The night before Tsushima. Why did the hospital ships give out the location of the Russian squadron with lights?

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This article began as a continuation of the story of the Pearl and Emerald armored cruisers. But in the course of working with materials on how the last days of Russian squadrons passed before the Tsushima battle, the author first drew attention to some absurdities in our usual interpretation of finding our ships on the night of 14 in May 1905, when the Japanese auxiliary cruiser Shinano-Maru ", Finding the burning lights of the hospital ship" Eagle ", went to them and" literally buried in the very center of the squadron. " Therefore, the material offered to your attention is entirely devoted to this episode.

How it all began


So, the Russian squadron was approaching the Tsushima Strait. But 12 May in 09.00 morning she divided: 6 transports went to Shanghai, and auxiliary cruisers "Rion", "Dnepr", "Kuban" and "Terek" left to perform a special task, which consists of cruising along the Japanese coast and in the Yellow Sea. Z.P. Rozhestvensky did not believe that these weak forces could somehow divert X. Togo’s main forces, but he found it useful that their raiding could force the Japanese to send several armored cruisers to intercept, and thereby weaken the patrols in the area where 2 th and 3 th Pacific Squadron.



Russian ships were moving in a compact marching order.

The night before Tsushima. Why did the hospital ships give out the location of the Russian squadron with lights?


It was assumed that in the event of the appearance of an enemy, the reconnaissance detachment would retreat to the cruisers in order to guard the transports, the right column, increasing the course and then turning, “all of a sudden” would go around and enter the left column, and Pearls and Emerald with the destroyers will take place from the opposite side of the enemy. In the case of the emergence of commercial ships, these cruisers had to, without additional orders, "drive" them from the course of the squadron. But there were no "contacts", except for the fact that the ships of the squadron were receiving Japanese radiograms. It was clear that the Japanese warships were not too far away, but ZP Rozhestvensky did not order to suppress their negotiations - the very fact of such an attempt, even with her luck, would have warned the Japanese in advance about the approach of the Russian forces.

The night before the battle, that is, from 13 to 14 in May, the squadron was moving with fires extinguished; the light signaling between the ships was not carried out either - the words of Rear Admiral N.I. Nebogatov. “The frequent alarms on the Stepanova system often transformed the squadron into some kind of solemn procession of brightly illuminated ships ...” apparently belonged to an earlier time. Other officers of the squadron do not mention any “illumination” or write directly about the lights put out. However, the hospital ships "Eagle" and "Kostroma" came with a full set of side lights, including gaff, which, ultimately, was the cause of the discovery of the Russian squadron.

To understand the reasons for this decision is very difficult, but we will try. As you know, on May 13, the Russian squadron was still undetected, in the sense that there was not a single Japanese combat or auxiliary ship that would come out to our ships in direct visibility. At the same time, the negotiations recorded by our ships became even more numerous and detailed: it was possible to make out the words: "Ten lights ... Like big stars", etc. Approximately in 13.00 on May 13 from “Prince Suvorov” they reported by signals to the rest of the squadron ships: “The enemy makes an alarm by telegraph without wires”. "The enemy scouts see our smoke, they cable a lot among themselves." “We should expect repeated mine attacks tonight” (probably, “repeated” was meant as multiple). Later, after 16.40, by the order of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky was given more signals: "Prepare for battle." "I see from telegraph signs that seven enemy ships are talking near us."

Did Z.P. believe? Rozhestvensky to the fact that the Russian squadron was already opened by the Japanese, or did he just want to shake up some commanders before the night, in which you could really expect Japanese mined attacks? Most likely, it’s still the second, since Zinovy ​​Petrovich indicated in his testimony of the investigative commission that the report on the Japanese negotiations “did not quite convince me that the squadron was open the previous night. I, at the present time, cannot say in the affirmative when, exactly, the enemy intelligence officers discovered us. ” Thus, on the night before the battle, the Russian commander did not know for sure whether his squadron was detected, but, of course, admitted such a possibility.

In this situation, a compact marching system without lights and without the avant-garde pushed forward, best fit the wishes of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky evade detection and attacks of the enemy. But such a plan, apparently, made sense only if the blackout was observed by absolutely the entire squadron, but this was not the case.

In some publications, the opinion was expressed that Z.P. Rozhestvensky did not consider it possible to force hospital ships to put out the lights, but this is not true. The fact is that during the squadron's march to Tsushima, he commanded them several times to go without lights, and his order was carried out without question. As for the night from 13 to May 14, the hospital ships directly carried out the order of Z.P. Rozhestvensky, given to them two days ago. The flag signal that 11 took to 15.20 on the Eagle hospital ship, read: “Orel and Kostroma go to the rear of the squadron for the night and turn on the lights” (entry in the Eagle logbook).

What kind of lights carried "Eagle" and "Kostroma"?


Strictly speaking, the situation was complicated by another “innovation” of the Russian commander. As is known, a hospital ship is considered a non-combatant and, according to the international law of those years, the use of military force is prohibited to it. In order to avoid tragic misunderstandings, hospital ships had a lot of differences from ships and vessels for other purposes. Their hull was painted white, with a red or green stripe going on the board, in addition, they carried the flag of the Red Cross and had some other differences.


Hospital ship "Kostroma"


But all this was clearly visible in the light of day, and at night the hospital ships carried the usual set of lights, just like any other ship. Accordingly, in the dark such a ship was relatively easy to confuse with a transport or auxiliary cruiser. Therefore, in August 1904, the chief doctor of the hospital ship "Eagle" Y.Ya. Multanovsky proposed to install additional gaff signal lights: white-red-white on the mainmast.

This proposal was supported by the Maritime Ministry, and hospital ships were equipped with such lights. The Japanese were notified through diplomatic channels, but they responded very evasively: “Wearing special lights on hospital ships at night is not enough to present to courts with such lights the rights and advantages in the form of many inconveniences that may arise from this.” As a result, the Russian leadership came to the conclusion that the Japanese were against installing additional lights on hospital ships, and wanted to dismantle them already. But here Z.P. Rozhdestvensky. He quite logically stated that international law does not limit the number of lights that a hospital ship can carry, and if so, then there is nothing to consult with the Japanese. Zinovy ​​Petrovich proposed to keep the lights, to notify the Japanese about this - the fact that hospital ships will receive an additional distinction will not be worse, and the Japanese have no right to protest, since international laws do not prohibit this.

All of this was correct, but thanks to these measures, the Russian hospital ships received a clear distinction from all other ships and ships of the world. They could not be confused at night with any commercial steamer. Any observer who discovered white-red-white gaffle lights, now knew exactly what he saw in front of him a Russian hospital ship, and no other. Accordingly, Vice Admiral Z.P. Rozhestvensky, ordering his hospital ships to light all the lights, did not just “light up” the latter, but also, one could say, made every effort to ensure that the Japanese accurately identified them, without confusing “Kostroma” and “Orel”, say, with what some commercial vehicles.

But why then was it to turn on the lights?


Of course, all of the above sounds highly absurd. However, the whole story Transition 2 th Pacific squadron shows that the Russian commander was not inclined to absurd decisions. He could be mistaken in something, but his orders always had a basis, and were logical.

Let's first ask ourselves the question - why bother with Z.P. Rozhestvensky took with him to the breakthrough and into the battle hospital ships? In the campaign, they certainly were useful to him, serving as such floating hospitals with a large squadron, which was especially valuable in conditions when berthing in the ports was impossible for Russian ships. But Vladivostok was not so far away, and there were doctors of their own, so why would Z.P. Rozhdestvensky did not send "Eagle" and "Kostroma", along with other transports to Shanghai? Or, if we assume that medical facilities in Vladivostok were not sufficient to support the actions of the Russian squadron, then one could send “Orla” and “Kostroma” by another route, for example, around Japan. Their status would allow them to reach Vladivostok much more reliably than they could have done in the squadron, because in the heat of battle they could be mistakenly opened fire.

It is impossible to give an exact answer to this question, but most likely this was the case. As you know, the chances of the Russian squadron to go to Vladivostok without a general battle with the Japanese fleet were minimal, if not illusory. In the testimony of the Investigative Commission, he stated: “I expected that the squadron would meet in the Korean Channel or near the concentrated forces of the Japanese fleet, a significant proportion of armored and light cruisers and the entire mine fleet. I was sure that in the afternoon there will be a general battle. ” It is absolutely known that ZP Rozhdestvensky did not count, but did not expect a complete defeat: "... I could not allow myself to think about the complete extermination of the squadron, but, by analogy with the battle on July 28, 1904, I had reason to consider it possible to reach Vladivostok with the loss of several ships." In other words, the Russian commander expected a battle and serious losses, damage to warships, but a large number of wounded always accompanied this. At the same time, the medical assistance that the medical services of warships could provide them was obviously insufficient. Of course, ship's doctors were highly qualified specialists, but they were trite in the state. In addition, various military injuries can greatly interfere with the work of doctors: there are fires in the area of ​​the "hospital", interruptions in clean or hot water, de-energized compartments, etc. including, finally, the death of the ship.

In general, it can be assumed that the presence of hospital ships, even with certain difficulties in transferring the wounded to them after the battle, could save many lives. Or, at least, Z.P. Rozhdestvensky. For many dear readers, with a light hand AS Novikov-Priboy and V.P. Kostenko, accustomed to perceive the commander of the Russian squadron as a petty tyrant and a satrap who despises and does not care at all about his subordinates, such a viewpoint may turn out to be too unusual. But you need to understand that this image of the Vice-Admiral was very convenient for explaining the defeat in the Tsushima battle and was great as an allegory for the "rotten Tsarist regime." It is such a Z.P. Rozhdestvensky was in demand - cruel, cowardly and narrow-minded, so Soviet readers got it. Although the real Zinovy ​​Petrovich, of course, was very different from his caricature and popular prints in the same Tsushima of A.S. Novikova-Surf.

But, maybe, the vice admiral could have some other motives to lead hospital ships with him? The author thought a lot about this topic, but did not find anything worthy of attention. Perhaps some versions will be able to offer dear readers?

To the question whether Z.P. Rozhestvensky to separate hospital vessels from the squadron in order to meet them later, on the way to Vladivostok, should be answered in the negative. No one could know how the battle would go, where and at what time the squadron would be after the breakthrough, which means it was almost impossible to assign a rendezvous point.

So, we conclude that Z.P. Rozhdestvensky had reasonable grounds to lead hospital vessels with the squadron. In fact, of course, this was an erroneous decision, because the squadron understood the rout, but the Kostroma and the Eagle did not help the Russian ships, but were intercepted and detained by the Japanese. But it is known today, and then, before the battle, it was not obvious. Yet Z.P. Rozhestvensky assumed that the squadron, although having been defeated, would pass to Vladivostok.

But the decision was made - but how best to do it? It was possible to put hospital ships along with transports under the protection of warships and order them to turn off all the lights. But this created increased risks for them, because if the Japanese had nevertheless discovered the squadron and attacked it, then Kostroma and Oryol could suffer. So, Z.P. Rozhestvensky ordered them to carry absolutely all the lights, but ... at the same time separated them from the squadron.

The fact is that, there is reason to believe that, contrary to popular belief, the Eagle and Kostroma should not have gone directly behind the squadron ships, but had orders to be at a considerable distance from it. So, the commander of the squadron battleship "Sisoy the Great" M.V. In his report, Ozerov pointed out: “At night, the squadron went with reduced to the extreme, light intensity, colored lights, without opening the top ships and only hospital ships lagging behind at night on 40 — the 50 cab., Carried all lights installed for navigation” . The captain of the 2 rank Vl wrote about the same thing. Semenov: “Our squadron was opened for the first time only in 4 hours of 30 minutes in the morning of 14 May, when in the thinning fog of Shinano Maru came across our hospital ships that went 5 miles behind the squadron, and opened a squadron through them.” Moreover, Vl. Semenov argued that "Eagle" and "Kostroma" received a direct order from Z.P. Rozhdestvensky to go at night on 6 miles behind the squadron, although the author of this article did not find documentary evidence of the existence of such an order.

Suppose that “Eagle” and “Kostroma” were not in a squadron formation, but in 4-6 miles behind the squadron. What does this mean? Of course, the burning lights made the ship or vessel more visible at night, but, of course, they did not turn it into the Lighthouse of Alexandria. Unfortunately, the official Japanese historiography does not contain information on how far the Shinano Maru was discovered by the hospital ship Eagle, but V.V. Tsybulko in the “Unread Pages of Tsushima” states that from a distance of 3 miles, that is a little more than 5,5 km. At the same time, according to Japanese reports, the visibility was such that an unlit ship could be seen from approximately 1,5 km — it was from this distance that the Shinano Maru found 2 and 3 Pacific squadrons.

And a very simple conclusion follows from this: the Japanese patrol ship or ship could, of course, detect the main forces of the Russian squadron, or hospital ships — but not both. We will put ourselves in the place of the Russian commander and consider what this could give him.

Suppose that on the day of May 13, the Japanese nevertheless discovered the Russian squadron - this probability should have been taken into account, due to the noticeably increased radio traffic of the Japanese, and ZP Rozhestvensky admitted it. Then the Japanese could well and even should have sent their mine-carrying units into the attack when night fell. Their attacks would have exhausted the crews before the start of the battle, and if successful, they would have been able to torpedo one or more warships, thereby weakening the strength of the Russian squadron.

But if the Japanese destroyers found out the main forces of the Russians, the hospital vessels traveling in the distance would have nothing to do with this, since their lights would not be visible from such a distance. In this case, the battle with the destroyers, of course, would take place, however, the Eagle and Kostroma were not exposed to any danger. And if the Japanese destroyers, on the contrary, found hospital ships, then next to them there were no warships that they could attack. The Japanese would probably have figured out that the Russian squadron was somewhere nearby, but in any case they would have spent some time “clarifying” the hospital courts, they would have to figure out who was likely to follow them in front of them, and all this would take them precious time. And additional gaff lights contributed to the correct identification of the “Eagle” and the “Kostroma”, reducing the likelihood of being confused, for example, with auxiliary Russian cruisers and attacking.

Now consider another option - the Japanese did not see the Russian 13 in May. In this case, again, their patrol ship or vessel would have stumbled upon the main Russian forces, hospital ships had nothing to do with it. Well, if the hospital ships were discovered, well, the Japanese would have to think about where the main Russian forces are.

The presence of two lonely illuminated "Christmas trees" seems like some kind of military trick, to the desire to prompt the Commander of the United Fleet that the Russian squadron is near, but is it really near? There is no doubt that if the Japanese watchman had found the Eagle or Kostroma, he would have spent some time tracking them, perhaps he tried to hold them up for inspection, but he could find out the main forces going 5-6 miles ahead. in theory, he could not. Accordingly, in the event of the discovery of hospital ships, X. Togo should not have yet to withdraw the main forces at sea, fearing some tricks: he should have sent additional cruisers to the area to clarify the situation. But it would be already in the morning or in the morning, and they still need time to establish contact - and the fact that the battle of 14 will take place in the afternoon, ZP Rozhestvensky was absolutely convinced.

Thus, it turns out that the separation of "Eagle" and "Kostroma" from the squadron on the night from 13 to 14 July looks like the best solution in case the Japanese attempt mine attacks. But if the Japanese had not yet seen the Russian squadron, the discovery of hospital ships could have led to the fact that the main forces of the Russian squadron would be discovered a few hours earlier. On the one hand, it would seem that the later the Japanese would have noticed the Russian 14 in May, the better it would have been for ZP. Rozhdestvensky, so for the general battle would be less time left. But ... was the win of several hours so significant? Indeed, from the point of view of the Russian commander, the Japanese could calmly give the battle not at all to 14, but to 15 in May, if, for example, they discovered the Russians of 14 late at night.

It is known that Z.P. Rozhestvensky believed the general battle was inevitable, and from its results he hoped to break through, losing some ships. Apparently (although the vice-admiral did not speak directly about this), he still hoped to inflict such damage on the Japanese that would prevent them from resuming the battle the next day. In this case, a few extra hours did not solve anything, in general. Moreover, oddly enough, but there is no firm conviction that it would be in the interest of ZP to delay the battle with 14 on 15. Rozhdestvensky. On the night from 13 to 14 in May, he had excellent chances to avoid destroyer attacks if they were undertaken, but in the afternoon of 14 in May his squadron should have been noticed with the highest degree of probability. And if this had happened in the evening, when the main forces no longer had time to fight, X. Togo would have sent to the mass of its destroyers in the night from 14 to 15. In this case, the Russians could have suffered sensitive losses even before the start of the battle of the main forces, so that the Russian squadron entered the general battle weakened.

Thus, given the knowledge and data that Zinovy ​​Petrovich had at the time of making the decision, from his point of view, this step could look quite logical and reasonable.

“Well, well,” the respected reader will say: “The author has a great idea of ​​the reasons for the commander, but why did all this not work?”

What happened after all?


Let's first take a look at how the Japanese officialdom describes the opening of the Russian squadron. For the convenience of the reader, Russian time will be indicated everywhere, which in the Korean Strait lagged behind the Japanese by 20 minutes.

So, on the night of May 14, on the Japanese auxiliary cruiser Shinano-Maru, on 02.25, the lights of a steamboat going east were noticed, and this ship was from the Shinano Maru also in the east. In fact, the Russian squadron “slipped” past this auxiliary cruiser, as it was going to the northeast, and if the vessel had not seen the lights, it would not have been noticed by the Shinano Maru.

The captain of the 2 rank, Narikawa, the commander of the Shinano Maru, of course, wanted to find out who he had discovered. But it was not so easy to understand, because the unknown vessel was on the background of the month, and it was difficult to observe it. Therefore, the Japanese auxiliary cruiser set off in pursuit.

According to Japanese historiography, the Shinano-Maru was able to go abreast of an unknown vessel only on 4.10, that is, only 1 an hour 45 minutes after its detection. It looks strange because the Russian squadron on the night of May 14 was on 8 nodes, and the Japanese auxiliary cruiser was a newly built (1900 g) commercial vessel with a maximum speed of 15,4 node.


"Shinano Maru"


Assuming that V.V. Tsibulko is right that the Shinano-Maru found the Russian ship approximately 3 miles, that it should have been circumvented in an arc and approached, keeping a distance of more than 1,5 km, and that the Japanese cruiser most likely did not give full speed, but went somewhere on 12 nodes, it would still take him a little less time. However, it is possible that Narikawa just cautious?

Approaching the Russian ship on the left in 04.10, the Shinano Maru identified it as a three-mast and two-tube vessel, similar to the auxiliary cruiser Dnepr. The Japanese came a little closer, but did not see the mounted guns, and therefore correctly assumed that they were seeing a hospital ship in front of them. At the same time, the Russians, in the opinion of the Japanese, noticed the Shinano-Maru and began signaling something with an electric lantern, however, Narikawa was not sure about that. From this it could follow that on the hospital ship they confused the Shinano-Maru with another Russian ship, from which, in turn, it followed that they, these ships, were somewhere nearby. The commander of the Japanese auxiliary cruiser ordered to carefully inspect the horizon, and in 04.25: “I saw several dozen ships ahead of me and from the left side at a distance of no more than 1 500.” Then the "Shinano Maru" turned away, and it is not even clear which way: unfortunately, the official Japanese history does not contain information that allows us to determine with any certainty the further maneuvering of this ship. What is known for sure is that the Shinano Maru, despite its maneuvers, continued to monitor the Russian ships, but 05.00 lost sight of the squadron and was able to restore contact only after 45 minutes, in 05.45.

And what about the Russians? Most likely, on the "Eagle" "Shinano-Maru" all this time remained unnoticed.


Hospital ship "Eagle"


It is believed that the Japanese auxiliary cruiser was found around 5 in the morning on the Orel, but the author of this article has great doubts about this. The fact is that midshipman Shcherbachev 4, who is on the Orel, reported that a Japanese steamer was seen from a hospital ship on the right, at a distance of 40 cables, while he was approaching. But if the Shinano-Maru was to the left of the Eagle in 04.25, and no less than the 7-10 cable, then it is extremely doubtful that he could be four miles to the right after half an hour.

Moreover. If we assume that the Shinano Maru approached the Eagle on the left, then where was Kostroma at that time? According to her commander’s report:

“20 minutes past four o'clock in the morning, the 10 cabled stern 4 of enemy cruisers, having a course Zuyd, were detected from the vessel. He waited a few minutes and, as soon as they disappeared into the darkness, he raised the signal of what he had seen; and, making sure that the signal was not seen, the Ural cruiser caught up ahead of me, and the flag waving conveyed this information, which was transmitted further by the Ural. ”


What conclusions can be drawn from this extremely fragmented information?

Suppose the commander of the Shinano Maru was not mistaken. But then it turns out that by the time his auxiliary cruiser was abolished by the Eagle, the main forces of the Russian squadron were both from the hospital ship and from the Shinano Maru no more than a mile away. And this suggests that at night our hospital vessels, or at least one of them (it’s still possible that Narikawa didn’t find “Eagle” but “Kostroma”) violated Z.P. Rozhdestvensky and approached the squadron close. In this case, the blame for the discovery of the Russian squadron lies with the commander (s?) Of the hospital ships that violated the order they received.

Option two - both Kostroma and Eagle honestly followed the instructions given to them and followed in 5-6 miles along the stern of the Russian squadron. In this case, it turns out that, going to the traverse of the “Eagle”, Narikawa was mistaken: he considered that he was seeing the Russian squadron, which he could not see physically. The only ship that he could observe, being close to the Eagle, was the hospital ship Kostroma! And then, alas, the tragedy of mistakes began. On the “Kostroma”, “seeing” the 4 of the Japanese cruisers and having lost sight of them, for some reason, they rushed to catch up with the squadron. To be honest, most of all it comes to mind that at Kostroma they were simply frightened and ran under the protection of warships. And “Shinano-Maru”, believing that he was following the Russian squadron, was actually following “Kostroma”, which, ultimately, brought him to the main forces of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky ... Although the Japanese auxiliary cruiser had lost sight of the Kostroma near 05.00, but knowing the course it was following and which coincided with the course of the main forces of Z.P. Rozhestvensky, later managed to catch up with them. Then the real time of the discovery of the Russian squadron is 05.45, and this happened thanks to the illiterate actions of the Kostroma commander.

As for the evaluation of the actions of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky, it turns out like this. His decision to take hospital ships with him, although it was erroneous, but at that time looked logical and, apparently, was dictated by concern for the health of the squadron personnel. The risks of premature detection of the main squadron forces, as well as the danger of being subjected to a bearing attack, were minimized by ordering hospital ships to keep behind the squadron. However, the plans of the commander were violated by the wrong actions of the commanders of the "Eagle" and "Kostroma" or Kostroma alone.

