27 air battle February 2019 of the year over Kashmir. There are more questions than answers.

70
The air battle that took place on 27 on February of this year in the sky of Kashmir was one of the most talked about air battles of late. However, in fairness, we note that today, fortunately, there are few such fights in the world, so any of them will be the subject of controversy and reasoning.

As you know, the Indian and Pakistani Air Force combat aircraft seized over Kashmir. Unfortunately, neither one nor the other side provided a detailed description of the collision, which led to a lot of different speculations in the media, both foreign and Russian-speaking. All this, of course, created fertile ground for conjectures of the most surprising sense: for example, the Indian edition of International Business Times published an article in which the author tells that the Indian Air Force “overslept” the raid and had to respond by what happened nearby, as well as about the retreat (well, at least not a stampede, and thanks for that) Su-30MKI fighters from Pakistani F-16. Well, in India, of course, freedom of the press, however, we began to submit this material as “attempts with a cold head” to analyze what happened in the February-India border of 27 ”.



Let's try to figure out what could really happen that day.

prehistory


It all started 14 February 2019, when a convoy of Indian troops was attacked in Jammu and Kashmir. A suicide bomber committed a self-detonation, while 45 people died. Responsibility for the attack was assumed by the radical separatist group “Jaish-e-Muhammad” (“Army of Muhammad”), which has bases in Pakistan. For obvious reasons, the Indians did not want to put the brakes on the case, and February 26 launched an air strike on one of the “Army of Mohammed” camps located in the territory of Kashmir, controlled by Pakistan. As a result of a strike at a training camp in Balakot, according to NDTV, 300 terrorists were killed. Pakistan also said that the Indian Air Force did not kill a single person and did not cause damage to the infrastructure.



Apparently, those killed during the attack on the convoy were avenged a hundredfold. But, with all due respect to the motives of the Indians, we note that they actually used their armed forces on the territory of a sovereign state, which is Pakistan. And therefore it is difficult to be surprised that the next day the Pakistani Air Forces showed up with a retaliatory action.

Pakistan attacks


What happened in the future is rather difficult to understand, because, as mentioned above, neither India nor Pakistan gave an exhaustive description of the battle. It is precisely known that the planes of the Pakistani Air Forces struck, or at least tried to strike them on objects in India, more precisely, on certain objects located in that part of Kashmir that is under the control of India. It is indicated that from the Pakistani side participated 24 aircraft, including X-NUMX fighters F-8, X-NUMX French Mirage-16 and 4 Chinese JF-3 Thunder, as well as 4 other unnamed aircraft. The latter did not take part in the raid, but were in the air in the area of ​​operation and, apparently, carried out a long-range cover.

Most likely, the situation was as follows: the 16 of the Falcons, the Mirage and Groms (under the formidable name JF-17 Thunder hides a Chinese hand-made article based on the MiG-21) crossed the air line on the contact line between India and Pakistan in Kashmir and delivered their planned blow, after which they attempted to retreat into their airspace.


JF-17 "Thunder"


The remaining eight unknown aircraft remained over the territory of Pakistan, ready to support their strike group.

Indian Air Force actions


It is alleged that the invasion of Pakistani air forces into the airspace controlled by India, discovered an Indian plane, it happened in 09.45. Judging by some English-language sources, it was one of the DEWS aircraft available to the Indians, but which one is unclear. The Indian Air Force attempted to repel the invasion.



In total, the 8 of the Su-4MKI, the 30 Mirage 2 and another of the Bison 2000, which is one of the latest versions of the MiG-2, were able to pull down the 21 aircraft.



This is known reliably, but further solid guesses begin. According to the Indian media (NDTV channel), their planes arrived at the scene of action when the Pakistani strike group was already departing after the attack. This is very similar to the truth, because Pakistan clearly wanted to make a lightning rally of retribution, and not to unleash a large-scale conflict. Accordingly, the tactic "quickly entered Indian airspace - hit - and run home" is more than justified, especially since the targets were set relatively close to the border. The calculation, obviously, was that the planes of the Indian Air Force would not pursue Pakistani planes beyond their airspace. Well, if this happens, the Pakistani Air Force was ready for this - their strike group was insured by entire 8 aircraft, most likely F-16.

