6,5-mm cartridge Fedorov

175
In domestic history designer gunsmith Vladimir Grigorievich Fedorov entered as the creator of the first in the history of the machine. Originally weapon chambered for the caliber 6,5-mm, it was called a “machine gun”, the word “automatic” that we all used to use appeared later. At the front, the new weapon turned out to be in December 1916, but was released in a very limited series. The serial production of new weapons began after the end of the First World War. In total, up to 1924, approximately 3400 Fedorov machines were produced. Initially, for his model of automatic weapons, the designer was going to use his own cartridge of the caliber 6,5 mm, but already during the war in order to quickly launch the machine into production, the choice was made in favor of the Japanese cartridge 6,5x50 mm Arisaka.


Fedorov machine in section, 3D model




The appearance of 6,5-mm ammunition


XX century Russian army met with the famous three-line Mosin system 1891 model year. The name of the “three-way line” that entered into mass use directly referred to the caliber of this weapon, which was equal to three lines. The line is an outdated measure of length, which was 0,1 inches or 2,54 mm, and the caliber of the Mosin rifle was respectively 7,62-mm. At that time, the main ammunition for small arms of the Russian imperial army was the cartridge 7,62x54 mm R. The rifle itself, like the cartridge for it, was a completely modern weapon, comparable in capabilities with the best foreign counterparts. Fate prepared the Mosin rifle a long life, it was the main weapon of the Russian infantryman both in the First and in the Second World War, and in total about 37 million pieces of such rifles were fired.

Despite the fact that the cartridge caliber 7,62 mm satisfied Russian military, the search for alternative ammunition has always been. Young officers of the State Agrarian University, among whom was the outstanding Russian and Soviet designer Vladimir Fyodorov in the future, followed the novelties of the arms world and current trends. The fact that a new 6,5-mm caliber cartridge appeared at the end of the 19th century did not pass by them. The first such weapon was adopted by the Italians. We are talking about the cartridge 6,5 × 52 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, to the eponymous Manlicher-Carcano rifle, sadly famous throughout the world after the shots in Dallas 22 November 1963 of the year. Mannlicher-Carcano M91 / 38 6,5-mm Lee Harvey Oswald is believed to have shot and killed American President John F. Kennedy. Following Italy, the Scandinavian countries turned to the new patron. In Sweden and Norway, a few years later the 6,5 × 55 mm Swedish Mauser cartridge appeared. For the Scandinavians, the Greeks and Romanians paid attention to the new cartridge, and they also switched to 6,5 × 52 mm Mannlicher-Carcano.


6,5-mm cartridge 6,5 × 50 SR, Arisaka


At the same time, the 6,5-mm cartridge 6,5 × 50 SR, or Arisaka, adopted by the Japanese imperial army in 1897, had the greatest connection with Russia. Russian troops were faced with a new caliber for them during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905, and already during the First World War, the tsarist government signed a contract with the Japanese to supply Arisak rifles and carbines and cartridges for them. This was done due to the lack of their own small arms. Arisaka rifles and carbines were used extensively on navy, on the Caucasian and Northern fronts. At the same time, more than 780 million rounds of ammunition were purchased for them. Also, the production of such cartridges was started in St. Petersburg, where the St. Petersburg Cartridge Plant monthly produced up to 200 thousand of such ammunition.

Do cartridges of caliber 6,5-mm have sufficient lethal force?


The transition to a new caliber, which in relation to all the cartridges and rifle systems that were common at that time, was reduced, was considered quite obvious. Ammunition caliber 6,5 mm differed best ballistics, which manifested itself even with the use of blunt bullets of that time period. In addition, there were other very important advantages: reducing the weight of the ammunition wearable and the better fitness of reduced-caliber ammunition for use with automatic weapons, which began to declare themselves louder and louder. The only question that caused disputes and doubts among the military was the question of the sufficient slaughter of the new cartridges.

The study of this issue based on the experience of the Russian-Japanese war was precisely the work of Vladimir Fedorov, who for this looked at the reports of doctors about the wounds received by soldiers and officers on the battlefield. After analyzing and processing the readings, the young officer of the GAU Artillery Committee concluded that the new Japanese 6,5-mm rifles, like the old 8-mm rifles of the Murat system, were not particularly distinguished by their destructive ability. This was especially characteristic of injuries received at medium or long distances. At the same time, in a collision at short distances, the 6,5-mm bullet left terrible injuries. It was noted that the new bullet had a higher flight speed and at close distances, getting into a person could be deformed and tumble in the tissues, causing heavy damage to internal organs. The main condition for the explosive effect of such bullets was the speed that allowed the destruction of medium-sized bodies, which included, for example, the human skull. In this sense, the destructive ability of 6,5-mm bullets at close range combat was higher than that of 8-mm bullets.

6,5-mm cartridge Fedorov

Vladimir Grigorievich Fedorov


These findings, which were formulated by Fedorov, in 1911 year were confirmed on the tests of ammunition of the new caliber in Russia. That year, 6-mm, 6,5-mm and 7-mm cartridges were tested in our country. To assess the destructive power of new ammunition, shooting was carried out both on horse carcasses and human bodies, as well as on boards, masonry, etc. The tests showed that the 6,5-mm and 7-mm cartridges have sufficient destructive power, while there was no significant difference between them, but the XAUM-mm cartridge was rejected by the GAU Commission.

6,5-mm cartridge Fedorov


Vladimir Grigorievich Fedorov graduated from the Mikhailovsky Artillery Academy in 1900, and almost immediately was appointed to serve in the Artillery Committee of the GAU. The young design engineer worked a lot on studying the specifics of using new ammunition from different countries. During the development and adoption of the upgraded 7,62x54 mm cartridge with a light bullet, the young designer presented his own concept for the 6,5 mm caliber rifle ammunition. The new cartridge of reduced power was distinguished by its perspective design and should have been ideally suited for firing from automatic weapons. The creation of ammunition of such a caliber Fedorov was largely inspired by the experience of the Russian-Japanese war and the use of the 6,5xNNXX mm cartridge by the Japanese.


Fedorov machine model 1919 of the year


Already in 1911, Vladimir Fedorov presented his 5-charging automatic rifle under the usual cartridge 7,62x54 mm (in modern terminology - a self-loading rifle). In 1912, the new weapon passed the test stage at the test site, and the artillery committee decided to purchase a batch of new rifles. At the same time, the designer worked on the creation of a fully-fledged automaton chambered for the 6,5 mm cartridge of its own design. The cartridge created by Fedorov was supposed to be more powerful than Japanese ammunition - 6,5x57 mm. Especially for him it was planned to produce three types of pointed bullets: two with a lead core (length 31,37 mm and 32,13 mm, respectively) and an armor-piercing bullet with a core of tungsten (length 30,56 mm). The weight of the cartridge was approximately 21 grams.

The cartridge designed by Vladimir Fedorov had a bottle-shaped sleeve and did not have a protruding rim, the sleeve itself was quite long (57,1 mm) and was made of brass. In form and design of the cartridge case, the cartridge was similar to the German cartridge caliber 7,92x57 mm (Mauser). The main advantage of the cartridge of reduced power and caliber was a reduction in recoil when shooting, which made the ammunition more convenient when used in automatic weapons, in particular the automatic rifle, which the designer worked on (compared to ordinary rifle cartridges of those years). In fact, Vladimir Fedorov immediately created a system - “weapon-cartridge”. Taking the bottle-shaped sleeve without a protruding lip as a basis, the designer secured a groundwork for creating a simplified system for supplying cartridges and extracting spent cartridges, as well as capacious stores, which had already been brought to 1920 cartridges in the 25s.

The works that Fedorov began in 1910-ies, anticipated the emergence in the future of an intermediate cartridge for automatic weapons and were the first step in this direction. The automat created by Fedorov and the cartridge for it were tested in 1913 a year before the start of the First World War. As the weapon historian Andrei Ulanov notes, under normal conditions, the 3200 cartridges were tested during tests, for all the testing time, the percentage of delays for the 1,18 was noted, for that period of time and the testing phase this was considered a good result. The designer himself wrote that the work on the new cartridge was recognized as valuable and important, and the preliminary tests of the machine gun and the cartridge for it turned out to be so favorable that it was planned to make 200 thousands of cartridges for comprehensive testing of the new ammunition for further tests developed by Fedorov.


6,5-mm cartridge Fedorov


Unfortunately, the development of the automaton and the cartridge to it was prevented by the First World War, which began in 1914,. The wartime did not allow to experiment and bring weapons, the experimental work at the plants was stopped. At the same time, the Russian Empire was faced with a serious shortage of conventional rifles and cartridges for them, which was the reason for the purchase of relevant products abroad. It is for this reason that in the 1916 year, Vladimir Fedorov remade his submachine gun under the Japanese cartridge 6,5x50 mm Arisaka, there were already enough cartridges of this type in Russia at that time.

More than 100 years have passed since the events described, but the cartridge of the caliber 6,5 mm again becomes relevant and in demand. At the beginning of 2019, information began to appear in various media that the small arms of the American army were waiting for a radical transformation. The main transformation will be the replacement of cartridges caliber 5,56x45 mm NATO with new cartridges caliber 6,5 mm. The first samples of new ammunition are planned to be tested before the end of the 2019 of the year, and new automatic rifles and light machine guns will have to be sent for military trials already in the 2020s.
Our news channels

Subscribe and stay up to date with the latest news and the most important events of the day.

175 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +3
    23 June 2019 05: 28
    Fedorov was ahead of his time. Ingenious designer. Even the Bolsheviks left alive and given the opportunity to continue to work. Good article, thanks!
    1. +5
      23 June 2019 09: 54
      The famous Diagterev is his student! Evil tongues assert that the RPD is the brainchild of Fedorov, and he handed over the development so that its progress would not be hindered by the author's "non-proletarian" origin ...
      1. -3
        23 June 2019 10: 13
        It may even be! For something, he was left alive and, moreover, entrusted to continue to engage in the construction of weapons. In spite of class alienity. Not just agree with you.
        1. +16
          23 June 2019 11: 44
          It may even be! For something, he was left alive and, moreover, entrusted to continue to engage in the construction of weapons.

          My God .... What kind of ideas ....

