Sneak Submersibles

207

Permeable environment and unmasking factors


The combat use of submarines and other underwater vehicles is based on their quality, such as the secrecy of actions for the attacked enemy. The aquatic environment, in the depth of which the PAs operate, limits the detection distance by means of radio and optical location of several tens of meters. On the other hand, the high speed of sound propagation in water, reaching 1,5 km / s, allows the use of noise-finding and echolocation. Water is also permeable to the magnetic component of electromagnetic radiation propagating at a speed of 300000 km / s.





Additional unmasking PA factors are:
- wake trace (air-water plume) generated by a propeller (propeller or jet) in the near-surface layer of water or in the deep layers in the event of cavitation on the propeller blades;
- chemical trace from the exhaust gases of the heat engine PA;
- thermal trace arising from the removal of heat of the power plant PA in the aquatic environment;
- the radiation trace left by the PA with nuclear power plants;
- surface wave formation associated with the movement of water masses during movement of the PA.

Optical location


Despite the limited detection distance, the optical location has found its application in the waters of tropical seas with high transparency of water in conditions of low waves and shallow depths. Optical locators in the form of high-resolution cameras operating in the infrared and visible bands are installed on board aircraft, helicopters and UAVs, complete with high-power searchlights and laser locators. The bandwidth reaches 500 meters, the depth of visibility in favorable conditions - 100 meters.



Radar is used to detect periscopes raised above the water surface, antennas, intake devices, and the air traffic controllers themselves in the surface position. The detection range using a radar installed on board an aircraft carrier is determined by the altitude of the carrier and ranges from several dozen (retractable PA devices) to several hundred (PA itself) kilometers. In the case of use in the sliding devices PA radio-transparent construction materials and stealth coatings detection range is reduced by more than an order.

Another method of radar detection of PA moving underwater is the fixation of co-wave formation on the sea surface generated in the process of hydrodynamic impact of the hull and propulsion PA on the water column. This process can be observed over a large area of ​​water from both aircraft and satellite radar carriers equipped with specialized hardware and software to highlight the weak terrain of a PA satellite wave against the background of interference from wind waves and wave formation from surface vessels and coastline. However, satellite waves become visible only when the PA moves at a shallow depth in calm weather conditions.

Sneak Submersibles


Additional unmasking factors in the form of wake, thermal, chemical and radiation trails are mainly used to pursue a PA for the purpose of covertly controlling its movement (without reaching the sonar line) or producing a torpedo attack from the feed exchange angles of the attacked PA. The relatively small width of the track, combined with the coursework maneuvering of the PA, forces the pursuer to move along a zigzag trajectory at a speed twice as high as the speed of the PA, which increases the detection distance of the pursuer itself due to the higher level of generated noise and exit from the shadowy feeding area of ​​the PA. In this regard, the movement on the trail is temporary in order to reach the distance of hydroacoustic contact with the PA, which allows, among other things, to qualify the target by the criterion of one’s own / alien and type of underwater vehicle.



Magnetometric method


An effective method for detecting PA is magnetometric, operating regardless of the state of the sea surface (waves, ice), the depth and hydrology of the water area, the bottom topography and the intensity of navigation. The use of diamagnetic construction materials in a PA design only allows to shorten the detection distance, since steel components and electrical products are necessarily included in the composition of the power plant, propulsion unit and PA equipment. In addition, the propeller, the water jet impeller and the PA hull (regardless of the structural material) in motion accumulate static electric charges on themselves that generate a secondary magnetic field.

Prospective magnetometers are equipped with SQUID superconducting sensors, cryogenic Dewar vessels for storing liquid nitrogen (modeled on Javelin ATGM), and compact refrigeration machines to maintain nitrogen in the liquid state.



Existing magnetometers have a detection range of a nuclear submarine with a steel hull at 1 km. Prospective magnetometers detect an NPS with a steel hull at a distance of 5 km. A submarine with a titanium hull - at a distance of 2,5 km. In addition to the hull material, the magnetic field strength is directly proportional to the displacement of the PA, therefore the small Poseidon submersible with a titanium hull has a 700 times smaller magnetic field than the Yasen nuclear submarine with a steel hull and, accordingly, a smaller detection range.

The main carriers of magnetometers are anti-submarine aircraft of the base aviation, to increase the sensitivity of the magnetometer sensors are located in the rear protrusion of the fuselage. In order to increase the depth of PA detection and expand the search band, anti-submarine aircraft fly at an altitude of 100 meters or less from the sea surface. Surface carriers use the towed version of magnetometers, underwater carriers use the onboard version with compensation for the carrier’s own magnetic field.

In addition to the limitation in range, the magnetometric method of detection also has a limitation by the speed of the PA — due to the absence of an intrinsic magnetic field gradient, stationary underwater objects are recognized only as anomalies of the Earth’s magnetic field and require subsequent classification using hydroacoustics. In the case of using magnetometers in the torpedo / anti-torpedo homing systems, there is no speed limit due to the inverse sequence of detection and classification of targets during a torpedo / anti-torpedo attack.



Sonar method


The most common method for detecting a PA is hydroacoustic, which includes passive direction finding of the intrinsic PA noise and active echolocation of the aquatic environment using directional emission of sound waves and reception of reflected signals. Hydroacoustics uses the entire range of sound waves - infrasonic vibrations with a frequency from 1 to 20 Hz, audible vibrations with a frequency from 20 Hz to 20 KHz and ultrasonic vibrations from 20 KHz to several hundred KHz.

Hydroacoustic transceivers include conformal, spherical, cylindrical, planar and linear antennas, assembled from a variety of hydrophones into three-dimensional assemblies, active phased arrays and antenna fields connected to specialized hardware and software devices that ensure listening to the noise field, generation of echolocation pulses and reception reflected signals. Antennas and hardware-software devices are combined in hydroacoustic stations (GUS).

Transceiver modules hydroacoustic antennas are made from the following materials:
- polycrystalline piezoceramics, mainly lead zirconate titanate, modified with strontium and barium additives;
- a piezoelectric film of fluoropolymer, modified with thiamine, which converts the polymer structure to the beta phase;
- fiber-laser interferometer with laser pumping.



Piezoceramics provides the highest power density of sound oscillations, so it is used in sonars with a spherical / cylindrical antenna of increased range in the mode of active radiation, installed in the nasal tip of marine carriers (at the greatest distance from the propulsion generating parasitic noise) or mounted in a capsule, lowered depth and towed behind the carrier.

Piezofluoropolymer film with a low power density of generation of sound vibrations is used to manufacture conformal antennas located directly on the surface of a body of surface and underwater vehicles of single curvature (to ensure isotropic hydroacoustic characteristics) that work to receive all types of signals or to transmit signals of low power.



The fiber-optic interferometer works only on receiving signals and consists of two fibers, one of which experiences compression-expansion under the action of sound waves, and the other serves as a reference medium for measuring the interference of laser radiation in both fibers. Due to the small diameter of the optical fiber, its compression-expansion oscillations do not distort the diffraction front of sound waves (unlike the piezoelectric hydrophones of large linear dimensions) and allow for a more accurate determination of the position of objects in the aquatic environment. Flexible towed antennas and bottom linear antennas up to 1 km long are formed of fiber-optic modules.

Piezoceramics are also used in hydrophone sensors, spatial assemblies of which are part of floating buoys discharged into the sea from anti-submarine aircraft, after which hydrophones are lowered onto the cable to a predetermined depth and transferred to noise-finding mode with transmission of the collected information via radio to the aircraft. To increase the area of ​​the controlled water area, along with floating buoys, a series of deep grenades are dumped, the explosions of which hydroacoustically illuminate underwater objects. In the case of the use of antisubmarine helicopters or quadrocopters to search for underwater objects, a receiving-transmitting antenna of the onboard HAC, which is a matrix of piezoceramic elements, is lowered onto the cable-tether.



Conformal antennas from a piezofluoropolymer film are mounted in the form of several sections spaced along the PA side to determine not only the azimuth but also the distance (by the method of trigonometry) to the underwater noise source or the reflected location signals.

The flexible towed and bottom linear antennas made of optical fiber, despite their relative cheapness, have a negative operational property - due to the large length of the antenna “string”, it undergoes bending and torsional vibrations under the influence of the incoming flow of water, thus deteriorating multiple times compared to piezoceramic and piezofluoropolymer antennas with rigid web. In this regard, the most accurate sonar antennas are made in the form of a set of reels wound from optical fiber and mounted on spatial farms inside acoustically transparent water-filled cylindrical shells protecting antennas from external influence of water flows. The shells are rigidly attached to the foundations located at the bottom and connected by power cables and lines of communication with the coastal centers of anti-submarine defense. If radioisotope thermoelectric generators are also placed inside the shells, the devices obtained (autonomous by power supply) are transferred to the discharge of bottom sonar stations.



Modern GUS review of the underwater situation, search and classification of underwater objects work in the lower part of the audio range - from 1 Hz to 5 KHz. They are mounted on various sea and air carriers, are part of the floating buoys and bottom stations, differ in a variety of forms and piezoelectric materials, their place of installation, power and reception / emission mode. GAS search for mines, counteraction to underwater saboteurs and scuba divers and providing sound underwater communications work in the ultrasonic range at frequencies above 20 KHz, including the so-called sound-vision mode with detailing objects on the scale of several centimeters. A typical example of such devices is GAS "Amphora", a spherical polymer antenna of which is installed on the front upper tip of the submarine felling fencing

In the case of the presence on board of a mobile carrier or as part of a stationary system of several HAS, they are combined into a single sonar complex (GAK) by means of joint computational processing of active location data and passive direction finding. The processing algorithms provide for software detuning from noise generated by the carrier itself and external noise background generated by maritime navigation, wind waves, multiple reflections of sound from the water surface and the bottom in shallow water (reverberation noise).

Computational Algorithms


The algorithms for computational processing of noise signals received from PAs are based on the principle of extracting cyclically repeated noise from rotation of propeller blades, operation of electric motor current collector brushes, resonant noise from propeller gearboxes, vibration from steam turbines, pumps and other mechanical equipment. In addition, the use of a database of noise spectra characteristic of a particular type of objects allows us to qualify targets for the characteristics of your own / alien, underwater / surface, military / civilian, shock / multipurpose submarine, onboard / towed / lowered GUS, etc. In the case of preliminary compilation of the spectral sound "portraits" of individual PAs, it is possible to carry out their identification according to the individual features of the operation of the onboard mechanisms.

Detection of cyclically repetitive noise and the construction of traces of movement of the PA requires the accumulation of sonar information for tens of minutes, which greatly slows down the detection and classification of underwater objects. Much more unambiguous distinctive features of the PA are sounds of water getting into ballast tanks and blowing them with compressed air, torpedoes coming out of torpedo tubes and underwater missile launches, and also operating the sonar of the enemy in the active mode, detected by receiving a direct signal at a distance multiple of a distance than reception of the reflected signal.



In addition to the power of location radiation, the sensitivity of receiving antennas and the degree of perfection of the algorithms for processing the information received, the characteristics of the HAS are significantly influenced by underwater hydrological conditions, water depth, sea surface agitation, ice cover, bottom relief, presence of noise interference from maritime navigation, sand suspension, floating biomass and other factors.

The hydrological setting is determined by the differentiation of temperature and salinity of the horizontal layers of water, resulting in different densities. At the boundary between the layers of water (the so-called thermocline), sound waves experience full or partial reflection, shielding the PA from above or below the positioned search gas. Layers in the water column are formed in the depth range from 100 to 600 meters and change their location depending on the season of the year. The bottom layer of water, stagnating in the recesses of the seabed, forms the so-called liquid bottom, which is impenetrable to sound waves (except for infrasound). On the contrary, in the layer of water of the same density, an acoustic channel arises, through which sound vibrations in the middle frequency range extend to a distance of several thousand kilometers.



These features of the propagation of sound waves under water have determined the choice of infrasound and the low frequencies adjacent to it to 1 KHz as the main working range of HAS for surface ships, submarines and bottom stations.

On the other hand, the secrecy of the PA depends on the design decisions of their onboard mechanisms, engines, propulsion, layout and coating of the hull, as well as the speed of the underwater course.

The most optimal engine


Reducing the noise level of the PA in the first place depends on the power, number and type of propulsion. Power is proportional to the displacement and the speed of the PA. Modern submarines are equipped with a single water cannon, the acoustic radiation of which is shielded from the nasal heading angles by the submarine body, from the side heading corners - by the water jet housing. The area of ​​audibility is limited to narrow aft course angles. The second most important layout solution aimed at reducing the intrinsic noise of the PA is the use of a cigar-shaped body with an optimal degree of elongation (8 units for speed ~ 30 nodes) without superstructures and surface protrusions (except for cutting) with minimal turbulence.

The most optimal engine in terms of minimizing the noise of a non-nuclear submarine is a direct-drive propeller / water jet direct-drive electric motor, since the AC electric motor generates noise with a frequency of current in the circuit (50 Hz for domestic submarines and 60 Hz for American submarines). The specific weight of the low-speed electric motor is too large to provide a direct drive at maximum speed, therefore, in this mode, the torque must be transmitted through a multi-stage gearbox that generates a characteristic cyclic noise. In this regard, the low-noise mode of full electromotive motion is realized when the gearbox is turned off with a limitation on the power of the electric motor and the travel speed of the PA (at the level of 5-10 nodes).

Submarines have their own characteristics for the implementation of the full electric propulsion mode - in addition to the noise of the gearbox at low speed, it is also necessary to exclude noise from the circulating pump of the reactor coolant, the pump for pumping turbine working fluid and the seawater feed pump to cool the working fluid. The first task is solved by transferring the reactor to the natural circulation of the coolant or using a liquid metal coolant with an MHD pump, the second task is through the use of the working fluid in the supercritical state of aggregation and a single-rotor turbine / compressor of a closed cycle, the third by using the pressure of the incident flow of water.



The noise generated by the onboard mechanisms is minimized through the use of active shock absorbers that work in antiphase with oscillations of the mechanisms. However, the initial success achieved in this direction at the end of the last century had serious limitations for its development for two reasons:
- the presence of large resonator air volumes inside the hulls of submarines to ensure the life of the crew;
- placement of on-board mechanisms in several specialized compartments (residential, command, reactor, machine), which does not allow aggregating mechanisms on a single frame in contact with the submarine hull at a limited number of points through jointly controlled active shock absorbers to eliminate common-mode noise.

This problem is solved only by switching to small-sized unmanned underwater vehicles without internal air volumes with aggregation of power and auxiliary equipment on a single frame.

In addition to reducing the intensity of the generation of the noise field, constructive solutions should reduce the probability of PA detection using the echolocation radiation of the HAS.