And in any case, it can only be stated that the circumstances of the discovery of the Russian squadron on the night from 13 to 14 in May and to this day remain unclear and require additional research.
336 comments
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  1. +3
    April 26 2019 18: 58
    Thanks Andrew hi
    1. +6
      April 26 2019 19: 33
      Hmm, I don’t know! I think that even if Rozhdestvensky had similar plans to mislead Togo, hospital courts had to go with 10-15 miles behind and a parallel course, and not the squadron cleaver.
      On the other hand, it was necessary to give the captains of Kostroma and Orel specific orders where to point out maneuvers if they were discovered! Alas, this has not been done!
      Regards, Vlad!
      1. +3
        April 26 2019 23: 11
        Alas, this has not been done!


        best epigraph in the description of the REV)
      2. -2
        April 27 2019 13: 38
        As far as I know, the Eagle was FIRST at first lost, left alone, and only WHY turned on the lights.

        What are the "orders"? The fact that Eagle's logbook says "received a signal to turn on the lights" is "you never know who wrote what"? Are there records that such a signal was given in the logbooks of other ships?

        My opinion: someone on Orel was paid - so he got "lost" and turned up the lights. And there is no need to look for any third meanings.

        The level of treason in Russia in the RYAV was simply monstrous --- so it is surprising that there was a traitor on Orel? "A donkey laden with gold opens the gates of any city"
    2. +5
      April 27 2019 08: 08
      I read a lot about Tsushima. The general impression is some kind of nonsense. There was not a single possible stupidity that RI did not do.
      1. +1
        April 27 2019 13: 39
        Yes, yes - you were not here and heaped up affairs.

        With an unbiased analysis, it is impossible to see ANY "stupidity".
        But here is treason - here are treason as many
        1. 0
          April 27 2019 19: 16
          Quote: AK64
          Yes, yes - you were not here and heaped up affairs.

          With an unbiased analysis, it is impossible to see ANY "stupidity".
          But here is treason - here are treason as many

          Betrayal is conscious stupidity. Your counterpart is right, however.
          1. 0
            April 27 2019 19: 24
            Betrayal is conscious stupidity. Your counterpart is right, however.


            Betrayal is not stupid - betrayal is a deliberate crime. Do you understand the difference between crime, negligence and stupidity?

            Moreover: the betrayals were not committed at the squadron (although there are also dubious moments there --- and the Eagle’s illumination is one of those), but in completely different places by other people.

            Well, "my counterpart" (as you have pleased to put it), and you, too, are simply Russophobes: it gives you pleasure to ascribe stupidity to the Russians. So there was no nonsense there.
  2. -1
    April 26 2019 19: 51
    And anyone - a reference to "Actions of the Imperial Navy in the Meiji Era" to me
    will not send?
  3. -4
    April 26 2019 20: 12
    By the way, the scheme of the movement of the squadron, reduced to movement in a compact order,
    completely does not explain why the head of the squadron advanced and was sunk
    "Oslyabya".
    1. +6
      April 27 2019 00: 25
      1. The next day, the squadron was already in a different order.
      2. "Oslyabya" did not move into the head of the squadron. He was the lead battleship of the second armored detachment and, obeying the orders of the flagship, tried to enter the first detachment in the wake, for which he was forced to stall the course. Thus, Oslyabya became an easy target for the Japanese and quickly died.
      In my opinion, his death is wholly and completely on the conscience of the CRA, who started the belated rebuilding of his ships under enemy fire. And the root cause of this situation was the lack of intelligence in front of the main forces.
      However, Andrei promised to analyze this issue in one of the following articles ...
      1. -3
        April 27 2019 13: 41
        In my opinion, his death is wholly and completely on the conscience of the CRA, who started the belated rebuilding of his ships under enemy fire. And the root cause of this situation was the lack of intelligence in front of the main forces.


        Yeah - intelligence to quickly find.
        Rozhdestvensky acted perfectly perfectly. All his actions are perfectly reasonable and correct. They are far more correct than the actions of Togo.
      2. -1
        3 May 2019 17: 41
        Quote: Ivanchester
        tried to join the wake of the first detachment, for which he was forced to stall. Thus, Oslyabya became an easy target for the Japanese and quickly died.

        Well, wow. Stopped the move, "became an easy target and died."
        But it’s nothing that when passing the U-turn loop, almost all Japanese ships actually seemed to stall and become targets for some time. And not one of them died. So maybe the thing with Oslyaby was different?
        1. +2
          4 May 2019 16: 40
          So, in fact, most of the hits in Japanese ships were just at the beginning of the battle, when they made a turn. If 1) the quality of Russian shells were comparable to Japanese and 2) Admiral Rozhestvensky would teach his ships not to shoot all at once, but after completing the flagship shooting, then the result of the battle would be different.
          PS Specifically, due to the circumstances of the death of the Oslyabya EDB, do you have any objections?
    2. 0
      April 27 2019 11: 24
      Quote: Private SA
      By the way, the scheme of the movement of the squadron, reduced to movement in a compact order,
      does not explain at all

      And it should not, since it is a marching system, and then it was deployed in battle order
      1. +2
        April 27 2019 14: 19
        By the way, the scheme of the movement of the squadron, reduced to movement in a compact order,
        completely does not explain.


        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And it should not, since it is a marching system, and then it was deployed in battle order


        Fred T. Jane, founder and editor-in-chief of All the World's Fighting Ships, described his view of the formation of the Russian squadron;

        ".......Russian intelligence indicated that the Japanese fleet was in the Formosa area (Taiwan), as the Russians now claim it was misinformation. In any case, the Russian squadron, when it entered the Tsushima Strait, believed that the bulk of the Japanese fleet was behind it, and the path to Vladivostok was blocked only by a certain number of destroyers and cruisers, through which in the fog he had a good chance to go unnoticed. The formation of the squadron by Admiral Rozhestvensky, in two battle ranks, was sufficiently justified, given the attacks of only small vessels, but this construction was so hopelessly bad against the attack of the naval fleet that this in itself is proof that he did not expect to meet Togo. The Russians say that the sudden discovery that they encountered the Japanese fleet stunned them..... "

        So it is or not difficult to say in his book where this text comes from. Fred T. Jane does not provide links or indications to any specific documents where this information was received from.
        1. +3
          April 27 2019 19: 17
          this in itself is proof that he did not expect to meet Togo


          Jane, of course, well done, a very interesting quote, but Rozhestvensky already knew about the upcoming meeting with Togo. I don’t feel like it, but I have to believe that Rozhestvensky had no plan at all for the fight. Although, how this may not fit in my head.
          1. 0
            April 30 2019 14: 03
            Rozhdestvensky was a bad teacher, in my opinion. Therefore, his ideas were poorly executed. And the officers and admirals of the squadron were mostly demoralized. A simple example, about the fact that the second detachment was led by the CRC, Baer knew only at the headquarters of Rozhestvensky, which then affected during the battle. Rozhestvensky’s action plan was and the squadron retained control until the very end, but there were many problems with the implementation.
            1. +1
              April 30 2019 14: 30
              It seems to me that this is not so much a jamb of ZPR, as a systemic disease of the very structure of the fleet, which, unfortunately, was not sufficiently engaged in its main business - preparing for war in any situation and with any enemy. Just the end of the company in the winter is worth ... And if in the Baltic it can somehow be explained by the ice conditions, then why did ITOE leave "for winter apartments" for me a mystery covered in darkness.
              1. +1
                3 May 2019 14: 08
                Why did ITOE go to "winter apartments" for me a mystery covered in darkness.


                Because Syu was preparing Russia for war (and defeat). That's why.
                He cut the money down and convinced Nikolai that "there would be no war for anything."
            2. +1
              3 May 2019 14: 06
              A simple example, about the fact that the second detachment was led by the CRC, Baer knew only at the headquarters of Rozhestvensky, which then affected during the battle.


              Not everything is as simple as you think. Why are you not surprised by the simple fact that Rozhestvensky had only ONE admiral in submission (I do not consider Enquist because he had his own detachment). Falkersam died from the hardships of the campaign (which best shows how difficult it was for Rozhdestvensky too). And to whom to lead the second detachment?
              Maybe Rozhestvensky had 8 admirals in stock?

              Would have thought better --- why did Rozhdestvensky only have one admiral?
  4. +5
    April 26 2019 20: 37
    Andrei Nikolaevich, you have ALL the work interesting, but the stories on the history of the fleet are SUPER.
    Rozhdestvensky’s decision to take hospital ships is logically justified.
    Andrey Nikolaevich, on the whole I understand and recognize your logic, but I can't catch up with Kostroma. Why was the captain of the "Kostroma" scared of the Japanese, after all, the hospital ships were UNCOMPLETE and the captain of the "Kostroma" knew it well
    1. +1
      April 26 2019 21: 38
      Why was the captain of "Kostroma" scared of the Japanese, after all, hospital ships ...

      What scared and caught up only assumption the author, as well as many other things in statistics. For instance:...
    2. +3
      April 27 2019 11: 19
      Quote: vladcub
      Why was the captain of the "Kostroma" scared of the Japanese, after all, the hospital ships were UNCOMPLETE and the captain of the "Kostroma" knew it well

      inviolability is not a guarantee of security, alas. The Japanese can respect the laws, and may not respect, sink and then refer to chance, etc. But yes, these are only assumptions.
  5. +2
    April 26 2019 21: 18
    The second point relates to how the historiographer conveys information about the lights of hospital ships to the commission members. He inspires them with the idea that the Oryol and Kostroma turned on their lights independently (according to the decisions of the ship commanders), allegedly having no right to turn off these lights, the squadron commander, in the interests of maintaining its secrecy, was forced to increase the distance of hospital ships from the end ship of the squadron.
    Third point. IN AND. Semenov, informing the members of the commission of the situation before the battle, fixes their attention on the position of the hospital ships "far behind" the squadron. At the same time, he does not say anything about the possibility of their capture by the Japanese. The reference to the overly correct actions of the hospital ships did not help them to avoid capture. Before the battle in the afternoon, the hospital ships did not unmask the squadron, and in order to avoid capture by enemy ships, they should have been returned to the squadron and protected from the seizure actions of Japanese ships.
    Andrey Nikolaevich, on the whole I understand and recognize your logic, but I can't catch up with Kostroma. Why was the captain of the "Kostroma" scared of the Japanese, after all, the hospital ships were UNCOMPLETE and the captain of the "Kostroma" knew it well

    Well, let's see what happened next - shelling, seizure ... Inspection (examination) of a hospital ship, inquiry and investigation into the case, a prize court that confiscated a hospital ship ..
    The shelling of the Eagle by Japanese warships is a flagrant violation of the Hague Convention on the Inviolability of Hospital Ships. Doctor L.K. Gaiman tells how he, talking with the Japanese officers who inspected the Eagle, condemned the commanders of the shooting ships. But his interlocutors, who knew the provisions of the Hague Convention, sided with the shooters. They referred to an order from Admiral Togo, issued six days before the battle, which allowed shooting at hospital ships "as hidden scouts."
    Preventing the "Eagle" from entering the area for rescuing drowning people made it possible to give the appearance of legitimacy to the actions to capture it
    to replace the accusation of "Eagle" in the conduct of intelligence with the fact of violation of the convention, consisting in the presence of foreign sailors on the ship. This saw the use of a hospital ship for military purposes (finding the British)
    Yes, you can blame a hospital vessel for anything, even for the transportation of nitrate in a medicine bank, to staff and intelligence. And to fire, be healthy.
    The same Kostroma
    "Kostroma" was detained on the basis of many suspicions, but only three violations of the Hague Convention are indicated: the appointment of hospital residents on battleships, the installation of a wireless telegraph on the ship (subsequently removed), the coloring of the stripe along the side of the ship in red rather than green

    the blouse did not like ..
    hospital ships "Kazan", "Angara" and "Orel" Kostroma .... seized ...
    grounds are not important. War. Conventions end when guns say ..
    1. +1
      April 27 2019 15: 19
      Honestly, I thought that the yaps were more decent, but in kind, NWO.
  6. +14
    April 26 2019 22: 02
    For many esteemed readers, with a light hand A.S. Novikov-Priboy and V.P. Kostenko, accustomed to perceiving the commander of the Russian squadron as a tyrant and satrap, despising and completely not caring for his subordinates, this point of view may be too unusual. But you need to understand that such an image of the vice admiral was very convenient for explaining the defeat in the Tsushima battle and perfectly fit as an allegory to the “rotten tsarist regime”. Just such a Z.P. Rozhdestvensky was in demand - cruel, cowardly and narrow-minded, so the Soviet readers got it. Although the real Zinovy ​​Petrovich, of course, was very different from his caricature-popular print in the same Tsushima A.S. Novikov-Priboy.

    How lovely! In the middle of spring, our friend from Chelyabinsk suddenly fell into a romantic mood and again, tenderly clinging to his fantasies! The tale of a wise, kind and noble admiral is so cool!

    Unfortunately, you have to screw it to the ground and recall what he himself knows, but prefers to remain silent. All the bad that is said about the wing-adjutant Rozhdestvensky is true. Rozhdestvensky fleet officers despised!

    And this is known not only from the words of Novikov, but primarily from the letters of the same officers to relatives, often their last letters.

    Rear Admiral Nebogatov:
    "Many commanders in the language of the admiral had nicknames bordering on areal abuse, and the admiral was not at all shy about using these nicknames loudly on the upper deck in the presence of ship's officers and crew."


    mechanical engineer A.N. Mikhailov, Navarin:
    "Rozhdestvensky's anger was indescribable. When this happens to him, he jumps out onto the deck, and at first wild sounds erupt from his chest, like a beast;" oo-oo-oo ... "or" oo-oo-oo - ". It seems to those present that this roar should be heard throughout the squadron. And then selective swearing begins."


    mechanical engineer P.S. Fedyushin, Suvorov:
    "This is a very harsh and fierce gentleman. Every day, there is a new arrest for one of the officers, and for the most insignificant actions. His name is here (not good)"


    Lieutenant Baron Kosinsky, Oslyabya:
    "... Rozhdestvensky's fury, invisible to us, becomes perceptible, because the telegraph and semaphores work continuously day and night. Rarely are the Suvorov masts, although for a few minutes, flags remain without signals - and almost exclusively reprimands and threats, reprimands and threats"


    Lieutenant Vyrubov, Suvorov:
    "The admiral has not been on other ships since leaving Russia ... He considers commanders to become officers as scoundrels and swindlers ... The admiral continues to tyrannize and make gross mistakes. We have all become disillusioned with him for a long time and do not expect anything worthwhile from him. This is a product of the modern regime, and even heavily inflated by advertising. His career is purely accidental. Maybe he is a good courtier, but as a naval commander, he is worthless "


    Senior gunner, lieutenant P.E. Vladimirsky, Suvorov:
    “The admiral, it seems, will soon be completely asleep: at night everyone fancies rockets, that is, that destroyers are attacking, and in dealing with his subordinates he got to the point that he grabbed one destroyer commander, a captain of the 2nd rank, by the collar. will start biting soon "


    And again, a cherry on the cake, from the most Christmas! From a letter to his wife from Nossi-Bae on March 31:
    "I completely exhausted the colonga, it happens to cry"


    Unfortunately for Russia, the wing-admiral Rozhestvensky was really a classic, almost cinematic careerist and tyrant. The king is ready to lick his feet, like a dog tracking every look. And then he came off on his subordinates, publicly wiping his feet with or without cause. Full zero as a naval commander. Nothing flashed as an organizer. But our fans of French rolls, like Andrei, painstakingly draw wings and a halo for him. Pinkish color.

    And I strongly recommend reading the famous book of Novikov-Surf "Tsushima" to everyone who accidentally missed it. For many, it became the main reason for interest in the events of the already distant but so similar and close to today's problems of the Russian-Japanese war.

    militera.lib.ru/prose/russian/novikov-priboy/index.html

    I myself recently re-read it with pleasure.
    1. +12
      April 26 2019 23: 08
      Dear colleague, plus!

      All the bad that is said about the wing-adjutant Rozhdestvensky is true.


      there is a lot of negative opinions about every big boss, finding a bunch of negative reviews is not a problem - I’m not ready to fully support it, SO

      I'm used to speaking the language of facts, for example:

      I did not take experienced sailors from the Black Sea Fleet = a clinical case
      did not explain to the king of the adventure = a clinical case
      left on the battleships before the boat life = clinical case
      maneuvered so that "Oslyabya" got up = clinical case
      did not try to shy away from head coverage = clinical case
      and so on, wherever you spit, the clinic is everywhere

      french loaf fans
      laughing

      Here + 100500 good
      1. +6
        April 27 2019 03: 06
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        I did not take experienced sailors from the Black Sea Fleet = a clinical case

        Dear colleague, here you are not quite right. Did Zinovy ​​Petrovich have enough power and authority to just so easily claim the Black Sea ships and pick up everyone he wanted?
        Let's not forget that the Black Sea Fleet already gave everyone he could to Rozhestvensky’s squadron.
        The problem was that the Black Sea Fleet itself experienced personnel "hunger". For example, at the time of the beginning of the uprising of the lower ranks, there were 781 people on the "Prince Potemkin-Tavrichesky", of which only eighty had previously served on other ships of the Black Sea Fleet (mainly on non-combat ships like the transport "Berezan").
        30% of the remaining are conscripts of 1904, the rest - primarily students of stokers and machinists - arrived in the fleet in the spring of 1905.
        And then, everything is relative. On the ships of the 1-th Pacific Squadron, only 96 senior boatswain and conductors served, and Rozhestvensky on each battleship squadron managed to collect 12-16 conductors.
        The facts are that the ships of the 2nd Pacific Squadron were manned and equipped with the same Barra and Struda rangefinders in a way that others never dreamed of.
        1. 0
          April 27 2019 10: 15
          Good morning, dear colleague!

          the ships of the 2nd Pacific Squadron were manned and equipped with the same Barra and Struda rangefinders, as others never dreamed of.


          maybe I have a superficial idea of ​​the topic: I'm just used to the canonical "7 percent free kicks"

          If you help to figure it out - it will be super.
          1. 0
            April 28 2019 05: 11
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            maybe I have a superficial idea of ​​the topic: I just got used to the canonical "7 percent penalty" If you help me figure it out, it will be super

            Sorry if I’m thinking hard, but I don’t understand what I mean?
            1. 0
              April 28 2019 09: 34
              dear colleague, I’m probably not much on the topic of manning the 2nd TOE (VTE), but I had a few thoughts, such as: on the one hand there were a lot of instructors from the training unit, on the other hand, they wrote off a huge amount fines (about 7 percent of the total number of sailors), just sailors whom other crews wanted to get rid of / did not take, if there are numbers and considerations for manning - I will be grateful
              1. +2
                April 28 2019 17: 36
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                on the one hand there were a lot of instructors from the training squad, on the other hand, there were written off a huge number of fines

                Dear colleague, fined sailor and bad Sailor concepts are not identical.
                I have a good friend who went through an emergency in the Northern Fleet, on a nuclear missile submarine. In a military campaign, he told me, all of us were engrossed in excitement, we all climbed out of our skin to adequately fulfill the combat mission and to return to the base with honor. When everything worked out, we, says, were terribly proud of it. So many years have passed, and today, on the day of the Soviet Navy, he hangs a flag on the balcony (they brought him from St. Petersburg).
                Well, on the shore, when there was no entertainment around, the boys all happened. The guys got rid of stress and had fun as they could. If caught, then the punishment was assigned. I repeat, this does not mean that during the military campaign they drank, hooligans and fought.

                Regarding the notorious seven percent, then, without seeing a documentary source, nothing definite can be said. It is likely that this is just a democratic myth, like the armored belts of Russian squadron battleships that went under water.
                1. 0
                  April 28 2019 17: 51
                  a fine sailor and a bad sailor are not identical

                  I do not argue, I myself am so

                  it's just a democratic myth

                  maybe a myth, but I quote Novikov:
                  "So far, the lower ranks were closer to me. Many sailors were called up from the reserve. These elderly people, clearly weaned from the naval service, lived with memories of their homeland, were sick of separation from home, from children, from a wife. The war fell on them unexpectedly, like a terrible disaster, and they, preparing for an unprecedented campaign, performed work with a gloomy, strangled look. The team included many recruits. Stunned and miserable, they looked at everything with frozen horror in their eyes. They were frightened by the sea, on which they hit for the first time, and even more - an unknown future. Even among the career sailors who graduated from various special schools, there was no usual fun. Only penalties, in contrast to the rest, were more or less cheerful. The coastal authorities, in order to get rid of them as harmful element, came up with the easiest way to do this: write them off to ships going to war. Thus, to the dismay of the senior officer, we have accumulated up to seven percent of them. "
                  This is probably the primary source of this information. Novikov must be checked. I have an opportunity?
                2. +1
                  April 28 2019 18: 22
                  About the Black Sea Fleet the same is not all one-to-one, for example:

                  "Question 15. Did the Squadron Commander raise the question of replacing the reserve sailors in the 2nd squadron with younger sailors on active duty?"
                  Answer. I did not raise the question of replacing the sailors called up for the 2nd squadron from the reserve by younger sailors on active service. "
        2. +1
          April 28 2019 18: 24
          Quote: Comrade
          Did Zinovy ​​Petrovich have enough power and authority to just so easily claim the Black Sea ships and pick up everyone he wanted?

          Of course I did! You did not forget by chance that the ZPR was the chief of the Main Naval Staff of Russia at that time ?? It’s strange that you don’t know such obvious details ..
          1. +2
            April 28 2019 19: 13
            Quote: Saxahorse
            Did you remember that the ZPR was the Chief of the Main Naval Staff of Russia at that time ??

            And by chance, you did not forget the authority of the head of the GMG at that moment, dreamer. Are you our rampant?
            1. +4
              April 28 2019 23: 42
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              And by chance, you did not forget the authority of the head of the secondary school at that time.

              How can you forget what you do not know?
              1. +2
                April 29 2019 18: 03
                Quote: Comrade
                How can you forget what you do not know?

                So easy! "I didn't know, I didn't know, and I forgot" (c) laughing
      2. +1
        April 27 2019 11: 22
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        I did not take experienced sailors from the Black Sea Fleet = a clinical case
        did not explain to the king of the adventure = a clinical case
        left on the battleships before the boat life = clinical case
        maneuvered so that "Oslyabya" got up = clinical case
        did not try to shy away from head coverage = clinical case

        Andrew, I'm sorry, but the language and asks to continue:
        "carried such nonsense on the Internet - a clinical case"

        Of course, I will not tell you this, but .... Do you know anything about Tsushima? :)))
        1. +2
          April 27 2019 12: 44
          Yes I know. The match is lost with a score of 0: 12. Bulkokhrusty can write anything, but "the result is on the scoreboard" (c)
          1. -1
            April 27 2019 16: 08
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            Yes I know. The match is played with an 0: 12 score. Balkhawks can write anything

            Yeah :))) According to your "logic" it turns out like this: the Wehrmacht is worth nothing, preparation is bad, materiel is terrible, mediocrity was in charge ... well, of course, they merged in 1945 in Berlin! laughing
            1. 0
              April 27 2019 19: 12
              No, not a drop)
              1. By my logic, the Wehrmacht fought skillfully and bravely for several years in a row.
              2. VTE - suffered, about which they wiped their feet in a day.
              3. “Matrosikov” is humanly very sorry, but see point 2.
              1. +2
                April 28 2019 11: 30
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                According to my logic, the Wehrmacht fought skillfully and bravely for several years in a row.