          Fedorov was just an engineer --- were many engineers shot? And this is nothing to say that Shaposhnikov was a Lieutenant-Colonel of the Gshenstab, and in the Red Army he led the General Staff? And Karbyshev - also a lieutenant colonel of the General Staff --- led the engineering department of the General Staff of the Red Army ??
          1. -6
            23 June 2019 12: 28
            So we are not about that, we are about gunsmiths.
            1. +7
              23 June 2019 14: 46
              So we are not about that, we are about gunsmiths.

              So, even by origin, even by biography in general, even by profession, Fedorov is much less "suspicious" than an officer of the General Staff. Is not it?
              1. -2
                23 June 2019 14: 58
                I will not undertake to discuss the General Staff now, firstly, I was not very interested in this topic. But I think that "the casket just opened": the Red Army needed competent specialists, but where to get them? Brusilov, in my opinion, also collaborated with the Bolsheviks? That's all. And we are now discussing gunsmith designers. Sorry. I didn't want to offend you.
                1. +3
                  23 June 2019 16: 11
                  I will not undertake to discuss the General Staff now, firstly, I was not very interested in this topic. But I think that "the casket just opened": the Red Army needed competent specialists, but where to get them? Brusilov, in my opinion, also collaborated with the Bolsheviks? That's all. And we are now discussing gunsmith designers. Sorry. I didn't want to offend you.


                  You say that as if the gunsmiths of the Bolsheviks had their own or were not needed (or less needed than General Staff officers). Moreover, Fedorov was by no means a nobleman or a bourgeoisie, but quite close to class.

                  Brusilov only taught at the academy at one time. But there Slaschov taught
                2. +1
                  23 June 2019 22: 30
                  Quote: Nycomed
                  That's all. And we are now discussing gunsmith designers.
                  you are coprofanthrowing towards the "Bolsheviks".
                  And unfoundedly accusing the latter.
                  At the same time, we use standard liberal methods in a simplified form: wrapping copromass (a lunge towards the Bolsheviks) in a beautiful wrapper (words about a brilliant designer).
                  1. 0
                    23 June 2019 22: 43
                    Do you doubt Fedorov's design genius? And what have the "liberals" to do with it, I really don't understand. Sorry. And about the "Bolsheviks", everyone is entitled to their opinion.
                    1. -1
                      24 June 2019 10: 14
                      And you doubt the design genius Fedorov?

                      What exactly is the "design genius" of Fedorov seen? Where are the many samples of weapons? After all, it is in productivity that a professional is seen.

                      Fedorov was a noticeable value only on the full Russian bezrybe: if you look closely, you can see that gunsmiths engineers in Russia before 1917 NO. (And after 1917 there are none either - they just appear in 30.) The lovers were engaged in the construction --- in their free time.
                      examples:
                      Mosin has no engineering education, by education he is an artilleryman
                      Fedorov - the same, Mikhailovsky Artillery School
                      Baranov (conversion rifle) - naval lieutenant
                      Baranovsky (gun and fuses) is perhaps the only "real" engineer, not an amateur
                      1. +1
                        24 June 2019 15: 27
                        Quote: AK64
                        Mosin has no engineering education, by education he is an artilleryman
                        Fedorov - the same, Mikhailovsky Artillery School
                        At Mosin Mikhailovsky Artillery Academy.
                        Subjects of theoretical teaching in the Academy: main - 1) all departments of artillery, 2) technology, 3) theoretical mechanics, 4) practical mechanics and 5) chemistry; auxiliary - 1) higher mathematics, 2) physics, 3) strategy, 4) fortification, 5) tactics, 6) history of military art, 7) military administration and 8) Russian, French and German. For practical training officers were sent during the summer months in technical artillery facilities Marine, Mining and other departments and private factories.
                        What is not engineering education? And a special weapon. W H. Schmeisser here - was not (sort of).
                      2. -1
                        24 June 2019 16: 28
                        At Mosin Mikhailovsky Artillery Academy.
                        Subjects What is not an engineering education?

                        The fact that this is not an engineering education
                        W H. Schmeisser here - was not (sort of).

                        Schmeiser is a hereditary engineer. And here is Browning "from the peasants". As, by the way, and Maxim

                        (And Edison in general, my mother taught at home --- he would be autistic with hyperactivity syndrome, and could not study at school)
                      3. -1
                        25 June 2019 03: 44
                        Quote: AK64
                        The fact that this is not an engineering education
                        Can you give an example of engineering education for those years? It seems to me that this is somewhat not what it is now. However, despite the fact that I have an engineering education, I can not fully apply it to the design of weapons - the profile is not the same.

                        Quote: AK64
                        Schmeiser is a hereditary engineer.
                        And since when is knowledge transmitted from mother's milk?

                        Quote: AK64
                        And Edison in general, my mother taught at home --- he would be autistic with hyperactivity syndrome, and I could not study at school
                        School education was enough?
          2. +4
            23 June 2019 13: 15
            Quote: AK64
            How many engineers shot?

            Quite a bit of. For example, the creator of sound intelligence Nicholas Benoit
            1. +2
              23 June 2019 14: 50
              Quite a bit of. For example, the creator of sound intelligence Nicholas Benoit

              Benoit was the owner of the plant before the "famous events". This is "another category"

              I am not trying to justify the Communards - I mean that there were no specific reasons for repressions regarding Fedorov
              1. +5
                23 June 2019 16: 12
                Quote: AK64
                Benoit was the owner of the factory before "famous events"

                Benoit "before the known events" was an officer in the Preobrazhensky Life Guards Regiment.
                1. 0
                  24 June 2019 10: 18
                  Benoit "before the known events" was an officer in the Preobrazhensky Life Guards Regiment.

                  Does one interfere with the other?
                  (Co-) owner of the plant he was also
          3. +2
            24 June 2019 02: 17
            "How many engineers were shot?"
            Yes, really, think what nonsense ...
          4. 0
            30 June 2019 23: 11
            And what about Porokhovshchikov, an engineer, creator of an all-terrain vehicle, a Russian tank, and shot ???????????
    2. +7
      23 June 2019 10: 34
      you have a certain liberal bias ... "even the Bolsheviks" ... but in fact, why would a designer be repressed? ... live in myths
      1. -6
        23 June 2019 10: 53
        Taubin myth? Kurchevsky myth? Aircraft designer Kalinin-myth? And a bunch of "myths" that worked in the "sharags", starting with Polikarpov and Tupolev. Here "Legends and Myths of Ancient Greece" simply fade. I’m afraid even to imagine what would have happened to Sikorsky, Prokofiev-Seversky, Kartvelishvili if they had stayed here and not left for the States.
        1. +8
          23 June 2019 11: 06
          As far as I remember, Taubina was shot for not only failing to make the aircraft gun on time, but more so because she constantly lied about the timing and characteristics of the weapon. And the legend was a liberal myth, as if repressed for having created a grenade launcher ahead of time.
          About Kurchevsky and Kalinin not in the know, I read.
          1. -4
            23 June 2019 11: 11
            In England and the States, the terms were also constantly shifted and "lies" about the declared characteristics were also enough. The question is: was anyone there for this to the "wall" put?
            1. +4
              23 June 2019 12: 09
              England didn’t have to steam too much (and any sawing was well covered by the curators of the governments), because with their efforts the war rolled eastward with Hitler at the head of a united Europe ... and for the USSR it was a direct betrayal of the Motherland ... the consequences of lies
              1. -16
                23 June 2019 12: 46
                "England didn't really need to steam up"
                Have you forgotten about "Battle of England"? Yes, thanks to their efforts Hitler broke off his teeth about them and he had no other choice but to go to the "east". And Britain, at first, was Hitler's priority.
                1. +7
                  23 June 2019 13: 10
                  you probably still "forgot the strange war"))) ... and Hitler was not going to fight them ... otherwise he would not have allowed the troops to be withdrawn from the mainland to the islands ... and England would not have resisted ...
                  and it is very good that the words "Battle of England" were quoted in quotation marks ...
                  1. -9
                    23 June 2019 13: 15
                    Read the story is not biased, I am sure: you will discover a lot for yourself from what you did not know about before, or simply did not want to know in principle.
                    1. +6
                      23 June 2019 16: 57
                      Quote: Nycomed
                      Read the story is not biased, I am sure: you will discover a lot for yourself from what you did not know about before, or simply did not want to know in principle.


                      Acquaintance with history will not be biased after the British declassify the history of the flight of R. Hess to England 10 May 1941 of the year. At the same time, a lot of things will be revealed from what they didn’t know before, but bad luck - the liberal conservatives again classified the archives belay
                      Maybe they do not want something to be made public or simply do not want to know in principle?
                      1. -4
                        23 June 2019 17: 08
                        So the question on this topic has already been closed, back in 1946, when the "gentleman's" agreement was concluded between the USSR and Great Britain. The Britons do not prevent us from hanging Ribbentrop (so as not to talk too much), and we, in turn, do not demand any confessions from R. Hess, let him always sit in Spandau. Both sides faithfully adhered to this agreement, despite all sorts of "cold" wars.
                      2. +1
                        23 June 2019 23: 18
                        Quote: Nycomed
                        So the question on this topic has already been closed, back in 1946, when the "gentleman's" agreement was concluded between the USSR and Great Britain. The Britons do not prevent us from hanging Ribbentrop (so as not to talk too much), and we, in turn, do not demand any confessions from R. Hess, let him always sit in Spandau. Both sides faithfully adhered to this agreement, despite all sorts of "cold" wars.


                        About how many wonderful discoveries winked The question is already closed and by whom?
                        It turns out there was an agreement between gentlemen of Great Britain and the USSR that was gentlemen in quotes and for some reason the Poles know nothing about this gentlemen's agreement lol
                        But the Poles were interested in the issue of concluding an agreement on the non-aggression of Ribbentrop-Molotov. So let the Poles be offended by VelikoBritov, for this gentlemen's agreement wink
                        That is, the USSR received the right to hang Ribbentrop on the basis of this gentlemen’s agreement in quotation marks, and the Nuremberg Tribunal and all documented activities of this tribunal are just empty space. belay
                        Rudolf Hess did not sit forever in Spandau, and the version of suicide was questioned.
                        https://историк.рф/special_posts/загадка-смерти-рудольфа-гесса/
                      3. -5
                        24 June 2019 02: 32
                        Nobody took into account the opinions of Polyakov on this issue. It (the opinion) was no longer interesting to anyone, neither to us, nor to the Britons. Once again, the division of the "Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth" took place, by the way, and the Poles cannot complain, well, nothing. They were simply "divided" by Stalin and Churchill, even before the end of WWII.
                      4. 0
                        26 June 2019 19: 49
                        Quote: Nycomed
                        Nobody took into account the opinions of Polyakov on this issue. It (the opinion) was no longer interesting to anyone, neither to us, nor to the Britons. Once again, the division of the "Commonwealth" took place, by the way, and the Poles cannot complain, well, nothing ...


