, non-armored structures), determination of the best methods for melting and hardening shell shells.

                  Therefore, it’s not worthwhile to "blurt out something hot."
                3. AK64
                  AK64 27 July 2019 17: 31 New
                  0
                  (1) since 1899 how many years have passed? Five? And how many shells were fired during this time? In fact, it is necessary to test from each party. To everyone! Selectively. Because everything happens. And if they had experienced normally, then they would have noticed and corrected the problem with the fuse.

                  (2) The armor-piercing properties of the projectile were tested. That is, the strength of the hulls and the ability to penetrate armor. But 2TOE (and 1TOE) had problems with detonation, that is, with the action of a fuse and detonation of explosives.

                  And the funniest thing is that they have already told you this
                4. 27091965
                  27091965 27 July 2019 18: 54 New
                  +1
                  Quote: AK64
                  since 1899 how many years have passed? Five? And how many shells were fired during this time?


                  You probably don’t know when the industrial introduction of new technologies and the re-equipment of factories in the Russian Empire for the manufacture of shells took place?
                5. AK64
                  AK64 27 July 2019 19: 38 New
                  -1
                  I don’t know much.

                  You probably know everything. That's all.
                  It is so?
                6. 27091965
                  27091965 27 July 2019 19: 58 New
                  0
                  Quote: AK64
                  You probably know everything. That's all.
                  It is so?


                  No.
  • AK64
    AK64 26 July 2019 10: 06 New
    0
    What is the future there? Since 1902 they were produced in Germany. Could they buy TNT (10t!),


    Did Rozhdestvensky personally have to buy? For their money?

    By the way - were the Germans ready to sell? Did you ask them? Moreover, --- was TNT not a secret in 1904? After all, such things are kept secret.
    1. anzar
      anzar 26 July 2019 11: 25 New
      +1
      Did Rozhdestvensky personally have to buy? For their money?

      Why not, to the escort bully Not that much. Would send him with (DHL)) the next coal miner in Madagascar, along with specialists in the smelting / pouring / drilling / inserting of a barster from pressed TNT ....
      I’m joking of course, it’s not entirely impossible, but absolutely incredible))
      But wasn’t TNT a secret in 1904?

      No. RI was more likely not familiar with the benefits.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 26 July 2019 12: 01 New
    0
    Quote: anzar
    Could they buy TNT (10t!)

    With the same success as buying an atomic bomb from the USA in 1945
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 26 July 2019 12: 09 New
    +1
    Colleague, I do not think that the mechanical replacement of smokeless powder and pyroxylin on TNT somehow radically improved the situation.
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 26 July 2019 22: 32 New
    +1
    Quote: anzar
    Could they buy TNT (10t!), And with "old" (thick-walled) shells it would fit more (without modification) due to the absence of a copper case. But even so, pyroxylin was not enough ...

    There is no sense in stuffing trotyl into old shells, pyroxylsine is about 10% more powerful than trotyl, just the shell mentioned .. But to add smoke to the charge is quite real. The Russian gunners swore violently at the lack of traces of the hit. Shortages are visible even though by bursts (albeit weak for non-explosive shells), and close flights and hits are not visible at all. A shell flashed somewhere inside a Japanese ship, from afar there is no way to determine what hit. So they wondered if they were shooting the right sight or shooting past and again ..

    Although, on the other hand, even pyroxisline was not enough, as you rightly noted .. Armor-piercing gear was equipped with ordinary gunpowder. It was necessary to solve such issues in advance :(
    1. AK64
      AK64 26 July 2019 22: 45 New
      -2
      pyroxisline is more powerful than TNT by about 10%

      Absolutely nonsense.
      and close flights and hits are not visible at all.

      And this is nonsense too

      Yes, in fact, every word is nonsense. As usual, however
  • AK64
    AK64 26 July 2019 10: 02 New
    0
    Normal ones are HE explosives with a high filling ratio of pyroxylin, or trinitrophenol, and reliably detonated fuses without slowdown, or armor-piercing shells from the future with TNT equipment and reliable fuses with an optimal degree of deceleration?


    No. Just STANDING ACTING shells of the sample of 1892. But it works normally.

    For some reason, Rozhestvensky’s shells that flew in from the 3th TOE caused far more harm to the Japanese than the “Borodino” ones. And the reason - they were OLD, old dressing. And they worked as expected.