Counteraction to hydroacoustic means


Historically, the first way to counteract active sonar search tools was to apply a thick rubber coating on the surface of a submarine hull, first used on the Kriegsmarine “electric robots” at the end of the Second World War. The elastic coating largely absorbed the energy of the sound waves of the location signal, and therefore the power of the reflected signal was insufficient to detect and classify the submarine. After adopting a nuclear submarine with an immersion depth of several hundred meters, the fact of compression of a rubber coating by water pressure with the loss of energy absorption properties of sound waves was revealed. The introduction of various fillers into the rubber coating, which dissipate sound (modeled on the ferromagnetic coating of airplanes, which scatter radio emission) partially eliminated this defect. However, the expansion of the range of working frequencies of the gas into the area of ​​infrasound has drawn a line under the possibilities of using an absorbing / dissipating coating as such.

The second way to counteract the active hydroacoustic search tools is a thin layer active coating of the body, generating oscillations in antiphase with the echlotational signal of GUS in a wide frequency range. At the same time, such a coating, at no additional cost, solves the second problem - reducing the residual acoustic field of the PA's own noise to zero. A piezoelectric fluoropolymer film is used as a thin-layer coating material, the use of which has been tested as the basis of HAS antennas. At the moment, the limiting factor is the price of coating a submarine hull with a large surface area, so the primary targets for its use are uninhabited underwater vehicles.



The last known method of countering active sonar search tools is to reduce the size of the PA to reduce the so-called. target forces - effective surface dispersion of the sonar echolocation signal. The possibility of using more compact PAs is based on a revision of the nomenclature of armaments and a reduction in the number of crews up to the complete uninhabitation of the vehicles. In the latter case, and as a guideline, the crew size in 13 people of a modern container ship Emma Mærsk with a displacement of 170 thousand tons can serve.

As a result, the strength of the target can be reduced by one to two orders of magnitude. A good example is the direction of improving the underwater fleet:
- implementation of the projects “Status-6” (“Poseidon”) and XLUUVS (Orca);
- development of projects of the submarine “Laika” and SSN-X with medium-range cruise missiles on board;
- development of advance projects of bionic NLA equipped with conformal jet propulsion with thrust vector control.

Tactics of anti-submarine defense


The level of stealth of underwater vehicles is greatly influenced by the tactics of using anti-submarine defenses and counter-tactics of PA.



The means of PLO primarily include stationary systems for the review of underwater conditions such as the American SOSUS, which includes the following lines of defense:
- Cape North Cape of the Scandinavian Peninsula - Bear Island in the Barents Sea;
- Greenland - Iceland - Faroe Islands - British Isles in the North Sea;
- Atlantic and Pacific coasts of North America;
- Hawaiian Islands and the island of Guam in the Pacific.

The detection range of fourth-generation submarines in deep-water areas outside the convergence zone is of the order of 500, in shallow waters - of the order of 100 km.

During the movement under water, the PA is forced from time to time to adjust its actual depth of travel in relation to the given one due to the pushing nature of the propulsion effect on the hull of the underwater vehicle. The resulting vertical oscillations of the body generate so-called. surface gravitational wave (PGW), whose length reaches several tens of kilometers at a frequency of several hertz. The PRT in turn modulates the low-frequency sonar noise (the so-called backlight) generated in areas of intensive maritime navigation or the passage of a storm front located thousands of kilometers from the location of the PA. In this case, the maximum detection range of a submarine moving at cruising speed with the help of FOSS increases to 1000 km.

The accuracy of determining the coordinates of targets using FOSS at maximum range is an ellipse of 90 size by 200 km, which requires additional exploration of remote targets by forces of anti-submarine basic aircraft equipped with onboard magnetometers dropped by sonar buoys and aircraft torpedoes. The accuracy of determining the coordinates of targets within 100 km from the anti-submarine line FOSS is quite sufficient for the use of rocket-torpedoes of the appropriate coastal and ship-based range.



Surface anti-submarine ships, equipped with submarine, lowered, and towed GAS antennas, have a detection range of fourth-generation submarines that are traveling at 5-10 nodes, no more than 25 km. The presence on board ships of deck helicopters with lowered antenna GAS extends the detection distance to 50 km. However, the use of shipboard power systems is limited by the speed of the ships, which should not exceed 10 nodes due to the occurrence of anisotropic flow around the hook antenna and the break of the cable-cables of lowered and towed antennas. The same applies to the case of sea excitement with a force of more than 6 points, which also forces us to abandon the use of deck helicopters with a lowered antenna.

An effective tactical scheme for providing anti-submarine defense of surface ships going at an economic speed of 18 knots or under 6-point wave conditions of the sea is the formation of a ship group with the inclusion of a specialized underwater lighting equipment equipped with a powerful pitcher. Otherwise, surface ships should retreat under the protection of coastal FOSS and basic anti-submarine aviation, not dependent on weather conditions.

A less effective tactical scheme for providing anti-submarine defense of surface ships is the inclusion of a submarine ship group, whose onboard GAS operation does not depend on the sea surface agitation and its own speed (within 20 knots). In this case, the GAS of the submarine must operate in the mode of noise-finding due to the multiple exceeding the distance of the detection of the echolocation signal over the distance of reception of the reflected signal. According to foreign press data, the detection range of a fourth-generation nuclear submarine under these conditions is of the order of 25 km, the detection range of a non-nuclear submarine is 5 km.



The counter-use of strike submarines includes the following ways to increase their secrecy:
- distance gap between themselves and the target by an amount exceeding the range of the action of GAS FOSS, surface ships and submarines participating in the anti-submarine defense, using the appropriate weapons;
- overcoming the lines of FOSS with the help of passage under the keel of surface ships and ships for the subsequent free operation in the water area, which is not illuminated by enemy hydroacoustic facilities;
- use of features of hydrology, bottom topography, shipping noise, sonar shadow of sunken objects and the submarine's lining on liquid soil.

The first method assumes the presence of an external (generally satellite) target designation or an attack of a stationary target with known coordinates, the second method is acceptable only before the onset of a military conflict, the third method is implemented within the working depth of the submarine and its equipment with an upper water intake system for cooling the power plant or heat removal directly to the PA casing.

Estimation of the level of hydroacoustic secrecy


In conclusion, it is possible to assess the level of the hydroacoustic secrecy of the strategic Poseidon strategic nuclear weapon in relation to the secrecy of the ash submarine Yasen:
- The surface area of ​​the ABO 40 times less;
- the power of the NPA power unit is 5 less;
- the working depth of the submersion of the NLA in 3 times.
- fluoroplastic coating of the housing against the rubber coating;
- aggregation of NLA mechanisms on a single frame against spacing of NPS mechanisms in individual compartments;
- full electric movement of the ABO at low speed with the shutdown of all types of pumps against the full electric movement of submarines at low speed without turning off the pumps pumping condensate and water intake to cool the working fluid.

As a result, the detection distance of the Poseidon NLA moving at a speed of 10 nodes using modern GUS installed on any type of carrier and operating in the entire range of sound waves in the direction-finding and echolocation modes will be less than 1 km, which is obviously not enough not only to prevent attacks on a stationary coastal target (taking into account the radius of destruction by a shock wave from an explosion of a special LBU), but also to protect the carrier-based strike force as it travels into the waters, the depth of which exceeds 1 km.
  • Andrey Vasilyev
  • roe.ru, wiki.wargaming.net, www.popmech.ru, www.quora.com, www.slideshare.net
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  1. The comment was deleted.
  2. 0
    6 June 2019 21: 09
    The specific gravity of the low-speed electric motor is too large to provide direct drive at maximum speed, therefore, in this mode, the torque must be transmitted through a multi-stage gearbox that generates characteristic cyclic noise.

    Use the variator? Or the transmitted power will not work? what
    1. +6
      6 June 2019 21: 19
      Any mechanical device (gearbox, variator, etc.) between the electric motor and the propeller / propeller of the jet engine generates additional noise, infection.
      1. +4
        6 June 2019 21: 26
        Quote: Operator
        Any mechanical device (gearbox, variator, etc.) between the electric motor and the propeller / propeller of the jet engine generates additional noise, infection.

        But there is no gearing in the variator. Therefore, we can expect that the noise will be much less from it.
        1. +9
          6 June 2019 21: 33
          That's right - less, but it will still be.

          In addition, the power level transmitted through the V-belt variator is limited at a level of several hundred kilowatts (due to belt slippage), and the power of the submarine propulsion motor is measured in thousands of kilowatts, even at slow speed.
          1. +1
            6 June 2019 23: 03
            hi
            It became interesting, you wrote the article yourself, or copied / transferred from somewhere?
            1. +5
              6 June 2019 23: 10
              In the right corner of the VO portal page there are icons for automatic translation of the text of articles into foreign languages.

              Copy any paragraph of the article (in Russian, English, German, Spanish or Chinese) into the Yandex search line or Google and get an answer to your question.
              1. 0
                6 June 2019 23: 30
                A quick search gives out all the trash, probably your authorship.
                How did you do it? That's serious
                1. +10
                  6 June 2019 23: 52
                  Thanks to my parents - instilled a taste for self-study questions.
                  1. +6
                    6 June 2019 23: 56
                    Then my respect to you, for a very long time already on this site there were no such intelligible and sensible educational programs.
                    It's just that the article itself contrasts so much with your usual "worldview" that you don't even immediately believe in the authorship, for which I apologize.
                    1. +5
                      7 June 2019 00: 20
                      The fact is that a person known as Andrei -Operator does not write this all by himself, and does not comment on articles about Poseidon himself either.
                      This is done by people working on the PR of this poor but very expensive program, and Andryusha just provided them with the password for the account, apparently not for free.
                      Therefore, the style is different in the comments of Andryusha and this one.
                      But I can show with whom this style is the same.
                      For example.
                      http://www.balancer.ru/g/p7286721

                      In general, this team is full of virtuals and at a certain point they naturally spammed themed communities with a good-looking information trash like this article.
                      1. +4
                        7 June 2019 00: 52
                        Followed the link, so what? How does this fit with your words? There is nothing in common except the topic of the Premier League.
                      2. +1
                        7 June 2019 01: 33
                        You just do not follow what is written from under the account of Andryusha and do not compare it with what is being done on other platforms.
                        And there is not about the submarine.
                      3. +2
                        7 June 2019 16: 18
                        Do you seriously believe that people sawing billions in budgets will buy accounts of the unknown Andryukh in order to counter the not much more famous Sankam?
                      4. +4
                        8 June 2019 14: 37
                        Quote: MooH
                        Do you seriously believe that people sawing billions in budgets will buy accounts of the unknown Andryukh in order to counter the not much more famous Sankam?

                        Monsieur, for a start, I will note that Timokhin's work enjoys great attention - both among the military (especially the article on managing the Navy) and in the defense industry, and by no means "ordinary people"
                        but about "purchased accounts" - yes, they use
                        and pretty wide
                        and with this scam ("Status-6") the situation is extremely simple - there is a serious strain on money in the country, and so on. questions of spending them on crap arise
                      5. 0
                        8 June 2019 15: 14
                        Well, admittance, Mr. Timokhin is widely known in the narrow circles of the military-industrial complex and the Navy, but what will the publication of an article from the Operator, known exclusively to regular visitors of the Military Organization, give a flattering review of Poseidon? Do you think GDP and DAM will read it? Hardly. Opponents will be called to the show Let them talk? Hardly.
                        Too many troubles for a serious person -Write an article, buy an account, then respond in the comments. The question is not even in money, but in the time of a hypothetical con man - a sawyer of billions. If, instead of the main work, network srach is dealt with, there will be no time to saw it ;-)
                      6. -2
                        10 June 2019 12: 30
                        You will follow the PR of this project in recent months. Tam or Andryushi operators, or Sivkov laughing
                      7. +1
                        10 June 2019 13: 26
                        I still understand how to charter Sivkov, which is no, but the value for a serious business is inexpensive. But VO accounts are like interfering in American elections through Facebook. It is difficult and useless.
                      8. -1
                        10 June 2019 13: 31
                        How do you think public opinion is formed? On VO absolutely record by any measure the number of views, for example, for example, even in the "Independent Military Review" articles came out, I can compare.

                        So on the contrary, VO accounts are quite a "theme". Do not think that this is a frivolous resource, its impact on public opinion is enormous.

                        And a wave of similar articles and posts in blogs, on Zen, in "Vzglyad", on "VO" and in dozens of other places, including forums, and forms people's opinions.
                      9. +2
                        10 June 2019 14: 07
                        In no case do not consider VO frivolous. I know that they read both in the Duma and even sometimes in the government. But not at the level of srach in the comments, but at the level of resonant articles.
                        If we talk about a specific topic "Poseidon", then the project is secret and decisions on it are made without taking into account public opinion.
                        The only option in which public opinion can play a role is if you are right and the project is 100% incompetent. In this case, the scam will open faster and the lawyer's accounts on VO will not help.
                        But something, I doubt that such a stickiness as you describe and your like-minded people can be pushed so far. It’s one thing to finance dubious R&D at a child prodigy, and a completely different large-scale production of an unusable apparatus with a change in a substantial part of the state’s nuclear doctrine. Such a project could not fail to undergo serious examinations, where you can’t buy everyone, and half of the commission are opponents of the project. Already there the fatal flaws described by you would definitely come out, such as the absence of a HACK and a low-noise mode.
                      10. +1
                        10 June 2019 14: 16
                        Well, there is a nuance - the topic is being sawn by people from the Ministry of Defense, who are responsible for torpedoes, and in torpedo affairs, the parties to the party instead of the real tests have long been the norm. Comrades could well play.
                      11. 0
                        10 June 2019 15: 25
                        Here I have nothing to object to. I am absolutely not competent in the development and testing of torpedo weapons. Probably could play too much. Times are now herbivores, they won’t shoot for sure. In the worst case, they will retire.
                        But still somehow I can’t believe it. It’s a very large-scale and roughly cobbled together scam.
                        I have already expressed my opinion, just in case I will repeat. In my opinion, it is more likely that you became a victim of a disinformation campaign of an obscure nature. Maybe new technologies of classification are being tested - informational noise instead of silence, maybe Poseidon - a cover for a more interesting development.
                        Although in modern times one cannot be sure of anything, everybody lies ;-)
                  2. 0
                    12 June 2019 18: 57
                    Quote: Operator
                    Thanks to my parents - instilled a taste for self-study questions.

                    wassat
                    Andryusha, as you have a very simple question - what kind of submarines of the 1st generation could dive into "your" PZK in your opus? laughing
              2. +2
                8 June 2019 14: 33
                Quote: Operator
                Copy any paragraph of the article (in Russian, English, German, Spanish or Chinese) into the Yandex search line or Google and get an answer to your question.

                fool
                Andryusha, you are not a pretend girl laughing
            2. +4
              8 June 2019 14: 32
              Quote: Corn
              It became interesting, you wrote the article yourself, or copied / transferred from somewhere?