                        Nevertheless, Poland has its own currency - zloty, not the euro.
                        Poland receives subsidies from the European Union.
                        Poland is steep.

                        And more
                        In 1998, the General Prosecutor’s Office of Russia appealed to the relevant state bodies of the Republic of Poland with a request to institute a criminal case on the fact of the death of 83.500 Red Army prisoners in 1919-1921.
                        In response to this appeal, the Attorney General of Poland and the Minister of Justice, Hanna Suhotskaya, categorically stated that "... there will be no investigation into the case of the alleged extermination of Bolshevik prisoners in the war of 1919-1920, which the Prosecutor General of Russia demands from Poland."
                        https://newsland.com/user/4297655534/content/gibel-krasnoarmeitsev-v-polskom-plenu-1919-1922/4109284
                        Simply put, the Poles sent the RF Prosecutor General’s Office, and since then no one has bothered the Poles with official inquiries. That is, the Poles can be rude and then the statement that no one takes into account the opinion of the Poles is questionable.
          2. 0
            23 June 2019 12: 05
            As far as I remember, Taubina was shot for not only failing to make the aircraft gun on time, but more so because she constantly lied about the timing and characteristics of the weapon.

            Nothing personal, but This is utter nonsense - and it would not be necessary to repeat it.
            On Taubina informer wrote .... someone. Bad scammer, and apparently there were connections.

            The last name of the scammer is like you are not known (it is still secret, and probably never will be openly) --- but nevertheless everyone knows it - even you.

            As for the delays with the development: and who then did not delay? IMHO, much worse was the transfer to the production of raw samples (than sinned then ... yes, almost all)
            1. +2
              24 June 2019 12: 44
              Quote: AK64
              As for the delays with the development: and who then did not delay? IMHO, much worse was the transfer to the production of raw samples (than sinned then ... yes, almost all)

              So Taubin managed to combine these two problems - he broke deadlines and issued a product that had as constructive. and technological problems. Simply put, the MP-6 was crude in design and unsuitable for mass production.
              And worst of all, during the time allotted to Taubin for fine-tuning items, instead of doing this fine-tuning, he gushed forth with new ideas - from snowmobiles to ZSU based on T-34 with 23-mm guns (the very ones that are not working).
              1. -3
                24 June 2019 14: 37
                So Taubin managed to combine these two problems - he broke deadlines and issued a product that had as constructive. and technological problems. Simply put, the MP-6 was crude in design and unsuitable for mass production.

                At that time, there was at least one product (well, if only an air cannon, but you can take anything at all) that would not hurt these diseases?

                And worst of all, during the time allotted to Taubin for fine-tuning items, instead of doing this fine-tuning, he gushed forth with new ideas - from snowmobiles to ZSU based on T-34 with 23-mm guns (the very ones that are not working).

                How do you know that? Do you highlight the case file?

                The Taubine air cannons were in fact the best air cannons, not only in the USSR but also "on a global scale." Fact. Do you have any doubts about this?
                Well, yes: Taubin was late with deadlines, and was not concentrating enough. But after all, he was constantly thrown into the introductory "but that would still be good!" But there were no people, and those that were ... were not good at that.

                In general, there was not a single reason why he would style it, or at least it would have been possible not only to shoot - but there were no reasons even to remove one from the post: Taubin was in his place. Perhaps it would be worthwhile for him to give a deputy from ... competent comrades - who would take up the organization of the work (that is, he would also be able to make sure that the TEM staff would also be engaged.)

                The arrest and death of Taubin ... I would not say "did not help anyone" - because there were those who helped a lot. But in general, it would be better if Taubin sat in his chair and not in the cell.
                1. +1
                  25 June 2019 10: 55
                  Quote: AK64
                  The Taubine air cannons were in fact the best air cannons, not only in the USSR but also "on a global scale." Fact. Do you have any doubts about this?

                  After careful adjustment and refinement of the design to adapt the gun to mass production, it is possible that this is so. The problem is that Taubin promised a workable gun as soon as possible. And this gun, based on the promises of the designer, has already been laid in the design of serial aircraft. There are airplanes - and there is nothing to arm. As a result, on the IL-2 had to put 20-mm ShVAK machine guns with their low-power projectile and crap ballistics.

                  And, judging by the further examples of the work of OKB-16 with the provision of obviously inoperable items for army tests, it was not only in Taubin.
                  Quote: AK64
                  But after all, he was constantly thrown into the introductory "but that would still be good!"

                  He threw himself introductory. A month before his arrest, for example, he was engaged in the development of a ZSU based on T-34 with a pair of MP-6. Those most broken MP-6.
                  1. 0
                    26 June 2019 21: 33
                    ShVAK is not a machine gun, but a gun. Excuse me.
                2. 0
                  25 June 2019 23: 30
                  in fact, everything has long been known, and it is not necessary again to look for the mortar lobby and the black hand of the scammer.
                  https://www.kalashnikov.ru/medialibrary/bad/mera-otvetstvennosti.pdf
                  1. -1
                    26 June 2019 06: 29
                    This is the opinion of the "rival group". It is certainly important and even interesting. However, they don't have to tell the whole truth, do they? They have their own truth.
                    On the other hand, we have a flat fact: ALL (or almost all) Soviet air cannons - from the end of the war to the 90s - are easily recognizable "Taubin system".
                    (Well, that is, it is clear that by me recognizable --- I don't know if you can find out. But I can - this is the same circuit used in different calibers and models. And even the LRA is the same)
                    1. +1
                      26 June 2019 18: 52
                      Quote: AK64
                      ASG

                      What is that?
                      Quote: AK64
                      : ALL (or almost all)

                      Oh how! AM-23, GSH-23, P-23, GSH-301, GS 30-2, GS 6-30, GS 6-23, 2-А-42 - not heard not even?
                      Quote: AK64
                      what is recognizable by me -

                      I do not recognize you in makeup - are you an employee of the museum of artillery and communications troops? Actually, if somewhere experienced Taubinsky MP3-MP-6 remained, then only there.
                      Although Nudelman's N / NA / HP are based on Taub developments, each new version went further
                      Quote: AK64
                      But I can is the same circuit used in different calibers and models.

                      That is, to Taubin nobody about the short stroke of the trunk and never heard of it? wink
                      Not much is not the topic but all the same, have you heard about the trucks of the Colchis? - it seems to be made on ZiL units, but unlike the latter, it is not capable of driving. wink
                      But this is the lyrics, Taubina was arrested not for a gun, but for the fact that with 1932g. The design bureau and experimental production under his leadership, ate a lot of public money, and 0 exhaust - not a single workable sample, the story of MP3 / 6 was the last straw.
                      And they shot him not for money spent in vain - the war would not have started to sit in his sharashka, but he was unlucky, the war started, and he received for huge losses of aviation at the beginning of the war - he was actually accused of delaying the time aircraft armament reflected in the timing and quality of the re-equipment of the spacecraft, which resulted in unjustified losses.
                      1. -1
                        26 June 2019 19: 22
                        I'm sick of proving the obvious (me).

                        AGS --- automatic machine gun grenade launcher
                      2. 0
                        27 June 2019 14: 17
                        Instead of proving anything, you have already proved everything, first of all, poor knowledge of the material part, for example, the AGNXXUMX has practically nothing to do with the 17 / MP3 aircraft guns or the Taubin grenade launchers. Even according to the principle of operation of the automatics - the taubin used the long and short stroke of the barrel - the AGN 6 shoots from the free gate and also from the rear sear - it is closer to PCA than to the Taubin products. Even with aircraft cannons you got into a puddle - Nudelmanovskiy N / NA / NR, although they were quite common, but not all aircraft guns were far from being, and from 17-ies the shift was towards Gryazev and Shipunov products and Nudelman Design Bureau switched to rocket subject.
                      3. -1
                        27 June 2019 14: 34
                        Yes Yes. You do not know that the same ShKAS, which was released and put on airplanes --- just did not shoot? Wedge SHKAS after the first shots, stable? Well, who was shot for this? But this buggy device wasn’t just produced commercially (with all the glitches) - it was ALREADY standing on airplanes.
                        Just do not make surprised eyes: well, I do not believe that you did not know about it.
                        And once they knew --- it turns out that you are a commonplace liar - and why talk to a liar?

                        Or VYA-23: so when did this VY really appear? And when was Taubin arrested? So by the time the launch of the VYA and MP would be ready.

                        So come on, console yourself, tell us further that I don’t know something there. You can count the "drain" to me - yours love it.
                        You see, I am a sage and an enlightened Tao. Yes, and nihilists by nature - and therefore very picky about the choice of interlocutors.
                      4. 0
                        29 June 2019 09: 13
                        Quote: AK64
                        Wedge SHKAS after the first shots, stable?

                        Oh how! This is your personal "expert" opinion? Oh well. The problems of the ShKAS were in the high speeds of movement of the automatics - a payment for a high pace and minimal dimensions. Actually, this led to the dismantling of cartridges with heavy special bullets. It was cured quite simply by the introduction of special cartridges 7,62X54 ShKAS with a reinforced sleeve and a bullet mount - but this is not interesting for you, you know it better than others.
                        Quote: AK64
                        And once they knew --- it turns out that you are a commonplace liar - and why talk to a liar?

                        Druzhok link to the studio on the document confirming the low reliability of ShKAS after working out their mass production and launch into a series of special cartridges for it. Will report the Air Force Research Institute for testing aviation weapons.
                        Well, about lies - it suits you more - I don’t know intentionally or out of ignorance, you have created conspiracy theories in this topic, while your knowledge of realities is clearly lame, you continue to live in the era of the end of 80, when it was fashionable to talk about the stupid and the bloodthirsty Stalin, the gulag and the machinations of the bloody gebni, although the times have already changed, and quite a lot of materials devoted to that period will be published, only written not according to local grandmothers, but on the basis of archival documents. But you are clearly not interested in this topic - why do you need it? You already know everything better than anyone.
                      5. 0
                        29 June 2019 10: 31
                        What a joy: ShVAK and ShKAS mixed up.
                        In fact, it is clear that the slip - but how much joy!

