Military Review

Battle for the capital of the Russian state A.V. Kolchak. Omsk operation 1919 of the year

101
Omsk operation 4 — 14 November 1919 was an offensive operation of the Soviet Eastern Front in order to take over the city of Omsk.




The alignment of forces and the situation


The Omsk operation became possible as a result of the successful operations of the 5 Army achieved during the previous Peter and Paul Operation.

Broken at the turn of the river. Tobol enemy was no longer able to provide adequate stubborn resistance even on the defensive line of the river. Ishim.

Having been defeated in battles between pp. Tobol and Ishim, A. V. Kolchak decided to withdraw his troops (2 and 3 army) to the border of the river. Irtysh - in order to defend the capital of his government, the city of Omsk, together with the 1 Army.

The idea of ​​the Omsk operation of the Reds included the application of a concentric strike to Omsk. The 5 Army (commander M.N. Tukhachevsky) was to advance along the Siberian Railway, and the 3 Army (commander M.S. Matiyasevich) along the Ishim-Omsk railway. Widely used railway and horse-drawn vehicles.

Battle for the capital of the Russian state A.V. Kolchak. Omsk operation 1919 of the year

M.S. Matiyasevich



The 3 Army at the beginning of the operation - November 4 1919


In the unfolding operation, the actions of the troops of the 5 Army can be characterized as a continuation of vigorous pursuit with the aim of capturing the border of the river. Irtysh and Omsk, the strategic and administrative center of the enemy. With the fall of Omsk, the enemy lost the main stronghold, where everything necessary for the life support of the army was concentrated. Warehouses were located here; from here the military units were supplied with shells and other ammunition; Here was the control of the front and the state.


M.N. Tukhachevsky



The 5 Army at the beginning of the operation - November 4 1919


The fall of Omsk was supposed to have a serious impact on the further course of events, bringing closer the moment of defeat or surrender of the enemy.

The Omsk operation developed in two directions: the first is the Omsk operation, along the Siberian Railway, where the 26, 27 and 35 divisions operated, initially the 5 and Cavalry divisions (the 5 I division was withdrawn on November 8 front; Cavalry was then transferred to the Kokchetav group acting on the right flank of the army). The Kokchetav group was a side screen of the right flank of the 5 Army and was supposed to provide the main forces.

The situation at the front of the 5 Army by November 4 can be characterized as follows.

On the right flank of the main operational area there were units of the 26th Division: 3th Brigade - east of Kamyshlovsky; The 2th brigade occupied the evening of the 4th November, Poltavsky; The 1-I brigade was in the division reserve in the village of Kamyshlovsky.

To the south of the railway section M. Chulak - Lake. Afternoon was occupied by the 35-th division, located on the line: the 2-th brigade with the fortress regiment attached to the 2-th Kazan –– M. Chulak –– Borki, and the 1 –– brigade –– to the west –– Sergievsky –– Lake. Afternoon.

To the north of the railway, units of the 27-th division operated, which by the evening of the 4-th November occupied the 3-th brigade near the station. Afternoon, 1-th brigade - went to the area east of the village. Metlichnaya and the village of Bugrovaya. The last point was occupied after a fierce battle by the 237th regiment together with the 43th regiment of the 5th division. Here, over 300 prisoners were captured by the Reds. The 2-I brigade, making up the divisional reserve, was in the city of Petropavlovsk.

On the left flank of the 5 Army, the 5 Division operated, which, with its 3th Brigade on the evening of the 4th November, launched an offensive to reach Lake Lake. Great and Mal. Shelegino - Slobodskoy Log (Novo-Aleksandrovka). 1-I brigade occupied the right flank d.d. Usovo - Pelevina, and the left flank was in the area of ​​the village Afonkina - to communicate with the 30-th division of the 3-th army.

The cavalry division entered the area of ​​Grigoryevsky and continued the offensive in the northeast direction.

In the secondary operational area Kokchetav-Atbasar operated the 54th Division (consisting of the 2th Main and 2th Fortress Brigades, which were located in the area of ​​the village of Nikolaevsky-Petrovsky by the evening of the 4). To strengthen the composition of this division, the Steppe Brigade moved from Troitsk (a local formation consisting of two regiments: Akmolinsky and Kustanaysky; on November 4 the brigade was located in the vicinity of Presnogorkovskaya station).

The 5 Army included: 5 (two brigades; 4179 bayonets, 140 sabers, 55 machine guns, 10 guns), 26 th (three brigades; 4361 bayonet, 113 saber, 49 machine guns, 28 guns, 27, 7019, 371) three brigades; 143 bayonets, 24 saber, 35 machine guns and 3697 guns), 131-y (two brigades; 73 bayonets, 16 saber, 54 machine guns and 4704 guns), 45-y (two 8 guns, two 2523 guns; guns) and Cavalry (three regiments; 38 sabers and 2 machine guns) divisions, as well as the 2800 th Fortress (8 bayonets and 2000 machine guns) and Stepnaya (400 bayonets, 2 saber, 2 guns and 28760 b) In total in the army - up to 3678 bayonets, 513 sabers, 88 machine guns and XNUMX guns.


5 Army machine gunners


At the front of the 5 Army, the 3 Army of the enemy continued to operate as part of the same 5 groups: Domozhirova, Stepnoy, Ural, Volzhskaya and Ufa, with a total number of up to 13 infantry and 7,5 cavalry divisions, including up to 15800 bayonets, Saber, 11300 machine guns and 300 guns.

These forces were located as follows.

Units of the Steppe group consisting of the 26th Siberian Cossack, 5th partisan Annenkov divisions and 1th Orenburg brigade acted against the 2 division.

At the site of the 35th division, the presence of the Ural group from the units of the Izhevsk, 11th and 7th Ural, 3th and 4th Siberian Cossack divisions was observed.

In the railway strip against the 27 division was the Volga group of the 13 Siberian division, the Volga cavalry brigade, 13 Kazan, 3 Siberian and 1 Samara divisions.

To the north of this group in the area of ​​the 5 division, units of the Ufa group retreated as part of the 4th Orenburg brigade, 8th Kama division, 3th Orenburg brigade, 4th Ufa and 12th Ural divisions.

In the area of ​​Kokchetav there were units of the 4 Army Corps, which had retreated from the area of ​​Kustanai, and several regiments from the group of General Domozhirova.


Major General L. N. Domozhirov, Head of the 1th Orenburg Cossack Division and Commander of the Horse Group of the 3 Army


From a survey of prisoners of war, the Reds found out that the enemy, after he failed to stay on the p. Ishim also stopped or at least slowed down the successful offensive of the Soviet troops, withdrew its units from the battle line, which remained steadfast, and grouped them in the vicinity of Art. Isil-Kul - in order to prevent the Reds from approaching the turn of the river. Irtysh. These parts were replenished to staff.

Directive No. 1752 / n. and its implementation


The commander-5 on the 4 of November gave the army units the directive No. 1752 / n. - the continuation of the persecution in order to prevent the rearrangement of the enemy.

It was ordered.

54-th division to the 8-th November to occupy the area of ​​Lake. Kamyshnoe - M. Kystaubay - peak. Aksuisky - Tsarsky, firmly providing road junctions in the area of ​​the settlement of Voskresensky - Komarovsky - lake. Ulkun-Kos-Kul.

26-th division - go to the line Uzun-Chilik-Bagai - lake. B. Allois.

Cavalry Division - 5-th to reach the village of Selety and 8-th to reach the area M. Koshkur-Bai - M. Begen.

35-th division - by the 8-th number go on the line Ekaterininsk - lake. Pike-Kurguya.

27-th division to the 5-th number to go on the line V. Gankin-Zarosloe-Shelegino and 8-th to reach the station. Isil-Kul - Art. Losieva - Swan - Boar.

5-th division - go to the area Bolshe-Peganskoe - loan. Stuffy, intercept the advanced parts of the railway in the area of ​​Lake. Mangut.

During the fighting on the army front from the 4 to the 8 of November, one can note resistance from the enemy only in the railway strip - where the rearguards were supported by an armored train.

The 26-I division led the offensive as part of three brigades, of which one (1-I) was in reserve and was moving beyond the right flank of the division. 3-I brigade, having launched an offensive from the area of ​​ur. Tamarlau - M. Barlabay, advancing in the direction - the place of the Tainchin fair and further to the village of Uzunchilik.

The 2-th brigade of the 7-th reached the area of ​​Veselovsky and, continuing the further offensive, went on the 9-th of November to the line of Lake. Muzdy-Kul - Lake Bol Allua

Parts of the Cavalry Division in the evening of the 7 number reached the village of Selety and continued the march to the southeast.

More lively hostilities took place on the site of the 35 division, where the Reds had to meet resistance from the enemy in some places, and take some points after short but stubborn battles.

Moving by two brigades in the direction of Borka - Ivanovsky - Murza - Keldy - Yekaterininsky and the village of Raevka - Uspensky - M. Dzhurat, the division, having overturned the enemy rearguards, came to the 6 on November 2-th brigade in the area of ​​M. Balpash and the 1-th - count . Kryk-kudak - Assumption. Continuing the pursuit of the enemy, the brigades by the morning of November 9 reached: 2-I - d.d. Ukrainian - Nights and 1-I - d. Nights - d. Gorodishche.

The enemy was also quite energetic in the area of ​​the 27 division. By resisting the advancing units with fire from armored trains, he tried to hold the front in the railway strip to alleviate the position of his flanks - the troops of the 5 Army that were strongly behind and retreating under pressure.

By November 6, units of the division entered the line Galkin - der. V. Ryavkina - Shelegin.

By the night of November 9, parts of the 3 brigade were occupied by Art. Isil-Kul - the village of Losiev - p. Pervotarovsky, while the 1-I reached the village of Lebyazhya through the Konyukhovsky-Kamyshlov district.

The 2-I brigade, making up the divisional reserve, was located in the area of ​​Konyukhovsky.

The army of the 5 division operating on the left flank had to meet on its way a number of serious attacks of the enemy breaking through the area of ​​the river. Ishim in the direction of the Tyumen railway to the city of Omsk.

Nomination of the 5-th division on the Tyumen branch in the area of ​​st. Mangut put the enemy, acting on the front of the neighboring 3 Army, in a position cut off from the only path leading to Omsk. At the same time, the rapid offensive of the entire 5 Army in the main Siberian Railway lane further worsened the situation for the white units operating on the site of the 5 Division and to the north.

To avoid this danger and be able to first go to the turn of the river. Irtysh before the approach of the red troops, the enemy increased resistance in the area of ​​operations of the 5 division. But did not achieve the desired results.

Parts of the 5 division successfully repulsed the attacks, and by the evening of the 5 th November, the division, after a series of stubborn battles, entered the line of the Krasny-Tavalzhan village and the units of the 3 brigade of the 1 brigade. Bol-Cranberry - Bol. Kurtal - Belyaeva.

Developing the pursuit, the division left on the 8 of November with the right-flank brigade to Lake. Kalmykovskoe and levoflangovoy - on the line d.d. Galkina - Mariinsky.

By the time the junction reached the Tyumen Railway, the withdrawal of the enemy took a hasty character.

The units of the 54 division operating in the Kokchetav direction, developing their advance forward to support the main forces of the army, approached M. Kystaubai - Aksuisky on the 8 number.

The steppe brigade, continuing its movement to the area of ​​the Chilikan - Utkul pass, on the 7 number reached the area of ​​the village. Dmitrievsky.


5-I Army to November 8 1919


Thus, by the 8 of November it became clear that the enemy had begun to withdraw, resisting only in the railway strip and on the left flank of the army, where he was making his way from the river. Ishim to the east.

The ending should ...
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  1. Olgovich
    Olgovich 14 August 2019 07: 00
    -3
    Battle for the capital Russian state

    Thank you to the author for mentioning the official name of the only legitimate state then - the Russian state.

    The flag and coat of arms of this state are today state symbols of Russia.

    His motto was: “One and indivisible Russia!” Revered Petropavlovsk in it, as before, belonged to Russia, not fictitious Kazakhstan.

    And those who fought against him were in for a terrible and unenviable fate: the same mentioned Tukhachsky and Matiyasevich died in shame, torment, undergoing monstrous humiliation and suffering. Share ....
    1. Serg koma
      Serg koma 14 August 2019 19: 23
      -4
      from the city of Troitsk, the Steppe brigade (a local formation — consisting of two regiments: Akmolinsky and Kustanaysky; on November 4, the brigade was in the vicinity of Presnogorkovskaya station).
      Steppe Brigade continuing to the Chilikan - Utkul pass area, On the 7th reached the area of ​​the village. Dmitrievsky.

      Presnogorkovskaya station; Presnogorkovka is a village in the Uzunkolsky district of the Kostanay region of Kazakhstan.
      Utkul - Troitsky District, Altai Territory, Russia
      Either I misunderstood something, or the question - To which "pass" the Separate Steppe Brigade of the 5th Army is moving on November 7th (Red Day of the Calendar wink ) ??? It seems like thinking about the "passes" in the near future Stepnoy br. unusually early ...

      ORDER OF REVOVENSOVET V ARMY TO THE COMMANDER OF A SEPARATE STEP-COMMAND Brigade
      ABOUT UNITING PARTICAN SECTIONS OF THE KUSTANA DISTRICT WITH REGULAR PARTS
      RED ARMY. Kustanay October 12, 1919
      In pursuance of the task entrusted to me by the Revolutionary Military Council of V — the unification of separately operating partisan detachments into a regular military unit called the Separate Steppe Brigade of the V Army, I order: tomorrow, October 13, at 9 o’clock to unite under my command the First Stepnoy Akmola Regiment, consisting of 950 bayonets, a battalion 2 Steppe Kustanay regiment in the amount of 550 bayonets and 2 squadrons; 2 Steppe cavalry regiment in the amount of 15 horsemen and 60 mixed cavalrymen in full battle order. Take all safety precautions
      in the direction of the village. Semyonovsky and a forced march to take one. After that, having subjugated 1 battalion of the 3rd Steppe Kustanai regiment in the amount of 550 ("bayonets] and a cavalry division in the amount of 250 sabers operating in the same area, immediately enter into submission
      the chief of the Kustanai combat station, from whom to receive further orders until the special order of the commander V. The brigade commander to take all measures: 1) to provide people with food, 2) to establish communication with the head of the combat section, for which to organize posts of flying mail. Send reports to the headquarters of the combat unit every four hours.
      Member of the Revolutionary Military Council V Grunstein
      Member of the Revolutionary Military Council V Gubarev
      TsGASA, f 185, op. 8, d 249, l. 59-60

      OPERATIVE SUMMARY OF THE CHIEF OF THE FIELD DEPARTMENT OF THE V ARMY ON BATTLE OPERATIONS TO RELEASE THE TERRITORY OF THE KUSTANA UEZD.
      Chelyabinsk October 18, 1919
      ........
      After a stubborn battle, part of the Steppe Brigade, occupying Lavrentievsky, was forced to leave under the pressure of superior enemy forces.
      pos. Lavrentievsky and retreat to Semenovsky, on the map there is no that, 48 miles south-east of Kustanay, where the advancing units of the enemy are detained. ....
      TsGASA, f. 1372, op. 2, d. 259, l. 70-71.

      Report of the XNUMXth Army to the Chief of the Operations Directorate of the Eastern Front on the Liberation of the Territory of the Kokchetau County
      Petropavlovsk 16 November 1919 g
      Kokchetav group. Steppe brigade: on November 13, the Kustanai regiment was in the area of ​​the village. Kazan, Akmola regiment - pos. Commendable. 2 brigade of 59 divisions: 483 regiment occupied the village on November 14. Chelkarsky; from the 481st regiment and Sobolev detachment no reports were received to the staff.
      .........
      TsGASA, f. 185, op. 2, d. 663, l. 157.

