Combat aircraft. About aircraft engines, their own and not very

131
Quite rightly speaking of aviationtalk about aircraft engines. Those same "fiery engines" on which, in fact, our planes flew during the Second World War.





In general, in the 30-40-e years, our industry, of course, just made a huge leap. From direct photocopying, which, in general, is not shameful, but is an indicator of the level of development of the design school in the country, to the steady release of its technology in large quantities and in series.

And if we didn’t have tank building before the revolution, as such, it was bad and poor with aviation. It's bad - because the production of aircraft engines in Russia was not adjusted (let's not take the Gnome-Ron screwdriver assembly into statistics at all, it is not serious), and the most advanced designers like Sikorsky and Lebedev preferred not to get involved with the Bolsheviks.

Yes, Polikarpov, Gakkel, Grigorovich, Tupolev remained, the young ones were growing up, but ... There were no engines as before.

We refer to the memoirs of Alexander Yakovlev. In “The Purpose of Life” he repeatedly quoted his applications for foreign-made engines. And not because the young designer did not like something there, but simply because he didn’t have his own. The fact is, of course, not very comforting.

But, alas, it is hard to deny that in fact ALL Soviet aircraft engines were copies of imported designs.

The purpose of this article is absolutely not put some kind of humiliation of our industry or the labor of Soviet designers, rather, on the contrary. This is a demonstration in numbers and facts of how it came from nothing.

Technical progress is generally difficult. No need to go far for examples, not so long ago, in 1966, in the USSR a car factory was built, which produced outdated Italian cars. And in the 2016 year, however, already in the status of a subsidiary of the Renault Group, cars with disc rear brakes and similar to cars started to go off the assembly line.

Yes, we had previously decided to parade the best, that is, domestic, and to minimize the merits of foreign manufacturers in our technical development. Today, of course, easier.

Therefore, today I am completely normal and without reproaches of non-patriotism, I can say that the air shield and sword of the Land of the Soviets was forged around the world.

Let's start? By screws!



So, how to turn the screws of the Soviet aircraft. It is clear that the engines. And what?

1. Bristol Jupiter. Great Britain.


Nine-cylinder single-row with star-shaped cylinders. Serially produced from 1918 to 1930 years.

Combat aircraft. About aircraft engines, their own and not very


Of course, the British just did not present us a motor. On the other hand, they opened production in France under the “Gnome-Ron” brand, and the French acquired the license from the Soviet Union quite normally. So "Jupiter" received an official residence permit in the USSR and was produced until 1935, having won the whole Great Patriotic War. Well, the first half for sure.

M-22 (aka "Jupiter") was installed on the I-16 and I-15.

2. Wright R-1820 Cyclone. USA.


Nine-cylinder, single-row, star-shaped, air-cooled. Produced from 1931 to 1954 years.



Licensed produced in Spain and the Soviet Union under the brand M-25.

M-25 installed on I-15, I-15bis, I-153, I-16, COR-1 airplanes.

A further modification of the M-25 was the M-62 / ASH-62, which, in turn, came in handy when creating two-row star-shaped engines (ASH-82, for example).



M-62 installed on I-153, I-16 (18 and 27 series, in the basic version without gear), Li-2 and still under the brand name ASH-62IR used on the surviving An-2.

M-82 / ASH-82. Here are some of the difficulties. In principle, who says that this is the development of our engineers will be right. Who says that the engine from the same opera as its predecessors is also right.



The M-82 was double row, but the two rows of cylinders were nothing more than M-62, whose number of cylinders was reduced from 9 to 7. The piston stroke was also reduced, which resulted in a decrease in the diameter of the motor. Accordingly, the decrease in drag. Plus M-82 became the first injection engine of Soviet construction.

In total, more than 70 000 engines of this family were produced.

M-82 installed on:
- bombardment of TU-2, Su-2, Pe-8;
- fighters La-5, La-5FN, La-7, La-9, La-11;
- passenger IL-12, IL-14;
- Mi-4 helicopter.

There was a family of Shvetsov engines, which were “uncut” twin “Cyclones”, that is, 18-cylinder M-71, M-72 and M-73.


M-73 / ASH-73 with TK-1 turbocharger


M-73 installed on the Tu-4 and Be-6, and, on a flying boat, proved to be just fine, since the Be-6 did not require the installation of a high-altitude compressor.

3. Hispano-Suiza 12Y. France.


12-cylinder V-engine liquid cooling.



I have already talked about this motor in the materials about the “Hispano-Suiza” and “Devuatin D-520”. It was also produced under license and refined here, and the HS 12Y became the ancestor of its equally well-known family of water-cooled engines V. Klimov.

M-100. Installed on the SB bombers. Next was a chain of upgrades through M-103 to M-105.


M-100


M-105. It was a really heavily modified M-103. The motor had a smaller working volume, an increased compression ratio, a two-speed centrifugal supercharger, two intake (and later two exhaust) valves per cylinder.



In total, more than 90 000 M-105 motors of all modifications were released.

M-105 / VK-105 installed on:
- LaGG-3, Yak-1, Yak-7, Yak-9, Yak-3, Pe-3 fighters;
- Yak-4, Ep-2, Pe-2, Ap-2 bombers.

The forced version of the M-105 engine, which became the M-107, was also released, albeit not by such a huge series, but only a little more than 7 000 pieces, however, it has every right to be on the list.


VK-107


M-107 / VK-107 installed on the Yak-9U and Pe-2.

4. Gnome-Rhône Mistral Major. France.


Another star 14-cylinder engine. The licensed copy produced in the USSR was called M-85 and its further modification was M-87. The main designers of the motor were AS Nazarov (M-86) and S. K. Tumansky (M-87).



Motor was frankly weak, but very reliable. In general, it was licensed by everyone who wanted: Italy, Japan, Great Britain, Romania, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary. Even the Germans put the “Major” on their Hs-129 attack aircraft.

In our country, the M-85 - M-87 engines were installed on the DB-3 and Il-4 bombers.

5. BMW VI. Germany.


Another line of engines. The German source, a V-shaped 12-cylinder engine with water cooling, was modified by Alexander Mikulin and went into the series as M-17. We must pay tribute to the Germans, who kindly granted us the right to produce an engine, engines in Bavaria were always able to build.



With this engine flew Non-111 and Do-17, it was released worldwide (Romania, Japan, etc.)

M-17 installed on TB-1, TB-3, P-5, MBR-2.



But the most interesting was ahead, in modifications.

AM-34 we just skip because it was put on all the same models, and flew to America on RD airplanes.

AM-35. Mounted on the MiG-1, MiG-3 and Pe-8. Was released in a series of almost 5 thousands of units.


Am-xnumx


AM-38. Mounted on the IL-2. In total, more than 40 thousands of engines were manufactured.



Still on many armory and aviation sites, people break lances, how should Mikulin's motors be viewed as independent works or as a copy of a German engine.

The truth, as always, somewhere in the middle will be. If, in fact, the Germans created a decent engine, and Mikulin was a strong designer who made a monster out of a “German” that dragged an Il-2 armored box into one screw.

So controversially here. But I personally do not feel anything unpleasant. Rather, it should be unpleasant for BMW engineers and designers.

Now surely some already wound up, I feel. Author, and what, our engines did not exist? Were

For example, here.



M-11, a miracle motor that literally brought several generations of Soviet pilots into the sky without exaggeration, and during the war they carried everything that was necessary: ​​the wounded, mail, bombs.

The engine was developed by the design bureau of aircraft factory No. 4 as part of the competition for the best motor design for training aircraft with a rated power of 100 l. with., in 1923 year. The head of the design bureau at that time was A. D. Shvetsov. Shvetsov himself, although he was rewarded, never said that he was the author of the design.

The engine did not have outstanding performance, however, it was reliable, like a Mosin rifle, technologically advanced in production, like a bolt, not picky about used fuels and oils.