But back to the Indians. According to one version, the first MiG-21 came to the scene of action. Using data from the DRLO aircraft, these aircraft, at low altitude, approached the strike group of Pakistanis and then attacked. According to another version, the MiG-21 arrived in the combat area almost simultaneously with the rest of the combat aircraft, but the latter did not climb on the rampage. But a couple of MiG-21 rushed to the attack, ignoring the warning that the strike group of Pakistanis is covered with fighters.

As a result, the leading MiG, which was piloted by Abhinandan Varthaman, managed to take the outgoing F-16 into the sight and use a short-range R-73 air-to-air missile (or missiles?) On it. The Indians are confident that the Pakistani plane was shot down. As vice-marshal said at a press conference aviation Kapoor (approximate translation): "There is reliable evidence that Pakistan lost one F-16, but they cannot be presented to the general public for reasons of secrecy."

In response, Pakistani fighters fired 2 AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM missiles, and further opinions differ again. Some sources report that both missiles were fired at the lead of the MiG-21, one of them, Abhinandan Varthamman, was able to dodge, while the second hit his plane. According to another version, both MiG-21 fighters were fired, but the slave was able to evade the attacking missile, but the Abhinandan did not. In any case, it is reliably known only that the MiG-21, which was piloted by Vrthaman, was shot down.

Then, or perhaps simultaneously with the attack of the MiG-21, Pakistani fighters fired at AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM approaching Su-30МКИ using either 4 or 5 rockets, but they did not succeed. Initially, Indian media even claimed that Su-30MKI had been attacked by attacking missiles, but most likely this was a mistake of reporters - most likely it was that the Sushchek pilots, using anti-missile maneuvers and EW, managed to avoid defeat.

This, in fact, the fighting ended.

Losses


Pakistanis immediately announced that they shot down an Indian aircraft 2, without losing any of their own. The Indians seemed to have first reported that they had not suffered losses (according to some Russian-speaking sources), and claimed the downed F-16, but almost immediately recognized the loss of the MiG-21.

Most likely Pakistan lost the F-16, and India lost the MiG-21. Both aircraft fell on the territory controlled by Pakistan, therefore, in fact, there was a bike about two shot down Indian aircraft. The Pakistani military simply did not understand, considering both aircraft to be Indian, but in the presented photographs of one of them, the F-16 was identified by the characteristic equipment numbers.

27 air battle February 2019 of the year over Kashmir. There are more questions than answers.


True, for some reason the United States intervened. Their newspaper Foreign Policy (Foreign Policy) published an article entitled “Did India shoot down a Pakistani plane?” American experts say no, in which its author, Lara Seligman, argued that the Indian pilots did not shoot down any F-16. The evidence is the statement of two unnamed US officials of the Ministry of Defense. The point is this: according to the terms of the contract, on the basis of which the USA supplied F-16 to Pakistan, the Americans have the right to check the status of the aircraft they sold. And so, after the battle over Kashmir, the Pakistanis appealed to the United States with a request to recount the F-16, which the Americans did, and did not see any losses. At the same time, Foreign Policy notes that the F-16 of the Pakistani Air Force was acquired not only in the USA, but also in Jordan, where 13 machines of this type were purchased. But in the calculations of American officials and they are taken into account.

Thus, according to the Americans, the Indians invented their success. They see the reason for this in the fact that Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi does not want to lose her rating in the run-up to the all-Indian elections.

The version is, of course, interesting, but is it possible to trust the American calculations? According to the author of this article - it is impossible. On the one hand, Americans are certainly an interested party: it is quite beneficial for them to conceal the loss of the Pakistani F-16, especially in connection with attempts to sell planes of this type to India. Then it is completely unclear why all of a sudden Islamabad, currently conflicting with the United States, suddenly turned to them for help.

The fact is that Washington imposed partial sanctions against Pakistan for Islamabad's refusal to provide its airspace for American flights. drones. This had a very negative impact on the state of the country's air fleet and, as far as one can understand, not all aircraft purchased in the United States managed to be kept in the Air Force. As far as the author knows, the total number of F-16s delivered by the US was 78 units, thus, taking into account 13 Jordanian vehicles, their total number should have been 91 units. At the same time, Foreign Policy, citing data from Aviation Week & Space Technology, reports that there are only 73 aircraft in the Pakistani Air Force - and this is taking into account Jordanian aircraft.

In other words, it turned out that as a result of the ban on the corresponding supply and maintenance, the F-16 air force of Pakistan for a while left the eyes of the Americans, and during that time lost about 18 aircraft. Thus, if only Pakistan did not save the failed aircraft (and why?), Then their recount “over the heads” is simply impossible.