              I wrote not Andryusha, and it is obvious
              but this article is just as stupid and CUSTOMIZED as the previous one from "Andryusha and Co."
              however, in the comments to the previous one (and mine on "Poseidon") everything has already been said
        2. -1
          7 June 2019 10: 52
          As an option, non-contact methods, like MHD propulsion, which limits the speed of the PA, but makes it perfectly invisible.
          1. 0
            7 June 2019 12: 05
            Quote: goose
            As an option, non-contact methods, like MHD propulsion, which limits the speed of the PA, but makes it perfectly invisible.

            There, not only do you need to transmit torque, you also need to change the number of revolutions relative to the propeller engine itself (diesel, sinclair, electric), hence the desire to have an intermediate link such as a gearbox, which rattles. Of course, there are also special types of engagement between the wheels, but they still "rattle" and acoustically unmask the submarine. sad
            1. -1
              7 June 2019 15: 20
              Quote: K-50
              Not only does it need to transmit torque, it is also necessary to change the speed relative to the propeller itself

              You can gash the ion engine. The experimental yacht travels at a speed of 4 knots. An underwater vehicle at great depths can 2 times faster. Absolutely no friction. Absolute silence.
              1. +1
                8 June 2019 00: 38
                And a bunch of explosive gas bubbles in the wake! IT decomposes seawater!
                1. 0
                  10 June 2019 09: 13
                  Quote: 113262
                  And a bunch of explosive gas bubbles in the wake!

                  Where are the bubbles from? The ionization energy of a water molecule is tens, if not hundreds of times less than the energy of hydrolysis. In this engine, only the noise of the friction of water is heard, because the flow rate is greater than the total speed of the vessel. But this noise is not heard at the speeds that the ion engine is capable of. 10 knots is its practical limit (adjusted for the energy of the ship), and rarely achievable. Usually it is 2-6 knots.
        3. 0
          8 June 2019 00: 36
          In any variator there is slippage. It sounds! In a chain-rattling chain.
    2. +2
      8 June 2019 14: 29
      Quote: K-50
      Use the variator? Or the transmitted power will not work?

      You are not asking those wink
      The problem is that those who are able to answer the topic could even utter a word of fear on this topic (because they were specifically warned) and, therefore, they recruit very stupid performers who, while performing the ORDER, are not even able to google
  3. +3
    6 June 2019 21: 17
    Great article. Full layout of submarine submarine warfare angry
    1. +4
      6 June 2019 23: 19
      Not great
      About the discovery of residual infrasound underwater hydrophones had to be mentioned, but the PLA detection range was underestimated due to the lack of knowledge of the subject.
      Example
      https://my.nps.edu/documents/103449515/0/HOWARDAPR2011.pdf/1219db41-a727-4940-ab0b-b953c54f6e01
      The US service panel notch for residual infrasound from 4900 km, and ours from 6980 km.
      This is what the real world looks like.
      And with SOSUS, there are also a few SGARs, there are FOPs that are quickly deployable anywhere.
      Wave effects on the surface of the water are much more diverse than what is written in the article.
      It is possible to "view" the water column visually with an X-ray laser at a depth of 500-600 m.

      And in full electromotive movement under water, neither we nor the Americans really know how.
      And Poseidon does not have a running electric motor.

      This:

      In conclusion, it is possible to assess the level of the hydroacoustic secrecy of the strategic Poseidon strategic nuclear weapon in relation to the secrecy of the ash submarine Yasen:
      - The surface area of ​​the ABO 40 times less;
      - the power of the NPA power unit is 5 less;
      - the working depth of the submersion of the NLA in 3 times.
      - fluoroplastic coating of the housing against the rubber coating;
      - aggregation of NLA mechanisms on a single frame against spacing of NPS mechanisms in individual compartments;
      - full electric movement of the ABO at low speed with the shutdown of all types of pumps against the full electric movement of submarines at low speed without turning off the pumps pumping condensate and water intake to cool the working fluid.


      Direct and illiterate lie.
      No.
      1. +4
        6 June 2019 23: 47
        In this document https://my.nps.edu/documents/103449515/0/HOWARDAPR2011.pdf/1219db41-a727-4940-ab0b-b953c54f6e01 there is nothing about "Survey of US submarines by residual infrasound from 4900 km, and ours from 6980 km. "
        1. +3
          7 June 2019 00: 04
          The humanist timokhin-aa is famous for claiming in his blue eye that SOSUS found Soviet nuclear-powered submarines in the Barents Sea in the Caribbean - along the s-shaped sound propagation path laughing

          Now timokhin-aa has made another epoch-making discovery: X-ray radiation penetrates 0,5 km into the aquatic environment - despite the fact that X-rays from a nuclear explosion in the air go out on the first hundred meters laughing
          1. -3
            7 June 2019 00: 55
            Not cringe, Kiso. You read in English, follow the link.
            And about the laser
            https://russian.rt.com/inotv/2018-10-05/CM-kosmicheskij-lazer-Kitaya-obnaruzhit

            Picture familiar?

            By the way, are you guys going to do when trials fail? GDP demanded that he show the results.

            Can and little heads fly))))
            1. +4
              7 June 2019 20: 36
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              ... By the way, you guys are going to do
              when will the test fail?
              GDP demanded that the results be shown to him.
              Can and little heads fly))))


              Could fly under I. Stalin - now other times, for example
              M. Poghosyan did not fly away ...
              And the discovery of new deposits are not expected.

              Jokes about Stalin
              During the war, Stalin instructed Baibakov to open new oil fields.
              When Baibakov objected that this was impossible, Stalin replied:
              "There will be oil - there will be Baibakov, there will be no oil - there will be no Baibakov!"
              Soon deposits were discovered in Tatarstan and Bashkiria.
        2. 0
          7 June 2019 00: 25
          There are places from which led the PLA. Measure on the map.

          The most noted example of
          this involved USS GEORGE WASHINGTON (SSBN-598) as she
          transited for one of her first deterrent patrols in 1961. East coast
          SOSUS stations tracked
          Atlantic Ocean to the United Kingdom. Another first in long
          distance detection was achieved in 1962, when the SOSUS station
          in Barbados detected a Soviet Hotel / Echo / November (HEN) -class
          submarine as it passed through the Greenland-Iceland-United
          Kingdom (GIUK) gap.
          1. +6
            7 June 2019 01: 22
            Timokhin You stated about the submarine notches for "residual infrasound"
            1) In your article, there is no residual infrasound.
            2) The capabilities of Sosus to accompany the US submarine in 1961 to the possibilities of notching modern submarines differ catastrophically, which, by the way, is directly written in the article.
            3) How do you generally think that distance?
            Sosus deployed on anti-submarine lines:
            - Cape Nordkapp - Bear Island,
            - Greenland - Iceland - Faroe Islands - United Kingdom (Faroe-Icelandic border)
            -Pacific Ocean
            The detection of a Soviet submarine when passing through one of the borders (Faroe-Icelandic border) does not provide a detection range of 6980 km. So we can agree that the Bear Lake tracking station in the Moscow region has a range of 20000 km, but in fact the satellites are much closer, and the station only receives the signal.
            1. -1
              7 June 2019 01: 30
              I gave you a quote from the document

              distance detection was achieved in 1962, when the SOSUS station
              in Barbados detected a Soviet Hotel / Echo / November (HEN) -class
              submarine as it passed through the Greenland-Iceland-United
              Kingdom (GIUK) gap


              You can not understand what you read? This is your problem, not mine.
              PZK described in the article does not hear the audible range of sound, at such ranges it is impossible, if that.
              1. +3
                7 June 2019 01: 58
                1) Is 1962 now in the yard?
                2) Where in the article about the "residual infrasound"? You are using a specific term that is NOT in the article. It’s not my bad reading, you’re lying.
                3) Where is the article 6980km? If anything, from Barbados to Faroe 6800 km.
                At the same time, as I have already said, the hydrophone lines of the SOSUS are located exactly at the "Greenland-Iceland-United Kingdom (GIUK) gap" and do not smell of any 6900 km there.
                1. 0
                  7 June 2019 10: 28
                  And what's the difference what year it is? The sound in a range heard by a person at such distances will not come across any slam-shut valve, it’s about the low frequency range, and it is generated not only by the vibrations of the mechanisms and the submarine body, but also by the displacement of water masses.

                  In addition, your favorite Poseidon just goes deep and noisy (in the real world, and not in wet dreams and false stuffing), everything is like in the old days.

                  Adjusted for the fact that it will not be on the Federation Council, and through the Faro-Isladnsky barrier he does not walk.

                  Where in the article 6980km? If something from Barbados to Faroe 6800 km.


                  Very fundamental difference in terms of secrecy, is not it?

                  3.
                  At the same time, as I said, the hydrophone lines of the SOSUS are located just at the "Greenland-Iceland-United Kingdom (GIUK) gap"


                  YES you what?


                  Red dots look. He said...
                  1. +1
                    11 June 2019 03: 26
                    What's the difference what year it is?
                    Boat noise figures have changed. What is written directly in your article.
                    In addition, your beloved Poseidon just goes deep and noisily (in the real world, not in wet dreams and lying stuffing), everything is like in the old days.
                    Where are the proofs, Billy?
                    Adjusted for the fact that it will not be on the Federation Council, and through the Faro-Isladnsky barrier he does not walk.
                    Billy, where are the proofs? Although it doesn’t matter ...
                    3.
                    Something I do not see red dots near Barbados, but on the line between Greenland and the UK I see. So what am I wrong about?
                    1. +1
                      11 June 2019 13: 13
                      1. You have not seen pictures from Bocharov creek?
                      2. The military unit under Poseidon is now very concrete, in the glorious city of Vilyuchinsk. Already, the current in the fence was allowed, while you believe in it that.
                      1. +1
                        11 June 2019 13: 40
                        1.
                        Have you seen the pictures from Bocharov Stream?
                        What are you talking about now?
                        2.
                        The military unit under Poseidon is quite concrete now equipped, in the glorious city of Vilyuchinsk. Already, they let the current into the fence, while you believe in that.
                        AND? Why do you think that the following Poseidons and Khabarovski will be based only in Vilyuchinsk?
                      2. 0
                        11 June 2019 13: 42
                        Not Khabarovsky and Belgorod
                      3. -1
                        12 June 2019 18: 55
                        Quote: Newone
                        AND? Why do you think that the following Poseidons and Khabarovski will be based only in Vilyuchinsk?

                        relax
                        in YOUR "pink reality" they will be based on the Moon lol
                      4. +1
                        12 June 2019 19: 49
                        At least not in YOUR pool with brown ducks, where you so persistently invite people :)
      2. +4
        7 June 2019 00: 54
        In all the links that you cite, there is not what you write about, so who is lying? Where is there about infrasound? And SOSUS is a technology of the 70s of the 20th century.
        1. -2
          7 June 2019 01: 31
          PZK described in the article is not in the audible range of the sound holds, at a specified distance is impossible.
      3. +4
        7 June 2019 16: 23
        Direct and illiterate lie.
        No.

        I’ll tell you a secret that in the opinion of a layman, TE looks to me no worse than your statement about the impossibility of a low-noise stroke and the absence of an electric motor. Maybe it makes sense to make a detailed article? What type: Our ideas about Poseidon, fiction and reality. Or can the forest go felling for such an article?
        1. +3
          8 June 2019 15: 08
          Quote: MooH
          Maybe it makes sense to make a detailed article?

          actually she was preparing
          but it will not work here
      4. +3
        8 June 2019 15: 07
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Not great

        yes you cho laughing
        I'm from this nonsense wassat Neighing Aki horse laughing
        especially amused "polymer spherical antenna Amphora" laughing

        probably "unforgettable from Lavrov" remember laughing
    2. +4
      7 June 2019 08: 40
      "Complete layout of submarine warfare" ////
      ------

      But there is a strong contrast:
      good overall review and
      The conclusion about the usefulness of the Poseidon project is little consistent with this review.
      1. +4
        8 June 2019 15: 09
        Quote: voyaka uh
        But there is a strong contrast:
        good overall review and

        there is no "good review", kollectifff affftorofff not Schmog even sources decently compile laughing
    3. +1
      8 June 2019 14: 39
      Quote: Gennady
      Great article. Full layout of submarine submarine warfare

      long fool write this nonsense?
      Andryusha & Co.'s "affluor collective" was not smart enough to even read Parkhomenko (and this is perhaps the most serious and fundamental work on noise in the public domain)
  4. +6
    6 June 2019 22: 02
    Author, excellent article Everything would be like this - the level of materials on "Voennoye Obozreniye" began to fail strongly in technical terms.
    1. -7
      7 June 2019 00: 27
      The article contains a bunch of incorrect data. In addition to a good style there is nothing. or widely known platitudes, or false data.
      1. +6
        7 June 2019 00: 47
        or well-known platitudes, or false data.


        Who's stopping? Modesty? Write better, more precisely, more truthfully ... wink
        Only textbooks for military universities of the Navy do not retype, and so - a general educational program, clear, understandable to anyone, with an explanation of typical problems and misconceptions. Just say thanks.
        For example, take yes and write this method with an x-ray laser. You yourself mentioned it above. Like, so and so, such and such a device, such and such physical effects in sea water, something is reflected there, registered in such a way. By God, we’ll just rejoice.
        1. -2
          7 June 2019 01: 20
          There is one small nuance.
          This is what the team, working from under the operator's nickname Andryusha, writes to those who are very deeply involved in the topic.

          Here to me
          timokhin-aa
          There are no children's topics have gone. Let's go straight. This morning, I read the correspondence of lawyers and on the topic of Poseidon they will actually imprison people. All this goes. Too much tongue rotated, completely lost fear
          Specifically, I personally wash my hands. I am not going to testify against Mina, even if it is over. There must be freedom of opinion. This is very, very important. No matter how wrong he is, there must be a right to criticism even from a journalist. Now the vector is exactly the question.
          But I would point out that whoever is not ready to sit for convictions in the current situation would be better silent.


          http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=2087&p=25#p1209119

          or here is Klimov

          Personally, like many others, I watch Maksik with popcorn running from kremlebot, but markers rather show that his clowning will end badly. Catch up with him not at all kremlebotey, and other people. How is the Indian wisdom "It is not worth very long to poke a stick in the face of a sleeping tiger."


          http://forums.airbase.ru/2018/07/t104341--atomnyj-bespilotnyj-podvodnyj-apparat-posejdon.html

          but from another virtual of the same gang addressed to E. Maksimov, who pulled out a package of documentation for this cut from state procurement and made public.
          Hint.

