From 75-Kane to 34-K, or Evolution of anti-aircraft artillery between Soviet battleships

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This material is dedicated to the anti-aircraft artillery of the battleships Marat, October Revolution and the Paris Commune.


The salute guns on the nose superstructure are not visible on the above ship diagram, but if you make a big increase, they will be there.




Anti-aircraft weapons of battleships during the First World War


Oddly enough, but in a number of the most common sources on the “Sevastopol” type of battleships, such as, for example, the books of A.M. Vasiliev, the issue of small-caliber artillery mounted on battleships of this type is far from being fully revealed.

Most likely, in addition to the 12 * 305-mm and 16 * 120-mm main and anti-mine guns, the “Sevastopoli” also intended to install 8 * 75-mm and 4 * 47 * mm guns, and none of them were anti-aircraft. Eight 75-mm guns were planned to be placed in pairs on the battleship's 4 towers, and they were intended exclusively for training artillery crews, and 47-mm guns were salute and decorated the nasal superstructure.

Already during the completion of the Sevastopol, the 75-mm turret guns were abandoned, and if they were installed on one or two of the first ships of the series, they were almost immediately dismantled. At the same time, subject to development aviation there was a need for means of protecting ships from it, so it was decided to equip the latest battleships with four anti-aircraft guns. Unfortunately, it is not known what caliber, since respected authors contradict each other.

For example, A.M. Vasiliev points out that the guns should have had a caliber of 47-mm, but A.V. Skvortsov writes that 63,5-mm. Apparently, they were intended to be installed in pairs on the bow and stern turrets of the main caliber, so it is likely that their installation was provided for after the decision was made to remove the 75-mm artillery training system. However, due to the lack of weapons, the Dreadnoughts anti-aircraft weapons in World War I became somewhat different: all Sevastopol battleships received three anti-aircraft artillery systems. At the same time, at the Sevastopol and Poltava itself, 2 * 75-mm and one 47-mm guns were placed, as is usually indicated in the sources, and at Petropavlovsk and Gangut - by 2 63,5-mm and one 47- mm

What were these guns?

On "three-inch", unfortunately, remains unclear. Most likely, the battleships received an anti-aircraft modification of the 75-mm / 50 Kane cannon, which we acquired from France in the already distant 1891. This is the very same 75-mm artist who, in the mass, armed our ships during the Russian-Japanese war.



During the years of its service, the gun was installed on a number of different machines: Kane machines on the central pin, Möller’s machines, arr. 1906 and 1908, the latter being a modernization of “arr. 1906 g ”, which received, however, an independent name. But, of course, there was no specialized anti-aircraft gun among them. When it became clear from the beginning of the war that the anti-aircraft guns were definitely needed for ships, it was decided to use Kan's 75-mm / 50. Only the Möller’s machine was suitable for this, since the others had a spring-in-comforter that was completely inconvenient for the anti-aircraft gun, and they took it as a basis. In effect, the 75-mm / 50 gun was turned on 180 hail. around its axis, so that the recoil devices, which were located under the barrel, were now above it.

The resulting artillery system could seem quite successful, since it informed its projectiles of a very high initial speed and had suitable ammunition. In 1915-16, a specialized anti-aircraft projectile weighing 5,32 kg was created. It is an 680 g filled explosive (tola) explosive bomb with an 22-second tube, the initial velocity of which was 747 m / s. In addition, there was a shrapnel shell, equipped with bullets as a striking element, and having the same 22-second slowdown, but the speed of 823 m / s - apparently, it could also be used as an anti-aircraft gun.

However, in fact, the gun was very confused. To begin with, the first modifications of it had an elevation angle of only 50 degrees, which was categorically insufficient for firing at air targets. Subsequently, the maximum angle of elevation was increased to 70 degrees, but 4 received such weapons from the Baltic Fleet only in July 1916, and it is extremely doubtful that such cannons were installed on the battleships. On the other hand, given the fact that there is little data on the placement of anti-aircraft guns on battleships of the “Sevastopol” type, who can know for sure?

But a small elevation angle is only one of the troubles. As mentioned above, subsequently it was brought first to 70, and then to 75 degrees. As such, the 75-mm / 50 Kane guns of the “1928 g model” served in the Soviet navy even in the early 30s.


Anti-aircraft variant 75-mm guns Kane on the cruiser "Chervona Ukraine". And even with centralized fire control devices


But as anti-aircraft guns, they turned out to be cumbersome, cumbersome and inconvenient to maintain, and in all respects they lost to the specialized 76,2-mm anti-aircraft guns of the Lender system, to which we will return a little lower. We also note here that, although the Lender artillery system was considered a mod. 1914 / 1915, but in fact began to enter the fleet only from the second half of 1916 and 1917. At the same time, during the Civil War, such guns were massively withdrawn from the fleet to equip ships of river fleets, armored trains, etc. d. Thus, in principle, these guns could easily get to the Sevastopol type battleships, but it is extremely difficult to say how, when and how much.

The second of the anti-aircraft artillery systems of the Sevastopol type that entered service was the 63,5-mm cannon — and this artillery system is another mystery. The fact is that before the First World War, the fleet, of course, was preoccupied with creating an anti-aircraft artillery system for large warships: it was the 2,5-inch gun of the Obukhov factory.



Its barrel length was 38 gauges, the angle of elevation - to 75 hail. The ammunition consisted of a high-explosive grenade weighing 4,04 kg and shrapnel weighing 3,73 kg. with a fuse tube on 34 seconds, with which the gun fired at an initial speed of 686 m / s. In total, by November 1916, 20 of such guns had been manufactured, and production continued. Moreover, on 1 on April 1917, eight of them were mounted on the battleships of the Black Sea Fleet, two guns per ship. Thus, it is quite possible, and even more than likely, that Petropavlovsk and Gangut were armed with this particular artillery system. It must be said that the product of the Obukhovsky plant turned out to be unsuccessful as an anti-aircraft gun, but it was rather the fallacy of the concept of the gun, and not its design. The idea of ​​constructing a small-caliber, but non-automatic, weapon itself was flawed: the 2,5-inch fire rate was low and was losing heavily to the British 40-mm pom pom, and this lag was not compensated by the power of the projectile, which was not enough.

Most likely, it was precisely such weapons that our two battleships received, but ... since this is not known for certain, it is worth considering other options. I must say that, in addition to the above-mentioned anti-aircraft 63,5-mm / 38 artillery systems, the Russian Imperial fleet had only one gun of similar caliber. Of course, we are talking about the famous 63,5-mm assault gun Baranovsky.



Oddly enough, the author of this article came across references to the fact that some of them could be installed on gun carriages capable of firing at aircraft. But the appearance of the anti-aircraft modification of this artillery system, even if they really existed, looks extremely doubtful on our battleships.

The Baranovsky gun with a caliber of 63,5-mm was a specialized weapon intended also for arming amphibious parties. Then there was a period when the marines were abolished, and its tasks, as it was then thought to the leadership of the Russian Imperial Navy, could be solved by sailors of warships. Given the difficulty of landing, a compromise of combat qualities and compactness inherent in mountain guns was required from the cannon - by the way, on the basis of the landing cannon, Baranovsky later made a mountain one. The landing cannon turned out to be light, the weight together with the gun carriage was just 272 kg, and from it one could even shoot from the boat.

In general, the compactness of Baranovsky’s creation was not to be taken up: the problem, however, was that the 63,5-mm gun’s combat capability was categorically insufficient. The length of its barrel was only 19,8 caliber, the mass of the projectile - 2,55 for high-explosive and 2,4 kg for shrapnel shells, although mountain tools were armed with heavier ammunition, the weight of which reached 4 kg. The short barrel limited the initial speed to only 372 m / s., The maximum firing range - to 2,8 km. Already the Russian-Japanese war showed the complete unsuitability of the weapon for modern combat. Of course, the Baranovsky gun, in its design, was in many ways ahead of its time, and with a certain reason it can be considered the first rapid-fire cannon in the world - after all, whole 5 rds / min. But nevertheless its combat capabilities were too modest, and by the beginning of the 20 century the gun was completely outdated, so it was removed from the fleet weapons in 1908. And, according to Shirokorad, the guns of this type were removed to the scrap, and not for long-term storage, so the chances that the guns of this type could return to the fleet as anti-aircraft guns are minimal.

