The submarine "Suffren" challenges the naval aviation of the Russian Navy. The treacherous hunter with air defense capabilities

241
As it is known, the solemn ceremony of launching the 12 X-type generation Suffren of the Barracuda SNA 2019 4, held on July 12, XNUMX, was presented by the central French media and highly specialized Western European military analytical publications as the most significant event in stories military-industrial complex and the Navy of France.





Without going into the already known technical characteristics, design features, as well as the range of tasks assigned to Barracuda, it was possible to conclude that the Suffren nuclear powered icebreaker that descended from the stocks of the Naval Group (DCNS) is an “ordinary” conceptual analogue of the Russian MAPL Pr 885 / M "Ash / -M" and the American "Virginia", and the surge of media pathos was triggered by exceptionally beautiful statements sounded by the head of state Emmanuel Macron and the Chief of Staff of the French Navy Admiral Christophe Puzuka, post-collision in the event.

MAPL "Suffren" - a reference sample of Western submarine construction


We decided to abandon the erroneous practice of superficially assessing the combat capabilities of one or another sample of promising military equipment and plunged into a rigorous study of the technical parameters, the hull layout, the architecture of the power plant, and the ammunition submarines of this series.

As a result, a thorough analysis of foreign and domestic reference publications publishing information about the “Barracuda” project from the second half of 2000's led us to a very unexpected result, which could perplex not only the regulars of military analytical blogs, but also real experts in the military naval equipment and anti-submarine weapons. As time has shown, a significant "slip" of the project "Barracuda" (from the moment of laying the main submarine "Suffren" until its launch into the water took about 11,5 years) only played into the hands of DCNS specialists, who managed to carefully consider all the technical problems encountered in during the operation of the American and British MAPL "Virginia" and "Estujt", and then eliminate the probable causes of their occurrence during the construction of the Suffren nuclear nuclear-powered ship.

One of such problems can be considered the “childhood disease” of the American multi-purpose atomic submarine cruisers of the Virginia class in the Block I / II versions, which consists in the detachment of the sound-absorbing coating segments from the hull (due to a decrease in the adhesive strength under the influence of sea water), which ultimately led to a significant increase in the acoustic signature of the submarines, and hence the range of their direction finding through radio acoustic buoys and the enemy SAC. In combat conditions (in the oceanic theater of operations), this technological “breach” can lead to the “collapse” of the layered anti-submarine and anti-ship zones “A2 / AD” formed around the US Navy AUG. It is obvious that during the installation of the elements of the sound-absorbing (“anechoic”) coating on the head MAPL “Suffren” a more advanced version of waterproof glue was used, which could be used on the Le Triomphant strategic submarine cruisers. As is known, the latter did not encounter the above-described "childhood illness."

However, the implementation of the highest level of acoustic secrecy of the submarine “Suffren” and its “sisterships” under construction (at the level or higher than that of MAPL pr. 885, “Virginia” and “Estuit”) is caused not only by the use of high-performance “anechoic” coating segments on high-quality glue-based, but also weight and size indicators, as well as the configuration of controls and propulsion design. Thus, the submarines of the class “Barracuda” can boast with an underwater displacement of just 5300 t (in comparison with the 13800 t in Yasenei) and hull width in 8,8 m.

These indicators in combination with the water-jet propulsion unit (absent on the “early” MAPL of 885 av.), Which reduce the disturbance of the water column from the cavitation effect, compact cutting, “smoothly integrated” into the architecture of the hull, X-shaped tail unit, and a single energy center (steam generators Combined into a single module with a K-15 water-cooled reactor placed on a multi-tiered depreciation platform), it will be possible to achieve a reduction in the level of acoustic noise "Barracuda" to 45 — 50 dB in the “sneak” mode, which will only be achitelno indicators exceed modern SSKs / DSEPL (including anaerobic "Soryu" type 212A etc.). Moreover, the X-shaped configuration of accommodation of feed stabilizers and rudders that do not rise above the hull's upper generator will reduce the effective dispersion surface of Barracuda-class submarines in surface mode, which will noticeably decrease the range of their detection by onboard anti-aircraft search and target radar lines the adversary.

"Underwater predator" with anti-aircraft potential


Meanwhile, this is not the whole list of "trumps" of nuclear submarine cruisers of this family. In addition to the software and hardware adaptation of combat information and control systems of submarines announced by the Naval Group and the Arms Procurement Agency of the Defense Ministry of France for the use of advanced heavy torpedoes F21 Artemis and long-range tactical missiles SCALP Naval / MdCN, Barracud equipment The A3SM undersea-based self-defense self-defense SAM system, developed by the joint division of concerns MBDA and DCNS, will be replenished. The key element of the A3SM complex (Arme Anti-Aérienne pour Sous Marins) is the “anti-aircraft” modification of the medium-range air combat missile MICA-IR (with a dual-band infrared homing head: 3-5 micron and 8-12 micron, respectively), placed in a protective starter launched from 533-mm submarine torpedo tubes.


The configuration of the placement of anti-aircraft guided missile VL MICA-IR in the launch capsule, adapted to the use of 533-mm TA


Already in the foreseeable future, the underwater version of launching VL MICA-IR missiles in the A3SM version can be considered an extremely “wake-up call” not only for crews of anti-submarine helicopters and IL-38N aircraft, carrying out sonar reconnaissance and monitoring of the surface situation in the most dangerous areas of the theater of military operations, but also for tactical flight personnel aviationinvolved in gaining dominance in the air or air patrolling on the far approaches to the zones A2 / AD of the Russian Air Force. And there is no exaggeration here, because the underwater launch of these missiles can be carried out completely unexpectedly for the crews of potential targets, while it is impossible to record the operation of an infrared seeker using standard radiation warning devices or RTR stations, and optoelectronic attack detection stations missiles (due to infrared radiation from engine flares) are far from being installed on all types of aircraft of naval aviation or Russian aerospace forces.

And even in the case of timely detection of the fact that the MICA-IR rocket emerges from the depths of the sea, it will be extremely difficult to avoid interception. Why? Firstly, because the modern two-spectral matrix photodetector of the MICA-IR rocket has excellent noise immunity with the ability to select a real target against the background of a “swarm” of heat traps and even optical-electronic countermeasures. Secondly, in connection with the possibility of receiving re-targeting / correction (in the event of a “capture” failure) from remote DRLO planes and airborne radars of Western fighters via the Link-16 radio channel (participation of the submarine carrier in this case is not required). Thirdly, due to the highest maneuverability of the MICA family of rockets, which is achieved through the use of the gas jetting system of the OBE during the period of burning out the solid propellant charge of the engine (at this stage the available MICA-IR / EM overloads can reach 55 units).

Salvation from such an insidious tactic of using the A3SM underwater-based defensive complex can only be flights at altitudes greater than 10 km, outside the high-altitude ceiling of the MICA family of missiles in the “anti-aircraft” version. Unfortunately, in the conditions of high-intensity combat operations on the sea / ocean theater, it is unlikely to envisage the above points, as well as effectively suppress the underwater communication channels through which target designation can be transmitted to the operators of the A3SM complex.
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  1. -4
    17 July 2019 05: 08
    That is, just to make a good submarine in any way ??? it is necessary to challenge someone, ..... better than Russian !!!! because the rest of the challenge is pfe-ee !!!
    Do you understand if they’ve got a bzik or worse?
    1. -6
      17 July 2019 08: 19
      Quote: rocket757
      it is necessary to challenge someone, ..... better than Russian !!!!

      The French have a very short memory. Okay, Napoleon was forgotten and how they fled from Russia to Paris ... During the Second World War, they were also on the side of the Nazis and again received from a Russian soldier. Now they are again cocking. These European sclerotic politicians simply need to be reminded of who they are every 100 years. Apparently the bistro in Paris is already missing, and the time has come for dumplings to appear in Paris.
      1. -5
        17 July 2019 08: 25
        Quote: NEXUS
        Apparently the bistro in Paris is already missing, and the time has come for dumplings to appear in Paris.

        Our croissants with coffee were already tasted, but yes, BI-STRO was like that!
        But the song is good for ALL of them !!!
        Along the Berlin Pavement
        Horses went to a watering place.
        They walked, shaking their manes,
        Coney Donchaks.
        Sings horse -
        Oh guys, not the first time
        We drink Cossack horses
        From a strange river.

        Cossacks, Cossacks,
        They go, they go around Berlin
        Our Cossacks.

        Indeed, not the first time ... it sho die Straßesho
        the street, one figs, we’ll walk, or we’ll drive in, not the first time!
        1. -8
          17 July 2019 09: 09
          Quote: rocket757
          Really, not the first time ... it's sho die Straße, sho
          la rue, one fig, we’ll walk, or even drive in, not the first time!
          have you stepped
          I remember singing such a song
          And in enemy land, we will crush the enemy
          Little blood, a mighty blow!
          and then the 41st didn’t work and wrote correctly
          Quote: Thrifty
          All of us are hi-hah-hanks, and then, as it were, we did not have to sob with bloody tears. ..
          1. +8
            17 July 2019 09: 16
            Here one has already written, doubted .... "expert in history"?
            Quote: Pedrodepackes
            have you stepped
            I remember singing such a song

            where WE personally walked, the question is different, STEPS and all.
            The question was for OUR ancestors ... if they are not yours, then what is the question?
            1. -10
              17 July 2019 09: 28
              Quote: rocket757
              where we personally walked, another question

              Well, yes, it’s handy to walk on the couch
              Quote: rocket757
              The question was for OUR ancestors ... if they are not yours

              yes, mine did not walk, because they died in the first week after being drafted by the military registration and enlistment office because of such "brave walkers"
              1. +8
                17 July 2019 10: 18
                MY did not sit in the military registration and enlistment offices .... they walked, crawled, and went from there, and then there ... because they were personnel.
                Someone didn’t get to the end, so the others followed them to the very edge.
                1. -4
                  17 July 2019 10: 23
                  Quote: rocket757
                  MY did not sit in military commissariats ...

                  mine, too, did not die in the military enlistment offices, do not smack nonsense
                  1. +3
                    17 July 2019 10: 36
                    Strange, but did your ancestor say something wrong? There was a war, recruits perished, personnel too. They all contributed to the future victory of our country.
                    Bright memory to them ...
                    Blame some military enlistment offices .... your ancestors did not shy away, did not flee their DEBT! or why aren’t you agreeing?
                    1. -6
                      17 July 2019 15: 03
                      Quote: rocket757
                      or why aren’t you agreeing?

                      I do not agree that it was impossible to throw people into battle without preparation, especially men over 40 years old, they are no longer suitable for war on the front line, the training of a single soldier, at least a month, I do not say as part of a platoon squad - mouths. And those who were going to "... with little blood, a mighty blow ..." are to blame for the fact that such a situation has developed.
                2. +7
                  17 July 2019 15: 35
                  ".... we have the dead, the voiceless, there is only one joy - we have fallen for the homeland, but she is saved ...."
              2. +2
                17 July 2019 20: 06
                Quote: Pedrodepackes
                mine did not walk, because they died in the first week after being drafted by the military registration and enlistment office because of such "brave walkers"

                Dear, and you do not confuse anyone with the Nazis !?
                1. +2
                  17 July 2019 21: 08
                  Maybe, nevertheless, about the submarine ....
      2. nks
        -3
        17 July 2019 09: 06
        Do not learn history from Murzil and don’t bring nonsense
        1. -16
          17 July 2019 09: 10
          Quote: nks
          Do not learn history from Murzil and don’t bring nonsense

          Yes, the "connoisseur" of history has hatched ... from which egg only?
          OUR Cossacks were neither in Paris, nor in Berlin, and in half of the capitals of the Europeans were .... HA, HA!
          1. nks
            +6
            17 July 2019 09: 14
            In vain you are demonstrating your lack of mind here. Moreover, I did not write to you
            1. -2
              17 July 2019 09: 22
              It is advisable to clarify ... errors may be ... by the way, stories about BI-STRO, this is also a story ... not military, of course, but about the topic
              The author of the article does not have to be taken literally .... it can be the same stories or fantasy. He simply sets the TOPIC, embellishing it for interesu! so often happens ... it's just a reason to sort it out and express your opinion, if interested ....
              It is not necessary to stoop to rudeness, it will never be better from this!
              And therefore, keep yours ... in short, within the bounds of decency.
              1. nks
                -2
                17 July 2019 09: 27
                About the Bistro - it's true. There were, of course, Cossacks in Paris, as well as the French in Moscow, but they didn’t "fled from Russia until Paris itself" - that was already in 1814, there was another campaign (not the Patriotic War of 1812). In WWII, they were not on the side of the Nazis. Don't play ridiculous sofa wars here.
                1. +10
                  17 July 2019 09: 52
                  Quote: nks
                  In WWII, they were not on the side of the Nazis. No need to play ridiculous sofa wars here.

