Point of support. What is more useful for the fleet: one nuclear cruiser or three frigates?

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The fate of the heavy nuclear missile cruiser (TARKR) “Admiral Lazarev” until recently remained a subject of heated debate. Pessimists said that the ship, which went into operation in 1984, no longer has a chance to survive to modernization, similar to that which is currently undergoing a ship of the same type, "Admiral Nakhimov." Indeed, the deadlines for its completion are constantly shifting to the right, everything began in 2018, now it is called 2022, and who can guarantee that there will not be new progress? At the same time, "Peter the Great", the only cruiser of this type, remaining in the current fleet, commissioned back in 1998 and since then has not undergone any major repair or modernization.

In 2022, Mr. Peter the Great will "knock" on 24 of the year, and it is obvious that he should take the place of Admiral Nakhimov - if we want, of course, that this ship continues to guard the maritime borders of the Fatherland. But in this case, the modernization of "Admiral Lazarev" can not begin before the end of the 20-s of this century (an important qualification in the realities of our shipbuilding industry). But is it worth while to take on a ship whose age is close to 45 years?




"Admiral Lazarev", still alive


Thus, the pessimists have already written off the Admiral Lazarev, but the optimists, as always, hoped for the best. To the author’s deep regret, it seems that pessimists turned out to be right this time - they passed recently news that our oldest TARKRs, Admiral Ushakov and Admiral Lazarev, will still be utilized, and even the amounts provided for their liquidation are named.

Despite the fact that the author of this article in that dispute belonged to the inveterate pessimists, it hurts him to realize that the Admiral Lazarev will never return to the current fleet. Apparently, somewhere deep in the soul, there was still hope for a miracle, which, alas, did not happen. But ... maybe this is right?

Do we really need nuclear cruisers?


The news that the most powerful nuclear-powered cruiser will soon go on its last journey caused quite a heated discussion, during which such a point of view was expressed. The explanation is simple: for the money that could be spent on upgrading the TARKR project 1144, it would be possible to build several frigates or nuclear submarines, the benefits of which will be much greater than from the giant missile cruiser. Let's try to figure out whether this is so.

The first thing I would like to note is that, unfortunately, there is no exact data on the cost of upgrading the Admiral Nakhimov. In 2012, Mr. A. Shlemov, at that time - the head of the state defense order department estimated its value at 50 billion rubles, of which 30 billion rubles. should have spent on restoring the technical readiness of the cruiser, and 20 billion rubles. - on the purchase of new weapons. However, this figure, unfortunately, does not clarify, but rather only confuses the matter. For example, Izvestia, referring to this interview, reported that at that time the cost of the 22380 corvette was 10 billion rubles, and that of the 22350 frigate was 18 billion rubles. Hence, in a number of publications, it was concluded that the cost of upgrading TARKR would be about the price of approximately 5 new corvettes or 2,5 frigates. But where did such prices come from?

According to the open press, the cost of the head corvette of the 20380 “Steregushchy” project increased from the planned 6 billion rubles. (rounded) to 13 billion rubles, and in fact we are talking about a ship that did not receive the Redut air defense system. At the same time, the contract price (excluding VAT) of serial 20380 corvettes ordered for construction in 2014 was over 17 billion rubles. If we bring these prices in 2012 according to official inflation, then it turns out that the cost of the 20380 project corvette was over 15 billion rubles, that is, five corvettes for 50 billion rubles. it would be impossible to build.

But you need to understand that the figure voiced by A. Shlemov is of a preliminary nature, and that according to the results of the survey of the ship, the cost of repairing and upgrading it has obviously increased significantly. Thus, we come to what we started with - the exact cost of work on Admiral Nakhimov is, alas, incomprehensible.

Nevertheless, we are probably not mistaken too much by assuming that the cost of returning this nuclear cruiser to service will be equivalent to the cost of building three Adriral Gorshkov 22350 frigates. Here with them we will compare the upgraded cruiser.

What will "Admiral Nakhimov" get?


Unfortunately, not much more is known about the features of its modernization than about the cost. Absolutely reliably, perhaps, only that the place 20 PKR "Granit" will take 80 mines UKKS, intended for "Onyxes", "Caliber", and, obviously, "Zircons". It is also known (but this is slightly less reliable) that no C-400 will be put on TARKR, and the C-300F complexes present there will be modified to C-300FM. But what about the rest ...

In various publications it was repeatedly stated that the “Admiral Nakhimov” will receive the “Polyment-Redut” system, and this was extremely logical. The fact is that, in contrast to the “Peter the Great”, which has at least gradually becoming obsolete, but still formidable SAM “Dagger”, the “Admiral Nakhimov” was armed almost useless in the modern naval combat AMS “Osa-M”. Obviously, replacing them with more modern complexes is uncontested, and here “Poliment-Redut” would be the best fit - a relatively compact, but at the same time, the most modern Russian maritime SAM.

Nevertheless, the intrigue was preserved - solely due to the fact that the developers of Poliment-Redut could not manage to bring their offspring to standard, and if so, then why put an inoperative air defense missile system on board? However, relatively recently, the matter still went smoothly - the head frigate of the 22350 series, carrying this complex in a complete set (that is, not only the Redut air defense system, but also relying on it according to the Polimer radar project) fleet, and its land analogue, the air defense system "Vityaz", was able to still complete state tests.


The main frigate of the project 22350 "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov"


Again, for reasons not related to the air defense system, the series of frigates of the 22350 project was strongly delayed in construction, which means that the production capacities will not be overloaded with orders for Polimet-Redut in the near future. Thus, it can be assumed that the production of this complex for “Admiral Nakhimov” will not cause any special problems. How many total missile launchers will be installed on TARKR is difficult to say, but given their compactness, we should expect at least a hundred mines. In the end, there was a place for 128 "Daggers" on "Peter the Great"?

But what will happen to the SARS-s is completely unclear. "Nakhimov" had 6 installations "Dirk", but they may well go for a replacement - yet the complex entered service with 30 years ago, in 1989. However, what exactly would it be changed for? The “budget” option is not excluded, in which the “Dirks” will be refined to “Kortik-M”, if it is technically possible at all, but this, frankly, will not be the best solution. According to the author of this article, the sailors did not speak very well of both the Kortik itself and its modification. Let's just say that there is an opinion that the complex works more or less decently only in “greenhouse” conditions, but in the sea, in combat services, something constantly goes wrong with it.

If so, then for Admiral Nakhimov there are 2 other options. It is possible that ZAK “Palash”, which are a purely artillery, missile-free complex, will be installed on TARKR, since initially, when it was created, the Palash was supposed to be mated with Polyment-Redoubt, so that they had to complement each other.

Point of support. What is more useful for the fleet: one nuclear cruiser or three frigates?

ZAK "Palash" on the boat P-60


But it is possible that the cruiser will receive six installations "Pantsir-M". But the AK-130 two-gun installation is likely to remain in its original form, unless it adds a more modern SLA for it. However, this is normal - the artillery system is very powerful and quick-fire.

As for the torpedo weapons, again, one can only guess. Prior to modernization, Admiral Nakhimov had two five-tube 533-mm torpedo tubes PTA-53, which allowed using not only torpedoes of the appropriate caliber, but also the Waterplant PLUR, and the total ammunition of torpedoes and PLUR was 20 units. It is difficult to imagine that today, given the appearance of new and very advanced 533-mm torpedoes, someone will risk dismantling these vehicles, and why?

True, powerful torpedo armament was not accompanied by an equally powerful anti-torpedo arsenal, and this could be considered one of the flaws of the ship. In fact, as an anti-torpedo weapons it was possible to use only RBU-12000 bombers (one) and RBU-1000 (2 units), but false targets, simulators, if such could be taken instead of part of the ammunition load of 533-mm vehicles. Today at the disposal of the Russian Navy there is a very good “Package-NK” which, of course, “asks” for TARKR, because the latter, of course, is a tasty target for enemy submarines. But it would be extremely strange to replace 533-mm devices with the “Package-NK”, where it would be more logical to sacrifice bombers. And although it is more than likely that our anti-torpedo complex will surpass three RBUs ​​with ammunition and equipment in their mass, such an overload will hardly be at least noticeable for a ship in almost 25 000 t displacement. The same applies to the place to place it.

Thus, we can more or less reasonably assume that the weapons of the modernized TARKR "Admiral Nakhimov" will be:

80 cells UKKS for missiles of the family "Caliber", "Onyx", or "Zircon";

92 cells Fort-M SAMS C-300FM;

100 or more cells of the Polymer-Redut air defense missile system;

6 ZAC "Palace";

1 * 2 130-mm AK-130 gun mount;

2 * 5 533-mm torpedo tubes, ammunition - 20 torpedoes and Waterplant "Waterfall";

2 * 4 or, possibly, 2 * 6 324-mm torpedo tubes Package-NK;

3 helicopter.

And now let's compare all this splendor with the armament of three frigates of the 22350 project.

Impact potential


Here the three "Gorshkovy" obviously loses, and - loses "with a bang." Each frigate has a total of 16 cells for missiles, just three of their frigates get 48. But the problem is not even in the fact that 80 cruise missiles from TARKR are noticeably larger than the 48 such missiles from frigates, but in the absence of 22350-mm torpedo tubes on ships of the 533 project.

In fact, all the standard anti-submarine armament of these ships (not counting helicopters) is only 2 * 4 324-mm “Package-NK”. This is a good anti-torpedo device, but for its anti-submarine it’s too “short arm” - the MTT anti-submarine torpedo has the maximum range of 20 km only when the speed drops to 30 knots. According to these parameters, a small torpedo will never, of course, be able to compete with "big" 533-mm "colleagues" - the same Mk.48 had a range of 38 km at speed in 55 nodes as far back as 80-s of the last century. In addition, the package-NK torpedoes are not universal; another M-15 is used to defeat enemy torpedoes. Thus, the anti-submarine potential of the Pack-NK is not only insufficient, it also reduces the anti-torpedo protection of our frigates, because MTT can only be taken to replace the M-15 part.

All this speaks of the need to place something more anti-submarine-long-range on frigates of the 22350 project, and there is such an opportunity: as you know, the Caliber family of cruise missiles incorporates PLUR 91Р / РТ. But, again, only due to the "spending" of the UCSS cells, since these PLUR can only be taken instead of other types of cruise missiles. And so it turns out that long-range anti-ship (or against ground targets) and anti-submarine weapons on the modernized TARKR "Admiral Nakhimov" are represented by ammunition in 100 units, including 80 missiles or PLUR in UBCS and 20 torpedoes or PLUR in 533-mm torpedo tubes , and the three "Gorshkovykh" for everything about everything - 48 cells of the UKKS.

In other words, in terms of its shock capabilities, the three of the 22350 frigates of the project are approximately twice as losing to the TARKR.

Air defense


Here, the lag of the three frigates of the 22350 project is, perhaps, even more fatal than in the case of the shock potential, although perhaps it is not so obvious at first glance. To begin with - let's try to understand the capabilities of the "Fort" and "Polyment-Redut" complexes.

According to the data available to the author, the situation with the “Fort” is as follows: initially the complex was a naval equivalent of C-300P, and was armed with 5В55РМ missiles, that is, a naval analogue of 5ВХNUMXР. In this version, the Fort was mounted on 55 missile cruisers and the first two atomic cruisers, the range of 1164B5РМ missiles reached 55 km. At the same time, it is very similar to the fact that such a range was not the limit for a rocket, but was limited to the means of its guidance. And later, when the capabilities of the MSA were “pulled up”, the range of the “Fort” air defense system with 75ВХNUMXРМ missiles on all of the above ships reached 5 km.

However, for the "Admiral Nakhimov" complex was upgraded - the launch air defense systems "learned" to take the 48H6 SAM, which has a firing range of up to 150 km. However, the creation of an adequate fire control system again fell behind, and TARKR received the same OMS as on other ships, that is, its firing range continued to be limited to 93 km. Apparently, it was in this condition that the modernization “caught” him.

But with the extreme cruiser of the series, "Peter the Great", everything is somehow unclear. The ship received an 2 air defense missile system, one of which is exactly the same "Fort", as well as those that were installed on the "Admiral Nakhimov", carrying 48 SAM 48Н6. The second “Fort-M” air defense missile system received even more “long arm”, 46 48Н6Е2 missiles with a target range of up to 200 km. But before the fire control, there are still ambiguities. The fact is that in the photographs of Peter the Great two different fire control stations are clearly visible, one of which is the classic ZR41 “Wave”



But the second is clearly its more advanced version.



Thus, it cannot be excluded that the maximum range in 150-200 km for the 48H6 and 48Н6Х2 SAMs can only be provided by one fire control station installed on the ship’s superstructure, and the stern has a range of no more than 93 km. On the other hand, it is quite possible that the stern is still refined to the possibility of using 48H6 missiles at their maximum range, that is, 150 km.

So if, according to the available data, the Admiral Nakhimov gets the X-NUMX air defense system Fort-M, they will be able to use the 2H92-48 XUR with a range of up to 6 km to 2.

And what about Polyment Redut? According to the official website of its manufacturer, the Almaz-Antey concern, to date, the ammunition of this air defense system includes three missiles. This is a short-range rocket 9М100, which is capable of hitting air targets at a distance of no more than 15 km, a medium-range rocket 9М96 (up to 120 km) and its improved version 9М96Д, which has an 150 km range. Thus, it seems that the Redut missiles are not too inferior in their capabilities to the Fort-M air defense system and at the same time they are much more compact. So, perhaps, it would be worthwhile to dismantle the Fort-M monstrous launchers and replace them with a large number of Polymer-Redut launchers? Moreover, it has long been announced about the development of a “long arm” for the newest air defense system - missiles with a range of up to 400 km, with the help of which the capabilities of Polyment-Redut should radically exceed the already outdated Fort-M air defense system.