                        So: You have been positioning yourself here for a long time as a "specialist", haven't you? And if so, but you CANNOT know that BOTH were unsatisfactory: both ShVAK and ShKAS. Yes, both.
                        But if ShKAS at least fired - and it was wedged from overheating (despite the fact that a significant part of the BC was back), then with ShVAK everything was much sadder, and ShVAK often could not even give one line: tore the sleeve.

                        You can't not know this --- you are an "expert", aren't you. And that means you are a banal cheap liar.

                        And, by the way, who was shot, imprisoned or at least removed for serial production with the installation of an unusable gun on combat aircraft?
                        Here it is. (well this is, of course, not for you)

                        PS: And do not write me more - you are unpleasant to me. And even directly disgusting.
                      6. 0
                        16 July 2019 22: 44
                        Dear friend, open the magazine "technology and weapons" for 2017. from memory No. 4,6,8,10 - four parts of the article about domestic aircraft guns of the late 30s and early 40s, despite the author's obvious gravitation towards Taubino developments, it was written all on the basis of archival docks, there is also about the percentage of delays at ShVAK - read it, maybe you can marvel at the "unreliability" of ShVAK, and at the same time you can find out why the military wanted to develop a new gun instead of ShVAK, and lo and behold! it turns out that the matter is not in reliability, but in ammunition - the 20mm ShVAK cartridge was developed on the basis of the cartridge case of the 12,7 cartridge, in fact, the first couple of dozen ShVAK and were in the machine gun caliber 12,7, An attempt to unify the cannon and machine gun ended with the fact that the shot turned out with low initial velocity and with a light projectile of poor aerodynamic shape, based on the results of studies and full-scale shooting of various ammunition and foreign guns, it was decided to increase the caliber of aircraft cannons to 23mm, which made it possible to solve two problems at once - to increase the explosive charge for effective firing at aircraft and increase the armor-piercing action to defeat lightly armored vehicles - because the gun was planned to be universal for both fighters and light attack aircraft, while without significantly increasing the recoil momentum. It was no longer possible to remake the ShVAK design for a 23mm shot, although a more effective fragmentation shot was developed for the ShVAK.
                        As a result, the entire war, all domestic fighters were armed with 20mm ShVAK guns, 23mm VY was put only on attack aircraft, and the development of the Taubin PTB-23 - NS-23 was worked out and finalized right up to 44
            2. 0
              27 June 2019 14: 06
              Quote: AK64
              On Taubina informer wrote .... someone.

              This is for sure utter nonsense - no need to repeat nonsense about the bloody hebena which, at the slightest denunciation, was enough for everyone - Simonov complained about Tokarev, and the result? Tokarev shot? may be planted?
              No need to repeat nonsense for the semi-literate authors of the beginning of 90-x, the whole epic with Taubinsky developments has long been known, and all the talk about the mortar conspiracy, the villain Nudelman and the rest is talking in favor of the poor.
        2. +3
          23 June 2019 11: 10
          Good answer, colleague hi . And the number of deleted comments, put yourself in the plus. wink
        3. +8
          23 June 2019 11: 11
          I found about Kurchevsky, one phrase is enough - a dynamo-active weapon. This is Tukhachevsky's trick. As history has shown, a dead end. If Tukhachevsky had advanced his idea, perhaps the USSR would have conquered the war.
          Perhaps Kurchevsky had nothing to do with it, of course, you don’t need to shoot for the dead-end idea of ​​designers, but I don’t know the details, you have to read.
          Yes, the catastrophe of Tupolev for his frustration on a business trip abroad was arrested and if not for a sharashka, he would have felled the forest in Siberia.
          1. -4
            23 June 2019 11: 24
            But the principle of "dynamo-reactive" weapon is included in all RPGs, starting with "faustpatronov" and "bazookas" and RPGs as well. As for A.N. Tupolev ... There, of course, everything was completely different. Petlyakov, who worked for Tupolev, did not travel with him on business trips abroad, however, he also ended up in the "sharaga", and no one removed the "execution" sentence from Polikarpov, despite the fact that he was awarded the title of Hero of Socialist. Labor. So he lived until his death with a postponement of execution.
            1. +6
              23 June 2019 12: 16
              But the principle of "dynamo-reactive" weapons is included in all RPGs, starting with "faustpatronov" and "bazookas" and RPGs as well.


              Would you rather than shake the air, would familiarize yourself with the products (not to mention the proposals) of Kurchevsky. He acted simply: he took an already existing gun and a projectile - and ... drilled holes - installed nozzles. It is in the existing.

              Of course, he shouldn't have shot him --- he wasn’t on his own, and he didn’t put himself forward: it would have been enough to fire him with a wolf ticket (so that they wouldn’t get anywhere for engineering work).

              and no one removed the "execution" sentence from Polikarpov, despite the fact that he was awarded the title of Hero of the Socialist. Labor. So he lived until his death with a postponement of execution.

              In fact, Polikarpov was amnestied as early as 1931. His sentence was ...
              With Polikarpov in general ... the Bolsheviks left the bazaar: at first he was sentenced to death without a trial. Why, in 1931, by the OGPU board - by the 10 years of the camps (and what about shooting ???? First to shoot - and then the camps ???). Then his 10 years were made conditional, and later, in the same 31, amnestied ..

              The fact that Polikarpov was arrested "for the company" is pretty obvious ..
              1. -4
                23 June 2019 19: 36
                And what does "for the company" mean? Is this the term in Bolshevik jurisprudence?
                1. -1
                  24 June 2019 10: 23
                  And what does "for the company" mean? Is this the term in Bolshevik jurisprudence?

                  Did the Bolsheviks have a law? Well, just as a fact?
                  It seemed to me that they were limited to "revolutionary expediency". (Well, the desire to "seize - and to Argentina")
          2. +7
            23 June 2019 13: 32
            Quote: mister-red
            one phrase is enough - a dynamo weapon

            RPG-7 also belongs to the dynamo-reactive. As well as the Soviet "recoilless" B-10 and B-11. Generally, most of them are dynamo-reactive.
        4. +5
          23 June 2019 11: 45
          Taubin myth? Kurchevsky myth? Aircraft designer Kalinin-myth? And a bunch of "myths" that worked in the "sharags", starting with Polikarpov and Tupolev. Here "Legends and Myths of Ancient Greece" simply fade. I’m afraid even to imagine what would have happened to Sikorsky, Prokofiev-Seversky, Kartvelishvili if they had stayed here and not left for the States.


          And who of the listed ones suffered "for origin"?
          1. -5
            23 June 2019 12: 50
            Polikarpov, for example, is the son of a priest and himself a deeply religious person.
            1. +4
              23 June 2019 14: 56
              Polikarpov, for example, is the son of a priest and himself a deeply religious person.

              Are you so sure that he suffered precisely because of the origin? Or for faith?

              As far as I understand, he sat down "for the company": a relapse into the Shakhty case.
              10 origin is there
              1. -3
                23 June 2019 15: 01
                To the affairs of the "industrial party" N.N. Polikarpov had nothing to do with it.
                1. +1
                  23 June 2019 16: 09
                  To the affairs of the "industrial party" N.N. Polikarpov had nothing to do with it.

                  and nobody had anything to do with her. Moreover, it is not clear whether the "industrial party" really was. Or as "Tagantsev's group" --- an invention of the Chekists
        5. +3
          23 June 2019 12: 05
          you are more careful about the facts ...
          For example, think about it (tense the liberal convolutions) why Tupolev found himself in sharaga and most of his design bureau, but his deputy. Arkhangelsky is not (it is not quite true that only for misuse of funds - shkurnichestvo ... and for criminal behavior ... we bought documentation on DC3 in inch sizes, but it was necessary in metric ... then Lisunov and his group translated for two years and bought more in the states of the documentation ...)
          about Taubin already commented
          1. -6
            23 June 2019 12: 40
            Nobody in the States was going to translate all this into "meter" initially. If you want, take in inches, this is already your headache. Shvetsov, for example, was also provided with Wright engines in inches. Later they translated themselves. Let us also present the States for the fact that their B-29s, which were interned by us in the Far East and from which the Tu-4 was later blinded, did not bring with them the drawings for these planes in a "meter" and had to translate everything ourselves.
            1. +6
              23 June 2019 13: 17
              Aviators will probably correct you ... DC-3 (military C-47) had export documentation and in metric units ... purely for business is ready for sale for many ...
              and the story about this is the story of Academician Arkhangelsky at the beginning of 70 when he came as chairman of the commission of the USSR Ministry of Civil Aviation to Yakutsk ... well, and what is the reason for him to lie ...
              1. +1
                23 June 2019 13: 25
                Thanks I'll know. Was not in the know.
              2. +1
                24 June 2019 13: 53
                Quote: silberwolf88
                Aviators will probably correct you ... DC-3 (military C-47) had export documentation and in metric units ... purely for business is ready for sale for many


                You are mistaken - the translation into the metric system, taking into account the peculiarities of local materials, was carried out in the USSR.
                Since September, 1942, after being evacuated to Tashkent, began to produce the military version of PS-84, which received the designation Li-2 by the name of the chief engineer of the plant B. P. Lisunov [3], who was in charge of the construction of this aircraft.
                The aircraft was a DC-3, the design documentation of which was reworked with the translation into the metric system of measures, taking into account the use of Soviet materials. In construction, compared with DC-3, some minor changes were made. The engines were not copied, the existing close analogue was used - the M-62 engine of A. D. Shvetsov with the power of 1000 l. p., the Soviet version of the engine used on the DC-3 Wright R-1820 Cyclone 9.
            2. +2
              24 June 2019 11: 40
              Quote: Nycomed
              Nobody in the States was going to translate all this into "meter" initially.