Officials who considered the Pakistani aircraft are not named. In addition (alas, the English author did not allow him to independently understand such nuances), the domestic “Free Press” in the article “New details of the battle between the MiG-21 and F-16 over Kashmir” said: “The State Department, although it is behind the publication in Foreign Policy, did not comment on the article, but the publication itself considered the exclusive of Lara Seligman a private opinion. ”

But the most important evidence, of course, were photographs of the wreckage of the F-16, which the Pakistanis mistaken for an Indian plane.

Thus, with the highest probability it can be argued that as a result of the February 27 clash, 2019, Pakistan lost one F-16, and India lost one MiG-21. In addition, the Indian helicopter Mi-17 crashed on the same day, but this catastrophe obviously has nothing to do with Indo-Pakistani hostilities /

What really happened?


There are a lot of questions. Has the Pakistani raid been crowned with success? Of course, the military of Islamabad reported the defeat of the intended goals, but somehow without a “spark”, without details. At the same time, the Indians, too, did not focus on the damage. What can this mean? Perhaps, India used the “acceptance of silence”, without advertising the resulting destruction, but if there were human victims, it would be very difficult to do so. Maybe, in fact, Pakistani planes could not fulfill their combat mission, and simply dropped their deadly cargo and retreated when Indian aircraft appeared. Or it may be that Islamabad, wanting to save face, but not wanting to aggravate the confrontation with India, chose as targets of attack any objects that have lost any military or other significance.

Did the Indian air force overslept? Well, even one of the Indian publicists believes that overslept. However, there is a sense of bias. Let us remember that the day before the Indian Air Force hit the territory controlled by Pakistan, and where were the Pakistani Air Force at that time? In fact, the air battle took place not when Indian planes invaded Pakistan’s airspace, but quite the opposite, and if we say that someone “overslept” something, then this “slept” will obviously be Pakistan.

But on February, the Indian Air Force 27 managed to quickly fly into the air and redeploy fighters to the 8 area, the actions of which, apparently, were coordinated by DRLO aircraft. Given the extremely small time that remained at their disposal, this is quite a decent result.

Why didn't the Indian Su-30MKI join the battle? Pilots were frightened by the terrible American AMRAAM missiles? There is a much simpler and more plausible explanation. Recall that both planes shot down in battle fell on the territory of Pakistan, and the combat formations of Pakistani aviation.



The fact that the MiG-21 attacked the Pakistanis when they retreated is not disputed by anyone. The fact that the downed MiG-21 fell on the territory of Kashmir, controlled by Pakistan, indicates that during the pursuit the aircraft, piloted by Abhinandan Varthamman, came close to the air border. It is also obvious that India was interested in punishing the terrorists, but its plans did not include the unleashing of the next Indo-Pakistani war.

So, on the basis of the foregoing, it is very easy to assume that the Indian pilots had orders to fight exclusively over their territory, while not climbing into Pakistani airspace. Strictly speaking, this is a natural situation for all the Air Force of the world. So, according to some sources, the four Su-30MKI approached the combat area simultaneously, or a little later, a pair of MiG-21, but before the Mirage. However, even if this is not the case, and all the 8 Indian fighters were “assembled” at that moment, then in any case:

1. They were confronted by significantly superior Pakistani forces. Still, three to one (24: 8) is not the ratio in which to take air combat;

2. It’s not a fact that Su-30MKI and Mirages were close enough to have time to attack the retreating Pakistani planes while they were still in Indian airspace;

3. The attack of the retreating Pakistanis was obviously a losing tactic, since the latter had air cover. That it should be destroyed in the first place. But if Indian planes had orders not to enter Pakistan’s airspace, they did not have the right to do this, because the Pakistani fighter jets did not cross the air border.

So, most likely it turned out that the Su-30MKI pilots refused to attack, which would either put their few machines in a deliberately losing position, or would lead to an air battle over the territory of Pakistan, which they were probably forbidden. In other words, there was no retreat or flight, but there was a perfectly correct decision. But Abhinandan Varthamman heroically ignored the order and rushed to the attack (kshatriyas, they are such ksatriyas!), As a result of which the enemy plane was shot down, but he himself was also shot down.

