Tv "Panther". A little more about the "Panzerva cat"

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In this article, we will consider some aspects of the combat potential of the German tanks TV "Panther".





About armor


As is known, the German medium tanks during the war years received a differentiated reservation. It quickly became clear on the battlefields that armor in 30 mm was completely inadequate, but T-III and T-IV were relatively light machines: it was not possible to significantly increase their armor in all projections. Simply put, either the improvement would be too insignificant, or the weight of the car would exceed the capabilities of the engine, chassis and transmission, causing the tank to drastically lose in mobility and reliability. So the Germans found a relatively good way out - they only significantly increased the frontal projection of their tanks, with the result that the same T-IV had a thickness of individual nose parts of the hull up to 80 mm, and a tower forehead - up to 50 mm, while the sides of the hull and the towers covered no more than 30-mm armor.

And the newest tank "Panther", in fact, received protection according to the same concept: the forehead of the hull was protected by completely unkillable 85-mm armor, and also at rational angle of inclination (55 degrees), the thickness of the tower in the frontal projection reached 100- 110 mm, but the boards and feed were protected only by 40-45-mm armor plates.

There is no doubt that for T-III and T-IV, such differentiation of armor was fully justified, and, in fact, the only way to “tighten” their protection to modern requirements, even if only partially. But how justified is the use of the same principle on the "Panther", a tank that was created already during the Great Patriotic War? In the comments to the discussion of the articles in the series “Why T-34 lost to PzKpfw III, but won against Tigers and Panthers”, rather contradictory opinions were expressed on this subject: someone thought it was a mistake, someone - on the contrary, with a glimpse of German genius constructors. Try to understand this in more detail.

A small reservation. It is well known that, approximately since the summer of 1944, the quality of German tank armor for objective reasons has deteriorated sharply - to put it simply, the Germans lost control over the deposits of raw materials necessary for its production. Of course, this immediately affected the security of the German armored vehicles, and therefore it is customary to distinguish the armor protection of the "early" and "late" "Panthers" and other tanks. So, in this article we will focus exclusively on the perfectly protected "racially correct" "Panthers" of the early editions, since all the statistics and research given below were conducted in 1943.

So, the first question - did the Germans themselves believe that the Panther’s armor protection was optimal and fully responded to current challenges? The answer will be the most that is negative, because already at the end of 1942, many Wehrmacht military men expressed doubts about the quality of its armor protection. And in December 1942, the founders of MAN, the designers of the Panther company, began designing a more seriously protected modification of the Panthers - it was supposed to reinforce the frontal sheet from 85 to 100 mm, and the sides - from 40-45 mm to 60 mm. Strictly speaking, so began story “Panthers II”, because initially under this name it was supposed to produce practically the same “Panther”, but with enhanced booking, and only later decided to strengthen the tank’s weapons as well. And before that, it was assumed that the “Panther II” with the same cannon, but with improved armor, would go into series as soon as it was ready, replacing the “Panther” ausf.D.

Question two: to what extent did the armor protection of the German "cat" correspond to the level of the PTO of the Red Army in 1943? Let's not forget that the power of VET is made up of many components, the main of which are the quality of the equipment and the combat ability of the soldiers and officers serving it. So let's start with combat skills. How can it be expressed?

The fact that the Panthers had almost the ultimate defense of frontal projection, but relatively weak sides, was well known in the Red Army. Therefore, the main indicator of the professionalism of our troops is precisely the ability of anti-tankists to choose a position, etc., in order to hit the Panthers in relatively vulnerable boards and aft.

About striking "Panther"


The most interesting data on this topic was presented by the respected M. Kolomiets in the book “Heavy tank“ Panther ””. In 1943, the German troops launched a very strong counterattack near Oboya, as a result of which our troops of the Voronezh Front had to fight fiercely defensive battles. And, when the guns died down, a group of highly qualified officers of the Armed Forces Test Vehicle arrived at the break-through area along the Belgorod-Oboyan highway (30 at 35 km). Their goal was to study and analyze damage to the Panther tanks, which were shot down during defensive battles.

In total, a padded tank was examined by 31. Of these, 4 tanks failed for technical reasons, another was stuck in a trench, three were blown up by mines, and one was destroyed by a direct hit by a bomb. Accordingly, tank and anti-tank artillery was destroyed by 22 "Panthers".

In total, the 22 of Soviet shells hit these 58 Panthers. Of these, 10 landed in the front armor of the hull, and everyone ricocheted - no such tank failed from such hits. 16 shells hit the turret, a number of them gave punctures through, but the commission considered only the Panthers 4 to be incapacitated from damage by the towers. But in the board came the maximum hits - as many as 24, it was they who caused the failure of 13 German tanks. Our anti-tank crews managed to slam 7 shells into the stern of the Panther, which knocked out 5 tanks, and one last hit hit the cannon on one of them.

Tv "Panther". A little more about the "Panzerva cat"

A Soviet officer at the downed "Panther" 39-th tank regiment (side number 535). July 1943 of the year. The tank received two holes 76-mm projectiles in the left side of the hull (figure 2) and two 45-mm holes in the starboard side of the tower (figure 1)


Thus, it turns out that of the total number of 41,4% fired into the German tanks fell into the Panther aircraft. And here comes the interesting question. The fact is that according to the report of the Central Research Institute No. 48, compiled in 1942, on the basis of a survey of 154 T-34 tanks with armor protection, 50,5% of the total number of shells hit these tanks.

In the comments to the articles of this cycle, it was repeatedly mentioned that this result is a consequence of the excellent training of German anti-tankists, combined with poor visibility of the 1942 T-34s and earlier years of release, as well as the weakness of the tactical training of Soviet tank crews. But now take the first-class trained German crews and Panthers, the visibility of which seems to be beyond praise. And what will we see? From the total number of hits:

1. In the frontal part of the body "Panther" had 17,2%, and for the T-34 - 22,65%. That is, German anti-tankists in the most well-protected part of the corps in 1942 were more likely to fall than their Soviet counterparts in 1943.

2. The Panther tower had almost 27,6%, and the T-34 tower had 19,4%.

3. The sides of the Panther hull had 41,4% of all hits, and the sides of the T-34 - 50,5%.


A padded "Panther" with a 445 turret number from the 51 tank battalion of the Grossdeutschland division at an emergency vehicle collection point. Central Front, August 1943. Under the number you can see the silhouette of a walking panther, and in the side of the tower there are two holes from 76-mm armor-piercing shells.


That is, in both cases, we see that one projectile falling into the frontal part of the body accounted for the 2-2,4 projectile that hit the sides of the tanks - and this value tends to 2,4 for the Panthers.

Of the total number of "Panthers" hit by artillery fire, 59% was hit in the boards. For T-34, which participated in the Stalingrad operation, this figure was 63,9%, and in the Berlin operation - 60,5%. That is, again, the numbers are close.

Of course, one cannot make far-reaching conclusions based on this statistics. Nevertheless, the panther's padded 31 was not a very representative sample, and, again, the Germans lost their tanks during an offensive operation, and part of the T-34 could have been hit during defensive operations. But in general, the similarity of the above figures indicates that the designers of the tank, intended for use in the offensive and for breaking through the enemy defenses, cannot ignore the protection of the lateral projections of their offspring. And the massive defeat of tanks in the side - this is the norm of combined arms combat, and not the consequence of the tactical illiteracy of tank crews.

About sufficiency of onboard protection


So, it turns out that the Soviet “circular” booking approach in the “all on 45” style was more correct? Of course not: primarily because, in fact, even Soviet tanks had a frontal projection defended better by the sides — the difference between their defenses was less pronounced than that of German armored vehicles.