                  Learn history, wise guy. The French WAS on the side of the Nazis. Vichy regime and the 33 I-Waffen-Grenadier SS division "Charlemagne", who fought on the Eastern Front were.
                  The first French Nazi unit was formed in 1941 and was named the French Volunteer Anti-Bolshevik Legion. The Legion was formed of volunteers of extreme right-wing and racist ideology, who believed that they were entrusted with the honorable mission of freeing the world from Bolshevism. The legion fought near Moscow, distinguished itself in punitive operations against Belarusian partisans in 1942. Later, the Legion was merged with another volunteer formation - the "Three-color Legion".
                  This unit became famous for preventing the defeat of Army Group Center on June 25, 1944, stopping a tank breakthrough of Soviet troops on the Bobr River. Some historians believe that this operation was the most successful operation of the French collaborators during the war. In 48 hours of fighting, they managed to destroy at least 40 Soviet tanks.
                  In September 1944, the SS Charlemagne division was created on the basis of the "tricolor legion", which was to, in the literal sense of the word, lead the Third Reich on its last journey.

                  Himmler personally assured the division's leadership that it would not be sent to the Western Front to fight compatriots from the Free French units advancing in France.

                  The French thugs in February 1945 sent to Poland to resist the advance of the Red Army. However, during her unloading in Pomerania, she was attacked by units of the 1 of the Belarusian Front. In battles in the Coerlin area, the division lost more than half of its personnel and was withdrawn for regrouping to the West.
                  The divisional commander, Krukenberg, told his soldiers that they were released from the oath and could go home. Nevertheless, about 700 people volunteered to participate in the defense of Berlin. The Charlemagne assault battalion, created from the remnants of the division, was the last regular German formation to enter Berlin on the eve of the assault.

                  During the last, senseless and merciless battle around the bunker of the Reich Chancellery and the Reichstag, the French once again proved the now unnecessary efficiency. During the day of the fighting on April 28, 108 Soviet tanks were destroyed in Berlin, of which 62 were destroyed by three hundred Charlemagne fighters. Four soldiers of the battalion were awarded the Knight's Iron Cross on April 29 at one of the last awards ceremonies in the Reich, which has already ceased to exist.

                  Remnants of the battalion tried to infiltrate from Berlin in small groups. About 30 people were captured by the Red Army and handed over to the French authorities. A group of 11 people was arrested by the French army already in France. The hero of the liberation of France, General Leclerc, asked the prisoners why they were wearing Nazi uniforms. One of them asked in response: "Why are you dressed in American, General?" This group was immediately shot on the spot without trial or investigation. Most of the surviving soldiers of the division were shot by military tribunals or sentenced by the French authorities to 20 years of hard labor.

                  Be educated and do not carry nonsense.
                  1. -9
                    17 July 2019 12: 29
                    Are you seriously? Xnumx soldiers destroyed xnumx tanks? The tanks still remained with the Red Army on the move after that?
                    1. +2
                      17 July 2019 12: 55
                      Quote: demiurg
                      Are you seriously? Xnumx soldiers destroyed xnumx tanks? The tanks still remained with the Red Army on the move after that?

                      In urban areas, when there was really no tactic for fighting against fighters with Faustpatrons, there could be 300 tanks. But I see that everything is completely wrong with the story.
                  2. -4
                    17 July 2019 13: 19
                    And who collected such information in the defeated Berlin? When it is still not possible to say how many Germans died during his defense, and not only Germans.
                  3. nks
                    +1
                    17 July 2019 22: 46
                    Instead of this huge, stupid copy-paste, you would sometimes turn on your head. Strictly speaking, the Nazis are Italians, but that is not the point. The Vichy regime, with all its shameful collaboration, was not an ally of Nazi Germany in joint military operations with it. The Legion was formed in the occupied territory, not controlled by the Vichy regime. By the way, the very Charlemagne, which was formed on the basis of the legion in 1944, never reached the full-time division in number (a maximum of about half was recruited). You will not consider the Second World War a civil war just because collaborators from Soviet citizens were recruited into several divisions? This is not counting the descendants of white emigrants and pr Cossacks, who made up both separate parts and served in those very legions and charlemans. Nobody denies the shame of this fact, but it doesn’t mean at all that history can be turned around for the sake of pseudo-patriotic populism.
                  4. xax
                    +3
                    18 July 2019 01: 37
                    Quote: NEXUS
                    Be educated and do not carry nonsense.

                    I would even say:
                    Quote: nks
                    In vain you are demonstrating your lack of mind here.
                  5. +1
                    18 July 2019 22: 32
                    Information about the destroyed Soviet tanks on April 28, 1945 by the soldiers of the Charlemagne assault battalion was taken from the Yaplakal entertainment portal published by a certain character of Yaril. It is not documented anywhere.
                2. +3
                  17 July 2019 10: 12
                  Quote: nks
                  In WWII, they were not on the side of the Nazis. No need to play ridiculous sofa wars here.

                  the French crossed arms in North Africa with the Anglo-American forces, participated in battles on the Eastern Front in the ranks of the Armed Forces of the Third Reich. In London and Washington, they even intended to rank France as territories to be occupied after World War II, which were in the same camp with Germany. Only the firm position of I. Stalin saved France from the occupation regime and, at his insistence, it was included in the anti-Hitler camp.

                  These are not stories, this is HISTORY. Every nation, state has pages "white" and "black" .... if you blot out some, and leave only pleasant ones ... this is already a forgery and nothing good, in the end, will not end!
                  1. nks
                    +1
                    17 July 2019 22: 57
                    Specifically, the Vichy Armed Forces in Africa entered into battle with the forces of the WB and the United States solely as part of the defense of their own territory. And by the way, in these clashes, the forces of Free France acted together with the USA and the World Bank and, as a rule, they ended pretty quickly with non-military methods. By the way, the SF began its first operations in Africa at the end of 1940 - even before the start of the Second World War. What they believed in London and Washington is their problem

                    Quote: rocket757
                    Only the firm position of I. Stalin saved France from the occupation regime and, at his insistence, it was included in the anti-Hitler camp.

                    Read the originals (correspondence of Stalin / Churchill / Roosevelt, minutes of the Yalta Conference), and not stupid propaganda garbage.
                    As for the black pages of history, no one denies in France (there were no saints in WWII - every major state has its skeletons in the closet) the shame of the Vichy regime and the actions of collaborators
                    1. 0
                      18 July 2019 07: 15
                      Quote: nks
                      Read the originals

                      Let's put a point over Yo!
                      1. Consider that the submarine can, wants to, "butt" with aviation .... just as a joke, the assessment of the article was appropriate. They love, they love all sorts of different to make incorrect, pretentious comparisons with loud names, such as "killer SU **" or something else. It was and will be ... there will be corresponding answers from different sides. This is what keeps the media interested! Such a time, such journalists ... however, politicians match them.
                      2. "Butting" the French with their cousins, this is not for anti-Hitler affairs, this is for TERRITORY. FOR THE COLONIES .... i.e. it is THEIR case and Stalin's role in that matter .... the topic is complex., not for her conversation in general.
                      3. The participation of various voluntary and other groups in the struggle against the USSR (against Bolshevism, as they prefer to say) is a separate issue, it is and we have not forgotten. Here representatives of most countries geyropov were noted !!!
                      4. The participation of states in the struggle against the USSR, ie declaration of war and the participation of the regular army in hostilities on the side of Germany is also a separate issue, moreover, it is not so simple and requires careful consideration and evaluation!
                      In general, it was not worth confusing flies with cutlets !!! Submarines will never be a serious element of air defense and cannot even really protect themselves from aviation! That’s what I wanted to say initially .... the rest simply stuck, do not understand how, like word for word, it started!
                      1. nks
                        0
                        18 July 2019 10: 31
                        It is reasonable, though not completely, but I will not comment on your "final sketches". As for the actual topic of the article (it is traditionally quite useless to comment on Damantsev's article itself), that is, specific scenarios for the use of such an air defense system, they do not imply integration into the general air defense system (although in some cases this is possible). By the way, it's not a fact that the French will immediately equip their Suffrens with them - it is quite possible they will save money and they will first go for export

                        Quote: rocket757
                        Such a time, such journalists ... however, they fit into politics

                        Yes, and commentators too :)
                      2. +1
                        18 July 2019 11: 25
                        Quote: nks
                        but I will not comment on your "sketches at last".

                        the dispute simply went beyond what is permissible, I apologize.
                        I just perceive the article itself as a joke-humor, there is no other way to evaluate it!
                3. 0
                  18 July 2019 01: 02
                  Around 500 thousand French fought on the side of the Axis countries. About the 33-I waffen-grenadier SS division "Charlemagne" (1-I French) is written intelligently below.
                  And here is the real "occupation"
                  https://bigpicture.ru/?p=112006
                  Now tell us about practically non-existent poppies.
                  1. 0
                    18 July 2019 07: 20
                    Quote: pudelartemon
                    About 500 thousand French fought on the side of the Axis countries.

                    France, as a state, did not declare war on the USSR, this is a fact! Some of the French fought against fascism, this is also a fact .... the scale and range of participation, these are already subjective assessments !!! Let's not forget the "Normandie Niemen", let's not forget the French legions on our front, against us !!!
                    Everyone got what they deserve!
                    PS ... a serious partisan movement, resistance, this is only Yugoslavia! So the country without serious resistance to the Nazis did not give up! In other countries .... in general, ALL geyropa worked for Germany!
                    1. 0
                      18 July 2019 21: 45
                      Only THREE countries showed serious partisan resistance - Yugoslavia, Poland and the USSR.
                      1. 0
                        19 July 2019 07: 00
                        Quote: Okolotochny
                        Only THREE countries showed serious partisan resistance - Yugoslavia, Poland and the USSR.

                        We don’t like to remember Poland, too difficult relations, confrontation and war, for many years! They had partisans and the Germans seized the country in battle ...... this is a fact.
      3. -1
        17 July 2019 16: 34
        Hat-taker
      4. +1
        17 July 2019 20: 03
        Quote: NEXUS
        it is time for dumplings to appear in Paris.

        Andrew, hello! hi
        Yes, they will only say "thank you" for this: their Arabs from Algeria have already brought them to a heart attack! Remember July 14! This is no longer Bastille Day, but the victory of the Algerian national football team ... And the paddling pools between their tails and wiped themselves off like that, tolerantly! D "Artanyans, damn note!
        1. +1
          17 July 2019 20: 46
          Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
          D "Artanyans, damn note!

          Sasha welcome! hi
          How's Wang? Europe will speak Arabic. wassat And the grandmother was right.
      5. +1
        17 July 2019 21: 25
        Now cock again

        So they have a rooster - a symbol of France, that’s cocked laughing
    2. nks
      +4
      17 July 2019 09: 06
      Essentially at Damantsev and others
    3. +1
      17 July 2019 10: 30
      And we do not? ay !! We constantly challenge someone! so don’t need Lala)!
      1. 0
        18 July 2019 07: 25
        Quote: Karislav
        And we do not? ay !! We constantly challenge someone! so don’t need Lala)!

        For all, consider so. Journalists can not be redone, worse when officials engage in boltology .... it happens!
  2. +3
    17 July 2019 05: 08
    Frankly, the provocative headline on the Navy Naval Aviation Day! Challenge .... well, well, they do. Happy holiday to you Sea Pilots!
  3. +14
    17 July 2019 05: 10
    Each article by Eugene is an aspiration to keep us "on edge", because the adversary has quietly and imperceptibly crept up to our house, and we don't even move our ears! But, seriously, the author, as it were, makes it clear that the French have built a more dangerous submarine for us than we thought. Although, Eugene is right in the main - we are slowly surrounded by military facilities, and our reaction does not correspond to the level of threat to the country's security. We are all giggles, hakhanks, and then, as it were, we did not have to cry bloody tears. ..
    1. 0
      17 July 2019 11: 53
      Quote: Thrifty
      we are quietly surrounded by military facilities, and our reaction does not correspond to the level of threat to the country's security.

      Unfortunately, the threat to the country's security is not equal to the threat to the security of the ruling class.
      Any serious mobilization of society against an external threat inevitably leads to an increase in the ability of the lower classes to resist the arbitrariness of the upper levels (although it temporarily reduces such a need), and this is the worst nightmare of the current authorities. So they would rather surrender the country without a fight in the hope of warm places in the occupation administration, rather than risk their own well-being, allowing the people to unite.
  4. +4
    17 July 2019 05: 30
    The articles of some authors make me strongly associated with the statements of the First Secretaries of the rural district committees of the CPSU of the late USSR, when they (secretaries) were in the region the main experts in all matters - from astronomy to gynecology. fool
  5. +2
    17 July 2019 06: 01
    Complete surrealism!