Perhaps some of the esteemed readers may have a feeling that the author measures the effectiveness of the air defense system solely in terms of the range of its missiles, but this, of course, is completely wrong. The author is well aware that small, medium and long range SAMs have their own tasks and roles in providing air defense of a ship or unit. There is no point in trying to bring down the Harpoon anti-ship missiles that appeared over the horizon from 25 km using ZUR designed to work at a distance of 400 km, which, by the way, is much heavier than the Harpoon. In addition, the ammunition of the Poliment-Redut air defense system successfully combines various capable missiles at the target - medium-range missiles have an active radar seeker and a low-range infrared seeker. And if you still remember that instead of one medium-range missile, you can “ram up” as many as four short-range missiles into the standard cell of the Redut complex? And this is not the whole list of advantages of mixed ammunition.

Nevertheless, ultra-long-range missiles are an extremely important means of air defense of individual ships and formations. The fact is that in the attack of modern aviation "conductors" play an extremely important role, that is, control aircraft that control the battlefield and ensure the deployment and attack of aircraft in accordance with the data they receive. For American carrier-based aviation, this is the role of AWACS aircraft - a powerful radar gives them excellent situational awareness, and a large crew allows you to control other aircraft. It is the AWACS aircraft that are today the “brain” of modern carrier-based aviation.



However, they have their own technical limitations. In fact, DRLO deck aircraft do not work above 8 km, which gives them a theoretical radius of 400-450 km, but in practice such aircraft prefer to watch the enemy from a distance of no more than 250-300 km. The distance seems to be small, but to this day it was impossible to “get” them there with ship defense systems (except for the Kuznetsov TAVKR planes, of course, but, frankly, without the support of their own AWACS, they don't have much of a chance). And it is clear that the appearance of missiles with a range of 400 km will make it extremely difficult for enemy DRLO aircraft to work - now they will have to huddle at the radio horizon, briefly pop out to clarify the situation, and hide again, and all this greatly reduces their capabilities - but what else can you do if at the head of the enemy order is a cruiser with dozens of ultra-long-range missiles?

But back to the system "Poliment-Redut." The author came up with an 2 question for the “long arm” of this complex, and the first one is this: can the Polimer radar target the missiles at such ranges? After all, the air defense system was originally conceived for missiles with a firing range of no more than 120 km. Of course, it can be assumed that, in fact, these missiles represent only the first stage of the development of the complex, and the nomenclature of the missile defense system used by them was originally supposed to be expanded to ultra-long inclusive.

The second question is - in what way is it supposed to push the ultra-long-range Zour into the cells of the Redut system? As you know, for the C-400 complex, a relatively long-distance 40H6E SAM was recently created, capable of hitting targets at a distance of 400 km. But its length is 7,5 m, and the mass - 1,9 t! At the same time, the Polymer-Redut air defense missile system is much more modest - their length does not exceed 5,6 m (for 9М100, in general, 2,5 m), and the mass ranges from 140 to 600 kg. In other words, ultra-long-range missiles are much larger than those medium-range missiles that use Polimet-Redut, which, by the way, perfectly illustrates the photo below.



It, however, captured not the newest 40H6E, but the earlier 48H6Х2, but it has dimensions similar to 40H6 –– weight not less than 1,8 m and length the same 7,5 m.

So, the answer to the question was only two possible answers - either the size of the cells of the “Polyment” air defense system was adopted with a large margin, or the ultra-long-range missiles were supposed to be placed elsewhere. The first is extremely doubtful, because the Poliment-Redut air defense system was nevertheless positioned as a complex for ships of moderate displacement, like frigates, in which each ton of weight and a cubic meter of volume are extremely in demand and scarce. Thus, most likely, ultra-long-range missiles should be located elsewhere. And where? The answer to this question, apparently, is contained on the same official site of Almaz-Antey:

"For firing, Poliment-Redut anti-aircraft missiles use launchers (PU) of the universal ship complex 3С14 (UCSC), which are equipped in the Russian fleet with ships that carry Caliber cruise missiles and Onyx anti-ship missiles"
.

And this, generally speaking, is completely logical, because the dimensions of the “Caliber” family of missiles (up to 2,3 and up to 8,22 and length) are very similar to those of super-heavy missiles. So why make a garden with some kind of separate, giant cells? On the contrary, it turns out to be a very good unification - the UCSS under cruise missiles, the PLUR and heavy missiles, and smaller, suitable, by the way, for installing on ships of small displacement, the “Redut” launchers for short and medium range missiles.

So, we have said before that the 48H6Е2 SAM, included in the Fort-M air defense missile system, and the ultra-long 40Н6Е are almost identical in weight and size. Thus, in all likelihood, there will be no problems with the deployment of ultra-long-range missiles in drum launchers, which are stored on the Admiral Nakhimov.

And that's what happens. Each frigate of the 22350 project has 32 cells of the “Polyment-Redut” complex, respectively, there will be 96 on three such frigates. Apparently, the same, or even more cells of this complex will be on the same modernized TARKR “Admiral Nakhimov”. But, in addition to this, the “Nakhimov” will also have 92 cells to accommodate super-heavy “long arm” missiles, which can “reach out” to the enemy at a distance of 400 km. A certain number of such missiles, however, can be placed on the “Gorshkovs” by placing them in the UCSS, but ... again, only by weakening the impact potential.

In other words, the Admiral Nakhimov TARKR can carry cruise missiles (including anti-ships) to 80, and in addition to 92 heavy missiles, and to 20 PLUR in torpedo tubes, and in total, 192 heavy missiles of various purposes. And three frigates of the type “Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union, Admiral Gorshkov”, although, in principle, can carry the same nomenclature of the Kyrgyz Republic, heavy SAM and PLUR, but their ammunition is limited to only 48 units.

Thus, according to this indicator, one upgraded TARKR “Admiral Nakhimov” quadrupled (!!!) three frigates of the 22350 project.

For other air defense systems, the Admiral Nakhimov and the trinity of our frigates have an approximate balance - we already said about the starting cells of the Poliment-Redut air defense system, as we did, Zach (or ZRAK?) On the Nakhimov three frigates (two per frigate), and the superiority of one 130-mm barrel is difficult to recognize decisive.

It would also be interesting to analyze the capabilities of the updated TARKR via the Zuru channel. As you know, the 22350 frigates are equipped with four phased arrays, each of which controls the 90 hail. sector, which results in coverage of the entire horizon. Each of these arrays is capable of directing 8 missiles at 4 aerial targets, and this is, I must say, a non-amazing indicator. Just because, in theory, of course, the Admiral Gorshkov type frigate is capable of attacking 16 air targets simultaneously, but only if they attack it from all four directions of the world. Thus, three pot-type frigates will be able to fire 12 air targets attacking from one direction, or 24 from two, or 48 from four.

Now look at the TARKR. He obviously will have exactly the same "Polymen" that is on each of the frigates, which will give him exactly the same opportunities as one frigate of the 22350 project. However, besides this, the Admiral Nakhimov will have two more radar stations of the OMS of the Fort-M complex.

This complex is far from new, but each such station was previously capable of providing simultaneous 6 attacks of 12 targets with missiles (two missiles per target). Thus, we can say that one TARKR “Admiral Nakhimov” will be able to simultaneously fire 16 air targets attacking from one direction, 20 from two, and 28 from four. In other words, we see that the ability to repel an attack from one direction in TARKR is higher than that of three frigates, but in the case when the raids are carried out from several directions, the effectiveness of TARKR decreases and becomes worse. True, it is worth considering a few more important nuances. First, it is easier and more reliable to distribute targets between the fire weapons of a single ship than with three. And it's not only and not so much in the capabilities of computers, they have long been capable of much more, but simply in data lines. Indeed, in battle, it is necessary to exchange data online, at a time when the enemy uses all the power of his electronic warfare equipment.

The second nuance is that the Fort-M, in the form in which it is installed on Peter the Great, was developed in the 90-ies, and since then two decades have passed. It is likely that the Admiral Nakhimov will have modernized radar stations of the SLA capable of firing more targets than was possible before, and thus the lag behind the three 22350 frigates we have fixed will be reduced or eliminated altogether.

The third nuance - let us remember that the last American Ticonderoga type missile cruiser entered the US Navy in the distant 1994, and ships of this type are no longer on the cutting edge of scientific and technical progress. The newest destroyers "Arly Burke", the construction of which is still ongoing, have a much more sophisticated electronic "stuffing". But, oddly enough, the American admirals still prefer to have at least one missile cruiser as part of the AUG, because, in their opinion, it is more suited to perform the tasks of an anti-aircraft command and control ship than any destroyer. The cruiser is tritely bigger, it has additional rooms, better communication capabilities, etc. As for our TARKR, for them the role of the leader of the compound was assigned initially and the existing modernization will probably only improve the existing opportunities. In any case, to organize the work of any staff, coordinating center, etc. on a ship with a displacement of more than 24, the 000 is noticeably simpler than on a frigate with a displacement of 4 and 500.

Anti-submarine capabilities


Those of the three frigates of the 22350 project are higher than those of a single nuclear cruiser, but not as much as it might seem at first glance. The main advantage of the three frigates, of course, is that they, unlike TARKR, can be in three different places at the same time. At the same time, TARKR, apparently, has a more powerful sonar complex, and its air group - Ka-3 helicopter 27 - corresponds to that of frigates, each of which carries only one such helicopter. As for the ammunition, the number of 324-mm torpedoes on three frigates will probably be more than on one TARKR, but this advantage is largely leveled by the capabilities of the Admiral Nakhimov to carry powerful and long-range 533-mm torpedoes.

So, having briefly reviewed the capabilities of the upgraded TARKR and its equivalent frigates, we conclude that the capabilities of the TARKR are losing in some ways, in some ways they are not inferior, and in something they are significantly superior to those of the three 22350 project ships. In the next article, we will compare the capabilities of the Admiral Nakhimov with the Yasen multi-purpose submarine, as they are quite comparable in price, and at the same time we will try to figure out whether there are some tasks of our military fleet with which the upgraded TARKR will be able to cope better with frigates or MAPL. Or maybe there are such tasks that no one else can cope with except for TARKR? And after that, it will be possible to try to evaluate the plans for the construction of atomic destroyers (most likely heavy cruisers) of the Leader project.

To be continued ...
157 comments
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  1. +3
    11 May 2019 04: 54
    To the deep regret of the author, it seems that the pessimists were right this time - recently there was news that our oldest TARKRs, Admiral Ushakov and Admiral Lazarev, would nevertheless be disposed of, and even the amounts provided to eliminate them.

    To modernize two TARKs at once, we have neither money nor human resources nor shipyards. Therefore, Lazarev was doomed at the moment when they began to delay the delivery of Nakhimov to the fleet. Do we need these ships? Now we really need them. We have very few ships in the ocean zone and they are all without exception Soviet-built. Realities and technologies are changing and accordingly the requirements for such platforms, and simply arsenal ships, are changing. The dream of optimists is the destroyer Leader, which is very close to the cruiser in terms of displacement, but in terms of declared firepower, it generally surpasses it. But, for now, if you really look at things, we have only one prospect of building ships of the first rank - this is Super-Gorshkov, who is called a frigate, but in fact it is a destroyer. There are few declared 12 pieces for 4 fleets of such ships. At least 20- 25 boards, to about the same number as the frigate Gorshkov. Unfortunately, all this is still dreams and plans. As it will be in fact, you need to look at the tab of these ships.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +14
      11 May 2019 08: 34
      Quote: NEXUS
      To upgrade two TARKs at once, we have no money

      why are you with your propaganda and a spell about money! Who told you this nonsense? .... money like manure! The budget has been laid down for 3 years at the rate of 40 bucks per barrel ..... and you repeat all your mantra !! wink
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. +2
          11 May 2019 11: 35
          Quote: NEXUS
          And if this makes you angry, then write to the Kremlin a complaint to the president about your discontent.

          I am not angry at all, I know for sure that money in the country is like candy wrappers from a kid ...... it is not for nothing that gold is bought at a frantic pace! "!
          Quote: NEXUS
          And for example, in 2016 this indicator was 3,7%, ... and here is what kind of budget was for example in 2014 ...

          ah budget .... do you know all his articles? no, then why this empty talk?
          Quote: NEXUS
          Yes? And where is the difference?

          Do you really think that someone from the government or the president will actually report to you? ... Do not tell me
      2. 0
        11 May 2019 13: 26
        Quote: Tiksi-3
        money like manure!

        Where is it? let's share.
        1. +5
          11 May 2019 14: 14
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          Where is it? let's share.

          this question is to the Minister of Finance of the Russian Federation ..... since 2016, the budget has been laid down at the rate of 40 bucks per barrel ..... not a single month has this price been .... but 58-77 all the time ..... the question is, where is the egg and why is the government whining? !!
          1. +5
            11 May 2019 16: 12
            Quote: Tiksi-3
            This question to the Minister of Finance of the Russian Federation.

            So he does not approach me, such a bastard .. And then I would have him ...
            1. 0
              12 May 2019 10: 24
              So he does not approach me, such a bastard .. And then I would have him ...

