Military Review

MP9. Super Bore Gun for Special Forces

92
Compact and speedy weapon in demand today in many countries of the world. Often light and compact submachine guns are in service with special forces units, and are also widely used by special services and companies that are responsible for the safety of top officials of the state, high-ranking figures or simply very rich people. Successful examples of modern weapons of this class include the MP9 submachine gun manufactured by the Swiss arms company Brugger & Thomet.


The model is compact in size, the submachine gun is not much superior to the Glock 18 and Beretta 93R automatic pistols widespread in the world, but in terms of tactical and technical characteristics and combat capabilities, it can easily compete with the Israeli Mini Uzi pistol or the classic of the German weapons school - Heckler & Koch MP5 ... Compact size and light weight make it easy to carry the MP9 submachine gun under outerwear: jackets and raincoats. According to the assurances of representatives of the developer company, the guards of the President of France use the submachine gun as a concealed carry weapon. At the same time, the Swiss submachine gun compares favorably with many of its classmates with a huge rate of fire, which, according to the developers, reaches 1100 rounds per minute. Therefore, a magazine designed for 30 rounds can be fired at the enemy almost instantly.

MP9 Brugger & Thomet launched


The MP9 submachine gun was the first model of Brugger & Thomet's firearms, which, prior to its appearance, specialized in silent firing devices (PBS), various tactical attachments, accessories, optics and ammunition. The Swiss company Brugger & Thomet has been manufacturing mufflers since 1991. The company has been producing small arms for the last 15 years and the first model of Swiss gunsmiths was the MP9, chambered for the 9x19 mm Parabellum pistol cartridge, which is widespread in the world.



At the same time, the submachine gun has Austrian roots, but it is wrong to call the MP9 a copy of the Austrian Steyr TMP (from the English Tactical Machine Pistol), developed by the famous company Steyr Mannlicher in the arms world and produced since 1992. In the early 2000s, the production of the Steyr TMP submachine gun in Austria ceased. At the same time, Brugger & Thomet acquired a license, production rights and received all the technical documentation for this model. The Swiss gunsmiths took the Steyr TMP as a basis and brought the weapon to a commercially successful project, making a number of changes and improvements to the design, in particular, improved fuse and added a right-folding stock. The main changes, one way or another, concerned the tactical body kit. For example, Brugger & Thomet offers weapons along with a standard silencer.

Today the MP9 is a compact and powerful weapon. The first pancake of Swiss engineers from Brugger & Thomet did not come out lumpy, they adapted the Austrian model to modern needs and set up their own production. The updated submachine gun is in demand today on the international market. Moreover, B&T now produces a huge range of small arms from pistols to sniper rifles, the company's website contains 12 models of firearms (excluding modifications).



Design Features of the MP9 Brugger & Thomet


Automation of the Swiss MP9 submachine gun is built on a circuit using the recoil energy in the short course of the barrel. The firing of weapons is carried out with a closed bolt, this decision has improved the accuracy of firing single ammunition. In the closed position, the bolt of the submachine gun covers the barrel approximately half its length. Designers placed the cocking handle in the rear upper part of the body of the submachine gun, while firing the handle remains stationary.

The design of the MP 9 uses a rather rare method of locking the barrel - turning it around its own axis by 45 degrees. From a technical point of view, this is not the simplest solution, which provides the weapon with a good degree of reliability of the automation and allows it to achieve super-rate of fire, which is one of the distinguishing features of the Swiss submachine gun. In addition to the complexity associated with manufacturing technology, experts highlight another feature. A certain difficulty is the installation of the PBS (it cannot rotate with the barrel), especially for this, the designers of Brugger & Thomet had to install a small branch pipe - a false barrel, to which the muffler is attached.

The basic mechanisms and automatics of the MP9 submachine gun are hidden in a very durable case of glass-filled polyamide. The robust housing, consisting of two main parts - the upper and lower, effectively protects the inside of the weapon from the ingress of particles of dirt and dust, which would prevent the automatic operation of the submachine gun. In the lower part of the body are located the firing mechanism and safety device, in the upper part are installed the barrel, bolt and grip of the submachine gun.

MP9. Super Bore Gun for Special Forces


The MP9 is powered from B&T's standard dual inline box magazines. Magazines are inserted into the receiver, which is located in the fire control handle (pistol-like). The shooter has magazines for 15, 20, 25 or 30 rounds, which he can alternate to solve a specific combat mission. All magazines are made of translucent plastic so that the shooter can easily control how many cartridges are still in the magazine.

The weapon is equipped with Picatinny rail guides, which are installed on the sides, top and bottom of the submachine gun and are used to install various body kit elements. At the same time, experts highlight the rich standard equipment of the model. You can purchase a submachine gun immediately with an additional front grip for stable holding of the MP9 when firing, a collimator sight, a laser designator and a standard PBS model, the production of which was previously specialized in the Swiss company Brugger & Thomet. Standard sighting devices of the MP9 submachine gun are represented by a front sight and an adjustable diopter.

The submachine gun received a plastic butt - shoulder rest, which easily folds onto the right side after pressing a special button. You can fire a weapon with a folded butt, which does not interfere with the shooter. On the left and right sides of the MP9 there are buttons that allow you to switch the firing mode from single to automatic. The magazine removal key is located on the left side of the submachine gun.

Advantages and disadvantages of MP9


Experts point out one of the drawbacks of MP9, which manifests itself when firing with a device for silent firing - a strong gas contamination in the area of ​​the shooter’s face. This is due to the compact size of the model, the submachine gun is located very close to the face, near which the spent powder gases collect. According to weapons experts, this is quite a serious lack of a silenced configuration, especially if the weapons have to be used in a small closed room or in a car with closed windows. Also, some experts point out the disadvantage associated with the low survivability of the loading arm, which can quickly fail, which is painful for military weapons. At the same time, experts note that the Swiss MP9 according to such an indicator as shooting accuracy bypasses the American MAC Ingram Model 10 submachine gun, as well as the Israeli Micro Uzi, being lighter, more compact and comparable in accuracy to the German HK MP5K PDW submachine gun, which is a larger sample of small arms.



The main consumers of the Swiss MP9 submachine gun are special police units and special services. The weapon is suitable for carrying out assault operations, the release of hostages, for hidden socks, use in small enclosed areas (preferably without a silencer). It is here that the compactness of the model, which can be easily hidden under clothes, manifests itself best of all; the submachine gun in this case does not attract attention, merging with the silhouette of the human body. Weapons can be used with one hand, without using a two-handed grip (due to lightness and compactness), also a submachine gun can be easily used simultaneously with a protective shield. Effectively using MP9 will be able to those special forces, who have to work at height.

MP9 performance characteristics:
Caliber - 9 mm.
Cartridge - 9x19 mm Parabellum.
Rate of fire - up to 1100 rds / min.
Barrel length - 130 mm.
Length - 303 mm (with folded butt), 523 mm (maximum).
The width is 50 mm.
Height - 276 mm (with a magazine and a sight).
Weight - 1,7 kg (with a sight and with a magazine for 30 cartridges).
Shops - on 15, 20, 25 and 30 cartridges (translucent).
Author:
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 May 2019 05: 35
    +9
    I don’t know, but I think the rate of fire over 1000 rounds per minute is excessive! Does the weapon have a three-shot cut-off? This would explain his rate of fire ....
    Regards, Kote!
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 1 May 2019 06: 49
      +8
      Hi, hello! hi But this is the question, does he have a cut-off, or not. Apparently it is not there, there are only three positions of the fuse-translator. Then it is not clear why he needs 15 rounds of ammunition, at this rate of fire he will spit them out without noticing.