    If the Borodin shells were the same, then there would be a slightly different alignment in the battle.

    About the concentration of fire throughout the squadron is also not necessary --- the ships fired where they could. And people are not fools.
    1. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 26 July 2019 11: 17 New
      +1
      Quote: AK64
      For some reason, Rozhestvensky’s shells that flew in from the 3th TOE caused far more harm to the Japanese than the “Borodino” ones. And the reason - they were OLD, old dressing. And they worked as expected.

      So the third squadron consisted of "one old man and three girls" - that is, the ships used either old "heavy" shells (Nikolai) or normal 10 "- BWO.
      1. AK64
        AK64 26 July 2019 11: 36 New
        +1
        the ships used either old "heavy" shells (Nikolai) or normal 10 "- BWO.

        On Nikolai there were all the same 331 kg of shells. But the old ones, yes - that's the point.
        Why were 10 "normal" and the new 12 "not? IMHO, just because these 10 "were also the old
        1. Trapperxnumx
          Trapperxnumx 26 July 2019 13: 42 New
          +1
          Surprised by Nikolai. I thought there were old heavy 455 kg. And according to 10, "there seemed to be an explanation that with their weight of 225 kg. They had a normal number of centuries and worked well.
          1. AK64
            AK64 26 July 2019 14: 03 New
            0
            Surprised by Nikolai. I thought there were old heavy 455 kg.

            Is there any reason to think so?

            And according to 10 ", there seemed to be explanations that with their mass of 225 kg. They had a normal number of cc and worked well.

            And what are the reasons to think so?
            It seemed to me that all the shells were geometrically similar. That is, 10 "differs from 12" only in scale. It seems to me that the whole point is that 10 "were all of the same model, but of an old finish: therefore everything worked. There is an opinion that 12" "spoiled" shortly before the war, and that older ones, all of the same model 1892 were normal.
          2. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 26 July 2019 14: 46 New
            +3
            Quote: Trapper7
            I thought there were old heavy on 455 kg

            Such shells could shoot 35 caliber guns "Navarina" (obr1886g)
            On "Nikolay" were in 30 calibers (sample 1877)
            http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_12-30_m1877.php
            Quote: Trapper7
            And according to 10 ", there seemed to be explanations that with their mass of 225 kg. They had a normal number of cc and worked well.

            6.4 kg vs 6 and 12 "
            There was still a problem with fuses. In short, their strikers were rich in aluminum impurities. But by the time Borodintsy entered into service, the technologies had improved, aluminum had become more pure and therefore softer. Because of what often could not chop the cap.
            1. AK64
              AK64 26 July 2019 16: 48 New
              +1
              6.4 kg vs 6 and 12 "

              I did not know, thank you.
              Because of what often could not prick a capsule.

              So they had an aluminum drummer .....
              It seemed to me that the ears were cut aluminum
    2. Alexandra
      Alexandra 26 July 2019 19: 56 New
      0
      Quote: AK64
      No. Just STANDING ACTING shells of the sample of 1892. But it works normally.


      As I understand it, the pyroxylin charges for the 2nd TOE with the expectation of long voyages in the tropics were so humidified that the detonation from the initiating charge was often not transferred to the main one. As a result:

      “During the Gull incident, the Aurora cruiser hit a 75-mm shell, and this shell only had its bottom torn off, otherwise it remained intact. That is, the fuse worked, but not the BB.”

      The second one. Brink fuses had an aluminum striker. In the process of production, aluminum became cleaner, the hammer was softer. “By the time of the war, they began to produce much cleaner aluminum, the strikers became softer and therefore did not give a sufficient tack of explosive mercury and did not always ensure the action of fuses. After the war this part was made of steel.”

      At the same time, I hasten to upset. "When projectiles meet thin barriers indirectly and when hit by water, the impact force of the projectile, causing the igniter capsule to stick, especially in heavy projectiles of large caliber, is small. Therefore, in ground fuses, such shells must be used with highly sensitive capsules and sharp stings. Modern Japanese Warfare tube capsules gave 100% ignition at an energy expenditure of about 1600 g / cm. Rifle capsules ignite from being hit by a blunt striker with an energy expenditure of at least 13 g / cm. Therefore, due to weak barriers and on water this fuse (Brink fuse) should have acted badly. " Regardless of when the fuse was made.