Someone will say that to put it mildly, it is difficult to compare, but that is what it is. Small and reliable on the one hand and borrowed on the other. Sorry, but there was such a time. No one, unfortunately, gave us either designers or engineers. About the plants even keep quiet.

The fact that, until recently, in our country we could not even think about such a problem as aircraft engines was an achievement. I hope no one will argue with that?
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  1. 0
    12 June 2019 05: 56
    Interesting and informative, I see all this in the first. The engine with 2 struck, the resource is most likely extremely small, the timing is not lubricated.
    1. +10
      12 June 2019 09: 08
      Interesting and informative, all this

      Only the author did not mention a word about material science developed in the USSR.
      Without which, no copying would be fundamentally impossible at all.
      And it is the development of materials science that determines the speed of copying products and, in general, the level of technology in the country. This is actually the very foundation of industry and money needs to be invested into it simply immeasurably - everything will come back handsomely.
      I remind you that they tried unsuccessfully to copy Damascus steel for hundreds of years .....)))
      1. 0
        1 August 2019 00: 28
        So why copy? Bought the same license. And they transferred technology, even regularly helping to adapt it to the capabilities of production
    2. +7
      12 June 2019 12: 47
      Why is not smeared? Timing (a ring with cams driven from the shaft) of a radial engine inside the crankcase, oil in the crankcase. Outside, only valve pushers.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. +3
      12 June 2019 16: 09
      Quote: Free Wind
      Interesting and informative, I see all this in the first. The engine with 2 struck, the resource is most likely extremely small, the timing is not lubricated.


      The level of the first and second grades of elementary school. 123456789 repetition.
    5. +4
      12 June 2019 16: 58
      A normal resource, otherwise, from the 20's and before the start of the 60's, it would not have been produced in different versions.
    6. +2
      12 June 2019 21: 36
      Quote: Free Wind
      Timing is not lubricated


      And the water flows through the ribs.
  2. +13
    12 June 2019 06: 08
    Technical progress is generally difficult. No need to go far for examples, not so long ago, in 1966, in the USSR a car factory was built, which produced outdated Italian cars. And in the 2016 year, however, already in the status of a subsidiary of the Renault Group, cars with disc rear brakes and similar to cars started to go off the assembly line.
    Roman, write better about aviation. About cars VERY much incompetence comes out ... and now "products similar to cars" are coming out of the VAZ conveyor.
    1. +15
      12 June 2019 06: 41
      Roman, write better about aviation ...

      Really! If the "Car of 1967 in Europe" was already outdated in 1966, then something is not right here ...
      1. +19
        12 June 2019 12: 38
        in 1966, a car factory was built in the USSR that produced obsolete Italian cars
        The penny twin Fiat 124 was produced from 1966 to 1974. And the other twin SEAT 124 was produced in Europe from 1968 to 1980. And these were not obsolete cars.
        This is SEAT 124. It was produced in Barcelona in Spain.

        the most advanced designers like Sikorsky and Lebedev preferred don't mess with the Bolsheviks
        Or maybe they just left their homeland because of the Civil War and devastation? Why is it necessary to focus on the negative role of the Bolsheviks, there were more participants there. Not everyone left Russia for political views, some simply fled from adversity, many later returned. Well, these remained.
        1. 0
          20 June 2019 15: 27
          With regard to Sikorsky, there is great suspicion about Tupolev’s account, who, being in favor of the new government, affectionately recommended Sikorsky to fall down so as not to create competition. This is quite in the spirit of Tupolev, remembering the history of the work of Design Bureau Tsybin on his bomber and the work of Sukhoi on Sotka, about the defeat of Design Bureau Myasishchev, in general, I am silent.
          1. 0
            26 September 2019 21: 51
            Nonsense of yellow books 90s laughing
            1. 0
              9 November 2019 11: 52
              Young man, did someone call you in our conversation with Stas157? Leave such sweeping comments for teens in your circle.
        2. 0
          1 August 2019 00: 29
          Well .... Sikorsky openly said that he was a Russian monarchist and nationalist and with the Bolsheviks internationalists he was not at all on his way
        3. 0
          2 September 2019 15: 52
          Quote: Stas157
          The penny twin Fiat 124 was produced from 1966 to 1974.


          Tofaş, Turkey.
          The plant was founded under the license of Fiat in 1968, and in 1970 released the first Tofaş Murat 124 (aka VAZ-2101, as you might guess)
    2. +6
      12 June 2019 08: 44
      "car-like products"

      In the food industry, the separation of cheese / cheese product or sausage / sausage product was introduced. Probably in the automotive industry also need to be divided: car / automotive product!
    3. +6
      12 June 2019 16: 50
      Incidentally, the prototype "penny" FIAT-124 car of the year in 1967. And the Author: "... an outdated model." Well, no words, what competence!
    4. +1
      13 June 2019 11: 31
      Quote: polar fox
      and now "products similar to cars" are coming out of the VAZ conveyor

      Because the concern has largely abandoned domestic manufacturers of spare parts with which it was impossible to agree on progress and quality. They discredited AvtoVAZ to a greater extent than the organization of work on assembly lines.
  3. +2
    12 June 2019 06: 10
    I read a book about Mikulin. There is not a word that the basis of its BMW engines is all by itself, all by itself.
    1. +3
      12 June 2019 07: 03
      I read a book about Mikulin. There is not a word that the basis of its BMW engines is all by itself, all by itself.

      Colleagues, in 1948 the so-called "struggle against cosmopolitanism" began in the USSR. It was initially directed against the Jews, but very quickly turned into a struggle with common sense in general. In the course of this campaign, all scientific and technical terms in the country were replaced by Russian-speaking counterparts, and all scientific discoveries and technical achievements were looked for by domestic authors. It was then that an ironic expression arose: "Russia is the birthplace of elephants!", which very accurately reflects the processes taking place then in Soviet science and technology.
      With the death of Stalin, this company quickly faded away, but the tradition of inflating domestic merits was preserved.
      So it is surprising that Russian biographers in 1950 ... 80. preferred to hide the true "creators of our victories", not worth it! In one famous film, for example, its protagonist tells Stalin that copying V-2 is not worth it, since it is "yesterday". But the real Korolev to start and copied it ...
      But this does not mean that we have nothing of our own and we have nothing to be proud of.
      1. +12
        12 June 2019 07: 35
        The real Korolev did not copy Fau on his own, but as directed by the government. At the same time, the problems of materials science were also solved simultaneously. Since it was determined that copying should be done with the replacement of domestic materials, and in their absence, the development of similar ones.
        1. +1
          12 June 2019 07: 47
          So what if "not in itself"?
          I’m not talking about this, but about filing in the then media: they showed that he was against it, and then - immediately R-7 ...
          Of course, the experts knew how much, but the "common people" came to the conclusion that we have our own missiles!
          In addition, even on the serial R-5 there was an engine from the R-1 (V-2), although it has already been thoroughly modernized.
        2. 0
          12 June 2019 20: 34
          All liquid-propellant rockets are heirs to Werner von Braun rockets. The creators of rockets in the USSR and the USA used his ideas, and the USA he created them.
      2. +5
        12 June 2019 08: 58
        In one famous film, for example, its protagonist tells Stalin that copying V-2 is not worth it, since it is "yesterday". But the real Korolev first copied it ...

        As Korolev himself said, in order to copy Fau 2, he would need to copy 1500 metal alloys from which Fau 2 was created, and only that, he said, would take about 20 years, then the actual copying itself would take another 5-10 years.
        From Fau2 he took only the principle of action - all metals and alloys were developed and applied again and his own.
        So in fact Korolev did everything himself.
        1. Fat
          +6
          12 June 2019 12: 27
          Quote: lucul
          So in fact Korolev did everything himself.

          In October 1946, a group of approximately 175 German scientists and technicians from Bleicherode, Gem and Arado were deported from Germany to Kaliningrad (Podlipki), USSR. Soon after arriving in Kaliningrad (Podlipki) at the end of 1946, about 60 Germans belonging to the Bleicherode group were transferred to Gorodoml Island near Ostashkov (57 ° 08 "N 35 ° 05" E). During January, March and May 1948, the remaining members of the group were sent to the same location. They took with them a small combustion chamber test bench from the airfield and the equipment of the measuring laboratory. Here, on the island, they worked on the draft design of the improved A-4 (V-2; R-10) missile and the design of the long-range missile (3000 km), R-14.

