The most revered Russian hero. Ilya Muromets

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As we found out in the previous article ("Heroes of epics and their possible prototypes"), Russian heroic epics, unfortunately, cannot be recognized historical sources. The oral folk history does not know the exact dates and ignores the course of events known to us from the annals. The storytellers consider it sufficient to tell their listeners the name of the main character of the epic, the place of action (sometimes real-life cities and rivers, sometimes fictitious), and the time of the epic events - under the prince of Kiev Vladimir Krasno Solnyshko. Lyrics of epics were not recorded, perhaps the heroes of some of them were also unknown to us heroes. And only the heroes who were most loved by the audience remained in the people's memory, finding themselves more and more opponents, fighting at first with the Khazars and Pechenegs, then with the Polovtsy and Tatars. And although in our time we can only guess about which of the real princes and their warriors could serve as the prototype of this or that epic hero, a number of attempts have been made to such identification. Some of them were described in a previous article, today we’ll talk about the most “popular” and beloved of the heroes - Ilya Muromets, whose personality is of most interest to both professional historians and readers.


So, according to V.M. Vasnetsov, looked Ilya of Murom. Fragment of the painting "Warriors"




The most revered Russian hero. Ilya Muromets

And so Ilya Muromets saw Soviet television viewers in 1956.


The first mention of Elijah in a historical source


The researchers have done quite a lot of work and obtained very interesting results. For example, it turned out that for the first time in the historical document the name of Ilya is mentioned in 1574 of the Headman of the Belarusian city of Orsha Kmit Chernobyl, complaining about the border service and inattention to their needs, wrote to the authorities: “The time will come, there will be a need for Ilya Muravlenin”.

Since Orsha’s fortress was then Lithuanian, it can be concluded that in the second half of the 16th century, Ilya Muromets was a nationwide hero on the territory of all the lands of the former “Kievan” Russia - Moscow State and the Ukrainian and Belarusian regions that had departed to Lithuania. Because the headman Orsha, who is demanding an increase in funding, would hardly have mentioned in his letter a “alien” or even a hostile bogatyr.

Birthplace of the hero


It must be said that modern researchers are skeptical of texts telling about the birth of Ilya in the famous village of Karacharov, that near Murom, where, supposedly, even the direct descendants of this hero by the name of Guschina live. It has long been proven that this village was founded in the 17th century, and, therefore, its natives cannot have anything to do with the events of centuries ago. Yes, and with geography in this case, there are continuous discrepancies. Ilya travels from Murom through Chernigov to Kiev by “an expensive straight-line traveler” - as a result, near the Smorodina River: it is on its banks that the Nightingale the Robber leaps near the Black Mud. But the epic Currant is the left tributary of the Dnieper Samara (Sneporod). It flows through the territory of the Donetsk, Kharkiv and Dnipropetrovsk regions, to the south of the "direct" route to Kiev. Now, if we assume that the hero’s homeland and the starting point of his journey was the city of Karachev in the modern Bryansk region, the “canonical” route of Ilya looks quite possible.

But there are lesser known versions of the epic, according to which Ilya arrives in Kiev not through Chernihiv, but through Smolensk, or through Sebezh, and even through Turov or Kryakov (Krakow). Sometimes Ilya is called not Muromts, but Muravts, Moravlins and Muravlyanin. This was the basis for assumptions that the city of Moors of the Chernihiv region or Moravia (a region in the modern Czech Republic) may be the birthplace of the bogatyr. The fact is that in the Russian sources up to the XVI century, the Moravian princes are clearly perceived as one of the Russians. And the Nikon Chronicle calls the Moravians precisely the Moravians.


Moravia on the map of the Czech Republic


Now, many historians are inclined to believe that epic stories about Illya Muromets originally appeared in Kiev, and only then gradually, together with immigrants from more southern lands, penetrated to the northeast of Russia. Perhaps, the descendants of these migrants eventually replaced in the texts the distant and half-forgotten Moravia, Moors or Karachev with friends and friends of Moore and Karacharovo.

In defense of the “Murom” version, it should be said that VF Miller believed that the image of Ilya of Murom merged the features of two different heroes — the “north-west”, who received power from Svyatogory, and the “north-east” —the Murom sick peasant, healed with Kaliki. In this case, many contradictions disappear.

By the way, the epic about Ilya Muromets and Nightingale the Robber is interesting because there is a hidden reference to the time of writing in her text. The fact is that the Novgorodians were the first to come to Zalessky Rus from the north-west. And only then in the impassable Bryn forests began to clean the roads to Kiev and Chernigov. It happened approximately in the middle of the XII century - under Vladimir Prince Vsevolod the Big Nest: the author of the “Lay of Igor” laid particular hopes on him for the protection of the Russian land from the Polovtsy. And from here, from the Zalessky Rus, according to the narrators, his main protector should come to Kiev.



Novgorod trace: image development


Sometimes Kiev bogatyr Illya instead of traditional nomads faces completely different opponents. In one of the epic versions of the three trips of Ilya of Murom there are such lines:
[quote] surrounded Ilya of Murom
In the hoods people are black -
Crow covers,
Hoodie long -
Know the monks is all al priests!
Persuade the knight
Throw Russian Orthodox law.
For treason
All promise sulu great,
And honor, and respect ... "
After the failure of the hero:
"Bashlyki undress here,
Hoodies are thrown off -
Not monks, black
Not priests dolgopoliki,
Latin warriors are standing -
Sword Giants. [/ Quote]


Illustration of S. Gilev to the epic of the three trips of Ilya Muromets



Knight of the Order of the Sword


Before us is a fairly realistic description of warriors of knightly orders, even the name of a particular order is given. And these are already opponents of the Lord Novgorod the Great. This story could have appeared when “refugees” from the lands of the southern principalities that were constantly ruined by the Polovtsi came to Zalessky Rus, originally inhabited by Novgorod. After reviewing their "songs", the Novgorodians could compose their own - about the new adventures of the hero they liked.