As a matter of fact, if you compare the photos of the guns on the aft tower of the Petropavlovsk battleships



From the photo of 63,5-mm / 38 guns Obukhov plant, located on the battleship Efstafiy,

From 75-Kane to 34-K, or Evolution of anti-aircraft artillery between Soviet battleships


Then we will see that their silhouettes are quite similar.

But with 47-mm guns, there is no ambiguity: only classic Hochkiss 47-mm single-barrel guns could be mounted on the battleships, the machine of which was remade for firing at air targets, while the maximum angle of the gun was 85 degrees.

As for the placement of anti-aircraft artillery, the guns on different battleships were located differently. Usually, two anti-aircraft guns were placed on the aft turret of the main caliber, the third one — in different ways, for example, could be mounted on a nose turret, as it was on the Petropavlovsk battleship, but not necessarily


"Petropavlovsk" and "Admiral Makarov" during the Ice Campaign. The battleship clearly shows the anti-aircraft artillery system mounted on the nose turret.


Modernization of air defense of the battleship "Marat"


From the books of A.M. Vasilyeva in many publications migrated the phrase:

"Due to the lack of new material, anti-aircraft artillery remained the same (three 76-mm guns of the Lender system on the 1 and 4 towers. On this occasion, the head of the weapons department of the Red Army MS in the certificate from 30 in March 1930, noted:" ... the 3 specimens in service with 1915, of course, are unsatisfactory, but at the moment, neither we nor the army have anything better ... ".


From this phrase, and even from many photographs of our battleships in the 20-s, it should be understood that the first strengthening of the air defense system was received by the domestic battleships before the start of large-scale upgrades. Apparently, Kanet’s 75-mm guns, Obukhov’s 63,5-mm plant and Hotchkiss 47-mm were removed at the time of their return to service, and replaced by six Lender 76,2-mm anti-aircraft guns grouped in three guns on the bow and stern towers.



The Lender cannon was the first Russian artillery system designed specifically for firing at air targets: at the time of its creation it was completely successful and fully responded to its tasks. This 76,2-mm gun with a barrel length 30,5 calibers and maximum elevation angle of the last 75 hail. used unitary ammunition, which allowed to bring the rate of fire to 15-20 spok. / min. The ammunition consisted of a high-explosive grenade and a shrapnel shell weighing 6 and 6,5 kg, which were fired at an initial speed of 609,6 and 588,2 kg. respectively. But the gun Lender could use any ammunition of the famous 76,2-mm "three-inch" arr. 1902, and besides, other types of shells were subsequently created for it.

The Russian armed forces received the first batch of a dozen of such guns in 1915, in the following year another 26 of such guns was produced, and in 1917 - 110. They were also produced after the revolution, the last artillery system of this type was already produced in 1934.

For its time, this was a good decision, and it can be said that in the 20-s of the air defense of the ships more or less corresponded to the challenges of time, but, of course, by the beginning of the 30-s, completely different weapons were required. Unfortunately, the “Marat” never received it and walked with the six Lender trunks right up to 1940, only here its air defense was finally strengthened.

The old artillery systems were dismantled, and 10 of more modern 76,2-mm guns was installed to replace them. Six of them, placed in 34-K single-unit installations, took places on the bow and stern towers, and 4 also absolutely the same guns, but in double-barreled installations 81-K, placed on sections, instead of a pair of stern 120-mm guns. And I must say that it is very difficult to give an unambiguous assessment to these systems.


34-K


On the one hand, the 76,2-mm domestic anti-aircraft guns were quite good artillery systems based on the German Flak L / 75 XNUM anti-aircraft gun. More precisely, the ground gun 59-K was created on the basis of the German cannon, and only then it was “mastered” in the 3-K. But on the other hand, the documentation and technical processes for this weapon were acquired in the USSR in 34, and since then, of course, the tool “a little” has become outdated.

It had good (for three-inch) ballistic data - with a barrel length of 55 caliber, the 6,5-6,95 initial speed was reported to the 801-813 kg shells, the initial speed of 75-40 m / s. -mm Pak 34 anti-tank gun. Accordingly, the maximum firing range of the 13-K reached 9,3 km, and the maximum reach in height - 34 km. The maximum angle of elevation 85-K reached 127 hail. And if we look at perhaps the most effective shipboard anti-aircraft gun of the Second World War era, the US 38-mm / 34 artillery system, we will see that its similar parameters are not so superior to the 16-K. The American anti-aircraft gun had a maximum firing range of about 12, and its height reach was about 34 km. At the same time, the 15-K with a well-prepared calculation and timely supply of ammunition could develop a rate of fire up to 20-88 spok. / Min, which was quite at the level of the excellent German 34-mm anti-aircraft guns. In general, XNUMX-K was quite convenient for calculations and a reliable tool.

However, on this, his advantages, in general, ended, and very numerous minuses began. The first of these was the viciousness of the very idea of ​​choosing for an anti-aircraft gun caliber 76,2 mm. Good ballistics, of course, made it possible to throw the projectile far enough, but the problem was that the parameters of the long-range air target can only be determined very approximately, and the projectile flies for a while, and the aircraft can also maneuver. All this leads to a large error in aiming and the extreme importance of such a parameter of an anti-aircraft gun, such as a projectile attack zone, but for 76,2 mm guns, the projectile power was too small. The heaviest 34-K ammunition - 6,95 kg high-explosive fragmentation grenade, contained only 483 grams of explosive. For comparison, the German anti-aircraft gun 88-mm, which is not so superior in caliber 9 kg, fired 850 gangles of explosives. That is, the German anti-aircraft gun exceeded the Soviet artillery system in 1,5 by weight of the projectile, and almost 2 in charge. What can we say about American 127-mm ammunition? The projectile of the American 127-mm / 38 guns weighed 25 kg and carried in itself from 2,8 to 3,8 kg BB! But even this, in general, was not enough to reliably defeat aircraft of the Second World War, so the Americans increased their chances by developing and massively deploying radar fuses.

But sooner or later the plane will overcome the distance separating it from the ship and will be in close proximity to it. And here the ability of an anti-aircraft gun to accompany a flying plane acquires great importance, that is, in other words, the anti-aircraft gun must have sufficient horizontal and vertical guidance in order to “twist the barrel” after the plane. Here, alas, 34-K is not doing too well either: its vertical and horizontal guidance rates were 8 and 12 degrees / sec. Is it a lot or a little? For Italian 100-mm Minizini anti-aircraft guns, these speeds were 7 and 13 degrees / sec. respectively. However, almost all sources point out that it was not enough to fight aircraft of the Second World War. Accordingly, this is true for 34-K. And again, if we recall that the prototype of 34-K, the German Rheinmetall, was designed at the end of 20-s, when combat aircraft flew much slower, the speeds of vertical and horizontal pickup were quite enough. However, in 1940, it is no longer.

And so it turned out that for firing at long distances of the domestic 34-K there was not enough power of projectiles, and for fighting with aircraft at short distances - the speed of vertical and horizontal pickup. This did not, of course, make the 34-K useless, but as medium-caliber anti-aircraft artillery it was frankly weak. And the same applies to 81-K, which was practically the same gun, only the “Spark” on another machine.



The weakness of the average caliber of the Marat air defense, alas, was complemented by its small number, yet 10 trunks for the ship of the class “battleship” (even if it is relatively small) should be considered absolutely insufficient.

As for the fire control devices, the 76,2-mm anti-aircraft guns were divided into 2 batteries, fore and aft, and for each of them there was one rangefinder with a three-meter base, and a MPUAZ “Tablet” set. Unfortunately, the author was not able to find a detailed description of the capabilities of this MPUAZ, but it is very easy to fill this gap by logical reasoning.

The fact is that the entire control system of anti-aircraft (and not only anti-aircraft) fire of any ship can be divided into 3 parts. The first is target observation devices, that is, Viziers, range finders, artillery radars, and so on. The second part is the computing devices, which, taking into account the mass parameters of the target, the atmosphere, the ship, guns and ammunition, form the solution - pickup angles, preemption. And finally, the third part is the instruments that transmit the received solution directly to the anti-aircraft guns and give the shooting manager feedback from them.