So, for example, if we look at the T-34 reservation scheme arr. 1940 g



Then we will see that the body in the frontal projection has 45 mm, but they are located at an angle 60 deg. for the top part and 53 degrees for the bottom, but the sides have either 40 mm at an angle of 40 degrees, or 45 mm, which are strictly vertical, that is, at an angle of 0 degrees. And the subsequent thickening of the sides to 45 mm, although it strengthened their protection, but still not to the level of the frontal projection. The same thing was characteristic of the KV-1 - both the forehead and sides were protected by 75 mm armor, but the frontal parts were at an angle of 25-30 hail (and even 70 hail, but there it had "only" 60 mm), but 75-mm armor plates were mounted vertically.

Thus, no doubt, the frontal projection of any tank should be better protected than the side, but where to find the right balance of protection? If you take as a model heavy tanks, then you should pay attention to the German "Tiger" and the domestic EC-2. Their sides were protected by 80-90 mm armor (for the EC-2, it reached 120 mm), placed under a small slope or even vertically. Armor of similar thickness, and even located at an angle of 0 or close to it, could not protect the tank from specialized anti-tank artillery like ZIS-2 or Pak 40, but perfectly defended field artillery against armor-piercing shells. And this, perhaps, is the reasonable maximum that can be demanded from the side armor of a heavy tank of the Second World War era. As for the average, its sides should protect against high-explosive fragmentation shells of field artillery and armor-piercing shells of small-caliber anti-tank guns.

Of course, all of the above does not mean that medium tanks cannot be used to break through enemy defenses, but it should be understood that their comparatively weak defense will lead to significantly greater losses than if heavy tanks had done the same. But, on the other hand, the average tank should be much cheaper and more technological than heavy, and produced in much larger batches, so that in relation to their total number the losses will not be so high. But the “Panther” “managed” to combine the mass of a heavy tank with the protection of an average, so that when the enemy defenses were broken through, the Panthers were doomed to suffer significantly higher losses than classic heavy tanks like the EC-2 or Tiger. Moreover, these losses could not be compensated by large volumes of output.

About Soviet anti-tankists


Let us now look at the material part of the Soviet VET. No, the author is not going to repeat the TTX of Soviet guns used as anti-tank weapons for the umpteenth time. For the analysis, we will use such an integral indicator as the average number of hits required to disable the tank.

So in 1942, according to the analysis of the Central Research Institute 48, our 154 padded T-34s got 534 hits, or 3,46 shells per tank. But in some operations this value could be more: so, during the Battle of Stalingrad, when the level of protection T-34 already hardly corresponded to the term “counter-shells”, 4,9 shells were required on average to remove the thirty-four. It is clear that some T-34 knocked out from the first hit, and some kept 17, but on average, it turned out approximately as indicated above.

However, in 1944-45, when the T-34 booking could no longer be counted as counter-missile, there were enough 34-1,5 shells to destroy one T-1,8 — the German anti-tank artillery was seriously intensified. At the same time, in the example considered above, for disabling the 22 "Panther" there were enough 58 shells, or an 2,63 projectile per tank. In other words, the status of the armor "Panther" obviously "stuck" somewhere in the middle between the "anti-bullet" and "anti-bullet."

But, perhaps, the fact is that the Hitlerite "menagerie" near Oboya destroyed the large calibers of the self-propelled gun "hunter"? Not at all. Of the 22 Panther, four were destroyed by hits of 85-mm shells, and the rest of 18-ti was enough for 76-mm and (attention!) 45-mm armor-piercing shells!



Two photos of the blacked out "Panther" with the tower number 434. July 1943 of the year. Well visible holes from 45-mm armor-piercing shells in the stern sheets of the hull and tower. At the stern visible inscription chalk "Ilyin 26 / 7"


Moreover, the latter worked surprisingly well: for example, 45-mm caliber armor-piercing shells confidently penetrated the side and aft plate of the Panther tower, the mask of its gun (on the side), in one case the upper side armor was pierced. A total of 7 45-mm caliber shells hit the Panthers, armor was pierced by 6, and the seventh destroyed the barrel of a cannon. Surprisingly, but the fact is that the only snapping 45-mm projectile managed to perforate 100 mm armor of the Panther tower!

As a matter of fact, all these calculations are still nonsense. We argue a lot about the fact that the Wehrmacht received first-class anti-tank guns for armament, and the Soviet fighters had to be mostly satisfied with “forty pliers”, and the 76,2-mm universal ZIS-3, which, with all its numerous advantages, was essentially inferior to the German Pak 40, not to mention the "monsters" KwK 42 and so on. This still imposes problems with the quality of Soviet armor-piercing shells, the presence of which cannot be denied. Of course, the Panther, for all its flaws in frontal projection, radically surpassed the T-34 in defense.

But despite such an obvious advantage, the above statistics show that, on average, German tankers and anti-tankists had to hit it one or two times in order to knock out the T-34, and two or three Soviet soldiers in the Panther. There is certainly a difference, but given that the Panther could not under any circumstances be as massive a tank as the T-34 was - should it be considered so big? And will it be right to say that the domestic VET is inferior to the German one, as many are doing now?

About ergonomics


Generally speaking, the comfort of the “places of work” of the crews of German tanks is today considered to be something beyond doubt; like Caesar’s wife, she is above all suspicion. The more fun to read, for example, the following remark about the “Panther” attached to the report of G. Guderian:

“After the third shot, the sight could not be used due to excessive smoke from the turret, which caused tears. Observation periscope is needed! ”


Probably, in the future this problem was somehow solved, but when and how - the author, unfortunately, is unknown.

And again - about the irretrievable losses


In previous articles, the author talked about the German military paradox - with very modest irretrievable losses, the German tank units had a huge amount of military equipment in repair and scanty - in combat readiness. The situation with the "Panthers" perfectly illustrates this thesis.

Take the 39 tank regiment in which there was an 5 Panther at the start of Operation Citadel (July 200). After 5 days, i.e. July 10, irrecoverable losses accounted for the 31 machine, or just some 15,5% of the original number. It would seem that the regiment practically did not lose its combat potential ... But no: the entire 38 "Panther" is combat-ready, that is, 19% of the initial number! The rest - 131 tank - under repair.

Technical reliability


A very interesting table was drawn up by M. Kolomiyts on the state of the tank fleet of the Leibstandart Adolf Hitler division for December 1943.



The numbers, I must say, are simply catastrophic in literally all parameters. Let's start with the fact that a division can formally be considered quite combat-ready - the list number of tanks ranges from 167 to 187 units. But the number of combat-ready tanks ranges from 13 to 66 units, that is, on average, it is even less than 24% of the total number.

From the point of view of combat losses, one would expect that the most well-protected and powerfully armed armored vehicles in battle would be better preserved - simply due to their fighting qualities, which increase its survival on the battlefield. However, with German tanks everything happened with exactly the opposite: the number of combat-ready "Tigers", the strongest and most well-armored tanks of the division, does not exceed 14% of the total number. For the next “Panther,” this indicator is only 17%, while for relatively weak “fours,” it reaches 30%.

Of course, it would be possible to try to blame everything on the crew’s unpreparedness, but this happened at the Kursk Bulge, and this means, firstly, about the end of 1943, and secondly, about a completely elite connection, which was “Leybshtandart Adolf Gitler". You can also recall the “childhood diseases” of the “Panzervaffe cats”, but even then you should not forget that the “Panthers” went into the series from February 1943, and in the yard, sorry, December, that is, almost a year has passed . About the children's diseases "Tigers", right, and already speak somehow uncomfortable.