              He has a Facebook profile. There, even a set of leads to his ministry. Can chat smile
  2. kig
    +2
    11 May 2019 05: 55
    Quote: NEXUS
    You need at least 20-25 sides,

    So you yourself answered the question, which is more useful. The modernization of the cruiser from the nuclear power plant will gobble up not just five, but two and a half destroyers for sure. And the construction of a new one and a whole squadron.
    1. +5
      11 May 2019 06: 40
      Are we going to lay down destroyers of the Leader type right now? As far as I know, the project itself has not even reached the preliminary stage and exists only in the form of a beautiful model. At least ten years will pass before the beginning of its incarnation, if it happens at all.
      1. +2
        11 May 2019 08: 48
        for some reason it seems to me that the leader’s project is a death
        1. 0
          13 May 2019 02: 49
          Until the marine S-500 appears, no one Leader will begin to build.
          Without this complex, the Leader will not fulfill the tasks for the sake of which they are created.
          Everything is just like a corner of the house. hi
          1. +1
            13 May 2019 14: 41
            The leader will not be built for other reasons:
            1. There is no political will. It is more interesting to build super plants for liquefaction of gas and supertankers, and superports for them, everything for operation in the Arctic Circle (these projects "stick more" even after construction).
            2. There is neither a nuclear power plant, nor a power plant, nor (God forbid) even a power plant for these ships, specialists, and capacities for the design and production of power plants of the required capacity.
            3. Everything else (the lack of completeness of weapons systems, most importantly, BIUS, radar, etc.) - it's just "the icing on the cake."
  3. sen
    +4
    11 May 2019 06: 34
    What to argue? The larger the ship, the more heavy weapons and equipment can be put on it. For example, S-500.
    1. +1
      11 May 2019 08: 37
      Quote: sen
      For example, S-500.

      belay cram what is not ?? .... then the tank also has Armata in a quantity of 20 pcs !!!
  4. +6
    11 May 2019 06: 35
    Here, first you need to decide what these cruisers will do. If you fight with US Navy, then it's only about how to bravely die. If you demonstrate the flag, then the cruiser is clearly more impressive. Well, in a low-intensity conflict with someone out there not so terrible, a cruiser can become a command post and air defense support.
  5. +3
    11 May 2019 06: 36
    Thanks to the author for the informative and informative article.
  6. +4
    11 May 2019 06: 37
    Brilliant analysis, respect to the author.
    It is a pity that the current leaders of the Navy are thinking in a different direction.
  7. +1
    11 May 2019 07: 01

    "For firing, Poliment-Redut anti-aircraft missiles use launchers (PU) of the universal ship complex 3С14 (UCSC), which are equipped in the Russian fleet with ships that carry Caliber cruise missiles and Onyx anti-ship missiles"

    Am I missing something in this life?
    1. +3
      11 May 2019 08: 07
      Yes, they did. smile
      Our discussion with Andrei about this information in the topic https://topwar.ru/157708-vmf-rf-poluchit-12-modernizirovannyh-fregatov-proekta-22350m.html (in the second half of the discussion)
      On the Almaz-Antey website on the press service page there is a digest of various articles from the media on topics related to the enterprise in one way or another http://www.almaz-antey.ru/press-sluzhba/publikatsii-smi/

      In particular, this article from the RT website with an interview taken from an outsider is given here.
      https://russian.rt.com/russia/article/601707-poliment-redut-ispytaniya-vmf

      On the press service page, it is located at http://www.almaz-antey.ru/press-sluzhba/publikatsii-smi/na-chto-sposoben-noveyshiy-korabelnyy-kompleks-pvo-poliment-redut/

      Andrei believes that the mere fact that a reprint of this article appeared on the Almaz Antey website confirms the correctness of everything stated, and also that Almaz-Antey itself is the primary source of this information. I did not find his arguments convincing, but I did not argue. hi
      1. +1
        11 May 2019 08: 13
        Duck, I don’t argue. Just using UKKS to deploy and launch missiles for me is news.
        1. +2
          11 May 2019 08: 15
          yes, understandably, life will show, if there is one, it will come up one way or another.
          Theoretically, this is quite possible, but in practice we will see.
        2. 0
          11 May 2019 08: 34
          It’s just strange if it was done, then this is a huge success of Almaz-Antey, and it is not clear why it should be hidden, it cannot be any secret, you need to be proud of it — a new plus in export potential.
          1. +4
            11 May 2019 11: 05
            Quote: Avior
            It's just weird, if it was done, then it is a huge success. Almaz-Anthea

            Most likely they haven't done it yet. According to some data (unreliable) it turns out that with modern missiles the UKSK cannot work from the word "in general", since its developer did not even think about such an application. So, the alteration of 40N6 is possible and necessary in order to make friends with the missile shaft :)
            1. +2
              11 May 2019 11: 59
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              So alteration 40N6 is possible and necessary in order to make friends with a rocket mine :)

              Maybe then it is better to make friends "Caliber" and TPK "FortFM"? See how well it can turn out - to increase the length of the TPK by 0,5-0,8 m and make a universal PU out of it. Refusal of drums will allow to increase the number of placed TPKs by 1,5 - 2 times, 4 TPKs with 9M96 missiles can be inserted into the socket of TPK "Fort", well, "oversized" in the form of "Onyx" and "Zircon" UKSK in place of PU "Granite ".
              1. 0
                11 May 2019 13: 03
                By the way, in the case of 40N6 TPK, it will do without modification. True, the number will increase not 1,5 - 2 grooves but in 1,2-1.5 (probably)
            2. -1
              13 May 2019 02: 56
              There is information that 9M96 can already be fired from UKKS. From a special container. How many of them are in this container - not yet said.
              And in range 9M96 - according to various sources from 40 to 70 km. 120 km, as you have written - this is the range of the export long-range missile. hi
              Z.Y. I read the link to Almaz-Antey - it is clear where the figure of 120 km came from, but it's not about 9M96. Or a typo or misinformation.
              1. 0
                13 May 2019 07: 58
                Quote: Alex777
                And by distance 9М96 - according to different sources from 40 to 70 km. 120 km, as you have written - is the distance of the export long-range missiles.

                Generally speaking, for our rocket already 150 km - 9m96D
              2. 0
                13 May 2019 14: 45
                Don't be confused with fundamental issues. To "stuff" 9M96 into the UKSK (taking into account the "monstrous" dimensions of this UKSK) is "everyday affairs". But to provide target designation and guidance for these missiles, given their over-the-horizon range, is a problem. How many Polyment-Redut have been "brought to mind"? And it’s not a fact that they did it.
        3. -1
          12 May 2019 23: 08
          It is not planned. The launch unification - hot and mortar from any cell - should be at UKSK-M, and the current UKSK does not have such unification.
          1. 0
            13 May 2019 14: 47
            It is not possible to unify hot and mortar launches from the same launcher due to design features. Or the unified launcher will be so large and expensive that it will only fit on the TARKr. It is in the launch that the fundamental difference between ALL of our VPUs and the American MK-41 and its derivatives is in place.
            1. 0
              22 May 2019 22: 56
              I did not come up with a start-up standardization, it’s journalists on the Internet who write. I admit, of course, that they always misinterpret the words of designers, but nonetheless.
              1. 0
                23 May 2019 10: 15
                Journalists (and EVERYTHING, I have not yet seen another version) write that the Superjet got into a thunderstorm, received lightning, "lost contact", after which "he informed the departure airport of his return and, on the instructions of the dispatcher, went in for landing." So he lost contact or reported returning? A good friend of mine has been working in this field for a long time. She does not have the word "journalists", only "jokes" and "prostzhury". Facts that contradict each other have long coexisted in the reports of even Channel 1 and RTR. Those who write about launch unification hardly have any idea how a "cold" start differs from a "hot" one.
  8. -7
    11 May 2019 07: 26
    That the author was so excited that they will build 10 boats instead of all this and the end is ....
  9. 0
    11 May 2019 07: 53
    But our leaders count the money. True in your pocket.
  10. +3
    11 May 2019 08: 22
    Airplanes can change the radio horizon line to contact the ship very easily and at least every few minutes.
    A ship for him is a slow and conspicuous target located in open space, it does not need to be constantly monitored.
    The rocket even for 300 km after launching flies minutes, and the aircraft has every chance under this radio horizon line to get out of the AHDR rocket action zone, therefore, in my opinion, the real significance of ultra-long-range missiles for shipboard air defense should be assessed carefully.
    1. +2
      11 May 2019 09: 48
      In order to hide from a rocket, the plane must fly faster than it.
      1. -2
        11 May 2019 13: 01
        If a missile is launched from a distance of 300 km, then it will fly to an airplane at an average rocket speed of about 2 M (600 m / s) for up to 8-10 minutes (300 / 0,6 = 500 sec, that is, 8,3 minutes). During this time, the plane (carrier-based AWS Hokai) with a decrease below the radio horizon at a speed of 600 km / h (i.e. 10 km per minute) will leave the missile’s aiming point for 80-100 kilometers, no AGSN will even see it close, they have a range capture is 3-6 times less, even if you do not take into account the initial aiming error.
        The fighter, Groler, for example, will go even further.
        Even if they don’t leave right away, or if the rocket flies faster (which is unlikely to be at such a distance), two or three minutes of handicap are enough for the plane to leave the dangerous sector, unless the pilots themselves click through.
        Therefore, the importance of long-range missiles for ship's air defense should not be exaggerated and cultivated laughing It’s necessary, but not a child prodigy
        1. +9
          11 May 2019 17: 14
          Quote: Avior
          If you launch a missile from a distance of 300 km, then it will fly to the aircraft at an average rocket speed of about 2М (600 m / s) minutes to 8-10.

          Only here is the average speed of missiles much higher - at least two times
          Quote: Avior
          During this time, the aircraft (deck DRLO Hokai) with a decrease below the radio horizon at a speed of 600 km / hour (that is, 10 km per minute) will move away from the rocket's aiming point kilometers on 80-100

          It will not go away, you have something really bad with physics. Zur shoots not at the plane, but takes the lead, Hockey will have to move away from the lead point, laying a maneuver, at which he, of course, will lose sharply in speed. That is, Hawkeye, of course, will record the launch of the rocket, if his radar is turned on (and this is not a fact), then the time to make a decision, then the maneuver, and the turnaround at a speed of 600 km per hour is not included in the advantages of Hokaya :))) ) And all the time while Hokai is within sight of the radar, the rocket will be adjusted to the Hokai maneuver.
          So there will be no 80-100 km there in principle - approximately four times less.
          1. +3
            11 May 2019 23: 20
            Andrei, I like the way you write, and the articles you have in most cases are well developed, but in this case, in my opinion, you are not quite right.
            Yes, you are completely correct that the speed of the "long-range missile" is twice as high as I wrote.
            That is, taking into account the fact that the rocket does not fly in a straight line, including in height, it will fly for at least 4,5 - 5 minutes, which does not fundamentally change the question.
            In addition, several factors must be taken into account.
            Firstly, all the same it is necessary to proceed from the fact that the parties will act rationally, proceeding from the capabilities of their technology, essno.
            The ceiling of the modern version of Hokai 10600, the radio horizon will be more than 410 km, he will determine such a large and prominent target as a large NK at the distance of the radio horizon, he does not need to fly closer and rise above the radio horizon, it takes several hundred meters to go, it’s a matter of seconds, maximum ten seconds, and he will disappear from the horizon. He also has no need to observe the ship for more than a few seconds (a dozen or two maximum if you still need to determine the speed and course of the ship (which he can change, so it is not clear why this is necessary). The ship for the aircraft is too slow target, at a maximum speed of 1 km in minute, so in 10-30 minutes the ship, in principle, will not go far enough, further 10-30 km from the place).
            You absolutely correctly write that Hokai really holds a range of three hundred kilometers, but you need to understand that they simply choose a minimally safe range - no one has rockets under 400 km at sea so far. Missiles will appear, the range will increase, technically it is quite possible.
            Hokai, of course, will record a missile launch if its radar is turned on (and this is not a fact)

            no, this is not a fact. this is more than fact, the way it actually was (c) smile

            sorry, could not resist, remembered a wonderful movie smile
            If even the Hokai radar is turned off for some reason (I can’t imagine why, by the way) next to such a ship as 1144 after modernization, which there will be two in the world, then, as you probably know, Hokai, like other AWACS , it is equipped with an RTR station and is able to determine not only what the missile launch is - even preparation for launch (for which Polyment should take it to escort before launch, which will even determine the STR, not like the RTR of a specialized aircraft), so it can start to go down before start-up, a decision on this can be made in advance (yes and the decision to launch at a long-range air defense system is not taken automatically, as for the approaching RCC, which threatens the ship, the time it takes to make a decision).
            The speed in the patrol mode of the aircraft is low, so after leaving the horizon, you will not need to change course much time, it's not a huge airliner (but also not a fighter, of course) and then Hokai will continue to decline in a new course, quickly gaining speed . And keep in mind that usually air defense systems when developing a decision to open fire take into account not only the range, but also the target parameter, therefore, as a rule, they do not shoot at the maximum range. In addition, a preemptive shot will lead missiles even further from the actual position of the aircraft.
            In fact, you intend to shoot at a target without using a radio command course correction over a long range of 300-400 km, but no air defense systems are currently firing.
            Using the radio command correction, the targets are brought to the area as accurately as possible, since the capabilities of the AGSN are relatively small both in range and in angle, and its task is to accurately guide the maximum for the last 20 seconds, or even much less, but not in 4 minutes. It is also necessary to take into account the electronic warfare of the aircraft, because beyond the horizon a rocket from a ship can not be helped.
            There is also the likelihood that there will be some kind of vessel in that area, the distance is still 400 km, and that it’s floating in the distance, you won’t be able to determine from the ship, but they will know perfectly well what is in the area and hide behind someone some random, some neutrals, do not hesitate, and the AGSN in this autonomous mode may well visit her.
            No, of course, there is a theoretical possibility that the head will be taken over by the Americans or the Americans will do it; it’s quite possible for them, but to build a fight on this is not very correct, since the probability of defeat under these conditions will be very low.
            And, I note, in this situation it does not matter whose plane and whose rocket it is, not because I am touting Hokai and scolding a rocket, the same American Tiki or Burke, if they suddenly take to shoot at the aircraft at such a range, they will be in exactly the same position in relation to A-50M or A-100. A fighter at such a range, if it detects a missile launch (or preparation for launch by radar radiation), will leave without any big problems.
            Actually, you can get to such a range by plane only if for some reason a missile launch was not found on the plane, although the STR should be sung by a nightingale and glowing with a Christmas tree.
            But it is impossible, however, to say that this is unrealistic, I remember, somehow the Syrians shot down an Israeli plane at a fairly long range precisely because of the pilots' mistake.
            The question arises - so, "fat rocket" is not needed at all?
            Of course, we need, really need, an excellent rocket, only if used correctly.
            I’m sure that it will probably realize the possibility of guidance according to external data (or has already been implemented), so that the course correction commands can be formed according to external sources, for example from the same A-50m or Su-35, and then the potential of the rocket will be fully revealed .
            Only now in the marine version it is noticeably more difficult to implement than in the land - there is no domestic ship-based AWACS.
            Therefore, I wrote that for ship-borne air defense systems, the effectiveness of an ultra-long-range missile in the current conditions should be evaluated carefully hi
            1. +2
              12 May 2019 21: 18
              Quote: Avior
              That is, given the fact that the rocket does not fly in a straight line, including the height, it will fly no less than 4,5 - 5 minutes,

