The “Grand Fleet” of the USSR: scope and price

58 598 166
Thousands tanks, dozens of battleships. In the previous article, we focused on the fourth shipbuilding program of the USSR, adopted in 1936 and designed for the period 1937-1943. It was distinguished by two characteristic features: it was the first Soviet program for the construction of the "Big fleet"And ... the last program to create a" Big Fleet ", approved in the pre-war USSR.

How did it begin


As mentioned earlier, the reasons that prompted the leadership of the Country of the Soviets to begin creating the most powerful navy are quite understandable and logical. The country was in political isolation, and sea power was a powerful diplomatic argument, because no one could afford to ignore the political views of a first-class maritime power. In addition, the military industry seemed to have reached an acceptable level by 1936 and did not require multiple growth, and the second five-year plan was completed much more successfully than the first. In general, “above” it seemed that a large shipbuilding program was quite capable of us, and at the same time, the country's leadership experienced a real need for a powerful fleet.



Alas, as we now know, the capabilities of the domestic industry turned out to be extremely overvalued, and the construction of 533 warships with a total displacement over 1,3 million tons. For some 10 years it was completely beyond its power. Thus, the execution of the resolution of the USSR Council of People's Commissars (STO) No. OK-95ss “On the shipbuilding program for 1936” has “stalled” literally from the very beginning of its adoption.

This program itself was a common document, and provided for the construction of X-type battleships A and 8 type B battleships, 16 light cruisers, 20 leaders, 17 destroyers, 128 large, 90 medium and 164 small submarines. Its implementation was to be specified by the relevant resolutions of the Council of Labor and Defense (STO) under the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR, which set specific tasks for the People's Commissariat of Heavy Industry and other structures participating in the creation of the fleet for one or two years in advance. And so, the first such resolution was the 90 adopted on July 16, the document “On the Large Marine Shipbuilding Program”, which specified the procedure for creating the “Big Fleet” for the next 1936 of the year. According to him, in 2-1937. the shipbuilding industry had to lay the 38 battleship type "A", four - type "B", 4 light cruisers and leaders, 8 destroyers and 114 submarines. At the same time, all 123 battleships were to be operational already in 8 year!



It is interesting, although this does not apply to the topic of the article, that the SRT attached great importance to the unification of ships under construction. The battleships of projects "A" and "B" were still to be developed, and in the future, "B" was abandoned in favor of the ship of type "A", light cruisers were to be built according to the project "Kirov", the leaders - on the project 20I (the famous "blue cruiser "" Tashkent "), destroyers - project 7, submarines - type" K "of the XIV series, type" C "of the IX series, and" M "of the XII series as large, medium and small submarines, respectively.

It was smooth on paper ...


Alas, the reality turned out to be extremely far from the expectations of the Soviet leadership, because problems arose literally at every turn. So, for example, from the battleships planned for the construction of 8, 7 was supposed to be laid in 1937 and one more in the next 1938. However, in fact, only two ships of this class were built in the specified period: the “Soviet Union” was laid 15 July, and “Soviet Ukraine” - October 31 1938. The light cruisers were laid in half less than planned, even if “set off” the laid out 20 December 1936, “Maxim Gorky”. Not a single leader was laid: but for the destroyers, the tab in 1936 was as much as the 47 of the “sevens” deliberately surpassed and overwhelmed the capabilities of our industry. A number of these ships were put into operation as early as the war, and some were generally dismantled on the stocks. In general, no destroyer was laid at all in 1937, and in 1938 only 14 ships of this class can be counted, reloaded from the 7 project according to the improved 7 project.

On the one hand, of course, one would like to be surprised by the incompetence of the people responsible for developing the shipbuilding program and “linking” it with the domestic industry. Literally everything was missing, from metal and armor to artillery and turbines. But on the other hand, it should be understood that in addition to the incorrect assessment of the growth prospects of our industry, other factors also played a role, which were quite difficult to foresee initially.

For example, according to the program, it was intended to build type-A battleships with a standard displacement in 35 000 t. This decision was due to the desire to adhere to the existing international agreements regarding maritime arms race restrictions, although, strictly speaking, the USSR was not a participant in such contracts and had no obligations for them. At the same time, in the USSR for a long time no large warships were created or even designed. But, obviously, it was assumed that if the leading world powers have already limited the displacement of 35 battleships, thousand tons, then they know what they are doing, and the creation of balanced ships in such dimensions is quite possible.

However, it quickly became clear that the battleship with 406-mm guns, somehow effectively protected from the effects of artillery of its caliber, and at the same time developing a more or less acceptable speed, categorically does not want to be “rammed” into 35 000 t. So the initial design of the battleship of type “A” in the middle of 1937, was sent back for revision (like the battleship of type “B”), after which, as the RKKF’s requirements were met, the ship’s abruptly “crawled” upward displacement, quickly reaching 45 first, and then and 55-57 KT. But what does this mean for the core an engineering industry?

In 1936, the USSR had all the same 7 stocks, on which Tsarist Russia built its own battleships. At the same time, on the 4 Baltic stocks, on which, before the First World War, Izmail had built battle cruisers in 32 500 tons (true, this was normal, not standard displacement), the tab of battleships in 35 KT was not particularly difficult. Apparently, the same was true of the Black Sea slipways. But the increase in displacement of the battleships led to the fact that all of them turned out to be completely inadequate and began to require extensive upgrades. Moreover, the increase in displacement naturally led to an increase in mass and precipitation of the ship during launching, and it turned out that the new battleships simply do not have enough water area - it was necessary to carry out expensive dredging works ... Thus, even in cases where the problem was solved (in this case, permission to increase the displacement) could be so that it only entailed a whole “heap” of new difficulties.

More ships! More!


It would seem that, faced with an obvious failure, the leadership of the USSR would have to temper the appetites and return their shipbuilding programs to the limits of what is really achievable. However, nothing of the kind happened: since 1936, military shipbuilding planning proceeded along two parallel paths. Sailors, under the patronage of the People's Commissar of Defense K.E. Voroshilov formed more and more ambitious programs: for example, the “Plan for the construction of warships of the Naval Forces of the Red Army”, submitted to I.V. Stalin and V.M. Molotov, who at that time was the chairman of the SNK 7 September 1937, assumed the construction of 599 ships with a total displacement of 1,99 million tons! The corresponding figures for the previous program were surpassed by 12,3% and 52,2%, respectively. According to this document, it was planned to build 6 type A battleships, 14 B type, 2 aircraft carrier, 10 heavy and 22 light cruisers, 20 leaders and 144 destroyers, 375 submarines! The next iteration proposed in 1938 was significantly reduced by ships (424 units), but their total displacement remained at the same level - 1,9 mln. Tons. Finally, 14 June 1939, the People's Commissar of the Navy N.G. Kuznetsov submits to the SNK the monstrous “10-year plan for the construction of RKKF ships”, according to which the country needed to build 1948 ships of main classes and 696 small ships (torpedo boats, minesweepers, submarine hunters, etc.) before the inclusive 903. cumulative displacement over 3 million tons!

At the same time, such plans were approved by the leadership of the country, but ... they were not approved. Unfortunately, many lovers of naval stories misleading the phrase from the source to the source stating that the “10-year plan for the construction of RKKF ships” was approved by the People's Commissar of the Navy N.G. Kuznetsov. Nikolai Gerasimovich really endorsed this document, but you need to understand that his signature means only that the People's Commissar of the Navy agrees with this plan and recommends it for approval by higher authorities. But to approve it "for execution" N.G. Kuznetsov, of course, could not, because it was far beyond his authority. Approve documents of this kind could only STO, or, later, the Committee of Defense at SNK of the USSR, well, or the Council of People's Commissars. What to I.V. Stalin, he endorsed these programs, but also did nothing to turn them into a guide to action.

But then on the basis of what were warships laid at all? In essence, this was the case. All the above plans were, if I may say so, some kind of super-goal, which, of course, it would be great to achieve, someday, in a bright socialist future. And the actual construction of warships was carried out (and controlled) on the basis of annual plans, which were drawn up by the Navy Commissariat, agreed with the shipbuilding industry and approved by higher authorities. And these plans were much more realistic than the "software" hundreds of ships and millions of tons of displacement.

And what in practice?


Let us explain this with a simple example, namely: we quote the Decree of the Defense Committee at the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR No. XXUMXCC “On approval of the NKVMF order plan for shipbuilding, ship repair, parts and equipment for 21 g” In 1940 g it was planned to transfer to the fleet:

Cruisers - 3 units, including one project 26 and two - 26-bis;

Destroyers of destroyers - 1 units. project 38 "Leningrad";

Destroyers - 19 units, including 1 experimental, 4 project 7 and 14 - 7U;

Submarines - 39 units, including 4 large type “K” XIV series, one underwater mine layer “L” of series XIII bis, 14 medium type “C” series IX bis, 5 - medium type “U” X series, and finally , 15 small type "M" XII series - 15;

Minesweepers - 10 units, including 2 59 project, 2 58 project and 6 53 project.

As well as 39 smaller warships and boats. But this is to transfer from the previously started construction, but for us the most interesting are those that were planned to be laid in 1940. Here is a short list of them:

Battleships - 1 units, project 23;

Cruisers - 2 units, project 68;

Leaderboard - 4 units, 48 project;

Destroyers - 9 units 30 project;

Submarines - 32 units, including 10 medium type “C” series IX bis, 2 - medium type “U” X series, 13 small type “M” XII series and 7 - small type “M” XV series;

Minesweeper - 13 units 59 project;

And also 37 small warships and boats.

In other words, we see that according to the plan for 1940, there is even a slight decrease in the number of ships in the building. Yes, of course, one more (fourth) battleship of the 23 project is added, but it is expected to complete the construction of 3 cruisers, 19 destroyers and 39 PL, and only 2, 9 and 32 ships are laid, respectively.

In general, we can talk about this. The construction program of the “Big Fleet”, approved in 1936, was distinguished by clarity and clarity on the types of ships that should have been built, but otherwise consisted of only minuses. It was unbalanced, impossible for domestic industry, and the types of ships in its composition were not optimal. Already the first steps to implement this program in 1937. faced with insurmountable difficulties. Thus, it became clear that the country needed a completely different program, and it was not at all about “playing around” with the numbers in the “battleships” or “cruiser” columns. It was necessary to determine the future composition of the fleets, the performance characteristics of future ships, to bring them together with the capabilities of the Ministry of Industry, but not those that it currently has, and taking into account the build-up of the latter during the implementation of the shipbuilding program ... In general, if briefly, it turned out that not that execution, but even planning such a program is still too difficult for us. Nevertheless, the country's leadership believed that the ocean fleet of the USSR was necessary, which meant that it should be started to build - even gradually, and not in the quantity that the naval commanders and the leadership of the country would like to see.


Battleship project 23 "Soviet Ukraine"


And that is exactly what was done. I.V. Stalin fully encouraged the creation of "megalomaniac" military shipbuilding plans in 2-3 mln. Tonnes of aggregate displacement, because during their creation the national naval thought developed, the number of ships and their performance characteristics specified by the fleet, etc., but these the plans were essentially theoretical. But the real shipbuilding after errors 1937 g. Tried as much as possible to tie to the capabilities of our industry. But at the same time, the leadership of the USSR did not at all try to “stretch its legs” according to its clothes and set extremely difficult tasks for domestic shipbuilding, which often turned out to be on the verge of or even beyond its capabilities.

That is, I.V. Stalin, the Council of People's Commissars, etc. in fact, they did the following - on the one hand, they provided the domestic industry with resources for a significant expansion of its capabilities, but on the other hand, they presented it with the most difficult tasks that they had to cope with in a short time, and controlled their execution. I would like to note that this principle of “carrots and sticks” even today represents an excellent development strategy for any single enterprise or industry as a whole, and one can only regret that our modern management has abandoned these generally simple management principles.

Today they say a lot that the construction of battleships and heavy cruisers in the prewar period was a mistake, for a number of reasons, of which there are two main ones. Firstly, this construction was not provided with the capabilities of the industry - for example, there was not enough capacity for armor production, and, for example, the main caliber of the heavy cruisers Kronstadt and Sevastopol existed only in the form of wooden models even when the ships were already in full were built. And secondly, the creation of large surface ships led to the diversion of resources from more important, higher priority programs. After all, for example, the planned cost of the battleship of the project 23 exceeded 1,18 billion rubles. and you can be firmly convinced that if the battleships were completed, then in fact it would be significantly higher than the plan.

We will understand first with the first question. It is known that the battleship in those years was still the most complex engineering structure, perhaps the most complex of all that humanity created at that time. In a series of articles devoted to the T-34 tank, the author repeatedly referred to technical problems that accompanied the production of these combat vehicles and showed how much work had to be applied in order to start production of technically reliable tanks. It took years, but we are talking about a product weighing 26,5 tons - what can we say about a steel monster with a weight of 60 000 tons? In other words, it was not enough to design a perfect battleship and separate weapons systems and mechanisms for it: truly titanic efforts were needed to organize its creation, after all, thousands of tons and names of complex mechanisms had to be produced and supplied for its construction on time. The idea was to link the work of hundreds of different factories and industries into a single whole: neither tsarist Russia nor the USSR built anything of the kind, after all, the battleships of the Russian Empire were much smaller and simpler in design, but there was also more than 20 -year break in their construction ...

In general, there was no point in waiting for everything to be ready, and only then to begin the construction of heavy ships, it should be started as early as possible. Yes, it will, of course, be still unfinished, yes, a lot of “cones” will be “stuffed”, but then, when the technology of similar construction of the USSR is mastered, the creation of a powerful ocean fleet will no longer meet with particular obstacles. Therefore, when evaluating the laying of heavy artillery ships in the pre-war USSR, it should be remembered that the number of such ships (battleships of type “A”, “B”, heavy cruisers) in the 1936-1939 programs. fluctuated at the level of 24 - 31 units, but in fact in 1938-39. Only 6 of such ships were laid - four battleships of the 23 project and two heavy cruisers of the 69 project. And therefore, to say that their laying is premature is still impossible.


The same "Soviet Ukraine", but from a different angle


The second aspect of the pre-war construction of the fleet is its value. But even here, upon closer inspection, no catastrophe is visible, because the documents show that the expenses for the RKKF during the third five-year plan (1938-1942) were not at all amazing.

So how much did it cost?


To begin, consider the costs of capital construction in the interests of the Commissariats and Commissariats of the USSR

The “Grand Fleet” of the USSR: scope and price


As you can see, shipbuilding expenses did not stand out among the others, and were inferior as a people's commissariat aviationand the production of ammunition. As for the NKVMF, according to the plan, it really did receive a significant share, if we compare its expenses with the People’s Commissariat of Defense - in the total costs of these two commissariats, the fleet accounted for 31% of all investments according to the plan, but NPO is also aviation, and ground forces, etc. But, again, upon the fact of disbursement of funds, we see a different picture, the share of KVMF does not exceed 24%. Thus, the cost of capital construction (factories, enterprises, shipyards, military bases, etc.) of the fleet was not any outstanding, and if we look for opportunities for savings, we should pay attention to the NKVD - its capital construction costs are almost one and a half times exceeded NPOs and NKVMF combined!

Now let's look at the costs of building warships and maintaining the RKKF. In 1939, the country was in full swing creating an ocean fleet, as can be clearly seen from the table below:



While on 1 in January, 1939 had a 181 ship in the building, then at the beginning of 1940 there were already 203, including the 3 battleship and 2 heavy cruisers, and in just 1939 the 143 was laid ship total displacement of almost 227 thousand tons! This was much higher than the bookmarks of the past, 1938, when 89 of ships with a displacement of 159 389 t fell on the stocks, although these figures are quite impressive.