Prototypes of Ilya Muromets


But who could serve as a historical prototype for the image of this hero? Different assumptions were made. N.D. Kvashnin-Samarin, for example, identified Ilya of Murom with the bogatyr Rogdaem, who allegedly went alone against opponents of 300 and whose death was mourned by Vladimir Svyatoslavich. In the Nikon chronicle under the 6508 (1000) year you can read:
[Quote] "Cease to be Ragdai the Bare, as thou sewed upon three hundred warriors." [/ quote]

N.P. Dashkevich, finding in Lavrentiev’s chronicle under 1164 a reference to a certain Ilya — Suzdal after Constantinople, recalled the trip of the epic hero to Constantinople. D.N. Ilovaisky talked about Bolotnikov's associate - the Cossack Elika Muromets (this, by the way, is a direct indication of the time of writing such epics - the Time of Troubles). But most researchers consider the image of Ilya of Murom to be collective.


Ilya Muromets, a frame from the movie 1956


Elias von reuisen


Traces of "our" Ilya Muromets can be found in foreign literary sources. Two Western European epic poems (Ortnit and The Dietrich of Bern Saga) have reached our time, in which there is a hero, called Ilya (Ilias) from Russia (von Reuisen). True, Russian researchers A.N. Veselovsky and M.G. Khalansky, although they came to the conclusion that the legends about Ilias fell into the German epic from Russian epic songs, they decided that the source for the poem Ortnit was the epics not about Ilya Muromets, but about Volga Vseslavich. In the adventures of this hero, there are close parallels with the plot of this German poem. In addition, the authors did not rule out the use by Germans of echoes of folk legends about the Scandinavian hero Helga - the beloved Valkyrie Hild (battle) Sigrun, who was killed by the spear of Odin and became the leader of the Eynherian (Valhalla warriors). This is the brother of the famous Sigurd-Siegfried (who defeated the dragon and bathed in his blood). However, “Helgi” in those times was often not a name, but a title meaning “the Prophetic leader”, “the Leader driven by spirits”. And many kings who went down in history, like Helgi, bore a different name. In Russian history there is a prince named “Helga” twice - this is the famous Prophet Oleg (Oleg and Olga are Russian versions of this name): the Slavs literally translated the title of prince into their language. In their assumptions, Veselovsky and Khalyansky were based on the fact that in various versions of these poems the hero is also called Iligas or Eligast (and it is literally one step from Eligast to Helga). Some have suggested that Ilias von Reuisen could be our Prophetic Oleg.

But back to the above German poems.

So, the first of them, Ortnit, a southern German, from the Lombard cycle, was written in the first half of the 13th century (around 1220 — 1230).


"Ortnit gegen den Drachen reitend", illustration to the poem "Ortnit"


Here, Ilias is the uncle and mentor of King Ortnit of Lombardy, with whom he makes a successful campaign in Syria in order to get King Mahorell’s daughter. It is curious that in one of the epic versions of the marriage of Dobrynia Nikitich there is a similar plot: to bring a wife who “pulled off” Dobrynya from the saddle (with the help of a lassan) at the first “date” ... Of course, Ilya Muromets.

In the poem "Ortnit" states that the main city of Russia was Holmgard. This is consistent with the information of other, already historical sagas, which report that the best part of the Gardariki of the times of St. Vladimir and Yaroslav the Wise and its main city was Novgorod.

The second poem, the hero of which is Ilias - recorded in Norway near 1250. The Saga of Dietrich (Tidreke) Bern (genre - the saga of ancient times, the text indicates that it is composed of ancient German legends and songs).


Dietrich of Bern, illustration by Hugo L.Braune


Curiously, some of the information and plotlines of this poem echo the data given in the Novgorod Ioakimovskaya chronicle (not very reliable source of the XVIII century). Both this chronicle and Saga ... relate the lifetime of the “ancient prince Vladimir” (King Valdimar) to the 5th century. Consequently, in the V century the prince’s best knight, Ilya (Earl Ilias), was supposed to live.

So, in the "Saga of Dietrich Bern," which served as one of the main sources for the "Song of the Nibelungen", tells about the events of the 5th century. AD - This is the era of the Great Migration. The main characters of this work are the Gothic king Dietrich (Theodoric) and the leader of the Huns Attila, who, in fact, were not contemporaries: Attila died in 453, Theodoric was born in 454. Here Ilias is a Greek Jarl, the son of King Kong, Gernita, the brother of Vilkin's king, Osantrix, and the Russian king, Valdimar. Sometimes Ilias von Reuisen is not the brother, but the uncle of the “Russian king Valdimar”, who by most of the researchers correlates with the prince Vladimir of Russian epics. But perhaps it is a question of the Danish king Valdemar I, born in Russia, the great-grandson of Vladimir Monomakh. Ilias von Reuisen is called in the saga "the great sovereign and the powerful knight", and it is stated that he was a Christian (in the V century!).

In this saga it is told, among other things, about joint campaigns of the Huns and is ready against King Kondi Valdimar. In one of the main battles with the Goths, Ilias, Jarl Valdimar, knocked off his best opponent's warrior, Hildbrand, after which the Goths retreated. But six months later, the combined forces of Attila and Dietrich laid siege to Polotsk and took him after the 3-month siege. In the decisive battle, Dietrich Berne delivered a mortal blow to Vladimir, the Russians were defeated, but Attila retained Ilias his hereditary possessions.

Remember the opinion of Miller? Ilias von Reuisen is clearly the northwestern Ilya: the one that received his power from Svyatogory. Descended from a peasant family, Ilya from Murom is completely different from the jarl-warrior of German poems.

Interestingly, Saxon Grammar in Acts of the Danes (in the part that is based on the epic tales of the Danes) also mentions the war with the Huns and Polotsk. In one of the battles in the territory of the future Russia (which Saxo calls Holmgardia) the Huns, according to him, suffered a heavy defeat: “Such piles of people were killed that three main rivers of Russia, paved with corpses, like bridges, became easily passable for pedestrians”.