      Happy New Year, colleague friend. drinks
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 1 May 2019 07: 10
        +3
        I am sincerely glad to "read" you, all 100 agree with your conclusions! Given its lightness, the automatic fire of the considered PP is a "posturing" or a marketing move!
        Happy Holidays!
        1. Vladimir 5
          Vladimir 5 1 May 2019 12: 19
          +3
          Cote Pan ... Based on the experience of various specials. subunits, when neutralizing the enemy, it is very important to "instantly stuff with bullets", which guarantees the absence of return fire and other actions .. Such a rate of fire is only a plus for this type of weapon ... This is not a weapon of a prolonged battle, but an instant and quick neutralization of imminent danger ...
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 14: 35
            0
            Special operations.

            hi
      2. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 14: 37
        +1
        Or maybe he was conceived to instantly cut down a single PP (bad guy) at point blank range?

        hi

        15 rounds fired into the stomach or chest in a split second will stop any "boar" or "elk".
      3. Maki Avellevich
        Maki Avellevich 1 May 2019 21: 28
        +1
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Apparently it is not there, there are only three positions of the fuse-translator. Then it is not clear why he needs 15 rounds of ammunition, at this rate of fire he will spit them out without noticing.

        single mode is preferred.
        the queue is when you need to fright the whole campaign to bring down if they are in a heap in the corridor.

        but basically an interesting fitting
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 1 May 2019 12: 07
      +6
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      I don’t know, but I think the rate of fire over 1000 rounds per minute is excessive!

      Based on what tasks you have to perform ...
      For example, you need to eliminate the target from the window of a car passing by it. With such a density of fire you are most likely to do so
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 14: 33
        +1
        For example, you need to eliminate the target from the window of a car passing by it.


        Are pregnant mothers with prams, preschool children and disabled people walking around? Certainly everyone is a member of the terrorist families?

        Duc is a weapon of terrorists, it turns out, not legalists.

        laughing

        This is a weapon for special operations - and with this I agree 100%. It is not suitable for protection and war.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 1 May 2019 14: 38
          +3
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          Duc is a weapon of terrorists, it turns out, not legalists.

          They call their own not "terrorists" but "saboteurs", or something else.
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 14: 56
            +1
            They call their own not "terrorists" but "saboteurs", or something else.


            Of course not.

            But it is the terrorists who shoot pregnant women with prams, preschool children and the elderly with disabilities.

            hi
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 1 May 2019 14: 58
              +2
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              But it’s precisely the terrorists who shoot pregnant women with prams, preschool children and disabled people in wheelchairs.

              Both shoot both.
              It's just that those who are "not terrorists" call it all "collateral losses."
              1. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 15: 37
                +2
                call it all "collateral losses".


                ... and they try to avoid these losses when planning the operation. When planning, weapons are also chosen.

                hi

                We are talking about a planned special operation, colleague?
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 1 May 2019 15: 46
                  +2
                  Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                  and try to avoid these losses already when planning the operation.

                  Who is like Some even before planning have guidelines for "acceptable collateral losses" What is essentially insanity at best. And at worst, no difference from those with whom they are supposedly trying to fight
                  1. Horse, people and soul
                    Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 17: 34
                    0
                    Not. Our spetsura is more "Orthodox" than that of the Yankes.

                    The Yankees have not only no cultural cultures, but simply conscience.

                    hi
  2. andy 110
    andy 110 1 May 2019 05: 54
    +7
    A high rate of fire is not an advantage in this case. The Israelis took certain measures to reduce the rate of fire in the "younger" UZI models. The author does not seem to be in the know.
  3. riwas
    riwas 1 May 2019 05: 54
    +1
    He would have our bullets with armor-piercing bullets.
  4. Uncle Sasha_027
    Uncle Sasha_027 1 May 2019 07: 15
    +8
    Next show off on points: With such a short barrel shooting, well, up to 100m. This is a melee. You can’t quickly take aim at the diopter sight - even that gem ..-)). When the count goes for seconds, what collimator is again show off. There is no time to aim. Cowboys even grind off flies to make it easier to come out of the holster - this is about security. What is a silencer for? Like a military weapon mp9 - no, drag kg of iron to remove it once a hour -)), so again the penetration of the armor is in question, it’s pistol cartridges -)).
    Rate of fire !!! - with such a pace for the average shooter it is 3-4 shots and there is no store. Masters, of course, can do more, but not by much. The only protection for fire suppression in the first seconds of the attack, but here neither a collimator nor a silencer is needed - the main store is bigger. -))
    Moving trunks are always quick wear of mechanisms and reduced accuracy.
    1. Lannan Shi
      Lannan Shi 1 May 2019 09: 02
      +6
      Quote: Uncle Sasha_027
      Cowboys even grind flies to make it easier to come out of a holster

      Cowboys are generally shepherds. Here is just an American variation of a village fool with a pipe. Well, grinding the flies, apparently from the intellect, the roots grow.
      And the master of fast and accurate shooting is a gunfighter. And now they are not seen in such a foolishness. The record holder for the fastest is Bob Manden. Something his revolvers can not boast of ground flies. Probably because he was also interested in accuracy, and not just to start "somewhere there."
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 14: 11
        +3
        Gunfighters have many different disciplines. One of them is to quickly get out of the holster and make exactly the first shot. They shoot from the real "Peacemakers" with wax !!! bullets at a distance of about 6 meters at balloons.
        1. Lannan Shi
          Lannan Shi 1 May 2019 14: 38
          +6
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          They shoot wax !!! bullets at a distance of about 6 meters.

          Not at 6 but at 600 laughing , not meters but yards, and not wax, but quite ordinary. The video is elementary on demand - Bob Manden revolver shooting at 600 yards. For gunfighting is the art of quickly and accurately shooting at any reasonable distance, and some unreasonable ones too. Gunfighters shooting wax at 6 meters, in the real conditions of the wild west, lived brightly, but not for long.
          And the very point-blank shooting, this is not gunfighting. This is an ordinary American pistol school, a civilian version. Combining both the actual shooting and the elements of a melee, for it involves the use of a pistol even at a distance of 30 cm, and moving, and tactics. For example, at a distance of 25+ meters, this school urges you to switch from a pistol to a carbine or rifle. Preferably automatic.
          Well, wax bullets, again, this is not gunfighting. This is ganspinning. And the difference between a gunfighter and a ganspinner is about the same as that between a pro sniper, with a personal cemetery of half a thousand, and a circus performer entertaining the public. In theory, both shoot accurately and quickly, but the similarity ends there. Watch the video with Manden, and think for yourself how many chances the shooters have with wax, even at 6 meters, just to get close to him, not even at 6 meters, but at least 60.
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 14: 43
            0
            In the TV show that I watched, our imagination was six meters. Well, maybe there are seven yards to the eye. Wax bullets and balloons. Moreover, time is estimated provided that it hits the balls.

            hi

            There are several disciplines in "cowboy" shooting.
            1. Lannan Shi
              Lannan Shi 1 May 2019 14: 57
              +3
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              There are several disciplines in "cowboy" shooting.

              Again. Cowboy shooting, this is not gunfighting. And he didn’t stand nearby either. This is how to say that in the art of air combat there is nuuu .... let 5 disciplines. Request permission to take off, landing, parachute jump from the padded, turn on the radar, and front-line 100 after departure. And to designate who mastered these five skills as a super ace of all time.
              Hanspin trickery. Yes. Requiring certain skills. Certain natural data. Heaps of workouts. But trickery. Gunfighting is a battle school. in which you have to shoot not at a shooting range, at 5 distances, but in the saloon, and in the stable, and on the street, and in the desert, where the view is under 5 km. And shoot is not beautiful and fast from the hip. And exactly so. as it is necessary, in each specific situation. In the saloon ogt hips, from a distance of 1.5 feet, on the street in the back, from around the corner, and in the desert for half a kilometer, it was not at all fast and scored that the revolver, even in theory, could aim at such a distance.
              if for me, the difference between gunfighting and hanspinning is more than obvious. However, arguing on this topic, frankly tired.
              1. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 15: 00
                0
                Yes, let it be so, I do not argue. Violet.