But not a single new construction ... RKKF also carried out large-scale programs for the repair and modernization of warships.



Well, now, of course, the burning question - how much did it all cost the country? In 1939, according to the plan of current military orders for all USSR commissariats, the total defense expenditure should have been almost 22 billion rubles, of which the fleet should have been marketable products from the commissariats worth 4,5 billion. That is, at the peak of the construction of the “Big Fleet”, the country had to spend just 20,35% of all its military spending on this very fleet!



In fact, the plan was not fulfilled, but the NPO failed the plan even more (for 3 billion rubles. The subdepartment for ammunition production was not enough, the Aviation Commissariat of Aviation did not receive production for 1 billion rubles, the rest in detail), but even so, the NKVMF received only 23,57 % of total commercial products. I must say that this ratio is quite typical for the entire period of 1938-40. During these years, the total budget allocations for the fleet amounted to 22,5 billion rubles, but this accounted for only 19,7% of the total defense expenditure of the USSR.

All this in combination suggests that even during the construction of the Big Fleet, the costs of the RKKF were not at all excessive for the country, and moreover - in fact, we can say that the fleet still remained the least funded branch of the Red Army troops! Of course, the rejection of the construction of ocean-going ships and a drastic reduction in shipbuilding programs could free up certain funds, but they are, in effect, lost against the background of what NPOs already consumed. And you need to understand that our armed forces to a certain extent did not have time to absorb the funds allocated for them - not for nothing that the plan for the receipt of marketable products over 17 billion rubles. turned out to be performed on less than 70%.



Of course, many critics say that the USSR embarked on the construction of the ocean fleet at an extremely inopportune time. They say how it was possible to lay the battleships in 1938, when as a result of the “Munich Agreement” Hitler was given over to the mercy of Czechoslovakia! Well, it’s obvious that the war is not far off ...

All this is true, but you need to understand that this very war - it is never far off. As a matter of fact, it was quite obvious that from the moment Hitler came to power, the short epoch of peace in Europe was coming to an end, then Italy’s aggression in Abyssinia ... In general, the world was constantly shaken by some kind of cataclysm, and postponed the construction of the fleet for a more peaceful time, means to postpone it forever. Of course, there comes a time when it is already becoming clear that war is about to come, and then it is necessary to stop the "long-playing" programs, redistributing resources in favor of the most vital - but this was exactly what was done in the USSR.

But only in more detail on this question we will stop already in the following article.

To be continued ...
166 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +7
    2 May 2019 06: 53
    These are the scales.
    1. +3
      2 May 2019 11: 10
      Thanks to the author, wonderful article!
    2. -5
      2 May 2019 12: 41
      [/ quote] The country was in political isolation, and sea power was a powerful diplomatic argument, because no one could afford to ignore the political views of a first-class sea power. [quote]


      Sheer nonsense. In what isolation in 1936. ? The isolation began in early 1940, after the attack on Finland. How will the US Congress not ignore the communist political views (after learning about the construction of hundreds of thousands of warships in the USSR), replace the US Constitution with the "Communist Party Manifesto"? Or approve of the corral of millions of people in the camps?

      The "Big Fleet" was built (according to the original plan) to dominate the sea, and not for some kind of mythical "display of the flag" or other nonsense. Another thing is that the plan failed, and the ships remaining in the plan were only suitable for showing the flag, instead of gaining dominance at sea.
      In the same way, 30 mechanized corps were created to gain dominance on land, by attacking, not fully focused, the enemy and his subsequent encirclement and defeat.

      Now for the money. To the capital construction of the NKVMF in 3,7 lard, it is necessary to add the costs for the construction of Molotovsk and the plant, which passed under the column "NKVD" (80.000 convicts), according to the plan - this is approx. 0,7 lard per year, and the cost of building K-na-A and a shipyard (an unknown number of lards, well, let it be half as much as at Molotovsk). In total, we get that, in terms of capital construction, the NKSP takes second place in the country, which is nonsense for such a land country as the USSR (unless, of course, you know the plans of the IVS). In addition, weapons and ammunition for the fleet passed through the NKV and NKB (and the turbines through the NKTP), but I do not have figures on the costs of capital construction in the interests of the fleet (perhaps they are not large).

      The same thing with defense costs, adding another lard to Molotovsk and K-na-A to the planned 4,473 lard, we will already receive a quarter of all the country's defense expenditures per year or a third of the expenses from NGOs.

      Meanwhile, the USSR, by the middle of 1939, critically lacked four large factories (four-wheel drive trucks, armored personnel carriers, tracked, not "ersatz" artillery tractors, anti-aircraft automatic guns). Which could well have been built with the money spent on the construction of Molotovsk and the shipbuilding plant in it.
      1. +1
        2 May 2019 13: 29
        For heavy trucks, armored personnel carriers and not "ersatz" tractors, an engine is needed, MD-23 (Koju) has been sawed since 1931, it was in 1939 that the engine passed state bench tests, but did not go into production. As a result, the Ufa Motor Company was sent to the NKAP.
        We began to look for a replacement and settled on the line of American GMC 3-71; 4-71; 6-71. It was not about money.
        1. 0
          2 May 2019 14: 47
          The engine passed state bench tests, but did not go into the series. As a result, the Ufa motor was given to the NKAP.

          From exactly the opposite)) Ufa was given to the NKAP and as a result Koju did not go into the series. They thought that more M105 (for LaGG-s)) is more necessary than tractors and trucks.
          1. 0
            2 May 2019 14: 53
            The Ufa motor was transferred from the NSM to the NKAP on July 22, 1940, i.e., somewhere a year after the MD-23 tests.
            1. +2
              2 May 2019 15: 17
              ... i.e. somewhere a year after the MD-23 tests.

              You are probably right about the message to Koju. In general, in the USSR, nothing is "brought" before mass production - there is technology, and even then there is nowhere to go))
          2. +1
            2 May 2019 23: 35
            Quote: anzar
            They thought that more M105 (for LaGG-s)) is more necessary than tractors and trucks.

            For fighters, the M-107 was needed - without it, they were obviously inferior to the German. But this motor did not go until the end of the war. So they were left without modern aircraft engines, and without tractors.
        2. +5
          3 May 2019 04: 04
          Quote: strannik1985
          For heavy trucks, armored personnel carriers and not "ersatz" tractors, an engine is needed, MD-23 (Koju) has been sawed since 1931, it was in 1939 that the engine passed state bench tests, but did not go into production. As a result, the Ufa Motor Company was sent to the NKAP.
          We began to look for a replacement and settled on the line of American GMC 3-71; 4-71; 6-71. It was not about money.

          No need to make a fetish from a diesel engine, for which the USSR would not have pulled fuel equipment in 1939.

          There was a very good gas engine named ZIS-5. His version of the ZIS-16 was quite suitable for all-wheel drive trucks, and the version of the ZIS-120 for the armored personnel carrier and another light BTT (the ZIS-5 itself for the artillery tractor).

          Those. one engine plant, could supply three conveyors for the assembly of articulated vehicles, armored personnel carriers and trucks. And such a megastore would cost a mere penny, compared with the cost of Molotovsk and the shipyard in it.
      2. +1
        2 May 2019 15: 02
        Quote: Jura 27
        Another thing is that the plan failed, and the ships remaining in the plan were only suitable for demonstrating the flag, instead of gaining dominance at sea.


        There was no failure as such, for this it is enough to read the speeches of V. M. Molotov (Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR in 1930-1941) about the construction of the Navy. He said that the USSR would be able to begin full-scale construction of large military ships in 1939-1940.
        The fleet construction program was most likely declarative in relation to the actions of the British after the disarmament conference, which they launched in 1935, and not only them.
        1. +3
          2 May 2019 21: 14
          The fleet construction program was most likely declarative in relation to the actions of the British

          In! Good "declarativeness" - with might and main they built "only" 6 LKs for 300 kt, it took a lot of labor, steel rolled... by bargaining. instead of buying more machines, trucks, or, say, equipment for chemical plants (gunpowder, explosives) or an oil refinery ... we bought unfinished cruiser and ordered towers for battleships ...
          1. +1
            3 May 2019 11: 04
            Quote: anzar
            In! Good "declarativeness" - with might and main they built "only" 6 LKs for 300 kt, it took a lot of labor, rolled steel.


            Could you please write the name of these 6 (six) battleships and where they were built.
            1. +2
              3 May 2019 14: 41
              Could you write the name of these 6 (six) battleships and where they were built.

              pr.23
              "Soviet Union" - Leningrad
              "Soviet Ukraine" - Nikolaev
              "Soviet Russia" - Molotovsk
              "Soviet Belarus" - Molotovsk
              pr. 69 "heavy cruisers")) in 40kt (!)
              "Kronstadt" - Leningrad
              "Sevastopol" - Nikolaev
              If you want to discuss what kind of battleship pr.69, i.e. 40kt and 305mm is not enough for you, then look at the definition in the Washington Treaty. A type can be called vsek- even the leader (of the proletariat)) hi
              1. +2
                3 May 2019 17: 00
                Quote: anzar
                If you want to discuss what kind of battleship pr.69, i.e. 40kt and 305mm is not enough for you, then look at the definition in the Washington Treaty.


                Thank you for reminding. Dear Anzar, I was more interested;

                with might and main built


                I think you have the opportunity to see how quickly the construction of these ships progressed. To announce the laying of a battleship or a heavy (linear) cruiser is one thing, the prestige of the state increases not only within the country but also abroad, but to begin systematic construction is quite another. We could not build ships as quickly as abroad. That is why I referred to V. M. Molotov, who spoke about this more than once in his speeches. In addition, at the time of laying of these ships, the design documentation had not yet been approved, and it is impossible to build ships according to sketches.

                ".....Many preparatory work that ensured the start of the construction of the mortgaged ship by this time was not completed, and some of them had not yet begun......" this concerns the construction of battleships.

                Therefore, the definition of "in full construction" does not fit.
                By 1944-1946, these ships apparently built, if not for the war, but the announcement of construction plans and bookmarks, at that time was declarative in nature, to enhance the status of the state.
                1. +3
                  3 May 2019 22: 06
                  Dear Anzar, I was more interested;
                  with might and main built

                  And why then they asked about names?)) Then we return to the beginning, and I was interested in your statement that "The fleet construction program had probably declarative nature ..."This is an unfounded and incorrect statement, although a share of ostentation is not only not excluded, but the organic, foreign policy part of the program eats (why build a fleet if no one knows about it and will not be afraid))
                  If you consider the number pledged ships (not only battleships, but consider only them), the resources spent on them, then there can be no talk of any "declarativeness".
                  Announce Bookmark battleship or heavy (linear) cruiser is one thing, the prestige of the state is increasing not only inside the country, but abroad, but to start planned construction This is completely different

                  Nevertheless, 6 battleships were built by VOVSU. If you don't like the term, please note that it means "serious", on the entire to be able "" as much as possible ", and not at all" quickly "," successfully ", etc. And what was built" bavno "," problem "does not mean" declarative "- you write yourself"We could not build ships as fast as abroad"
                  That is, this is not at all an excuse for those who "planned" it, who suffered from "dizziness from success", ON THE CONTRARY! At the same time, I do not at all go to the other extreme of the type "nothing should have been laid down" "if they did not build heavy ships, then they made 100500 T-34 and... The author refutes this (in my opinion, even too much)) I think that along with the important, they would have done other stupid things (if possible)))
                  That is, dear Igor, we are only talking about "a sense of proportion", need to cost but not the same 6! The author writes:
                  Yes, it will, of course, be still unfinished, yes, many "cones" will be "packed", but but then, when the technology of such construction of the USSR will be masteredcreating a powerful ocean fleet already ...

                  Should not the first industrial state spend a lot of resources and "stuff big shots" on so many "long-term construction"? Bigger than Great Britain! More than...
                  And in the conditions of the impending war, the USSR Council of People's Commissars issued a decree on October 19, 1940. where "about the plan of military shipbuilding for 1941" is said (re-distribution)
                  1. New bookmarks LC and TK ... do not produce ...
                  2. ... from among those under construction to focus construction on ...
                  a) the battleship "Sov. Russia" at factory # 402 in Molotovsk.
                  b) TC Kronstadt
                  c) shopping mall Sevastopol
                  Set the timing of launching ... 3Q. 1942 (TK) 1943 (LK)
                  Reasonable, you say? Yes, but if it was before! (others did not lay it down at all) And if the same decree did not continue ((( this:
                  6. Construction of the rest of the LC in 1941 to limit and set the next descent dates ...
                  LK Sov. union "- June 1943g (probably a typo. Probably talking about 44g. - this is for "all 9 months" wink later "priority ships.
                  LK Sov. Ukraine is the same
                  And only the construction of "Sov. Belorussia" should be suspended and the exposed metal dismantled.
                  Therefore, the definition of "in full construction" does not fit.

                  Suitable, just so much could, even "with might and main"))
                  So the dear colleague is like different things, trying to be in time ... What to do, the story is. "The past cannot be turned back and there is nothing sad", it is better to concentrate in the present, as others urge. In this connection I am oppressed by this, now again the Big (ocean) fleet is being built ... Again, as if" declaratively "... This is symptomatic!)) The first time the Russian Empire built (at the beginning of the 20th century), the second time the USSR began to build in the late 30s, the third time the USSR in the 80s (even built quite a lot)... I hope it won't end the same way...
                  hi
                  1. +1
                    4 May 2019 10: 42
                    Quote: anzar
                    "The program for building the fleet was most likely of a declarative nature ..." This is an unfounded and incorrect statement, although a share of ostentatiousness is not only not excluded, but an organic, foreign policy part of the program


                    Dear Anzar.
                    In this matter, one will have to turn to the foreign economic activity of the USSR. In 1929-1931, the Soviet Union managed not only to enter and gain a foothold in the oil market in Europe, but also to begin to supplant such companies as Standard, Shell and Anglo-Persian at the expense of the lower price, which caused very great discontent in England .
                    An analysis of the trade activities of the USSR was published and discussed. It was called Fighting the Red Trade Threat. Due to the supply of oil and fuel oil, the USSR received not only foreign currency, for example, the Italian government allowed the Soviet Union to periodically order ships, equipment and weapons for the Soviet Navy from Italian firms in the amount of no more than $ 5 million.
                    Attempts at negotiations with the British did not lead to anything; sea trade must be defended. This is one of the reasons. Therefore, at the initial stage it was more a declarative program.
                    Understanding what difficulties they would encounter during the construction of ships, the program of the year 1933, which was being implemented at that time, showed that the USSR in 1938 was negotiating with the United States on the construction of 2 battleships with a displacement of 35000 tons and armed with 9-406 mm guns. But they could not agree, the Americans themselves write about it.
                    That's why we had to do everything ourselves, and we know what came of it.
                    1. +1
                      4 May 2019 14: 16
                      Therefore, at the initial stage it was more a declarative program.

                      At the initial stage (35-36g) I agree, and then came the Spanish civilian, in which Italy ... and the sea communications of the USSR with the Republicans were threatened. Then it turned out that only declarativeness is not enough))
                      But they couldn’t agree, the Americans themselves write about it

                      I read about it, it's not entirely clear. At first, prices, but first of all, did not like the construction time (the risk ordered to be requisitioned from the beginning of the war), then the course towards a misunderstanding with Germany and the risk already paid in the USA to lose altogether ...
                      For this I had to do everything ourselves, what came of it, we know.