So, the observation device for the Marat anti-aircraft fire control system was the “3-meter” range finders, but there appeared to be no computing devices. The fact is that similar devices appeared in the Russian fleet for the first time on the battleship "Paris Commune", light cruisers of the 26 project and destroyers of the 7 project, and there they all had other naming conventions. And the MPAUAZ "Tablet" was installed on the "Marat" in 1932, that is, for the first time they operated the Lender 6 guns. That is, in those years, there were no domestic computing instruments for anti-aircraft fire in the USSR, and there is no information that the Tablet was purchased abroad.

Accordingly, it would not be a mistake to assume that the MPUAZ “Tablet” was only fire control devices, which allowed the fire control officer to transfer data for firing calculations with the guns. But he obviously needed to calculate the necessary parameters manually. So it is quite possible that the “Tablet” was generally used only for bringing the distance to the target to be calculated, and they had already determined the rest of the shooting parameters on their own.

Subsequently, small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery was also installed on the Marat, but we will talk about it in the next article.

To be continued ...
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  1. -1
    6 July 2019 05: 15
    Battleships of the USSR to the beginning of the Second World War it sucks, as the melt-batteries are still here and there!
    1. +17
      6 July 2019 06: 05
      The main thing is that they performed their function: shelling the coast. In the Baltic, they performed this function well. In the Black Sea it’s bad, but it’s for command. In general, fully consistent with the purpose.
      Based on this, these ships are good. The American position: "There are no bad ships. There are ships used for other purposes" fully confirms this.
      Anti-aircraft artillery is weak. But at the same time, the Germans miraculously drowned the standing "Marat". For example, "Oktyabrina", frozen into the ice, could not. The Americans and the Japanese would be very surprised.
      1. +3
        7 July 2019 15: 54
        Quote: mmaxx
        In the Baltic, they performed this function well. In the Black Sea it’s bad, but it’s for command. In general, fully consistent with the purpose.


        In the Baltic, the Germans ditched the "Marat" right in Kronstadt with its powerful air defense. On the Black Sea, German aviation was forced to remove large ships of the Red Army Navy, including the battleship "Parizhskaya Kommuna", as far as possible from German aviation. The real benefits of battleships for the USSR during the Second World War were much less than the problems caused by the unwillingness to lose these ships.
        1. +1
          8 July 2019 14: 34
          Quote: NF68
          In the Baltic, the Germans ditched the Marat right in Kronstadt with its powerful air defense.

          As of September 1941, there was no powerful air defense in Kronstadt. There was a set of ZA divisions scattered across the forts north and south of Kronstadt, as well as on the island of Kotlin, with the north-west being the most secret direction.
          Kronstadt defended the 1st regiment of anti-aircraft artillery under the command of Captain S.A. Ignatovsky as part of three divisions, whose anti-aircraft weapons were located on Kotlin itself and the forts surrounding it. Two four-gun 76-mm anti-aircraft batteries, combined into the 1st separate anti-aircraft artillery battalion (ozadn), under the command of senior lieutenant N.D. Konopatsky stationed at forts Obruchev (No. 413 and No. 416) and Totleben (No. 412 and No. 418). The composition of the 2nd ozadn under the command of captain P.I. Petrova included four four-gun 76-mm anti-aircraft batteries (No. 414 - Komsomolsky Fort, No. 421 - Carefree, No. 422 - Fort Konstantin, No. 423 - Fort Yuzhny No. 2), and one four-gun 85-mm battery No. 420 on Mortirnaya. The 3rd squad under the command of Senior Lieutenant V.E. Doronin. 76-mm batteries were located: No. 431 - North Fort No. 5, No. 432 - North Fort No. 1, No. 433 - the so-called Military Corner (southeast tip of Kotlin), No. 435 - Northern Fort No. 3, and 85 mm No. 424 was located at Fort Yuzhny No. 1. In addition, there was an anti-aircraft machine-gun company deployed at the southern tip of Ust-Rogatka. A total of 48 76-mm and eight 85-mm guns, as well as three (according to other sources - six) 37-mm anti-aircraft guns, not counting naval artillery.
          (...)
          Due to the limited fighters that the enemy managed to tie in battle, the main burden of repelling the raid fell on anti-aircraft artillery under the general leadership of the head of the Air Defense Bureau of the KBF Colonel MP Pozdnyakova. The disposition of anti-aircraft batteries did not provide the same density of fire from all directions. The base was most reliably covered from the northwest, and from the southeast, on the contrary, weakly. They were not provided with direct fire cover for the parking lots of ships in the harbors of Kronstadt, on raids, especially on Vostochny, where almost all combat-ready large surface ships were concentrated. In fact, up to three anti-aircraft artillery batteries and a battery of 37-mm anti-aircraft guns on Ust-Rogatka fully participated in repulsing enemy air strikes.
          In conditions of a massive raid with “breaking through” the air defense system in a narrow sector, not only the regiment commander, but also the division commanders could not centrally control their subordinate forces, and the batteries independently chose targets for firing. As a result, many enemy planes generally acted without opposition.
          © Platonov
          And there was an airfield with a dozen fighters. Moreover, on September 23, only eight cars were able to lift into the air.
          By the time the raid began over the main base, three I-153 fighters were barraging. Upon detection of the enemy from the aerodrome of the Bull Field, five more vehicles rose.

          The air defense system of Kronstadt began to be created after the raids of the end of September 1941.
          On September 24, the 71st fighter aviation regiment flew to the Bychye Pole airfield, and on September 25 the 6th anti-aircraft artillery regiment arrived from Oranienbaum from Oranienbaum, as well as the command post of the head of the Air Defense Fleet.
          1. 0
            8 July 2019 15: 28
            Quote: Alexey RA
            As of September 1941, there was no powerful air defense in Kronstadt. There was a set of ZA divisions scattered across the forts north and south of Kronstadt, as well as on the island of Kotlin, with the north-west being the most secret direction.


            Alongside the air defense of the Navy itself, there were many warships in Krontadt. Anti-aircraft artillery of these ships also fired on enemy aircraft.
            1. +1
              8 July 2019 16: 09
              Quote: NF68
              Alongside the air defense of the Navy itself, there were many warships in Krontadt.

              And how were these ships with MPOZO? Do the same EMs? wink
              As you know, already in the 7 project, to ensure the effective firing of 76-mm guns, the installation of the MPOZO was provided, but by the time most of the destroyers were commissioned, these devices existed only on paper. The first Soyuz-7U system was installed literally on the eve of the war - in June 1941, on the Black Sea destroyer "Capable". It included a fairly advanced Soyuz anti-aircraft firing machine (according to the principle of operation - an analogue of the CAC-2, but designed for firing at air targets), the Giro vertical and the SVP-1 stabilized sighting post. Although the system acted in one plane and was ineffective in the fight against diving bombers, it significantly strengthened the air defense of the ship. In the 1942 year, Soyuz-7U (with the replacement of the failed SVP-1 with the new SVP-29) was mounted on two more destroyers - the Black Sea Svobodny and the Baltic Strog. And that’s all.
              © S. A. Balakin. "Soobrazitelny" and other destroyers of project 7U.

              And without Poiseau, anti-aircraft artillery by the beginning of the 40's can only scare enemy aircraft.
              So ship air defense in Kronstadt is two LCs and one KR.
              1. 0
                9 July 2019 16: 01
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Quote: NF68
                Alongside the air defense of the Navy itself, there were many warships in Krontadt.

                And how were these ships with MPOZO? Do the same EMs? wink
                As you know, already in the 7 project, to ensure the effective firing of 76-mm guns, the installation of the MPOZO was provided, but by the time most of the destroyers were commissioned, these devices existed only on paper. The first Soyuz-7U system was installed literally on the eve of the war - in June 1941, on the Black Sea destroyer "Capable". It included a fairly advanced Soyuz anti-aircraft firing machine (according to the principle of operation - an analogue of the CAC-2, but designed for firing at air targets), the Giro vertical and the SVP-1 stabilized sighting post. Although the system acted in one plane and was ineffective in the fight against diving bombers, it significantly strengthened the air defense of the ship. In the 1942 year, Soyuz-7U (with the replacement of the failed SVP-1 with the new SVP-29) was mounted on two more destroyers - the Black Sea Svobodny and the Baltic Strog. And that’s all.
                © S. A. Balakin. "Soobrazitelny" and other destroyers of project 7U.

                And without Poiseau, anti-aircraft artillery by the beginning of the 40's can only scare enemy aircraft.
                So ship air defense in Kronstadt is two LCs and one KR.