                hi
    2. sabakina
      sabakina 1 May 2019 09: 09
      +2
      Quote: Uncle Sasha_027
      When the count goes for seconds, what collimator is again show off. There is no time to aim. Cowboys even grind off flies to make it easier to come out of the holster - this is about security.
      About the rate of fire with a 30-round magazine vaasche insanity. About sawing flies .... Everything can be ...
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 17: 30
        +2
        A heap of rifles.
        1. John22
          John22 27 May 2019 09: 38
          0
          Cinema is a movie.
    3. AUL
      AUL 1 May 2019 10: 05
      +5
      Quote: Uncle Sasha_027
      Cowboys even grind flies to make it easier to come out of a holster

      Yes, no, they stitched flies for other reasons ... wassat laughing
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 1 May 2019 13: 23
        +1
        I read somewhere how they finished cows from competitors - all the damage inside the carcass and no traces, i.e. there are no holes from bullets and blood as a result. And taken out without effort. laughing
      2. Maki Avellevich
        Maki Avellevich 1 May 2019 21: 32
        +1
        Quote: AUL
        Yes, no, they stitched flies for other reasons ...


        stitching because the flies are for weaklings, real boys shoot from the hip, which Clint proved to us
    4. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
      SERGEY SERGEEVICS 1 May 2019 12: 04
      0
      With such a rate of fire, the trunk is probably melting there.
    5. Lopatov
      Lopatov 1 May 2019 12: 13
      +3
      Quote: Uncle Sasha_027
      When the count goes on for seconds

      The high rate of fire that you criticize will greatly help.

      Quote: Uncle Sasha_027
      What is a silencer for?

      Improve the manageability of the group / unit, especially on the premises.

      Quote: Uncle Sasha_027
      so again the penetration of the bronics is in question

      Again, high fire density due to rate of fire with a high probability will help disable the target in body armor.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 14: 06
        +2
        Silent (just low noise relative to ordinary) shooting and armor-piercing properties are two opposites.

        For low-noise shooting, subsonic heavy bullets are used, which in the pistol caliber are not effective for breaking through bulletproof vests.

        To break through bulletproof vests use high-speed light bullets with an armor-piercing core for which the silencer is not effective.

        Either one or the other.

        hi
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 1 May 2019 14: 15
          +3
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          Silent (just low noise relative to ordinary) shooting and armor-piercing properties are two opposites.

          Why does he need armor piercing? A dozen subsonic bullets in the chest, even through body armor, will prove to be a very weighty argument. If these bullets fly to the extremities, then here you can give your soul to God from pain shock and subsequent blood loss.

          Do not forget, this is not a gun, this is PP with a rate of 18 bullets per second.
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 15: 06
            +1
            That's right, in the legs and right there in Bosko. The distance allows. A bulletproof vest will save or give a chance for salvation at a rifle distance. At close range - the chances are much less.

            hi

            A line without breaking through a bulletproof vest is also a concussion. Gives the shooter more time to fire and a shot in the head, where the presence of body armor - generally do not care.

            That's right, it is.
    6. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 14: 16
      +2
      Moving trunks are always quick wear of mechanisms and reduced accuracy.


      Accuracy for a weapon with such a barrel length and under a pistol cartridge designed for firing at a pistol distance is not the most important thing. You get into the heart exactly in the middle or 3-5 centimeters to the side - there is no difference. It is because of this that such targets for practical shooting IPSC.

      As the IPSC has ambitions to become an Olympic sport, the "bloodthirsty" metric target (right) is no longer used. But the meaning of the alpha, charlie and delta zones is clear. These are projections onto specific human organs.

      Alpha gives 5 points, Charlie gives 3 points in minor, 4 points in major, delta 1 point in minor, 2 points in major.

      Shoot two times!

      Minor 9x19, Major - .40S & W, .357 Sig, .45 ACP

      IPSC Targets
  5. realist
    realist 1 May 2019 07: 26
    +2
    very compact tool. I think the rate of fire is too big.
  6. san4es
    san4es 1 May 2019 10: 00
    +5
    The main consumers of the Swiss MP9 submachine gun are special police units and special services. The weapon is suitable for conducting assault operations, the release of hostages, for hidden socks .....
    1. san4es
      san4es 1 May 2019 10: 29
      +3
      hi .... The work of the mechanism (anyone interested) recourse
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 1 May 2019 10: 32
      +5
      Yes ... the amount of detail is impressive. On three medium submachine guns. laughing
    3. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 1 May 2019 11: 25
      +1
      Impressive how stable the machine is in this size.
    4. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 13: 58
      +3
      The weapon is suitable for conducting assault operations, the release of hostages, for hidden socks .....


      I am very sorry, but when releasing the hostages, first of all, jewelry accuracy is needed. With such a rate of fire - I'm sorry for the hostages.

      MP5 is not without reason used by police special forces just for hostage release operations. Not for nothing.
      1. san4es
        san4es 1 May 2019 18: 29
        +3
        Quote: Horse, people and soul
        ... MP5 is not without reason used by police special forces just for hostage release operations.

        hi .... So he will be older ... - trust.

        PS ... I remembered the joke:
        Chapaev and Petka in a bathhouse ...
        - Vasil Ivanovich! ... But your legs are dirtier than mine soldier
        -- angry ... Duc, I’m older than you Petka !! ........... laughing

        ... Peace, Labor, May! ... Happy Holiday !! fellow
  7. bald
    bald 1 May 2019 11: 02
    +1
    You see, the topic was previously closed. So he shot himself from the barrel under water and kept the flight of the bullet honestly furious at the speed

    .,
  8. beeper
    beeper 1 May 2019 11: 46
    +3
    Something, I didn't notice any special differences from the basic Steyr TMP, just "small cosmetics" ?! wink
    "SUPER SPEED" for such PPs is by no means a merit, but a GREAT DISADVANTAGE, with which competent gunsmith designers are fighting in all ways! yes
    According to the results of tests carried out back in the 20-30s of the last century, the German "pioneers of submachine gun construction" have reliably established that the "ideal rate of fire" of the PP, which ensures the control of weapons, acceptable controllability of automatic fire, is 450-650 rounds per minute ! The widespread practice of using PPs in World War II only confirmed those experimental data!
    "Ideal" PP created by the Germans and our gunsmiths; respectively, MP 38 (40) had a rate of fire of about 450 rds / min; and PPS-43 ~ 600 rds / min! The PPSh tempo was "imperfect" - excessively rapid-fire (for its properties in close combat, the ability to cut a person in half with an automatic burst of shots, the "daddy" was nicknamed "a meat grinder"!), But it was compensated by its phenomenal stability during automatic shooting, a large drum magazine capacity and good "melee" properties! yes
    With modern PPs, the same picture, for example, reducing the super-rate of fire to at least 1200 rounds per minute in their MP5 Kurtz, the Germans provided a "movable" tungsten insert in the bolt assembly, not to mention the super-rate of fire of the Mini and MicroUzi ...
    In the Czech "Scorpion" and the Soviet "KEDr (Design by Evgeny Dragunov)", and their derivatives, the "grip and lift" of the free bolt with a special retarder hook is used constructively to reduce the rate of fire.
    P.S. In this dubious combat effectiveness, the Swiss version of the Steyr TMP insists on a "three-shot cutoff" and a vertically folding stock (to reduce the transverse dimensions). IMHO
    1. Vladimir 5
      Vladimir 5 1 May 2019 12: 34
      +3
      The main thing is not to confuse the purpose of weapons, especially with military models. This weapon is FOR SPECIAL purposes (for the protection of persons, etc.), the priorities are different. The Israelis, with experience, have always focused on hitting the target with numerous hits, which excludes opposition. Many people understand the essence of mission and attribute the lack of virtues of a camel to a racehorse ...
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 1 May 2019 13: 21
        +7
        Quote: Vladimir 5
        Many people understand the essence of mission and attribute the lack of virtues of a camel to a racehorse ...

        Right Submachine guns have long ceased to be mass infantry weapons. And they occupied their pretty hard niches. And do not require samples for one niche of what is needed for another.
        Specifically in this area, any wagon will be universally bad 8)))
        A submachine gun for concealed carrying and special operations will be ineffective in assault actions. That, in turn, will be too bulky for military "self-defense weapons" of crews of equipment and specialists ... And so on.
        1. Doliva63
          Doliva63 1 May 2019 16: 12
          +5
          Quote: Spade
          Quote: Vladimir 5
          Many people understand the essence of mission and attribute the lack of virtues of a camel to a racehorse ...

