Heavy BTR: an extremely dubious idea

434

About the uselessness of heavy armored personnel carriers


When discussing heavy armored personnel carriers, such as the Israeli Azkharit or the Timer, the argument is usually developed in the plane of their usefulness. Moreover, it develops in a style that is quite aggressive towards opponents. I will come from the other side and I will develop the argument in the opposite direction, in the plane of their uselessness.

Heavy BTR: an extremely dubious idea

Israeli "Timer". What an awkward car: huge and tall, with weak arms and poor visibility. A large "dead zone" around it, not viewed from the instruments and not fired from weapons. The corridor for the landing in the stern asks that a cumulative grenade be thrown into it. Notice that, although Israeli soldiers feel safe, they still put their superbronet into something like a trench.



So, a few theses.

The first. As far as I can see from the publications and comments, supporters of TBTR captivate the security of the machine, which justifies all other accessories, in particular, great weight. Like, TBTR can drive under the dense fire of the enemy. But it is impossible not to ask a simple question: if the enemy’s fire is so strong and powerful, then what is there for the infantry to do?

The experience of the war in fact quite clearly shows that for successful infantry operations, the enemy must be destroyed, or at least suppressed. If not all and everyone, then, at a minimum, its main firing points and its heavy armament. As part of the Soviet tactics, this task was carried out by artillery preparation. When it was carried out qualitatively, then the infantry was left with a smaller part of the combat mission, executable for it.

In my opinion, the popularity of the TBTR arises in the context of declining artillery, when they are trying to replace with a heavy machine the obviously insufficient or completely missing artillery preparation. For Israel, with its specific theater of operations, this circumstance is explained by the fact that battles are fought in densely populated areas in which artillery cannot be used - there are non-combatants. Therefore, the Israelis, as a rule, carry out pinpoint operations to storm the single house in which the militants have settled. You must drive up to the house under fire, including an RPG and an ATGM, in order to carry out a successful attack. These unique conditions create the need for TBTR, determining, in particular, their design.


"Timer" is driving from Gaza. It is not easy to find a photo in which this TBTR was captured not in the range, but in combat conditions


Thus, if we do not fight according to the Israeli method, in the absence of cities with a very high population density and development, as well as in the absence of non-combatants in the war zone, then instead of TBTR we need good artillery, and with the direct support of infantry in the same city battle will cope and Tanks.

The second. Substituting under the fire of the enemy and counting that the forehead and sides of the TBTR will withstand it, from a tactical point of view means giving initiative to the enemy. Motorized infantry with TBTR will prefer the same style of warfare: moving forward, on enemy defenses, shooting from onboard weapons so that the infantry, upon reaching the fortifications, can go out and clear them. This concept implicitly relies on the fact that the enemy will be weak and has little initiative, will be afraid of steel boxes, and will prefer to step back when meeting with them. In case he decides to shoot, the infantry will be protected by tank armor.

This is all wonderful, until the enemy has got angry, decisive and inventive. Without much difficulty, you can develop tactics against TBTR. For example, anti-tankers with an RPG or ATGM, hiding in disguised trenches and shelters, and do not open fire until the armored vehicles are near, on the 70-80 meters, better board or stern to them. Then they hit from close range, when a miss is unlikely and there is an opportunity to aim at the vulnerable spots that any armored vehicles have. There may be an addition to this tactic - the rapid convergence and the use of overhead charges for the final destruction of the damaged armored vehicles. Guided land mines can be used to kill the caterpillar and immobilize the machine.


German magnetic anti-mine mine Hafthohlladung (HHL 3). In addition to this design can be, for example, mine-velcro.


Any kind of radar, night vision devices, infrared cameras or thermal imagers somewhat increase the capabilities of the TBTR, but they are unlikely to help you see the hidden trench (which may have a thermal shield), cracks, or even a hole in an underground tunnel. Especially in heavy rain, fog or snow. Because the enemy can wait and hit for sure.

Or the reception of a tactical drape, when the enemy, when the TBTR is approaching its positions, represents a hasty retreat, and when the motorized infantry got out and their boxes for trophies and prisoners, the fired and disguised firing points strike them. Against military tricks, thick armor is not a particularly good helper.

In other words, the motorized infantry planted in TBTR is very limited in the variety of tactics used, which makes their actions very well predictable. An opponent without armor can diversify his tactics and catch TBTR on an unexpected course. Giving back the initiative to the enemy, even at the level of a tactical concept, is a very bad decision. For this reason, I am generally against any "well-protected" armored cars for infantry. They accustom the infantry to passivity and hope that it will survive the armor.

Third. Since the TBTR, in contrast to the BMP-1 and its later branches, does not provide for the possibility of firing a landing force from under the armor, it turns out that a considerable part of the battle the motorized infantry will passively, as passengers. When they say that TBTR can support tanks on the battlefield, this fact is usually forgotten. Support can be provided by the TBTR itself, with its guns and machine guns, but not with infantry, which is deprived of this opportunity. The role of the infantry on the battlefield comes down, essentially, to a trophy team; when the enemy fled without accepting a battle with armored vehicles, the motorized infantry would pick up what the enemy had abandoned while fleeing. If so, if the infantry is only involved in the head-up analysis, when all the work has already been done by the tanks and crews of the TBTR, then why is it needed there at all? Trophy team can be sent later.

Does the battle lead one armored?


Theoretically, you can consider the tactical concept, when the battle is one armored vehicles: tanks and tank-shaped armored vehicles with automatic guns and speed guns. But then for this purpose T-15 with the module "Boomerang-BM" or AU-220М is best suited from all the creativity of domestic designers. Landing from this machine to remove, and the vacated space to use for additional ammunition.


The T-15 can be quite good without an assault force inside, but with increased ammunition.


Here are these three circumstances: replacing the enemy’s suppression with artillery preparation with armor protection against him, giving the initiative back to the enemy at the level of the tactical concept, as well as the passive nature of the motorized infantry actions, actually at the level of the trophy team, is enough to consider the idea of ​​TBTR extremely doubtful.

And now you can debate.
434 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +4
    11 July 2019 04: 52
    Without air cover, any box is a potential scrap! Burnt.
    1. +8
      11 July 2019 08: 50
      Quote: Theodore
      Without air cover

      8)))
      Do not overestimate this "air cover" of yours. Infantry is much more important to armored vehicles. Vaughn, in Zemo Kviti "air cover" was present, but it turned out to be useless when the Wise and Far-Seeing Commanders decided to drive through the settlement with armored infantry
      1. +7
        11 July 2019 11: 12
        The tactics of using heavy armored personnel carriers should consist precisely in the rapid delivery of infantry, under enemy fire, directly to the line of contact, where its support (infantry) is needed, i.e. dismounting and deployment. Dismounting is performed directly with the enemy positions, 10-30 meters, if possible in the dead points of the enemy defense. Tactics are significantly different from the Soviet, when the infantry dismounted to the line of defense of the enemy, followed by armor, forcing the defense engineering structures (barbed wire, barricades, etc.). TBTR is a tool not comparable with the old BTR. Something in between BTR and BMP.
        Infantry is much more important to armored vehicles. Vaughn, in Zemo Kviti "air cover" was present, but it turned out to be useless when the Wise and Far-Seeing Commanders decided to drive through the settlement with armored infantry

        Not quite understood what you are talking about and what you mean. An example of the use of heavy BTR is not, as I understand it.
        1. +2
          11 July 2019 11: 23
          Quote: 17085
          Dismounting is performed directly with the positions of the enemy, 10-30 meters

          I'm afraid the enemy will not allow this.

          Quote: 17085
          Not quite understood what you are talking about and what you mean.

          What the system works, not its separate component. And not paramount.

          For armored vehicles the main help is the infantry. And not aviation, artillery, and more.

          Quote: 17085
          An example of the use of heavy BTR is not, as I understand it.

          Why ... If TBRT were there, they would also be burned.
          The main thing that had to be done there was to hurry the infantry. And even better, do not shove through the town, and go around it, as a result, in fact, did
          1. -1
            11 July 2019 13: 01
            Quote: Spade
            For armored vehicles, infantry is the main tool.

            Now KAZ / SAZ.
            1. +3
              12 July 2019 08: 47
              Quote: Operator
              Now KAZ / SAZ.

              They can be easily reloaded.
              1. -2
                12 July 2019 10: 57
                The armor penetration of the only RPG "Hook" with a salvo firing of two grenades is 600 mm, while the equivalent thickness of the MBT armor is 900 mm or more. Such a low penetration rate of the RPG "Hook" is due to the limit of its weight for the possibility of manual transportation on the battlefield.

                The salvo firing of anti-tank guided missiles from one machine with the correct time delay between launches of the first and second missiles is theoretically possible, but practically not used due to the shortage of expensive anti-tank guided missiles.

                Plus, SAZ / KAZ has a large modernization potential to reduce the reaction time from 0,1 to 0,01 seconds, after which the ATGM will be knocked off. And it is impossible to shorten the time interval between the launches of anti-tank guided missiles, since then the fragments of the first rocket will knock down the second, third, etc.
                1. +1
                  12 July 2019 11: 14
                  KAZ T-15 in the most ideal case can stop 10 missiles.
                  1. 0
                    12 July 2019 11: 19
                    Besides KAZ "Afganit" there is KAZ "Arena". But since we are talking about the future, other types of KAZ with a large supply of counter-ammunition are quite possible.
                    http://www.dogswar.ru/oryjeinaia-ekzotika/bronetehnika/6432-perspektivnyi-tank-t.html
                    1. +1
                      12 July 2019 11: 27
                      Quote: Operator
                      In addition to KAZ "Afganit" there is KAZ "Arena"

                      Ideally, 26 stopped missiles.
                      1. -3
                        12 July 2019 11: 34
                        This means that in a tank company there will be 260 counter-ammunition - multiple times more than the ATGM can be concentrated on the front of its attack.
                      2. +1
                        12 July 2019 12: 17
                        Quote: Operator
                        multiple times more than the ATGM can be concentrated on the front of its attack.

                        Why only ATGMs?
                        There is also an infantry RPG, "under-ATGM" of the "Predator" type. There are anti-aircraft mines, there are "antimaterial" rifles and machine guns.

                        In addition, do not forget that by the time the density of the AT fire reaches its maximum, the capabilities of the KAZ / KOEP will be minimal. In the best case, "anti-missile" ammunition will be greatly wasted. In the worst case, everything "attached" from the composition of the means of protection, including the dynamic blocks, will be severely damaged by the fire of automatic cannons and large-caliber machine guns, when passing through the lines of artillery barrage, by missile debris after their destruction by KAZ, and so on.
                      3. -1
                        12 July 2019 12: 33
                        RPG, penetrating 1000 mm of homogeneous steel armor, there is only one - "Cranberry" and it is in service with the Russian Army. In this case, the range of a direct shot from the "Cranberry" is equal to 200 meters - ie. all grenade launchers will be mowed down by tank machine-gun shots, as well as infantrymen advancing on foot behind the tanks with small arms fire and the same grenade launchers.

                        Anti-riot mines are not placed on the battlefield; large-caliber machine guns against SAZ / KAZ, covered with ceramic (radar) and steel armor (cells of counter-ammunition), are useless; carriers of automatic guns (infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers) are the primary target for tanks; the artillery of the attackers acts against the artillery of the defenders, and in greater numbers.
                      4. +4
                        12 July 2019 12: 52
                        Quote: Operator
                        RPG penetrating 1000 mm homogeneous steel armor

                        Why punch her? Enough to immobilize. And then it is easy to destroy. Though you make a fire under the bottom ... there is no infantry ...

                        Quote: Operator
                        those. all grenade throwers will be mown shots from tank machine guns

                        How? They will be forced to stand up to their full height?

                        Quote: Operator
                        Anti-riot mines are not placed on the battlefield.

                        ?
                        And what prevents to do this?

                        Quote: Operator
                        large-caliber machine guns against SAZ / KAZ covered with ceramic (radar) and steel armor (anti-ammunition cells) are useless

                        Also how helpful. Just look at any modern tank.

                        Quote: Operator
                        carriers of automatic guns (infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers) are the primary goal for tanks

                        However, they will shoot. And get-too.

                        Quote: Operator
                        the artillery of the attackers acts against the artillery, and moreover.

                        Artillery cannot guarantee the absence of enemy artillery fire.
                      5. -6
                        12 July 2019 13: 20
                        How can you immobilize a tank from a grenade launcher without breaking through the armor - do not offer to hit the caterpillar / rink, since the 5-cm hole will not lead to their failure.

                        Automatic fire from machine guns of tanks and from small arms of the infantry advancing behind them at a distance of a grenade shot from a "Cranberry" (200 meters) will be conducted to suppress.

                        The installation of opposing mines on the battlefield is hampered by their profile protruding above the ground - during artillery preparation, such mines will be demolished by shrapnel and a shock wave.

                        If you look at the "Merkava" and "Abrams", you can see the ceramic plates on the radar station and the steel armored boxes of the SAZ "Trophy" counter-ammunition.

                        To disable an infantry fighting vehicle located in a tank trench, an attacking tank just needs to use a high-explosive fragmentation projectile, and to disable the attachments of the attacking tank, the BMP bag must be fired with an armor-piercing projectile, which is more difficult to do.

                        If the attacking side has three times more artillery, then this ensures the suppression of the defenders' artillery even before the tanks reach the line of attack.
                      6. +4
                        12 July 2019 13: 54
                        Quote: Operator
                        Do not offer to hit the track / roller, as 5-cm hole will not lead to their failure.

                        To your regret, this is exactly how they immobilized. And more than once. "Fly", in fact, is intended for this.

                        Quote: Operator
                        and from small arms of the advancing infantry

                        Which one She is not.

                        Quote: Operator
                        The installation of opposing mines on the battlefield is hampered by their profile protruding above the ground - during artillery preparation, such mines will be demolished by shrapnel and a shock wave.

                        Give it up. Within a few seconds you yourself will "develop" a completely working shelter for such a mine. Nothing complicated. Any hummock, a pit and a dug sector in it.

                        Quote: Operator
                        If you look at the "Merkava" and "Abrams", you can see the ceramic plates on the radar station and the steel armored boxes of the SAZ "Trophy" counter-ammunition.

                        I have never heard of radio transparent armor. I'm afraid there is no such.

                        Quote: Operator
                        To disable an infantry fighting vehicle located in a tank trench, it is enough for an attacking tank to use a high-explosive fragmentation projectile,

                        This is not enough. Especially when normally organized in engineering defense
                      7. -4
                        12 July 2019 14: 23
                        The link can be immobilized tank when hit cumulative ammunition in the caterpillar or roller?

                        Someone in the comments may not have dismounted motorized infantry for tanks, and I always have laughing

                        Prikopany sensor airborne mines demolished fragments / shock wave in the process of artillery preparation is even easier than the mine itself.

                        Radiolucent armor - ceramic (boron carbide, aluminum oxide, silicon carbide).

                        Against a normally organized engineering defense, there are reconnaissance UAVs from mini to micro.

                        And the main thing is statistics: now 90% of the losses of armored vehicles are from portable ATGMs and manual RPGs, neutralize these light anti-tank weapons with SAZ / KAZ and the losses of armored vehicles (from the remaining heavy weapons and technical equipment) will immediately decrease by a factor of ten.
                      8. +1
                        12 July 2019 22: 30
                        Quote: Operator
                        The link can be immobilized tank when hit cumulative ammunition in the caterpillar or roller?

                        You do not forget that in addition to the jet of godfather there are also a few kg of TNT. Read how many grams of TNT are needed to destroy a rail or telegraph pole for example. The usual godfather has them behind the funnel :)
                      9. -1
                        12 July 2019 23: 27
                        TNT is tightly attached to the rail and destroys it due to the blasting (crushing) action of explosives.

                        The cumulative charge around them produces the high-explosive effect of the explosive - it forms an air shock wave that cannot damage the metal parts of the tank.
                      10. +1
                        12 July 2019 23: 38
                        Quote: Operator
                        The cumulative charge around them produces the high-explosive effect of the explosive - it forms an air shock wave that cannot damage the metal parts of the tank.

                        Well you give! :) As for the "kg", I slightly generalized, in the RPG-7 there is a maximum of 730 g of okfol, but for heavy ATGMs we are talking about kilograms and now they just break through the armor of the armored personnel carrier by blasting. Apart from the jet itself.

                        Yes, and 730 grams of RPG-7 are not tied to the caterpillar, they themselves stick at a speed of 200-300 meters per second. Believe me, this is no worse than fastening with tape :)
                      11. -4
                        13 July 2019 10: 51
                        Photo armor BTR / BMP / MBT, broken by an external explosion of a cumulative charge, in the studio.

                        The shaped charge under the action of the head sensor explodes at a distance of tens of centimeters from the barrier to form the correct shaped charge jet, after which only gases from the explosive detonation can "stick" to the barrier laughing
                      12. 0
                        13 July 2019 11: 14
                        Well, there you are something about the explosive action of explosives. They told you an example of the action of a 30 mm high-explosive projectile on bullet-proof armor.
                        https://fakty.ua/photos/article/28/81/288126_fb_125741.jpg
                        and the mass of the centuries in it is 50 g., how do you like it?
                      13. 0
                        13 July 2019 11: 54
                        This is a photo of the kinetic action of a 30-mm armor-piercing artillery shell with a 50-gram explosive charge on the landing of a Ukrainian vessel with anti-bullet reservation

                      14. 0
                        13 July 2019 15: 40
                        Some shitty reservation however.
                      15. 0
                        17 July 2019 01: 19
                        Well, of course, "guidno-European" in the best traditions of the Khokhlyatsky cut.
                      16. The comment was deleted.
                      17. +2
                        17 July 2019 01: 17
                        The ammunition load of the AK-630 and AK-306 gun mounts includes two types of shots:
                        HE-84 high-explosive incendiary shell weighing 0,39 kg, explosive weight 48,5 g, fuse A-498K. Modification of the projectile OF-84 is designated OFZ.
                        The fragmentation tracer shell OR-84 weighing 0,39 kg, the weight of the explosive 11,7 g, no fuse. Cartridge weight 832 ... 834 g, cartridge length up to 293 mm. The weight of the sleeve is about 300 g. Gunpowder grades 6 / 7FL.
                        https://militarypribor.ru/products/vmf уж производителю наверное надо верить?
                        Where did you fall from with your armor-piercing-kinetic?
                      18. 0
                        17 July 2019 10: 03
                        Are you saying that the Ukrainian "armor" is pierced by a high-explosive / tracer shell? In principle, I don't mind.

                        On the other hand, the range of ammunition for the 30-mm cannon is full of armor-piercing shells, and in this case, the Coast Guard of the FSB of the Russian Federation knew in advance that it would be necessary to detain so-called. armored
                      19. +1
                        30 July 2019 21: 05
                        Operator, in the nomenclature of sea-based anti-aircraft guns they are not, land simply will not fit in size, as they differ in design.
                      20. +1
                        30 July 2019 21: 21
                        Operator, https://dumskaya.net/news/vmsu-poluchat-18-novejshih-katerov-gyurza-047753/, https://dumskaya.net/news/na-stolichnom-zavode-udarnymi-tempami-delayut-br -043365 / - how these boats are made and what kind of "armor" they use, (ARMSTAL500 if you suddenly did not find it)
                        http://politinform.su/oruzhie-i-boevaya-tehnika/61051-bronya-krepka-i-puli-nashi-bystry-ocherednoy-konfuz-kieva.html - это раз, https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2112266.html - это два, о вопросе качества этой "Брони".
                      21. 0
                        30 July 2019 21: 44
                        Twice plus laughing
                      22. 0
                        14 July 2019 19: 44
                        Quote: Operator
                        Photo armor BTR / BMP / MBT, broken by an external explosion of a cumulative charge, in the studio.


                        BTR M113 destroyed by a hit ATGM AGM-114 Hellfire.
                      23. 0
                        14 July 2019 20: 51
                        - So in fact, the 113 -th armor is aluminum ... Like, BMD.
                      24. 0
                        17 July 2019 00: 46
                        The M113 armored casing is a rigid box construction assembled by welding from rolled plates of aluminum armor according to military specifications MIL-A-46027 (MR) based on alloys (aluminum - magnesium - manganese) 5083 and 5086 in a cured state, thickness 12, 29, 32, 38 and 44 mm.
                        so here, most likely, there is a fire, and not a breach of armor.
                      25. 0
                        17 July 2019 22: 38
                        Quote: andrey_liss
                        so here, most likely, there is a fire, and not a breach of armor.

                        Just the fire was not here, the rollers are clean, the gum is in place. Pay attention to the clean, sparkling aluminum around the breach. Even the paint was shocked by the shock wave. So he was in sandy camouflage, his remains in the bow can be seen.
                      26. 0
                        30 July 2019 21: 02
                        Lieutenant, what were you sleeping on?
                      27. 0
                        12 July 2019 21: 39
                        Quote: Operator
                        This means that in a tank company there will be 260 counter-ammunition - multiple times more than the ATGM can be concentrated on the front of its attack.

                        And you can shoot the same spikes from a closed position!
                      28. 0
                        12 July 2019 21: 46
                        How will a closed position increase the number of ATGMs for overloading KAZ (this is what was discussed)?
                      29. 0
                        13 July 2019 04: 24
                        Okay, I’m chewing: behind the first line (which sees the target) we put the second, third and so on as much as you need, and they all shoot at the same time (with a minimum delay), the back lines are adjusted through the optical GTR ATGM.
          2. -3
            11 July 2019 20: 57
            What I have written to you is not at all my ideas.
            What the system works, not its separate component. And not paramount.
            For armored vehicles the main help is the infantry. And not aviation, artillery, and more.


            Not a fact at all. For any armored vehicles first of all help - timely maintenance and delivery of consumables. And I can not understand, because I am not aware of the details of your example.
            Why ... If TBRT were there, they would also be burned.


            That is all the more fact. If there is a vehicle, then there was an order for it, there was an order, it means there was a need. And if the object cannot be bypassed, as a rule, it is taken under control or destroyed.
            1. 0
              12 July 2019 08: 46
              Quote: 17085
              That is all the more fact.

              Fact. Zheleznyy. When the car is almost at an emphasis, from a distance of less than 50-meters, several grenade launchers begin to smoke, no TBTR will help.

              Quote: 17085
              If there is a vehicle, then there was an order for it, there was an order, it means there was a need.

              They themselves refuse this technique in favor of the TBMP and the wheeled armored personnel carrier. So the need has not been eliminated?
              1. -4
                12 July 2019 09: 07
                Quote: Spade
                Quote: 17085
                That is all the more fact.

                Fact. Zheleznyy. When the car is almost at an emphasis, from a distance of less than 50-meters, several grenade launchers begin to smoke, no TBTR will help.

                Quote: 17085
                If there is a vehicle, then there was an order for it, there was an order, it means there was a need.

                They themselves refuse this technique in favor of the TBMP and the wheeled armored personnel carrier. So the need has not been eliminated?

                Man, what are you talking about ?! Your, not afraid of this expression, wet fantasy, pretty fun. Show me at least ONE padded TBTR. For example the army of Israel.
                Not found? It's nothing, it's from the fact that 100500 grenade throwers are well treated with mortar fire, but
                For armored vehicles the main help is the infantry. And not aviation, artillery, and more.

                or are these not your words?
                I summarize. Toothbrush - brush your teeth, not what you thought.
                1. +7
                  12 July 2019 10: 03
                  Quote: 17085
                  Man, what are you talking about ?! Your, not afraid of this expression, wet fantasy, pretty fun. Show me at least ONE padded TBTR. For example the army of Israel.

                  Dear, for you, as for the gifted: it was about the most specific combat situation in Zemo-Quiti, when the 2 division of the 693 battalion of the SME got into a fire bag. The tank and the BMP-2 were destroyed, another BMP-2 was damaged, 5 people were killed, the crew of the entire tank

                  If you are sure that in this situation TBTR, fired at point-blank from three sides, would feel much better than a tank .... This is the very "wet fantasies" (c) that you mentioned.


                  Quote: 17085
                  It's nothing, it's from the fact that 100500 grenade throwers are well treated with mortar fire,

                  To do this, you need to find them. Or do you think that in this case it would be normal to have a preventive total destruction of the village by artillery "just in case"? This, too, is the very "wet fantasies" (c) which you mentioned.

                  Quote: 17085
                  or are these not your words?

                  These are my words. Just someone does not understand what thought they contain.
                  1. 0
                    16 October 2019 16: 08
                    Well tbtr is not a turret, it’s more difficult to detonate
          3. 0
            11 July 2019 22: 11
            Quote: Spade
            Quote: 17085
            Dismounting is performed directly with the positions of the enemy, 10-30 meters

            I'm afraid the enemy will not allow this.

            Not everything is so unambiguous, for example, exactly the same can be said about "landing to the TBD (theater of military operations) and walking to the firing position", because as soon as the enemy sees the tanks and the infantry behind them, he will immediately give his artillery an adjustment and all the infantry will fall. At the same time, armored combat vehicles without infantry will be destroyed by infantry PTSs or turntables (UAVs / PLA) if there are a lot of them. Here, notice the key point is modern means of communication and adjustments based on an ordinary smartphone (if it’s quite specifically, the system of synchronous-asynchronous packet transmission of digitized data).
            Actually, due to the aforementioned lack of a "classic offensive in the style of WWII", the TBTR tactics were invented where, due to quick maneuvers with the minimum time between detection and approach to firing positions, you can minimize your losses. At the same time, conventional armored personnel carriers / infantry fighting vehicles are not suitable due to the fact that they are not capable of holding fragments and shells of "antimaterial" weapons.
            1. 0
              12 July 2019 08: 40
              Quote: ProkletyiPirat
              after all, as soon as the enemy sees the tanks and the infantry behind them, he immediately gives his artillery an adjustment and all the infantry will lodge.

              To do this, they will have to fire their own positions.
              Moreover, by the time of the attack, the artillery of the enemy must be suppressed, otherwise the attackers will be slapped much earlier than the infantry dismounts.
              1. 0
                12 July 2019 21: 26
                Quote: Spade
                To do this, they will have to fire their own positions.

                TBTR will have this, but BTR \ BMP doesn’t, which I wrote above.
                Quote: Spade
                In addition, by the time of transition to the attack, enemy artillery should be suppressed

                "must be suppressed" and "suppressed" are two big differences, and in fact, with the development of self-propelled guns, it is no longer possible to suppress everything and everyone, because a couple of cars / trucks with a mortar / howitzer can always be hidden somewhere in the bushes, which will occupy position.
        2. +1
          11 July 2019 13: 35
          The tactics of using heavy armored personnel carriers should consist precisely in the rapid delivery of infantry, under enemy fire, directly to the line of contact, where its support (infantry) is needed, i.e. dismounting and deployment. Dismounting is performed directly with the positions of the enemy

          All right, the Syrian experience showed the weakness of the BMP1-2 when it is necessary to give a landing in an urban setting.
          1. +2
            11 July 2019 22: 26
            Quote: loki565
            All right, the Syrian experience showed the weakness of the BMP1-2 when it is necessary to give a landing in an urban setting.