But the most important lesson of 27 February 2019 air combat was the use of AMRAAM missiles on Su-30MKI aircraft. If this attack really took place and medium-range 4-5 missiles were launched on “Drying”, then this combat experience puts the American concept of fighter aircraft in question. Of course, AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM is no longer at the peak of progress, but Indian Su-30MKI were hardly equipped with the latest REP systems like the same Khibiny. And the fact that not a single Indian 4 generation aircraft was hit by this rocket suggests that the effectiveness of modern medium-range missiles in combat equipment of the same technological level may not be as high as many analysts believe the combat potential of a combat aircraft from a range of missiles suspended from it.

In other words: 2 of the concept of air combat is much discussed today on the Internet. According to the first of them, the combination of the DRLO aircraft and the equipping of fighters with medium-range and long-range air-to-air missiles will lead to the closest air combat (BVB) becoming a relic of the past. Accordingly, in the wars of the future, stealth will play the most important role for the sake of which you can sacrifice a lot, including maneuverability. According to the second concept, medium-range and long-range URVV are important and necessary, but nevertheless they are only a “prelude” to the aircraft fight, short-circuited, a means allowing the enemy to inflict sensitive losses before the start of the BWB, which, in fact, will decide the matter. Accordingly, maneuverability remains one of the most important combat qualities of a future fighter.

It is known that the first concept of Americans, the second - the domestic videoconferencing. And the experience of the 27 battle of January 2019, as if confirms the correctness of the domestic concept.
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  1. xax
    +11
    4 June 2019 05: 21
    This is already similar to the "cold-headed" attempt to analyze what happened in the region of the Indo-Pakistani border on February 27 "
    1. +3
      4 June 2019 06: 59
      Quote: xax
      similar to “cold-headed” attempts to analyze

      I disagree with you. There are so many "maybe" and "probably" in the article that it looks more like an attempt to pull the conclusion by the ears!
      1. xax
        +4
        4 June 2019 07: 15
        Quote: Waddimm
        "maybe" and "probably"

        Well, if something really can be and is really likely, how do you order to talk about it? Unambiguously affirm or deny?
        1. +3
          4 June 2019 07: 26
          Quote: xax
          Unambiguously affirm or deny?

          Do not draw conclusions based on unreliable facts and allegations.
          1. xax
            +6
            4 June 2019 07: 41
            Quote: Waddimm
            Do not draw conclusions based on unreliable facts and allegations.

            Only mathematics can afford the luxury of operating with reliable data.
            Attempts to cognize the material world are always associated with data measured with a certain degree of accuracy.
          2. +16
            4 June 2019 07: 47
            Quote: Waddimm
            Do not draw conclusions based on unreliable facts and allegations.

            My job is to provide information that I could get. I made my assumptions out of it, but you have the right to make your own, or not to make any.
            1. +1
              4 June 2019 12: 02
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              You have the right to make your own, or not to do any.

              Of course, I respect the opinion expressed by you, but I reserve the right to voice my attitude to the conclusions made in the article. If the site provides comments.
              And this is the opinion.
              Your conclusions are made on the basis of speculative conclusions with an unknown degree of probability of the alleged events, and therefore can not be taken for the truth. Therefore, they should not be taken into account as knowingly false.
              Although the article, as a description of one of the likely varians (with an undetermined probability value) of the development of events, in the absence of reliable information, is pretty good. But the conclusion in it is clearly superfluous.
              1. +1
                4 June 2019 16: 41
                Quote: Waddimm
                however, I reserve the right to voice my attitude to the conclusions made in the article.

                By itself. As old Voltaire used to say? "For your opinion I am ready to cut your throat, but for your right to express it I will give my life."
          3. 0
            4 June 2019 11: 19
            Quote: Waddimm
            Do not draw conclusions based on unreliable facts and allegations.

            In general, these "maybe, perhaps" do not greatly change the overall picture of the battle. Therefore, you should not pay attention to them.
    2. +1
      4 June 2019 09: 28
      I do not agree with what this author took that our tactics are better? The Pakistani Air Force thwarted the Indian attack, the planes turned away and left the battle, the task was completed. Now all analytics are attracted to the result of the collision, this is not correct. To determine the best tactics, it is necessary, at a minimum, to know the tasks of the Pakistani and Indian Air Force.
      1. +1
        4 June 2019 09: 30
        Quote: qqqq
        Pakistani Air Force foiled Indian attack

