Military Review

When the king taught better than in democracy

54
In Russia, there are increasingly calls to abandon higher education. Recently, for example, the words "in defense of human labor" were heard from the mouth of the presidential envoy in the Urals Federal District Igor Kholmanskikh. Stressing the lack of skilled workers, Kholmanskikh cited figures: in the 1980s. Higher education had 25% of the country's population, and now it is of the order of 90%.

What should the Russian educational system as a whole be like in order for its part - specialized secondary education - to produce qualitative results and be in demand? About this - in an interview with the expert on development management and training, deputy director of the Institute of Philosophy of the Russian Academy of Sciences Peter Schedrovitsky.

Ytro: Peter Georgievich, appeals to abandon higher education in favor of secondary education, since the Russian economy cannot cope with the bias in favor of graduates, is the trend of recent months, if not years. How do you feel about this issue?

When the king taught better than in democracyPeter Schedrovitsky: This problem has two sides: firstly, the structure of education, and secondly, its quality. Let's start with the structure. It is absolutely not necessary that all people receive higher education. Moreover, it is not at all necessary that they receive it in a single sequential process. I have repeatedly said that the educational process itself should be built differently. A person who has received a certain level of training should be able to go to work in order to recruit his mistakes, to plunge into real situations, to form an order for himself for the next stage of training. And not to sit for six - seven years at the desk, sitting out from the army, having no motivation for the real educational process. A person cannot know what he needs without confronting reality, without ever seeing his workplace. But he should have a clear guarantee that, having interrupted his education, he will be able to return to it in the future if he wants.

Y: Do you need a complete restructuring of the entire education system?

P.SH .: Right. The educational process should and can be broken down into certain stages, the essence of which is not to get qualified, but to form competence - the ability to do something. This applies to higher, and secondary special, and school education. The previous stage of the reform severely damaged, for example, the traditional Soviet system of vocational education and training - technical schools. Hence the huge shortage of workers, which we state today. But you need to start at school, as from the first stage, the preparation in which objectively leaves much to be desired.

"Y": You judge by the results of the USE, the attitude towards which in the educational environment is ambiguous?

P.SCH .: And for them as well. The Unified State Exam during the last three years provides an opportunity on a massive scale for the full sample to assess the results of school learning. No matter how criticized this system, it demonstrates the level of training in the school in the whole country. When the first version of the USE was made, teachers and scientists criticized it for its low level. Today, looking at the results, we understand that even this low level is more than two-thirds too heavy for the graduates of our schools. Moreover, over the past three years, in fact, we still had to lower the quality of individual tasks.

As a consequence, the following problem situation arises: some use the results to criticize the quality and level of funding in the educational sector over the past 15 years. They say: "In the Soviet Union, there was a quality education. Look at what we have come to now!" And who said that in the Soviet Union was a quality education? We have no such data.

"Y": That is, objective statistics did not exist?

P.SCH .: No, of course. For example, I believe that in the Soviet Union there was a very high differentiation of the quality of education between the conditionally standard ordinary school and a certain level of educational institutions included in the system of profile preparation for higher education and for work in certain sectors in the future. Everyone knows that Fiztech received the lion's share of its applicants from specialized mathematics and physics and mathematics schools. They were the most talented students of regional scale. Such terminals existed throughout the country. At the same time there was a certain system of summer schools, olympiads, etc. And we can say that the level of preparation of applicants for several educational institutions was maintained by a hierarchical system that reached the lower grades. And what was the rest of the training system, we do not know.

According to the Physical and Technical "Vacuum Cleaner", which was only a part of the Soviet education, it is impossible to draw conclusions about the quality of the whole system, since you and I understand perfectly well that it is the average results that are important. Talented children are always there, but good results are needed for average children.

And the economy, as we know, is moving middle peasants. Do you know this old good bike that the rate of climb uphill is determined by the last, not the first? Especially if he carries matches and a tent. Therefore, we received for the first time, with the help of the USE, a slice of the level of training throughout the country, we saw the starting point for setting some goals and objectives. And it is absolutely clear that again to focus on a small group of privileged educational institutions - secondary, higher - and to ensure that one of them enters the top 100 of the world rankings, this does not at all mean solving the problem of education.

"Y": So what do experts say about the results of the USE?

P.SCH .: When we look at these results, the content of those goals that are meaningful and realistic to set in relation to the current situation is far from ambiguous. Well, for example, we are faced with the fact that a huge number of high school graduates cannot use the knowledge that they have received: they have memorized it, but they do not understand it. This is shown by the results of the USE and those selective studies on international methods that are used in our country.

And this problem is relevant not only for school. A huge array of both school and university education works not to form the competence and free movement of a teenager in the space of knowledge and activity, but to learn: to take an exam, to fulfill a certain clear standard. But it is necessary to give him not a direct task, but an indirect one, to formulate the conditions a little differently, and he will no longer know, cannot reproduce this stamp. In such a situation, it is quite clear that when getting from a university to production, a person cannot use the knowledge given to him.

"Y": What is the main problem?

In teaching methods: verbalism in training programs, an overestimated number of throat watches and much less work experience, design, research work and in general all that forms the independence of thinking. The problem is not students: it is not their fault that they are taught this way. This is the fault of the entire system of organization of the educational process.

"Y": Exit?

P.SCH .: First of all, retrain teachers. And also to change the methods, standard programs, the balance of different forms of education in the structure of the curriculum. But how to do it? This is a huge system. Do you replace the whole class of teachers and professors in universities? This is ridiculous!

“Y”: Can Western experience help us in this situation?

P.SCH .: Our own experience can also help us. Please note that today in many universities, in engineering and in business schools, the project method is used. What is the project method? In the course of the educational process, students together with teachers are engaged in real projects: not learning tasks, but doing real project work. Despite the fact that exactly today this project method of teaching occupies such a serious place in the training systems, it was invented a long time ago, more than a hundred years ago, at the end of the XIX - beginning of the XX centuries, and simultaneously in Russia and in the United States. There was such a very famous American philosopher and educator John Dewey, who generally believed that this was the main method in the education system.

"Y": And in pre-revolutionary Russia, it is practiced?

P.SCH .: Yes, a number of educational institutions - first of all, engineering and technical institutions - were focused on introducing this method into the system of training engineers.

"Y": Not stuck? Or did not survive the revolution?