              Sergey, we have a rocket flying at an average speed of 4М per hour - roughly take 4 000 km / hour. Suppose Hokai is at an altitude of 8 km above the launch point of the rocket (this is the maximum for it) and we shoot at the 300 km range in a straight line. Total from the legs / legs / hyoptenus we get the range of the 300,1 km rocket, which the rocket will overcome in 4,5 min.
              Quote: Avior
              Even if the Hokaya radar is turned off for some reason (I can not imagine why, by the way)

              Then, that - you will laugh! - Hokai's radar, all other things being equal, is a supplementary intelligence tool, not an intelligence unit, that is, the target is first detected by means of passive radio intelligence, and the radar is cut at the last moment so as not to disturb the target in advance :))))
              With the ships - the same thing, they try to walk in radio silence and only listen. It turns out that if I passively spotted the Hokai at a distance of 350 km, and I don’t feel its radar, then who knows if he spotted me or not? And am I unmasking myself ahead of time by starting active actions?
              Quote: Avior
              The ceiling of the modern version of the Hokaya 10600, the radio horizon will be more than 410 km, it will determine such a large and noticeable target as a large NK at the radio horizon range, it has no need to fly closer

              And yet - there is. Hokai will need to manage the battle, and for this you need to see the enemy order well even when the missiles fly and the EW works, that is, at the limit of the range he can go blind, which is unacceptable.
              Quote: Avior
              Hokai, like other early warning crews, is equipped with an RTR station and is able to determine not only the launch of a rocket - even preparation for launch (for which Polymer must take it to escort before launching

              This is true :))) But the question is that Poliment, at least in theory, can not do that. The initial control center can be given according to the data of infrared observation and passive means of radio intelligence (not always, but sometimes), and only then you yourself wrote that the rocket flies 4,5 minutes, there it is already possible to turn on the radar and correct the flight. There are other nuances
              Quote: Avior
              I am sure that it probably realizes the possibility of targeting by external data (or has already been implemented), so that the commands for the radio correction of the course can be formed according to an external source

              There is such a :))))
              I absolutely agree with you that the long-range missiles are not vundervaffe, and that it can be fought in various ways. But it really seriously complicates the work of the ARL patrols. So ... I think we have nothing to argue about, because our points of view here completely coincide.
              1. 0
                12 May 2019 23: 25
                Sergey, we have a rocket flying at an average speed of 4M per hour - roughly 4 km / h.


                Do not be so rude to take.
                48N6DM flies at speeds up to 2500m / s, which is 9000km / h or 150km / min.
                40H6 flies faster than nine flights, it is faster than 3000m / s, that is faster than 11100km / h or 185km / min.

                That is, 58N6DM will fly this distance in two minutes (in fact, no, the range is not enough) and 40N6 is even faster.

                Hokai will need to control the battle, and for this it is necessary to clearly see the enemy warrant even when the rockets fly in full swing and the electronic warheads operate, that is, at the limit of range, it can go blind, and this is unacceptable.


                In fact this is not true. And our "Granites" / "Volcanoes" / "Calibers" and the American promising LRASMs are designed to find the target themselves after launching "somewhere there", and the AWACS aircraft / helicopter does not need to "guide" the target all this time.
                1. +1
                  13 May 2019 08: 02
                  Quote: Aglan
                  Do not be so rude to take.
                  48H6DM flies at speeds up to 2500m / s

                  You have an error in the calculations. 2500 m / s - this is not the average speed, but the maximum. The fact is that the ZUR engine works for a relatively short time, and far from the entire flight leg, the remainder of the rocket flies, consuming kinetic energy.
                  Quote: Aglan
                  In fact this is not true. And our "Granites" / "Volcanoes" / "Calibers" and the American perspective LRASM are designed to find the target themselves

                  in fact, you just can’t imagine the tactics of attacking a ship order with deck aircraft
                  1. 0
                    22 May 2019 23: 02
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    You have an error in the calculations. 2500 m / s - this is not the average speed, but the maximum. The fact is that the ZUR engine works for a relatively short time, and far from the entire flight leg, the remainder of the rocket flies, consuming kinetic energy.

                    The argument is accepted.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    in fact, you just can’t imagine the tactics of attacking a ship order with deck aircraft

                    And this one is not accepted.
                    Instead of throwing these words you should explain your point of view deployed.
                    1. 0
                      23 May 2019 19: 33
                      Quote: Aglan
                      Instead of throwing these words you should explain your point of view deployed.

                      Yes, you know, it can not be described in a few words. But in short, when attacking a warrant, no one relies on the same GOS.
                      The correct attack of the order looks like this - first there is a demonstration group that shows itself and sits on the RCC - the ships are forced to cut in the fire control SLA. Once they have done this, the suppression and EW groups join in the battle, which crush the SLA with anti-radar missiles (PRR) and interfere. As soon as the effect is reached (a part of the OLS radar is destroyed, a part is suppressed by interference), shock groups emerge from under the radio horizon and produce the main salvo of the RPC and the RR.
                      And this I do not consider the parallel coordination of air combat, if the order is covered by enemy aircraft.
                      That is, the attack of the ship's order is not "flew to the line of attack and fired missiles" - this is a real "orchestra", only much more complicated, because each "musician" plays the part assigned to him not in a place pre-established by the composer, but exactly then, where and when needed, and the "musician" himself does not know for sure, but the "flying headquarters" shows him. And even a short-term loss of control can lead to an attack failure
          2. 0
            12 May 2019 00: 40
            You can also specify the position of the target after the maneuver from the Ka-31 helicopter and adjust the missile course by the team. In the future, this role will go to UAVs of various types.
            1. +2
              12 May 2019 09: 28
              no, with the Ka-31 in the best case, it is possible to conduct a general detection, it is impossible to control the missile, not the radar.
              Yes, and he can not constantly hang in the air.
          3. +4
            12 May 2019 02: 43
            There are a couple more points worth focusing on - firstly, Hokai "go down" by a couple of thousand meters, which means then and climb to the height of the radio horizon for several minutes. The rate of climb of the turboprop E-2C is far from being fighter, at takeoff 12 m / s (700 m / min), and much less at an altitude of 6-7 km.
            Going down, Hockey at 10-15 !!! minutes deprives the strike team of information awareness and control. With a relatively short range loaded with shock ammunition (the combat radius of the Super Hornet is only 600-700 km) - ten minutes of "blind" chatting in the air is a disaster in itself. Not only the disruption of the attack, but also the loss of ammunition (up to 8 tons, by the way), since the ship does not land with bombs and missiles.
            Secondly, after the launch, the missile launcher gains altitude much faster than the AWACS decreases, respectively, after the launch of the missile defense system, the radio horizon, behind which Hokai needs to hide, "runs away" from him much faster than his max. sink rate.
            I do not know if the passive radiation guidance mode is now implemented in long-range missiles, I admit that it is not yet, but "screwing" it to the active seeker will not pose a particular problem, especially since the radiation of the AWACS is powerful. It, of course, can be turned off, but then what is the use of AWACS?
            The total summary is the launch of a long-range missile, forcing the AWACS aircraft to hide behind the radio horizon, and even with a sharp decrease, momentarily, it is almost equivalent to destroying the AWACS. Disrupt the attack of the decks with just one rocket!
            It is wrong to say that the Hornets have enough of the central control from the AWACS on the order every 10-20 minutes. Even with a 20-knot course, the order ships shift for 10 km in 6 minutes.
            When the decks are attacked by a slide due to the radio horizon at low altitudes (i.e., at a range of about 25-35 km), the target shift of 6 km is already significant, at a distance of 30 km this is an additional search within 12 degrees. Moreover, the warrant will not passively wait for it to be shot as in a dash. EW to the maximum detection and aiming will complicate.
            Accordingly, the pilot of the deck takes time to detect, make a decision, aim, launch and leave. Seconds 20-30, or even more, by the minute. Down, you can’t hide behind the horizon anymore, only a turn. A cycle of firing of short-range air defense systems (of the same Shell) is 4-6 seconds. and rockets at a distance of 20 km fly only 20-25 seconds ...
            There is something for the deck pilot to think about.
            40N6, by the way, is still flying towards Hokai and can be, without any problems, redirected to someone who suddenly decided to lean out from behind the WG, to see what and how.
            In short - questions of application tactics. It is important who, when and what launches, who and how to respond ...
            1. +1
              12 May 2019 09: 26
              If we assume that the enemy acts rationally for himself, then your scenario is unlikely to be realized if they are not fools, especially with a ship like the upgraded 1144.
              Superhornet’s combat radius in strike mode is 720 km, but do not forget that it can also be a tanker, for which some of the aircraft will be allocated.
              Tankers took off, then shock, they escorted them, refueled and left for landing, then they similarly fly to meet for refueling returnees - the radius expands significantly and the problem of simultaneous take-off from an aircraft carrier is solved - takeoffs are simply extended in time for different groups.
              Hokayu "to leave with a descent" for a couple of thousand meters, then means to climb to the height of the radio horizon for several minutes. The rate of climb of the turboprop E-2C is far from being fighter, at takeoff 12 m / s (700 m / min), and at an altitude of 6-7 km it is much less.
              Having gone down, Hokai for 10-15 !!! minutes deprives the shock group of information awareness and management.

              Hokai will hang constantly in the region of the radio horizon level, from time to time rising for several seconds and determining the current position of the target and no one will shoot at it - no ammunition is enough, and it makes no sense.
              The Hornets will not attack from 25 km, this is unrealistic, why should they approach such a strong ship as 1144 at such a short distance?
              For example, the script would look like this.
              Hokai flashes above the horizon occasionally, determining the current position of the ship.
              At some point, a couple of growlers and a couple of superhornets will fly in, make a slide about 80 kilometers, launch a missile defense, and go below the horizon, and the growlers will scribble the radar — you want to turn them on to repel the attack.
              Then they will prepare a blow.
              According to the data from Hokai, at some point the ACG will reduce the distance to the required one, they will organize several groups for the strike, for example, from two directions to disorganize the ship’s electronic warfare (remember that Poliment only has 4 target channels for each radar panel.)
              In the first wave, from 80-100 km, the Hornets will launch Harpoons without rising above the radio horizon (for 100 km, the radio horizon at an altitude of about 400 m is enough to launch the Harpoons). Before launching Garpunov, Hokai will rise for a short time and do additional reconnaissance, and as soon as this data reaches the Hornets, they will launch, they don’t need to determine their target with their own radar (the ship will take a maximum of one to a couple of kilometers after launching before the start of GOS insignificantly), then it will simply go back two hundred meters down again and disappear from the screens and continue tracking the space above the NK, ready to rise at any moment.
              At the same time, they do not yet see attacks on the ship.
              At the estimated time, the second wave of the Khornets will make a slide at about the same distance and launch PRRs - in Iraq, the Americans fired them in batches, here God himself ordered not to be spared.
              At that moment, when the Harpoons at a distance of 30 kilometers appear above the horizon, they will be caught up by the PRR, at the same time, the Grolers will come out from the horizon and cover the electronic warfare from the right directions.
              Somehow this will be the minimum risk for carrier aircraft, and for Hokai.
              It is clear that 1144 Garpunov cannot be drowned in any salvo, but the defeat in general is probabilistic in nature, that something will pass, some radars or complexes will be damaged, and then they will continue to repeat as soon as they are ready, they will not try to deliver a decisive blow at a time .
              I didn’t write this script because I want to prove that the Americans are so super-duper, nothing like that, their boasted Burke will be in exactly the same difficult, or even hopeless position, attack in Russian coastal aviation - just in this situation, aviation in principle, it has a major advantage, it dictates its tactics, and nothing can be done about it if the air does not have its own AWAC or something similar.
              Secondly, after the launch, the missile launcher gains altitude much faster than the AWACS decreases, respectively, after the launch of the missile defense system, the radio horizon, behind which Hokai needs to hide, "runs away" from him much faster than his max. sink rate.

              only here the radius of action of the AGSN rocket is at least ten times less than the range to the target in this situation.
              It still needs to be brought to Hokai so that the AGSN captures the target, and if Hokai is not visible, then the radio course correction is impossible.
              For the effective use of an ultra-long missile, an air defense missile system needs to be provided with information that allows for radio correction of the missile course, even if the target itself is not visible from the ship.
              In short - questions of application tactics. It is important who, when and what launches, who and how to respond ...