                According to the recollections of the Germans themselves, anti-aircraft artillery over Kronstadt created great problems for them. So not everything was so bad with the air defense of Kronstadt.
    2. +21
      6 July 2019 08: 59
      Quote: andrewkor
      Battleships of the USSR to the beginning of the Second World War it sucks, as the melt-batteries are still here and there!


      Eka how easily "sucks" and the point! And if according to the “garlic” battleships were designed and built in the Russian Empire and the USSR, they went as a “legacy”, sort of “suitcases without a handle”! It is necessary to pay tribute that of the 4 Baltic battleships, the leadership of the Navy retained three!
      If you look at modern history, then out of 4 four nuclear cruisers of the USSR, only two were able to save in Russia! So here is the bill in favor of the Soviet Union ...
      Regards, Vladislav!
      1. +5
        6 July 2019 10: 50
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        If you look at modern history, then of the 4 four nuclear cruisers of the USSR, in Russia only two could be saved!

        An interesting comparison, but I'm afraid that is true.
      2. -1
        6 July 2019 12: 08
        Dear Captri, I am hoping that my short comment will encourage you to quickly go over the Internet and compare the characteristics of the Sevastopol's peers from different fleets of the world, as well as the results of upgrades after WWII and their service during WWII.
        Well, "suitcase without a handle" doesn't it suck?
        Yes, the "Paris Commune" on the Black Sea made 10 military campaigns, shot 3000 shells of the main caliber along the shore until the trunks were completely worn out. I say "floating battery", not far from the French pieces of iron during the Crimean War.
        1. +4
          6 July 2019 12: 21
          Quote: andrewkor
          Dear Captri, I am pleased with the hope that my short comment will encourage you to quickly go over the Internet and compare the characteristics of the Sevastopol's peers from different fleets of the world

          And what will be so terrible there? "Neptune", "Colossus", "Florida" ... "Kaiser", by the way, was founded later.
          Quote: andrewkor
          as well as the results of upgrades after WWI and their service during WWII.

          Before WWII, only Utah survived, not as a battleship, but as a training ship, which was also used as a shield towing vehicle for artillery firing of ships and as a target for training bombing deck-based aircraft.
          1. +4
            6 July 2019 20: 17
            Only Utah survived before WWII, but not as a battleship, but as a training ship


            That's right, all the fossil was sent to the "needles".

            Good evening, Andrew!
            No, I understand that without fish you will become cancer yourself. So what happened was what we fought with. They did their job in the Baltic, albeit as floating art. platforms. Well, and "Marat" and in general beyond praise. good

            By the way, I mean the heavy cruiser "Petropavlovsk" (ex. "Luttsov" or "Seydlitz", I don’t remember), you don’t want to touch on its history even briefly, because very few people know about it ... hi
            1. +4
              7 July 2019 05: 25
              Plusanul. For some reason, everyone wants in the last war all the very, very, that then there was someone. But a musket is in every way better than a spear, and a three-line is even better, but it is always worse than an MG-42. But to defend your country you need at least something other than bare hands and sharpened sticks. And a bad three-line is better than the best spear, and the worst fighter Yak, Hurricane, etc. is better than no such. And the stub of the LK "Marat" on the ground in Kronstadt is better than the "Iowa" in San Diego.
              1. +1
                7 July 2019 20: 07
                Colleague, I would not call him a "stub", he still lived and did his job. Well, at least in memory of those sailors who did not run away, but continued to fire at the enemy up to the throat in the water. It is not worth it about those to whom we owe our lives.
                1. +2
                  8 July 2019 18: 01
                  A stub in the sense that there was no bow. And the battleship was actually sunk. Under no circumstances should he have fought. But he was put into operation, raised the flag and fired at the enemy. Although according to the concepts of some, it was junk for 20 years before. Against Tirpitz, yes. But there was no Tirpitz. And the Germans under fire 12 "will not be envied.
                  All on the basis of Margelov’s principle: you can’t stand, - step down while lying down.
                  I didn’t lay anything offensive or unjust. On the contrary. It is worth comparing with the Russian fleet in the Russian-Japanese war. The Soviet were assigned a task and people walked and carried out. Ghibli and performed. Because those Germans who drowned the British in the open sea, could not sink ours in Kronstadt in the winter. People fought not as before. And the ships ... What were. We had no others. Are they bad, good ... There were anti-aircraft guns, PAUSO ... - the country gave the maximum that it could. People too.
                  1. 0
                    8 July 2019 18: 10
                    All right hi But about the sinking of ours in Kronstadt - even Prien could not do this, and even in the summer. Not Scapa Flow. smile
            2. +1
              7 July 2019 10: 03
              Quote: Sea Cat
              That's right, all the fossil was sent to the "needles".

              Nuuu, I will reach the assessment of "Sevastopol" later :)))) I would not like to anticipate :)
              1. 0
                7 July 2019 20: 10
                Andrei hi , the assessment of "Sevastopol" during the second war has long been given, do you have something to add to this? It will be interesting to sift. hi
                1. 0
                  7 July 2019 21: 48
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  It will be interesting to sift.

                  Let's talk :)))))
            3. Alf
              +2
              7 July 2019 15: 17
              Quote: Sea Cat
              (ex. "Lyuttsov" or "Seydlitz", I don't remember)

              Luttsov.
              1. 0
                7 July 2019 20: 11
                Yes, thanks, bought for a patch.
        2. +5
          6 July 2019 16: 02
          That is the point, that the battles of the USSR that these battleships FULLY corresponded to. And for some reason, someone concludes that they suck. It’s strange. In the Second World War, nobody was interested in their short range, weak booking, it is still unknown what. Even anti-aircraft weapons against the stupidity of the Luftwaffe turned out to be adequate.
          And there is no need to tell what kind of master Rudel was, that he sank the Marat. “Marat” was a standing target. And before that he repelled so many raids that only the Americans reflected more.
          1. -2
            6 July 2019 20: 50
            Quote: mmaxx
            That is the point, that the battles of the USSR that these battleships FULLY corresponded to. And for some reason, someone concludes that they suck.

            What a strange conclusion from the available facts .. WHAT did these battleships correspond to? Baltic battleships did not leave the base at all, never in my opinion. It was not easier to just put the guns on the shore near St. Petersburg than to build these expensive, but completely useless banduras !?
            1. +1
              7 July 2019 05: 03
              It's about the Second World War. The king-priest had his own views. The USSR had what it got.
              The volume of concrete work on the 30th battery in Sevastopol significantly (I do not remember exactly) exceeded those at DneproGES. Only the stationary battery cannot be adjusted where necessary. Yes, and the battleship is already there. And the battery still needs to be done.
              Therefore, it is not easier.
              Given the absence of the German fleet in the Baltic, our battleships, which were not very successful for WWII, became quite normal in WWII. The battleship's guns were practically useless against the Finnish coastal batteries. But they are effective against the field fortifications of the Germans. Lucky, yes. And the Germans were out of luck. Having formally sunk "Marat", the Germans reduced its power by only 1/4. If a thing completes the task, then it is good, while there is no other. Even better. And our frankly weak anti-aircraft artillery in the navy showed itself against the Germans. Let's consider that we are lucky.
              1. +4
                7 July 2019 19: 43
                Quote: mmaxx
                The volume of concrete work on the 30th battery in Sevastopol significantly (I do not remember exactly) exceeded those at DneproGES.

                Is it true! ?? What are you talking about !? :) "And then Ostap suffered" (c) laughing

                The volume of the DneproGES concrete dam is 1.2 million tons of concrete. Plus 8 million tons of displaced soil. The volume of concrete laid in the 30th battery of Sevastopol (the largest in the USSR!) Amounted to 25 thousand tons of concrete. You don’t notice the difference a hundred times at all !?

                For some reason, I have not been surprised at such arguments from fans of our friend Andrei for a long time. What kind of teacher are those followers .. Okay, at least guessed with the planet .. It's all on planet Earth, the solar system is happening, I hope no one will argue :)

                Quote: mmaxx
                The guns of the battleships were practically useless against the Finnish coastal batteries. But effective against German field fortifications.

                For that matter, the most interesting in terms of coastal defense are the last Finnish battleships - Väinämöinen and Ilmarinen. Gorgeous 10 "towers from Bofors with an elevation angle of as much as 55 degrees turned them into ideal gunboats. So they were able to destroy both field and capital defensive structures through the use of hinged, mortar trajectories. But they, what a bad luck, again ten times cheaper than Sevastopol!

