A new submachine gun is hard to come up with. Swede vs. Singaporean

53
Submachine gun yesterday, today, tomorrow. Submachine guns from different countries and continents are often very similar, like twin brothers. But they say about everyone that he is the best. Today we look at the CBJ-MS submachine guns of 6.5x25 CBJ-MS by the Swedish company CBJ Tech AB and CPW Kinetics, which is offered by Singapore’s ST Kinetics, and in several calibers at once: 9 × 19 mm Parabellum, 5,7 × 28 mm and 4,6 × 30 mm. In the previous article, “Pistols and machine guns of the era of change and ammunition for them,” we examined it a bit. But not very detailed and without comparison with analogues. Today we fill this gap ...


It seems to be portable weapon this CBJ-MS, but if you take it in hand, then ... it will not be small at all!




With traditional Swedish quality!


As you know, Sweden has created in the past and is still creating many interesting types of weapons, always with high, “Swedish” quality. So the creation of a new submachine gun for the army of Great Britain was taken first by the concern SAAB-Bofors. But when the British decided to abandon him, CBJ Tech AB took on the new submachine gun, designated CBJ-MS PDW (Personal Defense Weapon - personal defense weapon). As a result, the original PP appeared chambered for 6.5x25 CBJ-MS, which is also used in Glock pistols and HK MP5 submachine guns.

A new submachine gun is hard to come up with. Swede vs. Singaporean

So this “Swede” looks like from the right side. The window for ejection of spent cartridges is traditionally large.


It is difficult to think of a new one, so why not improve the famous?


Today it is difficult to come up with something “such”, “incompatible with anything”, something they would not have invented, so many structural improvements are reduced not to the design itself, or even to production technology, but to design. Here and in the submachine gun CBJ-MS there is nothing revolutionary. A free shutter is used, and shooting occurs from the open shutter. USM allows you to shoot and bursts, and single fire. To select the shooting mode, you do not need to press any “buttons”. Everything is reduced to pressing the trigger: strongly pressed - you get shots in a queue; if the pressure is weak - a single shot. Convenient to say. No need to move "levers". It became fashionable, and long ago, so that the cocking handle remained fixed during firing. But here it was transferred to the back side of the receiver and gave a characteristic conical shape. Since the front grip for holding is in such a way that the hand of the shooter can accidentally touch the hot barrel, a fuse plate is placed under it. The receiver is made of stainless steel by stamping, which increases the strength of the weapon.


And this is how it looks equipped with two shops and a silencer.


Universal handles and 100-cartridge shop


The store, like the Uzi, is located in the Ingram in the pistol grip, which traditionally reduces the size of the weapon. But what is interesting is that the spare shop was thought of by the designers to insert it into the front handle to hold it, and this can already be considered one of the highlights of this design. Its location allows you to save time on recharging. Yes, very little. But better such savings than no! As for the stores for CBJ-MS, they are used with double-row filling cartridges for 30 and 20 cartridges. However, there is also a drum magazine on 100 cartridges with a long neck, also included in the handle. Well, the simplest shoulder rest is easier, nowhere is it easier, from steel wire, but there is Picatinny on the receiver (where is it now without it?) To mount a collimator sight on this PP, or whoever it wishes. Moreover, for this submachine gun provided for ... bipod and quick-release barrel! So you can shoot out of it for a long time, a lot and with taste - relying on a bipod, and the overheated stem can be quickly replaced with a new one!

In fact, the Swedes turned out the same "Uzi", but its own, "Swedish", and with the ability to conduct a long machine-gun fire and more ergonomic, according to the requirements of the time. Even the color of him and that - green, which today represents another trend: to create a weapon in camouflage coloring.


CBJ-MS in section.


Patron around the head!