    Admittedly, in such a small volume there are many lotions. But a mediocre result. 4 TA, 50 days sailing autonomy, average speed indicators, 60 crew members.

    Includes 4's quartermaster - Vicki was stunned and did not give an answer what they do there ...

    Yes, I almost forgot: the red pompom on the peak ...
    1. +2
      17 July 2019 06: 19
      Based on the fact that Barakuda is a submarine hunter, then 4 quickly rechargeable TAs are the minimum sufficiency.
    2. +11
      17 July 2019 08: 44
      This is a pronounced hunter. All in stealth and HOOK. Its combat use is either in a picket in the north to meet SSBNs running out of the alarm base. Or play different games with ICAPL going around the corner.
      1. nks
        +4
        17 July 2019 09: 10
        Its main application is the PLO coast of France, as well as the PLO ships warrant. Plus shock features
        1. +4
          17 July 2019 09: 12
          PLO is the main thing. Well, where - there is already a debatable issue.
          Impact capabilities - there is a bonus. If they are attracted, then they should be able to participate in democratization. But this is not his main task. It would be the main one, they would run the VPU for the SLCM as in Virginia.
          1. nks
            +4
            17 July 2019 09: 23
            Where - it just doesn’t really depend on the technical component of the boat. Tasks can be read in the white paper. As for bonus percussion capabilities - partly yes, but I must say that this is what distinguishes the new generation from Rubis. By the way, in the version for Australia, it seems like they are going to make VPU, but not the fact that this greatly increases the speed of the volley - it depends on the reload speed of the SL.
    3. +11
      17 July 2019 09: 21
      Quote: Mikhail Drabkin
      Includes 4's quartermaster - Vicki was stunned and did not give an answer what they do there ...

      The word “quartermaster” in the navies of the English-speaking countries is not of German origin "Quartiermeister", which implied intendant functions in the German army. It comes from the English "quartermaster". Simplified, it means the commander / chief of the quarter deck.
      Quarterdeck - a platform on the bow of the ship, so called because it occupied a quarter of the length of the ship. The pirate rammed the merchant with this place, and there the boarding team gathered there, waiting for the fight. In other words, the quartermaster in the English-speaking fleets of those times is the commander of the boarding party. Interpolating this function for our time, we can assume that the modern quartermaster is the commander of one of the warheads of the ship.
      1. +4
        17 July 2019 09: 46
        Thanks for the very reasonable ++ answer!
      2. +1
        17 July 2019 10: 25
        Quote: Normal ok
        Quarterdeck - a platform on the bow of the ship, so called because it occupied a quarter of the length of the ship. The pirate rammed the merchant with this place, and there the boarding team gathered there, waiting for the fight.

        In fact, wherever I've seen, Quarterdeck is the raised part of the upper deck. aft vessel.

        It turns out they rammed stern?
        1. +1
          17 July 2019 15: 52
          Quote: iConst
          Quote: Normal ok
          Quarterdeck - a platform on the bow of the ship, so called because it occupied a quarter of the length of the ship. The pirate rammed the merchant with this place, and there the boarding team gathered there, waiting for the fight.

          In fact, wherever I've seen, Quarterdeck is the raised part of the upper deck. aft vessel.
          It turns out they rammed stern?

          Sorry, mixed everything together. They rammed, of course, with the bow. And before boarding, they gathered on the quarterdeck, which was in the stern. But, the origin of the term "quartermaster" (as applied to the fleet) is described correctly.
          Thank you for correcting.
      3. +1
        17 July 2019 22: 39
        Quote: Normal ok
        It comes from the English "quartermaster". Simplified, it means the commander / chief of the quarter deck.

        Most likely these are the "section commanders" of the submarine. At least it is logical to assume so.
    4. 0
      17 July 2019 16: 28
      Quote: Mikhail Drabkin
      Includes 4's quartermaster - Vicki was stunned and did not give an answer what they do there ...

      I somehow immediately remembered one one-legged quartermaster ... he still moonlighted as a cook. smile
      1. -1
        18 July 2019 16: 23
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Quote: Mikhail Drabkin
        Includes 4's quartermaster - Vicki was stunned and did not give an answer what they do there ...

        I somehow immediately remembered one one-legged quartermaster ... he still moonlighted as a cook. smile

        This is a linguistic mistake (read above), which walks through different books and films. Most likely the prototype of John Silver, before losing his leg, was a quartermaster. Why was Flint afraid of him. For quartememeister is the chief thug on the ship.
  6. +2
    17 July 2019 06: 14
    And God forbid you to read Damantsev before dinner .....
    as usual a lot of interesting facts, but the analysis and conclusions let us down
  7. -2
    17 July 2019 07: 00
    It is unlikely that Sufren and Plo aviation will generally meet anywhere.
    unless a helicopter
  8. +3
    17 July 2019 07: 10
    The question to the author is how deep the launch is.
    It is interesting whether the rocket engine functions stably during media separation (water / air).
    1. +4
      17 July 2019 08: 26
      Quote: knn54
      The question to the author is how deep the launch is.
      It is interesting whether the rocket engine functions stably during media separation (water / air).


      I am not the author, but I can answer. The start-up depth is periscope, the French have been developing this air defense system for a long time, I think they have worked out the reliability of the engine. In the end, the engines of the KR and BR operate normally.
      1. nks
        +4
        17 July 2019 09: 12
        Depth of launch like a conventional torpedo (it actually starts in it), the question is in the control center
  9. +3
    17 July 2019 07: 18
    I do not even know. If a submarine uses an air defense system it means it has already been detected and it doesn’t matter to kirdyk ... If you use it yourself, it means to reveal yourself and see p1. And X - shaped plumage what is it so wonderful? Except for complicated management? And how interesting does it affect streamlining? Traditional feathering, by the way, is also a cross. Well, they turned it forty degrees, and why?
    1. +8
      17 July 2019 08: 49
      Well, it’s not a fact that they were discovered for sure, perhaps they noticed and narrowed the circle. Shchuke-B can only go deeper, hide in the water and pretend to be a rag trying to dump in low speed. Suffern can swim up to the periscope and shoot down a single or even paired Ka-27 / Il-38. Then from this circle to dump on 20 nodes.

      And it’s still unclear who has the best chance of falling down. In Pike-B with a passive position, hide and leave in low speed. Or Sufferen with the ability to quickly bring down one or two units of aviation PLO and quickly leave quickly.
      1. +2
        17 July 2019 11: 22
        Quote: donavi49
        And it’s still unclear who has the best chance of falling down. In Pike-B with a passive position, hide and leave in low speed. Or Sufferen with the ability to quickly bring down one or two units of aviation PLO and quickly leave quickly.

        There are a number of inconsistencies. And how does the submarine crew find out about the presence of an airplane / helicopter and its position relative to the boat? What is the capture range of the infrared seeker and how is the rocket controlled before the target is captured by its own seeker?
        1. +1
          17 July 2019 13: 18
          It can be assumed that the initial target designation of the boat will be given from aviation. Since the enemy will be maneuverable and weakly protected, defeat will be possible. As soon as the rocket comes out, as the author wrote, it will receive direct precise target designation. The idea is generally good, it’s pretty easy to work out in exercises. True, the size of the torpedo container is too big for one racket, but you can’t bring it back. Or am I wrong?
          1. +3
            17 July 2019 16: 48
            Quote: Anton
            It can be assumed that the initial target designation of the boat will be given from aviation.

            If there is "alien" aviation in the air, then where are the PLO aircraft / helicopters from? These unarmed vehicles are highly discouraged from entering areas where there is an enemy air force.
            And one more question - how to transfer the control center to a submarine going under water?
          2. 0
            17 July 2019 18: 18
            The principle of operation of "Longbow" amersky. Once he smeared, took off the information and hid. And according to these data, the target is hit from behind cover.
            Technology for over 20 years, or do you think the French are worse than Amers?
            1. +1
              18 July 2019 10: 56
              Quote: VVAU
              Technology for over 20 years, or do you think the French are worse than Amers?

              I believe that the submarine is still slightly different from the helicopter. A PLO plane (as a target) - from a tank or armored personnel carrier. A tank or armored personnel carrier does not move in three planes and does not develop a speed of hundreds of kilometers per hour.
        2. +3
          17 July 2019 16: 30
          Quote: user1212
          And how does the submarine crew find out about the presence of an airplane / helicopter and its position relative to the boat?

          Passive acoustics. In the best case, according to the RSL pouring into the water. At worst, torpedoes enter the water. smile
          1. -2
            17 July 2019 18: 15
            Yeah....
            He finds out, do not hesitate before the plane detects it.
            Google rtr.
            The plane in the area is in contact with UHF. Works radar, diss, PB.
            If you started the production, RSL beacons will work.
            And the boat has its own radar. And on our sides there was no RTR equipment.
            Cherry shoved at one time, but then removed.
            On Orion is. They took our boats from radar radiation.
            And on the air they issued a contact snoop tray.
            1. +4
              17 July 2019 19: 54
              Quote: VVAU
              Google rtr.
              The plane in the area is in contact with UHF. Works radar, diss, PB.
              If you started the production, RSL beacons will work.

              Do you seriously suggest that submarines in the area of ​​aviation of an enemy PLO go under the periscope, with a set of antennas extended to the surface? belay
              Or does someone have PLO aircraft with radar operating in the range of AE and ADD?
              Quote: VVAU
              And the boat has its own radar.

              Shika-a-arno ... is it nothing that radar radiation is detected at a distance greater than the range of confident reception of a given radar of its reflected pulse? That is, the aircraft still does not see the radar of the submarine, and the plane already detects the radar radiation, classifies and determines the location of the submarine by bearings. The smart way to unmask for submarines, just gorgeous. And the submarine is very lucky if at the point from which the radiation is recorded, the PLUR does not arrive.
              1. +1
                17 July 2019 20: 10
                I wrote everything in "Non-Tradition". Even with pictures.
                http://samlib.ru/s/semenow_aleksandr_sergeewich333/netraditionpictureschast-1.shtml
                I see no reason to repeat it for the tenth time.
                The anti-submarine aircraft has NOTHING to detect a working radar boat. This is not Orion :-)
                1. -1
                  18 July 2019 03: 07
                  Quote: VVAU
                  The anti-submarine aircraft has NOTHING to detect a working radar boat. This is not Orion :-)

                  On an airplane, the faculty is quite capable of detecting the mast itself, and the anti-submarine ship has something to detect and the radio signal. The search for the nuclear submarines is not carried out alone, especially if they are going to drown it.
                  1. 0
                    18 July 2019 05: 59
                    Hmm ... :-) situations are different. I don’t want to argue because of the advantage.
                    I started as a navigator on the Be-12 and IL-38. And he finished his service as a senior officer in the anti-submarine warfare department of the Kamchatka flotilla.
                    There is an article, for example, "Anti-submarine warfare. View from the SSSR"
                    He wrote everything there.
                2. 0
                  18 July 2019 11: 04
                  Quote: VVAU
                  I see no reason to repeat it for the tenth time.
                  The anti-submarine aircraft has NOTHING to detect a working radar boat. This is not Orion :-)

                  That is, our PLO aircraft are deprived of RTR funds? It turns out that the same "Los" can calmly check with its radar the presence of PLO aircraft in the air, and until the Ilyushin radar station sees it, the aircraft crew will not know about the presence of the PL? But... belay

                  I was considering the case when a normal modern PLO aircraft is opposed to a submarine.
                  1. +1
                    18 July 2019 11: 29
                    I would also like to see a normal modern PLA (anti-submarine aircraft) aircraft.
                3. 0
                  18 July 2019 14: 34
                  Are you the author of "Non-Tradition"?
        3. nks
          0
          17 July 2019 23: 12
          Recognizes the acoustic radiation of a sonar from a PLO helicopter. As an option, it is possible from the periscope. In general, the main goal is primarily PLO helicopters, although PLCs too. In principle, in the sonar descent mode, the helicopter hangs low - it must be detected by its own noises. The main application scenario, when the boat has already been spotted in order to be able to leave and prevent the use of submarine torpedoes from a helicopter. The missile is controlled on the basis of the primary control unit. The range depends on .. but given that the PLO helicopters are usually large, and the MICA-IR in the BB variant is designed for a range of 50 km +, I think it can capture quite quickly after leaving the water and starting up.
      2. -1
        17 July 2019 18: 21
        If the plane was destroyed, then you do not need to quickly leave :-)
        The next one will not appear soon, if at all. They don’t fly kamikaze there either, they’ll figure out what and how they will score for the departure :-)
  10. 0
    17 July 2019 07: 58
    The French, as always, the 203mm guns in the boat will vkaryachat now SAMs without radar detection
    1. +2
      17 July 2019 08: 25
      Quote: FoxNova
      The French, as always, the 203mm guns in the boat will vkaryachat now SAMs without radar detection


      The thermal imager on the periscope mast perfectly cope with the task of finding aircraft and helicopters PLO. It will be necessary, and will add a comfortable radar.
      1. +3
        17 July 2019 08: 36
        ... conformal radar
      2. +2
        17 July 2019 11: 30
        Quote: AVM
        It will be necessary, and will add a comfortable radar.