            And what is the weakness? On the contrary, it is shown a close exploding of a landmine and nothing, only the wings broke off and a pair of holes. Neither the troops nor the crew suffered as a result. But if the landing on the armor was sitting, as if it would be more correct, there would be many such a landmine there.
  2. +8
    11 July 2019 05: 04
    Conventional armored personnel carriers are easily vulnerable, and a priority goal for grenade launchers, large-scale, and generally armored men. There is also the SVU factor. And these are losses, and unjustified. And if you are in the ranks of the infantry, which armored personnel carrier would you prefer? There is a rational grain in the author's judgments, but there are also a lot of factors for heavy armored personnel carriers. IMHO true in the middle, in equipping the BTR with a normally functioning KAZ.
    1. +5
      11 July 2019 06: 04
      There is a rational grain in the author's judgments, but there are also a lot of factors for heavy armored personnel carriers. IMHO true in the middle, in equipping the BTR with a normally functioning KAZ.

      Heavy BTR is really just a Wishlist to hide deep, far away, under heavy armor and so on. But in my opinion, then, in general, nonsense is obtained - the task of the BMP is to deliver the landing force to the battlefield. NOT LEADING THE FIGHT (there is a tank for this). By making the BMP heavy, we slow it down, make it clumsy (the weight of Namara is 60, the BMP-3 is near 20), plus the author is right — with a sense of security, there is a deceptive desire to use TBMP directly on the battlefield. Where the enemy sooner or later hit her.
      But of course, having only an aluminum bead as protection is another extreme.
      1. +4
        11 July 2019 06: 33
        BTR. BMP just differs in that it must support the infantry with fire.
        1. +9
          11 July 2019 10: 33
          Quote: carstorm 11
          BTR. BMP just differs in that it must support the infantry with fire.

          ... Use of TBT according to circumstances hi
        2. +1
          11 July 2019 18: 45
          Quote: carstorm 11
          BTR. BMP just differs in that it must support the infantry with fire.

          Yeah :)) Surely, that is why in the regulations and manuals for mts.platoon they are, in fact, equated with others. And when studying "tactics", future officers are taught how to provide fire support to mts-covs by means of bmp / ​​armored personnel carriers. And of course, precisely because "BTR. BMP is just different in that it must support the infantry with fire" in the Armed Forces of Russia and most other countries, all wheeled "classic" armored personnel carriers with machine-gun armament are smartly replaced or modernized to the level of "cannon BTR" / "wheeled BMP".
      2. +7
        11 July 2019 08: 57
        Quote: Ka-52
        Making the BMP heavy, we slow it down, make it slow

        How is the tank?
        1. +2
          11 July 2019 09: 29
          Quote: Spade
          Quote: Ka-52
          Making the BMP heavy, we slow it down, make it slow

          How is the tank?

          How is the machine gun? :)
      3. +2
        11 July 2019 11: 41
        Read the charter, already BMP-2 had to go on the attack, along with tanks
        1. +5
          11 July 2019 16: 10
          Quote: KPblC
          Read the charter, already BMP-2 had to go on the attack, along with tanks

          Then read correctly, to the line of dismounting, then from shelter to shelter. What is the distance from tanks and infantry? In some cases, the offensive is conducted in a single armored battle formation. As I do not recall the introduction of changes in the BUSU in connection with the entry into service of the BMP-2.
          1. +2
            13 July 2019 23: 25
            You are talking about the BMP-1, and as soon as you made the BMP-2 with the stub, you immediately pushed it into orders of magnitude.
            1. +1
              15 July 2019 00: 54
              Quote: KPblC
              Are you talking about BMP-1

              Where in the combat charter says that the BMP equipped with a stub comes in line with the tanks? Or did you hear this from a senile military commander at school?
              1. 0
                21 July 2019 21: 26
                See the same genius
                https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6442/176883801.4/0_a3ad1_1bc5455b_XL.jpg
                https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4123/176883801.4/0_a3ada_575c3dfc_XL.jpg
                https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4132/176883801.4/0_a3ad3_fac0fb5b_XL.jpg
        2. -4
          11 July 2019 22: 28
          Charters, as well as doctrines, are written mainly by staff theorists and uncles with large shoulder straps, but all this dregs are of little use for real DBs, which is shown by the experience of almost all real wars. Read how before WWII the Soviet command raved about "a war on foreign territory and tank marches" and how it came to the point and "we did not go through this we were not asked ...." And after WWII all this was repeated more than once, and not only with us but also there and with them ...

          In general, in my opinion, what is needed in battle is not so much a charter as a "cheat sheet for a commander / soldier" and more advanced tactical capabilities for tactical groups. For example, a modular booking with a reset function so that the AFV can quickly lose weight and swim across a water obstacle, or also add. armor carried on an additional armored personnel carrier / infantry fighting vehicle instead of infantry and used in direct assault.
          1. 0
            13 July 2019 23: 29
            Have you ever led people on something more difficult than unloading a car?
            Charters is just what the army generally rests on as a mega massive administrative structure, without charters and other bureaucracy it would be good if ISIS.
            1. 0
              14 July 2019 00: 05
              KPblC (Nikolay) Unlike you, I share
              1) the charter as a document regulating the relationship of the military
              2) the charter as a document defining the maintenance of the database
              I have no complaints about the first, but I have the second, for what is written there and what is in a real war are two big differences ...
    2. +1
      11 July 2019 07: 40
      Quote: Ali Kokand
      There is a rational grain in the author's judgments, but there are also a lot of factors for heavy armored personnel carriers. IMHO true in the middle, in equipping the BTR with a normally functioning KAZ.

      That's it. Any technique will find application if you apply the right tactics and set realistic goals. Such an argument as "have it just in case" has a place to be! But according to the existing doctrine, order / have the required amount, but no more.
    3. +21
      11 July 2019 07: 47
      Quote: Ali Kokand
      And if you are in the ranks of the infantry, which armored personnel carrier would you prefer?

      For your information, the infantry, according to the military regulations, prefers to attack the heavily fortified defenses in the city, canyons, forest, etc., only on foot. Yes, sir ...
      Because it knows for sure: a projectile, a mine, a land mine always have an advantage over any armor and hiding in a heavy and heavily protected car from an enemy with modern TCP, and not just AK, is stupid and deadly. This is when storming a house with a terrorist spetsnaz goes into a convoy one by one after an armored troop-carrier; in general combat, only fire, maneuver and mother-cheese earth (terrain folds, trenches, etc.) can help overcome the enemy’s fire impact.
      Armor and, even KAZ, is the last and, far away, non-100% opportunity to save the combat vehicle and crew.
      "Some civilians", by the way, are in the illusion that a BOPS or ATGM is, yes, dangerous, and say a 122mm o / f shell on a tank or an armored personnel carrier is nonsense, like a mosquito bite. laughing
      They are deluded. Small and medium caliber shells can damage the scope windows, elements of the KAZ, "curtains", the gun barrel, jam the turret, damage the chassis, etc.
      I personally saw the result of hitting a practical (empty soft blank-imitation of a cumulative projectile) into the stern of a tank with meters from 300. Although the crew was not injured, the weld of the gearbox housing burst and the units (gearbox and engine) were stranded from the supports. The tank was out of service and required repair in the factory. And in the Donbass hit T-64 with a machine gun caliber 12,7 mm. He hit the car in the bottom when she overcame an obstacle.
      So heavy armored personnel carriers are specific vehicles for their combat conditions.
      Each model of armored vehicles should be applied according to its tactics; there are no miracle weapons.
    4. 0
      11 July 2019 09: 40
      Quote: Ali Kokand
      in equipping the BTR with a normally functioning KAZ.

      How does KAZ from SVU help? How will he stop a land mine, and even a side mine?
      1. -2
        11 July 2019 14: 57
        Probably an additional set of jamming - and a system of remote exploding of mines and IEDs with electromagnetic fuses.
        1. +1
          11 July 2019 22: 34
          Quote: Vadim237
          Probably an additional set of jamming - and a system of remote exploding of mines and IEDs with electromagnetic fuses.

          1) for the Strategic Missile Forces column is a mandatory limitation
          2) for column supplies is a desirable requirement.
          3) for combat groups this is completely unacceptable because it instantly breaks down and then "we work as before"
          1. 0
            11 July 2019 22: 53
            This is why she instantly fails?
            1. +1
              12 July 2019 02: 41
              KAZ (active defense systems), both anti-ATGM, anti-RPG and anti-mine, require active external systems that are easily carried out in battle. Here and artillery, and RPG / ATGM, and IED, and anti-material cartridges (ATGM, etc.), etc. It's just that where the KAZ is really needed, they are easily carried out, and where they are not carried out you can do without them at the expense of other means and methods. This is what stops the introduction of KAZ, and not the notorious "threat to the infantry."
              1. -3
                13 July 2019 10: 59
                Armata has such a system - and it does not have any external elements.
                1. 0
                  13 July 2019 18: 03

                  And now find a video of evidence of armor not penetration (maintaining performance when hit) radar and drafts of afghanite when fired by bullets with a metal core (BB) caliber 7,62 \ 12,7 \ 14,5. and preferably special cartridges for PTR (anti-material rifles). That's when you can provide evidence, then KAZ will really be needed.
  3. sen
    +12
    11 July 2019 05: 25
    Third. Since the TBTR, in contrast to the BMP-1 and its later branches, does not provide for the possibility of firing a landing force from under the armor, it turns out that a considerable part of the battle the motorized infantry will passively, as passengers.

    Something I have never seen mention of the successful fire of infantry from my weapon through the embrasure BM.
    1. +8
      11 July 2019 05: 37
      everything is so absolute, in most cases, a useless thing in a white light as a penny hundreds of rounds of ammunition from several machines from different sides, these embrasures only make the car body less durable
      1. +1
        11 July 2019 22: 37
        Yes, in general this way 90% small fire is barrage and suppression fire, not fire to kill.
    2. -2
      11 July 2019 07: 27
      Quote: sen
      Something I have never seen mention of the successful fire of infantry from my weapon through the embrasure BM.

      Because in the light of the weak security of the Mass Grave of the Infantry, the infantry chose to move AT armor.
      1. +7
        11 July 2019 08: 29
        Quote: professor
        Because in the light of the weak security of the Mass Grave of the Infantry, the infantry preferred to move on to armor.

        Why is the Israeli infantry not moving "AT armor "(c) M113, the most common means of transporting infantry on the battlefield. Is it much more protected than the Russian BMP / BTR?
        1. +7
          11 July 2019 09: 27
          Quote: Spade
          Quote: professor
          Because in the light of the weak security of the Mass Grave of the Infantry, the infantry preferred to move on to armor.

          Why is the Israeli infantry not moving "AT armor "(c) M113, the most common means of transporting infantry on the battlefield. Is it much more protected than the Russian BMP / BTR?

          Israeli infantry moves under armor heavy armored personnel carriers where there is a danger. Last time М113 was applied to Gaza not far from the front line and unfortunately with dire consequences. More M113 do not apply and the need to move NA no armor. Moreover, now the Cameras equip KAZ.
          1. +7
            11 July 2019 10: 43
            For 100 Namers in the ranks of the Israeli army, there are 500 M113s, plus about five thousand in storage. Plus about a hundred armored vehicles.
            I will repeat the question again. Why don't they ride them "AT armor ", are they so much better protected than the Russian BMP / BTR?
            No water, just try to answer the question.

            Then we will discuss the "Eytans", which will replace the M113 in the future, but at the same time they will obviously lose to the "Namers" in security.
            1. +6
              11 July 2019 10: 52
              Quote: Spade
              For 100 Namers in the ranks of the Israeli army, there are 500 M113s, plus about five thousand in storage. Plus about a hundred armored vehicles.
              I will repeat the question again. Why are they not being ridden on "ON armor", are they so much better protected than Russian BMP / BTR?

              You are not attentive. M113 on the front do not apply with the exception of unmanned versions. Their purpose is an all-terrain vehicle.

              Quote: Spade
              I will repeat the question again. Why are they not being ridden on "ON armor", are they so much better protected than Russian BMP / BTR?

              Once again the answer. This is not necessary because they do not appear on the front line.

              At the expense of better or worse, they are hard for me to say. Installed anti-tumor screens, anti-spatter coating. The manufacturer claims that the upgrade can withstand an RPG hit. In a large series did not go due to lack of need.



              Quote: Spade
              Then we will discuss the "Eytans", which will replace the M113 in the future, but at the same time they will obviously lose to the "Namers" in security.

              We can and Dana discuss. Everyone has their own niche.
              1. +6
                11 July 2019 11: 04
                Quote: professor
                You are not attentive. М113 on the front do not apply

                And, it after the Israeli military personnel refused to go to fight on them?
                But it is, the lyrics.
                Once again, I urge you not to clutter up the branch with information noise. You just need to answer the question, why are they not being ridden "ON armor", are they so much better protected than Russian BMP / BTR?

                Quote: professor
                We can and Dana discuss. Everyone has their own niche.

                We will definitely discuss. Also in the context of "ride on armor"
                1. +1
                  11 July 2019 12: 34
                  Quote: Spade
                  Quote: professor
                  You are not attentive. М113 on the front do not apply

                  You just need to answer the question, why are they not being ridden "ON armor", are they so much better protected than Russian BMP / BTR?

                  Because in the Palestinian theater of operations, the chance of being killed from AK while moving on the armor M-113 is much higher than from the use of PT-means. At the beginning of 2000-x M-113 in Gaza was used during the movement in the sector, with sandbags on the sides, in a column of other equipment. For patrolling dangerous areas used TBTR Mehuar (Uglyovtsya), converted, EMNIP, from the English Centurion, but then the Palestinians did not even have an RPG.
                  1. +4
                    11 July 2019 12: 56
                    Quote: Krasnodar
                    Because in the Palestinian theater of war the chance of being killed from AK while moving on the armor of the M-113 is much higher

                    ... than to be killed from AK, from a machine gun, with an explosion of a roadside bomb, with an undermining of OZMka, with a shot from a grenade launcher, with an undermining of a grenade ..... and so on, but only in Chechnya?

                    You just don’t have to talk nonsense about "sitting on armor because of poor protection"
                    1. +2
                      11 July 2019 13: 05
                      So, the M-113 is also not a good defense. In Gaza, put sandbags on the sides.
                2. +4
                  11 July 2019 13: 09
                  Quote: Spade
                  And, it after the Israeli military personnel refused to go to fight on them?

                  Not. We do not refuse to go into battle. There are isolated cases, but this phenomenon does not have mass character. M113 no longer fighting after the tragic incident in Gaza.

                  Quote: Spade
                  You just need to answer the question, why are they not being ridden "ON armor", are they so much better protected than Russian BMP / BTR?

                  According to the charter is not allowed. This answer will suit?

                  At the expense of better reserved, I answered above.
                  1. +4
                    11 July 2019 13: 19
                    Quote: professor
                    According to the charter is not allowed. This answer will suit?

                    Not satisfied. It turns out that the Israeli Charter on level ground creates an additional danger for military personnel?
                    1. +3
                      11 July 2019 13: 23
                      Quote: Spade
                      Quote: professor
                      According to the charter is not allowed. This answer will suit?

                      Not satisfied. It turns out that the Israeli Charter on level ground creates an additional danger for military personnel?

                      Exactly the opposite. According our armor is safer. It will be safer on armor - we will drive like you.
                      1. +6
                        11 July 2019 13: 40
                        Quote: professor
                        For our armor safer.

                        Back to the beginning. Why didn't they force the Israeli soldiers to ride the M113 armor?
                        Or do you think that only Russian servicemen should die from bullets, shrapnel, and shock waves, and therefore you support this most dangerous myth about "sitting on armor is safer"?
                      2. +1
                        11 July 2019 13: 50
                        Quote: Spade
                        For our armor safer.

                        Back to the beginning. Why didn't they force the Israeli soldiers to ride the M113 armor?

                        Because For our armor safer.

                        Quote: Spade
                        Or do you think that only Russian servicemen should die from bullets, shrapnel, and shock waves, and therefore you support this most dangerous myth about "sitting on armor is safer"?

                        1. How to ride your fighters is your business.
                        2. Where did you see in my comments that I support the movement on armor? I'm just stating a fact: your fighters prefer to move AT armor.
                      3. +6
                        11 July 2019 14: 01
                        Quote: professor
                        How to ride your fighters is your business.

                        And because you are spreading this myth, while referring to the experience of our fighters?
                        it's your words, isn't it?
                        "Because in light of the weak protection of the Mass Grave of the Infantry, the infantry preferred to move ON armor."

                        In fact, no one has ever called the car "Mass Grave of Infantry" .. Only "beha". And they skated on the armor not at all because of the "weak security". Moreover, everyone was well aware of how much more dangerous ON the armor than inside.


                        So you better go, tell the myths about the fact that "Namer is not needed, put the infantry up the M113, it will be safer." And do not go to our BMP / BTR. And even more so, there is no need to lie about the alleged "mass grave of the infantry." Considering that you yourself have decided to limit yourself to a hundred "intentions", and change all the rest to much less protected wheeled vehicles.
                      4. +1
                        11 July 2019 14: 17
                        Quote: Spade
                        And because you are spreading this myth, while referring to the experience of our fighters?
                        it's your words, isn't it?
                        "Because in light of the weak protection of the Mass Grave of the Infantry, the infantry preferred to move ON armor."

                        This is not a myth, but a harsh reality.

                        Enough courage to drive them under armor? wink

                        Quote: Spade
                        In fact, no one has ever called the car "Mass Grave of Infantry" .. Only "beha". And they skated on the armor not at all because of the "weak security". Moreover, everyone was well aware of how much more dangerous ON the armor than inside.

                        Yep On the armor sat because the armor is more dangerous for life? Kamikaze however.

                        Quote: Spade
                        So you better go, tell the myths about the fact that "Namer is not needed, put the infantry up the M113, it will be safer." And do not go to our BMP / BTR. And even more so, there is no need to lie about the alleged "mass grave of the infantry." Considering that you yourself have decided to limit yourself to a hundred "intentions", and change all the rest to much less protected wheeled vehicles.

                        Where should I go and what should I tell this my business and your advice I do not need. Our infantry goes for armor regardless of the climate because it is safer. Your infantry for your armor does not want to go. In no way. The problem is either in the infantry or in armor. I know the answer.
                        The mass grave of infantry she is. It's not my fault.
                        No one was limited to 100 interov. their production continues.
                      5. +10
                        11 July 2019 14: 40
                        Our infantry goes for armor regardless of the climate because it is safer. Your infantry for your armor does not want to go. In no way.

                        Because against your infantry, nobody prepares first-class mercenaries, with the most modern weapons, as against the Russians.
                        That's the whole answer.
                        As soon as the new Russian anti-tank weapons are delivered to the bogeyles, then your infantry will also start riding armor. But Russian, terrorists do not supply weapons, unlike some ......
                      6. +5
                        11 July 2019 15: 38
                        Quote: lucul
                        As soon as the new Russian anti-tank weapons are delivered to the bogeyles, then your infantry will also start riding armor.

                        If Russia supplied Hamas or Hezbollah in a huge amount of modern anti-tank missile systems and grenade launchers, the Israeli army would not have traveled to its neighbors "on a visit" either on armor or for armor. She just wouldn't drive at all for safety reasons. Going "on a visit" without an invitation would stop very quickly.
                      7. -1
                        11 July 2019 19: 52
                        Quote: lucul
                        But Russian, terrorists do not supply weapons, unlike some ......

                        What a twist. And how did Hezbollah have your ATGWs in 2006? And where does Hamas have Russian ATGMs from? And x well, yes. In your case, they are considered freedom fighters. partisans.
                      8. +4
                        11 July 2019 20: 31
                        What a twist. And how did Hezbollah have your ATGWs in 2006? And where does Hamas have Russian ATGMs from?

                        Russia supplies not the most modern weapon many countries, including Iran, and already those, I fully admit, and can supply them to the bogeyans.
                        But, I repeat, not the most modern.
                        Well-trained and trained mercenaries are fighting against the Russians, with the most up-to-date armament (which only Stinger was worth for those years), and the little guerrilla units against you.
                        If Russia, for example, took to itself, to our latitudes, and would well train for 3-5 years, a couple of battalions of barmaleums, and teach them to use modern weapons. Then you would immediately feel it, on your own skin, having become acquainted, for example, with Chrysanthemums, and you would also start riding armor.
                        But this does not happen, because Russia does not support Barmaley in principle, such as the United States of Dushmans, in its time.
                        That's the whole difference. And of course, yes, you can blow your cheeks ...
                      9. -3
                        11 July 2019 21: 02
                        Quote: lucul
                        Russia does not supply the most advanced weapons to many countries, including Iran, and already, I fully admit, and can supply them to the bogeyman.

                        You supply the most advanced ATGMs, such as Cornet Hezbollah, selling them for pro forma allegedly through Syria. But these are excuses, your military is well aware that the weapon is going to terrorists. Always when selling weapons, a ban on transferring it to a third party is indicated, but if your weapon eventually ends up with the Terrosists and Russia is not indignant, then it knows the end user in advance.
                        Quote: lucul
                        Stinger

                        This is an American weapon, not an Israeli one.
                        Quote: lucul
                        If Russia, for example, took to itself, to our latitudes, and would well train for 3-5 years, a couple of battalions of barmaleums, and teach them to use modern weapons.

                        In Soviet times, you trained thousands of Arab terrorists on your territory. It is known that the killed terrorists in the 80s in Lebanon found evidence of the successful completion of the Shot courses, signed by General Dragunsky.
                        Quote: lucul
                        So you would immediately feel it, on your own skin, having become acquainted, for example, with Chrysanthemums.

                        Your Chrysanthemums must first get to the battlefield. Find out in more detail what happened to the Hezbollah tanks and rocket launchers in 2006. None of them reached the battlefield. All were destroyed by drones.
                        Quote: lucul
                        But this does not happen, because Russia does not support the Barmaleev,

                        Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah have your weapons. I met the Lebanese militants in Moscow at the beginning of 90x in Moscow. They studied at our institute and told many interesting things because they did not know that I was a Jew.
                      10. +3
                        11 July 2019 22: 10
                        You supply the most advanced ATGMs, such as Cornet Hezbollah, selling them for pro forma allegedly through Syria.
                        In Soviet times, you trained thousands of Arab terrorists on your territory. It is known that the killed terrorists in the 80s in Lebanon found evidence of the successful completion of the Shot courses, signed by General Dragunsky.

                        This is all Grandma Arina's tales ....
                        Take the Khmeimim airbase, it is daily attacked by militants from various weapons, and using the most modern unmanned vehicles, which "supposedly partisans" should not have and know how to use at all.
                        Israel, for example, is not attacked by numerous unmanned vehicles, and even at night.
                        And you are under-attacked by partisans, militants who do not know how to properly use weapons.
                        But in your worldview (imagination), of course, these bogeys are just super trained warriors (cyborgs) that inspire fear in you.
                        You see cornets from them - did they appear - many since the cornets that they shot down?
                        Give an inexperienced person a gun - not the fact that he will shoot at all (remove the fuse) ....
                      11. -3
                        11 July 2019 22: 45
                        Quote: lucul
                        You see cornets from them - did they appear - many since the cornets that they shot down?


                        These are the Cornets of Hezbollah captured in 2006.

                        And this is from the last. Hamas used your cornet in May of this year to attack the grakhdansky car.
                        "IDF Investigation: Car Near Gaza Border Hit by Kornet Rocket"
                        http://www.newsru.co.il/israel/05may2019/kornet_179.html
                      12. 0
                        11 July 2019 22: 48
                        And this is from the last. Hamas used your cornet in May of this year to attack the grakhdansky car.
                        IDF investigation: vehicle hit by Kornet rocket near Gaza border

                        But you yourself understand that their brains were enough only for a civilian car ... What kind of specialists can we talk about here ....
                        Civilian of course sorry.
                      13. -3
                        11 July 2019 22: 51
                        Quote: lucul
                        But you yourself understand that their brains were enough only for a civilian car ... What kind of specialists can we talk about here ....
                        Civilian of course sorry.

                        You supply weapons through Syria to terrorists, real terrorists, who use it to kill civilians.
                      14. 0
                        11 July 2019 22: 54
                        You supply weapons through Syria to terrorists, real terrorists, who use it to kill civilians.

                        We do not supply. Give evidence of OUR direct shipments. What third countries supply from them and ask.
                      15. -3
                        11 July 2019 22: 59
                        Quote: lucul
                        We do not supply. Give evidence of OUR direct shipments. What third countries supply from them and ask.

                        But it is not clear. Cornet is not a slingshot, it is a high-tech weapon, for which special control is established. Obviously, your Cornets are transferred to a third party with the tacit consent of Russia.
                      16. +3
                        11 July 2019 23: 04
                        But it is not clear. Cornet is not a slingshot, it is a high-tech weapon, which has special control

                        He is already 20 years old))
                        Russia supplies various weapons to Syria and Iran, with the help of which they are fighting against bogeyles in Syria. The fact that these weapons can be used illegally in various situations is understandable. But these are isolated cases, it is difficult to keep track of everything. This is not about mass deliveries, say in 10 000 Cornets, right?
                        You would immediately feel it on yourself.
                      17. -3
                        11 July 2019 23: 16
                        Quote: lucul
                        He is already 20 years old))
                        Russia supplies various weapons to Syria and Iran, with the help of which they are fighting against bogeyles in Syria. The fact that these weapons can be used illegally in various situations is understandable. But these are isolated cases, it is difficult to keep track of everything. This is not about mass deliveries, say in 10 000 Cornets, right?
                        You would immediately feel it on yourself.

                        Soon there will be a war in Gaza, and there we will see how many of your anti-tank systems have fallen to them. 20 years is quite a modern weapon. Outdated, it's hard to call it. Look at how your arguments change, at first you argued that Russia does not cooperate with terrorists, then that it does not supply them with modern weapons, and now your argument is that the supplies are not massive.
                      18. +1
                        11 July 2019 23: 21
                        Look at how your arguments change, at first you argued that Russia does not cooperate with terrorists, then that it does not supply them with modern weapons, and now your argument is that the supplies are not massive.

                        Pfff .....
                        I still claim that Russia does not supply weapons to the bogeyhood. But it’s hard to talk to fanatics; everything is difficult in their imaginary world .....
                      19. -2
                        11 July 2019 23: 33
                        Quote: lucul
                        Pfff .....
                        I still claim that Russia does not supply weapons to the bogeyhood. But it’s hard to talk to fanatics; everything is difficult in their imaginary world .....

                        Well, yes, we are fanatics. And your Islamic friends from Hamas-Hezbollah are just a club of young scientists. Continue in the same spirit. You have great friends.
                      20. +2
                        11 July 2019 23: 50
                        Well, yes, we are fanatics

                        I explain why I called you so a Jew, first of all by conviction (suggestion), because
                        I met the Lebanese militants in Moscow at the beginning of 90x in Moscow. They studied at our institute and told many interesting things because they did not know that I was a Jew.

                        A Semite cannot fail to recognize a Semite. It is as if an Armenian does not recognize an Armenian, or a Georgian Georgian.
                        And your Islamic friends from Hamas-Hezbollah are just a club of young scientists

                        They are not friends with us. We didn’t create them and someone else maintains them.
                        But your fanaticism is getting boring ....
                      21. 0
                        12 July 2019 01: 42
                        Quote: lucul
                        A Semite cannot fail to recognize a Semite. It is as if an Armenian does not recognize an Armenian, or a Georgian Georgian.