        Rather the opposite
        1. +3
          4 June 2019 11: 16
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Rather the opposite
          Without knowing any tasks or others, both versions are correct with a 50% to 50% probability.
  2. +1
    4 June 2019 05: 35
    I think, based on one battle with many unknowns, it is not worth making serious conclusions.)
  3. +7
    4 June 2019 05: 36
    It was in India and it was like this. Mom had three children, 2 boys and one girl. Mom put on red socks for her children. Then something happened .. probably my mother died, that the children scattered across India. Someone became a bandit, someone a decent person, and my sister began to dance in the street. Here's how, when she was dancing in the square, a bandit began to molest her ... the girl shouted "I'm not like that" !!!! Suddenly a bystander rushed to protect her! And during a fight, they SUDDENLY notice that they are wearing red socks !!!! And tears are rolling from the eyes of the brothers! Brother!!!!! And SUDDENLY they notice that the dancer is wearing red socks !!!! ABOUT!!! This is our missing sisters !!!! I am your brother, and I am your nephew, ... And I am your mother. Excerpt from "Shita and Krito"
  4. +3
    4 June 2019 05: 40
    on the photo the wreckage of Mig21bis. on video from 1.56 it is good to compare

    1. +2
      4 June 2019 06: 09
      + at 2:23 you can clearly see whose plane it is.
    2. +3
      4 June 2019 07: 32
      tlauikol (Ivan) Today, 05:40 AM NEW
      on the photo fragments of Mig21bis

      judging by the shape of the exhaust stabilizers, this is exactly the P-25-300. The author doesn’t need to be pierced like that
      1. 0
        4 June 2019 07: 44
        Quote: Ka-52
        judging by the shape of the stabilizers, this is exactly the P-25-300. The author is not so pierced

        And what is the puncture, if not a secret?
        1. +4
          4 June 2019 08: 10
          And what is the puncture, if not a secret?

          as I understand it from the text, this photo proved the fact that the F-16 was shot down. In fact, the engine nozzle in the photo is not F110 from general electrics, but our native, tube turbofan wink moreover, apparently from those that are produced by the Indians themselves under license
          1. 0
            4 June 2019 09: 11
            Yes, I nakosyachil with photos :)
            1. +5
              4 June 2019 10: 57
              happens) sometimes you can make a mistake) I remember the words of Lyudmila Prokofievna from "SR": "I have such an impeccable reputation that it is high time to discredit me" wink
  5. +4
    4 June 2019 05: 48
    "We have proof, but we will not show it to you - it is secret."
    familiar fairy tale. Nichrome Indians there did not shoot down, except for his helicopter
    1. 0
      4 June 2019 07: 44
      Quote: Tlauicol
      familiar fairy tale. Nichrome Indians there did not shoot down, except for his helicopter

      Where did the 2 then shot down the aircraft in Pakistan?
      1. +4
        4 June 2019 07: 47
        And which is the second?
        1. +2
          4 June 2019 07: 49
          Quote: Tlauicol
          And which is the second?

          The one reported by the Pakistanis :)))))
          1. +3
            4 June 2019 07: 54
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Quote: Tlauicol
            And which is the second?

            The one reported by the Pakistanis :)))))

            Did they report a downed f16?
            1. -3
              4 June 2019 08: 05
              They reported on two downed aircraft, here, probably, the wreckage of the second (apparently, I mixed up the photo)
              1. +5
                4 June 2019 08: 08
                These are the same fragments of MiG
                1. +5
                  4 June 2019 08: 38
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  These are the same fragments of MiG

                  You are right. Everyone who was even more or less seriously interested in this story has been aware for a long time that all the photos and videos on the incident have been professionally analyzed for a long time and it is unequivocally proved that all the wreckage of the downed MIG-21.

                  https://ru.bellingcat.com/novosti/drugie-strany/2019/03/13/mig21-f16/
                  1. 0
                    4 June 2019 08: 48
                    Quote: Town Hall
                    It has long been professionally analyzed and unequivocally proved that all fragments are shot down by MIG-21.

                    We read professional analysis

                    Note that the rectangles on the casing of the F-16 engine are the same, whereas the parts from Pakistan show a different pattern and thickness of the frame. In addition, this detail is concave.