                Hence the same question - why was it necessary to build battleships such as Sevastopol in the Baltic?
                1. Alf
                  +2
                  7 July 2019 21: 23
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Hence the same question - why was it necessary to build battleships such as Sevastopol in the Baltic?

                  To fight with the XNUMXnd Reich.
                  1. 0
                    8 July 2019 23: 15
                    Quote: Alf
                    To fight with the XNUMXnd Reich.

                    From Warsaw to Berlin on foot closer :) As indeed, and vice versa. Sorry for the money.
                2. 0
                  8 July 2019 18: 08
                  About DneproGES, for which I bought it for sale. As he found out, he calmed down.
                  And why the hell is it useless from those Finnish monitors? Money wasted. But no. We also served one.
                  There is no sense in presenting to the Soviet power the use of tsarist ships. Present to Nicholas. And then ... With him, the Germans, too, did not climb too much into the Baltic.
                  1. Alf
                    +1
                    8 July 2019 20: 13
                    Quote: mmaxx
                    Under him, the Germans, too, did not climb into the Baltic too.

                    For two reasons.
                    1. The main enemy of the High Seas Fleet has always been Grand Fleet.
                    2. After the battle with whom was Glory flooded?
                    3. We didn’t climb, because the Baltic coast was bombarded with mines.
                    1. 0
                      9 July 2019 18: 51
                      They climbed when everything in Russia began to fall apart. The gun crews of the coastal batteries fled, the sailors did not want to fight. It’s bitter to learn about all this.
                  2. 0
                    8 July 2019 23: 32
                    Quote: mmaxx
                    There is no sense in presenting to the Soviet power the use of tsarist ships.

                    Present and did not think. Initially, battleships in the Baltic look like an elephant in a basin. Suffice it to recall how Rurik II was hardly drowned in the first campaign. Cepanuli soil belly in full swing. I barely got back to Kronstadt.

                    It's just a pity for the huge sums of money thrown into this battleship program. On the good, a few gunboats like the Finnish "Vanya-Manya" with their long-range 10 "would be enough to cover minefields.
      3. 0
        7 July 2019 01: 07
        After Tsushima, they tried to create (recreate) the Big Fleet of Russia or the USSR under Nicholas II. But in the only naval battle and the last at Moozund, it was the new battleship that did not participate. Under Stalin, the Big Fleet ended its existence mainly on drawing boards and stocks, and the inherited battleships and cruisers of the failed Big Fleet of the Russian Empire actively participated in the war ... but not in sea battles. The USSR Big Fleet was created by Gorshkov and Brezhnev ... and was successfully created! But, again, he did not take part in a single battle and was ineptly plundered, sold out, rotten ... and huge funds were ineptly lost. The creation of a new Big Fleet of the Russian Federation should take into account all the historical nuances of previous attempts and not resemble the purchase of Ignrushki by capricious kids in a store - like "I want everything at once." The fleet must be clearly balanced and "tailored" to the solution of very specific, and not "cheating" tasks, applicable to each theater. First of all - to protect their own bases and borders, especially in the North and the Pacific Ocean. A madman to quantitatively chase the fleets of the United States and China is hopeless and simply criminal, given that these fleets are initially designed to solve completely different tasks and the shipbuilding, financial, economic capabilities of these countries are many times higher than those of the Russian Federation. The Russian leadership has chosen the path not of quantitative parity, but of qualitative asymmetric one. But, there is also a geopolitical component - "Demonstration of the flag in the World Ocean". Military diplomacy insistently demands that a ship of the Admiral Kuznetsov type be available to accomplish this task, even if in reality its combat significance in modern conditions is very small. But the "Eagles" on the Northern Fleet and TF have quite a significant combat weight. In addition, both "Orlans" and "Kuznetsov" have the necessary port infrastructure, at least a repair base and a sufficiently trained command staff, and, which is not unimportant, an escort "tie-down" up to support vessels. New ships of this rank, in my opinion, will replace the old ones in about the same number, but only after the restoration of the shipbuilding base in the Crimea and the creation of a new one at Zvezda, and the restoration of a full-fledged engine building.
  2. +8
    6 July 2019 08: 52
    Thank you very much Andrew for the analysis of anti-aircraft artillery of our battleships. I read it with pleasure!
    To be honest, I was always confused by the choice of installing anti-aircraft guns on the main-caliber towers! Okay, in the parking lot, they could somehow conduct defensive fire. And if a classic naval battle, how in such a situation to control anti-aircraft artillery?
    The main caliber tower rotates and shoots, the ship moves, the target also does not stand still! Plus pitching .... at least one extra factor aggravating the defeat of enemy aircraft ....
    Regards, Vlad!
    1. +5
      6 July 2019 09: 53
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      To be honest, I was always confused by the choice of installing anti-aircraft guns on the towers of the main caliber!

      We will come to this :))) Strictly speaking, that is why I wrote that the linear layout of the artillery was outdated with the advent of aviation - there is no place to put anti-aircraft guns. And about the shortcomings of their location on the towers - a little later, perhaps in the next article
    2. Alf
      +4
      6 July 2019 18: 07
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      And if a classic naval battle, how in such a situation to control anti-aircraft artillery?

      In a classic naval battle, anti-aircraft artillery does not shoot, and its calculations are skirted under armor and act as a fire division. How many classic naval battles on Pacific were in WW2. Anywhere in these battles anti-aircraft guns and the main caliber fired at the same time?
      1. +2
        6 July 2019 20: 56
        Quote: Alf
        Anywhere in these battles anti-aircraft guns and the main caliber fired at the same time?

        Many times. Suffice it to recall the classic one-on-one Kurita exit with escort aircraft carriers.
        1. Alf
          +1
          6 July 2019 21: 07
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Many times. Suffice it to recall the classic one-on-one Kurita exit with escort aircraft carriers.

          By the term "classic" I mean the battle of surface ships without the participation of aircraft carriers and submarines.
          1. +1
            6 July 2019 21: 27
            Quote: Alf
            By the term "classic" I mean the battle of surface ships without the participation of aircraft carriers and submarines.

            You are just like at the Olympics, honest refereeing is left to demand. Although in reality, even in the WWII such a battle without planes, airships and submarines is not quite easy to find.
            1. Alf
              +1
              6 July 2019 21: 30
              Quote: Saxahorse
              even in the WWII such a battle without planes, airships and submarines is not quite easy to find.

              What about Jutland?
              1. +2
                6 July 2019 21: 30
                Quote: Alf
                What about Jutland?

                There were airships and submarines :) True, without much benefit ..
                1. Alf
                  +1
                  6 July 2019 21: 45
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Quote: Alf
                  What about Jutland?

                  There were airships and submarines :) True, without much benefit ..

                  Exactly what they seemed to be, but really no one paid attention to them.
                  1. +2
                    6 July 2019 21: 50
                    Quote: Alf
                    Exactly what they seemed to be, but really no one paid attention to them.

                    This is lucky. Because how to shoot from the main gun and anti-aircraft guns at the same time, that in Sevastopol, that on the Dreadnought, from the roof of the towers is completely unrealistic.
      2. +1
        8 July 2019 14: 48
        Quote: Alf
        In a classic naval battle, anti-aircraft artillery does not shoot, and its calculations are skirted under armor and act as a fire division. How many classic naval battles on Pacific were in WW2. Anywhere in these battles anti-aircraft guns and the main caliber fired at the same time?

        In night battles on maintenance - almost always. For night battle distances are ideal for SZA and all-rounders. In addition, SZA / UK in the night battle worked as lighting shells, highlighting targets for rangefinders.
        I’ll tell you more - on TO EM in classic naval combat worked on the superstructures of the enemy LK from the "Erlikons" and "Browning". smile
  3. The comment was deleted.
    1. +5
      6 July 2019 13: 15
      Oh, Kolya drew himself :))))) Does anyone comment on this nonsense?
      1. +5
        6 July 2019 13: 51
        40-th nickname went to the list ... laughing
      2. +3
        6 July 2019 17: 16
        Anyone comment on this nonsense?

        If not difficult, a few words about this:
        During the war, the Germans bored the barrels and chambers of Soviet 76 mm anti-aircraft guns under their 88 mm artillery cartridge. And they did. Because of the short barrel, the Germans called such anti-aircraft guns "Russian klystyr".