                        Are you a nice person not aware that European Jews and Arabs are completely different from each other?

                        Quote: lucul
                        They are not friends with us. We didn’t create them and someone else maintains them.

                        No, you just sell them weapons through Syria. More precisely transfer, because Assad has long been no money to pay to you. It is for the content of Assad you raised the retirement age. You can tell him thanks. Russians themselves are joking on this topic:



                        Quote: lucul
                        But your fanaticism is getting boring ....

                        Drain protected.
                      22. +2
                        13 July 2019 15: 53
                        I love such "arguments" from various fairy-tale geniuses: as soon as their arguments are beaten, insults are addressed to the interlocutor or the topic "Putin" pops up. :))))
                      23. 0
                        14 July 2019 22: 02
                        When the barmaleevs were seized from the "Uzi" beyond the river, in Chechnya - was that normal? And not only with this, by the way, they are also other ezali toys, which are often not found in rifle shops for the general public ...
                      24. +2
                        12 July 2019 00: 12
                        "Cornet" on the car is a perversion laughing

                        Come on you. You yourself kill civilian packs in Gaza. What makes you different from Hamas, Hezbollah and others?
                      25. +2
                        12 July 2019 01: 33
                        Quote: wehr
                        "Cornet" on the car is a perversion
                        Come on you. You yourself kill civilian packs in Gaza. What makes you different from Hamas, Hezbollah and others?

                        And how are you different, using cluster bombs in a city full of civilians? Or are you not aware of how you are fighting in Syria?
                      26. +6
                        12 July 2019 01: 54
                        Beautiful picture! This is how urban battles should be fought: first with cluster bombs, then missiles, then self-propelled guns, and then the infantry will slowly go and clean up what's left.
                        Not on that attacked. laughing I was still at Megaforum.
                      27. -3
                        12 July 2019 01: 58
                        Quote: wehr
                        Beautiful picture! This is how urban battles should be fought: first with cluster bombs, then missiles, then self-propelled guns, and then the infantry will slowly go and clean up what's left.

                        Do not bother you that civilians die there in bundles?
                      28. +1
                        12 July 2019 02: 04
                        Why should I be embarrassed? Noncombatants must get out of the combat area. If they remain, then they can be regarded as support for the bogeyman.
                      29. -1
                        12 July 2019 02: 08
                        Quote: wehr
                        Why should I be embarrassed? Noncombatants must get out of the combat area. If they remain, then they can be regarded as support for the bogeyman.

                        Ie if Israel in Gaza destroys the house of a terrorist, having previously warned the inhabitants of the house, he is a terrorist.
                        And if your VCs are mowed down in whole quarters - are they heroes?
                        Right?
                      30. +3
                        12 July 2019 02: 14
                        The goals of the war differ. Our goals are for the Islamic State to lie in the ground like their predecessors in Chechnya. Your goal is to intimidate the Palestinians in the hope that they will flee and free your lands.
                      31. -1
                        12 July 2019 02: 21
                        Quote: wehr
                        The goals of the war differ. Our goals are for the Islamic State to lie in the ground like their predecessors in Chechnya

                        DAISH has long been broken. You are fighting with the Sunni opposition, it is the Arabs who do not want to live under the Alawite yoke.
                        Quote: wehr
                        Your goal is to intimidate the Palestinians in the hope that they will flee and liberate your land.

                        Your textbook doesn’t say how to drive out poor Palestinians did Israel manage to get 25% of the Arab population? Look for it.
                      32. +3
                        12 July 2019 02: 27
                        The opposition has offered to come to an agreement more than once or twice. The fighting opposition is the same "Islamic State", only slightly repainted.

                        How do I know? Zionists are so inconsistent. They brought themselves Ethiopians, in comparison with which the Palestinians are just a sample of civilization. Delivered - and enjoy.
                      33. -2
                        12 July 2019 02: 30
                        Quote: wehr
                        The opposition has offered to come to an agreement more than once or twice. The fighting opposition is the same "Islamic State", only slightly repainted.

                        Agree on Assad, then again go to his slavery. People do not want and fight for their independence. The Kurds, too, are not eager to return under his wing. Strange yes?

                        Quote: wehr
                        How do I know? Zionists are so inconsistent. They brought themselves Ethiopians, in comparison with which the Palestinians are just a sample of civilization. Delivered - and enjoy.

                        If you do not have the information, then why are you trying to judge things that you do not have a clue about?
                      34. +3
                        12 July 2019 02: 36
                        Yes, let them fight. But then there is nothing to complain that cluster bombs are being thrown at them.

                        Information is now full. And that my views do not match yours, so why are you surprised? You don't pay me shekels for me to be loyal to you.
                      35. -1
                        12 July 2019 02: 43
                        Quote: wehr
                        Yes, let them fight. But then there is nothing to complain that cluster bombs are being thrown at them.

                        Those. old people and children who died during the demolition of the next quarter are themselves to blame, because they could not escape?

                        Quote: wehr
                        Information is now full.

                        Then explain how Israel, driving out Arabs from the land, managed to get 25% Arab population? Maybe everything is much easier? And no Arabs are not expelled anywhere?
                      36. 0
                        12 July 2019 02: 49
                        If they didn’t leave, then they like to live under the bogeyies.

                        You believe that I do not know how Israel came into being and what happened during this? Want me to stick to your point of view - pay shekels. laughing
                      37. 0
                        17 July 2019 03: 39
                        That, too, we know how from the Principality of Kiev, suddenly the biggest in the world))
                      38. MMX
                        +2
                        12 July 2019 16: 07
                        Quote: kiril1246
                        Quote: wehr
                        The goals of the war differ. Our goals are for the Islamic State to lie in the ground like their predecessors in Chechnya

                        DAISH has long been broken. You are fighting with the Sunni opposition, it is the Arabs who do not want to live under the Alawite yoke.

                        Did the Israeli propaganda tell you this? Like the fact that in Russia the retirement age was raised for the war in Syria?
                        By the way, the retirement age in the USA, Germany, France and other Western countries is also rising. Apparently, also to maintain the Assad regime.

                        Your textbook doesn’t say how to drive out poor Palestinians did Israel manage to get 25% of the Arab population? Look for it.

                        But it’s not written in your training manual, why, contrary to the UN decision, there is still only one Jewish state created on the site of Palestine, not two: Jews and Arabs?
                      39. 0
                        14 July 2019 22: 06
                        So they have written that you can just pile a car on those UN decisions. And put the M64 screw on their own borders, navigating where they can. Although, when the Arabs tried to do it, they revolted them ....
                      40. 0
                        17 July 2019 03: 43
                        it is not written for you to seize the land by force of arms and give them away?
                      41. 0
                        17 July 2019 03: 42
                        I think two state officers did not want to be at 48?) Only one Arab
                      42. 0
                        17 July 2019 03: 36
                        Your goal was to leave Assad in power
                      43. 0
                        12 July 2019 10: 03
                        Quote: kiril1246
                        Ie if Israel in Gaza destroys the house of a terrorist, having previously warned the inhabitants of the house, he is a terrorist.
                        And if your VCs are mowed down in whole quarters - are they heroes?
                        Right?


                        Absolutely the same. One soldier is worth more than a hundred foreign civilians. You are either a humanist who does not accept war (but then yes, the RBK-500 with ZABs on the quarters of Syrian cities is a little too much), or a propagandist (here are "terrorist accomplices" and we are bombing, and there "peaceful Palestinians" and Jews offend them !! 11), or you understand everything perfectly and ignore this topic (even if you have sympathy for one of the parties, which is already there).
                      44. -1
                        12 July 2019 11: 41
                        Quote: CTABEP
                        Absolutely the same. One soldier is more expensive than hundreds of foreign civilians

                        Maybe in the next war in Gaza, invite the Russian Aerospace Forces to restore order there so that the Palestinians would feel the difference, so to speak.
                      45. 0
                        14 July 2019 06: 38
                        Quote: wehr
                        Why should I be embarrassed? Noncombatants must get out of the combat area. If they remain, then they can be regarded as support for the bogeyman.

                        I'll take it to my quote book. Do you mind? I will not even ask how 3-year-old children "can be regarded as support for the barmaley."
                      46. 0
                        17 July 2019 03: 34
                        And when do you bomb in Syria?)
                      47. The comment was deleted.
                      48. 5-9
                        0
                        12 July 2019 14: 07
                        Military chtol ATS sell something?
                        ATS isn't it sells Hezbollah ATGM?
                        Is Hezbollah recognized by Russia as a terrorist organization?

                        Yes, and there were these Korents - in the end, yes, a little, otherwise the losses would have been completely different ... with 1300 mm of penetration ... then the Panzenrwaffe of the IDF and the sofa soldiers, justifying the high losses and failure to achieve the goals of the operation, howled "Thousands of Cornets flew over our head "....
                      49. MMX
                        +1
                        12 July 2019 15: 52
                        Quote: kiril1246
                        Quote: lucul
                        Russia does not supply the most advanced weapons to many countries, including Iran, and already, I fully admit, and can supply them to the bogeyman.

                        You supply the most advanced ATGMs, such as Cornet Hezbollah, selling them for pro forma allegedly through Syria. But these are excuses, your military is well aware that the weapon is going to terrorists. Always when selling weapons, a ban on transferring it to a third party is indicated, but if your weapon eventually ends up with the Terrosists and Russia is not indignant, then it knows the end user in advance.


                        Why did you decide that you are not indignant?
                        In Soviet times, you trained thousands of Arab terrorists on your territory. It is known that the killed terrorists in the 80s in Lebanon found evidence of the successful completion of the Shot courses, signed by General Dragunsky.

                        Indian films seen enough?
                        Your Chrysanthemums must first get to the battlefield. Find out in more detail what happened to the Hezbollah tanks and rocket launchers in 2006. None of them reached the battlefield. All were destroyed by drones.

                        Is this the same "successful" "war-operation" of 2006? As a result of which there were all sorts of commissions to investigate the actions of persons responsible for the hostilities?
                        Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah have your weapon

                        After the "successes" of 2006, the Israeli leadership realized that it was necessary to negotiate with Moscow in order for the Kremlin to exert more pressure on Damascus and Iran, in order to prevent new Russian weapons from getting to third parties.
                      50. +1
                        14 July 2019 06: 35
                        Quote: lucul
                        Because against your infantry, nobody prepares first-class mercenaries, with the most modern weapons, as against the Russians.
                        That's the whole answer.

                        How not prepared? And what did your "advisers" do? What were the representatives of "national liberation movements" taught in the Moscow region in the KGB preparatory camps?

                        Quote: lucul
                        As soon as the new Russian anti-tank weapons are delivered to the bogeyles, then your infantry will also start riding armor. But Russian, terrorists do not supply weapons, unlike some ....

                        That is, the Kornet ATGMs supplied to the barmaley that have no taxes in the world are not "the latest Russian anti-tank weapons"? Is there something newer?

                        Quote: Gritsa
                        Quote: lucul
                        As soon as the new Russian anti-tank weapons are delivered to the bogeyles, then your infantry will also start riding armor.

                        If Russia supplied Hamas or Hezbollah in a huge amount of modern anti-tank missile systems and grenade launchers, the Israeli army would not have traveled to its neighbors "on a visit" either on armor or for armor. She just wouldn't drive at all for safety reasons. Going "on a visit" without an invitation would stop very quickly.

                        I understand the key word "in huge quantities" since the modern anti-tank systems and grenade launchers supplied today have not changed the behavior of the Israelis?
                      51. 0
                        14 July 2019 22: 19
                        "How could you not prepare? And what did your" advisers "do? What did the representatives of" national liberation movements "learn in the Moscow region in the KGB preparatory camps?"
                        Well, if we are talking about, so to speak, specifics, you need to give correct examples))))) In the Moscow region, even in Soviet times, there was enough sense not to teach any barmaley. And yes, when your guys (and ladies)))) felled "Arab terrorists" in Europe, they somehow didn't bother with extraneous corpses. Although, as professionals, they did not overwhelm the surroundings at all. But they weren't particularly embarrassed either. Just as they were not embarrassed when they were tying weapons in the same Europe ...
                      52. +6
                        11 July 2019 15: 34
                        Quote: professor
                        The Mass Tomb of the Infantry

                        And if in your M-113 lupanut of ATGM or grenade launcher (where for your defended armor sit bright representatives of the IDF, then what it will turn into? Or a piece of burnt iron with smells of burnt meat will not resemble a mass grave? Oh yes ... I understand - the Jewish grave does not look that way ...
                      53. +5
                        11 July 2019 17: 17
                        Quote: professor
                        I know the answer.
                        The mass grave of infantry she is.
                        Oleg, let's separate the "wheat from the chaff". In any case, even the heaviest armored personnel carrier is not a bomb shelter, you have to get out for a fight, but you will not get out, even the most thick-skinned "Mouse" will become this "mass grave", someone with infantry in the belly next to or in front of the tanks. Everything is on fire, everything can be knocked out, including the "Merkava" or "Namer". Secondly, the area of ​​Israel is half the size of the Moscow region, there is no abundance of water barriers and swampy areas. Finally, Hamas is not a full-fledged army, much less an alliance of armies like NATO. Your war is police operations, for which the equipment corresponding to the tasks and geography of the region has been created, plus "protection", support from the United States.
                        In Afghanistan and the same Chechnya, our equipment was not used for its military purpose, our infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers were not intended to counteract the militants who used partisan tactics, attacking columns from ambushes. Sitting on the armor made it possible to get more chances when a bomb was detonated, to dismount quickly, especially when attacking. when the fire was on mountain serpentine from the mountains, actually into the roof. In the war with a full-fledged army, this whole problem with mines and land mines on the rear roads is no longer relevant, and then there will be all the advantages of the universal and maneuverable machines of the Soviet tank school.
                        There is now equipment that is suitable for police, anti-terrorist operations, such as "double-deck" armored personnel carriers "Boomerang", or the mastodon BMP T-15. For a real war, I personally would not want to ride them.
                      54. +2
                        12 July 2019 03: 02
                        Quote: Per se.
                        In Afghanistan and the same Chechnya, our equipment was not used for its military purpose, our infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers were not intended to counteract the militants who used partisan tactics, attacking columns from ambushes

                        Quote: Per se.
                        In the war with a full-fledged army, this whole problem with mines and land mines on the rear roads is no longer relevant, and then there will be all the advantages of the universal and maneuverable machines of the Soviet tank school.

                        Sorry, but this is nonsense, because even in WWII there were partisans and DRGs, and even today with the advent of more efficient delivery vehicles (UAVs \ VTAs \ SMPLs) and the insanely powerful development of infantry weapons (PTR \ RPG \ ATGM \ Drones \ ... ) the quantity, quality and variety of guerrilla-sabotage combat techniques to say about "we did not pass this, we were not asked" is simply stupid and shows the level of professional unsuitability ...
                        Quote: Per se.
                        Sitting on the armor made it possible to get more chances when a bomb was detonated, to dismount quickly, especially when attacking. when the fire was on mountain serpentine from the mountains, actually into the roof.

                        The point here is not in the roofs, and not in imprisonment, but in the banal "convenience" of transport armored combat vehicles, with which the Soviet school has huge problems.
                      55. +1
                        12 July 2019 07: 57
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        Sorry but this is nonsense, because even in WWII there were partisans and DRG
                        What are you talking about, partisans and sabotage groups will make ambushes during a war, a clash of two armies? It was about the rear columns, the tactics of the militants. In the comment above, Alekseev (Alexey) sounded what I completely agree with, you need a different technique for different tasks. I will add that it is necessary to distinguish between anti-terrorist operations, the fight against militants and the defense of your country in the event of a major war. The Israelis did everything right for themselves, the IDF got what they needed. For our army and the defense of Russia, it is also necessary to correctly assess the threats and not go to extremes, rushing to do, as in South Africa, Syria, Israel, etc. We need for Russia, with the entire spectrum of our specifics, both in terms of a potential enemy and taking into account the geographical environment in which we will have to fight. And, "the problem with the Soviet tank school" is only that the equipment created for other tasks began to be used for other purposes. For the rest, we are still alive only thanks to the Soviet reserve of strength, the talent of the designers, who laid down a huge potential for defense.
                      56. 0
                        12 July 2019 21: 36
                        Quote: Per se.
                        What are you about

                        If you do not understand what I wrote, then it is better to smoke and re-read my post a couple of times, if it does not help, then repeat it. If this does not help, then think and compare the guerrilla combat techniques used during the Second World War and today and think "what" prevents the use of such techniques in the Third World War, after which it is possible to write this "what" here and then maybe I and those around me will have a desire chew and put your logical error on a silver platter.
                      57. 0
                        13 July 2019 09: 52
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                        maybe I and others will have a desire to chew and give your logical error on a saucer.
                        There is no need for your "pirate" favors, and it would be better if you delve into the meaning. Here, Afghanistan, there is a Soviet military convoy, in which, in addition to armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles, onboard vehicles, tank trucks, a medical vehicle, a truck crane ... Mountain streamer. Offer to transport everything in armored vans, maybe immediately in an armored train? I spoke about the specifics of the time when I had to fight in Afghanistan, in specific geographic conditions, on equipment intended for another war. I said in my comments to this article, and that on a single tank base it seems reasonable to use a bunch of BMPTs and heavy armored personnel carriers, as a tandem version of a heavy BMP. But why delve into, as a result, you about Erema, you about Thomas ... I have enough life experience, and your, excuse me, "fountains" of self-importance to me unnecessarily. You cannot speak normally, all the best, Seryozha.
                      58. -1
                        13 July 2019 18: 21
                        Per se. (Sergei) It is not necessary to consider yourself smarter than those around you, because in this case it was you who started the conversation in the style of Erema and Thomas. You trite consider yourself smarter than those around you, and your brain, when reading my post, stupidly substitutes thirst-nonsense (information garbage) instead of text processing. In this case, such informational thirsty delirium is a bunch of false statements tied to the phrase "on equipment intended for another war" To which I pointed out to you that:
                        1) even during WWII there were partisans and DRG
                        2) as a result of the development of technologies, new methods of work of partisans and DRGs appeared
                        3) in any modern war, including the third world war with the use of nuclear weapons, guerrillas and DRGs will be used as actively as possible (we are talking about battle techniques, not units)
                        From these three statements it follows that any whining in the style of "we were not ready for this", "our technique for another war" is a manifestation of professional unsuitability and lack of understanding of the basics of combat. Actually what I said above.
                      59. +7
                        11 July 2019 17: 30
                        Enough courage to drive them under armor?

                        I constantly drove there my own. Although the cars were even less protected.

                        Quote: professor
                        Yep On the armor sat because the armor is more dangerous for life? Kamikaze however.

                        Not when there was a real danger, they didn't get out of the armor. Not exactly they are fools.

                        Quote: professor
                        The mass grave of infantry she is.

                        Practice has shown that your M113 should be called "Mass Infantry Grave", right?

                        Quote: professor
                        No one was limited to 100 interov. their production continues.

                        Will there be 110? If the Namers were really that good, there would be no question of any wheeled infantry fighting vehicles.
                      60. +1
                        11 July 2019 18: 04
                        So their soldier From my experience I will say, I like the BMP much more, when I hit the right-hand side, the landing was a little dumbfounded, the left - the mechanic suffers and there is a slight contusion in all, the BMP usually burns. The armored personnel carrier is more tenacious from this angle, it does not catch fire, and crawls further laughing
                        And if the landmine is controlled, or there is a counter-bottom there even to the vaunted Inumer cranes crying
                        If a competent commander, then great machines for their range of tasks, and even more universal than Israeli. If we imagine the battle of BMP with Onemer one on one in the field, then the measure of the skull clearly laughing
                      61. +4
                        11 July 2019 18: 28
                        Quote: Demon_is_ada
                        BMP usually burns.

                        I have never seen it. So they, of course, burn more actively. Without any influence of the enemy. Even that "beha" that burned down in Komsomolskoye, which they liked so much to photograph, burned down after the cleaning of the village and burned down without permission
                        As for the fire after the explosion ... did not come across.

                        In general, in our regiment, only one case was a collision with a push. And the mechanic himself is to blame, well, who is "in the area" rolling through the puddles? The rest ... it all started with the OZMka shot still near Bamut. Then a lot of people were killed, even a sniper of some kind, a Hero of Russia with the rank of lieutenant colonel. Then, as far as I remember, two IEDs from shells "in the bushes", most likely, the sappers missed.
                        There was also a Babay controlled land mine in Pionerskoye, which was rammed under the asphalt long before the war, at the stage of road repair. But the place was chosen unsuccessfully for the "car" - there the gas station was very "right", therefore, it was first "just in case" fumigated with artillery, and then the tanks fired back there. And then they found a wire line, and already along it they found a large land mine almost under a ton.
                      62. +3
                        11 July 2019 19: 03
                        Quote: Spade
                        So they, of course, are burning more actively. Without any impact of the enemy.

                        At you mehvody flies caught badly laughing There in the engine compartment, with intensive use, usually 2-3 cm of a solar-oil liquid, gaskets flow, fuel tubes and you can’t do anything through internal removable partitions, it’s just not convenient ... here hi
                      63. +2
                        11 July 2019 19: 14
                        Quote: Demon_is_ada
                        At you mehvody flies caught badly

                        They have it .... However, the situation is quite expected, the infantry even the VMG (one reinforced battalion for a motorized rifle regiment, in the five-hour readiness for action on the administrative border of Ossetia and Ingushetia) practically did not conduct driving lessons. They, damn it, when before the war they drove cars to Tarskoye, they were ready to train at the training ground, three were burned on the way. And one more cancer was put on a ramp- they were trained to load, initially they were supposed to be sent to Dagestan.
                        So it was pretty sad. After a couple of months, almost none of them started on their own. Battery died, "air" was initially at death
                      64. +2
                        11 July 2019 21: 53
                        Quote: professor
                        I know the answer.
                        The mass grave of infantry she is.

                        Profesor - why are you trying to bite the country once again, to which you owe everything, even your existence? BMP was created to support a large-scale tank attack. Bradley, and even Puma fit exactly into this concept of combat. ALL THIS YOU KNOW. Heavy infantry fighting vehicles have a narrow specialization of infantry delivery in urban combat. In the field your intentions will burn no worse than BMP - 1-2-3. Even better, because they are much slower, and the pale of one rocket can kill more Jews than in a carrot.
                        And about the armor \ on the armor - the presence of TOU-2 from the Paless is not observed. And in Syria in only from someone else's space bullet. wink Poor how to enter the Turks?
                      65. +1
                        11 July 2019 14: 18
                        Lopatov, good !
                        [/ quote] professor
                        Today, 07: 27
                        -1
                        Quote: sen
                        Something I have never seen mention of the successful fire of infantry from my weapon through the embrasure BM.

                        Because in the light of the weak security of the Mass Grave of the Infantry, the infantry chose to move ON the armor [quote]


                        "it happened so: born to crawl, explains to everyone how to fly" (c)
            2. +3
              11 July 2019 23: 41
              Quote: Spade
              Why are they not being ridden on "ON armor", are they so much better protected than Russian BMP / BTR?


              My version is that the difference lies in the field of logistics. Perhaps the fact is that an Israeli soldier, shooting from a machine gun at the Palestinians, knows that anyway, at twelve o'clock he will be taken to the dining room, there will be tables and benches under the air conditioner, and a tray with delicious hot food will be in front of him. Well, as a last resort, some uncle will bring a pot of food to the front. He does not know how, by what chain, through what warehouses and by what transport this food will suddenly appear in front of him.

              In contrast to him, a Russian soldier knows that he will eat in the field only what he has in his pocket. Or zanykano in a secluded corner of his BMP or BTR. If the field will be a week, then it is necessary to pre-stock up on the whole week. The rear service is always for some reason to deliver him food can not, according to a fairy tale, a Russian soldier cooks porridge from an ax. He warms up the soup from the bag only on that spirit-stove or on the stove, which he again zanykat in the BMP, where else to put it. A sleeping bag and a blanket, if it's cold. Or plastic water bottles are also not the last thing. Again, the company commander uses part of the volume for company weapons and super-standard ammunition. The company commander puts extra berets in any corner. Well, there are mandatory sets of chemical protection, tents, any tarpaulin, masseti, any other necessary household junk. As a result, the BMP is almost clogged under the roof. And the soldier is very uncomfortably pressed to be there. It is impossible to quickly jump out, if befallen. It is impossible to climb quickly if shot at.

              For comparison. I don't know the Israeli structure, but the American company commander has his own personal infantry fighting vehicle, in which he drives alone (i.e. three crew of an infantry fighting vehicle and one company commander at the landing site), and which, if desired, can be filled with various supplies necessary for the company. His senior officer has one more personal infantry fighting vehicle, in which you can also store some kind of staff property, maps there, pencils, tablets, documents necessary for managing a company. The company sergeant has a separate empty M-113 with extra boots, uniforms and everything else. So this is not enough - they still have two empty Hummers with drivers. One is a company commander, the other is a senior officer. Anything that didn't fit into two BMPs and an armored personnel carrier can be put into the bodies of the "Humvees". And if something is urgently needed, then this carrier can be driven to the rear to the warehouse. And this is not enough, except for the "Hummers" the company management is supposed to have a small truck (two-axle) and a tank truck with drinking water. In addition, in the battalion headquarters company, there is a support platoon, in addition to dry cargo and tank sections, a field kitchen and something else, there are four forward supply departments, each tied to its own company. The compartment has three three-axle trucks and three three-axle tankers. And the general staff of the headquarters company is 300 people, another 45 people from the headquarters, about a hundred different kinds of cars. It follows that an American in an infantry fighting vehicle, apart from the horns from the M-16, which occupy a strictly defined place on the shelf, does not need to store anything, there is a lot of free space, so they sit inside all the time.
              1. +3
                12 July 2019 00: 20
                Oh yeah. During the war, the tank marines who rode the Shermans appreciated its size. It is so spacious inside, it was stuffed with all the necessary junk, cartridges and stew, and was ready for autonomous raids. wink
      2. +1
        11 July 2019 10: 35
        Quote: professor
        Because in the light of the weak security of the Mass Grave of the Infantry

        Exceptionally because of mines, land mines or airborne directional explosions, professor, not from weak security.
        1. +2
          11 July 2019 10: 53
          Quote: goose
          Quote: professor
          Because in the light of the weak security of the Mass Grave of the Infantry

          Exceptionally because of mines, land mines or airborne directional explosions, professor, not from weak security.

          Not from poor security from mines, land mines or airborne directional explosions, RPGs?
          1. +7
            11 July 2019 11: 16
            Quote: professor
            Not from poor security from mines, land mines or airborne directional explosions, RPGs?