However, the most interesting thing about this submachine gun is not its design, but the small-caliber cartridge used in it, which has a very high initial velocity of the bullet, which is made of ... a tungsten alloy, and fixed in a plastic tray. Moreover, the diameter of the bullet is not just small compared to other bullets for submachine guns, but very small - just some 4-mm, and this is despite the fact that the diameter of the barrel in him and so all 6,5-mm. That is, the bullet to this submachine gun is also sub-caliber, and it is not surprising that its initial speed is higher than that of the Mosin rifle - 830 m / s, although the barrel itself has a length of only 200 mm. At the base of the liner for the new cartridge is the 9x19 liner, but with a long barrel, pereobzhatym to 6,5-mm. Naturally, the return of such a cartridge when shooting is very small, and the accuracy of automatic fire, as well as the accuracy of single shots, increases most significantly.


CBJ-MS with a set of devices: on the left - a silencer and a barrel, at the bottom - a bipod and a charger for filling the store, then a cartridge assembly for using a submachine gun inside combat vehicles, and 0 shops on 20, 30, and 100 cartridges.


On top of that, with this cartridge, this submachine gun has an impressive effective range, which is 300-400 meters for it, which is twice as high as the 9x19 cartridge. In addition, due to the high lateral load and small diameter of the bullet, it has a high flatness and penetration. At a distance of 230 meters, this bullet, for example, can easily pierce a CRISAT-type body armor, and at 50-meter distance an armor plate is 7-mm thick.

However, no wonder they say that there are spots on the sun. Everything is good, but due to the small caliber and high speed, the stopping effect of the bullets of this submachine gun approaches zero. Is that a bullet just hit the head! True, you can remake both the shop and the software itself, chambered for the caliber 9x19, and then “everything will return to normal”: the stopping effect will be high, but bullet-proof vests will be too tough for him!


CBJ-MS (top) and ST Kinetics (bottom)


Now let's take a look at the Singapore ST Kinetics submachine gun, first shown in 2008, for comparison. It was originally created under the 9 × 19 mm Parabellum cartridge, but the design allows the use of 5,7 × 28 mm cartridges and even 4,6 × 30 mm cartridges in it. It is enough to change the barrel, the bolt (and that is not all, but just a bot!) And the store.


This is how it looks. Immediately striking transparent back of the handle.


Initially, it was supposed to be a self-defense weapon for those servicemen who, according to the state, do not rely on an assault rifle. That is, this PP was created not for special units and the police, but for the army.

A semi-free type shutter has a lever-like braking like the Kiralee's gate, which seems to be supposed to reduce recoil when firing. All "digging" and levers "controls, respectively, the requirements of the time - bilateral, for both right-handed and left-handed. The Singaporean's cocking handle is also double-sided, except that the Swedish one is more original in design. There is a front handle, but Singapore engineers haven’t guessed to shove a spare shop into it. But they invented to make the back of the pistol grip transparent, which makes it possible to see the flow of ammunition, because the magazine to the submachine gun is also made transparent. The original decision, do not say anything! Butt more difficult than in the Swedish PP - it is retractable, telescopic. One Picatinny rail serves as an installation for a collimator sight, since there is no mechanical sight. The second bar is at the bottom, so the front grip is installed on it, although a laser pointer and a tactical flashlight can be installed, that is, the Singaporean has more opportunities here than the Swedish one.


And in his hand, he, too, is by no means small.


Among the shortcomings of “Kinetics”, experts note a too high rate of fire (900-1100 vsr / min.), That is, a high consumption of cartridges, often completely unnecessary. But on the other hand he has a relatively small weight, size and, together with a folded butt, he is easily transferred like a pistol in a special holster.

Thus, we see that today, in different parts of the world, which are very far apart from each other, very similar structures are being created. As, however, before. Attempts are being made to use new cartridges, but ... so far, they have never created a universal cartridge for quality. Attempts are being made to improve the accuracy of shooting, but, apparently, in the framework of traditional design everything has already been achieved. And if you use an unconventional approach? We will tell about it in the following material ...