        Here is a gift to anti-submarine ships
        1. 0
          17 July 2019 17: 08
          Quote: user1212
          Quote: AVM
          It will be necessary, and will add a comfortable radar.

          Here is a gift to anti-submarine ships


          It can work in the passive mode or in the mode with a low probability of interception.
      3. +3
        17 July 2019 15: 23
        Why not a raven’s nest and a staring one? Or am I missing something, and stealth is no longer the main advantage in boats?
      4. +2
        17 July 2019 16: 56
        Quote: AVM
        The thermal imager on the periscope mast perfectly cope with the task of finding aircraft and helicopters PLO. It will be necessary, and will add a comfortable radar.

        Can you tell me the detection range of the periscope of the onboard radar of a patrol aircraft?
        Or the range of detection of radar radiation by RTR aircraft equipment?

        You suggest a saboteur stalking in the reeds to put a pole over his head with a ball at the end. And then hang on the pole also a flasher. smile
        1. 0
          17 July 2019 20: 32
          IL-38 Iskal locator periskom? Honestly. I have not tried it. There is an MPM mode (micro terrain plan), but it’s like in a sniper scope to observe around.
          RTR ukv rst, horizon. From flight altitude.
          Amers two observers with binoculars sit side by side. Everyone here is busy with his own business, only the right-winger can stare at the window on a search. Moreover, the sector there is only forward.
          1. -1
            18 July 2019 04: 04
            Quote: VVAU
            IL-38 Iskal locator periskom? Honestly. I have not tried

            It’s strange. Back in World War II it turned out
            1. +1
              18 July 2019 06: 06
              Then they were looking not for a periscope, but for an RDP. The image intensifier is different. If there was something like "Needles", as on the IL-20, And with the Berkut's range of 3 cm ... I do not exclude if they tell me the place and I start to stare there, maybe I will see it from 10-20 km ...
              It’s unrealistic to do it now. No, you can search, but for a long time and with minimal result. :-)
              1. 0
                18 July 2019 07: 15
                Quote: VVAU
                If there was something like an "Needle" like on the IL-20

                The story is worse?
                1. +1
                  18 July 2019 07: 44
                  Range left centimeter.
                  Compare the size of the needle millim range and fairing IL-38.
                  The needle gave the radar a picture of photographic quality.
                  And in Novella, new transmitters and another element base were installed, leaving the old radar plate.
                  There is infa on the network why the Indians from the Serpent got their name in favor of Poseidon.
                  1. +1
                    18 July 2019 07: 49
                    I found it ....

                         'The first Indian Il-38 was sent for modernization on March 29, 2002 and returned to the customer in the new' guise 'of the Il-38SD only on January 15, 2006. The second aircraft was sent for modernization in December 2003. However, the update did not meet the expectations of the Indians: during the tests, the Sea Serpent system was unable to detect the submarine. As a result, in September 2007, the Indians suspended payments for upgrades and asked for re-testing. However, the contractors took the Indian request almost as an insult and stated that they (the Indians) were putting forward specifications not previously specified in the contract. '

                    The Kawasaki P-1 "radar is all-mode, and can operate in both aperture synthesis mode and inverse aperture synthesis mode. The characteristics and location of the antennas give a 360-degree view at each time. It is this radar that 'reads' those wave effects on surface of the water, and above it, thanks to which modern anti-submarine aircraft simply 'see' the boat under water. Naturally, the detection of surface targets, periscopes, RPD devices released by submarines, or air targets for such a radar is not absolutely a problem. "
                    1. 0
                      18 July 2019 17: 06
                      In this case, it must be recognized that the military-industrial complex of the USSR created and the Defense Ministry adopted an initially useless aircraft, as in 69, when the aircraft was put into service, the US Navy no longer had diesel boats in its structure (the latter was launched in 59, and although it was in the fleet before 90, it was clearly not a threat), and its radar was initially useless against the submarines . Why, then, in 2010, all 5 aircraft were brought to the SD version, and P1 did not appear at them ...?
                      However, the impossibility of detecting masts above water with Il38 equipment still raises my doubts. I will get acquainted with the topic in more detail
                      1. +1
                        18 July 2019 18: 03
                        I spoke not about the impossibility of searching for retractable devices using radar, but about the low probability.
                        This was not practiced, although in the KBP (course of battles) there is an exercise-project for visual and search of the square. Like so.
                        There were two sightings on the memory mile. Once in Avach Bay a foreigner, the crew of Biryukov, in the late 70s. I watched the shooting.
                        Our second 675 Ave in Okhotsk. I posted the photo in the article "Anti-submarine defense. A view from the USSR".
                        In my summer 1985.
                        And I don’t remember the detection of retractable radars.
                      2. val
                        0
                        22 July 2019 11: 38
                        This is true. In the second part of the story "Tradition" this is clearly stated. Tupolev grabbed everything he could for himself, leaving a piece for the A-40 at the plant in Taganrog. Both the carrier and the weapon and the search facility. The lack of competition spawned a monster, big and scary, but not effective.
  11. -6
    17 July 2019 08: 14
    Domantseva stopped reading from the word now only I see the signature and I don’t read the nonsense of all the nonsense.
    1. -2
      17 July 2019 09: 13
      Quote: dr.mel51
      now I see only the signature and do not read the nonsense of all the prowess at all.

      it’s like that and the ostrich hides it in the head too in the sand and all the problems are side
      1. 0
        17 July 2019 09: 46
        If an ostrich in fact hides its head in the sand this is one thing, and if only in cartoons it is another.
    2. -1
      17 July 2019 12: 09
      Quote: dr.mel51
      Domantseva stopped reading from the word now only I see the signature and I don’t read the nonsense of all the nonsense.

      Learn to write correctly. And then discuss, otherwise the value of your conclusions tends to 0
  12. +5
    17 July 2019 08: 24
    Air defense systems on submarines are inevitable. And for the Russian Navy, this issue is of particular relevance due to the absence of large surface forces capable of creating an air defense "umbrella". The assertions that the discovered submarine will be immediately destroyed, regardless of whether it has air defense or not, are unfounded, since the question arises of how it will be destroyed? If there is a submarine or an enemy surface ship nearby, within the range of missile-torpedoes or torpedoes, then the enemy’s submarine aircraft / helicopter, before being killed by submarine air defense, can reset the submarine's approximate coordinates if it has time. And if there is no one near, then until they get to the area, the submarine can hide again, or, if the enemy ship / submarine goes to her at high speed, detect them first and attack. Will a new plane arrive? The fate of the first will befall him.

    Aircraft over water is extremely vulnerable, because no terrain, no place to hide. At a minimum, this will change the tactics of aviation on submarines, shift the focus on UAVs that are obviously less effective.

    An important milestone will be the appearance on the submarine of the ZS with the AP GOS, capable of effectively knocking down targets that will try to hide below the radio horizon, as well as relatively high-altitude targets.

    Earlier, last year, I examined this question in detail.

    Atomic multifunctional submarine cruiser: an asymmetric response to the West - https://topwar.ru/139618-atomnyy-mnogofunkcionalnyy-podvodnyy-kreyser-asimmetrichnyy-otvet.html

    Atomic multifunctional submarine cruiser: paradigm shift - https://topwar.ru/143629-atomnyy-mnogofunkcionalnyy-podvodnyy-kreyser-kak-smena-paradigmy.html
  13. 0
    17 July 2019 08: 59
    How the frog exosets exploded in the Falklands, we remember, one in 10 ... The Gauls only have one leading military firm, Thales.
    1. +1
      17 July 2019 19: 56
      Quote: Shtat
      How the frog exosets exploded in the Falklands, we remember, one of 10

      And that’s nothing that Argentines had total 5 "exosets"? wink
      I have two deputies, four of whom have been in the cabinet for a month now and who cannot be appointed.
      © one boxer who has succumbed to mayors
      1. -2
        17 July 2019 21: 23
        one boxer who has succumbed to mayors ...

        Come on you :-)
        One gymnast even climbed into bed with a fairytale :-)
  14. +4
    17 July 2019 09: 51
    The submarine in a submerged position learns that it is time to launch an anti-aircraft missile, after it has been detected and bombed / torpedoed by an anti-submarine aircraft. The use of an anti-aircraft missile against a deck helicopter will end with the destruction of the submarine from the ship’s carrier ship. In any case, the launch of a rocket from under water in the presence of anti-submarine aircraft unmasks the submarine.

    Yes, and how can an anti-aircraft missile capture the target of its own seeker, whose angle of view is 90 degrees - will it make a victory lap?
    1. +1
      17 July 2019 11: 11
      The A3SM can be used from a submerged position, but a developed network centric, a "link" and already known data on an air target are required. The submarine was given some share of the air defense potential of the submarine, but the submarine going on the surface and under the periscope both makes noise and visually unmasks itself more, and remote radars in active mode unmask submarines just beyond the horizon. If only an ambush tactic, but the boat again needs an external control center for this. The portable OLS also has its own limitations, which are approximately equal to the capabilities of modern radio and acoustic location. Therefore, even if they use A3SM, then only as a last resort, when the stealth factor is zeroed and a "last chance" tool is needed (which submarines are basically deprived of from the air enemy).
      1. +4
        17 July 2019 19: 59
        Quote: g1washntwn
        The A3SM can be used from a submerged position, but a developed network centric, a "link" and already known data on an air target are required.

        Network-centricity in relation to submarines rests on one small problem: it is necessary to provide a data channel with good throughput, working in two environments (including water) and at the same time not unmasking the submarines and not reducing its maneuverability (yes, this I hint at the undesirability of ADD due to the epic dimensions of the antennas and low bandwidth). smile
        1. 0
          18 July 2019 09: 36
          Yes. With submarines, in general, everything rests on its main trump card - secrecy. Therefore, I consider air defense for submarines only as the last chance from PLO aviation. The Kriegsmarines in WWII were good at chasing naval reconnaissance officers with their Flak 38 / M42, but this is from the same "last chance" series, the U-Flak boot as a trap for naval aviation did not justify itself.
          1. +1
            18 July 2019 12: 33
            Quote: g1washntwn
            The Kriegsmarines in WWII were good at chasing naval reconnaissance officers with their Flak 38 / M42, but this is from the same "last chance" series, the U-Flak boot as a trap for naval aviation did not justify itself.

            The U-Flak boot was good against "clean" ASWs that only carried depth charges. Even the traditional American PLO-link with AVE - Wildcat + Avenger - was already a problem for the submarine. And as soon as the PLO aircraft acquired NARs, the anti-aircraft missiles became a target.
  15. +1
    17 July 2019 10: 58
    Funny unit turns out. It is possible that over time, all countries will come to this. Previously, the submarine could secretly sink ships, then it became possible to launch land strikes, now it adds planes / helicopters.
    It is quite possible that in a compartment with container systems or universal launchers, it all looks good.
  16. +2
    17 July 2019 11: 35
    Quote: g1washntwn
    when the stealth factor is set to zero

    After zeroing, a depth bomb / anti-torpedo drop from the board of an anti-submarine aircraft or launch of a missile torpedo from a surface ship follows immediately. So the anti-aircraft missile, which is in service with the nuclear submarine, is at best a way of revenge for its death from the PLO weapons.
    1. +1
      17 July 2019 12: 14
      Quote: Operator
      Quote: g1washntwn
      when the stealth factor is set to zero

      After zeroing, a depth bomb / counter torpedo discharge immediately follows

      To save an anti-submarine aircraft from torpedoes attacking it?
      1. 0
        17 July 2019 12: 39
        A submarine in a submerged position can only hear an anti-submarine aircraft flying directly above the submarine at a height of 100-200 meters from the sea surface in the process of probing the water mass with a magnetometer. But the depth at which the noise of aircraft jet engines is audible is several times smaller than the depth of detection of submarines using a SQUID magnetometer.