                    Personally, I do not see much difference in the figure, and that part is concave ... Generally speaking, the plane fell a little to the ground from a height, so this is not surprising
                    1. +1
                      4 June 2019 09: 00
                      By the way, it would be interesting to look at the dvigun 16-th from the inside ...
                    2. +3
                      4 June 2019 09: 07
                      Nozzle f-16
                      blog.not-a-kernel-guy.com/2010/08/IMG_3047.jpg
                      Nozzle mig-21
                      mini-koleso.ru/images/models/accessories/lo_dvigatelya_r25_300.amg48012_3/mig_21bis_mig_21_93_reaktivnoe_soplo_dvigatelya_r25_300.5.product.lightbox.jpg
                      1. 0
                        4 June 2019 09: 11
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        Nozzle f-16
                        blog.not-a-kernel-guy.com/2010/08/IMG_3047.jpg

                        So this is a nozzle. A chip from the engine block
                      2. +4
                        4 June 2019 09: 34
                        Are you not embarrassed by the fact that in the photo of the f-16 engine the ribs are stiff outside, and in the photo of the wreckage they are "from the inside"?
                      3. 0
                        4 June 2019 10: 18
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        Are you not embarrassed by the fact that in the photo of the f-16 engine the ribs are stiff outside, and in the photo of the wreckage they are "from the inside"?

                        First, we do not see if there are stiffeners in the F-16 from the inside (they can be both there and there). Secondly, there is no reason to believe that the fragment is the inside of the engine, and not the outside. In the fall it still could not bend
                      4. +2
                        4 June 2019 10: 46
                        in the video they drag this piece into the truck. it is not twisted, painted outside. Indians have nothing but blablabl
                      5. 0
                        4 June 2019 11: 22
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        in the video they are dragging this piece into the truck

                        This is not the piece, take a closer look :)))
                      6. +2
                        4 June 2019 11: 39
                        on 1.15 is the same. even if another fragment - the similarity of one to one and in the same place
                        Indians storytellers
                      7. 0
                        4 June 2019 15: 59
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        on 1.15 is the same. even if another fragment - the similarity of one to one and in the same place

                        Take a closer look - stiffening ribs do not match at all
                      8. +3
                        4 June 2019 11: 50
                        It is reliably known that the ribs of stiffness in the f-16 are outside, and in the moment-21 - from the inside. It is reliably known that the fragment is with stiffening ribs from the inside. The theory about as a result of the impact the fragment "turned out" and it took such an ideal shape with ribs from the inside, it is not even worth discussing.
                        If you are promoting the theory that the f-16 has ribs on both sides, then show any proofs that a) the f-16 has two-sided ribs. B) that the fragment on the photo-ribs is also double-sided.
                      9. 0
                        4 June 2019 16: 00
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        It is reliably known that the stiffener at the f-16 outside, and at the instant-21-inside.

                        Prove it. Once it is known reliably
                      10. +2
                        4 June 2019 16: 19
                        That the f-16s are external, can be seen in the photo that was discussed above.
                        That at the moment-21 they are "from the inside" - check this photo. Especially in 2 places where there are "dents".
                        http://avia-simply.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/r13-300-su-15-mig-21.jpg
                2. 0
                  4 June 2019 08: 46
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  These are the same fragments of MiG

                  Not a fact at all.
  6. 0
    4 June 2019 05: 52
    Andrei hi you have text 2 errors complex REP! !! And, at the very end, the battle date is JANUARY 27, 2019! Make a change, please! And the rest, the review is good hi +++!
  7. +4
    4 June 2019 06: 03
    2. It’s not a fact that Su-30MKI and Mirages were close enough to have time to attack the retreating Pakistani planes while they were still in Indian airspace;
    Fact. The Hindus say that the Su30 fired at f16 RVV AE (the Pakistanis found at least one missile), and they also could not hit the target at a distance of 80 km, like aim120.
  8. +1
    4 June 2019 06: 24
    The monkey has become weak in the army by old age,
    But she heard from people
    That this evil is not so big a hand -
    Just worth the "SU" to buy.
    She took out two hundred fighters
    And twirls them this way and that .....

    Well, then Krylov’s text does not need to be changed at all)))))
  9. +2
    4 June 2019 06: 46
    Based on the incomprehensible results of one air battle, it is incorrect to talk about the fallacy or correctness of different concepts of air combat. For example, I believe that our concept is correct and not because I am Russian, but because the speeds are quite high. And if on a collision course, then even more so. In any case, no one canceled the VISUAL identification. It is far from a fact that if the enemy fighter’s mark, after launching a long-range missile, disappeared from the radar, it would mean that the target was hit.
    1. 0
      4 June 2019 07: 38
      the fallacy or correctness of different concepts of air combat

      Yes, even without this battle, the concept of DVB as the only possible one is pure nonsense. In any case, at the current level of technological development. And it is likely another 30 years. Americans sing him a mantra, because it allows them to promote their GDP
    2. 0
      4 June 2019 09: 36
      Quote: NEXUS
      For example, I believe that our concept is correct and not because I am Russian, but because the speeds are quite high.