      ORDER OF THE COMMANDER OF THE KOCHETAV GROUP OF EASTERN FRONT FOR FUTURE COMBAT FOR THE LIBERATION OF AKMOLINSK AND OTHER SETTLEED ITEMS
      Makinsky 27 November 1919 g
      I. Parts of our army continue the offensive eastward. 2 brigade of the 26th division continues the attack on the city of Pavlodar and entered the line of the river. Irtysh. On the site of the Kokchetav group, the enemy, resisting, retreats to the city of Akmolinsk.
      II. I order the parts of the group:
      ........
      b) By the evening of November 30, the Stepnoy brigade commander would occupy Aleksandrovsky, where to concentrate the entire brigade, having an outpost with the strength of 1 company in the area of ​​Lake. Balta-Kora for communication with parts. Shtabrig Stepnoy by the evening of November 30 - Akmolinsk.
      .......
      TsGASA, f. 431, op. 1, d. 1, l. 6.
      1. Brutan
        Brutan 14 August 2019 20: 08
        +6
        And what did they say?
        The steppe brigade, continuing its movement to the area of ​​the Chilikan - Utkul pass, on the 7 number reached the area of ​​the village. Dmitrievsky.

        All right
        1. Serg koma
          Serg koma 14 August 2019 20: 13
          -3
          Quote: Brutan
          All right

          You can ask where this pass is located, and when the Separate Steppe Brigade of the 5th Army reached it, or at least when it was assigned a combat mission to advance to the pass?
          1. Brutan
            Brutan 14 August 2019 20: 16
            +6
            Take an interest in the text of documents for the specified dates
        2. Brutan
          Brutan 14 August 2019 20: 14
          +6
          The text of the article, by the way, contains excerpts from the relevant directives - to PLACE and TIME.
          and in your post for the indicated period it is bashfully silent about this, they brought the period of October, and then already on November 16
    2. Serg koma
      Serg koma 14 August 2019 19: 51
      -2
      Quote: Olgovich
      the same mentioned Tukhachsky and Matiyasevich died in shame, torment, having undergone monstrous humiliation and suffering. Share ....

      20 May 1919 city
      A defector Ivanov arrived in the regiment, who reports that the heavily wounded red and white were pinned. He moved from the 1st Perm Regiment, not tolerating the regime: lashes and sticks.
      In the White Guard regiments, at each platoon, there is an officer whose role is not only as a commander, but also a spy. In the shock assault battalion of the Mari Regiment that did not go on the offensive, one out of three companies was shot.
      All mobilized soldiers intend to cross at the first attack of the Reds. Kolchak issued an order: to shoot all foreigners who are captured. The Muslims who ran across, several people from the 21st regiment, were shot by white.

      Political summary of the political department of the army on the capture of Kazan. Art. Sviyazhsk. September 10, 1918 .......
      On Art. Sviyazhsk arrived to 1 released after a month of imprisonment of the Red Army and workers. Their mood is cheerful. Report on the horrors of imprisonment. They awaited the execution with awe. First, responsible workers were shot, after - employees and workers in Soviet institutions. Kazan workers released them at night. Many chased with rifles to finish off the escaping White Guards. Everyone is eager to join the Red Army and deliver the final blow to the Czech-White Guard gangs. In the short time of the reign, the workers of the powder and Alafuzovsky factories, formerly the nests of Menshevism, established the rebellion against the White Guards. Unfortunately, our troops were still relatively far away, and the White Guards were able to easily eliminate the poorly armed workers. During our attack on Kazan, the majority mobilized by the White Guards, as well as those who arrived from Samara, fled in groups to our side. Currently, there are about 000 prisoners.
      Head of the Political Department Chugurin.
      Head of Communications and Information Department Itkin.

      There was a war, there was a struggle ... You can judge both one and the other - THIS IS HISTORY, depending on which side you take - the enemy is always "guilty". For example, in Spain there are monuments to Franco, and in our country there were and are monuments to tsars.
  2. Ekzutor
    Ekzutor 14 August 2019 08: 48
    +6
    The Peter and Paul and Omsk operations are closely related; they were central to the 5th Army on the Eastern Front, creating a reputation for Tukhachevsky.
    1. Hunghuz
      Hunghuz 14 August 2019 09: 11
      +5
      Yeah. The eastern front became his Toulon
      for the young "red Bonaparte"
      1. Brutan
        Brutan 14 August 2019 11: 19
        +4
        I read somewhere about an interesting observation that generals who advanced in civil wars are impotent in wars with an external enemy, and vice versa.
        1. Kronos
          Kronos 14 August 2019 12: 44
          -1
          It’s not so many officers who participated in the civil war, then they fought well in World War II.
          1. Serg koma
            Serg koma 14 August 2019 19: 32
            -1
            drinks
            Quote: Kronos
            It’s not so many officers who participated in the civil war, then they fought well in World War II.

            And Boris Mikhailovich Shaposhnikov is one of the brightest examples.
            At the hour of the burial of Marshal of the Soviet Union Shaposhnikov, to give the deceased the last military honor and to fire in the capital of our Motherland, Moscow, twenty-four salvoes of one hundred and twenty-four guns.
          2. Brutan
            Brutan 14 August 2019 20: 06
            +5
            This is true
            You can recall the same Budyonny. In a citizen flashed, on the South-Western Front is not very.
            1. Brutan
              Brutan 14 August 2019 20: 10
              +3
              The South-West direction of the Great Patriotic War meant
  3. Hunghuz
    Hunghuz 14 August 2019 09: 14
    +5
    River lines and railway lines ...
    Of particular importance and special attention
    1. Brutan
      Brutan 14 August 2019 11: 18
      +5
      There are a lot of specifics. From dwarf armies (by the standards of external wars) to tactical nuances
  4. yriuv62
    yriuv62 14 August 2019 09: 45
    +3
    The article is written objectively and informatively. It is not clear only why Kolchak's bantustan was named the Russian state? And immediately the seizure monarchists were hysterical about "one and indivisible." Is this Kolchak who betrayed everyone and everything? Not even funny.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 14 August 2019 10: 29
      -5
      Quote: yriuv62
      . It is not clear why Kolchak's bantustan is called the Russian state?

      Because it is the official name only then the legitimate state of Russia is the RUSSIAN STATE, which fought the attacking Bantustan.
      Bantustan traitors, forever sold for power German occupiers one third of the Hebrews of the country who fed him gold and bread.

      A. A.V. Kolchak, A.I. Denikin and the others were his only employees.

      Has it reached now? hi
      1. Foul skeptic
        Foul skeptic 14 August 2019 10: 35
        +4
        Legitimacy is determined by the willingness of a people to recognize the power of a group of that people. In a civil war, talking about the legitimacy of one of the parties is at least imprudent.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 14 August 2019 11: 03
          -3
          Quote: Nefarious skeptic
          Legitimacy is determined by the willingness of a people to recognize the power of a group of that people.

          Legitimate, th, th (special). Recognized by law, consistent with law. || noun legitimacy; L. power. (Ozhegov Dictionary, Explanatory Dictionary of the Russian Language)
          those. the consent of the people with legal AUTHORITY.

          The Russian state was legal, for proclaimed by the people- in the person of his chosen ones in the CSS of Russia
          Quote: Nefarious skeptic
          In civil wars, it’s at least imprudent to talk about the legitimacy of one of the parties

          it is necessary and necessary that it is clear who is who, who is a criminal and usurper, and who is fighting them
          1. Foul skeptic
            Foul skeptic 14 August 2019 12: 38
            +1
            it is necessary and necessary that it is clear who is who, who is a criminal and usurper, and who is fighting them

            Misunderstanding of the term leads to such conclusions. The famous Sicilian mafia is illegal, but very legitimate.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 14 August 2019 13: 42
              0
              Quote: Nefarious skeptic
              Misunderstanding of the term leads to such conclusions.

              So get it, finally! You are given the interpretation of the word.
              Quote: Nefarious skeptic
              The famous Sicilian mafia is illegal, but very legitimate.

              Wow! belay Then again:
              Legitimate, th, th (special). Recognized by law compliant with law. || noun legitimacy; L. power. (Ozhegov Dictionary, Explanatory Dictionary of the Russian language)
              .
              Which law is the mafia? Who recognizes her ... by law (except for you and the mob)?
              1. Foul skeptic
                Foul skeptic 14 August 2019 14: 11
                +2
                So get it, finally!

                I understand. Therefore, it would not have occurred to me to write about the only legitimate authority in the period of the civil war.
                Who recognizes her ... by law (except you)?

                Sicilian Mafia? Most Sicilians.
                What law does the mafia comply with?

                You look straightforwardly at a phrase from a dictionary. The law here is synonymous with power, because only those vested with power can establish mandatory provisions, what are the laws. Legitimate is one that has been recognized by itself as a power and whose laws are ready to comply.
                Therefore, what was written above about the only legitimate group of people during the civil war cannot be true.
                If you move away from Ozhegov's dictionary to specialized literature, then this is exactly what you will read. And so you unwittingly replaced the meaning of the term "legitimate" with the meaning of the term "legal".
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 14 August 2019 15: 09
                  -1
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  Therefore to me and it wouldn’t have crossed my mind write about the only legitimate authority during the civil war.

                  Defect apparently hi
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  Who recognizes her ... by law (except you)?

                  Sicilian Mafia? Most Sicilians.

                  only the Sicilians about it -don't guess. request Or bring the decision of the G-Sicilian recognition of the Mafia as legitimate?
                  Yes, and you are not a Sicilian ....

                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  You look straightforwardly at a phrase from a dictionary.

                  and you are crooked.
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  The law here is synonymous with power

                  Bullshit: the law cannot be synonymous with power; it is its act, an instrument.

                  ONCE AGAIN I repeat, what I wrote earlier. Legitimacy is the consent of the people with AUTHORITY.

                  And the consent is expressed by the people in the elections of Power-US-Russian state.
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  Therefore, the above is the only legitimate group people during the civil war may not be true.

                  Not a group, but AUTHORITY is legitimate, Nationwide selected TO gr. war and recognized by all authorities, including Bolsheviks (they pushed themselves in there and worked). They left, but the power remained legitimate - it has already taken place.

                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  And so you unwittingly replaced the meaning of the term "legitimate" with the meaning of the term "legal".

                  Both legitimate and legal.
                  1. kanskebron
                    kanskebron 14 August 2019 20: 56
                    0
                    ONCE AGAIN I repeat, what I wrote earlier. Legitimacy is the consent of the people with AUTHORITY.

                    So the people did not support this power, having voted with bayonets for the Bolsheviks. In general, the attitude of the people to those deputies of the CSS was akin to the attitude of the people to deputies of the State. Duma now. That is very negative.
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 15 August 2019 06: 34
                      0
                      Quote: kanskebron
                      So the people did not support this power, having voted with bayonets for the Bolsheviks.

                      Bayonets are not voices. Hitler with bayonets conquered Europe. Right in your opinion
                      Quote: kanskebron
                      In general, the attitude of the people to those deputies of the CSS was akin to the attitude of the people to deputies of the State. Duma now. That is very negative.

                      Are you the people of 1918? How old are you? lol
                  2. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 15 August 2019 10: 11
                    0
                    only the Sicilians have no idea about this.

                    Did they whisper in your ear when you typed a message at the computer?
                    Or bring the decision of the G-Sicilian recognition of the Mafia as legitimate?

                    Legitimacy is not an area of ​​jurisprudence, but a sociology of law. It exists or does not exist regardless of paper.
                    Yes, and you are not a Sicilian ...

                    Not a Sicilian. But 20 years I spend my vacation in Italy, living with Italians and talking with Italians.
                    And your phrase is equivalent in depth of thought - doctor, you are not a woman, therefore you cannot be a gynecologist. Or - the doctor - you are not crazy, so you can not treat people with deviant behavior. Or - a peasant, you are not a plant, so you do not know how to grow them.
                    At one of the press conferences, the "iron prefect" Mori said that the primary task of the state is to discredit the mafia. Because the people with their problems go not to the state bodies, but to the local capomafia. Because government agencies cannot solve the problem of a person, but the mafia does. In general, there is no point in rassing about this topic, there is a lot of research. Read Rosario Minna and Michele Pantaleone (there are Russian translations) or Arlacchi and Paoli (there are English translations).
                    ONCE AGAIN I repeat, what I wrote earlier. Legitimacy is the consent of the people with AUTHORITY.

                    Yes. And the civil war (which is preceded by a revolution) is the disagreement of the people with the authorities. So legitimacy and civil war are incompatible things. This is what they are trying to tell you.
                    They left, but the power remained legitimate - it has already taken place

                    It's a delusion. Legitimacy is not permanent. Today, the people of power trust and obey, but not tomorrow. Therefore, today it is legitimate, and tomorrow it is not. I already wrote that you confuse legality and legitimacy.
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 15 August 2019 10: 45
                      +1
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      Did they whisper in your ear when you typed a message at the computer?

                      Nope, they whispered to YOU ​​that they recognized the Mafia as legitimate. Other than this whisper, there is no other evidence.
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      Not a Sicilian. But 20 years spent my vacation in Italyliving with Italians and chatting with Italians.

                      This is proof, yes ... lol

                      By the way, Sicilians and other Italians are a very big difference. Did not know?
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      Legitimacy is not an area of ​​jurisprudence, but sociolo.

                      This chatter does not convince your other nonsense:
                      Sicilian Mafia? Most Sicilians.

                      .
                      .
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      А your phrase in depth thoughts are equivalent - a doctor, you are not a woman, therefore you cannot be a gynecologist. Or - the doctor - you are not crazy, so you can not treat people with deviant behavior. Or - a peasant, you are not a plant, so you do not know how to grow them.

                      Deliver me from your "depths" request
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      At one of the press conferences, the "iron prefect" Mori said that the primary task of the state is to discredit the mafia. Because the people with their problems go not to the state bodies, but to the local capomafia. Because government agencies cannot solve the problem of a person, but the mafia does. In general, there is no point in rassing about this topic, there is a lot of research. Read Rosario Minna and Michele Pantaleone (there are Russian translations) or Arlacchi and Paoli (there are English translations).

                      The mafia kills, which means it is legitimate. Bravo!
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      Yes. And the civil war (which is preceded by a revolution) is the disagreement of the people with the authorities.

                      Not with the authorities, but with the bandits from the RSDLP who seized it. The people of the revolution never did.
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      . Legitimacy is not permanent.

                      Of course. Therefore, having dispersed the Bolsheviks lost remnants of legitimacy on the part of their voters, leaving it to the CSS. They treacherously deceived them: they promised them their job in the CSS, and they themselves ... killed him. So the loss is undeniable
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      today it is legitimate

                      Remember, remember: legitimate authority is legitimate ..law lol (for the law = power, in your opinion). belay

                      А "Union of Sword and Plowshare" -absolutely legitimate organization (in your opinion), because it was recognized by the authorities as Kisa, Elena Stanoslavovna, Nikesha, Kizlyarsky, etc. lol

                      "Horns and hooves" - help you! hi
                      1. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 15 August 2019 12: 16
                        0
                        The mafia kills, which means it is legitimate. Bravo!

                        Show me where I said that. You, as always, came up with something yourself and attribute it to others.
                        You have an idea of ​​the Sicilian mafia from the films that the mafia has reduced only to a form of organized crime. And the members of the Sicilian organization began to be called Mafiusi ("cool") (then this word was transformed into the familiar modern Mafiozo) precisely because of artistic culture, and initially they were actually called uomo di Rispetto ("respected"). Functions of the mafia in Sicily (according to Hess's research): protection of property, order and life; mediation and settlement; support for Sicily's traditional moral order and social integration. Murder is just a tool and has been resorted to. The state also uses such an instrument.
                        What you consider to be the Sicilian mafia in Sicily (again thanks to popular culture) is the American mafia. For her, the Sicilians of the United States are "very grateful" from the age of 43 and until now, I have heard many "flattering" epithets.
                        By the way, Sicilians and other Italians are a very big difference. Did not know?

                        Of course I know. I have never equated the northern and southern Italians.
                        This is proof, yes ...

                        Opinion from the source? Of course.
                        Remember, remember: legal power is legal .. law lol (for the law = power, in your opinion).

                        This is not our way. This is with Ozhegov. He himself does not like such a clumsy explanation in the dictionary - he misleads people.
                        And the "Union of the Sword and the Plowshare" is an absolutely legitimate organization (in your opinion), for it was recognized as the authority of Kisa, Elena Stanoslavovna, Nikesha, Kizlyarsky, etc.

                        You can laugh as much as you like. But it is. That's just legitimacy does not make it legal. What am I trying to tell you in what account? You do not understand the essence of concepts.
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 15 August 2019 12: 43
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Show me where I said that. You, as always, came up with something yourself and attribute it to others.