And here is the unexpected testimony of Paul Jovius Novokomsky from 1525 year. He claims that the Russian ambassador in Rome, Dmitry Gerasimov, was asked:
[Quote] “Does not the Russians, some word of mouth from ancestors, have any news of the Goths, or some recorded memory of this people, who overthrew the city of Caesars and the city of Rome a thousand years before us.” [ / quote]

Gerasimov replied:
[Quote] “The name of the Gothic people and the king of Totila is well-known among them and many people gathered together for this campaign and mostly before the other Muscovites ... but all were called Goths because the Goths who inhabited the island of Iceland or Scandinavia (Scandauiam) were instigators of this campaign. "[/ quote]

In our time, one can only guess: in fact, in the XVI century, the memory of the grandiose campaigns of the Epoch of the Migration of Peoples remained in Russia, or did Gerasimov simply come up with all this in order to give more significance to his person and to the state he represented?

Some historians suggest that the plots of Russian epics could come to Germany from the writings of Tithmar of Merseburg, where the war of the children of Vladimir Svyatoslavich who died in 1015 is described. Others believe that information came from the people of the German wife of Prince Svyatoslav Yaroslavich (1027-1076) - Countess Oda Stadenskaya (relative of Emperor Henry III and Pope Leo IX). According to the third version, they learned about the epic Ilja and Vladimir in Germany through German merchants who visited Russia in the 11th — 12th centuries.

Death of Ilya Muromets


The storytellers are unanimous in their opinion: Ilya was not destined to die in battle, while in a number of texts there were indications that Ilya was not a gift or a “curse”. Only once does he end up on the brink of destruction - when his own son, Sokolnik, is born, born by a woman from the Alien world - Zlatigorka or, in another version, by Goryninka (is it not one of those places from where the Serpent Gorynych flew to Russia?) . Sokolnik's peers from their childhood teased them with a “sampler” and “fatherlessness”, and therefore he hates his unknown father.


Sokolnik childhood - a pupil and the name of the son of Tsar Kalin, shot from the Soviet film 1956.


In 12-year-old Sokolnik, called the “evil Tatar”, is sent to Kiev. When his son goes on a campaign, his mother asks him not to engage in battle with the Russian bogatyr Ilya Muromets, but her words lead to an unforeseen result: now Sokolnik knows the name of his father and is eager to meet him "in the Field" - of course, not to conclude in kindred hugs. He does not go on his way alone: ​​he is accompanied by two wolves (gray and black), a white gyrfalcon, as well as a nightingale and a morning bird, who seem superfluous in this harsh company. However, it turns out that they:
[Quote] Flit from hand to hand
Wearing whistles from ear to ear
Pursue, well-done fellows travel. [/ Quote]

In general, they entertain a teenager on the road - they have not yet invented audio players.


Alexander Shvorin as Sokolnichka, 1956


The power of Sokolnik over animals and birds indicates that it belongs to the wizarding world and underlines the hostility and alienity for Russia.

The border service in Russia, if you believe this epic, was not put in the best way, because the heroes slept the foreign knight, finding him only thanks to the news of a thrush or a crow — when Sokolnik, not noticing the outpost, had already driven past them towards Kiev (even which is especially outrageous, “I didn’t put the roadside penny into the treasury”!). It is necessary to catch up, but whom to send for the intruder, whose horse is like a fierce beast - fire is bursting out of his mouth, sparks are flying from his nostrils, and he himself is playing with a huge club like a swan feather, and the arrows, fired for fun, catch on the fly?

After some thought, Ilya Muromets rejects the candidacies of the “Zalashanyev men”, the seven brothers Srodovich, Vaska Dolgopologo, Mishka Turupanishki, Samson Kolybanov, Grishenka Boyarsky (in different versions of the epics are called different names) and even Alesha Popovich. Sends Dobrynya Nikitich, who "knows with the hero he will move together, he knows the hero and the honor to give." That is, decides to first try to negotiate with an unknown hero in an amicable way. Sokolnik did not enter into negotiations, but the matter did not come to a duel:
[Quote] As a good young man of a hero heard,
He roared himself like a wild beast
From the roar of youth
Chipped cheese ground
Poured water from the rivers
Good horse Dobrynin stunned,
Dobrynya himself frightened on horseback,
I prayed to God the Lord
Mother of the Most Holy Theotokos:
Take me away from an imminent death, Lord! [/ Quote]

In another version, Sokolnik took Dobrynya by the curls and threw him on the ground, and then sent to Ilya with a mocking message in which he advised him not to be replaced ... (not quite a decent word for the letter “G”), but to come to him “to recover”.

Realizing the scale of the threat, Ilya Muromets goes to battle with an alien warrior, fights him without a break for three days, and eventually suffers defeat: falls, but according to one version, an appeal to Mother-Raw Earth, according to another - a prayer, gives him new strength. However, having found his cross on Sokolnik’s chest, Ilya recognizes his son in him, and is very happy not only at this meeting, but also because he was not “rotten” (that is, not a pagan), but Orthodox, therefore, his campaign against Kiev can be considered a mistake and an absurd misunderstanding. Now, Illya believes, having found a father, the son will become his successor and the main defender of his new homeland - Russia. But Sokolnik, who until then considered himself an invincible fighter, is not at all happy about such a happy ending. The feeling of humiliation joins the former hatred, and on the same night he tries to kill sleeping Illya — however, the knife falls into a golden cross “weighing three poods”.

But there is another, even more sad version of this epic, according to which, Ilya, having learned that the son of all 12 years, sends him home, to his mother, offering to gain strength and come to him when 12 few more years pass. In this case, Ilya, alas, himself could provoke the subsequent tragic events. Because the young bogatyr, offended by such neglect, is indeed going home, but only to kill the “dissolute” mother - because she once associated with his father who had cruelly humiliated him. And then - again goes to Russia, and tries to kill sleeping Ilya.