      The third. Even if the fuse and charge worked normally, a shell explosion after breaking through the armor occurred in the first compartment behind the armor, and the vital centers of the armored ship (cellar, boilers, steam engine) of the 1892 shells simply could not be hit.

      https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/56888.html

      Hit number 5. 17.40. 305 mm (RK No. 6, MO No. 2).

      The 178 mm armor of the main belt of the battleship "Mikas" is pierced just below the waterline. Regular gap 12 inch shell for armor. AND?

      "The inner wall of the cofferdam was broken, damaged water tanks No. 2 and No. 4, the pump pipe of tank No. 2. Below the waterline, under the impact site, 7 rivets connecting the skin sheets were damaged, a leak occurred. The head of the shell was found behind the armor plate, fragments fell into tank No. 2, damaged the bulkhead between tanks No. 2 and No. 4, however, the internal bulkhead remained intact, and this avoided serious flooding. "

      The effect is minimal.

      No, Rozhestvensky wouldn’t have gone to Vladivostok with the normally fired shells of the 1892 model due to their frankly weak armored action during a regular break in the first compartment for armor.
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 27 July 2019 12: 28 New
        +1
        Immediately did not notice
        Quote: AlexanderA
        As I understand the pyroxylin charges for 2-th TOE with the expectation of long swimming in the tropics were so much moisture that detonation from the initiating charge was often not transferred to the main one.

        This novikovskaya bike, a hundred years already refuted.
        As for the unexploded 75mm projectile, just try to figure out the contents of the explosives in it.
        1. Alexandra
          Alexandra 27 July 2019 17: 31 New
          0
          Indicate what percentage of humidity of pyroxylin charges was accepted in the RIF for tropical conditions.

          As for the latest at that time steel armor-piercing projectile for 75 mm Kane (before that there was a cast-iron and steel armor-piercing "blanks" without a bursting charge) - a bursting charge of 50 grams.

          You are aware that the explosive charge of the German armor-piercing projectile 7,5 cm PzGr. 39 was only 18 grams of phlegmatized RDX?

          I’ll clarify. The problem of the 75 mm armor-piercing projectile of the 1902 model for the Kane gun was not in the quantity of explosives, but in its quality. It was a 50 gram burst of smokeless powder.

          http://www.vif2ne.org/forum/0/arhprint/1025581

          "Yes. The armor-piercing cane of samples 1892 and 1898 didn’t have a burst chamber. But the fact of the matter is that the 75-mm cannon shell of samples 1902 and (especially) 1907 (universally accepted for service) had a chamber. Just arr 1902 Because it didn’t receive distribution in 1902 because gunpowder was not the best filling for the shell, according to the art committee, melinite and dry pyroxylin self-exploded in it, as it was later self-invoked in mod 1907 when breaking through thick sheets of armor (of the order of caliber more)."
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 28 July 2019 08: 54 New
            +3
            Sorry, but the comparison with the anti-tank projectile completely incorrect. There, in principle, sometimes did without explosives - one disc. With ships such garbage did not roll.
            As for the pyroxylin moisture in the shells of the second squadron, it was normal. By the way, the author of the article sorted out this question EMNIP in "Myths of Tsushima"
            1. Alexandra
              Alexandra 29 July 2019 19: 53 New
              -1
              Sorry, the comparison with the anti-tank shell is completely incorrect


              You did not pay attention to the main thing, the shell had a powder explosive charge. In the "Tsushima" armor-piercing shells of any caliber, from 305 mm to 75 mm there was no wet pyroxylin. There was gunpowder. In the so-called high explosive 305 mm wet pyroxylin was not. There was gunpowder. In the so-called high-explosive 254 mm wet pyroxylin most likely also was not. Charges of wet pyroxylin were in 152 mm HE shells. The same shells were equipped with a Brink shock tube. Shells with powder explosive charges Brink tube was not completed. They were equipped with an 1884 shock tube, which belonged to the category of “ordinary” fuses, rather than delayed action.

              With ships such garbage did not roll.