                      Yes alas.
        2. +2
          3 May 2019 04: 10
          [/ quote] He said that the full construction of large warships of the USSR could begin in 1939-1940. [quote]


          Yeah, and so the program was adopted in 1936, and the battleships were laid down in 1938 (according to the plan in 1937).

          Well, yes, the "declaration" on the construction of 24 battleships, against 5 English (new) ones, is good. In addition, the "declaration" was secret and the English were not supposed to know anything about it.
          1. +1
            3 May 2019 10: 45
            Quote: Jura 27
            Yeah, and so the program was adopted in 1936,


            If it’s not difficult, could you write the name of this program, just indicate its official name.

            according to plan in 1937


            Perhaps you are confusing it with the end of the project development. Look at the decisions made on the construction of battleships and heavy cruisers from 1938 to 1940.

            In addition, the "declaration" was secret and the Angles should not know anything about it.


            Read the speeches, reports from 1935, you will see all the "secrecy" of this program.
            1. 0
              4 May 2019 04: 18
              [/ quote] If it’s not difficult, could you write the name of this program, just indicate its official name. [quote]


              I am quoting the post, for those who have not read it: "Resolutions of the Council of People's Commissars (STO) of the USSR No. OK-95ss" On the program of marine shipbuilding for 1936 " "

              Two letters "ss" - need to decipher?
              1. +1
                4 May 2019 09: 45
                Quote: Jura 27
                "Resolutions of the Council of People's Commissars (STO) of the USSR No. OK-95ss" On the marine shipbuilding program for 1936 " "


                Dear Yuri.
                Thank you for the answer, but the fact is that this decision applies to the program adopted in 1933. I had in mind another decree determining the development of the USSR Navy.
                1. +1
                  4 May 2019 17: 52
                  [/ quote] that this decision applies to the program adopted in 1933. [quote]

                  The decree of 06.06.1936, according to the program of "large sea shipbuilding": 8 LCs of type "A" and 16 LCs of type "B", 4 of them of each type, were laid in 1937.
      3. +9
        2 May 2019 15: 32
        Quote: Jura 27
        Complete nonsense. In which insulation in 1936g. ?

        Yura, didn't you try to teach history at least at the level of Churchill's memoirs? Try it, by the way, it describes well how European countries treated the USSR, I generally keep quiet about Japan.
        The Soviet Union for France, Britain and the United States in the political sense was absolute zero, whose opinion interested no one.
        Quote: Jura 27
        Now for the money. To the capital construction of the NKVMF in 3,7 lard, it is necessary to add the cost of building Molotovsk and the plant

        This is truly sheer nonsense. There is no need to add anything, since all of this is fully taken into account in the 3,7 yard's figure - the costs for this or that Commissariat / Commissariat were formed as the sum of marketable products of other Commissariats / Commissariats produced in the interests of the Commissariat / Commissariat.
        1. +2
          2 May 2019 20: 18
          The Soviet Union for France, Britain and the United States in the political sense was absolute zero, whose opinion interested no one.


          there are two big differences between "you and me" and "we are not interested in him, but Churchill :)
          he "accepted Britain, claiming world hegemony and left a vassal to the United States," maybe there is something wrong with him?
          1. +4
            3 May 2019 09: 20
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            there are two big differences between "you and me" and "we are not interested in him, but Churchill :)

            Alas, he was exactly uninteresting. USSR, of course, not Churchill
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            he "accepted Britain, claiming world hegemony and left a vassal to the United States," maybe there is something wrong with him?

            With him, everything is so, because after the WWI, Britain was no longer any global hegemon, since it lost the key parameters of such - its industry was no longer advanced, and the fleet no longer dominated the seas. Churchill did the maximum - he provided decent care to Britain, then no one in his place would have done more
            1. 0
              3 May 2019 10: 52
              Alas, he was just uninteresting.

              belay
              so much so that a sanitary cordon was jabbed against him

              after WWII Britain


              let's start until WWI

              who there inflated popularity, demanding minimization of military expenses in the Asquith government, eh? maybe you shouldn’t write only one memoir :)
              1. +3
                3 May 2019 15: 25
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                so much so that a sanitary cordon was jabbed against him

                Andrew, this is an opinion, not a fact. Well, here I have huge doubts that Hitler was allowed to grow against the USSR, my opinion - in this way England balanced the domination of the French Armed Forces in Europe.
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                let's start before the WWI

                Let's not. Because it is obvious that you want to argue for the sake of a dispute, but I do not have time for this. There is a FACT - in spite of the buns that England extracted from its dominion of the seas, it lost the industrial race to both the USA and Germany, and Churchill here is really not at all sideways. And everything else is only a consequence of this.
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                who was fanning their popularity there, demanding in the government of Asquith to minimize military spending, eh?

                This, in your opinion, was before the FIRST WORLD? laughing And secondly, the level of military expenditures did not affect anything at all - England did not have money for a two-standard standard, it already had a hard time scraping equality with the United States
                1. +1
                  3 May 2019 16: 50
                  but I have huge doubts that Hitler was allowed to grow against the USSR,

                  this is a fool, the sanitary cordon is Poland and other borderlands - materiel, sir

                  This, in your opinion, was before the first world? laughing

                  Dear colleague, I think this time Wikipedia will be enough:
                  "In April 1908 Due to the sharply deteriorating state of health, Campbell-Bannerman becomes incapable of acting as prime minister, and a number of changes take place in the cabinet: Herbert Asquith, who served as Chancellor of the Treasury, becomes the head of government, his place is taken by David Lloyd George, the former Churchill received the post on April 12. Both Lloyd George and Churchill advocated cuts in government and, in particular, military spending. "
                  again, - the material part, sir

                  Something you have a rule of ten years with "We want 8" mixed up, shl, this is not the topic of this article, I will not go on)

                  zyzy. interesting article, thanks!
                  1. +2
                    3 May 2019 18: 13
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    it is clear to the fool

                    Well, that's good already :)))
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    sanitary cordon is Poland and other border areas - materiel, sir

                    Do you seriously believe that THIS was a cordon against the USSR? :))))) M-Dya, indeed, there is no way without hardware. But generally speaking, if you are considering such an option that, in the opinion of England itself, Poland could play the role of a counterbalance to the USSR ... This alone would indicate that the British Union of the USSR does not see it. That is, my initial statement is true, and you argue for the sake of argument :))))
                    1. 0
                      3 May 2019 18: 17
                      M-dya, indeed, there is no way without a materiel


                      colleague, would you consider for a start, for example, as of 1924 and 1932, the number of divisions that the USSR could really set up and the number of divisions that could be set up by the sanitary cordon in total
                      1. +4
                        4 May 2019 13: 49
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        colleague, would you count to start

                        Andrei, well, good already, eh? :))))
                        I'm talking about the fact that the USSR in 1936 g was not taken seriously on the world stage. You say that this is not the case, and that a certain sanitary cordon that they lined up testified to the seriousness of England’s relations with the USSR. And when I tell you that the equalization of the USSR and Poland, if there was one at all, testifies to the insignificance of the USSR in the eyes of England, you do ... what? Send me counting divisions in 1924 r! Seriously? :)))) What does 1924 or even 1932 g have to do with 1936 r being discussed? No
                        Whereupon, I ask you to stop the senseless altercation, which you obviously started solely out of a sense of contradiction.
                      2. -1
                        4 May 2019 16: 55
                        I tactfully hinted that the saniatron cordon: Poland + Romania + Czechoslovakia + Hungary + every little thing like Bulgaria and Lithuania = to the fig, including divisions
                        this "to the fig" in such a volume should have been already in 1924 (when it was filed) and worked until the second half of the 30s, and if so, it means he was interested in the USSR and was taken into account without stupid naval programs, although they tried not to talk to him
                        equalization of the USSR and Poland

                        I understand that the holidays, but you overworked
                        according to the same England, Poland could play the role of a counterweight to the USSR.

                        don't bullshit hurt her

                        Learn the biography of Churchill, consider the divisions.
                        Then hi
                      3. +2
                        4 May 2019 19: 40
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I tactfully hinted that the saniatron cordon: Poland + Romania + Czechoslovakia + Hungary + every little thing like Bulgaria and Lithuania = to the fig, including divisions

                        Charming :)))) Now you also included Czechoslovakia there :))) And Hungary :))) And all this England was preparing as a cordon for the USSR laughing
                        Yes, indeed,
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        don't bullshit hurt her
                      4. -3
                        4 May 2019 19: 42
                        We read Wiki (there is a minimum of information):

                        Superiority in this is attributed to Italian Prime Minister Vittorio Orlando, who declared at a meeting of prime ministers at the Versailles Conference on January 21, 1919 [4]: ​​Usually, a sanitary cordon is established to stop the spread of the epidemic. If we take the same measures against the spread of Bolshevism, he could be defeated, because to isolate it means to win.
                        This idea was further supported by the Chairman of the Council of Ministers of France, Georges Clemenceau: in March 1919 he urged the newly created states bordering the RSFSR to form an anti-Russian defensive alliance to isolate Europe from the threat of the spread of communism and the export of revolution. The main task of the created “sanitary cordon” was the complete political and economic isolation of Soviet Russia [5], as well as the prevention of cooperation between Germany and Russia [6] [7].
                        Historians have no consensus as to which countries were part of the “sanitary cordon”; various sources mention Finland [8] [1], Estonia [8] [1], Latvia [8] [1], Lithuania [1], Poland [8], Czechoslovakia [9], Hungary [10], Romania [ 9], Bulgaria [11], Yugoslavia [9]. Some researchers believe that Hungary, Finland and the Baltic states were not included in the "cordon" system[7].
                        The rest, therefore, came in for sure)

                        draining counted

                        As for the minuses: would you be a sailor - would you put it in the edge and knock out your teeth?
                      5. +2
                        4 May 2019 20: 19
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        We read Wiki (there is a minimum of information here

                        Read
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        The championship is attributed to Italian Prime Minister Vittorio Orlando, who announced 21 in January 1919.

                        What does 1919 g have to do with 1936 g?
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        In the future, this idea was supported by the Chairman of the Council of Ministers of France, Georges Clemenceau: in March 1919

                        What does 1936 g have to do with 1919?
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        He urged the newly created states bordering the RSFSR to form an anti-Russian defensive alliance in order to isolate Europe from the threat of the spread of communism and the export of revolution.

                        Where is this union between Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania, and every little thing like Bulgaria and Lithuania mentioned in 1936?
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Historians have no consensus about which countries

                        In which year? :))))))) 1919. ONE THOUSAND NINE NINE NINETEEN YEARS.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        draining counted

                        Yes, Andrei, so epically you have not merged even once. Same it is necessary to manage - to confuse 1919 th and 1936 years! To confuse the intentions (union of states) with their actual implementation!
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        As for the minuses: would you be a sailor - would you put it in the edge and knock out your teeth?

                        But for this - just a minus, personally from me
                      6. -1
                        4 May 2019 20: 22
                        It is necessary to manage - to mix up the 1919th and 1936 years!


                        I did not confuse. You have no arguments, never had and never will. Clear.
                        Only distort today the words of others and put cons. Fu, how not ashamed.

                        But for this - just a minus, personally from me


                        True eyes hurts?
                      7. +1
                        4 May 2019 21: 07
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I did not confuse. You have no arguments, never have been and never will.

                        And it started blah blah blah. Andrew, it’s you and I who were not taken to prove that England recognized the USSR in 1936. And it’s not my fault that all that was enough for you was to present data on the 1919 sanitary cordon of the year :))) My argument is presented in the article and In the comments, I refer to the same Churchill, we have many sources describing the USSR’s attempts to revive the Entente or create a different European security system, and the USSR was chronically ignored.
                        And where is your argument? :)))
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        True eyes hurts?

                        Andrey, if you saw me, you would understand that, in order to knock out someone's teeth, it is not at all necessary to put him "in frustration" :)))))
                      8. 0
                        4 May 2019 21: 11
                        And it’s not my fault that all that was enough for you was to provide data on the 1919 sanitary cordon :)))


                        Just distort the words of others today and put the cons. Fu, how not ashamed.

                        Okay. Stop. I apologize for the inappropriate harshness.
                      9. 0
                        4 May 2019 20: 17
                        that a sanatorium cordon: Poland + Romania + Czechoslovakia + Hungary + every little thing like Bulgaria and Lithuania = to fig, including divisions

                        What else will you say Persia with Afghans or Tibet forgot to add to the "cordon"?)))
                        This is a false statement, the story of Interbelum is murky for you)) In these countries then little in common between themselves.
                        And the number of divisions ... I remember one owl. activist (Tukhachevsky) was very afraid in 31g. that Poland (alone!) will buy Vickers 6t and immediately attack the USSR ...
                        "Cordon" still existed, but French, and not against the USSR, but against Germany Hungary and Bulgaria. (so as not to think ...) Poland was considered as deputy Russia in the Entente and received quite a few fr. weapons. "Little Entente" - Greece, Yugoslavia and Romania, guarded Bulgaria, at whose expense they got hold of the lands. And the last two, along with Czechoslovakia, did the same against Hungary.
                        To make it easier for you to understand these differences, look at what happened to your chosen powers at the beginning of WWII (who got where))
                        Wrong "fuse"))) teach history.
                      10. 0
                        4 May 2019 20: 25
                        and not against the USSR, but against Germany

                        We read for a start Wiki:
                        “The concept of a cordon sanitaire has become an important element in the organization of the Versailles-Washington system of international relations. US Secretary of State, Nobel Peace Prize laureate Henry Kissinger, in his book“ Diplomacy ”, for example, notes that thanks to Versailles,“ Russia was torn away from Europe by revolutionary drama and “ a cordon sanitaire of “small Eastern European states” [13] ”.

                        "The main task of the created" cordon sanitaire "was the complete political and economic isolation of Soviet Russia [5], as well as prevention of cooperation between Germany and Russia[6] [7] ".

                        hi
                      11. 0
                        4 May 2019 21: 08
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        "The main task of the created" cordon sanitaire "was the complete political and economic isolation of Soviet Russia [5], as well as the prevention of cooperation between Germany and Russia

                        Moreover, both of them failed miserably in 30-s, or more precisely, even at the end of 20-s and absolutely had no meaning in the 1936 g we are discussing.
                      12. 0
                        4 May 2019 22: 27
                        We read for a start Wiki:

                        It should be read only "with understanding", it is suitable for reference, but not for "initial training". Because everyone writes there, incl. like you and me))) Here is your quote
                        US Secretary of State, Nobel Peace Prize laureate Henry Kissinger, in his book Diplomacy, for example, notes that thanks to Versailles “Russia was torn from Europe revolutionary drama..

                        T. according to your quote, the revolution in Russia is a consequence of Versailles))
                        and the "cordon sanitaire" of small Eastern European states "[13]".