            8)))))
            TBTR is not much better protected from mines in the roadbed. Well, the rest, all these roadside bombs, anti-side mines, RPGs, are guaranteed to destroy those who stick out on the armor. Add the danger of being hit by shrapnel, add the danger of being hit by a shooter, add the ability to fly off the armor during sudden braking, turning, accelerating, when driving through holes and other irregularities ..... think a little and still stop talking nonsense about "sitting on armor because of low security "
            1. -1
              11 July 2019 12: 40
              As for land mines in the roadway - while patrolling two TBTR along the Rafah border with Egypt, a land mine exploded under one of the armored personnel carriers (the first). The guys are a little deaf, and temporarily, in the short term - except for this there were no problems. But then with a half-dead bomb somewhere in Gaza, the Merkavu was blown up.
              1. +8
                11 July 2019 12: 51
                Quote: Krasnodar
                As for land mines in the roadway - while patrolling two TBTR along the Rafah border with Egypt, a land mine exploded under one of the armored personnel carriers (the first). The guys are a little deaf, and temporarily, in the short term - except for this there were no problems.

                Half a kilo of nitre is different and does not work.
                But the usual 122-mm projectile under the roadway is guaranteed to create problems and TBTR and the tank.
                1. 0
                  11 July 2019 12: 59
                  Maybe. Did not come across.
            2. +2
              11 July 2019 13: 06
              Quote: Spade
              TBTR is not much better protected from mines in the roadway.

              Yes Yes. The V-shaped bottom of the tank is not better protected from mines in the roadbed than the flat bottom of the Brave Graves of the Infantry. So we write.

              By the way, so far not a single one dying from anti-tank mines.

              Quote: Spade
              Well, the rest, all these roadside bombs, anti-side mines, RPGs, are guaranteed to destroy those who stick out on the armor. Add the danger of being hit by shrapnel, add the danger of being hit by a shooter, add the ability to fly off the armor during sudden braking, turning, accelerating, when driving through holes and other irregularities ..... think a little and stop talking nonsense about "sitting on armor because of low security "

              That is exactly why our soldiers do not ride armor. I rest my case. hi
              1. +5
                11 July 2019 13: 25
                Quote: professor
                That is exactly why our soldiers do not ride armor. I rest my case

                And on the Russian website telling tales about the fact that, sitting down on armor, you can increase your security?
                Why don't you tell your friends? Let them ride on the Namer's armor, because it will be much safer
                1. +1
                  11 July 2019 13: 27
                  Quote: Spade
                  And on the Russian website telling tales about the fact that, sitting down on armor, you can increase your security?

                  Do not invent. I did not say that. It's not me, but your fighters believe that your armor is safer than behind it.

                  Quote: Spade
                  Why don't you tell your friends? Let them ride on the Namer's armor, because it will be much safer

                  Because Namer will reliably protect the fighters with their armor.
                  1. +4
                    11 July 2019 13: 36
                    Quote: professor
                    Do not invent. I did not say that.

                    You said exactly that.
                    "Because in light of the weak protection of the Mass Grave of the Infantry, the infantry preferred to move ON armor."

                    Quote: professor
                    Because Namer will reliably protect the fighters with their armor.

                    Well, on the armor, it is much more secure, because you claimed that. And referring to the experience of our own infantry.
                    1. -1
                      11 July 2019 13: 52
                      Quote: Spade
                      Quote: professor
                      Do not invent. I did not say that.

                      You said exactly that.
                      "Because in light of the weak protection of the Mass Grave of the Infantry, the infantry preferred to move ON armor."

                      I did not write that "sitting on the armor you can increase your protection", I wrote that "in light of the weak protection of the Mass Grave of the Infantry, the infantry preferred to move ON the armor." Like it or not, but your infantry believes that it is safer on armor in the light of the weak security of the Mass Grave of the Infantry. Try to convince them.
                      1. +5
                        11 July 2019 17: 06
                        Quote: professor
                        Like it or not, your infantry counts

                        Our infantry believes that riding on armor is, firstly, more comfortable, and secondly, more fun.
                        And the excuse "it's safer" is intended for bosses and Internet fools.
                        In really dangerous situations, this infantry climbs inside the "landing", which I personally observed many times. The same is true in bad weather.

                        So stop spreading this dregs. If you want, please prove to the ISRAELI soldiers the "safety" of sitting on the armor.
                    2. +3
                      11 July 2019 14: 43
                      Take it easy. laughing
                      The professor is just jealous. With BMPs on horseback, you can conquer Jerusalem, and their Namers and other armored coffers can do nothing more than frighten the Palestinians in Gaza.
                      1. 0
                        17 July 2019 03: 51
                        Will you go to conquer?)
            3. +2
              11 July 2019 18: 12
              One MONKA enough to blow off the armor of all along with the instruments. Comrades simply fantasize, on armor perhaps somewhere deep in the rear and even if the mechanic is normal, but I would not risk the same, dozing off under the rink.
        2. +5
          11 July 2019 11: 06
          Quote: goose
          Exceptionally because of mines, land mines or airborne directional explosions, professor, not from weak security.

          Rather, due to the fact that the commanding fathers can not drive fighters under armor. The problem, in fact, in two things, in comfort and human curiosity.
          Talk about "security" is just a common excuse. In fact, riding on armor is much, much more dangerous.
          1. +1
            11 July 2019 20: 51
            Situational awareness. Information hunger gives rise to nervosa and claustrophobia. When cool with your head at 365 degrees a lot calmer. And when you can jump right away, and not to wait until the one closest to the door deigns to jump out, is also much calmer.
        3. +4
          11 July 2019 13: 16
          From empty to empty
      3. 0
        14 July 2019 16: 58
        Comrade Israeli "infantry preferred to move ON armor" when the column was moving through mountainous / rugged terrain and gorges and because of mine danger (at that time there were no V-shaped bottoms) and because of the possibility of countering the small DRG.
        This has nothing to do with modern combined arms combat.
        1. 0
          14 July 2019 21: 08
          Quote: Protos
          "the infantry preferred to move ON armor" ... and because of the mine danger

          This is a delusion, a very dangerous delusion.
          1) When undermining a mine \ IED that is inside the BTR-82 and that on the armor of the BTR-82, the spinal injuries are the same
          2) The probability of death from a fragmentation mine is much greater than from a strike IED
          3) The probability of death from a bullet is much higher than from VCA
          So it's not about mines at all. And it's not even "visibility". The point is trite in the convenience of the trip (stove + air conditioner + oxygen) and the convenience of landing "in combat". What are the huge problems with the armored personnel carrier \ BMP of the Soviet school.
    3. +4
      11 July 2019 12: 12
      Quote: sen
      Something I have never seen mention of the successful fire of infantry from my weapon through the embrasure BM.

      Always forget what this car is made for. It is created for the battlefield with the use of nuclear weapons. By firing through embrasures, the infantrymen were supposed to suppress the surviving enemy firing points after the use of nuclear weapons, without going outside. Such was the concept and in the framework of this concept the value of embrasures in the BMP is justified. At the same time, such a fire was not intended to be aimed — this was supposed to be firing at suppression. Therefore, from the embrasure there is nothing particularly visible. In the context of modern local conflicts such embrasures have no value. The terrain is not visible, aimed fire is not possible ...
  4. +1
    11 July 2019 05: 35
    as I think, two options or a heavy infantry unit, or how its replacement is heavy btr + heavy infantry support vehicle
    1. +1
      11 July 2019 22: 52
      Quote: Graz
      as I think, two options or a heavy infantry unit, or how its replacement is heavy btr + heavy infantry support vehicle

      And a wet black earth or even a swampy lawn under your feet. :) During Soviet times, in some areas, MT-LB was used as the BMP. And not because the iron was not enough .. But because it is better to have such light armor with you than the cool Merkava but stuck far behind, immediately after moving away from the concrete.
  5. +6
    11 July 2019 06: 05
    Melee (urban) combat is the most undesirable tactic for any armored vehicle, especially without infantry on or near armor. This was shown by the Great Patriotic War, Afghanistan, Chechnya, etc. Of course, for modern portable anti-tank weapons, three kilometers is not a problem, but in this case the crew has time for protection, albeit little. As for Israel, it does not conduct hostilities against the regular modern army, aviation is not used against Israeli equipment, and the TsKHAL is not particularly eager to enter the city limits even on the Merkava.
    1. +9
      11 July 2019 11: 07
      "and the TsKHAL is not particularly eager to enter the city limits, even on the" Merkava "."
      ----
      All the IDF fighting last 20 years pass in areas of dense development: an endless series of cities and villages with houses from 1 to 4 floors. Both Merkava and Namera enter the streets of cities where they are fired (including from RPGs) from gates, windows and roofs. Without a full round-trip booking (including the top of the combat vehicle) there is nothing to do in armored vehicles in the cities.
      1. -1
        11 July 2019 12: 42
        Tanks and intentions enter there only after stripping by infantry, sort of.
        1. +3
          11 July 2019 12: 56
          First, tanks and bulldozers enter, intersections occupy, then armored personnel carriers enter, then armored troop-carriers rush soldiers and soldiers begin to occupy pivot points, climb roofs under the cover of tank fire.
          1. 0
            11 July 2019 13: 01
            Never participated in this.
          2. 0
            11 July 2019 22: 05
            Quote: voyaka uh
            First comes tanks and bulldozers

            I would look like bulldozers enter Aleppo ......
          3. +2
            12 July 2019 08: 26
            Above along the branch, one of yours poured out all the painful Jewish people about mass deliveries of modern anti-tank weapons to Russia bearded in slippers and preparing them on our territory. I would see how in this case tanks and bulldozers will occupy intersections ...
      2. -1
        11 July 2019 22: 04
        Quote: voyaka uh
        All the IDF fighting last 20 years pass in areas of dense development: an endless series of cities and villages with houses from 1 to 4 floors.

        Yes, you ?? belay And the tank-hazardous tillage is armed with the latest anti-tank weapons? What did you come back during the last rendezvous in Lebanon, you didn’t have a hard time, did you? wink
  6. +1
    11 July 2019 06: 33
    As they appeared in Israel, they acted there practically using captured armor equipment, the world's first heavily armored armored personnel carriers "Akhzarit", these are converted T-55 tanks. In fact, by and large, all heavy armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles are attempts to use the existing reserve of tank corps. It must be understood that this is not a panacea, when more protected types of tanks are destroyed, but the task of reducing infantry losses from fire at times from close range and protecting them from cumulative ammunition used due to the possibility of installing active types of protection. Everything that was previously planned to be used in an open field in open battle, face to face. They are needed, but not in global quantities. Let's paraphrase the old saying, one tank in the field is not a warrior.
  7. 0
    11 July 2019 06: 44
    all mixed up people horses ... BTR vehicles. His task is to transport infantry to a given point. they basically have nothing to do under heavy fire. it is limited somewhere to slip through and then this more heavy BMP must deal.
    1. +2
      11 July 2019 10: 51
      Quote: carstorm 11
      BTR
      BMP

      And what is the fundamental difference between them?
      1. +4
        11 July 2019 11: 34
        Quote: Avis-bis
        And what is the fundamental difference between them?

        Everything goes to the fact that no.
        BTR in the classical form will simply cease to exist.
        1. 0
          11 July 2019 11: 58
          Quote: Spade
          Quote: Avis-bis
          And what is the fundamental difference between them?

          Everything goes to the fact that no.
          BTR in the classical form will simply cease to exist.

          Yes, the difference from the very beginning was near zero:





          © "Military encyclopedic dictionary", 1986.
          Well, perhaps the Soviet armored personnel carriers received a cannon later than the BMP, which had a cannon from the very beginning. That's the whole "difference".

          And the "classic armored personnel carrier" probably ceased to exist during WWII. :)
          1. +1
            11 July 2019 14: 16
            And the "classic armored personnel carrier" probably ceased to exist during WWII. :)

            Or revived in the form of MRAP
      2. +5
        11 July 2019 12: 27
        Quote: Avis-bis
        And what is the fundamental difference between them?

        Quote from the CFE Treaty:
        The term "armored personnel carrier" means an armored combat vehicle,
        designed and equipped for transporting combat
        infantry, which is usually armed with a built-in or
        Nominally mounted weapons of caliber less than 20 millimeters.

        OR
        The term "infantry fighting vehicle" means an armored combat vehicle
        machine designed and equipped mainly for
        transporting an infantry combat unit which is usually
        provides the landing party the opportunity to fire from the car under
        cover armor and which is armed with built-in or nominally
        a caliber set by the gun of at least 20 millimeters and sometimes
        launcher anti-tank missiles. Infantry fighting vehicles
        serve as the main weapon system of motorized infantry tank or
        mechanized, or motorized formations and parts
        ground forces.

        According to the contract, for example, our BTR-80A with the 30-mm gun, this is the BMP :-)
        And the confusion is due to the fact that the APC was originally an armored transporter. It is not designed to fight and support infantry in combat. Its purpose was to transport infantry so that it would die less on marches in the frontal zone from artillery and aviation. Or from a stray bullet. Well, so that people do not get tired on foot. But in practice, armored personnel carriers almost immediately began to thrust into battle. There is equipment, there is at least a machine gun on it, there is armor - which is not a mini-tank. And away we go. The essence of the term APC floated, but the name remained. The last BTR in its original meaning was probably the BTR-60 with a roof, but without a tower with KPVT. Well, or MT-LB, which seems to be a tractor, but in the original sense corresponds to all the norms of the concept of an "armored personnel carrier" - no one goes into battle, this is a purely transport cart with an ordinary machine gun "just in case" for driving in the rear areas.
        But the BMP was originally planned as a combat machine - a mobile trench with embrasures for infantry and a fire support gun. But the essence of the term BMP also floated, when it became clear that they were little use for embrasures, they were simply removed. As a result, the BMP turned into a heavily armed BTR. And now all these types have merged into a single ecstasy - a universal machine for combat, and for transportation, without embrasures and, as a rule, with an automatic gun.
        1. 0
          11 July 2019 12: 38
          Quote: Alex_59
          + + + + +

          I quoted and commented on all this above. According to post-war Soviet terminology, there is no difference between armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles. And how did the "classic armored personnel carriers" (which disappeared during WWII) began, I also wrote.
    2. +2
      11 July 2019 11: 49
      Unfortunately, the current wars are such that even bringing the infantry to the battlefield, without being hit by enemy fire, most likely will not work. And this artillery fire is becoming more accurate and accurate due to adjustable projectiles and adjustments from drones. Here and the night does not save. And the fate of the company commander, Task Force 92-brigade APU, which on the night of 27 August 28 lost all its 12 BTR-70 under gunfire (in my, 7 burned, 5 captured by the enemy, or vice versa), while kilometers 20 from enemy positions, evidence of that.
  8. 0
    11 July 2019 06: 49
    Or the reception of a tactical drape, when the enemy, when the TBTR is approaching its positions, represents a hasty retreat, and when the motorized infantry got out and their boxes for trophies and prisoners, the fired and disguised firing points strike them. Duc, and against the "artillery preparation" such a "technique" exists! (When, at the beginning of the artillery preparation, the opponents "molt" into the depths of the defense, and then they come back "quietly" and arrange the coming "surprise"!) But to a large extent, I agree with the Author! The development and arsenal of anti-tank weapons are too great! If there was such a period that they started talking about the "death of tanks", then is it worth relying on heavy armored personnel carriers? But the strengthening of the armor protection of armored personnel carriers, BMP-shek is necessary! (In order not to "catch" each RPG-shnuyu grenade with a "scarce" counter-ammunition KAZ ...) Therefore, the most appropriate option: medium (!) BMP (armored personnel carriers) equipped with KAZ systems ...
    1. 0
      11 July 2019 07: 43
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      Therefore, the most expedient option: medium (!) BMP (BTR), equipped with KAZ systems ...

      Against a concrete, powerful MINA, the defense simply did not come up .... of course, delivered at the right time, in the right place!
      1. +1
        11 July 2019 10: 31
        Quote: rocket757
        Against a specific, powerful MINES, the defense simply did not come up ....

        "There is no perfection in the world!" - said the Fox when he learned that there are no hunters on this planet, but there are no chickens either ... (Antoine de Saint-Exupery). When you tried to create an invulnerable machine, what happened? A 1000-ton colossus that could move "step to the left, step to the right" on a level platform ... Or defend against AIDS: wrap it with electrical tape, pour it over with epoxy, and barbed wire on top ... and no "sexual contact"! wink
        PS Well ... some mine protection exists! You can hang a portable electromagnetic trawl ... what
        1. +1
          11 July 2019 11: 31
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          You can hang a portable electromagnetic trawl ...

          No fools .... without a metal fugue with a remote fuse, by wire !!! There is no way, fast, mechanized, neutralize ... only four-legged friends !!! And the power can be such, uh-xx!
          1. -1
            11 July 2019 13: 24
            Against mines and IEDs, there is a georadar installed on an electro-quadrocopter powered by an armored engineering vehicle. Finds any mines / IEDs at speeds up to 30 km / h.

            SAZ / KAZ works against onboard mines with 100% efficiency. The only exception is the impact core, but it is used mainly in urban development due to its short range (~ 25 meters).

            To combat shock cores, there is a proven shamanistic way of moving armored vehicles in urban areas - laying zones of continuous destruction at least 50 meters wide using artillery and "Serpents of the Gorynichy".
            1. +2
              11 July 2019 14: 13
              If all the proven methods worked ... there would not be so many losses during the storming of urban buildings. When all can not be razed to the ground.
              1. -2
                11 July 2019 14: 39
                So far, of the georadars and SAZ / KAZ, it is known only about the use of the latter on Merkavas with positive statistics of intercepting subsonic ammunition (ATGM and rocket-propelled grenades). The savings on matches (the indicated means of protection) lead to the loss of armored vehicles.

                It is not required to compare all the buildings in settlements with the ground - it is enough to level the houses along the streets leading to the center of the city, to the distance of the strike cores.
                1. +1
                  11 July 2019 14: 53
                  Mine clearance is such an IMPORTANT, but DANGEROUS "job" !!! that I am for ANY ROBOTIZATION, AUTOMATION of the process .... I don’t like mines, for some time now, I don’t like them, and I don’t hear in one ear at the same time!
                  1. 0
                    11 July 2019 15: 01
                    Demining: it's easy and simple - with the "Serpent Gorynich" at hand bully
                    1. 0
                      11 July 2019 15: 10
                      Yes, yes, especially when palm trees and other baobauins are all around.
                      1. -2
                        11 July 2019 15: 22
                        As far as I understand, the army team needs only safe from mines for the passage of armored vehicles and vehicles. To create security zones in the jungle along the edges of the tracks to the depth of the shot from an anti-tank grenade launcher there is napalm.
                      2. 0
                        11 July 2019 17: 00
                        Everything is good in theory, but when is it necessary to repel an attack from a sabotage group and not natives of baboons and from where there is no route? Everything becomes much more complicated .... by the way, you also do not have heavy equipment! But there is an anti-aircraft gun !!! not even one .... and do not have to unsubscribe for ammunition, if that!
                      3. -2
                        11 July 2019 17: 35
                        A sabotage group against heavy armored personnel carriers equipped with SAZ / KAZ is not able to do anything - except for laying mines on the way, but it is stopped by the engineering support of the armored personnel carrier using geo-radar, burning glades in woodlands and destruction of buildings in settlements along the route ( see above).

                        The absence of the command of an armored troop detachment of the opportunity to receive support from aviation in terms of napalm or from artillery in terms of the destruction of buildings is a question for the higher command.
                      4. +1
                        11 July 2019 18: 29
                        Is it from the Amerska Methodics of the Vietnam War?
                        It is not funny, that is why sho know how it happened in reality.
                        As it should be now, it is to the present army ...........
    2. +2
      11 July 2019 08: 19
      Duc, and against the "artillery preparation" such a "technique" exists! (When at the beginning of the artillery barrage, the opponents "shed" into the depths of the defense, and then returned "quietly" and arranged a "surprise" for the coming!)
      For parrying such surprises, the tactic of an offensive immediately behind the firing shaft was invented. But it is more suitable for field combat, rather than maintaining a low-intensity database in dense urban areas. And without prior evacuation of the civilian population.
      Imagine what will remain of the city, if you arrange a meat grinder in the style of the Stalingrad battles, the storming of Seelow Heights or Koenigsberg.
      In addition, such an attack requires a very experienced team of units of all incoming deliveries. And perfect interaction. Otherwise, their artillery will grind as well as the enemy.
    3. +4
      11 July 2019 09: 03
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      Duc, and against the "artillery preparation" such a "technique" exists! (When at the beginning of the artillery barrage, the opponents "shed" into the depths of the defense, and then returned "quietly" and arranged a "surprise" for the coming!)

      They won't have time. Artillery transfers fire in depth as its subunits reach the line of safe removal. That is, they will have to "return quietly" under the fire of small arms
      1. 0
        11 July 2019 10: 43
        Well, here ... as in the "fight of the sword and shield"! The tactics of the offensive following the "barrage" ... the transfer of the "tudy-syuda" artillery fire changed after the initial application (!) ... and this was caused by countermeasures developed by the defending enemy. In principle, it may not have changed; but ... "nuances"!
  9. +2
    11 July 2019 06: 50
    TBTR is not a mass car. For some assault operations or control of the territory with a reduced landing force, it is likely to be better suited than the usual BTR. Again, it should be noted plyavlenie KAZ and good orientation of the crew with the help of optics and all sorts of systems.
  10. 0
    11 July 2019 07: 04
    The TBTR concept appeared due to the fact that the irregular forces, which began to face lightly armored infantry delivery vehicles to the line of defense / attack, acquired means of destruction that went beyond the scope of small arms (large-caliber rifle, ATGM, mines), increased firepower and distance defeat of such funds. Passive means and DZ / KAZ reduce the likelihood of defeat, but the guerrilla tactics described by the author of the material are still relevant (material about Togu, which the Israelis put on the M113). Therefore, TBTR - strengthening the protection of the landing force and infantry, its pluses, minuses and tactics of use. As for the tasks being performed, they remained the same - the delivery of drugs in conditions of probable fire resistance. Let us recall the history of the appearance, the progenitor of the armored personnel carrier was called precisely "transport tank" (or tank-transporter).
    1. -1
      11 July 2019 08: 22
      The concept of TBTR appeared due to the fact that irregular forces, which lightly armored infantry vehicles to the line of defense / attack began to encounter, acquired means of destruction that went beyond the scope of small arms (heavy rifles, anti-tank systems, mines), increased firepower and distance lesions of such funds.
      In addition to what you said, the prevalence of partisan tactics without an unequivocal front line.
  11. +6
    11 July 2019 07: 11
    to consider the idea of ​​TBTR extremely dubious

    The idea of ​​the BMP-1 with crown armor is extremely doubtful ... The analytical ability of the author is also dubious and rushes to send a heavy BTR without the support of technology in the thick of battle.
    For the usual transportation of fighters in a column on the territory where light sabotage groups of the enemy can operate (consider Afghanistan the same), when they are working on a small amount of anti-tank weapons and heavy machine guns TBTR is not replaceable, and the BMP-1 is a mass grave of infantry

    tactics against TBTP can be easily developed. For example, anti-tankers with an RPG or ATGM, hiding in disguised trenches and shelters, and do not open fire until the armored vehicles are near, on the 70-80 meters, better board or stern to them. Then they hit from close range, when a miss is unlikely and there is an opportunity to aim at the vulnerable spots that any armored vehicles have. There may be an addition to this tactic - rapid convergence and the use of overhead charges for the final destruction of damaged armored vehicles.

    Again, only in cases where the BTR is moving in splendid isolation to the position of the enemy ... As part of the convoy, such suicide bombers will be destroyed in the first seconds of the battle, and there’s no question about it
  12. +1
    11 July 2019 07: 34
    I agree with the part that believes that TBTR is needed in limited quantities to solve specific problems, which naturally always have a place to be (also, one should not forget about the higher possibilities for overcoming radioactive contamination zones)
  13. 0
    11 July 2019 08: 04
    And now you can debate.
    In order to discuss, it is necessary to have at least a little idea of ​​future wars.
    For example, I am opposed to the construction of aircraft carriers. you need to have a powerful air defense, because it will probably get out of space. Right there will appear combat satellites leading the battles in space.
    The fighting in Ukraine and Syria showed that tanks and armored personnel carriers (including heavy ones) are so far irrelevant. But if they create a material that is not capable of burning at any temperature, then it is possible to dream up.
    And finally, do not forget about science, and then the fans of the BTR will be in the role of Indians with arrows against the hard drives.
  14. +6
    11 July 2019 09: 29
    Once I talked with a former tank officer who served in the GSVG about his service and life in the GDR. Talking about the exercises, he mentioned such a moment as the lagging of light infantry fighting vehicles from heavy tanks when attacking a conditional enemy in deployed battle formations over a plowed field. In his words: "Tanks go like irons, and BMPs jump like frogs behind them like frogs." And after the landing took place, the infantry fell out of the troop compartment all green, up to vomiting (a manifestation of "seasickness"). That is, it was practically not combat-ready. And, he said, it would be nice if the motorized riflemen operated on the same chassis for better interaction. Well, plus the unification of spare parts.
    1. +4
      11 July 2019 11: 28
      Quote: musketone64
      the infantry fell out of the troop compartment all green, up to vomiting (a manifestation of "seasickness"). That is, it was practically not combat-ready.

      There is such a problem. But it is not solved by increasing the thickness of the armor. For example, in the BMP-3, the troops were dragged as close as possible to the center of gravity of the vehicle for greater comfort.
      1. +1
        11 July 2019 11: 52
        The landing in the BMP-3 was stuffed into the center of the hull not because of the desire to increase comfort for the paratroopers, but because of the location of the engine in the rear part of the vehicle. And as a result, while rushing, the infantry, as in the BMD, jumps over the top, getting under enemy fire.
        1. +1
          11 July 2019 13: 02
          Quote: andrey-ivanov
          and because of the location of the engine in the rear of the machine.

          And why did he suddenly find himself in the stern if he was in the nose of the BMP-1 and BMP-2?

          Quote: andrey-ivanov
          And as a result, while rushing, the infantry, as in the BMD, jumps over the top, getting under enemy fire.

          Something must be sacrificed. Either it is dangerous to jump out, or it is convenient, but you will not be able to fight because of nausea.
          1. +2
            11 July 2019 14: 20
            Quote: Spade
            And why did he suddenly find himself in the stern if he was in the nose of the BMP-1 and BMP-2?

            There were a lot of reasons. In general, it is necessary to start with the fact that this was not an infantry fighting vehicle, but an "object 688" tank, which was planned to replace the PT-76. And there was no question about the layout in principle - according to the conditions of the load on the chassis. Therefore, an infantry fighting vehicle has already been made of it. By the way, initially with an uninhabited turret and external installation of a 30-mm gun. Actually, everything that happened next turned out by itself, and not according to some deeply thought out cunning plan of the designers and the military. They did it just from what is already there. The rear position of the engine automatically led to an improvement in the smoothness of the ride, reduced wear of the chassis (in the BMP-1, the front rollers are overloaded, the rear ones are underloaded), improved flotation (the nose is lighter - it is easier to enter the water and move on the water), the ability to strengthen the frontal armor, improve the view of the mechanized drive , to fit into the hull a more powerful and voluminous armament complex that would not fit into the front-engined layout in the given vehicle dimensions. Well, traditionally, they scored how two infantrymen sitting next to the driver through hatches in the upper frontal sheet under the bullets of the enemy would get out of the car. And the rest came up with an exercise with a race through the engine to the stern. The infantry will endure everything. But what a car!
            1. 0
              11 July 2019 15: 25
              Quote: Alex_59
              And the rest came up with an exercise with a race through the engine to the stern.