              Well, it didn’t work. It rolled. You are aware that the cannon coastal artillery (10 "and 6") met the Russian-Japanese war with armor-piercing shells without a bursting charge ("There is no bursting charge for a steel bomb right now"). Do you know that the 75 mm armor-piercing projectile of the sample of 1898 was a steel blank without a bursting charge? Now in the know.
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 30 July 2019 09: 24 New
                +1
                Quote: AlexanderA
                You did not pay attention to the main thing, in the projectile there was a powder explosive charge. In the Tsushima armor-piercing shells of any caliber, from 305 mm to 75 mm, there was no wet pyroxylin. There was gunpowder.

                Colleague, is it possible to find out the source of these "revelations"?
                as far as I remember, Cherkasov and the commission’s conclusions are written there a little differently.
                Our shells are stuffed with black powder (cast iron), smokeless (12-dm and small) and pyroxylin (10-dm, 8-dm and 6-dm).
                . But not all from 12 to 3 inches.
                Now about gunpowder. Smokeless. As far as I understand, Russian smokeless powder is the same pyroxylin, only phlegmatized (so that the trunks do not burn out), therefore the explosiveness (the amount of formed gases during the explosion) is the same as that of pyroxylin, but the brisancy (the rate of their formation) is seriously less.
                Correct me if I'm wrong about something.
                Quote: AlexanderA
                Rolled.

                Come on!
                Quote: AlexanderA
                Are you aware that coastal gun artillery (10 "and 6") met the Russian-Japanese war with armor-piercing shells without explosive charge

                I'm in the know. Did you know that the Fleet had to transfer projectiles with normal explosives to shore batteries? (for sure, because the shells without explosives were, well, very effective :)))
                There is nothing to do, I had to release the required number of 6-dm and 10-dm armor-piercing and high-explosive shells from all the coastal batteries to all coastal batteries, but, in any case, in the 27 battle of January, armored-pierced sand or cast iron were used.


                Quote: AlexanderA
                Now in the know.

                Very happy for you.
                1. AK64
                  AK64 1 August 2019 13: 07 New
                  0
                  now about gunpowder. Smokeless. As far as I understand, Russian smokeless gunpowder is the same pyroxylin, only phlegmatized (so that the trunks do not burn out), therefore the explosiveness (the amount of gases formed during the explosion) is the same as that of pyroxylin, but the brisance (the rate of their formation) is seriously less.
                  Correct me if I'm wrong about something.


                  I will correct you, if you do not mind. (Just in case, I remind you that I have the right hi : by virtue of the specialty in the first diploma)
                  Gunpowder is not “phlegmatized”, but polymerized pyroxylin: pyroxylin is gelatinized in a solvent and given the desired shape. Then the solvent is removed. The powder burns in layers, and slowly. (Black burns much faster) Explodes .... bad: detonation in the size of an individual grain is still possible, but the transfer from grain to grain .... I don’t even know.
                  Pressing to a good density is also unrealistic.

                  In general, in such a projectile only part of the gunpowder burned relatively slowly before it destroyed the shell. After which the combustion naturally ceased.

                  Why stuff shells with pyroxylin gunpowder - I don’t understand: a smoker would be at least no worse (it burns faster)

                  In general, I already said this (and again I remind you: in this case, I’m probably the only one here who knows what they are talking about): 1.3 kg of pyroxylin explode NOT at all in the way it was observed and described. Descriptions are more consistent with a gap in the chamber of gunpowder, rather than a normal explosive
                2. Alexandra
                  Alexandra 1 August 2019 14: 28 New
                  0
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  Colleague, is it possible to find out the source of these "revelations"?


                  "From the All-Report on the Ministry of War on the Activities and Status of All Branches of Military Administration for 1904

                  [...]

                  In order to increase the destructive effect of armor-piercing shells, the question was raised about equipping such shells with any strong explosive. But since all the explosives taken to equip high-explosive shells, such as pyroxylin or melinite in their pure form, do not withstand the impact of the projectile into the plate and explode with such an impact before the shell has time to penetrate the plate, it was decided to test what kind of equipment for armor-piercing shells or a chemical compound of an explosive with non-active substances (as a result of which the explosive becomes more inert), and at present the commission on the use of explosives has stopped on the explosive "B , Promises to give good results ... "

                  "From the All-Report on the Ministry of War on the Activities and Status of All Branches of Military Administration for 1905

                  [...]