                Of course, the fact that 2TOE skillfully and bravely fought during the first hours of the battle (hereinafter - simply bravely) hid from you.
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                VTE - tolerated, about which a day wiped his feet.

                It sounds biting, but how many truths in this statement? A naval battle usually lasts several hours, a war lasts several years. At first, the Russians demonstrated impressive combat training and military prowess combined with considerable tactical skill. They had undoubted success (knocked out Asam). But the problem is that the success of the Wehrmacht, you count it, and 2, THOE - no, and this is double standards
                1. +1
                  April 28 2019 12: 11
                  the problem is that I would be happy to count 2 TOE any success, even the smallest, but did not find those

                  I translate it into a football example: once we took a ball from rivals in 90 minutes, cheers!
                  1. 0
                    April 28 2019 13: 23
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    The problem is that I would be happy to count 2 TOE any success, even the smallest, but I could not find any

                    Well, if even "Asama" disappeared from you, not to mention the Togo loop and at least 25 shells into the Japanese ships in the first 15 minutes of the battle, then the question arises - were you looking at all? :))))
                    1. 0
                      April 28 2019 13: 28
                      if even "Asama" disappeared from you


                      No, I didn’t hide. I wrote about this:
                      I translate it into a football example: once we took a ball from rivals in 90 minutes, cheers!


                      success is the sinking of a heavy ship in this case, well, at least the old and small cruiser
                      1. +1
                        April 28 2019 23: 49
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        success is the sinking of a heavy ship in this case, well, at least the old and small cruiser

                        Disabling one single shell of the cruiser "Kasagi" will not work? Along the way, this hit from the battlefield removed not one, but two cruisers at once. "Chitose" no longer participated in the battle, accompanied by "Kasagi" went to the Aburadani Bay.
                        I think this is an undoubted success of the cruising forces, with one hit to remove from the battlefield the two best light cruisers of the enemy. Yes, they didn’t drown, sorry, but that’s not bad either.
                        How could Port Arthurs boast like that?
                      2. +1
                        April 29 2019 00: 26
                        Well, the Arturians can boast of drowning 2x EDB hi
                      3. +1
                        April 29 2019 01: 59
                        Quote: Nehist
                        Arturians can boast of drowning 2x EDB

                        Yes, but not a cruiser.
                        And the Port Arthur cruisers in the battle at Cape Shantung did not achieve a single hit, although the ammunition consumption was serious.
            2. 0
              April 29 2019 17: 41
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Wehrmacht ... led by mediocrity ...


              Led mediocrity. The most important mediocrity with the formation of an army corporal sometimes rolled on the floor and nibbled carpets from an excess of mind (in this he surpassed Zinovy ​​Petrovich). Or simply told all night until morning how the Moon in the past did not fall on the Earth.
      3. -3
        April 27 2019 13: 54
        there is a lot of negative opinions about every big boss, finding a bunch of negative reviews is not a problem - I’m not ready to fully support it, SO


        Not from a lot of knowledge of the issue.
        In fact, Rozhdestvensky was one of the most respected admirals.
        Who has a "bad opinion" about him? At Nebogatov - who at first fell behind, not participating in the battle and then surrendered the ships? So it would be worth hanging Nebogatov, not listening to his opinions.

        I did not take experienced sailors from the Black Sea Fleet = a clinical case

        What "experienced" ones? Where did they get their "experience" at Borodino?

        did not explain to the king of the adventure = a clinical case

        There was no "adventure" - these are your fantasies.
        The breakthrough became problematic only after the surrender of Port Arthur. And even then the problem is not equal to "gamble"

        left on the battleships before the boat life = clinical case

        In general, the ravings of "experts" who "know better" began.

        So, I repeat: an unbiased analysis shows that Rozhdestvensky acted correctly.
        1. +1
          April 27 2019 20: 09
          So Nebogatov should be hung


          Courage of a soldier - if necessary, then go on the attack and be ready to die.
          The courage of the general - if necessary, then at the cost of his career to prevent the soldiers from dying in vain.

          Nebogatov showed more courage than Rozhdestvensky. And Enquist did everything right.

          It is necessary to hang up those who are completely pointless to doom thousands of people for slaughter.
          1. +1
            April 28 2019 09: 59
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            Nebogatov showed more courage than Rozhdestvensky

            What are you talking about?
            Especially in the light of:
            Enquist did everything right.
            1. +2
              April 28 2019 10: 15
              Dear colleague, I will quote myself a little:

              Courage of a soldier - if necessary, then go on the attack and be ready to die.
              The courage of the general - if necessary, then at the cost of his career to prevent the soldiers from dying in vain.


              Enquist saved himself as well. But he also saved the ships and their crews. A direct violation of the order must also be decided, and this is a rather difficult decision. But it turned out to be true in fact. Enquist - the best of all squadron admirals is obtained.

              About Nebogatov. The level of action of the ships of his squad (for example, to go in good order at night with a minimum of lights) shows a fundamentally different level of training compared to the main part of the squadron. He had a theoretical chance to go to Vladivostok, but only a theoretical one, he seized on him because he was afraid to break the order. In vain. Of course, Nebogatov also saved himself as well. But he did not decide, unlike Enquist, on a timely retreat, so he saved only the crews - he lost the ships.

              About Rozhdestvensky. "I don't remember, I was wounded, shell-shocked." Unfortunately, all these stories are from the words of such people as a "bubble" who allegedly tried to shoot himself - it did not work, but to cut / hit his head with a running start on an I-beam / throw himself overboard / do it later / a thousand more ways to commit suicide - who prevented him ... In general, the information about "I do not remember, was wounded, shell-shocked" comes exclusively from sources that do not inspire the slightest confidence in me, rather, on the contrary, the desire to consider what they have written is a deliberate lie.

              Perhaps I do not take into account any important facts. Just do not know. I didn’t read something. I would be grateful for constructive criticism.
              1. +1
                April 28 2019 11: 32
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                In general, the information about "I don't remember, I was wounded-shell-shocked" comes exclusively from sources that do not inspire the slightest confidence in me,

                Yeah, that is, the fact that the Japanese 2 doctors of the month did not dare to remove the fragments of the skull that went inside the head is nonsense, and this did not prevent him from leading the squadron :)))
                You are certainly a communist, but God be afraid :)))
                1. +2
                  April 28 2019 11: 51
                  Firstly, I’m not a communist even once.
                  Secondly, all sources are subject to thorough analysis. Semenov and other persons arch-interested in a lie. This is a close-knit gang that gets out. Often ridiculous and stupid.
                  1. 0
                    April 28 2019 12: 01
                    About the Communists, this is a catch phrase attributed to Stalin.
                    But a thorough analysis from you to hear even somehow ... strange.
                    When Andrei talks about a certain untruth from Kostenko or Novikov, he says where and what exactly they said, obviously not true. You can also about Semenov?
                    1. +2
                      April 28 2019 13: 08
                      Do you seriously believe that the second squadron would have been more pleased with the Japanese than with Nebogatov? That the dominant attitude was "die but admiral's persian"? That Rozhestvensky had some "reasonable" plans, such as to capture Chief and make him a naval base?
                      1. +2
                        April 28 2019 15: 01
                        Sorry, but I did not ask about your religious views. I don't care what you believe in. There is a fact that Kostenko (who spent the whole fight in the infirmary for a good reason) reported absolutely fantastic data on the number of Japanese hits on the "Eagle" and there is an opportunity to check this according to Campbell or the Japanese. There is a fact that Novikov attributed to Krylov a statement that he did not do, and this can also be verified.
                        What can you present to Semenov?
                        Yes, he wrote that the Japanese used up a few rounds of ammunition per barrel in training. But not as a fact, they say, he saw himself, but honestly indicated that he had transmitted the story of the Japanese officers. That is, not Kheikhatiro Kishizemonovich told, not the Marquis Ito in secret ... What do you have in fact?
                      2. +1
                        April 28 2019 15: 32
                        What can you present to Semenov?

                        that his whole book is a set of well-known commonplace (they are correct),
                        that's why I write that as a source of objective facts, Semenov’s book is about nothing at all
                        +
                        a huge number of unverifiable things that I personally will never believe in without serious independent confirmations, such as:
                        Do you seriously believe ... That Rozhestvensky had some "reasonable" plans, such as capture the Chief and make him a base for the fleet?

                        Semenov wrote all these very strange things with one purpose: to cover up Rozhdestvensky and himself beloved too

                        Therefore, I have an opinion: it turns out absurdly and stupidly.


                        Compare with the clear, unambiguous and business style of Kostenko:

                        A military council was organized at Orel, chaired by a commander with the participation of all senior specialists. The Council has developed a common program of activities. The following key issues were addressed: ...
                        2) carrying out fire events - removing wood, combustible materials, excess furniture from the officers' quarters, dismantling the wardroom and sideboard, protecting fire horns, watering the wooden upper deck, filling boats with water;
                        3) anti-roll, implementation of a quick alignment system for the incipient roll, flooding of the side compartments with boiler water, water purification equipment, spare means for quickly terminating gun ports of a 75 mm battery;
                        4) the provision of means of communication on the ship, emergency storm ladders on the bridges and between decks, means and ways of delivering the wounded to the operational point;
                        ...
                        The entire program of preparations for the battle was carried out on the Orel, which contributed to the survivability of the ship ... Unfortunately, nothing could be done to unload the battleship. When in Kam Ranh, a month before the battle, the flagship naval engineer Politovsky visited the Oryol, his commander asked the admiral to raise the issue of radical unloading of ships before the battle, to remove wood and unnecessary furniture from living quarters, to use the admiral's premises instead of the officer's wardroom, finally, about the removal of boats and lifeboats useless for battle with their transfer to transports. Such measures could only be carried out by order of the squadron. Politovsky answered the commander with chagrin that these measures were proposed by the headquarters to the admiral, but categorically rejected by him as incompatible with the military plans of possible operations. The commander of the "Eagle" decided on his own responsibility to remove the tree from all upper deckhouses before the battle, to disassemble the wardroom, to use the admiral's mess for the officers and to pump boiler water into the side compartments to straighten the roll. "

                        He at least did something real and offered. Unlike Semenov.
                      3. +1
                        April 28 2019 15: 44
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        He at least did something real and offered. Unlike Semenov.

                        1) In addition to Kostenko, did anyone know about all these circumstances and proposals?
                        2) Carefully read "Payback" there is also about the proposals made by Semenov.
                        his whole book is a set of well-known commonplace

                        If you discard verbal husk, then you just wrote that there is no lies in it.
                        Thank you.
                      4. 0
                        April 28 2019 16: 17
                        no need to juggle
                        I wrote that there isn’t that lie that can be refuted by facts,
                        but I reasonably suspect that there is a lot of lies about specific conversations, thoughts, etc.
                        please
                      5. +1
                        April 28 2019 16: 35
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        no need to juggle

                        What?
                        she doesn’t have a lie that can be refuted by facts,

                        So, what am I talking about? but Kostenko and Novikov have more than enough of such goodness!
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        but reasonably

                        Unfortunately, it is NOT grounded.
                        Yes, write simply that you do not like ZPR, and any fact, regardless of its veracity, testifying in its favor, will be a lie in your eyes. And vice versa, if complete nonsense is written, but in a pleasant light for you, you will declare it to be the ultimate truth ...
                      6. 0
                        April 28 2019 17: 02
                        Unfortunately, it is NOT grounded.

                        answered in the comments above)

                        Yes, write simply that you do not like ZPR

                        I do not like the score 0:12 and, accordingly, anyone to blame for it
                      7. +1
                        April 29 2019 21: 51
                        There is a fact that Kostenko (who spent the whole fight in the infirmary for a good reason) reported absolutely fantastic data on the number of Japanese hits on the "Eagle" and there is an opportunity to check this according to Campbell or the Japanese.


                        Where does this fact come from? Have you compared the Japanese damage schemes for the Eagle with those of Kostenko and the damage model he made for the Eagle?

                        Kostenko had a day to inspect the damage, he applied, as I understand it, the following technique: "The holes in the 3/8" skin were measured: from a 12 "shell - 8X8 feet, from an 8" shell - 5X6 feet, from 6 -inch 3X3 ft. "

                        IMHO, much more than 10 shells with a caliber of 12 inches and much more than 30 shells with a caliber of 8 inches (most of which Kostenko mistakenly classified as 12-inch) hit the "Orel", Kostenko simply physically did not have the ability to count the smaller holes in large quantities

                        as part of his methodology, Kostenko wrote that he thought he was mistaken, but tried

                        and from the "bubble" only pathetic exaltation and self-justification
                      8. +2
                        1 May 2019 09: 08
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Where does this fact come from? Have you compared the Japanese damage schemes for the Eagle with those of Kostenko and the damage model he made for the Eagle?

                        Yes 100 was compared once
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Kostenko had a day to inspect the damage, he applied, as I understand it, the following technique:

                        According to which, in the first editions of his book, the Eagle came under 150 305-mm shells :)))) Then he realized that he had completely stolen, and he cut the sturgeon :)))))
                      9. -1
                        1 May 2019 09: 49
                        Yes 100 was compared once


                        well, then you know that on the Kostenko’s hit chart only fifty large holes and individual non-penetration of armor are displayed, which he attributed to the shells of the largest caliber
                        (it was necessary to write not 12 ", but 8-12")
                        as well as a number of small holes, which Kostenko attributed to 6-8-inch shells (it was necessary to write 6 ")
                        Kostenko’s mistake is understandable, since the size of the hole in the board depends on many factors: from the true delay of the explosion to the angle of the projectile’s meeting, which then could not be taken into account

                        in the first editions of his book in Oryol came under 150 305-mm shells :))))


                        give proof, if you have, intrigued, ready, if anything, change your mind

                        and from the "bubble" only pathetic exaltation and self-justification


                        as in the joke: "it's good that there were no questions about this thesis" (c)
                        Semenov could at least write himself to Jaynes, but, please note, I personally do not blame Semenov for lying in this case, since this is not from evil, but simply out of ignorance of the materiel
                      10. 0
                        1 May 2019 10: 34
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        give proof, if you have, intrigued, ready, if anything, change your mind

                        Here it is necessary to contact Comrade, I, unfortunately, did not save
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Semenov could at least Janes himself write

                        The question is just WHEN he got Jane 1904 of the year? laughing
                      11. -1
                        1 May 2019 11: 41
                        The only question is WHEN would he get Jane 1904? laughing

                        stop
                        yes, even in Japanese captivity, even immediately upon returning to Russia

                        and maybe, dear colleague, do you think that the characteristics of the cruisers that Russia then tried to buy were secret for the leadership of 2 TOE lol
                      12. 0
                        2 May 2019 08: 12
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        He applied, as I understand it, the following methodology:

                        Colleague, no need for speculation.
                      13. 0
                        2 May 2019 10: 58
                        This is not speculation, this is a quote from Kostenko. He clearly indicated the size of the hole, in his opinion, to which projectile it fits.

                        Check out Kostenko. Go, for example, to "Aurora", there is a model of damage of "Eagle" made by him, you will count fifty hits with heavy shells on it.

                        Try to put yourself in Kostenko's shoes and see if you can draw a diagram of the Eagle's damage better than him in a day.

                        Pay attention, that on such nonsense as "180-mm cannon" it seems like he never burned. And he also did not fill in about how to "establish a new fleet base in Chief".

                        And also learn the materiel about the size of the holes in the unarmored skin. Then you will understand why Kostenko regularly overestimated the caliber of missiles.

                        Better yet, say that, for example, Kostenko's testimony that the "Eagle" could give up to 16 knots in battle, and in the morning of the next day at least 15 knots, indicates an urgent need to hang Rozhdestvensky, therefore "fans of French bread" the book must be spoiled at any cost.
                      14. +2
                        2 May 2019 16: 40
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        This is not speculation, this is a quote from Kostenko

                        The first part of the phrase is directly opposite to the second.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        try to put yourself in Kostenko's shoes and see if you can draw the Eagle's damage diagram better than him in a day.

                        I quit drawing a long time ago and I could hardly have done it by moving around on an armadillo on crutches. In any case, I would not write about it :)
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        French loaf fans

                        If you are trying to offend me, then you are trying in vain.
                      15. 0
                        2 May 2019 17: 05
                        If you are trying to offend me, then you are trying in vain.

                        I'm not trying. Already apologized to Andrei from Chelyabinsk that he misunderstood this meme.
                        I won’t be sorry anymore.

                        The first part of the phrase is directly opposite to the second.

                        There are no contradictions. Kostenko clearly indicated how, in his opinion, the consequences of shells differ. Everything that he wrote and painted, within the framework of this technique. It is presumed that he used it.
                      16. +2
                        3 May 2019 09: 00
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I won’t be sorry anymore.

                        One more - one less. As I was just not called, depending on the party affiliation of the opponent. Both the Stalinist and the baker ...
                        Kostenko clearly indicated how, in his opinion, the consequences of shells differ. Everything that he wrote and painted, within the framework of this technique. It is presumed that he used it.

                        There, a little lower, Valentin Maltsev (aka Comrade) wrote that Kostenko's drawings did not coincide with photographs taken by the Japanese. Well, God bless him, with the terrorist ...
                        About the sailors of the Black Sea, of whom you and Novikov were so sad. Gribovsky, whom it is difficult to suspect of sympathy for ZPR, wrote literally the following:
                        The commander was also worried about the current problems with the personnel - except for the Baltic, they were allocated for manning his ships, sailors from the Black Sea crews, as well as instructors and commandants from the Training and Artillery Squad. The latter was very encouraging.

                        True, Vladimir Yulievich did not indicate any details.
                        https://litresp.ru/chitat/ru/%D0%93/gribovskij-vladimir-yuljevich/poslednij-parad-admirala-sudjba-vice-admirala-zp-rozhestvenskogo
                      17. +1
                        3 May 2019 10: 58
                        There, a little lower, Valentin Maltsev (aka Comrade) wrote that Kostenko's drawings did not coincide with photographs taken by the Japanese.


                        read this in valentine's article a few years ago




                        the pipes had difficulties for perception, a hole on a black background, here are the diagrams (Kostenko and Japanese), the differences are complete, but the general trend is the same (we must take into account that the Japanese displayed only penetration)
                      18. +1
                        3 May 2019 11: 04
                        And here are two more schemes:




                        photos were taken, IMHO, much closer than it was seen from the shore and with the selection of the angle
                2. +2
                  April 29 2019 17: 37
                  As for the Communists, more accurately, your Excellency. I myself am a communist in the past and for my party experience (1980-1991) I can answer without being ashamed.
                  All flagships of the 2nd squadron, except Rear Admiral Valkersam D.G., are cowards and scoundrels.
                  Vice Admiral Rozhestvensky Z.P. - did not have the courage to insist on refusing a breakthrough to Vladivostok in front of the emperor, the mediocre command destroyed the squadron, escaped from the doomed flagship, and behaved shamefully after returning from captivity.
                  Rear Admiral Nebogatov - did not take command of the squadron after the failure of the senior flagship, did not show initiative in saving the remains of the squadron after taking command, surrendered to the enemy without a fight.
                  Condor Admiral Enquist O.A. - fled with part of the detachment from the scene of the battle, leaving the squadron without an order from the senior commanders.
                  None of them committed suicide, fully aware of the gravity of the deed. So the whole talk about their decency should be put next to the side.
                  1. 0
                    April 30 2019 14: 39
                    About the death of Rear Admiral Völkersam D.G. knew only the squadron headquarters. Even after the death of Oslyaby, Rear Admirals Nebogatov and Enqvist were not informed.
                    The enquist saved his squad after the defeat of the squadron, and Nebogatov surrendered the remnants of the squadron, which no longer had the opportunity to damage the enemy or break through at least somewhere.
                    1. +2
                      3 May 2019 14: 22
                      Enquist saved his squad after the defeat of the squadron,

                      This is a miracle what is .... Cowardice has already been elevated to valor - "saved the squad!"
                      He ran, did not carry out a direct order (with all the possibilities to carry it out), abandoned his comrades. But it turns out that the "squad saved"

                      and Nebogatov surrendered the remnants of the squadron, which no longer had the opportunity to damage the enemy or break through at least somewhere

                      Why didn't he go into battle? why lagged behind? Again, "had no opportunity"?
                      But it was precisely because of Nebogatov that Rozhdestvensky cut off the move to 9 knots - so as not to drop Nebogatov!
                      But then Nebogatov himself left him ....

                      This despite the fact that the 3rd TOE was Rozhdestvensky and nafig is not needed
                      1. -2
                        3 May 2019 14: 35
                        Quote: AK64
                        But then Nebogatov himself left him ....

                        Do you know the composition of this detachment? Or do you, as well as the Russian GMSh, also think that if you attach thin armor to the trough and put a fuflyzhny gun, you get an "battleship." And if such "battleships" are launched somewhere in a bunch, will you get a "squadron of battleships"?
                      2. +1
                        3 May 2019 15: 49
                        What's the difference? What excuses can there be? In fact, the 3rd TOE almost did not participate in the battle --- behind. Everything else, about the "wrong armor" - this is nothing more than an excuse.
                      3. -1
                        3 May 2019 17: 36
                        Quote: AK64
                        In fact, the 3rd TOE almost did not participate in the battle --- the backlog.

                        And I ask again, what was it for her to "participate"?
                        It’s like seriously demanding motorcyclists with machine gunners in wheelchairs to participate in an oncoming tank battle.
                      4. +1
                        3 May 2019 17: 58
                        And I ask again, what was it for her to "participate"?
                        It’s like seriously demanding motorcyclists with machine gunners in wheelchairs to participate in an oncoming tank battle.


                        guns to participate, guns. Fire and steel.

                        Let me remind you that the Japanese had only 4 full-fledged EBRs in the line. And 8 "armored cruisers".
                        Or will you tell me that the Japanese "armored cruisers" were much more powerful than Nebogatov's BBO? (despite the fact that the Kamimura's cannons were occupied by the 2nd detachment of Rozhdestvensky and Nebogatov would have had shooting range conditions)

                        That is, in your opinion, it turns out that the Asamoids and the Garibaldiy are a superweapon for the line, that Nakhimov in the line is in its place, but 1 EDB and 3 BWOs are not, they cannot be in the line, they cannot? While the 3rd TOE wing of the cruiser Kamimura in artillery and armor like a bull - a sheep.

                        Strange opinion ....
                      5. 0
                        3 May 2019 20: 08
                        Quote: AK64
                        guns to participate, guns.

                        The cannon is different.
                        In order to SUCCESSFULLY participate in the battle of the EDB it is necessary to have (including) guns of the appropriate level. 3TOE ships did not have such guns.
                        Even the battle of 3TOE with the ships of Kamimura is already unpromising.
                        Now, if a third of Kamimura’s squad. Better yet, one ship. Then something else could have happened.
                        Quote: AK64
                        Or will you tell me that the Japanese "armored cruisers" were much more powerful than Nebogatov's BBO?