To be continued ...
53 comments
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  1. +11
    16 June 2019 18: 10
    Thank you, Vyacheslav, for continuing to pamper us with goodies!

    drinks
    1. +2
      16 June 2019 18: 17
      God grant, God grant! We are not harmful people, almost all agree !!! lol
    2. +9
      16 June 2019 18: 18
      The series will end soon. I'm picking up the rest of the theme ... In fact, there is only one material left to write and one layout. But ... the workshop is temporarily closed. Therefore, it will be necessary either A - to explain on the fingers, or B - to wait for autumn, so that it was "clearly". Apparently, there will still be A ...
      1. +4
        17 June 2019 00: 45
        Thank you, Vyacheslav. hi
        But here in the third photo from the bottom you have a kind of "ochepyatka", under the Swede, not a Singaporean, but, it seems, an Austrian.
        And the fact that the series ends is very, very sorry. But, alas, all someday ... smile
      2. -1
        18 June 2019 15: 24
        I'll tell you this: This "Swede" was created after Britain abandoned this patron. Or even from the PP itself. The Swedes "picked up" the abandoned one ..
  2. +3
    16 June 2019 18: 20
    As a result, the original PP chambered for the 6.5x25 CBJ-MS cartridge appeared, which is also used in Glock pistols and HK MP5 submachine guns.


    Well, it’s not used regularly in Glocks, as well as the PM cartridge too. But if you replace the barrel and put the return spring corresponding to the cartridge energetics, then it can. On the IGB Austria they make MPovskie trunks for Glock. For your money - any whim. And the Parabellum barrels for TTs are also doing there.

    drinks
  3. +3
    16 June 2019 20: 53
    PP created mainly under the cartridge luger, or its derivatives. Interesting and I must say quite functional. The 9x19 parabellum cartridge is very good. But our / Soviet / TT 7,62x25 cartridge is also not bad. There was an article under the Czech cartridge 7,5 × 27 and a pistol under it. Well, the modernization potential of the TT cartridge I hope is great. No wonder they used it throughout the war. Why did you refuse? Is the stopping effect less? Well it’s clear, the caliber is less. What about the pros? Specialists enlighten.
    1. +2
      17 June 2019 00: 15
      They refused because the pistol is simpler and lighter under the Makarov cartridge (the pistol is still an auxiliary weapon and the experience of the Second World War showed that Makarov should be enough, and in the USSR there was a planned economy, and not like in America - each state orders its own weapons for the police and different branches of the army + lobbying). Plus, with the adoption of the AK armament, submachine guns as a weapon for the army were not considered, and even more so for the police. So the cartridge 7,62x25 was unnecessary.
    2. +2
      17 June 2019 00: 47
      With this to you to our Horse Dushelyubovich - he is a specialist and practitioner in this matter. hi
      1. +1
        17 June 2019 08: 53
        Thanks for your kind words!

        drinks
    3. +1
      17 June 2019 09: 02
      According to the experience of the Second World War, Soviet soldiers noted, yes, the low stopping effect of 7,62x25, which, like, is documented in reports from the front, but in my understanding it still has a somewhat emotional color, especially in the first years of the war, when "we shoot and shoot , and the Hans keep coming and going. " Hans, by the way, went on Amphetamine.

      After Stalingrad, they learned how to break the Hans, but the "sediment remained", which played in the well-known decision.

      But in the bottom line, the Soviet 7,62x25 got the Germans behind light obstacles, such as boards, much better than their 9x19 in a similar case.

      In modern conditions there is no point in raising old stocks of 7,62x25, since bullets with a lead core and rotten gunpowder. Repatriation does not make sense either. Making a new cartridge? Then it makes no sense to get attached to the old dimensions and can be done from scratch with a new bullet, cartridge case and gunpowder.

      Therefore, 7,62x25 died. Long live 7,62x25, but already as a veteran in the museum.
      1. 0
        17 June 2019 16: 56
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        Making a new cartridge? Then it makes no sense to get attached to the old dimensions and can be done from scratch with a new bullet, cartridge case and gunpowder.

        Here I disagree. New dimensions mean new equipment for production and its new development. And possible "new 7,62x25 mm" can be produced on existing equipment, with existing technologies, and save on this.
        1. 0
          17 June 2019 17: 03
          Yes, there is no longer this equipment, and the accuracy of the worn-out old one still did not fit the requirements of today.

          Only Czechs, former Yugoslavs and North Koreans with Vietnamese continue to produce cartridges in this caliber. The Italians in Fiocchi release two different versions for the Mausers 7,63 and for the TT 7,62.