          Grettrup with a whole team of engineers, technicians and even workers ...
          After a successful launch at the Kapustin Yar training ground. 1947 From left to right: Karl Stahl, Johannes Hoch, Helmut Grettrup, Fritz Weibach, Hans Walter [Photo from the archives of Olaf Przybylski, on display at the Pennemünde Museum
          1. +18
            12 June 2019 13: 06
            Grettrup with a whole team of engineers, technicians and even workers ..

            Well, how many times can you repeat - the most difficult thing in a rocket engine is its materials. And they, German rocket engineers could not do them. They take finished grades of steel and alloys, but these materials were in Germany and remained there. The USSR created all the materials anew. It is materials science (metal science) that allows you to create new discoveries.
            It seems that there are only humanities in the comments ... I would understand more if a woman wrote this, but to a man ......
            1. Fat
              +1
              12 June 2019 13: 40
              Quote: lucul
              It seems that there are only humanities in the comments ...

              Vitaliy, the engineer determines the metal characteristics required in the product, for example, If there is no material with the required characteristics in the assortment, the technical task is issued. And only then, specially trained materials scientists are engaged in discoveries, among which, by the way, in laboratories, are a lot of women.
              1. -2
                12 June 2019 14: 39
                And only then, specially trained materials scientists are engaged in discoveries, among which, by the way, in laboratories, are a lot of women.

                Voooot - this then determines the level of technology. If they can do it, you can’t even dream of any copying.
                It was not for nothing that I gave an example with Damascus steel - try copying the blade. No outwardly, of course it is possible - but in terms of quality they have become .....)))
                1. Fat
                  -1
                  12 June 2019 16: 34
                  Quote: lucul
                  It was not for nothing that I gave an example with Damascus steel - try copying the blade. No outwardly, of course it is possible - but in terms of quality they have become .....)))

                  Damascus, Toledo, Swedish low-carbon (iron) steel close to the original is extremely difficult to reproduce, it depends a lot on ores. Damask steel is easier ... and the quality will not suffer.
                2. +2
                  13 June 2019 23: 25
                  Quote: lucul
                  It was not for nothing that I gave an example with Damascus steel - try copying the blade. No outwardly, of course it is possible - but in terms of quality they have become .....

                  Damascus steel is a composite made by forge welding and subsequent forging. Yu. Gurevich, "Riddles of Damask Pattern" There are three varieties of this method, which are distinguished by the patterns on the blade: striped damascus, welded damascus and floral damascus. Floral is also called "pink Damascus".
                  Striped damascus was made by simple welding of steel strips of different hardnesses superimposed on each other, with strips with a high carbon content alternating alternating with strips containing very little carbon. Corner Damascus was done as follows. They took a strip of striped Damascus, heated it and twisted it under a hammer, then flattened it and again pulled it into a strip. The same strip was welded to the obtained strip, but twisted in the opposite direction. The result was a drawing resembling a square or the Roman letter V, in the middle of which the center line was clearly visible. By welding two V-shaped strips, a pattern resembling the letter W was obtained. We will return to the methods for producing pink Damascus.
                  On the rusted fragments of the found swords, drawings of all the listed types of welding Damascus were found. Interestingly, after they removed the rust and looked at the cross-sectional structure of the swords, they found that the pattern (“damask weave”) does not pass through the entire mass of metal. The study was primarily struck by the difference in the structure of Damascus on one side of the blade and on the other. After grinding, polishing and acid pickling of the cross section of the blades, dark layers appeared on them - these were solid pieces of steel with a high carbon content. They were deliberately welded into a soft base. From this it follows that when developing swords, the skeleton was first forged, and then forged damask strips were mounted on it from two sides.
                  The blades of the swords were smooth, without a pattern, therefore, they were welded separately. On individual swords, the blade was a welded strip of carbon steel and Damascus. Thus, all the swords found differed in the quality and structure (pattern) of the iron used for the blade and body of the sword.
                  Chemical analysis of the metal of Roman swords revealed the following content of elements in steel (in percent): carbon - 0,6; silicon - 0,15; Manganese - 0,363; phosphorus is 0,054 and sulfur is 0,073. The carbon content from the axis of the sword to the blade increased.
                  There are other known methods of preparing welding damask. One of them consisted in the fact that the strip was welded from 20 layers of harder and milder steel, arranged in different ways depending on the purpose of use of the product, after which the strip was bent and welded again for 40 layers, it was still bent and welded
            2. +1
              13 June 2019 23: 46
              Quote: lucul
              And they, German rocket engineers could not do them. They take finished grades of steel and alloys, but these materials were in Germany and remained there.

              Wait, wait !! I don't understand here, the alloys were created NOT by engineers?
              What was the problem of repeating the material with the presence of people who know how to do this?
              I can understand that it was precisely those people who did not get into the USSR or that individual equipment that made certain details. But certainly the Queen did not have to invent everything from scratch.
      3. -8
        12 June 2019 11: 11
        Quote: PilotS37
        Colleagues, in 1948 the so-called "struggle against cosmopolitanism" began in the USSR. It was originally directed against the Jews,
        but very quickly turned into a struggle with common sense in general.


        I. Stalin did not have anything against Jews - he participated in the creation of the state of Israel, did not exile Jews to the Jewish Autonomous Region (EAO) within the USSR.
        His mother was Jewish.

        In the process of this company, all scientific and technical terms in the country were replaced by Russian-language counterparts, and domestic authors were searched for all scientific discoveries and technical achievements.


        It all started with the fact that due to the backwardness of Soviet production, because of which worship of the West flourished. This was due to the fact that after the war, servicemen who traveled abroad saw that industry was much better developed there, which did not correspond to Soviet propaganda.

        The expression "rootless cosmopolitan" appeared in 1948. Its author is A.A. Zhdanov, who in January 1948, speaking at a meeting of Soviet music figures
        in the Central Committee of the CPSU, he said: "Internationalism is born where national art flourishes. Forgetting this truth means losing your face,
        to become a rootless cosmopolitan. "


        So it’s surprising that Russian biographers in 1950 ... 80. preferred to hide the true "creators of our victories", not worth it!


        The history of science and technology in the USSR was presented from the point of view of the unconditional priority of Soviet and pre-revolutionary Russian scientists in all fields of knowledge.
        The achievements of foreign scientists and inventors were hushed up.
        Often such an installation led to direct fraud.
        Understood in this way, "patriotism" from the content point of view was most clearly manifested in the humanities, primarily in history and literary criticism. They talked about "primordially Russian lands", about the unconditionally progressive role of the conquests of the Russian tsars.
        http://stalinism.ru/stalin-i-gosudarstvo/stalin-i-evrei.html?start=2

        That is just the propaganda of socialism, as something progressive.
        Propaganda - and nothing personal.

        From school, children were told that Soviet means the best.
        Now, then even the exams of the Unified State Examination know that American, German, Japanese,
        Chinese is the best.
        And in the USSR, they made such coffins in household appliances that you can laugh for a long time at the lamp "Symphonies" and "Surf", "Olympus" and "Estonias"
        with primitive "Radio engineering".
        1. +8
          12 June 2019 18: 36
          And in the USSR, they made such coffins in household appliances that you can laugh for a long time at the lamp "Symphonies" and "Surf", "Olympus" and "Estonias"
          with primitive "Radio engineering"

          Not funny. And it’s not so clear at all
          1. -8
            12 June 2019 19: 11
            Well, maybe someone has preserved that as an antique, but basically it was thrown into the trash.
            It is enough to go to shops selling equipment to understand that foreign equipment is in demand mainly.
            1. +7
              12 June 2019 19: 44
              The USSR ceased to exist more than 28 years ago. And this country was not backward, neither technically nor in any other way. The equipment in the union was made a lot and different. So, Soviet tube amplifiers are still respected today by lovers of good sound. And in the garbage dump mainly foreign equipment, do not believe me - go see ...
              1. 0
                14 June 2019 00: 57
                Quote: Olddetractor
                The USSR ceased to exist more than 28 years ago. And this country was not backward, neither technically nor in any other way. The equipment in the union was made a lot and different. So, Soviet tube amplifiers are still respected today by lovers of good sound. And in the garbage dump mainly foreign equipment, do not believe me - go see ...