        And then suddenly I don’t know what, and this is not a twisted story of the F-22.
        1. +9
          6 July 2019 17: 41
          Quote: MooH
          During the war, the Germans were boring barrels and chambers of Soviet 76 mm anti-aircraft guns under their 88 mm artpatron

          Yes, this is bullshit. The Germans did this with the 85-mm 52-k artillery systems, by the way, they were called "Russian klystyr". Here, a person simply has a mind behind the mind specifically and he confused everything in the world.
          The fact is that the USSR at one time bought from Rheinmetall a 7,5 cm Flak L / 59 and its manufacturing technology, and this is how our 76,2 mm 3-K turned out. The same "expert" believes that ours, in principle, were unable to make a 76,2-mm gun on the basis of a 75-mm and from this he concludes that in fact, not a 75-mm, but an 88-mm anti-aircraft gun was bought :))) That is, it is based not on facts, but on the belief in the endless stupidity of domestic designers, the rest is a consequence of this belief.
          In general, he seems to sincerely believe that ours took the 88-mm artillery system and reduced its caliber to 76,2 mm, retaining the same thickness of the barrel and so on, so that the Germans could only drill it to 88-mm - voila laughing
          For some reason, I remember the immortal Vysotsky:
          "He wept, then laughed, then bristled like a hedgehog,
          He mocked us - well, crazy, what will you take "
          1. +1
            7 July 2019 13: 05
            Thanks for the detailed answer, I didn’t know about anti-aircraft guns.
            1. +2
              7 July 2019 14: 18
              Quote: MooH
              Thanks for the detailed answer.

              You're welcome! hi
      3. +4
        6 July 2019 19: 20
        Hi Andrew! Comment on this nonsense is not necessary for anyone, but someone :). I think that as a psychiatrist I can handle it :)
        1. +4
          6 July 2019 19: 28
          Quote: Oleg Zorin
          I think that as a psychiatrist I can cope :)

          Oh, Oleg, how are you on time! hi drinks Without a doubt, this case is entirely in your professional competence.
        2. Alf
          +4
          6 July 2019 20: 19
          Quote: Oleg Zorin
          I think that as a psychiatrist I can cope :)

          Why are you not modifying? How could you allow your patient to be given a computer? laughing
          1. +1
            6 July 2019 20: 25
            We are in different regions. This is an omission of colleagues. And yes - he is not dangerous to himself and others laughing
            1. Alf
              +2
              6 July 2019 20: 38
              Quote: Oleg Zorin
              And yes - he is not dangerous to himself and others

              I don’t care for myself, but it is dangerous for others. Carthago delenda est. negative
              1. +2
                6 July 2019 20: 56
                Yes, the Lord is with you - where is Carthage, and where is Kolya laughing . I’m even uncomfortable
                1. Alf
                  +3
                  6 July 2019 21: 09
                  Quote: Oleg Zorin
                  Yes, the Lord is with you - where is Carthage, and where is Kolya

                  He is here today, and where it will clog .. clog the brains of others, given the World Wide Web, is unknown.
          2. +3
            6 July 2019 20: 28
            But they didn’t give him, he escaped from the ward and stole a computer from a neighbor. Now he is already sitting in front and driving crazy cops. But with cops his number will not work: you can’t reduce it to what is not available. wassat
            1. +1
              6 July 2019 20: 57
              You insult the social group "cops" laughing
              1. Alf
                0
                6 July 2019 21: 30
                Quote: Oleg Zorin
                You insult the social group "cops" laughing

                Why are you offended by the truth?
                1. Alf
                  +2
                  7 July 2019 15: 16
                  Quote: Alf
                  Quote: Oleg Zorin
                  You insult the social group "cops" laughing

                  Why are you offended by the truth?

                  Oh, the cop didn’t look ...
      4. +1
        6 July 2019 20: 24
        Andrei, who is Kolya? Or what? I did not have time, he was demolished to a hairdryer. But interestingly, I don’t remember something like that. Only the legendary Carbine and Major with Twists come to mind.
        1. Alf
          +2
          6 July 2019 20: 38
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Andrey, and Kolya, who is this?

          The one that is from Urengoy.
          1. +1
            6 July 2019 20: 45
            And in Urengoy their production was put on stream?
            1. Alf
              +2
              6 July 2019 20: 47
              Quote: Sea Cat
              And in Urengoy their production was put on stream?

              Judging by the number of them and their pearls, it’s not what they delivered, but they dispersed the conveyor to the third cosmic speed.
              1. +1
                6 July 2019 20: 51
                Do you have any familiar pilots? Something urgently needs to be dropped on this city. Better more, and more than once. laughing
                1. Alf
                  +3
                  6 July 2019 21: 05
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  Do you have any familiar pilots? Something urgently needs to be dropped on this city.

                  There are no pilots, but I can make it so that the NK-32 engine over Urengoy will jam and fall off.
                  1. +1
                    6 July 2019 21: 18
                    In my opinion it is time to wedge, i.e. stop breeding.
        2. +5
          6 July 2019 20: 53
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Andrey, and who is Kolya? Or what?

          The most unique type, with whom I "know" for years ... I'm even afraid to lie how much :))) Maybe 7, maybe 9, so I recognize him from the first line. He knows a thing or two about the history of the Russo-Japanese War and the armaments of the beginning of the century - WWII. But he is completely unable to cope with his own imagination and CHSV. As a result, he created for himself a completely fantasy alternative history, which has nothing to do with the real one, and imagined himself a messiah: with frenzied aplomb, he promoted his ideas on all significant Internet sites, from alternative history to tsushima. He believes in his uniqueness, does not perceive the arguments of opponents in principle, while he is distinguished by a rare quarrelsome character - he starts up half a turn and falls into a mate and insults.
          As a result, on all resources he is already a legendary personality, and he is banned as soon as he appears (VO is no exception), but he does not lose heart, registers 100500 times and continues to teach others about life. Somewhere in the bowels of the Internet started its own website, where it puts out its "revelations" prudently disabling the possibility of comments :))))
          Initially, he performed at the athistori under the nickname "Passer-by", but somehow confessed that his name was Nikolai.
          So ... remember the most inadequate person in your life, raise him to the fifth degree and you will get some semblance of Kolya Passerby. In a way, it is certainly unique - such a combination of self-righteousness, tendency to scandals and absolute inability to fold 2 + 2 even on the Internet will be very difficult to find
          1. +2
            6 July 2019 20: 59
            Thank you, I think I already met him somehow.
            But finding paranoids is not at all difficult, I have already named two, and our friend Carbine, after each ban, is reborn again like the Phoenix bird, but under a different nickname. request
            1. Alf
              +3
              6 July 2019 21: 06
              Quote: Sea Cat
              and our friend Carbine, after each ban, is reborn again like the Phoenix bird, but under a different nickname.

              Hmm, it’s not sinking.
            2. +5
              6 July 2019 21: 07
              As far as I know, Carbine is Kohl laughing But the Major with Twists - did not come across him, I can’t say for sure. But Karbayn is in the list of bots' accounts, Passer-by, I’m not keeping a fig from keeping track of nicknames, maybe later his psychiatrists need laughing At the moment in the list of 40 nicknames, roughly 36 with topwars.
              1. +3
                6 July 2019 21: 16
                Artyom hi , Major Whirlwind is a separate song mixed up on a two-row magazine and cartridge with a reduced sleeve flange, sort of like Carbine was nuts on Kirali and the TT cartridge. Konya Lyudovedovich considered me and his personal enemies and did not hesitate in expressions. On this and burned. laughing
        3. +3
          6 July 2019 21: 02
          It’s you who didn’t look at AI at the time. And this character specifically pissed us off, and even Beard - a person who is excessively tolerant, gave the go-ahead to ban without warning on the fact of identification.
          Moreover, one cannot say that he did not know anything at all, scoundrel. At the very beginning, even such serious colleagues as Andrei and Foncepelin (which is already a lot about me sinful) treated him as a perfectly sane interlocutor.
          1. +1
            6 July 2019 21: 12
            Ivan, forgive my ignorance, but what is "AI"? I really don't know. request
            1. +2
              6 July 2019 21: 22
              In its current form, this is: http://alternathistory.com/
              Somewhat earlier, it was a fairly popular resource among alternativeists. Perhaps even the best. After the modernization (of two!), It became submerged, but now it is gradually reviving.
              Colleagues Arturpraetor, Andrey from Chelyabinsk, Jura 27, Comrade, your humble servant, once visited there.
              1. 0
                6 July 2019 21: 27
                Thanks for the information, but the alternative somehow does not really catch my soul. Are you yourself there now, is it worth it?
                1. 0
                  6 July 2019 21: 36
                  There is such a thing. I myself from there, despite my moderator status, almost left. So I look ... Content can be divided into three categories. There are alternatives in which anything can be. There are alternatives that are less real in terms of technology, historical realities, etc. And there are articles on the real history of science and technology. For example, a colleague Aranov laid out a lot of materials on automatic weapons. Byakin’s colleague in aviation and tanks, etc. Colleague Stvolyar calculated the cost of ships by country and class. That is, as reference material - it is quite possible to use, you just need to know where to look.
                  1. +1
                    6 July 2019 21: 39
                    OK, thanks! If they get banned here, I'll try to "sit" there.
            2. Alf
              +1
              6 July 2019 21: 28
              Quote: Sea Cat
              "AI" is what?