          Right Submachine guns have long ceased to be mass infantry weapons. And they occupied their pretty hard niches. And do not require samples for one niche of what is needed for another.
          Specifically in this area, any wagon will be universally bad 8)))
          A submachine gun for concealed carrying and special operations will be ineffective in assault actions. That, in turn, will be too bulky for military "self-defense weapons" of crews of equipment and specialists ... And so on.

          That's all right. But. At the very beginning of the 90s, we went to the city with an AKS-74U in an "armpit holster". In the fall, it was, the machine gun under the jacket is completely invisible. The store, of course, is separate. In a real situation, I didn't have to use it, but at the training ground we "rehearsed" so that it takes 3 seconds to get it, fasten the magazine to the target, and cock it - it's a matter of XNUMX seconds, and now there is a group of guys with almost normal machine guns in front of you, ready to open fire. So universality in life has a place to be. laughing Especially when it comes to the army laughing drinks
      2. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 13: 44
        +2
        Many people understand the essence of mission and attribute the lack of virtues of a camel to a racehorse ...


        Absolutely ten. I confirm. Why do I need one or two humps?

        hi

        Very narrow scope.
      3. beeper
        beeper 1 May 2019 15: 17
        +2
        hi You, dear Vladimir 5, to be honest, discouraged me with your funny passage ... no, not about the "camel", but about the alleged "numerous hits" a priori uncontrollable (shooter), with a superspeed of 1100 rounds per minute, light PP compared to with the same light PP, but much more controlled, at a pace, for example, half the rate of 600 rounds / min. ?! smile I am sure that you will hardly feel the difference between them "in your hands" with a short non-aiming burst of 3-5 rounds ?! But for a confident aiming hit from a light short-barreled submachine gun at the target with automatic fire, "low rate" is preferable, because of the possibility of control over such a weapon during firing!
        So, "multiple hits on the target" will most likely provide several targeted short bursts "with a cut-off", rather than landing an entire 30-round magazine in the direction of the target in one short, 1,5 second, press with the "trigger finger" ?! wink After which such an unlucky "person's guard" will remain ACTUALLY UNARMED, forced to "recharge" feverishly ??! Yes, and released towards the insidious "assailant", a swarm of uncontrolled bullets will surely find in the crowd of ordinary people, onlookers and sincere admirers of the "person", and even several innocent victims of such zealous "protection" ??! request
        As a fairly experienced mechanical engineer (and a fairly experienced shooter, well, with a very large "shot", including from the "short barrels", sometimes, due to a malfunction of the trigger, which gave the same "super-fast fire mode" - an instant "shot "and the full store is gone, and in the growth target at close range there is only one aiming bullet, the rest of the bullets are all past!) I will tell you, although I already wrote this above (in my post so patronizingly carelessly commented on by you) that task in PCB design (regardless of SPECIAL goals! smile ) is in the maximum possible reduction in the rate of fire from "ultra-high (a priori due to small dimensions and strict weight restrictions)" to the minimum achievable, with a completely mechanical trigger design, which is very, very problematic and difficult to achieve, this is clearly seen from the ultra-high rate of fire of the same widely advertised compact PP: MP5K, Mini- and MicroUzi! request
        Yes, in the British (comparable in weight and dimensions to the described Steyr TMP) PP "Bushman", with the help of an electronic-mechanical retarder, it was possible to reach an acceptable pace of 450 rounds per minute, but this is only if the power supply batteries are changed in time and do not dip it into puddles , "wet mud" and swampy mud! smile
        I completely agree with you, dear Vladimir 5, with your deepest "philosophical thought" that many of us in VO are not at all Bedouins or jockeys at all, and we do not understand the "merits" of camels and racehorses, about which with thorough knowledge of the matter, write only exclusively to you! Bravo, my and, I am not afraid of this word, OUR highly esteemed Colleague! good
        1. Red_Baron
          Red_Baron 2 May 2019 17: 15
          0
          You know what is interesting, but the fact that you criticize someone without being based on ANYTHING. Suddenly?
          There are no references what you mean by the protection of a person. Description of the emptying of the store in 1,5 seconds due to a USM malfunction from a weapon not intended for such shooting is also interesting. Probably no need to be surprised at low accuracy. Well, a description of your shooting skills and qualifications is also extremely appropriate ... probably somewhere.
          It seems to me in this situation that we should not proceed from zadornovshchina like nuuu Americans (substitute anyone) nuuu fools. And then expose from never referring to the application. I understand that if you brought the words of people who practically use weapons in various operations and then share their experiences. That is, end users who in specific situations have experience understand what they need and why. After all, you like to shout about the couch experience, but now it turns out something similar, don’t you?
          I suggest looking at it from the other side. Firstly, as far as I can tell, the goals are quite close, these are 1-2 attacking people. The rest are engaged in much wider circles of protection, including snipers. For their non-neutralization, a light weapon that can be aimed at the target with one hand from almost any position is it. As mentioned above, worrying about bulletproof vests is also not necessary, because a close range will neutralize a protected target. about the townsfolk and onlookers - I do not think that the importance of the person and the injuries of others are comparable. when attacking, a similar moment. By the way, the secret service, if I am not mistaken, is armed with the MP5K whose rate of fire is not much lower.
          I will give some points from the book. I didn’t find it in electronic form, so I’ll try to briefly and close to the text, but in my own words.
          The SAS is armed with Ingram MAC10 and it was used precisely because of its small dimensions and high rate of fire. Moreover, as it is written, before adopting the MP5, this MAC10 was mainly used in anti-terrorist operations. Moreover, even 10-15 years after that, Ingrams were again used in operations in Ireland, again because of the high rate of fire. By the way, you can read about the actions of the SAS in Ireland and why they were called Death Squads there and that, including innocent citizens came under fire. But it happens, sorry not to ceremonies with a broken trigger.
          Let's go further - "For example, SMGs, which showed high firepower, proved to be excellent in hostage rescue operations, but are practically useless in prolonged raids. With a rate of fire of over 900 rounds per minute, SMGs will quickly exhaust the ammunition available to the patrol group."
          almost more quotes
          "PP, the maximum firing range of this weapon is 200m, the rate of fire is very high (usually 800-1000 rounds per minute), which allows you to destroy a terrorist with one pull of the trigger. This appetite means that the magazine can be emptied in a matter of seconds." Everything is as you said and it is emphasized.
          And here I’ll present a piece purely from memory, because, as I mentioned in the electronic form, I didn’t find it, and after looking through the book several times and choosing the relevant moments, I got it. But it’s easy to verify this, if you can refute anything. If my memory serves me in the course of one operation, on the detention (destruction) of several IRA militants, information was received that the car was mined by Simtex and that at any moment the militants could press the fuse and produce a huge explosion. So the last episode was with the driver, and his SAS fighters shot just from the high-speed PP, possibly the very Ingrams that were mentioned several times. There was a suspicion that the driver wanted to undermine and was simply stuffed with bullets, because (this is not my statement) when a bullet hit a person at a high rate, he could not control the body and therefore press the fuse. And so it happened, after the SAS fighters, as usual they accused of excessive cruelty and figured the number of bullets that hit the gunman.
          Perhaps similar moments play a role when using fast-firing PPs for close range operations - destroying the attacker without allowing him to take any action.
          1. beeper
            beeper 3 May 2019 00: 19
            -2
            Your "tricky entry", Red_Baron, was somehow too feminine, "mysteriously" - flirtatious (and with UNNOTE hints, they say, "I have to guess who I'm looking at!" ???), even I didn't understand right away (just from some contextual phrases I guessed, right ?! You are definitely not a woman with a nickname, man ?! winked ) that you seemed to "subscribe" to me ??! But then this phrase of yours is completely incomprehensible to me:
            After all, you like to shout about the couch experience, but now it turns out something similar, don’t you?