            2. -1
              11 July 2019 17: 20
              Quote: Alex_59
              In general, it is necessary to start with the fact that this was not an infantry fighting vehicle, but an "object 688" tank, which was planned to replace the PT-76.

              8))))
              No, it was not a tank, the ROC "Fable" provided for the development of BMP / BMD
          2. Oct
            +1
            11 July 2019 14: 23
            And why did he suddenly find himself in the stern if he was in the nose of the BMP-1 and BMP-2?

            As I understand it, the engine was moved to the stern in order to maintain sufficient seaworthiness with relatively small dimensions and a well-maintained combat compartment, well, weight distribution when moving overland is more acceptable apparently.
          3. 0
            12 July 2019 12: 39
            According to your logic, half of the personnel of the crews of ships of the fleet should be written off ashore, and then there is a ripple in the sea (I’m not talking about stormy weather). How to work and fight in a nauseous mind I will not apply.
            1. +1
              12 July 2019 13: 01
              Quote: andrey-ivanov
              According to your logic, half of the personnel of the crews of ships of the fleet should be written off ashore, and then there is a ripple in the sea (I’m not talking about stormy weather). How to work and fight in a nauseous mind I will not apply.

              We have "half of the crew of the ships of the fleet" suffering from seasickness ???
              These are the times ....
              Really need to write off. And both halves. Starting with the bosses.
              1. 0
                12 July 2019 13: 13
                This is a purely individual feature of each homo sapiens. I have been working in the sea for 20 years, I have seen different things, and I myself have experienced it myself. When out of 30 days of the month 26 are stormy and most of the crew feels bad, no one stops work and the ship does not go somewhere to the port for people to rest. Work is work, everyone knew where they were going. The trawl is set up, the fish is being processed, the frost goes into the hold, the galley, the engine room is working, etc. So it is in the army - after 120 km in the back of the "Ural" on the dirt road, the military vomits bravo everywhere, but the field camp unfolds, they dig trenches at the training ground, shoot, combat training is underway, no one comes up with offers to rest in the shade.
                1. +2
                  12 July 2019 14: 02
                  Quote: andrey-ivanov
                  So it is in the army - after 120 km in the back of the "Ural" on the dirt road, the military vomits bravo everywhere, but the field camp unfolds, they dig trenches at the training ground, shoot, combat training is underway, no one comes up with offers to rest in the shade.

                  Dear, you do not seem to understand what is at stake.
                  Running with all the equipment to the enemy's trenches under his fire, and then cleaning these trenches is not at all like to hammer in the tent stakes after the break. The difference, to put it mildly, is gigantic.

                  Half of the crew of the Navy, suffering from seasickness is definitely a reason to disperse the Navy because of complete helplessness, laziness and uselessness.
      2. 0
        11 July 2019 12: 21
        Well, maybe it became good to ride them (BMP-3), but the landing is not very good. For this reason, on its basis, a vehicle with a front-mounted MTO - BMP "Dragoon" was developed. And the additional protection in the form of an engine located in front will not hurt. Although, in my opinion, the best solution for our army would be to redesign all T-72s by analogy with the Israeli "Akhzarit". Radically strengthen the armor, install a remote-controlled module with a Kord machine gun plus a 40-mm Balkan, surround the perimeter with sandbags and gravel leaving loopholes, and fasten additional armor plates to the hull in front of them. It would have turned out to be a kind of movable trench with a circular view and shelling. Or install a module with a 30-mm cannon and machine guns, as well as an ATGM capable of firing, depending on the conditions, both missiles with IR seeker and relatively cheap missiles using a laser beam.
        1. +2
          11 July 2019 13: 04
          Quote: musketone64
          Yes, and additional protection in the form of an engine located in the front does not hurt.

          In fact, the engine was dragged into the stern precisely in order to increase the security in the frontal projection
          1. +1
            11 July 2019 13: 50
            The engine was moved to the stern in order, first of all, to balance the car along its entire length, to improve the visibility for the mechanic drive and to slightly strengthen the front armor. Nevertheless, the creators of the next generation BMP ("Armata") preferred to place the MTO in the bow.
            1. 0
              11 July 2019 14: 22
              Quote: musketone64
              The engine was moved to the stern in order to first balance the car along the entire length.

              The engine is not dragged anywhere. He ended up in the stern by accident. He was already there on the tank. 688, from which suddenly decided to gash BMP. So it happened as if by itself. laughing
              1. +1
                11 July 2019 15: 26
                Created in 1981. The design bureau of the Kurgan Machine-Building Plant, the prototype of the new BMP, had the factory designation "Object 688" with a turret with the same armament as on the BMP-2; the chassis used elements of the light amphibious tank "Object 685" developed by the same design bureau in 1975. But then Minister of Defense Industry Zverev spoke out categorically against "a new machine with old weapons." The designers had to work out several new options for weapons before the famous "troichetka" was created.
              2. +1
                11 July 2019 17: 24
                Quote: Alex_59
                The engine is not dragged anywhere. He ended up in the stern by accident.

                There is nothing "random" there. Even two dummies were made with a longitudinal and transverse engine
                The point in the dispute was put by a mock-up commission chaired by the customer, created on the initiative of A.A. Blagonravov. In the pilot workshop, two models of the stern of the future machine were made of plywood in various versions - with a transverse and with a longitudinal engine layout. The commission is chaired by the representative of the Scientific and Technical Committee of the State Specialized Hospital Kirichenko, who subsequently did quite a lot in order for the BMP-3 to come into being, considered both versions from the point of view of the convenience of entry-exit and placement of the landing force. In the end, she approved the option with a transverse engine, providing better placement of the landing. This MTO (its design was done by EM Panfilov) turned out to be the shortest - only 1200 mm.
            2. 0
              11 July 2019 17: 22
              Quote: musketone64
              The engine was moved to the stern in order to first balance the car along the entire length.

              And what to balance? I do not armor in the nose of the car?
              1. +1
                11 July 2019 18: 27
                And her armor, including. You yourself wrote that - "the engine was dragged into the stern precisely in order to increase the protection in the frontal projection." How can you improve security in the frontal projection? Only by increasing the thickness of the armor. And this is additional weight. Plus a tower shifted forward. This made it possible to more evenly distribute the load on the chassis along the entire length of the machine. Well, it's obvious.
  15. +2
    11 July 2019 09: 29
    = ... destroy the enemy, or at least crush it. If not all and everyone, then, at a minimum, its main firing points and its heavy armament. As part of the Soviet tactics, this task was carried out by artillery preparation. When it was carried out qualitatively, then the infantry was left with a smaller part of the combat mission, executable for it. =
    The Germans followed the same tactics. Having preliminarily processed our defense with aviation, then with artillery. By the way, the artillery, apart from the anti-tank missile defense of the beginning of the war, they had better than ours - in the division - 36 105 mm howitzers and 12 150 mm howitzers. And despite this, our advancing infantry of the Germans met with rifle and machine-gun fire. In modern conditions, this fire will be added to the fire of 12.7 mm machine guns and RPGs. In such conditions, the author will climb into which BMP to participate in the attack in the BMP-3 or Namer?
  16. 0
    11 July 2019 10: 00
    argumentation develops in the plane of their usefulness
    - Actually, in a different plane. There is no need to argue something about their necessity or uselessness.
    with weak weapons
    - Having started here, the author throughout the whole article constantly confuses the BTR and the BMP.
    Notice that, although Israeli soldiers feel safe, they still put their superbronet into something like a trench.
    - for which they can only praise. And what the author contradicts himself by writing later: "They teach the infantry to be passive and hope that the armor will probably hold up." As you can see - do not teach.

    if the enemy’s fire is so strong and powerful, then what is there to do with infantry
    - to fulfill the task, the generals think about expediency, the soldiers think about survival.

    As part of the Soviet tactics, this task was carried out by artillery preparation.
    - Calling something Soviet does not make it successful or correct.

    it is a bet that the enemy will be weak and has little initiative
    - Just the fact that it will be initiative. This initiative is opposed to tank armor.

    They accustom the infantry to passivity and hope that it will survive the armor.
    - Oh yes, reasoning based on phobias caused by leaky Soviet armored personnel carriers / infantry fighting vehicles is the best method. Israeli soldiers are unlikely to hope for "chance"; Namer's armor is better than the Merkava's.

    motorized infantry will hold a significant part of the battle passively as passengers
    - In the BTR they should be passengers.

    When they say that TBTR can support tanks on the battlefield, this fact is usually forgotten.
    - Only Russians speak about this. In the rest of the world, in this case, they talk about infantry fighting vehicles and prefer to use the BTR as the BTR.

    Landing from this machine to remove, and the vacated space to use for additional ammunition.
    - this is the basic concept of Russian military thought, reflecting the fact that it is necessary to stick a gun wherever possible, even to the detriment of the main function. Because The Russian and Soviet practice of conducting a database in reality boils down to the fact that the BTR will be thrown into battle alone and will be forced to fight off on its own.

    The author overlooks that the conversation about the survivability of TBTR Namer (Akhzarit), this is the conversation about the survivability of a Merkava tank (Т54 / Т55, respectively). If the tank was adopted by the army, it means that it, including its armor, was tested and recognized as sufficient in opposing enemy tanks. The safety of TBTR, in fact, exceeds the tank, because there are no protruding and catching projectiles and rocket turrets and exploding ammunition, and the weight saved goes to reinforce the hull armor (and, like the Merkava, Namer has KAZ).
    1. +1
      11 July 2019 10: 52
      Quote: nesmeshimenya
      Only Russians speak about this. In the rest of the world, in this case, they talk about infantry fighting vehicles and prefer to use the BTR as the BTR.


      1. -1
        11 July 2019 11: 39
        Great, now it's TBMP from TBTR. Nevertheless, the armor of the tank and the place of the landing did not suffer. This autonomous module carries all of its own. That's the salt that this T changes a lot. If you have to fight among the tanks, it is better to be a tank. Just as opposed to the usual lightweight armored personnel carriers, which in the opinion of the author should support tanks.

        By the way, this wheeled thing with a huge turret, IMHO, should not be among the tanks under any circumstances.
        1. +4
          11 July 2019 13: 13
          Quote: nesmeshimenya
          Great, now it's TBMP from TBTR.

          Nevertheless, your opposition of "Russians" and "the whole world" actually turned out to be complete nonsense, didn't it?
          On the contrary, the time of lightly armed armored personnel carriers for infantry is rapidly approaching its decline.
          And this is a global trend.
          Either they are normally armed and denounced by IFV / BMP, or they are replaced by relatively cheap armored vehicles based on civilian cargo all-wheel drive vehicles, as they did in Britain and they do in France.
          1. 0
            14 July 2019 18: 45
            Quote: Spade
            Nevertheless, your opposition of "Russians" and "the whole world" actually turned out to be complete nonsense, didn't it?

            - No, of course it didn’t. The author tells tales about the fact that someone other than Russians believes that
            TBTR can support tanks on the battlefield
            - and based on this unfounded statement, he is building a whole theory about the insecurity of the TBTR and the passivity of the landing. I got on this and pointed out, writing that if someone starts using something to support the tanks, then it’s definitely not TBTR, but TBMP (just with a similar module).

            Even if Namer with the module can now be classified as an BMP, this does not mean that it ceased to be an armored personnel carrier. Exactly how armored personnel carriers should use it. In Israel, Tower Nameers are more likely to be in columns of ordinary Namers to respond to a possible ambush - in this role they will be very useful.

            I just think that should not stay no other armored personnel carriers except TBTR. Moreover, I believe that should not remain no infantry fighting vehicles; there should be only armored personnel carriers, if necessary - with a module, but no support for tanks, only delivery of fighters. It’s just that if they have to deal with tank shelling, the Namers will stand it, and the Russian armored personnel carriers / infantry fighting vehicles will burst like nutshells.
          2. -1
            14 July 2019 19: 05
            Quote: Spade
            Nevertheless, your opposition of "Russians" and "the whole world" actually turned out to be complete nonsense, didn't it?

            - No, of course it didn’t. The author tells tales about the fact that someone other than Russians believes that
            TBTR can support tanks on the battlefield

            - and based on this unfounded statement, he is building a whole theory about the insecurity of the TBTR and the passivity of the landing. I got on this and pointed out, writing that if someone starts using something to support the tanks, then it’s definitely not TBTR, but TBMP (just with a similar module).

            Even if Namer with the module can now be classified as an BMP, this does not mean that it ceased to be an armored personnel carrier. Exactly how armored personnel carriers should use it. In Israel, Tower Nameers are more likely to be in columns of ordinary Namers to respond to a possible ambush - in this role they will be very useful.

            I just think that there should be no other armored personnel carriers besides the armored personnel carrier. Moreover, I believe that no BMP should remain; there should be only armored personnel carriers, if necessary - with a module, but no support for tanks, only delivery of fighters. It’s just that if they have to deal with tank shelling, the Namers will stand it, and the Russian armored personnel carriers / infantry fighting vehicles will burst like nutshells.
    2. 0
      11 July 2019 11: 21
      and as far as I know, the newest experimental systems for shooting down anti-tank missiles, which the Merkavs receive only later, intend to use - the size of the platform makes it possible to experiment extensively, without worrying about the layout
  17. +3
    11 July 2019 10: 05
    Quote: Ali Kokand
    Conventional armored personnel carriers are easily vulnerable, and a priority goal for grenade launchers, large-scale rockets, and generally armored men.

    In my opinion, the very topic of the need for TBTR appeared because the old BMP and BTR are not being upgraded to the current level of protection on time.
    Here you are talking about cumulatives, and a lot of armored vehicles still make their way with regular armor-piercing bullets from 7.62-15mm barrels
    Now NATO has actually completed rearmament so that our 20mm guns do not pierce their armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles in the forehead, their armor is noticeably more resistant to mines than ours. And we dream of another upgrade of the old BMP-2.
    1. +1
      11 July 2019 11: 48
      In general, 20mm guns on the Soviet-Russian armored vehicles do not. The BMP-2 / 3 and BMD-2 / 3 have 30mm guns.
      1. +1
        11 July 2019 11: 59
        Yes, 30mm, but the essence does not change - the majority of natoceivers do not pierce our gun in the forehead.
        1. 0
          11 July 2019 19: 15
          In fact, it is exactly the opposite - our bmp-3s do not make their headways with their 20-25mm, and their nonsense and our 30mm Warriors are quite permeable to themselves
        2. +1
          12 July 2019 13: 19
          Well, the task at the time of the creation of the BMP / BMD-2 for punching Bradley and the non-existent then Puma no one put in the forehead. For these purposes, there is ATGW.
  18. 0
    11 July 2019 10: 21
    The author expressed his point of view ... a very controversial (violent controversy is evidence of this) ... only here the categoricalness is inappropriate here ... in infantry in foot orders ... tanks) BMPT) ... BMP / BTR and heavy BTR there tasks in battle ... in different conditions (and urban too) do not need to categorically brush aside ... you need to think about how to tactically interact on the battlefield ...
    for example, the Shilka missile defense squad did a good job of snipers ... and after all, when designing it, no one thought about such a task ...
    to suppress the enemy with tank fire, a "tank carousel" was invented ...
    I am more than confident that each technique, when it is understood its tactical use (in different conditions of warfare), will occupy a worthy niche ...
  19. 0
    11 July 2019 10: 56
    In the history of the military equipment of Israel there is an answer to the question of how to provide observation and fire capabilities to the landing party of a combat vehicle. Namely - installation on the roof of the tower a few turrets with machine guns / grenade launchers and instruments. AOI had several samples of such machines.
    But for a closed TBTR, it would be useful to make remotely controlled firing modules - one piece per board. This will provide both surveillance and close range firepower. Moreover, there will be multichannel - three firing channels at once: the main "bow" and two auxiliary airborne.
    This has repeatedly emerged on experimental development (including in the USSR). The disadvantage is that it is expensive.
  20. +14
    11 July 2019 10: 57
    "But here one cannot but ask a simple question: if the enemy's fire is so strong and powerful, then what should the infantry do there?" ////
    -----
    The author has never been under enemy fire. And he does not even remotely imagine what "enemy fire" is.
    I will explain. Any firing point has a sector of fire (like a machine gun) or a zone of fire (like a mortar).
    If the infantry safely passes under the cover of thick armor, the sector of shelling of an enemy machine gun or the zone of shelling of an enemy mortar, the BTR has completed its task. Infantry can further dismount and perform its task.
    And if an armored troop-carrier is stitched, like a can, with a machine gun or punched with mortar shards, then such an armored troop-carrier is not needed by the infantry.
    1. -1
      11 July 2019 15: 00
      That you present your realities of the occupation of Gaza.
      And in our realities, the firing point has several sectors of fire (2-3, sometimes more), as well as reserve positions. There are many firing points in the fire system, which are located so that their sectors overlap and there are no "dead zones" left. Under such conditions, the TBTR is constantly under fire, the landing force cannot land, and works with its onboard weapon until it is set on fire.
      You are at war with good Arabs who do not have the habit of creating a system of fire without "dead zones".
      1. +7
        11 July 2019 15: 16
        "There are many firing points in the fire system, which are located so that their sectors overlap and there are no" dead zones "////
        ----
        You just read military textbooks "how to build a tight defense in a large-scale war."
        But all this is not and never will be.
        Kursk battles and lines of Mannerheim ended.
        And there will be one machine gun in a simple pillbox of several pieces of concrete, which must be circumvented.
        This is possible on the TBTRD, but not on the usual BTR and BMP.
        1. -1
          11 July 2019 16: 13
          Come on. laughing
          In Grozny, the Chechens tried to create a system of fire with overlapping sectors. Anyway, any checkpoint (mini-fortress made of concrete blocks) is made like this. Leave the "dead zone", crawl and throw grenades.
          Fortunately for you, the Palestinians were not taught by Soviet military textbooks.

          Your ideas about war are simply not surprisingly ridiculous.
          1. +4
            11 July 2019 16: 22
            "The Palestinians were not taught according to Soviet military textbooks." ///
            -----
            All the Arabs around Israel were taught and are taught (Syria) by Soviet and Russian military experts precisely by Soviet military textbooks. smile
            1. -2
              11 July 2019 17: 03
              Well, somehow the Palestinians went around. Since there were no plans for the formation of the Palestinian SSR, Soviet military textbooks did not rely on them either.
              1. +3
                11 July 2019 17: 33
                Not bypassed. Several tens of thousands of Palestinians have fought / are fighting in Syria. And on the side of Assad, and on the side of the militants. 4 thousand were killed. And Russian servicemen face them in both cases. In any case, no one called them "kind" yet. For example, there is no complex defense you have described in the province of Idlib. Neither the one nor the other. TBTR would have acted calmly there, but the BMP-1 is being burned there every day.
                1. +1
                  11 July 2019 19: 03
                  To fight and be able to fight are very different things. To be able to fight is a whole science, even a world view.
                  If some do not create a complex defense, while others try to use the BMP-1 as a tank, then they themselves are to blame.
                2. -1
                  11 July 2019 22: 40
                  Alexey, but why do they intend to put up a maximum machine gun, and then on the rack? But this is almost the legendary Mouse for booking, would there be any more solid weapons would not hurt?
                  1. +3
                    11 July 2019 23: 05
                    We believed that the BTR is a vehicle for transporting infantry through dangerous places,
                    not a fighting machine. Not BIS. And we have no BMP. Tank Merkava
                    supports dismounted infantry by fire. With this approach
                    defensive machine gun on the btr enough.
                    Such is the conservative English tactics. fellow
                    In recent years there has been a change.
                    Made wheel BIS Eitan. It has a troop compartment,
                    but I think it will be used only with the crew of 3 people.
                    On the Namer began to put the turret with 20 mm cannon.
                    1. 0
                      11 July 2019 23: 26
                      You probably do not know ... I was engaged in trolling wink ... you are one of the adequate ... in vain they began to sculpt weapons. Any commander of the defending unit will first be beating VET and riflemen on tanks. The intent without weapons is of no interest to him, the carrot is the only serial tank ensuring full survival of the crew and if the crew evacuates and then reverses behind the horizon, the enemy commander has fewer problems laughing If you put something on it, it is better to remove the landing. We and you have different problems and tasks, this tactic is fully justified and effective. hi
                3. 0
                  12 July 2019 08: 56
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  No complicated defense described by you in Idlib province, for example, is observed. Neither one nor the other.


                  That is why they are telling you about the "good Arabs", since the normal positions are built precisely with the overlapping of the zones of fire. But there are certain groups of the population of the Earth, whom no matter how much you teach, they still wear a burnus under a flight helmet. Neglecting the rules of equipping positions is the reality of your theater of operations, on which beards in sneakers operate. Incidentally, they not only ignore these rules.
                  A single firing point does not require fitting a machine with a landing force to it. It is better to destroy it remotely, the benefit of the funds for this is invented in abundance.

                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  TBTR there would have acted calmly, but the BMP-1 is burning there every day.

                  "Would" is the key in the sentence. wink
                  In Syria, both sides had an abundance of tanks, would pick "intents" with 120-mm shells. BMPs are harnessed there because they are used as light tanks.

                  Voyaka, the author of the article brings the right idea: TBTR, TBMP is a niche technique for specific tasks. Rather, even the police than the army. I just really can not imagine the army, which will expose a single firing point with a single firing zone without a system of its cover from at least a minefield.
          2. 0
            11 July 2019 23: 25
            Then we need to move towards the future right now - a robotic modular four-track platform with a bulldozer blade, 203 millimeter cannon with a long barrel 30 caliber with a muzzle brake compensator and a combined damping device of the barrel, a fully burning cartridge, automatic loader, four 12,7 two-machine guns two nine four HE guns. with optical robotic detection system, recognition of enemy infantry armored vehicles on each machine-gun module, modular armor of composite armor - armored al + titanium metallopene, combined active protection, dual dynamic protection, multi-fuel diesel engine with triple turbocharging horsepower 7,62. A sort of robotic heavy-duty assault tank, in a fleet with which there will be two dozen wheeled combat modules with machine guns, grenade launchers and flamethrowers, MANPADS, modules reloading machines, individual search system for fire points, data transfer between all modules and the tank itself via optical channels or protected communication channels.
            1. 0
              11 July 2019 23: 45
              Vadim, your presentation, though fancy, but fits into the existing template wassat It is necessary to think alternatively. Any tracked platform is vulnerable to mines, so only hardcore is a walking tank with gyrostabilization, the lattice-patterned feet of the plate will withstand dozens of explosions, and even less chance of attack, than to hit. The blast wave will not reach the crew compartment, and the review is just wonderful, along with the shelling zone. And the rotating gyrostabilizer disk with dynamic protection is almost impenetrable. lol neither tandem nor even ... in short nothing tongue Absolute protection of the lower hemisphere. Sverhu KAZ and air defense near radius. Any river easily, knee-deep and swim is not necessary ... This is tin, I myself am afraid how I will introduce ...
              1. -2
                12 July 2019 10: 07
                Against mines and IEDs, excellent systems of protection and remote blasting have already been made - mines for armored vehicles with similar equipment will not pose a problem.
              2. 0
                12 July 2019 10: 09
                And the walking tank is too complicated and slow - no one will consider this concept.
                1. 0
                  12 July 2019 15: 35
                  Well, she just never seriously and did not consider, to be honest. I see your idea in the form of an articulated transporter, just for the assault. The front section is a kind of screen where there is nothing fuel, the second is just for everything else and the main drive of each rink, then it will leave anyway.
                  1. -2
                    13 July 2019 11: 03
                    This one, too, will leave anyway, since the chassis does not have two tracks, but four - like the object 279
              3. +2
                12 July 2019 12: 12
                "therefore only hardcore - walking tank with gyro stabilization, plate feet with lattice structure" ////
                ----
                This is from Herbert Wales. The invasion of the Martians. But the funny thing is - he is a genius visionary.
                Like Alexey Tolstoy with the laser of engineer Garin. Not in the sense of aliens, but in the sense of the tanks of the future. The concept "spider" is optimal in cross-country ability, speed and maneuverability on rough terrain. But for this it is necessary to reach the level of non-metallic light and durable materials for the spider's legs.
                1. +2
                  12 July 2019 15: 45
                  I repeat, just no one was engaged seriously, but in vain. Patency in the conditions of the ruined city is ideal, and there tanks slip out once or twice. Visibility is the same, the opportunity to sit down behind a handful. Spider in perspective, there is really weighting at the expense of legs and need materials and technology. But no one bothers to create a bipart now, especially with 3 printers that can create closed hollow structures. In such a leg, fire with pturami, all the same as a prick with a pin for an elephant, the holes will remain and the functionality will be preserved. I made a toy, so here such interesting solutions were poked up that I would never have thought of it myself. Just the absence of some of the conditions that led to the search for solutions, how to make it better but easier, and it turned out to be a very interesting creation, done on the knee ...
                2. +1
                  12 July 2019 21: 51
                  The arachnid chassis has a problem not in materials but in control, I studied the issue, it turned out that spiders have paws with special sensor hairs for a reason. How to implement this on a larger scale and even in an armored version has not yet been invented.
                  1. -4
                    13 July 2019 11: 11
                    In the old "Tank Police" animation mech, '88 there was a similar combat vehicle, but the principle of its movement was an anti-gravity system that allowed it to move quickly in urban environments.
  21. -4
    11 July 2019 11: 19
    now, when hostilities have moved into revolution and war with all kinds of rebels, it can and is relevant, only as they have modern weapons, all these mobile fortresses turn into scrap metal
  22. +4
    11 July 2019 11: 27
    Quote: voyaka uh
    "But here one cannot but ask a simple question: if the enemy's fire is so strong and powerful, then what should the infantry do there?" ////
    -----
    The author has never been under enemy fire. And he does not even remotely imagine what "enemy fire" is.
    I will explain. Any firing point has a sector of fire (like a machine gun) or a zone of fire (like a mortar).
    If the infantry safely passes under the cover of thick armor, the sector of shelling of an enemy machine gun or the zone of shelling of an enemy mortar, the BTR has completed its task. Infantry can further dismount and perform its task.
    And if an armored troop-carrier is stitched, like a can, with a machine gun or punched with mortar shards, then such an armored troop-carrier is not needed by the infantry.

    Moreover, neither the author nor those who talk about buoyancy and maneuver as the main advantages of the family of domestic BMPs "women are still giving birth" have not the slightest idea about the topic under discussion, all this for the sake of hype and pluses. In the event of the next mass utilization, all these experts dissolve without a trace in the surrounding reality until the moment "muscle memory will not let go". Then all over again. laughing
    1. -1
      12 July 2019 09: 00
      Quote: Vasily199
      families of domestic BMP "women are still giving birth"

      I hope you know that the phrase about women has never been pronounced by anybody who is attributed to high-voices? Well, just so as not to attribute the concept of domestic armored vehicles of unusual characteristics.
  23. +2
    11 July 2019 11: 38
    Mnem ... well, the only difference with heavy armored personnel carriers is the ability to withstand an ATGM hit and an undermining on a land mine of a larger size.

    That is, to save the lives of fighters during ambushes on the march.