Then the plot lines of the two epic versions converge: having decided that the son who consciously tried to destroy his father is not worthy of life, Illya kills him, after which he goes to church - for repentance.


Ilya Muromets and Sokolnik, a frame from the Soviet film 1956 g. In him the meeting of the father with the son ended with reconciliation


Perhaps, it should be said that there are similar plots about the confrontation of a father with an unrecognized son in the German epic (the Hildebrand saga) and in the Iranian legend about Rustam and Sukhrab.


Rustam and Suhrab


Ilya Muromets dies after a terrible battle with the dead, which is told in the epic of the Kama massacre. At first, the Kiev heroes, as usual, defeat the Tatar army. And, puffed up, declare:
[quote] Already, that to us that force is wrong?
We would have a ladder to heaven -
We would crush all the power of heaven. [/ Quote]

Or, in another version:
[Quote] There would be a ladder to the sky,
We would add all the power of heaven. [/ Quote]

In some texts, such words are uttered by the participants in the battle, heated with victory, in others - the younger warriors who were late for the battle, or stood by the wagon train in combat guard. Ilya tries to stop boasters, but late:
[Quote] Here Kudrevankova again rose:
Who was beaten and cut in two - it became two Tartars,
Good fellows gathered again,
They fought and fought for six days and six nights
They how much Tatars chop - no loss. [/ Quote]

Finally, “they were terrified of this silushka, they left on the edge of it,” but not far: they turned into stone with their horses at the neighboring mountain. One Ilya of Murom reached the city of Kiev, where he, too, turned to stone - near the city walls.


Illustration for the epic of the Kamsky massacre


Return to documents


Now we will return to more reliable sources and try to continue the search for traces of Ilya Muromets in historical documents.

Historians have at their disposal the famous testimony of Erich Lassot, ambassador of the Austrian emperor Rudolph II, who in 1594 described the tomb of Ilya Muromets in the aisle of the St. Sophia Cathedral in Kiev:
[Quote] “In the other chapel of the temple outside was the tomb of Ilya Morovlin, a famous hero or hero, about whom many fables are told. This tomb is now destroyed, but the same tomb of his comrade is still intact in the same chapel. ”[/ Quote]

So, the tomb of the alleged Ilya Muromets in the aisle of the St. Sophia Cathedral was already destroyed at that time, but local monks explained that the remains of the hero were transferred to the Antoniyevo cave of the Kiev-Pechersk Lavra. However, the stories about such a reburial should be recognized as legendary, because in the cave of Lavra there are mummified remains of an alleged hero. Consequently, this man was buried in this cave immediately after death. Otherwise, they would not be preserved. So, in the chapel of St. Sophia Cathedral and in Lavra various people were buried. Unless, of course, decide that the records Lesota can be trusted. After all, he still didn’t talk about St. Sophia Cathedral. For example, about some magic mirror:
[quote] “In this mirror, through magical art, one could see everything that was thought about, even if it happened at a distance of several hundred miles.” [/ quote]

But, if we compare these two versions, information about the burial of Ilya Muromets in the Lavra cave seems to be more reliable. First, the burial in the chapel of St. Sophia Cathedral was, nevertheless, for Illya “not according to rank.” Secondly, in some versions of epics about the death of Ilya of Murom, it is explicitly said about the “holy relics” of the hero:
[/ quote] "And the relics and the saints became"
"Even today, his powers are imperishable." [/ Quote]


The relics of Elijah Pechersky, the alleged Ilya of Murom, in the nearby caves of the Kiev-Pechersk Lavra


At the beginning of the XVII century the relics of Ilya of Murom were seen by the Old Believer John Lukyanov. He claimed that the fingers of the warrior’s right hand were folded in a double-cross sign, which, in his opinion, proved the pre-Donicon church rituals.

In 1638, the book of the monk of the Kiev-Pechersk Monastery Athanasius Kalnofyysky, who claimed that Ilya Muromets died in 1188, was published by the same author. once the enemies caught putting on their boots. Not finding another weapons, he with the help of boots and strayed, for which he received his nickname.

In 1643, Ilya Muromets among the 70 saints of the Kiev-Pechersk Lavra was canonized. In the Prologue and Orthodox calendars the memory of “St. Ilya of Murom in the 12th century of the former” is celebrated on December 19 (January 1 in a new style).

In 1988, a study of the alleged remains of Ilya Muromets was made by an interdepartmental commission of the Ministry of Health of the Ukrainian SSR. It was found that they belong to a man whose age at the time of death ranged from 40 to 55 years. His height is 177 cm (this is the largest skeleton of the caves), the estimated time of death is XI-XII century. Spinal defects, old fractures of the right clavicle, second and third ribs were revealed. In addition, this skeleton has no feet - it is a mutilation and could cause monastic vows. Death came as a result of an injury to the heart area, there were also traces of a wound in the area of ​​his left hand - it seems as if, at the time of death, he covered his chest with this hand. Recall the indication that Illya was not destined to die in battle: perhaps the old wounded warrior was killed in his cell in 1169, when Andrei Bogolyubsky, taking Kiev, gave it to his troops for a three-day looting.


The capture of Kiev 11b9 year. Miniature from the Radziwill Chronicles, 15th century


Or in 1203, in which Rurik Rostislavich ruined Kiev again, plundering St. Sophia Cathedral and the Tithe Church, and his allied Polovtsi "hacked down all the old monks, priests and nuns, and young Chernitsy, wives and daughters of Kiev drew them into their camp ".