              Totally agree with you.
              Again, the element of chance is reality, and the battle is always probabilistic - the probability of one outcome or another is always non-zero, and there may well be an unexpected result for opponents. Yes, and no one canceled the mistakes, the history of such knows a lot. hi
            2. -1
              12 May 2019 20: 55
              One of the requirements of the American sailors that led to the creation of the "super hornet" was the requirement to land on an aircraft carrier with unused ammunition. It was fulfilled. Considering the characteristics of the super hornet's airborne radar, additional search within 12 degrees is not a problem. In addition, when a KPUG is struck, which can really "snap back", it is unlikely that there will be only a "strike" group. Definitely, there will be more groups of distraction, suppression of air defense, additional reconnaissance, etc. Long-range missiles complicate the life of AWACS and EW aircraft, they are not a panacea. Example: the same S-200. The complex has been in service for several decades, the characteristics of the range, altitude, and speed of the missiles overlapped the early versions of the S-300, but they did not save Libya or Syria from air strikes.
          4. 0
            12 May 2019 20: 38
            It will definitely leave, unless its crew "sleeps". He absolutely does not need to lay any maneuvers, it is enough just to descend and go below the radio horizon of the ship - the carrier of the missile defense system. Example: firing a S-200 complex (SAM with outstanding range and speed characteristics) at an Israeli E-2.
        2. 0
          12 May 2019 10: 37
          If a missile is launched from a distance of 300 km, then it will fly to an airplane at an average rocket speed of about 2 M (600 m / s) for up to 8-10 minutes (300 / 0,6 = 500 sec, that is, 8,3 minutes). During this time, the plane (carrier-based AWS Hokai) with a decrease below the radio horizon at a speed of 600 km / h (i.e. 10 km per minute) will leave the missile’s aiming point for 80-100 kilometers, no AGSN will even see it close, they have a range capture is 3-6 times less, even if you do not take into account the initial aiming error.

          Does a rocket fly in the opposite direction from the plane? How will he leave if the rocket speed is higher? Or is a radio horizon such a specific place on a map like a brick wall behind which they hide? wassat
          1. -1
            12 May 2019 10: 43
            a missile can fly to the plane for several minutes, the handicap is sufficient, and in order for the missile from the AGSN to get into the plane, at the time the AGSN starts to operate, it must be as close to the aircraft as possible and aimed at it as accurately as possible.
            And for this, its course needs to be adjusted before meeting with the aircraft, for which the air defense radar of the SAM system should be observed by this aircraft.
            And it is the plane that decides how long it will be in the radio visibility zone of the ship's radar. It will go down a couple of hundred meters and disappear from the screen.
            somehow
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. -1
                12 May 2019 11: 59
                A few minutes to turn the plane in the opposite direction, if not a fighter of course.

                much faster. Hokai is not a fighter, but far from an airliner, it is not a very large plane.
                So it will be closer every second after launch, because her speed is higher.

                correctly. but the range at which it will capture the target with a high probability is actually 20-30 km (in some circumstances it may be longer, but the probability of capture decreases), so it needs to be carried out for about 5 minutes to the target, then the AGS will turn on.
                I believed that AGSN stands for Active Homing.

                absolutely right. Only the range of its operation is relatively short - this is typical for all modern missiles with AGSN, so long-range missiles are first brought in using radio correction according to the radar commands of the air defense system as close to the target as possible, then they turn on the AGSN and with its help it is aimed only at the very last section.
              2. 0
                12 May 2019 12: 05
                So it turns out that from a cannon we hit a plane with a wick on a plane?

                Of course not.
                Missiles with AGSN today, perhaps, the most high-tech air defense missiles.
                But they also have their own characteristics of application as part of the complex. Due to the relatively small size and power of the AGSN on such missiles at long distances, combined control is used for them - on the route the missile is driven by an inertial system with correction from the air defense radar, and only in the last section the AGSN is turned on for accurate guidance. When used correctly, the effectiveness of missiles with AGSN is very high.
                But with the right one.
                1. 0
                  12 May 2019 12: 31
                  Clear. Thank. smile
              3. 0
                12 May 2019 12: 15
                E2 Hokai in length of about 17 meters, it is a very small plane. For comparison, the Su-35, for example, is about 22 meters, the Russian A-50 AWACS is 48 meters.
                He, of course, doesn’t have close maneuverability of the fighter, but this is not a clumsy passenger plane.
    2. 0
      11 May 2019 11: 05
      Quote: Avior
      Airplanes can change the radio horizon line to contact the ship very easily and at least every few minutes.
      A ship for him is a slow and conspicuous target located in open space, it does not need to be constantly monitored.
      The rocket even for 300 km after launching flies minutes, and the aircraft has every chance under this radio horizon line to get out of the AHDR rocket action zone, therefore, in my opinion, the real significance of ultra-long-range missiles for shipboard air defense should be assessed carefully.


      Ultra-long-range missiles with ARGSN are needed in order to have a chance to hit a target that "dives" below the radio horizon, and to implement measures to increase the detection range of low-flying targets: https://topwar.ru/157292-obespechenie-raboty-zrk-po- nizkoletjaschim-celjam-bez-privlechenija-aviacii-vvs.html
      1. 0
        11 May 2019 13: 04
        I wrote above there, too much odds are obtained from an aircraft at such a launch distance, it will have time to leave the radio horizon and then get out of the ARGSN detection zone, in any case, the aircraft have all the chances for that, if the pilots do not click hi
        1. +1
          11 May 2019 21: 59
          Quote: Avior
          I wrote above there, too much odds are obtained from an aircraft at such a launch distance, it will have time to leave the radio horizon and then get out of the ARGSN detection zone, in any case, the aircraft have all the chances for that, if the pilots do not click hi


          If the ship is not something that will increase the radio horizon. In this case, the pilot is waiting for a surprise. laughing
          1. 0
            11 May 2019 23: 46
            With regard to the capabilities of the air defense system, there is nothing like this in nature yet.
            A-50m won't even fit on such a large ship laughing
            if something like this appears then another thing.
            1. +1
              12 May 2019 00: 51
              The fleet has a couple of Ka-31 AWACS helicopters. Tethered copters and special drones are being developed.
              1. 0
                12 May 2019 08: 31
                Ka-31 - this is for target designation distant RCC.
                According to him, the air defense system cannot form a radio correction.
                Yes, and he does not have the ability to hang in the air for air defense — neither in terms of flight duration, nor in fuel supply on board.
                Tethered copters and special drones are being developed.

                two big differences are being developed and are standardly in service, as you know.
                especially when it comes to ranges of 400 km.
                1. 0
                  12 May 2019 23: 50
                  Quote: Avior
                  Ka-31 - this is for target designation distant RCC.
                  According to him, the air defense system cannot form a radio correction.

                  Why can't it? In Soviet times, "Kirov" and Ka-25Ts could, and now have forgotten how?
                  1. -1
                    13 May 2019 14: 48
                    they could never, only general detection, you can’t shoot at this data.
                    then, in general, not a single air defense system fired according to data from a third-party radar, it had to take its own radar at first
    3. 0
      12 May 2019 00: 12
      Quote: Avior
      The real significance of ultra-long-range missiles for ship-based air defense must be assessed carefully.
      So they are mainly for Hokai to scrape from the sky. It is the E-2C that the Hornets direct, going lower, under the radio horizon, to the turn of the PRK. At the turn of the use of anti-ship missiles, the F-18Е / A gain altitude for the use of weapons, usually under the cover of Prowler / Grouler, and then dive under the horizon with a change in the departure rate to the AVU.
      So, in order to hit such aircraft, long-range missiles are thrown higher, where they open the seeker and attack the target from above. The technique was called "the falcon strike".
      Therefore, long-range missiles are very useful for NK.
      1. 0
        12 May 2019 00: 21
        during the time of launching the Khornetov’s attack, the position of the ship will change slightly and Hokai does not need to constantly hang over the radio horizon if such missiles appear.
        So, in order to hit such aircraft, long-range missiles are thrown higher, where they open the seeker and attack the target from above. The technique was called "the falcon strike".

        I don’t understand this. is the Hornets so you need to attack close, but with a long-range missile?
      2. +1
        12 May 2019 21: 06
        Long-range missiles, that ours, that the "Patriot", can be guided only at targets that can be seen by the guidance radar (ground or on a ship). If the targets are not visible to the multifunctional guidance station, no "falcon strike" is possible. even ARGSN has very limited capabilities to find a target in azimuth, elevation and range. The approach of the missile defense system to the target from above is used in many air defense systems when firing at low-flying targets to reduce the aiming error and exclude the operation of the radio fuse from reflections from the surface. This method has nothing to do with "over-the-horizon" firing of missiles.
        1. 0
          13 May 2019 00: 08
          Quote: samaravega
          Long-range missiles that ours, that "patriot", can be guided only at targets that can be seen by the guidance radar (ground or on a ship)

          And on ka? Why do you exclude the possibility of targeting long-range shipboard SAM from space to the target acquisition zone of an active R / L (IR / UV) GOS of advanced K-77 SAMs?
          1. 0
            13 May 2019 14: 07
            How do you imagine the technical side of the guidance of missiles from space? Concrete questions:
            1. You just need a huge number of satellites that could control the entire TERRITORY of the planet in "real time" mode. Even the NAVSTAR system (for "civil" GPS) requires the simultaneous presence of at least 24 ACTING satellites in well-calculated orbits (by the way, the system parameters, satellite orbits and other very important calculations were performed by Academician Kapitsa, published in the scientific press, the Americans shamelessly used). It was the inadequacy of satellites that held back the entry into operation of the GLONASS system for a long time.
            2. These satellites must carry active radars with high resolution ("see" on the satellite radar a flying aircraft is still an unresolved issue, especially missiles with a much lower ESR). This is a matter of physics, it has to do with the wavelengths that can penetrate the Earth's ionosphere. Simpler: "Carapace" with a millimeter-wave radar through the ionosphere will "see" me through a brick wall.
            3. Equipment of this type on a satellite will require a lot of energy. The only satellites with radars (although their range allowed only large naval targets and objects like them to be detected) that actually flew into space are Soviet ICRC systems (naval space reconnaissance targets). The power supply of the radar was carried out by a small-sized nuclear reactor on board the satellite. After the fall of one such satellite in Canada with the concomitant and inevitable contamination of the area, they began to be used only for specific purposes, for example, the Anglo-Argentine war, and with the collapse of the USSR, they no longer "pull".
            4. Any SAM that receives guidance or correction from the SAM is built according to a noise-immune scheme. A very difficult question: how to ensure the correction of the missile defense system from an external source (an AWACS plane, another air defense missile system, a satellite, it is not important) and at the same time not allow the same missile defense system to be "corrected" (or simply "misled") to an enemy possessing perfect by means of RTR and electronic warfare?
            The example of Iran shows that even a not very advanced country was able to pick up a "code" for the UAV control commands and almost land it. This is in peacetime.
            5. I am not writing all this to show how smart I am. For two months, probably, I have been writing in the comments on this site and I am more and more convinced: the majority of "commentators" (and many authors) write based on articles in the internet and other media, without even trying to delve into and think: "but in general from the point of view of laws physics (for example) is it possible? " I beg you (although this applies more to the authors), read more, especially since now a lot of literature is available in electronic form.
            1. 0
              13 May 2019 14: 33
              Quote: samaravega
              How do you imagine the technical side of targeting missiles from space?

              Colleague, thank you for moralizing and wishes hi , but you did not read my post. Yes
              I talked about the introduction of missiles in the zone of the LA, the distance (switching on the command / program), the detection and capture of LA own GOS ZUR. Do not you think that this is somewhat different from the GUIDANCE (i.e., the command TU ZUR by the operator) on the target?
              W-2's, before that there was material on the site about "Liana". 4 satellites in 1000 km orbit, in the controlled areas of the Ocean, perfectly see 3-meter objects, including aircraft. They even give out the control center to the carriers .... And there are no small-sized nuclear reactors, this is yesterday's day. So read more as you advise others! laughing
              B-3's, We are working on the F-35 as a center for the collection and distribution of targets in real time on the battlefield - for all carriers. Why do you deny us this? Just because there is no information in the open press? or - "we are forever behind" from the Yankees!
              What I am already writing about in NIR is not far off the OCDs. So that:
              "Don't hang your nose, midshipmen!" wink
              Sincerely, Boa.
              1. 0
                13 May 2019 15: 12
                The above-mentioned "Launching the SAM into the zone where the aircraft is located" does not remove any of my questions: the number of satellites, the equipment on them, the possibility of detecting small-sized objects from them, the method of transmitting commands to the SAM (for its "Entering the zone", or it will go there without commands?) and protection of these commands from RTR and electronic warfare, a power source for this satellite equipment. The "Liana" system is based on the PASSIVE RTR satellites (there were such satellites in the "Legenda" ICRC, but only supplemented the satellites with radar), these satellites, by definition, cannot "see" non-emitting targets (which are the SVN from the KR to the "stealthy" and even missiles with ARGSN due to the power and range of ARGSN), all the more, something somewhere to "output". Their control system concerns surface and air emitting targets, it can be received and tested only by special equipment previously intended for the "Legend" and completely unsuitable for installation not only on missiles, but even on air defense systems. Moreover, the accuracy of the control center according to the passive RTR data is suitable (and even then not always) for striking anti-ship missiles with "artificial intelligence" (such as "basalt" and "granite"), but for intercepting air targets it unambiguously requires additional search for radars of ships (by airplanes, AWACS helicopters). Please read not only sites.
  11. +3
    11 May 2019 09: 01
    A series of project 1144 was produced with constant changes, including weapons.
    the plate illustrates the changes in the composition of the weapons of different ships of the project

    And further. An important nuance from the point of view of the PLO is not only the number of helicopters (in addition, there must be at least one Ka-31, which is not a PLO helicopter, if I understand correctly), but also the supply of jet fuel on board.
    I remember that at 1144 it was not very large, especially as for a ship of such a displacement.
  12. +3
    11 May 2019 09: 28
    The stump is clear in the big case, you can just push it in much more.