In general, the above figures irrefutably indicate that the miraculous tank did not come out of the Panther, and that in 1943 this machine was not distinguished by any ultimatum protection or technical reliability. The Germans themselves believed that the Panther had become fully operational approximately since February 1944 - this is evidenced by a report from Guderian on March 4 from 1944 made by him on the basis of reports from combat units. Probably, the Panthers, produced in the period January-May 1944, and those were 1 468 units. were the best of all "Panther" Wehrmacht. But then Germany forcedly worsened the quality of the armor of its tanks, and the brief dawn was replaced by sunset.

In fact, even after February 1944, the crews of the Panther suffered from a number of technical flaws in this tank, but we will talk about them later when we compare the Panther with the T-34-85 ...

Продолжение следует ...
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  1. +16
    8 July 2019 05: 43
    Thank you interesting article for fans of armored vehicles
  2. +18
    8 July 2019 06: 56
    Good morning Andrey!

    To all the statistical calculations, who, how many times, where and how shot the tank, it is necessary to add another extremely important, but nowhere fixed and difficult to account for circumstance:
    who and how many times did not shoot in the forehead tank ("Panthers") from a long distance, as he considered it a useless waste of shells with the risk of unmasking the gun.

    in a similar way, statistics on "T-34": why not shoot him in the forehead from the "barn gates" - they will still pierce him like a sheet of paper, moreover, the "barn gates" are needed to head on from a couple of kilometers hit the enemy.

    And one more thing: it is important not only "who, how many times, where and how fired at the tank", it is also important "who, how many times, where and how" this very tank hit (I mean the percentage of the number of shots and rejection of these same shots due to uncertainty about the desired hit / hit in general, and a decrease in the rate of fire due to problems with aiming, etc.).

    Throttle response, cross-country ability and small dimensions of the T-34 are an important factor in increasing its survivability, IMHO, if they were equal to the Panther, it would be much worse.

    I do not argue with the extreme inadequacy of booking the "Panther" (for the "Panther" itself).
    1. +11
      8 July 2019 07: 28
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      I do not argue with the extreme inadequacy of booking the "Panther" (for the "Panther" itself).

      The long gun was put on the "Panther" (and "Tiger to a lesser extent) for this in order to neutralize the shortcomings of on-board protection. Long-range fire combat, as in the case of modern MBT. In general, the" Panther "is the forerunner of the European MBT. The Germans looked very far ahead breaking away from their contemporary realities, for which (including) they paid
      1. +15
        8 July 2019 08: 21
        We must not forget that from the middle of the year 43, the Germans fought (with the exception of) defensive battles, deploying tanks and self-propelled guns as anti-tank missiles. This was the main trouble of our tank crews. With the mind, the cannons and tanks placed by the Germans in defense (at points) inflicted great damage.
        Here is the story of our tankman. We speak at our point and the Tiger burns us - only someone will come out - he will crawl out of the house and hit. Already 5 tanks have been turned around. Have you thought what to do?
        One of ours says: They’re going there, I’ll go and ask for help. The tank arrived, they explained the situation, there is a tiger behind the house.
        IS2 leaves, pounds right into the house, pierces it through and the Tiger at the same time. We take 2 Germans captive that were alive. The tank driver says, sit on the barrel, if you sit on the barrel during the shot, let go, no. I will hang on this trunk. Well, they they sat down, then a tank clap shot and they fell dead. Both of them crumbled backbones from recoil ..
      2. +5
        8 July 2019 09: 41
        The battle of a tank with a tank, it certainly can be, but, let me say,

        tanks fight not on the parade ground, not in the ring, and not even on the HER map because in order to get up and shoot everyone, you first need to know the right place, then drive there and then convince the enemy to hammer it - which is very difficult, this time

        Tanks are fighting, mainly with infantry, and here three-inch Panthers are far from the best option, these are two
        1. +3
          8 July 2019 09: 51
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          this time

          Yes, not on the parade ground - the parade ground is ideal, and in order to get closer to the ideal, in addition to a long gun, good observation devices are installed, reconnaissance, methods of combat formation are being carried out (yes you yourself know everything ...)
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          these are two

          Three-inch infantry is normal for that time (necessary minimum) But, to be honest, the modern MBT as a tank of infantry escort is also not very (but not because of the gun)
          1. +3
            8 July 2019 12: 38
            the parade ground is an ideal, and in order to get closer to the ideal, in addition to a long gun, good observation devices are installed, reconnaissance, methods of combat formation are being conducted (yes, you yourself know everything ...)


            if 50 Soviet tanks were pushed onto 000 NATO tanks in the theater between the Baltic and neutral Austria, then yes - that's when the concept of "cats" rules furiously

            Attention is the question: is it not tortured to catch even with 2 "Panthers", say, 000 Soviet tanks and self-propelled guns from the same Baltic, but already to the Black Sea? - the order densities are not the same
            without a maneuver in any way, but it is with this very same maneuver that great difficulties begin

            necessary minimum


            three inches and shells for them are different)
            1. +1
              8 July 2019 13: 31
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              Attention is the question: is it not tortured to catch even with 2 "Panthers", say, 000 Soviet tanks and self-propelled guns from the same Baltic, but already to the Black Sea? - the order densities are not the same

              The answer is that they don’t suffer, they are not locusts, they do not evenly cover the territory, but with this ratio, who will catch anyone?
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              three inches and shells for them are different)

              So no one seemed to complain).
              1. 0
                8 July 2019 14: 25
                who will catch whom?


                Pantservaffe frantically rushing about to catch unpredictably attacking Soviet troops
                but who raked upon such fishing is the second question
                1. mvg
                  +4
                  8 July 2019 23: 16
                  catch unpredictably attacking Soviet troops

                  Tell this to those who were at Prokhorovka, and the lane 2 km away, on the forehead. Tanks do not drive through forests, they don’t walk along a river, and they don’t go through a swamp. There were not many highways in Russia.
                  1. 0
                    8 July 2019 23: 48
                    There is still to be noted. what is a highway in the early 40s. In fact - this is a good primer with gravel. And not like a road with asphalt right now.
                  2. 0
                    9 July 2019 00: 21
                    Prokhorovka is an exception, and this is 1943, but in 1944 everything was exactly as I wrote, systematically
                  3. +2
                    9 July 2019 00: 34
                    Oh, what a surprise, but I thought that in the south of Russia there are steppes and tanks traveled very even on them. And yet, you do not believe it, a tank can go across the field. Well, and so on. Threat, there are clearings in the forest, and through the swamps - gati wink By the way, what about your idea of ​​organizing anti-tank defense in the forest? Can you handle it?
        2. 0
          9 July 2019 21: 42
          if the tank cannot fight the tank, it is flawed ...
      3. +1
        8 July 2019 12: 28
        Quote: mark1
        the forerunner of the European MBT. N

        Exactly! However, ours came to the same later ...
        Quote: mark1
        breaking away from contemporary realities, for which (including) they paid

        Of course - the task of tanks is not only anti-tank missile defense, other tasks are more important, but for them the panther was thinner than the same T-4 ...
    2. +3
      8 July 2019 12: 26
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      since it was considered a waste of shells with the risk of unmasking the gun.