                        as well as seas ...)) It's just geography
                        as well as preventing cooperation between Germany and Russia
                        This only Kissinger's opinion. Others ... But how is it to contradict the fact that the "cordon" - the small Entente - is chiefly against Germany?
                      13. 0
                        4 May 2019 22: 44
                        everything is written there, incl. such as you and me)))

                        and even worse

                        I do not argue that the "cordon sanitaire" is against Germany, but also against Russia (I would say against both of them at once)
                        I do not argue that the "cordon sanitaire" is a complex and contradictory thing, of variable composition, etc. etc.
                        I just noticed that NEVER Britain ignored 1/6 of the land and no country could ignore, even in the 20s
                        another thing is that the recognition of the USSR as a "Great Power" (more precisely than a "great power") came only in the second half of the 30s, and before that the USSR was considered roughly equivalent to a "cordon sanitaire" in aggregate or even somewhat weaker (devil that I write like "all of Eastern Europe", and some who specifically suck out of this type "USSR = one Poland", etc., etc.)
                        The "cordon sanitaire" collapsed, IMHO, when the realization came that the USSR, and even with the Third Reich, not now, so in two years, they would tear it to shreds and swallow

                        yes, and most importantly, no "naval programs of the Country of Soviets" have anything to do with it, since the status of "Great Power" was given by economic development, the land army and the air force
        2. 0
          3 May 2019 04: 26
          [/ quote] Jura, did you try to study history at least at the level of Churchill's memoirs? Try it, by the way, he describes well how European countries related to the USSR, I generally am silent about Japan.
          The Soviet Union for France, England and the United States in the political sense was an absolute zero, whose opinion did not interest anyone. [Quote]


          It is definitely useless for you to read memoirs; you do not understand the meaning of what you read. The USSR was in political isolation and was not in economic isolation (with some exceptions) until the end of 1939. And no stopitsottishch battleships would not lead the USSR out of political isolation - or do you think that if the USSR had a bunch of battleships, then Churchill would join the Communist Party and would welcome the comrade with warmth. Yezhov and Beria? The whole West would be even more wary of the USSR with new battleships, for a weakly armed communist is one thing, but an armed commie with the idea of ​​a world revolution is a completely different thing. And the last, it is necessary to spread rot beyond measure than the first.

          Considered say in 3,7 lard? Proof, let's! According to my information, the financing of Molotovsk and the plant went through the Gulag of the NKVD.
          And according to the logic, it turns out that the barracks and the prickle for the convicts cost a lot, already at 17,5 lard a year.
          1. 0
            3 May 2019 09: 05
            Quote: Jura 27
            It’s useless for you to read your memoirs, you don’t understand the meaning of what you read. The USSR was in political isolation and was not in economic isolation

            Yura, do you need to talk about this if you are not able to master the format of an Internet article? I have it written in Russian
            Quote: Jura 27
            And no stoppers of battleships would have brought the USSR out of political isolation, - or do you think that if the USSR had a lot of battleships, then Churchill would join the Communist Party and would cordially accept that. Yezhov and Beria?

            Of course :))) The thing is that neither Britain nor the United States could ignore the position of the powers with a strong navy, which could threaten their interests - or, on the contrary, help protect them, depending on which alliance the USSR joins. What, even this is not clear?
            Quote: Jura 27
            Included say in 3,7 lard?

            Proof is the document that lists the expenses for the people's commissariats, i.e. the Certificate of the Defense Committee under the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR "Main indicators for the fulfillment of the plan for current military orders for 1939" and the Certificate of the Mobilization Department of the State Planning Committee of the USSR "On the progress of the fulfillment of the plan for the third five-year plan for capital construction by the people's commissariats of the defense industry and defense." where, by the way, 3,7 yards are divided for the People's Commissariat of the Navy and 4,3 yards for the People's Commissariat of Shipbuilding.
            Do you want to refute - no question, let's align the 17 yards of the NKVD, consider whether there was capital construction in the interests of the fleet, and ground forces
            1. 0
              4 May 2019 05: 21
              [/ quote] The fact is that neither England nor the United States could ignore the position of a power with a strong navy, which could threaten their interests [quote]

              They could and really did, they did not care about the fleet of the USSR (in the sense that they would not refuse their principles and interests, in the extreme case, they would increase the laying of their ships). For example, the USA completely ignored the position of Japan (with its fleet!) In 41g and even presented it with an actual ultimatum.

              Your proofs do not roll. The first is about nothing at all. The second confirms my thoughts. For example: capex for NKSP on average approx. 0,86 lard (4,3 lard for a five-year plan). And the cost of building only one Molotovsk plant, according to plan, 0,7 lard per year. Those. the capital construction of all other shipbuilding factories (including the Komsomolsky shipbuilding, armored Mariupol and Izhora, huge shipbuilding), remains on average, only 0,16 lard per year. What is full anril.
              1. +1
                4 May 2019 14: 02
                Quote: Jura 27
                Could and really did it

                Well, just a new word in historical science :))) Actually, neither the United States nor Britain could ignore the same Japan, France or Italy, which had a strong fleet.
                Quote: Jura 27
                For example, the United States completely ignored the position of Japan (with its fleet!) On 41.

                Yur, would you go to teach materiel. They ignored Japan, yeah. This is the United States, turned on the Pacific strategy against Japan :))))
                Quote: Jura 27
                Your proofs are not rolling. The first is about anything. The second confirms my thoughts.

                The first shows the volume cap. costs for shipbuilding and NKVMF. They can not confirm your thoughts, due to the fact that the link is a document, and you are absurd.
                Quote: Jura 27
                For example: capital expenditures on the NKSP on average about xNUMX lard (0,86 lard according to the plan for the five-year period). And the cost of building only one Molotovsk with the plant, according to plan, 4,3 lard per year.

                Documents in the studio. About 700 million per year.
                Quote: Jura 27
                Those. on the capital construction of all the other shipbuilding plants

                Yura, you, as always, mixed different things in one bottle. That is why I offered you to find a transcript of the capital expenditures of the NKVD.
                There is a construction of production facilities. And there is - the construction of supporting structures, such as the expansion of the same Molotovsk from the size of the village to a small town. So, such "urban" construction was carried out both in the interests of the shipbuilding industry and the rest of the industry. And if you want to compare such costs, then you should not get the costs of the NKVD for Molotovsk (if they are there at all), add them to the NKVMF and compare them with the capex of the NCO, but take 17 billion of the NKVD, decompose this capital construction into three categories:
                1) Refers to the sudprom and NKVMF
                2) Refers to NPO
                3) Neither 1 nor 2 refers to
                add these costs to the NKVMF and NCOs and then compare. And without these numbers, all your statements fall into the category of "yashcheta" and the reading public is decidedly uninteresting
                1. +1
                  4 May 2019 17: 42
                  [/ quote] Well, just a new word in historical science :))) In fact, neither the USA nor England could ignore the same Japan, France or Italy, which had a strong fleet. [quote]


                  It’s just that you don’t know the story, Japan is presented with an actual ultimatum, and France too. Despite all their strong fleets. Learn the materiel before writing nonsense.

                  "The first shows the volume cap. costs for shipbuilding and NKVMF. They can not confirm your thoughts, due to the fact that the link is a document, and you are absurd."
                  - The main thing is that the dock does not confirm your words, which I wrote about.

                  "Documents in the studio. About 700 million per year."
                  - the well-known book of Vasioliev, p. 100, the words of Frinovsky.

                  "[bThis is why I suggested you find a decoding of capital expenditures through the NKVD.] [/ b]"
                  - why should I look for them, so I see that the cost of building wooden barracks for convicts cannot be several times higher than the cost of building and equipping complex aircraft and ammunition plants, and even combined.

                  "So, such "urban" construction was carried out both in the interests of shipbuilding and the rest of the industry."
                  - Teach the materiel: there was no industry in Molotov except Sudoprom and since 1938, the whole gulag was built by the NKVD. Accordingly, funding went through the NKVD. The NKVMF had other contractors (listed in the first dock), so he financed them.

                  And in general, for the cost of Molotovsk with the plant (2,37 Lard rubles), you could build a bunch of car factories and still have money left, for example, GAZ cost only 0,27 Lard, and ZIS, in general, a penny - 0,1 Lard . And without trucks, the army was deprived of supplies and mobility, incurring enormous excessive losses in people and equipment, the benefit of large Lend-Lease deliveries, the situation was corrected in the second half of the war.
                  1. +1
                    4 May 2019 20: 10
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    You just do not know the story, Japan is given an actual ultimatum, France too

                    I know :))) You - no. Naturally, in the relations between countries sometimes the moment comes when they decide to war with each other, and then ultimatums are rejected. But this does not mean closely that no one counts with a country whose ultimatum was rejected.
                    That is, you do not see the emphasis of many years of US efforts to compete with Japan, the deployment of the United States of the most powerful Pacific Fleet, etc. etc. Hell’s ultimatum managed to get into your field of vision only :))) Well, this only shows your inability to cover the whole picture, but not that the US ignored Japan
                    Generally speaking, the delusionalness of your statements just beats all records. Alexander also rejected Napoleon’s ultimatum (joining the continental blockade not for fear but for conscience), in your opinion, this means that Alexander ignored Napoleon :)))
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    book Vasioliev, known to you, p. 100, words of Frinovsky

                    Yura IT is not a document, as Frinovsky doesn’t say that the funding went through the NKVD. But in general ... We read Vasiliev
                    In January 1939, the People's Commissar of the Navy M.P. Frinovsky reported to the government that the planned "deadline for the completion of Plant No. 402 should be considered missed": 0,7 billion rubles had to be spent annually, which was unrealistic, and he proposed measures to speed up and reduce the cost of construction (refusal to build small ships at the plant, reduction in the number of workshops).

                    In general, Yura says - you need to master 0,7 billion, and Frinovsky - that this is unrealistic. Who to believe? :))))
                    Yura, strain yourself and read Vasiliev. Well, not everything. Let's start on the 99 page, and ok, let's finish on 100, we won't tire you out. What can we read about Molotovsk and the plant?
                    Another 5 March 1936, the Politburo of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) approved the creation of "... a large military shipbuilding plant in the region of Arkhangelsk, the volume is much larger than the Nikolayevsky plant. Marty, but in type it is quite modern, like Komsomolsk. ”

                    1936 year
                    In April 1936, the commission’s proposals were approved by GL. Pyatakov, the first deputy of the People's Commissar of Heavy Industry G.K. Ordzhonikidze, and presented to the service station, which approved 31 in May, “Design Task for the Arkhangelsk Plant,” and adopted a resolution on its construction.

                    That is, the decision was made in 1936. Not by someone there, but the service station
                    The first builders arrived on the site already 18 June 1936, forming the village of Sudostroy. Construction of most major facilities began in 1937.

                    That is, it began to build it in 1936 g!
                    Yur, and now please answer the question, why are you ALL the costs of the plant and the city that was planned for construction during the 2 5th year plan, which began to be built during the 2 5th year plan, and which, naturally, was financed from the 2 5th year fund - how did you manage to thrust it in full into the 3 5th year plan? laughing
                    And now he reads Vasilyev ATTENTIVELY and see that both the original plan and the plant and the city should be handed over to 1941. Started at 1936. Total costs were to sign for 5 years of which 3 of the year - in the 2 5th year.
                    How much did the plant cost? 2,37 billion. Divide by 5 years = 474 million. Totally 3 million * 474 = 3 1 million was to be mastered for the 422 five-year period.
                    A curtain.
                    Congratulations, Yura, you once again raised a tsunami in a cup of water
                    1. 0
                      5 May 2019 07: 13
                      [/ quote] But this does not mean close to the fact that no one counts with the country whose ultimatum has been rejected. [quote]


                      So, back to the beginning: even ultimatums were presented to countries with strong fleets, not to mention political isolation, since it’s impossible to break through political isolation with any number of battleships (even with the strategic nuclear forces, the Russian Federation is in political isolation with respect to demstrans), neither the USA nor the World Bank have rushed to embrace Stalin, if the latter had at least 20, at least 30 battleships. Only suspicion would increase in relation to the country where they talk about the world revolution. There was no economic isolation, the USSR-without any battleships they sold anything (with rare exceptions), sl-but battleships are not needed here, from the word at all. It remains, only two options: the first - domination of the sea, the second, - Stalin was insane, thinking that the battleships would force the bourgeois to kiss him.

                      You are an economist, but you don’t understand simple things: 1936, only the beginning of construction, people just arrived, the volume of work performed is not very large; 1937 - the volume of work was increased, but it is extremely insufficient, hence the decision to catch up with the convicts and transfer the construction to the Gulug in 1938, and because for two years, a very small amount of work was done, then Frinovsky writes that now it is necessary to master it in order to be in time by 1941 at 0,7 lard per year, and only 2,1 lard for three years, a sla for 36-37gg. mastered only 0,27 lard.

                      There is such a book "History of the Stalinist Gulag. Late 1920s - first half of 1950s. Collection of documents in 7 volumes. Volume 3. The Economy of the Gulag" VD (through the bank, of course) and that the construction of No. 401 was carried out by the GULAG.
                  2. +1
                    4 May 2019 20: 57
                    https://cyberleninka.ru/article/v/ekonomicheskaya-deyatelnost-nkvd-sssr-nakanune-i-v-gody-velikoy-otechestvennoy-voyny-struktura-proizvodstvennye-parametry
                  3. +1
                    5 May 2019 20: 35
                    At the expense of the cost of car factories - you need to understand the difference between the gold dime, the values ​​in which are given here, and the Soviet ruble. The ratio of 1930 chervonets to the inner ruble of 1937 is 4,4. According to my data, only the 1929 agreement on the reconstruction of AMO to a capacity of 25000 am / g was worth 87 million chervonets, that is, 380 million in 1937 prices. But the reconstruction of the ZIS already continued, up to 75000 am / year. In general, VMS cost at least a billion rubles, GAZ only under a contract with Ford 1,2 billion rubles. And the costs only for the purchase of equipment abroad were and then, on the Motor-2 workshop for the production of GAZ-11 engines, for the development of the production of CV joints before the war ...
                    And for car factories, it is also necessary to build housing, urban infrastructure, schools and hospitals.
                    У Jura27 disembodied elves work on them.
                    1. 0
                      6 May 2019 08: 13
                      Quote: Potter
                      At the expense of the cost of car factories - you need to understand the difference between the gold dime, the values ​​in which are given here, and the Soviet ruble. The ratio of 1930 chervonets to the inner ruble of 1937 is 4,4. According to my data, only the 1929 agreement on the reconstruction of AMO to a capacity of 25000 am / g was worth 87 million chervonets, that is, 380 million in 1937 prices. But the reconstruction of the ZIS already continued, up to 75000 am / year. In general, VMS cost at least a billion rubles, GAZ only under a contract with Ford 1,2 billion rubles. And the costs only for the purchase of equipment abroad were and then, on the Motor-2 workshop for the production of GAZ-11 engines, for the development of the production of CV joints before the war ...
                      And for car factories, it is also necessary to build housing, urban infrastructure, schools and hospitals.
                      У Jura27 disembodied elves work on them.