              Are you serious? After what the king had done for the First World War, a whole bunch of things with normal metric documentation and translations? Total 25 years have passed. Did the Americans unilaterally change their approach?
              In fact, the translation of documentation cost money, and the commission saved them by purchasing DC-3, which was careless and inappropriate, given the total lack of engineers in the pre-war USSR.
          2. +5
            23 June 2019 15: 36
            After transfer to the metric system, it was necessary to recalculate EVERYTHING under our standards of strength. Tupolev did not bother. Barin But he was promoting his ANT-25, on which Chkalov flew to America like a long-range bomber (pushing Ilushin's TsKB-30). But, fortunately, he was unable to push in from TsKB-30, the far IL-4 was obtained. It is all about technical solutions: Tupolev believed that long-range flight required minimal inductive resistance and, consequently, a large elongation of the wing. And Ilyushin decided that on a twin-engined vehicle he would be able to organize a flight at a much higher speed and, accordingly, at a smaller angle of attack. In this case, the inductive resistance will also be less. Offended Andrei Nikolaevich. After the war, he also washed Myasishchev
            1. -3
              23 June 2019 18: 32
              Here I agree with you at a time: A.N. Tupolev was indeed a "master". But he created the same ANT-25 (Sukhoi brigade). And the "masterpiece" of the works of Ilyushin and Myasishchev is questionable.
              1. +3
                23 June 2019 19: 00
                Ilyushin created the IL-2 and IL-4 precisely when they were needed. Myasishchev created M-3 and M-4, as much as possible satisfying the TZ of the military. Tu-95 survived until this year only because it was used not as a bomber, but as a carrier platform for missiles. In the event of a real military conflict with the United States at the beginning of 50, it would have been awaited by the fate of TB-3 in 1941. During the issuance of TZ rocket armament has not yet been as developed as later. ANT-25 had a very large propaganda value, but zero, like a combat aircraft. Well, just like the Nazi flag over Elbrus in 1942, there is no military significance, and the propaganda one is enormous.
                1. 0
                  23 June 2019 19: 27
                  This question will lead us far away from the stated topic. Excuse me.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. 0
                      23 June 2019 20: 29
                      Sorry, but the topic of discussion is a bit different.
                      1. +1
                        23 June 2019 22: 44
                        Quote: Nycomed
                        Sorry, but the topic of discussion is a bit different.
                        Why avoid answering when you are "beaten"? The branch of discussion quite organically moved into this channel.
                      2. 0
                        23 June 2019 22: 52
                        Well, look: I will now pick up this topic and I will immediately be "banned", because it has nothing to do with the stated discussion. If you can agree with the editors and moderators, the flag is in your hands. And I am not ready to receive an "eternal" ban because of a discussion with you.
                      3. +2
                        24 June 2019 20: 11
                        We will not argue. Perhaps you do not know what is inductive resistance of the aircraft. I explain. Under the wing, we have increased pressure, above the wing - reduced. At the ends of the wing, naturally, there is an overflow from the bottom up, in this case a terminal vortex is formed, on which, naturally, energy is expended. When flying at a high angle of attack, the difference in pressure is greater than when flying at a small angle of attack, respectively, the intensity of the end vortex is also greater. In any case, for horizontal flight, the weight of the apparatus must be equal to the lift force, which is the product of velocity head, lift coefficient and wing area. When flying at a low angle of attack, the lift coefficient (and, hence, the intensity of the end vortex) will be small, therefore, a high speed (velocity head) is necessary. It was this approach that allowed Ilyushin to create a long-range (but not a record) aircraft of combat value.
                      4. 0
                        24 June 2019 20: 30
                        Thanks! They scolded me like a boy. But I will not go deeper anyway. The eternal "ban", he is like the "Sword of Damocles". Excuse me, something like that ...
                      5. +3
                        24 June 2019 20: 42
                        Yes, I did not scolding, I just explained - the question of lifting force is quite specific. By the way, the winglets (Witcomb wings) at the ends of the wing of a number of modern aircraft just reduce this inductive resistance. Everywhere you can not poke them, you need to comprehensively consider the strength of the wing, etc. Well, the features of the moderators are also known to me here.
                2. 0
                  24 June 2019 14: 42
                  ANT-25 had a very large propaganda value, but zero, like a combat aircraft. Well, just like the Nazi flag over Elbrus in 1942, there is no military significance, and the propaganda one is enormous.

                  Well, besides ANT-25 and TB-3 were the same and Tu-2, TB-7, even Pe-2 .... What do you really deprive of all?
                  1. +2
                    24 June 2019 19: 56
                    At one time, TB-3 was a masterpiece, TB-7 was, of course, at the level of B-17, but it was going to the piece, and our country needed a battlefield plane. Pe-2 was good, but perhaps it was our only aircraft capable of diving, although it was weak in terms of bomb load. The Tu-2 is a very good airplane, but he did not have time to go to war, at the end of it he fought. Again, I could not dive. I do not belittle Tupolev, all people are different, but the wisdom of the leadership is that it forced different people (in different ways) to work on one goal.
                    1. -2
                      24 June 2019 22: 21
                      At one time, TB-3 was a masterpiece

                      Of course not. What is there "masterpiece"?
                      TB-7 was, of course, at the level of shtatovskogo B-17,

                      And was not close
                      but was going by the piece

                      This is not true
                      and our country needed a battlefield airplane.

                      And this is also not true
                      Pe-xnumx was good

                      Pe-xnumx was terribly bad
                      but perhaps it was our only aircraft capable of diving,

                      Again, controversial. Moreover, it is controversial and "only" and "capable"
                      although on the bomb load he was weak.

                      What do you want from a converted fighter?
                      The Tu-2 is a very good airplane, but he did not have time to go to war, at the end of it he fought.

                      This is not true: look at the history of the Tu-2 at least at the level of the wiki: samol was ready in 1940
                      Again, I could not dive.

                      Could not worse than Pe-2
                      I do not belittle Tupolev, all people are different, but the wisdom of the leadership is that it forced different people (in different ways) to work on one goal.

                      / sigh / What did you want to say?
                      1. +1
                        24 June 2019 22: 24
                        There is a book like this: Shavrov "The history of aircraft designs in the USSR". Have you tried reading? This is not a "Vika", this is a very competent aircraft designer wrote.
                      2. -1
                        24 June 2019 22: 28
                        There is a book like this: Shavrov "The history of aircraft designs in the USSR". Have you tried reading? This is not a "Vika", this is a very competent aircraft designer wrote.


                        The source of inspiration is clear ...

                        The only problem is that it has become outdated for years ... 30, perhaps: I was proud of reading Shavrov in my childhood. But I have since grown up and learned a lot of new --- much more than Shavrov knew.
                      3. The comment was deleted.
                      4. -3
                        24 June 2019 22: 41
                        I am very glad that you have surpassed the "poor" classical level of the last century. I look forward to the release of your books on the history of aviation. SK.

                        (1) in the Internet era, no one needs this kind of booklet: today it’s not 70 — there are megatons of information on the Web.
                        (2) I have something to write, and I write quite a lot. In his specialty.
              2. +1
                24 June 2019 14: 40
                Here I agree with you at a time: A.N. Tupolev was indeed a "master". But he created the same ANT-25 (Sukhoi brigade). And the "masterpiece" of the works of Ilyushin and Myasishchev is questionable.

                Masterpiece creations of the Academy of Sciences Tupolev question no less. (And perhaps even more.)
                This is not a reason for "imprisoning", but ANT behaved too often ... not good.
        6. +3
          24 June 2019 11: 34
          Quote: Nycomed
          Taubin myth? Kurchevsky myth?

          Well, read what they promised, what resources they got, and what they gave at the exit. Perhaps the shooting of these constructors was inappropriate, but the fact that the measures were taken in the right direction is indisputable. The shooting took place before the start of the Beria commission, if their cases had got to the commission, most likely they would not have been shot, they would have been sent to Sharashka by ordinary engineers.
        7. +3
          24 June 2019 12: 35
          Quote: Nycomed
          Taubin myth?

          Taubin flunked two projects. And he did not just fill up, but solemnly promised to do it, filled up the deadlines and, as a result, issued an item unsuitable for mass production and installation on an airplane. Under which, for a minute, two models of aircraft have already been put into production. In fact, on the eve of the war Taubin left Il-2 and LaGG-3 unarmed.
          Quote: Nycomed
          Kurchevsky myth?

          Kurchevsky, with his drinking cut in another country, would have waited a long time for tax evasion. smile
        8. +2
          24 June 2019 19: 37
          Quote: Nycomed
          Kurchevsky myth?

          And what about Kurchevsky? Steamed up with Tukhachevsky? And would you name me at least one of his projects, which, after spending a lot of money, would give a real sample on the way out?
        9. +1
          24 June 2019 20: 37
          Quote: Nycomed
          Kurchevsky myth?
          -in the current reality, he would loot KAMAZ exported.
          To rearm the entire spacecraft on its useless plumes - pre-shave it .....
          And when it turned out that all the bullshit is here and the end of the string came up .....
        10. +1
          25 June 2019 23: 26
          Quote: Nycomed
          Kurchevsky

          Wow, what a genius! in fact, Kurchevsky was in the same bundle with Tukhachevsky, Bekauri and many more searchlights-creators of the Wunder Waffer. How much did Kurchevsky put down his money and resources on his guns? and the exhaust is pshik — although it was clear after the tests of the first options that the scheme itself had a lot of unavoidable fundamentally flaws, and yet under Tukhachevsky’s tutelage, they didn’t try to send out airplanes, tanks, and ships — money, time, and resources. to mars winked
          The whole Bekauri Institute had its own flotilla and aviation bases, test sites, airfields, etc. how much money was eaten? but in the end, apart from radio-controlled land mines, they didn’t really create anything. Yes, and the last managed only occasionally use in the very initial period of the war.
          And the trouble is that, apart from spending the budget money itself, that time and energy have been lost, which could have been successfully and profitably spent on much more viable projects.
        11. 0
          30 June 2019 23: 16
          Korolev, also miraculously escaped the shooting, but his leadership was the developers of the Katyusha, who, according to the denunciation, were shot !!!
    3. -3
      23 June 2019 11: 28
      And "Arikasa" and "Arisaka" are just a mess. Yes
    4. Mwg
      +2
      23 June 2019 19: 17
      A great example of this is when openings ahead of their time remain unclaimed.
      1. 0
        23 June 2019 20: 37
        Totally agree with you! good
    5. +4
      24 June 2019 09: 17
      Quote: Nycomed
      Even the Bolsheviks

      what does "even the Bolsheviks" mean?
      is that a party of cannibals?
      Can you recall historical examples of how liberal or Esser or fascist or conservative or democratic parties know how to kill?
  2. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  3. The comment was deleted.
  4. The comment was deleted.
  5. +5
    23 June 2019 06: 44
    At the same time, the Russian Empire was faced with a serious shortage of conventional rifles and cartridges for them, which was the reason for the purchase of relevant products abroad. It is for this reason that in the 1916 year, Vladimir Fedorov remade his submachine gun under the Japanese cartridge 6,5x50 mm Arikas, there were already enough cartridges of this type in Russia at that time.
    Such cartridges were also produced in Russia, at the St. Petersburg Cartridge Plant, and also received from England. I read about the last use of Fedorov's automata, EMNIP, at Bolotin. Submachine guns from storage, in 1941, went into service with the Moscow militia. "England yielded 60 thousand rifles of the Arisaka system with 300 thousand cartridges each, promising to increase the supply of rifles to 150 thousand. month for Russia. This concession was very important, since the number of Japanese rifles in the Russian army was quite large. "
    CyberLeninka: https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/missiya-admirala-ai-rusina-i-inostrannye-postavki-rossii-v-pervoy-mirovoy-voyne
  6. +6
    23 June 2019 07: 00
    In addition to the machine gun, Fedorov, together with Degtyarev, developed the 6,5 mm light machine guns of the 1921 model and 1922 g., As well as the 1922, 1925 aircraft machine guns, besides with Ivanov, improved by Shpagin, a twin 6,5 mm tank machine gun of the 1925 model. year
  7. +6
    23 June 2019 07: 19
    That year, 6-mm, 6,5-mm and 7-mm cartridges were tested in our country.