                  7) in view of the desire to increase the destructive effect of armor-piercing shells, the question arose of equipping them with some highly active explosive that would not explode from a shell’s impact into the armor, and it was necessary to develop a type of fuse that, without deforming itself when a shell hits armor, would produce an explosion of a bursting charge when the shell passes through the armor or after it stops completely in the armor; a sufficiently stable explosive was found by the now deceased captain Maximov, and the results of firing from a 6-dm gun in 190 pounds with armor-piercing shells equipped with this substance yielded so favorable results that it was decided to switch to experiments on equipping them with armor-piercing shells for 11-dm arr. 1877, for 6-dm Kane guns and for 10-dm guns; experiments with fuses have not yet yielded the desired result;

                  8) the actions of the Japanese fleet near Port Arthur from long distances revealed the need to have such high-explosive shells equipped with highly active explosives that could be used to shoot full warheads at all distances in our 6-dm Kane guns and 10-dm guns less than 10 versts along the enemy fleet bombarding the fortress from long distances; drawings of such shells are designed and prototypes will be ordered ... "

                  Are Revelations Enough Enough?

                  As we see, the task of equipping armor-piercing shells with some sort of blasting explosive instead of gunpowder was not solved until the end of 1905.

                  But by no means everything is from 12 to 3 inches.


                  All armor-piercing caliber from 75 mm to 12 ". 3" armor-piercing gun. arr. 1902 was not.

                  Now about the gunpowder. Smokeless. As I understand it, Russian smokeless powder is the same pyroxylin, only phlegmatized


                  Do not confuse granular graphitized smokeless gunpowder with pressed wet pyroxylin. These are different explosives. The first essentially propellant explosive with near-zero brisance. Yes, their density is also different, not in favor of gunpowder.



                  If you find a comparison of smokeless pyroxylin gunpowder and high explosive explosive by any of the methods - in a lead bomb, using a ballistic mortar and a pendulum, write.

                  Come on!


                  If for a number of guns of the Russian coastal artillery before the start of the NRW there were no armor-piercing steel shells with a bursting charge, and for a 75 mm cannon of the "mine" ship artillery, armor-piercing steel shells with a bursting powder charge were adopted only in 1902 (and was issued according to the opinion of the late M. Svirin in extremely small quantities), as you know, it "rolled" for many years, it was considered in the order of things.

                  I hope my answers satisfy your curiosity.
                  1. Senior seaman
                    Senior seaman 1 August 2019 14: 44 New
                    0
                    Quote: AlexanderA
                    I hope my answers satisfy your curiosity.

                    Not really, but thanks.
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 26 July 2019 11: 13 New
    +2
    Quote: AlexanderA
    and strongly implant in the heads of subordinates the idea that a maximum detachment of armored ships, but not the entire squadron, can concentrate fire on one target.

    It seems that the respected author mentioned that the “Hit on the Head” order concerned only the first detachment.
    1. rytik32
      rytik32 26 July 2019 11: 45 New
      +2
      Quote: Senior Sailor

      It seems that the respected author mentioned that the “Hit on the Head” order concerned only the first detachment.

      In any case, they did not understand Rozhestvensky and tried to shoot Mikasa:
      Senior art. Apraksin officer Lieutenant Taube:
      “During the battle from the battleship, fire was fired at the enemy from 54 cables, and closer than 27 cables, they did not come close to him.
      From the armadillo, while it was possible, they shot at the head armadillo "Mikaza", then the fire was transferred to the armor. cruiser Nissin
    2. Alexandra
      Alexandra 26 July 2019 20: 08 New
      +2
      It concerned the first detachment, but the flagships of the remaining detachments unfortunately forgot quite vague recommendations of Rozhestvensky about the organization of firing the squadron and did not understand that this signal did not concern them, that they should organize the firing of their detachments not for Mikas, but for other purposes. According to this, in the beginning of the artillery battle, everyone, like the announced ones, “hit” “Mikas” - shooting in a continuous series of bursts from falling shells was decidedly impossible.
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 26 July 2019 20: 31 New
        0
        Quote: AlexanderA
        all as announced "beat" by "Mikas"

        Yes, but the number of hits was such that if our battleships had high-quality projectiles, the question would have been solved by itself. Due to the absence of the flagship of Togo on the water surface.
        Well, or failure.
        However, let's wait for the promised article by Andrew. I think the material will be curious.
      2. rytik32
        rytik32 29 July 2019 10: 03 New
        0
        Interestingly, and who was to organize the shooting of the 2nd detachment, Felkersam or what? :)
  • rytik32
    rytik32 26 July 2019 13: 23 New
    +1
    Quote: AK64
    You will excuse me for being straightforward, but I do not like talking with loud and even just hysterical young people.
    If there are reasons --- well, bring it, we will listen. And screams .... screams for school friends.