                      I gave you the cost of DOS. GAZ and ZIS funds as of 01.01.1935. Naturally not in gold pieces.
                      Does it make a difference to build a city in the far north or dormitories for some workers in Moscow or another large city?
              2. 0
                4 May 2019 19: 12
                The author simply does not understand the simple truth:

                Victorian England could score to a certain extent on Bismarck, since he didn’t have a fleet and colonies from the word at all ... but when Tirpitz was going to massively slash both of them - that's another matter
                The construction of the fleet in the USSR would certainly be perceived by Britain and the USA as a direct challenge - we are losing potential albeit not even allies, but at least people with whom we can communicate and trade under certain circumstances, while weakening due to the dispersion of resources on the eve of a decisive deadly battle land with the Third Reich

                "And the Cossack is sent!" (from) wassat
        3. +2
          3 May 2019 18: 07
          This is despite the fact that, in fact, almost all heavy industry was designed and built with the most active American participation.
          The USA during the so-called "Great Depression" followed the path of socialization.
      4. +5
        2 May 2019 20: 13
        Meanwhile, the USSR, by mid-1939, was critically lacking


        anti-tank rifle factory
        factory for the production of normal armor-piercing shells
        factory for the production of additional one and a half tritons
        gasoline production plant
        plant for the production of radio stations and radars
        telephone factory

        and more clouds of factories producing a lot of things

        is nonsense for such a land country


        really crazy
        1. 0
          2 May 2019 20: 45
          For all this, except for Gas-AA, ZIS-5 and telephones, we need samples ready for serial production.
          1. 0
            2 May 2019 20: 59
            I know, there were tremendous difficulties with the same gasoline
            I know that the 14,5 mm cartridges for the PTR finished off only for the war

            well, at least they would have blasted them with shells and arranged 45 horses for each)
            1. +1
              2 May 2019 21: 02
              For subcaliber, you need tungsten, a 45-mm caliber armor-piercing pierced 40 mm of armor at 30 angles from 150 meters.
              1. +2
                2 May 2019 21: 10
                everything is better than a battleship)
            2. 0
              3 May 2019 16: 10
              demagogy again ...
              1. 0
                3 May 2019 16: 55
                demagogy again ...


                good afternoon, you have already brought 100% continuity proof for 305 mm shells ... "Glory"? tongue
                1. 0
                  3 May 2019 17: 15
                  louder laugh, louder.

                  the mention of 100% of the shell bursts during the shelling of Sveaborg is more than enough.
                  And the fact that the shells fundamentally changed, first switching to black powder (yes, laugh louder, louder, black powder, imagine), and only later to TNT, is, in my opinion, proof.

                  Moreover, the proceedings and changes were quite a lot. Several versions about the causes of the bombings. But you laugh, laugh --- it’s so funny.
                  But the shells from the Nebogatov Squadron exploded - but from the 2nd TOE --- no.

                  And "proofs"... Well, it's enough for a smart person to just tell him -- and he himself will go and look for and find out. Well, as for citizens like you... citizens like you, no one has been able to prove anything yet.
                  1. 0
                    3 May 2019 17: 22
                    why, here Comrade corrected me with Kostenko - I immediately agreed

                    but you - well, how to say, you would go to teach the materiel, then come talk about the career of Anton Frantsevich
                    1. 0
                      3 May 2019 22: 45
                      Of course, you will excuse me, but you are not at all interesting to me. So you can save traffic
                      1. 0
                        3 May 2019 23: 13
                        All the best, but ... read about Anton Frantsevich’s career, for self-development
                        hi
      5. 0
        4 May 2019 21: 04
        When in 1554 on the slipway, organized in the never-held tower workshop of the NSR, our first atomic submarine Leninsky Komsomol was laid - that was STALIN’s prediction! I leave the identity of the author of the comment outside the brackets - the country was terribly lacked in the Second World War, it was created in Soviet times, and the fleet is terribly lacking now. The one who does not understand this is the enemy of a country called Russia.
      6. 0
        5 May 2019 17: 04
        By mid-1939 All-wheel drive trucks were created, later tested and adopted: ZIS-32 and ZIS-36 at the ZIS, GAZ-33 and GAZ-63 at GAZ. In addition, passenger GAZ-61 4 modifications, later, in 1941, the GAZ-64 jeep. The production was adjusted with difficulty due to difficulties with the manufacturing technology of CV joints. About 200 ZIS-32s were released at the ZIS before evacuation. At GAZ, the MOTOR-2 workshop, which has already begun production of GAZ-11 engines, was given to the NKAP for aircraft engines. Could collect only 240 GAZ-61.
        The military did not require armored personnel carriers. Here mr dean Jura 27 smarter than the military with their afterlife.
        To produce artillery tractors Voroshilovets and Stalinets, normal tracked heavy tractors, factories were built in the Volga-Ural region for 2500 and 10000 vehicles per year, respectively.
        Just as mastered the production of HF at ChTZ, T-34 at STZ, a factory was built under the HF in Gorky and for the T-50 in Kolomna.
        In 1939 there was no anti-aircraft machine gun suitable for mass production and reliable. The 61-K assault rifle, a copy of Bofors for a 37mm caliber, was only created and tested. Then with difficulty mastered in a series at the existing art factory.
        But the Molotov and Amur factories, well, or some others at open sea theaters, would have to be urgently built in the early 1950s for the construction of nuclear submarines, with which in this case a significant delay and lag would inevitably come from the states.
        1. 0
          6 May 2019 08: 31
          Quote: Potter
          By mid-1939 All-wheel drive trucks were created, later tested and adopted: ZIS-32 and ZIS-36 at the ZIS, GAZ-33 and GAZ-63 at GAZ. In addition, passenger GAZ-61 4 modifications, later, in 1941, the GAZ-64 jeep. The production was adjusted with difficulty due to difficulties with the manufacturing technology of CV joints. About 200 ZIS-32s were released at the ZIS before evacuation. At GAZ, the MOTOR-2 workshop, which has already begun production of GAZ-11 engines, was given to the NKAP for aircraft engines. Could collect only 240 GAZ-61.
          The military did not require armored personnel carriers. Here mr dean Jura 27 smarter than the military with their afterlife.
          To produce artillery tractors Voroshilovets and Stalinets, normal tracked heavy tractors, factories were built in the Volga-Ural region for 2500 and 10000 vehicles per year, respectively.
          Just as mastered the production of HF at ChTZ, T-34 at STZ, a factory was built under the HF in Gorky and for the T-50 in Kolomna.
          In 1939 there was no anti-aircraft machine gun suitable for mass production and reliable. The 61-K assault rifle, a copy of Bofors for a 37mm caliber, was only created and tested. Then with difficulty mastered in a series at the existing art factory.
          But the Molotov and Amur factories, well, or some others at open sea theaters, would have to be urgently built in the early 1950s for the construction of nuclear submarines, with which in this case a significant delay and lag would inevitably come from the states.

          There was no sense from your cars and tractors, since they were not at the front, and they were not at the front because they did not buy equipment and did not build factories in 37-39.
          The military demanded armored personnel carriers from the beginning of the 30s, but there was nowhere to produce them, tank plants riveted tanks, tk. it was believed that tanks are more important than armored personnel carriers. And there was no extra plant for the armored personnel carrier, everything was gobbled up by the "big fleet".
          Zenavtomat was called "Bofors", in order to quickly produce it, a well-equipped plant with imported equipment was needed (several workshops at the existing plant), so that from the beginning of 1940 it could produce the memory brought by the Swedes.
          About the 50s, there’s some kind of bump: in general, where does the nuclear submarine and the reduction of losses in the Second World War?
      7. 0
        8 May 2019 11: 32
        isolation of the USSR did not stop since 17 years.
        he, like Iran today, was forbidden to buy a lot of things abroad, and it was not easy to sell.
        trade deals with Italy, Germany, the USA and a year of cooperation with France are narrow windows in isolation.
  2. +7
    2 May 2019 07: 17
    Yes, the power of pragmotism was not enough, it was necessary to build, first of all, the destroyers and cruisers more necessary for the fleet, the more light cruisers! Battleships were already "an endangered species" at that time due to the appearance of aircraft carriers, and naval aviation! Andrew hi to you as always, thanks for the article! Infrequently, alas, it turns out to comment on your articles, but the fact that the specialist writes them is understandable! !! hi
    1. + 11
      2 May 2019 07: 42
      In 1936, this was not yet obvious and above the command of the USSR fleet still dreamed of Jutland and Tsushima! However, like the admirals of all countries, without exception, including Germany, Britain and France.
      By the way, the British managed during the Norwegian company to lose the Glories aircraft carrier from the actions of battle cruisers!
      So there were still five long years left before Pearl Harbor!
      Regards, Vlad!
      1. Alf
        0
        2 May 2019 16: 20
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        By the way, the British managed during the Norwegian company to lose the Glories aircraft carrier from the actions of battle cruisers!

        Exclusively due to the stupidity of an aircraft carrier commander, and not for objective reasons.
    2. +8
      2 May 2019 08: 27
      Quote: Thrifty
      more destroyers and cruisers needed by the fleet all the more light cruisers!

      1. Passion for LC is characteristic of all little-wits. For example, Americans before WWI.
      2. What the hell is the Soviet Navy cruiser? Where will they cruise?
      Quote: Thrifty
      an endangered species "due to the appearance of aircraft carriers, and, naval aviation

      The only fleet where AV fans came to power before WWII was Japanese. And that Yamamoto was not the most important there. He determined tactics, but could not redraw the shipbuilding program.

      The Americans, for example, at the fleet level had no idea how to use the AB for striking targets. This is striking even by Midway, six months after HRP and Ripals.

      From the 36th to April of the 41st they laid down 1 (one) aircraft carrier (Hornet) and 10 (ten) battleships.
      1. -4
        2 May 2019 12: 41
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        What the hell is the Soviet Navy cruiser? Where will they cruise?

        As where? At the most important events of the army and navy. In the parades.
        1. 0
          2 May 2019 12: 46
          Quote: ww2-1
          In the parades.

          You're right. I didn’t think about it.
          1. +1
            2 May 2019 20: 05
            No, the cruisers were needed as "the world's most expensive infantry production method"
  3. +1
    2 May 2019 07: 24
    the construction of the battleships lobbied by Kuznetsov was a mistake, but in reality the main submarines were built by minesweepers and destroyers (corresponding to the modern RTOs) which were useful in the war.
    1. + 12
      2 May 2019 07: 48
      This was a mistake in view of our afterlife. And then, as the commentator wrote above, the battleship
      was considered the main striking force of the fleet.
      1. +3
        2 May 2019 11: 15
        Quote: Rakovor
        was considered the main striking force of the fleet.

        And a lot of Russian battleships in the First World War "hit"?
        1. +1
          2 May 2019 13: 01
          Was there a lot of them? Battleships? And when did they appear? What phase of the war? Or did you count the battleships for them?
          1. +1
            2 May 2019 13: 31
            Quote: bayard
            Was there a lot of them?

            As far as I know, seven

            Quote: bayard
            What phase of the war?

            At any. I do not limit the period.
            1. +3
              2 May 2019 14: 19
              Quote: Spade
              As far as I know, seven

              It depends on how you count wink
              If we count purely according to classification, then during WWI there were 17 (seventeen) pieces. request
              And if according to common sense, then yes, there were 7 (seven) real dreadnoughts that entered service and 5 unfinished ones - 4 "Ishmael" and "Emperor Nicholas I"
        2. +3
          2 May 2019 13: 39
          Quote: Spade
          And a lot of Russian battleships in the First World War "hit"?

          And it depends on the command, and in the case of the PMV in general from the king wink The tsar-father was afraid to lose precious toys, because their routes consisted of cruising from Kronstadt to the CMP. And since the Germans did not plan to break through the CMP to St. Petersburg with battleships, the Russian dreadnoughts were completely useless. And with the "Crown Prince" and "Grosser Kurfust" in the Gulf of Riga fought .... the antediluvian "Glory" with the same antediluvian "Tsarevich".
          But on the Black Sea, Russian dreadnoughts went where they wanted. They just had no rival there - Souchon took care of his "Goeben", like the apple of his eye hi
          1. +3
            2 May 2019 14: 10
            Quote: Rurikovich
            And it depends on the command, and in the case of the PMV in general from the king

            Well yes...
            Unfortunately, the Tsar-priest was not an ancient Ukrainian and could not dig a new sea in which the battleships could show themselves.

            Quote: Rurikovich
            then the Russian dreadnoughts dangled completely useless.

            ... regularly bumping into the shallows.

            Which, in fact, should have been proved.
            1. +1
              3 May 2019 20: 54
              Quote: Spade
              Unfortunately, the Tsar-priest was not an ancient Ukrainian and could not dig a new sea in which the battleships could show themselves.

              Unfortunately, we know who our last "tsar-father" was .. It remains to be understood who the admirals were who coordinated the construction of this pile of WWII battleships in the Baltic, where they ran aground twice a month .. Except for the harbor specially deepened for them, of course :)
        3. +2
          2 May 2019 15: 48
          Quote: Spade
          And a lot of Russian battleships in the First World War "hit"?

          They seized dominance on the Black Sea.
        4. Alf
          +2
          2 May 2019 16: 25
          Quote: Spade
          And a lot of Russian battleships in the First World War "hit"?

          Few. If only because, firstly, they were sitting where access to the operational space was a big question. Secondly, they are, to put it mildly, inferior to competitors in terms of performance characteristics. Thirdly, a revolutionary situation quickly developed in which a period of anarchy began. And, fourthly, there were battleships, but our brave naval command did not develop plans for their use.
        5. +3
          2 May 2019 21: 04
          As the British said, "The Navy fights with one fact of its existence"
      2. 0
        2 May 2019 12: 45
        Quote: Rakovor
        And then, as the commentator wrote above, the battleship
        was considered the main striking force of the fleet.

        The Black Sea Fleet was locked in the Black Sea, and the Baltic Sea Fleet, in the Baltic. Who were they supposed to "hit"?
        1. -2
          2 May 2019 12: 57
          On your empty head. ))
          1. -1
            2 May 2019 13: 08
            Quote: Rakovor
            On your empty head.

            Do not assume that everyone has the same head as you.
  4. 0
    2 May 2019 09: 53
    Hmm ... Entertaining arithmetic ...
  5. +8
    2 May 2019 10: 28
    Alas, as we now know, the capabilities of the domestic industry were extremely overrated, and the construction of 533 warships with a total displacement of over 1,3 million tons was completely beyond her power over some 10 years.
    This program itself was a common document, and provided for the construction of 8 battleships of type “A”, 16 battleships of type “B”, 20 light cruisers, 17 leaders, 128 destroyers, 90 large, 164 medium and 90 small submarines.

    On March 19, 1907, Nicholas II was presented with the "Strategic Foundations for a Plan of War at Sea" for approval.
    To implement the "plans for war at sea", the naval general staff proposed four variants of shipbuilding programs.
    By option No. 1, by 1920 it was proposed to build 32 battleships, 16 battle cruisers, 36 light cruisers, 144 destroyers, 180 mine ships and 120 submarines.
    If we compare the figures, the vision of the tasks of the fleet and the required number of ships to solve these tasks among the Tsarist and Soviet admirals is practically identical.
    True, the king, on mature thinking, overpowered option number 4 - the fourth part of the first option.
    1. +3
      2 May 2019 12: 24
      If we compare the numbers, then the vision of the fleet’s tasks and the required number of ships to solve these tasks of the tsarist and Soviet admirals practically coincides.

      Ok, but where did you see "fleet vision"?? Only quantities, like" I want two kamionchiki, a fire truck (two!) ... Well, a doll for my sister)))
      1. +2
        2 May 2019 13: 16
        "The vision of the tasks of the fleet" by the top military-political leadership of the USSR is described in detail by the author in the first part of the article.
        The "vision of the tasks of the fleet" by the respective leadership of the Russian Empire can be seen in the "Strategic Foundations for a Plan of War at Sea". As part of the commentary, I do not see the possibility of analyzing this document, especially since those interested in the history of the fleet know it.
        1. +3
          2 May 2019 14: 33
          "The vision of the tasks of the fleet" by the top military-political leadership of the USSR is described in detail by the author in the first part of the article.