The seizure and looting of Kiev, its monasteries and churches by the troops of Rurik Rostislavich Ovruchsky, Chernigov Olgovichi and Polovtsy. Miniature from the Radziwill Chronicles, 15th century


It is hardly possible to give an unequivocal answer to the question: does the investigated body belong to the beloved national hero or is someone else buried under his name? This is a matter of faith. But there is no doubt that the epics about Ilya Muromets entered the golden fund of world literature, the name of the beloved hero will forever remain in people's memory.
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  1. +9
    18 June 2019 18: 06
    Great article! Thanks to the author! hi
    1. -14
      18 June 2019 19: 55
      Quote: ANIMAL
      Great article! Thanks to the author! hi

      The article sucks, absolutely nothing, some speculation and speculation, and pieces of bylin

      I must say that modern scholars are skeptical of texts that tell about the birth of Ilya in the famous village of Karacharov, near Murom, where supposedly even the direct descendants of this hero live by the name of Gushchina. It has long been proven that this village was founded in the XVII century, and, therefore, its natives can have nothing to do with the events of the past centuries.


      To start with at least this ... it is immediately clear that the "author" is completely far from history and is familiar only with Wikipedia, which is actually confirmed by his further "sources"
      1. +6
        18 June 2019 23: 47
        Quote: purple
        Quote: ANIMAL
        Great article! Thanks to the author! hi

        The article sucks, absolutely nothing, some speculation and speculation, and pieces of bylin

        I must say that modern scholars are skeptical of texts that tell about the birth of Ilya in the famous village of Karacharov, near Murom, where supposedly even the direct descendants of this hero live by the name of Gushchina. It has long been proven that this village was founded in the XVII century, and, therefore, its natives can have nothing to do with the events of the past centuries.


        To start with at least this ... it is immediately clear that the "author" is completely far from history and is familiar only with Wikipedia, which is actually confirmed by his further "sources"

        Blimey! You are apparently an eyewitness of those events ??? laughing
        I look forward to - Amazingly True Story! Yes
        1. +3
          19 June 2019 07: 28
          Michal article highlight !!! Thank you so much and sincerely for your work !!!
          Regards, Vlad!
          1. +1
            19 June 2019 08: 08
            Damn ... Valery, forgive me, for God's sake, I again lost my mind ..... recourse
  2. -5
    18 June 2019 19: 10
    But, excuse me, it turns out that the real Ilya Muromets lived much later than the bygone Ilya Muromets, who served Prince Vladimir
    1. +6
      18 June 2019 19: 27
      Ilya Abramovich, don’t cause confusion, to you in the article they write this question of faith!
      And so it has long been known to us, from the Israeli comrades in VO, that Ilya Muromets is a Jew. bully
      I liked the article, thanks hi
      1. -3
        18 June 2019 21: 06
        I do not communicate with anti-Semites
        1. +6
          18 June 2019 21: 36
          Quote: itarnmag
          I do not communicate with anti-Semites

          I defend unstable
          from my adversaries,
          I’m already so weak
          that I’m trying them myself. (with)
        2. +1
          20 June 2019 21: 37
          Quote: itarnmag
          I do not communicate with anti-Semites

          We found the largest anti-Semite of Russia, the city of Tula and the VO site in particular .. laughing
          1. +1
            20 June 2019 21: 58
            Quote: Krasnodar
            We found the largest anti-Semite of Russia, the city of Tula and the VO site in particular ..

            laughing
            The joke was remembered:
            “Moysha, will you finally feed the cat ?!” Don’t you hear him yelling? Terrorized completely!
            - Jews do not conduct negotiations with terrorists and ignore their demands! wassat
            1. +2
              20 June 2019 23: 19
              - Leo Isaakovich, you are an experienced mechanic!
              - Well, so what?
              - So sew your ass Murzik, so as not to spoil our door!
              1. 0
                20 June 2019 23: 53
                - Rosa Moiseevna ... Take your cat away ... He again depicted a hungry faint at the fish department.
    2. -8
      18 June 2019 19: 27
      ... Alyosha Popovich and Dobrynya Nikitich were real people, and Ilya Muromets is a fairy-tale character who * arose * much later ...
      1. +5
        18 June 2019 21: 10
        1. Dobrynya was called the uncle of Prince Vladimir, and whether he was the prototype of the hero Dobrynia Nikitich is a moot point. 2. I have never read anywhere that Alyosha Popovich is a real person. Write down how such information
        1. +8
          19 June 2019 12: 14
          from the movie laughing laughing laughing
    3. +2
      18 June 2019 19: 34
      Perhaps the real Ilya of Muromets served Vladimir Monomakh, and not Vladimir Hierarch. In a previous article it was said that in epics their images often merged into one.
  3. +1
    18 June 2019 19: 45
    The project of the TV channel STB- In search of truth. "Double Glory to Ilya Muromets".
  4. -1
    18 June 2019 19: 55
    "The poem" Ortnit "states that Holmgard was the main city of Russia" - and why does the author think that this is Novgorod, and not the city of Holm ?!
    "In 1638, a book was published by the monk of the Kiev-Pechersk Monastery Athanasius of Kalofiyskiy, who claimed that Ilya Muromets died in 1188" -but how could he then fight the Tatars, who appeared much later ?!
    "For the first time in a historical document, the name of Ilya is mentioned in 1574. The headman of the Belarusian city of Orsha, Kmita Chernobyl, complaining about the hardships of the border service and inattention to his needs, wrote to the authorities:" The hour will come, there will be a need for Ilya Muravlenin. " -
    And why doesn’t it occur to the author to bind the name of the hero and the famous grass-ant, the Muravsky gent (who, in my opinion, Ilya lived with, and for whom the Tatars raided us). “Yes, whether that one has a birch near a slapstick, or that one has a river near Smorodina, that Nightingale the robber, Odikhmantiev’s son sits at that cross near Levanidov.” Speaking of the Nightingale the Robber, Shlyakh passes through the Kursk region (famous for the Kursk nightingales), there is also the Smorodina river in the Kursk region.
  5. +5
    18 June 2019 19: 55
    I happened to see the relics of Elijah (?) In a cave in the Lavra. Then it was still possible to freely travel to Kiev. I was struck by the simplicity of the tomb of the epic hero and, frankly, free access. There were no people. The caves are empty. Do what you want.
    The appearance of the relics was not at all heroic. But the people, they say, used to be smaller in body (but not in spirit). I hope the monks retain their relics, because the Kiev-Pechora Lavra has long been an eyesore to Bandera’s of all stripes.
    1. -5
      18 June 2019 20: 11
      Quote: Moskovit
      I happened to see the relics of Elijah (?) In a cave in the Lavra. Then it was still possible to freely travel to Kiev. I was struck by the simplicity of the tomb of the epic hero and, frankly, free access. There were no people. The caves are empty. Do what you want.
      The appearance of the relics was not at all heroic. But the people, they say, used to be smaller in body (but not in spirit). I hope the monks retain their relics, because the Kiev-Pechora Lavra has long been an eyesore to Bandera’s of all stripes.