                The USSR was not backward, but lagging behind for a number of reasons (participation in the unpopular imperialist war, palace coup, revolution, occupation by foreign states, civil war, devastation ...).
                I. Stalin spoke about the backlog of the USSR at the first All-Union Conference of Workers of Socialist Industry on February 4, 1931 - "... We are 50-100 years behind the advanced countries. We have to cover this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or they will crush us."
                Much has been done to overcome the backlog, but there is still more left to do.
                Due to the backwardness of Soviet production at the household consumer level, worship of the West flourished.
                PS In the garbage can any equipment - Soviet and modern. But there is nothing to look at - all the equipment is very quickly disassembled into components quite decently dressed citizens.
                1. 0
                  14 June 2019 07: 29
                  I think that admiration for the West "flourished" not because of the backwardness of Soviet production. This phenomenon, as well as the international communist movement, clearly had other reasons and sources of funding.
                  PS It is hardly worth judging by the clothes of people rummaging in garbage
          2. +1
            15 June 2019 10: 28
            I don’t have to tryndet. Right now, at the moment I have radio equipment 77 years old, the tips are soldered. The master who tested it after the repair said that the Japanese remake with 50-70 thousand did not lie next to him. This is the master of radio electronics said! a head start for all of them in terms of the output quality. gives brother Electronic Engineer, Brig of the third revision, you can buy something similar from remodels, but you will pay at least 80 thousand for it
        2. +6
          12 June 2019 21: 04
          Quote: Minato2020
          you can laugh for a long time at the tube Symphonies and Surf


          It’s possible especially on tube amplifiers. With their purest sound and price in the foreign countries from 1 ton of raccoons ...
        3. +2
          13 June 2019 21: 00
          Yes, you don’t have to lie ... Until now, the ocean of 86 years of operation works .... True from the outlet .. There are no batteries
        4. +2
          18 June 2019 16: 31
          A typical case of admiration for the West and the East. A completely unconstructive and unpromising position. By the way, false. Katz offers to surrender ... And a dishonest reception in polemics. On this forum, military equipment is discussed, and here household equipment is sewn. Do you have any complaints about Soviet military equipment? For some reason, the Germans and Americans did not. They were really afraid of her, she tore them apart quite successfully. By the way, about household appliances. Our refrigerator "Oka" 1960
          and went to the dump in working order, never breaking down. Radiola "Sakta" and combine "Leningrad" are still working in the country. Soviet light bulbs have always served many times longer than any imported ones. And they shone no worse. And what the victims of the exam "know" does not matter.
    2. 0
      12 June 2019 09: 36
      Quote: Nitochkin
      all by myself, all by myself.

      Alexander Alexandrovich, for all his not small achievements, did not differ in modesty and quite confidently nominated himself for the Stalin Prize. But in the case of the M-34 and BMW they are related only by the dimension
    3. 0
      15 June 2019 10: 22
      I davicha here on the site had a conversation with opponents about the engines and tried to reason with my comrades about what this article was written about, they mixed it with a substance, a certain one. quantities of the same ...
  4. +2
    12 June 2019 06: 22
    If sclerosis doesn’t fail me, in 1966 they only thought about building a plant. the first VAZ cars went only in that year 70. I am not a fan, but at that time it was a very successful machine .. Unfortunately, the engine of those years is on the Shnivy. need a horse engine 120 and a box automatic. it will be just a bomb.
    1. +12
      12 June 2019 10: 33
      There is a book about AvtoVAZ "Flame of High Thought". Everything is told there, from making a decision to purchase a plant, through testing applicants, to building workshops and launching a VAZ-2101 series. And the further life of the plant is told there.
      In a nutshell, the Italians won thanks to the fact that the factory was able to produce 2 cars a year, and the Renault factory only 650000. The factory was bought first. Fiat-250000 on the tests fell apart, unlike Renault-124. After making the decision to build the FIAT plant, trade began on the modernization of 16 models to our realities. Italy wanted to sell the model as is, but the USSR insisted on changes: a top-mounted engine, a reinforced structure and many other improvements.
      For those times, 4 years difference between the "Best Model of Europe" and the release of the first Zhiguli is nothing at all.
      1. 0
        12 June 2019 16: 53
        Well, there the price played an even greater role. The KGB found that Italians had problems and urgently needed money. As a result, the plant was purchased much cheaper than the French offered. Plus more buns in the form of improvements received.
        1. 0
          12 June 2019 18: 29
          Fact, when discussing the price there were "secrets of the Madrid court".
      2. +1
        12 June 2019 17: 52
        More than 800 changes have been made.
      3. +1
        12 June 2019 21: 07
        Quote: Ural-4320
        but the USSR insisted on changes:

        not only insisted, but then the Italians made these changes on their fiats.
        a participant in those events taught at our place. an interesting person.
      4. +2
        12 June 2019 21: 30
        And we had to sweat a lot. To make a normal sharpener out of this import clunker, raise the resource from 5000 hours to 100000 hours. just what it costs.
        1. +2
          13 June 2019 00: 11
          Sorry, of course I meant kilometers. not a watch.
      5. 0
        18 June 2019 16: 42
        It was still not clear to me why it was necessary to sell so many cars for sale. The fact is that before these years there was propaganda that the USSR would not follow the dead end Western path of irrational use of resources for individual motorization. Reasonable arguments were made that individuals carry air, create traffic jams and smog, destroy the community consciousness. Public transport and car rental network development plans were published. And then - how cut off! Public propaganda ended and the race for personal cars began. Well, why did car sharing appear just now? Why, instead of or along with FIAT, it was impossible to buy a bus factory from MAN or IVECO and saturate the USSR transport at least to today's level?
        I think for the same money everything could be done many times better. But some individuals with a distant sight intentionally spoiled everything even then. The results are known.
        1. 0
          18 June 2019 16: 52
          Why does the country need a MAN plant or IVECO, when the country has its own LiAZs, LAZs, PAZs, KavZy, RAF, Kurgan and others. And Ikarus bought from the Hungarians.
          1. 0
            22 June 2019 23: 54
            It is also true, but by analogy: I bought a license for a passenger car instead of a bus. To be honest, Mers is better than Liaz and Ikarus. We must take the best and then do even better. For example, it was possible with the "Nin" jet engine. Its Soviet modification turned out to be better than the next British modification.
        2. 0
          19 June 2019 23: 38
          Quote: meandr51
          Public transport and car rental network development plans were published. And then - how cut off! Public propaganda ended and the race for personal cars began.