          The power of Czech cartridges is excessive for old TTs and especially Mausers. The Czechs spin 7,62x25 according to their standard for their PP. They give more pressure in the barrel than standard for TT, which can lead to serious consequences for the shooter and irreparable for TT.

          By and large, the cartridge factory does not matter what range of cartridges to produce. There would be a demand.

          Getting attached to the old 7,62x25 only because he is nice to someone, as a memory, is not worth it.

          hi
          1. 0
            17 June 2019 22: 42
            Now the Czechs have made a better cartridge - 7,5x27 FC Brno
            Here it is already much closer to the ideal for MPE, because it works up to 300 m with confidence
            1. 0
              17 June 2019 22: 45
              Is he here?

              https://www.sellier-bellot.cz/en/products/pistol-and-revolver-ammunition/


              And here?

              http://www.municion.org


              Self-rolling ...
  4. +2
    17 June 2019 01: 24
    And if you use an unconventional approach? We will tell about it in the following material ... I'm in "excitement"! feel
    1. +2
      17 June 2019 05: 35
      This was already in the previous material. Bullet with wings ...
  5. +3
    17 June 2019 01: 54
    In fact, many weapons specialists cannot forget the "arrow-shaped striking (lethal) elements"! Moreover, if such a bullet-arrow is provided with a high speed, then it will have the following "positive qualities" ...: a) flat trajectory over a large part of the flight path; b) short flight time; c) high penetrating ability ... this, in general, it will provide high hitting accuracy "almost without aiming", good armor-piercing. But "there are spots in the sun" (!) ... there are also "disadvantages" of bullets-arrows, which have not yet been crossed out. Among others, there is almost no stopping effect. In the commentary, in the previous article, I "showed" an "inflatable" bullet. That is, a bullet can have a small diameter (caliber) and, at high speed, a considerable penetrating power ... but a small stopping effect! Therefore, in this case, a certain solution is proposed , in the implementation of which, the bullet, hitting the target, "inflates", increasing its diameter, thereby increasing the stopping effect. It is possible that such a solution can be transferred to arrow-shaped bullets or to bullets of the "Swedish" cartridge type ... In any case , "gunsmiths" did not throw out the "dream" of bullets-arrows. It is possible to create "intermediate" samples between bullets-arrows and small-caliber bullets of the "classic" type.
    1. +3
      17 June 2019 05: 21
      If a reverse sweep is used in the tail, the stopping effect will increase. In other matters, "hooks" can be used in a sub-caliber bullet. The main thing is that the "hooks" should not cut, but cling (like the "beard" of a fishing hook) and tear.
      1. +2
        17 June 2019 10: 23
        You argue correctly, comrade riwas! I was going to develop this topic in the previous comment, but did not have time ... I had to urgently "round off" ... It should be noted that if we are talking about a feathered bullet-arrow, then when flying out of the barrel, the plumage will be "half-open" .. .when hitting the target, the plumage opens completely and the feathers turn 90g. (ie, the "feather" does not penetrate the body with its edge, but "flat" ...). Moreover, the expanding "elements" can be an independent functional part, not a plumage! The plumage can be an optional part. This solution (drop-down elements ...) can also be used in small-caliber bullets without feathers fired from a rifled barrel. All this in order to increase the stopping effect of small-caliber bullets, both feathered (smooth-bore weapons) and for rifled weapons. The design of the bullets described will be more understandable if you look at the images of the tips of modern hunting arrows. Just take into account that the expanding elements will penetrate into the body not "edge-on", but "flat" ...
        1. +3
          17 June 2019 11: 07
          There is one caveat ... what works with an arrow for a bow or crossbow at a speed slightly higher than 100 m / s - will not work on a supersonic bullet-arrow at a speed of 2 ... 3 Max.

          It's just that the "wings-blades" will fly off when they hit a target covered with a bulletproof vest. Only the bullet-shaped part will fly inside. If only this miracle Yudo reaches the goal at all.

          All this fuss with swept bullets is a mind game. In reality, it’s worth thinking about how to make a small-caliber bullet with a speed of 1500 m / s and so that it does not grind the rifling to zero in a few hundred shots. But this topic is not about PP, but about completely automatic rifles.