        Therefore, the anti-submarine aircraft will detect the submarine earlier and will drop the depth charges / anti-torpedoes to destroy the submarine, than the submarine will hear the aircraft and launch an anti-aircraft missile.
        1. +1
          17 July 2019 12: 41
          Quote: Operator
          An underwater submarine can only hear an anti-submarine aircraft flying at an altitude of 100-200 meters in the process of sounding the sea with a magnetometer. But the depth at which the noise of the jet engines of the aircraft is heard is several times smaller than the depth of detection of nuclear submarines using a SQUID magnetometer.

          Therefore, the anti-submarine aircraft will detect the submarine earlier and will drop the depth charges / anti-torpedoes to destroy the submarine, than the submarine will hear the aircraft and launch an anti-aircraft missile.

          Why torpedoes? Will the plane protect itself from torpedoes or protect the enemy pl from torpedoes?
          1. +1
            17 July 2019 12: 45
            I apologize - you need to read the aircraft torpedoes.
        2. -1
          17 July 2019 17: 59
          Are you kidding again? :-)
          The antenna is being produced, it is detecting the work of the aircraft radar and the work of the defectives of the RSL.
          It was still with me, in the 80s of the last century.
          1. 0
            17 July 2019 19: 36
            Why should an anti-submarine aircraft include an onboard radar when searching for nuclear submarines using a magnetometer?

            And why should the nuclear submarine rise to the periscope depth and raise the antenna (and even without the assurance of anti-submarine aviation over it) - so that the submarine could be more easily detected using the same radar?

            The only safe way to make sure that an anti-submarine aircraft is operating near a nuclear submarine is to hear bursts of a splashdown of the RSL and explosions of deep grenades (as an acoustic illumination of the RSL).

            Everything is much simpler - the submarine only needs to be equipped with effective anti-torpedoes to intercept aircraft torpedoes, and a gravitational depth bomb with a non-nuclear warhead to get the aircraft into a maneuvering submarine is unrealistic.

            In general - the French know a lot about perversions.
            1. +1
              17 July 2019 20: 06
              Quote: Operator
              The only safe way to make sure that an anti-submarine aircraft is operating near a nuclear submarine is to hear bursts of a splashdown of the RSL and explosions of deep grenades (as an acoustic illumination of the RSL).

              Is Julie still in service? She, it seems, has long been written off.
              1. +1
                17 July 2019 20: 21
                :-)
                Even with us back in the USSR, VISA has stopped applying, rare shit.
                Americans they still drove our -641 during the Caribbean crisis.
                Maybe some will reach the extent of our lag?
                Nobody pops up anywhere. Small paravan with a cable trail. I took the work of an aircraft radar, well, or other devices — I shot (like our VIPs) an interference transmitter to the rgb channel, it surfaced, released the antenna, at the SPI disco.
                Next boat you can not look :-)
                This is the 80s of the last century.
              2. 0
                17 July 2019 21: 58
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Is Julie still in service?

                And what else, besides deep-seated grenades, to acoustically illuminate the water area "seeded" by the RSL?
            2. val
              +1
              17 July 2019 20: 56
              Already discussed. Everything is tied to the locator, it is possible to reduce the signal power.

              "...> Alexander Sergeevich. Such is the question. Locators, which, as it were, dosed the radiation.> Our submariners estimated the distance to Orion by the signal strength. Maybe that's why the RTR reconnaissance of the Dudko boat did not detect the operation of the aircraft's radar? Orion-A. In general, of course it is different. Depending on the scale on which you work. On "Berkut" in the "Review" mode it is constant. If you work with the RSL, then the power was "cut." But this is still with those ancient computers. On the right below. http://ipic.su/img/img7/fs/RLS.1561206069.jpg Orion itself has a different radar. That is, there are two of them - in the front and rear sectors. They had problems with the synchronization of their work. But again, this was the beginning of the 70s. Now, of course, the power is dosed. Well, it is not difficult for submarines to detect a working Orion radar. "
              1. +1
                17 July 2019 21: 37
                Well yes, it was discussed how Orion’s submariners yawned. He had a signal dosing, and then RTR then estimated the distance to the aircraft by the signal power. They think Orion is far away, but he is already with a spotlight above the boat :-)
            3. +1
              17 July 2019 21: 33
              Why should an anti-submarine aircraft include an onboard radar when searching for nuclear submarines using a magnetometer?

              Well hello :-) I need to get attached if the capes are visible. At 3000, for example, I took bearings, a place, went down to search with upm. I put a marker from the place, but it doesn’t work without a radar, and I won’t see it.
              Well, I’m tacking, unsubscribing, I threw the ombab, I jumped out onto the 600 ring. And at this moment I need to turn on the radar, wait until the scan is sent. And at this time I’m doing something dofig. Unsubscribe on the tablet. So that the ring does not become an egg :-)
              But I wrote, diss works (dopple speed and drift meter).
              The commander at low altitudes needs a rv-5 radio altimeter. And he also radiates. And the connection in the VHF with the side of the pair. Reporting what I'm doing.
              No, turning off the radar to the fruit of the NK will do, but it’s quite possible to screw up without it.
              1. 0
                17 July 2019 21: 54
                Binding to the coordinates is now carried out using satellite navigation systems, altimeter - laser. The anti-aircraft anti-submarine radar aircraft are practically not turned on when operating against submarines, since an ascent is not required for recharging the batteries for the submarines.
                1. +1
                  17 July 2019 22: 56
                  :-) :-) :-) :-)
                  Until 2015, somehow everything turned on. I myself turned it on. Maybe in 4 years what has changed?
                  This is where you read all this? Just chicavo.
                  1. 0
                    17 July 2019 23: 07
                    Himself - on what plane: IL-38, Tu-142, P-8?
                    1. 0
                      18 July 2019 01: 08
                      Be-12, IL-38.
                      1. 0
                        18 July 2019 01: 42
                        Then everything is clear with satellite navigation.
                      2. 0
                        18 July 2019 06: 12
                        No, well, there’s GI esca on board. Bought for her :-)
                        When the board was driven to St. Petersburg under Novella, it seems the 24th, I fotal. There it hangs on the panel, a yellow one :-)
                        There is in the story "Commanders ... points"
                      3. 0
                        18 July 2019 06: 42
                        He looked, it turned out they drove into Pushkin 07 board (((
                        Sclerosis.
                        The story is here.
                        http://zhurnal.lib.ru/s/semenow_aleksandr_sergeewich333/komandirovka.shtml
                      4. val
                        0
                        22 July 2019 11: 43
                        ...............
    2. -1
      17 July 2019 18: 05
      Are you kidding again? Stealth Factor Zero :-)
      Secrecy is not a factor.
      It has two signs, plus and minus. Or it is or not.
      You somehow terminology ... well, learn something.
      Like doctors .... prostate adenoids ..... The same blunder.
      How to write something, at least take out the saints.
  17. +3
    17 July 2019 11: 45
    but how does pl understand when to shoot?
    she does not see anything
    Or does it mean periscope depth?
  18. +2
    17 July 2019 14: 10
    The phrase at the beginning of the article "We decided to get away from the erroneous practice of superficial assessment of the combat capabilities of one or another model of promising military equipment " and signature at the end of the article Author:
    Evgeny Damantsev
    - things are mutually exclusive, like matter and antimatter.
  19. +2
    17 July 2019 17: 54
    Maybe I don’t understand what, but HOW does the PL know that an airplane is flying near it? It is unlikely that the Aegis are also standing on it.
  20. -1
    17 July 2019 17: 56
    Yes, cool they sting displacement.
    They made amerskie Virginia. :-)
    1. nks
      0
      18 July 2019 13: 24
      Increased - before the type of Ryubi even less (~ 2 times :)
  21. +1
    17 July 2019 18: 00
    Quote: NEXUS
    The French WAS on the side of the Nazis.

    Even the Reichstag defended, but the lesson for them is not in vain.

    If it weren’t for Stalin’s efforts to promote De Gaulle, there wouldn’t be any treasured Japanese allies in the USSR, Great Britain and the USA.

    PS In the first volume of correspondence (see photo), Stalin was categorically against Churchill's protege.
    1. -1
      17 July 2019 22: 18
      Quote: Comrade Kim
      Even the Reichstag defended, but the lesson for them is not in vain.

      Absolutely. hi
  22. 0
    17 July 2019 21: 33
    And how the submarine will monitor the airspace in a submerged position. Back in the late 1970s, the British tried something similar to make the SLEM system. Yes, and our atomic in the ammunition included Arrows and Needles, all this is complete nonsense, unfortunately the submarine is defenseless against air strikes
    1. 0
      17 July 2019 21: 45
      Arrows and Needles were more needed to drive away especially annoying observers from the damaged submarines, if necessary. Well, all sorts of helicopter landing-boarding to stop. The needle, if I am not mistaken, can also visit the Zodiac engine.
    2. +1
      18 July 2019 03: 25
      In addition to the British there, the Americans made at least two approaches to the projectile with a similar result - the money was spent successfully, and this is the whole result
    3. 0
      18 July 2019 08: 11
      Quote: sergey k
      And how the submarine will monitor the airspace in a submerged position. Back in the late 1970s, the British tried something similar to make the SLEM system. Yes, and our atomic in the ammunition included Arrows and Needles, all this is complete nonsense, unfortunately the submarine is defenseless against air strikes


      That is what the French are trying to change.
      In fact, sometimes the submarine floats to the periscope depth. The periscope function includes an overview of the airspace.
      1. 0
        19 July 2019 17: 41
        A lot of you at the periscope see air targets?
        1. nks
          0
          19 July 2019 22: 52
          Periscopes are now such optocouplers integrated with BIUS. Many things they can see. Yes, and radar can be raised from the periscope depth.
          https://www.safran-electronics-defense.com/naval-solutions/submarines/masts-and-periscopes
      2. 0
        19 July 2019 17: 43
        The Soviet submarines were equipped with surveillance radars, but they worked only in the surface position.
  23. xax
    +4
    18 July 2019 01: 29
    Let's "dry" the article to a few short quotations, while carrying 98 - 100% of its entire meaning (for ease of perception):

    ... more advanced version of waterproof glue ...
    ... underwater displacement of all in 5300 t ...
    ... combined with the water jet propulsion ...
    ... compact cutting ...
    ... X-shaped tail ...
    ... a single energy center ...

    All of the above facts:
    will allow to reduce the level of acoustic noise "Barracuda" to 45 — 50 dB in Sneak Mode

    The author concludes that all this, combined with:
    An “anti-aircraft” modification of the medium-range air combat missile MICA-IR ..., located in a protective launch capsule launched from 533-mm submarine torpedo tubes.

    is capable of:
    completely unexpected

    become:
    extremely "alarm bell" ... for the crews of anti-submarine helicopters and IL-38Н aircraft ... for tactical aviation crews ... on the distant approaches to the A2 / AD zones


    I, as a person completely untrained in modern naval combat, but trained to think a little and analyze a bit, arise mainly the 2 question:
    1) What, say, for the Il-38N, the detection range (and what defeat) of the submarine (with noise levels of 45-50 dB), the author of the article took into account, assuming that the RVBSD (hello Damantsev!) MICA-IR with a range of 10 - 20 km, is capable of destroying (it is written: become an alarm bell ") this aircraft, and does everyone really fly below the" ceiling "of this rocket - that is, 9 km?
    2) The attack of the enemy aircraft / helicopter, no doubt, will largely give out the submarine and make it vulnerable, which means we have to decide whether this is a normal exchange: nuclear-powered vessel per aircraft / helicopter?
    1. 0
      18 July 2019 03: 20
      Set aside exchange!
      Without preliminary target designation, getting into a plane with this missile is practically impossible. But the launch of the rocket will give out the location of the boat almost guaranteed.