          No, there is the author's "guess" (very likely) that Stalin needed a large fleet exclusively as a foreign policy instrument. And he eats the opinion of N.G. Kuznetsova in her memoirs that the program for the construction of the "Big Fleet" "was hastily taken without sufficient justification for her How
          from an operational point of view
          in terms of technical capabilities
          »There is no document with" visions "there.
          1. +1
            2 May 2019 15: 20
            Take the "Draft report of the USSR People's Commissar of Defense, Marshal of the Soviet Union K.E. Voroshilov to the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) I.V. Stalin and the Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars V.M. Molotov dated September 07.09.1937, XNUMX", read it and find everything there.
    2. +3
      2 May 2019 20: 20
      By option No. 1, by 1920 it was proposed to build 32 battleships, 16 battle cruisers, 36 light cruisers, 144 destroyers, 180 mine ships and 120 submarines.


      "the dream of reason gives rise to monsters", and Tukhachevsky is also scolded
  6. +5
    2 May 2019 10: 47
    + + + +
    Dear author, something like a hydra. Do not have time to read one interesting article, so he has already posted two new articles (and even more interesting)
  7. DPN
    -6
    2 May 2019 11: 29
    It is easy to judge the centennial history and peasant education in computer time, take care of your TIME. There may be more benefits for the country.
    1. +6
      2 May 2019 12: 23
      Quote: DPN
      Easy to judge
      Do not judge, but analyze.
      Without analyzing the past, it’s much easier to sit in a puddle in the future.
      1. +2
        2 May 2019 21: 38
        Without analyzing the past much easier sit in a puddle ...

        And we are not looking for easy ways))))
        Uriah Heep said something a little different in "Circle of Hands" - something like "everything is like this (now) because "today" is just yesterday's "tomorrow"
    2. +5
      2 May 2019 12: 45
      ... take care of your TIME. there may be more benefits for the country

      ++++++++! The author has quite a few such articles - on the modern navy and even on the social structure! Only in them the emphasis is on criticality, and in historical ones, on the contrary - on "whitewashing" far from unambiguous figures)) He likes to swim against the current, in his Rudnev is a worthy commander, Rozhdestvensky is a titan of thought and a person close to ...; Stalin, Zhukov - ... Always their justification major failures and erroneous decisions in "circumstances", "could interpret the information available then" "did not know then what ..." and so on. But the author is good, he "almost" succeeds ..)))
      1. +2
        2 May 2019 20: 03
        But the author is good, he "almost" succeeds ..)))


        yeah, then the firing delay automatic machine will correct for 15 years earlier, then it will count the ballistic coefficient for another shell from another cannon, then K de Marra will take 2134 for everyone - but it reads freshly and interestingly for some flaws - everything is better than stupid retelling of the wiki

        I, too, could start a2-a3 in chess wassat but fun

        I wish him creative success!
        1. +3
          2 May 2019 20: 56
          then the firing delay machine will correct for 15 years earlier, then the ballistic coefficient for another shell from another gun will count

          These are the details, everyone can make a mistake (you too), Andrey always admits such mistakes (you too)) ...
          Yes, and automatic delay РјРѕРіР »Ryo do 15 years earlier if you know / compare the accuracy ...
          ... for some flaws it is read freshly and interestingly

          That's it.
          I, too, could start a2-a3 in chess

          Don't grandmasters play e2-e4?))) For example ... laughing
          I wish him creative success!

          Agree ))))
  8. +4
    2 May 2019 12: 06
    ... light cruisers were to be built according to the Kirova project, leaders - according to the 20I project (the famous “blue cruiser” Tashkent) ...


    Our leader "Tashkent" is an Italian project and was bought in Italy. In Italy the project was called "Captains Romane", and the ships being designed were of the destroyer class. The lead ship of this series was called "Atillio Regollo".
    Our light cruisers of the "Kirov" class, according to the western classification, successfully migrated to heavy, because of the main caliber, naturally.

    Andrey, as always, many thanks and Holidays. drinks
    1. +4
      2 May 2019 13: 17
      Mutually!!!
      Alas, before the start of the Great Patriotic War, Tashkent in a qualitative version, we could not produce this! But with the Italian, 100mm guns came into our fleet, which gradually displaced 4 inches from the ships, and then found their application on land: BS-3 and T-10!
      A unique 180mm caliber for project 26 and 26bis cruisers, inferior in power to 203mm guns, but surpassed in rate of fire. True 180mm fine-cut guns had exhausted their life even before the early 40s! Sadly, a number of ships and railway batteries had precisely these guns, in particular the Red Caucasus, which naturally affected the values ​​of these units!
      Regards, Vlad!
      1. +1
        2 May 2019 13: 56
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        But with the Italian, 100mm guns came into our fleet, which gradually displaced 4 inches from the ships, and then found their application on land: BS-3 and T-10!
        A unique 180mm caliber for project 26 and 26bis cruisers, inferior in power to 203mm guns, but surpassed in rate of fire.

        The T-10 tank has a 122mm gun, if you are talking about the gun of the T-54,55 tank, it is the D-10). Regarding the characteristics of the 180mm gun, in practice it did not "suffer" from an increased rate of fire.
      2. +5
        2 May 2019 21: 10
        A unique 180mm caliber for project 26 and 26bis cruisers, inferior in power to 203mm guns, but surpassed in rate of fire.
        And far superior?
    2. Alf
      -1
      2 May 2019 16: 34
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Our light cruisers of the "Kirov" class, according to the western classification, successfully migrated to the heavy ones, due to their main caliber, of course.

      Why do you think so ? GK heavy cruisers of the West began with a 203-mm, and displacement from 10-11 thousand. Kirov did not pass by both parameters.
      1. +4
        2 May 2019 17: 53
        Quote: Alf
        GK heavy cruisers of the West began with a 203-mm, and displacement from 10-11 thousand

        They did not begin, but ended.
        The KRT and KRL classes were introduced by the London Maritime Treaty of 1930. Anything above 155 mm - KRT, anything above 8 "- LK.
        Quote: Alf
        Kirov did not pass by both parameters.

        In the 22nd, the English Hawkins, 10K, 190 mm GK was taken as the maximum CR sample (after which the capital spike, battleship began).
        Among the SRT in the region of 8-9 thousand tons, the early Japanese and the late British (Furutaka, Aoba and York), and the Argentine Almirante Brown, Gorky's brother: 7K, 190 mm, were spinning.
    3. +4
      2 May 2019 21: 49
      The Capitani Romani class ships were designed and operated in the Italian Navy as light cruisers and never served in the Italian Navy as destroyers. Moreover, the Capitani Romani class cruiser project was being implemented when Tashkent was already under construction and the Italians used many of the solutions from Tashkent when designing these cruisers.
      As for the basis of the Tashkent project, these are the Navigatori class destroyers - the last ones designed in Italy before the war.
    4. -1
      3 May 2019 16: 22
      So there is everything else Italian --- and Kirovs, and "sevens", and even "Soviet Union".
      Soviet leaders, these already dense Italian projects, only compressed even denser ...
      1. +2
        3 May 2019 16: 45
        Quote: AK64
        So there is everything else Italian --- and Kirovs, and "sevens", and even "Soviet Union".

        Yes, the Lord is with you ... In Kirov from Italian only energy and theoretical case design, which we then reworked, the Soviet Union didn’t have anything but an PTZ named Pulese.
        1. 0
          3 May 2019 17: 31
          Soviets made extensive efforts in Italy and the United States to purchase either drawings or the ships themselves in the late 1930s. [2] The Italian firm of Gio. Ansaldo & C. proposed a ship of 42,000 long tons (43,000 t) standard displacement with nine 16-inch (406 mm) guns, in size and appearance similar to the Italian battleship Littorio then under construction by the company.

          This is the Soviet Union.
          In general, here as a gritsa "show the people who designed it"? In the USSR then, in general, they could not design anything themselves. (This is not a fault - this is a problem: there are no engineers left)
          Well, yes, the Italian (already very tight) project was then also "compressed" --- that is, "made a contribution", as without that.

          Kirov:
          The initial project was based on the project of the cruiser Raimondo Montecuccoli, but the final project was created on the basis of the theoretical design of the cruiser Eugenio di Savoy, the further development of the cruiser Raimondo Montecuccoli. A complete package of technical documents for the ship was purchased by the Soviet side from the Italian company Ansaldo, Anatoly Ioasafovich Maslov was appointed chief designer of the Project 26 cruiser in the USSR.


          The Ansaldo company provided plans for the contemporary Raimondo Montecuccoli-class cruisers and a design displacing 7,200 tonnes (7,086 long tons) and armed with six 180-millimetre (7.1 in) guns in twin turrets was produced in 1933. The Italians guaranteed that the cruiser could make 37 knots (69 km / h; 43 mph) on trials if the size was kept under the 7200-tonne limit. The designer of the new turret managed to persuade his superiors that he could fit triple turrets to the ship while keeping it within the specified limit, and this design was approved in November 1934 as the Project 26. [1]

          The Soviets bought an example of, and plans for, the machinery of the later Duca d'Aosta-class cruisers and had some difficulty in adapting the smaller hull for the larger and more-powerful machinery, so much so that it delayed the start of construction. Another problem was that the Italian design had to be adapted to use the Soviet preference for a mix of longitudinal framing for the hull framing amidships and transverse framing for the ends, while also reinforcing the hull structure to withstand the more-severe weather conditions that the Soviets commonly encountered.


          But here - if you want to eat, you will not. For me, the Italian blood of these ships is obvious. And to "prove", sorry, I don't see the point: such questions are solved not by a sip, but by a long and personal search in the literature. (Or in the archives, if someone can afford it.)

          In general, the Italian beginning is quite visible in everything. And I must say nothing good came of it: the Italians made their boats for the Mediterranean, and greatly facilitated. (And in the USSR they went even further in the same direction). The results can hardly be called satisfactory.
          1. +2
            3 May 2019 18: 24
            Quote: AK64
            This is the Soviet Union.

            No, this is a battleship project in 42 CT that had nothing to do with Soviet Union - these are two completely different projects.
            Quote: AK64
            In general, here as a gritsa "show the people who designed it"?

            Read Vasiliev's monograph "Battleships of the Soviet Union type", everything is described in great detail, including the Italian battleship project.
            Quote: AK64
            The initial project was based on the project of the cruiser "Raimondo Montecuccoli", but the final project was created on the basis of the theoretical drawing of the cruiser "Eugenio di Savoy"

            That's it - "on the basis of a theoretical drawing." And a somewhat detailed analysis of these same drawings makes it clear that apart from the theoretical drawing, which ours later ruled for three-gun turrets, and the chassis that we copied, there is nothing else there. Literally everything differs - the main dimensions, the booking scheme, etc.
            Quote: AK64
            But here - if you want to eat, you will not. For me, the Italian blood of these ships is obvious. And to "prove", sorry, I see no point: such questions are solved not by a sip, but by a long and personal search in the literature.

            The only question is that, unlike you, I conducted these surveys. By the way, there is a series of my articles devoted to cruisers of the 26 and 26-bis project
  9. -1
    2 May 2019 12: 18
    N ... yes. One can feel the difference between the "totalitarian economy" and the local kindergarten during the period of eternal initial capital accumulation. How can we build up construction capacities back then?
    1. -3
      2 May 2019 12: 47
      Quote: sleeve
      How would we build up the power back?

      For what? For the construction of waste products?
      It’s easier to dig a hole before lunch. And after lunch, bury. It will be cheaper.
    2. Alf
      +1
      2 May 2019 16: 37
      Quote: sleeve
      How would we build up the power back?

      Turn to these comrades.
  10. -1
    2 May 2019 16: 20
    It’s very clever to build battleships that would bring in a stand in the 50th year that year.
  11. -1
    2 May 2019 22: 24
    Interesting stuff, convincing. Here I also found something on trifles in the book of S. Balakin "Legendary sevens" (M, 2007) on pp. 114-115. We are talking about the design flaws of projects 7 and 7U - the holes in the floras of the fuel tanks were located not at the very bottom, but somewhat higher. As a result, a stock of fuel oil accumulated at the bottom, which was not taken by the pumps. Approximately 20 tons of fuel was dead weight. It doesn't look like slovenliness, rather sabotage. I think this could have happened on many projects.
    1. +4
      3 May 2019 11: 28
      As a result, a stock of fuel oil accumulated at the bottom, which the pumps did not take.


      A trifle - it is easily fixed: inside the tank, when finalizing, a pipe is welded in, the open end of which is closer to the bottom of the tank. Saboteurs and pests will not even look towards this type of damage - it is important for them to inflict irreparable damage. This is probably a minor miscalculation: in large containers with oil products, water always accumulates at the bottom and it is impossible to have a very bottom on the fuel intake - there is only a flange for periodic discharge of accumulated water and solid sediment.
      1. 0
        3 May 2019 13: 34
        It seems to be so, but no one has made such improvements during the war, the destroyers, who were already suffering from a small supply of fuel, carried this expensive ballast with them. It seems that access to the inside of the tank was not as easy as it seems.
        1. +4
          3 May 2019 14: 41
          Inside any large tanks there is always a hatch provided for by technical standards in their design and manufacture. The fuel supply of Project 7-U was stored in fuel tanks containing 484 tons of fuel oil; non-pumped fuel oil reduced the capacity, respectively, by only 4,13%. Since the operating ship was urgently needed here and now, no one bothered with bullshit; ship repair already had a queue of really damaged ships. The book, probably, does not focus on the true reason for refusing refining, the essence of which was that, in order to carry out in-tank work, the oiled tank had to be washed, for which, however, there was no time either at the ship or at the plants.
    2. +2
      3 May 2019 21: 04
      Quote: Aviator_
      About 20 tons of fuel was dead cargo. It does not look like sloppiness, but rather - wrecking.