                        Poh = that:
                        Quote: A vile skeptic
                        the mafia decides.

                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        You have an idea of ​​the Sicilian mafia from films that have reduced the mafia to only a form of organized crime. And the members of the Sicilian organization began to be called Mafiusi ("cool") (then this word was transformed into the familiar modern Mafiozo) precisely because of artistic culture, and initially they were actually called uomo di Rispetto ("respected"). Functions of the mafia in Sicily (according to Hess's research): protection of property, order and life; mediation and settlement;

                        fool Yeah:
                        Mafia (Italian: mafia) - criminal a community that formed in Sicily in the second half of the 1th century and subsequently extended its activity to large economically developed cities of the USA [XNUMX] and some other countries. It is an association ("family") criminal groupshaving a common organization, structure and code of conduct (omertu [2]).
                        CRIMINAL community, getting it? And not no "protection of order" Or rather, the gangster order, they do, they observe. You are about him, apparently. But for YOU it is only "order.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Of course I know. I have never equated the northern and southern Italians.

                        So do not cite Italians as an example "in general"
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Opinion from the source? Of course.

                        OBS-only for you "primary source"
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        This is not our way.

                        No, exactly IN YOUR:
                        Vile skeptic = Law is synonymous with power
                        YOU have "legal power", turned into ... legal law. belay
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And the "Union of the Sword and the Plowshare" is an absolutely legitimate organization (in your opinion), for it was recognized as the authority of Kisa, Elena Stanoslavovna, Nikesha, Kizlyarsky, etc.

                        You can laugh as much as you like. But it is.

                        Still: YOU and Lokot Republic are legitimate, and ROA with RONA and SS with SA and Gestapo and so on. Well done! fool
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        That's just legitimacy does not make it legal.

                        Do not carry nonsense: for Kissa and Vlad she was absolutely legal.
                      3. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 15 August 2019 13: 37
                        0
                        Poh = that:
                        Quote: A vile skeptic
                        the mafia decides.

                        In the original (mine):
                        "Because the people with their problems go not to the state bodies, but to the local capomafia. Because the state bodies cannot solve the human problem, but the mafia does."
                        Your sick fantasy:
                        "Mafia kills, so it is legitimate."
                        Where is the word that solving problems = kills?
                        fool yeah:

                        Knock yourself. And do not argue with me, but with Genner Hess, who explored the mafia. And he showed that this is primarily a subculture peculiar to Sicily and only then - an organization.
                        Naturally, she’s criminal, since she’s an illegal illegal dash! But legality is not equal to legitimacy, whether it reaches you or not.
                        If the Wikipedia article had been read further than the first sentence, then perhaps they would have read "the structure that regulates relations in Sicilian society", "Often, criminal gangs gave loans to poor peasants in installments, settled conflicts between merchants, etc. Thus, social base for the future emergence of the mafia itself. "And if, instead of a stupid argument, you decided to read the authors I mentioned, it would be generally good.
                        So do not cite Italians as an example "in general"
                        OBS-only for you "primary source"

                        Sicilian, because he is a southern Italian, does not cease to be a citizen of the country. Or you just want to find fault with something. Especially for you, I explain - I talked with the Sicilians on the topic of the Sicilian mafia. And he communicated with northerners (specifically, Breshans). Compare. And yes, in the conversation about the legitimacy of the Sicilian mafia in Sicily, the opinion of the Sicilians is the source.
                        No, exactly IN YOUR:
                        Vile skeptic = Law is synonymous with power here
                        YOU have "legal power", turned into ... legal law.

                        Again invented and attributed. In original
                        "You are straightforward looking at the DICTIONARY PHRASE. The law is HERE (in dictionary) synonymous with power, because only those vested with power can establish binding provisions, which are laws. "
                        Still: YOU and Lokot Republic are legitimate, and ROA with RONA and SS with SA and Gestapo and so on.

                        Again a lie, show me where I spoke about the legitimacy of the structures you wrote. Your conjectures are not related to my words.
                        Do not carry nonsense: for Kissa and Vlad, it was absolutely legal.

                        Why so? It even became interesting.
                      4. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 15 August 2019 15: 32
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        what problem solving = kills?

                        A very FREQUENT way to solve problems for CRIMINAL (mafia). Deny ?.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And do not argue with me, but with Genner Hess, who explored the mafia. And he showed that this is primarily a subculture peculiar to Sicily and only then - an organization.

                        You do not argue with me, with the Italian MP Leopoldo Franchetti, who traveled to Sicily and wrote one of first authoritative reports about the mafia in 1876, described the latter as an “industry of violence” and gave it the following definition:
                        "The term" mafia "means class of violent criminals ready and waiting for themselves for a name that would describe them, and, following their special character and importance in the life of Sicilian society, they are entitled to a different name than the vulgar “criminals” in other countries. ”
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        If the Wikipedia article had been read beyond the first sentence, it might have read "the structure governing relationships in Sicilian society"

                        It reads:
                        scattered among the local population bandit groupswho robbed wealthy strangers.

                        That is, the bandits. With gangster orders. Gangster order is a sign of legitimacy, yes lol
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Sicilian, because he is a southern Italian, does not cease to be a citizen of the country. Or you just want to find fault with something. Especially for you, I explain - I talked with the Sicilians on the topic of the Sicilian mafia. And he communicated with northerners (specifically, Breshans). Compare. And yes, in the conversation about the legitimacy of the Sicilian mafia in Sicily, the opinion of the Sicilians is the source.

                        I worked with Italians for a rather long time. And they talked about the mafia, for them it’s more folklore
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Again invented and attributed. In original
                        "You're looking straight at the DICTIONARY PHRASE. Law HERE (in the dictionary) synonymous with power

                        Law = power is YOUR interpretation. Stupid.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Still: YOU and Lokot Republic are legitimate, and ROA with RONA and SS with SA and Gestapo and so on.

                        Again a lie, show me where I spoke about the legitimacy of the structures you wrote.

                        MOST lazy? This you wrote:
                        Legitimate is one that is recognized by itself as a power
                        The Lokot republic was recognized as the power of its "citizens". As well as the SS-SS.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Do not carry nonsense: for Kissa and Vlad, it was absolutely legal.

                        Why so? It became even interesting

                        They recognized it as legally existing,
                      5. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 16 August 2019 15: 19
                        +1
                        1) Where is even a word that solving problems = kills?
                        2) Regarding the words of Franchetti. We do not argue about whether the mafia criminals or not. They are criminals. We argue that the people recognized the mafia as a power, that is, we argue about its legitimacy.
                        “The term“ mafia ”means a class of violent criminals, ready and waiting for themselves for a name that would describe them, and, following their special character and importance in the life of Sicilian society, they are entitled to a different name than the vulgar “criminals” in other countries. ”

                        So it turns out the mafia is important to Sicilian society. Moreover, he says that these people deserve a special name so as not to be confused with ordinary criminals (a "vulgar" criminal is not suitable for them). Oh, how inconvenient it turned out)))
                        I will say more - if you heard about co-optation, you would understand why such words arose at all at the deputy. Giotti wrote in 1876:
                        A government that is not able to fight the mafia, overtake it and punish it,
                        entered into a conspiracy with criminals ... The most notorious scammers were granted instead of a loop around the neck with a uniform, money, and sometimes an order, they were made guardians of public safety.
                        ... instead of the declining tribal aristocracy, "the aristocracy of the criminal world was rising, recognized, caressed and revered by all».

                        3)
                        That is, the bandits.

                        What does it mean - that is? And who argues with this at all? Me not. They are gangsters.
                        4)
                        disparate groups of bandits began to emerge among the local population, who robbed wealthy strangers.

                        How interesting it turns out for you, as in Vinokur - here to read, here not to read, here to wrap the fish. Why wasn’t the whole paragraph inserted?
                        These groups often shared their loot with fellow villagers than gained their support and assistance. Gradually among the local population attitude towards bandits became more tolerant. Often, criminal groups gave installments loans to poor peasants, settled conflicts between merchants, etc. Thus, formed a social base for the future emergence of the mafia itself.

                        The future of the mafia, you know? here are those robbing bandits, this is not a mafia, they became a mafia when they got a social base among the population.
                        5)
                        Gangster order is a sign of legitimacy, yes

                        Only you. You are trying hard to transfer the rails to the fact that they are bandits. I repeat for the hundredth time - no one denies this. Only a bandit - not a bandit - is a category of legality (legality). And it has nothing to do with legitimacy. It is like the legality and legitimacy of pirate republics. From the same opera. Understand these two terms and you will be happy.
                        6)
                        And they talked about the mafia, for them it’s more folklore

                        He is folklore only in the form that now everything happens differently than a hundred years ago. The mafia is not behaving right now like the movies show. Only. Brothers from the 90s are also folklore for us. Just organized crime has changed form, but this does not mean that the content has disappeared. And I also think that those who spoke to you would not hang out a banner with such content from their windows. Keep away from sin. That somehow seems to me like that.
                        7)
                        The Lokot republic was recognized as the power of its "citizens". As well as the SS-SS.

                        What citizens recognized her ?! From Wikipedia - "the actions of the parties in the district were in the nature of a civil war"
                        with the help of terror as a way of combating partisans, the actions of Kaminsky’s formations were aimed at population split occupied territories, to foment war between those who were mobilized into the "people's militia" and those who supported the partisans. It was very useful for the occupiers.
                        In reports, Kaminsky wrote about the scale of punitive and “preemptive” operations, and I quote - operations on "at the construction site" local population on more loyalty in relation to the occupying forces. This is how the RONA authorities recognized that the population had to be "tuned" in the following ways to obedience:
                        Over 10 thousand people were shot, hanged and tortured, including 203 people who were burned alive. 24 villages and 7300 collective farm yards were completely burned, 767 public and cultural institutions were destroyed. From only one Brasov district of the Bryansk region, 7 thousand people were hijacked to work in Germany. Property of terrorists confiscated

                        Thus recognized the Lokot Republic that throughout its existence they fought with it. About ROA, RONA, SD, SA and the Gestapo in general, by the checkout, okay, they would write about the Committee of the Peoples of Russia, there at least somehow you can still pull an owl onto the globe.
                        They recognized it as legally existing.

                        Where? Quote?
                        They could recognize her whatever.
                        “Legality is a way of functioning of public administration and its bureaucratic apparatus, characterized by the subordination of administrative activities only to the law, as the highest legal norm. O. Mayer »
                        Therefore, the legality of something in the universe of the book of Ilf and Petrov was determined only by the laws of the RSFSR, and not by personal Wishlist.
                        For a snack on your legitimacy, read the definitions until you understand the difference with legality
                        “Legitimacy is the ability of a system to create and support in people the belief that existing political institutions are the best possible for society. CM. Lipset H. Linz. "
                        “Legitimacy ... arises not because of the law emanating from power, but because of the law of human disposition. Yu.V. Irkhin. V.D. Zotov
                        .
                      6. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 16 August 2019 16: 04
                        -2
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        1) Where is at least a word that problem solving = kills?

                        Including, therefore =
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Regarding the words of Franchetti. We do not argue about whether the mafia criminals or not. They are criminals. We argue that the people recognized the mafia as a power, that is, we argue about its legitimacy.

                        I didn't. Where is the evidence of "the majority of Sicilians"?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        So it turns out mafia is important forI am a Sicilian society. Oh, how uncomfortable happened)))

                        In Russian, don’t you understand? This Mafia itself thinks so and waits, once again::
                        cruel class criminals ready and waiting for themselves a name that would describe them

                        Oh, how uncomfortable it turned out))
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I’ll say more - if you heard about co-optation, you would understand why the deputy had such words at all ..
                        if anyone didn’t know about her, then he didn’t need to know about her in order to understand why he says so: he says that he investigated
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        . It is like the legality and legitimacy of pirate republics. From the same opera. Understand these two terms and you will be happy.

                        You already pulled up, in a mentor tone, prophetic nonsense.
                        ONCE AGAIN, the last: bandits-gangster order-INCLUSIBILITY: such a chain. For a gangster-a priori illegitimate, i.e. unrecognized by the people, at least by the majority. Recognized by the majority, this is NON-Gangster. Bandits cannot be the majority, otherwise they are no longer bandits. Again incomprehensible?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And I also think that those who spoke to you would not hang out a banner with such content from their windows. Keep away from sin. That somehow seems to me like that.

                        One was just a Sicilian. I am a stranger to them, why should they hide?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        What citizens recognized her ?!

                        THOUSANDS have recognized the power of Kaminsky. Those. just already the "part of the population", albeit small, but having its OWN, EXCELLENT, but "power" to which you all refer.

                        Union of the sword and the Oral, supported 6 members you recognized as legitimateand here the Republic of Lokot supported thousands of Kamintsev .....- no belay lol . Do not wedge, nothing? lol
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        About ROA, RONA, SD, SS, SA and the Gestapo generally by the cash register

                        All-all to the cashier and specifically to you: they were recognized by MILLIONS of SS men, traitors and Germans. Once recognized, then legitimate is YOUR postulates. Delusional.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Where? Quote?
                        They could recognize her whatever.

                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        “Legality is a way of functioning of public administration and its bureaucratic apparatus, characterized by subordination of administrative activities only law, as the highest legal norm. O. Mayer »
                        Therefore, the legality of something in the universe of the book of Ilf and Petrov was determined only laws of the RSFSR, not personal Wishlist.
                        Read the law, no?
                        And the "laws" of the RSFSR Vlade and Nikesha were deeply up to., Yeah: they did not recognize either them or the RSFSR.
                        Do you recognize the Islamic state and its laws? No? That's Kizlyarsky-NO.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        For a snack on your legitimacy, read the definitions until you understand the difference with legality
                        “Legitimacy is the ability of a system to create and support in people the belief that existing political institutions are the best possible for society. CM. Lipset H. Linz. "
                        “Legitimacy ... arises not because of the law emanating from power, but because of the law of human disposition. Yu.V. Irkhin. V.D. Zotov. "

                        You quote, but YOU, alas, do not understand what is quoted .... Alas for you. hi
                      7. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 16 August 2019 17: 58
                        +1
                        Including, therefore =

                        Ah, including equal - this is one and the same. How beautiful. Blue jacket, including feather. So blue is equal to downy. So let's write it down. laughing
                        Where is the evidence of "the majority of Sicilians"?

                        What kind of kindergarten? What should it look like? All Sicilians for a century upon reaching a conscious age should give a receipt?
                        “Legitimacy ... arises not because of the law emanating from power, but because of the law of human disposition.”

                        Legitimacy does not require documentary evidence; this option is required for legality.
                        It’s Mafia herself thinks so and waits, once again

                        And the mafia thinks so, of course. Moreover, there was such a clan of Stoppalieri. So their task was just the fight against crime. Moreover, the clan acted with the approval of the authorities. So that society can see the line, where are just criminals, and where are "respected" people. This is how it happens. In the following words, Franchetti agrees with the Mafia's desire for a special title because of their significance.
                        You somehow ignored Giotti's confirming words (this is a coincidence of the same year):
                        A government that is not able to fight the mafia, overtake it and punish it,
                        entered into a conspiracy with criminals ... The most notorious scammers were granted instead of a loop around the neck with a uniform, money, and sometimes an order, they were made guardians of public safety.
                        ... instead of the declining tribal aristocracy, "the aristocracy of the underworld, recognized by all, caressed and revered by all" rose.

                        if anyone didn’t know about her, then he didn’t need to know about her in order to understand why he says so: he says that he investigated

                        Did not hear. Look for at least a causal relationship between the words of Frachetti and Giotto. Here is another reason for you to search for such a connection, - the words that the former chief prosecutor of the Palermo Court of Appeal Diego Tajani said to the deputies in the Chamber of Deputies on June 12, 1875 - "The government bodies exercise their power through an agreement with the mafia." Maybe you will understand then what Frachetti did say and why he said so.
                        ONCE AGAIN, the last: bandits-gangster order-INCLUSIBILITY: such a chain. For a gangster-a priori illegitimate, i.e. unrecognized by the people, at least by the majority. Recognized by the majority, this is NON-Gangster. Bandits cannot be the majority, otherwise they are no longer bandits. Again incomprehensible?