    "It should be noted that the issue of reducing the caliber down to 6,5 mm, 6 mm and even 5,5 mm was raised in the Russian army in the last quarter of the 19th century. During the transition from a four-line to a three-line caliber."
    - Materials of the Military Historical Museum of Artillery, Engineers and Communications (VIMAIVS), f.8, op.48 / 1, d.56, l.1-9, 25-31 about.
  8. +10
    23 June 2019 08: 07
    When Ilf and Petrov found that the financial abyss is the deepest of all the abysses, you can fall into it all your life.
    However, experience shows that the informational abyss is no less deep and the level of informational materials can also fall and fall. Today’s article is a case in point.
    1. 0
      23 June 2019 10: 40
      Are you talking about what? Is the article bad? -Don't understand ...
    2. +7
      23 June 2019 11: 04
      ... information gap - no less deep ...

      Quite right, and the abyss are connected by the Internet, which, although it brings "knowledge to the masses," panders to the abundance of chuk ... - writers.
      Following Italy .... For the Scandinavians, the Greeks and Romanians, who also switched to 6,5 × 52 mm Mannlicher, paid attention to the new cartridge.Carcano

      ???? For half a minute the author did not spend to find out (from neta)) that this is a different patron of 4 (besides Romanian)
      ... three types of pointed bullets: two with a lead core .... and an armor-piercing bullet with a core of tungsten (length 30,56 mm)

      Really ??? If earlier, the PRC, then where is the armor to find)); and if after- where to find the Wolfram (on the bulbs of Ilyich)))
    3. +5
      23 June 2019 11: 06
      Well, Vic Nikolaitch, hi You are something extraordinarily sharp and categorically today. laughing The people are somewhat puzzled, you would have enlightened in your own way. drinks
      1. +3
        23 June 2019 14: 40
        Do you want me to educate Fedya? Or anybody? Dismiss.
        1. +3
          23 June 2019 23: 33
          I do not want anything, except that this fucking heat, finally, stopped. drinks
  9. Eug
    +1
    23 June 2019 08: 26
    Dimensions on the drawing of the cartridge in the lines?
    1. 0
      23 June 2019 09: 30
      From what? In inches.
    2. 0
      23 June 2019 11: 03
      Quote: Eug
      Dimensions on the drawing of the cartridge in the lines?


      The sleeve wall in the drawing would then be 0.013mm thick — like wrapping foil.
  10. +1
    23 June 2019 08: 47
    A good copy turned out, in vain at one time it was not appreciated.
    1. +1
      23 June 2019 12: 22
      A good copy turned out, in vain at one time it was not appreciated.


      Are you talking about the patron? And who needed him then?

      I remember: then there was a cavalry, and, accordingly, the shooter should have hit the horses at considerable distances. Well, 6.5 effective range and for people somehow had no more than 600 (compare with 1000 in three with a cartridge of 1908). For that time, it is NOT perfectly acceptable.

      You say "what about now"? And now there is no cavalry. And on the other hand, even a company and even a squad (not to mention a battalion) have other — highly large-caliber and long-range — means of struggle at their disposal. And THEN they weren't.
      1. +2
        23 June 2019 12: 37
        Quote: AK64
        A good copy turned out, in vain at one time it was not appreciated.


        Are you talking about the patron? And who needed him then?

        I remember: then there was a cavalry, and, accordingly, the shooter should have hit the horses at considerable distances. Well, 6.5 effective range and for people somehow had no more than 600 (compare with 1000 in three with a cartridge of 1908). For that time, it is NOT perfectly acceptable.

        You say "what about now"? And now there is no cavalry. And on the other hand, even a company and even a squad (not to mention a battalion) have other — highly large-caliber and long-range — means of struggle at their disposal. And THEN they weren't.

        But also about the machine too.
        1. 0
          23 June 2019 14: 42
          But also about the machine too.

          About the same machine gun considerations: it is not for nothing that all the states for a standard rifle self-loading cartridge and machine guns did.
          After all, there is a legend that the Colt pistol was put into service because it drove a horse (!!!) at the target shooting distance (50) --- according to legend, this condition was recorded in the statement of work.
          1. 0
            23 June 2019 14: 50
            [quote = AK64] [quote] But also about the machine too. [/ quote]
            About the same machine gun considerations: it is not for nothing that all the states for a standard rifle self-loading cartridge and machine guns did.
            After all, there is a legend that Colt’s gun was accepted into service because it was knocking a horse (!!!) at the target shooting distance (50м) --- according to legend, this condition was recorded in the statement of work. [/ Quote [quote = AK64] [quote] But also about the machine too. [/ Quote]
            About the same machine gun considerations: it is not for nothing that all the states for a standard rifle self-loading cartridge and machine guns did.
            After all, there is a legend that Colt’s gun was accepted into service because it drove a horse (!!!) at the target shooting distance (50) --- according to legend, this condition was recorded in the statement of work. [/ Quote]
            It was necessary to massively produce and adopt it.
            1. 0
              23 June 2019 14: 53
              It was necessary to massively produce and adopt it.

              WHAT FOR?
              Who needs"? You need"? Well, here you are, accept and release - since you "need"
              And besides you, nobody "needs".
              Yes Same CBT is much better.
              1. 0
                23 June 2019 15: 18
                Quote: AK64
                It was necessary to massively produce and adopt it.

                WHAT FOR?
                Who needs"? You need"? Well, here you are, accept and release - since you "need"
                And besides you, nobody "needs".
                Yes Same CBT is much better.

                If there was no CBT in Tsarist time yet and it cannot be compared with the Fedorov machine gun. Personally, I would buy for a private arsenal. Yes, and for the soldiers of that time, an irreplaceable thing was.
                1. -1
                  23 June 2019 15: 58
                  If in the Tsarist time there was no SVT yet and it cannot be compared with Fedorov’s submachine gun ..

                  Why not? It is even possible.
                  Well - the royal generals without exception .... bastards, in general. Did the councils have the opportunity to adopt the machine gun and not bother with self-loading? Was. Began to do? No, they did not. Findings?

                  But I see that you are a stubborn companion, and therefore on that note, I stop talking with you. Nothing personal - just saving effort.
                  1. 0
                    23 June 2019 16: 01
                    Bye Bye.
          2. +2
            23 June 2019 15: 33
            accepted because he knocked the horse (!!!)


            Again, I strongly protest!

            The Society for the Protection of Animals - indignant and rampant.

            laughing
          3. +2
            23 June 2019 15: 40
            By the way, about horses this (indecent word) was written down in a technical task for a Russian revolver, such as Nagant should stop. Something tells me that the high host commission was all bribe takers. For Nagant with his patron and the same .45 ACP - two very big differences for such a large animal as a horse.

            Here, on elk something no one is hunting with something Nagan.

            For the sake of justice, the then-to-Nagan cartridges were charged much stronger than today's ones available for sale.

            Today’s Fiochchi is weaker than the original one and a half to two times.
          4. 0
            25 June 2019 23: 46
            Quote: AK64
            After all, there is a legend that the Colt pistol was put into service because it was dropping a horse

            The bike is, in fact, a return to the .45 caliber occurred after the Philippine-American War of 1899-1902, by the end of the 19th century, the standard revolver in the US Army at that time was the Colt New Army & Navy 1892 .38 caliber, the terrain itself (dense vegetation) and the nature of the B / d - the actions of the guerillos armed often only with machetes revealed an unpleasant feature - the fighting took place in melee and stopping action .38 bullets were not enough to stop the partisan before he had time to slash with the machete.
      2. +4
        23 June 2019 13: 39
        the gunner should have hit the horses


        Protest!

        It's just some kind of horse phobia (hippophobia)!

        laughing

        We are not guilty of anything !!!
        1. +1
          23 June 2019 14: 51
          It's just some kind of horse phobia (hippophobia)!

          And then!
          And, by the way, the operation also write
          1. +3
            23 June 2019 15: 27
            For sure! Let the tractor plow - it is iron.

            And the horses - they are solely in order to accept unselfish love from people.

            good
        2. 0
          23 June 2019 22: 49
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          We are not guilty of anything !!!
          And this is from the horse-eater / murderer ?!
          1. +2
            23 June 2019 22: 57
            And this is from the horse-eater / murderer ?!