              http://alternathistory.com/
              1. 0
                6 July 2019 21: 39
                Thank you, Vasily, I am already in the know.
        4. -2
          6 July 2019 21: 03
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Andrei, who is Kolya? Or what? I did not have time, he was demolished to a hairdryer.

          "Kolya" is probably some kind of local meme. This is how Andrey's fans from Chelyabinsk call everyone who tries to criticize their favorite author. For example, I managed to visit "Kolya" several times. Although, of course, only the founders of this fan club can accurately determine the parameters of this mysterious character.
          1. +2
            7 July 2019 10: 08
            Quote: Saxahorse
            , for example, managed to visit "Kolya" several times

            Nuuu, do not attach yourself to someone else's glory :)))))) Kohl only the esteemed Comrade suspected of you, and even then not for long.
    2. +5
      6 July 2019 16: 09
      About how the RKKF ships were hammering from the air, tell the British. They lost there during one Cretan operation from aviation, probably more than the RKKF for the entire war. And nothing, they are considered heroes who saved all who can and cannot be. And the armaments and ships, the British were there, of course, full of super.
      The most interesting thing for me is that the same Germans were later transferred to Leningrad. Eisstoss has brought us losses. But .... somehow not quite. It was still winter and the ships did not move.
  4. +1
    6 July 2019 14: 34
    I found a nonsense. Regarding the 2,5-inch gun of the Obukhov plant. The original caption for the photo says that the gun is automatic, and the respected author denies this in the text.
    1. +6
      6 July 2019 15: 59
      Not really.
      It’s just that in those distant times, “automatic” meant something different, namely at least some kind of automation. In this case (as far as I understand), the shutter automatically opened and the sleeve flew out. That is, according to the modern - it is a semiautomatic device.
      As for the respected author, from the standpoint of modern requirements, he considers this gun not automatic, since it could not fire bursts.
      Something like that.
      1. +1
        6 July 2019 17: 12
        Ahh, here it is, Mikhalych. Thanks for clarifying.
      2. +1
        6 July 2019 20: 31
        About "that time" You are absolutely right, Ivan, then all self-loading pistols were called "automatic" for the same reason.
        1. +2
          6 July 2019 20: 48
          By the way, yes.
  5. +3
    6 July 2019 20: 26
    A pure IMHO - it would be possible to remove the entire 120-mm PMA, and then stick it into the 100-mm sparks of Minisini. Released casemates to use under the cellar. Spark six, perhaps, would fit.
    1. +1
      8 July 2019 11: 49
      You are on the right track, comrade Alexey!
      And where to get it is a question for our quasi-engineers. And then these laureates were captured above the rainbow.
      Meanwhile, in project 27 (1944), the bow boiler room was eliminated only due to the alteration of the draft devices of the old (still tsarist!) Boilers. Similar upgrades were carried out at the Japanese "Fuso" and "Yamashiro". At the same time, it became possible to place two universal two-gun installations and a Minizini superstructure mast in a linearly elevated manner. The same could be done with the fodder complex (there are generally no boilers and chimneys). The most valuable would be the placement of four two-gun 130-mm installations received by import from France. If not fused - then four "minisini". and all the casemate cannons were scrapped.
      But at the same time, my principled position is not to upgrade the old galoshes at all, but to build either a BWO with two three-gun towers, a strong air defense and power supply system providing 16 - 18 knots with maximum use of the elements of disassembled battleships, or superheavy cruisers for the SF.
  6. +3
    6 July 2019 21: 10
    Generally speaking, the most interesting question is the supply of ammunition to anti-aircraft guns during the battle. It is easy to guess that no mechanisms are provided here. It seems that the ammunition for the anti-aircraft guns was dragged by sherpas, i.e. sailors with a pair of shells on their backs. All the shortcomings of the linear scheme of the GK here are in full growth.

    However, the author promised to describe this in the next article.
  7. +1
    7 July 2019 07: 55
    Given the role that German aviation played in the Second World War, it would be advisable to have us a relatively small anti-aircraft ship. I read that the Germans made anti-aircraft trap ships for our aircraft.
    "There was also a case of the use of a trap ship by the Germans against Soviet torpedo bombers in the Baltic. On August 15, 1944, a group of a torpedo bomber and two" mastheads "attacking a single transport traveling unsecured through the area controlled by them, was met The torpedo bomber, which had a depth of only 2 meters, passed under the keel of the target.The subsequent analysis allowed the Soviet command to conclude that their enemy was a floating battery disguised as a transport, which had powerful weapons and a shallow draft, so only strong waves at sea , which did not allow the German anti-aircraft gunners to conduct aimed fire, saved the attacking aircraft from destruction "
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Корабль-ловушка
  8. +2
    7 July 2019 12: 31
    The Tablet device most likely distributed the fire to the targets. Otherwise, a dangerous moment may arise such as a hobby for shooting several guns at one target, and at this time other planes strike without interference.
  9. 0
    7 July 2019 22: 47
    Thanks for the article, Andrey! As always on weekends I am late with the reaction - instead of a computer, there are beds, barbecue and endless construction work in the country. No one planned to use the old battleships for squadron battles in the late 1930s. They were retained as a necessary element as essentially scientific ships to maintain the practice of battleship service, until new ships entered service. The shipbuilding data of the base did not allow to place anything much more powerful than artillery systems of the caliber of 76,2 mm on them. If you want more additional weapons - add displacement, make boules, lose your turn, or install new vehicles (like the Italians and Japanese on their battleships). For Sevastopol, all this did not make sense - except with Yavuz, there was no chance to fight with someone, and they were suitable to maintain the practice of commands and command. And they served well in the war - for example, Peter C. Smith, in his book "The Sunset of the Lord of the Seas" as a positive example cites the use of our battleships in the situation that has developed in the theater of operations.
  10. +1
    8 July 2019 01: 05
    So, the monitoring device for the Marat anti-aircraft fire control system was the “3-meter” rangefinders, but, apparently, there were no counting devices. The fact is that such devices in the domestic fleet first appeared on the battleship “Paris Commune”, light cruisers of project 26 and destroyers of project 7, and there they all had different names. And MPUOZO "Tablet" were installed on the "Marat" in 1932, that is, at first they controlled 6 Lender guns. That is, in those years there were no domestic counting and decisive devices for anti-aircraft fire in the USSR, and there is no information that the “Tablet” was purchased abroad
    Accordingly, it would not be a mistake to assume that the MPUAZ “Tablet” was only fire control devices, which allowed the fire control officer to transfer data for firing calculations with the guns. But he obviously needed to calculate the necessary parameters manually. So it is quite possible that the “Tablet” was generally used only for bringing the distance to the target to be calculated, and they had already determined the rest of the shooting parameters on their own.