      And the one who gives target designation to the boat along the acoustic path (!) Will collect the due due long before its target designation may be needed
      1. +1
        18 July 2019 06: 21
        Probably, this is an extreme measure.
        If the rocket is used, then there will be no one to give the boat about the boat.
        Well, and probably the French are not fools. There is some kind of missile guidance scheme.
        Above, I wrote-the system of the Central Control Center of the Apache "Long Bow". He stuck out the radar from behind the hill, one turn to remove information, hid again and launches from behind cover. This system is 20 years old. Very similar to a periscope and surveillance radar.
        1. xax
          0
          18 July 2019 21: 54
          Quote: VVAU
          CU Apache "Long Bow". He stuck out the radar from behind the hill, one turn to remove information, hid again and launches from behind cover. This system is 20 years old. Very similar to periscope and surveillance radar

          Only Apache makes this manipulation somewhat faster than a submarine. Will she manage to hide?
          1. val
            +1
            18 July 2019 22: 47
            It takes time to prepare weapons for use from an airplane. If with PPP, then up to 10 minutes. So Artemieaa in his book about the IL-38.
            The question is who should be in time :-)
            After the destruction of the aircraft, you can hide in a hurry :-)
            1. +1
              18 July 2019 23: 00
              This is on the Golden Eagle, while everything is snapping. Narcissus is faster. On the Lilac by hand.
              "I'll tell you one funny thing" (c)
              In the mid-80s, it was recognized that if the boat surfaced in the surface and on the foot it
              than destroy :-)
              At-2 and Apr will not be visited. And there is something with the BUG position (depth setting block)
              Therefore, they ordered to have a reserve of PLAB-250 in the parking lots. So they lay rusted a couple of years.
              Well then, something in the weapon settings was changed.
      2. 0
        18 July 2019 08: 09
        Any launch of the missile will give out the submarines, whether it be Zour, RCC or BR.
        1. +1
          18 July 2019 10: 16
          Will create the prerequisite for reducing stealth. So to speak. In the 80s, our learned to take bearings of SBD packages. Several times we jerked at them, deafly. The readiness of the ZhS was 30-35 minutes, plus arrival in the district, let it be an hour. At 8 knots, it's 12 miles. That is, you obviously need to put an annular covering radius of 13-14. Circumference, setting interval 2 km. Read the buoy consumption.
          If only "Window", then there is a chance.
          1. xax
            +3
            19 July 2019 03: 48
            Quote: VVAU
            parcels SBD. Several times jerked at them deafly.

            Just in this case, all the chances appear laughing
            Judge for yourself: if the submarine already indicates the target, then the plane (target) is within its destruction, and this is 10 - 20 km to the boat, i.e. 2 - 3 minutes fly. At 8 knots it is less than 1 km. Those. ring spanning is quite small).
            1. val
              -1
              20 July 2019 11: 19
              Peleng center in Vladik. Another in Khabarovsk. She is alone near Petropavlovsk 5th MPO. Direction finding error, a triangle with sides of 20 km.
              Standby aircraft, readiness 30 minutes. To the district an hour. Count.
              1. +1
                20 July 2019 18: 40
                Do not take into account the human factor. The sailor noticed the signal, reported to the shift supervisor midshipman. Recorded in the journal. Reported to the PRC in Vladivostok. There they accepted, made an entry in the railway. There is an assistant operative duty fleet for reconnaissance. Reported OD. He makes a decision on the rise of duty forces. Calls on the Stem (Aviation Headquarters), there is an assistant for ML on the PLO. Decide to raise. Call Aviation. He gives the go-ahead. The team in the 317th regiment in Kamchatka. Record in the journal, report to the regiment commander. A call to the DS house.
                And how much longer will it take?
            2. +1
              20 July 2019 18: 50
              ....... the story "So you can squeeze her lying down" http://samlib.ru/s/semenow_aleksandr_sergeewich333/lodka.shtml
              Written on real events, reliability 90%
              About the military bureaucracy.
        2. xax
          0
          18 July 2019 21: 56
          Quote: AVM
          Any launch of the missile will give out the submarines, whether it be Zour, RCC or BR.

          Only now, anti-ship missiles or ballistic missiles fly at a target of a slightly different cost than a turntable or IL
    2. 0
      18 July 2019 06: 15
      50 is the background of the sea, according to our grid.
      The answer is no.
      These are abacus and iPhone.
      1. xax
        0
        19 July 2019 03: 36
        Quote: VVAU
        The answer is no.

        You are the first "source" to claim this. Do you have any evidence of such an individual position? And then while it looks like a lie.
        1. +2
          20 July 2019 10: 33
          I am one of the sources :-)
          VUS 200, "Planning and organization of combat operations of the fleet forces"
          Last position - senior officer of the anti-submarine wrestling department of the Kamchatka flotilla of diverse forces
          If you find a flat here above the level, ask him :-) :-) :-)
          Prior to this, the navigator Be-12 and IL-38.
          Just take a word :-) :-) :-)
          1. xax
            0
            20 July 2019 16: 53
            Quote: VVAU
            Just take a word

            With respect to you and your work - but no, not ready)).
            I can say that, for example, in my field I have often come across incompetent statements by even very titled specialists (candidates, doctors, senior managers). And the academics, who are very old and divorced from life, are generally a separate sad story (in my area of ​​knowledge). I’m used to trusting, but checking.
            1. +3
              20 July 2019 18: 54
              Then you to profile sites. There, as a rule, everyone knows each other through service or through mutual friends. It’s impossible to deceive.
              Or, as I wrote earlier, read my stories. There are a large number of confirming photos. So far, none of the classmates and colleagues have been convicted of lies.
        2. val
          -1
          20 July 2019 11: 22
          Type in the search Alexander Semenov "Anti-submarine warfare. View from the SSSR"
          Find the illustrated version. "Such are our proofs!" (C) :-) :-) :-)
    3. 0
      18 July 2019 08: 07
      Quote: xax
      Let's "dry" the article to a few short quotations, while carrying 98 - 100% of its entire meaning (for ease of perception):

      ... more advanced version of waterproof glue ...
      ... underwater displacement of all in 5300 t ...
      ... combined with the water jet propulsion ...
      ... compact cutting ...
      ... X-shaped tail ...
      ... a single energy center ...

      All of the above facts:
      will allow to reduce the level of acoustic noise "Barracuda" to 45 — 50 dB in Sneak Mode

      The author concludes that all this, combined with:
      An “anti-aircraft” modification of the medium-range air combat missile MICA-IR ..., located in a protective launch capsule launched from 533-mm submarine torpedo tubes.

      is capable of:
      completely unexpected

      become:
      extremely "alarm bell" ... for the crews of anti-submarine helicopters and IL-38Н aircraft ... for tactical aviation crews ... on the distant approaches to the A2 / AD zones


      I, as a person completely untrained in modern naval combat, but trained to think a little and analyze a bit, arise mainly the 2 question:
      1) What, say, for the Il-38N, the detection range (and what defeat) of the submarine (with noise levels of 45-50 dB), the author of the article took into account, assuming that the RVBSD (hello Damantsev!) MICA-IR with a range of 10 - 20 km, is capable of destroying (it is written: become an alarm bell ") this aircraft, and does everyone really fly below the" ceiling "of this rocket - that is, 9 km?
      2) The attack of the enemy aircraft / helicopter, no doubt, will largely give out the submarine and make it vulnerable, which means we have to decide whether this is a normal exchange: nuclear-powered vessel per aircraft / helicopter?


      1. In the search mode submarines aircraft and helicopters PLO just fly below 9 km) The detection range of submarines vary greatly for different areas and weather conditions, and the submarines themselves.

      2. The attack of the aircraft is primarily a response to their attack, or the fact that they are guaranteed to find the submarine.
      Air defense for a submarine is another possibility, another tactic, it is not necessary to use it, the submarine commander should decide what is more profitable for him, destroy the PLO plane / helicopter or hide.
      The opportunity is not an obligation. But the absence of such an opportunity (air defense) makes in some situations the submarine is completely defenseless.
      1. +1
        18 July 2019 18: 10
        search mode submarines planes and helicopters PLO just fly below 9 km) ....

        When performing a search.
        With APM 100-150 m. Day-night.
        With the RSL 1500-1800. Higher throw spacing buoys increase.
        If the field is rgb, well, up to 3000 is possible.
        Unconventional methods from 3000 and above.
      2. xax
        +2
        19 July 2019 04: 09
        Quote: AVM
        The detection range of submarines varies greatly for different water areas and weather conditions, and submarines themselves.

        As I understand it, the IL-38N is quite capable of receiving information about this submarine from it within 30-60 km. While this boat is capable of defending itself from air enemies only for 10 - 20 km.

        Quote: AVM
        A plane attack is primarily a response to their attack, or that they are guaranteed to find submarines.

        Having found a submarine at a distance of, say, 30 km from itself, the Il-38N can be “overhead” in about 5 minutes. Will the submarine manage to receive target designation during this time, ascend to the launch depth and use its missiles at the IL-y ? Is it advisable to lose depth at all in a situation where in a matter of minutes an anti-submarine aircraft with appropriate weapons will appear over your head?

        Quote: AVM
        Submarine air defense is another opportunity, another tactic

        The commander of an anti-tank gun in WWII, for example, was entitled to a pistol - which could also become "another opportunity, another tactic." It's another matter how realistic this possibility is and how effective the tactics are, and the very reasonableness of the presence follows from the realism: it is one thing for the senior sergeant to carry a pistol on his belt, another thing on the submarine, where every square. decimeter counts - to introduce such a colossus into the arsenal.

        I'm just trying to understand how it all works, in (albeit approximate) numbers and tactical schemes.
        1. nks
          0
          19 July 2019 23: 07
          Quote: xax
          As I understand it, the IL-38N is quite capable of receiving information about this submarine from it within 30-60 km

          Where did you get these values, what meaning do you put into such a wide range and what kind of "given" boat?

          Quote: xax

          Will the boat manage to get target designation during this time, to emerge to the depth of launch and use its own missiles on the IL?

          Surfacing is not necessary, you can shoot and follow, so that no more appears overhead.
          1. xax
            0
            19 July 2019 23: 38
            Quote: nks
            Where did you get these values, what is the point of investing in such a wide range

            We are looking for the composition of anti-submarine equipment of this aircraft. We are looking for what is known about the characteristics of previously found anti-submarine equipment. Adjusted for the weather and something else - we get what I wrote

            Quote: nks
            what is this boat?

            See the article under discussion.

            Quote: nks
            Surfacing is not necessary, you can shoot and catch up

            Emm ... And then what will shoot?
            1. nks
              0
              20 July 2019 00: 31
              Quote: xax
              Adjusted for the weather and something else - we get what I wrote

              It is clear :) Moreover, I suddenly understood, the comrade who served on this plane is not your authority for you?)



              Quote: xax
              See the article under discussion.

              Well, in fact, the article itself is not particularly discussed here, but rather a topic, moreover an indirect one. The A3SM air defense system is not attached to the Suffren class; moreover, it is quite possible that initially it will not be in the armament of the head boat. I must say that the accented confrontation is precisely fr. The submarine with the IL-38N was invented by the author of this article. However, if such a scenario is nevertheless presented, then the option to detect a similar submarine in a submerged state, not being located almost directly above it, is only possible with successful use of RSL and so on. 60 km, but something else is important - for using PLC weapons It will have to enter the zone of destruction of the SAM of the boat, and for that it is important to more accurately determine what it was discovered and decide on the use of SAM.




              Quote: xax
              Emm ... And then what will shoot?

              And what doubts? In life, of course, it happens differently, but when developing weapons, probabilities are used to counting.
              1. xax
                0
                20 July 2019 00: 53
                Quote: nks
                I jumped, comrade, who served on this plane

                Comrade did not serve on "N", as far as I understand.

                Quote: nks
                only with the successful use of the RSL

                And from what, excuse me, distance can I get information from the RSL?

                Quote: nks
                And what doubts?

                Found, flew, destroyed - probably?
                1. nks
                  0
                  20 July 2019 00: 59
                  And in H, did the possibility of detecting submarines somehow substantially increase?
                  1. xax
                    0
                    20 July 2019 01: 01
                    Wikipedia lists a number of equipment names specific only to "H"
                    1. nks
                      0
                      20 July 2019 01: 12
                      That is, you can’t say anything about increasing the detection capabilities of submarines?
                2. nks
                  0
                  20 July 2019 01: 20
                  Quote: xax
                  And from what, excuse me, distance can I get information from the RSL?

                  You have a great discussion style. Well, well, let it be 60, but the PL determines the fact of its detection not from the moment the signal was transmitted from the RSL to the PLS. You probably want to draw some ideal scenario for the IL-38.


                  Quote: xax

                  Found, flew, destroyed - probably?

                  Probably, but not very. Or are you like a blonde in that joke about the probability of meeting a dinosaur?
                  1. xax
                    +1
                    20 July 2019 01: 43
                    Quote: nks
                    You probably want to draw some ideal scenario for IL-38

                    No. I want to understand the question. With rationale through numbers and tactical schemes.
                    You here slipped "authority" to me, and immediately disagreed with him. He writes (in response, what is the range of detection and destruction of submarine IL):
                    Quote: VVAU
                    The answer is no.