                        In this set of three words, no one will understand anything at all)))
                        Once again you - the gangster - is illegal, that is, not legal. Illegal is not equally illegitimate. In history, there were two examples of illegitimate communities that were legitimate - these are pirate republics and the mafia in Sicily. Nobody tells you that ALL gangster groups in the world can be such. Organized crime in Russia is illegitimate, in the USA illegitimate, in Japan illegitimate, etc. But in Sicily there were specific conditions, and there it turned out as it turned out. Moreover, I agree that after 43 years the legitimacy of the mafia in Sicily remained the inheritance of the past. You do not like this state of things, well then. If you want to argue, argue with those researchers whose names I gave.
                        One was just a Sicilian. I am a stranger to them, why should they hide?

                        So in front of a stranger from another country, it's just easy to share. But here is a poster with the text where he "puts" on the mafia, I am sure he would not have hung out of the window in his Sicily. Do not agree?
                        THOUSANDS have recognized the power of Kaminsky. Those. just already the "part of the population", albeit small, but having its OWN, EXCELLENT, but "power" to which you all refer.
                        The union of the sword and the Oral, supported by 6 members, you recognized as legitimate, but the Lokot Republic, supported by thousands of Kaminsky .....- no belay lol. Do not wedge, nothing? lol

                        What wonderful words. And now we remember the beginning of the dispute. Where there was a question of legitimacy in the civil speech. I clearly wrote that one cannot speak of legitimacy where there is an armed struggle for power. This means that one cannot speak of legitimacy in the "Lokot Republic" either, since there is an armed struggle for power there. I do not contradict myself anywhere. And there is no legitimacy, and there.
                        6 members (100%) of the Union of the sword and screaming recognized its power. Those who were not against this power were not among them, there was no struggle for power. Therefore, again, everything converges)))
                        Read the law, no?
                        And the "laws" of the RSFSR Vlade and Nikesha were deeply up to., Yeah: they did not recognize either them or the RSFSR.
                        Do you recognize the Islamic state and its laws? No? That's Kizlyarsky-NO.

                        Great question. I don't admit it. Because I am not under the jurisdiction of this "state", because I am not on their territory and they do not have power over me.
                        All of the above is the opposite of the situation with the RSFSR and Vlad and Nikesha. Therefore, the laws could be "deeply" for them, but if they were violated, "deeply" would be a penetrative system. This is another example of the difference between "legality and legitimacy". In general, one cannot look at these things one-sidedly. Example.
                        From the point of view of LDNR, power in Russia is legal and legitimate.
                        From the point of view of LDNR, power in Ukraine is illegal and illegitimate.
                        From the point of view of Russia, power in LDNR is illegal and legitimate.
                        From the point of view of Russia, power in Ukraine is legal and illegitimate.
                      8. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 17 August 2019 10: 19
                        -3
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Ah, including equal - this is one and the same. How beautiful.

                        That's right, because killing is one way to solve
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Blue jacket, including feather. So blue is equal to downy.

                        nope: there are jackets, including.: blue, black, gray. There are jackets, including: down, synthetic winterizer, wool. Write it down. yes Maybe when and ... No.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        What kind of kindergarten? What should it look like? All Sicilians for a century upon reaching a conscious age should give a receipt?

                        belay YOU stated about ... "the majority of the Sicilians". PROVE it. You can not? Into the furnace then!
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        You somehow ignored Giotti’s confirming words.

                        but how was it to squeal? he said nothing
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Illegal is not equally illegitimate. In history, there were two examples of illegitimate communities that were legitimate - these are pirate republics and the mafia in Sicily.

                        legitimacy also defines (establishes) legality: pirates have their own LAWS. and illegal for them there are already all the other "legalists" who are legal only at home
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        But here is a poster with the text where he "puts" on the mafia, I am sure he would not have hung out of the window in his Sicily. Do not agree?

                        I do not know. He was strange, very sharp in words, deeds ...
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        What wonderful words. Now remember the beginning of the argument. Where there was talk of legitimacy in civilian matters. I clearly wrote that one cannot talk about legitimacy where there is an armed struggle for power.

                        Dear Timur, well, you wrote something completely different, how so? We read:
                        Legitimate is one that recognized themselves as a power. Therefore, the above the only legitimate group of people during the civil war may not be true.

                        those. you said oh many legitimate authorities. Now, no longer .... not a single belay
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        This means that one cannot speak of legitimacy in "Lokotskaya Respublika" either, since there is an armed struggle for power there. I do not contradict myself anywhere. And there is no legitimacy, and there.

                        1. within the republic itself is NO struggle for power,
                        2. But there are:
                        Vile skeptic - one recognized power over oneself

                        those. You are completely contradicting yourself.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        6 members (100%) of the Union of the sword and screaming recognized its power. Those who were not against this power were not among them, there was no struggle for power. Therefore, again, everything converges)))

                        Kizlyarsky - did not admit (escaped) - does not converge.
                        But in the SS, CA, etc. converges (in your opinion): there 100% of the members recognized their power, which means that in your opinion they ... are legitimate. belay
                        You see, WHERE have you driven yourself?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Great question. I don't admit it. Because I am not under the jurisdiction of this "state", because I am not on their territory and they do not have power over me.

                        Yes, do not give a damn about your non-recognition of IG: they believe that you are on their territory and jurisdiction.. Doesn't it occur to you?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        You can’t look at these things at one side. Example.
                        From the point of view of LDNR, power in Russia is legal and legitimate.
                        From the point of view of LDNR, power in Ukraine is illegal and illegitimate.
                        From the point of view of Russia, power in LDNR is illegal and legitimate.
                        From the point of view of Russia, power in Ukraine is legal and illegitimate.

                        . Nonsense: everyone inside the state does not care what others think. We talked about legitimacy / legality INSIDE some kind of community. And there is legitimacy and determines legality by setting its own laws.

                        Summary: MOST people determine legitimacy. And from this point of view there are no absurd (like yours) legitimacy of the Union of the sword, Lokot. rep and other gangs of angel.
                        The majority was objectively revealed in the election of the CSS, which determined legitimacy and legality of the CSS and the Russian state

                        perhaps the point.
                      9. Town Hall
                        Town Hall 15 August 2019 12: 55
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        ... And the members of the Sicilian organization began to be called Mafiusi ("cool")

                        Where did you read this nonsense?
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        familiar modern mafiozo

                        Generally correctly spelled-Mafioso
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        uomo di Rispetto ("dear").

                        Actually-Uomini d'onore ...

                        Have you ever been to Italy in your life?)
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        What you consider to be the Sicilian Mafia in Sicily (again thanks to popular culture) is the American Mafia. For her, the Sicilians of the United States are "very grateful" from the age of 43 to this day, I have heard many "flattering" epithets

                        Masterpiece .... Check out well where you spent your holidays for the last 20 years exactly .. it’s definitely not Italy was .. You were deceived ..
                      10. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 15 August 2019 14: 18
                        +1
                        Generally correctly spelled-Mafioso

                        You are right.
                        Where did you read this nonsense?

                        This, as you say, "nonsense" you yourself can read from Catanzaro. If Wikipedia is more familiar, then, as it turns out, this is also there.
                        Actually-Uomini d'onore ...

                        I did not understand the claim. So, in your opinion, they called those who are now called mafioso, or so, in your opinion, "dear is translated?
                        And even so, the series was like this - Un uomo di rispetto, do not remember, with Placido)))
                        Well, again, argue with Catanzaro.
                        Have you ever been to Italy in your life?)
                        Masterpiece .... Check out well where you spent your holidays for the last 20 years exactly .. it’s definitely not Italy was .. You were deceived ..

                        How funny you are.
                        But in essence, what is the written claim?
                      11. Town Hall
                        Town Hall 15 August 2019 14: 44
                        0
                        In essence, what you have written, you have never been to Italy in life and don’t know anything about the mafia ... I don’t need to argue with anyone. I have been living in Italy for 20 years
                      12. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 15 August 2019 14: 49
                        +2
                        Your "assumptions" don't bother me.
                        Well, you live in Italy. AND? Claims to be written will be voiced? I haven’t seen anything yet.
                      13. Town Hall
                        Town Hall 15 August 2019 15: 03
                        -1
                        I have already voiced claims. You have declared yourself as a connoisseur of the Italian and American mafias. But you do not have minimal knowledge of at least basic things about them. You are no longer aware of the history of the mafia, its origins, development and decline. poor translations of the Italian television series of the early 80s ... By the way, the correct name of the actor is Placido and not Placido. Placido is an opera singer from Spain .. Domingo who
                      14. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 15 August 2019 15: 31
                        +2
                        For now, all you can do is show where which letter is more correct to pronounce. And I do not argue with that. But this is what is called nitpicking, not specificity. If I behaved the same way, I would say that the series is from the 90s, not the 80s. And what was written above was not taken from the series, naturally, it was mentioned only as information for consideration.
                        When you say what you think is wrong, and on the basis of what you think it is, then we will continue the conversation. If you show that the authors I mentioned to Olgovich and you, the authors are wrong, honor and praise to you. And in a personal message I will send you some photos from Italy. Enough conscience, apologize for what is called slander.
                      15. Town Hall
                        Town Hall 15 August 2019 15: 37
                        -1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        . If I behaved the same way, I would say that the series is from the 90s, not the 80s.


                        Octopus ”(ital. La Piovra - octopus, octopus) - a 1984 television serial film about the struggle of the Italian law enforcement and judicial authorities with the Sicilian mafia and corruption in the highest echelons of power. Co-production of Italy, France and Germany. The premiere took place on March 11, 1984. The series gained immense popularity in Europe (including the USSR), in the sequel 9 more mini-series were shot
                      16. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 15 August 2019 15: 43
                        +2
                        And they all bore the same name with further numbering.
                        and "Un uomo di rispetto" in 93, about which I wrote, has nothing to do with them.
                      17. Town Hall
                        Town Hall 15 August 2019 15: 51
                        -1
                        Quote: A vile skeptic
                        And they all bore the same name with further numbering.
                        and "Un uomo di rispetto" in 93, about which I wrote, has nothing to do with them.

                        This is the problem. You take the name of the film and pass it off as reality. In reality, members of the mafia (and in fact the name of the organization is Cosa Nostra) are called uomini d'onore. A man of honor, literally translated). These are people who have passed the rite of passage-oath. , a drop of blood from a finger, an icon burning in the hands ..
                        Speaking of the spread of the mafia in Sicily. During its heyday (mid-70s-early 80s), the maximum number of mafiosi was about 5000 people. With a population of Sicily at 5.000.000.
                        About 43 years is not even funny.
                      18. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 16 August 2019 12: 26
                        +2
                        This is the problem. You take the name of the film and pass it off as reality.

                        There is no problem. The name for the film was chosen quite understandably - the phrase that everyone who hears it evokes quite certain sustainable associations from life, interested in viewing. Marketing. The film about the relationship of two young people of different social strata against the background of a shipwreck was not called something like "Love of Jack and Rose", although this is the main line of the film. People would not care about such a movie, even knowing that these Rose and Jake will be sailing on the Titanic. They called it "Titanic". And interest has been won. So it is with this Italian serial.
                        Raimondo Catanzaro also turns out to pass off uomo di Rispetto as reality in his book, which for some reason he decided to call, by the way also "Men of Respect: A Social History of the Sicilian Mafia".
                        And Nigel Cowthorn in "The Mammoth Book of the Mafia" claims to be reality
                        “Men of honor” were essential to Sicilian society in their capacities as brokers,
                        facilitators and arbiters. But to serve as a middleman, a “man of respect” needed
                        more than personal courage ...
                        ... Those who did such favors were variously referred to as “men of honor”, ​​“men
                        of respect ”or“ men of order ”.

                        Paoli can be attributed to reality issuers. Or is it simpler and could it be that along with your option there is mine too?
                        Speaking of the spread of the mafia in Sicily. During its heyday (mid-70s-early 80s), the maximum number of mafiosi was about 5000 people. With a population of Sicily at 5.000.000.

                        All estimates of abundance are so approximate that one should rely on them with caution. A simple example. The first major success of "Antimafia" in 1966-67, when these guys were tried

                        In the province of Palermo alone, more than 700 mafists were arrested, more than a thousand were sent to administrative exile, and 6500 people were placed under police surveillance or were warned in court that they should be honest workers
                        life.

                        In general, the fact that you show the "insignificance of the mafia" on the basis of their small number is credited by the researchers as an indicator of the effectiveness of the organization.
                        About 43 years is not even funny.

                        Yes, for example, in 1947 in Portella della Ginestra it was not funny on May 1. As on June 22 in general throughout the province.
      2. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 14 August 2019 15: 30
        +4
        Quote: Olgovich
        then the only legitimate state of Russia

        “This (Soviet-SM) was and is the only possible ideologically united government in Russia.
        Doubtful adventurers tormenting Russia with the support of the Western powers,
        - Denikin, Kolchak, Wrangel and others ... essentially, it's just
        bandits "(H. Wells).
        Even from a formal point of view, the Soviet government was ONLY legitimate by virtue of the majority of popular votes in the elections to the Constituent Assembly ... fellow
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 15 August 2019 06: 38
          0
          Quote: Sahar Medovich
          (G. Wells).

          Fantast. You need another site
          Quote: Sahar Medovich
          Even from a formal point of view, ONLY the Soviet government was legitimate by virtue of the majority of popular votes in the elections to the Constituent Assembly ..

          This is the "majority of the popular vote" lol - translate into Russian
          1. Sugar Honeyovich
            Sugar Honeyovich 15 August 2019 12: 36
            0
            Quote: Olgovich
            Science fiction

            Witness
            Quote: Olgovich
            translate into Russian

            I’m translating it from Russian specifically for you: in the elections to the US, the most votes were cast for the Socialist Revolutionaries and Bolsheviks. Conclusion: of all the governments that declared themselves at that time, the ONLY legitimate was in Petrograd, and later in Moscow. A criminal who came to power in Omsk by a coup should certainly be deprived of power and prosecuted.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 15 August 2019 12: 55
              -2
              Quote: Sahar Medovich
              Witness

              Fiction writer, dreamer, storyteller, idiot
              Quote: Sahar Medovich
              I’m translating it from Russian specifically for you: in the elections to the US, the most votes were cast for the Socialist Revolutionaries and Bolsheviks.

              Nope: for the Socialist-Revolutionaries, MUCH MORE than for the Bolsheviks.
              Quote: Sahar Medovich
              Conclusion: of all the governments that declared themselves at that time, the ONLY legitimate was in Petrograd

              Ignoramus and ignoramus, to you:
              Decree of the II All-Russian Congress of Soviets
              on the formation of a workers 'and peasants' government

              26 October 8 (1917 November) XNUMX

              All-Russian Congress of Soviets of Workers, Soldiers and 20
              peasant deputies decides:
              To educate for governing the country, BEFORE CONSCIOUSNESS
              CONSTITUENT MEETING, TEMPORARY
              workers and peasants
              government


              Those. EVEN in the Bolsheviks, SNK-were legal ONLY TO US!
              With overclocking, it is illegal even for them.

              How much can you teach, huh?
              1. Sugar Honeyovich
                Sugar Honeyovich 15 August 2019 15: 15
                +1
                Quote: Olgovich
                Nope: for the Socialist-Revolutionaries, MUCH MORE than for the Bolsheviks.

                Yes: there are more for the Social Revolutionaries, for the Bolsheviks, for the Bolsheviks much more than for the Cadets. But for the main socialist parties: the Socialist Revolutionaries and the Bolsheviks are more than for all the others combined. You need to learn something. From the basics.
                An ignoramus, an ignoramus, a loafer who does not want to learn, you:
                The All-Russian Congress of Soviets of Workers', Soldiers' and Peasants' Deputies resolves:
                To form for the administration of the country, BEFORE THE CONVOCATION OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL ASSEMBLY, the TEMPORARY workers 'and peasants' government. "
                The elections to the CSS were held; its convocation took place. It turned out that in coexistence with the Soviets it is unnecessary, but in a practical sense, it is useless. The main requirements of the people The Soviet government undertook to decide (and decided!) Independently. That is, as a result of the convening of the Constitutional Council, the Soviet government became not temporary, but permanent. Well and (see above) the ONLY LEGITIMATE.
                Quote: Olgovich
                How much can you teach, huh?