      The 7-k's full fuel supply is 252 tons, the largest 518 tons. Even if 20 tons of spare tanks were not scratched, it is difficult to consider intentional wrecking.
  12. +3
    2 May 2019 22: 38
    Thank you for another article, Andrey. You are doing well! To the prose of the present days. 1) What do you think, in what direction should the construction of NK for the Navy be developed today? 2) How many more 22350, in your opinion, would make sense to lay down to replenish the effective interaction of forces and means of our fleet (including for conducting operational tactical actions in the DMZ, and what is today "called a demonstration of the flag")?! 3) Why did our Navy order (and there are concerns that it will continue to order) 20380 corvettes instead of 11661-K (E) for ASW in BMZ (let's say to provide air defense functions), given that the first option is 5-7 billion more expensive than the second, per unit, given that the 20380 project, with an expensive but "completely ineffective" without the Poliment antenna, Redut complex, and the absence of effective systems for combating submarines of a potential enemy at long range (neither 533 mm TA, nor the ability to use Kalibr-PL)?! And the last ... 4) Why is there no emphasis on creating new ships capable of becoming "the center of the KPUG in the new Navy" :! I mean ships of a truly first rank. Like what was a little earlier, on the Rosoboronexport website, under the guise of the old BPK 1155, but with 12 inclined PUs for the Kalibr/Onyx anti-ship missiles (near the wheelhouse, in place of the old 8 Rastrub-B anti-ship missiles). Unfortunately, these images have apparently disappeared from their website, at least I stopped finding them. And another 16 (two by 8), and ideally 24 (3 by 8, as on Project 11560) UKSK cells for Kalibr/Onyx, not counting the fact that on the same Project 11560, the presence of 64 cells for the Poliment-Redut SAMs had already been calculated, behind the wheelhouse, for effective air defense support of the ship's order. It seems to me that the M7-AM propulsion plant (consisting of the M-70FRU cruise gas turbine engines and the M-90FR afterburners), about which rumors have leaked as promising for new first-rank NKs, could be useful for them?
    1. 0
      3 May 2019 04: 47
      [/ quote] despite the fact that the first option is more expensive than the second by 5-7 billion, for one unit, [quote]


      All this is useless trash, absolutely not needed by the people of Russia and being built exclusively for drinking, cutting and kickbacks.
      It is necessary to quickly move to a new technological turn: design and build unmanned robot ships. But under the rule of the fabulous, this will turn into peeling, peeling and rolling, and as a result, into a zilch with cartoons.
      1. 0
        3 May 2019 05: 58
        how did you get it, "truth-tellers".
    2. +2
      3 May 2019 09: 16
      Vladimir, thank you for your kind words, but the questions you put are right for them to write a separate article :))) And a few :))) About how I see a corvette for the Russian Navy I wrote here https: // topwar. ru / 152171-kakim-dolzhen-byt-korvet-vmf-rf-nemnogo-divannoj-analitiki.html
      Small and relatively stealth ship with a gas-gas power plant (or partially electric) and speeds up to 30 nodes. Standard displacement - no more than 1 600-1 700 t. Armament - 2 SIGN "Pantsir-M", 8 * 533-mm and 8 * 324-mm torpedo tubes, helicopter in the hangar. Developed sonar complex, low-cost radar, high-quality EW system and jamming - yes, in general, that's all. It can be assumed that such a ship would be comparable in cost, or even cheaper than the 20380 project corvettes, and certainly much cheaper than the 20385 and 20386 projects, but at the same time its anti-submarine capabilities will be higher.
      About the frigates 22350 - my opinion, ideally, it is generally the wrong type of ship, should build something like 22350M, that is, the destroyer in 8 000 t displacement. Nevertheless, 22350 is much better than nothing, they should be built at least 6 units (there will be at least one division), but in general it would be necessary to have more such ships, their number should be brought to at least 24.
      Quote: Vl Nemchinov
      Why is there no emphasis on the creation of new ships capable of becoming "the center of the KPUG in the new Navy"

      There are - destroyers Leader, but this ... By the way, I have an article about TARKR the other day, let's continue there! hi
  13. +1
    3 May 2019 07: 36
    That is, I.V. Stalin, Council of People's Commissars, etc. in fact, they did the following - on the one hand, provided the domestic industry with resources for a substantial expansion of its capabilities, but on the other hand, they posed the most difficult tasks that it had to be addressed in a short time and controlled their implementation. I would like to note that this principle of “carrot and stick” still represents an excellent development strategy for any single enterprise or industry as a whole, and we can only regret that our modern management has abandoned these generally simple management principles.


    The main idea!
  14. 0
    3 May 2019 16: 23
    Thanks to the author for the curious information, especially statistical .. love
    To agree with the opinion of the author that it is not real plans to create a fleet in the USSR is good for training the imagination of admirals is difficult! bully
    Probably not real plans in the USSR in all sectors (industry, agriculture, weapons for the Red Army and Red Army, foreign policy) were a reflection of amateurs in power! request In itself, unrealistic planning undermines the essence and principles of government - how can one ask for the implementation of plans that are not provided with resources? And how can one trust a guide that gives such guidance? As a result, performers remain on all levels of government, and they are doomed to be responsible for failed plans! bully
    As for the construction of a large fleet in the 30s, it was nonsense of politicians (more precisely, politics bully ), who did not understand how the navy operates in politics!
    It was impossible to scare the Anglo-Saxons with a fleet without a system of basing in open theaters, a repair base and much more! This is the usual Soviet nonsense, as was correctly said - like the formation of the 30th MK... If they had built it, the result would have been similar to the use of the latter in 41... bully
    The problem is that the leadership of the USSR did not proceed from the realities of politics, but from its own fantasies - the result was terrible losses of both people and wealth...
    "And therefore it is impossible to say that their laying is premature."
    it is possible and necessary - well, large art was not needed. RKKF ships - there were no reasonable tasks for them ... request It’s like Hitler’s battleships - the money spent is big, and the result is modest, especially in comparison with the submarines ... At the same time, the Germans based were not comparable better, we have the only place for the LCs ...
  15. 0
    3 May 2019 21: 08
    In the story of thousands of Soviet battleships, the most important thing is that they managed to build at least 50 destroyers. Here they are very useful. :)

    And in terms of costs, we can recall that for the restoration of the fleet before the WWII, the Russian Empire thumped half of the military budget. The return, as we all remember, is a complete zero .. Some modesty of the Soviet fleet in financial terms is probably more likely to please. :)
    1. +1
      4 May 2019 09: 52
      Quote: Saxahorse
      to restore the fleet before WWI, the Russian Empire fell half of the military budget

      But this is not true. The 1913 maritime budget of the year was just over a quarter of the military, and this is the peak. Usually from 12 to 20%
      1. -1
        6 May 2019 21: 10
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        But this is not true. The 1913 maritime budget of the year was just over a quarter of the military, and this is the peak. Usually from 12 to 20%

        Where do you get all this from? Do you just take your word for your friends from "Alternative History"? :)

        We are not talking about current expenses (there really are more soldiers than sailors), but about additional, “one-time” allocations for the rearmament of the army and the restoration of the Russian navy before WWI.

        "On August 3, 1909 ... a special meeting was held under the chairmanship of Stolypin with the participation of ministers - finance, military, naval (Adm. Voevodsky), foreign ministers - chief of the general staff and chief of the naval general staff (admiral Eberhard) ... At the meeting presented Naval General Staff, the program met with a number of objections ... The next meeting of a special meeting to consider this program was held on December 1, 1909, but in a slightly different composition (instead of Sazonov - Izvolsky, instead of Myshlaevsky - the new chief of the General Staff Gerngross; in addition, the assistant to the military Minister Gen. Polivanov) .On February 24, 1910, these notes were considered by the Council of Ministers, which, satisfied with their content, decided .. "To submit to the State Duma a submission: .. On March 25, 1910, Nicholas II approved this resolution, writing on the report:" I agree The program must be completed within 10 years. "


        “In its final form, according to the approval of the Council of Ministers and the tsar, the ten-year program for the restoration of the army and navy was a bill on leave for the state defense of 1413 million rubles, including 715 million for the military department and 698 million rubles for the sea. "


        As you can see, I am telling you specifically when, by whom, and how much money was agreed for the army and navy of the Republic of Ingushetia. Incidentally, these figures do not include the "emergency" shipbuilding programs adopted immediately before the war, and there the fleet asked for another 502 million until 1917.

        Well, the funny thing is, I already wrote all this to you, and brought the source. But for some reason, the real information in your memory did not linger. Unlike the fantasies of your friends in the alternative ..
        1. +1
          7 May 2019 09: 08
          In fact, there is nothing funny in that you rip out fragments that are convenient for you from the Shacillo article, ignoring it as a whole.
          But the thing is that all these Napoleonic plans that you refer to have never been accepted. And Cornelius Fedorovich writes about this very definitely.
          1. +2
            7 May 2019 09: 33
            I feel I need to make a clarification. One side. Shacillo writes:
            The "Law on the Fleet" was not only approved by the tsar and approved by the government for inclusion in the Duma in the autumn of 1914, but actually began to be implemented, since the "Strengthened Shipbuilding Program" adopted by the Duma in 1912 was the first part of this law and the adoption to a certain extent, it was also predetermined by the fate of the law itself as a whole.

            And then, somewhat covertly, but nevertheless, it is quite clear, he says that things did not go beyond talking about "required appropriations". Moreover, even the final amount of these appropriations was not determined.
            But most importantly, you stated that money already plumped on these plans, but in reality nothing like it did not have.
            1. -1
              7 May 2019 20: 19
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              But most importantly, you said that money has already been thumped into these plans, but in reality there was nothing of the kind.

              Are you delusional or have you turned on the "blonde" again? The same battleships "not built" according to you, even in 1941, were booted by the Germans from Kronstadt ..

              Yes, and Shacillo has nothing to do with it. I do not quote his articles, but official sources.

              "Petrov MA Preparing Russia for World War at Sea. - ML: Gosvoenizdat, 1926."

              "L. G. Beskrovny ARMY AND NAVY OF RUSSIA AT THE BEGINNING OF XX C. Essays on the military-economic potential, Academy of Sciences of the USSR MOSCOW" SCIENCE "1986."

              Stop weaving nonsense here. You are given documents signed by your beloved "tsar-father" and you are here - "I don't believe it, but it can't be" ...
              1. +2
                8 May 2019 09: 32
                Have you forgotten what you wrote?
                And in terms of costs, we can recall that for the restoration of the fleet before the WWII, the Russian Empire thumped half of the military budget

                Then the question - who is the "blonde", is solved simply. The one who has a girl's memory :)
                now on those battleships that "booze" in 1941. Their construction cost about 150 million rubles. The payments were spread over five years. That is, something about 30 million rubles a year (in fact, payments were distributed more unevenly). And the budget of the military department in 1909 (at the time of laying) was 470 million ordinary expenses and 82 extraordinary. And where is half?

                Quote: Saxahorse
                Finish nonsense already here to weave.

                And it's true Finish!
                1. -2
                  8 May 2019 21: 13
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  Then the question - who is the "blonde", is solved simply. The one who has a girl's memory :)

                  Another round of injured memory? Are you dancing twerk now? laughing

                  Well, let me remind you. The battleships immediately squeezed out almost half of the funds allocated for the rearmament of the army and navy. 698 versus 715 ml. went to battleships. In the course of subsequent emergency programs, the fleet snatched another 502 million rubles, and the army was cut again for this. Battleships "ate" aircraft, howitzers, siege cannons and engineering troops. Even the program to increase the production of rifles was rejected by the Ministry of Finance because of the battleships. The fact that it was the restoration of the RI fleet that thwarted the rearmament of the army before WWI was proven long ago and proved by numbers and not by humming like yours.

                  By the way, it is good news that you did manage to find those seven "not built" battleships in the leaky cells of your memory. Not a bad start. A few more encounters with the harsh reality, you look and the finances in your head will clear up. laughing
                  1. +2
                    9 May 2019 09: 34
                    You know, when you say it feels like you are raving.
                    1. +2
                      9 May 2019 12: 52
                      Ivan, come on, man lives in his reality :) This ... eghkm ... "opponent" does not even know that before WWI, the ground forces had a lot of unspent money, and rifle manufacturing plants were idle without an order In general, he has everything topsy-turvy - he does not know the financing of the fleet, but he confuses it with the amounts required for the implementation of shipbuilding programs, etc. I waved my hand at him a long time ago, he doesn't know anything, and, most importantly, he doesn't want to know.
                      1. -2
                        9 May 2019 19: 57
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I have already waved my hand at him, he knows nothing, and, most importantly, he doesn’t want to know.

                        And I love you very much too! laughing

                        I have known for a long time that you are not a historian but simply a propagandist of the "crispy bun". It is useless to point out figures and documents to you, you "don't understand" everything that doesn't fit into your "program". I don't wish you luck. There is enough nonsense on all sorts of occasions without you.
                      2. 0
                        9 May 2019 20: 08
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        I love very much!

                        I have long been aware that you are not a historian, but simply a propagandist of "crispy bread". It is useless to point out numbers and documents to you, everything that does not fit into your "program" you still "do not understand". I wish you no luck.

                        Can you draw anything other than Smeshariki?
                      3. 0
                        9 May 2019 20: 36
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        And besides smesharika can you draw something?

                        But where is he :))) Tear a couple of numbers out of context, and wave them until I or someone does not explain to what depth the puddle he sat this time, and then run to the next topic, with comments "cosmic scales and cosmic ... "- this is its limit.
                      4. -1
                        9 May 2019 21: 11
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Tear a couple of numbers out of context, and swing them until I or someone else explains

                        Explain? You ?? You are our dreamer! laughing
                      5. -1
                        9 May 2019 21: 05
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        And besides smesharika can you draw something?

                        Are you also one of those who study the history of inscriptions and drawings on fences?
                    2. -1
                      9 May 2019 19: 51
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      You know, when you say it feels like you are raving.

                      You have chosen a completely ridiculous tactic. The constant denial of obvious and well-known facts. Well, what can you do but laugh at you? love

                      The 1910 program planned the construction of 8 battleships, 4 BrKR, 4 light cruisers and 18 destroyers. The existence of 7 battleships, we still forced you to admit. :) We have all seen the completed Svetlana in the Soviet Navy. The Ishmaels, which miraculously grew out of the BrKR, were dismantled on a slipway in a high degree of readiness (and in vain, it could have been completed). We saw destroyers too. And you are trying to convince us that the 1910 program has not been fulfilled at all? :)

                      Immediately after the REV, the army, represented by Minister of War A.F. Rediger, estimated the urgent need for rearmament at 2.1 billion rubles. And of course, right away, instead of an answer, she received a well-known three-finger design from the then Minister of Finance Witte.

                      After four years of swearing, and the liquidation of the state defense council headed by the owner Nick. Nikolayevich created a special commission chaired by Stolypin, which adopted a well-known joint program for the rearmament of the army and navy (715 + 698 million rubles). That same 1910 year. In less than a year, through the efforts of Stolypin, the fleet's share had already increased to 1.2 billion rubles. The army’s share in the rearmament program formally remained the same, but the actual funding of the army was cut for all four years. It turned out minus a total of 144 million rubles. In fact, in recent prewar years, funding for the rearmament of the army was halved (280 million-144 million) in favor of the fleet. And at the same time everyone knew that they were preparing for a land war with Germany and Austria-Hungary!
                      1. +1
                        10 May 2019 10: 05
                        The following amounts were spent on shipbuilding in the interwar period in the Republic of Ingushetia.
                        Andrey and Pavel - approximately 30 million rubles.
                        Baltic dreadnoughts approximately 30 million rubles each + reconstruction of shipyards and production facilities - 150 million rubles.
                        Black Sea battleships - another 30 million - 90 million rubles.
                        On "Izmail" in 1912 The decision was made 182 million. However The decision was made и highlighted - things are fundamentally different. Since these ships were never completed, then there is nothing to talk about. In total, about 90 million rubles were spent.
                        "Nikolai!" was also not completed, only 20 lamas for it ...
                        Total for battleships - 380
                        Cruisers - "Rurik2" - 15 million
                        3 Bayans - 22 million
                        8 "Svetlan" - not completed. In fact, spent - no more than 30 million for all.
                        That is, all in all for the cruiser in fact - no more than 70 million.
                        Plus destroyers, two German-built cruisers (which they didn’t pay for, but spent some money).
                        In general, if you count from 1905 to 1917, then 500 million can be counted. Again. 500 million. For twelve years. And certainly not "half of the budget" right before the war.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        And are you trying to convince us that the 1910 program is not complete at all?

                        I don't really understand what the 1910 program has to do with it. because what you listed refers to the "reinforced shipbuilding" program. And according to the 1910 program, it was supposed to build the minimum required number of ships to "ensure the operational capability of the BF".
                        So it should have been built on it:
                        4 - "Izmail" - not completed.
                        4 - "Svetlana" - not completed (partially completed under the USSR)
                        36 - destroyers - partially completed during the war.
                        12 - Submarines. - completed during the war.
                        Can the program be considered complete? I think the answer is obvious.
                        Goodbye. You are tired of me
                      2. 0
                        11 May 2019 20: 43
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Goodbye. You are tired of me

                        If you find it hard to think, this is your problem ..