    There remain "simple" questions, for example:
    1.If the cost of the frigate’s hull and power units is about 30% of the total, the remaining 70% is weapons. A cruiser for the triple cost of a frigate can receive four times more weapons than a frigate without major repairs to the hull and power units. And if with a complete overhaul, the superiority in weapons proportionally increases the amount of repair.
    2. There are three goals, each with its own maneuver and means of detection. There is one goal. This must also be taken into account.
    3.Kryeser will not be new anyway. Its resource is presumed to be less than the resource of a new frigate. No one has yet canceled metal fatigue.
    4. Such a comparison was made possible not because of a good idea about cruisers, but because of the frigate’s shortcomings.
    1. 0
      12 May 2019 09: 10
      Andrei Shmelev (Andrei Shmelev)

      The stump is clear in the big case, you can just push it in much more.

      There remain "simple" questions, for example:
      1.If the cost of the frigate’s hull and power units is about 30% of the total, the remaining 70% is weapons. A cruiser for the triple cost of a frigate can receive four times more weapons than a frigate without major repairs to the hull and power units. And if with a complete overhaul, the superiority in weapons proportionally increases the amount of repair.
      2. There are three goals, each with its own maneuver and means of detection. There is one goal. This must also be taken into account.
      3.Kryeser will not be new anyway. Its resource is presumed to be less than the resource of a new frigate. No one has yet canceled metal fatigue.
      4. Such a comparison was made possible not because of a good idea about cruisers, but because of the frigate’s shortcomings.

      You have not yet taken into account that:

      1. TARKR, unlike frigates, is on nuclear fuel and does not require that a tanker with fuel accompany it on a long voyage;

      2. TARKR is a ship of the "ocean zone", and the frigates of project 22350 are only of the "far sea zone";

      3. TARKR, most likely, will nevertheless install the ship’s S-500, currently under development, and it will be able to shoot down ICBM warheads in near space, which the frigates of project 22350 will not be able to do.

      Therefore, the fleet needs both types of ships, each of them has its own mission.
      1. 0
        12 May 2019 09: 56
        You have not yet taken into account that:


        always taken into account + the same is written in the article

        both types of ships are needed


        and still aug

        problem number times:
        a modernized cruiser is likely more expensive than three frigates, but the comparison is incorrect
        problem number two:
        the cruiser will still have to be decommissioned in 2030-2035, and frigates can swim until 2050, again, the comparison is incorrect
        problem number three:
        nobody was puzzled to make the frigate an ocean, so we sit and discuss the modernization of the cruiser
        problem number four:
        money and industry capacities will be enough for one thing, most likely
        1. -2
          12 May 2019 13: 49
          Andrei Shmelev (Andrei Shmelev)

          problem number times:
          the upgraded cruiser is likely more expensive than three frigates, and the comparison is incorrect
          problem number two:
          the cruiser will still have to be decommissioned in 2030-2035, and frigates can swim until 2050, again, the comparison is incorrect
          problem number three:
          nobody was puzzled to make the frigate an ocean, so we sit and discuss the modernization of the cruiser
          problem number four:
          money and industry capacities will be enough for one thing, most likely

          1. You do not have data on the price, and, therefore, why focus on your own speculations, assumptions, which may turn out to be incorrect.

          2. What makes you think that they will write off in 2030-2035, and not in 2050-2055, again another conjecture-speculation.

          3. There is money in the reserve fund, with production capacities worse. Or do you think why now they spend money on the construction of new shipyards, from lack of money or what?
          1. 0
            12 May 2019 14: 35
            1. You do not have data on the price,


            read the respected author Andrei from Chelyabinsk is better: the hull + EU cost 30% of the price of a destroyer frigate, I have very reasonable assumption

            2. What makes you think that they will write off in 2030-2035


            look at the timing of the cancellation of Soviet ships, I have very reasonable assumption

            3. There is money in the reserve fund


            Since January 1, 2018, the Reserve Fund has been liquidated and merged with the National Welfare Fund. bully
          2. 0
            12 May 2019 21: 55
            cons are not mine, colleague
      2. 0
        12 May 2019 10: 12
        In general, I propose to cut another 100500 articles on the topic to the author:
        "What would be better than a modernized Tsarevich or three Novik-class destroyers?"
        wassat
  13. +2
    11 May 2019 09: 34
    Thanks for the article, definitely a plus. TARKR is able to give combat stability to any KMG, KPUG, DesO or just a very important convoy and make air defense truly layered.
  14. +1
    11 May 2019 09: 40
    What is the point of arguing about what is most likely not to happen? A war with the United States is impossible for 2 reasons: first, it will go nuclear because of disparate conventional weapons; the second - even if you do not take into account the first reason, for each TARKR, Americans can put up an aircraft carrier group and more than one. With the same probability, one can speculate about the comparative capabilities of TARKR in a collision with aliens.
    What is better for the Russian fleet? One cruiser or 3 multi-purpose ships of the ocean zone? The rhetorical question, you need both one and the other and more. But if the economy is not equivalent to the American or Chinese, then the answer is obvious.
    1. +1
      11 May 2019 10: 19
      Recommend giving up? Or abandon the fleet opposing the United States? Neither frigates nor cruisers, is it better to increase pensions?
    2. -1
      12 May 2019 08: 44
      sevtrash (Sergey)

      What is the point of arguing about what is most likely not to happen? A war with the United States is impossible for 2 reasons: first, it will go nuclear because of disparate conventional weapons; the second - even if you do not take into account the first reason, for each TARKR, Americans can put up an aircraft carrier group and more than one.
      What is better for the Russian fleet? One cruiser or 3 multi-purpose ships of the ocean zone?

      War with the United States is really not possible in our time, but a local conflict can happen.

      Carrier groups are quite vulnerable, especially for Zircons and especially with nuclear submarines.

      The frigates of Project 22350 mentioned in the article do not belong to ships of the "ocean zone", but refer to ships only in the "far sea zone", but the TARKR is really a ship of the "ocean zone".
  15. 0
    11 May 2019 09: 44
    an interesting article is waiting for continuation
  16. exo
    +1
    11 May 2019 10: 15
    If it weren’t for the weak capabilities of ship repair, it would definitely have been necessary to put into operation another ship of this type (the Kirov, quite ancient).
    But, with our repair potential (remember the drowned dock), we would save those ships that were still afloat.
    By the way, why not Peter the Great, to modernize in St. Petersburg, at the Baltic Plant? The cruiser will go under its own power. And in the North, there will be room for his sister-thorn. However, the question is rhetorical.
    1. +2
      11 May 2019 13: 49
      there all the slipways under the icebreakers are occupied
    2. +1
      11 May 2019 19: 05
      on the BZ is not a dock, but a slipway.
  17. +1
    11 May 2019 10: 24
    I do not understand the suffering of the author. The fact that 2 units of ships in the far sea zone will be decommissioned is determined not by what is more needed - they or frigates, but solely by the technical condition of the "canned food" and, in particular, the condition of the hull and reactors. Why are 2 projects compared with different autonomy, different displacement and different tasks? We need both those and others. Both those and others require modernization. Project 1144 is being modernized in old buildings as a temporary solution. Project 22350 is now being finalized to the level of 22350M in new modified buildings. Why does it sound like "or" again when the tasks of the fleet require "and"?
    1. 0
      11 May 2019 19: 03
      plans include modernization of 1155, is being carried out at one of them now, but the final decision is still unknown, the results are not yet clear. According to the eagles, it’s obvious that Nakhimov is in the modernization and the fate of only Peter is being decided. by 2023 it will be clear on both projects.
  18. 0
    11 May 2019 10: 43
    What is more useful for the fleet: one nuclear cruiser or three frigates?


    The answer to this question greatly depends on the practical number of ships. The only nuclear cruiser or frigates, but three are one, and three nuclear cruisers and 9 frigates is another.

    What was it about all the eggs in one basket?
    1. -1
      12 May 2019 08: 35
      Horse, people ѣ and soul ѣ love (Incitatus)

      What is more useful for the fleet: one nuclear cruiser or three frigates?



      The answer to this question greatly depends on the practical number of ships. The only nuclear cruiser or frigates, but three are one, and three nuclear cruisers and 9 frigates is another.

      What was it about all the eggs in one basket?

      Have you ever heard of such a thing as the necessary combination of different types of weapons?

      Let's compare AB with missile boats!
      1. -1
        12 May 2019 12: 11
        Have you ever heard of such a thing as the necessary combination of different types of weapons?


        About this you tell the multi-star admirals. Talk about something - the only nuclear cruiser, or to begin with frigates, but three.
  19. +1
    11 May 2019 11: 41
    I'm a land man. When I read articles about our missile cruisers, at first righteous anger boils, the words "pride", "flag", "power" appear in my head. Emotion, in short. And then I start to think to what extent the terrestrial worldview allows. And other words come to mind - "a suitcase without a handle."
  20. 0
    11 May 2019 12: 23
    In my opinion, naval, the view of TARK Orlan is a masterpiece of shipbuilding, and has operational and strategic naval significance ... What frigates 22350 Gorshkov do not have. Cruisers represent the pinnacle of engineering and the defense industry of a particular maritime power. To counter such cruisers, the enemy will have to organize a special operation, especially if the cruiser will have multi-part escort or KUG. Given the presence of modern weapons systems on board cruisers, its defensive capabilities will certainly surpass the enemy’s strike potential. Those. such an Orlan-M will become an irresistible force anywhere in the world’s oceans.
    1. +1
      12 May 2019 21: 12
      "Bismarck" and "Tirpitz" do not remind? Have they fought a lot?
      1. +1
        13 May 2019 10: 51
        It is very reminiscent of ... The White Elephant ... But the Germans did not have escort, there was no such air defense and anti-aircraft defense that could be provided with modern forces and means. An insurmountable defense can be built around the cruiser. For example, taking advantage of its nuclear power plant and placing Peresvet in addition to the rest. A PLO can provide 4 Poseidon.
        1. 0
          13 May 2019 14: 32
          Do we have an escort? There is no insurmountable defense, there is not enough forces and means of the attacker, or their illiterate use. The striker always takes the initiative, he chooses the place, time, composition of forces and means, etc. That is why in all battles and wars, one of the first questions was: who owns the initiative. "Bismarck", "Tirpitz" and our "white elephant", by definition, can not own the initiative, respectively, by definition, they are doomed. As for the PLO from "Poseidon": it was created for completely different purposes and in terms of PLO from him, like from Poseidon milk. I have to address you to the phrase of the Commander-in-Chief of the USSR Navy S.G. Gorshkov regarding the ships of projects 1144 (Kirov) and 1164 (Slava): "Objectively, the nuclear-powered ship is more powerful. But outwardly, an ordinary cruiser is fiercer, more belligerent, more aggressive. It will put pressure on the psyche, and this factor, especially in politics, is far from last and not useless. " This phrase of the Commander-in-Chief of the USSR Navy was uttered when the USSR Navy was different from the current Russian Navy, like an elephant from a pug. But even then, the "permanent commander-in-chief" quite correctly defined the role of the USSR surface fleet: "displaying the flag", political pressure, designation of presence. Taking into account the current state of the country and the armed forces, all this is possible only in relation to the countries of the "3rd world". From the point of view of POLITICAL necessity (and the surface-to-water fleet of the Russian Federation, like the USSR and the Russian Empire, is a much more political instrument than a military one), three new frigates (even if project 11356) are UNIFORMALLY better than one "super cruiser". They can simply "show the flag" in at least two regions (if one is being repaired).
  21. +1
    11 May 2019 12: 37
    This is what interests me. (are there naval electronics engineers here.?)
    On the ship (cruiser) just a bunch of wiring, a huge number.
    What am I doing, used to be in a car, there was also a bunch of wiring, but then it was replaced with one universal bus, to which all the electrical equipment of the car is connected.
    How are things on the ship? All the same, thousands of kilometers of wiring or when upgrading already put electronic tires?
    Who knows what about this?
    1. 0
      12 May 2019 12: 14
      There should be several tires laid in different ways, like in aviation, so that if the tire is damaged, the whole ship as a result does not turn into a lifeless iron reef at the bottom. War is war.
    2. +1
      13 May 2019 11: 59
      Kilometers of armored cables. Each radar station has its own cables to its control system.
      Each control system has its own power supply unit. General - the ship's power plant and communication between the RTS and BCh-2, for example. "Frigate" head of the BCH-7, "Uragan" BCH-2, the control center goes from the "Fregat".
  22. 0
    11 May 2019 12: 51
    Most important balance
  23. +7
    11 May 2019 13: 15
    The author, of course, "+" for curious reasoning and an abundance of useful information ... BUT! He shouldn't have written THIS article ... It's like comparing a "hedgehog and a snake" (if you cross them, then in accordance with the "bearded" joke: you get 10 meters of barbed wire). Well, or ask the question: "Which is better: 1" flying fortress "or 5 Mustang fighters ???
    To compare - TARKR and 3 frigates - it's just some kind of "childish idea" ... WHAT is better ??
    If we talk about the presence (long-term) in the far ocean zone (well, let's say there is patrolling off the coast of Cuba or Venezuela or in the Indian Ocean - then it is clear NOTHING better than TARKR - NO !!! Frigates - "do not dance" ...
    But if we are talking about covering the deployment of SSBNs and submarines and "cutting off enemy nuclear submarines - then there are just 3 frigates - OUT of competition! In any case, they (three of them) will cover where a LARGE area (no matter how powerful the GAS TARKR has!)
    One more moment: "Admiral Nakhimov" - already hit the 30th nickname! ALL electronic stuffing is hopelessly outdated! Something of course can be replaced ... "SOMETHING" - but NOT ALL !!! Well, it will extend its service life by another 10-15 years .... And then ???
    And 22350 - cars - new, all "stuffing". In 15 years there will be more WOO-GO !!!
    Well, then WHAT TO COMPARE ??? request
    1. +3
      11 May 2019 17: 10
      You are wrong. I can give an example from WWII! The battleship Tirpitz almost never went out but forced the British Admirals to constantly keep large forces of both the submarine and surface fleets in readiness to intercept this ship. Also, the TARKR will rivet in the far zone surface and submarine forces of the enemy that will not be able to carry out other tasks, for example, to prevent the deployment of nuclear submarines
      1. +1
        12 May 2019 12: 17
        Then the allies did not have nuclear weapons and missiles. Today, such a battleship in skerries is just a useless piece of iron.