                I understood the question, I answer: You need to be taught as much as you need. Although obviously not oats in the horse, but I do not have patience. You are not the only one ... student lol
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 16 August 2019 11: 01
                  -2
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  But for the main socialist parties: the Socialist Revolutionaries and the Bolsheviks are more than for all the others combined

                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  You need to learn something. From the basics.

                  WHO has ... denied? belay lol But socialist versus socialist are enormous: it’s not without reason that you then ALL ALL Social Revolutionaries drained to the root
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich

                  The All-Russian Congress of Soviets of Workers', Soldiers' and Peasants' Deputies resolves:
                  To educate for governing the country, BEFORE THE CONVENTION OF THE CONSTITUENT MEETING, TEMPORARY Workers 'and Peasants' Government ".

                  1.Finally learned? Maladezz!
                  2. So, now learn this too:
                  The preposition DO is used when indicating time limit"
                  . TEMPORARY LIMITS - chop the knot!
                  Now you can understand the meaning of the written: SNK exists only BEFORE US, ALL! Further, the business of the US is to lead, adopt laws, etc.
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  It turned out that in coexistence with the Soviets it is unnecessary, but in a practical sense, it is useless.

                  Who found this out? and who authorized these "investigators" to "find out?" fool Not their dog business. By the way, how did they find out, spat on .., that is, on the finger? lol
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  The main requirements of the people The Soviet government undertook to decide (and decided!) Independently.

                  Yeah and you take it, why not? lol NOBODY instructed him to decide ANYTHING. According to his statement, it ceased to exist from the first minute of the CSS
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  That is as a result of the convocation of the CSS The Soviet government was not temporary, but permanent.

                  The result of any convocation is DOCUMENTS: here, submit the US DECISION about this, liar. Where is it? And they did not write a handful of illegitimate arrogant liars, hypocrites, criminals who brazenly deceived even their voters. Promising them to work in the CSS, they ... killed him, i.e. just betrayed them and therefore became illegitimate. They did NOT entrust them with the outbreak of civil war!
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  Although clearly not a horse oatsbut I don’t have patience ..

                  Shaw, even horses, resist what you shove them? yes lol
                  Think about what you feed him about. hi
                  1. Sugar Honeyovich
                    Sugar Honeyovich 16 August 2019 17: 16
                    0
                    Nobody denied ... except you. It took my lessons to make you stop denying the obvious. Socialist socialist strife, that's true. That is why the Socialist-Revolutionaries eventually deflated, even though there were more of them. Incidentally, they were in the majority in the elections because they partly (the "Left SRs") joined the Bolsheviks on the issue of the war. Otherwise, it is not known whether they would have become leaders with their "to the bitter end". Despite the "land to the peasants". And it was not we who destroyed them, but you. In the "Republic of Irtysh". But it didn't help you lol So the Bolsheviks were the most legitimate of all then existing. And many were entrusted to them by many. In the Soviets, perfectly replacing the CSS. Nobody entrusted them with the Civil War, but it was not they who unleashed it. This is known to all, ignoramus.
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 17 August 2019 10: 36
                      -2
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      No one denied ... except you.

                      Prove liar yes
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      Incidentally, they were in the majority in the elections because partly (the "Left Socialist Revolutionaries") joined the Bolsheviks on the issue of war.

                      Yeah, why didn’t they directly vote for these cherubs? lol
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      And it was not we who destroyed them, but you.

                      To school! . Take an interest in the fate of ALL Social Revolutionary leaders in the USSR.
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      So the Bolsheviks were the most legitimate of all then existing.

                      Nope-ALL the elections they LOSED
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      And many were entrusted to them by many.

                      Nobody and nothing
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      . In the Soviets, perfectly replacing the CSS.

                      We see, we see the borders of the 17th century and the Russian Cross, in just .... 70 years of "achievements". NEVER in the history of Russia have there been such SCARY "achievements"
                      Quote: Sahar Medovich
                      Nobody entrusted them with the Civil War, but it was not they who unleashed it.

                      They unleashed, having dispersed the Constitutional Council: from what fright did the TENS MILLIONS who voted for the Constitutional Assembly should have agreed that they had crushed their choice?
                      A simple question, but you can’t answer lol
                      1. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 18 August 2019 08: 19
                        0
                        Sclerosis? Denied, Kolchak’s bandustan was called the only legitimate state. fool
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Take an interest in the fate of ALL Social Revolutionary leaders in the USSR

                        Interested in a liar. That's why I affirm.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        ALL elections they LOSED

                        Lying. Another stupid.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Nobody and nothing

                        Lying. Another stupid.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        NEVER in the history of Russia have such SCARY "achievements"

                        Lying. They were even worse.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        No one denied ... except you.

                        Prove liar yes
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Incidentally, they were in the majority in the elections because partly (the "Left Socialist Revolutionaries") joined the Bolsheviks on the issue of war.

                        Yeah, why didn’t they directly vote for these cherubs? lol
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And it was not we who destroyed them, but you.

                        To school! . Take an interest in the fate of ALL Social Revolutionary leaders in the USSR.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        So the Bolsheviks were the most legitimate of all then existing.

                        Nope-ALL the elections they LOSED
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And many were entrusted to them by many.

                        Nobody and nothing
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        . In the Soviets, perfectly replacing the CSS.

                        We see, we see the borders of the 17th century and the Russian Cross, in just .... 70 years of "achievements". NEVER in the history of Russia have there been such SCARY "achievements"
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Nobody entrusted them with the Civil War, but it was not they who unleashed it.

                        They unleashed, having dispersed the Constitutional Council: from what fright did the TENS MILLIONS who voted for the Constitutional Assembly should have agreed that they had crushed their choice? lol

                        But they did not agree, but rose against the whites - the enemies of the Russian people and their choice. The result is logical, a liar and an ignoramus.
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 18 August 2019 11: 17
                        -2
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Sclerosis? Denied, Kolchak’s bandustan was called the only legitimate state.

                        We are talking about this:
                        Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                        But for the main socialist parties: the Socialist Revolutionaries and the Bolsheviks are more than for all the others combined
                        This is the case. What about you?
                        Oh, it seems guessed: the Bolsheviks-also legitimate, since they also voted for them lol
                        Then so (according to yours):

                        1. The Russian statelegitimatelyas the RSFSR
                        2. UNR-legitimate (for UKResers also voted)
                        3. Georgia, too, for the same reason
                        4. All national borderline "states" are legitimate - for the same reason

                        maladezz! good lol
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Interested in a liar. That's why I affirm.
                        Quote: Olgovich

                        You don’t even know them, otherwise you would be silent in a rag: these are only the most famous leaders who were tortured and destroyed before 1941:
                        Maria Spiridonova,
                        Majorov
                        Avram Gotz
                        Evgeny Mikhailovich Timofeev
                        M.I. Handelman
                        D. Donskoy
                        Evgenia Ratner
                        I. L. Gershtein
                        Nikolay Ivanov
                        M. Likhach
                        Sergey Morozov
                        Arkady Altovsky
                        Elena Ivanova
                        Vladimir Agapov

                        Remember., Ignoramus!
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Lying. Another stupid

                        It has already been suggested to you: to show, to name the popular elections won by the Bolsheviks: dates, parties, etc. And you, once and in the bushes. And again, into the bushes lol
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Lying. Another stupid.

                        Nobody from the people and did not entrust them anything. Because elections are a loser. Show the same "errands" lol
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        NEVER in the history of Russia have such SCARY "achievements"

                        Lying. They were even worse.

                        Let’s show the big ones: where in History there was SUCH a starvation before this time, as in peaceful 32-33.
                        Where during the PEACEFUL year (8.1937-8.1938) several HUNDREDS of thousands of citizens were shot, etc.
                        Come on, the whole world is in front of you - look for it!
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        But they did not agree, but rose against the whites - the enemies of the Russian people and their choice.

                        You AGAIN did not answer the SIMPLE question: with what fright TENS of MILLIONS who voted for the Constitutional Assembly should have agreed that the Bolsheviks crushed their choice?
                        WHY, huh?
                        If Your selected by yours, kicked out, would you also agree (yes / no)?
                        Answer directly without evading YES / NO!
                      3. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 18 August 2019 15: 08
                        0
                        Aha, are we talking about "this" now? And about "that" already not? Wagged, wagged ...
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Oh, it seems guessed: the Bolsheviks are also legitimate

                        Finally! Still, what does my school mean! EVEN Olgovich began to think correctly. Only to tell more precisely: Soviet power was legitimate, since it was chosen by the majority of the people. The rest are not. You have problems with logic, as well as with history. More to teach and learn!
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Maria Spiridonova,
                        Majorov
                        Avram Gotz

                        And the elephant, as they say ... in the sense of: Chernov ... Did the truth really not know about him? Or, as always, lying ineptly?
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        show, call the popular elections won by the Bolsheviks

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Show the same "errands"

                        Especially for you again: the Bolsheviks were among the winners in the elections in the Constitutional Court and multiple winners in the elections to the Soviets. Because they carried out the main popular instructions: to end the war and abolish private ownership of land. Plus other good deeds such as the elimination of estate division.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Come on, show more:

                        Easy, ignoramus: a major disaster occurred in 1917-21, when supporters of the U.S. ruined the Russian state, and after losing the elections to it (U.S.), they unleashed a civil war. It is a blessing for Russia that the Bolsheviks took over the leadership and restored the country in almost the same size.
                        Just as they achieved the cessation of famines of the type of 1933, which until then were an ordinary occurrence.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You AGAIN did not answer the SIMPLE question

                        I answered very clearly. Do you need a translation from Russian again? The Bolsheviks did not trample, but fulfilled the people's choice. Once again: done! Consequently, tens of millions could not believe that the Bolsheviks trampled on their choice, since their choice was not the US as such, but SOCIALISM. And who and how will provide it to them was, in principle, no difference. There were, of course, "principled" ones, but there were just a handful of them. The exception that proves the rule.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        If your chosen ones were kicked out, would you also agree (yes / no)?

                        See above: if those who kicked ours out would do OUR business, I would YES, I agreed. It doesn’t matter who, if only the matter is done as it should.
                        This is clear?
                      4. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 19 August 2019 09: 28
                        -2
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Finally! Still, what does my school mean! EVEN Olgovich began to think correctly.

                        Translated your tongue-tied to a normal language
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Only to tell more precisely: Soviet power was legitimate, since she was chosen by most of the people. The rest are not.

                        NEVER chose, liar: call the election. But the Social Revolutionaries chose the majority, and they are legitimate
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And the elephant, as they say ... in the sense of

                        Chernov did NOT stay in the USSR, and therefore survived. I spoke of those who remained in the country and were brutally tortured and destroyed. Remember last names?
                        Responsible for killing them!
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Especially for you again: the Bolsheviks were among the winners in the elections in the CSS

                        They LOST, and much more, to the Socialist-Revolutionaries, what kind of "winners"? lol Look even at the composition of the CSS at its opening — the Bolsheviks with the Left Socialist Revolutionaries — in the deep lol -and this despite the wild terror, pressure, prohibitions, arrests that the Bolsheviks made against the people's deputies.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        multiple winners in the elections to the Soviets.

                        Again general words Once again I propose: NAME these "elections", chatter: to which bodies, dates, participating parties,% of the participating voters,% received by the Bolsheviks and other parties.

                        At the same time show the owls. election laws: UNIVERSAL, SECRET, EQUAL, FREE, DIRECT, COMPETITIVE. This has never been
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Easy, ignoramus: a greater disaster occurred in 1917-21

                        ONCE AGAIN: where in the world, once SPECIFICALLY-IN PEACE TIME, finally PEACE TIME has arrived! there were more disasters than these:
                        where in History there was SUCH a starvation before this time, as in peaceful 32-33
                        Where during the PEACEFUL year (8.1937-8.1938) several HUNDREDs of thousands of their citizens were shot, etc.

                        List:
                        1.
                        2.
                        3.
                        ...
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        US supporters ruined the Russian state, and losing elections to it

                        1.You ruined, see. 15 States on the territory of Russia created by YOU from 1917 to 1940: we live on those borders. So? SO!
                        2. The election won: 370 mandates were received by the Right Socialist-Revolutionaries and Centrists, 175 - Bolsheviks, 40 - Left Social Revolutionaries, 17 - Cadets, 15 - Mensheviks: You are in deep lol -twice smaller
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        It is a blessing for Russia that the Bolsheviks took over the leadership and restored the country in almost the same size.

                        Catastrophe: the borders of the 17th century and the Russian Cross are Bolshevik achievements: YOU ruled.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Just as they achieved the cessation of famines of the type of 1933, which until then were an ordinary occurrence.

                        NEVER, ANYWHERE such starvation deaths as in 1933 were NOT.
                        Or name them specifically: dates, country, victims
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        I answered very clearly. Do you again need a translation from Russian? The Bolsheviks did not trample, but performed the choice of the people. Once again: executed!

                        Show -WHERE in the process of election of the CSS people instructed ..... ACCELERATE CSS. Talking already ...
                        NOBODY in the election of this - did not charge. Moreover, the Bolsheviks and their voters were brazenly deceived: they promised them work in the CSS, and they fired ... a civil war.
                        Trampled the will of tens of millions of voters who votedand 370 right-wing Socialist-Revolutionaries, etc.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Consequently, tens of millions could not believe that the Bolsheviks trampled their choice, because their choice was not US as such, but SOCIALISM. And who and how will provide it to them was, in principle, no difference.

                        The election was called: in CSS... Show: elections to "socialism", which everyone had their own, and completely different than the flea-shivers. Chernov has his own, Ulyanov has his own. And they voted for Chernovsky, no, for Ulyanov
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        See above: if those who kicked ours out would do OUR business, I would YES, I agreed.

                        Not yours can NOT do ..... your business, by definition, otherwise they would have been yours. They do their job. Even this does not work?
                        Therefore, the question again:
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        If your chosen ones were kicked out, would you also agree (yes / no)?

                        Answer: Yes / No !, without if and rebounds with grimaces.


                        I say: not a single figure, not a single date, not a single document (except for idle chatter) - you do not bring. Unlike me.
                        You not..... lol can lol
                      5. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 19 August 2019 17: 04
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        NEVER chose, liar: call the election. But the Social Revolutionaries chose the majority, and they are legitimate

                        Constantly choosing, a liar - first less, then more. Is it legitimate in your opinion, the one who scored more than the others without reaching an absolute majority (50% + 1 vote)? Those. if, say, eight parties scored 10%, one 9%, and one 11%, is this last legitimate? No, you really need to go to another site.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        NAME these "elections", chatter: in which bodies, dates, participating parties,% of the participating voters,% received by the Bolsheviks, other parties.

                        Easy, ignorant and empty talker:
                        In the elections to the Tomsk City Duma, 1 (14) .10.1917 out of 23463 votes cast:
                        Bolsheviks 32% - 34 seats
                        Socialist-Revolutionaries 23% - 24 places
                        Cadets 16,5% -17 seats
                        Homeowners -10% - 10 places;
                        Mensheviks - 6% - 6 places
                        Further downward (total 12 parties and public associations)
                        By your logic, only the Bolsheviks won and are legitimate here? The rest lost? wassat
                        I give you the history of the elections to the Petrograd and Moscow Soviets as homework fool
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        At the same time show the owls. election laws: UNIVERSAL, SECRET, EQUAL, FREE, DIRECT, COMPETITIVE. This has never been

                        The only true word here (already a record!): COMPETITIVE. There really weren’t such, but it’s rather a plus. And so the elections in the USSR were UNIVERSAL, SECRET, EQUAL, FREE, DIRECT, ALWAYS starting with the 1936 Constitution established. Ignoramus go to school! More on!

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        ONCE AGAIN: where in the world, once SPECIFICALLY-IN PEACE TIME, finally PEACE TIME has arrived! there were more disasters ...

                        List:
                        1.
                        2.
                        3.