          You, a colleague, talk too much and do too little to reduce responsibility for it. Do you think I just have VPN checkboxes? Are you discussing something here? Washer or something else? Well, by God, you are just lucky. Until.


          http://www.balancer.ru/user/128141/posts/2019/03/09/

          And, unlike the delirium with which this team is flooding the Internet and the prospects for Poseidon as a whole, these threats here are quite real.
          And so everything has already been calculated.

          So writing "how is it in real life" is simply dangerous.
          As an option here, this is the last paragraph in this article, about SPA Poseidon
          https://topwar.ru/155207-statusnyj-tupik.html
          1. +2
            7 June 2019 01: 49
            Send the standard excuses "Hiding from us"
            1. -2
              7 June 2019 10: 29
              If you are involved in the project, then it's time to be puzzled by a new name, a house in Ecuador and a good plastic surgeon.
              The GDP of such a setup will not forgive.
              Not this time.
      2. 0
        7 June 2019 00: 55
        Can I have an example?
      3. +2
        7 June 2019 10: 27
        As they say, envy silently .. and if you are really a humanist, then you don’t need to touch technical questions into which you did not dive at least at the level of the first three courses of a technical university.
    2. -1
      8 June 2019 14: 40
      Quote: dauria
      Author, excellent article Everything would be like this - the level of materials on "Voennoye Obozreniye" began to fail strongly in technical terms.

      fool
      rather level wassat commentators laughing
    3. 0
      8 June 2019 15: 10
      Quote: dauria
      I started to take a big break in technical terms.

      I’ll grieve YOU wassat
  5. +2
    6 June 2019 22: 56
    More such articles on VO!
    1. -2
      7 June 2019 00: 27
      If you had bothered to check what is written in this article, you would not want this))) Would you like something like "less of this paid propaganda on VO".
      1. +2
        7 June 2019 01: 24
        This is who to write this but not for you, Timokhin. So much paid order, how many you wrote, nobody wrote here.
        1. 0
          7 June 2019 10: 29
          Haha

          Example please order.
          1. 0
            8 June 2019 21: 14
            And you are deceitful ?! ... Now as I see the end of the discussion of the article - "Suitcases without handles. The Navy buys a series of useless ships", you have thoroughly cleaned up. Is not it ?! there was one interesting observation, and your hasty response to it, "in light of the company against 20386, ... and 22160 was not so bad ...". Was it Alexander ?!
            1. 0
              10 June 2019 11: 42
              So it is. The damage from the project 22160 is less than from 20386, this time, if we talk about the fact that it was necessary to build ships to test the modular concept (which is not so), then 22160 is better here than 20386, and besides, I had to knock out from the hands of the supporters of 20386, this argument immediately, "at the hardware level."

              Vladimir, I will honestly tell you, I do not cling to honest methods, I can do quite badly with a person, a project, or anything at all, it just so happened.

              But this is not the order, I myself decided so, okay?
            2. -1
              12 June 2019 18: 54
              Quote: Vl Nemchinov
              Now as I see the end of the discussion of the article - "Suitcases without handles. The Navy buys a series of useless ships", you have thoroughly cleaned up.

              YOU if you're lying, do not lie like that lol
              Timokhin to the VO administration (which alone has the ability to delete comments) has no relation
        2. +4
          8 June 2019 15: 12
          Quote: Newone
          This is who to write this but not for you, Timokhin. So much paid order, how many you wrote, nobody wrote here.

          Mousia, do not you think that with such statements in decent places they are asked either to proof or to go down the stairs? - that YOU actually waited

          Well, let me remind you that you personally, Borenka, were caught for a long deceitful language MULTIPLE (see, for example, comments on my article on anti-torpedoes 885)
          1. 0
            11 June 2019 03: 42
            YOU personally, Borenka, was caught REPEATED for a long lying tongue (see, for example, comments on my article on anti-torpedoes 885)

            Klimov you are a LIAR. Your article "Anti-torpedoes. We are still ahead, but they are already overtaking us" I did not comment at all.
            However, what to expect from a person whose article was removed from the VO for libel and for whom the connection between the speed and acceleration of the body is "alternative physics" ...
            And proofs
            And you are deceitful ?! ... Now as I see the end of the discussion of the article - "Suitcases without handles. The Navy buys a series of useless ships", you have thoroughly cleaned up. Is not it ?! there was one interesting observation, and your hasty response to it, "in light of the company against 20386, ... and 22160 was not so bad ...".

            Vladimir, I will honestly tell you, I do not cling to honest methods, I can do quite badly with a person, a project, or anything at all, it just so happened.

            No matter how I noticed it, Timokhin himself confirmed it.
            1. 0
              11 June 2019 04: 35
              I struggle, but here I was mistaken:
              comments:
              Vadim237 (Vadim) 18 May 2019 13: 52
              For the author - all new submarines that 885, that the 955 project are equipped with anti-torpedo complexes Package NK.
              Newone (Boris) 20 May 2019 03: 03
              Could you give a link to the source of this information.
              Fizik M (Maxim) 9 21 May 2019 20: 41
              Quote: Vadim237 For the author - all new submarines that 885, that 955 of the project are equipped with anti-torpedo packages Package NK.
              LIE
              and silly and childish
              see materials of the same arbitration

              https://topwar.ru/157559-apkr-severodvinsk-proekt-885-jasen-sdan-vmf-s-kriticheskimi-dlja-ego-boesposobnosti-nedodelkami-protivotorpednoj-zaschity-podlodok-vmf-rf-net.html
              Quote: Newone
              However, what to expect from a person whose article was removed from the VO for slander

              FALSE, Fighting, this is your FALSE
              why the article was removed - it is clear to all sane - the villains "blazed to the full", all the comments to it lie as well as links to where it was re-posted
              for some reason the villains are in no hurry to go to court on alleged "libel" lol (which is not surprising, because there it will be possible to say a lot about what is impossible in the media)
              but according to the incoming data, the extreme interest manifests itself in the fact that I have documents for them

              Quote: Newone
              for which the connection between the speed and acceleration of the body is "alternative physics" ...

              Monsieur, YOU have already caught sight of your lies and "rotation of the sirloin" so that you themselves did not understand what it was about laughing
              Quote: Newone
              And proofs

              and what he wrote wrong?
              and what is there to be "ashamed of"?
              1. 0
                11 June 2019 04: 45
                FALSE, Fighting, this is your FALSE
                This is not a lie, max, but a clinical fact.
                why the article was removed - it is clear to all sane - the villains "flared in full"
                Such a new song about the main thing.
                but according to the incoming data, the extreme interest manifests itself in the fact that I have documents for them
                Yes Yes. Do not forget to wear a foil hat.
                lying and "spinning the sirloin"
                It is only you, Maksia, with your additional team that suffer so. To lie, rotate the loin and fornication in the forums, for your part.
                and what is there to be "ashamed of"?
                Indeed, what is ashamed of, that in one place you speak one by one, and in the other everything is the same, but in the opposite direction.
                1. 0
                  12 June 2019 18: 50
                  Quote: Newone
                  clinical fact.

                  are you about yourself?
                  Quote: Newone
                  Such a new song about the main thing.

                  actually this is the first such case on Topvare
                  Quote: Newone
                  Do not forget to put on a foil cap.

                  ask the medics for this
                  on their next round (and don't forget)
                  Quote: Newone
                  Indeed, what is ashamed of, that in one place you speak one by one, and in the other everything is the same, but in the opposite direction.

                  this is YOUR lie
          2. 0
            11 June 2019 04: 30
            Well, let me remind you that you personally, Borenka, were caught for a long deceitful language MULTIPLE (see, for example, comments on my article on anti-torpedoes 885)

            Here is my ONLY comment to your article "AICR" Severodvinsk "handed over to the Navy with critical deficiencies for combat capability"
            Could you give a link to the source of this information?
            Where is the lie here?
            Klimov you are a slanderer and a liar.
            Come on proofs
            1. 0
              12 June 2019 18: 51
              Quote: Newone
              Here is my ONLY comment to your article "AICR" Severodvinsk "handed over to the Navy with critical deficiencies for combat capability"

              Fighting with your eyesight how?
              Fully quoted by me above
              Quote: Newone
              Klimov you are a slanderer and a liar.

              this is who from under the baseboard? pathological liar Fighting?
    2. +2
      8 June 2019 14: 40
      Quote: Voyager
      More such articles on VO!

      those. custom propaganda?
      1. 0
        11 June 2019 03: 44
        Monsieur, does it not seem to you that with such statements in decent places they ask or proofs or lower them from the stairs?
        Have you already been let down from the stairs, Klimov?
        Judging by the number of banned accounts, more than once.
  6. +2
    7 June 2019 00: 08
    good article.
    but I would like to write this.
    I am not a specialist in the field of submarine propulsion systems.
    but there are a few general points to this.
    The most optimal engine from the point of view of minimizing the noise of a non-nuclear submarine is a direct current electric motor with a direct drive of a propeller / water jet, since an alternating current motor generates noise with a frequency of oscillation of the current strength in the circuit (50 Hz for domestic submarines and 60 Hz for American submarines).

    the classic DC motor also generates current oscillations in the circuit with a frequency proportional to the frequency of rotation of the armature, taking into account the number of pairs of motor poles.
    only DC conversion from the boat’s batteries does not occur in an external electronic frequency converter, as in AC systems, but directly in the engine by mechanical commutation of the armature winding parts on the engine armature collector.
    There is sparking, which is also a clear unmasking sign.
    if you want to see how it looks, turn on the electric drill and look at the brush area - the design is similar.
    The efficiency of a DC motor (abbreviated as DCT) is much lower than that of asynchronous AC motors (AC) - for DCT about 70-80 percent, for AD - about 92 percent, and this is a shorter range from batteries and large heat loss is also a unmasking sign .
    Indeed, it is technically difficult to make a low-speed blood pressure, and you need a gearbox in the general case.
    But there is another type of AC motor - a permanent magnet synchronous motor (PMSM), or a variation thereof with a built-in electronic commutator, which is called a permanent magnet motor (VD), a "self-commutated synchronous motor", which, by the way, sometimes they are also referred to as DC motors, but they have a completely different principle of operation than the classic DC motors.
    SD has an efficiency even higher than blood pressure, up to 94 percent, and may well be slow. The most promising type of engine to date, and not only in submarines.
    French Scorpio, for example, has just such an engine
    The power plant is based on the Jeumont Electric Magtronic engine - a multiphase synchronous alternating current electric motor with permanent magnetic excitation. The main magnetic fields in it are created by cobalt magnets, without loss in the motor rotor, which increases its efficiency and reduces the need for cooling.

    Although the description of the engine on Wiki is clumsy, the type of engine speaks for itself.
    modern German boats have the Siemens SINAVYCIS Permasin valve motor.
    the fact that the future in the traction drive, including on submarines, and on other autonomous devices, including torpedoes, behind the SDPM or VD is an undoubted fact.
    .
    1. +3
      7 June 2019 00: 12
      Modern DC drives do not have brushes. There is no sparking either. Switching is made by power transistors.
      1. +1
        7 June 2019 00: 33
        this is a valve motor.
        True, there is still a brushless DC motor (BDTT), differs from VD in the way voltage is formed on the stator windings, but I have not heard that they were put on boats, and with the construction of a classic DPT it has basically a common name. However, in Russian and to a lesser extent Western literature with these names there is confusion and not always established terminology.
        old boats are precisely DPT with mechanical switching, new ones are either SD or VD.
        When they say "DC motor", they mean the collector machine.
        PS in the drives in general there are no brushes. they are in the engines smile
        1. 0
          7 June 2019 01: 30
          Engines, oddly enough, are part of the drive.
          also a brushless DC motor (BDTT), differs from the VD in the way the voltage is formed on the stator windings
          Valve motor This excuse the motor with the formation of voltage on the stator using keys (valves). It can be both asynchronous and synchronous and direct current.
          1. +1
            7 June 2019 03: 42
            Engines, oddly enough, are part of the drive.

            part of the drive, but not the drive smile
            Valve motor This excuse the motor with the formation of voltage on the stator using keys (valves). It can be both asynchronous and synchronous and direct current.

            unless in some abstract broad sense. and even then, by your definition, there will be no valve motor, but a valve actuator.
            but in reality it is customary to call a valve motor a quite definite type of motor (although the terminology may "float" a little both in Russian and English literature).
            if in more detail, then a classic motor winder is called a motor, in which during the operation the parts of the windings of the rotating rotor (armature) are switched mechanically with the help of a collector and brushes. The voltage shape on the winding is close to rectangular.
            In contrast, the stator winding of the fixed part of the motor is switched on in the SD, VD and BDTT.
            If we take the LEDs (they are of different types and differ in the design of the rotor, but in this case the most interesting for the traction drive is the one with permanent magnets on the rotor), then the rotor speed will correspond to the rotational speed of the stator magnetic field formed by the external commutator with the help of several windings, most often three, but not necessarily. So that the motor does not fall out of synchronism when the load changes, the switching speed is controlled by the rotor position sensor-DPR. The current shape on the stator-sinusoidal winding is usually formed using pulse-width modulation (PWM). If we constructively combine SD, DPR and switch into a single design, this is what is commonly called the VD engine. The shape of the stator current in the VD is also a sinusoid, although externally it is connected to a DC network. If we simplify the switch so that it does not give out a sinusoidal shape to the winding, but is close to rectangular (and at the same time slightly change the shape of the teeth of the magnetic system), then the resulting motor will be called the BJPT (some authors also call it VD). I note that the efficiency of it, like that of a classic DPT, will be noticeably lower than that of SD or VD. hi
            1. 0
              7 June 2019 10: 18
              the resulting engine and will be called BDTT


              Competently painted, thanks. These motors are replacing old brushes with permanent magnets with might and main, even in toys starting from units of watts. Add only to the advantage that it is easy to programmatically control the lead and reverse. That instead of special sensors, they use the very part of the winding (EMF in it), which is free at the moment. Reliable as a shaft - only a pair of bearings. Well, the disadvantages are sometimes the switch itself (popularly "regulator" laughing ) weighs the same as the engine. And it costs the same. And, paradoxically, it "sparks" (not in the literal sense, but in the fact that the interference to the radio channel is no less)
            2. 0
              11 June 2019 02: 07
              Part of part is not part of the whole? Straight vassal of my vassal is not my vassal.