    And in the general offensive or the defense of armored personnel carriers and not used. The infantry either runs on foot after the tanks, or digs into the trenches (which are more reliable than any armored personnel carriers).
    1. +4
      11 July 2019 16: 51
      TBTR distinguishes the following from light armored vehicles:
      1. The armor holds large-caliber machine guns and small-caliber guns from all angles, provides protection (possibly partial) of frontal projection from tank shells and heavy ATGM.
      2. Armor allows you to install passive protection modules without the risk of breaking armor when they are triggered.
      3. Greater resistance to the most common mines and land mines (according to American practice, the highest number of land mines to 6-8 kg)
      4. Possibility to install heavier armament modules and additional active countermeasure complexes: KAZ, optical suppression laser complexes, demining facilities, for example, various trawls

      The place of the TBRT and TBMP is in the shock tank divisions, which will open the enemy defenses, as well as in special assault divisions, which will clear the cities.
      The TBTR / TBMP will allow delivering assault units to the line of dismounting, and will not be left in the field along with the landing force. This will allow at the turn of the enemy’s defense to protect tanks from attack using massive anti-tank grenade launchers.

      MPAPs will be useful for ambush, marches and mopping up the rear guards for everything.
      1. -2
        12 July 2019 09: 09
        Quote: Cympak
        TBTR / TBMP will allow to deliver assault units to the line of dismounting

        The author of the article has already responded to this thesis. I repeat. Why deliver and rush troops to where no light armored vehicles can operate? Who will climb out from under the armor, if there are not depressed firing points with large-caliber machine guns and grenade launchers outside? Yes, you protect the car and the troops will be protected in it. He will sit in it. Since the heavily armored infantry so far no one else has. And from the opposite side, too, no fools are sitting and the positions on the 50-ton BMP will not shine in advance. They will wait for the start of the landing and at the time of dismounting they will open fire on it.
        1. 0
          12 July 2019 16: 22
          How armored vehicles end up in close contact with enemy infantry, counter-attacks of tank corps showed in the summer of 1941. Here is a vivid illustration.

          Heavy BMP / BTR resistant to fire automatic guns and hand grenade launchers, in the presence of KAZ, resistance to most anti-tank systems is added. This enables heavy infantry fighting vehicles / armored personnel carriers to deliver assault groups relatively safely directly to the enemy’s trenches and land them in the safest areas. During movement, heavy infantry fighting vehicles / armored personnel carriers will suppress enemy firing points with automatic weapon fire, since unlike tanks, they are not limited by the rate of fire. When the line of dismounting is reached, the infantry will leave the TBMP / TBTR and begin to defend armored vehicles overcoming enemy trenches from grenade launchers.
          I remind you that in order to shoot a grenade launcher you need to pop out of the shelter on half of the hull and aim at the moving target, make a launch, evaluate its result. Therefore, such a launcher will be vulnerable from 3 to 8 seconds.
          If the enemy does not "light up their positions," he will wait for what happened to the Iraqi guards during the "Desert Storm", when first American infantry fighting vehicles, reaching the enemy's trenches, began to shoot them with automatic cannons along the trenches, and then blended tractors came and filled the trenches with what was left in them. Our tanks are equipped with self-digging dumps and no tractor is needed.
          Why do you need to land the infantry closer to the enemy's trenches?
          The effective range of fire from a machine gun is 300 meters, but in fact, on the move and in the heat of battle, it does not exceed 100 meters. When landing the infantry, you will have to turn off the KAZ. In this case, the infantry must hit the ATGM crews and grenade launchers with their fire. The infantry cannot move at the speed of armored vehicles and will lag behind it. The longer an infantryman runs, the more he gets tired, the longer he is vulnerable to enemy small arms fire. If the infantry is delivered by a lightly armored infantry fighting vehicle, vulnerable to ATGM fire, grenade launchers, automatic cannons, large-caliber machine guns, anti-material rifles, then the infantry will have to hurry as early as possible, because the farther the fighters sit in such a "box", the more chances that they will be destroyed all at once together with the car. I mentioned the problems of early dismounting above.
  24. 0
    11 July 2019 11: 42
    The author of the article confused the Namer armored vehicle with the BMP-1/2/3 combat vehicle.

    Armored personnel carriers do not participate in the battle, with the exception of long-range infantry fire support (if there is an appropriate weapon module with 30- and more than a mm cannon). Therefore, they need armor only to protect against fragments of artillery shells and aerial bombs. From RPG protects not armor, and KAZ / SAZ. The main purpose of the conveyor is to transport infantry with comfort (without pitching and with air conditioning) in a large volume of the troop compartment with mine seats and the floor (as well as blackjack and ..........., you understand laughing ).

    In this case, the weight of the conveyor should be exactly equal to the weight of the main battle tank, since there is no point in making a conveyor on another platform - armored personnel carriers act only in conjunction with tanks and nothing else.

    The infantry on the battlefield must attack only on foot, at a distance of 200 meters from the tanks, so that the fragments of the KAZ / SAZ and the shock wave from the shots from the tank guns do not damage it.

    The very idea of ​​"BMP" is evil.
  25. +2
    11 July 2019 11: 44
    TBMP (TBTR) are machines for urban combat, where a swift offensive is not needed as in a clean field and where the coverage is mostly solid. In the city, such a machine is much more preferable than aluminum BMP 1,2. Tank guns are in most cases redundant for this kind of fighting, preferably a quick-fire gun and a large-caliber machine gun. IMHO should be two types of combat vehicles, light floating and heavy. How much and in what proportion is another question.
    1. +1
      11 July 2019 16: 26
      Quote: Bodypuncher
      IMHO should be two types of combat vehicles, light floating and heavy.

      Apparently it was in this direction that we went. Light floating - BMP-3, BMD-4, Kurganets. Heavy - T-15 "Barberry"
  26. +3
    11 July 2019 11: 52
    When they talk about massed artillery preparation and the fact that tanks are advancing in the first line, and then when the enemy is depressed infantry is moving on the armor of the BTR BMP light armor this is true only for mass battles in the field like the Second World War. In fact, all the recent wars took place in urban agglomerations, or in the highlands where such tactics do not work.
  27. +1
    11 July 2019 12: 02
    Quote: voyaka uh
    And if an armored troop-carrier is stitched, like a can, with a machine gun or punched with mortar shards, then such an armored troop-carrier is not needed by the infantry.

    Well, looking at the intention, it is clear that protection was made not only from fragments
    there are such boards that can break off a fragment of a kilogram flying to the 1.5.
  28. -2
    11 July 2019 12: 04

    Armor is strong, and our mtlb are fast
    1. +4
      11 July 2019 13: 50
      MT-LB is generally a tractor. And passes through the office of motorists, not BTshnikov.
      1. +1
        12 July 2019 11: 15
        In the course I'm here only:

        1. +1
          12 July 2019 11: 22
          Quote: Vasily199
          In the course I'm here only:


          So what?
          It's still a tractor. And it goes through the department of motorists. Moreover, the staff of the battalion on the MTLB was called "the staff of the battalion on the vehicle"

          The use of MT-LB as a BTR- forced measure. Connected not with security, but with the traffic of the car.
          1. 0
            12 July 2019 11: 28
            And the fact that what the difference is that in the letters it is written it is important what happens in reality!
            1. +1
              12 July 2019 12: 22
              Quote: Vasily199
              And the fact that what the difference is that in the letters it is written it is important what happens in reality!

              The difference is huge. MT-LB was developed as a tractor with splinter armor, and it’s definitely not worth pushing a kilogram of a mixture of TNT and ammonium chloride under it.
              1. -1
                15 July 2019 06: 51
                Tell about this to everyone shoving and shooting, and it’s worth hanging a plate only 5,45 and firecrackers, this will certainly help!
  29. 0
    11 July 2019 12: 26
    Apparently, the future in urban operations belongs to controlled robots the size of a motorcycle with a sidecar, such as Nerekhta, with motion sensors and operators at a distance of 5 km. The main weapon is pkt and 1000 rounds. Well, outside the city you can get rid of it as you like. Maybe heavy armored personnel carriers will do with some kind of tactics?
    1. 0
      11 July 2019 12: 50
      Maybe heavy BTRs will fit in with some tactics?

      feel in 1995, in Grozny, the losses could have been different from 1426 200 and 4630 300, and in the second assault on Grozny in 2000: 368 200 and 1469 300
      1. 0
        11 July 2019 19: 38
        if it is in honor of speaking ... then it was not the case that was in business ... but in the organization of the operation as such ... and a number of commanders ... incapable of organizing an all-arms battle in the city ... interaction, etc. ... here and TBTR does not save ...
  30. 0
    11 July 2019 12: 29
    the bottom line is that our army lacks TBTR. and how many lives would have been saved in Xnumx during the storming of Grozny
    1. +8
      11 July 2019 13: 45
      Quote: Romario_Argo
      and how many lives would have been saved in Xnumx during the storming of Grozny

      They would have shot in the same way. Do not forget, there was practically no "assault", and the main losses were incurred during the shooting of immobilized columns with infantry inside the armor
      1. +2
        11 July 2019 17: 03
        During the first assault on Grozny, they acted on the principle of establishing control in peaceful cities. We arrived, stood at intersections, and then the creation of commandant's offices, checking passports ....
        But the city was not at all peaceful.
        During the assault, the assault units must go ahead (on foot, and sit inside the infantry fighting vehicle), and armored vehicles should support them from behind. In this case, the assault groups reveal enemy firing points, and their armored vehicles suppress them. For the most stubborn ordered art.udar or aircraft. If there is a threat for attack aircraft, then they retreat under the cover of fire and armor technology. In addition, the armored vehicles are carrying additional bk for assault units and heavy weapons (for example, grenade launchers, heavy machine guns, etc.)
        How about ...
        1. +1
          11 July 2019 17: 12
          Quote: Cympak
          During the first assault on Grozny, they acted on the principle of establishing control in peaceful cities. We arrived, stood at intersections, and then the creation of commandant's offices, checking passports ....

          Rather, they tried to portray the "psychic attack" in a new way. A lot of equipment entering the city at the same time.

          To put it mildly, they underestimated the situation. Apparently, the deplorable results of the previous "assault" by the Avturkhanovs' subunits were either not appreciated or not communicated at all to the fathers-commanders
  31. -2
    11 July 2019 12: 42
    Personally, I consider Ahzarit and Namer to be extremes. In my opinion, in the army such vehicles should be, but limited to solving rare specific tasks, as well as light armored personnel carriers, incl. domestic armored vehicles, infantry fighting vehicles and BMD, the main advantage of this technology is the availability of decent weapons and high mobility. And the basis of the fleet of infantry vehicles must be vehicles: wheeled vehicles that have a minimum order from all sides and on all sides, with protection allowing the crew and troops to survive the explosion of anti-tank mines under the wheel, as well as having a modular reservation system and weapons, and a uniform chassis. Also, such armored personnel carriers are needed in different sizes, masses, wheel formulas, for example, domestic KamAZ trucks of the Typhoon family, Patria AMV, VBCI, VBMR.
    1. +6
      11 July 2019 13: 58
      We take a Soviet motorized rifle battalion of the 1980 model with its 46-47 BTR-80 and 30-33 unarmored trucks, moving from the rear through the fields and hills to the conditional front line. The advance of the battalion is detected by the enemy (drone, special forces group, air or satellite reconnaissance), after which the battalion's column is struck from systems similar to the Soviet RZSO Uragan and ACS Msta-M. The situation is typical for August 2014 in the Donbas, where the "Soviet battalion" was portrayed by company tactical groups of the Armed Forces of Ukraine of different brigades. After being hit by the cumulative and ball cassette of the Hurricane, half of the BTR-80 will catch fire, and all the trucks will turn into a sieve. Unaffected armored personnel carriers will stop, blocked by burning vehicles, the infantry dismounted. And just then there are new strikes with anti-personnel cassettes, against dismounted infantry and Mstyukhs, with adjustments for armored personnel carriers standing in a traffic jam on the road. Khan's battalion. But at the same time, the tank company accompanying the battalion survives (11 T-64BV tanks), whose crews showed restraint and courage, skillfully concentrated on the terrain and prepared for battle. The Mstyukhs and Hurricanes could not do anything to them. At the same time, the tanks were left without the support of destroyed or scattered infantry and already at night they engage in battle with paratroopers who drove up to the place of the defeat of the battalion on BMD (33 BMD-ex), who have the goal of finishing off the survivors. Destroying several BMD-ex, all tanks perish under a flurry of ATGMs launched by BMDehs and dismounted paratroopers, unable to see such small and well-camouflaged targets at night, maneuvering in the folds of the terrain. This is Donbass at the end of August 2014, I just slightly increased the scale of the battle.

      Obviously, if the armored personnel carriers of the motorized rifle battalion had the same security as the accompanying battalion T-64BV tanks (or any other main tanks), as well as had a battalion of trucks based on MRAVs, they would have suffered a blow from Uragans and Mstyuh with minimal losses. And the assault battalion, which had approached the night, would have been waited by a bloodbath as a result of a clash with a much more firepower and number of infantry battalion supported by a tank company. But rather, the entire command is adequate, and the paratroopers will not be sent to attack such a battalion.
      1. 0
        11 July 2019 14: 37
        "have the armored personnel carriers of the motorized rifle battalion the same protection as the tanks accompanying the battalion"
        In such cases, the column would be treated with the appropriate ammunition. With the same result, only tanks would be left .....
        1. +1
          11 July 2019 14: 41
          Appropriate ammunition is what? The battalion is in 20 km from the front line. And we are talking about land weapons.
          1. 0
            11 July 2019 17: 17
            Quote: Stafford41
            Appropriate ammunition is what?

            Cassette with COBE, cassette with SPBE.
            In the end, they would stupidly increase the expenditure of OF of ammunition.

            In the most extreme case, guided or adjustable projectiles with a semi-active laser illuminated homing with UAV
            1. 0
              11 July 2019 17: 32
              Cassette with COBE, cassette with SPBE.
              In the end, they would stupidly increase the expenditure of OF of ammunition.

              The Smerch and Hurricane T-64BV cassette with charged dynamics did not take. Most likely, the cassette of Point U will not take either. In general, a tank battalion can withstand a nuclear strike.

              Here, the missiles are needed driven with a powerful cumulative warhead. That is, exposure from the air. Airplanes and turntables. But against them there is an army air defense and fighters.

              In the most extreme case, guided or adjustable projectiles with a semi-active laser illuminated homing with UAV

              The technique is moving and pretty fast! As soon as the first shells fall on the column, it will begin to disengage. And the drone operators' eyes scatter to direct projectiles on machines running in different directions. Therefore, the first strike is applied to the RZSO, covering the column with cumulative and fragmentation submunitions so that it stops. And then the barrel artillery comes into action.
              1. +1
                11 July 2019 17: 40
                Quote: Stafford41
                The Smerch and Hurricane T-64BV cassette with charged dynamics did not take.

                Naturally. Because it was not used. The shock core does not care about the "charged dynamics"

                Quote: Stafford41
                The technique is moving and pretty fast!

                Covering a minefield exposed by the MLRS and comfortable shooting of the column as a fixed target

                Quote: Stafford41
                And the drone operators' eyes scatter to direct projectiles on machines running in different directions.

                Nothing complicated. They are generally trained to work on attacking tank units, that's really difficult there.

                Quote: Stafford41
                Therefore, the first strike is applied to the RZSO, covering the column with cumulative and fragmentation submunitions so that it stops.

                What?
                Why should she stop? On the contrary, it should increase the speed of movement and the distance between the machines.
                1. +1
                  11 July 2019 17: 49
                  What?
                  Why should she stop? On the contrary, it should increase the speed of movement and the distance between the machines.

                  Should that should. But when the cars flash almost at the same time, the ammunition charge starts to explode in them, everything very quickly covers with suffocating and impenetrable smoke, only the first car can go ahead, if it is not hit. The rest will start spinning on the spot, bump into each other and other things that occur at zero visibility.
                  1. 0
                    11 July 2019 17: 55
                    Quote: Stafford41
                    But when the cars flash almost at the same time, the ammunition charge starts to explode in them, everything very quickly covers with suffocating and impenetrable smoke, only the first car can go ahead, if it is not hit.

                    At normal, "authorized" distance, there will be no hindrances in turning to the left and going around.
                    Here goes, for example, an infantry fighting vehicle. In 100-150 meters ahead (according to Soviet regulations) another BMP was hit. Which "spinning in place", which "bump into each other" ????
          2. -1
            11 July 2019 22: 11
            Well, you have already been answered here)))) And you can also build a salad dressing. When, in addition to submunitions of different (9М55К1,9М55К5), 9М55К4 is added. More precisely, for the beginning it is them. Well, if this particular battalion is very depressing, you can also 9М55С ..... This is just what is already possible)))))
      2. 0
        12 July 2019 09: 18
        Quote: Stafford41
        Obviously, if the armored personnel carriers of the motorized rifle battalion had the same security as the accompanying battalion T-64BV tanks (or any other main tanks), as well as had a battalion of trucks based on MRAVs, they would have suffered a blow of Hurricanes and Mstyuh with minimal losses.

        Can you imagine a battalion on a heavily armored vehicle? The Israelis throughout the army have as many TBTRs as needed for one battalion. Even the USSR did not have enough money for the infantry motorization plan. Because half of the battalion and was busy on trucks.
        Then it is easier to abandon the infantry cover of the tanks altogether and finally make the BMPT in a normal form.
      3. 5-9
        +1
        12 July 2019 14: 15
        In the Donbass, the MLRS with SPBE are just tanks and they ... they, SPBE, it makes no difference - a tank, a TBTR based on it, or a simple BTR-BMP ... of course, personnel losses when entering UYA in a tank roof will be lower, but the result one box is hit / destroyed.
  32. +2
    11 July 2019 13: 10
    no possibility of firing from armor landing

    Not the first time. The author complains about this, let's think up a project that he likes. Here, for example: the chassis in the form of two identical modules, carriages, front and rear, each with an engine and a set of wheels or tracks. A carriage with seats for passengers is suspended from these carriage modules. On 4 or on 5 along each side in the form of firing points with a set of weapons. Climb into your place and lead the fire as you wish. The entrance-exit can also be made individual-individual, for example, by deflecting a section of the bead around the upper edge with an expansion of the slot-opening below - roll out to the ground or crawl inside. With sufficient mobility of the housing attachment to the chassis modules, you can freely rotate it in the horizontal plane while on the move, allowing the left or right side to shoot forward.
  33. -1
    11 July 2019 13: 23
    I am very far from the topic described by the author. But the presentation and arguments are very interesting, in my (amateurish) view.
    Good article
    1. +4
      11 July 2019 17: 08
      Bad and extremely weak article of the sofa strategist. The author would like to start reading the combat regulations, and it is better to go to serve under the contract in the army. And inapplicable to the grenade launcher to understand what it is to burn enemy tanks.
      1. -1
        11 July 2019 18: 49
        Well, you probably know better) I did not pretend to be correct, but it pushes me to think
  34. +7
    11 July 2019 13: 34
    Here are these three circumstances: replacing the enemy’s suppression with artillery preparation with armor protection against him, giving the initiative back to the enemy at the level of the tactical concept, as well as the passive nature of the motorized infantry actions, actually at the level of the trophy team, is enough to consider the idea of ​​TBTR extremely doubtful.

    For three reasons:
    1) You described the forced replacement of the artillery barrage due to the dense development and the presence of "noncombotants". TBTR here is not the reason for the lack of artillery barrage, it is a way out of the situation. It is unfair to reproach him with this fact.
    2) Any defense, with such a formulation of the question, is a return of the initiative to the enemy. Dig trenches, create missile defense systems, wear body armor, and so on. We remember how the "initiative" strategy of the USSR worked during the beginning of the Second World War, which implied attacking actions as the main principle of warfare: "We will beat the enemy with small forces on its territory."
    3) The passive nature of infantry actions can be caused not only by armor, but also by the density of enemy fire. At the same time, if it is due to the presence of armor, then the infantry still has the possibility of some kind of maneuver, even inside the TBTR, in the second case - the infantry risks being completely useless.

    It seems to me that such comparisons should be carried out, taking into account the cost of both variants of machines. If a mass infantry transfer on TBTR means that there is not enough money for anything else - then we can only talk about arming special forces with special tasks. And if any 1 TBTR is comparable to, say, 2-me BTR, then you need to see whether it gives the same benefit. Well, supposedly somehow.
  35. +2
    11 July 2019 13: 41
    The T-15 can be quite good without an assault force inside, but with increased ammunition.

    For these purposes, a "terminator" was created
  36. +3
    11 July 2019 14: 02
    Quote: Romario_Argo
    the bottom line is that our army lacks TBTR. and how many lives would have been saved in Xnumx during the storming of Grozny






    1989 Afgan BMP 2 d is not a panacea but still

    Chechnya 1994 no cars.

    2019 author of the article collects pluses by jumping on a rake.
    1. +5
      11 July 2019 17: 55
      As practice shows, in the presence of real combat operations, lightly armored vehicles immediately begin loading with additional armor, gratings, sandbags, and hanging up dynamic protection. At the same time, even worsening other characteristics: mobility, buoyancy, visibility. We are watching Donbass, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and this is what the local, the Americans, and ours are doing.
      I think this is an obvious answer to the question about the need for TBMP / TBTR.
      In this case, it is not necessary to plant all the troops on heavily armored vehicles. For each task - its own solution. Rear, military police, anti-partisan operations - MRAP. Intelligence, quick-response troops, airborne troops, marines, units designed to develop the success of the offensive are floating armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles. Rear, art, management - lightly armored BTR and vehicles.
      1. 0
        12 July 2019 18: 49
        Quote: Cympak
        As practice shows, in the presence of real hostilities, lightly armored vehicles immediately begin to load with additional armor, grates, sandbags, hang up dynamic defenses.

        A heavily armored that, just do not load? And bags and grates and even nets with stones. Look at the photo from Syria, than there they just did not strengthen the armor ....
  37. 0
    11 July 2019 14: 08
    Quote: Spade
    MT-LB is generally a tractor. And passes through the office of motorists, not BTshnikov.

    Duc and armored personnel carriers with infantry fighting vehicles "move on the asphalt only delivering infantry" what
  38. +1
    11 July 2019 14: 17
    Heavy BTR: an extremely dubious idea
    I do not agree with the author, but on Dmitry Verkhoturov's statement that "Of all the creativity of domestic designers, the T-15 with the Boomerang-BM or AU-220M module is best suited. Remove the troops from this vehicle, and use the vacated space for additional ammunition", I want to" discuss "separately. Just a heavy infantry fighting vehicle is an extremely dubious idea, not a heavy armored personnel carrier. The whole point of the BMP is in its versatility, where the ideal of the BMP-3 and its airborne continuation of the BMD-4M. Mastodon of the T-15 type, in in the best case, a "police tank", anti-guerrilla equipment for anti-terrorist operations. In general, to make a "platform" on an expensive and complex base, spend money on R&D and R&D of something that has not yet proven itself, has not been adopted for service, has not been mastered by industry, you have to guess ...

    The T-72 base, as an already established platform, is much more reasonable. Here, a heavy BMP T-15, what do we have for battle? In size, this monster is commensurate with a five-turret T-35 tank. The weight is more than that of the T-14 tank, but such an armored miracle with infantry in the belly next to the tanks will climb, and the crew and the entire landing will burn. In general, a heavy infantry fighting vehicle as an armored vehicle loses to a heavy armored personnel carrier, and as a fire support it is inferior to an BMPT. So it turns out that ideal for heavy equipment is not universalization, but specialization, where tanks must work as fire support for BMPTs, and heavy armored personnel carriers (for the second line) as transport. You cannot shove one thing without harming the other. Cram everything into "one bottle" is fraught. It is much more logical to make a well-protected heavy armored personnel carrier, with an emphasis on transportation, and an BMPT with an emphasis on specialized fire support. Moreover, speaking about the heavy armored personnel carrier, I would like to note that in conjunction with the BMPT this will be a tandem heavy infantry fighting vehicle, divided into two vehicles, or in a different ratio, for the BMPT and TBTR group. Also, if we are not talking about anti-guerrilla, anti-terrorist equipment, a heavy armored personnel carrier should not have a large landing. Optimally, 5-6 people are represented as an assault group. This will optimize the size and protection, reduce the time for dismounting the landing force as a combat unit, and minimize losses in the event of an armored personnel carrier being hit with the landing party inside.
    The best solution from the existing one is on a single tank base (T-72 / T-90) BMPT ("Terminator") and modified BMO-T as a heavy armored personnel carrier for assault groups in support of their tanks. As already noted, we already have a platform that has proven itself and is mastered by the industry.
    These three cars are only part of what is used on the base.
    1. +1
      11 July 2019 16: 01
      Will not go.
      1. The rear MTO does not allow the shooters to dismount normally.
      2. Small booking capacity does not allow to place a full-fledged motorized rifle squad.
      And so that those poor T-72 (90) will have to shovel away from these shortcomings, that it is easier to come up with a new tank. For my couch IMHO for an urban armored personnel carrier, the combat module should not communicate with the assault cabin more than the holes for the cables connecting the drives on the roof to the equipment inside, and the roof itself should be slightly inferior to the forehead and sides of the roof (it’s very tempting to shoot from buildings) . There is still such a weakness in modern MBTs (and machines based on them): in the area of ​​the engine compartment, the armor on the sides does not allow DZs to be installed (too thin, lattices are put in there, but we will leave this crap to Syrian do-it-yourselfers and BMP-1,2 ...) it is also desirable to somehow get rid of it. Protection as equal as possible in all projections. It is necessary to meet the 45-50 t fully equipped (crew, landing, fuel, BC).
      1. -1
        11 July 2019 16: 48
        Quote: CouchExpert
        1. The rear MTO does not allow the shooters to dismount normally.
        2. Small booking capacity does not allow to place a full-fledged motorized rifle squad.

        Rear location of MTO is not a reason to talk about not normal dismounting of shooters, especially since dismounting "through the rear" may not always be convenient and safe. In any case, the problem of dismounting with the rear MTO can be solved. For example, our BMP-3 or the Israeli armored personnel carrier "Akhzarit" based on the captured T-54 / T-55. About "small armor volume", a heavy armored personnel carrier already has a greater volume, at least in that, unlike a heavy infantry fighting vehicle, reinforced weapons with ammunition are not crammed into it. Savings in weight and volume can be added to the protection and more comfortable placement of the troopers. In addition, I specifically emphasized that a heavy armored personnel carrier following tanks and BMPTs should be designed for an assault group of 5-6 people, and not 9-10 people, as on the same wheeled armored personnel carriers called for raids and marches. rapid movement of infantry. BMO-T may well become the base for the heavy armored personnel carrier of our army, and, for alterations, you can use the stocks of old T-72s, both for heavy armored personnel carriers, and for BMPTs. In the photo BMO-T.
        1. +3
          11 July 2019 17: 33
          Quote: Per se.
          Rear location of MTO is not a reason to talk about not normal dismounting of shooters, especially since dismounting "through the rear" may not always be convenient and safe. In any case, the problem of dismounting with the rear MTO can be solved. For example, our BMP-3 or the Israeli armored personnel carrier "Akhzarit" based on the captured T-54 / T-55.