            Where and when was I noticed by you in a "similar scream" ?! tongue Probably, in your rage "just to pop ... to talk", you made a wrong address, because in relation to me you will not be able to justify your "present" - please, look through my current 1858 comments on the VO website and find at least one "screaming vapid" ?! smile
            Such impression, Red_Baron, that you invented for me, and then, in your own inventions, you "incriminate" me - I can clearly see this, since I have always treated and respect American engineering - there is something to learn and what to adopt, without any "zadornovschina", but also without yours, because such an obvious yes , ameroclamation! negative
            Have you really read the entire thread and my two previous posts, "history of the issue" ?! Did you understand why there was such my answer to the address of our colleague Vladimir 5 ??!
            After all, I clearly see that you have not at all understood what I have written above (otherwise you would not have written this post to me!), Are you on some kind of completely abstract "wave" of your own ?! winked Are you a friend-partner of Vladimir 5, but I answered him, why does he not "present", if there is anything ?! Either you, Red_Baron, think that I somehow "unjustly offended" him for "wise equivocations" about the "dignity of cloven-hoofed animals" or I personally hurt you when I politely agreed with Vladimir 5 that among such true experts in the "dignity" of camels and there is only one horse on the VO, but it turns out that there is not only one, but you too ?! request
            About the rate of fire and the rate of automatic fire, which provides satisfactory controllability of the weapon during firing, I have already written enough above, sapienti sat!
            Become, at least for a short time, an attentive reader, and not just an anecdotal "writer"! wink
            In 1,5 ÷ 1,6 seconds, a 30-round magazine is emptied at a rate of fire of 1100 rounds per minute, WITH A FUNCTIONAL USM, and no "faulty trigger", I repeat again, be careful when reading! smile And, in general, uninvited, but I see that the advice you need in life, on the development of clarity of thinking, is to learn to pose (first of all, to yourself!) The right questions and to distinguish, without confusing places, causes and consequences, you have obvious ones with this " flaws "?!
            TOPIC Articles about the design of the PP-I was interested in it, and savor with "ardent young men (on the military-technical site still" PRESS ON THE CHICK "??? request ) "some kind of" book "about the suicides committed by the SAS and the IRA is completely uninteresting to me (I humbly ask you to dismiss me from such a dubious" pleasure ", here we have enough of our banderonazi" death squads "with their murderous" affairs "- the end not visible, so look for another fan of "counting bullet holes"!)!
            1. Red_Baron
              Red_Baron 4 May 2019 13: 48
              0
              Actually, this is what I expected. You only confirmed the correctness of my words and conclusions.
              Your cutesy tackles are not appropriate here, go to the dating site, I think you can build "eyes" and so on. I understand that you are implying that gray hair in a beard is a devil in the rib, and you are filling yourself up like a real coquette, but I don’t think that VO will appreciate it, here people have a normal orientation. So spare me your parades. We will have normal soon.

              I am surprised that every line of your text yells about one thing, that you are a talker and not a man. About your cutesy coquetry I wrote above, and even thinking about what is on your mind disgusting. But it's not only that. A normal, healthy-headed man would not, like you otmazyvatsya from your own words, would not talk in vain. He would have had the courage to admit that he was wrong, especially when, as you would get wet in your chatter. A large number of emoticons for all occasions confirm the hysteria of your nature. But you, as always, forgot about the main thing. This site is not about your ill health. I repeat when I saw your tweaks and chatter, I was forced to remind you that you are wrong. That you write nonsense and could not guess to refer to someone’s experience in using weapons, if you write about its use. It would seem - this is elementary, but a certain substance that has hit your head and made you so arrogant does not allow you to look soberly.
              I am very embarrassed for you. Even despite your illegibility in terms of orientation and demons. I’m embarrassed that you couldn’t overpower yourself and not be a talker.
              I saw a lot of stupidity, but such tricks are not often. Even your appeals to my words are nasty, like your obscene hints and suggestions. Why are you hiding behind Vladimir 5? Nobody offends you, lower your rainbow flag and grab your head, she is ashamed of you. I don’t know what disputes you have and this is your business; don’t assign me to them. I repeat, I answered the specific stupidity of your post.
              --- "In 1,5 ÷ 1,6 seconds, a 30-round magazine is emptied at a rate of fire of 1100 rounds per minute, WITH A FUNCTIONAL USM, and no" faulty trigger ", I repeat, be careful when reading!" are your words now.
              Now let's see what you wrote earlier and this is the most interesting.
              --- "at a superspeed of 1100 rounds per minute, a light PP compared to the same light PP, but much more controllable, at a rate, for example, half the rate of 600 rounds / min." - pay attention to the words "superspeed" further you continue
              --- "So," multiple hits on the target "will most likely provide several targeted short bursts" with a cut-off ", rather than landing an entire 30-round magazine in the direction of the target in one short, 1,5 second, trigger finger press ?! "
              That is, with the "superspeed of fire" landing the store in one short 1,5 second press. We read further.
              --- "sometimes, due to a malfunction of the trigger, which gave the same," super-fast fire mode "- an instant" tyrk "and a full store is gone"
              Here it is - the very "superspeed", though already correctly written.
              And now we take your female logic. At first, the ultra-fast fire allowed to shoot the store in 1,5 seconds. And then the same superfast mode is no longer 1,5 seconds, how is that? So when you believe it, if you are so easily hypocritical, depending on what is profitable for you to prove. You should at least memorize what you write, and n rush to chat faster and shame. They proved with such pathos, but it turned out they just forgot that they were chatting once again a grief scribbler. And everything else is the same, the same chatter and empty. And when I brought you the words from the book about real users of weapons. You just hysterical and started telling another tale that this is murder and so on. Yeah, and weapons are created in order to write about him on the forums. Shame on you, you yourself are hinting at your old age, and should be an example for the very youth whom you are trying to represent others. And what do we see - the abundance of female grmons, loose stools that you managed and the inability to remember what you wrote on the post earlier. Apparently old age is rightly said - not joy.
              "Where and when was I seen by you in a" similar scream "?!" - Yes, that's just :) and all your comments are as liquid and hysterical as these. You should undergo medical treatment, grandpa, and not rush to lie and grimace, tea is not a monkey.
              "THEME Articles about the design of the PP - I was interested in it" - what is this, if not your usual lies? You even forgot what you wrote yourself earlier, it is clear where you remember the title of the article. "MP9. Super fast-firing submachine gun for special forces" - as I understand it, you think that special forces are constructors? I don’t want to upset you, but most likely not: D These are the people whom I mentioned by citing quotes from the book, what you fooled about and started fooling around.
              Hold on to your mind, and don’t sin, I have helped with everything I could help, then it’s your business. Alas, your scribbles do not cause me optimism and I do not believe that you will be able to gain courage and look at yourself soberly, few people have enough courage for this.
              1. beeper
                beeper 4 May 2019 17: 19
                -1
                Gore that year with such hysterics, you simply gush, Red_Baron, I only get stronger in the thought that behind a man's nickname is a woman's guise ?! And yet, in psychology there is such a pattern, popularly called in simple words: "everyone understands to the extent of his depravity," alas, this is about you too, my "rainbow friend"!
                Again, you, your own "wet fantasies", ascribe to me to savor the "LGBT theme" You have come to the wrong address, and the VO site itself is also not profile for such (but, I confess, with this serious "rainbow" burst of yours you surprised me unspeakably - this, it turns out, is like in a school "sea battle" - "accidental hit", to be honest, absolutely and in my thoughts there was no irony to hurt your, a priori flawed, "self-esteem" ?!)!
                With logic and mathematics, you, Red_Baron, I see, great difficulties, the simplest arithmetic operations are not able to perform, cause-and-effect relationships and the meaning of what you read do not "catch" at all, or you, as in the joke, "are not a reader at all, but only a writer ", so, it seems, you refer to" read books "?! winked
                It seems that I feed the baby from a spoon, chewing it to the smallest detail, so that, God forbid, not choke smile - with a faulty trigger in the pistol (with its short barrel, a relatively light free breechblock and up to the limit limited by the length of its recoil), 5-8 rounds of automatic fire are fired at a super-fast rate, much greater than even 1100 rounds per minute of the above-described PP-by sound, as a slightly longer single shot, in terms of recoil, taking into account the rotational movement relative to the persistent "fork" of the hand, it is also not much stronger.
                Even with a heavily loaded barrel, with the "ultra forward centering" of the weapon, the barrel uncontrollably "lifts up" so that only one bullet hits the target's body at close range, even the second is already sweeping over the shoulder!
                About everything else, if something is not clear, carefully re-read my previous posts, I see that you are not "Odessa" and are "on your own wave", so continue to spend the rest of your time on absurd yes "PUNCHER KURK, Karl!" do not consider it appropriate!
                No offense, buddy, maybe you are "in life" well-mannered and good, reasonably well-read and even smart, lad (or maiden), I do not argue, but you do not leave such an impression on me with these "writings" of yours! request
                1. Red_Baron
                  Red_Baron 5 May 2019 11: 15
                  -1
                  More hysteria, this looks like your signature female hysterical style. As I wrote in advance, you weren’t a man, and there was no courage to see your mistakes. All that was smart enough was your favorite gay themes and just repeating my words about me. It is a pity that such an elderly matron is smart enough for just that.
                  No offense, perhaps you are an experienced pedagogical activist, a prominent figure in the LGBT community, but you are just a hysterical girl who is not capable of anything but ridiculous excuses. They even managed to forget what they wrote at the beginning of the post and got two super-rate of fire. And the excuse is even worse - I'm not me and not my horse, I deny all words. You would start from this, tell that the drunk were as always and did not understand anything. But we did not know that then there would be so many tears, so many coveted attempts to get curved. And so no one would get involved and dunk such a miserable personality into their own words, would leave such an obsequious lie and bawl of different nonsense. I see that your geydol is heavy, no one understands you.
                  "carefully re-read my previous posts" - but I told you why I need these antics of a silly pedril. You can't even remember what you write, and then you make excuses for several posts.
                  "so that only one bullet hits the target's body at close range, even the second is already sweeping over the shoulder!" - but it is interesting that you, as a "ardent young man" tell such nasty things, you yourself frowned higher and cried how awful it is. Oh, yes, again they forgot what they wrote and now you no longer contradict shooting at people. What a bloodthirsty feminist you are. :) I know, I know, you will make excuses that it is not about people who wrote that the goal is a target and it also has shoulders. Thank you, I laughed again.
                  Darling, I hope you don’t have enough of a blow from experiences there, train your female logic, which is what remains request
                  1. beeper
                    beeper 5 May 2019 15: 42
                    -1
                    Nda, you, Red_Baron, hysterical man, what ?! This is even worse than a hysterical woman! smile IMHO.
                    Do not flatter yourself, there is no excuse for my answers to you!
                    All your "presentations" are unreasonable - this is an unequivocal diagnosis for you (so that I do not run into an extra warning from the site moderator, ask your adult acquaintances what is usually called a foolish chela who failed to substantiate their "presentations" and where is his real place)! lol
                    I am truly sorry for you!
                    PS last time I forgot and did not have time to inform you, Red_Baron, my first Plus (which, out of respect, I usually put to opponents) I, on reflection, canceled you as erroneous, obviously stimulating, clearly "preoccupied", stupid person for further verbal "bowel movements", uh, dear! No.
                    1. Red_Baron
                      Red_Baron 6 May 2019 11: 41
                      -1
                      Finally, even in your shameful hysteria, you confessed that you were a woman. Not only does this honor you, but at least it’s clear who it is. Your excuses were ridiculous both then and now. Regarding groundlessness, do not flatter yourself. I have confirmed every soaking of you, either in your own words, or justifications why this is not true. And all your chatter was off topic. You can’t admit that you are wrong, coupled with hysteria, myriads of emoticons, like a child’s, just confirm schizophrenia. But with your gay theme and pestering men, you went too far, it’s a complete disgrace, pour out your concern on special thematic sites, for sure there are those for elderly and not healthy individuals.
                      I do not see you as a person, you are a typical representative of a saucepan and not the best, over time it seems a bit dull. I see you at one time clearly indicated the place of people like you since then you ceased to be a man and became so hysterical :) I feel sorry for you, and even more sorry for the society, which is forced to endure similar phenomena. Ask healthier people what they mean when they write this word.
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 13: 47
      +2
      "SUPER SPEED" for such PPs is by no means a merit, but a GREAT DISADVANTAGE, with which competent gunsmith designers are fighting in all ways!