              A synchronous motor does not have permanent magnets. Generally. According to the principle of action.
              The permanent magnet motor on the rotor is a brushless DC motor.

              I note that the efficiency of it, like that of a classic DPT, will be noticeably lower than that of SD or VD.

              You are not in the subject. The efficiency of the BDT is not less than the efficiency of the SD. Only here the network is usually AC, therefore, you need a rectifier with a power corrector, which also has an efficiency.
              1. 0
                11 June 2019 06: 54
                A synchronous motor does not have permanent magnets. Generally.
                I'm wrong here. Shame on me. Forgot the synchronous engine device.
    2. -1
      8 June 2019 14: 41
      Quote: Avior
      good article.

      why is she "good"?
      the fact that the collective of authors of "Andryusha and Co" is not even Shmog decently compiled sources?
  7. +8
    7 June 2019 00: 43
    Excellent article, at least for educational program;
    It became more or less clear what and why towed hooks and dies, what trace remains on the surface of the submarine, and how to fix it, etc.
    Well, advanced comrades will certainly grumble about the incompleteness of the material ...
    And for not very advanced, like me to learn it and it will be necessary to reread a couple of times
    1. 0
      7 June 2019 01: 23
      Well, advanced tovarischi course will grumble about the incompleteness matiryala


      The question is that the material is SPECIALLY made incomplete.
    2. 0
      8 June 2019 14: 43
      Quote: Ehanatone
      Excellent article, at least for educational program;

      article by the way extremely miserable and illiterate
      with a mass of factual errors and lies (see, for example, the frequencies of our "Vignette" and German ATAS - for some reason, they are more than Kilohertz declared by "affluors", etc.)
      1. +3
        11 June 2019 01: 51
        Write your own, competent, on the same topic.
    3. 0
      8 June 2019 15: 14
      Quote: Ehanatone
      And for not very advanced, like me to learn it and it will be necessary to reread a couple of times

      the article is just stupid and illiterate
      if necessary, "on the topic" - see the "Hydroacoustics" thread on the Courage Forum (Navy)
  8. -3
    7 June 2019 00: 48
    But the good and correct articles about SPA Poseidon

    Time.
    https://topwar.ru/152577-posejdon-bespoleznoe-sverhoruzhie-atomnyj-dron-ne-tak-uzh-i-polezen-dlja-strany.html

    Two.
    https://topwar.ru/155207-statusnyj-tupik.html
    In the comments began disclosing gostine and beat them. But the article is interesting.

    Also I recommend this anonymus to everyone, just shine.
    http://www.balancer.ru/g/p7294729
    1. +1
      7 June 2019 01: 36
      Thank you very much!
      I read the first two, now I read the third ...
      As for the special default - it seems to me that for the layman (and those on VO, the vast, easily overwhelming majority, including me, of course) material is already too ...
      For example :
      It seems in your article about torpedoes, I understood only the social part:
      That they actually do not exist, and that there are people who are very interested for one reason or another, so that they do not exist in the future ...
      And all the technical part went by, although I, by education, absolutely not humanities - just very special, specific ...
      1. +1
        8 June 2019 14: 45
        Quote: Ehanatone
        And all the technical part went by, although I, by education, absolutely not humanities - just very special, specific ...

        You have paid attention to a very important point.
        Already several chiefs (ie not ordinary readers) have expressed a wish for a series of articles like "torpedoes are easy";) "Anti-submarine warfare is simple";)
        And they will, but alas, no longer here.
    2. +6
      7 June 2019 01: 38
      Timokhin
      Neither you nor Klimov have cited an article with calculations of the buoyancy of Poseidon.
      And the articles you listed without calculation are propaganda slag.
      The only thing with which it can be agreed without reservation is that under simultaneous conditions:
      1) Poseidon's warhead equal to 1 Mt,
      2) The use of Poseidon against coastal infrastructure
      3) Overweight Poseidon and, as a consequence, the impossibility of its progress less than 30 knots,
      its usefulness as a weapon is catastrophically inferior to the usefulness of a conventional ICBM (not to mention prodigals such as Vanguard).
      But the author of the articles did not bother to prove all these 3 statements.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. 0
        12 June 2019 18: 02
        Quote: Newone
        Neither you nor Klimov ever gave an article with calculations of the buoyancy of Poseidon

        EVALUATION was given
        intentionally DOWNLOADED
        but CLEAR SHOWING that HUGE BRAKING FOR IT IS INEVITABLE
        Quote: Newone
        The only thing with which it can be agreed without reservation is that under simultaneous conditions:
        1) Poseidon's warhead equal to 1 Mt,

        it is YOUR nonsense that has no relation to reality
    3. -1
      7 June 2019 20: 59
      Yes, there would be more such articles for the Americans to read. Maybe they will believe ...
      1. 0
        10 June 2019 11: 59
        They do not just know everything about this drank, they are rumored to themselves pushed us towards him in due time.
  9. 0
    7 June 2019 01: 28
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    And about lazerhttps: //russian.rt.com/inotv/2018-10-05/CM-kosmicheskij-lazer-Kitaya-obnaruzhit

    Where is the word "x-ray" in the article under the link? laughing
  10. 0
    7 June 2019 01: 42
    Great article. True, Alexander Timokhin was upset. But the case has not yet objected. Probably the material is cooking. We wait.
    1. +1
      8 June 2019 14: 52
      Quote: malyvalv
      Excellent article.

      fool
      than? so that kollektifff afftorov "Andrusha and Co" is not even Shmog sources to compile? laughing
      Quote: malyvalv
      True, Alexander Timokhin was upset.

      No, your reaction to this BOS can only be laughing
      Quote: malyvalv
      Probably the material is preparing. We wait.

      PMSM with materials "overly critical" of some particularly controversial projects and programs at HE will now have a "certain deficit"
      but "creativity lol Quartet Afftoroff " wassat "Andryusha and Co" - will be enough laughing
    2. 0
      10 June 2019 11: 59
      I'll wait with the materials for now. I will wait for the promised tests of the miracle "weapon". And reactions. From the GDP side, for example laughing
      1. +1
        17 August 2019 21: 49
        I can’t understand why you are so nervous about this product. I recall the story of the creation of the torpedo missile, no one believed that this was possible.
  11. -1
    7 June 2019 01: 43
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    There are places from where they led the PLA

    You do not understand what you are reading:
    - tracking the noise of submarines at a distance of several thousand kilometers was possible only in 1960-ies when the boats were moving within the boundaries of the underwater sound channels, after the discovery of these channels the submarines simply stopped moving within their boundaries;
    - Greenland-Britain line lies not in the Barents Sea, but in the North Sea, while the island of Barbados is not located in the Caribbean, but in the Sargasso Sea laughing
    1. -1
      7 June 2019 10: 32
      - tracking the noise of submarines at a distance of several thousand kilometers was possible only in 1960-ies when the boats were moving within the boundaries of the underwater sound channels, after the discovery of these channels the submarines simply stopped moving within their boundaries;


      And your Poseidon, he, too, will not move in these PZK? laughing
    2. 0
      8 June 2019 15: 19
      Quote: Operator
      You do not understand what you are reading:

      fool
      Mousia, it's you (your collectifff afftortorof wassat ) DOES NOT UNDERSTAND ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT TURNS TO JUDGE AND WRITE laughing
      Quote: Operator
      - tracking the noise of submarines at a distance of several thousand kilometers was possible only in 1960-ies when the boats were moving within the boundaries of underwater sound channels,

      fool
      tell me about the 1st generation submarines that could move "within the boundaries" of the DEEP PZK specified in the diagram in your picture (in your illiterate opus wassat ) laughing
      eh?
      when you are yours wassat "sculpted" what place you "thought" wassat ?
      trying to "challenge" my article, you didn't even bother to read it carefully (see, for example, the VRSZ scheme!)
  12. +7
    7 June 2019 02: 21
    As a result, the detection distance of the Poseidon NLA moving at a speed of 10 nodes using modern GUS installed on any type of carrier and operating in the entire range of sound waves in the direction-finding and echolocation modes will be less than 1 km, which is obviously not enough not only to prevent attacks on a stationary coastal target (taking into account the radius of destruction by a shock wave from an explosion of a special LBU), but also to protect the carrier-based strike force as it travels into the waters, the depth of which exceeds 1 km.

    How does the author know anything about Poseidon? He took the approximate overall dimensions, took the declared maximum speed and maximum depth, turned on imagination, and on the basis of these noodles concludes that the ash is an enemy strike group. The first sea trials are due to "Poseidon" this summer, if possible. How and by whom will the still virtual Poseidon be targeted at the carrier group? If Poseidon is being created for Harmony, then what does the aircraft carrier group have to do with it? In short, there are fantasies and there are fantasies.
  13. xax
    +9
    7 June 2019 04: 09
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    This is done by people working for PR

    Even if the article was written for the sake of PR, one cannot but admit that it is very interesting and informative.
    Also, one cannot but pay attention to the fact that the criticism addressed to this article (so far mainly from you) is (so far?) Pointless spraying of saliva, which for the reader once again speaks in favor of the veracity of the article. If the author of the article is deceiving us, then this level of criticism only helps him in this.
    1. -3
      7 June 2019 05: 06
      Quote: xax

      is (yet?) pointless spraying of saliva, which for the reader once again speaks in favor of the veracity of the article. If the author of the article is deceiving us, then this level of criticism only helps him in this.

      pearl good

      stole a straw?
    2. +2
      8 June 2019 15: 22
      Quote: xax
      Even if the article was written for the sake of PR, one cannot but admit that it is very interesting and informative.

      laughing is this THRESH "meaningful"?!?!?
      PMSM is laughing laughing laughing
      Quote: xax
      pointless sprinkling of saliva, which for the reader once again speaks in favor of the veracity of the article.

      the article said exhaustively
      afftors contradict themselves (see the frequency scores), do not own the topic - ABSOLUTELY, they are completely inadequate in the comments (see Andryushu above wassat )

      those. even a decent textbook on hydroacoustics did not bother to open!
      1. xax
        0
        8 June 2019 17: 15
        Quote: Fizik M
        TRESH

        Quote: Fizik M
        don't own the topic - ABSOLUTELY

        Quote: Fizik M
        complete inadequate

        Quote: Fizik M
        a decent textbook on sonar did not bother to open!

        You forgot to take the pills again, right?
        1. 0
          12 June 2019 17: 55
          Quote: xax
          Quote: Fizik M didn't bother to open a decent hydroacoustics textbook!
          You forgot to take the pills again, right?

          I think before the textbook YOU need some water to drink laughing
          1. xax
            0
            12 June 2019 23: 51
            Vodichka - not pills
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. -1
      12 June 2019 17: 58
      Quote: xax
      pointless sprinkling of saliva, which for the reader once again speaks in favor of the veracity of the article. If the author of the article deceives us, then this level of criticism only helps him in this.

      compared to YOUR deceitful words, an explicit and synchronous vote of bots in + these YOUR "posts" and - Timokhin is clearly hinted - who YOU ​​are and what are you doing here;)
  14. +7
    7 June 2019 05: 45
    A huge interesting article. The author is a definite plus. I cannot refute criticism of the article and comments of the same kind from a technical point of view - I do not have a sufficient level of knowledge. Among other things, I really do not like (I am extremely squeamish) gb-shnye manners when they start to track. In addition, I am skeptical of believers out of fear of punishment.
    There is such an anecdote:
    One musician wrote a concert for the violin. In great joy, I knocked on the room to my neighbor. He sits at a table, watches TV and plumps. Then the musician from hopelessness offers him to listen to solo. The neighbor rests, says that he does not understand anything in music and does not like the violin, to which the composer says that he needs just such an uninitiated, unprepared listener to appreciate the real influence of the composition and the skill of the game. A neighbor tells him that if not for long - bring a bubble and play and play.
    The violinist runs away for the violin and bubble. Brings vodka. The listener turns off the TV, opens the brought bottle and sips vodka while listening to the violinist's game.
    - What do you say? the violinist asks.
    “I want to know why you sometimes drive along strings not with a bow, but pinch them with your fingers?”
    “It’s pichichato - a technique for playing stringed stringed musical instruments when the sound is not extracted with a bow, but with a pinch of string, which makes the sound jerky and quieter than when playing with a bow,” the musician explains.
    A neighbor picking a match in his teeth gives out:
    - In general, the music is interesting, compassionate. In some places it brings to tears. Just keep in mind when you bow along the strings - everything seems to be fine. And when you start to make this your little thing - it seems to me you are cursing.
    bully
    The global oceans cover more than 360 km². I understand that if one person creates a weapon, then another will necessarily create protection from it. I don’t know why, but the article showed a mortal danger for the submarine, which is almost the same as finding specific mosquito in a forest grove. This is not a specialist’s opinion, backed up by cases when Russian nuclear submarines went unnoticed in pursuit of American AUGs or in close proximity to protected areas and facilities.
    Therefore, all the methods described by the author can bring significant results only in the presence of a huge number of these "detection tools".
    Thank! It was interesting. I did not like the comments on the article, which go over to the personality of the author:
    1. +2
      8 June 2019 15: 23
      Quote: ROSS 42
      A huge interesting article. The author is a definite plus. I cannot criticize the article and comments of the same kind in technical terms - I don’t have enough knowledge

      become - just TRESH and ACHINE
      on technology - just compare the pattern in the slam-shut valve in this opus and fig. with seasonal change of VRS
      and see the comments of the alleged "afftor" above - people simply do not understand what and what nonsense he is talking about
  15. -2
    7 June 2019 09: 35
    Quote: Vladimir Postnikov
    How and by whom will the still virtual Poseidon be targeted at the carrier group?

    It is somehow inconvenient to hear such a question from you - if there are non-virtual ones:

    1. ZGRLS "Container" with a detection range of surface ships of 5000 km (6000 km maximum detection distance minus 1000 km dead zone).

    2. Liana radio intelligence satellites monitoring the radiation of radars, radio stations and radio drive systems of the AUG practically throughout the entire territory of the World Ocean.

    3. Elementary fishing and commercial vessels under flags of convenience that serve as sea carriers of radio reconnaissance UAVs for which the range of radiation detection of AUG radiation ranges from 400 km (surface ships) to 800 km (deck DRLO aircraft and bomber fighters).