                        Highly.
                        Quote: AK64
                        and Nebogatov would have firing conditions for shooting

                        Those. Did the fact that Kamimura’s squad had a noticeable advantage in the course pass you by?
                        And why do you think ships need an advantage in speed? Probably in order to expose himself under two fires?
                        Quote: AK64
                        That is, in your opinion, it turns out that the Asamoids and the Garibaldiy are a superweapon for the line, that Nakhimov in the line is in its place,

                        Why do you attribute to me your non-erotic fantasies?
                        Quote: AK64
                        but 1 EDB and 3 BWOs --- not, they cannot be in line, they cannot?

                        EDB? Is it the EDB, Nikolai, or what? They made fun.
                        In fact, Nikolai was the same BrBO as the Ushakovs. That is why they were united into one detachment. Which was supposed to come to the Sea of ​​Japan a little later, after the conquest of 2TOE supremacy at sea (the idea was that, a genius). For the purpose of shelling ports and other objects on the Japanese Islands (this is the function of the BrBO). But then the strategists from the GMSH decided to "strengthen" 2TOE with these goners. There was no sense from which for 2TOE in the battle at sea.
                        According to Nicholas, one must understand that over time the ships age, the ballistics of their guns become obsolete, and except for impact on coastal targets, they are no longer suitable. Nicholas immediately became a brbo. And it was not used in any other way. Yes, and could not be used.
                        Quote: AK64
                        While the 3rd TOE wing of the cruiser Kamimura in artillery and armor like a bull - a sheep.

                        8 "cannons of the Garibaldians from the first detachment were approximately equivalent to 12" cannons of Nikolai (he had only two of them).
                        The 8 "guns of the Elsviks were quite a bit, but they were inferior to them. But the 8" guns of the Elsviks were noticeably better than the 9 "guns of Nikolai.
                        Only 10 "cannons of the Ushakovs were relatively good. They were approximately equivalent to 12" guns of Navarin. Although slightly inferior to Kasugi's 10 "cannon (1st detachment).
                        And the armor of the 3TOE was a complete failure. This is BrBO, and even the old ones. There really wasn’t any armor there, and then time also took its toll.
                        113-115 mm in Krupp equivalent at the edges of the stems of the ear. And 126 mm right in front of Nikolai’s waterproof partition (Nikolai had the same irreversible booking scheme for those years as Borodins had).
                        This is for the waterline. Above the waterline of the armor there were generally only traces. The values ​​are only slightly different from zero for the ear-flaps (reverse fire from the coast was not planned, the field-ballistic guns are not as long-range as the sea ones) and better, but not very, for Nikolai.
                        Compare the minimum booking for Asam VL (2 pcs) - 146 mm in a group, Yakumo / Azuma - 215 mm and Iwate (2 pcs) - 224 mm.
                        As for the reservation above the OHL, the Yakumo / 2hIvate had about 7 times more armor there than the ear ones. And more than 2 times more than Nikolai.
                        Azuma / 2xAsama above the OHL were armored thinner. But also, 6 times more than the Ushakovs and about 2 times more than Nikolai.
                        Those. based on objective indicators, a meeting in an open field of some already stale Asama with "EBR" Nikolay with equal crews should have ended with a clear victory for Asama.
                        As for the ear ears, there is nothing to say. They were not designed for the impact of return fire. Is that so, to fight off every little thing. From the mosquito fleet of the enemy.
                      6. +2
                        3 May 2019 20: 54
                        You forget one tiny nuance: Nebogatov didn’t have to deal with Kamimura one-on-one, since Kamimura was connected by action in the 2nd and 1st detachments. If Kamimura transfers fire to Nebogatov, then the position of the 2nd and 1st detachments is facilitated.
                        Indeed, Kamimura can always leave in the event of an attempt to put him in two fires. Well, that's just what you need: once you leave, two leave --- you look, and the strait has passed, and the night has come.

                        Well, the ratio of armor to guns at the BrBO Nebogatov and the cruisers of Kamimura is not at all as sad as you described: 10 "The BrBO even pierced the main belt of the Asamoids.

                        But this is not the point: even if they didn’t break through, Nebogatov still had to go into battle, and not hang out behind on the line of sight, sometimes shooting from afar. (Not without success, by the way, they fired - as one of the colleagues pointed out earlier, the shells at Nebogatov’s ships were the only effective, and even firing from afar was quite effective)
                        And there is no need to look for excuses for obvious cowardice: he was obliged to go into battle and had such an opportunity.
                      7. +1
                        6 May 2019 01: 30
                        Quote: AK64
                        fired - as one of the colleagues pointed out earlier, the shells at Nebogatov’s ships turned out to be the only effective ones, and even firing from afar was quite effective)
                        And there is no need to look for excuses for obvious cowardice: he was obliged to go into battle and had such an opportunity.

                        I fully support.
              2. +1
                April 28 2019 11: 36
                I asked you specifically about Nebogatov.
                The fact is that a few years ago, I had a polemic with the author of the article about this. And secretly according to Nebogatov, your humble servant said something like this: - that, not approving surrender at all, but putting himself in the place of Nebogatov’s subordinates, he’s not ready to throw a stone at him. The fact is that I really served in the Navy and, as it were, I can put myself in the place of ordinary sailors, on whom little depended. But those who would ultimately have to go to the bottom.
                The answer was this: Nebogatov should have decided. If he can fight, then he should go and fight. If he can’t, he turns around and leaves like an Enquist.
                And over time, I completely agree with this answer.
                And therefore I am forced to repeat the question. Where did you see courage near Nebogatov?
                As for the wound of Rozhestvensky, now you are discussing him, behaving like a special agent from a bad film about the Second World War. Say, what are you, a scoundrel, not burned in the tank, but got wounded prisoner ?!
                Regarding constructive criticism ... after you stated with a blue eye that Novikov’s book has more value and truthfulness than the Semenov trilogy, I don’t think that you (critics) can apprehend it adequately. Because it is ... generally beyond!
                1. +1
                  April 28 2019 12: 00
                  I agree completely with you regarding
                  not ready to throw a stone at him

                  I agree with you completely
                  If he can’t, he turns around and leaves like an Enquist.

                  The courage of Nebogatov is to violate the emperor’s categorical order.

                  act like a special agent from a bad WWII movie

                  generally beyond

                  no, as a person who is extremely critical of any kind of sources, and as for the same Semenov, he is extremely interested in a conscious lie
                  1. 0
                    April 28 2019 15: 06
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    The courage of Nebogatov is to violate the emperor’s categorical order.

                    Nikolai's order was to go to Vladivostok. And Nebogatov did not break it. Still have "heroic deeds"?
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    as for the same Semenov, he is extremely interested in a conscious lie

                    The Compromiser, interested and lied, are two fundamentally different things. And you never pointed to a direct lie.
                    As for Kostenko and Novikov, they, as participants in the revolutionary movement, were much more interested in denigrating the power of the Russian Empire. And as you know, the revolutionaries were not embarrassed in this sense by any lie. So on your part, double standards again apply.
                    1. +2
                      April 28 2019 15: 44
                      So on your part, double standards again apply.


                      In what? I don’t assure you that exactly 42 12 "shells and exactly 100 in 8" and 6 "hit the Eagle.

                      interested and lied, two fundamentally different things


                      I will give a simple example from the practice of domestic jurisprudence: a judge, if a witness is the driver's wife and assures that there was no exit to the oncoming lane, in fact, she never takes into account her testimony, because "she is extremely interested in deliberate lies." This is about Semyonov.

                      but if the witness - the refueling operator - takes into account, since he is not interested.
                      see Saksahorse’s comment above, why do so many different and unrelated people from Novikov and to Vyrubov consider Rozhdestvensky to be at least a fool and a psycho
                      1. -1
                        April 28 2019 15: 57
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        In what?

                        In the fact that you unconditionally accept some on faith, while others are equally unconditionally, although unreasonably, written down as liars. This is called double standards.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I will give a simple example from the practice of domestic jurisprudence: a judge, if the driver’s wife is a witness

                        Semenov - the wife of Christmas?
                        Listen, I understand that it’s a holiday, but you would have a snack!
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        see above comment Saxahorse

                        I would ask not to express myself!
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        why so many different and unrelated people from Novikov to Vyrubov consider Rozhestvensky, at least, a fool and a psycho

                        If a person honestly served and faithfully performed his duties, then he simply could not help but make enemies, envious and ill-wishers.
                        So this is not an argument at all.
                      2. +4
                        April 28 2019 17: 00
                        I would ask not to express myself!

                        he quoted quotes from unrelated people - everything’s a selection, it’s called testimony

                        Semenov - the wife of Christmas?

                        his assistant and "the tribunal also shone on him in full" he is much more interested in lying than the driver's wife - it smells like a noose

                        In such cases, it is written something like this: "The court takes into account the clear, unambiguous and consistent testimony of Kostenko, Vyrubov ... At the same time, the court is critical of Semyonov's testimony, due to his personal interest in removing the charges against Rozhestvensky and his own acquittal. The court also notes that that the actual actions of Rozhestvensky in leading the squadron are in direct contradiction with the motives attributed to him, in particular, if Rozhestvensky really had the intention to break through with only 5 or 6 battleships, he should have detached Nebogatov's squadron into a separate detachment and sent it to Vladivostok bypassing Japan or set another independent task. " Etc.

                        That is, in such cases, the court, for example, presumes the testimony to be false, based on the general circumstances of the case, although there was no evidence that Semenov and Rozhestvensky were talking about / did not say anything.
                        Well, am I the most intelligent one? I, by the same method, presume Semenov’s testimony false.
                      3. +1
                        April 29 2019 09: 41
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        he quoted quotes from unrelated people - everything’s a selection, it’s called testimony

                        Nothing of the kind. Do you seriously think that Saxnhorse climbed sources and collected excerpts from memories? Not at all. He took it from Gribovsky’s book, which is a very interesting (not to say rude) companion. So, citing negative statements about Rozhdestvensky, the aforementioned Gribovsky does not forget to write who made them and even give a brief assessment. eg:lieutenant P. A. Vyrubov, who refused to leave his doomed battleship on 14 on May 1905 but when he gives positive statements (well, it is necessary to preserve the appearance of objectivity) for some reason they are impersonal. That's when he was the clipper commander: The notes of the officer under the command of Zinovy ​​Petrovich make it possible to judge how he appeared to be the commander of the ship. The author of the notes considers the main properties of the "ideal boss" the ability to praise and encourage the subordinate, "when he deserves, and to spread in due time for what follows." Such was Z. P. Rozhestvensky.
                        And what kind of officer, as a surname ....
                        The only exception is Makarov. Stepan Osipovich didn’t hush up.
                        In general, I have to repeat, Your Honor. The testimony is tendentious and should be mistrusted.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        assistant and "the tribunal also shone for him in full"

                        1) Or maybe you first find out who really was Semenov on the squadron?
                        2) Semenov might not go camping at all. But he went. He was wounded and captured. And in captivity he could be put to the wall much faster, for violation of the subscription.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Well, am I the smartest

                        Alas, mon sher ...
                      4. -1
                        April 29 2019 13: 12
                        Do you know who Semenov really was on the squadron?

                        historiographer)
                        Semenov could not go camping at all

                        but wanted the grounds to be discussed separately
                        In general, I have to repeat, Your Honor. The testimony is tendentious and should be mistrusted.

                        then give a dozen independent reviews of 2 TOE officers about which ZPR is good)
                        - this is called adversarial process
                    2. +2
                      April 28 2019 17: 09
                      Nikolai’s order was different. - Twice in the king’s telegram addressed to Rozhdestvensky it is indicated that not the breakthrough to Vladivostok is set as the goal of the squadron, but the capture of the Sea of ​​Japan. That, as it were, without a general battle is not possible in principle. Rozhdestvensky perfectly realized everything, but did nothing to minimize losses
                2. +2
                  April 28 2019 12: 54
                  The answer was this: Nebogatov should have decided. If he can fight, then he should go and fight. If he can’t, he turns around and leaves like an Enquist.
                  And over time, I completely agree with this answer.
                  And therefore I am forced to repeat the question. Where did you see courage near Nebogatov?


                  I will say IMHO about Nebogatov and Enquist.

                  In battle, Nebogatov diligently lagged behind, and in fact did not participate in the battle. Although (1) Rozhestvensky deliberately cut the speed to 9 knots to give Nebogatov the opportunity to stay in the ranks, and (2) given the loops that the squadron cut, Nebogatov could at least "cut corners" and act independently, setting the Japanese in two fires.
                  He could not hold 9 knots? Well, after the battle, the same 3rd TOE (according to Kostenko’s testimony, who wrote about Oryol --- but Oryol joined Nebogatov precisely) developed 13 knots and walked at 13 knots all night.
                  Enquist ish is breaking into Vladik. Enquist had no reason not to follow the direct order. Moreover, I believe that Enquist not only could break through, but, with minimal decisiveness and will, he could protect several other ships from night attacks by destroyers.

                  I note especially that in this case I do not impose my IMHO on anyone.
                  1. +2
                    April 28 2019 13: 05
                    Enquist ish is breaking into Vladik


                    is it with the speed of something "Oleg"?

                    Nebogatov studiously lagged behind


                    Togo then tried to escape from the battlefield, organizing the "valor of Admiral Kamimura")
                    We maneuvered as best we could, "Alexander III" and "Borodino" cut loops in poor visibility, from the position of Nebogatov it was very difficult to figure it out, and put the Japanese in two fires belay will you be able to draw when and how it was possible on the course layout chart? I am ready to change my mind if I am mistaken and do it regularly
                  2. +2
                    April 28 2019 18: 37
                    Quote: AK64
                    In battle, Nebogatov diligently lagged behind, and in fact did not participate in the battle. Although (1) Rozhestvensky deliberately cut the speed to 9 knots to give Nebogatov the opportunity to stay in the ranks, and (2) given the loops that the squadron cut, Nebogatov could at least "cut corners" and act independently, setting the Japanese in two fires.

                    I want to remind you that it was Rozhdestvensky, in the first minutes of the battle, having cut the second detachment, forced them to stop! On any combat scheme, you can observe a cactus from the standing ships of the second and third detachment. It took some time to set in motion and take a place in the ranks .. Five to seven minutes .. All this time, four battleships of the first detachment were catching hits from twelve (!) Enemy ships. Many thanks to Rozhdestvensky for this gift to the Japanese !!!
              3. 0
                April 30 2019 14: 55
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                Perhaps I do not take into account any important facts. Just do not know. I didn’t read something. I would be grateful for constructive criticism.

                I understand that Andrei Nikolaevich will never refer to himself, but for a more in-depth study of the topic, I advise you to read this analysis by Tsushima
                https://topwar.ru/77049-mify-cusimy.html
                https://topwar.ru/77215-mify-cusimy-prodolzhenie.html
                https://topwar.ru/77654-mify-cusimy-chast-3.html
                https://topwar.ru/77952-mify-cusimy-postskriptum.html
                https://topwar.ru/78553-o-vozmozhnoy-taktike-russkih-v-cusime.html

                For me, the whole of the REV in general and Tsushima in particular is a very painful topic, so I try to learn as much as possible.
        2. +2
          April 28 2019 17: 03
          Not a biased analysis, as you claim, was refuted by the ZPR itself at the trial in November 1906. Where he himself claimed - Rozhdestvensky: "There was no meeting of flagships to discuss a detailed battle plan, because there was no development itself."
      4. 0
        April 27 2019 15: 33
        Andrey Shmelev, I’ll continue with your permission: I brought the squadron without losses - the clinic, lost - the clinic
        1. +1
          April 27 2019 20: 26
          Vladislav: commercial ships sailed incomparably faster and easier routes, where would the loss come from? He brought the squadron - not a feat. I wouldn’t have led it, explaining to the tsar why it wasn’t necessary - there would have been a hero.
          1. +2
            April 28 2019 10: 18
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            commercial ships sailed incomparably faster and easier such routes

            Commercial ships do not bunker in non-equipped parking lots. Commercial ships have the opportunity to carry out repairs in any port, if such a need happens. In peacetime, commercial ships do not need to go caravan and adapt to the slowest ship. Finally, there are fewer crews who do not need to engage in combat training.
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            where would the losses come from

            I understand that you didn’t hear that navigational accidents happen?
            "Unabi" - 1886, went on its first campaign and did not come anywhere.
            "Reina Rehenta" - 1895. disappeared while crossing from Tangier to Cadiz.
            And how many "commercial ships were killed every year floated such routes are incomparably faster and easier "...
            1. +3
              April 28 2019 10: 33
              you did not hear navigational accidents?


              I heard that once in ten years this happens, let's praise Rozhestvensky for the fact that the brick didn’t fall on his head and the lightning didn’t hit him, well, well done)

              and, I beg your pardon, can you tell me how long it took to complete and reach Japan, for example, "Nissin" and "Kasuga"?
              1. +1
                April 28 2019 11: 20
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                do not tell me how long it took to be completed and reached Japan, for example, "Nissin" and "Kasuga"

                Let me tell you, why not tell me ... we arrived in Japan in February, entered service in April, and in May the crew of the cruiser "Yoshino" became convinced on their own skin that the Japanese command was in a hurry with the entry into service of new ships.
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                once in ten years this happens

                In fact, the commercial vessels to which you referred refer to disasters at about 200 units per year. Well, in those days there was less traffic, however, the score was in any case tens.
                1. +1
                  April 28 2019 11: 53
                  Yes, this is not the only point.
                  Unfortunately, local experts do not understand what to bring one ship to, and to bring a squadron as a whole, while keeping it operational - these are two completely different tasks.
                2. +1
                  April 28 2019 12: 06
                  arrived in Japan in February


                  more precisely, if:
                  30.12.1903/XNUMX/XNUMX bought
                  07.01.1904/XNUMX/XNUMX set sail
                  16.02.1904 arrived
                  less than a month and a half to distill

                  you need to think with your head and work, and not arrange an unprecedented campaign for VTE
                  1. 0
                    April 28 2019 15: 09
                    Two ships, not thirty. In greenhouse conditions. Without conducting combat training on the go. Compare comparable things.
                    And as far as "Ioshino" is concerned, there are no objections?
                    1. 0
                      April 29 2019 08: 35
                      Two ships, not thirty.

                      what's the difference?
                      In greenhouse conditions.

                      yeah, did VTE break through with a fight or something?
                      Without conducting combat training on the go.

                      and what did 7 months spend on it?
                      Compare comparable things.

                      Well, then tell me how many times and how in 1903 Oslyabya and Aurora reached the PA, for example)
                      And as far as "Ioshino" is concerned, there are no objections?

                      and this has to do with it. take their fighting capacity on 28.07/XNUMX.
                      Threat. minus is not mine
                      1. +2
                        April 29 2019 09: 09
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        what's the difference?

                        On a scale. The Garibaldians simply drive. If you really like the automotive theme, then you have now compared the driving of two cars along the highway with the work of a motorcade in the field. Where there are no gas stations, no RMM, or even cabins for drivers
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        yeah, did VTE break through with a fight or something?

                        Of course not, but at the same time, unlike the Garibaldians, she did not have the opportunity to enter ports to receive coal and other things. The same bullshit with the Vireneus squad. But you at least read how he walked! Lost the Aurora hawse cover? Don't care, we're staying in Portland for six days. Bearing warmed up - we are in Algeria. it did not work out there, and Allah is with him, we go to La Spezia - we will fix ourselves there
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        and what did 7 months spend on it?

                        I apologize, did you serve in the army?
                      2. +1
                        April 29 2019 09: 17
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Threat. minus is not mine

                        You won’t believe it, but I don’t care. Immunity from samizdat.
            2. 0
              April 28 2019 11: 27
              Commercial ships do not bunker in non-equipped parking lots. Commercial ships have the opportunity to carry out repairs in any port, if such a need happens. In peacetime, commercial ships do not need to go caravan and adapt to the slowest ship. Finally, there are fewer crews who do not need to engage in combat training.


              Yes, comrade does not want to understand anything ....

              To what you have said, I will add that structurally the characteristics of any warship are brought to the currently possible limits. The stresses in all mechanisms are extreme. The operation of such mechanisms is complex in itself.
              While commercial ships are built based on the principles of profitability --- they are very, very far from the limits of the possible.
              1. +2
                April 28 2019 12: 08
                Yes, comrade does not want to understand anything ....


                and I’ll write for you too:
                Nissin: purchased on 30.12.1903, entered the voyage on 07.01.1904, arrived on 16.02.1904

                who "wants to understand" why "Alexander III" ended up under Tsushima in 1905, and not in Port Arthur in 1903, is in fact a traitor, well, I have such an opinion
      5. +2
        April 27 2019 17: 38
        Sailors from other ships - time for retraining.
        And the tsar will believe the word that the adventure in his ears blew others about the genius of the plan (just for career reasons, for example)
        Boats, of course, it’s a clinic, but what about decking?
        About evading coverage, it’s just that the squadron speed was less than that of the Japanese.
        Clinic, in principle, does not smell.
        1. +3
          April 27 2019 19: 45
          Sailors from other ships - time on Peretraining.


          And so on the preparation. And about 7 percent of the penalties I have not yet objected.

          And the king will believe the word


          "Rozhdestvensky ... declared that he was ready to immediately go to Port Arthur and meet the Japanese face to face. His almost Nelsonian speech sounded comical" (Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich)

          About evading coverage, it’s just that the squadron speed was less than that of the Japanese.


          Alexander and Borodino tried, at least. It almost worked out.

          but what about decking


          It burns worse. Overload could be less. Squadron speed could be higher. Survival measures could learn more and more and more.

          Let's talk about rebuilding. You understand that it is SO impossible to calculate the maneuver of two columns, it is almost the same as not being able to park the Zhigulenok in a 10x15 m garage? This means skill at the first lesson of a driving school.
          1. +1
            April 28 2019 09: 07
            Of course, our admiral’s maneuver didn’t calculate, but he missed that one too, so he had to start a turn under fire.
            Now about the free throws, you probably know that the English admiral Beatty manned the Tiger crew almost entirely with fined sailors, but they somehow do not blame him in the clinic.
            Read about the maneuvering of the same British admiral Evan Tomos in the Jutland battle, as he set up his own. squadron under the fire of the Germans.
            Well, of course, our clinic is for you, but the British and Japanese are simply not in criticism.
            1. +1
              April 28 2019 09: 41
              British admiral Beatty manned the crew of Tiger almost entirely with fined sailors, but he’s not somehow blamed in the clinic


              Well, how are these tales of Lyon's sworn friends? )
              honestly, I don’t know, I heard a thousand times that the team was supposedly bad, but what about
              completely fined
              I have never seen a proof - give?

              Read about the maneuvering of the same English admiral Evan Tomos

              read and more than once, not podstavlivaetsya, to be honest
          2. +1
            April 28 2019 10: 32
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            And so on the preparation. And about 7 percent of the penalties I have not yet objected.

            In other words, do you think that it was necessary to bring the Black Sea Fleet into a non-operational state, without having received any benefits for VTE?
            Alexander Mikhailovich

            wrote his book of memoirs after the revolution. That is, it is typical: - "smarter before my mother-in-law after".
            ZPR said this when Port Arthur still held on. When the army had not yet suffered a bunch of humiliating defeats ... in general, there were many things that were different from the spring of 1905.