                        Write down and do not pronounce more such nonsense:
                        1. India 1876-78, 1899-1900
                        2. Persia 1870-72gg.
                        3. China 1877 (this is BEFORE 1933, and 1959-61 - AFTER)
                        4. Ireland 1847
                        5. RUSSIA 1840,1872, 1880,1883,1891-93, 1911.
                        This is hunger.
                        And repression
                        To begin with, I will offer South Korea in the 1940-50s.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        The elections were called: in the CA. Show: elections to "socialism

                        Do not try to portray a bigger fool than you are. You get it no better than pretending to be a historian.
                        The ABSOLUTE majority of Russian citizens wanted socialism and chose it. What kind of power organization would implement it, they in the mass were deeply indifferent. They offered them the US - they elected socialists there, offered "All power to the Soviets" - even better. If someone offered something better than the Soviets, they would choose it. It doesn't matter what color the cat is, as long as it catches mice.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Chernov has his own, Ulyanov has his own. And for Chernovskiy, they voted for Ulyanov, no

                        Not Ulyanova, but Ulyanova, the living embodiment of illiteracy. And they voted for one and the other, a liar.

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Not yours can NOT do ..... your business, by definition, otherwise they would have been yours. They do their job. Even this does not work?

                        Something familiar words ... Someone already said this ... Yes, yes, of course, Shulgin about the Bolsheviks:
                        "And they rebuilt the army ... This is the first ... Of course, they think that they have created a socialist army that fights" in the name of the International "- but this is nonsense. It just seems to them. In fact, they have rebuilt the Russian army ...
                        And by the end of the entire revolutionary process, Russia, having lost its old army in 1917, will have a new, equally powerful ... Further ... Our main, our effective slogan is United Russia ... When Denikin left, we it’s not that they were lost, but somewhere they hid it for a while ... we turned the banner ... And who raised it, who unfurled the banner? Oddly enough, but it is so ... The banner of United Russia was actually raised by the Bolsheviks. Of course they don’t say that ...
                        And now it has become obvious that it’s sitting in Moscow, it doesn’t matter who it is, whether it be Ulyanov or Romanov (forgive me for that vile comparison), it’s forced, “Ukrainians say,” to do the work of John Kalita. Musit collects Russian lands together.

                        Summary. “Against my will, against your will” - the Bolsheviks:
                        1) restore the military power of Russia;
                        2) restore the borders of the Russian state to its natural limits;
                        3) prepare for the coming of the all-Russian autocrat ".

                        So who did whose business here? And who was "ours" or "yours"? And did anyone choose the Bolsheviks because although they were not “their” in form, they did “their” business?

                        And finally - when will you stop lying so stupidly?
                      6. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 20 August 2019 12: 10
                        -3
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Constantly choosing, a liar - first less, then more. Is it legitimate in your opinion, the one who scored more than the others without reaching an absolute majority (50% + 1 vote)? No, you really need to go to another site.

                        lol It’s time for you to go to another site on the topic of unconsciousness. You have argued: Quote:
                        Sugar Honeyovich
                        Soviet power was legitimate because it was chosen most people. The rest are not.

                        And what are you talking about? ONCE AGAIN Bolsheviks NEVER most the people did not choose: see the popular elections in the CSS.
                        By the way, PSR had MORE than half of the seats in the CSS (50 + 1). Bolsheviks in the deep lol
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        In the elections in Tomsk City Council1 (14) .10.1917 out of 23463 votes cast:


                        Provide data on Mukho-ran: it will be even more "convincing". yes
                        We are talking about the COUNTRY as a whole, and not individual cities. Russia-peasant country at 90% and did not decide the city, and the VILLAGE. And then she spat on the Bolsheviks: see the results of the election of the CSS.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And so the elections in the USSR were UNIVERSAL, SECRET, EQUAL, FREE, DIRECT, ALWAYS starting from the constitution of 1936 Mr. Shchezhe!

                        Those. acknowledge already that to 1936there were no elections. Maladets! And why did they hold power without the choice of the people, huh? Criminals agree?

                        Now after 1936:

                        1. name those who COMPETED in these "elections": how parties (which), how candidates were indicated in the ballots (do you even remember what elections are? Look at the dictionary)
                        2. Imagine how many newspapers, leaflets, radio had different parties (except one) for campaigning their programs and candidates.

                        again ... not lol can you lol
                        Those. "elections" are NOT free and WITHOUT alternative. Those. this is NOT an election. So they were to the end. I remember this wildness: the ballot for the "election" and there .... ONE "candidate". For whom ...... to vote,. eh, "smart guy"? Is this an "election" in your opinion? fool lol

                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Write down and do not pronounce more such nonsense:
                        1. India 1876-78, 1899-1900
                        2. Persia 1870-72gg.
                        3. China 1877 (this is BEFORE 1933, and 1959-61 - AFTER)
                        4. Ireland 1847
                        5. RUSSIA 1840,1872, 1880,1883,1891-93, 1911.
                        This is hunger.

                        1. In India, Persia, Ireland - there were LESS victims - and this is in the LAST CENTURY. In the USSR, in the PAST century, MORE.
                        2 In China, in the LAST century, a comparable number of the population, LESS victims
                        3. In Russia, there was NO MEMORY of such victims as they were under the Bolsheviks 1932-33, 47gg, 1921-22, never, especially in the 20th century!

                        Cut yourself a knot-on ..! And cut it up: -No in what Africa, Asia, India-in the 20th century there were no such wild deaths from starvation as during the Bolsheviks in the 20th century (except for 1960 in China, also under the Communists).
                        And-mind you-in your kingdom of the "truth" of these victims in the SSSR-did not exist (except for 21 g)
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And repression
                        To begin with, I will offer South Korea in the 1940-50s.

                        There for a year, they shot 680 fuel assemblies (Pavlov's certificate)?
                        You would be closer to EUROPE and time looking for examples, both by hunger and repression, of the country of c. You don’t want Europe, are you afraid? lol
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Do not try to portray a bigger fool than you are ..

                        You have no need-try, yes
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        The ABSOLUTE majority of Russian citizens wanted socialism and chose it. What kind of power organization would implement it, they in the mass were deeply indifferent. They offered them the US - they elected socialists there, offered "All power to the Soviets" - even better.

                        WHICH socialism? Bolshevik-NOT wanted-see elections. Your speculation for them is not needed.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Not Ulyanova, but Ulyanova, the living embodiment of illiteracy. And they voted for one and the other, a liar.

                        Yeah, those who voted for Trump voted and ... for Clinton. lol Remember: voting FOR someone means voting AGAINST others. Didn’t get it? But Ulyanov is nothing with a small letter.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Something familiar words ... Someone already said this ... Yes, yes, of course, Shulgin about the Bolsheviks:

                        When something seems to be a bad symptom: check on the Medcyclopedia.
                        You have good authority: in 1927, Shulgin participated in the work of the Eurasian Union and the “School of Fascism” under the Union of Monarchists and already confidently stated: "I am a Russian fascist."
                        leave the poor miserable puppet alone
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And did anyone choose the Bolsheviks

                        Nobody and never
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And finally - when will you stop lying so stupidly?

                        All TRUE. which you are not able to oppose ANYTHING.
                      7. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 21 August 2019 05: 20
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        ONCE AGAIN the Bolsheviks NEVER the majority of the people chose

                        Once again, a liar: the Bolsheviks were chosen by the majority of the people. Although not immediately.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Provide data on Mukho-ran: it will be even "more convincing

                        Prior to that, YOU asked for data: "to which bodies, dates, participating parties,% of participating voters,% received by the Bolsheviks, other parties." I brought the data and you are back in the bushes!
                        In Mukho-ransk it could have been anything, the main thing is that the Bolsheviks won in the elections to the UC and the Social Revolutionaries lost in the capitals and provincial cities. It was they who decided, and not the village, because the Bolsheviks won in general, despite 85% of the peasant population who needed only socialism and who would give it: RPS or RCP (b), Bolsheviks or communists, Chernov or Ulyanov (and not Ulyanov , ignorant and ignorant) - no difference.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Those. acknowledge already that before 1936 there were NOT elections.

                        Trepach, did I once claim that they were? Although they really were, but, as with the king, with restrictions. And in 1936 the restrictions were lifted and the elections became (so you know) direct, universal secret and FREE. And about the alternative, it seems, it was not quite the way many people think now ... out of ignorance. And then, yes, they didn’t spend time and folk money on whose agitators would deceive others, but chose worthy people in the team and voted either For them or AGAINST. Option is no worse than others.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Is this an "election" in your opinion?

                        Yes, this is an election and nothing else.fool
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        In India, Persia, Ireland, there were LESS victims


                        Evidence, liar! Figures and sources! Especially in relation to the population.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        and this is the year before last

                        Now - the year before last. And then, in 1933 - recently. You asked where in history there was such a starvation BEFORE this time, I replied. And again, you have nothing to object to except cheap pathetics.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        in your kingdom the "truth" of these victims in the SSSR-did not exist

                        And no wonder. If people who lived in 1933 answer hunger questions that they are hearing about him for the first time or, in the worst case, they say that this hunger was one of many that happened earlier, then you will draw certain conclusions ...
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You would be closer to EUROPE and time looking for examples, both by hunger and repression, of the country of c. You don’t want Europe, are you afraid?

                        Yeah, in Europe closer to some Monaco? Is our history limited to Europe? You are afraid. The truths are afraid. They said: such as in the USSR, there was nowhere (and not anywhere else in Europe) - that is, the whole world was meant. And now back to the bushes! In time, I gave close examples. And about Europe or, for example, the USA - in the 1930s it is quite possible that they had no better than ours. Least.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You have good authority

                        You cannot offer the best. Moreover, at that time more than one Shulgin claimed such a thing.

                        Re: You really need to go to another site. History is not yours. Here you will be the eternal loser.
                      8. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 21 August 2019 11: 43
                        -3
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Once again, a liar: the Bolsheviks were chosen by the majority of the people. Although not immediately.

                        FOR THE THIRD TIME I propose to present this "election": the date, from whom they were chosen by party parties, etc.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Prior to that, YOU asked for data: "to which bodies, dates, participating parties,% of participating voters,% received by the Bolsheviks, other parties." I brought the data and you are back in the bushes!

                        We talked about CSS, respectively, elections should be presented of same level: so-called "the Supreme Council, etc. Didn't get it again?"
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        US elections that the Bolsheviks won

                        Are you .... quite already? They LOSED in the election.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        It was they who decided, not the village,

                        Finally recognized: the overwhelming minority FORCED their will on MOST.
                        The fact that you justify social Nazism and segregation by denying the right to reason and voice to the overwhelming majority (peasantry) is not surprising
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        the peasant population, who needed only socialism, and who would give it: the RPS or the RCP (b), the Bolsheviks or the Communists, Chernov or Ulyanov (and not Ulyanov, ignorant and ignorant) - no difference

                        1. Who are you, a lover of segregation, authorized to speak for .... the peasants whom you hate and despise so much? Maybe you and the National Socialists - it makes no difference (after all, the Socialists) fool
                        2. It would not matter, they would immediately choose the Bolsheviks (with Ulyanew led, ignoramus), but sent them to. lol
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Trepach, did I once claim that they were? .

                        Were not, CORRECT. Maladets, came at last!
                        I ASK AGAIN: WHAT RIGHT had 20 years to be run by those whom NOBODY CHOOSE ?!
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And in 1936 the restrictions were lifted and the elections became (so you know) direct, universal secret and FREE. .

                        For those who hate Russian:
                        Choice - Something to choose from. Ozhegov's dictionary

                        From WHAT could you choose, a liar? WHERE is the choice ?!
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Yes, these are elections and nothing else fool .

                        It -: fool You correctly showed opposite his same statement. Bolshevik self-critic! good
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Evidence, liar! Figures and sources! Especially in relation to the population.

                        China: 3% population starved to 19th century 1870 g, India1,5 % OFF population in 19th century 1870, in the USSR, about ... 5% of the population in ...20th century!
                        You at least make a difference between the 19th century and the 20th century, as well as the difference between the colonial countries of the 100th place and the 4th economy of the world, you know?
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Now - the year before last. And then, in 1933 - recently. You asked where in history there was such a starvation BEFORE this time, I replied. And again, you have nothing to object to except cheap pathetics.

                        1. Here it is in the 19th century, the century of horses and slavery, and in the 20th century-electricity, machinery and chemistry.
                        2. YOU CONFIRMED my words, ANYWHERE!
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And no wonder. If people who lived in 1933 answer hunger questions about the first time they hear about him or, in the worst case, say that this hunger was one of many similar ones that happened before, then you will draw certain conclusions.

                        1.Not surprising, because NOT a WORD about this most terrible catastrophe of Russia is your "truthful" rulers, not gug-gu. FEARED of the truth, as of the elections: WHO would choose them after that? And the world, which could have been saved by millions, they didn’t say a WORD - what they doomed to death.
                        2. You, a liar, do not ask anyone, for there are no longer those who remember 1933
                        But there are many who remember the massive mortality and cannibalism in 1947
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Yeah, in Europe closer to some Monaco? Is our history limited to Europe?

                        Nope, it's just that Russia is ALWAYS compared with Europe: see the "works" about anything Ulyanov and other leaders. M
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        They said: such as in the USSR, there was nowhere (and not anywhere else in Europe) - that is, the whole world was meant. And now back to the bushes! In time, I gave close examples.

                        1. In the world, it was not.
                        2. "Close in time" ?! fool lol By the time of the 19th and 20th centuries, these are different civilizations and worlds, so that they know. But even then, in the 19th century there were NOT such disasters
                        3. Compare-like (for clarity). But even with the colonies of the 19th century, complete, yes
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And about Europe or, for example, the USA - in the 1930s it is quite possible that they had no better than ours. Least.

                        Imagine not the chatter, but the facts: take, for example, Germany 1933-1937 (the most negative example) for starvation and repression.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        You cannot offer the best. Moreover, at that time more than one Shulgin claimed such a thing.

                        belay lol Yes, even YOUR Chairman of the Revolutionary Military Council of the USSR Trotsky-said about you that your ears fade. And this is the one who COMPLETED your policy and regime, and not some kind of emigrant.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Re: You really need to go to another site. History is not yours. Here you will be the eternal loser.

                        Think for yourself: statements full BANKRUPT (see 91 year) - what price have? lol
                      9. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 21 August 2019 15: 37
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        I propose to present these "elections": the date from which they were chosen-parties-participants

                        See above.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Are you .... quite already? They LOSED in the election.

                        Read the full text, not half the phrase.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        WHERE is the choice ?!

                        For those who hate the Russian language: here is the choice: yes or no, for or against, to be or not to be. Do you think thinker?
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        This is:: fool You correctly showed opposite to your statement.

                        I put a mirror in front of you.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        China: 3% of the population died of starvation in the 19th century 1870, India-1,5% of the population

                        And Ireland? First of all, I asked about the number of victims, supposedly "smaller" when "there were NO such disasters."
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Do you even know the difference between the 19th century and the 20th century, as well as the difference between the colonial countries of the 100th place and the 4th economy of the world?

                        But what about! It’s about the state of the 4th world economy that I’m talking about. A condition in which hunger, as in 1933, was an ordinary occurrence and which hung at the level of not even 19, but the bride of what age from the distant past.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Compare-like (for clarity).

                        Just that case
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        It is not surprising, because NOT a WORD about this most terrible catastrophe of Russia is your "truthful" rulers, no gug-gu.

                        Yeah, a catastrophe that "has never happened anywhere" and people do not know about it, because the rulers are not "gu-gu"? How do you imagine it?
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        WHO would choose them after that?

                        Those. if they said this, would they not be chosen? And after what they did, but did not say about it, were they chosen? Insanity grows stronger.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You liar, do not ask anyone, for there are no longer those who remember 1933.

                        You’re still lying. Although very few. And there were more of them for 20-30 years, and just then I asked them. I know the testimonies of even those who remembered the year 1921 and the civil war.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Trotsky-said about you that your ears fade

                        In your words: found authority! Shulgin also made politics at a considerable level, and Trotsky also became an emigrant. Why is one better / worse than the other? The main thing is not in Shulgin personally, but in his assessment of the situation. And she, as you know, turned out to be true.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Think for yourself: the affirmations of a complete BANKRUPT (see year 91) - what is the price?

                        Judging by the current situation, there is no need to talk about bankruptcy.
                      10. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 21 August 2019 16: 48
                        -3
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        See above.