    Well, the cherry on top - the AUG ships generate such a level of hydroacoustic noise that they can be heard at a distance of over 1000 km. In other words, the Poseidons will be able to independently carry out remote tracking of weapons for the AUG immediately after the latter leave the water area of ​​the naval bases.
    After the AUG goes beyond the continental shelf to a depth of over 1000 meters (where Poseidon is not detected by any search means due to its ultra-low target strength), the UUV will be able to accompany the AUG, being directly in the center of its order. In case of receiving a code command from the Zeus radio transmitter (Kola Peninsula), Poseidon will ascend to the surface in less than 1 minute and will detonate its 100-Mtn special warhead. After that, the aircraft carrier with all its contents will turn into plasma, and surface ships and submarines of the AUG order will be sunk or disabled (depending on the distance to the epicenter of the explosion) by an air blast, underwater hydraulic shock, light radiation and radioactive contamination.
    1. +4
      7 June 2019 10: 28
      Aircraft carriers, of course, are not a child prodigy, and it is possible, of course, to drown them, that one person built, can drown another one forever, but with such cap-and-eye approaches, it’s amazing how they didn’t drown any of them for half a century, and even didn’t get into any of them.

      1. Yeah. With a probability of detection of 50 percent, it will either detect or not.
      And when it finds out, whether the aircraft carrier, or not. And this radar target in case of war is simply excellent. Do not miss.
      2. Of which there are only three, and there is nothing to do to ensure radio silence at a known time of their flight over the zone.
      Especially considering that there are a lot of similar radars and other radiation sources on American ships, and some minesweeper has the same navigation radar as an aircraft carrier.
      And AUG performs transitions in the radio silence mode, even Hokai and Grovers usually fly in this mode.
      And even if it’s active, it’s still necessary to determine whether these aircraft generally flew from the aircraft carrier or from afar to glitter the radar for misinformation.
      3. Tell us more about where and when you saw them. Give a link or something.


      Well, the cherry on the cake - the standard American trap Nixie clings to any minesweeper and is ready to portray an aircraft carrier for enemy sonar better than the aircraft carrier itself. And even more so, if the pursuer doesn’t have hydroacoustics there, then there will be no options at all.
      As you have everything just turns out, clap - and found clap and follow as much as we want in automatic mode, despite the active opposition of the enemy, just a bit of business, just spit .....

      will undermine its 100-MTn ​​special warhead

      what kind of beast is this? it’s definitely not antimatter in the stuffing?
      "Poseidons" will be able to independently carry out remote tracking of weapons for the AUG

      can you name at least one real and standing weapon model capable of such tracking that is not from the fantasy world? hi
      1. 0
        10 June 2019 12: 04
        And how long can this Nixie portray an aircraft carrier?
    2. +2
      7 June 2019 12: 59
      Quote: Operator
      It is somehow inconvenient to hear such a question from you - if there are non-virtual ones:

      1. ZGRLS "Container" with a detection range of surface ships of 5000 km (6000 km maximum detection distance minus 1000 km dead zone).

      2. Liana radio intelligence satellites monitoring the radiation of radars, radio stations and radio drive systems of the AUG practically throughout the entire territory of the World Ocean.

      3. Elementary fishing and commercial vessels

      Yes, I somehow do not care whether it is convenient for you to hear this from me, or not convenient. Even if a target is detected beyond 5000 km, then these 5000 km VIRTUAL "Poseidon" still has to go to the target and not get lost. AS? Then there is a stream of obscene expressions.
      Quote: Operator
      The Poseidons will be able to independently carry out remote tracking of weapons for the AUG immediately after the latter leave the water area of ​​the naval bases.

      Here is this fantasy from which finger is sucked?
      Forgive me for my harshness. I'm getting old.
    3. +4
      7 June 2019 17: 48
      "Poseidon will ascend to the surface in less than 1 minute.
      and will undermine its 100-MTn ​​special warhead.
      Then the aircraft carrier with all its contents will turn into plasma "////
      ----
      This is what the "Operator" wrote! His imagery cannot be confused with anyone else. fellow
      A detailed review article was written (or translated from English) by other people.
  16. +3
    7 June 2019 10: 10
    permeable to the magnetic component of electromagnetic radiation

    our physics teacher drove out of class for such phrases
    Without the second component, will this radiation really want to propagate?
    1. -3
      7 June 2019 14: 55
      For the information of your teacher - a permanent magnet has a magnetic field and has no electric.

      The Internet is full of experiments describing the placement of radio transmitters inside aluminum cans (diamagnetic) and the fixation of an external magnetic field in the absence of an external electric field.

      On this effect, purely magnetic transceivers of extremely short range are available for data exchange between the electronic components of the perspective equipment of military personnel, as well as medium-range magnetic currents for divers.
      1. +2
        8 June 2019 15: 26
        Quote: Operator
        as well as magnetic currents woks medium range for divers.

        fool
        because I have something to do with the topic;)
        I note that your submission to put it mildly are far from reality
        and yes, about the range of the diver of such systems, I know
        like about CONDITIONS at which they were achieved
        1. -1
          10 June 2019 09: 17
          Quote: Fizik M
          I note that your submission to put it mildly are far from reality

          Thank you and a deep bow to my teacher, still hanging out on the Internet and getting an education are two big differences
  17. +5
    7 June 2019 10: 18
    "in deep layers in case of cavitation on the propeller blades;"

    Cavitation (from lat. Cavita - emptiness) is the process of formation and subsequent collapse of bubbles in a fluid flow, accompanied by noise and hydraulic shocks, the formation of cavities in a fluid ...

    During cavitation, the formation of water vapor bubbles occurs due to the discharge on the rotor blades, at which the pressure becomes such that the water boils at ambient water temperature. And the bubbles collapse when they are carried down the blades to the area of ​​higher pressure, where the condensation of the vapor occurs.
    Cavitation is possible only on the propeller blades operating near the surface of the water.
    At the depth of 10 m. Cavitation is no longer possible.
    1. +4
      7 June 2019 10: 35
      At the depth of 10 m. Cavitation is no longer possible.


      Only adherents of the Latter Day Saint Poseidon sect. do not say, they have one of the sacral myths - a torpedo head that is being shot, which goes into the depths in supercavitation mode. Arguments do not affect them, but they can then run and minus, quietly.
      laughing
      1. 0
        12 June 2019 17: 54
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        At the depth of 10 m. Cavitation is no longer possible.
        Only adherents of the sect of St. Poseidon

        do not confuse cavitation and the possibility of creating a cavitation cavity for products
        supercavitating ammunition for large depths is quite possible, but for small and high-speed
    2. -4
      7 June 2019 14: 49
      Cavitation bubbles are mainly formed from air dissolved in water, and not from steam; in the first case, the pressure required in the bubble will be less in 800 than in the second.

      For example, a wake wake of a submarine (aerosol in sea water) is formed at a depth of up to 200 meters, while the speed of rotation of the impeller of the Poseidon water cannon at a stroke of 100 knots is an order of magnitude higher than the rotation speed of a larger submarine propeller at a stroke of 30 knots ...
    3. +2
      7 June 2019 15: 58
      Read more about cavitatsuyu than Wikipedia.
  18. -3
    7 June 2019 14: 38
    Quote: Avior
    American trap Nixie clings to any minesweeper and is ready to portray the enemy's sonar aircraft carrier better than the aircraft carrier itself. And even more so if there are no hydroacoustics in the pursuer

    In order to imitate the hydroacoustic noise of an aircraft carrier, you need to have a noise generator with a power of the order of power of an aircraft carrier's SSU, I'm not talking about the spectral composition of this noise, which is strictly individual for each ship. Therefore, the traps are not used by third-party minesweepers, but by the aircraft carriers themselves and the escort destroyers to divert torpedoes in the near zone of the PLO, and even then the traps have recently been replaced by anti-torpedoes due to the very low effectiveness of the first ones.

    In connection with the transition to a purely software classification of sea targets based on the accumulation of hydroacoustic signals over a period of tens of minutes of target tracking and comparing the accumulated information with the acoustic portraits of targets stored in the database, hydroacoustics were left out of business - this is precisely the possibility of transition from inhabited by uninhabited underwater vehicles in the person of the Russian Poseidon and the American Orca.
    1. +4
      7 June 2019 19: 18
      In order to simulate the sonar noise of an aircraft carrier, you need to have a noise generator with a power equal to the power of the acoustic radiation AUG. It’s not so much ...
      1. -4
        7 June 2019 19: 40
        I will not argue, because it is known about the inefficiency of hydroacoustic traps per se.
        1. +1
          8 June 2019 15: 28
          Quote: Operator
          aware of the inefficiency of sonar traps per se.

          YOU are not in the subject
          ABSOLUTELY
    2. +2
      8 June 2019 00: 35
      In order to simulate the sonar noise of an aircraft carrier, you need to have a noise generator with a power of the order of the power of the GSO aircraft carrier, not to mention the spectral composition of this noise, which is strictly individual for each ship.

      do you, apparently, think that the GSU on the aircraft carrier is just to create sonar noise, since all the power is going to it? what an interesting concept, never heard of. That’s why they put the GSU! good
      And what do you think, why do you put processors in towed traps, in Nixies, and in those that are currently being developed, like the S2170 Surface Ship Torpedo Defense or the DCL Technology Demonstrator program?
      By the way, I'll tell you how to accurately simulate the sonar noise of an aircraft carrier - you need to record it and scroll through it. And you will
      spectral composition of this noise, which is strictly individual for each ship.

      any sonar will confirm, and the computer is even more so.
      Therefore, the traps are used not by third-party minesweepers, but by the aircraft carriers and escort destroyers themselves to retrieve torpedoes in the near PLO zone, and even then traps have recently been replaced by torpedoes due to the very low efficiency of the former.

      I’ll tell you a secret - Americans put the same AN ​​/ SLQ-25 on aircraft carriers and minesweepers, they generally have such an approach to unification, only on aircraft carriers there are not one, but several. and they all can easily, inter alia, imitate the operation of the propellers of any ship.
      and nobody is going to shoot them. despite your belief in their inefficiency.
      on the contrary - they cherish, cherish and constantly expand their functions - recently they turned into a mini-HAK.
      The AN / SLQ-25B, in comparison with previous models, has a receiving sonar array for detecting submarines and approaching torpedoes, as well as an active jamming system that receives, amplifies and radiates active homing torpedoes in the opposite direction.

      For hydroacoustic masking of ships, the Americans, by the way, have a Masker system - air supply to the screws and the bottom, which lubricates the sonar portrait.
      and one more nuance, from the fact that the boat hears AUG from afar does not at all mean that it will be able to provide a classification of the target from the same distance. You need to come much closer with a big move, audible from afar, in order to first make sure that these are AUG signals, and not a supertanker or someone else in an ocean rushing to the port ..
      And in order to be sure that it’s for sure that AUG or Nixie is twisting the recordings, you also need to look at the periscope. Is there a periscope on Poseidon?
      In connection with the transition to a purely software classification of sea targets based on the accumulation of sonar signals for a period of tens of minutes of tracking the target and comparing the accumulated information with acoustic portraits of targets in the database

      it is for the "target" - either an aircraft carrier, or Nixie, for such an automatic (and not yet existing in nature, by the way) GAK, there is no difference.
      and no need to confuse- Orcs did it only to try to track submarines that do not hide with false signals (and with NK it’s very different, as you understand), and drones of these pure water experiment without weapons, and you believe without any experiments to do the same on the device with nuclear charge and atomic reactor. And what kind of failure did Poseidon sail to Kronstadt? Nobody checked.
      The Tomahawks have a navigation system that has been tested on thousands of instances in real combat launches, with triple duplication, on principles that have long been tested, but even then there are failures, Tomahawks fly unknown, and you believe that nobody has tested the system even in greenhouse conditions so far unused principles put on a device with a nuclear charge. Fantasy!
      hi
  19. -6
    7 June 2019 14: 43
    Quote: Vladimir Postnikov
    this fantasy

    "This fantasy" is based on the topography of the Earth's gravitational field and the installation of a gravimeter on board the UUV, which allows it to go anywhere in the World Ocean with an accuracy of 200 meters.

    Similar gravimeters are also installed on board hypersonic aircraft of the Zircon and Avangard type, as well as warheads for ballistic missiles that are not equipped with astrocorrection.
    1. +2
      7 June 2019 17: 16
      Quote: Operator
      "This fantasy" is based on the topography of the Earth's gravitational field and the installation of a gravimeter on board the UUV, which allows it to go anywhere in the World Ocean with an accuracy of 200 meters.
      Similar gravimeters are also installed on board hypersonic aircraft of the Zircon and Avangard type, as well as warheads for ballistic missiles that are not equipped with astrocorrection.

      Arrived. Read: https://rg.ru/2017/10/08/v-rf-sozdadut-sistemu-navigacii-po-gravitacionnym-poliam.html
      One quote from this article:
      Moreover, the creation of such a system is a complex, multi-level process. For example, the creation of a map of gravimetric fields is supposed to be carried out in three stages.
      The key word here is "assumed", and the article itself is dated in the fall of 2017. And you already have "spaceships plowing the vastness of the Universe." In addition, for an underwater drone, this very global map compiled from satellites will not be enough, because the speed of an underwater drone is relatively low.
      I do not know anything about the navigation systems of Zircon and Vanguard and maps of gravitational fields for them, but they are hardly applicable for relatively slow-moving Poseidons.
    2. +1
      8 June 2019 00: 39
      the first thing you need to try out such a system on airplanes is the most reasonable solution, if it’s not a fantasy.
      can you give a link to such systems?
    3. 0
      10 June 2019 12: 20
      Similar gravimeters are also installed on board hypersonic aircraft such as Zircon and Avangard.


      Andryusho, tell me, when were you allowed to look at Zircon? And on Vanguard? Well, please the audience. laughing
  20. 0
    7 June 2019 15: 50
    I wonder why Mr. Timokhin in the same style does not break the Orc? Stupid unless the Yankees know that such devices are detected and destroyed at any depth ???
    Who prevents the same Poseidon from increasing the volume and transferring it to electromotion ?? It seemed to me that the most difficult thing was the reactor. Yes, and it is not clear why we always have problems with the ATG surface-submarine warrant, and they never have a small-sized PA?
    1. +1
      7 June 2019 17: 35
      Quote: Rafale
      I wonder why Mr. Timokhin in the same style does not break the Orc? Stupid unless the Yankees know that such devices are detected and destroyed at any depth ???

      Why are you comparing your finger to another part of the body? There are completely different projects, one of which is a worker and has already gone into a small series (4 pcs.), And the other does not yet exist.
      One is claimed to be a fast-moving monster, and the other is a slow tortoise. One diesel-electric, the other nuclear, one with satellite correction - the other HZ with which.
      If you just want to "run over" to Timokhin, then look for another topic. This "sin" is definitely not his.
    2. +1
      7 June 2019 17: 58
      Orka - low-speed, deep-water unmanned vehicle.
      Experimental. Americans have never boasted
      its capabilities, because they are (today) unknown to them.
      They still do not really know how the device will be used.
      1. 0
        8 June 2019 15: 30
        Quote: voyaka uh
        Orka - low-speed, deep-water unmanned vehicle.
        Experimental. Americans have never boasted
        its capabilities, because they are (today) unknown to them.
        They still do not really know how the device will be used.