    Thank you, I realized that your opinion is not supported by factual material. Following the discussion, we will consider our maximum squadron speed of 12-13 knots.
  • rytik32
    rytik32 26 July 2019 13: 32 New
    +1
    As I wrote above, there was no point in conducting transports to the Tsushima Strait because they could not be protected in the event of a battle. This is one of Rozhdestvensky’s obvious mistakes.
    Now why do we need intelligence and speed.
    Suppose at 13-20 our squadron noticed the main forces of the enemy, turned "all of a sudden" in the opposite direction from it and made a full move (12-13 knots) with the "Borodin" in the tail of the column. In this case, Togo would hardly have caught up with our squadron before sunset, and if it had caught up with it, it would have gotten a fight in a position very unprofitable for itself.
    Then at night it would be worth returning to the course to Vladivostok and already in the morning in the Sea of ​​Japan have every chance of a breakthrough.
    1. AK64
      AK64 26 July 2019 14: 07 New
      0
      Now why do we need intelligence and speed.
      Suppose at 13-20 our squadron noticed the main forces of the enemy, turned "all of a sudden" in the opposite direction from it and made a full move (12-13 knots) with the "Borodin" in the tail of the column. In this case, Togo would hardly have caught up with our squadron before sunset, and if it had caught up with it, it would have gotten a fight in a position very unprofitable for itself.
      Then at night it would be worth returning to the course to Vladivostok and already in the morning in the Sea of ​​Japan have every chance of a breakthrough.


      IMHO, a masterpiece. I even put a plus out of delight (honestly honestly - + from me)
      1. rytik32
        rytik32 26 July 2019 15: 09 New
        +1
        Thank you!
        I don’t understand Andrei from Chelyabinsk in that in his articles he modeled the oncoming battle when he proved that +2 knots allow you to put a stick over the “T”.
        I don’t understand Rozhdestvensky, who started the fight as a breakthrough at any cost.
        All logic (remoteness of bases and no infrastructure of Vladivostok) shouted that it was necessary to avoid battle at all costs, even if there was faith in the strength of its artillery. The battle was to be conducted on the principle of "ours are running away, the Japanese are catching up." In this case, it would be Dogger Bank, in which ours would lose the backward Blucher, but would come to Vladivostok.
        1. AK64
          AK64 26 July 2019 15: 47 New
          0
          I don’t understand Rozhdestvensky, who started the fight as a breakthrough at any cost.


          Did he have alternatives?

          All logic (remoteness of bases and no infrastructure of Vladivostok) shouted that it was necessary to avoid battle at all costs, even if there was faith in the strength of its artillery.


          The choice of battle in that situation was for Togo

          The battle was to be conducted on the principle of "ours are running away, the Japanese are catching up." In this case, it would be Dogger Bank, in which ours would lose the backward Blucher, but would come to Vladivostok.


          To do this, the Russians should be at least between Togo and Vladik.
          That did not allow it stubbornly - Togo did not climb south to the Russians: as soon as the Russians turned to the south --- Togo calmly broke the contact
          1. rytik32
            rytik32 26 July 2019 16: 00 New
            +1
            Quote: AK64
            Did he have alternatives?

            Of course!
            1. Turn back, as I wrote, as soon as I saw the main forces.
            2. Turn west, on the counter course when Togo was making a loop.
            3. In response to head coverage, deviate east and then south with increasing distance ...
            yes a lot more options.
            Quote: AK64
            The choice of battle in that situation was for Togo

            In fact, Togo did not even know how our strait would go, the Korean or around Japan. He was ready for all options.
            Quote: AK64
            Togo did not climb south for the Russians: as soon as the Russians turned south — Togo calmly broke the contact

            So that's great! You just had to go south and wait for the night to break through.
            So why was Rozhdestvensky given a fight, and even at close range? Where was he going to fix it later?
            1. AK64
              AK64 26 July 2019 16: 36 New
              0
              Something even too lazy for me to comment.