            You are slandering me right now, or your glasses are completely bad and you cannot read anything written without a magnifying glass.

            laughing

            I can only hurt with fright ...

            http://bm.img.com.ua/nxs/img/prikol/images/large/7/9/304997_842964.jpg
  11. +4
    23 June 2019 10: 39
    Photo is where a soldier in Finnish sit with machine guns Fedorov-In the photo is a hefty thing
    1. +2
      23 June 2019 13: 52
      Quote: Ruger-para
      Photo is where a soldier in Finnish sit with machine guns Fedorov-In the photo is a hefty thing

      EMNIP. During the wars with Finland in 1918-1922 at the end of the war, the ski detachments of the Red Finns under the leadership of Toivo Antikainen were armed with Fedorov assault rifles instead of light machine guns. In the "Winter War" Fedorov's submachine guns entered the troops, forcedly, since there were not enough submachine guns.
      "On December 18, 1921, the territory of Karelia was declared a state of siege. The Karelian front was restored, led by Alexander Sedyakin. Additional units of the Red Army were transferred to Karelia. Red Finns who fled after the Finnish Civil War to Soviet Russia are fighting in the ranks of the Red Army. units strike from the direction of Petrozavodsk, and after a week and a half they occupy Porosozero, Padany and Reboly, and on January 26, 25 they occupy the village of Kestenga. On January 1922, Finnish workers demonstrate in Helsinki in protest against the "Karelian adventure" of the White Finns. On February 15, the Red Army troops enter the village of Ukhta, the North Karelian state dissolves itself, and its leaders flee to Finland. By February 7, 17, the Red Army finally knocks the Finns out of the state border line, military operations actually stop there. On March 1922, an armistice was signed in Moscow. "https: / /mikhaelkatz.livejournal.com/21.html
      1. +2
        23 June 2019 14: 50
        I now live in Petrozavodsk, every day I see the monument of defense of Petrozavodsk
  12. +4
    23 June 2019 13: 13
    Slight inaccuracy Fedorov did not develop the machine. Work was carried out on a self-loading rifle in calibers 7.62 and 6.5 mm. This work was prevented by the start of the PRC. During the war, the Russian army was experiencing an acute shortage of light machine guns, and Fedorov proposed to convert his self-loading rifle into a machine gun. Parts of rifles manufactured for testing were removed from warehouses. The 7.62 mm caliber rifle was assembled unchanged, and the automatic fire mode was introduced into the 6.5 mm caliber rifle and the magazine capacity was increased. Since there was no production of 6.5-mm cartridge V.G. Fedorov, the chamber was converted to chambered Arisaka.
    1. +2
      23 June 2019 14: 47
      It is interesting, why at least now not to make comparative tests of Fedorov’s weapons with other, similar samples. I watched a few programs about small arms, they were led by Korablin, a cool, in my opinion specialist. He talked, including about the offspring of Fedorov, and conducted comparative firing from the PPSh, PPS, MP-40, etc., but didn’t take part in these tests of the Fedorov weapon. Are there really no suitable samples? I do not believe! And I would very much like to look at the results, if only in order to fully get an idea of ​​the capabilities of Fedorov’s weapons. (I deliberately do not call either an automatic rifle or a self-loading rifle, so that they will not be corrected later. The meaning is already understood by everyone.)
      1. 0
        23 June 2019 22: 53
        Quote: Nycomed
        conducted comparative firing of the PPSH, PPS, MP-40, etc., but didn’t take part in these tests
        And let's compare Kord with AK!
        1. 0
          23 June 2019 23: 00
          Well, it's not comparable things. I was talking about something else.
          1. 0
            23 June 2019 23: 10
            Quote: Nycomed
            I was talking about something else.
            Where?
            Quote: Nycomed
            comparative shooting out PCA, PPP, MP-40 etc. but in these tests Fedor's weapon did not participate.
            Fedorov has a submachine gun? I do not know something?
            1. 0
              23 June 2019 23: 19
              The calibers are comparable and everything will be clear. I say again that at that time there were no such definitions, such as: "automatic" and "submachine gun". And you are here with a "cord". Let's be more attentive to each other.
              1. +1
                24 June 2019 07: 32
                Quote: Nycomed
                Calibres are comparable and everything will be clear.
                What are you talking about!
                From a post to a post, you directly shine with your dilettantism: at least in history, even in technology.
                Let's compare the calibers. 4,5 mm, 4,7 mm, 5,56 mm, 5,6 mm, 5,6 mm, 5,6 mm, 5,6 mm, 5,7 mm ... what you "understand", you dilettante our?

                Quote: Nycomed
                I say again that at that time there were no such definitions, such as: "automatic" and "submachine gun".
                Tell me how much you like. However, the term "automatic" was proposed by Fedorov to his rifle.

                Quote: Nycomed
                Let's be more attentive to each other.
                If you continue to drive a technical blizzard - I can get to the bottom of almost every word. You will not like it.
            2. +1
              24 June 2019 14: 21
              Quote: Simargl
              Fedorov has a submachine gun? I do not know something?


              Nikomed suggests comparing AKM, AK-74 with Fedorov’s gun.
              But there is nothing special to guess - the cartridge will lose the weapon under the "kutsy":
              AKM in direct range and probably exactly
              AK-74 in punching ability.
              This is what I lacked in both systems in the army.

              The 6,5 mm cartridge would be good for a modern Maxman rifle, and its "kutsy" version is for the standard weapons of the special operations forces.
              1. +1
                24 June 2019 14: 33
                Quote: DimerVladimer
                Nikomed suggests comparing AKM, AK-74 with Fedorov’s gun.
                By poking your fingers into the buttons a little, you can say this directly so that no one thinks out anything. And if you allow to think too much - you can run into "-You bach yak !!!" fool
                As an example:
                Quote: Simargl
                Let's compare calibers. 4,5 mm, 4,7 mm, 5,56 mm, 5,6 mm, 5,6 mm, 5,6 mm, 5,6 mm, 5,7 mm ...
                You are not confused by the 4 repetition of the 5,6 mm (I was the one who was shy - can I have more)?

                Quote: DimerVladimer
                AKM in direct range and probably exactly
                The bullet is heavier, longer and a little faster - the ABS will obviously be larger. But with accuracy - it is unlikely, especially with time: a moving barrel, in two places, will gradually break the guides.

                Quote: DimerVladimer
                AK-74 in punching ability.
                Watching what a bullet.
                1. +1
                  24 June 2019 14: 43
                  Quote: Simargl
                  Watching what a bullet.


                  Easy too bullet 5,45 to 300 m to shoot nicely, on the 500 m you can get into the frontal hatch of the BTR without optics, but this is its maximum distance.
                  In caliber 6.5 mm - 7 mm - is 700-800 m distance, with 4-s multiple optics, a good shooting complex for modern conditions.
                  1. 0
                    24 June 2019 14: 50
                    Quote: DimerVladimer
                    In caliber 6.5 mm - 7 mm - is 700-800 m distance, with 4-s multiple optics, a good shooting complex for modern conditions.
                    Those. we are talking, nevertheless, not about the weapon, but about the cartridge, rather.
                    Then I agree: you need to do something with the cartridge. The best option is to cut the sleeveless (now the chemistry is somewhat more advanced than when it all began) about 7 mm, J. 2000-2500.
  13. +2
    23 June 2019 13: 30
    The Swedish Mauser patron 6,5х55 is still popular in northern countries among hunters and more widely among athletes.

    In fairness, this cartridge in the northern countries was exclusively for rifles, and for machine guns a more powerful cartridge of the standard "rifle" caliber was used for that time.
  14. +5
    23 June 2019 13: 36
    In fairness, the failure to release the native Fedorov cartridges and replacing them with "lighter" Arisaka cartridges only benefited the project, since Fedorov's own cartridge had to be too powerful to become "intermediate" and intended for automatic fire.

    Fedorov's rifles in the Finnish War were taken from warehouses and put into use to cover the shortage of automatic weapons. The web has photos of Soviet soldiers in white mashalats with Fedorov machine guns taken during the Finnish War.
    1. +2
      23 June 2019 17: 31
      Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
      because Fedorov's own cartridge had to be too powerful to become "intermediate" and intended for automatic fire.

      For sure. It seems Fedorov went in the opposite direction and, on the contrary, tried to increase the power of his cartridge, which would inevitably create problems with his automation.

      Fedorov's gun is more of a curiosity than the ancestor of modern machines.
    2. 0
      23 June 2019 19: 10
      Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
      Fedorov's rifles in the Finnish War were taken from warehouses and put into use to cover the shortage of automatic weapons

      Well ? Suomi was more, and only then pppd. and Fedorovskys were literally crumbs, especially since the museum patron
      1. 0
        23 June 2019 21: 15
        Well ?


        Experience is invaluable in development.
        1. 0
          23 June 2019 21: 22
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          Experience is invaluable in development

          this is if experience. and what remains after Fedorov? knowledge, how not to do it? since it is not necessary, we knew very well, but, nevertheless, did
          1. 0
            23 June 2019 21: 23
            A bad experience is also an experience.
            1. 0
              23 June 2019 21: 24
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub

              A bad experience is also an experience.

              yes, that's right
  15. +6
    23 June 2019 14: 12
    Quote: Nycomed
    Fedorov was ahead of his time. Ingenious designer.

    V.G. Fedorov was not ahead of his time, he walked with him in step. He was ahead only against the background of technological backwardness of Tsarist Russia. V.G. Fedorov was an outstanding theorist in the field of firearms. On the basis of the history of the development of firearms, the technology of its manufacture, as well as experience in the use in hostilities, he predicted the emergence of new types of weapons and evaluated the prospects of existing developments.
    Quote: Nycomed
    Even the Bolsheviks left alive and given the opportunity to continue to work.!

    V.G. Fedorov is the father of the Soviet arms school. Under his leadership, was created the first in the USSR Arms PKB. They carried out work on the creation of a unified system of small arms, standardization of design documentation and organization of production.
    These frames are not scattered.
    1. -1
      23 June 2019 23: 00
      Quote: Trouble
      V.G. Fedorov was not ahead of his time, he walked with him in step. He was ahead only against the background of technological backwardness of Tsarist Russia.
      Given the fact that the rotary bolt applied Mondragon for 40 years before Kalashnikov (for STG a bias, like with SVT - I know tongue i.e. if it is argued that licked from someone, then AK from Mondragon and STG from SVT wassat ), and Fedorov’s rifle, in kinematics, is a very large pistol ... Fedorov was behind. But he was lagging behind, because Russian industry (and the fighters), as you rightly noted, was not ready for more complex decisions.
      1. 0
        24 June 2019 13: 25
        Quote: Simargl
        Given that the rotary valve applied Mondragon for 40 years before Kalashnikov

        wassat And Mondragon himself successfully licked the bolt of Mannicher.

        Quote: Simargl
        and Fedorov’s rifle, in kinematics, is a very large pistol ... Fedorov was behind.