P.SCH .: Let's be honest: the losses in the intellectual corps of the country were fantastic. Not only did many people leave, some died and died of starvation during this difficult period, but many simply could not get along with the regime for ideological reasons. Therefore, for some time, those investments that were made in the XIX century in the Russian education system, still continued to work. And we understand that those engineers who created the Russian industry before and after the war learned before the revolution or from those who studied before the revolution. As this historical potential was exhausted, the quality naturally fell. I emphasize: we are talking about mass education. We are not talking about the unique personal qualities and characteristics of an individual.

"Y": So what happens is the quality of pre-revolutionary education was higher than it is now?

P.SH .: Yes.

Y: Higher and intermediate?

P.SH .: Yes. Sure. At least because people with a university education went to work at the school. And now they have created such a strange structure, as pedagogical universities, which do not reach the university level. I point out one small problem, but it is important: how to explain to a university graduate that he should go to work at school? We treat this system as if on a residual basis: I did not find a good job, go to school. One of my friends, the principal, has not been able to find a math teacher for a year now. He gives applicants as a test five to six tasks that children in the sixth grade solve. For the year no one decided. In pre-revolutionary Russia this could not be.

"Y": This is confirmed by some numbers? Or are we judging by the works of that time?

P.SCH .: Of course, according to the works. Statistics, unfortunately, are very scattered.

"Y": So, there is a lot of experience and you can raise it?

P.SCH .: There is experience, but the problem is that a whole range of technological things are transferred only from teacher to student. They can not be read in textbooks. There must be a certain continuity. And the connection was interrupted.

And once again I want to focus on the next point. You can always say: "But in this area we have ..." and name names. We are not talking about that now. There is always a narrow group of people who break through, despite everything, and, in a sense, motivated by resistance. But this is a very specific social and cultural psycho, which is rare. And we are talking about the average level.

The emergence of some unique pedagogical technologies, author’s schools, and new methods is wonderful in itself. But, as soon as the task is set to transfer this experience, to replicate the groundwork, it turns out that it is necessary to spend 10 - 15 years on team building, training and preparing teachers, introducing them into a certain system of world outlook and technical equipment. Who will do this? For example, when the methodology of developmental education was created, then in an experimental school, exceeding the average results over the usual ones in terms of the quality of training reached 40% - 50%. And at that moment, when it began to replicate, the numbers fell to 10% - 15%. As soon as you massify something, you have to lose quality, sacrifice it for the sake of mass. And you need to be ready for this.

"Y": But, apparently, the problem of the massization of copyright methods is not the only one? You regularly say that education cannot exist without communication with the future workplace of a person.

P.SH .: Naturally. This is the second side: one of the tools that contribute to the gradual growth of the quality of education is a clear order from the industry. We prepare people in one way or another, because they are demanded by the labor market. It is not worth expecting that everyone just really wants to learn and learn a lot. Teaching is always hard work. And only a certain layer of people learn, because they like the process itself. And most of them do it anyway. One of the "sticks" is the fact that sooner or later a person will have to go to work and something will be required from him. If he meets these requirements, his salary, standard of living, social opportunities will be higher.

"Y": That is, education "under the task"?

P.SH .: Of course. But then we have to look at the relationship between the education system and the industry system, the employment system as a whole. And here we see a giant paradox: the level of industry on average is such that for those who are in the highest zone of education, it is too low, and for those who are in the low zone, it is high. It turns out that the "stars" require other jobs, more highly skilled.

"Y": And not in Russia?

P.Sh .: This is as a consequence. They require a different management system, a different level of intellectualization of these jobs. They want to work on modern, high-tech, automated and relatively free, in the sense of management style, places: creative, creative, without undue directivity, on other principles of motivation. And when they look at the labor market, they see that there are few such places. They are in the business sector, where a person must build everything himself. But entrepreneurship is always inclined to a limited number of people who have received one or another professional training. Not having such employment opportunities before their eyes, the “stars” are beginning to look around, to look for work in another industry, in another country.

And the lower part - people who actually get no-good school education, and then they cannot even complete the first year of high school — do not correspond to this industry. I’m not even talking about the huge shortage of workers, with which we started and about which everything is being said. That is, again, the paradox: on the one hand, there is serious unemployment, moreover, in many enterprises there is an excessive number compared to world peers, and on the other hand, there is a shortage of workers. We all the time say that we have low productivity. What does it mean? This means that each person at his workplace produces less than he could and should in terms of technology. That is a lot of extra people. Let's think about this situation: low labor productivity and lack of personnel. How is this possible?

"Y": And how are those involved in this scheme that are not the best or the worst according to the results of the university graduation? Is there such a layer that is trained specifically to exist in the conditions of this country? Any intermediate level?

P.SCH .: Today, the average level is that a person must necessarily speak a foreign language, better than two, information technologies, freely navigate search engines, work with a modern machine park. In addition, he should be able to participate in communication, if necessary - in quality circles, in group work. In addition, what you call the average level is, in general, a fairly high set of requirements.

Moreover. Today, a vocational school graduate in Switzerland or Germany owns these technologies better than many of our university graduates. Therefore, the call to abandon higher education in favor of secondary is tempting, but can become counterproductive without discussing the quality of vocational training in the modern innovative world. Today, everyone unanimously shouts about the fall in the level of starting characteristics of people who come to this or that system: universities, which have never had such a low level of training for schoolchildren, enterprises blame universities. When everyone shouts it, there is a reason to think and start changing something.
Author:
Originator:
http://www.utro.ru
54 comments
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  1. grizzlir
    grizzlir 26 June 2012 07: 44
    +16
    I don’t know how they taught under the tsar, but compared to studying in the USSR, the level of modern education is much lower. Now educated people just don’t need, educated people start to think a lot and this is not good in our democratic state. On the other hand, I can’t imagine where a huge mass of young people without education will go to work. There is simply no work for them. Hence the number of suicides at the age of 17-25. Look at the statistics, the numbers are scary. And it’s not alcoholics addicts who voluntarily die, but normal guys who have no place In this life.
    1. wk
      wk 26 June 2012 08: 10
      0
      http://www.newsland.ru/news/detail/id/786924/ об образовании в царской России
      1. Yoshkin Kot
        Yoshkin Kot 26 June 2012 10: 25
        +4
        Yeah, but did someone say compulsory education? my grandmother, for example, 2 years before the revolution, went to a parish school, wrote, better than me, how much more competent
        1. wk
          wk 26 June 2012 11: 18
          +4
          Quote: Yoshkin Cat
          my grandmother, for example, 2 years before the revolution, went to a parish school, wrote, better than me, how much more competent