        Orca very much looks like "diverting attention" away from TEM
        for example those of which MASSOVO have already been practiced really on ICEX-19
        1. +1
          8 June 2019 20: 12
          What is ICEX-19?
          1. +1
            10 June 2019 11: 52
            Teaching on the ice war in the Arctic. Previously focused on the subconscious application of guided torpedoes, but now the topic of robots has been flooded with pluses for torpedoes.
          2. 0
            12 June 2019 17: 51
            "Arctic torpedo scandal" (here)
            https://topwar.ru/156811-arkticheskij-torpednyj-skandal.html
    3. +1
      8 June 2019 00: 44
      I don’t know what Timokhin thinks about it, but there is an obvious answer to your question, because Orka is trying to preliminarily track submarines that are not covering themselves with noise and imitators, they cannot actively counteract detection (and ACG just can), their main Weapons are stealth, Orka does not carry any weapons, let alone nuclear weapons, and it is intended to be used only for preliminary searches; the final decision will be made by sonar on an airplane arriving.
      hi
    4. +1
      8 June 2019 16: 44
      Quote: Rafale
      Who prevents the same Poseidon to increase the volume and transfer to electromotive ??

      for example the fact that it will be already ALL OTHER PPA
    5. 0
      10 June 2019 12: 23
      And why should I break the Orc, and most importantly - why? I’m worried that we are throwing money away, and when the Americans throw them out, I’m just glad.

      Orca is a heavy NPA, apparently secretive, it is quite a promising topic, although the parameters of the Orcs themselves are completely unknown to me, but the direction in which the Americans go is quite promising.
  21. +4
    7 June 2019 16: 11
    I read the article and comments .. the impression is twofold .. on the one hand - in the article I learned a lot of interesting things for which the author - unconditional thanks .. on the other hand, after the comments, you see frank sub-emissions in the article and you begin to understand that in some places Timokhin is even very right .. and the author talks about Lianas already conducting observations throughout the Earth, begins to raise doubts ..
    In general, I think the article is informative as the basis of the principles for detecting submarines .. and the link to Poseidon in it is at least premature in conclusions, despite the fact that there are too many unknowns ..
    1. 0
      8 June 2019 15: 31
      Quote: Level 2 Advisor
      In general, I think the article is cognitive as the basis for the principles of PL detection.

      the staff afftortoroff and with these serious problems
      Theme do not own ABSOLUTELY
      compare for example the graph of the speed of sound in this OPUS and my article on "Status-6"
  22. -2
    7 June 2019 17: 29
    Quote: Vladimir Postnikov
    "assumed" and the article itself is dated fall 2017

    A complete map of the gravitational field is not yet available, but there are already large fragments of this map in the most critical regions. For several years remaining before the adoption of hypersonic weapons, satellites with gravimeters will fly around the Earth, oceanographic vessels will sail over the required areas - and it will be possible to charge gravimetric landmarks "Zirconov", "Poseidons" and "Vanguards" (as well as GOS " Calibers "and X-50 in sea version).

    PS There is an opinion that gravimetric GOS of Chinese ballistic anti-ship missiles with hypersonic warhead is induced by the mass anomaly of the American aircraft carrier bully
    1. +3
      8 June 2019 00: 00
      It is believed that the gravimetric seeker of Chinese ballistic anti-ship missiles with a hypersonic warhead is aimed at the mass anomaly of the American aircraft carrier bully

      whose opinion is it? Nick Perumov? Ray Bradbury? Bushkov? Lukyanenko?
      hi
    2. +3
      8 June 2019 15: 32
      Quote: Operator
      For several years, remaining before the adoption of hypersonic weapons, satellites with gravimeters will fly around the Earth,

      fool
      1. 0
        10 June 2019 13: 37
        And returning to the planet will cross the Bolshoi Theater! Twice!
  23. 0
    7 June 2019 21: 26
    Quote: Vladimir Postnikov
    If you just want to "run over" to Timokhin,

    I want objectivity. Never witnessed the Poseidon sect, read his references to criticism of the project (and largely agree). But he has too one-sided presentation of the material - if NATO (USA) - then they will certainly "discover", "overwhelm with anti-torpedoes", "shoot the carrier at the pier", etc. If something is ours, then a "roaring cow", "SOSUS will find 100500 km ". At the same time, he refused to answer my question in the last thread "how exactly NATO PLO intercepts Poseidon", referring to the secrecy of Poseidon's performance characteristics (!). Although what is secret here, all the main characteristics are given one way or another.
    Questions about TSU also without an answer - apparently AUG at full speed is a much more secretive goal than Poseidon.
    It is also doubtful that there are no calls to cut SSBNs on needles, too, because in this case they will be "shot at the exit from the bay."
    1. 0
      7 June 2019 23: 21
      Quote: Rafale
      I want objectivity. Never a witness to the sect Poseidonov, read his links to criticism of the project (and largely agree).

      On the contrary, I am the author of this concept. This is my concept, which was proposed in the 1999 year. It was considered at the very top twice (in 1999-2000, and in 2002 after my repeated appeal, as a result of the US withdrawing from the ABM Treaty). Only in the original there was no completely idiotic idea of ​​a tsunami, an atomic engine, and a carrier of drones.
      And, moreover, it was proposed not to build autonomous attack submarine carriers, but to build conventional "trucks", creating a transport system suitable not only for the Arctic, and thereby creating a groundwork for the construction of shock, transport, and patrol drones. I already gave a link to the answers of the then Chairman of the Marine Scientific Committee.
      Therefore, I have my own position on this issue. I look forward to the success of underwater drones (they will certainly be, if not Poseidon, then something else), and my position is closer to the author of this article than to Mr. Timokhin.
      1. 0
        12 June 2019 17: 50
        Quote: Vladimir Postnikov
        And I am the opposite - the author of this concept. This is my concept, which was proposed in 1999 году

        You will not die from modesty laughing
        Gusev (who, with Akopov and Butov) was preparing an appeal to the Government in 1983g. probably in the next world from your statements laughs well
        1. 0
          13 June 2019 01: 45
          Quote: Fizik M
          You certainly will not die of modesty laughing

          You certainly will not die from modesty. In 1983, there were no prerequisites for autonomous underwater vehicles. Then there could be only torpedoes with rigid logic. But in 1999 could already be.
          Can you imagine a copy of this appeal by Gusev / Akopov / Butov? If not, it’s better not to trend on this topic, and continue to lobby for specific torpedoes.
    2. +1
      8 June 2019 15: 34
      Quote: Rafale
      too one-sided presentation of the material - if NATO (USA) - then they will certainly "discover", "flood with anti-torpedoes", "shoot the carrier at the pier", etc.

      there was no "one-sided pitch"
      the question was considered OBJECTIVELY
      Yes, strategic torpedoes (heavy duty NPA) HAS A MEANING
      - but subject to the possibility of placement on MASS media, and most importantly HIDDEN devices (and not delirium "Status-6")
      and it was originally stated
      1. 0
        10 June 2019 11: 55
        As it was said there, shove an RTG into an electro-torpedo and let him row for half a year towards the goal - SILENT.
  24. +1
    7 June 2019 21: 29
    Having read the article and the comments, I realized that there is a classic dispute between the employees of two offices (possibly a research institute or an NGO) about the direction of the development of the Navy, one for Poseidon and the other for the classic surface, as they argued in the union what kind of liquid-fuel or solid-fuel missiles are needed. Each sandpiper praises its swamp! (financing is drawn)
    The arguments of both sides are convincing, and in my opinion they vainly blundered Timokhin, if he carefully read he objected to the case and not only now, but with many of his articles over the past six months. But it’s also clear that we have nothing to drown AUG except for VKS, that's why light heads think about other options.
    I hope that they argue out of patriotism and the desire to make our sleep calmer, and not because of the dough. I would like truth to be born in this dispute!
    1. 0
      8 June 2019 15: 35
      Quote: Storekeeper
      there is a classic argument between

      there is no "dispute"
      afftors (Andryusha and Co.) of this opus are incompetent from the word absolutely
      compare for example the graphs of the speed of sound in this opus and my article on "Status", and see just an epic comment wassat allegedly "afftor" above laughing
  25. +1
    7 June 2019 21: 37
    According to the results of the article, two questions arose.
    1) If nuclear submarines are detected at such distances, then what could be the problems with the detection of AUG?
    2) Is it possible to install any oscillatory devices on the submarine’s hull to distort the trace on the surface (to give it a pseudorandom character) in order to prevent the boat from being detected by radar, even at the cost of some increase in noise.
    1. -3
      7 June 2019 23: 03
      AUG from an aircraft carrier, a dozen escort destroyers and one cover submarine are a huge sonar rattle that can be heard over 1000 km. As was correctly noted in the comments, the acoustic power of the screw-motor groups of a dozen ships is such that you cannot disguise it with any sonar false targets.

      The trail of a submarine on the surface of the sea is detected by the radar only in calm when the submarine follows at a depth of no more than 100 meters at a speed of at least 15 nodes. In other words, if the dislocation area of ​​a nuclear submarine is shallow and the sea is calm, then the speed should be reduced to 14 nodes without using any additional devices.
      1. +2
        7 June 2019 23: 57
        AUG from an aircraft carrier, a dozen escort destroyers and one cover submarine are a huge sonar rattle that can be heard over 1000 km. As was correctly noted in the comments, the acoustic power of the screw-motor groups of a dozen ships is such that you cannot disguise it with any sonar false targets.

        yeah. only now if there will be a dozen or two such AUGs, it will be possible to roll the dice, what is real, what is false.
        and whether the real is heard beyond the false.
        1. -2
          8 June 2019 02: 54
          If NPA with one jet when operating one reactor with realizable electric power 100 KW can be heard at a distance of 1 km, then an aircraft carrier with four propellers when operating two reactors with realizable electric power 100000 KW (50% of the available) can be heard at a distance 1000 km.

          The ability of a small-sized false target emitter to correctly reproduce the sonar portrait of a large-sized aircraft carrier (four large-diameter propellers, four turbo-gear units, two sets of nuclear reactor pumps) at the required power level in the frequency range from 1 to 1000 Hz raises reasonable doubts.
          1. +1
            8 June 2019 07: 35
            If NPA with one jet when operating one reactor with realizable electric power 100 KW can be heard at a distance of 1 km, then an aircraft carrier with four propellers when operating two reactors with realizable electric power 100000 KW (50% of the available) can be heard at a distance 1000 km.

            with such an approach as yours, if a Zaporozhets with an engine power of 40 hp has a maximum speed of 100 km per hour, then Lamborghini Urus with an engine in 650 should go to supersonic. smile
            such analogies do not work in technology.
            And to hear and classify is very different things.
            hi
            1. -5
              8 June 2019 13: 21
              The Lexins brothers described a case of noise finding of an American nuclear submarine at a distance of 700 km by modulating low-frequency noise from a commercial submarine at a distance of more than 1000 km. Those. the ship itself was perfectly audible at a distance that exceeded the aircraft carrier detection distance I had declared (despite the fact that the power of an aircraft carrier's GSU is a multiple of the ship's power supply system).

              Hydroacoustic spurious targets equipped with a low-power emitter with a simplified noise-generating spectrum can deceive only hydroacoustic homing torpedoes, whose antenna consists of only 15-20 hydrophones, and the computing and storage capabilities of computer equipment are strictly limited by the displacement of the torpedoes.

              The diameter of the hull of the Poseidon is three times the diameter of the torpedo hull, so the size of its hydroacoustic antenna is an order of magnitude larger than the size of the torpedo antenna. The displacement of the NPA is 20 times greater than the displacement of the torpedo, thus the size and functionality of the Poseidon hardware and software complex is larger, including the ability to classify targets by their noise portrait.

              Last but not least, to simulate an aircraft carrier, a false sonar target should be equipped with its own propeller engine installation or be towed by another ship. In any case, the noise from its own propeller-engine installation or the noise of the propeller-engine installation of the towing vehicle will distort the noise spectrum of the false target emitter and reveal an attempt to imitate an aircraft carrier.

              In other words, progress in hydroacoustics for the purpose of searching for submarines played a cruel joke with surface ships, which themselves began to be discovered at distances of hundreds and thousands of kilometers.

              As they say - do not swarm to another pit laughing
              1. -3
                8 June 2019 13: 30
                Linear dimensions of sonar false target AN / SLQ-25 Nixie

              2. 0
                8 June 2019 15: 41
                Quote: Operator
                The Lexins brothers described a case of noise finding of the American submarine at a distance of 700 km due to

                brothers Lexiny very serious problems with objectivity
                VERY serious
                Quote: Operator
                Hydroacoustic spurious targets equipped with a low-power emitter with a simplified noise-generating spectrum can deceive only hydroacoustic homing torpedoes, whose antenna consists of only 15-20 hydrophones, and the computing and storage capabilities of computer equipment are strictly limited by the displacement of the torpedoes.

                fool
                please continue! laughing
                I haven't been laughing so long ago laughing
                you (your collectifff wassat ) made this weekend! laughing
                Quote: Operator
                The diameter of the hull of the NPA "Poseidon" is three times the diameter of the torpedo hull, so the size of its hydroacoustic antenna is an order of magnitude larger than the size of the torpedo antenna

                YOU are "your arithmetic" wassat in MAI passed? laughing
                alternatively however lol
            2. 0
              10 June 2019 12: 29
              with such an approach as yours, if a Zaporozhets with an engine power of 40 hp has a maximum speed of 100 km per hour, then Lamborghini Urus with an engine in 650 should go to supersonic.


              On the near light! In water!!! Or even on superluminal, so that the glow of Cherenkov be knocked out of it immediately laughing
          2. 0
            8 June 2019 15: 49
            Quote: Operator
            If NPA with one jet when operating one reactor with realizable electric power 100 KW can be heard at a distance of 1 km, then an aircraft carrier with four propellers when operating two reactors with realizable electric power 100000 KW (50% of the available) can be heard at a distance 1000 km.


            Listen, "maishnik from TsPSh" wassat You already got your dense nonsense!
            The story is real: BS of the boat of the 3rd generation, with a digital (and very good) SJC "Skat-3", surfacing for a communication session - when leaving the water of the periscope head, while examining the sector, the Commander saw through the eyepiece a PART OF THE BOARD (all did not fit) of the OCEAN CONTAINER TRUCK (for 40 thousand tons) on the move (and they will have more than 20 knots on the line), until the very last moment there were no targets on the SAC.