        In VG Fedorov's work "Automatic weapons" of the 16 considered options for self-loading rifles, 9 use the recoil of the barrel. Such "very large pistols". wink
        1. 0
          24 June 2019 14: 10
          Quote: Trouble
          Such "very large pistols".
          Still, the most advanced technically - with a fixed barrel. The fact that not only Fedorov lagged behind is a fact.
          At PM (which is a machine gun laughing ) movable barrel, unlike the PM (which is a gun wassat )
          1. 0
            24 June 2019 21: 05
            Well, yes. lol Makarov pistol just top of technical excellence. Where are the backward Beretts, Glokam, ZIG-Sauer, Walters. After all, they have a moving trunk.
            1. 0
              25 June 2019 03: 53
              Quote: Trouble
              Makarov pistol just top of technical excellence.
              In its class - yes. True, even rezinplyuy kicker stronger than 9x19 of similar mass.
        2. 0
          24 June 2019 14: 47
          In VG Fedorov's work "Automatic weapons" of the 16 considered options for self-loading rifles, 9 use the recoil of the barrel. Such "very large pistols".

          Actually, Maxim uses exactly the same.
          And locking "like Parabellum"
          And what do I do? request
      2. 0
        24 June 2019 14: 45
        Fedorov's rifle, in kinematics, a very large pistol.

        However .... DareО.... boldО
        1. 0
          25 June 2019 03: 58
          Quote: AK64
          Boldly
          Who, where?
          The locking pattern is similar to the 92 Beretta and ATP.
          1. 0
            25 June 2019 07: 56
            The locking pattern is similar to the 92 Beretta and ATP.

            And at Beretta (actually, at all Berette) is similar to Mauser.
            And what do I do?
            1. 0
              25 June 2019 10: 25
              Quote: AK64
              And at Beretta (actually, at all Berette) is similar to Mauser
              C-96 ... big gun ...
              1. 0
                25 June 2019 10: 43
                Well, what is the conclusion, I can not understand?

                The locking mechanism of Fedorov is not the one that is "better", but the one that could be produced in Russia. Nothing more complicated would have been done simply.

                So what is the conclusion? Say something you want, I do not understand?
                1. 0
                  25 June 2019 10: 49
                  Quote: AK64
                  Well, what is the conclusion, I can not understand?

                  Quote: AK64
                  Fedorov's rifle, in kinematics, a very large pistol.

                  However .... DareО.... boldО
                  This is not bold, but a statement of fact.
                  1. 0
                    25 June 2019 10: 58
                    This is not a statement: the rifle is a rifle.
                    And from the "facts": "Fedorov used locking by a swinging larva. Similar mechanisms are used in pistols."
                    This does not in any way make the Fedorov rifle a "pistol" - these are your fantasies.

                    But .... but I will not stop you from fantasizing further.

                    PS: look at Browning M2HB --- also a "big gun"?

                    ZZY: but here I am wrong: the list of "big pistols":
                    family of machine guns of the French company Hotchkiss
                    M1917 Browning (Ckm wz.30)
                    Browning M1919
                    Browning M2
                    Browning M1918
                    Fn mag
                    CZ SA Vz. 58
                    1. +1
                      25 June 2019 11: 55
                      Quote: AK64
                      This does not in any way make the Fedorov rifle a "pistol" - these are your fantasies.
                      According to the kinematics. Here is the Browning Auto-5 (MC 21-12) - this is a gun. tongue
                      1. 0
                        25 June 2019 12: 55
                        Who am I to deprive you of the pleasure of trolling the public? hi
                      2. +1
                        25 June 2019 14: 32
                        But I am right: for the most part, the kinematic scheme of the Fedorov machine gun is used in pistols, and the Browning А-5 - in guns.
  16. +2
    23 June 2019 14: 55
    Physically, the author beautifully beat the need for a new caliber. Physically, the three lines remain and will remain the main caliber in the Russian Federation for many years. If you look at the development of the density and intensity of conflicts. Then again, everything returns to normal! Americans since the adoption of the 5.56 caliber with wild tenacity sought to get an assault rifle in the caliber 7.62. If you take a sniper weapon in the conditions of modern conflicts, it became obvious that 12.7 over is a lot and is not very mobile, but the lap is the very thing. So vangyu 7.62 will remain. Perhaps variations of gunpowder. Although our powder is not much can. Elaboration of new bullets. It was promising, but in fact it was abandoned and the old school was almost gone.
    1. +1
      24 June 2019 14: 33
      Quote: dgonni
      but the lap is the most


      It depends on what distance:
      1000-1500 m .338 LM 8,6 × 70 mm,
      3000-3500 m. 408 Chey Tac, 10,3 × 77 mm for longer distances also exceeds .50 BMG

      but in terms of the task, it’s guaranteed to stop, say, a truck - .50 BMG is unsurpassed

      It is good, when under each case the system eats.
      And to the Marxists that 7,62x54 that the hypothetical 6,5x50 is about equivalent
      1. +1
        25 June 2019 10: 51
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        And to the Marxists that 7,62x54 that the hypothetical 6,5x50 is about equivalent
        Due to the greater elongation of the bullet and approximately equal mass, 6,5x50 would be preferable.
        1. +1
          25 June 2019 10: 58
          Quote: Simargl
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          And to the Marxists that 7,62x54 that the hypothetical 6,5x50 is about equivalent
          Due to the greater elongation of the bullet and approximately equal mass, 6,5x50 would be preferable.


          Definitely, but not a tens of percent advantage.
          The recoil impulse is smaller, the trajectory is flatter, the range is comparable ... perhaps not that the cardinal increase in characteristics will turn out, but compared to 5,45х39, the increase in characteristics will be high, but it can only be realized with an aiming complex, and this is no longer a mass weapon.
          Therefore, for the forces of special operations (GRU) - the very thing.
  17. +3
    23 June 2019 18: 09
    Fedorov was devoted to engineering. Not a few of these people continued their work for all the drinking in the country. And many thanks to such people. hi
    1. -2
      23 June 2019 19: 06
      Quote: serzh sibiryak

      Fedorov was devoted to engineering

      What kind of weapon of authorship was Fedorov in service? Or is there?
  18. 0
    23 June 2019 19: 03
    Quote: Spade
    Quote: mister-red
    one phrase is enough - a dynamo weapon

    RPG-7 also belongs to the dynamo-reactive. As well as the Soviet "recoilless" B-10 and B-11. Generally, most of them are dynamo-reactive.

    RPG-7- MANUAL, etc., is infantry. And recoilless, dynamo-is a weapon, artillery. and besides CG-9, we seem to have nothing and there was no, and this is a controversial issue. aot kurchevskogo nothing left, maybe you do not need to remember about him?
  19. 0
    23 June 2019 19: 14
    Fedorov made his rifle cartridge not for the future of his own machine gun (which then was not yet in nature), but for his self-loading rifle and light machine gun. Reducing the caliber from 7,62 to 6,5 mm and, respectively, the weight of the bullet, with the same volume of the liner / gunpowder improved the ballistics and flatness of the shot - that's all. At the same time, the pressure in the barrel increased significantly, which required the use of higher quality steel barrel and caused a rise in the cost of the weapon.

    The use of the 6,5-mm Japanese cartridge in the power industry of Fedorov’s machine was a matter of chance - there would have been no order from the Russian military ministry in Japan, there would have been no Fedorov machine gun for the optimum cartridge.

    The Americans now went through the original Fedorov way, who from despair with the breaking of boron carbide vests announced the NGSW competition to create a self-loading rifle and light machine gun for an 6,8-mm cartridge in a crimped sleeve from an 7,62X51 cartridge with an increased barrel pressure

    1. 0
      25 June 2019 10: 54
      Quote: Operator
      Reducing the caliber from 7,62 to 6,5 mm and, respectively, the weight of the bullet, with the same volume of the liner / gunpowder improved the ballistics and flatness of the shot - that's all.
      The difference in the mass of the bullet in 7,62x54 and 6,5x50 - 0,2g approximately. This is 2,5%. Not fundamentally. The energy of the shot is about the same (at that time, 7,62x54 made 1,5 times more powerful after the revolution).
  20. The comment was deleted.
    1. 0
      23 June 2019 20: 59
      Russian caliber constructor (2014)
      https://my.mail.ru//list/svarog.1975/video/176/59891.html
  21. +3
    24 June 2019 05: 04
    ABOUT! As soon as something good begins to talk about the USSR, then the liberals immediately fly in and start whining about executions and repressions.
  22. 0
    24 June 2019 12: 53
    There is no prophet in his own country.
  23. +1
    25 June 2019 06: 19
    Quote: AK64
    Mosin has no engineering education, by education he is an artilleryman
    Fedorov - the same, Mikhailovsky Artillery School
    At Mosin Mikhailovsky Artillery Academy.
    Subjects of theoretical teaching in the Academy: main - 1) all departments of artillery, 2) technology, 3) theoretical mechanics, 4) practical mechanics and 5) chemistry; auxiliary - 1) higher mathematics, 2) physics, 3) strategy, 4) fortification, 5) tactics, 6) history of military art, 7) military administration and 8) Russian, French and German. For practical training officers were sent during the summer months in technical artillery facilities Marine, Mining and other departments and private factories.
    What is not engineering education? And a special weapon. W H. Schmeisser here - was not (sort of).


    In the personnel department:

    We ask you a diploma of higher education, and what do you show us?
    Some kind of school ... technical ... named after Bauman ...
    From life.
    1. 0
      25 June 2019 17: 27
      Automatic Fedorov.
  24. 0
    5 May 2021 03: 37
    Forgiveness for interrupting the topic so beloved by the liberals ... and returning to Fedorov.
    As far as I heard - I am not a great connoisseur - that his contribution was more to the creation of the Soviet weapons school, this is evident from his works. But I have not seen the characteristics of his cartridge before, but here it is. And the question arises: what is in his patron from the "intermediate"? In fact, it is very close to the 6,5 Mauser. Arisakovsky - will be closer to the "intermediate". Maybe I don’t know something?
    PS And "Sharashki" were calculated on the fact that a person has only one concern - this is work. There is no worries that the mother-in-law has gone into a binge, the father-in-law has gone "for the peasants", the wife's beloved doggy has broken her tail .... Everyday life - he remained "outside", here - only work. In that sharaga that was in "Kresty" people ordered their own menu for tomorrow.

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned), Kirill Budanov (included to the Rosfinmonitoring list of terrorists and extremists)

“Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev Lev; Ponomarev Ilya; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; Mikhail Kasyanov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"