                    And you write:
                    Quote: nks
                    the option to detect a similar submarine in a submerged state, not being almost directly above it, Yes

                    Here is such a syrup, with meaningful, not reasoned, opinions of "authorities", etc. - I don't like it. What could be better than numbers and diagrams? Even if not entirely accurate. Agree. That would be a business conversation.
                    Quote: nks
                    Or are you like a blonde in that joke

                    I don’t understand how I led you to such a conclusion?
                    1. nks
                      0
                      20 July 2019 02: 11
                      I did not slip authority to you - you yourself communicated with him. I completely agreed with him, simply based on his experience (which is always limited), he is more categorical, and I am from general theories. I leave the IL-38 with a chance :) I’m actually talking about the A3SM application scenario, we consider the onset of this (submarine detection) of an unlikely event a given in our example. You are simply inattentive - I told you key things - the range of submarines-torpedoes is obviously less than the range of the use of missiles. In addition to the time of descent to the surface, a torpedo needs time to detect submarines (you can choose any of the 3 torpedoes from the IL-38 arsenal and see its performance characteristics). Those, if the submarine considered itself detected before the use of weapons against it and has at least an approximate bearing of the submarine, then it certainly won (and even if it is already at periscope depth, all the more so). If a submarine detects an attack against it, then it has time to launch a missile launcher in any case, and the chances of a torpedo detecting the submarine and hit it and countermeasures of the submarine are a separate topic that is difficult to objectively talk about (practically no data), but all -so the chances of a torpedo of 70 against the latest submarine (quite possibly the most secretive in the world)
                      1. xax
                        0
                        20 July 2019 02: 22
                        Quote: nks
                        the range of submarines-torpedoes is obviously less than the range of the use of missiles.

                        At a range of submarines torpedoes IL will be released in a matter of minutes. Is it quick to launch a missile launcher? In addition, IL has bombs. How do they work? Isn’t it more logical to use a bomb against a submarine that has surfaced to the periscope depth (to launch a missile launcher)? Or including a bomb. How it works?
                        and if it is already at periscope depth

                        And why does an atomic submarine walk along a strange A2 / AD zone at periscope depth?
                      2. xax
                        +1
                        20 July 2019 02: 35
                        In general, I still see such a picture.
                        IL, at the time of patrolling, receives instructions from the RSL about the detection of submarines. The sludge gets to the area of ​​the alleged location of the submarine in 3-6 minutes, while the submarine manages to travel less than a kilometer, which means that a torpedo dropped even near the buoy that discovered the submarine could well go into the boat and destroy it, plus the IL can somehow clarify the position of the boat after approaching the detection area (does he have such opportunities?). How quickly (at what stage?) Does the submarine realize that it has been discovered how quickly it can reach the depth of launch of the missiles, how quickly it can receive target designation and release the missiles? Will the submarine succeed in knocking down the IL, or will the IL sink the submarine?
                      3. nks
                        0
                        20 July 2019 09: 21
                        The key for the PLC is the time to prepare for the use of weapons and approach the target (it is not only determined by the distance - the plane at the moment of receiving the command can fly in the wrong direction). From the point of view of the nuclear submarines, the decision making time for the use of missiles is important (patrols and searches usually take place at low, less often average altitudes, where the noise of the IL-38 turboprop may well detect the boat’s GAS). I don’t know how it really is, but it is assumed that the count goes on for seconds. No need to float anywhere
                        https://www.naval-group.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/submarine-air-warfare-sub-launched-mica-system-against-helicopters-and-aircraft.pdf
                        "without any constraint of depth, speed and course. "
                        TSU is a rather large sector in direction and height based on the assumption that there can be nothing but goals there.
                        It is rather interesting here to update the data for the missile launcher before it reaches the surface, although the capsule should also rise in a matter of seconds and the PLC can seriously change its relative angular position only when it is very close to the launch site.

                        PLAS can be in PLS (although as I understand it, they are practically not loaded on the basis of very low efficiency), but they still need to get in, that even on PLs in the above-water position is not so simple


                        Quote: xax
                        And why does an atomic submarine walk along a strange A2 / AD zone at periscope depth?

                        A2 / AD is fashionable, but relative. This situation may be partly a mistake, or the submarine may be engaged in clarifying the surface situation, based on the fact that there is no active PLO in this area, but it accidentally falls into the usual patrol of the PLC, which still manages to detect its retractable devices. This is just one version of the scenario in which the submarine itself may be more vulnerable, but it has more opportunities to assess the situation.
                    2. +1
                      20 July 2019 19: 17
                      From experience. The range of operation of the RGB-1, or Los Token at 6 knots 1200 m with a threshold of feelings 2 and sea waves up to 3 points. The French boat is a new generation. Those that are in service now can’t take it. The short story is very crude and there are 6 of them in the fleets. From the Kipelovsky Korshuns and the Mongohtinsky District, horns and legs. Judging by this information, aircraft acoustic means will not hear it.
                      That is all I wanted to say.
          2. +2
            20 July 2019 10: 37
            Probably the distant radio line was a buoy-plane.
            He put a clearing, 50-50 km. And cuts the circles around, waiting for the buoy to work.
        2. +2
          20 July 2019 19: 04
          This is a long song.
          When the buoy is triggered, for the use of weapons it is necessary to determine the elements of the movement of the target. The real range of GOS capture of Los 800 m and then not always. Therefore, identifying elements of the torpedo is being thrown ahead of schedule. To get the elemegs (course and speed), you also need to set buoys.
          This is not a helicopter; it flies at a speed of 400 km; it spins, drops; buoys go into mode for about three minutes. They may not work, as a rule, eight out of ten work.
          In short, the plane will be sausage after detecting the submarine until the weapon is dropped for 15-20 minutes.
          1. xax
            -1
            20 July 2019 19: 06
            Quote: VVAU
            In short, the plane will be sausage after detecting the pl until the weapon is dropped for 15-20 minutes

            This is already clear. Thank.
            Do you think the air defense of the boat will work faster?
            1. +1
              20 July 2019 19: 56
              Air defense will work faster. What prevents Virginia from detecting tracking, surfacing in a surface stalled course. Pull the Stinger onto the deck and shy on the plane.
              There is nothing to destroy it in the surface. Cannons, NAR and no bombs.
              A rocket will hit the engine, the plane will land on the water. The Americans will take the crew prisoner and will, like the Germans in the "Secret Fairway", pump their blood out of them. :-)
              1. xax
                0
                21 July 2019 05: 54
                Quote: VVAU
                detecting tracking

                What does this mean? Are buoys passive?
                Quote: VVAU
                no bombs

                But Wikipedia says that there is)
                1. +1
                  21 July 2019 11: 44
                  .
                  http://forums.airbase.ru/2007/07/t56609--borej-i-bulava-problemy-i-ikh-reshenie.html
                2. +2
                  21 July 2019 12: 14
                    Let's go first. When conducting reconnaissance, a foreign boat regularly floats to the periscope position. Taking pictures of our shooting, conducting reconnaissance, communication sessions. She is aggressive in obtaining information. Each aircraft has its own set of emissions. The Il-38 has a radar, a radio altimeter, a Doppler meter, and an identification system. The crew conducts radio communications, especially intensively in the search area. The boat records all this. The direction finding, the laying of the aircraft, the radio intelligence officer translates and decodes the slang used when setting the pair between the crews of the aircraft. If the placement of buoys has begun, they give control signals when landing. If triggered by the noise of the boat, they transmit constantly. The marker buoy works constantly. For a boat, this is a sign of the beginning of a search. PLAB bombs are in the range of weapons. But I don't remember being hung up. There are a lot of things and mines and UAN and special items. There is a scheduled alarm table. It is adjusted every week. There it is written what anyone has. I meant the aircraft of the duty forces, it is in the search option. That is, some buoys. There is a support aircraft, it is in search and strike. Buoys, torpedoes or APR. I talked about the fastest on the rise, since we discussed the reaction to the transfer of the boat to the WBD. On duty 30 minutes. Pod.dezh - one thirty. Regiment on alarm 2.20. Conclusion from under the blow 1.50. Well, they throw in 10 minutes for the winter, 5 minutes for the night. And the most frequently suspended bomb is the practical P-50-75. On every flight shift. :-)
                  1. val
                    0
                    22 July 2019 11: 53
                    Pulled off from Semenov.

                  2. xax
                    +1
                    22 July 2019 22: 02
                    And with something like APR-3ME, we don’t work?
                    How do she give target designation at her range?
                    1. +1
                      23 July 2019 06: 31
                      If I understand the question correctly.
                      The navigator's task is to "put" the weapon at a distance from the target commensurate with the range of the seeker. In the picture, the use of two At-1 series, a method was developed in the 33rd center in Nikolaev in order to somehow increase the probability.
                      Make D GOS three km and there are no questions. Throw in the place of a working buoy. But, unfortunately, the boats are all less noisy. I’m not talking about GPA.
                      1. xax
                        +1
                        23 July 2019 06: 35
                        Quote: VVAU
                        The task of the navigator to "put" the weapon at a distance from the target commensurate with the range of the seeker

                        And why then is the missile part needed for this munition?
                      2. +1
                        23 July 2019 09: 44
                          If my opinion. Savings, silver torpedo batteries are very expensive. For a long time, a teacher at the school said that the cost of At-1 is commensurate with the cost of a 4-storey two-entrance building. The rocket is cheaper. The boat has a shorter reaction time to an attack. The probability of hitting is greater, the speed is greater. Well, show-off :-) myzh on rockets are the first in the world :-) And competition for the state order. A feature of our defense industry is a large nomenkl. weapons.

                        Well, about the weapon you need to Mine-Klimov. He is lower, Physicist.

                        And ktozh so minus you?
                      3. xax
                        0
                        25 July 2019 00: 09
                        Thanks for answers!
                        Everything has become a little clearer and much more interesting.
                        Be sure to honor your work.
                        Although I do not agree with the helplessness in this situation of anti-submarine aviation, I see that not all factors are considered)
                      4. +2
                        23 July 2019 06: 45
                        To the lined shaft picture. From the story.

                        "Figure for clarification. On the RSL barrier, triggering. I need to determine the EDC (Elements of Target Movement). I put a half-ring, determine the course and speed. I calculate the attack time and where the boat will be at this moment. From the RSL, I calculate the ECP. Variants She reduced the stroke - A. Goes as before -B. Changed course-B. In the figure, the target engagement area of ​​the torpedo seeker is shaded. Here it is commensurate with the range of the buoy. 1500 m. Actually 300-350. I was a little mistaken and I do not cover the target with the torpedo response area It is clear that it moves at high speed, when searching in a spiral and seems to increase the area of ​​view. But the boat also does not stand still. As an option, it was proposed to throw two AT-1m. Figure on the right. This is for conditions of uniform movement of the boat without the use of countermeasures. And if a submarine maneuvers and uses a simulator, in this case, the torpedo can no longer be thrown, but the silver from the torpedo can be given to the crew.
  24. 0
    18 July 2019 03: 14
    "Glue tenacity" is five!
    I can't even remember any technical education at all, in the process of obtaining which the word "adhesion" passed the student's brain
    1. val
      0
      22 July 2019 11: 56
      ))) I am such a person. I learned the word addesia at the age of 30 after reading Sanin "Obsessed". About icing on ships. Well, there it meant the degree of adhesion of the developed enamel to ice.
  25. +1
    18 July 2019 07: 33
    We have the President-S system against such missiles.
    https://rg.ru/2014/10/27/presidents-site.html
    1. +1
      18 July 2019 07: 56
      This is true. But its cost :-) And at what price it will cost to install it on a dozen anti-submarine aircraft, especially since they are not a threat to this boat.
      Well, the mass and the President must be included in the Novel. Improvements again?
    2. +1
      18 July 2019 08: 01
      Quote: riwas
      The submarine "Suffren" challenges the naval aviation of the Russian Navy. The treacherous hunter with air defense capabilities


      This is only the first step. Then put the missiles with ARLGSN. And for low-speed targets, such as PLO helicopters, you can work with rockets controlled by fiber optic cable, these are not fooling at all.
      1. nks
        +1
        18 July 2019 10: 43
        Quote: AVM
        Then put the missiles with ARLGSN

        So already, count :) MICA in two versions exists as IKGSN, and with ARLGSN. Although it’s exactly the IC that appears in the presentation materials, it is quite possible to launch the variant with ARLGSN, but most likely, the EKGSN is simply more effective in this case - it has a larger viewing sector (which is important together with the errors of the primary DD) and the selection of the target against the sea ...
        1. 0
          21 July 2019 12: 06
          Quote: nks
          with ARLGSN, but most likely IKGSN in this case is simply more effective - it has a larger review sector (which is important, coupled with the errors of the primary DD)

          Yeah
          having opened the IR GOS by ORDER more than the "needle" ARLGSN UR V-V
        2. 0
          22 July 2019 20: 24
          Quote: nks
          Quote: AVM
          Then put the missiles with ARLGSN

          So already, count :) MICA in two versions exists as IKGSN, and with ARLGSN. Although it’s exactly the IC that appears in the presentation materials, it is quite possible to launch the variant with ARLGSN, but most likely, the EKGSN is simply more effective in this case - it has a larger viewing sector (which is important together with the errors of the primary DD) and the selection of the target against the sea ...