          Even a small-caliber, ultra-high-speed bullet at 1500 m / s does terrible things even after breaking through a bulletproof vest. I read an article about 15 years ago, how they experimented with this in South Africa.
          1. +3
            17 June 2019 11: 32
            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            There is one caveat ... what works with an arrow for a bow or crossbow at a speed slightly higher than 100 m / s - will not work on a supersonic bullet-arrow at a speed of 2 ... 3 Max.

            It's just that the "wings-blades" will fly off when they hit a target covered with a bulletproof vest. Only the bullet-shaped part will fly inside. If only this miracle Yudo reaches the goal at all.

            1. Actually, I did not assure that these images are a ready-made solution for bullet-arrows, for example. This is just "food for thought"! 2. "wings" in flight of a bullet are in a "folded" state ... (and not open ...); 3. "wings" open after penetration into the body ... (and not earlier ...); 4. similar "wings" can be used in the design of small-caliber bullets for rifled (!) Weapons.
            1. +1
              17 June 2019 11: 54
              A supersonic 2 Mach plane flies at a speed of 660 meters per second and roars in the rear laughing jet engine burning a lot of fuel on afterburner. His wings are strong enough, since there is definitely more material there than in a hypothetical winged pool of a rifle caliber (passively) flying at a comparable speed.

              KMK, a winged supersonic bullet with mechanically expanding wings in the caliber of an ordinary bullet is not quite a real thing. In general, the KMK winged supersonic bullet is not a real thing, with the exception of swept elements, where a small plumage is used only to stabilize the flight. But they have already experimented with swept elements a lot and ... nothing. Used only in cluster munitions.

              drinks

              You need a completely ordinary, but (hyper) sound or (super-super) sound bullet when you find a means of stabilizing it in any way, so that the weapon does not become worthless after several hundred or thousands of shots. The resource of the weapon should be many tens of thousands of shots.
              1. 0
                18 June 2019 00: 37
                Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                a sound bullet when a means of stabilizing it is found in any way so that at the same time the weapon does not become useless after several hundred or thousands of shots.

                Well, you can try different means of stabilization ... Some "gunsmiths" again began to pay attention to polygonal barrels ... Spinning a bullet when flying out of the barrel using a built-in gas generator according to the principle of a "Segner wheel" or propellant charge gases (the same principle " Segner's wheel "...)
                Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                Resource weapons should be many tens of thousands of shots.

                Do you need such a resource? Will "eternal" soldiers appear and fight for years? Can't you solve the problem by quickly replacing the barrel?
                1. 0
                  22 June 2019 13: 24
                  Polygonal barrels have long been used not only "at the dawn of motor vehicles", but also in modern weapons. These are usually cold forged pistol barrels. Glock has one with six grooves for 9mm and eight grooves for .45

                  In the long barrel, polygonal trunks are less common. They are more expensive. In pistols, polygonal trunks can be an option when ordering (CHZ, Tanfoglio ...)

                  A polygonal barrel in pistols gives a small gain in bullet speed - less energy is spent on passing a round bullet through rifles. And the trunks are much, much more tenacious turn out. With Glock, the proven shot already 350 thousand from the same instance.

                  Do you need such a resource? Will "eternal" soldiers appear and fight for years? Can't you solve the problem by quickly replacing the barrel?


                  War is always a mess. The big war is a big mess. Modern nuclear total warfare is a total Armageddian.
                  Who will change the trunks there? Where from? Only that which is will shoot ... at the radioactive mutants 30 years after the exchange of nuclear strikes.

                  A piece of humor.

                  It’s cheaper to make more durable weapons than to rely on the dependable work of military logistics in case of war.

                  drinks
          2. +2
            17 June 2019 11: 52
            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            Even a small-caliber bullet for 1500 m / s creates terrible things, even behind a piercing vest.