      1) Bravo! hi
      2) However, the need to shoot onboard and stern from small-caliber anti-tank missiles inevitably leads to increased losses of calculations!
      "And would it be correct to say that the domestic PTO was head and shoulders above the German one, as many are doing now?"
      alas, right! We had noticeably fewer specialized anti-tank self-propelled guns - in fact, the SU-85 and 100, partly the ISU-122 ...
      1. 0
        8 July 2019 18: 50
        We had noticeably less


        plus, but there is still a very important nuance: in 1944 the Germans were sorely lacking a mass and cheap horse-drawn PTA, capable of, albeit not very much, but in advance to cover each individual battalion on the stretched front of the division, and maneuver by anti-tank forces reserves was almost always possible only at a considerable depth from the front line -
        "Anti-tank defense is undoubtedly the saddest chapter in the history of the German infantry. The path of suffering of the German infantry in the fight against the Russian T-34 tanks ... Apparently it will remain completely unknown why for three and a half years tank T-34 in August 1941 until April 1945 was not created an acceptable anti-tank infantry means. "(c) E. Middeldorf
        1. 0
          9 July 2019 15: 00
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          in 1944 the Germans were sorely lacking a mass and cheap horse-drawn PTA,

          is it an analog of our M-42? against the T-34 it is quite ... but the Germans were drawn to gigantism ... request

          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          an acceptable anti-tank infantry system was not created

          exaggerating ... they had both artillery systems and a faus cartridge ...
          1. 0
            9 July 2019 16: 41
            No way, he cried that the Faustpatron has an extremely insufficient range, and you can’t cover it with three Pak 40 regiments - this is not enough
      2. mvg
        +3
        8 July 2019 23: 29
        We had noticeably fewer specialized anti-tank self-propelled guns - essentially SU-85 and 100

        5000 pcs Su-85 and Su-100, this is from 43 to 45 years
        the Germans, Hetzer about 2000 (many plants, it is difficult to count, and not all PT), Yagtpantera-400, Ferdinand - 100 pcs. The rest of the PT insofar as.
        1. +1
          9 July 2019 14: 54
          Quote: mvg
          5000 pcs Su-85

          Production of SU-85 2050 pieces ... (by Wiki) request
          and about 1500 SU-100s until the end of the Second World War ...
          as for the Germans, then Vicki gives:
          Hetzer - 3145
          JagdPz IV - 1977
          Jagdpanther - Xnumx
          Ferdinand - 91
          Jagdtiger - 79
          Panzerger I - 202
          Panzerger 35R - 200
          Marder I-170
          Marder 2 - 650
          Marder 3 - 975
          Nashorn-494
          Total 8410 pcs.
      3. 0
        3 September 2019 00: 52
        I’ll finish the repair of the garage and am going to write an article about German armored vehicles. More precisely about the wildest and most recent amount of nomenclature and modifications of tanks and self-propelled guns. Poor German industry, poor logistics. By the beginning of the war, the Red Army had about a dozen major brands of tanks with a small number of modifications. The Germans, however, managed to file just an insane amount of self-propelled guns alone.
        1. 0
          3 September 2019 10: 53
          Quote: Jager
          just an insane amount of self-propelled guns alone.

          They just disposed of the trophy chassis and guns. request like ours creating SU-76I
          1. 0
            5 September 2019 19: 47
            By the way, the Germans almost never used a huge amount of Soviet armored vehicles even as a chassis base.
            Take the same Pz. III, completely different cars modifications from A to N
            1. 0
              6 September 2019 14: 59
              Quote: Jager
              Germans hardly even used the chassis base.

              Well, why - T-26 without towers used as tractors, etc. ....
              1. 0
                17 September 2019 18: 35
                Compared to the total number of captured vehicles, minuscule.
    3. mvg
      +4
      8 July 2019 22: 42
      who, how many times, where and how he shot at the tank

      Very nice remark. Since the total number of TVETs in the Soviet army was many times greater. And they beat from 300 meters, since Panther shot the T-34-85 from 1,5-2 km. Learned to fight by the year 43.
      PS: I really want to see the numbers 34-85, how much is produced, how much is lost. 40 thousand tanks, you can demolish all of Europe, together with the Reichstag and the Eiffel Tower. Including Notre Dame.
  3. +5
    8 July 2019 07: 47
    Thank you, Andrew!
    Once again pleased.
  4. +2
    8 July 2019 08: 01
    But as a veteran said - a tanker about Panthers in whom they were shoved to fight as an elite. Crews were taken away and crammed into the tanks from repair.
    Of all five crew members, this was the Gunner-On, he squealed and screamed and blurred out in a satisfied smile-Guidance devices and guns were excellent. We just had to cry, spit, and scold the tank at all costs, from mech-water to the commander. The transmissions and engines were accidentally set on fire and fled back to the domestic auto industry.
    According to the results of the shelling, our specialists shook their boskami, were surprised and admired the gun But the immense surprise was caused by the fact that when the shell appeared, the lower frontal part of the body pierced and broke through, and the Germans did not correct this defect on various modifications of the Panther. As specialists said : It doesn’t look like German designers ..
  5. 0
    8 July 2019 08: 18
    Softly "combed" the panther. I should have stroked it against the grain.
  6. +4
    8 July 2019 08: 25
    Andrey, the discussion about the necessary and sufficient thickness of the side armor is certainly interesting, but how do you explain the booking scheme of the IS-4, for example? He has a side THICKER front. And I think it was created by far from stupid people who had an idea why and why they were doing it. I dare to believe I know the reason, but your version is interesting.

    PS And by the way, the whole MBT concept is just a "panther" approach to the booking scheme. Cast iron forehead, cardboard board. Those. in the end, her scheme turned out to be progressive. Even after many decades, hih.
    1. -1
      8 July 2019 13: 25
      And then these same "far from stupid people" made the IS8 (T-10), this is the same IS-4 but with less armor (if very rough).
    2. +4
      8 July 2019 18: 32
      Quote: Kuroneko
      Andrew, the reasoning about the necessary and sufficient thickness of the onboard armor is certainly interesting, but how do you explain the scheme of the EC-4 reservation, for example? He has board thicker.

      No, he has a thicker frontal projection :)))) You only look at the thickness of the armor, but you also have to look at the angles of inclination. The EC-4 has a nose 140 mm under 60 hail, and the board - 160 mm but under 0-38 hail.
      Quote: Kuroneko
      PS And by the way, the whole MBT concept is just a "panther" approach to the booking scheme. Cast iron forehead, cardboard board. Those. in the end, her scheme turned out to be progressive.

      I do not agree :))) I will try to explain with an example.
      First, the ships were wooden, then they came up with their reservation. Naturally, the entire board was defended - and this was progressive. Then, in order to penetrate armor, they increased the caliber of the guns, and it was impossible to book the entire board from such guns. Then they began to armor in narrow armored belts, which protected only the most important - machine rooms and boiler rooms, ammunition cellars. And it was progressive.
      But then medium-caliber rapid-fire guns appeared, which could riddle the unprotected tips of the ship with high-explosive shells. As a result, they began again to try to book the maximum side - and this was progressive.
      And then they adopted the concept of "only big guns", the range of combat increased, and it became clear that the hail of landmines no longer threatened the extremities, but the armor-piercing shells became very heavy. And the armor was again pulled into narrow armor belts, calling such a scheme "all or nothing" - and this was also considered progressive at that time!
      The moral is very simple - there are no progressive booking schemes, and there are those that best meet the requirements of a particular moment - taking into account the means of destruction available to the enemy. So, for the WWII period, the Panther defense was not progressive :) hi
      1. 0
        9 July 2019 21: 06
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        No, he has a thicker frontal projection :)))) You only look at the thickness of the armor, but you also have to look at the angles of inclination. The EC-4 has a nose 140 mm under 60 hail, and the board - 160 mm but under 0-38 hail.

        It is true, there is no doubt here, if you consider the reduced armor. But I didn’t quite ask about it. More likely - and why in IS-4 returned, in fact, to a circular reservation? Moreover, in the article you deduced the necessity and sufficiency of onboard booking of different tanks, specifically mentioning IS-2:
        If you take heavy tanks as a sample, then you should pay attention to the German Tiger and the domestic IS-2. Their sides were protected by 80-90 mm of armor (for IS-2 it reached 120 mm), placed at a slight slope or even vertically. Armored personnel of this thickness, and even located at an angle of 0 or close to this, could not protect the tank from specialized anti-tank artillery like the ZiS-2 or Pak 40, but they perfectly protected against armor-piercing shells of field artillery guns. And this, perhaps, is the reasonable maximum that it is possible to require from the side armor of a heavy tank of the era of World War II.