          .... wonderful! .... and even on an empty stomach I probably studied better .... 60% of the population of tsarist Russia was malnourished .... and even better when the master could put out rods with sticks until the age of 61, then the literacy level was probably going through the roof! !!
    2. Yoshkin Kot
      Yoshkin Kot 26 June 2012 10: 16
      +2
      under the Tsar, higher education was one of the best in the world, but it was destroyed by the Bolsheviks by shooting educated people and driving them abroad
      1.  pistons
        pistons 26 June 2012 10: 47
        +9
        Created even better. All that flies in the sky of Russia (his native) .and what our country is rightly proud of. it is the merit of the Bolsheviks. .Dry. Tupolev. Antonovs. Miles. Yakovlev. Kamovs, etc.
        1. Poplar
          Poplar 27 June 2012 09: 25
          0
          So they studied in tsarist Russia.
      2. Kite
        Kite 26 June 2012 12: 41
        +2
        Read about Vernadsky, it describes what kind of training system was before the "revolution", then, perhaps, there will be less desire to put "-"
        Yoshkin Kotu.
      3. S_mirnov
        S_mirnov 27 June 2012 00: 12
        0
        It is enough to compare the level of scientific achievements of tsarist Russia and the USSR and the opinion of the Ioshkin cat turns into a bunch.
    3. mind1954
      mind1954 27 June 2012 06: 28
      0
      When the king was taught well! He held in his hands a golden gymnasium
      a medal! Of pure gold and not quite small, in a chic case!
      Two revolutions passed, a civil war, the Second World War!
      They taught Latin, and on its basis German, French, English!
      And the Soviet school had a classic gymnasium as an example!
      Then taught !!!
      And now they are pretending to be taught! And even on this they are trying to make money!
  2. Alexander Romanov
    Alexander Romanov 26 June 2012 07: 49
    +14
    Many universities have nothing to do with education. Machine to raise money. It's a dumb fashion to have a diploma, and having got it go to work as a taxi driver or waiter. A good education was in the USSR, and now - complete crap.
    1. Armata
      Armata 26 June 2012 07: 58
      +6
      Hi Sasha. So a good education is laid in the school, but where is normal teaching in schools now? If there is an 2-3 gymnasium for the whole city where they really study well, but there is a line, and the children there from the kindergarten at the gymnasium and from it go to the senior school.
      1. 755962
        755962 26 June 2012 15: 14
        +5
        Recently at one event G. Gref and D. Livanov met.
        We are talking about the Russian system of education and science.
        The conversation was a success.