            But here, too, not everything is "unambiguous"! The striking effect of "super-speed" bullets can "draw" different "pictures ... depends on: 1. the specific meaning of" super-speed "(as they say: all are equal, but some are more equal than others ...); 2. design of bullets; 3. conditions penetration (hit) of protection .. Pictures can be "terrible", but still different when hitting an unprotected body and protected by a bulletproof vest ... Even with a "through" penetration of the target (right through), a "super-fast" bullet will be such a hydrodynamic shock that , I think, it will not seem a little! And if the stopping effect of the "super-high-speed" bullet is increased through the design of the bullet? It's really scary to imagine here! There will be an "explosion" ...
            1. +1
              17 June 2019 13: 08
              Arrow-shaped small-pulse bullets have a limitation on weight and lateral dimension, complicating the design of the bullet without increasing the mass and diameter will lead to a large loss in armor penetration, also such complication of the bullet will lead to a serious increase in its price, which is unacceptable for ammunition for automatic weapons.
              1. 0
                17 June 2019 16: 10
                Judging by your comment, you inattentively read my posts ... you can read them more carefully ... And then I, and you mention "Fedot", but only "my Fedot" is not who you mean ....
              2. 0
                17 June 2019 16: 25
                ... and, in addition, an increase in the mass of the bullet will lead to the need to increase the propellant charge. The momentum will increase, the weight of the weapon will increase, and few will be able to shoot from it. Again in a circle ...
                1. 0
                  18 June 2019 00: 22
                  Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                  increasing the mass of the bullet will lead to the need to increase the propelling charge.

                  What about compromise and optimality? Why "mindlessly" increase ?! Yes, and you can think about the "options" ... there are also rocket-propelled grenade launchers, where the rocket engine of the ammunition burns out even in the "barrel", and after leaving the "barrel" the ammunition flies like an artillery projectile ... I don't "remember" a light gas weapon ...
                  1. 0
                    18 June 2019 00: 43
                    For the game of compromise, unfortunately, there are actually quite narrow boundaries. Why do you think small arms, as a weapon-cartridge complex, have not changed much since the end of the 19th century?

                    There is no breakthrough yet. Materials, propellant chemistry, metalworking - everything can give a breakthrough at some point, which will change the current course of things. There is nothing like that yet.

                    It was:
                    - a unitary cartridge - a brass sleeve with an igniter capsule, a propellant charge of gunpowder in it and a bullet hermetically sealing gunpowder. Breakthrough? Breakthrough.
                    - smokeless powder, supersonic pointed bullets smaller than bullets on smoky gunpowder caliber. Breakthrough? Breakthrough.
                    - intermediate cartridge for automatic weapons. Breakthrough? Breakthrough.
                    - small-caliber low-impulse cartridge for automatic weapons. Breakthrough? Breakthrough.
                    - collimator sight, as a standard option for each soldier on each machine. Breakthrough? Breakthrough.

                    There are no more inventions and innovations pulling for a breakthrough.
                    1. 0
                      18 June 2019 01: 06
                      But then there is the question of what to call a breakthrough ... there is a revolution and there is evolution ... It seems that some of the "positions" from the above can be called evolution ... hi
                      1. +1
                        18 June 2019 06: 35
                        So.

                        Why do you think small arms, as a weapon-cartridge complex, have not changed much since the end of the 19th century?
        2. +1
          17 June 2019 11: 12
          By the way, just for the sake of simplicity, after using such tips, you need to replace the cutting blades with them for the next hunt. Blades and a front bone tip are sold as consumables.

          Ethics, you know ...

          drinks
      2. +1
        17 June 2019 11: 14
        Only for supersonic bullets do completely different laws come into effect than for hunting arrows flying just over 100 meters per second.
    2. +1
      17 June 2019 08: 51
      Among others, the almost complete absence of stopping action.


      Animals, having received a hunting arrow with sharp opening blades on the tip, say (not the animals themselves, of course, but animal specialists), they don’t get shock, like from a bullet.

      It's like cutting yourself deep, but with a very sharp knife. The animal, having received an arrow, tries to escape and dies not from pain and shock, as such, but from the loss of blood. After all, the arrowhead cuts in diameter 1 ... 2 inches (about 5 centimeters). If you shoot at a place where there are many vital blood vessels, the animal dies away pretty quickly. But 200 meters will be able to run away completely, if not nerves.

      So the fact of the matter is that having received a through hole with a small arrow, even through important organs, the enemy soldier will not lose at the moment the ability to use his weapon.