    Andrei, in order not to "assume", is still worth reading special literature, otherwise assumptions lead to errors and misinformation.
    On this issue, it is best to look at the book "NI Pchelnikov, Control Devices for Artillery Anti-Aircraft Fire, Book II. - M .: Military Publishing House of the NKO USSR, 1940".
    The book describes the device, operation and test methods of the POISO of various systems. The book is intended as a textbook for students of the Artillery Academy and a guide for the commanding artillery of the Red Army.
    As you can see, the publication is completely trustworthy.
    In accordance with it, as well as with the publication of the "Temporary instruction on the barrage of fire of batteries armed with 76,2-mm anti-aircraft guns model 1931 with PUAZO-1 and PUAZO-2 (Appendix 12 to PS-ZA-39) (1939) ",
    in 1932, the USSR had the only anti-aircraft fire control system of its own production - PUAZO - 1 or "mechanical PUAZO Kruse".
    1. 0
      8 July 2019 01: 09

      Continuation of the description.
      1. +1
        8 July 2019 01: 12

        Another page.
        1. +1
          8 July 2019 01: 15

          End of device description.
          1. +2
            8 July 2019 01: 18

            In practice, working with this poise looked like this.
            Obviously, the "Tablet" you mentioned is the overwhelmed Kruse. There were no other options physically, although much more advanced systems were produced abroad.
            1. +1
              8 July 2019 07: 46
              Good day!
              Thanks for the interesting comment. Absolutely agree with you that
              Quote: Undecim
              Andrei, in order not to "assume", is still worth reading special literature, otherwise assumptions lead to errors and misinformation.

              Unfortunately, such literature, and it is obvious, neither you nor I have found. You write
              Quote: Undecim
              Obviously, the "Tablet" you mentioned is the overwhelmed Kruse.

              So, let's start with the fact that this is not a fact, but only your assumption, which, as we now know, can lead to mistakes and misinformation. And, in my opinion, it was to them that it led. The fact is that from the description of the design of the device, it is obvious that for successful work it is necessary to be in a resting position - any measurements of a more or less high-speed target in a similar way require the immobility of the device relative to the ground (sea surface). And it could be provided either by installing a stabilization system, or by completely changing the principle of operation of the device. But the stabilization system requires a separate KDP, which was not there, so it disappears, and a change in the principle of guidance makes it impossible to call MPUAZ by the name of Kruse :)
              Quote: Undecim
              There were no other options physically.

              Other options were quite for themselves - this is a centralized fire control without calculating devices, which, in general, all sources hint to us. Kruse's device is relatively simple and inexpensive, and if it could be used for the fleet, it would be used everywhere, on the same cruisers of the "Profintern" type. Meanwhile, there is absolutely nothing about its application, everywhere there is an indication of Geisler
              1. +1
                8 July 2019 08: 45
                Centralized fire control is impossible without computing devices, since solving the problem of meeting a projectile with a target, especially with an airplane, by manual calculations, requires a lot of time.
                Even with such a method of control as "sighting", when each gun was guided to the target independently with the help of optical sights, corrections to the guidance angles, taking into account the movement of the target, must be calculated using control devices and transmitted to the guns. In addition, for anti-aircraft guns, it is necessary to issue data on the installation of the remote tube fuse of the projectile and take into account the third coordinate - the height.
                Prior to the POISO-1, which I spoke of, in 1927, a commander’s tablet was created that discretely solved the problem of meeting a projectile with a target, i.e. did not require continuous observation of the target, which, of course, is much worse, but still allows you to develop data for shooting.
                Perhaps the mysterious "Tablet" is from this series. But in any case, some kind of device should be.
                As for the Geisler system, this is not a control system, it does not produce any data for firing, it only transfers them from the central post, where the data for firing are received, to the guns. That is, the presence of the Geisler system does not cancel the presence of a computer, even the simplest one, but only confirms its presence, since data is being transferred.
                1. 0
                  10 July 2019 08: 01
                  I apologize for the late response!
                  Quote: Undecim
                  Without counters, centralized fire control is not possible.

                  Perhaps there are no problems here. Another question is that efficiency will be lower.
                  Quote: Undecim
                  Perhaps the mysterious "Tablet" is from this series. But in any case, some kind of device should be

                  I repeat, this is not necessary. Let's put ourselves in the gunner’s place, which has no MPUAZ and no one is in command - one anti-aircraft gun in an open field. How will he fight?
                  With the help of the means available to him (binoculars), he will estimate the parameters of the target, preemption, put up the receiver, open fire, and observe where the shells of his weapon will explode. Comparing the deviation of gaps from the target, he will estimate the lead / tube corrections, enter them, and - the GOTO is the beginning of the cycle (forgive me Pascal). That is, in fact, it will determine the initial parameters of how it will turn out, and then it will be corrected by adjusting for deviations. As a matter of fact, the anti-aircraft gunners usually did this at the front.
                  Now let's think - what prevents the commander of the anti-aircraft battery from doing the same? Its plus is that it is not necessary to set the sight on your own, the gunners will do it, and he only observes the targets and adjusts the shooting parameters. And the fact that all his calculations are not on an analog device, but "half-finger-ceiling" do not negate the usefulness of shooting control, because this way the battery will shoot better than if you just let each gunner shoot at his own discretion
                  Quote: Undecim
                  As for the system Geisler - this is not a control system, it does not produce any data for firing

                  In fact, Geisler worked out the angle of vertical guidance for firing at a naval target. By the way, in the manual, a fragment of which you quoted, everything is described. True, I am sure that Geisler could not count on shooting at airplanes in this way.
                  1. +1
                    10 July 2019 10: 10
                    The method of firing an anti-aircraft gun that you described is called "Into the white light, like a penny." You can also shoot at the balloon or carry out salute shooting.
                    1. +1
                      10 July 2019 23: 20
                      So Andrei from Chelyabinsk for about 10 posts somehow “proved” to me that the Russian battleships still turned out to be using central aiming in the RNW, despite the absence of directors of the central aiming, calculating the full aiming angles with a counting and resolving device and transferring them to firing guns.
                      wassat And now he changed his shoes on the go.
  11. 0
    8 July 2019 11: 53
    Thank you so much for the article, Andrew!
    To be honest, I had no idea about the 2,5 "anti-aircraft guns of the Obukhov plant - I thought they were obtained from import.
    There is a question why the pre-revolutionary development of 4 "anti-aircraft guns was not used?"
    1. 0
      8 July 2019 15: 58
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      There is a question why the pre-revolutionary development of 4 "anti-aircraft guns was not used?"

      So we had a 102-mm anti-aircraft gun - B-2. Here it is - on "KyrKava":

      Here are just the "first approach to the projectile" was unsuccessful: loading at an UHL of more than 45 degrees was so inconvenient that it was recommended to switch to charging at a constant angle of 35 degrees with these UHN (which naturally reduced the rate of fire).
      1. 0
        8 July 2019 16: 43
        Thank you Alexey!
        And I learned about the fact that 102-mm (4 ") anti-aircraft guns were installed on ships for the first time. Live and learn!
        1. +1
          8 July 2019 16: 49
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Thank you Alexey!
          And I learned about the fact that 102-mm (4 ") anti-aircraft guns were installed on ships for the first time. Live and learn!

          So with these anti-aircraft guns there was a rather interesting story - they were simply forgotten. The same Tsvetkov in his classic book on "Red Caucasus" has only "Lenders", 21-K and "Minisini" - that's all!
          The antiaircraft armament of the cruiser at the time of its entry into service was extremely weak and completely did not correspond to the trend of rapid development of bomber aircraft. It consisted of four 76 mm Lender guns with a wedge bolt. They were installed on-board on the tank superstructure between the pipes, then they were replaced by four 45-mm semi-automatic machines.
          In the prewar years and during the Great Patriotic War, anti-aircraft weapons were repeatedly strengthened. In the mid-30s, the cruiser installed four twin anti-aircraft mounts of the Minisini system, purchased in Italy for the cruiser "Kirov"

          I only learned about 4 "B-2 from the discussion of the pre-war domestic shipborne defense system at the Tsushima forum.
  12. 0
    10 July 2019 17: 09
    Quote: NF68
    In the Baltic, the Germans ditched the Marat right in Kronstadt with its powerful air defense. On the Black Sea, German aircraft were forced to remove large ships of the Red Army Navy, including the battleship "Paris Commune", as far as possible from German aircraft.

    The Germans were not able to ditch Marat. He fought to the end and beat completely suitable for repair and restoration. It was not repaired just because all the battleships after the war were already decommissioned.
    In the Black Sea, no one cleaned the PC until the end of 1942.
  13. +1
    10 July 2019 19: 32
    Yes, sorry for the money. Certainly would be useful in another place. This is from the point of view of our afterlife. But the world then was like that.
    And coastal defense battleships in all countries were the most useless ships.

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