      Exactly!

      The rate of fire may only be needed when you clean the premises and you know in advance that there are all enemies, but you cannot use the grenade for any reason.

      For security, this rate of fire is the enemy.

      Absolutely true!

      hi
  9. SERGEY SERGEEVICS
    SERGEY SERGEEVICS 1 May 2019 11: 58
    0
    Of course, he has more disadvantages than positive qualities.
  10. Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 13: 32
    +3
    Here we have such a miracle sold for 2500+ euros. Without auto fire, of course.

    https://www.bt-ag.ch/shop/eng/bt-usw/bt-universal-service-weapon--usw-a1-kal-9-x-19-bt-430001


    B @ T USW-A1


    Then they write in English, which is accepted by the European police as a response of lawyers to the latest intrigues of terrorists in Europe. And the men didn’t know about the Makarov pistol!

    In order to react to the quickly changing threats faced by police forces all over Europe, especially those threats presented by terrorist, law enforcement needs to quickly rethink its armament. The recent terroristic attacks have proven, today's police side arms are not able to cope with an opponent armed with military assault rifles and bomb vests.
    This is the main reason for the development of the Universal Service Weapon (USW). It was to designed to be a weapon which enables the first responder, thus the normal patrol officer, to intervene effectively in the event of a terrorist event. It is also a sidearm that is suitable for every kind of “normal” police work.
  11. AllBiBek
    AllBiBek 1 May 2019 13: 54
    +1
    In order to achieve the same density of fire in short with the same accuracy and in the same dimensions of the weapon, there is a much simpler, cheaper, and reliable option. It is called "lupara", it is also the edge of the vertical.
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 15: 15
      +1
      Only if the PP (bad guy) does not have body armor or has time to send the lupar to the Bosko. Or if YOU are significantly more than PP (bad guys).

      For some reason, everyone thinks that MYSELF is always more than PP. But, after all, it can be vice versa. Then, from Lupara, one shot is good, and then YOUR body should be buried in a police cemetery with a flag and a salute.

      hi

      So you can agree to a 200-year-old .58 caliber capsule pistol. Also not enough at such a distance. Charge the card.

      laughing
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 1 May 2019 16: 18
        0
        Quote: Horse, people and soul
        Only if the PP (bad guy) does not have body armor or has time to send the lupar to the Bosko. Or if YOU are significantly more than PP (bad guys).

        For some reason, everyone thinks that MYSELF is always more than PP. But, after all, it can be vice versa. Then, from Lupara, one shot is good, and then YOUR body should be buried in a police cemetery with a flag and a salute.

        hi

        So you can agree to a 200-year-old .58 caliber capsule pistol. Also not enough at such a distance. Charge the card.

        laughing

        Which of the lupars - 2 rounds per target, which of the total - 15-25 per target. What is the difference if point blank and to the head? laughing
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 17: 09
          +1
          Of course, there is no difference if one on one, but this does not always happen.

          And if there are more than two PPs (bad guys), and they are not gentlemen, wait until KP (good guy) with lupara reloads it. Then HP will be HGDP (a good, but stupid and dead guy).

          There is definitely a difference.

          laughing
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 1 May 2019 17: 31
          0
          Quote: Doliva63
          Which of the lupars - 2 rounds per target

          2 x 34 grams = 68 grams
          Quote: Doliva63
          which of the total - 15-25 in one goal.

          15 x 7,45 = 112 grams
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 18: 14
            +1
            Two shots from lupara are two targets.