                        We state: you have nothing to imagine.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Read the full text, not half the phrase.

                        Though WITHOUT.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        For those who hate the Russian language: here is the choice: yes or no, for or against, to be or not to be. Do you think thinker?

                        ONCE AGAIN for tankers who hate the Russian language:
                        choice - something to choose from. Ozhegov's dictionary
                        Not "yes" or "no" (this is not a referendum), but "either this or that." Got it, Spinoza, Jean Jacques Rousseau?
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        I put a mirror in front of you.

                        You have the opportunity only to put yourself, which is what they did lol
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Yeah, a catastrophe that "has never happened anywhere" and people do not know about it, because the rulers are not "gu-gu"? How do you imagine it?

                        Phew, your cynicism and hypocrisy have crossed all borders: do not forget that you are talking about the MILLION VICTIMS of our people. Hunger was seized 60 000 000 people, everyone knew everything, despite the strictest prohibitions on the truth. Nobody knows? Nate:
                        7 March 1933 city
                        TSA FSB of the Russian Federation. F. 2. Op. 11. D. 42. L. 62, 63, 64.

                        YEY DISTRICT. Village Dolzhanskaya - 22 / II food assistance commission, having examined, established that tr. G **** was eaten corpse of owl of deceased sister.
                        In the same village, it was established that group D *** remained after the death of his father and mother with young sisters and brothers ate the meat of brothers and sisters who died of starvation.

                        St. Novo-Scherbinovskaya. In the 3rd brigade of the collective farm, his wife E *** hacked and with "ate her 3-year-old child,
                        The cemetery found up to 30 corpses thrown out during the night, part of the corpses bitten by dogs. several coffins were found there, from which the corpses disappeared.

                        In the 3rd brigade, the wife of C *** drags from the cemetery corpses of children and eats. A search of the apartment and interrogation of S *** children revealed that several corpses were taken from the cemetery for food.
                        A girl’s corpse was found in the apartment with her legs cut off and boiled meat was found.

                        There are thousands of such documents. IN PEACE TIME ......
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        In your words: found authority! Shulgin also made politics at a considerable level, and Trotsky

                        compared with a finger: Trotsky is the highest person of the state in wartime, never was not a hostage and puppet like Shulgin
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Judging by the current situation, there is no need to talk about bankruptcy.

                        Total bankrupt since 91 years. Relevant and relevant to the opinion of a bankrupt.

                        We state: you did NOT answer everywhere and you could not object to ANYTHING. Nothing.
                      11. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 21 August 2019 15: 49
                        +2
                        Did not answer this:
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Finally recognized: the overwhelming minority FORCED their will on MOST.

                        It was not imposed by force, a liar, but SUGGESTED what the majority wanted (that is, peasants whom you, like the White Guards, hate and despise) And received support. Peasants. And the whites, among whom there were many Social Revolutionaries, the peasants - THE TRUTH! - sent them to ...
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        I ASK AGAIN: WHAT RIGHT had 20 years to be run by those whom NOBODY CHOOSE ?!

                        I answer again: those whom NOBODY CHOOSE did not have the right to lead the country not only for 20 years, but for two summers. Therefore, they were thrown out of the country by 1921-22. Everything is natural and natural.
                      12. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 21 August 2019 17: 11
                        -2
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Not imposed by force, liar, but OFFERED what most wanted

                        Sclerosis treatment:
                        Sakhar Medovich - the Bolsheviks won. It was they who decided, not a village

                        Back included, justifier for segregation? The Nazis even put the whole people above all, and you just put a miserable Pile above all.
                        Go to Ozhegov's dictionary and find out the meanings and the difference between the words "suggested" and "decided" for them.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        the peasants whom you, like the White Guards, hate and despise)

                        You hate and despise them, denying them the MIND and the RIGHT OF VOICE-see above. Not ashamed?
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And got support. Peasants.

                        The peasantry sent them to: see the election results, and not their chatter
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        I answer again: those whom NOBODY CHOOSE did not have the right to lead the country not only for 20 years, but for two summers.

                        Correctly. But led, as much as 70 years. And they were afraid of elections like fire, the mouse knew .... They didn’t know the people, they were afraid of him, they hated him, not even letting him think, not what to choose.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Therefore, they were thrown out Everything is natural and natural.

                        Therefore, they sneezed at them by 91, EVERYTHING, incl. You, you, 17 million hot hearts lol and all the rest. Because of you, the country has collapsed ....

                        PS so what is there with repression, links, executions and starvation in Germany 33-37 (and everywhere) ,?
                        All air out? lol
                      13. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 22 August 2019 06: 51
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Sclerosis treatment:
                        Sakhar Medovich - the Bolsheviks won. It was they who decided, not the village

                        Treatment of insanity: the Bolsheviks won the elections in the Supreme Council, and the Socialist-Revolutionaries lost in the capitals and provincial cities. It was they who decided, not the village. They are the capitals and provincial centers! Who is in the capital is for the country and power according to the then concepts. True, only in the first place. Secondly and most importantly, that those who are in the capitals, for their affairs, arrange the majority of the population. And so it happened.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Back included, justifier for segregation? The Nazis even put the whole people above all, and you just put a miserable Pile above all.

                        I don’t need to include me in the back - I do not practice empty lies, unlike you. There is enough knowledge. The Nazis put one people above the others, the Bolsheviks believed that all peoples and all people should be equal. And the will of the people for them was above all. And the people understood and supported this. Learn real events, not your nonsense, liar and slander.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        PS so what is there with repression, links, executions and starvation in Germany 33-37 (and everywhere) ,?

                        In Germany until 1933 there was a famine, after 1933 there were repressions. Besides Germany, it was also, for example, in Poland.
                        And what about the number of victims in India, Persia, China, etc.? To find out if it is true that "so much nowhere, never"? A liar?
                      14. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 22 August 2019 09: 27
                        -3
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Treatment of insanity: the Bolsheviks won the elections in the Supreme Council, and the Socialist-Revolutionaries lost in the capitals and provincial cities. It was they who decided, not the village. They are the capitals and provincial centers!

                        Once again: who is interested in your theories of social Nazism and social segregation? 10% of the population do not have the right to decide the fate of 90% of the peasants, the peasants themselves said their word. Which you trampled.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        ! Who is in the capital is for the country and power according to the then concepts.

                        Read the LAW on elections to the DC on the EQUAL rights of all, and leave the gangster "concepts" for your Bolshevik environment, living by them.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Secondly and most importantly, that those who are in the capitals, for their affairs, arrange the majority of the population. And so it happened.

                        It didn’t happen and didn’t work: otherwise there would have been no wild multimillion-dollar exile of citizens for decades, hundreds of thousands of executions per year, stupid total censorship and panic, to enuresis, fear of popular elections.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        I don’t need to include the back one - I do not practice empty lies, unlike you.

                        Included: SOLVE for the people and OFFER the people (both expressions are yours) - mutually exclusive concepts.
                        Pathological lies and ignorance (which your miserable attempts to justify starvation deaths have cost) are distinctive patrimonial signs of the Bolsheviks and you are no exception. And an honest and educated person, by definition, cannot be a Bolshevik.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        The Nazis put one people above the others, the Bolsheviks believed that all peoples and all people should be equal.

                        So I say, they lied and were hypocritical: a handful of "decided" put themselves ABOVE ALL, the rest of the people were deprived of the right of opinion and vote,
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And the will of the people for them was above all. And the people understood and supported this.

                        In WHICH ELECTIONS did they learn the opinion and receive the support of the people? List, FOR THE TIME I propose, a liar
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        In Germany until 1933 there was a famine, after 1933 there were repressions.

                        Who needs empty chatter? FIGURES-imagine how many millions died of starvation in the 1930s, as in the USSR, how many cannibals were, how many hundreds of thousands were shot in a year, etc.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And what about the number of victims in India, Persia, China, etc.? To find out if it is true that "so much nowhere, never"? A liar?

                        I am not a doctor to treat sclerosis: you have already been written:
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        China: 3% of the population died of starvation in 19th century 1870, India - 1,5% of the population, USSR - about 5% in 20th century
                        When will it come? request
  5. Aleksey Aleksandrovich
    Aleksey Aleksandrovich 14 August 2019 12: 25
    +4
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    In civil wars, it’s at least imprudent to talk about the legitimacy of one of the parties


    Can not argue. During the civil war, it is at least stupid to talk about any legitimacy of these or those "state formations" that suddenly appeared. The truly legitimate state of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was formed in December 1922. Everything that came before, all these Far Eastern republics and so on blew away, as if they did not exist.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 14 August 2019 15: 11
      -5
      Quote: Alexey Alexandrovich
      A truly legitimate state is the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

      What stupidity-tens of millions of people did not recognize his power
      1. Serg koma
        Serg koma 14 August 2019 20: 01
        +1
        Quote: Olgovich
        What stupidity-tens of millions of people did not recognize his power

        And if one single person DOES NOT RECOGNIZE? What is the difference between millions and ones when it comes to most?
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 15 August 2019 06: 39
          0
          Quote: Serg Koma
          And if one single person DOES NOT RECOGNIZE? What is the difference between millions and ones when it comes to most?

          Most-did not recognize the Soviets power - see the election results, not Fights
  6. smaug78
    smaug78 14 August 2019 14: 20
    +4
    Quote: Olgovich

    Because it is the official name only then of a legitimate state of Russia - RUSSIAN STATE,
    on what basis is legitimate? After the king’s abdication of legitimacy in general, we can’t talk. And the people chose the Bolsheviks, because they did not want to return the old order, and the peasants did not want to return the land.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 14 August 2019 15: 12
      -3
      Quote: smaug78
      And the people chose the Bolsheviks

      Never, in any election, nowhere did the Bolsheviks nation-elect and did NOT entrust ANYTHING. Remember this.
      1. smaug78
        smaug78 14 August 2019 15: 31
        +3
        Dear, the people preferred the side of the Bolsheviks, remember this. And I didn’t say anything about the elections and commissions, you don’t need to ascribe your fantasies to your opponent, remember this. And yes, what about legitimacy?
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 14 August 2019 15: 34
          -4
          Quote: smaug78
          Dear, the people chose the side of the Bolsheviks, remember this

          How did you define this? 10 million victims of the civil slaughter organized by the Bolsheviks?
          Quote: smaug78
          And I didn’t say anything about elections and commissions, don’t need to ascribe to the opponent his fantasies, remember this

          Where are you attributed? You have been reminded of the FACT
          Quote: smaug78
          And yes, what about legitimacy?

          What's not clear?
      2. Serg koma
        Serg koma 14 August 2019 20: 04
        +2
        Quote: Olgovich
        people-did not elect and NOTHING

        The people did not elect. The people took a rifle and directed against their enemy. Because the Reds defeated the Whites - draw conclusions for whom the people voted with a bayonet.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 15 August 2019 06: 41
          +1
          Quote: Serg Koma
          The people are not electing

          Elected in popular elections
          Quote: Serg Koma
          The people took a rifle and directed against their enemy.

          Yes but lost
          Quote: Serg Koma
          Because the red won the victory over white - draw conclusions for whom the people voted with a bayonet

          The bayonet is not a voice. The thug in the gateway is also stronger, but this does not become right
  7. smaug78
    smaug78 14 August 2019 16: 12
    +5
    [quote = Olgovich]
    How did you define this? 10 million victims of the civil massacre organized by the Bolsheviks? [Quote = Olgovich]
    10 million is permissible. How many million in the account of the white movement? What could the white movement offer the same peasants, besides considering the possibility of distributing state. land, while the land must first be returned to their rightful owners?
    [quote = Olgovich] Where are you attributed? You were reminded of the FACT [quote = Olgovich]
    [quote = Olgovich] the Bolsheviks did not elect people anywhere and did NOT entrust ANYTHING. [quote = Olgovich]
    What for? Shake the air?
    [quote = Olgovich] WHAT is not clear? [quote = Olgovich]
    After the king’s abdication of legitimacy in general, we can’t talk. So I think that you do not understand.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 15 August 2019 06: 46
      -1
      Quote: smaug78
      How many million in the account of the white movement?

      All responsibility is on those who STARTED the massacre 25.10/1917/XNUMX
      Quote: smaug78
      What could the white movement offer the same peasants, besides considering the possibility of distributing state. land, while the land must first be returned to their rightful owners?

      It invited the people to decide ALL issues in a popularly and freely elected parliament. Agreeing IN ADVANCE to any decision of the people.
      Quote: smaug78
      After the king’s abdication of legitimacy in general, we can’t talk

      Legitimate Lions appointed as the legitimate Emperor. What's not clear?
  8. The comment was deleted.
  9. smaug78
    smaug78 14 August 2019 16: 18
    +2
    [quote = Olgovich]
    How did you define this? 10 million victims of the civil massacre organized by the Bolsheviks? [Quote = Olgovich] [/ quote]
    10 million, for example. How many million in the account of the white movement? Or a white carnage, how is it different from a red one?
    [quote = Olgovich]
    Where are you attributed? You were reminded of the FACT [quote = Olgovich] [/ quote]
    And why did you decide to recall this? Then, recall the distribution of mandates in the Constituent Assembly, how many Cadets and Bolsheviks have? But supporters of the monarchy does not smell at all.
    [quote = Olgovich] WHAT is not clear? [quote = Olgovich] [/ quote]
    On what basis are you talking about legitimacy?
  10. Alexander Greene
    Alexander Greene 14 August 2019 17: 13
    +4
    On the legitimacy of Soviet power

    After the tsar’s abdication in Russia, there were two bodies that ruled the country: the Duma and Soviets, which formed the executive body - the Provisional Government.

    In September 1917, the tsarist Duma was dissolved and the Soviets remained the representative body in the country. Therefore, the arrest of the Provisional Government in October 1917 was not even a coup; it was in its purest form the removal by the Soviets of the Provisional Government that could not cope and was hated by all. The Second Congress of Soviets of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies legalized the suspension of the Provisional Government, to which it had full legitimate right.

    After that, elections to the Constituent Assembly took place, which was elected only once, only to determine what the future structure of the Russian state would be.

    In other words, the Constituent Assembly is an artificial temporary neoplasm, the necessity of which was discussed when there was confusion and vacillation in the country.

    But his appearance was belated, the country already had power in the hands of legitimate Soviets, which represented the majority of the working people, and who had already appointed a new executive power - the Council of People's Commissars, which also recognized the All-Russian Congress of Peasant Deputies.

    The Bolsheviks went to the Constituent Assembly elections for the sole purpose of making the people personally convinced of their worthlessness. And so it happened: The Constituent Assembly did not recognize the main Decrees of the Soviet government on Peace and Earth. After that, no one needed the Constituent Assembly,

    And the fact that this happened is to blame for the Provisional Government, which dragged on for a long time with the elections to the Constituent Assembly. It was belatedly born, and then no one needed it, even Kolchak, who arrested "his Komuch" and then shot him.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 15 August 2019 06: 51
      -2
      Quote: Alexander Green
      On the legitimacy of Soviet power

      After the tsar’s abdication in Russia, there were two bodies that ruled the country: the Duma and Soviets, which formed the executive body - the Provisional Government.

      In September 1917, the tsarist Duma was dissolved and the Soviets remained the representative body in the country. Therefore, the arrest of the Provisional Government in October 1917 was not even a coup; it was in its purest form the removal by the Soviets of the Provisional Government that could not cope and was hated by all. The Second Congress of Soviets of Workers 'and Soldiers' Deputies legalized the suspension of the Provisional Government, to which it had full legitimate right.

      After that, elections to the Constituent Assembly took place, which was elected only once, only to determine what the future structure of the Russian state would be.

      In other words, the Constituent Assembly is an artificial temporary neoplasm, the necessity of which was discussed when there was confusion and vacillation in the country.

      But his appearance was belated, the country already had power in the hands of legitimate Soviets, which represented the majority of the working people, and who had already appointed a new executive power - the Council of People's Commissars, which also recognized the All-Russian Congress of Peasant Deputies.