        The destruction of one such battleship destroys all the mega-weapons placed on it.

        All eggs in one basket - this will facilitate the enemy's work.
        1. -2
          12 May 2019 17: 03
          Gg, take the Bismarck spike that was in the Atlantic !! And we consider how many forces were involved to destroy it !!! And yes nuclear weapons are not a panacea. Operation Crossroad, where the ships did not have a crew but the survivability showed excellent. Missiles are not a panacea, the Kyrgyz Republic is too big, only with mass use they can cause irreparable damage (which has been repeatedly proved by the modern use of these weapons)
    2. -1
      12 May 2019 08: 26
      venik (Vladimir)

      To compare - TARKR and 3 frigates - it's just some kind of "childish idea" ... WHAT is better ??
      If we talk about the presence (long-term) in the far ocean zone (well, let's say there is patrolling off the coast of Cuba or Venezuela or in the Indian Ocean - then it is clear NOTHING better than TARKR - NO !!! Frigates - "do not dance" ...
      But if we are talking about covering the deployment of SSBNs and submarines and "cutting off enemy nuclear submarines - then there are just 3 frigates - OUT of competition! In any case, they (three of them) will cover where a LARGE area (no matter how powerful the GAS TARKR has!)

      Of course, one cannot disagree with this statement. Therefore, both types of ships are needed.


      venik (Vladimir)

      One more moment: "Admiral Nakhimov" - already hit the 30th nickname! ALL electronic stuffing is hopelessly outdated! Something of course can be replaced ... "SOMETHING" - but NOT ALL !!! Well, it will extend its service life by another 10-15 years .... And then ???

      And where does such peremptory confidence come from? Why is it suddenly impossible to replace all the electronics? Moreover, modern electronics, as a rule, takes up less space and weighs less.

      And on the basis of what data do you claim the service life can be extended only by 10-15 years, and not by 20-25, for example?
      1. 0
        12 May 2019 10: 12
        Quote: 1Alexey
        And where does such peremptory confidence come from? Why is it suddenly impossible to replace all the electronics? Moreover, modern electronics, as a rule, takes up less space and weighs less.

        ==================================
        Dear 1Alexey! The question is not about weight and dimensions !!! The question is in the PRICE !!! If and so the refurbishment "at a minimum" (with a minimum replacement of electronics and weapon systems, with more modern ones), as the author pointed out, will cost 50 billion rubles, then how much will a complete "upgrade" of ALL the filling cost ??? Have you tried to estimate? Considering that approx. Half of the cost of modern warships (and sometimes more!) is not the hull and weapons, but just the electronic filling and weapon systems. So, it turns out that ALL the electronics can be replaced ... But it is NOT PERFECT!
        ---------------
        Quote: 1Alexey
        And on the basis of what data do you claim the service life can be extended only by 10-15 years, and not by 20-25, for example?

        ==========
        Purely estimated data based on how long they usually serve in our fleet after refurbishment, and also on the fact that the service life of a ship with nuclear power usually does not exceed 40-45 years !!! "Nakhimov" - already 30, while the repair (+ 2-3 years), + 15 more how many are coming out ?? About "fifty dollars? And how will its" electronic filling "look by 2040 ???
        Somewhere like that!
        1. 0
          12 May 2019 12: 24
          The question is not in the mass-dimensional characteristics !!! The question is in the PRICE !!!


          The question is precisely in price and also in time.

          When money is limited, but defense should not suffer, IMHO should build modern frigates with modern weapons, and after saturating the fleet with frigates, reanimate atomic cruisers.
        2. 0
          12 May 2019 14: 45
          venik (Vladimir)

          If and so the refurbishment "at a minimum" (with a minimum replacement of electronics and weapon systems, for more modern ones), as the author pointed out, will cost 50 billion rubles, then how much will a complete "upgrade" of ALL the filling cost ???

          Dear Vladimir, why did you decide that this is "at a minimum" and not a complete replacement?

          The article says: "The first thing I would like to note is that, unfortunately, there is no exact data on the cost of modernization of Admiral Nakhimov. In 2012, A. Shlemov, at that time - the head of the state defense order department, estimated its value at 50 billion rubles."

          I did not find words about the minimum or incomplete replacement of all electronics here.
        3. 0
          12 May 2019 15: 01
          venik (Vladimir) Today, 10:12

          Purely estimated data, based on how much they usually serve in our fleet after reconstruction, and also on the fact that the life of a ship with a nuclear power plant does not usually exceed 40-45 years !!!

          So this is the case if the ship with the nuclear power plant was actively operated, that is, the nuclear power plant can work for 40-45 years.

          And in our case, this TARK was not used for a long time after being mothballed, therefore, its service life should be increased by downtime.
  24. +1
    11 May 2019 13: 30
    On November 28, 1971, the technical project 1144 was reviewed. Now is the year 2019. Accordingly, the project is 48 years old.
    Approximately as in 1947 to consider options for modernizing battleships of the "Borodino" type. Or in 1956 to reconstruct battleships of the "Sevastopol" class.
    1. +2
      11 May 2019 14: 59
      Not quite correct comparison
  25. +2
    11 May 2019 13: 48
    In short, TARKR and frigates are needed, only there is no money for all this magnificence in the budget
  26. +6
    11 May 2019 15: 48
    The eternal question, which is more important ... The Navy Commander-in-Chief finally has to decide which surface fleet we need. To do this, you need to understand what tasks and for what purposes it is posed on the basis of our marine doctrine. But this is a global plan for the future. And in the present, we do not have a sufficient quantity and quality of forces necessary for the normal deployment of fleets in wartime to solve the first problem. OVR brigades are pulled into divisions in quantitative composition, and to museums in qualitative composition. We are gathering a thread to the Mediterranean compound from the world, it generally resembles in composition 2 Pacific squadron, we collected everything that was. But the most interesting thing is that the Glavkomat also does not want to solve the problems in the present! Ship repair - corruption and money laundering, minesweepers we build one at a time, IPCs have completely forgotten - again money laundering on obscure projects. Horror !!! And the main thing is a shame to look at all this. The teachers at the school said that we were lucky and we will serve on new ships, I am already a young pensioner, and my IPC continues to carry out tasks. He is already 33 years old !!!
  27. +2
    11 May 2019 16: 05
    The article is a big plus, it is very interestingly stated. And most importantly, the author’s unbiased approach is visible, it can be seen that he wants to at least try to get to the bottom of the truth, and not just push his predefined point of view, as other authors often do here.
  28. +5
    11 May 2019 16: 26
    The article is interesting. but the author is fond of purely military statistics - the number and performance characteristics of missiles / torpedoes, etc.
    No less important, and maybe more questions:
    1) Organization of basing and repair of TARKR and frigates, for a unique ship everything must be in stock, and this is not possible, so its combat readiness will not be constant and long in repair ... we need special support ships for nuclear warheads request
    2) Possibilities of demonstrating the flag of nuclear and conventional ships - can TARKR be sent to any foreign port on a visit? Or just buy food if necessary - relax the crew? request
    3) Crew training - YaSU TARKR is unique, as well as combinations of systems, and frigates are serial ..
    etc. etc ... And this all affects the cost of ownership ... request
  29. +2
    11 May 2019 16: 44
    Definitely three modern ships are better than one old albeit modernized. The best solution is destroyers similar to Arly Beru as the main units of the fleet. Plus, destroyers are easier to maintain and upgrade. Such large docks are not needed, such volumes of fuel and provisions are not needed ... When the ship is defeated, not 1000, but 300 sailors will die. Plus, to defeat 3 ships, at least three torpedoes are needed, and one is enough for one. Not for nothing in the US Navy, the main surface ship is the destroyer. China goes with the same path with its fleet. The only difference is that their type 55 is a victim of gigantomania and technology imperfections. And only in Russia there are some discussions on this subject ... Again, a special way and the invention of a bicycle? If there are no forces and tasks to build cruisers and aircraft carriers, you need to build what is quite effective and possible to build in large batches with available resources. And most importantly. It is necessary to ensure uniformity of samples for ease of operation and maintenance. However, such a logical path is not logical if the objectives are to cut the budget and reduce combat stability.
  30. +1
    11 May 2019 17: 22
    About missiles SAM. Does the author take into account that in the original version the ammunition load of the missile defense system is not 96 cells, but 12 * 8, that is, 12 revolving launchers (!!!) installations of 8 missiles each? On the Internet there is a photo of PU bottom view - "bunch" of TPK under the ceiling. After all, if you look at the missile deck, you can clearly see the covers of the "Fort" launcher. And if we talk about the author's dreams of crossing SAM and UKSK, then at the end we get what the Americans came to at 70 - universal cells. At least shoot down the satellites at least let the "Tomogavki" out. That is, if you bring it to its logical conclusion, then part of the cellar of the SAM is occupied by the same UKSK, and part - under the PU "Polyment".
    ZY By showing the flag. Please note that the ship with YSU will not be allowed everywhere. During military service in 1990-1991 in the Mediterranean "Kalinin" was allowed only to Tartus, and EM "Impeccable" was in Split both in Alexandria and in Tartus.
    1. 0
      11 May 2019 19: 48
      Quote: Not the fighter
      Does the author read that the original version of the missile ammunition missile is not 96 cells and 12 * 8, that is, 12 launcher revolver (!!!) installations on 8 missiles in each?

      What's the difference? "Revolvers" on TARKR will remain after modernization
  31. +2
    11 May 2019 19: 40
    I believe that Russia should be able to form at least one squadron of ships, albeit inter-naval, which could escape to the other end of the ball and defend the country's interests there for a couple of months. We have almost no bases around the world, so the atomic 1144 is very relevant and will greatly reduce the degree of supply problems. And the fact that an atomic ship is not allowed to go everywhere is not as critical for him as for an ordinary one.
  32. 0
    11 May 2019 19: 52
    What can I think, TARKs are already outdated for such a proud name, they need to be done more, with a large number and nomenclature of missiles (including nuclear ones), with the possibility of long patrols in northern waters and an escort from these frigates.
  33. 0
    11 May 2019 19: 54
    the author next respect for the article ... and the correct analysis of information IMHO
    Andrei, as always, writes very interesting articles ... for VO there would be more such authors drinks
  34. 0
    12 May 2019 00: 22
    The main thing that the author missed in comparing the utility of one atomic cruiser and three frigates is energy capabilities. With the progress of laser weapons, it becomes necessary to install such weapons on ships in the far zone. Frigates have limited options for this. The cruiser’s YA has practically unlimited possibilities for obtaining the energy required for laser weapons. And this is very important and this is why 3 yes even 5 frigates will not replace one cruiser with YaU in the future.
  35. -3
    12 May 2019 05: 39
    The author is very poorly versed in air defense: why do you need to keep the S-300F, if it will be installed significantly superior Polement-Redoubt ?!
  36. -3
    12 May 2019 05: 53
    It is also known (but this is slightly less reliable) that they will not put any S-400 on TARKR

    production capacities will certainly not be overloaded in the near future with orders for Poliment-Redut. Thus, we can assume that with the production of this complex for “Admiral Nakhimov” there will not be any special problems.

    Another demonstration of the author’s complete illiteracy in air defense issues!
    Polyment-Reduta PUs are universal for missiles from S-350 and for missiles from S-400. And test launches of such a rocket from Polement-Redut Admiral Gorshkov have already been planned this year.
    (https://topwar.ru/150033-zrk-poliment-redut-poluchit-dalnobojnuju-sverhzvukovuju-raketu.html),
    (https://tsargrad.tv/news/modernizirovannaja-raketa-ss-400-uvelichit-dalnost-perehvata-celi-upoliment-reduta-pochti-v-tri-raza_183810).
    1. +1
      12 May 2019 11: 07
      Quote: 1Alexey
      At Polyment-Reduta are universal for rockets from C-350 and for rockets from C-400

      laughing fool
      Read your links. Where is there even a word about the launching of the SA-N-Redoubt to launch ultra-long-range missiles?
      Quote: 1Alexey
      Why do you need to keep C-300F, if it is installed significantly superior Polymer Redut ?!

      So not only the author, but also admirals, and designers who for some reason install Fort-M on TARKR. How did they not listen to you so sensible and knowledgeable? laughing
      1. -4
        12 May 2019 13: 36
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk (Andrei)

        Quote: 1Alexey
        At Polyment-Reduta are universal for rockets from C-350 and for rockets from C-400


        laughing fool
        Read your links. Where is there even a word about the launching of the SA-N-Redoubt to launch ultra-long-range missiles?