      This is certainly true, but the DVB forces the enemy to maneuver, turn on the electronic warfare, and this is too much fuel, unmasking. Therefore, whoever first launched the rocket is in a more advantageous position. Probably the truth is in the middle, try to be the first to launch and while the enemy is dancing with a tambourine, finish off in the BVB.
  10. +3
    4 June 2019 08: 28
    For normal people, after all these dances over the wreckage, the question arises: was there a fight?
    I would not be surprised that packs and Indians in the air decided, as usual, to show who steeper and stupidly crashed into each other.
    And the authorities, in order not to look like idiots, issued a joint opus about the heroic battle.
    And the wolves are full and the sheep are whole. I mean, the image was not badly damaged.
  11. +4
    4 June 2019 08: 35
    with the highest probability, it can be argued that as a result of the February 27 clash, 2019, Pakistan lost one F-16, and India lost one MiG-21

    ,,, I found it more convincing analysis.
    https://medium.com/dfrlab/in-depth-indian-plane-shot-down-over-pakistan-in-february-91d81881a798
    As a result, the lead MiG, which was piloted by Abhindendan Varthaman, managed to target the outgoing F-16 and use the short-range air-to-air missile P-73 on it.

    ,, in this analysis, even the wreckage of all 4 missiles found.
    1. 0
      4 June 2019 09: 33
      Quote: bubalik
      in this analysis, even fragments of all 4 missiles were found.

      Well, the Indians also found fragments of AMRAAM

      Does this mean that the MiG-21 was not shot down? :) In general, thanks for the link, I already like it very much, although I have not translated it completely. Of course, the author was digging much deeper than I could do
      1. +3
        4 June 2019 09: 39
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk (Andrei) Today, 10: 33
        hi
        , in this analysis even the wreckage of all 4 rockets was found.
        Nidians also found fragments of AMRAAM
        ,,, as I understand it (if you consider read and translate with a dictionary laughing ), fragments of missiles that were not used at all what .
        1. +1
          4 June 2019 10: 19
          Quote: bubalik
          as far as I understood (if I take into account I read and translate with the laughing dictionary), fragments of missiles that were not used at all

          I would not be so hot, even the pros will not immediately install it :))))
  12. -1
    4 June 2019 10: 20
    Quote: Thrifty
    you have text 2 errors complex REP! !!

    REP - electronic suppression, one of the 5 components of electronic warfare (EW). The phrase "REP complex" means that the aforementioned means of self-defense is intended for jamming, but it is not intended to conduct radio-technical reconnaissance (RTR) from it.
  13. +2
    4 June 2019 11: 39
    This story is already becoming like the flight of the Americans to the moon. It is unclear why grind shit in a mortar 200 times?
  14. nks
    +1
    4 June 2019 11: 50
    > the formidable name JF-17 "Thunder" hides a Chinese craft based on the MiG-21
    Hmm ... I do not mean that you don’t need to read the Russian wiki at all, but it’s better to read not only it ... well, and think at the same time
    1. 0
      4 June 2019 16: 06
      Quote: nks
      I don’t mean that it’s not necessary to read the Russian wiki at all, but it’s better to read not only her ...

      We open the airvar, and what do we see there?
      A further development of the line of the Chinese MiG-21 - the front-line fighter J-7 - was a light multipurpose aircraft FC-1. F-7 (export version J-7) ... .... The version of the aircraft for the Pakistan Air Force received the designation JF-17 Thunder.

      That is exactly confirms my words. Well, wiki too.
      Quote: nks
      well, to think at the same time

      Well, think and find a source that would deny the foregoing.
      1. nks
        0
        4 June 2019 19: 46
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        That is, exactly confirms my words. Well, wiki too

        Exactly what is not "exactly". "line development" can be understood in two ways - including the fact that it is made in the same class (in Rusvik it is specifically written that it is made on the basis). But in this case, it doesn't really matter what the author of the article on airwar had in mind - the differences are too great. The presence and use of experience with the j-7 does not mean at all that this is a doped / sawn-through MIG-21
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        find a source that refutes all of the above