          It was necessary to sterilize the money that appeared in people. Selling private cars is the easiest way to do this in a planned economy.
          1. 0
            23 June 2019 00: 01
            Stupid decision. There were not so many cars and their buyers to sterilize something on the Union scale. It would be better if more cooperative apartments were built and produced more high-quality consumer goods for everyone. Again, mass car rental and public transport - why not a means of "sterilization"? In my opinion, there were already stupid and lazy people in the government.
            1. 0
              24 June 2019 01: 32
              Well yes. Judging by the result, there were more unsuccessful decisions in the economy than the right ones.
  5. +10
    12 June 2019 06: 48
    Someone will say that to put it mildly, it is difficult to compare, but that is what it is. Small and reliable on the one hand and borrowed on the other. Sorry, but there was such a time. No one, unfortunately, gave us either designers or engineers. About the plants even keep quiet.
    Not everything was so bad with the designers. There were V.M.Yakovlev, A.A. Bessonov. There were domestic engines, for example M-15. M-15 "motor fifteenth" - the Soviet aircraft piston air-cooled engine. The first powerful aircraft engine of the original Soviet design, one of the first Soviet aircraft engines with a centrifugal driven supercharger (PTsN). There were other developments, but for various reasons they did not reach the assembly line.
    1. 0
      12 June 2019 09: 29
      Quote: Amurets
      There were other developments, but for various reasons they did not reach the conveyor

      Yes, the work was carried out - M-12, M-13, M-15, M18, M-27, M-32. M-58 Urmina (especially not bad). but we needed proven technologies, and this time, but it was not (as well as experience). The lack of delivery of technologies for the "Majors" led to severe consequences of accidents, delays and landings. in the case of domestic motors, it would only be worse.
      1. +6
        12 June 2019 12: 51
        Quote: mark1
        The lack of delivery of technologies for the "Majors" led to severe consequences of accidents, delays and landings. in the case of domestic motors, it would only be worse
        Yes, there’s no reason to argue with you. But for some reason, no one recalls that neither in the Republic of Ingushetia nor in the USSR there was an exact and precision machine tool industry, a shortage of alloy steels, valve, heat-resistant, etc. this is the reason for the lag in domestic engine building.
        1. +2
          12 June 2019 13: 22
          Quote: Amurets
          this is the reason for the lag in domestic engine building.

          And this, including.
  6. +4
    12 June 2019 07: 23
    Someone will say that to put it mildly, it is difficult to compare, but that is what it is. Small and reliable on the one hand and borrowed on the other. Sorry, but there was such a time. No one, unfortunately, gave us either designers or engineers. About the plants even keep quiet.

    Somewhere in the second half of the 1980s, I happened to read a translated article from some major foreign aviation magazine ("Flight" is spinning in my brain, but I'm not sure). She was just on this topic, but went even further: before the Russians copied the Rolls-Royce Nene, turning it into VK-1 (RD-45).
    So there was no scorn at the "Bolshevik Lapotniks", on the contrary, as a general tendency was noted that Russians are bad with new ideas, but they perfectly know how to "squeeze the juices" out of ready-made samples. In particular, it was noted that VK-1, being reworked by Nene, turned out to be better than the next model from Rolls-Royce, RB. 44 Tay.
  7. +10
    12 June 2019 07: 26
    a good, unbiased article .... we are far from the first on the thorny path of copying, and there’s nothing wrong with that ...., the Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, and many Europeans did not hesitate to borrow. I agree with the author - Time Was This, everything had to be done from scratch ..., unfortunately the Monarchy was backward and rather sloppy, woe to the monarchists ..., worthy engineers and scientists were ...., but unfortunately at home it was very difficult to realize their talents ..., there was no production base, and the authorities preferred abroad, just like now ..... or now like then ...
  8. -3
    12 June 2019 07: 49
    Quote: wooja
    Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, and many Europeans did not hesitate to borrow.

    So after all, the F-15 in its design and proportions is suspiciously similar to the MiG-25 (an accident, of course!).
    1. +2
      12 June 2019 09: 16
      If you look at the drawings (top view) of the MiG 25 and A-5 "Vigilent", then you can also profoundly notice - there is something in the MiG "from a diver" * ...
      * "Dog's heart"
  9. +7
    12 June 2019 07: 49
    Regarding Mikulin and M-34, it is not written correctly. Mikulin took the dimension of BMW, so what?
    All designers use successful solutions from other developers.
    Now we need to talk about the current state of piston aircraft engines in Russia. There is none of them. Again they returned to the times of the 20s of the last century. Everything develops in a spiral, again trying to adapt automobile engines to light aircraft, while forgetting that the operating modes of aircraft engines and automobile engines are different. In the 30s, some "fiery revolutionaries" promoted the idea of ​​universalism in technology. In the 40s, the USSR paid in blood for these ideas. Now "effective managers" are promoting these ideas again. Amateurs are not exterminated and aggressive people, who piously believed in their righteousness. There is no need for enemies either, their "fiery and effective" will do such business that then for a long time "you have to disentangle". Piston aircraft engines will be in demand for at least another twenty years. General aviation in Russia is in dire need of its own aircraft motors, but they are not yet available.
    1. 0
      13 June 2019 13: 05
      And now we do not have locomotives. What to do?
  10. +4
    12 June 2019 08: 03
    Roman, well, to be exact ... in 1966, a contract was signed for the construction of the Volga automobile plant, construction began in 1967, this construction was announced as a shock Komsomol construction project, and in 1970 or 1971 the first car rolled off the assembly line .. And at the time signing the contract, this Italian car brand was the best in Europe and popular in 1966. By 1971, it was no longer the best ..
    1. -1
      12 June 2019 11: 31
      The better and more modern the car is for private ownership, and not for social movement, the worse for human society.
      Quote: "A car cripples people physically and morally, both those who are driving and pedestrians, passers-by. Participation in the same road traffic of people armed with a car and unarmed pedestrians is immoral and illegal, since generates inequality in relation to the right to life. The success of medicine in extending human life means only that road traffic accidents (RTA) will come first among the causes of death. "

      http://scepsis.net/library/id_2101.html

      In the same place: "... a passenger car in a big city is not so much a vehicle as a sports equipment, a toy for everyday self-assertion. But private and club spaces are intended for play and sports. Why torment other forced road users with your hobby?
      Utility vehicles, tools, devices sooner or later turn into sports equipment. So it was with boats and skis, the same happens with a car. He is destined for a place of honor on sports grounds and tracks, as well as in museums. "
  11. +10
    12 June 2019 08: 11
    The forced version of the M-105 engine, which became the M-107

    Why's that? With 105th out of the total, only the dimensions are practically a new development. The forced version of the 105th is the M-106.
    In our country, the M-85 - M-87 engines were installed on the DB-3 and Il-4 bombers.
    The IL-4 was equipped with the M-88 (1100 hp at 4500 m)
    The motor was frankly weak, but very reliable.

    It would not be bad to mention in the line of "Majors" M-89 (1590 hp about 250 units) the 18-cylinder version - M-90 (1700-2080 hp) they were simply out of luck.
    Mikulin - taken dimensions and ideology (oversized naturally aspirated engine) from BMW everything else is its own. Subsequently, the stock of displacement and the installation of boost allowed more than three times (2800 hp) to increase power (with certain improvements) BMW did not lie nearby.
    M-11 resource by 1936 reached 400 hours.
    Why not mention the M-40 and M-30
    From serial domestic to the 30s M-26, MG-31
    1. 0
      13 June 2019 16: 02
      I would like to elaborate on aircraft diesel engines in more detail: they were not in the automotive industry, i.e. we didn’t have competencies (as they say today) ... But the T-34 tank was equipped with aerial roots with diesel ... Where did it come from?
      1. 0
        13 June 2019 19: 36
        If you mean the "German trace" then it is not there or is not visible, but surely in the late 20s and early 30s there were contacts with Junkers on general issues. The first "live" aircraft diesel appeared in the USSR in 1933, the design of A.D. Charomsky - AN-1, M-30 and M-40, and its serial development. By the way, they were the first in the world on serial aircraft engines, turbocharged 4 TK was applied Power 1250/1500 hp. Later on mod. ACh-30BF had 2 TC and 2 monitoring stations, the power was increased to 1500hp. at 6000m and 1900hp takeoff. The M-40 and M-30 were installed at the beginning of the war on the TB-7, but were quickly replaced by the AM-35A due to unreliability; later, the ACh-30B modification was installed on the serial EP-2. On the basis of Yakovlev's M-40, ship versions of the M-50 were subsequently created. Well, B-2 is a derivative of AN-1.
        1. +1
          13 June 2019 20: 51
          I can’t say anything about Charomsky’s engines, but the UMOs are in-line, push-pull with a DAP, and B2 is a four-stroke V-frame. Aerial rods are of course observed, a KShM with the main and trailed connecting rods and a four-valve head. Well, luminium of course.
        2. +1
          13 June 2019 20: 52
          The engine from Junkers is very similar to the engine from Chiften, also in-line, two-stroke, with a MAP and two crankshafts.
          1. 0
            13 June 2019 22: 29
            Quote: Grossvater
            The engine from Junkers is very similar to the engine from Chiften, also in-line, two-stroke, with a MAP and two crankshafts.