        The IS-4, I note, was developed from 43rd to 46th and based on the IS-2. Those. the designers, by the very fact of the development of this monster, have already shown their disagreement with your thesis about the "reasonable maximum" of the side armor of a heavy tank - as far as I understand it. And if it were not for the numerous difficulties and plugs in the fine-tuning process, not the requirement to drive as many IS-2s from the shops to the front as possible (well, not the creation of a largely revolutionary IS-3) - perhaps the IS-4 would have had time to fight in WWII.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        So for the period of WWII Panther defense was not progressive :)

        I do not argue with this either. I said - in fact, her MBT scheme was later adopted. For otherwise, well, there is no way to squeeze the defense and armament of a heavy tank into the mass dimensions of a medium tank (although modern western MBTs have actually become heavy tanks).
        Personally, I see that abandoning the heavy tank class was wrong in the long run. Although this is a different topic for discussion. But the Panther's defense scheme cannot be called bad, it was "only" far ahead of its time. But even the Germans served well, tk. after Stalingrad, having lost the strategic initiative, just this scheme was best suited for the defense and use of its tanks purely as an anti-tank weapon (the wildly successful Hetzer also confirms this, although he can be considered the most "Soviet" German tank destroyer - the conditions of habitability and convenience of the crew were truly domestic - as well as maintainability, coupled with manufacturability of production and price).
        1. 0
          10 July 2019 07: 50
          Quote: Kuroneko
          Rather, why did they return to the EC-4, in fact, to circular booking?

          So it is never circular. The EC-4 frontal projection is much better protected sides
          Quote: Kuroneko
          But the Panther's defense scheme cannot be called bad, it was "only" far ahead of its time.

          Can and should be. For a heavy tank, it is obviously insufficient
  7. +6
    8 July 2019 08: 46
    Quote: Kuroneko
    but how do you explain the IS-4 reservation scheme, for example? He has a side THICKER front.

    Heavy breakthrough tank operating as part of a separate heavy tank regiment to reinforce units in the direction of the main attack. The Panther is a "line tank that was used to recruit regiments of a tank division, no one created a special structure for it, no special task was set.
    Quote: Kuroneko
    And I think it was created by far from stupid people who had an idea why and why they were doing it.

    The people who create tanks - the designers - are not free artists. The main parameters of future equipment are brought to them by the customer in the person of the military. The military, in turn, form the parameters on the basis of tactics, military statistics and the prospects for the appearance of counter-weapons in the enemy. Reservation IS-4 was designed for all-round protection (except stern) from 88mm L71 guns.
    1. 0
      9 July 2019 21: 25
      Quote: DesToeR
      The people who create tanks - the designers - are not free artists. The main parameters of future equipment are brought to them by the customer in the person of the military. The military, in turn, form the parameters on the basis of tactics, military statistics and the prospects for the appearance of counter-weapons in the enemy.

      Not in this case. IS-4 was created precisely on an initiative basis, without circulars being lowered from above. Those. - The idea was from the designers themselves. The GABTU commission later gave the go-ahead for production, as I liked the project.
      In the summer of 1943, N.L. was appointed chief designer of SKB-2 at the Chelyabinsk Kirov Plant (CHKZ). Spirits. Having enough information about the state of German tank building and the prospects for its development, Spirits immediately began to promote the idea of ​​creating a new heavy tank. In his opinion, the Red Army needed a machine that was not inferior to the protection and armament of the German Tigers. In addition, it was necessary to protect the tank from all available and promising anti-tank guns. In general, the business was not easy, and there were some problems with promoting the idea. As a result, the management of ChKZ decided to develop a new project under the letter "K" on an initiative basis.

      https://topwar.ru/14412-tank-is-4-samyy-tyazhelyy-seriynyy-v-sssr.html
  8. -15
    8 July 2019 09: 13
    High technology, the basis of all German technology. For which I respect her!
    1. +2
      8 July 2019 10: 10
      And where is technological effectiveness? Tanks during the war you need a lot compare pps and mp40!
    2. +19
      8 July 2019 10: 37
      Quote: Zum
      High technology, the basis of all German technology. For which I respect her!

      Google what technology is. Panther didn’t even smell of high technology. It was the lack of technological effectiveness (read the complexity, duration and high cost of production) that were the main problem of the panther. The T-34 was highly technological, which allowed women and teenagers to produce this tank in tens of thousands ...
    3. +13
      8 July 2019 10: 53
      High manufacturability is just about Soviet technology. Since the start of production of the T-34, KV, and many other types of equipment, designers and technologists have been able to repeatedly reduce labor costs, metal consumption, and, accordingly, the cost of production. And due to this, increase production volumes with the same invested resources. The same happened with the Americans. Panther on production required several times more costs than the T-34 or Sherman, and as a result the overwhelming quantitative superiority of the Allies. For example, the monthly production of 2 factories producing Panthers reached a maximum of 257 vehicles per month, while the Uralvagonzavod alone produced 800 tanks per month. The production of IS-2 (later IS-3) in the tank city (ChKZ) reached 300 vehicles per month. As a result, a logical result.
      At the expense of "manufacturability" - we can especially say about the manufacturability and maintainability of the Panthers, and the Tigers, with their checkerboard chassis. This is a sophisticated mockery of the designers of tankers and repairmen, a true "creation" of the gloomy Teutonic genius.
    4. +3
      8 July 2019 12: 31
      Quote: Zum
      High manufacturability

      you do not understand the meaning of this word ... bully
    5. +8
      8 July 2019 13: 55
      Quote: Zum
      High technology, the basis of all German technology. For which I respect her!

      Did you know that the "Panther" (and other Fritzs until 1944) had their sides milled in order to install the final drives? Did you know that the Panther tower was cut out by the mold-makers - it was not welded? How was the tower treadmill assembled? Putting one ball at a time through a special rack ... And in order to change the middle road roller, it was necessary to disassemble half of the board, or even the entire board - from half a day to two days.
      And the torsion bars could only be tightened at the factory ... and the fluid in the recoil brake of the gun was changed only in the workshop ... and the shells that could be used only in a tank, but not in a field gun (however, this is the trouble of all German tank guns ). A mechanic with a special education was allowed to assemble the Panther.
      © uv. M.N. Svirin

      And some more good things about Panther:
      After I saw how when the Panther's engine was started from a temporary tank (a 20 liter plastic canister) gasoline was decreasing before our eyes, it was idling - I understood why German tanks could not be called the best in that war ... Guys , 700 liters of 87th gasoline for the Panther and over 1000 for the royal Tiger per hundred kilometers - nothing can be cured.
      © fvl1_01
    6. 0
      9 July 2019 21: 49
      Awesome manufacturability! And especially maintainability!
  9. 0
    8 July 2019 09: 13
    Thanks, cool article
    We look forward to continuing.
  10. +5
    8 July 2019 09: 13
    hi I hope the author will not mind if I post documents of that time from the site "Memory of the People" ,,, a piece of history smile
    Brief tactical and technical characteristics of the German trophy tank T-V / Panther /






    Maximum firing ranges at which the destruction of German tanks "Panther" is possible

    [Center]
    1. +5
      8 July 2019 09: 23
      new modernized tank of the "Panther" type 20.11.1944/XNUMX/XNUMX
      1. +3
        8 July 2019 14: 59
        The enemy tank forces have created devices for firing at night from T-V "Panther" tanks.
        1. +1
          8 July 2019 21: 05
          devices for shooting at night from T-V "Panther" tanks were created.