            Quote: Operator
            The ability of a small-sized false target emitter to correctly reproduce the sonar portrait of a large-sized aircraft carrier (four large-diameter propellers, four turbo-gear units, two sets of nuclear reactor pumps) at the required power level in the frequency range from 1 to 1000 Hz raises reasonable doubts.

            you, you have no idea what you are writing
            the same "Los" is easily disguised as a nuclear icebreaker
            and their GNATS hardware is a brilliant thing (even though it was discovered under it).
            And "for reference" - I know the question not from "books", but incl. in the central post and cabin of hydroacoustics on the submarine
        2. 0
          10 June 2019 12: 13
          If only, if only ... Have you ever seen such teachings?
      2. 0
        8 June 2019 15: 37
        Quote: Operator
        AUG from an aircraft carrier, a dozen escort destroyers and one cover submarine are a huge sonar rattle that can be heard over 1000 km. As was correctly noted in the comments, the acoustic power of the screw-motor groups of a dozen ships is such that you cannot disguise it with any sonar false targets.

        YOU are not in the subject
        ABSOLUTELY
        Quote: Operator
        Ongood track NPS

        fool
        what trace?!?!? laughing
  26. 0
    8 June 2019 09: 58
    What people just won’t come up with to kill people
  27. 0
    8 June 2019 20: 05
    Thank you for the article, intelligibly and with interesting content about the capabilities of current military equipment in detecting military targets in the sea and ocean.
    1. 0
      12 June 2019 17: 46
      Quote: Anchonsha
      Thank you for the article, intelligibly and with interesting content about the capabilities of current military equipment in detecting military targets in the sea and ocean.

      fool
      this is not an "article" but an illiterate nonsense of incompetent afftors
  28. +1
    10 June 2019 12: 24
    In general, I am glad that fewer and fewer people are being led to this clowning.

    "And pink ponies, riding Poseidon")))))
    1. -1
      11 June 2019 08: 43
      Yes, I am really glad that fewer people are being led to the clownery of forum trolls, who have ceased to be designers of 20 complexes for years, and other liquidators on vacation.
      1. 0
        12 June 2019 17: 45
        Quote: Newone
        Yes, I am really glad that fewer people are being led to the clownery of forum trolls, who have ceased to be designers of 20 complexes for years, and other liquidators on vacation.

        I fight, I will disappoint you.
        I allowed myself to rest only for the last few days (and that is because in the coming days "hot events" are coming)
  29. -1
    11 June 2019 10: 28
    Quote: xax

    Even if the article was written for the sake of PR, one cannot but admit that it is very interesting and informative.
    Also, one cannot but pay attention to the fact that the criticism addressed to this article (so far mainly from you) is (so far?) Pointless spraying of saliva, which for the reader once again speaks in favor of the veracity of the article. If the author of the article is deceiving us, then this level of criticism only helps him in this.

    Great comment! The value of the article and the quality of the comments that make it neutral are more attractive and accurate.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. 0
      12 June 2019 22: 43
      Quote: Anton
      Great comment!

      This is for example this one of this article
      https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2019-06/thumbs/1559769254_13.jpg
      like the rest of the "mixer"
  30. +1
    11 June 2019 10: 56
    I read all the comments and realized that there are groups of authors. On the one hand, Operator (Andrey Vasilyev) and those who are accused of publishing their materials under his nickname, including this article. On the other hand, timokhin-aa (Alexander Timokhin) and Fizik M (Maxim Klimov). The materials of the last two are also very interesting, and raise serious problems of the fleet. Like many of the readers here, I am a complete dilettante in naval matters. Review articles such as this one help get you into the subject area. Comments are almost exclusively from Timokhin and Klimov. And here's the problem - they are disgusting in their form. VO is a public resource, and here an emphasized contemptuous attitude towards each other is inappropriate. Arguments and counter articles are appropriate here. Absorbing a huge amount of bile poured out by Timokhin and Klimov, I involuntarily recalled one historical character - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin. It was he who wrote sarcastic and acrimonious answers now to the Mensheviks, now to the opportunists, and to everyone. And, it would seem, he fought for the truth. But the truth does not splash with saliva, does not pour bile, does not exercise contempt, even if someone is openly lying. True calmly, often not even paying attention to the lie, oppresses OWN line, writes his own materials. What is the task of truth? To humiliate your opponent? No. To convey yourself to a grateful reader. Timokhin and Klimov write calm and good materials, but suddenly in the comments they appear as completely different people. Why? It is impermissible for a specialist to "go mad", and there is no need for him.
    Now to the point. Good Poseidon or not, you can argue, and it is necessary. Without disclosing the secret "flight" data, which, as I understand it, none of the authors has, if only because the complex has not yet been tested. To be afraid of the organs that will pinch you for the calculations that a freshman can make from open data, and nod meaningfully in their direction? Well, you decide on what is a state secret and what is not, and do not violate it. And the rest is straightforward. We're not children here, to be afraid of a policeman. The same applies to the fact that, like, there will be no more of my materials on this resource, because they are all against me at the same time. Now there are a lot of resources, you can create your own, no problem.
    One more thing: is everything bad in our country? The answer to this question is a litmus test of the true aspirations of the authors.
    In general, the impression of human qualities of those who should be the authority of the issues of shipbuilding and shipbuilding.
    And the last one. The country also needs to scare the enemy. What is used for this - a bluff or a real product, is decided by the country's leadership. Both ways are needed and good.
    1. 0
      11 June 2019 11: 22
      Thanks to US Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, the bluff in the military field is now called a scare strategy. bully

      When it comes to assessing the effectiveness of the Poseidon UVA, only one thing is required - confirmation from the RF Ministry of Defense of a small value (~ 5%) of negative buoyancy or the possibility of its regulation using a ballast tank to ensure UUV movement at low speed with maximum hydroacoustic stealth.

      All other technical parameters of the Poseidon (the device of the main control system, the power of the nuclear charge, the type of hull cover, etc.) are beyond the competence of the former commander of the mine-torpedo warhead of the nuclear submarine of the Antey project M. Klimov and the humanities specialist A. Timokhin.
      1. 0
        12 June 2019 17: 21
        Quote: Operator
        confirmation from the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation of a small size (~ 5%) of negative buoyancy or the possibility of its regulation using a ballast tank to ensure the movement of NLA at low speed with maximum sonar secretion.

        fool
        understandable ... session of "alternative physics" ... "ren-TV" "rules" laughing
        Quote: Operator
        are beyond the competence of the former commander of the mine and torpedo warhead of the nuclear submarine of the Antey project, M. Klimov

        Monsieur Affluors! YOUR "ratings" wassat just pathetic and wretched because of your absolute denseness and incompetence in the subject laughing
        Andrew and Co., YOU are not tired of the face in a puddle, again and again?
        YOU bravely caught for a long lying tongue (by the way, not only and so much I;)) whipped to the fullest, is this not enough for YOU? Or "tugriks" "oblige"?
    2. 0
      12 June 2019 17: 41
      Quote: Anton
      Review articles, such as this one, help to enter the subject area.

      this is not a "review article" - this is DESA
      in view of the ABSOLUTE incompetence of "Andryusha and Co."
      example:
      afftors wassat
      https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2019-06/thumbs/1559769254_13.jpg
      I have
      https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2019-03/1552202935_14_2.png
      Quote: Anton
      The truth is calm, often not even paying attention to a lie, oppression of its own line, writes its own materials.

      https://topwar.ru/157964-samaja-postydnaja-problema-vmf-jeks-admiraly-vysokopostavlennye-lobbisty.html
      see comments
      https://topwar.ru/157559-apkr-severodvinsk-proekt-885-jasen-sdan-vmf-s-kriticheskimi-dlja-ego-boesposobnosti-nedodelkami-protivotorpednoj-zaschity-podlodok-vmf-rf-net.html
      https://topwar.ru/156486-chto-ne-tak-s-nashimi-tralschikami.html
      etc.
      Quote: Anton
      One more thing: is everything bad in our country? The answer to this question is a litmus test of the true aspirations of the authors.
      In general, the impression of human qualities of those who should be the authority of the issues of shipbuilding and shipbuilding.

      1.
      OUR COUNTRY IS ON THE THRESHOLD OF SERIOUS TESTS. MILITARY DANGER IS REAL.
      WHEN WE ARE NOT READY TO THIS AND NOT READY FOR A WHOLE SERIES OF CRITICAL DIRECTIONS AND QUESTIONS.

      And the "litmus test" is that there are those who understand this and do to be ready, and there are those who "ride pink ponies"
      2.
      Painful (or rather pathetic) performance from the "pink ponies".
      And human qualities are manifested at least in readiness and ability to PUT RIGEST and critical issues
  31. kig
    +1
    11 June 2019 16: 25
    as a guideline, the crew of 13 people of the modern container ship Emma Mærs can serve
    I apologize for writing off the topic, but such a figure scratches my sea eye, as completely implausible. It appeared due to the fact that the Maersk company, having built a truly unique ship at that time, described it everywhere in a superlative degree. The number of "13 people" is most likely indicated in the so-called Minimum Safe Manning - a document issued by the maritime administration of the state whose flag the ship is carrying. And this means only that Danish Maritime Authority believes and admits that 13 people can ensure the safe operation, navigation and other life of the vessel. Let's leave it on their conscience. Any sailor will tell you that 13 people are likely to be enough to walk from port to port, but operating a ship that goes through half the world, visiting 15-20 ports in a circular voyage, is simply impossible with such a crew. In fact, the crew of Emma and her sisters was always 22-24 people.
    1. -2
      11 June 2019 16: 58
      For comparison with Emma Mærs: the Poseidon's crew is 0 people - it's not for nothing that the GDP constantly talks about the importance of artificial intelligence laughing

      Modern GAS work in fully automatic mode, like a radar.

      Against this background, the minimalist crew of the submarine can be assessed as four watches for 2 people (pilot and armament operator) each, plus the commander, mechanic and doctor, in total - 11 people.
      1. kig
        0
        12 June 2019 04: 13
        This is an ideal case when nothing breaks and nothing needs to be checked and tuned. And he is ideal because ideal, that is unattainable. Read about Lyra: the small number of crews, one of the trump cards of the project, has led to the fact that it was impossible to service the boat at sea with such a small number of people
        1. -2
          12 June 2019 10: 30
          Half a century later, this ideal case has arrived - in the form of the Poseidon and Orca unmanned underwater vehicles.
          1. kig
            +1
            12 June 2019 16: 05
            Although Poseidon is called an unmanned underwater vehicle, it is still not a boat. His task is to find a target and explode, that is, it is rather a torpedo. But Orka is another matter.
          2. 0
            12 June 2019 17: 09
            Quote: kig
            This is an ideal case when nothing breaks and nothing needs to be checked and tuned. And the ideal is therefore ideal because it is unattainable.

            Yes exactly
            Quote: Operator
            Half a century later, this ideal case has arrived - in the form of the Poseidon and Orca unmanned underwater vehicles.

            just smile fool
      2. 0
        12 June 2019 17: 13
        Quote: Operator
        Modern GAS work in fully automatic mode.

        fool
        acoustics already reduced?
        the presence of a number of "automatic devices" in the software GAS and GAK can hardly replace the operator
        these are deliberately "truncated" modes (and even for a GAS type "Packet-A" the question of "automaton" is rather ambiguous)
        Quote: Operator
        Against this background, the minimalist crew of the submarine can be assessed as four watches

        YOU are incompetent from the word ABSOLUTELY
        starting with what on the submarine usually 3 combat shifts (watch 4 hours)
        on some projects developed on the 2 shift (watch 6 watch)
  32. -2
    12 June 2019 19: 30
    Quote: Fizik M
    PZK

    Maxim, teach the materiel - how deep is the slam-shut valve in the North Sea laughing
    1. 0
      12 June 2019 22: 40
      Quote: Operator
      learn materiel - how deep is the slam-shut valve in the North Sea

      Mousia Yakobi maishnik! In your parochial school geography in general taught?
      or do YOU ​​have "google on coupons"? lol
      before you smack such nonsense, take a look at the depths of the North Sea laughing
  33. -2
    12 June 2019 19: 39
    Quote: Fizik M
    GREAT OVERLOADING for him [NPA Poseidon] is inevitable

    Maksimka, learn the materiel - what is the flight weight of the Burevestnik missile launcher, on which the reactor is installed the same as the Poseidon rocket ship, and what is the specific power of the Mk41 thermonuclear charge.
    1. -1
      12 June 2019 22: 38
      Quote: Operator
      KR "Burevestnik", which has the same reactor as RV "Poseidon",

      fool
      you are this thing wassat not exactly with the 6 chambers writing? lol
  34. 0
    13 June 2019 01: 01
    Quote: Fizik M
    the depths of the North Sea take an interest
    NONSENSE

    And the depth of the PZK in the neighboring Norwegian Sea is suitable for NPS sample 1962 of the year? laughing

    Study the speech of the Civil Code of the RF Armed Forces of March 1, 2018, and then we will talk about the Poseidon and Burevestnik reactors.
    1. -1
      2 July 2019 16: 13
      Quote: Operator
      then we'll talk about the Poseidon and Petrel reactors.

      with YOU to "speak"? About what? sorry but i have no medical education
  35. The comment was deleted.
  36. 0
    14 June 2019 20: 58
    Good afternoon, comrades, let me suggest a congenial solution to the problem voiced by a respected author. In order not to overflow from empty to empty, please listen (briefly): PLs do not continue to carry strategic nuclear weapons in northern shipyards !!! transfer their production to Makhachkala, combat duty take place on the CASPIAN SEA !!!
    I am waiting for your opinion
  37. 0
    15 December 2023 22: 51
    While reading the article, I remembered an episode from the movie “Remove the Periscope”: “He dropped two 10-cent coins and a quarter,” says experienced sonar Lovaselli, listening to the Orlando boat located closer to the surface.
    This, of course, is a comical exaggeration, but the fight against the internal noise of a submarine is indeed a serious problem. In this regard, the following thought: what if we add another hull to the boat, in addition to being light and durable? If you place another one, quite thin, inside a durable hull (it will have to withstand an internal pressure of only 1 atm), all the rooms and mechanisms of the boat are placed inside this hull, and the space between it and the durable hull is vacuumized, then it will be impossible for sounds from inside to escape into the water . Of course, shock absorption and sound absorption at the points of connection between the internal (let's call it the Dewar) and the durable casing will pose a difficult technical challenge. But with the help of modern materials this problem can be solved.

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