            And 5TD (F) is only one vertical and the other horizontal.
        3. -1
          4 July 2019 16: 33
          And yet: can anyone paint the pedigree of the V-2 diesel?
          For me, this is the "darkest" story of the origin of our technology.
          Once again, the starting point of my understanding: we did not have diesels (from the word voooobsche!) And suddenly - there was a cool engine that still works. Where from? as? by whom? etc. etc.
  12. +19
    12 June 2019 08: 30
    "In general, in the 30-40s, our industry undoubtedly made a huge leap forward. From direct photocopying, which, in general, is not shameful, but is an indicator of the level of development of the design school in the country, to the steady production of its equipment in mass and serial . "
    "just a huge leap" is not just a leap, in terms of the degree of development it is closer to a rocket launch.
    In a matter of years, the country has done what has developed in decades and not one, especially in the field of education. A country that did not actually have its own engineering and standardization systems in the early 30s already produced products capable of withstanding developed countries by the middle of the decade, Spanish events. An engine is not just drawings, it’s special materials and alloys, all of this had to be developed and put into production, science, science, and again science. Machines and equipment, the same to develop, manufacture and introduce into production. But most importantly, the cadres who decided everything. Able to develop a production technology that could be performed by untrained personnel, given their presence until the 60s of the last century. The country did not have secondary education standards for the population, it was primary and then not for everyone, 4 to the central vocational school, and higher education was available only a narrow layer of society, only for the solution of this issue is to put monuments to Soviet leaders.
    1. 0
      12 June 2019 08: 48
      exactly....
    2. -1
      12 June 2019 09: 19
      An engine is not just drawings, it’s special materials and alloys, all of this had to be developed and put into production, science, science, and again science. Machines and equipment, the same to develop, manufacture and introduce into production

      I see a person with a technical background))).
      For the humanities - electricity is taken from the outlet, it’s easy for them to talk ...)))
      1. -1
        12 June 2019 10: 33
        Sockets, the same are different.
      2. +2
        12 June 2019 11: 36
        Quote: Strashila
        But most importantly, the cadres who decided everything. Able to develop production technology that could be performed by unprepared personnel, given their availability until the 60s of the last century. The country did not have secondary education standards for the population, it was primary, and then not for everyone, 4 to the central vocational school, and the higher education was accessible only to a narrow layer of society, only monuments to Soviet leaders should be put up to solve this issue.


        Monuments are easy to put - and where to get the staff of teachers to train personnel
        to production?
        Can attract decent workers technicians, not economists?
  13. 0
    12 June 2019 08: 44
    M-11, a miracle engine that brought to the sky without exaggeration several generations of Soviet pilots,

    And now for UAVs can not reproduce such motors ..?
    1. +5
      12 June 2019 08: 49
      cannot ..., too cheap and good ..., do not cut
    2. +2
      12 June 2019 09: 00
      And to whom to reproduce them ?. The Chinese comrades decide everything simply, the party said it’s necessary, it means it’s necessary, we dumb technology blueprints at the beginning, since the Internet and the number of Chinese students abroad allow this ... and the most important thing is who can master everything without revealing much information, like in times The USSR is with us. In Russia today, even if our specialists are stealing, to whom should they give for development? That is the question.
      1. 0
        12 June 2019 11: 45
        Quote: Strashila
        The Chinese comrades decide everything simply, the party said it’s necessary, it means it’s necessary, we dumb technology blueprints at the beginning, since the Internet and the number of Chinese students abroad allow this ... and the most important thing is who can master everything without revealing much information, like in times The USSR is with us. In Russia today, even if our specialists are stealing, to whom should they give for development? That is the question.


        It remains only to dream - "Russia has successfully tested Leonov's anti-gravity engine"
        Can the Chinese build?
        https://topwar.ru/67965-rossiya-uspeshno-ispytala-antigravitacionnyy-dvigatel-leonova.html#comment-id-8986948
        1. 0
          12 June 2019 15: 05
          Gravitsapa?
    3. +1
      12 June 2019 09: 45
      Quote: Zaurbek
      And now for UAVs can not reproduce such motors ..?

      They can. preparing for production a whole line based on the M-11 using modern materials. RHYTHM they are called.
      While writing, I found out that the first batch had already been released - 7 cylinders of 200 hp. 11.3 liters.
      1. +3
        12 June 2019 12: 08
        Comrade Stalin left behind a good one.
  14. +1
    12 June 2019 08: 56
    Quote: Zaurbek
    And now for UAVs can not reproduce such motors ..?

    There is no one to reproduce. There are no factories specializing in piston aircraft motors, and the reformers have "gloriously destroyed" general-purpose motor factories. Now there must be a question of reviving the production of piston aircraft engines in Russia. With us, as always. "We will destroy the whole World to the ground." The question just arises: "Why?" Now the main thing is to "assimilate" budget money, but whether or not they will make an aviation engine out of an automobile engine is no longer important. They will then say: "Well, I didn't shmogla."
    1. +5
      12 June 2019 10: 52
      But the Bolsheviks completely destroyed the entire old system, and not the means of production. Or in Leningrad did all the factories rebuild?
  15. +7
    12 June 2019 09: 54
    The truth, as always, somewhere in the middle will be. If, in fact, the Germans created a decent engine, and Mikulin was a strong designer who made a monster out of a “German” that dragged an Il-2 armored box into one screw.
    The BMW VI engine had a great influence on the Soviet engine building, but Mikulin did not make a monster out of the "German". The M-34 and subsequent Mikulin engines are not a development of the BMW VI engine and its licensed version M-17. These are different engines produced in parallel. The license for the M-17 was bought in 1927, the development of the M-34 began in 1928, when the M-17 was not yet produced. The motors have a completely different power circuit of the block, i.e. there is a fundamental design difference.