          Now the use of the GOS is picking up the trend at the same time as the radar, infrared and TV, at least for ATGM and missiles VZ, maybe, and it will come to V-V rockets. Or, alternatively, launching two rockets at once, one with IC, the other with ARLGSN, which exchange data with each other, complementing each other’s capabilities.
          1. nks
            0
            22 July 2019 21: 47
            Quote: AVM
            the use of GOS simultaneously with radar, infrared

            Can you give an example?

            Quote: AVM
            launch of two missiles at once, one with IR, the other with ARLGSN

            Yes, but it’s a tactic of application.

            Quote: AVM
            which exchange data with each other, complementing each other's capabilities.


            they do not exchange data with each other. They can exchange with a carrier (launch platform), which, by processing data from various sources (data fusion), can give corrections back to the UR, but the reverse data-link (UR-> medium) is now much less common than the direct one.
      2. +1
        18 July 2019 11: 39
        Preferably "Shoot and forget".
        On the wire you need to emerge and accompany to hit.
        1. 0
          22 July 2019 20: 22
          Quote: VVAU
          Preferably "Shoot and forget".
          On the wire you need to emerge and accompany to hit.


          Well, when there are options, it allows you to use the most effective, depending on the tactical situation.
  26. 0
    18 July 2019 08: 13
    The opinion of many commentators will radically change after the creation of an air defense system for submarines will be announced by Almaz-Antey or Malachite / Rubin.
    1. 0
      21 July 2019 12: 04
      Quote: AVM
      or "Malachite" /

      see "Malachite"

      IMHO - "or cry or laugh"
  27. +1
    18 July 2019 09: 03
    The French have launched a new nuclear submarine, so what? Is it a great achievement? Now, if Ukraine launches a submarine of the type "M" (Baby) during the Great Patriotic War, this will be a great achievement.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +1
      19 July 2019 11: 14
      Well, what is a snitch? :-) Has it provoked an alleged violation?
      Satisfied?
      "Trolling, provocation: Comedian-descender :-) Has Losharikov buried long ago?" in the article The submarine "Suffren" challenges the naval aviation of the Russian Navy. A cunning hunter with possibilities ....
  28. 0
    18 July 2019 15: 50
    Salvation from such an insidious tactic of using the A3SM underwater-based defensive complex can only be flights at altitudes greater than 10 km, outside the high-altitude ceiling of the MICA family of missiles in the “anti-aircraft” version. Unfortunately, in the conditions of high-intensity combat operations on the sea / ocean theater, it is unlikely to envisage the above points, as well as effectively suppress the underwater communication channels through which target designation can be transmitted to the operators of the A3SM complex.

    Could you explain - through what submarine communications will the submarine receive operational target designation.
  29. +1
    18 July 2019 16: 10
    Quote: toha124
    Are you the author of "Non-Tradition"?

    This is so.
    Sometimes you have to answer questions yourself, as there is confusion :-)
    1. val
      +1
      18 July 2019 18: 55
      Read. You would find a writer, somehow ennoble the above. There is a lot of information, it is interesting to read, but not processed, a raw story.
      Sorry :-)
  30. 0
    18 July 2019 23: 30
    It is not necessary to deal with the condemnation of the French, but to draw conclusions how to protect the sea (and not only) aviation, how to effectively detect and destroy such boats (which inevitably unmask themselves by similar missile launch) and how to create domestic boats with superior capabilities than the French.
  31. +1
    20 July 2019 15: 59
    a bit of reality
    from one dock:



    and related article:
    http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=764&p=27#p1152823
    1. nks
      +1
      20 July 2019 19: 06
      There is a bit of commonplace, black humor and mistakes winked
      PS: The review is really interesting. Mina's articles, for all its odiousness and often empty meaningfulness, are almost always interesting to read.
      1. val
        0
        20 July 2019 19: 29
        This is so.
        It is a pity that Klimov’s information was deleted because of the fool Karshiev.
        1. +1
          20 July 2019 20: 02
          Yes, they have already buried a moron, but there is a new moder, generally without a head. They gave horns to a vigorous cow :-)
      2. 0
        21 July 2019 12: 01
        Quote: nks
        Mina's articles, for all his odiousness

        clarify with the facts and PRUFAMI able?
        Quote: nks
        often empty significance

        what to write and what not to write - I decide myself (and I HAVE RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT)
        and "Soviets" from divanoFFF don't interest me from the word at all
        especially on "regime" issues
        1. nks
          0
          21 July 2019 12: 14
          And sorry, Maxim - is that you ?! Sorry, I didn't recognize it in the makeup. :) I don't see any point in wasting time digging up links, but you often write that "I'll tell you and show everything soon", and then simply don't answer direct questions. Write, of course. I say that it is interesting to read in any case, the level is an order of magnitude higher than most of what, for example, is published on this site. And thanks for your articles.
          1. -1
            21 July 2019 12: 30
            nks (Alexey) Today, 12:14 pm I don’t see any point in wasting time digging links, but you often write that “I’ll tell and show everything soon”, and then you simply don’t answer direct questions.
            xhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
            those. direct my question, is there a direct YOUR place .... (how could it be softer?)
        2. nks
          -1
          21 July 2019 12: 19
          And about minor errors: there is no limit in the 50m well start A3SM-UV
          and, by the way, in the MICA for the A3SM-UV they did not change the ARGSN to the IR-GOS - this air-blast missile system exists in two versions with these GOS, then they made the VL-MICA missiles from it (I understand the jump, only the software was changed there) also with two GOS, and then VL-MICA adapted for A3SM-UV (also visible only software)
          1. 0
            21 July 2019 12: 34
            nks (Alexey) Today, 12: 19 And ​​about minor errors: there is no limitation on 50, but starting A3SM-UV
            and, by the way, in MICA for A3SM-UV did not change ARGSN to IR-GOS - this URVV exists in two versions with these GOS,
            xhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
            on the depth of the launch - nothing that there is an "exoset" container?
            and the first submarine missiles appeared on the Agostas!
            well, no one "changed" the GOS - for with the same accuracy the control center which the French have on the "needle" of the ARGSN is simply out of the question and cannot be
            1. nks
              +1
              21 July 2019 12: 43
              Quote: Fizik M
              on the depth of the launch - nothing that there is an "exoset" container?

              So he also does not have this restriction.


              Quote: Fizik M
              well, nobody "changed" the GOS

              so this is you writing:
              "A feature of the A3SM Underwater Vehicle .... The homing head of the MICA missiles with active radar has also been replaced with a matrix infrared"

              I'm just saying that the GOS was not changed, but simply chose the version (which was already there) with the IK-GOS
              1. 0
                21 July 2019 12: 49
                Quote: nks
                I'm just saying that the GOS was not changed, but simply chose the version (which was already there) with the IK-GOS

                option with ARLGSN Miki appeared BEFORE
                R & D on missile defense submarines from the French were in full swing back in 90x, SIMULTANEOUSLY with the matrix IC GOS

                So he also does not have this restriction.

                and the exoset container itself is "about this" in the know? ;)
                1. nks
                  0
                  21 July 2019 12: 57
                  It doesn’t change anything :) Seriously, do you think that in the 90s MATRA made the IR-GSN version only so that after 20+ years DCNS introduced the A3SM-UV demonstrator? A single URVV in two versions with different GOS was planned in the 80s as a rafal weapon system.
                  1. -1
                    21 July 2019 15: 40
                    Quote: nks
                    A single URVV in two versions with different GOS was planned in 80x as a rafal weapon system.

                    work with ARGS went ahead of schedule
                    Quote: nks
                    that through 20 + years DCNS introduced the demonstrator A3SM-UV

                    this "demonstrator" fired back from the submarine in the 90s
                    (there will be no proofs)
                    1. nks
                      0
                      21 July 2019 19: 32
                      I did not doubt it :)
                      1. 0
                        22 July 2019 17: 02
                        Quote: nks
                        I did not doubt it :)

                        Monsieur, YOUR cheap "opinion" floats too shallow
                        mine - see 20 July 2019 15: 59
                        at that document level, the topic never came up
                2. nks
                  0
                  21 July 2019 14: 59
                  Quote: Fizik M
                  and the exoset container itself is "about this" in the know? ;)

                  The container is not supposed to laughing And the manufacturer claims that it does not. I have no reason not to believe him, because I do not see significant technical problems here to introduce such a restriction. Can you name those? Where did you get 50m from?
                  1. -1
                    21 July 2019 15: 43
                    Quote: nks
                    laughing And the manufacturer claims to not have. I have no reason not to believe him

                    questions of theology don't interest me
                    so what for "to believe" - ​​to "God Kuza"

                    and what is the difference between missiles that come out from 100-150 m from those that come out "less than 50", I know not only as a developer (including personally knowing well those who made them), but also an operator (both of them - " lived "on a torpedo, both of them)
                    so what about the "great depth" (ALSO) of the "hrantetsuz container" - this is to the "god Kuza"
                    1. nks
                      0
                      21 July 2019 19: 35
                      You see, how quickly we got to your empty state meaningfully - I don’t need to look for proofs either. :) I’m referring to the developer’s data, and you suggest me to believe your experience, which has nothing to do with this weapon system. Classic credo ad absurdum
                      1. 0
                        22 July 2019 17: 05
                        Quote: nks
                        I don’t need to look for proofs either. :) I

                        Monsieur, YOU are just a cheap tro-lo-lo
                        Quote: nks
                        I refer to the developer data of

                        yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
                        lol
                        and cry tears from tenderness (and PITCHING FOR YOU laughing )
                        Quote: nks
                        You suggest me to believe your experience, which has nothing to do with this weapon system

                        Monsieur, then what YOU deign to TAKE NONSENSE is the material of the COURSE COURSE 3 course (PLO NK and PL)
                        PM
                        so go to the divan, YOU there have already been waiting for ducks, and rub them
                      2. nks
                        0
                        22 July 2019 21: 48
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        this is the material of the CURSOR 3-year student (PLO NK and PL)

                        So this sign from the student? I'm just clarifying ..
                      3. 0
                        23 July 2019 11: 59
                        Quote: nks
                        So this sign from the student? I'm just clarifying ..

                        no, of course
                        2014 document, of course open (but not public for the most part)
                        and the course student (discipline "Anti-submarine missiles") is the calculation of the PLR ​​engine and its trajectory - 3rd course of the VVMU
                      4. nks
                        0
                        23 July 2019 21: 11
                        Well, did you see the Exocet capsule nozzle / locking element? There, the only thing that can be estimated from the outside is what pressure the locking membrane is designed for at the nozzle exit (although I doubt it can be done by eye if it is not explicitly written there)
                      5. 0
                        26 July 2019 19: 57
                        Quote: nks
                        Well, did you see the Exocet capsule nozzle / locking element? There is only one thing that can be appreciated from the outside,

                        Ento HOW?!?! No.
                        But the SIZES of the engine, and the requirements for strength (and weight !!!) of the capsule - are quite
                        by the way google the "price tag" of the capsule for the "ax" - it will be very impressive;)
                      6. nks
                        0
                        26 July 2019 23: 23
                        And how do you evaluate the size of the engine (maybe the fuel supply still?)? In the end, how much was measured for VSM? Similarly with the mass (!!!), well, strength still did not go far - sometimes you can see thin metal, but just VSM looks designed for several tens of atmospheres (including on exhibition samples in the context)
                        Quote: Fizik M
                        by the way google the "price tag" of the capsule for the "ax" - it will be very impressive;)

                        What for? Actually, the difference between the VSM capsule and the Harpoon and very simple Caliber capsule is that it is essentially a torpedo container with solid propellant rocket propeller and it also seems to be worth a lot.
                      7. The comment was deleted.
  32. -1
    20 July 2019 22: 39
    Quote: Pedrodepackes
    it was impossible to throw people into battle without preparation, especially men over 40,


    So in the Civil they were already more than 20, what more training do they need? Mine managed in the first and second and reached the house. Lucky of course, but not everyone and not very much, got back to the Civil.
  33. 0
    28 July 2019 15: 30
    So the boats are already dangerous for aircraft ... a war of armor and shell.

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