            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            not be able to park the Zhigulenok in the garage 10x15 m?

            I have no doubt that you can, but the comparison is incorrect. It would be more correct to write about overtaking on a road train with three trailers. This task would be much closer ... which, however, does not negate the fact that the VTE ships were not able to maneuver.
            1. +2
              April 28 2019 11: 39
              VTE ships were not able to maneuver.


              But they shot pretty better than the 1st TOE. What is the direct merit of Rozhdestvensky - he organized training in shooting on the way. (Which in itself is far from easy.)

              But Rozhdestvensky denied any merit
              1. +1
                April 28 2019 11: 45
                Quote: AK64
                But Rozhdestvensky denied any merit

                PPKS!
              2. 0
                April 28 2019 17: 16
                If you take into account the consumption of shells, then 2nd shot worse in percentage terms. That's just the point is that in a naval battle, either a golden hit or the effect of large numbers
                1. +2
                  April 28 2019 19: 15
                  Quote: Nehist
                  If we consider the consumption of shells, then 2 I shot worse in percentage terms.

                  better
              3. 0
                April 28 2019 18: 53
                Quote: AK64
                But they shot pretty better than the 1st TOE. What is the direct merit of Rozhdestvensky - he organized training in shooting on the way. (Which in itself is far from easy.)

                Where did this fantasy come from? Recently, they just cursed about Pearls and Emerald .. So Captain Pearls, Levitsky, says in black and white - they almost did not engage in combat training, the practical shells taken in Kronstadt were not used up until Tsushima. You gentlemen, again lying corny! In addition to training in loading coal, the second squadron in nine months of the campaign did nothing!
        2. +3
          April 28 2019 09: 50
          And the tsar will believe the word that the adventure in his ears blew others about the genius of the plan (just for career reasons, for example)

          What "gamble"? Remember what the original plan was - to send reinforcements to the 1st TOE. What is "adventurous" here? Even a couple of EBRs would fundamentally change the balance of forces and lead to the defeat of Japan.
          And that is why the "interested persons" with all their might and under various pretexts first began to delay the exit, and delayed the exit until October (!!!!) instead of July-August. As a result, the 2nd TOE could not make it. Then the 2nd TOE was held for 3.5 months in Madagascar (which was a crime in itself).

          This is how a completely sensible plan for strengthening the 1st TOE became a "gamble"
          Boats it is of course a clinic

          No "clinic": the impact of all these "deck boats" is greatly exaggerated.
      6. +5
        April 28 2019 18: 18
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        there’s a bunch of negative opinions about every big boss, it’s not a problem to find a bunch of negative reviews - I’m not ready to support them completely,

        As for the "strict boss" I understand, but the case with Rozhdestvensky is quite a clinic ..

        lieutenant P.N. Schmidt in a letter to his wife of October 17, 1904:
        ".. Rozhestvensky left here with all the signs of violent insanity and complete frantic abnormality, .. After all, he fired a revolver at his ship's doctor on the Revel roadstead, shouting to the sentry" aim at the head, "because the doctor did not loudly shout the password, although I saw perfectly well that the doctor was waiting for him .. "


        The emperor’s order, suddenly pulling Rozhdestvensky out of the easy chair of the chief of the Main Naval Headquarters, shocked the admiral very much! For some reason, he did not expect that the war would affect him so directly .. Rozhdestvensky had not been particularly restrained before, but after the tsar’s direct order, the finished psychopath appeared to command the squadron.

        Lieutenant Vladimirsky was not so joking, suggesting that the admiral would cling to someone with his teeth for an instant .. From Rozhdestvensky by that time they had already seriously expected something like that.

        Honestly, this would be a salvation for the squadron. The admiral would go back to the cabin with soft walls, and one of the younger flagships would lead the squadron further.

        The same Felkersam was considered a very competent commander, and unlike Rozhestvensky, he really enjoyed the respect of his subordinates. And even Nebogatov, for all his hostility, disposed of him quite sensibly, and with a high probability would have avoided such gross errors as Rozhdestvensky.

        In general, the catastrophe of Tsushima is entirely the merit of Admiral Rozhdestvensky. Any of the younger flagships would have brought the squadron to Vladivostok, even having lost a couple of three warships.
      7. 0
        April 30 2019 14: 27
        The fact of discord.
        I’m not ready to judge sailors with the Black Sea Fleet, but there are doubts about the meaning of such an action at that time, because there was a plan to send a squadron with the Black Sea Fleet to the Far East.
        This campaign became an adventure after the fall of Port Arthur and Rozhdestvensky did not have the opportunity to prove anything to the king while in the Indian Ocean.
        Preparing ships for battle is first of all experience and attitude to their work. On a number of ships, their commanders gave the appropriate orders. Therefore, this is a common mistake.
        The idea of ​​such a maneuver was correct, but the execution was disgusting. The death of "Oslyabi" is a topic for a separate article. Christmas bad teacher.
        Almost the entire battle is a constant evasion of head coverage. He succeeded only in the late phase of the battle, after a significant loss of course by damaged armadillos.
    2. 0
      April 27 2019 10: 44
      I fully support !!
    3. +8
      April 27 2019 11: 17
      Quote: Saxahorse
      All the bad things that have been said about the outhouse-adjutant Rozhestvensky are true. Officers of the Navy Rozhestvensky despised!

      So what? :))))) Saksaors, do you even scribble your comments from which planet?
      Okay, I'll tell you a story. There was such a plant in Transbaikalia in 6 500 people, and everything was bad on it. We worked in 4 shifts (yes, sometimes it happens), did not fulfill the plan, the costs were enormous, the losses were up to 50 million rubles per month.
      And then a new general came. You can even say that he is a tyrant, because he loved to yell at his subordinates and, it seems, got serious pleasure from it. And he literally walked around the plant, everyone who tried not to resist him, but at least to ignore his orders, flew out of the plant with a bullet. Top management, heads of shops and so on were afraid to cough in front of him, to deprive him of bonuses or dismiss a person, what to spit. For him, human rights did not exist as a concept, he was focused only on the result. His best praise for you was ... silence. If someone heard from him "I have no questions for you" - he was in seventh heaven with happiness and was proud of it.
      They scolded him, hated him, despised him (to himself, naturally). But it was with him that the plant became the best in the holding, went to profit, the shop managers were surprised to find that they no longer need to go home on 2 nights to be on the morning planning meeting that morning, and the management suddenly began to receive a bonus for premium from the management company of the holding.
      Did you love him after that? No :)))))) And he was one of the best general directors with whom I had to work.
      1. +3
        April 27 2019 19: 33
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: Saxahorse
        All the bad things that have been said about the outhouse-adjutant Rozhestvensky are true. Officers of the Navy Rozhestvensky despised!

        So what? :))))) Saksaors, do you even scribble your comments from which planet?
        Okay, I'll tell you a story. There was such a plant in Transbaikalia in 6 500 people, and everything was bad on it. We worked in 4 shifts (yes, sometimes it happens), did not fulfill the plan, the costs were enormous, the losses were up to 50 million rubles per month.
        And then a new general came. You can even say that he is a tyrant, because he loved to yell at his subordinates and, it seems, got serious pleasure from it. And he literally walked around the plant, everyone who tried not to resist him, but at least to ignore his orders, flew out of the plant with a bullet. Top management, heads of shops and so on were afraid to cough in front of him, to deprive him of bonuses or dismiss a person, what to spit. For him, human rights did not exist as a concept, he was focused only on the result. His best praise for you was ... silence. If someone heard from him "I have no questions for you" - he was in seventh heaven with happiness and was proud of it.
        They scolded him, hated him, despised him (to himself, naturally). But it was with him that the plant became the best in the holding, went to profit, the shop managers were surprised to find that they no longer need to go home on 2 nights to be on the morning planning meeting that morning, and the management suddenly began to receive a bonus for premium from the management company of the holding.
        Did you love him after that? No :)))))) And he was one of the best general directors with whom I had to work.

        The end justifies the means - one of the worst principles invented by short-sighted people.
        1. +1
          April 28 2019 11: 40
          Quote: Doliva63
          The end justifies the means - one of the worst principles invented by short-sighted people.

          That is, it would be better to leave everything as it is, and get a bankrupt enterprise in six months and 6 500 people. unemployed in a city where exactly one of the 6 large enterprises would be left? I love moralists - ready for any sacrifices, in the name of justice! laughing
          "At the end of the century, took and refuted,
          Evil man, kind man,
          From a grenade launcher - slap him, goat!
          Therefore, good is stronger than evil "
      2. +2
        April 28 2019 19: 01
        So what? :))))) Saksaors, do you even scribble your comments from which planet?


        This general of yours also shot his doctor from a revolver !? laughing

        The catastrophe of Tsushima is entirely the merit of Christmas! Any of the younger flagships, and even any of the caperands, would have brought the squadron to Vladik even if it lost a couple of ships. You need to be a complete psychopath like Rozhestvensky so that having almost equal powers to allow defeat on such a scale!
    4. +2
      April 29 2019 17: 15
      The absolute truth, colleague!
      Not only is the cynodral and mediocrity, but also a scoundrel.
      Having killed the squadron entrusted to him and led Russia to a shameful peace, he allowed himself to live as if nothing had happened, to portray an oppositionist to the "regime."
      As for A.S. Novikov-Priboy, he simply colorfully described the attitude of lower ranks, conductors and junior officers to his superiors. Hence the conclusion - the commander led the squadron into battle, the personnel of which did not believe in victory. Also his commander, merit.
  7. +3
    April 26 2019 22: 05
    Underestimating the adversary is always very dangerous. The weak Russian fleet could not defeat the Japanese with all its desire. For the Americans, it took several years in World War II and many bloody battles. The Japanese should have been smashed on land exactly as they did in 1945, in this respect the war against the Kwantung Army is the ideal of operational art. By the way, in 1945, the Pacific Fleet also did not shine, unlike the land army.
    1. +1
      April 27 2019 00: 29
      It is curious how, in your opinion, could the Pacific Fleet shine with the times of the Second World War, taking into account the fact that it did not include a single AV, LNK or at least CTD?
      Maybe it was worth sending a couple of guards to Leyte Gulf to help the American Navy?
      1. +2
        April 27 2019 00: 57
        Quote: Ivanchester
        It is curious how, in your opinion, could the Pacific Fleet shine with the times of the Second World War, taking into account the fact that it did not include a single AV, LNK or at least CTD?
        Maybe it was worth sending a couple of guards to Leyte Gulf to help the American Navy?

        The capture of the islands through the landing was carried out by the Pacific Fleet. Not everywhere it was done correctly. Not to reproach the command of the Pacific Fleet. It’s just that the land operation was carried out by commanders who passed all of Europe and crushed the most powerful army in the world. But the command of the Pacific Fleet did not have this experience.
      2. 0
        April 27 2019 17: 41
        Well, given the fact that by the year 45 the Japanese had no fuel left for the fleet, they could have flashed.
        True, with the outbreak of war in 1945 they began to set mines (which is interesting against whom)?
    2. -3
      April 27 2019 14: 00
      Underestimating the adversary is always very dangerous. The weak Russian fleet could not defeat the Japanese with all its desire.

      Absolutely nonsense: the 2nd TOE was not supposed to "overcome" anything - it had only and only to break through to Vladik. (albeit with losses.)

      She could do it. (If not for one BUT, which I will not mention here)
    3. +2
      April 27 2019 16: 04
      By and large, our admirals somehow did not shine. Ordinary sailors and officers proved themselves, and admirals ..
  8. +4
    April 26 2019 22: 11
    Andrei, good afternoon!

    Thank you for the next article.
    Nevertheless, I would like to ask: if you still admit the thought of the tactical illiteracy of the CRA and that he made paradoxical decisions from time to time, isn’t the situation with hospital courts more logical?

    On Monday I will reveal my thought in more detail when I get to the computer - it’s difficult to type large text on the phone. feel
    1. +2
      April 26 2019 22: 49
      Quote: Ivanchester
      Since he made paradoxical decisions from time to time, does the situation with hospital courts become more logical?

      Sorry . Let's say I'm a completely land-based pedestrian. Jellico or Beatty, or "Von Hipper"
      did hospital ships take with them? Or, returning to the battle in the Yellow Sea, where Witgeft
      killed (by the way, I would like to hear opinions on the role of Witgeft), he’s hospital with him
      took the court? And the admiral of Togo?
      Illusions of prejudice ... Humanism. ..And the sinking of the Britannica by a mine.
      1. +3
        April 27 2019 00: 15
        I, apparently, not quite clearly expressed.
        In my opinion, the decision to take hospital ships with a breakthrough was one of many paradoxical decisions of Admiral Rozhestvensky confirming his tactical illiteracy.
      2. +2
        April 27 2019 03: 14
        Quote: Private SA
        Returning to the battle in the Yellow Sea, where Witgeft was killed, did he take hospital ships with him?

        "Mongolia".

        Quote: Private SA
        And the admiral of Togo?

        He also took it, and not one.
      3. +3
        April 27 2019 07: 53
        Quote: Private SA
        he is with him hospital
        court took

        Mongolia
      4. +3
        April 27 2019 10: 56
        Quote: Private SA
        Jellico or Beatty or "Von Hipper"
        with a hospital court took?

        Not. And why, if they were in close proximity to their own bases? And then, they acted taking into account the knowledge of the RIA
        About Togo and Vitgefta you already answered
        1. +2
          April 27 2019 11: 14
          already answered


          but it turned out not at all convincing

          IMHO Vitgeft took a hospital ship with him to have a powerful medical base in Vladivostok, and not to transfer the wounded to her under fire, this time
          the distance from Tsushima to Vladivostok is quite comparable with the distance from Helgoland to Scapa Flow, again, there’s a materiel, sir, these are two
          1. +1
            April 28 2019 15: 11
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            IMHO Vitgeft took a hospital ship with him to have a powerful medical base in Vladivostok

            Are you claiming that next year the medical base in Vladik has dramatically improved?
      5. +1
        April 27 2019 17: 27
        Quote: Private SA
        By the way, I would like to hear opinions on the role of Wittgeft

        The same author has a series of articles devoted to the battle in the Yellow Sea. There is also about Wilhelm Karlovich.
        1. 0
          April 28 2019 19: 05
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          The same author has a series of articles devoted to the battle in the Yellow Sea. There is also about Wilhelm Karlovich.

          Frankly, an extremely subjective look. Like most of our friend’s articles from Chelyabinsk.
    2. 0
      April 27 2019 10: 56
      Quote: Ivanchester
      Nevertheless, I would like to ask: if you still admit the thought of tactical illiteracy ZPR

      I admit, but I do not see confirmation :)
      1. 0
        April 27 2019 11: 22
        Nevertheless, I would like to ask: if, nevertheless, to admit the idea of ​​tactical illiteracy of ZPR, I admit, but I don’t see confirmation for them :)

        belay

        Consider a virtual example:
        suppose "Tekstilshchik" Kamyshinsky set out to kick Manchester United and got a score of 0:12 (I think about lost heavy ships)
        Andrey from Chelyabinsk does not see any problems in the adequacy of the management of the football club Kamyshinsky "Tekstilshchik"

        "bun crunched" (c) laughing
        1. 0
          April 27 2019 11: 28
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          Consider a virtual example:

          will consider
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          suppose "Tekstilshchik" Kamyshinsky intends to kick Manchester United

          And now let us recall that Rozhestvensky NEVER undertook to crush the Japanese fleet and strongly urged the king to abandon this adventure - and we understand that your example is completely inadequate
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          "bun crunched" (c)

          And the person who cited this example is extremely far from adequate, as I see
          1. 0
            April 27 2019 12: 52
            First, if it was not going to, then why play.
            Secondly, played with a score of 0: 12.
            Thirdly, Rudeness is a sign of weakness. Except rudeness there is nothing to answer to the account 0: 12?
            1. -1
              April 27 2019 14: 03
              Thirdly, Rudeness is a sign of weakness.

              Ham here you are.
              Except rudeness there is nothing to answer to the account 0: 12?

              (1) Ham here you are
              (2) Yes - but you still won’t understand. So it’s worth saving the beads
              1. 0
                April 27 2019 14: 34
                Drain counted negative
            2. 0
              April 27 2019 16: 11
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              First, if it was not going to, then why play.

              Order
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              Secondly, played with a score of 0: 12.

              Yes. The only question is why?
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              Third, Rudeness is a sign of weakness

              Only now, having started to write to me about "crust-baking" you for some reason forgot about it. And now: "And what about me?" :)))))
              1. 0
                April 27 2019 16: 30
                I apologize, among my friends, this means an inexplicable passion for enthusiasm about the Russian Empire at the beginning of the 20th century, regardless of success or failure in a particular situation. I absolutely did not want to say anything personal offensive. Colleague Saxahorse uses the exact same meme. I apologize again if it was misunderstood
                1. 0
                  April 27 2019 16: 41
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  I apologize, among my friends, this means an inexplicable passion for the enthusiasm about the Russian empire of the early 20 century

                  Where is she with me, please tell me? Should I accuse me of "inexplicable passion" only on the grounds that I have a high opinion of ZP Rozhdestvensky? In my opinion, the Russian Empire and the ZPR are still not the same thing.
                  At the same time, I have said several times in the text of the article that the decision of the CRA to carry along the hospital ships is a mistake. I just also think that he had reasons to consider it differently for the moment. That is, his decision was, albeit erroneous, but still quite logical calculation.
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  I apologize again if I was misunderstood

                  In that case, I accept your apologies and, in turn, I also apologize for my sharpness. hi It will be nice to return to a constructive discussion. drinks
            3. +1
              April 30 2019 15: 35
              The owner of Manchester challenged the owner of the Textile Worker and he accepted it. The textile worker’s trainer says that he won’t be able to win, but the owner says what is needed ...
              Would that suit you?
              1. -2
                April 30 2019 18: 11
                the whole trouble is that I gave the wrong example, I apologize

                in RYAV Kamyshinsky "Tekstilshchik" (Japan, that is), kicked at Tsushima 12: 0 Manchester United (Russia, that is)
                since the coach of Manchester United scored everything in the world

                so it will be more correct, sorry, to blame, dunce, I will correct
      2. +3
        April 28 2019 17: 21
        ... At the commission of inquiry, Nebogatov testified: "There was no battle plan or instructions regarding it, in general what intentions Rozhdestvensky had — this is unknown to me"; Rear Admiral Enquist: "The question was not raised about the upcoming military operations during our campaign, neither I nor my commanders were privy to the commander's plans. Our opinion was also not asked ... I did not know at all where we were going and from by what calculation, "Rozhdestvensky himself:" There was no meeting of the flagships to discuss a detailed battle plan, because there was no development itself.
      3. +3
        April 29 2019 11: 47
        I will try to describe what I see as a confirmation of the hypothesis of illiteracy.
        I apologize in advance for some confusion in the presentation of thoughts smile

        Apparently (although the vice admiral did not say so directly), he still hoped to inflict such damage on the Japanese that would not allow them to resume the battle the next day.


        Admiral Rozhdestvensky, in my opinion, was mediocrity, but not crazy. The commander of the “stupid second squadron”, reinforced by the “rot that remained in the ports of the Baltic Sea”, could hardly have hoped to give Togo so that he could not continue the battle the next day - he had absolutely no reason for this, including battle results in fm. If this assumption were the basis of the conclusions of the ZPR, then it would itself speak of the extreme degree of its naivety and, accordingly, illiteracy. But I still do not think that it was the case.
        It is more likely that Rozhdestvensky hoped, using the darkness or poor visibility, to break contact with Togo's ships after the afternoon battle of 14 in May (which ZPR himself considered inevitable) and, bypassing the narrowness of the Korean Channel, get lost in the expanses of the Sea of ​​Japan. Only in this case, there was a chance to reach Vladivostok "even with the loss of several ships."
        But if this is so, then it is obvious that the squadron had to go to Vladivostok as quickly as possible without delay, which is clearly confirmed by the events that occurred with the cruiser Dmitry Donskoy.
        Of course, I could not have foreseen the fate of the Donskoy ZPR, but I didn’t have to have seven spans on my forehead to understand that the long parking needed to transfer the wounded from battleships to hospital ships with the help of whaleboats would significantly increase the Japanese ability to detect our ships.
        You commented to some of the commentators that there was no need to detain the entire squadron to transfer the wounded, but it’s rather difficult to agree with this, since in this case the ships that would deliver the wounded (and this would most likely be the first detachment’s EDB) would be in a doomed position if they were subsequently alone discovered by the enemy. The increased risk of loss of ships in this situation far outweighs the risk of the loss of several members of their crews from the lack of qualified medical care.
        Based on the foregoing, I conclude: either ZPR did not plan to transfer the wounded to hospital ships after the battle of May 14 (but then why did he take them to the breakthrough?), Or planned without realizing that the loss of time associated with this could to be fatal (which is illiteracy, in my understanding).

        But ... was the win in a few hours so significant? Indeed, from the point of view of the Russian commander, the Japanese could calmly give the battle not 14, but 15 in May if, for example, they had found the Russians 14 late in the evening


        In my opinion, your question is rather strange. If the Russians were to find the 14th late in the evening, then at night from the 14th to the 15th they could have lost, and in the morning the 15th could not be found. The preferability of such a scenario is quite obvious.

        "Eagle" and "Kostroma" received a direct order from Z.P. Rozhestvensky go at night on 6 miles behind squadron


        Tell me, how should the hospital ships carry out this order of the admiral?
        Taking into account the fact that they could not measure the distance to the ships ahead, because did not see them, and the radar on the "Eagle" and "Kostroma" were absent.
        I think, most likely, hospital ships at night simply followed the course they had previously set with a certain course (for example, 8 nodes).
        And in this case, even a small error in determining the speed of travel (for example, on the 0.5 node) could lead to the fact that trying to fulfill the order in good faith, the hospital ships would be significantly closer to the main forces of the squadron by dawn than was intended (and it is quite possible that so it happened).
        Therefore, it is difficult to call an order given by the DPR.
  9. +3
    April 26 2019 23: 21
    In general, it can be assumed that the presence of hospital courts, even with certain difficulties in transferring the wounded after the battle, could save many lives.


    transfer the wounded to another ship at five points and breaking through with battle in Vladivostok? belay
    my body would not have mastered this feel

    This consideration cancels all others in the article)
    1. 0
      April 27 2019 10: 54
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      This consideration cancels all others in the article)

      No, Andrey, it cancels only your ability of critical analysis. How interesting is the CRA to know what the excitement will be after the fight?
      By the way, the wounded were raised and handed over - even if only the ZPR to the destroyer. I'm not talking about the wounded from the dead ships, who were supposed to be rescued by "pebbles" and torpedo boats - who would prevent them from being handed over to hospital ships?
      1. +7
        April 27 2019 11: 10
        transfer the wounded to another ship

        breaking through with a fight to Vladivostok


        1. rescue ZPR - above aerobatics at that time
        2. For the transfer of heavy wounded squadron in any case should stop for a few hours
        3.it is easier to get to Vladivostok and moor there, than to haul heavy on a hospital ship

        for fans of "critical analysis" the question:
        how many, whom, when and why did warships be transferred to hospital ships in the real Tsushima battle?
        1. +1
          April 27 2019 11: 30
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          salvation CRA - higher aerobatics at the time
          2. For the transfer of heavy wounded squadron in any case should stop for a few hours

          Another fantasy from Andrei. Look at the level of excitement - a maximum of 5 points, is it something impossible? :)))) And why, for example, the whole squadron should stop in the process of transferring the wounded from the dead ship to Orel or Kostroma?
          1. +2
            April 27 2019 12: 39
            An amateur of critical analysis threw the first question: I repeat: how many, whom, when and why were the warships handed over to hospital ships in a real Tsushima battle?