              I’ll put you one more +, for your creative impulse and flight of imagination
            2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              26 July 2019 21: 26 New
              +2
              Quote: rytik32
              Of course!

              let's get a look
              Quote: rytik32
              1. Turn back, as I wrote, as soon as I saw the main forces.

              No question, Togo does the same thing :)))) Japanese cruisers escort the Russians until dark, then the attacker of the destroyers. By morning, the Russian squadron suffered losses and did not have sufficient coal reserves to break through to Vladivostok. Sad returning to Cam Ranh not having a good taste?
              Quote: rytik32
              Turn west on a counter course when Togo made a loop.

              Alas, in practice this maneuver did not solve anything, since it would have blocked the fire of the Russian squadron at the most opportune moment - Suvrov, turning, closed the line of fire to other ships. It would be possible to try for the sake of trying to get close to the Kamimura's end points, but in fact he would have just started to turn around right away without burning anything.
              Quote: rytik32
              In response to the head coverage, deviate to the east and then south with increasing distance ...

              Well, Togo would have shot the final ships instead of the lead ones, and it would take him less time than that.
              Quote: rytik32
              yes a lot more options.

              So far, alas, not one who would be better than the actual maneuvering of the Russian squadron
              Quote: rytik32
              In fact, Togo did not even know how our strait would go, the Korean or around Japan. He was ready for all options.

              The problem is that wherever we go, the initiative was for the Japanese
              1. rytik32
                rytik32 29 July 2019 09: 54 New
                +1
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Japanese cruisers escort the Russians to the dark, then - the attack of destroyers. In the morning, the Russian squadron suffered losses and does not have enough coal reserves to break into Vladivostok. Sadly returning to Camran not salty slurping?

                Not the fact that the destroyer attack will be successful.
                You can return to Shanghai.
                And what will Togo do in the morning? Surely he will hurry to Vladik, because will not know which side of the Korea Strait our forces are. And from Shanghai to the strait closer than from Vladik ...
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Alas, in practice this maneuver did not solve anything, since it would have blocked the fire of the Russian squadron at the most opportune moment - Suvorov, turning, closed the line of fire to other ships. You could try for the sake of trying to get closer to the end Kamimura, but in fact he would just start a U-turn right there and nothing would burn out

                To block the line of fire for those who already couldn’t shoot efficiently - we’ll lose nothing. But if you focus the fire on Nissin, you can take it out in one pass.
                Kamimura cannot be tamed - she will turn out. The meaning of this maneuver is that Mikasa was out of work. Those. We’ll win an hour until it enters a parallel course.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Well, Togo would have shot the final ships instead of the lead ones, and it would take him less time than that.

                Tail coverage is a much more dangerous maneuver than head coverage, as your head may fall under the reach.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                So far, alas, not one who would be better than the actual maneuvering of the Russian squadron

                Bukhvostov and Serebrennikov howled the squadron much more efficiently than Rozhestvensky: they did not climb on the rampage, evaded fire.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                The problem is that wherever we go, the initiative was for the Japanese

                Look through the eyes of the Japanese. Before starting the battle, they still had to:
                1. Discover the Russian squadron.
                2. Have time to bring the main forces to it.
                And with a speed difference of 2 knots, this will not be so simple. Oh yes, ours must conduct active reconnaissance and maneuver.
  • Grim Reaper
    Grim Reaper 27 July 2019 15: 11 New
    +1
    Andrei. Thank you so much for your articles. I always read with enthusiasm, though I never comment on it, because for me navy rides on and on for me "terra incognita." And to climb into the wiki, in order to show myself to be an expert in everything .... I have already left this age for a long time. Thank you for your Varangian cycle. It turned out that I did not know anything. I am ashamed.
    And, do not pay attention to the "critics." It would be strange if they did not appear. ;)
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  • Sergelis
    Sergelis 12 August 2019 15: 35 New
    0
    Maybe not Pikul, but Novikov-Priboy?

    And to lower the flag in front of the enemy - both Rozhdestvensky and Nebogatov are not alone, alas.
    But I prefer to remember the brig 'Mercury'