      In Murom, there are relics of Ilya Muromets, so do not worry, everything will remain
    2. +1
      18 June 2019 21: 51
      Quote: Moskovit
      But the people, they say, used to be smaller in body (but not in spirit).

      In 1966, travel to relatives weight day were in Moscow.
      Well, according to the program, first of all, to Red Square. The mausoleum was closed. We went on an excursion to St. Basil's Cathedral.
      It seems on the ground floor were knight armor. The guide said that they decided to try them on a modern man of average build. Trying on several, not one did not fit. Little were
      1. 0
        23 June 2019 01: 05
        Quote: Lipchanin
        It seems on the ground floor were knight armor. The guide said that they decided to try them on a modern man of average build. Trying on several, not one did not fit. Little were

        If it is "smooth" or "maximillian" armor, then it was armor for young men. Armor was generally made for every age, even for the same person of his size (this is a complete analogy with a modern suit, which is sewn according to anthropometry). Cheap trash - yes, consumer goods for the market. However, even they were different. It's just that what we have left is far from the best examples. The anthropometry of the armory halls of Dresden and Austria gives quite modern dimensions and even more.
  6. +2
    18 June 2019 20: 03
    Thank. I read with great interest hi
  7. 0
    18 June 2019 20: 54
    The reliability of the Scandinavian sagas dedicated to events earlier than the 9th century is very low, and the further from the time of compilation of written lists of oral sagas ("The Earth Circle", "Acts of the Danes"), the lower and lower.

    For several hundred years in the minds of sag tellers, attila mixed with Goths, Valdemar and Vladimir, etc., in the written texts. The compilers of sag compilations themselves very often, instead of literally recording the oldest of them, did not result in a primary poetic text, but merely its prosaic presentation, as compositors set themselves not a literary, but a historical goal.

    At the same time, the linkers gave their subjective interpretations in the presentation of the content of the poetic text, based on post-knowledge - as they understood it. Plus pursuit of political goals set before the linkers by their customers and sponsors.

    Therefore, from a historical point of view, sagas dating from 8 and later centuries have value, when the authors themselves began to record them, first in runes and then in Latin letters. In addition, the late sagas are preserved in large numbers, and therefore can be cross-verified among themselves, as well as with German, Byzantine, Arabic and Russian written sources.
    1. 0
      19 June 2019 00: 25
      in those days, pedigrees were so faked for political purposes that one wonders — that there is a correspondence between Ivan the Terrible and Swedish kings))) such as the Swedes, subjects of his ancestor - Yaroslav the Wise, and their line comes not from Swedish Germans, but from Bavarian ones))) link: https://alex-oleyni.livejournal.com/9275.html (legs of the Norman theory))))
      You want to laugh, read the epic about Ilya of Muromets and Batu tsar (Batyvich) - Boris Godunov deduced his pedigree from Murza Chet (Genghisides) like he was of royal blood (like Simeon Bekbulatovich), although like Zoburov Godunov (younger branch) from Dmitry Zerno) )))
      1. +1
        19 June 2019 08: 02
        Gee ... so Menshikov deduced himself from the Prussians! However, like the Romanovs !!!
        1. 0
          19 June 2019 09: 15
          A much more interesting figure of the times of Peter the Great is AI Ushakov (secret chancellery under five monarchs), the Ushakovs are from the Rededi of the Kasozha prince who died in a duel with Mstislav Vladimirovich (Tmutarakansky-Chernihiv, who heaped the Wise with his mercenaries Swedes) - then, according to the conditions, Reded , but none of the mythical Prussians and Lithuanians (the bumpkin) who lived in a tribal way with backward technologies ... (here in the comments I pointed out that Rurikovich of Baltic origin haplogroup N1c (L550) is a big its technologically developed part engaged in trade along riverbeds (river-sea) that does not lead a secluded life - boaters / rookers most likely associated with the Galinds (Baltic rum) ...
          Why attacks on Klyosov (DNA genealogy) in our country, because everyone is under the influence of the state and academicians from history have to sign their delusions - the "fake" scientific degrees (that's why we are not doing research on the DNA of bone remains, unlike others countries) - like in vain money from the state sucked
          1. +3
            19 June 2019 11: 32
            Beautifully about these genealogies is written in the novel "Peter the First." - Prince Lykov: "Our family is from the Prince Lychka. It is said in the annals - Prince Lychko came out of the Ugorsk land in the thirteenth century and with him three thousand spearmen. - Prince Buinosov:" You The Lykovs, under Ivan the Terrible, entered themselves into the genealogy. Damn him, Prince Lychko, saw how he came out of the Ugric land. "
            1. -4
              19 June 2019 14: 42
              it's all the fantasy of the red count - the Poles are funnier with their Piasts, as in the Russian folk about turnip, and their national hero Kosciuszko is generally a crest - and hurry up from the Catholics)))
              But the Hungarians (Ugric land) really did the Bat Nestorian genocide (do not confuse it with Bastia - Julian the apostate), they only had the Ugrian language from their mother - the horde became an expansion of Catholics into Christian lands - Constantinople fell under the crusaders and Batu was perceived instead of the Byzantine the emperor, who was promoting Yaroslav Vsevolodovich and his offspring with Alexander Nevsky in the Russian feud on the Grand Duke’s table - however, politics with the religion of that time ...
            2. -3
              20 June 2019 20: 56
              Quote: itarnmag
              Prince of Buinosov