    International Aviation Exhibition in Milan, 1935. The exposition of engines inspects Prince Eugene of Savoy-Genoese.
    Unfortunately, I did not find a photo of the inspection of the USSR’s exposition precisely with the M-34 engine, which enjoyed increased attention at this exhibition.
    In 1936, the M-34 was renamed AM-34, thus noting the merits of Mikulin. Further development of the AM-34 was the AM-35.
    1. +5
      12 June 2019 10: 30
      We must pay tribute to the Germans, who kindly granted us the right to produce an engine
      $ 50 was paid for German courtesy (approximately $ 000 at today's rate). In addition, after the release of the first 750 engines for five years, Germans were deducted 000% of the cost of each engine produced, but not less than $ 50 per year.
  16. +1
    12 June 2019 12: 35
    Respect to the author. There are small inaccuracies. The M-87/88 series was also used on the Su-2 and I-180 bomber. The motor was not weak at the end of 1943 on the modification of the M-89 with an injection pulled 1560 horses from it. In addition to everything, it was very economical. Again, the lack of a school for designing engines did not allow us to quickly realize our potential.
    M-82 and M-71/72/73 is the reproduction at our technical level of what was produced in the states in 35-37 years! That bish (R-2600 Twin Cyclone) and (R-3350). Again, the level of production culture did not allow to launch on time in a series.
    Regarding the AM-34/42 series. The base is our German performance. In fact, the am-34 and all the rest were completely domestic development, although the concept was preserved.
    1. +1
      12 June 2019 13: 45
      M-82 and M-71/72/73 is the reproduction at our technical level of what was produced in the states in 35-37 years! That bish (R-2600 Twin Cyclone) and (R-3350). Again, the level of production culture did not allow to launch on time in a series.
      A little about American manufacturing culture and 35-37 years.
      In 1937, the Wright R-2600 engine was still under development.
      Work on the Wright R-2600 engine began on September 23, 1936 according to the company's specification No. 439, and production began in 1938.
      The initial stage of production was marked by a series of scandals. The engine came under investigation by the Senate Committee, which discovered the mass production of defective parts and the use of low-quality materials, as well as the massive falsification of test reports. More than 25% of the engines tested by the commission failed during a 3-hour trial run.
      Arthur Miller even wrote the play “All My Sons,” in which a father, producing faulty aircraft parts, contributes to the deaths of 21 P-40 pilots and his own son.
      There was even a version of sabotage and the FBI was involved in the investigation.
      1. +1
        12 June 2019 14: 35
        Well, and what side of the Wright R-2600 to the P-40? And Shvetsov was in America and visited factories. Promising developments also seen. The prototypes and drawings of the Wright R-2600 he had on hand. If you look at them, then our ASH-82 has a longer front box of units because ours bother with the aerodynamics of stars. The States were more pragmatic in this regard. Where aerodynamics are lame, we have power. Well, if you rephrase the ento,
        1. 0
          12 June 2019 15: 04
          Well, and what side of the Wright R-2600 to the P-40?
          Both were produced by one company - Curtiss-Wright, the production of which was the subject of an investigation by the Senate Commission.
          1. +1
            12 June 2019 15: 47
            Well? Produced by one company. The engines are different. There were no questions to the airmen. And by the way, it was the Wright R-2600 that was used on a large range of aircraft flying around the world. The same B-25 had no complaints from anyone. Why drag in an unsupported one?
            1. +2
              12 June 2019 16: 13
              Hmm, even interesting. Let's try again.
              1. At the beginning of the production of the Wright R-2600 engine by Curtiss-Wright, there were many complaints about the quality of the engine, which served as the basis for the investigation of the Curtiss-Wright company by the Senate Committee, which monitored the progress of the National Defense Program. During the investigation, technology violations, marriage, forgery of documents were revealed, the case gained public resonance.
              2. The famous American playwright Arthur Miller, being a patriot, responded to the problem and created a work on the topic of the day. In order to show what threatens the release of defective and low-quality products and convey the importance of the problem to literally every American, he wrote the play “All My Sons”. The protagonist is an employee of Curtiss-Wright, but for the sake of plot, the author describes the production of aircraft instead of engine production. Dramatizes the plot.
              3. Thus we see that:
              - In the American motor industry, as well as in the Soviet one, there were also problems of product quality and personnel qualifications;
              - American cultural figures, like their Soviet colleagues, in their works depicted the theme of mass daily labor of people and its significance for the country's defense.
              Is it clear now? If not, I wash my hands and remove the question.
              1. -2
                12 June 2019 16: 38
                Laugh or cry? on the item van! Give a link! Pliz! And then it is in words somehow so very! If you are in the subject then you will not be difficult. Anglitsky though amerovsky we somehow master;). Given everything further? Do not sculpt Olgins that do not sculpt! It’s just better to go into the shadows than to portray and do worse!
                1. +2
                  12 June 2019 16: 51
                  For the first item - http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/r2600.htm, there is also a link to the Additional Report of the Special Committee Investigating the National Defense Program.
                  And please, if it is within your power, do not be rude and speak your language in a normal, literary language.
                  1. 0
                    12 June 2019 16: 54
                    Senks see
              2. The comment was deleted.
    2. +2
      13 June 2019 15: 08
      Quote: dgonni
      M-82 and M-71/72/73 is the reproduction at our technical level of what was produced in the states in 35-37 years! That bish (R-2600 Twin Cyclone) and (R-3350).

      In fairness, nevertheless, the level of 1939. The backlog with licenses was only 5 years, but the overall level of engine building was still 12 years worse, judging by the refinement and production.
      1. +2
        13 June 2019 16: 01
        Well, I'm about the same! The main issue in development was that they tried to force the engines in the forehead without an experimental base and materials. Where Europe and the Americans just cheerfully raised the inflatable, ours ran into the presence of high-octane fuel or higher-strength steels and other materials. Second point, aluminum castings! Europe and the states switched to injection molding, they only showed us this technology but didn’t sell it to us either. Those who come into contact with casting understand that the same head cast in these two ways has completely different properties, both heat resistance and strength.
        P.S. Although you must pay tribute to the designers! In terms of extraction of mares from one liter of volume, they did not graze the rear in any way! And Klimov and Mikulin and Shvetsov with Nazarov Urmin and others had a clear idea of ​​how and where to get them. The question was precisely in the technological backwardness of production and the main thing in the culture of production!
        1. +1
          13 June 2019 18: 07
          Quote: dgonni
          Where Europe and the Americans just cheerfully raised the inflatable, ours ran into the presence of high-octane fuel or higher-strength steels and other materials.

          These are difficult questions. For fuel, refineries and modifications of petroleum products were already operating for 1938, and could well receive gasoline with an octane rating of more than 110. But this is only Leningrad and Grozny. Scaling failed, despite the presence of a large amount of platinum. As a result, the Soviet catalytic components worked for the Anglo-American petrochemicals during the war, and the Soviet high-octane fuel balance was kept at 20%.
          Heat resistant steel. The theory was, the materials were. There wasn’t enough electric furnaces, converters and corny time to set the standards of reference materials. Therefore, after the war, we ran this way for 2 years. Sukhoi suffered from TK-1 and TK-2 until there were suitable materials.
  17. +3
    12 June 2019 12: 59
    Quote: dgonni
    M-82 and M-71/72/73 is the reproduction at our technical level of what was produced in the states in 35-37 years! That bish (R-2600 Twin Cyclone) and (R-3350).

    The R-2600 in a usable form is still 38-39, not 35-37. And the R-3350 on the B-29 and at 45 burned for a sweet soul. And on the first Skyraders there were problems with him. It was only after the war that they finally brought it to mind. Which, of course, does not negate the relative backwardness of our engine industry. sad
    1. +1
      12 June 2019 15: 50
      Yes, eighteen were burning. But they burned for one reason, turbochargers and general haste with the commissioning. Although we have both EP-2 and PE-8 burned and without them fun. Again haste. Which does not detract from the fact of Shvetsov’s promising thought and the general technological backwardness of industry for the production of such motors.
      P.S. The first M-82s clearly also did not shine with perfection and reliability.
  18. -4
    12 June 2019 13: 04
    Yes, of course ... There were no Dviguns of their own .. But what kind of aircraft they released .. Aerodynamically more advanced than in the west .. After all, still no more perfect machine than I-16 Polikarpov has been created in the west ..
  19. +2
    12 June 2019 13: 07
    And what to be surprised at screwdriver industries, the possibilities of which are limited by copying? - Any power unit does not start with a design office, but with factory laboratories, with test benches, with a scientific, technological, metrological base. There were no structural materials themselves, and this is the level of the earth. Alas, what was not in pre-revolutionary, and in Soviet Russia for a long time only had to dream. What they managed to get, they worked with that, and with dignity, albeit sometimes by sight.
  20. 0
    12 June 2019 17: 35
    After all, the earth took three hundred years to come. According to the vile theory of Einstein.
  21. +1
    12 June 2019 19: 03
    The passage about aircraft designers at the beginning of the article hurts the eye.
    Information for the author: Sikorsky was a good designer,
    Tupolev is great.
    1. +1
      12 June 2019 20: 07
      You are Boris, you (you) are wrong! You have to be more modest.
    2. Alf
      0
      12 June 2019 21: 32
      Quote: borys
      The passage about aircraft designers at the beginning of the article hurts the eye.
      Information for the author: Sikorsky was a good designer,
      Tupolev is great.

      It is not difficult to become an excellent aircraft designer if in the 41st year they give you a BROWN Dvigun in 2000 mares, and by the 44th they will roll out an engine of 2400 horses from the Wright’s gate. But try to create a great bomber with two for 1850 ... That's who is really a great aircraft designer!
      1. +1
        12 June 2019 22: 41
        Quote: Alf
        But try to create a great bomber with two for 1850 ... That's who is really a great aircraft designer!