          Crawling out through narrow hatches in situations where speed is needed so much is not a solution, it is about nothing. And how, for example, immerse the wounded through the engine? Even the same 5-6 people get out through these hatches for too long. The BMO-T will have a thin roof, if you do a normal one, then the hatch in it will weigh so much that you will lift the hell up. Rear ramp - this is a normal, accepted practice, it is not worth inventing any game here. The only place where this is not justified is the armored personnel carriers for the landing of the amphibious assault forces, here you have to make hatches in the roof.
          Quote: Per se.
          About "small armor volume", a heavy armored personnel carrier already has a greater volume, at least in that, unlike a heavy infantry fighting vehicle, reinforced weapons with ammunition are not crammed into it. Savings in weight and volume can be added to the protection and more comfortable placement of the troopers. In addition, I specifically emphasized that a heavy armored personnel carrier following tanks and BMPTs should be designed for an assault group of 5-6 people, and not 9-10 people, as on the same wheeled armored personnel carriers called for raids and marches. rapid movement of infantry.

          Who said that the assault group should be 5-6 people? Here in our department there are 10 people, 6 went to the assault, and 4 followed on foot? Or sat down to smoke until it's over? There is no need to adjust everything to the geometry of the existing chassis. For the normal implementation of the armored personnel carrier will have to lengthen the existing hull for a couple of rollers, otherwise it will turn out "neither one nor the other." The compartment in the assigned equipment must fit everything completely. Strange as it may seem, but the armored personnel carrier can (and even probably should) be larger and heavier than the MBT: otherwise, a more significant armor volume cannot be protected, and in case of defeat on the march, it is about 10 "two hundredths." Our width is structurally limited by the dimensions of tractors / railway platforms, the length remains.
          Quote: Per se.
          The BMO-T may well become the base for a heavy BTR of our army, and, for alterations, you can use the stocks of the old T-72, both for the heavy BTR, and for BMPT. In the photo of the LMC-T.

          For BMPT, yes. For TBTR, it is extremely doubtful. This is too big a "hemorrhoid" for a plant. It's one thing to just change the tower, another thing to digest half a tank.
          1. -1
            12 July 2019 06: 16
            Quote: CouchExpert
            Who said the assault team should be from 5-6 people? Here we have a 10 man in the squad, 6 went to the assault, and 4 - on foot followed?
            For your example, where there are 10 people in the department, 5 in the first TBTR, 5 in the second. In general, speaking about the "assault group", it meant the use of special units to work with tanks, in conjunction with a single tank base, for example, the T-90, BMPT, BMO-T (or rather, a modified heavy armored personnel carrier based on the BMO-T), in any ratio. About "loading the wounded", maybe for the tank then to do the rear ramp? No, it means that for such equipment the wounded will be taken differently, by other means, for other equipment. About "hemorrhoids" with alterations of tanks for heavy armored personnel carriers, this is hardly a problem, otherwise very pragmatic Israelis would not bother with alterations of T-54 / T-55 and "Centurion" tanks for heavy armored personnel carriers. Also, by the way, it made sense to lengthen the hull when converting into an ACS, and even then not always, in the photo of the "Coalition - SV" ACS on the T-90 chassis.
            1. +1
              12 July 2019 11: 51
              Quote: Per se.
              For your example, where there are 10 people in the department, 5 in the first TBTR, 5 in the second. In general, speaking about the "assault group", it meant the use of special units to work with tanks, in conjunction with a single tank base, for example, the T-90, BMPT, BMO-T (or rather, a modified heavy armored personnel carrier based on the BMO-T), in any ratio.

              Gorgeous.
              The minimum tactical unit of the motorized rifle troops is the detachment (MCO). The platoon (UTC) consists of the 3 MCO + branch control. Rota (MCP) - from the 3 MSV + platoon control. Battalion (SMB) - from 3 MCP + management company, hospital, communications, etc., etc. In general, the battalion is roughly 3x3x3 = 27 BMP (BTR). Our squad now does not get into transport, therefore it is divided into 2 units and now the battalion is 6x3x3 = 54 TBTR. This will greatly contribute to savings in operation, the creation of infrastructure (another 27 boxes to build), maintenance of combat readiness ... In addition, the offices themselves will also have to be increased: if before each machine had a mechanical drive with a commander (who do not go outside) and landing forces (8 -10 people.), Now we will need to leave two people in the other car too. + 54 body per battalion allowance. Savings as is. MO delighted. Of course it's all easier than lengthening the body. No other “special divisions for working with tanks” will be created by anyone. The maximum that is possible is to relocate existing motorized infantrymen to a new materiel. If the BMPT enters the army widely, they will in turn become part of the tank battalion (yes, there is unification into all fields).
              Quote: Per se.
              About "loading the wounded", maybe for the tank then to do the rear ramp? No, it means that for such equipment the wounded will be taken differently, by other means, for other equipment.

              If ... even not so ... "when" among the assault fighters will appear wounded, then the nearest transport, into which they can be loaded for evacuation from the front line, will suddenly be nothing but the armored personnel carrier on which they arrived . To this must be prepared mentally and "technically."
              Quote: Per se.
              About "hemorrhoids" with alterations of tanks for heavy armored personnel carriers, this is hardly a problem, otherwise very pragmatic Israelis would not bother with alterations of T-54 / T-55 and "Centurion" tanks for heavy armored personnel carriers. Also, by the way, it made sense to lengthen the hull when converting into an ACS, and even then not always, in the photo of the "Coalition - SV" ACS on the T-90 chassis.

              The pragmatic Israelis, though they began to remake the old tanks, still got away from this by creating an “Timer” (why would it?). T-54 / 55 armored personnel carriers, etc., are ersatzas, typical temporary solutions in a military situation. And the BMO-T - the same ersatz, but already due to the manufacturer's laziness under the pretext of saving. Let us say, if you look at this nailed wheelhouse - this is just a board extended to the top, a homogeneous piece of iron. In this part of the type of resistance corresponds to the previously standing tower instead of which it will now catch all the "gifts" from the grenade throwers? And if you achieve the desired stability, then the internal volume will shrink so that the landing will consist well of 3-4 bodies (instead of those declared by 7). This is a fundamental flaw, it does not leave him (most likely, even lengthening the body). In Western tanks, the layout is not as dense and they transfer such conversions relatively more painlessly, but there are masses ... and sizes ... In this context, the Armatat has even more prospects for production as an amphibious assault vehicle than for a tank: tanks we have so much (as the officials rightly say), but there are no more protected transports ... a little more than that.
              1. 0
                12 July 2019 12: 46
                Quote: CouchExpert
                Our department is no longer in transport, so it is broken down into 2 parts.
                Yes, "gorgeous", would you have a squad of 14 or 20 people, what would you say then, do you need an "armored bus" for 20 paratroopers, that is, for 60 tons in weight? The savings did not work out, they were offended for almost all the MO, the tactical units were painted ... I know how many people are in the squad now, and I tell you again, it was about assault groups that can be specially created to work with tanks in a bunch of TBTR and BMPT. BMPT was also not in the structural unit, there was not a word about them in the charter, many "copper foreheads" from the army fell into a stupor from this one. Do you dream of riding in a T-15, flag in hand, there will also be a niche for it, if the great economies who have counted "dimes" do not skimp on the loot, the toy is expensive, and far from indisputable, for the massive equipping of our army. Thank you for your attention, let's stay with ours. Yes, dismounting from BMO-T can be seen above on the video, in the comments san4es if you have not seen live. Good luck.
                1. +1
                  12 July 2019 13: 56
                  Quote: Per se.
                  Yes, "gorgeous", would you have a squad of 14 or 20 people, what would you say then, do you need an "armored bus" for 20 paratroopers, that is, for 60 tons in weight?

                  In my 10, no more than 10. The optimal amount for small group tactics. And "if my grandmother had ..."
                  Quote: Per se.
                  The savings did not work, almost everything was offended by the Defense Ministry, tactical units were painted ...

                  Actually, not here I wanted out of savings to saw through old T-72 hulls into armored personnel carriers, reinforcing this only by the fact that the Israelis are doing this. (They also practice circumcision, for example, they practice, now we all need to "follow" too? Okay, this is a rhetorical question.)
                  Quote: Per se.
                  BMPT was also not in the structural unit, there was not a word about them in the charter, many "copper foreheads" from the army fell into a stupor from this one.

                  The introduction of BMPTs in tank units does not require major changes in terms of structure: the existing tank crews (mechanic / commander / gunner) are simply transferred from tanks to the same jobs. Training on application at the proving grounds is of course necessary. If we are talking about the version with grenade launchers, then, alas, as A. Mironov said, "you need to look for" somewhere else two.
                  Quote: Per se.
                  Do you dream of riding in a T-15, flag in hand, there will also be a niche for it, if the great economies who have counted "dimes" do not skimp on the loot, the toy is expensive, and far from indisputable, for the massive equipping of our army. Thank you for your attention, let's stay with ours.

                  Are you dreaming of riding a BMO-T assembled from a 72 T-1985 without review, normal sights and KAZ - stock up on toilet paper. I was glad to talk.
              2. 0
                14 July 2019 20: 55
                Quote: CouchExpert
                The pragmatic Israelis even began to remodel the old tanks, but nevertheless left from this by creating the "Intent" (why would it?).

                - The pragmatic Israelis just appreciated the "ersatz", the Ahzarits and the Puma, when designing the next model of the Merkava. Namer, this is a Merkava-4 tank with reinforced upper armor and a full-fledged troop compartment instead of the missing turret with a cannon and its ammunition.
                1. +1
                  15 July 2019 10: 37
                  The fact of the matter is that they, experiencing an acute need for such a technique, first used "what happened"and then (after analyzing the results of the hostilities and identifying all the pros / cons for themselves) they did "what you need"... That is precisely why there is an engine in the front, a spacious troop compartment, a convenient exit, powerful (combined armor + KAZ) protection, auxiliary weapons (instead of some "triad") ... If the "Azharites" were satisfied with everything, well, they would buy from someone else T-55s old at the price of scrap metal ... but no, they began to develop a promising platform for some reason ... This is their experience and must be taken into account. And not to take the first tank that comes across, cut down the tower from it, etc. ... We have Hitler near Moscow?
                  If we continue the comparison with Tsakhal, it’s funny to see that, unlike our inherited from the alliance of "bust" with tanks, they now have a certain "bust" with heavy landing transports (Merkava is also a "mini" BMP, although where is the mini ...). It would not hurt them now to take into account our experience in tanks (an isolated crew, AZ, shells outside the turret, less weight ...). With the "Intent" alive, it is somehow superfluous to keep such a reserve volume in each MBT.
                  1. -1
                    15 July 2019 12: 09
                    Israel did not arrange Ahzarit, but the concept of a tank for transporting infantry. The front layout as a concept of Israeli armored forces appeared long before the Akhzarites, from the 79th year when the Merkava tanks began their service (it was with them that it all started). Ahzarit and Puma happened due to the fact that the T-54/55 (formerly in service as the Tiran 4/5) and the Centurion were outdated like tanks and the question arose of remelting. At the same time, the Lebanese war confirmed the fidelity of infantry tanks (they removed towers from T-54/55 and used as armored personnel carriers) - in fact, the stage of army field trials of Akhzarita and Puma passed even before they appeared. To produce at the same factories as the Merkavas loading the plants would be both costly and non-priority (but Merkav was just not enough). Here are hundreds of obsolete tanks turned into hundreds of the latest TBTRs. By the time they began to become obsolete, Israel no longer had a shortage of Merkava tanks and a platform had already been developed that initially included the entire experience of the Akhzaritov and Pum and added experience of the front layout of the MTO Merkav to it. In the conditions of well-established modern production, buying obsolete tanks is not advisable and more expensive (in addition, T-54/55 still remained in stock).

                    Quote: CouchExpert
                    With a live "Intent" such a reserve volume in each MBT to keep
                    - It is exactly in line with the Israeli concept of ensuring the survival of crews, when each Merkava tank can pick up a crew of the wounded and provide assistance in evacuation. Israel does not have any "bust" with heavy landing transports. It would not hurt Russia now to take over the Israeli experience in tanks and take into account that it is no better to fight with women.
                    1. -1
                      15 July 2019 17: 10
                      Quote: nesmeshimenya
                      a platform that initially included all the experience of the Akhzaritov and Pum and added to it the experience of the front layout of the MTO Merkav.

                      - In reverse order, of course. The Merkava-4 platform included all the experience of the front layout of the MTO Merkav (from the 79th), and added to it the experience of the Akhzaritov and Pum (who appeared in the late 80s and in the first half of the 90s, respectively). On it they created Namer
    2. 0
      11 July 2019 23: 45
      From the beginning, it is necessary to break through its dynamic defense along with armor, and before that, active defense must be overcome - it’s simply not possible for the barmaley and the enemy’s military with ATGMs and RPGs to do this — it will even withstand 120 mm mines and shells, and large internal volumes will not allow cumulative the jets of the third and fourth generation ATGM hitting the roof, create excessive pressure inside the T 15 - the designers who created it were not stupid, thought through everything and studied the entire experience of using armored vehicles in various countries and wars.
  39. +2
    11 July 2019 14: 42
    Quote: silberwolf88
    for example SAM Shilka crushed snipers well

    shilka generally everything that moved crushed - there were even special fire support options in Afghanistan with the guidance equipment removed.
    at the test site they felt shilok against tanks (I know about the T54) - even after the line the tank became very shitty, although it didn’t hit him in the forehead.
  40. 0
    11 July 2019 14: 43
    Quote: Per se.
    These three cars are only part of what is used on the base.

    Do you have a bram? This is the most interesting option.
  41. +1
    11 July 2019 14: 49
    Quote: English tarantass
    Personally, I consider Ahzarit and Namer to be extremes. In my opinion, such machines should be in the army, but it is limited for solving rare specific problems

    it’s interesting whether it is useful to give such vehicles piece-wise to ordinary units or whether it is better to bring them into specialized groups, for example, as the Germans brought heavy tanks and tank destroyers into separate battalions and companies, which were constantly given to various larger units.
  42. +1
    11 July 2019 14: 51
    but in general, another thing is striking - while the Israelis are massively commissioning BMPTs based on t54 and carrots,
    We are upgrading BMP-2. Is our army so poor?
    1. 0
      12 July 2019 19: 06
      Yes, but didn’t you know? Even the USSR did not have enough money to completely transfer all motorized infantry to infantry fighting vehicles. What can we say about the Russian.
      Tank chassis is expensive. Some countries, for the sake of saving on tracked chassis, are switching to wheeled ...
  43. 0
    11 July 2019 14: 53
    Quote: Sancho_SP
    or buried in the trenches (which are more reliable than any armored personnel carrier).

    and mortars?
  44. +1
    11 July 2019 14: 58
    Quote: Romario_Argo
    the bottom line is that our army lacks TBTR.

    or maybe our army lacks another? reconnaissance and support equipment, including fire,
    lack of haste, when you can not rush into the city urgently, for example, surround it and stand
    lack of criminal orders when inexperienced soldiers are thrown to storm the city in ceremonial columns.
    support aircraft upon request from the ground
    human opening before the battle, as Khrulev did in the conflict with Georgia
    and BMPT have nothing to do with it?
  45. -4
    11 July 2019 15: 13
    Heavy BTR: an extremely dubious idea

    Aha-ahah - a wonderful article, the author put everything on the shelves))))
    All these heavy armored personnel carriers are good only for mercenaries - when mobilizing, the required number of heavy armored personnel carriers will NOT be dragged out by ANYONE.
    And if, under this whole concept (the mercenary’s excellent security), the entire army (all branches of the army) is re-equipped, then it turns out that the economy is capable of pulling only a very small number of units. )))
    1. +1
      11 July 2019 17: 22
      And you are probably ready at the ready of millions of foot soldiers who will go into battle with the warlock to the advantage and if that women give birth to new ones.
    2. +1
      11 July 2019 18: 01
      Right! Sorry for the horses! But women still give birth to soldiers!
  46. +7
    11 July 2019 15: 18
    Another article from a lover of tank landing.
    Quote: article
    About the uselessness of heavy armored personnel carriers

    Napoleon probably also reasoned before going to Russia about the uselessness of woolen socks, and there it was ...
    Material like "I'll throw it on the fan, and then you're there yourself somehow."
  47. +4
    11 July 2019 15: 27
    The author himself answered his own question. If the battle is fought in urban areas, then a heavy BMP is needed. And since the main battles are now due to urbanization and are conducted in an urban environment, it is likely that you need to have it as part of for example assault units.
  48. +7
    11 July 2019 15: 37
    Heavy BTR: an extremely dubious idea
    The author just skillfully decided to arrange another govnosrach and collect clicks for the site by means of a primitive sketch.
    Any idea brought to the point of absurdity turns into stupidity. The ancient Greeks called it apagogy.
    In this case, the author turned the idea of ​​TBTR into stupidity, which is good in the right place and useless in the unnecessary.
    The Israelis have long and successfully exploited this idea, because it is very suitable for their conditions.
    They started back in 1982, remaking the Centurions into Nagamshots, Nagamahons and Nakladony, and T54 / 55 captured from the Arabs - in Akharit TBTR.
    The experience was successful for specific conditions and they continue it for their specific theater of operations.
    In addition to Russia and Ukraine (BMT-72), the idea did not interest anyone else.
    Moreover, if in Israel the emergence of the TBTR class is caused by the specifics of the theater of operations, then in Russia and Ukraine - the specifics of the development of budget funds. All the difference.
    1. -1
      11 July 2019 18: 03
      Quote: Undecim
      The Israelis have long and successfully exploited this idea, because it is very suitable for their conditions.

      Judging by the fact that they are clearly going to turn TBTR into TBMP, and also are not going to replace their M113 with heavy machines, the Israelis are also not happy with TBTR.
    2. +3
      11 July 2019 18: 04
      The Germans have BMPs in mass, like our tanks. They probably do not need TBMP, because has already.
  49. +6
    11 July 2019 18: 01
    The thesis of the author is refuted by real wars. In Syria or in the Donbass, BMP \ BTRs are weighted with everything than possible, starting from sandbags to bulletproof vests, sheets of iron and beds. During an Afghan company, BMPs were urgently weighted with additional reservations. There is a theory, but there is real practice, and it shows the need for such machines!
  50. +7
    11 July 2019 18: 15
    The de facto author writes that armored vehicles are harmful in principle, and well protected even more so ... bully
  51. +7
    11 July 2019 19: 04
    The author, you yourself are doubtful with your ideas; if you had served in the infantry, you definitely wouldn’t have written something like this, and your article, commissioned by fans of the BMPT “Terminator”, is a worthy vehicle and is relevant for support in urban combat.
    All Soviet BMP1 and BMP2, BMP3 and all types of armored personnel carriers, having a number of advantages, have one significant drawback: they are easily hit by large-caliber machine guns; in the Russian army, fire support means include everything from under-barrel grenade launchers to cruise missiles, but there is not one normal means of transportation and combat escort of tanks by infantry, and the idea of ​​​​creating heavy armored personnel carriers based on a tank has been relevant since yesterday and has not yet been resolved. Israeli heavy armored personnel carriers are a way out of the situation, especially if we consider the tactics of using large such units in a modern war against a potential enemy. Even in local conflicts, such Israeli armored personnel carriers significantly reduce the loss of personnel and military equipment. To claim that a helicopter or unmanned aerial vehicle arrived and destroyed a tank or armored personnel carrier, then to combat aircraft, a motorized rifle regiment has its own air defense systems, and motorized rifle battalions used to have MANPADS, I don’t know how it is now, but earlier the SME had its own anti-aircraft missile platoon
    1. -2
      11 July 2019 19: 16
      Tanks in battle should be accompanied by artillery preparation, and not by Panzersarg in one form or another. If you attack an enemy that has not been suppressed by artillery, you will be beaten and burned, no matter how much armor you have.
      1. +6
        11 July 2019 20: 20
        Modern artillery is located at least 9-10 kilometers from the battlefield, if not more, and it is easier for infantry inside a heavy armored personnel carrier to overcome the area of ​​​​the terrain where an artillery strike, I witnessed how a howitzer shell from D2 howitzers exploded next to a BMP72 and a T30 tank, and from shrapnel in an infantry fighting vehicle the hull was broken and one of the rollers of the tank standing next to it was knocked out, this shows that if the BMP had armor like a tank, the crew would have survived
        1. -2
          11 July 2019 20: 58
          If you are being hit by artillery, it means you have neglected camouflage and dispersal. It is necessary to overcome operational and tactical mistakes, and not rely on armor.
          1. +2
            12 July 2019 04: 17
            I won’t argue, maybe we neglected camouflage, but there is also such a thing as an accidental hit with serious consequences; the incident I described occurred in 1996 in Tavildara during the civil war in Tajikistan. Just as an example, I can cite another case from the Chechen war: the destruction of 120 BMP-8s by an accidental 3 mm mine in Grozny, the mine hit between a standing vehicle with ammunition and boxes with shells laid out near it, the explosion of which destroyed all nearby BMP-3s . And this isolated incident almost affected the further career of a very good car.
            1. +1
              12 July 2019 13: 10
              You're out of luck.
              But even here this bad luck is a consequence of violating a simple rule: dispersal and camouflage. Why did you put all the infantry fighting vehicles in a pile, and next to a truck with shells? To make it easier to destroy them?
              Dispersal and camouflage! Dispersal and camouflage!
              Bessonov’s tank paratroopers didn’t even go to their kitchen en masse, so as not to be covered.
  52. -1
    11 July 2019 19: 26
    Quote: Bodypuncher
    TBMP (TBTR) are vehicles for urban combat

    as the storming of Berlin showed, for urban combat you need an ISU-152 and an infantry squad, and all armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles are tanks
    1. 0
      11 July 2019 23: 50
      Similar to ISU 152, only more powerful, I described above.
  53. +2
    11 July 2019 23: 50
    I completely agree with the author! A heavy infantry fighting vehicle is a niche vehicle. Suitable for fighting in the city, but not always there either. Mobility, maneuverability, and ease of landing are more important parameters for an infantry fighting vehicle than the thickness of the armor. The armor should be sufficient to protect against most infantry weapons. But making a car completely invulnerable is impossible. Even battleships, as you remember, made their way.

    It looks like the Chinese took the right path with their ZBD-04:


    The car received protection from 30 mm to the forehead and 12.7 to the side. It received a combat module from our BMP-3, but at the same time, with a weight of 21.5 tons, it still retained mobility and buoyancy. And the Chinese did not forget about the convenience of landing troops. Therefore, no tricks with crawling into battle on all fours (like on the BMP-3, for example). The normal, large door at the back and even the embrasures on the sides were retained by 1-2 pieces.
    1. 0
      11 July 2019 23: 58
      I didn’t read this hundred-billionth nonsense of comments. Wake up, Amoebas.

      one ampoule, in a nervously clutched hand, of a boy... and no... rockets, and civilization
      1. 0
        12 July 2019 00: 33
        Okay, don't spoil our fun. am
    2. -1
      12 July 2019 04: 26
      This is where you saw crawling out on all fours on the BMP-3, where if you run out, then at full height, but I agree that the layout is a little wrong in terms of landing on both the BMP1 and the BMP2, especially for those who sit closer to the turret. But the BMP 3 does not have this drawback, but here again the landing party is poorly positioned, two of whom must leave the vehicle through the upper hatches in front of the vehicle
      1. +2
        12 July 2019 22: 01
        Quote: Parvis Rasulov
        This is where you saw crawling out on all fours on a BMP-3, where if you run out then at full height

        Is it full-length like in this photo?

        The one on the left managed to straighten up, and the one on the right shows how to actually get out... And note that all these hatches/half-doors still need to be opened by someone.
    3. +2
      12 July 2019 14: 05
      We have exactly the same car, it’s called Kurganets! In general, the increase in the size of combat vehicles is a natural process, people become larger with each generation, and besides, now soldiers are dressed in body armor, which was not the case in the 60s. Therefore, there needs to be more space behind the armor, exits should be wider and higher. and more convenient.
      1. +1
        12 July 2019 22: 05
        Quote: Bodypuncher
        We have exactly the same car, it’s called Kurganets!

        Yes sir! Both “Kurganets” and “Dragoon” only they don’t “exist” yet, and so far they have only been shown and offered at exhibitions. Manufacturers are also aware of some disadvantages of the BMP-3 for landing troops. Unfortunately, the army has not shown much interest so far. (although they say both cars are still very crude)
    4. 5-9
      0
      12 July 2019 14: 18
      With such weight and such a form of VLD, how does she have protection from a 30 mm shot to the forehead? Or shells from the 80s?
      1. 0
        12 July 2019 22: 17
        Quote: 5-9
        With such weight and such a form of VLD, how does she have protection from a 30 mm shot to the forehead?

        The Chinese are sure that there is. And in the basic version. And there is also a set of mounted armor, while the weight reaches 28 tons and it stops floating. By the way, its engine is 600 hp. so there is still a margin of mobility.
  54. 0
    12 July 2019 04: 44
    Quote: wehr
    If they didn’t leave, then they like to live under the bogeyies.

    You believe that I do not know how Israel came into being and what happened during this? Want me to stick to your point of view - pay shekels. laughing

    I wonder how far you can go for money?
    1. -2
      12 July 2019 13: 10
      I don't think you have that much. laughing
      1. +1
        12 July 2019 13: 50
        Quote: wehr
        I don't think you have that much.

        Then why offer your services for money?
        1. -2
          12 July 2019 14: 18
          At least so as not to make them for free.
          1. 0
            17 July 2019 19: 13
            Quote: wehr
            At least so as not to make them for free.

            Not enough money?
            1. 0
              17 July 2019 19: 20
              The work must be paid.
              1. 0
                18 July 2019 07: 32
                Quote: wehr
                The work must be paid.

                It's not a job to love the Motherland for money.
                1. 0
                  18 July 2019 22: 03
                  Which one?
                  Please love your homeland for free.
  55. 0
    12 July 2019 06: 11
    Quote: Demon_is_ada
    One MONKA enough to blow off the armor of all along with the instruments. Comrades simply fantasize, on armor perhaps somewhere deep in the rear and even if the mechanic is normal, but I would not risk the same, dozing off under the rink.
  56. -2
    12 July 2019 06: 16
    Quote: Demon_is_ada
    One MONKA enough to blow off the armor of all along with the instruments. Comrades simply fantasize, on armor perhaps somewhere deep in the rear and even if the mechanic is normal, but I would not risk the same, dozing off under the rink.





    And where do you come from, Internet geniuses!
    1. +1
      12 July 2019 10: 26
      And where do you come from, Internet geniuses!


      Like, won’t anyone sitting on the armor be blown away by a MONK or at least a 120-mm mine onto a fragment 10 meters away?
      1. -1
        12 July 2019 11: 20
        It’s like those who ride on armor estimate their chances of survival are higher when sitting on top and not under.
        1. +1
          12 July 2019 13: 01
          Quote: Vasily199
          It’s like those who ride on armor estimate their chances of survival are higher when sitting on top and not under.