    2. +4
      8 July 2019 13: 37
      Brief tactical and technical characteristics of the German trophy tank T-V / Panther /
      ,, pictures are gone recourse




  11. +1
    8 July 2019 09: 34
    Very interesting and, most importantly, informative article. Thanks to the author!
  12. 0
    8 July 2019 09: 45
    the author missed the detail - 44 and 45 t-34 more powerful already = t-34-85
  13. 0
    8 July 2019 10: 35
    Andrey, thanks for the interesting continuation of the cycle about WWII tanks!
  14. +9
    8 July 2019 10: 37
    Interesting statistics. I am simply amazed at the ability of a respected author to find interesting things on a seemingly long and zealously plowed field. good
  15. +11
    8 July 2019 10: 45
    Good article. I want to note one more circumstance that I did not see in the article and in the commentary. The systematic error of the survivor. Most tanks are shot down. But this does not mean that most of the hits were on board. It is possible that the tanks had many frontal hits, but the tanks weren’t destroyed, and continued to fight after this.
    Sorry my Russian, I’m not native, I studied at school about 25 years ago.
    1. +2
      8 July 2019 11: 04
      Nicola, Andrei speaks specifically about hits that led to the defeat of technology. Of course, the number of hits in the frontal projection, which did not lead to the destruction of the tank, was much larger. Moreover, the reservation schemes of the IS-3 and T-44 tanks, in the development of which the principle of differentiated reservation was applied with the greatest frontal projection protection (and with a decrease in the frontal projection area) was based on statistical studies of both destroyed tanks and those that got to repair plants.
  16. -1
    8 July 2019 10: 56
    By the way, they tried to install diesel on the Panther, the Daimler-Benz MB 507 with an output of 850 hp.
  17. +4
    8 July 2019 10: 59
    A little off topic.

    The result of the RP-3 missile hitting the Panther from the British Hawker Typhoon.
    RP-3 - rockets unguided air-to-ground missiles were developed on the basis of the Soviet "RS-82" and adopted by the end of 1941. They were used by fighter-bombers to destroy tanks, trains, cars, other ground targets, and also for the fight against submarines and small vessels. Four main types of shells were produced: “25lb AP Mk-I” (with armor-piercing head), “60lb SAP No2 Mk-I” (half-armor-piercing), “60lb HE No1 Mk-I” and “18lb HE Mk-I” (with HE) ) In total, 1 thousand rockets were fired. TTX shell: caliber –041 mm; length - 76,2 m; warhead length - 1.4 - 315 mm; projectile diameter - 558-87 mm; projectile weight - 152 - 19,7 kg; warhead mass - 36,8 - 8,2 kg; charge mass - 27,2 kg; initial speed - 5,8 - 350 m / s; armor penetration - at a distance of 480 m - 1000 mm; firing range - 78 km.
    Now on the topic.
    But despite such an obvious advantage, the above statistics show that, on average, German tankers and anti-tankers had to hit him once or twice to hit a T-34, and two or three to the Panther Soviet soldiers.
    The statistics do not take into account at what distances the German and Soviet anti-tankers had to shoot and how many guns and anti-tankers themselves were destroyed by the tanks.
    Given these indicators, the comparison of TVET will take on a slightly different look.
    1. +1
      8 July 2019 12: 51
      Quote: Undecim
      The statistics do not take into account at what distances the German and Soviet anti-tankers had to shoot and how many guns and anti-tankers themselves were destroyed by the tanks.
      Given these indicators, the comparison of TVET will take on a slightly different look.

      It seems to me that it’s physically impossible to select such statistics
    2. +1
      8 July 2019 12: 57
      The statistics do not take into account at what distances the German and Soviet anti-tankers had to shoot and how many guns and anti-tankers themselves were destroyed by the tanks.
      Given these indicators, the comparison of TVET will take on a slightly different look.


      Yes sir! well, "like" I wanted to say this before, but could not clearly express and complete the thought)
    3. +2
      8 July 2019 13: 35
      Quote: Undecim
      The result of the RP-3 missile hitting the Panther from the British Hawker Typhoon.


      British tales.
      RP-3 Warhead 12lb (5.4 kg) High explosive (TNT or TN / RDX) when used
      Can you believe that 5,4-5,8 kg of explosives is able to turn over a 44 ton tank?
      Yes, if 6 or 8 missiles simultaneously fall under the same track, which is not realistic, then the tank will not roll over.
      A 356 mm projectile is capable of overturning a heavy tank - a well-known case when landing in Normandy.
      1. +1
        8 July 2019 14: 28
        "British Tales" - turned it over on the "roof" by hand, and then, for greater effect, removed the tracks and unscrewed the roller? Brita, of course, and d and o s, but not to the same extent. laughing
        1. +3
          8 July 2019 15: 10
          Quote: Sea Cat
          "British Tales" - turned it over on the "roof" by hand, and then, for greater effect, removed the tracks and unscrewed the roller? Brita, of course, and d and o s, but not to the same extent. laughing


          Yes - and if you look closely - they planted two trimmed tracks on the MTO under the tank ...
          And neither funnels, nor soil thrown out of them ...

          Well, if you assume that 5,8 kg can overturn the tank :))
          then the mines such as TM-41 are also worth doing? But they only interrupt the tracks and track rollers knock out, as well as the more powerful mines TM-57, TM-62, etc.
          1. +3
            8 July 2019 15: 15
            In our regiment, a mechanic, performing a standard exercise, managed to overturn a "half-four" on the tower, and no missiles or explosives for you. Over time, I began to forget the numbers of standards and everything else. But there was a track bridge in fifth gear. Well, everyone had a lot of fun. smile
            1. +2
              8 July 2019 15: 18
              Quote: Sea Cat
              But there was a gauge bridge in fifth gear. Well, everyone had a lot of fun.


              Studying the photo, I thought about the same thing - overturn during loading and undermine if it is impossible to evacuate - as an option.

              Knocking over a tank / tractor when loading is nice
              1. 0
                8 July 2019 15: 22
                Knocking over a tank / tractor when loading is nice


                Yes, but why unscrew the rink?
                1. +2
                  8 July 2019 15: 27
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  Knocking over a tank / tractor when loading is nice


                  Yes, but why unscrew the rink?

                  Could not evacuate - undermined - an option?

                  And it happened and the bridges could not stand it :)


                  You can sign it - a blow to the RS-82, but we will not be like the Britons :)
                  1. +1
                    8 July 2019 15: 52
                    Of course we will not be like. And about the subsequent detonation, perhaps you are right, I have not thought of this option. Then it is clear where the "lonely" skating rink came from. wink
                    Yes, and driving an essentially heavy tank, whatever they call it, across a wooden bridge, is a clear desire to run into trouble. I remember how these, if I may say so, bridges reacted to 36 tons of my "fifty-four". The bridge "walked" like a drunk when we flew over it.
                    1. 0
                      8 July 2019 15: 59
                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      You are right, I have not thought of this option. Then it is clear where the "lonely" skating rink came from.


                      Googling - there are such photos - are usually thrown off the road, less often as a transvert by the efforts of a mechanical driver.




                      Here the Aglitz trophies take the panther away - when loading onto such a trawl, capsizing is the most common way to render a tank unusable, and if it is impossible to evacuate, to undermine the only way.

                      Rather, the tank was out of order and was thrown off the road.
                2. 0
                  8 July 2019 15: 38
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  Knocking over a tank / tractor when loading is nice


                  Yes, but why unscrew the rink?