            You can answer - let's go over the rest of your conclusions)
            1. -1
              April 27 2019 16: 12
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              An amateur of critical analysis threw the first question: I repeat: how many, whom, when and why were the warships handed over to hospital ships in a real Tsushima battle?

              No one. And what does that prove? :)))))
              1. +2
                April 27 2019 16: 23
                That they should not have to take with you. Yes
                1. 0
                  April 27 2019 16: 43
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  That they should not have to take with you.

                  Destroyers 2TOE no one sank mines. They also did not need to take with you? hi
                  1. 0
                    April 27 2019 17: 07
                    Why, they could play an important role. Some played. Floating hospitals should be let go separately, from the moment the squadron was opened to Vladivostok, IMHO, there would be no sense from them, and the unmasking and burden were notable hi By the way, the article is interesting, I liked it, only the eulogy of Rozhdestvensky is shocking
          2. +3
            April 28 2019 19: 15
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            another fantasy from Andrew. Look at the level of excitement - a maximum of 5 points, is that something impossible? :))))

            Actually, the excitement of 5 points is a lot !!! All boats available on ships are designed for excitement up to 4 balls. our friend Andrei, it’s high time to remember at least something from the multitude of books that have not been read or copied about the sea ..
  10. +3
    April 26 2019 23: 57
    Although the real Zinovy ​​Petrovich, of course, was very different from his caricature-popular print in the same Tsushima A.S. Novikov-Priboy.

    And what are the reasons not to believe Novikov-Priboi, one of the middle-lower ranks, who served in the same squadron and saw the admiral personally, all the more knew about his many talents from his comrades, that is, from the primary sources? Why was there not a single eyewitness writer in the squadrons of Ushakov or even Essen, who would decide to make a "caricature-popular" image of them? Why did the soldiers sincerely love and believe in the commander Suvorov, and hated the "commander" Mehlis?
    1. +5
      April 27 2019 00: 12
      And what reason not to believe Novikov-Surf

      In Tsushima, did you read a description of how, before the breakthrough of Emerald, his commander, Baron Fersen, held a general gathering, delivered a speech full of pathetic eulogies, and only after that gave the order to increase the speed? This is the moment when every second was counted. Or a dramatic description of how the officers kneeled in the cabin of the Suvorov battleship, fearing Japanese shells?
      “Tsushima” is a purely artistic work, with a fair amount of copyright.
      1. +2
        April 27 2019 07: 06
        Quote: Ivanchester
        “Tsushima” is a purely artistic work, with a fair amount of copyright.


        Well, everything is learned by comparison. Next to "Tsushima" "Reckoning" is a boring illiterate hack.
        1. 0
          April 27 2019 10: 47
          Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
          Next to "Tsushima" "Reckoning" - a boring illiterate hack.

          Generally speaking, exactly the opposite :))
          1. +1
            April 27 2019 14: 05
            Generally speaking, exactly the opposite :))

            The guys are biased. They do not understand that Semyonov is an officer and a hero, and was in the conning tower. But the battalion was sitting under three layers of armor and did not see the battle at all.
            1. -1
              April 27 2019 15: 01
              A hero is, for example, Ushakov. And Semenov is just a man who survived 0: 12. Like Novikov. Kostenko, IMHO, did more of Semenov.
              1. +4
                April 27 2019 15: 18
                A hero is, for example, Ushakov. And Semenov is just a man who survived 0: 12. Like Novikov. Kostenko, IMHO, did more of Semenov.


                That is, you don’t know anything about Semenov, and even lazy to look at Wiki?

                Semenov began the war in Port Arthur. Among other things, he commanded a destroyer (but was personally shot by Alekseev, who Semyonov did not like personally). Then he was an old man on Diana.
                On Diana, after the battle in the Yellow Sea, he went to Saigon. From Saigon, almost running, straining all my strength, I rushed to Russia to catch the 2nd TOE. I barely managed. Participated in Tsushima, and not sitting under armor, but in the wheelhouse and on the deck. Was injured.
                From wounds and from stresses in and after the war, Semenov died in 1908 as a fairly young man.

                And Kostenko? And what did Kostenko "do"? Lied? Only the lazy did not catch him on lies.
                1. +1
                  April 27 2019 16: 44
                  There is even nothing to add hi
                  1. +1
                    April 28 2019 19: 48
                    Lied without you. What is there to supplement .. laughing
                2. +3
                  April 27 2019 19: 51
                  I reread Semenov three times. I think the source is much worse than Novikov. Not to mention Kostenko.

                  Judging by your communication style
                  even on Wiki look lazy?
                  You have no arguments, never had and never will. All the best! Dumb cons are also a sign of weakness. )
                  1. +2
                    April 28 2019 19: 18
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    I reread Semenov three times. I think the source is much worse than Novikov. Not to mention Kostenko.

                    That's right :)) You take Novikov and Kostenko, who have been caught many times in direct lies and Semenov, to whom you could not prove a single case of fraud, and declared him the worst source
                    Andrew, where is the impartiality? :)))
                    1. 0
                      April 28 2019 19: 45
                      Andrew, where is the impartiality? :)))


                      I expressed my opinion that Kostenko presents (as he can, sometimes, as he wants) a lot of data, therefore Kostenko is interesting as a source, but needs to be verified, and Semenov is all about how ZPR broke pencils and how everyone wanted to save him, according to the facts Semenov nothing at all, only well-known platitudes, here it is clearly worse

                      I have already replied to my respected colleague "Senior Sailor" that this is precisely why the cases of Semenov's deception are not proven, but presumed (this is such a subtlety of legal terminology), for which I gave an example about the breakthrough of new battleships and the possible separation of part of the forces under the command of Nebogatov (here I presume him )
                    2. +3
                      April 29 2019 01: 55
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Semenova, to which you could not prove a single case of fraud,


                      In a sense, you believe in shells tumbling "like gorodosh sticks", about the explosion of a shell from touching the backstay of the pipe, about "ridiculous muttering", that is. is the projectile speed much less than the sound one? About a man who fell through the deck of a bridge? And then came alive? Of course, this Munich Gas Games is basically, let's say, not a lie, a nervous reaction of a cowardly, untrained person. In those circumstances, I probably would not have imagined such a thing. But here's a fictional Japanese who commanded a destroyer in a super-secret operation in the English Channel (that is, during the "Hull incident"), and so the poor fellow caught a cold that he spent a year later in the hospital. And even in the next bed with a prisoner of war. Moreover, he blurted out secrets to this prisoner of war. Will you believe in this insanity?
                      1. +3
                        1 May 2019 09: 24
                        Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
                        I mean, you believe in shells tumbling "like gorodosh sticks"

                        It is more than possible. Moreover, I would be very surprised if it were different.
                        Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
                        about the explosion of the projectile from grazing the backstay of the pipe

                        Oddly enough, it is not he alone who speaks about the detonation of Japanese shells while grabbing the rigging.
                        Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
                        about "absurd mumbling", i.e. is the projectile speed much less than the sound one?

                        Semenov does not write that the sound was ahead of the projectile, so that it could be supersonic, the description does not contradict this
                        It began with flights. Some of the long Japanese shells at this distance overturned and, clearly visible with the naked eye, spinning like a stick thrown while playing in the towns, flew over our heads not with a terrible roar, as the projectile relies, but with some absurd mutter.

                        Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
                        About a man who fell through the deck of a bridge? And then appeared alive?

                        What's the problem?
                        Now Bogdanov has passed. He told me that everything was killed, the fire, everyone was gone. He went out - the bridge is broken - failed. Successfully - straight to me. Whole

                        Firstly, Semenov did not see this himself, but tells us from the words, secondly, this is a fall from the second floor, what is deadly in this? I also clung along the road, probably
                        Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
                        Of course, this munhgaziad is basically, let's say, not a lie, a nervous reaction of a cowardly unstripped person.

                        No, it's just putting the owl on the globe that you know why you are doing.
                3. +4
                  April 28 2019 19: 47
                  Quote: AK64
                  That is, you don’t know anything about Semenov, and even lazy to look at Wiki?

                  Better yet, read the materials of the criminal case about the surrender of the squadron of Nebogatov and the destroyer Bedovy to the enemy .. This is where Semenov’s long tongue helped him for the first time .. to get away from being shot!
                4. -1
                  April 29 2019 04: 10
                  Quote: AK64
                  From wounds and from stresses in and after the war, Semenov died in 1908 as a fairly young man.


                  Could pleurisy be a consequence of shrapnel wounds 5 years ago?
                  Somehow I'm not very sure. Ballerina Anna Pavlova died of pleurisy at 49 years old without any injuries.
            2. +1
              April 28 2019 19: 45
              Quote: AK64
              They do not understand that Semyonov is an officer and a hero, and was in the conning tower.

              The guys understand that Semenov is a liar and a traitor. It was he who organized the delivery of the destroyer Bedovy and Admiral Rozhdestvensky to the enemy. The fact that he eventually managed to escape from the execution is not plus Semenov.
          2. 0
            April 29 2019 05: 15
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Generally speaking, exactly the opposite :))


            Let's start with volume. The NP has a description of the Tsushima battle 514 pages (2nd volume, ed. 1985). Semenov has a pamphlet on the strength of pages 40 (477-517, ed. Yauza 2008) So of these two figures, who has the best written?

            NP abundantly quotes: "Description of military actions of 37-38 years. Meiji era", "Russian-Japanese war at sea" (edition of the Naval General Staff), materials of the trial of Nebogatov. If the NP had not been in battle and had not questioned other sailors at all, then Tsushima would have had a certain value as a generalizing material. It is interesting, even apart from Semyonov, are there many authors of "officer's" memoirs who have overcome all three primary sources? I don’t know of such examples. Clapier-de-Colong described the Tsushima battle simply as his own personal observations, as if he was not the second leader after Rozhdestvensky. Semyonov, I don't understand how he could write about the 18 cm guns on the Nissin and Kassuga? The man in Port Arthur fought with the enemy fleet for six months and could not remember what caliber two of the six main ships of the enemy have? And this idiot still got a drop or two? And he definitely fought, and did not sit on the "Angar"? The NP definitely does not have such insanity.
            1. +2
              April 30 2019 08: 40
              Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
              Let's start with volume

              this, in principle, can be finished. If size matters to you in such matters, then, in essence, there is nothing to talk about. But so, just for a change - Tarle, in his modest size "Napoleon" gives a much better description not only of the war of 1812, but also of the whole Napoleonic opupe than Tolstoy in "War and Peace", although the latter is much more voluminous
              Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
              NP abundantly quotes: "Description of military operations of 37-38 years. Meiji era", "Russian-Japanese war at sea" (edition of the Naval General Staff), materials of the trial of Nebogatov.

              Did you read them yourself? :))))) I read, so I say - it does not quote, but it misinterprets, and very often. Pulling phrases out of context, and without even bothering with this.
              I'm not talking about Meiji - the German critic of works on the Russian-Japanese war, Admiral Meurer in 1925. This Japanese work said:
              "The Japanese description of the war is biased and can be used
              only with great reservations. Secret operating plans and mistakes carefully
              veiled. If they want history to be a great teacher, then this can be achieved
              under the sign of unconditional truthfulness. Against this basic principle of all historical
              research Japanese official work grossly sinned repeatedly.

              Then - just killed, stabbed and buried
              Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
              It is interesting, even apart from Semyonov, are there many authors of "officer's" memoirs who have overcome all three primary sources?

              Nothing that two of them appeared after his death?
              Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
              Semyonov, I don't understand how he could write about the 18 cm guns on the Nissin and Kassuga? The man in Port Arthur fought with the enemy fleet for six months and could not remember what caliber two of the six main ships of the enemy have?

              W ... whatoooo? :)))))))
              Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
              And this idiot still got a drop or two? And he definitely fought, and did not sit on the "Angar"? The NP definitely does not have such insanity.

              My friend, the fool is here, fresh, but this is definitely not Semenov. First, where did you get the mythical 18-cm guns from? Apparently - from here
              The next day, among the wreckage, we found the bottom of this shell with a mark of 18 s / m. - Obviously it was received from the "Kassugi" or "Nissin", which alone had such artillery

              Now tell me, what kind of "intelligence" do you need to have to translate s / m as a centimeter? Has Google banned you? Don't you know that "cm" stands for centimeter, but not "s / m"? A centimeter in Italian is a centimetro, if that :))))
              1. +1
                April 30 2019 16: 17
                the bottom of this shell is 18 s / m. - Obviously it was received from Kassugi or Nissin, which some had such artillery

                SW colleague, do not explain to me what kind of artillery Nissin and Kassuga (both!) had, which wasn’t on other guns. BrK? Or is it better to explain to colleague Sasha the steering?
                1. +1
                  April 30 2019 17: 56
                  Quote: anzar
                  H. colleague, do not explain to me what kind of artillery Nissin and Kassug (both!) had, which was not available for the other Japanese. BrK?

                  Well, EMNIP, 8 "/ 45 (20.3 cm) EOC Pattern" W "(other Japanese cruisers had other modifications of the same gun), and the six-inch guns seemed to be slightly different too.
                  But, dear colleague, the question has been posed incorrectly. But it would be correct to formulate it as follows - what weapons were in service with the Nissin and Kasuga according to the Russian data that we had in the RYAV? I wouldn't really be surprised at 180mm guns either.
                  1. +1
                    April 30 2019 21: 10
                    8 "/ 45 (20.3 cm) EOC Pattern" W "(other Japanese cruisers had other modifications of the same gun)

                    Yes, the Italian Ansaldo (licensed), but the shells for them in 1905 are already unknown which, i.e. the inscription on the shell .... Yes, and how can the ship be recognized if you read the inscription as a caliber in cm? After all, he is the same on other BrK.
                    But it would be correct to formulate it as follows - what weapons were in service with the Nissin and Kasuga according to the Russian data that we had in the RYAV? I wouldn't really be surprised at 180mm guns either.

                    Her, do not, because Yeti ships were offered to Russia. And then the secrecy was still not very applied in shipbuilding.
                    But, dear colleague, the question is posed incorrectly

                    I agree uv. colleague, I had to ask "what does the brand 18 s / m spore you")))))
                  2. 0
                    April 30 2019 21: 56
                    But, dear colleague, the question has been posed incorrectly. But it would be correct to formulate it as follows - what weapons were in service with the Nissin and Kasuga according to the Russian data that we had in the RYAV? I wouldn't really be surprised at 180mm guns either.


                    Some stuff:



                    taken from here

                    1. +1
                      1 May 2019 08: 21
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      Some stuff:

                      Jane for 1904. What does this have to do with this materiel? :))) It is a bit late for the Arturians
                      1. 0
                        1 May 2019 09: 17
                        Jane for 1904. What does this have to do with this materiel? :))) It is a bit late for the Arturians

                        lol
                        Yeah, and until the writing of his trilogy, Semenov had no chance to get acquainted with it
              2. 0
                April 30 2019 17: 40
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Now tell me, what kind of "intelligence" do you need to have to translate s / m as a centimeter?


                Really, which one?

                Semenov uses, from a great intellect, apparently, foreign letters s / m in the sense of "centimeter". "s / m" in Russian letters is the designation of the word "centimeter" in Russian texts of that time.

                Compare:

                searchlights give a murky, milky-white ray that not only illuminates distant objects, but blinds your eyes and makes it difficult to see; ours - 60 s / m - with difficulty took on 12 cable ones, and even serfs - 90 s / m - were not enough beyond 2 1/2 miles.
                ("Pay")

                On ships usually use combat lights with a mirror diametrom from 40 to 75 s / m. (16 to 30 inches). These floodlights illuminate objects clear 2-6 versts on a clear night.
                ("RUSSIAN IMPERIAL FLEET. 1913")

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Nothing that two of them appeared after his death?


                The NP had an order of magnitude more time, an order of magnitude more sources, the consultants were the color of Soviet naval historical science. That is why Tsushima turned out to be an order of magnitude better than Reckoning. It's not Semyonov's fault. Maybe if he had more time, and some kind of competent editor, the marasmus about 18-centimeter guns or, as the Japanese shell was 22 times higher than the Russian in explosive power, would have been cleaned up. But it didn't work out. Here, personally, there are no claims to Semenov.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Tarle, in his modest size "Napoleon", gives a much better description not only of the war of 1812, but of the entire Napoleonic opupe than Tolstoy in "War and Peace",


                It is so. Only Tolstoy did not write about the Napoleonic opupa, but about Natasha Rostov, Pierre Bezukhov and Nikolai Rostov (both against the background of this opupa and other events before and after it).
                1. +2
                  1 May 2019 09: 07
                  Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
                  Semenov uses, from a great intellect, apparently, foreign letters s / m in the sense of "centimeter".

                  OK, I was convinced that I was a fool in this matter :)))))))
                  However, this does not make Semyonov a fool, because, I repeat, it is not known what the Russians knew about the weapons of Nissin and Kassuga. In addition, there might have been an opinion "from the opposite" - they knew for sure that there was no such caliber on the Japanese battleships and airborne missile systems, and since such a projectile arrived, it turns out that only Kasuga and Nissin remain. Finally, a banal typo is possible, and it is not a fact that Semenova - and the typesetter could have made it.
                  Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
                  The NP had an order of magnitude more time, an order of magnitude more sources, the consultants had the color of Soviet naval historical science.

                  Yes, he wasn’t there :)))) I’m going to tell Novikov that Slava didn’t shoot at Sveaborg anyone who had worked with documents at least a little. And about the fact that Rozhestvensky for the entire campaign did not approve a single death sentence? Nobody did the analysis of the combat effectiveness of the Russian ships, although later it turned out that 2TOE fired much better than 1TOE, etc.
                  Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
                  Only Tolstoy did not write about Napoleonic opupea, but about Natasha Rostov.

                  Well, Novikov is also more about sailors than about a squadron. He noted poor shooting in Madagascar, and that they were shooting up to 60 cables (for the first time in the Russian fleet) - "forgot", although all this is obvious from the documents he had
      2. +3
        April 28 2019 19: 35
        Quote: Ivanchester
        Or a dramatic description of how officers knelt in the wheelhouse of the battleship Suvorov, fearing Japanese shells?

        By the way, an exceptionally realistic description. Have you seen a photo of this cabin? Especially on the side .. It is transparent! The parapet is approximately to the level of the shoulders and above, on three or four posts the mushroom-shaped roof. Probably from the rain. Hands to pull to the one who did it! In general, the conning tower does not look like a reliable shelter at all. The only way to survive a close break is to bend down in time.
        1. +1
          April 28 2019 20: 06
          The question is not how the cabin is arranged, but where did Novikov know that the officers of “Suvorov” were kneeling? ZPR himself told him or someone from the escaped ranks of his staff? I don’t think so - probably all the same, Aleksei Silich has personally thought up this episode.

          PS Based on your assumptions, the destroyer officers in combat should, on their open bridges in general, be exclusively in the “resting prone”. But we will not find such descriptions at Novikov-Priboy. Maybe it was not so scary at the EBR?
          1. +3
            April 28 2019 20: 31
            Quote: Ivanchester
            Maybe it wasn’t so scary at the EDB?

            It was very scary at the EDB .. You are in vain mocking at Novikov’s book. Just this detail proves that the person communicated with real witnesses of this battle.
            1. 0
              April 29 2019 09: 19
              On dbc it was very scary ..

              This is of course true. I meant that his officers were not so scared that "the horror made them hide behind a vertical wall of armor, pressed them to the deck ..."

              You are in vain here mock at the book Novikov.

              I do not scoff at her in any way - I have a very warm attitude towards Tsushima, since it became for me the first book I read about the history of this battle.
          2. +3
            April 29 2019 04: 15
            Quote: Ivanchester
            ZPR himself told him or someone from the surviving ranks of his headquarters? I don’t think so - probably still, Aleksey Silych personally came up with this episode.


            In the archives of Alexei Silych there are letters from a certain Solntsev, a signalman from "Suvorov" who escaped on "Buynom". According to his post, the signalman must be in the conning tower or on the bridge and report everything he saw directly to the admiral.

            Vestovaya Puchkov also escaped and could also visit the bridge. You never know, bring cigarettes from the cabin.
        2. +3
          April 28 2019 23: 00
          The fact that he eventually managed to escape from the execution is not plus Semenov.

          This is not his merit. This is a flaw in the investigation.

          Hands to pull to the one who did it!

          The inventor of this design in this and died, as I recall.
    2. +3
      April 27 2019 10: 52
      Quote: faterdom
      And what grounds are there not to believe Novikov-Priboy, one of the lower-middle ranks who served in the same squadron, and the admiral personally saw

      The reasons are very simple - we know for sure that Novikov lied in many ways. This is the question of the guilty sailors "now they will probably be shot", and after all, the ZPR for the entire time of the campaign did not approve a single death sentence, this is also the question of wet pyroxylin (a statement that Novikov invented himself and for greater credibility attributed it to Krylov, all this I analyzed in the cycle "Myths of Tsushima") and much more.
      a number of events Novikov could not see (officers on their knees in the conning tower of Suvorov) and no one would have told him about it. He walked around Semyonov heartily, "forgetting" to mention that he was on an excellent account with S.O. Makarov, etc.
      Quote: faterdom
      Why was there not a single eyewitness writer in the squadrons of Ushakov or even Essen, who would decide to make a "caricature-popular" image of them?

      Because they did not tolerate the Tsushima defeat
      1. +1
        April 28 2019 19: 38
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        we know for sure that Novikov lied very much.

        We know for sure that you lied in many of your articles, even when you were directly poked with your nose at your own sources, you often insist on your own, fantastic version of events .. However, this is not a reason to shoot you today laughing
        1. +3
          April 29 2019 18: 36
          Quote: Saxahorse
          We know for sure that you lied in many of your articles, even when you were directly sticking your nose at your sources.

          So I patiently opened them and showed that Saxorhorse could not read, let alone work with them :)
          So now, after I EVERY time put you in a puddle, you only have to run and shout "He's a liar, he is a liar, be-be-be!" laughing
          However, I understand. Spring....
      2. +2
        April 29 2019 18: 31
        a series of events Novikov could not see

        he actually interviewed survivors from different ships and took notes, his first published story was about Borodino, which he had never been on, hadn't he?

        he was in excellent standing

        except Semenov’s words, are there proofs for that?