      The Bolsheviks went to the Constituent Assembly elections for the sole purpose of making the people personally convinced of their worthlessness. And so it happened: The Constituent Assembly did not recognize the main Decrees of the Soviet government on Peace and Earth. After that, no one needed the Constituent Assembly,

      And the fact that this happened is to blame for the Provisional Government, which dragged on for a long time with the elections to the Constituent Assembly. It was belatedly born, and then no one needed it, even Kolchak, who arrested "his Komuch" and then shot him.

      You are again nonsense: the Bolsheviks FULLY recognized the UC as the HIGHEST AUTHORITY OF RUSSIA: all decrees were adopted BEFORE the UC decided on them, the Bolsheviks participated in the elections, took part in the work: they don’t do this with an illegitimate body
      Quote: Alexander Green
      Bolsheviks went to the polls The Constituent Assembly for the sole purpose - that the people firsthand see their worthlessness.

      Ich did not even think of saying this stuff: you’re the first lol
      1. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 15 August 2019 16: 50
        +2
        Quote: Olgovich
        Ich did not even think of saying this stuff: you’re the first


        Stop talking, better read V.I. Lenin

        After the victory of the October Revolution, the Bolshevik Party sought to help the petty-bourgeois masses by their own experience, by comparing the US with the Soviets, to get rid of bourgeois constitutional illusions. According to Lenin, the Bolsheviks, in order to "... destroy the bourgeois parliament in Russia, first had to convene the Constituent Assembly even after our victory" (PSS, T. 41, p. 257).

        Voting due to sabotage of counterrevolutionaries and the actual outbreak of the Civil War about half of the voters participated(here's the "legitimacy" for you!) Of these, 23,9% voted for the Bolsheviks, 40% for the Socialist-Revolutionaries, 2,3% for the Mensheviks, 4,7% for the Cadets, the rest - for other petty-bourgeois and bourgeois parties and groups ...

        The election results did not reflect the real balance of political forces in the country, as the working class and the Bolshevik party influenced the non-proletarian masses "... incomparably more in the extra-parliamentary struggle than in the parliamentary struggle" (PSS, Vol. 34, p. 219).
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 16 August 2019 10: 15
          -4
          Quote: Alexander Green
          Stop talking, better read V.I. Lenin

          So apply it to yourself and show WHERE Ulyanov (and not you) said this:
          The Bolsheviks went to the Constituent Assembly elections for the sole purpose of making the people personally convinced of their worthlessness.
          Quote: Alexander Green
          About half of the voters took part in the voting due to the sabotage of the counter-revolutionaries and the actual outbreak of the Civil War, (here you have "legitimacy"!) Of these, 23,9% voted for the Bolsheviks, 40% for the Socialist-Revolutionaries, 2,3% for the Mensheviks, 4,7, XNUMX% for the Cadets, the rest - for other petty-bourgeois and bourgeois parties and groups

          Unconditional legitimacy: TENS OF MILLIONS took part in the elections: UNIVERSAL, SECRET, FREE, DIRECT, COMPETITIVE. Which you never had in sight.
          Quote: Alexander Green
          The election results did not reflect the real balance of political forces in the country,

          Yeah, the Bolsheviks only howled about this only when they realized that they were in the election. Prior to this, they fought fiercely for votes, and in the wildest ways: banning the party, arrests, dispersal, violence, fraud, cheating. And anyway, lost
          1. Alexander Greene
            Alexander Greene 16 August 2019 12: 35
            +1
            Quote: Olgovich
            So apply it to yourself and show WHERE Ulyanov (and not you) said this:

            Several quotes from the work of V.I. Lenin's "childhood disease of levtzna in communism" (PSS, Vol. 41), specially for the lazy :.

            (S. 13) "We did not proclaim a boycott of the bourgeois parliament,
            founders, and they said - From the April (1917) conference of our party, 10 they spoke officially on behalf of the party that a bourgeois republic with a founding party is better than a similar republic without a founding party, and A "workers' and peasants", Soviet, republic is better than any bourgeois-democratic, parliamentary republic"


            (S. 43-44) ".... in Russia in September-November 1917 a worker city ​​class, soldiers and peasants were, due to a number of special conditions, extremely rare prepared by to the adoption of the Soviet system and to disperse the most democratic bourgeois parliament, this is an absolutely indisputable and completely established historical fact. " .

            Nevertheless, the Bolsheviks did not boycott the Constituent Assembly, but participated in the elections and until and after the conquest of the proletariat of political power. That these elections yielded extremely valuable (and highly useful for the proletariat) political results, I dare to hope that I proved in the article mentioned above, which examined in detail the data on the elections to the Constituent Assembly in Russia *.

            The conclusion from here is completely certain: it is proved that even a few weeks before
            victory of the Soviet Republic, even after such a victory, participation in the bourgeois
            the democratic parliament not only does not harm the revolutionary proletariat, but also makes it easier for it to prove to the backward masses why such parliaments deserve to be dispersed,
            facilitates the success of their dispersal, facilitates the "political obsolescence" of bourgeois parliamentarism.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 16 August 2019 13: 05
              -4
              Quote: Alexander Green
              A few quotes from work IN AND. Lenin's "childhood disease levtzna in communism" (PSS, T.41),

              Are you .... quite already? This nonsense is written through ...2.5 YEARS after overclocking!
              The offender always justifies his criminal actions is a common practice. But who cares about killer motives? Everyone is interested in perfect murder

              1. Show where he writes US worthlessness during elections and that the Bolsheviks go to them to show it, how you lied above.

              2. Where is worthlessness, even in this nonsense?

              PS I do not comment on the "work" itself: it is a senseless, stupid, false nonsense.
              1. Alexander Greene
                Alexander Greene 16 August 2019 20: 11
                +2
                Quote: Olgovich
                1. Show where he writes US worthlessness during elections and that the Bolsheviks go to them to show it, how you lied above.
                2. Where is worthlessness, even in this nonsense?
                PS I do not comment on the "work" itself: it is a senseless, stupid, false nonsense.

                Do not be stupid, the fact that you are a demagogue is known to all. IN AND. Lenin at that time had nothing more to do as soon as he wrote a special statement for future olgievichs about his attitude to the Constituent Assembly (CSS).

                Read T.35, PSS, V.I. Lenin, there materials on the Constituent Assembly (CSS) of that time are quite enough to clarify the truth. Lenin wrote that the work of the CSS will depend on what position it takes: recognizes the Soviet power - it will dissolve itself, does not recognize - the Soviet power will dissolve it.

                IN AND. Lenin assumed that the CSS did not recognize the Decrees of the Second Congress of Soviets, but there was no preliminary decision on the dissolution of the CSS. Lenin wrote that the people themselves will deal with the CSS. And so it happened, as soon as the CSS showed its anti-popular, counter-revolutionary character, everyone understood that the CSS is a-w-a-a-a-a-l-s-i ..

                Then Lenin was justified or not - not out of the blue, the main thing is that he explained the tactics of the Bolsheviks in relation to the Constituent Assembly. Until the people were convinced that this CSS was a counter-revolution, the Bolsheviks did not oppose it, as soon as the CSS showed their mugs, rejecting the Declaration of Human Rights and the first Decrees of the Soviet government, they dismissed it.

                And today, you alone are weeping about the Constituent Assembly.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 17 August 2019 08: 35
                  -5
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  Do not be stupid, the fact that you are a demagogue is known to all. IN AND. To Lenin there was nothing more to do at that timeas soon as you write a special statement for future olgievichs about their attitude to the Constituent Assembly (CSS)

                  Omitting your rudeness, we state the fact recognized by YOU: going to the elections, the Bolsheviks about the purpose of their participation (supposedly, showing people the worthlessness of the Constitution), not stated.
                  Those. you are a liar
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  Read T.35, PSS, V.I. Lenin, there materials on the Constituent Assembly (CSS) of that time are quite enough to clarify the truth. Lenin wrote that the work of the CSS will depend on what position it takes: recognizes the Soviet power - it will dissolve itself, does not recognize - the Soviet power will dissolve it.

                  Spit on how he justifies his crime to the people of Russia. ONCE AGAIN: the killer’s motives do not interest anyone; they judge him for the murder.
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  IN AND. Lenin assumed that the CSS did not recognize the Decrees of the Second Congress of Soviets, but there was no preliminary decision on the dissolution of the CSS.

                  Naturally: he thought that. that the elections will win and the Bolsheviks through the US will become the LEGAL power. But the people, represented by the US, sent them.
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  Lenin wrote that the people themselves will deal with the CSS. So it happened

                  Latvian gangsters are not people
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  anti-people character

                  Who defined this? belay lol Is the brain affected by a bad disease? lol
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  US - stole..

                  Bravo, as all Bolsheviks are drawn to this! good
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  Then Lenin was justified or not - not nevadnavadno, the main thing that he explained tactics Bolsheviks in relation to the Constituent Assembly

                  It is very important for understanding the essence of what happened: during the electionsupported CSSafter losing-dispersed. Bandit tactics.
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  rejecting the Declaration of Human Rights and the first Decrees of Soviet power - he was dismissed

                  The Bolsheviks, a marginal criminal minority, which had the RIGHT to put forward ultimatums ... to the popular MOST OF US? fool
                  Quote: Alexander Green
                  And today only you sob over the Constituent Assembly

                  No, the borders of Russia of the 17th century and the Russian Cross touched EVERYONE, and they are the result of that crime,
                  1. Alexander Greene
                    Alexander Greene 17 August 2019 14: 17
                    +1
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Omitting your rudeness,

                    Rude, sickly, you, and not only me, but the entire Soviet people, insult the memory of V.I. Lenin, the memory of the Bolsheviks, under whose leadership socialism was built in Russia, a society of equal opportunities, where everyone was everything.

                    You all rejoice at the 1991 coup. But what are you enjoying? That vile people destroyed socialism and destroyed the USSR, that they robbed the people to a sticky? Previously, we all worked, we lived the same way, and now some have billions, while others have, at best, a beggarly pension, or even a beggarly sum.

                    So enough to distort the History of the USSR., I lived it myself with my grandfathers and parents.
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 17 August 2019 14: 29
                      -4
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      Rude, sickly, you, and not only me, but the entire Soviet people, insult memory IN AND. Lenin the memory of the Bolsheviks, under whose leadership socialism was built in Russia, a society of equal opportunities, where everyone was everything.

                      1. It is impossible to offend them more than themselves.

                      2. Under the EXCLUSIVELY their leadership built: the borders of Russia of the 17th century (see the window, finally!), The Russian Cross and the disaster of 1991.
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      You all rejoice at the 1991 coup. But what are you enjoying? That vile people destroyed socialism and destroyed the USSR, that they robbed the people to a sticky?

                      Putin said correctly: the collapse of the USSR is the greatest disaster. I agree with him completely
                      Quote: Alexander Green
                      vile people destroyed

                      YOUR people, do not forget YOUR top desks. leaders fell, robbed surrendered!
                      1. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 17 August 2019 14: 36
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        YOUR people, do not forget YOUR top desks. leaders fell, robbed surrendered!

                        No, these are your people, from your tribe, whose biography you don’t take - all from the offended Soviet power, or from dispossessed or repressed. They were joined by degenerates who came into contact with haters of socialism like you and absorbed your ideology.
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 17 August 2019 14: 49
                        -3
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        No, these are your people, from your tribe, whose biography you don’t take - all from the offended Soviet power, or from dispossessed or repressed. They were joined by degenerates who came into contact with haters of socialism like you and absorbed your ideology.

                        Offended by your .... All offended: any, who wanted to - cheated, urged, led, threw, forced, robbed .... request

                        And you are all in white, light, defenseless cherubs with wings and a halo, offended in the best feelings and thoughts - by ungrateful people ..... yes
                      3. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 17 August 2019 16: 49
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Offended by your .... All offended:

                        And what are the "offended" angels? They exploited, harmed, stolen, betrayed and killed their people, for which they received what they deserved from the people's power.
                      4. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 18 August 2019 08: 15
                        -4
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        And what are the "offended" angels?

                        Do you understand Russian? I repeat: YOUR offended. Not yours, but yours.
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        exploited, harmed, stole, betrayed and killed their people

                        Oh, clearly you described YOUR time: such massacres in peacetime, such robbery, such wild exploitation, slavery and betrayal, have not yet happened in the history of Russia.
                      5. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 18 August 2019 13: 36
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        I repeat: YOUR offended. Not yours, but yours

                        Aren't you offended? If not, then why are you pouting on the Soviets?
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        such wild exploitation, slavery and betrayal, in the history of Russia did not exist.

                        Do not whistle, the people built socialism, everyone worked with enthusiasm, gave all their strength to strengthen the country's defense capabilities, thanks to which the country survived in World War II. And your accomplices did their best to do this, for which they messed up.
                      6. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 19 August 2019 09: 55
                        -3
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Aren't you offended?

                        You are offended: everyone "betrayed" you, did not understand, did not support, forgot, threw out, laughed at.
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        then why are you pouting on the Soviets?

                        I don't care about complete bankrupt. Compassion, perhaps.
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        Do not whistle, the people built socialism, everyone worked with enthusiasm, gave all their strength to strengthen the country's defense capabilities, thanks to which the country survived in World War II.

                        The people tried to survive in inhuman conditions, receiving miserable pennies for almost free hard labor.
                        Like BEFORE, during 1000 years won the war.
                        Quote: Alexander Green
                        And your accomplices did their best to do this, for which they messed up.

                        belay You paid: your-NO.
                        All Others IS yes
                      7. Alexander Greene
                        Alexander Greene 19 August 2019 12: 56
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        I don't care about complete bankrupt. Compassion, perhaps.

                        Only you suffer wrongly, not like a Russian person, Russians sympathize, and you water with mud. Just like Korotich, Svanidze and the like.
  11. smaug78
    smaug78 15 August 2019 08: 22
    +4
    [quote = Olgovich]
    All responsibility is on those who STARTED the massacre on 25.10/1917/XNUMX [quote = Olgovich] \ [quote]
    I did not ask you about this.
    [quote = Olgovich] It invited the people to decide ALL issues in the popularly and freely elected parliament. [quote = Olgovich]
    The Constituent Assembly is not Parliament. And to talk about agreeing with "IN ADVANCE with any decision" in the presence of strong monarchical sentiments is a bit naive.
    [quote = Olgovich] Legitimate Lions appointed as the legitimate Emperor. What is not clear? [Quote = Olgovich] [quote]
    The interim committee is never legitimate. So the legal appointment to an illegal authority, which, moreover, is not an expression of the will of the majority, is negligible.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 15 August 2019 13: 52
      -5
      Quote: smaug78
      I did not ask you about this.

      asked:
      How many million in the account of the white movement?
      and it is answered to you: all accounts to instigators
      Quote: smaug78
      The Constituent Assembly is not Parliament. And to talk about agreeing with "IN ADVANCE with any decision" in the presence of strong monarchical sentiments is a bit naive.

      parliament. how many monarchists were in the CSS? AND? What happened ?
      Quote: smaug78
      The interim committee is never legitimate. .

      belay
      The emperor instructed Lviv FORMATION OF THE GOVERNMENT. Which was done absolutely legitimately.
      Quote: smaug78
      So the legal appointment to an illegal authority, which, moreover, is not an expression of the will of the majority, is negligible

      VP was the spokesman for the majority: EVERYTHING supported him: first of all1 Congress of Soviets, the composition is agreed with the Soviets.
      But it was-only BEFORE US, its task is to conduct elections. ALL.
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. smaug78
    smaug78 15 August 2019 14: 06
    +4
    [quote = Olgovich]
    they asked: you answered: all accounts to the instigators [quote = Olgovich]
    Clear: not understanding the meanings of the words of the Russian language, ignorance of history and an attempt to whitewash the killers [/ quote]
    [/ quote] how many monarchists were in the CSS? AND? WHAT was? [/ Quote]
    Rejection of CSS decisions with all the consequences ...
    belay
    [/ quote] The emperor instructed Lvov FORMATION OF THE GOVERNMENT. What was done absolutely legitimately [/ quote]
    After the king’s abdication, there is no question of any legitimacy in principle.
    [/ quote] VP was the spokesman for the majority: EVERYTHING supported him: first of all1 Congress of Soviets, the composition is agreed with the Soviets.
    But it was-only BEFORE US, its task is to conduct elections. EVERYTHING. [/ Quote]
    Your fantasies, tips do not agree with you laughing
  14. The comment was deleted.