        German Gref, speaking of Russian universities, said that they "accept oaks, but release linden."
        1. S_mirnov
          S_mirnov 27 June 2012 00: 16
          +1
          Let me summarize. Such a "higher education" that exists now is really not needed by the citizens of Russia, but those who call to reduce the number of educated Russian people are simply enemies of the people. The education system must be changed, together with those who brought it to the modern level.
  3. Aventurinka
    Aventurinka 26 June 2012 08: 21
    +6
    We just talked about this topic with my mother, a biology teacher at school.
    She told how young teachers at that time did not want to get higher pedagogical education, because there was no difference in salary. The same is not in production (in the Crimean region of the Krasnodar Territory).
    A person received VO and immediately began to receive a salary of 20-30% less.
    I have 3 hydrogeologist technicians at work. Everything is already retired. And there will be no one to replace ...
  4. Kyrgyz
    Kyrgyz 26 June 2012 08: 34
    +3
    higher education should be supported by long-term practice, otherwise it should not be considered higher
    just the requirements for education need to be formulated and formalized, it is possible to exclude the word higher as discrediting the rest necessary education
    1. Yoshkin Kot
      Yoshkin Kot 26 June 2012 10: 26
      +4
      before, engineering was not applied to the diploma, but required protection and many years of practice
      1. earthling
        earthling 26 June 2012 17: 15
        +1
        And one moment. Previously, in the backwaters of the backwaters, universities were maintained. There, students did practice and received an additional working profession. After privatization and democratization, the factories were halved halfway. They refused to maintain universities, there was nowhere to go through the practice. It became unprofitable to keep trainees for one more reason - they trained for free and left the factory. You probably won’t do anything without a contract system.
  5. Owl
    Owl 26 June 2012 08: 42
    +5
    Education is one of those areas for which the State should be responsible. The state should determine which specialists, in what quantity and with what (higher, secondary specialized or secondary) education it is necessary to train for the existence and development of the country. Only the State should have the right to issue diplomas (after a high-quality check of the level of training), otherwise now in any subway crossing it is possible to "become" a "certified specialist". Therefore, specialists with Soviet education (medicine, military affairs, engineers) are now valued in Russia.
  6. aksakal
    aksakal 26 June 2012 09: 02
    +1
    Here is a professional article! Article plus, it is simply difficult to disagree with many conclusions of the interviewee.
    I have already written more than once that higher education, or rather, what we call "higher education" in everyday life, should simply be (and is in fact) included in the gentleman's set of a modern young chela. In Kazakhstan, they realized and quickly introduced a two-stage higher education - the first four years - you are a "bachelor", the next two years of study are called a master's degree, upon graduation you receive a "master's" degree. In principle, it is the "master" that corresponds to the specialist who received a higher university education in the USSR. So, the master's degree in Kazakhstan is not in great demand, but almost all young people get bachelor's degrees. Only those who have already firmly decided to remain in this profession and it is within its framework to improve their professional skills go to masters. Hence the conclusion: the same vocational education, or in a broader sense, vocational education, should be delivered after the bachelor's degree and on the basis of the education received within the bachelor's degree, that's all! There is enough for two years already to get a specialist, of course, if a sufficient quality of education is maintained at the bachelor's stage. It's just that the mass of the population does not consider school education a sufficient set for a young person in the 21st century. In short, 12 years of school + 4 years of bachelor's degree is just general education, and then - in vocational school -)))). I understand that the state has strained for school education in the amount of 16 years, but it will not work to save money on this - it is easier to throw such a state into a landfill. And you don't have to throw it out - it will quickly go to the dustbin of history because of the banal non-competitiveness. 21 CENTURY IN THE YARD, wake up! So it turns out in fact !!!
    And the Kholmanskiy Council — it was he himself who graduated from the Ural Polytechnic, so what the hell wants young people not to get this? UVZ interests? Have you tried to consider uninhabited factories by the examples of Japanese? Expensive? Is it cheaper for young people to break their destiny by putting it behind a machine for routine monotonous work? Wasn’t this at the beginning of the last century? HEY, MICROSCOPES, DO NOT GO TO INSTITUTIONS, WHERE YOU WILL LEARN FOCUSING AND OTHER FOCUSES, GO TO US, WE HAVE THESE UNFORGETTABLE Nails !!! And for hammering nails robots did not try to use hammers? Kholmanskikh - on the soap! Putin - minus a point for such a representative, imagining himself a god and taking on the right to decide the fate of others.
    As for the lack of workers, it would be time to switch from the extensive development path to the intensive development path. How much does one farmer in Germany feed a person? That's right, 67 people ("one with a bipod, 67 - with a spoon", google it). I am generally silent about the Dutch farmer, it's scary to name the numbers. In Russia, 30% of rural residents. And in theory, 3-4% is enough (and this is still far from even the Geman standards!), The rest is a human reserve. With the proper formulation of agricultural work. How many so-called. "office plankton"? And if you put the IT sphere correctly? All these databases, competent software, everything is intelligently integrated. For example, a person came to the bank for a loan, there he was met by a lender - give such a document, and this one, and here's a certificate from the tax office. People ran to all these instances - and there are the same "planktonchiks" sitting, these dock-certificates are issued. Why is this? And what about the central database, where everything is about the chelas - when was he born, when he got married, how many taxes did he pay, and how many times he farted in his life? Only access to this database is limited by the electronic signature of the brow. He provided the lender with such an electronic signature, he received all the data - how many plankton can be expelled to the labor market? That's where the reserves are. It is necessary to move from an extensive path to intensive economic growth.
  7. Shumer
    Shumer 26 June 2012 09: 51
    +8
    Oh, who is to blame - teachers, students or the system as a whole? Yes, as long as such cranks, according to the zombie creator, transfer their knowledge to the people, we will not change our attitude towards education.
    1. Fire
      Fire 26 June 2012 15: 02
      +4
      Hit the top ten.
  8. Yozek
    Yozek 26 June 2012 09: 54
    +4
    A real step towards improving higher education and increasing those wishing to get a "working" profession is the toughening and complication of university exams. Of the ten who entered the university this year, in Soviet times, seven would have passed exams.
    1. aksakal
      aksakal 26 June 2012 12: 24
      +2
      Quote: Yozek
      A real step towards improving higher education and increasing those wishing to get a "working" profession is the toughening and complication of university exams. Of the ten who entered the university this year, in Soviet times, seven would have passed exams.
      - let's say so, general higher education for everyone. And then, when I finally decided on a profession and even got my first practical skills, get a special education on the basis of general higher education. Yes, it is long and seemingly expensive for the state. But do not forget that many young people are ready to pay for this education themselves. This will reduce the burden on the state. This is the first thing. And secondly, do not forget how the 17th year began. And it began in 1895, when the cook's children were blocked from university education. Even the young Ulyanov, who barely made his way to the Kazan University, fell under such a distribution. This angered him, we know the consequences. And thirdly, this is the aspect - well, after the eighth grade we took a twig and drove everyone who studies less than 4-plus to vocational school. There for two years (although why should it be necessary to curt a lathe or a milling machine, or drive an electrode on metal for two years?) He is taught a working profession, then he will start working at the factory. Who will be by the age of thirty or forty with such an educational background? A wretched brow, of all cultural leisure, preferring one - to sit with the same in a T-shirt - "alcoholic" in the kitchen for a bubble of vodka and a cucumber inhabited by cockroaches and Gorbachev's swearing (Putin, there are options). His wife is a whore, his daughter is a slut, his son is a homosexual, and his mother-in-law is generally a snake. Do you want such a population? Me not. I hate Sobchak, but here I am on her side - she, MGIMO with honors, somehow sharply spoke about such a segment of the population, and she is right.
      Here on the next branch there is a photo of the assembly of SU-34 aircraft at the Chkalovsky plant. Almost all the young guys there have a solid "stamp" of intellect on their faces - it is clear that they did not limit themselves to the school bench in education. But they work as workers. Instead of a kitchen, they will be honored to take their family out on a cultural human vacation somewhere. And the demand for the level of cultural products, in which the manufacturer is the same dog, will increase. And how worse is such a worker after eight years of education? Give me one item. And also Jozek, let’s deny your children higher education, just announce loudly, and we will follow. Or are your children special? Than? Justify. And we will listen. I'm wondering what you wish for other people's children:
      Quote: Yozek
      toughening and complicating exams at universities.
      - Do you quietly prepare another fate?
      1. khoma nickson
        khoma nickson 26 June 2012 21: 41
        +2
        Young Ulyanov was the son of a full-time state adviser (general lieutenant), a hereditary nobleman. But the brother of the executed regicide. Received no problem. Expelled for participating in a student strike. The lawyer did not work out of him. went to the revolution.
  9. apro
    apro 26 June 2012 10: 23
    +4
    I don’t know how under the tsar, but the Stalinist education is much higher than the Soviet one. With its strict school charter and teacher status. Talk to the old people who were at that time who were second-year students who were several in the classroom, were expelled from the school. those who can and want to study. In the institute, please, the main capital of knowledge. The liberal Khrushchev has taken a lot.
    1. Nick
      Nick 26 June 2012 22: 49
      +1
      Quote: apro
      I don’t know how under the tsar, but the Stalinist education is much higher than the Soviet one. With its strict school charter and teacher status. Talk to the old people who were at that time who were second-year students, were expelled from the school several times in a class. those who can and want to study