            15 PP shots - how many targets? Theoretically 15. Practically - exactly more than two.

            hi

            No one will wait for the luparu to be recharged.
  12. serge siberian
    serge siberian 1 May 2019 18: 42
    0
    Well, the FSO still consider the "cutaway" in the case to be a worthy piece of equipment for a bodyguard.
    PS "ubrez" -AKS-74U.
  13. looker-on
    looker-on 1 May 2019 21: 13
    0
    Quote: Spade
    Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
    Silent (just low noise relative to ordinary) shooting and armor-piercing properties are two opposites.

    Why does he need armor piercing? A dozen subsonic bullets in the chest, even through body armor, will prove to be a very weighty argument. If these bullets fly to the extremities, then here you can give your soul to God from pain shock and subsequent blood loss.

    Do not forget, this is not a gun, this is PP with a rate of 18 bullets per second.

    Well, actually, the Glock 18 has a slightly longer barrel and the weight is lower. And the rate of fire is even higher. So for me the MP9 is a strange weapon. The handle gives advantages and control, but the handle can also be mounted on the Glock. So for me it's a strange weapon .I would choose Glock 18 + if you want automatic fire then 30 charging stores for it
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 22: 08
      +1
      Yes, KPOS, for example. Today you just need a gun, and tomorrow put it in KPOS and shoot more accurately, faster and twice as far.

      Any Glock installation (illegal) but on eBay and Aliexpress for the part sold for 10 euros (the back lock plate of the shutter with the auto-fire / semi-auto button installed) becomes automatic while there are cartridges.

      Barrel length is no problem for the Glock. You can buy a native Glokovsky barrel for 200 euros - with a thread for a silencer. It is longer. A bit. But this is purple, because you can buy a non-native 300 "or 10" barrel for 16 euros. With such a barrel, you can shoot at 100-150 meters without problems (with KPOS).

      And these stores with 31 rounds (31 plus 2) work badly for me. There are two pieces and I do not use them anymore. It’s better to change the normal 17/19 charging magazine on the run between targets than to eliminate the delay when the cartridge does not feed on a 33-battery.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 1 May 2019 22: 24
        +1
        In fairness, Glock 18 is specially made for automatic shooting. But it is not accessible to civilians. But an (illegal) part is available that gives civilians (illegal) the opportunity to try auto racing, until they feel sorry for the money spent on the burned cartridges. Or until legalists get caught with this prodigy.

        laughing

        Normal Glock after hundreds of rounds of auto-fire can overheat. So the trick with the (illegal) detail is not for combat use.
  14. SASHA OLD
    SASHA OLD 2 May 2019 06: 03
    +2
    incorrectly call MP9 a copy of the Austrian Steyr TMP

    ok ...
    The Swiss gunsmiths took the Steyr TMP as the basis and brought the weapon to a commercially successful project, introducing a number of changes and improvements to the design, in particular, improved the fuse and added a folding butt to the right. The main changes, one way or another, related to the tactical body kit

    if this is not copying then what is it?
    At the same time, experts note that the Swiss MP9 bypasses the American submachine gun MAC Ingram Model 10 in such an indicator as accuracy.

    even a shovel thrown by a drunken grave digger will more accurately fly than the line from Ingram, they found something to compare
    The weapon is equipped with Picatinny rail guides, which are installed on the sides, above and below the submachine gun and are used to install various body kit elements

    if the emphasis is on hidden wearing, then all the "rails" and the body kit are not needed, even some "rails will interfere with both hidden wearing and when pulling the weapon out from under clothing, as well as the front handle (ideally, it should be removable, and so that without it there were no protrusions on the weapon
    The design of the MP 9 uses a rather rare method of locking the barrel - turning it around its own axis by 45 degrees. From a technical point of view, this is not the simplest solution, which provides the weapon with a good degree of reliability of the automation and allows it to achieve super-rate of fire, which is one of the distinguishing features of the Swiss submachine gun. In addition to the complexity associated with manufacturing technology, experts highlight another feature. A certain difficulty is the installation of the PBS (it cannot rotate with the barrel), especially for this, the designers of Brugger & Thomet had to install a small branch pipe - a false barrel, to which the muffler is attached.

    are too smart
    The model is compact in size, the submachine gun is not much larger than the widely used Glock 18 automatic pistols in the world

    MP9 performance characteristics:
    Caliber - 9 mm.
    Cartridge - 9x19 mm Parabellum.
    Rate of fire - up to 1100 rds / min.
    Barrel length - 130 mm.
    Length - 303 mm (with folded butt), 523 mm (maximum).
    The width is 50 mm.
    Height - 276 mm (with a magazine and a sight).
    Weight - 1,7 kg (with a sight and with a magazine for 30 cartridges).
    Shops - on 15, 20, 25 and 30 cartridges (translucent).

    But about Glock ..:
    Weight, kg 0,58
    0,62 (Glock 18C)
    (without store)
    0,90 (with store)
    Length, mm 233
    186 (Glock 18C)
    Barrel length, mm 149
    114 (Glock 18C)
    Cartridge 9 × 19 mm Parabellum
    Caliber mm 9
    Principles of operation recoil of the barrel in its short course
    Rate of fire
    rounds / min 1200
    starting speed
    bullets, m / s 350
    the most capacious magazine with 33 rounds

    well, yes, "quite a bit larger and heavier", yeah ...
    at the same time, Glock’s barrel length is longer, the store is more capacious and rate of fire is higher, I understand of course that stitching in queues is not for a gun, even if it’s automatic, the barrel goes nuts earlier than for PP ...
    but since we are talking about a "bodyguard" orientation, then the duration of the battle is low, in a short period the Glock will give the density of fire no worse, while wearing it is clearly more convenient, grabbing it too, although it is a weapon of a different class, but since the article compares and both options may be for bodyguards, and there it is the speed of reaction to the situation and the fastest possible withdrawal of the "client" from the dangerous zone, and for this you need to quickly draw out the weapon - quickly grab a much smoother Glock than this "squared all in Picatinny" PP, faster aim him at the target and open fire while the partner leads the client behind the obstacle, covering himself ...
    and if we take purely PP, for example Micro Uzi, then I would take the Uzi: it's simpler, there are more capacious stores, even if you don't count the drum ones, with those in general a "pocket anti-aircraft gun" turns out, though you can forget about stealth. It also has protruding parts that can interfere with quick grabbing, it works a little harder than the MP9 due to a simpler mechanism, but more reliable, who wants a Picatinny - there is a version "Pro" - Uzi is an old, proven PP, while .. ...
    In the design of MP 9, a rather rare way of locking the barrel is used - turning around its own axis by 45 degrees. From a technical point of view, this is not the simplest solution, which provides the weapon with a good degree of reliability of the automation and allows you to achieve super-rate of fire, which is one of the hallmarks of the Swiss submachine gun

    Uzi’s pace is even higher, and vice versa, not because of the complexity of the mechanism but because of its primitive simplicity (and therefore higher reliability)
    The disadvantages of both are the same - as with most PPs with this arrangement: the gas contamination of the shooter's face, relatively small aiming range, but it doesn’t matter for a quick short-range shootout, if the enemy got a gun 10-15 meters away, it’s the reaction speed, the ability to quickly grab a weapon and the possibility of guaranteed defeat
    in short, I would take an Uzi or Glock "to work" and from the 13th salary, "telka" would buy myself this toy from the article, let it be at home, beautiful, dear, all in Picatinny - cool
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 2 May 2019 06: 55
      +1
      For 400 euros, any full-size and compact Glock becomes just such a toy, "all in Picatinny" with a folding front handle, butt and wearing on a rubber loop over the shoulder under the armpit. This prodigy is pulled out as quickly as a pistol.
      1. SASHA OLD
        SASHA OLD 2 May 2019 16: 52
        +1
        Quote: Horse, people and soul
        For 400 euros, any full-size and compact Glock becomes just such a toy, "all in Picatinny" with a folding front handle, butt and wearing on a rubber loop over the shoulder under the armpit. This prodigy is pulled out as quickly as a pistol.