          Yes, you know, many tankers opened the hatches, because... They assessed their chances of surviving after being hit by kuma higher with open ones, they say, “the pressure difference will not smear them.” And they received massive concussions from the ensuing blast wave. And some did not wear armor, they say, “the bullet will pass right through, but with the armor it will knock off all the insides,” and they died from a small fragment in the soil. Misconceptions, even repeated hundreds of times, do not cease to be misconceptions, but only again collect payment in blood from those who are mistaken.
  57. -1
    12 July 2019 06: 25
    Quote: Cartalon
    And you are probably ready at the ready of millions of foot soldiers who will go into battle with the warlock to the advantage and if that women give birth to new ones.

    He is retired and they don’t just give you a pension. wassat
  58. 0
    12 July 2019 08: 18
    Our “Hindenburgs” are guided not by knowledge and common sense, but by fashion and desires.
  59. +1
    12 July 2019 09: 18
    Quote: Parvis Rasulov
    This is where you saw crawling out on all fours on the BMP-3, where if you run out, then at full height, but I agree that the layout is a little wrong in terms of landing on both the BMP1 and the BMP2, especially for those who sit closer to the turret. But the BMP 3 does not have this drawback, but here again the landing party is poorly positioned, two of whom must leave the vehicle through the upper hatches in front of the vehicle

  60. 5-9
    -4
    12 July 2019 14: 11
    TBTR does not make any sense at all - to have a kulemetik on an expensive one, incl. and in operation, the tank chassis is nonsense. The IDF has its own specifics.
    TBMP (T-15) makes sense only in conjunction with the T-14, and then rather for operations in a nuclear war than for the usual “most important battle of the most elite units”...
  61. -1
    12 July 2019 15: 06
    Quote: Spade
    Quote: Demon_is_ada
    BMP usually burns.

    As for the fire after the explosion ... did not come across.
    There was also a Babai controlled landmine in Pionerskoye, compacted under the asphalt long before the war, at the stage of road repair.

    So it turns out it was near Pionersky... I saw a photo with this landmine as a teaching aid and without reference to the area.
    As for undermining armor with internal fire, this is the prerogative of cumulative grenades, missiles and anti-aircraft mines. Standard anti-track and anti-bottom anti-tank mines of the SA or the RF Armed Forces, and NATO ones too, a complete “filler” when detonated under the wheels of the front axle does not often lead to a fire, not to mention the armor, like non-sheathed landmines. Mines based on standard HE shells will have a certain effect, perhaps due to the presence of good fragments with high kinetic energy. But, of course, much will depend on what is carried in the landing force.
    We traveled under armor, with the exception of marches in the heat in the summer, when there was no way to breathe in the landing party, but our armored personnel carriers were littered with mines and explosive devices, so everyone understood that in any case, if we might hide under the armor from the riflemen, then any grenade is death. Do not consider “anti-fragmentation lining” in the form of pea coats, sleeping bags and other things, as well as “spaced armor” in the form of zinc with cartridges, boxes of canned food and signal mines between the sides and the main cargo as serious protection.
    1. +1
      13 July 2019 02: 22
      There, the BMP breaks the transmission housing and the oil flows out, carrying the partition to the engine. Instead of fragments there are pieces of track. It doesn’t burn much if you don’t let it flare up, the transmission is fine, but then the engine burns very well, since everything is gone. But the armored personnel carrier amazed me with its survivability, to be honest, although it is made of cardboard compared to the infantry fighting vehicle. Apparently the clearance, the slope of the side, and the wheel itself is hollow inside, dampens the wave. I know that the Ural tire catches all the fragments of the RGD, and it does a good job of extinguishing the wave. Although, depending on your luck with the detonation, you will catch the outer edge or the inner track.
  62. +6
    12 July 2019 16: 32
    The author expresses an interesting opinion, especially for me, a combat veteran and serving on Merkava tanks and various armored personnel carriers, but there is always a but.
    Moreover, I read all the author’s articles and most of them in my personal library.
    The author’s mistake, or rather the blind equation of tactics and strategy of the Russian Armed Forces and the Israeli Army, because we, Israel, like no one else, have enormous experience in conducting combat operations in urban (urbanized) conditions, and many can learn from us.
    For some reason, the author did not say that in our country not a single armored personnel carrier/infantry fighting vehicle operates alone, and I am sure the same is true in Russia, but they act together with tanks and various robots and UAVs, of various classes and armed, as well as special forces and snipers. I myself was recently at an exercise in Tseelim-Mali, this is a city for training in an urban environment, I saw a lot of new things, and was pleasantly surprised, I even told my colonel that we should shoot a science-fiction film here in the style of “Star Wars”, since at 80 % of the combat missions were carried out by combat robots, and then we blocked and created “green zones”, we are tankers and motorized infantry with snipers. What the author writes about artillery preparation has not been done in Israel for a long time, it is not effective. The article is frankly empty, without a detailed analysis, It’s a pity, although many of the author’s articles are original and interesting.
    1. -1
      12 July 2019 20: 02
      Thank you for your review and flattering words.
      I plan to amuse you with a more informative and detailed article.

      It would be possible to discuss with you, but I don’t see that you are ready for this.
      1. +3
        12 July 2019 20: 13
        Not at all dear, I am only happy with criticism, but only reasoned and with facts, I also accept opinion and vision but not fantasy, besides, as I wrote above, you have an excellent style and arguments, I judge from your other articles, but this article, I believe that this is a prelude to something more, you have cast a net, and are waiting for a storm, an intellectual storm, because so respectable. I will really be glad to communicate, without any jingoistic slogans and obscenity.
        1. -1
          12 July 2019 20: 23
          So much sarcasm! laughing
          I won't criticize you. Do you think I'm going to teach you how to fight? No. I am interested in the other side: the relationship between the goals of war, strategy, tactics and characteristics of military equipment.
    2. -4
      13 July 2019 20: 50
      I myself was recently at an exercise in Tseelim-Mali, this is a city for training in an urban environment, I saw a lot of new things, and was pleasantly surprised, I even told my colonel that we should shoot a science-fiction film here in the style of “Star Wars”, since at 80 % of combat missions were carried out by combat robots, and then we blocked and created “green zones”, we are tankers and motorized infantry with snipers. What the author writes about artillery preparation has not been done in Israel for a long time, it is not effective


      Estimate how the Israeli Army will look against a serious enemy (approximately one level)
      And now all this “movie” will end very quickly.
      The IDF has been fighting in very specific conditions for the last decades
      against an adequate opponent this experience is not entirely applicable

      The author’s mistake, or rather the blind equation of tactics and strategy of the Russian Armed Forces and the Israeli Army,


      Not really - there was no “blind equalization”.
      1. +4
        13 July 2019 21: 07
        I don’t need to pretend, until now Israel has won all the wars, but there were very serious opponents or you have forgotten history.
        Where have you read science fiction, specific conditions, these are real conditions of a highly dynamic battle, or do you, as the author, propose an artillery attack then a missile assault strike, or better yet, drop a nuclear bomb at 10-20 kT, and then go drink beer. You, like the author, think about military tactics and strategy the late USSR, and if it worked during the assault on fortified areas and cities like Königsberg and Berlin, then it will not work here, due to low efficiency and large civilian losses, and they will be very large.
        It is our non-standard approach that gives us an advantage.
        1. -2
          13 July 2019 21: 15
          Israel won all the wars, but there were very serious opponents or you forgot history.


          1 WHO IS THIS???
          In terms of their numerical composition, Syria and Egypt, which were different there, looked monstrous.
          BUT - this is the Third World.
          Third World Armies
          They have no intelligence, no counterintelligence, no organization
          Not a damn thing at all.
          Chaos and chaos.
          But at the beginning of the conflict there were a lot of tanks and planes!

          2 But countries like Iraq (Saddam’s) / Iran are much more dangerous for Israel.
          therefore, Israel has done/is doing everything to destroy them with the wrong hands.

          It is our non-standard approach that gives us an advantage.


          Israel, without nuclear weapons, “wouldn’t have pulled it off against Saddam.”
          And against Iran - the same picture...

          , these are real conditions of highly dynamic combat,


          Just imagine - Iran has deployed a full-blooded invasion army on your border.
          Go and give them “highly dynamic battles”.
          They will crush you (without nuclear weapons) with great losses, but they will crush you into a pancake.


          This is why Israeli diplomacy is constantly working to “attack Iran against the United States.”
          1. +4
            13 July 2019 21: 35
            Reminds me of the parable where they wave their fists after a fight.
            Learn history, dear, and most importantly, draw conclusions based on facts and arguments, and not the stereotypes of Soviet propaganda, I wish you good luck.
            1. -1
              14 July 2019 08: 12
              Reminds me of the parable where they wave their fists after a fight.


              What are you talking about? smile

              Learn history, dear, and most importantly, draw conclusions based on facts


              Universal advice
        2. -1
          14 July 2019 00: 06
          What serious opponents were there? Germans, or what?
          1. +3
            14 July 2019 01: 12
            Those who were trained and trained in the USSR Ministry of Defense, friends and brothers for a century, did have slogans, or will you deny it?
            1. -1
              14 July 2019 08: 36
              Those who were trained and trained in the USSR Ministry of Defense, friends and brothers for a century, did have slogans, or will you deny it


              And what are you talking about?
              Israel then (and now) is an ally of the United States
              There was the Cold War and all that.
          2. +4
            14 July 2019 01: 28
            History is a very accurate argument.
            You state so pathetically and arrogantly:What serious opponents were there? Germans, or what?
            This reminds me of the neglect of the General Staff of the Red Army regarding the war with Finland, at the beginning it was the same, but we will throw them with one left and our hats, the result is very sad.
            Losses of the Red Army:According to the roll-call lists compiled in 1949 — 1951 by the General Directorate of Personnel of the USSR Ministry of Defense and the General Staff of the Ground Forces, the losses of the Red Army in the war were as follows:
            died and died of wounds at the stages of sanitary evacuation - 71;
            died in hospitals from wounds and diseases - 16;
            missing - 39.

            In total, 126 troops were irretrievable losses on these lists.

            Losses of the Finnish army, which was much weaker and small in number:Modern information about the circumstances of the death of Finnish military personnel[133]:
            16 725 died in battle, the remains were evacuated;
            3433 died in battle, the remains are not evacuated;
            3671 died in hospitals from injuries;
            715 died for non-military reasons (including from illness);
            28 died in captivity;
            1727 went missing and declared dead;
            the cause of death of 363 troops is unknown.

            A total of 26 Finnish military personnel were killed

            This is one example of arrogance and neglect.
            1. -1
              14 July 2019 01: 32
              Whether the Palestinians have been trained or not, they do not know how to fight.

              Finland had to admit defeat and give up the territory along with the defensive line they had spent money on.
              1. +4
                14 July 2019 01: 42
                Whether the Palestinians have been trained or not, they do not know how to fight.

                That means you are bad teachers.
                Finland had to admit defeat and give up the territory along with the defensive line they had spent money on.
                We are not talking about what the Finns gave, but what the price of this adventure was, and the price is very high, rest in peace to the fallen soldiers.
                1. -2
                  14 July 2019 01: 45
                  Rather, they are bad students.

                  War is war, there are no unnecessary victims.
                  1. +4
                    14 July 2019 01: 53
                    War is war, there are no unnecessary victims.
                    As you so easily wrote, we have an axiom - the life of every person is important, and you claim that sacrifices, and in vain ones at that, are the norm.
                    Those who have been in combat and have undergone more than one operation, including myself, categorically disagree with you, be more punctual.
                    1. -2
                      14 July 2019 01: 56
                      If you go to war, then be mentally prepared for injury or death. An army that is afraid of losses is a cowardly army.
                      Vain victims from tactical mistakes.
                      1. +4
                        14 July 2019 02: 14
                        You are a great tactician and strategist if you say so.
                        An army that minimizes or eliminates personnel losses is very strong and effective, and this is a very strong moral and psychological argument, as well as loyalty and motivation.
                        And you don’t need to throw a lot of brains at them with corpses.
                      2. -1
                        14 July 2019 02: 18
                        That is, until you meet an opponent whose tactical level is enough to kick your ass. You got kicked in Lebanon, didn't you?
                      3. +3
                        14 July 2019 02: 24
                        I strongly recommend studying history so that there are no various clichés and propaganda. I advise you to read a resource where there is very accurate information on all wars and losses of the Israeli army, Waronline.org
                      4. -2
                        14 July 2019 02: 52
                        As I already answered to your propaganda colleague, you do not pay me shekels to adhere to your point of view. laughing
                      5. +3
                        14 July 2019 02: 59
                        Do I force you, you wanted to discuss, and you start running from one extreme to another, what does a colleague in Propaganda have to do with it, and who is he?
                      6. -2
                        14 July 2019 14: 46
                        Colleagues in the comment thread above.

                        Well, you seemed to be offering a meaningful discussion. But it turned out to be an arrogant teaching. If so, then I’ll take out of my holster some tricks of the good old Israeli “Megaforum”. laughing
                      7. -1
                        14 July 2019 08: 33
                        You are a great tactician and strategist if you say so.
                        An army that minimizes or eliminates personnel losses is very strong and effective,


                        Once again - when the enemy’s level of organization is somewhere in the previous era -
                        you can hit him any way you like
                        Either left or right
                        Be it with your foot or with your hand
                        And take care of your own and demonstrate new techniques

                        Against a strong army it would be a completely different war.
                        And with losses and failures.
                        And the task will be one - to survive
                2. -2
                  14 July 2019 08: 27
                  Whether the Palestinians have been trained or not, they do not know how to fight.

                  That means you are bad teachers.



                  1 Well, we cannot be more Arabs than the Arabs themselves...

                  2 Once again - against the Egyptian-Syrian hordes, Israel had a huge qualitative advantage
                  Sometimes it didn't work, but most of the time it worked.
                  First World Army vs Third World Army

                  3 I (being an adequate person) have never written anywhere that the IDF sucks.
                  Moreover, it is quite obvious that the experience of the IDF should be studied (a strong fighting and mostly successful army).
                  And unlike the US ARMY, Israeli ground forces know how to fight

                  Only pluses

                  4 BUT

                  But - once again - against Saddam's army or Khomeini's army - without nuclear weapons the chances would not be great

                  Not because the IDF sucks, but because the enemy is not only bigger, but also relatively well organized.

                  Although, against Iraq in its best years and against Iran, Israel would inevitably have a qualitative superiority
                  But not so overwhelming anymore.
                  And there would no longer be such brilliant victories.
            2. -2
              14 July 2019 08: 16
              This reminds me of the neglect of the General Staff of the Red Army regarding the war with Finland, it was the same at the beginning, but we’ll throw them with one left and our hats


              So what does the Winter War have to do with it?
              I never stated that the Red Army of 39 is a role model.

              Moreover - "Hot Summer 1941-42"
              https://topwar.ru/96646-zharkoe-leto-1941-42-chast-1.html
              https://topwar.ru/96647-zharkoe-leto-1941-42-chast-2.html

              My clear opinion about the Red Army and its valiant command at the beginning of the Second World War
  63. -1
    12 July 2019 20: 30
    I agree with the author: taking infantry to places where tank armor is required for survival is a bad idea. Instead of a TBTR, it is better to make a tank (with a normal gun, not a 20-57 mm) or self-propelled gun, which will ensure that there is no need for a TBTR.
    Loopholes in infantry fighting vehicles, IMHO, play a purely psychological role (like “I influence something”, and not “They are taking me somewhere in a tin can, everything is bad around me, but I can’t do anything about it”).
    An infantry fighting vehicle differs from an armored personnel carrier in the presence of tasks to support infantry and follow tanks during an attack (it must be guaranteed to hold fragments of the fire shaft, which is a little more than 0.5 km away). The second difference is the low price of armored personnel carriers, caused by the fact that all infantry must be provided with them (otherwise they will not make it anywhere, as in 1941). Which, in turn, means the widespread use of civilian components in the design. Therefore, the idea of ​​​​installing a cannon on an armored personnel carrier is doubtful: a cannon is an expensive thing (compared to a KPVT and the price of an old armored personnel carrier in general), so if a cannon is needed, then it is better to immediately make an infantry fighting vehicle (IMHO, of course): it will not be much more expensive, but it will increase opportunities and protection.
    KAZ on an armored personnel carrier is not a very good idea: it will be minced infantry. On the other hand, an ATGM triggered on an armored personnel carrier will not pat the infantry on the head either.
    A large arsenal of anti-tank weapons is not a reason to abandon tanks and armored personnel carriers. The advent of guided weapons has caused a widespread crisis in the combat platform, but no one is abandoning aircraft and ships, although both are destroyed by one missile (in the case of an aircraft, even carried by an infantryman). And they don’t refuse bulletproof vests either, although they don’t always save you. What will you fight with? AK and regimental gun instead of a tank? Lots of PT equipment? Don't let them use it. Or stamp a bunch of armored vehicles. I have a suspicion that the T-62 costs less than the Javelin.
    >The Battles of Kursk and the Mannerheim Lines are over.
    Yes, schazzz... You will also say that nuclear war is not relevant.
    >Mn... so the only difference between heavy armored personnel carriers is the ability to withstand an ATGM hit and a larger land mine explosion.
    Even a tank can't hold either one or the other.
    Instead of a TBTR, make an armored trailer attached to the tank. Advantages: cheap, there is a tank, they will shoot at the tank (since it is much more dangerous). The downside is that the trailer will reduce the speed and maneuverability of the tank.
    1. +2
      12 July 2019 23: 14
      Quote: bk0010
      Instead of a TBTR, make an armored trailer attached to the tank. Advantages: cheap, there is a tank, they will shoot at the tank (since it is much more dangerous).

      "Nothing new under the moon!" (With)

      In the photo - Sokolov's armored sleigh. the first TBTR prototype in tow. good
      1. -2
        13 July 2019 07: 58
        Instead of a TBTR, make an armored trailer attached to the tank.

        It is precisely this option that allows old tanks to be used almost without modification as “urban” armored personnel carriers. Especially if you move the tank controls and surveillance devices to the trailer and replace the gun with a jet pneumatic flamethrower - firing a projectile automatically is, in practice, unrealistic, and the flamethrower only needs remotely controlled valves.
      2. +4
        13 July 2019 09: 08
        In! good Yes, this is simply an ideal army transport (from the point of view of the author’s arguments)! It’s easy to jump off at any time! Shoot on the go - no problem! And the review is simply magnificent! But it doesn’t even consume fuel, but it costs pennies! And probably everyone who was lucky enough to have such a ride would speak only positively about this miracle in their memoirs (due to self-evidence). Why, why is there still no such useful thing in the arsenal of our army? Where are the generals looking?
    2. 0
      13 July 2019 15: 46
      Already done is called T 15.
  64. Quote: Ka-52
    Zemo Kwiti

    you are narrowing the functions of infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers)
    Combat regulations of the ground forces
    The offensive
    Depending on the mission being performed, the nature of the terrain, enemy actions and other conditions, the platoon (squad) can advance on foot (on skis in winter), in infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers) or by landing in tanks, depending on the situation and assigned tasks.
    Infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers), depending on the situation and the decision of the platoon commander, can operate together with squads, as part of a fire or maneuver group (group of combat vehicles (GMV).
    Depending on the mission being performed, the nature of the terrain, enemy actions and other conditions, the platoon (squad) can advance on foot (on skis in winter), in infantry fighting vehicles (armored personnel carriers) or by landing in tanks, depending on the situation and assigned tasks.
    http://topuch.ru/boevoj-ustav-suhoputnih-vojsk/index8.html
    Not only the transportation of troops, but also its fire support, but also the conduct of combat operations from behind armor, but also the creation of a fire or maneuver group (a group of combat vehicles (GMV), but also supply functions, but also evacuation functions, etc. .d.
    Reinforced armor will not be superfluous.
    1. -1
      13 July 2019 15: 53
      Russia already has similar vehicles: Typhoon - U, K, V, for urban combat they created the T 15, with a decent protection complex and thick armor, and also created a medium-weight infantry fighting vehicle Kurganets 25, which can float just like the T 15, It has a complex of active protection, including against IEDs and mines with a magnetic fuse - all that remains is to wait until all this goes en masse to the troops.
  65. -3
    13 July 2019 21: 39
    Quote: Vadim237
    Shitty

    Ukrainian, however laughing
    1. 0
      14 July 2019 20: 46
      Judging by the rupture, it was ordinary low-alloy steel - passed off as armored steel.
  66. +2
    13 July 2019 22: 16
    Populist complete nonsense. Just the opposite, but lightly armored armored personnel carriers are better?
  67. +1
    13 July 2019 22: 18
    Quote: bk0010
    I agree with the author: taking infantry to places where tank armor is required for survival is a bad idea. Instead of a TBTR, it is better to make a tank (with a normal gun, not a 20-57 mm) or self-propelled gun, which will ensure that there is no need for a TBTR.
    Loopholes in infantry fighting vehicles, IMHO, play a purely psychological role (like “I influence something”, and not “They are taking me somewhere in a tin can, everything is bad around me, but I can’t do anything about it”).
    An infantry fighting vehicle differs from an armored personnel carrier in the presence of tasks to support infantry and follow tanks during an attack (it must be guaranteed to hold fragments of the fire shaft, which is a little more than 0.5 km away). The second difference is the low price of armored personnel carriers, caused by the fact that all infantry must be provided with them (otherwise they will not make it anywhere, as in 1941). Which, in turn, means the widespread use of civilian components in the design. Therefore, the idea of ​​​​installing a cannon on an armored personnel carrier is doubtful: a cannon is an expensive thing (compared to a KPVT and the price of an old armored personnel carrier in general), so if a cannon is needed, then it is better to immediately make an infantry fighting vehicle (IMHO, of course): it will not be much more expensive, but it will increase opportunities and protection.
    KAZ on an armored personnel carrier is not a very good idea: it will be minced infantry. On the other hand, an ATGM triggered on an armored personnel carrier will not pat the infantry on the head either.
    A large arsenal of anti-tank weapons is not a reason to abandon tanks and armored personnel carriers. The advent of guided weapons has caused a widespread crisis in the combat platform, but no one is abandoning aircraft and ships, although both are destroyed by one missile (in the case of an aircraft, even carried by an infantryman). And they don’t refuse bulletproof vests either, although they don’t always save you. What will you fight with? AK and regimental gun instead of a tank? Lots of PT equipment? Don't let them use it. Or stamp a bunch of armored vehicles. I have a suspicion that the T-62 costs less than the Javelin.
    >The Battles of Kursk and the Mannerheim Lines are over.
    Yes, schazzz... You will also say that nuclear war is not relevant.
    >Mn... so the only difference between heavy armored personnel carriers is the ability to withstand an ATGM hit and a larger land mine explosion.
    Even a tank can't hold either one or the other.
    Instead of a TBTR, make an armored trailer attached to the tank. Advantages: cheap, there is a tank, they will shoot at the tank (since it is much more dangerous). The downside is that the trailer will reduce the speed and maneuverability of the tank.

    Some kind of porridge
    1. 0
      13 July 2019 23: 36
      This is what I wanted to say after reading about 150 comments. While I was reading, I didn’t think of pulling the quotes I’m responding to.
  68. -1
    14 July 2019 08: 42
    Where have you read science fiction, specific conditions, these are real conditions of a highly dynamic battle, or do you, as the author, propose an artillery attack then a missile assault strike, or better yet, drop a nuclear bomb at 10-20 kT, and then go drink beer


    So just think about it - it’s the end of the 80s and Israel is forced to fight Iraq one-on-one
    (military science fiction!)
    There would be artillery raids and missile strikes and nuclear weapons at 10-20 kT
    Otherwise, no way. request

    Don’t confuse war with police and anti-terrorist operations

    or imagine a full-scale one-on-one confrontation with Iran today.
    (Spoiler - there will be no Star Wars)
  69. +2
    14 July 2019 18: 23
    The author smeared “porridge on the table” and said nothing, and this is not surprising because his command of the issue is very poor. The answer to the question is simple - heavy armored personnel carriers are necessary, and light ones are also necessary. It's all about the reasonable sufficiency of the various components. In the presence of local conflicts with semi-partisan formations for which there are “many” tanks, and “few” BMP-1;2, armored personnel carriers -80. But heavy armored personnel carriers will be just right. So discussions about artillery support and other carpet bombings look simply ridiculous
  70. +1
    14 July 2019 21: 03
    - However, a fascinating discussion! People who use TBTR versus people who have only seen them in pictures... Amazing! wassat
  71. 0
    14 July 2019 21: 41
    Quote: Saxahorse
    M113 armored personnel carrier destroyed by an AGM-114 Hellfire ATGM hit

    The photo shows the armor, broken internal ATGM explosion.
  72. +1
    15 July 2019 06: 24
    Quote: CTABEP
    Quote: Vasily199
    It’s like those who ride on armor estimate their chances of survival are higher when sitting on top and not under.


    Yes, you know, many tankers opened the hatches, because... They assessed their chances of surviving after being hit by kuma higher with open ones, they say, “the pressure difference will not smear them.” And they received massive concussions from the ensuing blast wave. And some did not wear armor, they say, “the bullet will pass right through, but with the armor it will knock off all the insides,” and they died from a small fragment in the soil. Misconceptions, even repeated hundreds of times, do not cease to be misconceptions, but only again collect payment in blood from those who are mistaken.

    What is your relationship with infantry fighting vehicles to the army and combat operations?
  73. 0
    16 July 2019 21: 29
    There is an opinion that the call for an inadequate variety of armored vehicles, and equally small arms, is sabotage, and a clear desire to complicate the life of rear services, repair companies, and ordinary soldiers.
  74. 0
    24 July 2019 15: 14
    There must be a TBTR. Look at the chronicles of the Afghan and Chechen wars: all the infantry sits “on armor.” At the risk of being hit by machine gun/machine gun fire. And why all? So that when fired from an RPG you do not end up in a “mass grave” of a destroyed light armored personnel carrier. This is what the “cords” are for. You cannot suppress enemy sabotage groups with artillery, they move.
    And in case of a missed attack, the shooters will survive. (This does not negate the need for operational air cover, etc.)
  75. 0
    20 August 2019 22: 03
    Before tackling such a topic, the author needs to be under mortar fire and hear the whistle of enemy machine gun bullets above his head. See with your own eyes the armor of an MTLB or BMP pierced by shrapnel and bullets. Sorry, but you apparently don’t know the word “caponier”. And you discuss such topics. Life didn't start with us. As soon as the Second World War ended, the adequate state of the USSR began producing armored personnel carriers. You cannot drive the queen of the fields under bullets without protection. In defense, armored shields were used. Do you know about this? The artillerymen also asked at one time to increase the thickness of the shield. Nobody wants to die because of the stupidity and shortcomings of designers. Do you know why the BMP has cartoonish armor? The vehicle was created for war using weapons of mass destruction. A machine for clearing an area. For local wars, this machine is,,so-so,,. “Mass grave of infantry,” is the nickname this equipment has had since Afghanistan. Then, by the way, measures were already taken. For example, “beyond the river,” they put armor plates on the chassis. And, locally, they covered the tower and sides with boxes of sand. I repeat, soldiers don’t want to die because of idiots, neither now nor then. This is ridiculous to discuss. Of course, the armor of infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers must be serious. And Israel has a lot to learn in terms of creating and using armored personnel carriers. They take care of their soldiers. And if they produce heavy armored personnel carriers, they certainly know what they are doing. You can and should learn from them. And don’t discuss this topic, but produce your own TBTRs. Yesterday.