                  German tankers are far from all Cariuses and Wittmans - they are also circus performers ...
                  1. +2
                    8 July 2019 15: 53
                    Carius read, but for Wittmann it is a pity that he did not survive this war, a worthy opponent.
        2. 0
          8 July 2019 15: 25
          Quote: Sea Cat
          "British Tales" - turned it over on the "roof" by hand, and then, for greater effect, removed the tracks and unscrewed the roller? Brita, of course, and d and o s, but not to the same extent. laughing

          The same tales were about how, near Moscow, German tanks turned over from a close burst of a 6 "shell fired from a cannon model 1877.
        3. +3
          8 July 2019 15: 26
          Comrade Dimer does not even suspect that the picture is not British, but German, taken from Waffen-Arsenal No. 012. Panther.

          Obviously, the Germans decided to justify their defeat by the power of the British RS and staged this image, and Goebbels distributed it through the German media, and many years later the publishers of Waffen-Arsenal extracted it from the Bundesarchive.
          1. +1
            8 July 2019 15: 55
            Vic, but in fact, the Allies from the "air" burned German tanks. You know how Whitman and his crew ended up
            1. +2
              8 July 2019 21: 28
              I met two options for signing this photo. In Waffen-Arsenal, the Germans write that this is the result of aviation.
              Baryatinsky, who used the same source to a large extent, says that this is the result of a 406 mm shell burst from the battleship Nelson.
              Naturally, the version with the shell looks more believable. However, I did not find anywhere information that would definitely outweigh the scales in favor of one of the versions.
              1. +1
                8 July 2019 22: 58
                But the story with the NelsonA main caliber round looks very beautiful. Imagine the headline in the press: "Panther duel with battleship"! Everyone is out of touch! The British navy wins again, but now the Panzerwaffe. laughing
          2. +3
            9 July 2019 09: 39
            Quote: Undecim
            Comrade Dimer doesn't even mature


            I, as a technical specialist in caterpillar technology for 20 years, have no reason to suspect.
            And when I see the mismatch between the declared parameters of the weapon and the effect (the charge of the RP-3 missile warhead, it can tear a track or tear off the track roller, but not turn the tank over) - questions arise as to how the caption corresponds to the photo.
            And it does not matter that the signature was made by Goebels propagandists or later researchers - it does not correspond to reality due to the insignificant high-explosive impact of the RS warhead.
            The maximum allowable missile could hit the chassis — to knock out the rink and break the track, after which, in order to clear the road and remove the convoy from the impact, the tank was knocked out of the way (for example, by hooking a pair of half-track tractors or another tank) - similar photos cited above.
            But under no circumstances will an RP-3 rocket overturn a tank like a TV.
            Best regards, Dmitry.
            1. +3
              9 July 2019 11: 19
              Especially for you, as a specialist in tracked vehicles, I will answer.
              In my comment, it is not written that the tank turned upside down by the explosion of NURS. It is written that this is the result of an action. You described one of the options for such a result in your last comment.
              Sincerely, Victor.
        4. BAI
          +3
          9 July 2019 13: 11
          That is exactly what happened.
          [quote] [/ Later, this Panther was overturned by Allied Engineers to remove it from the road.quote]
          This panther was later knocked over by Allied engineers to remove it from the road.
          http://www.worldwar2database.com/gallery/wwii0141
          1. BAI
            0
            9 July 2019 13: 16
            Some problems with editing. My answer is a comment

            Sea Cat (Constantine) Yesterday, 14:28


            "British Tales" - turned it over on the "roof" by hand, and then, for greater effect, removed the tracks and unscrewed the roller? Brita, of course, and d and o s, but not to the same extent. laughing

          2. +2
            9 July 2019 13: 21
            How much attention is there to one unfortunate cat, it is pleasant to communicate with enthusiastic people. hi
    4. 0
      8 July 2019 14: 02
      Quote: Undecim
      RP-3 - rockets unguided missiles of the "air-ground" class were developed on the basis of the Soviet "RS-82" and adopted by the end of 1941


      Taki based? :))

      Maximum - the USSR was asked for feedback on the effectiveness of the RS-82 as an anti-tank weapon.

      What the RP-3 was capable of was shooting down a caterpillar or turret of medium tanks and only a 60-pound warhead.
      1. 0
        9 July 2019 21: 59
        I agree. The British greatly extol their RP-3. The results of the shelling of the RS-132,82 tanks are absolutely not impressive and I think that the British counterparts were not more effective, although I do not deny the effectiveness of using such weapons in areas and against unarmored targets.
    5. +1
      8 July 2019 15: 50
      Let me doubt it. At least FAB-100 5-10 meters.
  18. BAI
    +2
    8 July 2019 11: 32
    The fact that the Panthers had almost the ultimate defense of frontal projection, but relatively weak sides, was well known in the Red Army. Therefore, the main indicator of the professionalism of our troops is precisely the ability of anti-tankists to choose a position, etc., in order to hit the Panthers in relatively vulnerable boards and aft.

    Our anti-tankers knew well how to beat cats. But such materials were released after Kursk (there is such a leaflet for the Tiger too).
  19. +5
    8 July 2019 12: 16
    The article makes a strange impression - it is written interestingly, there are curious facts (first of all, about the Germans who have combat-ready tanks - the author has a rechpekt! love ), and an attempt to analyze hits, but somewhat strange ...
    Does the author provoke a discussion?
    As for the reservation, experience has shown that the Germans' approach to enhanced reservation of the frontal projection has become a classic, there is nothing to discuss here! request But the attempt to evenly book the thickness of the T-34 (yes, with different angles) turned out to be a mistake that was eliminated already on the T-44. And the evolution of KV-1 to KV-1s led to a weakening of the side armor request
    The basics of military art say that you can’t be strong everywhere, so it’s not possible to create an unkillable tank!
    But the Germans had the disease of creating a child prodigy, and therefore they came to the mouse as a result ... bully
  20. +4
    8 July 2019 12: 17
    From personal observations, to the question of ergonomics: in Kubinka managed to climb on t4, 38t, t34-85, t34-76 and Panther, Panther seemed the most uncomfortable. IMHO, it should be borne in mind that all machines are without a piece of internal equipment and, of course, without bk.
  21. +1
    8 July 2019 12: 29
    Thanks to the author for the article! As always, reading for lunch is wonderful - both interesting and informative)
    but for relatively weak "fours" it reaches 30%.

    Perhaps the secret lies in the excellent maintainability of these tanks, unlike tigers and panthers.
  22. +1
    8 July 2019 12: 33
    to knock out the T-34, you had to get into it once or twice, and the Soviet soldiers in the "Panther" - two or three

    Is the number of non-penetrations taken into account in this statistic?
    Probably the author had in mind that in order to incapacitate a tank, it would take not 2-3 hits, but 2-3 hits with penetration of armor.
    1. +1
      8 July 2019 16: 23
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      Is the number of non-penetrations taken into account in this statistic?

      Yes
  23. +1
    8 July 2019 13: 04
    You can also recall the “childhood illnesses” of “Panzervaff cats,” but even then one should not forget that the Panthers went into production in February 1943, and in the yard, excuse me, December, that is, almost a year has passed . About children's illnesses of the Tigers, the right to speak is somehow uncomfortable.


    It is also not so simple here - the cars went into production in February 1943, and the practice of combat use was in the summer of 1943. So far the military will draw up a list of complaints, and by December the fleet of first-series cars has not yet been completely knocked out.
    Making changes to production without the approval of the military is still a red tape, new tests, while the approval will pass through the bureaucratic authorities - so the launch of improved batches of "panthers" from February 1944 is quite a working term in wartime conditions.
  24. +1
    8 July 2019 13: 09
    Article
    But now let’s take first-class trained German crews and Panthers, the visibility of which seems to be beyond praise

    in reality, the panther was half-blind - she had 2 versions of the review - the commander with his turret and gunner
    the radio gunner saw very narrowly like a mole. The gunner also saw so narrowly that without the help of the commander he could not find the target. And the commander has about 40% of the all-round visibility or blind spots or difficult to control. As a result, the commander kept the hatch almost always open or half open. If we compare with T4 and the tiger, then the viewing density around it has fallen by about half.
    In the distance, too, the review was not very - a monocular rangefinder and a 4-fold increase. In general, reading jokes at a kilometer distance will not work.
    Duplication of the review was practically gone at all. 3 crew members are either blind or see in a very narrow sector., The mechvod is not up to target designation. There is a partial overload of the commander, which the Germans so carefully avoided for many years.
  25. +7
    8 July 2019 13: 10
    Dear comrade Andrei, from Chelyabinsk, you need to catch and catch, and give a knee under your breath, but as it should!
    Figuratively speaking.