      Arrow-shaped striking elements, especially cluster munitions, are most likely weapons of mass destruction, which are used from afar when the moment of the enemy’s soldier’s loss of ability to fight is not important.

      At close range (we are talking about PP, yes?), There is no stopping action for such arrows at all. It was like shaving with a straight razor and cutting yourself. With sad consequences, but not instant.

      Well, the wind blows any feathered arrows very strongly in the direction from which the wind blows.

      hi
      1. +2
        17 June 2019 11: 14
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        At close range (we are talking about PP, yes?), There is no stopping action for such arrows at all. It was like shaving with a straight razor and cutting yourself. With sad consequences, but not instant.

        Well, the wind blows any feathered arrows very strongly in the direction from which the wind blows.

        Actually, I dreamed a little about ammunition not only for PP, but also "vobche" ... feel I have already mentioned the absence (or small value ...) of the stopping action of bullets-arrows, and therefore I proposed a variant of the solution expressed by riwas'-y.
        About "drift by the wind" is also known and this is also a "minus", "interfering" with the adoption of bullets-arrows into service. But you can try various options: 1. making a bullet-arrow from a high-density material: tungsten, "heavy" cermets, depleted uranium .. (in any case, there were proposals for uranium ...); 2. we mean not arrows with a diameter ("caliber") of 1 mm, but larger "elements", for example, 3,2-4 mm in diameter ... (maybe even a little more ...); with the choice of the optimal length ... 3. the use of bullets-arrows in a "high-speed" weapon (if such a booze began, then in a "hypersonic" ... well, but what? It was written about a "hypersonic" cartridge!). Here, something like that ...
        1. +4
          17 June 2019 11: 20
          As an option to achieve a bullet speed of 1500 m / s? Well, why not?

          About 15 years ago I read an article how in South Africa they tried to disperse a 5,56 caliber NATO bullet to such a speed. She was monstrously effective at the target, but she ground the rifling to zero in a few hundred shots. They couldn’t do this

          And in the past, an article appeared that for small-caliber bullets they tried to push through a law restricting their maximum speed, either 1500 m / s, or 1300 m / s as an addition to the very Hague Convention prohibiting inhumane methods of warfare.
        2. +1
          17 June 2019 15: 45
          I would suggest such a construction. A "crown" with hooks is stamped separately. Then it is pressed onto the tail cylindrical part of the sub-caliber bullet. "Crown" with small hooks can serve as a stabilizer for firing a high-speed sub-caliber bullet from a smooth-bore barrel in order to eliminate wear on the rifling of the barrel. Bullet drift by the wind will be minimal.
          1. 0
            17 June 2019 16: 29
            It is best to, of course, accelerate in a magnetic field, if you manage to place a power station with a 10-year resource in ... the butt of a weapon.

            Fantastic!

            Damn it, YES !!!

            ;ABOUT)

            But what a nice thought!

            fellow
            1. +1
              17 June 2019 23: 57
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              It is best to, of course, accelerate in a magnetic field, if you manage to place a power station with a 10-year resource in ... the butt of a weapon.

              Fantastic!

              "A fairy tale is a lie, but there is a hint in it ... a lesson for good fellows!" wink If the Prussian king Frederick had been shown a Kalashnikov assault rifle against the background of a musket, he would definitely have exclaimed: "Das ist fantastish!" fellow This is not to mention the already appeared laser "guns" ... Yes, and crazy little hands are already working on manual railguns ...:
              CG-42 Jason Murray .. Yes
              1. +1
                18 June 2019 00: 00
                And if so: the children's (Sig!) Atomic constructor from the 1950s.

              2. 0
                18 June 2019 00: 02
                Or so (carefully, fake!)

          2. 0
            17 June 2019 16: 34
            Well, so the Swedes have a 4mm bullet in a 6.5 plastic pallet. And not just them. Properly selected plastic and do not need to do any miracles with the bullet itself.

            High rate of fire - to limit the cutoff of shots. A small stopping effect is to add a cutoff not to three, but to five rounds.

            You can invent tricks ... an invented system, or you can make it simpler, cheaper, and with the same end result.