        Good day, I know that you are a fan and an active Glock user: I often read your comments - no wonder you answered. I fired from the Glock only once at the range, it was the 17th Glock - 3rd generation, one familiar officer from the SOBR gave it to shoot. I really liked how it "lies" under the clothes (we were just passing the next testing for advanced training), how to grab it - just like Makarov - without problems, under a jacket, demi-season jacket or, as in my case - under a coat - it is convenient to wear: does not stick out, does not interfere, always at hand ... very convenient, of course I can not say anything about reliability - not my gun, but I think SOBR would not use it if it were flimsy. I really liked it, much, much better than Grach from Yarygin, I also managed to shoot with him, and on the same day I also shot from Grach - immediately the comparison is "obvious" so to speak.
        I'm not a fan of all these "rails", of course they are needed, no doubt about it. But if there is a picatinny on a weapon for self-defense, then let it be done so that at a critical moment this rail does not catch on the zipper lock, like on the Glock, in fact, after all, something like a "dovetail", that is, without numerous cross cutouts and heaps of angular edges
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 2 May 2019 17: 21
          +1
          Hello Sasha,

          Glock still does not have a dovetail under the barrel, but quite a tire compatible with Picatinny rail. I don’t cling to it. Not necessary. But if you put the gun in the KPOS carabiner, this tire is used to fix the gun inside the carabiner kit.

          Unlike Shiga, whose tire is very barbed, Glock’s tire is made in plastic and is definitely not barbed. I have one Glock of the 4th generation, the other of the 5th.
          1. SASHA OLD
            SASHA OLD 2 May 2019 17: 27
            +2
            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            Glock still doesn’t have a dovetail under the barrel, but quite a bus compatible with Picatinny

            yes, yes, I understand that, it’s just like the dovetail - smooth, with one transverse recess, as I understand it - it is very neatly executed to fix the device, it doesn’t stick out
            1. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul 2 May 2019 17: 40
              0
              Yes, a transverse groove for attaching the device.

              hi
  15. Red_Baron
    Red_Baron 2 May 2019 17: 16
    0
    Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
    For security, this rate of fire is the enemy.

    To protect what? Ships passing near Somalia? Maybe.
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 2 May 2019 17: 38
      +2
      To protect what? Ships passing near Somalia? maybe


      PKM is more suitable for protecting ships off the coast of Somalia than such crap.

      Pirates fit on high-speed boats and are themselves armed with machine guns and grenade launchers against the general background of Kalash.

      What can this bzdykalka offer against PKM, RPG and Kalash? IMHO, nothing.
      1. Red_Baron
        Red_Baron 2 May 2019 21: 47
        0
        That was the irony. In the sense that the protection is different.
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 2 May 2019 22: 24
          0
          The effect of printed text. He does not convey thoughts properly.

          drinks
  16. Red_Baron
    Red_Baron 2 May 2019 17: 18
    0
    Quote: SASHA OLD
    in short, I would take an Uzi or Glock "to work" and from the 13th salary, "telka" would buy myself this toy from the article, let it be at home, beautiful, dear, all in Picatinny - cool

    As far as I understand from the article - it is mentioned rich equipment and lists the handle and sight and trims. Most likely they are removed.
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 2 May 2019 17: 35
      +1
      The correct handle is not only removable. But it’s also folding. And then there is a handle with folding bipod.

      yes
    2. SASHA OLD
      SASHA OLD 2 May 2019 17: 43
      +2
      Quote: Red_Baron
      As far as I understand from the article - it is mentioned rich equipment and lists the handle and sight and trims. Most likely they are removed.

      I also understood that, just looking at the forearm with the handle, I still did not understand how this handle is removed, probably only with the forearm, it is replaced by the forearm without the arm ...
      about the rich set: the most valuable thing in it is the glushak: because the office used to specialize in them, it means they must be very good, but in Russia, according to the laws, only security officials can have them. And sights with flashlights can be taken separately. It's just that, again, I look at it from my bell tower: when I worked in cash collection, escorting especially valuable cargo in Gazprom, as a bodyguard (both from the company and "personal"), nowhere is a silencer needed, in general, on the contrary, during that work it is better to make more noise , a flashlight is also not needed - it will interfere with the pulling out, you need a weapon by itself, without a "rich set", but yes - it is important for someone, especially if you consider that buying "everything at once in a set" - provided that most of this kit will be in demand) is often cheaper than if you take everything separately.
      at work, we used the usual IZH-71, IZH-70, MR-133S, without a butt which (accompanied by cargo) - like this

      it's me in the photo (10-12 years ago), saiga-410
      with the PP fired only at the "Lebyazhiy" range - this is the Ministry of Internal Affairs local range
      1. Red_Baron
        Red_Baron 2 May 2019 21: 55
        0
        It seems to me that rich equipment is a kind of economic or marketing move. Yet Switzerland. A country producing magnificent products but not at war since the Middle Ages and its famous mercenaries.
        1. SASHA OLD
          SASHA OLD 2 May 2019 22: 07
          +3
          Quote: Red_Baron
          It seems to me that rich equipment is a kind of economic or marketing move. Yet Switzerland. A country producing magnificent products but not at war since the Middle Ages and its famous mercenaries.

          yeah)
          "Landsknechts are over, but from them there are pikes, halberds, flambergs, arquebusses - in assortment, a richly decorated Bible goes with melee weapons, a manual for carakol goes to the arquebus)
  17. cat Rusich
    cat Rusich 2 May 2019 21: 35
    +2
    MP9 is good PP - which you don't need.
    1. SASHA OLD
      SASHA OLD 2 May 2019 22: 07
      +1
      exactly right in color!
  18. hohol95
    hohol95 2 May 2019 23: 36
    +1
    Dear Author! Why in your article there is NO indication that the specified software was created on the basis of the gun Steyr tmp!
    WikiWiki -
    TMP (Eng. Tactical Machine Pistol - tactical automatic pistol) - automatic pistol chambered for 9 × 19 mm Parabellum, manufactured by the Austrian company Steyr Mannlicher.
    Mass production of weapons was launched in late 1992.
    Options -
    SPP - self-loading version, a gun without a front handle. The barrel is elongated.
    MP9 is a submachine gun created by Brugger + Thomet AG based on TMP. The main differences: the presence of a folding butt to the right and Picatinny rail for the installation of additional sights.
    There are also options for MP9, such as TP9, TP9SF, TP9 Carbine, MP9-FX, MP9-M.
    1. Red_Baron
      Red_Baron 4 May 2019 13: 01
      -1
      Is not it so?
      "At the same time, the submachine gun has Austrian roots, but it is wrong to call the MP9 a copy of the Austrian Steyr TMP (from the English Tactical Machine Pistol), developed by the famous company Steyr Mannlicher in the arms world and produced since 1992. In the early 2000s, the release of the submachine gun The Steyr TMP in Austria ended. At the same time Brugger & Thomet acquired the license, production rights and received all the technical documentation for this model. The Swiss gunsmiths took the Steyr TMP as a basis and brought the weapon to a commercially successful project. "
      Well, only TMP is not a gun, but a PP.
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 4 May 2019 22: 36
        0
        Thanks for pointing out the inattention while reading the article! hi
        1. Red_Baron
          Red_Baron 5 May 2019 11: 42
          0
          Quote: hohol95
          Thanks for pointing out the inattention while reading the article!

          Yes, what are you. You just pointed out a very interesting point. I’m repeating this in my head over and over again. There was TMP not that unknown, more known than many. But I can’t say anything about using it everywhere. I do not know. Probably not. Ceases to be issued. And then he appears, but somewhat ennobled. And again it enters the market with a commercially successful project. And even adopted by the state structures of quite a few countries. Is this the magic of the market? There was no stock, but there were additional ones that could be installed. We set the bar.
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 5 May 2019 21: 48
            0
            VO article - SPP Pistol. TMP software bullying
            31th of October 2013
            Austrian marketers were weaker than Swiss.