      Absolutely agree. Secondary education was devalued as soon as it became universal and complete. And in Stalin's times, secondary education had to still try to get. Remember the episode of the CF "The meeting place cannot be changed." When V. Vysotsky's character, Zheglov, uttered the phrase, "You have ten classes written on your forehead," and the phrase was taken from that period of the country's life.
  10. Kaa
    Kaa 26 June 2012 10: 30
    +5
    For 20 years, in our Ukraine, and probably in Russia, several disastrous processes have taken place in the field of education. 1) The introduction of "contract" education has led to the pursuit of universities for the number of applicants, without taking into account their real initial knowledge and the quality of further education. 2) This "contract" money does not reach a simple professor, associate professor, teacher, whose salary barely reaches the possibility of providing primitive survival. and not enough to "work on yourself". Ie professional growth. This entails 3) Some of the scientific personnel left for the cordon - the exodus, as in the Civil. Some took the NEP slogans of Bukharin - "Eat yourself" - which DARKLY increased corruption at all levels of education, some (with the "archaic" concept of conscience either left, or lowered her hands.4) The introduction of the Western "Bologna system", "external independent assessment" or USE, applied to our soil FORMALIZED the education process. A significant part of the youth was DONE, which the media help a lot, introducing liberalistic values ​​into the minds of those who, due to their age, absorb EVERYTHING like a sponge - children. 5) A fantastic number of diplomas for relatively little money led to the DEVALATION of higher education 6) Lack of state regulation of the number and the distribution of graduates led to a disastrous deformation in the direction of training "managers", "economists", "lawyers", the list can be continued, who either work where they have to, or do not understand a damn thing in their specialty. And try to find a good foreman, engineer, locksmith, doctor, teacher, finally. After the exodus from Egyptian captivity, Moses led the Jews across the desert for 40 years, not because he lost the compass, but so that two generations of people would grow up who do not remember their past life, in order to start everything "from scratch." We have already 20 years, a little more, and we will all have to start with a clean sheet (from intelligence, good breeding). Then it will be impossible to change something for the better, it is time to correct the mistakes that you have done.
    1. darkman70
      darkman70 26 June 2012 11: 22
      +1
      I agree with you. A huge number of universities were opened, which stupidly earn money and release any "specialists" and even in specialties that no one needs. What, for example, is taught in the memorable Maimonides Academy? This is an imitation of education.
      Graduates of various academies come to work for us, so after talking with them there is a misunderstanding of how they not only graduated from a university, but how they generally finished school with such knowledge. They cannot connect two words.
      1. aksakal
        aksakal 26 June 2012 12: 38
        +1
        Quote: darkman70
        I agree with you. A huge number of universities were opened, which stupidly earn money and release any "specialists" and even in specialties that no one needs. What, for example, is taught in the memorable Maimonides Academy? This is an imitation of education.
        Graduates of various academies come to work for us, so after talking with them there is a misunderstanding of how they not only graduated from a university, but how they generally finished school with such knowledge. They cannot connect two words.

        - there is such. But the employer is also to blame for this. Most corporations do not even have such an item in their budget - training of a personnel reserve. Everyone hopes for the labor market - like, our HR department will find it. Then the Prokhorovs cry - I, such a proud billionaire, have to kiss a good specialist almost in the ass, just to work for me. And don't kiss, but take some university to supervise, or even buy it, drag the best teachers there, work out the training methodology and train specialists there for your enterprises. Is there not enough money? There is enough for Courchevel, but there are not enough specialists for your own structures? Well, one of the graduates did not want to work in trade structures - they compensate their studies and let them go their own way. Cook with a reserve. Damn, both in Japan and Germany are already like this. In the USSR, there was a tradition of patronage supervision between the employer and the university. I graduated from the Railway Institute They had a common ending "IIT" in the USSR - MIIT, LenIIT), so there the railway was closely looked after, right up to sports equipment, every summer was driven into practice in my depot - there, even in triplets, you will still become a specialist. And now - some kind of crap, I agree. But the desire of people to increase their educational qualifications does not need to be cut. On the contrary, to encourage and organize universities themselves.
  11. aksai61
    aksai61 26 June 2012 12: 23
    +2
    The problem is that techies are not held in high esteem now !!! Look at what specialties are solid managers (low level!), Economists, lawyers! They are sellers, taxi drivers, waiters, etc., etc. So far I have not met turners, locksmiths, grinders, etc. technical specialties. And also a real problem with the quality and number of engineers.
    Without real production, the construction of large engineering structures, the development of energy and engineering, nothing can be restored, the level of quality of technicians will only fall. The brain degrades without training - this is a fact !!!!!
  12. Fire
    Fire 26 June 2012 12: 31
    0
    In any country, when a tyrant came to power, he killed everyone who is smarter than him. And he destroyed the education system, so that there were no smart ones. Fools are easier to manage. It is a pity that history does not teach us anything.
    1. aksakal
      aksakal 26 June 2012 13: 36
      0
      Quote: Fire
      In any country, when a tyrant came to power, he killed everyone who is smarter than him. And he destroyed the education system, so that there were no smart ones. Fools are easier to manage. It is a pity that history does not teach us anything.
      - Yeah, Stalin destroyed Kurchatov, Korolev, Landau, Kapitsa Sr., Kolmogorov (long list). Something they were so destroyed that from the other world managed to do business in the USSR. I am not talking about a whole galaxy of outstanding aircraft designers - Yakovlev, Antovonov, Sukhoi, Mikoyan and Gurevich. All of them were also shot and created air masterpieces from the other world. A universal free school and higher education was introduced by someone else, and managed to do it against the will of Stalin. What are you talking about? Even if Stalin is a tyrant, then an extremely unusual tyrant. Less to you for being a liberal zombie. Just now, when liberalism is raging, and the education system is being destroyed, you won’t start from that, ordinary. Skull and bones on your shoulder strap
      1. earthling
        earthling 26 June 2012 13: 59
        0
        There were only scientists who fit into the materialist doctrine and, in addition, without these famous people, Stalin would have lost. After the victory, even Zhukov was no longer needed.
        1. aksakal
          aksakal 26 June 2012 20: 58
          0
          Quote: earthling
          There were only scientists who fit into the materialist doctrine and, in addition, without these famous people, Stalin would have lost. After the victory, even Zhukov was no longer needed.
          - So decide, please! Or Stalin:
          Quote: Fire
          killed everyone who is smarter than him. And he destroyed the education system, so that there were no smart ones. Fools are easier to manage. It is a pity that history does not teach us anything.
          - or Stalin:
          Quote: earthling
          without these famous people, Stalin would have lost
          . Don't you see your contradictions? Dogma divorced!
          Members of the forum, let's have a competition for dogmas from the liberals. I already cite two dogmas here: "there is nothing to seek for enemies in the outside world, all the fault is in you!" This is despite the proven facts of revolutionary interference in the affairs of other countries. We are even seeing this in Syria now.
          And here is the second dogma: you are so stupid because you were ruled by a tyrant (Stalin, Pinchet, Deng Xiaoping, there are options), and tyrants, as you know,
          Quote: Fire
          killed everyone who is smarter than him. And destroyed the education system, so that there wouldn’t be smart
          - fun too! Maybe we can compare the general intelligence of 1000 amers from a random sample of the same thousand Russians? Will this dogma be true?
          What liberal dogma do you still know? Hunting is poking fun, because there are still Ognevy and earthlings who seriously believe these dogmas. laughing laughing laughing
          PY. SY. I remembered another dogma - "the state is the worst manager and manager! Therefore, long live the uncontrollable element of the market" " laughing laughing
          1. khoma nickson
            khoma nickson 26 June 2012 21: 55
            +1
            How not to compare the intellect of Amers and Russians, but their country’s affairs are much better than ours - in all respects. The Internet on which you are currently working, and the PC on which you are working, were created precisely by amers. And much more that we never dreamed of. And not from the lack of liberalism and the market. And do not distort and distort: ​​the state - the state, and the market - the market. Any liberal will tell you this - from Hayek and Friedman to Thatcher and Reagan. Intervention or not, but at the porches we do not urinate on the amers and vodka is not poured into our throats by force. And then everyone is to blame, we are alone forever in all white. And what do Stalin, Deng Xiaoping and Pinchet have in common?
            1. aksakal
              aksakal 27 June 2012 08: 43
              -1
              Quote: khoma nickson
              How not to compare the intellect of Amers and Russians, but their country’s affairs are much better than ours - in all respects. The Internet on which you are currently working, and the PC on which you are working, were created precisely by amers. And much more that we never dreamed of. And not from the lack of liberalism and the market. And do not distort and distort