            And what is the cheapest acceptable result? You will not believe...
            The cheapest thing is to do nothing new and continue to use 9x19.

            hi
            1. +2
              18 June 2019 00: 59
              Well ... again, a reason to praise the Swedes! Can they ... "if you want ice cream, if you want cake ..." They took and made a gun and a cartridge such that you want 9 x 19 mm, but you want 6,5 / 4 mm ...! But here the military gentlemen still complain about the insufficient stopping effect of the 4-mm bullet ... but if the "wings" are thumped? wink Cut-off shots as a solution to the problem of excessive rate of fire? Come on! good Cutoff on 5 shots to increase the stopping power of bullets? It turns out unnecessary consumption of ammunition! And the ammunition is not rubber! And it will turn out to be more expensive to fight! stop
              1. 0
                18 June 2019 06: 44
                How many times do you think American cops shoot the bad big black guy with their .45 ACP, .40 S&W and 9x19?

                Once or twice?

                No! Until he falls. Duc, at least get ...

                Overspending, and so it is. He is just huge. There are American statistics on how much cartridge was used up per one killed in World War II. EMNIP, hundreds of thousands - all by !!!

                The cheapest thing is to do nothing new and continue to use 9x19
                1. +1
                  18 June 2019 10: 58
                  Well, compared! lol The cops are not the army .. a single police disassembly is not an army battle and, moreover, not a war! And you probably shouldn't take an example from the Americans ... they print dollars! belay bully ...they do not care ! wink Now they are trying to translate all sorts of showdowns into "small conflicts", and in them significant importance is attached to "special forces", which are often forced to operate on the territory of the "opponent" ("enemy's rear" ...) with a limited supply of weapons, ammunition ...
                  1. 0
                    18 June 2019 11: 12
                    Cops are not an army.


                    But it makes no difference who you are — a cop or a soldier, if a hefty bad guy rushes at you with weapons. You’ll shoot until it falls.

                    Everyone wants to live.

                    laughing

                    considerable importance is attached to "spetsnaz", which is often forced to operate on the territory of the "opponent" ("behind enemy lines" ...) with a limited supply of weapons, ammunition ...


                    There are nuances, what a task. If reconnaissance is one thing, sabotage is another, and a major landing operation in the deep rear of the enemy is completely third.

                    If you have to use small arms during reconnaissance orerations, you are already discovered and have failed the mission. Especially it is impossible to shoot in a sabotage action, because the main goal is sabotage, not a shooting battle. Detected, shoot - failed the task.
                    Well, landing in the deep rear in a modern war against a strong enemy (not the Papuans) is most likely completely impossible from the word "absolutely".

                    hi
  6. +3
    17 June 2019 03: 39
    The Singaporean is equipped with a 30-meter safety cable, a winch and a lift (bottom photo), working from the shutter - you pull the trigger, and ... go up to the 10th floor or, securing it to a tree, pull the jammed jeep out of the mud wink The upper bar serves as a saw and also works on gases (two standard stores are enough to cut a tree with a diameter of up to 20 cm) lol
    Thanks for the review. By weight there is another question: how heavy are they?
  7. +2
    17 June 2019 05: 39
    Quote: Tlauicol
    how heavy are they?

    Swede - 2,8 without ammunition and the rest about it ...
    1. 0
      17 June 2019 22: 47
      The Swede is now hopelessly obsolete with its rear shutter
      And the idea itself is good
      But the Czechs have already made 7,5x27, which will be abruptly these
  8. 0
    18 June 2019 23: 32
    About CBJ-MC, in battle always pull the trigger to the end (reflex). About our army (Russia) - the staff clerk, captain, ensign from the clothing depot ... those who serve in the rear without leaving the unit - AKSU (Ksyusha). Those who are in the combat zones - AK (even for the PPS general). For pilots (airplanes, helicopters) - PBS (either shoot himself or, quietly, remove the first enemy they meet behind enemy lines). The best self-defense of a tanker is dowry infantry. soldier
  9. 0
    24 July 2019 12: 16
    I just can not get rid of the feeling that the Swede in the form of a receiver is well poured by ultrasound! Do not find?