              The prince handed the petition to the tsar on the behavior of Alexei Brovkin so awkwardly (not in the mood for which he paid 10 rubles to the poor) that he touched Prince Buinosov (a kind from his own) - and it started someone who was older ..
              The Buinosovs sat above the Lykovs for centuries. We consider our kind from the capital Chernigov princes by name. And you, the Lykovs, under Ivan the Terrible, you yourself entered into the genealogy ... Damn him, Prince Lychko, saw how he left the Ugric land ...
              Prince Martyn's eyes began to rotate, bags jumped under his eyes, his face with a big upper lip trembled, as if crying.
              - Buinosovs? Is it not in Tushin, in the camp, that the Tushino thief granted you estates?
              Both princes rose from the shop, began to look at each other from head to foot. And to be barking and great noise - do not intervene Endogurov and Svinin. Notified, reassured. Wiping their foreheads and necks with scarves, the princes sat in different shops.

              the antiquity of the genus and the length of the beard, then it was considered the greatest honor! Therefore, these are the scenes.
              But under Peter--nobility by deeds to measure.
          2. +1
            23 June 2019 01: 07
            Quote: Rostislav Bely
            Why attacks on Klyosov (DNA genealogy) in our country, because everyone is under the influence of the state and academicians from history have to sign their delusions - the "fake" scientific degrees (that's why we are not doing research on the DNA of bone remains, unlike others countries) - like in vain money from the state sucked

            I totally agree.
            1. -1
              27 June 2019 22: 07
              In Soviet times, AA Klyosov received State and Leningrad Komsomol prizes in biochemistry (professor at Harvard and Moscow State Universities, professor of the USSR Academy of Sciences, the textbook "Practical Course of Chemical and Enzymatic KINETICS" - based on her doctoral dissertation)
  8. +4
    18 June 2019 22: 00
    With all due respect to the hero, to epics and history,
    but jokes about Ilya Muromets in my childhood
    were very cool. I can not resist:
    "Ilya Muromets wakes up, looks out the window:
    the village is destroyed, the bell tower rickety, the well collapsed,
    the fences fell ... The hero exclaimed: "but who are these enemies who are here?
    have you been? I will drive them into the ground with one blow! I'll catch up with them all and grind them into powder! "
    The old woman fearfully leans out like this: "Ilyusha, how dear you are when
    sober..."
    ----
    The ancient Jews had, as is well known, the hero Samson, who
    fought with a donkey jaw (!), went to brothels to Greek getters
    (there he was tied, shaving his hair), he drank heavily. In general, the Jews
    they drove him away. But then he took revenge on the Greek Philistines for shaving
    and brought down the temple on him (and himself). He died loudly ...


    1. +5
      18 June 2019 22: 49
      Hi Aleksey. hi

      Ilya gathered in the morning on the road to the Tsar’s service, got sober, sat on Burushka and drove off. The road just went through the dense and terrible Murom forest. Ilya rode and rode and rode out into the clearing, and in the clearing there was an oak, and the Nightingale the robber was sitting on the oak and whistling something like the 2nd concert for piano and orchestra P.I. Tchaikovsky.
      Ilyusha drove closer and asked:
      - Are you sitting?
      - I'm sitting. - Answers Nightingale.
      - Whistling? - Ilya asks.
      - Fistula. - The robber in response.
      - Well, to hell with you. - Ilya said, cracked Nightingale on the head with a club and went further on his heroic affairs.
      The nightingale crashed to the ground, came to himself and, rubbing a lump on the head, summed up the meeting:
      - Here they get drunk and drive: "You are not sitting there ... or you are whistling ..." smile
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +2
        20 June 2019 00: 24
        Ilya pulls up to the fork in the road. There is a stone. Caption: you’ll go to the left, you will lose the horse, you will go to the right — you will become a person of non-traditional sexual orientation.
        A horse stands a dough, Ilya thought, and the orientation of the thing is volatile and turned right. He drives up to the river, sees - the Serpent Gorynych about the Three Heads eagerly drinks water. He got off his horse, crept quietly and Bzhik-Whack - chopped off him two Bosko. And the third head turns to him and says - and who are you, Ilyusha, after that?
        1. 0
          20 June 2019 13: 45
          Shalom!
          Quote: Krasnodar
          sees - the Serpent Gorynych about Three Heads eagerly drinks water.

          Be sure to add that the snake from the hangover, it is very! an important point. laughing