        I analyzed in the cycle "Myths of Tsushima"

        ready for a constructive discussion of this cycle, if anything, then I'll start by challenging the axiom that from 14-10 to 14-25 only head battleships and an incomplete side were firing at Mikasa) but it would be better, of course, to wait for the relevant article
        Threat. write interestingly, it’s better when there is something to argue about than to read Wiki’s retelling and close
        Creative success!
  11. +3
    April 27 2019 04: 29
    Dear Andrew,
    Your assumption that the fires were intentionally left on the hospital ships of the 2 Pacific Squadron (a manifestation of military cunning) seems logical and justified +!
    A few words on the topic.
    According to the logbook, Shinano Maru spotted the Eagle at 02:45. After some time, during which the Japanese watched the latter, "white, red, white" lights appeared on the hospital ship (an interesting fact, it turns out, the lights did not burn constantly?). Since the moon was on the east side, Shinano Maru changed course in order to improve observation conditions.
    At 04:30, entering from the other side, the Japanese approached the Eagle, they did not see the weapons on the latter, which gave them grounds to assume that they were facing a hospital ship.
    At 04:45, the Shinano Maru found itself between the Eagle and the warships of the 2nd Squadron. When the Japanese realized this, the auxiliary cruiser turned around and began to retire at full speed, while simultaneously sending a series of identical messages with the following text: "Battle ship in square 203".

    According to Japanese historiography, the Shinano-Maru was able to go abreast of an unknown vessel only on 4.10, that is, only 1 an hour 45 minutes after its detection. It looks strange because the Russian squadron on the night of May 14 was on 8 nodes, and the Japanese auxiliary cruiser was a newly built (1900 g) commercial vessel with a maximum speed of 15,4 node.


    As you know, the Japanese heavily overloaded their ships with coal, and "Shinano Maru", which had been on duty for a relatively short time, most likely was no exception. His normal coal reserve was 536 tons, but the maximum (grand total) - 1 tons. If we assume that there was a serious supernumerary supply of coal, it becomes clear why they approached the Eagle so relatively slowly.

    Lateral projection "Shinano Maru".

    Gun installations on the ship.
    1. +1
      April 27 2019 10: 46
      Greetings, dear colleague!
      Quote: Comrade
      As you know, the Japanese heavily overloaded their ships with coal, and the "Shinano Maru", which had been on duty for a relatively short time, most likely was no exception. Its normal stock of coal was 536 tons, but the maximum (grand total) was 1 tons.

      I absolutely agree, I did not have such data. But still, dear colleague, it is unlikely that a full supply of coal could cause a drop in speed over 2-3 nodes, and even on 12 nodes to get close to the ship going to 8 knots is not difficult. I do not insist on my point of view as the only correct one, but questions remain hi
      1. PPD
        +2
        April 27 2019 22: 00
        Well, that is, overload in our battleships could slow down, maybe not.
        and further-
        Home[/ i] -Why did the hospital ships give out the location of the Russian squadron with lights?
        The end-[I]
        we can only state that the circumstances of the discovery of the Russian squadron on the night of May 13-14 still remain unclear and require additional research.
        The moral is probably to build an article better a little differently.
        But .. your will. drinks
      2. +1
        April 28 2019 02: 21
        Dear Andrey!
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But still, dear colleague, it is unlikely that a full supply of coal could cause a drop in speed above 2-3 nodes

        Why not ?
        Displacement "Retvizan" - 12 tons, took about 000 tons of water through an underwater hole. The battleship commander wrote that this reduced the ship's speed by one knot.
        Displacement "Shinano Maru" is about half that, but there could be about 1 tons of coal in excess of the norm.
        But there, after conversion into an auxiliary cruiser, weapons were installed, ammunition for it, and, of course, fortifications under the guns.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        even on 12 nodes it’s not difficult to get close to the ship going to 8 nodes

        Dear colleague, 15,4 knots is the speed of the steamer during acceptance tests, with a displacement unknown to us. But the "Pearl" showed over 23 knots in tests, and in a real combat situation only 20 was able to squeeze out.
        Therefore, I believe that most likely 12 knots for the "Shinano Maru" was a real top speed, which could be negatively affected by the full supply of coal and installed weapons.

        With what speed the Japanese were catching up with the "Eagle", perhaps, you can find out in the report of the ship commander. There are five pages, the information we need is on the first.
      3. +1
        April 29 2019 03: 47
        Dear Andrey! You can remember the wok battle! The Japanese, having an advantage in speed of more than 4 hours, could not catch the cruiser. I don’t remember exactly, but it seems like Gromoboy’s something happened with the steering cars, which is why the Japanese managed to get close to the shooting distance. In another case, the wok would have reached the dark and broke away from the cruisers of Kamimura. So the superiority of 2-4 knots does not play a decisive role. We discussed with you back in 16
  12. +3
    April 27 2019 07: 03
    It follows from the article that the commander is an alarmist. He intimidated himself and the entire squadron with an allegedly inevitable mine attack. First, before the Gull incident. Then the entire campaign from Madagascar, the crews of the ships almost did not sleep at night in full readiness to repel a mine attack. You can imagine what stupidity people have brought. Well, the apotheosis is to order the floating hospitals to turn on the lights, let the destroyers melt us all, so at least these living ones will remain.
    1. +1
      April 27 2019 10: 44
      Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
      Intimidated himself and the entire squadron with a supposedly inevitable mine attack. First, before the Gull incident. Then the whole trip from Madagascar crews of ships almost did not sleep at night in full readiness to repel a mine attack.

      I won’t even ask where this information comes from :))))
    2. +1
      April 29 2019 03: 53
      With all the shortcomings, ZPR was not an alarmist. As opponents point out here, he was really competent as an officer, but unfortunately he was flouted with great conceit. I can’t call a breakout plan or any discussion of the upcoming battle with the younger flagship and my own headquarters anymore
      1. +2
        3 May 2019 14: 59
        I can’t call a breakout plan or any discussion of the upcoming battle with the younger flagship and my own headquarters anymore


        (1) Rozhdestvensky did not have someone to discuss something with: why are you not surprised that Rozhdestvensky had no admirals? There was a crowd of admirals in the Republic of Ingushetia - but how to go into battle .... The same Nebogatov was scraped out (half-tricked) from the port - the "naval commander" of the port.
        (2) Rozhestvensky had a plan - to break through to Vladik. But a breakthrough is a type of battle when the initiative is deliberately given to the enemy. So what kind of "planning" do you expect?
        (3) Rozhestvensky planned to pass the strait at night - but .... he was slightly hobbled (by chance, uh-huh ... there are a lot of "accidents" in that story)
        (4) Rozhdestvensky hoped for guns - that he would be able to break through with artillery. And that was quite a reasonable expectation. Who knew that the shells would not explode?
        (5) Rozhdestvensky hoped, among other things, on the guns of Nebogatov. And in order not to leave Nebogatov, he even cut the course to 9 knots. But Nebogatov ... still lagged behind (of course, it happened by chance) and actually did not participate in the battle.

        And then "Rozhdestvensky is to blame for everything"
        1. +1
          4 May 2019 01: 25
          With what fright does a breakthrough give initiative to the enemy? On the contrary, the time and place of the breakthrough was chosen precisely by 2TOE, but YaIF was forced to guess where the ZPR would go. A night breakthrough if the Japanese discovered 2TOE would lead to a catastrophe with the banal superiority of the Japanese in destroyers. ZPR had a whole bunch of ship commanders who, in fact, are unit commanders and had to be discussed with them.
          1. +2
            4 May 2019 09: 49
            With what fright does a breakthrough give initiative to the enemy?

            Yes, from this. And no "fright" - if your goal is to break through, then it is the enemy who chooses the tactics.

            On the contrary, the time and place of the breakthrough was chosen precisely by 2TOE, but YaIF was forced to guess where the ZPR would go.

            Well, enough retelling of the ravings of a battalion. The Japanese had the opportunity to act on domestic short lines, and would have met Rozhestvensky on any of the routes.
            Not to mention the fact that east of Japan there was rather lively commercial traffic, so it would be impossible to hide.
            Rozhdestvensky did everything right

            A night breakthrough if the Japanese discovered 2TOE would lead to a catastrophe with the banal superiority of the Japanese in destroyers.

            Would not bring:
            (1) destroyer attacks not on scattered ships, but on a warrant - the task is quite suicidal.
            (2) Still need to find that order

            ZPR had a whole bunch of ship commanders who, in fact, are unit commanders and had to be discussed with them.

            What exactly should he discuss with them?
            On the contrary, he faced officer gold-sabotage sabotage, and kept his plans secret. And he did the right thing, given the behavior of some.
            What was he supposed to discuss? Vifget, to the offer "to discuss a little" answered "as I will lead - so we will go." And rightly so --- what to condemn if you need to break through? Well, Rozhestvensky gave the order "to follow the course to Vladik" --- and he did everything right. There is nothing to "discuss" here.

            Discussion - this is when they try to dump the responsibility from themselves in advance: they say "I am not to blame, it was decided so collectively." How many discussions were there in Port Arthur --- well, and how many were discussed before?
            1. +2
              4 May 2019 16: 48
              You need to learn the basics of tactics. I'm talking about a breakthrough. Of all the 2 TOE, only Nebogatov’s detachment was able to walk at night without fires, in the daytime the attack on the compound is really suicide, but at night it’s quite effective, I'm talking about destroyer attacks. Witgeft set specific tasks before the release of the 1st TOE; truthfully, not many ships completed them. Rozhdestvensky set one task, while he himself did not believe in the fulfillment of it. So what was to discuss and not stupidly lead to the slaughter of the squadron by solving the initiative of the ship commanders and setting them only one task
              1. +1
                4 May 2019 17: 35
                You need to learn the basics of tactics. I'm talking about a breakthrough.

                Absolutely. Yeah. You will tell us (so you can write an article) --- I think many "need to learn the basics of tactics"

                Of all the 2 TOE, only Nebogatov’s detachment was able to walk at night without lights,

                Novikov surf told? Or saw it yourself?

                By the way, do you know who Surf is? And this ... Treasure, this is his pseudonym. Even this is Comrade Novikov stole, not even original here

                in the daytime, an attack on the compound is really suicide, but at night it’s quite effective, I'm talking about destroyer attacks.

                Oh, really? Well, look at the effectiveness of destroyers' attacks on STANDING ships. (Except for the attack on P-A, where they simply "did not expect"): with the slightest level of readiness, the attack is impossible. These are real ones - let alone an order.
                With those torpedoes, it was necessary to go to cab 5 (without guarantees to get in), which is actually suicidal

                Witgeft set specific tasks before the release of the 1st TOE; truthfully, not many ships completed them.

                Exactly. Put: "Go to Vladik" and "As I lead, so you will go" (and rightly so, by the way)

                Rozhdestvensky set one task, while he himself did not believe in the fulfillment of it.

                Where did you get that you didn’t believe? From what Rozhestvensky knew (and he knew the results of the battle in the Yellow Sea), he should have assumed that there would be losses but would break through. That is exactly what he said in court, by the way. And rightly so: all previous experience has said just that.

                How did Rozhdestvensky know that his shells did not explode? And, even worse, Togo is guaranteed it is known. Of course you won’t break through if your shells do not explode, and the enemy knows for sure (and you yourself don’t, you don’t know, and you believe in your weapon - but it turned out to be cardboard)

                You may not understand, so I will explain: Togo’s actions were crazy and suicidal, and they have only one explanation and justification: he was definitely sure that the Russian guns would not cause him much damage. I already said that if everything that fell into the Japanese would explode as it should .... You yourself look at the number of hits in the Japanese, and compare the level of damage that would have been if the shells exploded.

                So what was to discuss and not stupidly lead to the slaughter of the squadron by solving the initiative of the ship commanders and setting them only one task

                Rozhestvensky did NOT deprive anyone and any initiative. What "initiative" can be in
                a team game of this kind? Bravely escape to Manila?

                The order "to follow to Vladik" deprives of only one initiative - to escape to a neutral port. Even then, even the order did not prevent Enquist from "taking the initiative" and fleeing — leaving his comrades behind. (Although someone, and even Enquist, had all the chances to get through. And not only to get through on his own, but also, taking a little risk, to save someone at night from destroyers)
                1. -1
                  4 May 2019 22: 05
                  and they have only one explanation and excuse


                  He needed to GUARANTEEDLY DESTROY all the main ships of the Russian fleet, and such a battle as 28.07.1904/XNUMX/XNUMX did not suit him at all Yes

                  I already said that if everything that fell into the Japanese would explode as it should ....


                  "Mikasa" was larger than "Eagle" and better protected, the distance of penetration by 305-mm shells of the main belt, towers and wheelhouse of Togo did not pass - well, yes, Mikasa would have gotten a lot, what else?

                  "It is not necessary to multiply entities beyond the necessary" (c)
                  1. +1
                    4 May 2019 23: 08
                    but have you already been told that you are not interested in either as an interlocutor, or in any form whatsoever? Well, save traffic, do not shake the air in vain
                    1. -1
                      4 May 2019 23: 14
                      do not whimper) write a quinoa - please receive)
  13. +4
    April 27 2019 10: 51
    Quote: Ivanchester
    “Tsushima” is a purely artistic work, with a fair amount of copyright.

    I think it's not fantasy after all. A retelling of their personal impressions and the impressions of other participants. As always, in the colloquial genre there are elements of speculation and distortion, but ... the general characteristics of a commander, commander, leader, even after millennia, reaches us more or less accurately, with a lot of details. For example, the fact that Zinovy ​​personally liked to "kick in the snouts" of the lower ranks who were obliged to stand at attention before him - for me personally, 50-70% characterizes him as a man and a naval commander.
    1. +2
      April 27 2019 14: 19
      For example, that Zinovy ​​liked to personally "give in the snout" to the lower ranks who were obliged to stand at attention in front of him

      (1) The deceased, and the heroes, are best treated with a little respect. This is me about "Zinovy" - did you drink with him?
      (2) WHO and WHERE at least once said that Rozhdestvensky "loved personally"? At least once was Rozhdestvensky referred to as a "dentist"? If Rozhestvensky was accused of anything, it was rudeness towards the GOLDEN RUNNERS --- that is, towards idlers who are accustomed to doing nothing and who are unable and unwilling to do anything. Where and when Rozhestvensky, PERSONALLY or NOT PERSONALLY, beat the lower ranks?

      Enough of lying, huh? Well, you don’t know anything - so sit and be silent, listen to what those who at least know something will tell you
      1. 0
        April 28 2019 19: 53
        Quote: AK64
        Enough of lying, huh? Well, you don’t know anything - so sit and be silent, listen to what those who at least know something will tell you

        Who, how are you lying for three! Let's lie in a lower tone ..
      2. 0
        April 29 2019 05: 24
        Quote: AK64
        Once Rozhdestvensky was mentioned as a "dentist"?


        In "Tsushima" there is.

        "Lebedev went to the front and was pleased that instead of a trial and a threatened death penalty, he got off with only the loss of four front teeth, knocked out by the admiral's fist."
        1. +1
          April 30 2019 08: 04
          Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
          In "Tsushima" there is.

          Tsushima as a source is not considered, due to the simply amazing amount of lies in it
        2. +2
          3 May 2019 15: 02
          In "Tsushima" there is.


          How could Novikov know this episode? And he invented it!

          In the fleet, all dentists knew. Rozhdestvensky NEVER had a reputation as a dentist.
          1. +1
            3 May 2019 19: 09
            Quote: AK64
            How could Novikov know this episode?


            I mean, how could I know? The same thing happened on the Eagle with 900 witnesses. Made it all up from start to finish? Never been the carpenter Lebedev on board the Eagle? But why are you so stupid to substitute? In 1932, more than half of the Eagle's crew was still alive. Some also abroad. Tumanov and Bubnov for example. Is the messenger Puchkov with the pierced ear also invented?
            1. +2
              3 May 2019 19: 47
              Have you ever fought? Four teeth - in one great blow! You believe?
              And the carpenter at the same time, not only knocked down, but did not even knock out?
              Yes, such a fighter like this Rozhetvensky (and this carpenter too) could be put in the ring: at the first such a blow, and the second such resistance.

              Tell me, WHAT did Novikov "substitute" for? Than? Yes, he did not substitute ANYTHING.
              Novikov received a social order: to ruin the tsar’s fleet as black as possible. The blacker the coat, the more the fee. What is the point of believing him in at least one word? He fulfills the social order --- he wrote about Rozhdestvensky at least one good word - and the book simply would not be accepted for publication. Such a time was what they planted for patriotism, but about the RPE it was necessary and possible to write only nasty things. So they tried.

              Here, just the genre is such that looking for the truth from Novikov is simply ridiculous.

              And in the 60s and 70s, the trends changed, and Pikul was already a Cruiser (literally we will literally expound Yegoriev's "Actions of the VOK" - for which he received the Komsomol award), where the officers are generally good and kind. (But they were sometimes beaten by angry drunken sailors)

              In reality, the rudeness of Rozhestvensky even with respect to officers began only after Madagascar, and more precisely - Kamran and after: Rozhestvensky, who was already in very bad condition at that time (Felkersam simply died of even less stress), faced with actual mass sabotage on the part of the gentlemen of the officers, he was furious. But he was furious at the golden epaulettes
              1. 0
                3 May 2019 23: 41
                Quote: AK64
                In reality, the rudeness of Rozhdestvensky even in relation to officers began only after Madagascar,


                Well, yes, on the Revel raid he fired a revolver at the doctor, "shouting to the sentry" aim for the head. " They had not yet moved away from the wall, but he was already overworked, poor.

                Quote: AK64
                with actual mass sabotage from the officers


                I mean, they really wanted to drown?
                1. +2
                  4 May 2019 09: 25
                  Well, yes, on the Revel raid he fired a revolver at the doctor, "shouting to the sentry" aim for the head. " They had not yet moved away from the wall, but he was already overworked, poor.

                  Stop gossiping to retell: if such a case would have occurred then the illness would have been taken from the ship directly to the psychiatric hospital, in a straitjacket. And not one of the officers would serve with him - for no one would want to go into battle under the command of a madman.

                  Gossip is, you see, gossip and nonsense.

                  You would know what colleagues tell about me - you wonder where that comes from. Up to "if a Russian picked up a knife (the conversation took place in a restaurant, at dinner, and I was cutting a cutlet), then this does not mean that he was going to smear butter". Listen to my colleagues, so I stabbed a bunch of backgammon right at lunch, stabbed it and ate it right there - right raw.

                  I mean, they really wanted to drown?

                  They wanted, of course, to smoke cigars in the leather chairs of the wardrooms and receive a considerable salary. and for the sailors to serve. But society gives officers honor and respect in peacetime precisely because in wartime they have to go and die. And no other way.
                  Do you want to go die? Well, don’t go to the officers, it’s business. And if he went away from salaries, cigars and chairs in the wardroom in peacetime, he didn’t refuse --- it’s not that you have to go and die in wartime: you were paid for it.

                  In general, it’s funny how here a number of comrades are trying by all means to try to betray meanness and cowardice as valor. But meanness remains meanness.
                  1. 0
                    6 May 2019 18: 38
                    Quote: AK64
                    They wanted, of course, to smoke cigars in the leather chairs of the wardroom


                    Why didn't anyone sabotage S.O. Makarov's orders? And he did not swear at captains of the 1st rank and did not howl at first "oh-oh-oh!" then "ooh ooh!" And he didn't let me sit on the sofas. All the time the squadron was taken out to maneuvers. And so, for some reason, they listened to him and even showed zeal (Semenov has it). And if any of the commanders could not serve normally, then Makarov silently dismissed him from his post, not howling "oh-oh-oh!" and "ooh ooh!" Here is the commander of "Sevastopol", I do not remember the name now, replaced with Essen, bypassing ranks and positions, and everything went like clockwork. Let's imagine instead of Makarov there would be Rozhdestvensky. I would rush to the Sevastopol on a boat, stomp my feet for an hour, howl "oooo", "oo-oo-oo", "oo-oo-oo", "oo-oo-oo", cursing and wheezing. Then he turned around, got into his boat and drove off. And then a month later "Sevastopol" would have driven into someone again. And again Rozhestvensky would have yelled, and Semyonov would have cried: ah sabotage, ah, the officers were fools, ah, he would rather drown himself, so as not to suffer.

                    In fact, this is not sabotage of officers, but the nonsense and helplessness of Rozhestvensky, as administrator and organizer.
                    1. +1
                      6 May 2019 20: 03
                      And why didn’t anyone sabotage the orders of S.O. Makarov?

                      And how do you know that you did not sabotage? That would lead the squadron Makarov to a breakthrough --- and it would be the same, officer gold-sabotage. Remember how the order to break into Vladik was sabotaged: gentlemen, the officers were ready to flood the ships and go into captivity - if only not for battle and not for a breakthrough.

                      And he did not swear at captains of the 1st rank and did not howl at first "oh-oh-oh!" then "ooh ooh!"

                      And who told you that Rozhdestvensky howled? Novikov Surf? And he is at and heard this howl?
                      Here is Semenov, who was next to Rozhdestvensky, neither mata nor howl noticed. But the battalion knows better from Oryol, right?
                      Remember the reaction of Admiral described by Semenov to the underload of Alexagdr 3 with coal: he stood and was silent. (But how did you react to this? I don’t already know what he had to do: cry, probably already needed --- because there was nothing left to do except cry.)

                      on sofas did not give. All the time the squadron led to maneuvers.

                      And --- --- minus two EDB (Petropavlovsk and Sevastopol). But the JI public forgives everything --- because its communist agitators decided to raise it to the billboard. But he wouldn’t die - just as much as Rozhdestvensky’s mud would be watered. With a guarantee. And you would now prove to me that he was foul and howled.

                      And for some reason, he listened to him and even showed zeal (Semenov has this).

                      And would lead to a breakthrough in July - and the zeal would end.

                      If you believe Semyonov about Makarov, believe him about Rozhdestvensky too. And if you don’t want to believe about Rozhestvensky, you don’t need to give his testimony about Makarov either. You have to be constant, but not "I remember here - I don't remember here, read here, don't read here"

                      In general, you write nonsense, forgive me for being blunt.
                      It's just that Makarov has been chlorinated by propaganda (mainly because he died on time). And on Rozhdestvensky they hung all the dogs.
                      And here I think. in order to render Rozhdestvensky instead of Makarov in the PA in the spring, the armadillos would remain intact, and the Admiral would be alive, and the breakthrough would be a success. But what Mkarov could have done instead of Rozhdestvensky - here I can’t put my mind to it. I would have sunk a couple of EDBs on a campaign, perhaps.

                      You’d better think about this: in Russia there were about 70 admirals --- but for some reason Rozhdestvensky found himself in a strait of one to two detachments, despite the fact that you would need 2 admirals per detachment (and taking into account the campaign and possible accidents with health - and 3 per squad, perhaps). The Japanese had it: 2 admirals for each detachment of linear forces.

                      That is, Rozhestvensky withdrew almost all the battle-worthy ships of Russia --- but for some reason it was impossible to find admirals on his campaign.