                        The total amount for the rearmament of the army and navy is specified specifically in one of the most serious documents of the early 20th century. We saw that two-thirds of the funds were directed by Stolypin to the construction of the navy. Moreover, the funds allocated for the rearmament of the army were cut in half in the last four pre-war years. The figures specified in the program include not only the cost of the ships, but also the cost of preparing for production - the construction and expansion of factories, slipways, docks, etc., etc.

                        It is only in the wild fantasies of modern liberal monitors that the appearance of a round figure in the budget and the solemn slap of the seal is enough for the magical clap accompanying the appearance of a new battleship! In real life, you first need to create a production chain and only then will battleships and destroyers be born.

                        To be honest, it even surprises me how poorly you own real information. Have you really gathered all your knowledge from "alternative history"?
                      3. 0
                        12 May 2019 08: 40
                        Do you know why you never become a good alternative? Because for a sensible alternative, you need to know the real history very well, and not replace it with your own (and other people's) inventions. I have listed the real expenses for you. Yes, indeed, very significant funds were spent on the modernization of production. The difference between 30 million for one of the four "Sevastopol" and the final sum of 150 for all four - that's just about that.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        We saw that two-thirds of the funds were directed by Stolypin for the construction of the fleet.

                        I don’t know what you saw there, but while Pyotr Arkadyevich was the prime minister (1906-1911), the fleet’s share in the total military budget was minimal. The increase went just after his death, but also at the peak did not exceed 25% of total defense spending.
                      4. +1
                        12 May 2019 23: 51
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Do you know why you will never become a good alternative? Because for a sensible alternative, you need to know the real story very well, and not replace it with your (and other people's) inventions.

                        Exactly! You need to know the real story! You yourself float through the material like a flower in an ice hole, but with amazing aplomb you try to teach others. We are talking about the 1910 program, and without batting an eye, the Bayans counted there and even the Dotsushima battleships remembered .. But even seeing seven of the eight battleships of the program before your eyes, you keep repeating "No! This program has not been fulfilled!" Just some kind of ostrich tactics.

                        Stolypin did a lot to defeat Russia in WWI. It was he who initiated the transfer of almost all funds to the fleet. The numbers and documents have been brought to you.
                      5. 0
                        13 May 2019 09: 24
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Exactly! You need to know the real story! You yourself float through the material like a flower in an ice hole, but with amazing aplomb you try to teach others. We are talking about the 1910 program, and without batting an eye, the Bayans counted there and even the Dotsushima battleships remembered .. But even seeing seven of the eight battleships of the program before your eyes, you keep repeating "No! This program has not been fulfilled!"

                        1) I counted all the expenses on shipbuilding after the RYA in a vain attempt to find 700 million, about which you, with perseverance worthy of a better application, were talking about. In fact, they are not even with "Bayans" and certainly not and cannot be without them.
                        2) What the hell did you put into the same program for the Black Sea and Baltic battleships, if they were built in different ways?
                        3) You yourself brought the squadron (by the way, shamelessly transferred it, but let it be.) 8 battleships (executed at 50%, but even with the Black Sea 100 it will not work). 4 battlecruisers (0%). 4 (actually 9, but let it be) light cruisers (0%) ... in other words, the program on large ships, as it does not count, has not even been completed halfway ... what are you arguing about?
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Stolypin did a lot to defeat Russia in WWII

                        Alas. There is much to say about Peter Arkadievich, but he did not appoint and remove the ministers of war. He did not determine the required stocks of rifles, shells, ammunition and other ammunition. He did not draw up mobilization plans and much more.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        The numbers and documents have been brought to you.

                        you have no idea what numbers and documents are.
                      6. 0
                        14 May 2019 23: 23
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        I considered all the expenses for shipbuilding after the REV in a futile attempt to find 700 million, of which you, with tenacity worthy of better use, have interpreted

                        You counted! What for? :) No way you still doubted your precious Mr. Stolypin and suddenly decided to figure out how much money settled in his personal pocket? laughing

                        Your comments can hardly be called a fair discussion. You have been told the cost and composition of the 1910 program many times. And what do we see? Again, you are throwing around some left-wing figures and spinning your treadmill about "battleships not built"?

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        What the hell did you record in the same program for the Black Sea and Baltic battleships, if they were built in different ways?

                        Have you repeated ten times that the program was one? The minimum, the cost of which you have been repeatedly called and expanded to 1.2 billion. And about the minimum, you were told ten times that it was completed, and the extended one was only partially ..

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        You yourself brought the squadron (by the way, shamelessly distorted it, but let.) 8 battleships ..

                        I even apologize, but you are either a rare brake or blatantly lying. See the paragraph above: "Have you been told ten times that there was only one program? The minimum, the cost of which was repeatedly named to you and expanded to 1.2 billion." Again and again you brazenly distort what you have already written three times. The composition of the first minimum program: 8 LK, 4 BrKR (!), 4 KR, 18 EM. Have I repeated this to you? Are you planning to lie for a long time?

                        And the most important thing is that there is no sense in your picking, because the fact of Stolypin’s disruption of the rearmament program of the army was proved a long time ago. And the very ratio of funds broken precisely by Stolypin, and the further halving of the army’s funds for the sake of battleships speak for themselves. Stolypin is not the first statesman who cares about the interests of the country for the most part in words, but in fact lobbying for the exact opposite, but personally beneficial.
                      7. 0
                        15 May 2019 08: 43
                        All I can answer to this stream of consciousness is two quotes. One of them is yours:
                        to restore the fleet before the WWII, the Russian Empire plumped half of the military budget

                        My other:
                        it is not true

                        The fact that you do not understand the difference between "plans" (which existed for the most part on paper) and actual spending is your problem. The fact that you do not know that the final calculation took place after the ships were accepted into the treasury is your personal grief.
                        The fact that you do not even realize that the plans are considered fulfilled only when all the activities they have planned are implemented ... well, here you are not the only one. Our leadership now has quite a few people who sincerely believe that the state armament program has been completed, although in fact less than 50% of the target has been delivered on ships.
                        Since your arguments ran out (although in fact they weren’t, because torn fragments taken out of context cannot be considered as such), and you turned to insult, I think our communication is over.
                      8. 0
                        15 May 2019 23: 37
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The fact that you do not understand the difference between "plans" (which existed for the most part on paper) and actual spending is your problem.

                        As I see it, juggling is your main way of conducting a discussion. In general, we did not discuss "plans" and even less your ridiculous ideas about them. We discussed Stolypin's disruption of the army rearmament program by redistributing 3/4 of the funds in favor of the fleet, which is obviously useless in the expected war.

                        If upon the first approval of the rearmament program an agreement was reached on equal financing, in the amount of 141,3 mil. rub. on both (which is also strange), in fact, financing was carried out in respect of 35 million army, 110 million fleet annually. It was to this scandalous fact that I tried unsuccessfully to draw your attention.

                        However, you have successfully proved that discussing something seriously with you is useless. I'm tired of reading your alternative fantasies .. Finally, learn the real story! stop
                      9. 0
                        16 May 2019 09: 59
                        Listen, you constantly confuse me with someone. I did not discuss Stolypin with you, I specifically pointed out that your statement “half of the military budget was thrown” is not true. It was you who dragged the premier to something.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        amount 141,3 mil. rub

                        At least not seven hundred, about which you wove before and then bread :)))
                        If you are talking about the budget of 1913 of the year (when the financing of the fleet was maximum), then all spending on the Ministry of the Sea amounted to almost 245 million rubles, and on the military almost 717 million, that is, as I said, about a quarter of total spending went to the fleet.
                        However, this is not for me, but for people interested in facts, not speculation. I can advise them to ask why, before the start of the war, the military department stopped the creation of stockpiles of weapons and other supplies, although the money, and considerable amount, lay on his accounts with a dead weight.
                      10. 0
                        17 May 2019 00: 16
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        At least not seven hundred, about which you wove before and then bread :)))

                        A wonderful discovery! It turns out that you do not even know arithmetic, you are our "academician". laughing

                        The figure of 141 million is just one tenth of the amount allocated to both (715 + 690) / 10. What is promised to the army and navy for rearmament in equal shares annually. I thought you hadn’t finished school yet, but you don’t seem to have entered school yet .. wassat
    2. +2
      5 May 2019 08: 19
      The growth of industrial production in Russia before the WWII was 18-20% per year, which made it possible to ensure priority growth in the financing of the fleet, while increasing in absolute terms the financing of the army. With the readiness of rearmament, as always, they were 2 years late.
      About
      Recoil, as we all remember - a complete zero

      - This is ignorance of military history.
      The Black Sea — in addition to the blockade of the Bosphorus and coal transportation I’ll help, the race for Goeben — the fleet provided advancement of troops on the coastal flank of the Caucasian Front, on Trebizond. For this, the most active landing operations and military transportation, supply of troops were carried out. This task was completed successfully and completely.
      In the Baltic - support for troops on the coastal flank of the Gulf of Riga, defense at the mine-artillery position of the Gulf of Finland, that is, the approach to Petrograd. Until the middle of 1917, that is, before the collapse of the front and the fleet, this task was carried out successfully.
      The loss count is absolutely in favor of the Baltic Fleet. The Baltic Fleet controlled the sea, in conditions when the Germans could at any moment achieve an overwhelming advantage by transferring the battleships of the High Seas Fleet to the Baltic. The coastal flank of the troops on the coast of the Gulf of Riga was successfully supported.
      Let us recall the lack of such support in the Baltic in 1944-45, when German ships restrained the advance of our troops in Moonzund and Courland, inflicted heavy losses on them, and the battle with cruisers by the air forces was unsuccessful.
      1. 0
        6 May 2019 21: 35
        Quote: Potter
        The growth of industrial production in Russia before the WWII was 18-20% per year, which made it possible to ensure priority growth in the financing of the fleet, while increasing in absolute terms the financing of the army

        No, not so.
        state leave bill
        defense 1413 million rubles, including 715 million in the military department and 698 million rubles. by sea. The source of funds to cover these costs was a further increase in indirect taxes, primarily the increase in vodka prices.


        The growth in production in 1910-13 allowed the launch of an additional shipbuilding program for another 502 million rubles. (battleships and lin. cruisers). At the same time, appropriations for the army continued to be cut.

        "... the estimates of the War Ministry. So, in 1910 the reduction in appropriations amounted to 11 thousand rubles, in 665 - 1911 thousand, in 48 - 337, in 1912 - 20 thousand. At the same time, expenditures on field light artillery (932 thousand rubles), heavy howitzer artillery (1913 thousand), fortress artillery (62 thousand), aviation (740 thousand) and engineering (5 392 thousand rubles) "

        There is every reason to argue that the lack of modern guns and shells is a direct consequence of the construction of many battleships of the Baltic Fleet and Black Sea Fleet in front of the WWII.


        Quote: Potter
        The loss account is absolutely in favor of the Baltic Fleet. The control of the sea was over the Baltic Fleet, in conditions

        Do not tell people like that .. BF for 1914: 9 (+4) battleship, 9 (+4) cruisers, 57 (+36) EM and destroyer, 13 (+15) PL. In brackets under construction. Well, now tell me what such losses were caused to the German fleet by these 88 warships? Well now ..? laughing

        About the Black Sea Fleet is even funnier. 7 (+4) LC, 2 (+4) KR, 25 (+8) EM, 11 (+6) PL. We see 45 warships for 1914, plus several LCs were still introduced a year later. Only unlike the Baltic, where the Germans could even scare ... At the Black Sea Fleet, the Turks had nothing at all! One Geben and he accidentally wandered there .. And you are telling us here about the enormous benefits of this pile of expensive iron? : (((
  16. The comment was deleted.
  17. -3
    5 May 2019 09: 51
    So how much did it cost?

    To begin, consider the costs of capital construction in the interests of the Commissariats and Commissariats of the USSR

    How much did our People's Commissariat of Education cost? Or healthcare? How many apartments were built for ordinary people? How many villages were gasified? How many libraries were opened? Or maybe they would stop "collecting pennies" and abolish fees for senior classes in school? Or maybe they would abolish the "law on ears of corn"?

    No. There were battleships and cruisers, the people didn't need them. They were only needed by the military, especially the admirals. And also by the uncles in the Kremlin, who still let the Germans through to the Volga.
    1. 0
      5 May 2019 16: 33
      Which
      How many villages have been gasified?

      The first gasification with natural gas is a gas pipeline from the vicinity of Saratov to Moscow, built just in time for the war, in 1944. Until the 1950s, in Moscow, grandparents had a wood-burning stove in the kitchen and a wood-burning stove in the bath. What parallel world is the author of this comment from? Libraries were in every large village and collective farm, everywhere there were clubs and schools, literacy was already prevailing.
  18. 0
    6 May 2019 22: 37
    Quote: Potter
    Until the 1950s, in Moscow, grandparents had a wood-burning stove in the kitchen and a wood-burning stove in the bath.

    Including due to the fleet.
    Of course, in the US it wasn't much better in some places. But did our ancestors build socialism or what? And socialism is for the benefit of every person. And not just Kuznetsov and Gorshkov.
    In short, there must be an understanding that Culture, social needs and civilian sectors are primary. And the army and navy must protect all of this. And at a reasonable price, and not in such a way that the army is more expensive than the rest of society.
  19. 0
    7 May 2019 17: 11
    Quote: anzar
    Could you write the name of these 6 (six) battleships and where they were built.

    pr.23
    "Soviet Union" - Leningrad
    "Soviet Ukraine" - Nikolaev
    "Soviet Russia" - Molotovsk
    "Soviet Belarus" - Molotovsk
    pr. 69 "heavy cruisers")) in 40kt (!)
    "Kronstadt" - Leningrad
    "Sevastopol" - Nikolaev
    If you want to discuss what kind of battleship pr.69, i.e. 40kt and 305mm is not enough for you, then look at the definition in the Washington Treaty. A type can be called vsek- even the leader (of the proletariat)) hi

    1. Soviet Belarus was very quickly dismantled in 1940 with 3-4% readiness.
    2. For all the others, the readiness is 5-10% and only for the SS about 20%. In other words, all of these 6 battleships have a total readiness of about half of one battleship. Compare this cut of funds with completely finished new battleships: 4 battleships in Germany, 3 battleships Italy, 4 battleships in France, not to mention Japan, Britain and the USA. Of the great powers, only the USSR refrained from building new battleships in 30-50 years.
  20. 0
    8 May 2019 11: 36
    Quote: Jura 27
    Only suspicion would increase in relation to the country where they talk about the world revolution.

    This topic of the world revolution was closed by the age of 30.
    Refutations of this chapter of Marx's teachings have already been published, where it was shown that interclass collaborationism can quite effectively calm the "flame of world revolution". There were also confirmations from history - for example, the suppression of uprisings in Germany and Hungary.
  21. 0
    19 July 2019 14: 46
    eh to know where you fall! The fact is that Andrei from Chelyabinsk and Timokhin and other respected authors are fans of the fleet! But if there would be such a genius, who would know that in the future it will be more necessary to have a fleet (which) of aviation, strategic nuclear weapons, and ground forces? And it would be interesting to read an article - a comparison where a respected Andrey from Chelyabinsk would try to prove that the fleet is not needed (purely hypothetically). Unless of course afraid to undergo obstruction