              - Much better? Did you learn economics? The amount of US public debt to announce? In fact, it is customary to repay debts. Of course, they may not give it in different ways, but I can’t call such a way out of their situation neither honest, nor based on such an opportunity, better than ours. Stupidity froze.
              Quote: khoma nickson
              The Internet on which you are currently working and the PC on which you are working are created precisely by amers

              - already got this cliche. Amer only commercialized those developments in fundamental science, which the whole world painstakingly created. There, the share of the USSR is very significant - do you have a concept about Kolmogorov’s works in the field of information theory? Sure no. You have a clue, why did you receive the Nobel J. Alferov, without which the Internet would not be close? I am sure that it’s not, but you talk about science, moreover in an amateurish way, and even with an undeserved appropriation of obscure laurels to the amers.
              Quote: khoma nickson
              And do not distort and distort: ​​the state - the state, and the market - the market. Any liberal will tell you this - from Hayek and Friedman to Thatcher and Reagan
              - for menia, neither Friedman, Thatcher, nor Reagan is an authority, send these names to yourself instead of rectal suppositories and ask you not to refer to them. A competent and optimal combination of market elements and government regulation is a topic that really works on the example of China. And in your States and England, things are such that it is not from a good life that they stir up a dangerous game here - this is already clear to everyone.
              Quote: khoma nickson
              And what do Stalin, Deng Xiaoping and Pinchet have in common?

              - dictators who have implemented significant modernization of their countries. Here you can add both Ataturk and Chon Doo-hwan (South Korean dictator, didn’t you know? Yu. Korea has recently stood on the path of democracy, before that - the classical dictatorship). You are already touching me! -))))). Let's have our own dogma, just rzhach !!!! Blinkered to nothing!
      2. Fire
        Fire 26 June 2012 14: 20
        +2
        You understand your high nobility, there is a policy of the destruction of higher education, and you are as if glad about it. As I wrote about the tyrant, I had in mind the tyrant-pharaoh, and these are the statements of the priests of ancient Egypt.
        1. aksakal
          aksakal 26 June 2012 19: 33
          0
          Quote: Fire
          there is a policy of destroying higher education, and you are as if glad about it
          - You would read my post where I am glad that it is not destruction, but rather, profanation of higher education. Where? In your post
          Quote: Fire
          In any country, when a tyrant came to power, he killed everyone who is smarter than him. And he destroyed the education system, so that there were no smart ones. Fools are easier to manage. It is a pity that history does not teach us anything.

          - I saw a hint of Stalin. But maybe you mean Putin? I mean, sent Khodorkovsky to prison? Are you sure that Khodorkovsky, together with Nevzlin, is not a banal bandit from a big street? Maybe Svetlana Vrazhina, a famous actress who had the misfortune to live in a house that Menatep liked, we ask? What is your post about? Is it really just about the pharaoh? And what does education have to do with it?
          1. Fire
            Fire 26 June 2012 22: 45
            0
            Aksakalu
            This is a parable. Everything in our life is connected. When a revolution took place against Gaddafi in Libya, Zhirik spoke out that people with higher education were to blame for it. In the type learned on their own head. Then he heard this nonsense from Gref. Now there is a wave against people with higher education under any pretext and in the Swamp they were accused. Therefore, I am against this opinion, that's all. And I think that the more educated people the better for the country - this is elementary.
            1. aksakal
              aksakal 27 June 2012 08: 18
              0
              Quote: Fire
              This is a parable. Everything in our life is connected. When a revolution took place against Gaddafi in Libya, Zhirik spoke out that people with higher education were to blame for it. In the type learned on their own head. Then he heard this nonsense from Gref. Now there is a wave against people with higher education under any pretext and in the Swamp they were accused. Therefore, I am against this opinion, that's all. And I think that the more educated people the better for the country - this is elementary.