          Ilya is driving along the road. A stone at the fork: "If you go to the left, you will fold your head. If you go to the right, you will lose your horse. If you go straight, you will be an eccentric."
          Ilya thought and went straight. Afternoon. Ilya drove in for the night to Baba Yaga. She fed him, watered him and asked:
          - Where will you sleep, Ilyushenka?
          - And where is the place?
          “Either with me, or with my daughter, or in the hayloft.” Ilya looked at Baba Yaga, figured out what her daughter was, and wandered into the barn. In the morning he goes out to the yard, sees - the girl in the sun is sunbathing, of indescribable beauty.
          - Who will you be, beauty girl?
          “I am the daughter of Baba Yaga, and who are you?”
          - And I ... I'm an eccentric! Oh miracle-a-ah-ak!
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. +1
            20 June 2019 17: 56
            laughing
            Shalom! Good! good
  9. -9
    18 June 2019 22: 11
    Arctic fox is also an animal, but Borbuysk is only for beavers (you need to look for Arctic fox - a joke))))
    The reference to the head of the Belarusian city of Orsha Kmit Chernobyl (in 1574) in this context is the Latin name, from the category of the sixteenth republic of the USSR Pomerania with the coat of arms in the form of the Two-headed Khokhlov ...
    Everything is much simpler in epics, the images are usually collective from a historical point of view, the same Vladimir Krasnoe Solnyshko is both Vladimir Svyatoslavovich and Monomakh ... Muromets is Muroma (tribe), Nightingale the Robber is Mordva, before Christianity in Moksha and Erzi names of birds were widespread - so to speak among peasant warriors))) "m" in hydronyms and the names are associated with the land and tribes ie with the migration of the Ugrophin tribes from the northeast (they passed through the southern trading station Kiev - an insignificant trade route - which came under the influence of Rus - the Balto-Slavic association of the times of the prophetic Oleg), so to speak, the resettlement of peoples due to climate change.
    It has long been irrelevant to refer to Norman theory - they broke off teeth about DNA genealogy (thanks to Klesov, a world-renowned biochemist) ... All these mercenaries (Scandinavians) from the time of Yaroslav the Wise together with him received a cradle under Listvyat, notably the heels sparkled - only Mstislav Vladimirovich felt sorry for his sophisticated relative and divided Russia into two banks along the Dnieper ...
    1. +4
      18 June 2019 22: 19
      "To refer to the Norman theory has long been irrelevant -
      broken teeth about DNA genealogy
      (thanks to Klyosov - a world renowned biochemist) "////
      -----
      Klesov did not refute or confirm Norman theory.
      The fact that the Russians, Poles, Pashtuns, Kyrgyz and several other respected peoples
      have the same dna label, coming from a common primitive ancestor, not
      changes the history of the 8-10th century.
      1. -4
        18 June 2019 23: 14
        The descendants of the Rurikovichs have haplogroup N1c (l550), with the exception of adultery and impostors - these are the Balts, an offshoot of a common ancestor with the Finno-Ugrians. The name Oleg (Olzi in the annals, Volga in epics) does not come from the Scandinavian Helga, but is associated with the hydronym Volga (Ilga (Balt.) - a long way) - the main trade route, the source of silver (the main exchange equivalent) from the Caliphate later as an offshoot "amber path" (northern) - from here in Russian Ladoga, vagrant, road, moisture (waterway). as with the southern branch of the Ugrofin migration we have "M", then the northern branch with "G" - Galinda, goliad (tribes of conventional boatmen / boatmen) - here is the city (Novgorod) Gomun (Gomel) ... the question is where the name Rus comes from (the Russian custom to meet with bread and salt) - an option to the existing ones - a trade associated with the trade of salt - in Lithuanian salt - Druska, Staraya Russa - salt industry (evaporation from mineral sources), side metallurgy (charcoal), slash-and-burn agriculture with a yield higher than in black soil in Kiev, which was taken by Russian cities with chudyu (epic Kolyvanovichi - Kalevala), and about the mother the Greeks confused about the metropolis - this is from the payer of tribute (withdrawal) the chronicles were written after Yaroslav the Wise (the reliability of the events 300/200 years ago is debatable) and if Svyatoslav was luckier, then the capital (table) would have been in Pereyaslavets Bolgarsky on the Danube, his own table under Andrei Bogolyubsky was moved to Vladimir ...
  10. 0
    18 June 2019 23: 37
    Quote: itarnmag
    I do not communicate with anti-Semites

    Did you mean with anti-Semites: anti-Semites (opponents of the Arabs) are not observed in the military establishment laughing
  11. 0
    19 June 2019 00: 02
    Sometimes Ilya is called not Muromets, but Muravets, Morovlin and Muravlyanin. This served as the basis for the assumption that the birthplace of the hero may be the city of Morov in the Chernihiv region or Moravia

    Actually, the self-name of the inhabitants of Murom is just the Muromites, but it sounds like the Muramians, in a fluent speech turning into Murova. Normal reduction / stunning sounds.
    So it’s unnecessary to drag Moravia here.
    But as a plot for RenTV would do.
    1. +1
      19 June 2019 00: 50
      As an amateur numismatist, I’ll tell you that Ilya of Muromets is associated with the 11-12 centuries. - the mess was there at that time (a very large number of treasures with dirhams were hidden by traders) - by the dating of the treasures one can determine cataclysms (wars, epidemics, etc.), unlike burial grounds ...
      For example, on the territory of modern Belarus there are many hoards with Roman coins of the 1st-4th centuries. but they are of little value since the coins are billon ("inflation" - they minted coins with a low silver content)
  12. 0
    19 June 2019 00: 05
    Quote: voyaka uh
    Philistines

    The Egyptians called the Philistines "peleset" - Pelasgi (pre-Ahean population of Attica).

    In South Semitic languages, instead of the sound "p", "f" is used - "Falystyn".
  13. +5
    19 June 2019 00: 35
    Valery, thank you. I like your approach to this kind of topics and the very choice of topics.
    As for Ilya, for me personally, the collectiveness of his image does not cause doubts, otherwise it simply cannot be, I, in any case, cannot imagine as a hero whose image has been formed for hundreds of years, would not absorb many facts hundreds of years have happened.
  14. +1
    19 June 2019 12: 43
    N-yes! I have not read such interesting and clever materials for a long time ...
  15. +1
    19 June 2019 12: 47
    Quote: Rostislav Bely
    (therefore, we are not working on the DNA of bone remains, unlike other countries)

    Who deceived you so much?
    1. 0
      19 June 2019 15: 04
      Nobody deceived - only a few burial grounds (three or a little more) related to the time of the Slavs (a couple of decrypted fossil DNA samples - Prussia and Estia in the Baltic states and a medieval sample in radonezh - all of them are carriers of R1a (the main one among ethnic Russians) ...
      link Anatoly Klyosov DNA genealogy of the Slavs origin and history. Peter Publishing House 2019 pg. 10-11
      a link to a video in the politcafe - it may be better for you: https://youtu.be/oZFVI9akksA
  16. +1
    19 June 2019 12: 49
    Quote: Lipchanin
    The guide said that they decided to try them on a modern man of average build.

    Go to England, to Leeds, the Royal Arsenal. There are any growth ...
  17. 0
    20 June 2019 14: 47
    whom enemies once found wearing boots. Not finding another weapon, he with the help of boots and fought back, for which he received his nickname.
    so where did it go from pissing off slippers?

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