        Atwood and Kindleberger, or what? 2x1700 - a great bomber made, B-25, no one complained much winked
        1. Alf
          0
          16 June 2019 22: 22
          Quote: vbnsh
          Quote: Alf
          But try to create a great bomber with two for 1850 ... That's who is really a great aircraft designer!

          Atwood and Kindleberger, or what? 2x1700 - a great bomber made, B-25, no one complained much winked

          TU-2.
  22. 0
    12 June 2019 22: 22
    There is nothing to break spears here. The author is right: there were no engines, and there were still problems with aluminum, but they won.
  23. +2
    12 June 2019 22: 44
    As one cartoon character used to say - "Well, everything is fine, everything on the table is besides fish and caviar ..."
    So in this article for some reason is skipped THE VERY FIRST aircraft engine produced in our country from 1922 to 1933! And he was also a copy of a foreign engine! But at that time it was impossible to do otherwise.
    Dear Roman! You "forgot" about family engines Liberty L-12 / M-5!
    The Soviet M-5 engine (a copy of the American Liberty L-12 engine) was installed on P1, P-3 aircraft. Not to mention the installation of the BT-5 tank.
    And you forgot about him!

    Wikipedia -
    According to the worn-out trophy prototype of the Liberty motor available at GAZ No. 2 (the so-called Ikar plant), at the end of 1922 a set of working drawings of the motor in the metric system of measures was released, which required a large number of verification calculations. A tolerance and landing system, manufacturing and assembly technology for parts and assemblies were developed, cutting and measuring tools and devices were manufactured. The plant was reconstructed, equipped with missing equipment and somewhat expanded. Work on the production of documentation and preparation of production was carried out under the guidance of designer A. A. Bessonov and chief engineer of the plant M. P. Makaruk.
  24. +5
    13 June 2019 09: 02
    But alas, it’s hard to deny that actually ALL Soviet aircraft engines were copies of imported developments.

    Until now, on many weapons and aviation sites, people have broken spears, how exactly Mikulin’s motors should be considered, as independent work or how copy of the german engine.

    Roman, "copies" ended in M-22, M-25, M-100 and M-17. The changes introduced gave birth others engines. Already "their". With other structural elements, with changed technologies. Other characteristics and features. To say that the M-62, M-63 or M-82 are a "copy" of the Wright R-1820 Cyclone, and the M-105 PF or M-107 are a copy of the Hispano-Suiza 12Y, is, to put it mildly, not correct.
  25. +5
    13 June 2019 10: 45
    Many inaccuracies, and in some places mistakes. It was striking that the author wrote about M-85 and M-87, he mentioned M-86, but he forgot about the most massive and powerful in the M-88 family, he was still put on the Su-2, except for IL-4. About the creation of M-34, the author is completely off topic, M-17 had insufficient power and Mikulin was tasked with creating a more powerful engine that can be put on the M-17 engine mount without altering the aircraft. M-34 is an absolutely original design!
  26. 0
    13 June 2019 12: 59
    I just can’t understand why we almost had zero exhaust of 2 engine fighters,
    if such problems were to supply mono-motors of the required power?
    moreover, there were probably 15 pieces of projects - this is also what the pawn was made of, and SAM-13 and others
    and foreign experience was available (for example, in England, France and Germany, these were in service)
    Before the war, Americans washed down the light, i.e. the trend is obvious.
    1. +1
      14 June 2019 11: 04
      A difficult problem is to make a maneuverable twin-engine aircraft. Of all that was riveted into World War II, in fact, only the P-38 was a normal fighter (not a night bombing interceptor, namely for air combat) - due to a bunch of design tricks.
  27. 0
    13 June 2019 13: 01
    Quote: Nathanael
    e created a more perfect machine than I-16 Polikarpova

    did not understand the irony.
    in those days probably flew 5 or 6 fighters of different countries, which are in the same color
    you would be very difficult to distinguish.
  28. 0
    13 June 2019 13: 07
    Quote: Ural-4320
    But the Bolsheviks completely destroyed the entire old system, and not the means of production. Or in Leningrad did all the factories rebuild?

    the factories are not all rebuilt, but there are 2 but
    1. equipment before the revolution (circa 1910) and 1930 are already 2 big differences
    2. Personnel. that’s what was destroyed, and before the revolution it was very tight with them.
  29. +2
    13 June 2019 13: 32
    "Small lies give rise to great distrust" ....
    Why am I? And to the fact that the statement "not so long ago, in 1966, a certain automobile plant was built in the USSR, producing outdated Italian cars .." is sinning, to put it mildly, inaccuracies. And in relation to the date of construction of the plant and in terms of consumer qualities of products.
    After this, reading the material inevitably lays doubt on its reliability.
    The author, by the way, "indulges" with such inaccuracies not for the first time. It's a pity, because the materials are usually interesting from him.
  30. 0
    13 June 2019 20: 41
    The engine with PO2 hit, the resource is most likely extremely small

    Engine M-11FR
    Specifications:
    - take-off power - 160 hp ;
    - speed max. - 1900 rpm;
    - motor weight - 180 kg;
    - resource - 500 hours.
    https://izi.travel/browse/4344f215-38c2-456a-b1f4-e3f8afcac6c5/ru
  31. 0
    13 June 2019 20: 56
    Valery Avgustinovich, "Battle for speed. History of aircraft engine building".
    There is in tyrnete, quite so free. Great book on the topic. Highly recommend reading.
  32. 0
    14 June 2019 10: 47
    The constructor is yes. To understand how it generally works, what is important, which is secondary, where to use what plantings and materials, transfer everything to paper in a digestible form. But industry is also needed. And not anyhow what. Even to copy all this you need to have not simple machines, people with hands, heads, trained to work on this all. Plus a tool (cutting, measuring, etc.), sensible organizers, and all this is far from a single copy for mass production. By the way, the foundry and forge and press production here is also not bad.
  33. -2
    14 June 2019 11: 09
    Quote: yehat
    I just can’t understand why we almost had zero exhaust of 2 engine fighters,
    if such problems were to supply mono-motors of the required power?
    moreover, there were probably 15 pieces of projects - this is also what the pawn was made of, and SAM-13 and others
    and foreign experience was available (for example, in England, France and Germany, these were in service)
    Before the war, Americans washed down the light, i.e. the trend is obvious.

    so the maneuver was not so necessary.
    We lacked a Focke-Wulf type interception with high speed, armament and rate of climb.
    Lagg-3, la-5, la-7 and even il-2 occupied this niche.
    1. 0
      15 June 2019 00: 08
      Yehat
      "... We missed a Focke-Wulf interception with high speed, armament and rate of climb ..."
      Another stupid thing.
      With high speed and powerful weapons FV-190, I probably agree.
      But the rate of climb of the very heavy FV-190 was worse than all other single-engine fighters.
      And another question: why did we need this "focke-wolf interception" ????
  34. 0
    14 June 2019 14: 25
    The motor is a complex, namely: hard + soft. In the USSR, they could not reach the advanced level in the internal combustion engine (hence the problems of the automobile industry), and in the aircraft engine building of the USSR, perhaps, it is closest to the end of its existence. However, production turned out to be in Ukraine, and the design bureau in the Russian Federation. This predetermined the general degradation of the "domestic" engine building. A state with such a small population as the Russian Federation cannot independently develop aviation for a long time. Either ... or ....
  35. 0
    16 July 2019 09: 28
    Quote: Dedok
    I would like to elaborate on aircraft diesel engines in more detail: they were not in the automotive industry, i.e. we didn’t have competencies (as they say today) ... But the T-34 tank was equipped with aerial roots with diesel ... Where did it come from?


    I wrote about aircraft roots - because I read that they tried to put diesel engines on the PE-8.
    The fact that this is not ours is understandable, but, the question of where and when it came to us?
  36. 0
    April 22 2024 17: 29
    “I don’t have any other designers for you” (c).