              - It was just that the USSR taught people and did not worry that educated people are difficult to manage. I studied there, teachers through my parents spread rot, so that I would know something, but at the university the real exam was not entrance - they were more often formal, but the first session. There was tin, mercilessly weeded out all who do not pull.
              As for the current assault on people with higher education, I don't think it's about politics. The point is the economy, but it is still on an extensive type of development. Extensive development path - economic growth simply due to the involvement of more and more labor resources without increasing labor productivity. I wrote about this above, there minusanuli - the formation of members of the forum is also a little upsetting. Soon, you will begin to import people on purpose to maintain economic growth. Do you need it? And here we get a typical conflict - the economy still needs primitive workers in the old fashioned way (how is it with Ulyanov? "Outdated industrial relations"?), And people do not want to be workers, but want normal professions with a great creative component - about which many forum users with they write with hatred "damned creatives!" (that is, the new productive forces want to work in a new way). To summarize, there is a conflict between outdated relations of production and new productive forces. Now it would not hurt us to a heap that the upper classes cannot and the lower classes do not want - and we will get a good set of what? Guess three times. Education allows? I would not like this. But if the authorities in the person of the Kholmanskikh insist - well .... - (((((((. Her choice.
    2. khoma nickson
      khoma nickson 26 June 2012 21: 45
      0
      In addition to gunsmiths and their subcontractors - metallurgists, heavy industry, chemistry, etc. The humanities under tyrants greatly degraded, non-military - too. Supreme - so even destroyed genetics with cybernetics as a class.
  13. sashalenovo
    sashalenovo 26 June 2012 12: 55
    0
    In Japan, even a loader with higher education is paid more, because it is believed that he does his job better.
  14. earthling
    earthling 26 June 2012 13: 07
    +5
    The fact is that Putin’s oligarchs need not slaves, but slaves. No wonder the banker Prokhorov broke through a 60-hour work week. And the fact that the collapse of the higher education system is to blame for the government, and not the higher education system. The fact that the processing industry is actually destroyed and people with higher education have nowhere to go is also to blame for the authorities. And why the workers really get 7-9 thousand, and for such salaries someone is not going to blame the authorities too. And the fact that any plant can produce products, and at 20% VAT to find intermediaries who realize these products is a big problem. And the plant is easier to plunder than contain. The power is also to blame.
    1. earthling
      earthling 26 June 2012 13: 33
      +1
      I can add everyone knows the clever economist Alexei Kudrin .. I don’t understand who he works for, in the USA or what. With his beloved VAT of 18% in any tank as a result of a multiple tax on parts (because the units are supplied from parts that they also buy) multi-stage component suppliers will be 50% VAT taxes. Here you have the destroyed military-industrial complex. If we add to this that this cunning economist kept the entire stabilization fund in Russia in the United States, which is still there. And after the collapse of industry, people with higher education are simply not needed, which is now happening.
    2. aksakal
      aksakal 26 June 2012 13: 39
      0
      Quote: earthling
      No wonder the banker Prokhorov broke through a 60-hour work week. And the fact that the collapse of the higher education system is to blame for the government, and not the higher education system. The fact that the processing industry is actually destroyed and people with higher education have nowhere to go is also to blame for the authorities

      - mixed everything in a bunch. Well, that you would know that Prokhorov is Putin’s ardent opponent and would not be surprised if he was also a secret sponsor of the swamps.
      1. sashalenovo
        sashalenovo 26 June 2012 13: 47
        +1
        Putin is in need of his own people. And there are no such rich people as opponents, but there are commercial interests. I can add, without Putin’s permission, not a single rich creature in Russia will take a step - he will end up as Berezovsky or Khodorkovsky. Another thing is that Putin can not cope against all this thieves.
  15. Prophet Alyosha
    Prophet Alyosha 26 June 2012 13: 18
    +2
    Almost destroyed the highest military arr-e, and now they took up the civilian. Everything is in order, because we are being prepared for the rule that foreigners will rule!
    1. earthling
      earthling 26 June 2012 13: 38
      +4
      Even the priests are already talking about our government, that these are good, that they still speak Russian. Since 2020, the third mandatory exam will be a foreign language. That is, people are already preparing that foreigners will rule the country.
  16. click80
    click80 26 June 2012 13: 38
    +4
    Dear, please explain to me. I do not understand the title of the article. why compare tsarist and present RUSSIA. Where did they divide that period of history in which the level of education was the best in the world, the period that made RUSSIA a world power, because there were a huge number of brilliant scientists who brought us first into space, etc.
    Let's compare at least more or less similar periods. with the same success we can compare the current education with the formation of a thread 1345goda.
    1. earthling
      earthling 26 June 2012 14: 03
      +1
      Soon our education will be compared with Zimbabwe, Honduras and more.
  17. khoma nickson
    khoma nickson 26 June 2012 14: 28
    0
    A cruel thought - and if at the same time introduce a fully contractual Armed Forces and fees for higher education (with private and state scholarships, normal loans) - what will remain of the current "self-made" academies and universities of molecular political science and other sciences necessary for the country. And what will be more profitable - pay for 5 years with unclear prospects or get the desired specialty and start earning right away? Or to enroll in budget places only those who will then work for the state or society for 25 years, without the right to leave or go to the private sector? At the same time, create modern production facilities from scratch, demanded by research institutes and design bureaus. There is a lot of work: "there is a lot of harvest, but few workers." All lawyers and managers, nail extensions, and solariums with saunas.
  18. Roman Dmitriev
    Roman Dmitriev 26 June 2012 15: 16
    +2
    While diplomas are being bought from us, you can forget about normal education. This is even shown on the box. The guy has never been in class, and he was handed the diploma of a surgeon. And these are massive cases in all sectors. And even excellent students without a bribe will simply fail on exams.
    1. Fire
      Fire 26 June 2012 15: 32
      +3
      You are right, I can add:
      1. You need to stop giving distance education. As the teachers say, you can’t have lunch in absentia.
      2. It is necessary to re-enter entrance exams to universities and the training of applicants. After the adoption of the exam all fools rushed to universities.
      3. For the sale and purchase of diplomas must be planted.
  19. Fire
    Fire 26 June 2012 15: 38
    +2
    You are right, I can add:
    1. Cancel correspondence higher education. As the teachers say, you cannot have lunch in absentia.
    2. Introduce entrance exams to universities and the preparation of applicants. And then after the adoption of the exam all the fools rushed to universities.
    3. Introduce criminal liability for the sale of diplomas.
    4. To obtain working skills, all students must tell teachers what schools are in his city - they will still know.
    1. Aventurinka
      Aventurinka 26 June 2012 18: 26
      +1
      disagree about
      Quote: Fire
      Cancel correspondence higher education