        There is nothing to refute - it is enough to have an eye to see that there is another wing, other horizontal and vertical plumage and other airplanes, well, you can read how it is made inside (it’s already ridiculous that there is at least a Soviet turbojet engine, but of a completely different line )
        1. 0
          6 June 2019 07: 30
          Quote: nks
          Having and using experience with j-7 does not mean at all that it is a doped / sawed blink-21

          Can you read? try again
          under the formidable name JF-17 "Thunder" hides a Chinese handicraft created on the basis of the MiG-21

          Ayrvar writes that Thunder is made as a development of the MiG-21. What exactly did your chair flare up with?
          1. nks
            +1
            6 June 2019 10: 33
            First of all, don't be rude. Secondly, this is just one of the mistakes in your article - you have already been pointed out to others in the comments (by the way, you screwed up with the "Voltaire quote" above in the comment, and quite a lot). I will not touch the artistic turn about the "craft", but the statement that the jf-17 is made on the basis of the MiG-21 is completely untrue. If you know a little about aviation and read about its device, you will understand that this is a completely different plane. Yes, it is single-engine and is made according to the same classical scheme with a single-fin tail unit, but the f-16, for example, is also like that. The F / A-18E / F, with all its great differences, is made on the basis of the F / A-18, and the SU-35 and SU-34 are based on the SU-27, but not the JF-17 based on the mig-21. Otherwise, you can cook porridge from an ax :)
      2. 0
        5 June 2019 09: 33
        A modern processor Intel 8000-th series then a variant of 80386.
  15. 0
    4 June 2019 14: 22
    Quote: xax
    This is already similar to the "cold-headed" attempt to analyze what happened in the region of the Indo-Pakistani border on February 27 "

    for some reason it is not said that the su-30s were in a configuration for close combat, therefore they did not intervene.
    1. +2
      4 June 2019 16: 11
      Quote: yehat
      therefore did not intervene.

      No, it seems that the other pilots were of different qualifications, remembered the tactical introductory, had a more complete radar picture, kept in touch with the command and equipped themselves with their heads, unlike the MiG-21 pilots, and therefore did not fly closer.
    2. 0
      5 June 2019 09: 31
      Normal load for Su-27-derivatives: 2 missiles with radar seeker and 2 with IR seeker. We had filming of the regiment on the Su-35, including the duty vehicles in the caponiers, they had as many as 8 missiles, including 2 new K-77s. Logically, it is not known what will be needed when departing to intercept. I see no reason why the Indians on duty "dryers" did not carry at least 2 missiles of each type.
  16. 0
    4 June 2019 16: 20
    Quote: goose
    because they did not fly closer.

    the depth of events was in the radius of medium-range missiles, but reportedly they were raised only with melee missiles.
  17. 0
    4 June 2019 17: 43
    The analysis of air combat indicates two aspects: 1. Closes the dispute between supporters and opponents of light single-engine aircraft. The light MIG-21 missile did not go away. And the heavy Su-30s could dodge. 2. We need a new medium-range missile, made using stealth technology, which would not unmask the SU-57 / F-35 fighter during launch.
  18. 0
    5 June 2019 09: 25
    they actually used their armed forces on the territory of a sovereign state, which is Pakistan


    Did the packs have to think before attacking terrorist gangs, or did they blow them up a little?

    Abhinandan Varthamman, managed to take a sight of the outgoing F-16 and use on it a missile (or rockets?) "Air-to-air" short-range P-73.


    Packs showed 4 broken rockets, which, they said, were shot down by a MiG. MiG-21bis could carry up to 6 missiles, but somehow I can not believe that he had just such a load, after all, + 2 missiles are add. weight and resistance, and even Su-27 derivatives fly no more than with 6-8 missiles. Most likely, there was not a single launch from the MiG-21, or the follower shot who was not shot down, but this is strange, it is the leader who attacks, the follower covers.
    1. 0
      6 June 2019 07: 26
      Quote: EvilLion
      Packs showed 4 broken rockets, which, they said, were shot down by a MiG.

      And that could be missiles from other fighters, or fragments of missiles fired by MiGs
  19. 0
    15 August 2020 20: 31
    Andrey from Chelyabinsk began to fall in his eyes. For a group of planes to fly to Kashmir and go unnoticed by the radars of the Indian air defense system, this is of course bullshit. Knowing that Andrei does not like aircraft from Russia, but stopping to obvious delirium does not paint him. It’s just nonsense, perhaps, like the gossip grandma’s. If these aged aircraft created even the slightest threat to the Su-30MK, they would not return. ... Andrey, it's time to grow up and respect the reader.

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