    With this approach to the Case and the consideration of the Question with Facts in your hands - you should not sit on the Internet, but write articles, books and dissertations.

    How many already talked about this when he did his research about the fleet ...
    Now he switched to tanks. And again the same thing.

    And again, only on the Internet ...

    No, you have to beat.
    Fact

    And then he will not publish in hard copies, his research ...
    1. +2
      8 July 2019 14: 36
      Where do you serve, dear? And then your manner of presentation about "knee under the gut" leads to certain reflections. Once I knew a retired guard, he expressed his attitude to various issues in about the same way.
      1. +4
        8 July 2019 20: 49
        Goblin translation of The Fellowship of the Ring. Sam: "What a beauty, Fyodor Mikhailovich (Frodo) I don't even want to swear!" laughing
    2. +1
      8 July 2019 20: 17
      Incomprehensible, illogical nonsense of some kind! What did Miner decide to bring comments to readers? Andrei has excellent articles on military history, very well-reasoned and illustrated.
      1. 0
        10 July 2019 05: 39
        Tell me, what do you think I wrote?
        1. 0
          11 July 2019 03: 57
          It’s hard to catch the point, alas. Would you like to see everything published in hardcover? Have you ever tried to break into the publishing market? It is already completely captured and divided, you can publish it at your own expense, but having printed a print run, no one can guarantee you its sale or even just distribution to stores.
  26. 0
    8 July 2019 13: 22
    Once again, I thank Andrey for the article, I read it with great interest
  27. +4
    8 July 2019 13: 23
    Thanks to the author.
    About anti-tank men. Here's what caught my eye in the photographs of the wounded panthers. On the first, tank # 535, there are no other marks from hits, only those that led to the penetration of the armor, which indicates the skill of the shooters. Moreover, the one who fired 45-mm projectiles, put them in a heap, like from a sniper rifle, obviously fired a "deuce" from one sight mount, and the one who fired from 76mm obviously chose an identification mark as the aiming point (a common occurrence, including in aviation), and almost got into it.
    In the second photo (tank No. 445), again, two penetrations and two bounce marks (IMHO), everything is also very heaped.
    And the third or fourth photo (a tank with the inscription "Ilyin ...), There is generally a song. Three penetrations and at least three ricochets, to the rear of the tower, everything is so dense that all hits can actually be covered with a missing hatch.
    Those. with poor training and poor armament, the hits would be distributed more evenly over the area, and here it is crowded and in those places where penetration is most likely possible.
    1. +1
      8 July 2019 18: 02
      Quote: motorized infantryman
      Thanks to the author.
      About anti-tank men. Here's what caught my eye in the photographs of the wounded panthers. On the first, tank # 535, there are no other marks from hits, only those that led to the penetration of the armor, which indicates the skill of the shooters. Moreover, the one who fired 45-mm projectiles, put them in a heap, like from a sniper rifle, obviously fired a "deuce" from one sight mount, and the one who fired from 76mm obviously chose an identification mark as the aiming point (a common occurrence, including in aviation), and almost got into it.
      In the second photo (tank No. 445), again, two penetrations and two bounce marks (IMHO), everything is also very heaped.
      And the third or fourth photo (a tank with the inscription "Ilyin ...), There is generally a song. Three penetrations and at least three ricochets, to the rear of the tower, everything is so dense that all hits can actually be covered with a missing hatch.
      Those. with poor training and poor armament, the hits would be distributed more evenly over the area, and here it is crowded and in those places where penetration is most likely possible.

      Father in 43 - 44 fought on a 45 mm. I would have fired badly, I would not have lived until Victory. drinks By the way, he praised the gun very much.
  28. +2
    8 July 2019 13: 52
    translation from German from the experience of using Panther tanks.




  29. +2
    8 July 2019 15: 51
    hi ..... the Panther tank, in essence, received protection according to the same concept: the forehead of the hull was protected by a completely indestructible 85 mm armor
    .... The Germans themselves believed that the Panther became fully operational from about February 1944
  30. +4
    8 July 2019 20: 12
    Thank you, Andrey! An excellent article and very well refutes "historians" such as G Popov and other fans to write about how many times the losses of the Panzerwaffe are lower than the losses of the Red Army tank troops. Eyewitnesses told me that after the Battle of Kursk, the advancing troops captured in Kharkov repair bases, echelons and tank repair factories, crushed by wounded Tigers, Panthers and other bulletproof armor, especially in Kharkov.
  31. 0
    9 July 2019 09: 56
    Quote: Miner
    Now I switched to tanks

    no))) a tank is a land cruiser.
  32. 0
    9 July 2019 14: 18
    significantly reinforced only the reservation of the frontal projection of their tanks
    Now it’s essentially the same: most tanks are reserved only from the forehead and cardboard sides ...
    PS I would very much like to see a comparison of the panther and 34-85 for me they are approximately equal but it is not clear which of them is better.
  33. +2
    9 July 2019 17: 03
    Coiled brains in teutons. Absolutely useless for battle, a limousine, smooth ride, the most careful fit of the hull and tower elements, as if the cat is invulnerable and gathered to ride to the cancer whistle on a high-rise, not the next hours, or even minutes of the battle. And such a useless thing like tsimmerit. After all, they used it right up to the middle of the 44th. The most popular Ausf A series is all and G shek more than half. The chassis is simply allless. Now I am assembling the G on a scale of 48, even plastic rollers, notice, without any torsion of the bolts, to hang on the axles of the balancers, you can only dislocate your fingers.
    They had no chance of defeating us. Lost the demoniac already at 41 ohms. No matter how the blitzkrieg burned out. It was necessary to be friends with the USSR and wet the impudent Saxons. Another world would be today.
    1. +1
      10 July 2019 17: 06
      zimmerit this, as I understand it, "cut" in German
      someone from the military lobbied suppliers of this putty
  34. +1
    9 July 2019 19: 25
    The author did not indicate the distances from which 22 panthers were struck. If under Oboyan the positions broke through 22 T-34s, they would have been hit with 22 shots.
    1. 0
      11 July 2019 07: 42
      Quote: ager1751
      If under Oboyan positions 22 T-34 broke through, they would have been hit with 22 shots.

      As I said, the number of hits on the 1 T-34 was 1,5-1,8 in 1944-45. Not 1
  35. 0
    11 July 2019 06: 59
    .... Author Well done titanic work done !!!!!! .....
  36. +1
    11 July 2019 16: 16
    I wonder how many shells hit the horizontal armor of the tanks? It was very thin and could be broken by HE shells of 76 mm or more, as well as 120 mm min. About 82 mm min I have no information.
    1. 0
      16 July 2019 21: 58
      yes, it would be nice to know
  37. 0
    3 August 2019 20: 24
    (Top of "thirty-four" with 76,2-mm cannon, or T-34 model 1943 against T-IVH). WHERE IS THIS ARTICLE?
  38. 0
    5 August 2019 09: 50
    Quote: mvg
    The rest of the PT insofar as

    And Stug III, IV and LIV / 70, as well as Sdkfz.234 (in the variant of different PTs) generally by the cash register?))))) .... I'm in shock !!))

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