      Correspondence education involves advanced training of working people. Including and having a secondary special. Thus, workers are deprived of career opportunities and professional development in the workplace.
      1. aksakal
        aksakal 26 June 2012 19: 08
        +2
        Quote: Aventurinka
        Correspondence education involves advanced training of working people. Including and having a secondary special. Thus, workers are deprived of career opportunities and professional development in the workplace.
        - adventurous, dear. plus for you.
        But still add that education should be full-time. Suppose that after hours, or instead of work - but full-time. AND WITH THIS, the state is obliged to help such people - a person who wants to get a higher education may already have a family in his hands, a wife with a second or third stomach in his stomach is already on maternity leave, he is one breadwinner, then career growth loomed with him as an intelligent specialist, yes here is the trouble - there is no higher education. And the state, no matter what. Nifiga !!!!!!!! Not people for the state, but the state for people !!!!! Oil and gas nationwide? Why sell? To keep in amerskih zahashnikov? The best contribution of capital is a contribution to people, and no one will prove anything else to me. Let them not even try to talk about real estate in London, but at least on Mars. For these cases, there should be a certain amount in the budget for the possibility of obtaining higher or second higher education for people already working and burdened by their families. At least in the amount of 50% of earnings for the whole time of study. Is it so ruinous? Not! What's the matter? No, we’ll buy amers bonds better, let the amer choke! And she will not choke, eat as much as she likes and not choke!
        Damn, it’s boiling up, I want the second higher - well, the first did not go, the railway profession, it happens, it was a mistake, but here with the family, well, nothing! Why the hell am I paying taxes to such a state? He only sucks from me, but in response, no movement? Who will feel worse if I sat down I will have a second higher? And correspondence is not a study. I would have long received a second degree in correspondence, but I do not have a crust, I need knowledge.
        1. Fire
          Fire 26 June 2012 19: 13
          +2
          Yes, it’s impossible to become a surgeon in absentia +
  20. IRBIS
    IRBIS 26 June 2012 15: 58
    +4
    I can’t judge how everything was under the tsar - I didn’t find it, but I myself received a good education in an ordinary Soviet school. He graduated from a military school. I’m not complaining about the level of everything received, a very good reserve for life! Now managers, lawyers, economists - heaps! That's just the economy is in full swing, the judiciary and the police are in their infancy-ugly state. 90% has a higher education, and from cattle on the street - do not push around! Education of the mind does not add, and modern education does not provide knowledge. Sheer undergrades who by profession cannot actually work.
  21. Roman Dmitriev
    Roman Dmitriev 26 June 2012 16: 24
    +2
    Quote: Fire
    You are right, I can add:
    1. Cancel correspondence higher education. As the teachers say, you cannot have lunch in absentia.
    2. Introduce entrance exams to universities and the preparation of applicants. And then after the adoption of the exam all the fools rushed to universities.
    3. Introduce criminal liability for the sale of diplomas.
    4. To obtain working skills, all students must tell teachers what schools are in his city - they will still know.

    As for the correspondence education, I do not quite agree with you. If a person knows his duties well, manages his business, but for career growth he needs a higher education, let him study in absentia. Do not quit him from work. And the rest is true at 1000%. It would also be nice to create a database of educational institutions where employers could evaluate the knowledge of graduates who came to work.
  22. Magadan
    Magadan 26 June 2012 16: 49
    +1
    Quote: wk
    and even on an empty stomach, I probably studied better .... 60% of the population of tsarist Russia was malnourished .... and even better, when up to 61 years old, the master could put out rods, then the literacy level probably went off scale !!

    Is the population malnourished? What are you saying? That's never from my grandfather, born in 1904 smile And you may have forgotten that the family then had 10 children and the wife did not work, but for some reason there was enough income? Even if we take the salary then from the works of Lenin (35-40 rubles), then this was in terms of potatoes almost 60 thousand current rubles?
    Do you know that the great artillery designer - Grabov graduated from a parish school? And the fact that all inventions of the Soviet era were made by those who received education under the kings?
    And with rods along the way, indeed sometimes it is necessary to pour
    1. Fire
      Fire 26 June 2012 17: 24
      +2
      After the introduction of juvenile justice by Western democrats, an article will be available for the issue with rods. Although sometimes a crack to the student does not hurt.
    2. aksakal
      aksakal 26 June 2012 19: 23
      +5
      Quote: Magadan
      That's never from my grandfather, born in 1904
      - that's what to refer to grandfather? Just read the novel by M. Gorky "Mother". There the main character went to work as a worker's apprentice, an auxiliary, in short. On my very first salary I bought a red blouse in the latest fashion, cowhide boots with a squeaky sound, a leather cap, and a big button accordion, and had been buzzing for six months. Back in Soviet times, I had one button accordion each - it cost 350 mouthpieces in the Soviet electronics stores, but if I was dressed in the latest fashion - at the time of my youth, Texas jeans, Adidas sneakers, Czech batnichek - I got all seven hundred rubles ... So the general manager of a huge plant did not get it! Something not like the starving population of pre-revolutionary Russia. You read the novel, there was no point in lying to Gorky, he simply did not know that after 70 years of Soviet power, even top managers would not be able to afford such a thing for a monthly salary - why then did they make a revolution? They, Gorky, did not realize that it was not they who made the revolution, but smart and rich people who developed, financed and launched a special project. The result is still disentangling. And therefore, I hate the marsh, even if, as one of the members of the forum wrote there, with pure intentions, right? - even so, all the same, the caliber machine gun cries at them. If you don't like something - sue, go and vote in the elections. But don't make a revolution!
      1. khoma nickson
        khoma nickson 26 June 2012 22: 09
        0
        You can also read Averchenko's "Twelve knives in the back of the revolution", Durylin's memoirs, see the statistics of tsarist times, read the "everyday writers" of that time. Already the factory received decently, and only the factory. Unique specialists - up to 300 rubles. That is why the cadre proletariat was not very happy about October 1917. Railway workers - a strike, St. Petersburg - for a demonstration for the Constituent Assembly, Izhevsk - to Kolchak, the Iron Labor Division. So they left Vladik abroad.
        If they did the revolution, it wasn’t without much success - Nicholas II and the war opened the way for her, Lenin only directed it. February made the reserve of the Petrograd garrison, October - unauthorized demobilized army. And they don’t make revolutions from a good life - go, raise Switzerland to the revolution. And power always bears responsibility for it - this is what Joseph de Mestre proved.