        What can't you read?

        I quote from the 1st link: "Complexes" Polyment-Redut "will receive a new long-range supersonic missile, which will allow hitting aerodynamic targets at an altitude of 35 km and a range of up to 400 km, Izvestia reports with reference to the RF Ministry of Defense."

        I quote from the 2nd link:
        "The ultra-long-range anti-aircraft guided missile, developed on the basis of the 40N6 ammunition of the S-400 and S-500 ground systems, will increase the interception range of the Polyment-Redut air defense missile system to 400 km. This is almost three times more than the current figure."

        If you still can not read, then contact the junior high school.

        Andrei from Chelyabinsk (Andrei)

        Quote: 1Alexey
        Why do you need to keep C-300F, if it is installed significantly superior Polymer Redut ?!


        So not only the author, but also admirals, and designers who for some reason install Fort-M on TARKR. How did they not listen to you so sensible and knowledgeable?

        Why are you so openly lying? Where are the current admirals and designers officially making a decision on the simultaneous installation on TARKR and Fort-M and Polymer Redut?

        Or to justify yourself Are you ready to go to any lie?
        1. +2
          12 May 2019 13: 49
          Quote: 1Alexey
          What can't you read?

          I can read. And even I can understand what I read, with which you have obvious problems.
          Quote: 1Alexey
          I quote from the 1st link: "Complexes" Polyment-Redut "will receive a new long-range supersonic missile, which will allow hitting aerodynamic targets at an altitude of 35 km and a range of up to 400 km, Izvestia reports with reference to the RF Ministry of Defense."

          I quote again the information from the Almaz-Antey website, for the first time I quoted in the article:
          For firing, the Polimen-Redut anti-aircraft missiles use launchers (PU) of the universal ship complex 3С14 (UCSC), which are equipped in the Russian fleet with ships that carry Caliber cruise missiles and Onyx anti-ship missiles.

          I explain for the more advanced - the fact that the Polyment-redoubt complex will be able to fire long-range missiles does not mean that the standard Reduta launcher will be used for these missiles.
          Quote: 1Alexey
          If you still can not read, then contact the junior high school.

          If you still can not understand, then contact your physician directly.
          Quote: 1Alexey
          Why are you so openly lying? Where are the current admirals and designers officially making a decision on the simultaneous installation on TARKR and Fort-M and Polymer Redut?

          Information about installing POLYRENT REDOUT on TARKR was
          During the upgrade, the Admiral Nakhimov project 1144 Orlan heavy nuclear missile cruiser (TARKR) will be equipped with the Caliber multipurpose missile system and the new Polyment-Redut air defense missile system, the Vzglyad online newspaper reports with reference to a representative of the Navy

          Information about dismantling the C-300 - never happened before. You can make a conclusion yourself, or help?
          1. -4
            12 May 2019 14: 05
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk (Andrei)

            Quote: 1Alexey
            What can't you read?


            I can read. And even I can understand what I read, with which you have obvious problems.
            Quote: 1Alexey
            I quote from the 1st link: "Complexes" Polyment-Redut "will receive a new long-range supersonic missile, which will allow hitting aerodynamic targets at an altitude of 35 km and a range of up to 400 km, Izvestia reports with reference to the RF Ministry of Defense."

            I quote again the information from the Almaz-Antey website, for the first time I quoted in the article:
            For firing, the Polimen-Redut anti-aircraft missiles use launchers (PU) of the universal ship complex 3С14 (UCSC), which are equipped in the Russian fleet with ships that carry Caliber cruise missiles and Onyx anti-ship missiles.

            I explain for the more advanced - the fact that the Polyment-Redoubt complex will be able to fire long-range missiles does not mean that the standard Redoubt launcher will be used for these missiles.
            "
            And you read only what is beneficial to you!
            In the 2nd paragraph of the 1st link, it is clearly written: "The military department told that a new long-range supersonic missile is being created for anti-aircraft complexes "Poliment-Redut", which are in service with the ships of the Navy. Tests of the new rocket will be held next year, it is planned that the rocket will become part of the armament of the frigates of the project 22350 "Admiral Gorshkov".

            The "Admiral Gorshkov" has a standard Reduta launcher installed!

            Andrei from Chelyabinsk (Andrei)

            Information about installing POLYRENT REDOUT on TARKR was
            During the upgrade, the Admiral Nakhimov project 1144 Orlan heavy nuclear missile cruiser (TARKR) will be equipped with the Caliber multipurpose missile system and the new Polyment-Redut air defense missile system, the Vzglyad online newspaper reports with reference to a representative of the Navy

            Information about dismantling the C-300 - never happened before. You can make a conclusion yourself, or help?

            That's it, that there was information about the installation of Polimen-Redut, and there was no information about saving Fort-M.

            And, if you are guided by your absurd logic, it turns out that the Caliber will be installed in addition to Granite, because the words about the dismantling of Granite are also not in your quote.

            Although it is obvious that the Caliber is installed instead of Granite, and Poliment-Redoubt instead of S-300.
            1. +1
              12 May 2019 15: 58
              Quote: 1Alexey
              The "Admiral Gorshkov" has a standard Reduta launcher installed!

              And full-time ZS-14 UKKS. Forgot?
              Quote: 1Alexey
              That's it, that there was information about the installation of Polimen-Redut, and there was no information about saving Fort-M.

              They already buy FORT-M, this is the data of the shipyard, what else do you need?
              Quote: 1Alexey
              And, if you are guided by your absurd logic, it turns out that the Caliber will be installed in addition to Granite, because the words about the dismantling of Granite are also not in your quote.

              In my quote there is no, and messages about. that Calibers are put in place of granite is more than enough. Google banned you? Ssylochku give? :)
  37. -1
    12 May 2019 07: 43
    Some kind of strange article. In the first half of this article, the author categorically carries some nonsense in air defense issues, and in the second half he tries to timidly correct this nonsense.

    In general, most likely, they will deliver to the TARKR the ship’s S-500, which is now being developed in full. And, perhaps, this is one of the reasons for the postponements, just as Polyment-Redoubt postponed the dates for Admiral Gorshkov.

    This is one of the main reasons why, in general, in modern times, TARKR is needed. This should be an air defense / missile ship capable of shooting down rockets in near space. Its shock capabilities are already in 2nd place.
  38. -2
    12 May 2019 08: 14
    Quote: MegaMarcel
    Definitely three modern ships are better than one old albeit modernized.
    Such large docks are not needed, such volumes of fuel and provisions are not needed ... When the ship is defeated, not 1000, but 300 sailors will die. Plus, to defeat 3 ships, at least three torpedoes are needed, and one is enough for one.

    You are mistaken at least three times.

    - Firstly, TARKR does not have large volumes of fuel, it’s an atomic cruiser (and, by the way, you don’t need to carry a tanker with it on long voyages, as for destroyers).

    - Secondly, without the same volumes of provisions, how are you going to carry out a long trip on destroyers? After all, the same number of missiles will have to send more destroyers, and accordingly there will only be more personnel, because it will be necessary to service several power plants.

    - thirdly, a torpedo that can drown a destroyer, TARKR - not drown, you have to spend a few torpedoes.
  39. 0
    12 May 2019 09: 28
    As Winnie the Pooh would say, both of these, and you can without bread
  40. -1
    12 May 2019 13: 44
    Andrey Nikolaevich, good day! With the past May 9 you. Article + clearly. But only when? How long will this endless modernization last? They were built from scratch three times faster than one unit is being modernized. And if he runs like a lone wolf, what is his use? He will need an appropriate squadron which He could lead, but it is not and is not expected, in the foreseeable future.
  41. 0
    12 May 2019 16: 15
    Three frigates can operate at three different points, and one cruiser only at one. It is better, of course, to have three cruisers, instead of three frigates, but ...
  42. -1
    12 May 2019 18: 30
    What could be better than Orlan? And the rest of the points of view is cut dough.
  43. 0
    12 May 2019 19: 05
    Thanks to the author for an interesting article as always. I have been closely following your work for a long time, and sincerely regret the absence of your new works on AI, the King of the Soviet Union and the Verb are truly excellent !!!, and the articles on this resource are extremely informative and interesting.
  44. +1
    12 May 2019 20: 09
    Three is always better than one. If in a nutshell.
    1. +1
      12 May 2019 20: 29
      Quote: Petrol cutter
      Three is always better than one. If in a nutshell.

      Well, if three penknives solve the question better than one tank ...
      1. 0
        12 May 2019 21: 06
        The main thing is that they do not become white elephants crying

        At Sevmash they say a lot of problems with him, but there is no money, but you hold on
      2. +1
        13 May 2019 00: 07
        Unquoted comparison. This is not some armored boats, but quite toothy, modern frigates.
        In general, you need to strive for serialization and unification of combat units of the fleet. This simplifies both operation and basing and repair. We now have one frigate, how many projects in the ranks, five, six? If you build ocean ships, then the 22350-M is quite an option (if there is a series, and not 2-3 pieces in 20 years).
        1. 0
          13 May 2019 08: 03
          Quote: Garris199
          We now have one frigate how many projects in the ranks, five, six?

          Two
          1. 0
            13 May 2019 09: 16
            Well, if you count with 1135 and 61 projects =)
            1. 0
              14 May 2019 22: 48
              22350, 11540, 11661, 1135, 11356, 61
              1. +1
                17 May 2019 20: 45
                Nuu 11661 is not a frigate, but I forgot about hawks
                1. 0
                  26 May 2019 01: 38
                  It is exported as a cheetah type frigate. Although of course the displacement is closer to the corvette.
      3. 0
        13 May 2019 20: 13
        Well, as practice shows, a tank is not difficult enough to destroy figuratively with a penknife. And if there are three such knives per tank, then I would not want to be in it ...
  45. 0
    13 May 2019 09: 48
    I'll try to think. The nuclear cruiser is already quite old, and while it will be modernized (with the speed of our shipyards), it will age even more. For the open sea, a lone atomic cruiser is also somehow wrong. It turns out that it is necessary to build three frigates, but with modified anti-submarine weapons (like 324-mm torpedoes with a short range of travel they do not inspire confidence) and hydroacoustics. They will be able to work in the near sea zone and, in addition to their air defense systems, will be able to be covered by coastal aviation.
  46. +1
    13 May 2019 10: 09
    It is sometimes necessary to think and analyze "on the fingers", but the very formulation of the question is hardly correct. In fact, which is more useful ... So, by analogy, a bottle of Armenian brandy or five bottles of vodka, or a hundred bottles of "fufiriks"? Modernization of an atomic cruiser is not only about getting a powerful combat unit, it is about preserving and gaining experience that cannot be bought overnight. If you have forgotten, remember how you had to cooperate with the Italians to start making your own cruisers, to design battleships. The ideas of the "mosquito fleet", which did not take root very much, are also useful to remember, weak arithmetic - to compare hundreds of torpedo boats with dozens of destroyers. Finally, it is better to upgrade a real nuclear-powered cruiser than to wait ten years for "three frigates", which are not yet a fact that they will be built at all. What Andrey thinks and analyzes is an indisputable plus.
  47. +1
    13 May 2019 17: 26
    Ships have a useful life, and it makes sense to renew it only when absolutely necessary.
    There is no urgent need for these ships, and you can live without them, which means you need to dispose of the old and build new ones, albeit not so large - but they will fulfill the assigned tasks.
    1. 0
      15 May 2019 22: 33
      There are no slipways and engines for new ships. Therefore, the modernization of Orlan has no alternative. Or 11442, or nothing. And many do not understand that Nakhimov is not just being repaired ... It is being rebuilt anew, leaving a set of hulls and part of the equipment. EVERYTHING has been dismantled there, except for the power plant. The interiors are being remodeled ... The ship will come out new, like a converted one from the cruiser Vikramaditya. And its service life will depend on the nuclear reactor.
  48. 0
    13 May 2019 22: 40
    Why can't you make a completely UNIVERSAL vertical launch launcher?
    1. 0
      15 May 2019 08: 52
      Too different missiles are launched from them. But the main difference between the Soviet (Russian) VPUs and the American ones is in the starting principle. We have it "mortar" (cold, the rocket engine is launched at an altitude), in the Americans - “hot” (the rocket is launched by its own engine or booster).
  49. 0
    17 May 2019 10: 17
    And for the country? What's more useful? For example, the transition of the fleet from liquid (R-29RM) to solid fuel (Bulava) reduced labor productivity (throw weight by 2-4 times) in the submarine fleet in terms of one sailor. This turned out to be more profitable for the fleet - the missiles are easier to operate, and more resources and "shoulder straps" are also required, and for the country there are 4 times more costs to achieve the same efficiency in terms of throw weight.
    I mean, the rather closed caste community of sailors somehow does not pay attention to the country's work for their ambitions. So in this article there is no comparison of the social cost of the life cycle of the weapons in question (construction is part of the life cycle, and not the main, but only the initial one).
  50. 0
    29 July 2019 19: 11
    What is more useful for the fleet: one nuclear cruiser or three frigates?

    3 submarines.
    1. 0
      11 September 2019 00: 03
      + 3 TARK + 36 FRIGATES and 3 aircraft carriers wouldn’t hurt to create such a group)))
  51. 0
    28 June 2022 14: 03
    There is an opinion that the complex works more or less decently only in “greenhouse” conditions, but at sea, during combat service, something constantly breaks down.


    That's what you're saying? request
    Russian weapons, on the contrary, are considered capable of working in the most negative conditions, an example of this is the AK.