                      That's what you think about - and then judge the Admiral.
                      1. 0
                        7 May 2019 17: 34
                        Quote: AK64
                        Who told you that Rozhdestvensky howled? Novikov Surf?


                        No, this is a mechanical engineer A.N. Mikhailov.

                        Quote: AK64
                        Rozhdestvensky instead of Makarov in the PA in the spring, and the battleships would have remained intact, and the Admiral was alive, and the breakthrough would have been a success


                        In the spring of 1904, the main task of the fleet was not a breakthrough, but to prevent the Japanese from landing on the peninsula. The task was completed by Makarov. The Japanese did not even plan to land, they were afraid. But the Japanese failed all their tasks.

                        Quote: AK64
                        I would have sunk a couple of EDBs on a campaign, perhaps.


                        This is you from a sore head to a healthy one. Rozhestvensky, half a globe to Japan, had the Aurora and Donskoy damaged by friendly fire. They could have sunk, if they had fired right. No one else had such an achievement.
                      2. 0
                        9 May 2019 14: 33
                        No, this is a mechanical engineer A.N. Mikhailov.

                        And who is he so that his opinion becomes at least someone interesting
                        In the spring of 1904, the main task of the fleet was not a breakthrough, but to prevent the Japanese from landing on the peninsula. The task was completed by Makarov. The Japanese did not even plan to land, they were afraid. But the Japanese failed all their tasks.

                        Whom were they "afraid" of? Makarov were "afraid"?
                        It's pretty funny: as soon as it became real, they immediately landed.
                        This is you from a sore head to a healthy one. Rozhestvensky, half a globe to Japan, had the Aurora and Donskoy damaged by friendly fire. They could have sunk, if they had fired right. No one else had such an achievement.

                        Nonsense you please say: Vaughn Jessen managed to damage, and damage VERY seriously, more of his cruisers than enemy cruisers. The Arthurians lost Boyarin and Yenisei out of nowhere. Damage to Aurora and Donskoy on this handicap is an absolute trifle, and it would be easy to write about "drowning" --- it just means that it's not worth talking to you, because you pass off your fantasies as facts. Nothing happened to Aurora and Donskoy, nothing was done.

                        But Sevastopol has ceased to be an EBR for good. This is not even mentioning Petropavlovsk. In my opinion, it quite characterizes the "great organizer", no?
  14. +3
    April 27 2019 15: 56
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    Yes I know. The match is lost with a score of 0: 12. Bulkokhrusty can write anything, but "the result is on the scoreboard" (c)

    Until 1917, it was bad or poor in Rome, but there were successful generals: Brusilov, Denikin, and some others, but scarce in the Navy: Makarov — died, Rozhdestvensky — lost, and if so, he catches all the dogs on him. Who remains: Essen died at the beginning of WWI, Kolchak-?
    Let's be honest: in the Second World War, our Navy also could not particularly boast of successful admirals. There were decent people, but a minimum of successful admirals.
    1. 0
      April 28 2019 09: 32
      Until 1917, it was bad or poor in Rome, but there were successful generals: Brusilov, Denikin, and some others, but scarce in the Navy: Makarov — died, Rozhdestvensky — lost, and if so, he catches all the dogs on him. Who remains: Essen died at the beginning of WWI, Kolchak-?
      Let's be honest: in the Second World War, our Navy also could not particularly boast of successful admirals. There were decent people, but a minimum of successful admirals.

      (1) found "successful" --- Denikin and Brusilov. Both are nothing more than bloated by the press. Ue, if you need "successful" ones, then take NO Ivanov (although he slept through the Gorlitsky breakthrough), Yudenich, Kaledin, Rourko, and Alekseev, finally (although he was a pretty scoundrel).
      (2) Admirals were simply numerically smaller, and the activities of the fleet were much smaller.
      (3) Kolchak and Essen ..... Again, they found "heroes": Both were British agents, there is nowhere to put a stamp.
      1. +2
        April 28 2019 19: 56
        Quote: AK64
        (3) Kolchak and Essen ..... Again, they found "heroes": Both were British agents, there is nowhere to put a stamp.

        Gee gee gee .. I agree for Kolchak, nowhere to put the stigma, but Essen, you probably sprayed the dermis in vain ..
      2. +1
        April 29 2019 09: 56
        1. General Brusilov in 1916 conducted a brilliant offensive by the Southwestern Front entrusted to him, which was then studied by the military of the whole world.
        If it were not for the passivity of the commanders of the Western and North-Western fronts, then Russia that year would most likely have turned the tide of the war in its favor and entered the number of victorious powers.
        Which of the military leaders you listed mentioned at least something close to this?

        2. Blaming a person for being an English agent would be a good idea to bring at least one document confirming your words. Do you have anything specific against N. Essen?
        1. 0
          April 30 2019 16: 17
          Quote: Ivanchester
          General Brusilov in the 1916 year

          ditched the guard on an unnecessary assault on an unnecessary fortress instead of developing an offensive deep into Austria-Hungary.
          1. 0
            April 30 2019 16: 57
            nobody needs a fortress

            If you are talking about Kovel, then justify its uselessness.
            Brusilov's mistake was that he did not allow the army of General Kaledin to seize it "outright". But, in principle, he had his own reason for this, since the Western Front, which was slow in advancing, left the right flank of the 8th Army unprotected from attack.
            1. 0
              1 May 2019 01: 55
              Quote: Ivanchester
              nobody needs a fortress

              If you are talking about Kovel, then justify its uselessness.
              Brusilov's mistake was that he did not allow the army of General Kaledin to seize it "outright". But, in principle, he had his own reason for this, since the Western Front, which was slow in advancing, left the right flank of the 8th Army unprotected from attack.

              A simple screen was enough. And given the features of the terrain, which our troops heroically stormed with dense columns (by the order of Brusilov himself, by the way), they did not allow an inconspicuous full-scale preparation for the attack. In the end, the Germans did just that, surrounding our newest fortresses they left a landver against them, while the bulk of the troops continued the offensive.
        2. 0
          3 May 2019 15: 07
          In 1916, General Brusilov carried out a brilliant offensive by the forces of the Southwestern Front entrusted to him, which was then studied by the military of the whole world.

          You just don’t know ...

          Kaledin managed to break through the front on his site. (In other kandandarma, well, except for Lechitsky, it somehow did not work out). However, Kaledin did not receive support from Brusilov, but he received a heap of conflicting directives. And stuck.
          In general, the breakthrough was Lutskiy, the Nikolaev offensive - but the "democratically-minded newspapermen" did everything to attribute everything to Brusilov. (Not out of love for Brusilov, but out of hatred for Nikolai)
  15. +4
    April 27 2019 18: 59
    "And in any case, one can only state that the circumstances of the discovery of the Russian squadron on the night of May 13-14, and to this day remain unclear and require additional research ..."
    Very accurate phrase.
    The ships were not repainted in ball, since the passage was supposed to be at night.
    The Apraksin accident, or "pseudo-accident" forced the passage of the strait to be postponed to daylight.
    An unauthorized radio game with the Japanese, which was started by the same Apraksin, also played its role in the detection of the squadron. And in the battle itself, Nebogatov's detachment managed to lag behind so much that in fact it did not take an active part in it. And this despite the fact that the speed of the squadron was nine knots.
    Of course, all this is an accident.
    Especially when you consider that Nebogatov's detachment had not "defective", but normal shells, since it came out later. In the monograph devoted to individual ships of the second squadron, there is a mention of the fact that part of the shells for the squadron came from Germany. The fact that part of the ammunition load could be ordered in Germany can be explained by the fact that only in Russia and Germany were the shells equipped with pyroxylin. But what was the quality of the German shells?
    The fact that Rozhestvensky did not expect the pogrom is also explainable.
    In battles with the first squadron, the Japanese did not use shells equipped with melinite.
    After the Russo-Japanese War, both the French and Germans focused on improving the armor-piercing projectile. The British, in general, equipped large-caliber shells with black powder.
    Both in Great Britain and in France, they even shot one decommissioned ship each in order to assess the advantages and disadvantages of high-explosive and armored shells. In France it was the battleship Jenna.
    The second squadron included four battleships with 12 "guns and Krupp armor, one battleship with modern 12" artillery and an incomplete belt, one battleship with 10 "guns and an incomplete Harvey belt, one outdated battleship with four 12" guns of an outdated design and an incomplete belt, one outdated battleship with two 12 "guns of even more outdated design and four 229 mm guns, one outdated armored cruiser with an incomplete belt and eight 8" guns, and three coastal defense battleships with incomplete belts but armed with 10 "guns.
    And the Japanese had one modern battleship with Krupp armor, two battleships with Harvey armor (if it became a habit to find fault with Harvey on domestic ships, then why is Harvey better on Japanese ships?), One outdated battleship with an incomplete belt, slow-firing main caliber and poorly protected medium, and eight armored cruisers, of which six carried Krupp armor and two were of very poor quality. The armament of these cruisers (8 ") did not allow them to stand on equal terms with the battleships, especially since the main caliber shells of six of them were not designed for heavy shells.
    The speed of the Japanese squadron could not be more than 15 knots, it was slowed down by both "Fuji" and "Azuma" (the cruisers were not any speedboat, their real speeds did not exceed the speed of modern battleships).
    The author of the article likes to refer to the teachings of the English fleet, which allegedly proved that speeding up by two knots leads to the inevitable defeat of a more slow-moving enemy.
    But, the French also conducted similar exercises. And they came up with slightly different conclusions: speeding of at least nine knots is necessary.
    1. -3
      April 27 2019 19: 45
      Exactly.
      I already wrote about an obvious betrayal ...
      If the Russian shells exploded --- then Togo, with his maneuvers, would lose half of the squadron in the first hour! But the Russian shells did not explode - in general, 100% did not explode.
      If 10% of non-appeals is a marriage. If 25% is a criminal scandal and cause for trial. And when is 100% what is it ???

      Worse: "Zinovy" (as the young ruffians call Rozhdestvensky here) DIDN'T KNOW and COULD NOT KNOW that his artillery was useless (100% of non-explosions!) But Togo knew this, and knew for sure --- and all Togo's maneuvers were extremely brazen, ridiculous and deadly maneuvering --- has only one explanation: Togo was guaranteed to know that Russian shells would not explode. That's why the borzel is so impudent.

      100% non-explosions is a guaranteed defeat, with any Russian actions. But the Russians learned about 100% non-explosions only in 1906, when Slava shot Sveaborg (and 100% non-explosive !!!)

      If Russian shells exploded, then Rozhdestvensky would go to Vladik. Moreover --- Mikasa would have been drowned even in the Yellow Sea, if what had got into it would exploded as it should.

      And stop slandering the Russians, stop it: no among the Russians and there were no fools or fools.

      PS: both yes and about Nebogatov sharply agree: how to go into battle, so he is behind. And at night he left, holding (according to the same Kostenko) as many as 13 knots. This gentleman completely deserved a noose
      1. +1
        April 28 2019 04: 14
        Yes, yes ZPR did not know about the shell ... And who was Since 1898 the commander of the Training and Artillery Detachment of the Baltic Fleet? Probably some other Christmas? Subsequently, he held the post of chief of the general secondary school and he simply had to know about problems with the shells.
        1. +1
          April 28 2019 09: 18
          Yes, yes ZPR did not know about the shell ... And who was Since 1898 the commander of the Training and Artillery Detachment of the Baltic Fleet? Probably some other Christmas? Subsequently, he held the post of chief of the general secondary school and he simply had to know about problems with the shells.


          He did not know and could not know:
          (1) old shells exploded. Look, for example, what a colleague writes unknown :
          Especially when you consider that Nebogatov's detachment had not "defective", but normal shells, since it came out later.
          Exactly so: 3rd TOE achieved just a few hits, which nevertheless inflicted impressive damage on the Japanese. It is these hits that are mentioned when they try to prove that Russian shells exploded. For example, getting into Nissin, 152 mm and 10 inches (in fact, 9 or 10 inches) --- both gifts flew from the ships of the 3rd TOE. Everything exploded, and these hits lead as evidence of the effectiveness of the Russian shells.
          But here are the NEW 2nd TOE shells (there were also old cast-iron shells with smoke powder - these also exploded) .... These new ones regularly pierced Japanese armor --- but almost did not explode. The bombardment by Slava Sveaborg is absolutely impressive in this sense.
          (2) Before the war, sailors repeatedly raised the question of the need for regular testing of shells. The price of the issue is several tens of thousands of rubles (about 70K, or something --- a trifling matter). They received a refusal. So no one knew about the fact that 100% would not explode (except for those who organized it).
          Who was min finance --- need to be reminded?
          1. +3
            April 28 2019 10: 42
            Quote: AK64
            He did not know and could not know:


            I knew very well. There are reports of the State Comptroller provided to the king and the government. The reports for 1903-1904 indicate the low quality of armor-piercing and, most interesting, half-armor-piercing shells for the fleet. For the absence of high-explosive shells with an increased explosive content, we should be grateful to S.O. Makarov, about which he writes in his report on his activities in 1891-1894, when he served as chief inspector of naval artillery.
            1. +1
              April 28 2019 11: 05
              I knew very well.

              I didn’t know very well - because contrary to the constant requirements of the naval, control tests of shells were NOT made. They categorically refused to allocate money for this (70K rubles, or something, the most complete nonsense on a scale of at least the fleet of the Empire).
              (The Minister of Finance - SJU, an icon of modern liberals. In general, if you look at the RJV, then this war itself, as well as the creation of Russia in it, was organized by one person .... Thereby.)
              1. +4
                April 28 2019 11: 40
                [quote = AK64]Perfectly did not know . [/ Quote]
                From the report;
                " The production at the plant (Perm Cannon Plant) of 6-12 inch shells does not at all meet the high requirements that are now imposed on these shells by land and naval artillery.
                Orders for these shells given to the plant were not executed, and it came to the point that the question was already raised of terminating orders for the Perm factory of armor-piercing shells.
                "1904

                The Perm Cannon Plant was the main supplier of large-caliber steel shells for the navy and army.

                The resolution of the king-father on this report;

                " Sad but true"

                [quote = AK64] [quote]because contrary to the constant requirements of the naval, control tests of shells were NOT made. [/ Quote]

                I’ll apologize, but this is stupid. Not one batch of shells for the fleet or army was not accepted without selective testing of shells. Documents about this are summarized in separate reports and published since 1891.
                1. +1
                  April 28 2019 12: 32
                  From the report;
                  “The production at the plant (Perm Cannon Plant) of 6-12 inch shells does not at all meet the increased requirements that land and naval artillery now imposes on these shells.
                  Orders for these shells given to the plant were not fulfilled, and it came to the point that the question of terminating orders to the Perm plant of armor-piercing shells has already been raised. "1904


                  (1) What is the date on the report? 1904 - this is a war, this is a squadron preparing to leave. What month in 1904? This is a HUGE difference.
                  (2) What is “inadequate”? To what extent? "Do not meet the requirements" - these are WORDS and nothing more. Here I have such a report - so what? I get the impression that "they will hit worse" and "they will hit worse." And I will decide, "Well, what to do? Well, the effectiveness of the fire will decrease!"

                  And in real life it will not "decrease" - it will simply become nothing if the shells do not explode.

                  I already wrote - there is a marriage. Now, if 10% of non-explosions is a marriage. This is bad --- but not yet fatal. 25% is also a marriage. This is very bad, and a reason to start an investigation.
                  But Sveaborg showed 100% non-explosions, 100%. Sorry, but 100% - this is not about marriage.

                  And this despite the fact that Russian shells (which "do not respond") regularly pierced the Japanese armor, right down to the main belts --- everything exactly according to the passport and performance characteristics. But they didn’t explode.

                  I already wrote that maneuvering Togo is crazy. All the actions of Togo in the Tsushima battle are the actions of a madman. And I have only one explanations for this craziness - Togo 100% knew that Russian shells would not explode. Because he climbed under the Russian guns, because he knew that Russian shooting was almost safe.


                  I’ll apologize, but this is stupid. Not a single batch of shells for the fleet or army was not accepted without selective testing of shells. Documents about this are summarized in separate reports and published since 1891.


                  I have good reason to believe that just before the REV full tests were not conducted. That is why the results of the fame of Sveaborg and became such a shock.
                  While those who returned from captivity talked about the absence of traces of explosions on Japanese ships, everything could be attributed to "25% marriage - what do you want." But shooting at Sveaborg showed 100% non-explosions.

                  And this despite the fact (if we talk about the quality of shells), that Russian shells penetrated even the main armored belts of the Japanese. The famous photo of Mikas’s broken frontal armor is very revealing --- it didn’t penetrate, but it didn’t break.
                  1. +2
                    April 28 2019 13: 09
                    Quote: AK64
                    That is why the results of the fame of Sveaborg and became such a shock.




                    This is so for general development.
                    1. +4
                      April 28 2019 15: 15
                      That's right. But there is a nuance. Valentin Maltsev (aka Comrade) once laid out the data on the remains of Tsesarevich’s ammunition. It is absolutely clear that upon arrival in the Baltic, the ammunition was replenished and what kind of shells fired on Sveaborg now can not be established.
                  2. +1
                    April 28 2019 23: 05
                    Quote: AK64
                    But the shooting at Sveaborg showed 100% of explosions.


                    If it's not a secret, where did you get such "strange" data?
                2. +2
                  April 28 2019 16: 10
                  By the way, yes. Having refused full-fledged shell tests at the Okhtinsky firing range, we periodically tested out of current batches of manufactured shells. That is, whatever one may say, the shells were tested and the quality was quite fine. In general, judging by all the documents, there are only continuous contradictions. Put the shells of the 1st TOE did not cause any complaints. The battle at Ulsan clearly showed that the shells regularly exploded, which the Japanese themselves told. But here Jessen's report on the firing at the boiler iron carried out by him showed negative results that the shells are flashing through without a blast. Boiler iron on armored steel doesn’t pull the fuse and could not work
                  1. +2
                    April 28 2019 16: 56
                    Quote: Nehist
                    In general, judging by all the documents, there are only continuous contradictions.


                    One example of how military reception was carried out, not a large scan;



                    There are many such examples, so we often encounter contradictions in the documents.
              2. +2
                April 28 2019 11: 41
                “The production at the plant (Perm Cannon Plant) of 6-12 inch shells does not at all meet the increased requirements that land and naval artillery now imposes on these shells.
                Orders for these shells given to the plant were not fulfilled, and it came to the point that the question of stopping orders to the Perm plant of armor-piercing shells has already been raised. "1904 And the resolution on the report of EIV Nicholas II" Sad but true "That is, even the emperor knew about shells
                1. +3
                  April 28 2019 12: 03
                  Quote: Nehist
                  That is, even the emperor knew about shells


                  Yes, he knew. In addition, in 1903 there was an order to withdraw these shells from the RI fleets with their subsequent export to warehouses. Well, and the fact that when recruiting the Second Pacific Squadron "everyone scooped out of warehouses"It is clear where some of these shells ended up. ZP Rozhestvensky could not have been unaware of this.
                2. +3
                  April 28 2019 12: 38
                  That is, even the emperor knew about shells


                  He did not know anything.
                  You have the epaulettes in the photo - but you are conducting speeches by the humanist, not an officer or engineer.
                  A normal report should look like this: "33 (or 25, or 48) shots were fired with 12 "caliber shells against the GOST armor plate with a reduced charge (corresponding to a distance of 25 cables. Out of 25 shells, the armor was fully penetrated 18. Partially pierced 3. Hits of 4 more shells led to chipped armor.
                  Explosions were observed and .... cases ....
                  "
                  And so on and so forth.

                  And what is written there is LITTLE BLOCK for the political instructor.

                  That is why the result of the firing of Glory in Sveaborg became for the naval shock. And after this shooting, any claims to Rozhestvensky became simply inappropriate:
                  1. +5
                    April 28 2019 13: 19
                    Quote: AK64
                    That is precisely why the result of the firing of Glory in Sveaborg became a shock for the naval.

                    I beg your pardon, but the shooting of "Glory" at Sveaborg is a myth created by EMNIP by the same Novikov-Priboi. On the day of the shelling of Sveaborg, the battleship was in another place as not reliable enough and, it seems, was undergoing bunkering. In the "Myths of Tsushima" respected Andrei, this was examined in detail either in one of the articles of the cycle, or in the comments.

                    According to the known quality of shells - IMHO, one should not confuse the testing of batches of shells and the quality of their manufacture with the power of their explosions. If I remember correctly, the batches were tested with unloaded shells (without explosives and fuses), and the claims to quality were primarily claims to their insufficient strength to penetrate armor. Even if the shells were fired with explosives and fuses, no one conducted any tests of the effectiveness of the armor-plating effect (ie, for rupture), since this required not just shooting at the armor plate, but creating a full-fledged model of the ship, or shooting some kind of " old man "to estimate the power of the explosion and the actual impact of the projectile on the enemy ship, in addition to making holes in it that were not provided for by the design. These are really different things - testing the quality of the projectile and testing its effect on the structures of a real ship, you should not mix them, and it is doubtful that before Tsushima anyone knew for sure about the insufficient power of Russian projectiles.
                    1. +1
                      April 28 2019 13: 52
                      I beg your pardon, but the shooting of "Glory" at Sveaborg is a myth created by EMNIP by the same Novikov-Priboi. On the day of the shelling of Sveaborg, the battleship was in another place as not reliable enough and, it seems, was undergoing bunkering.

                      Sorry, but I do not believe: the shooting of Glory at Sveaborg is mentioned in too many places and in completely different contexts.

                      tests of batches were carried out by unloaded shells (without explosives and fuses)

                      Exactly.

                      Nobody conducted any tests of the effectiveness of the armor-plated impact (ie, for rupture), since this required not just shooting at the armor plate, but creating a full-fledged model of the ship, or shooting some "old man" in order to assess the power of the explosion and the actual impact projectile on an enemy ship in addition to making holes in it that are not provided for by the design. These are really different things - testing the quality of the projectile and testing its effect on the structures of a real ship, you should not mix them, and it is doubtful that before Tsushima anyone knew for sure about the insufficient power of Russian projectiles.


                      This is a completely wrong idea. It is, of course, good to shoot an old boat (and such targets can always be found - from time to time they do it in all fleets). But in reality this is not at all necessary: ​​there exist, and have existed since that time, hundreds of methods for testing the power of the projectile, including the simplest ones, which do not even require firing, literally At the level of "buried in the ground and made an explosion." In this matter, you can completely trust me: this is what I was taught. (There are also much more advanced techniques - and again without shooting)

                      Here, the detonation of the fuse requires a shot, yes. But here they do not spare money for testing. (Yes, and shooting 12 "is not at all necessary - the same tube can be put in 76mm for testing.)
                      And, by the way, the old-fashioned fuses worked quite normally. Complaints began about NEW fuses of the same design. Moreover, one of the explanations (which I could not personally verify) was that "the aluminum on one of the parts became of better quality and as a result the ears were not cut off." To me this sounds like a little delirium. (I repeat - "I was taught this") If control shots were made, then this "interesting" feature would be noticed Instantly. But for some reason it surfaced only after the war (which in itself seems to hint that there were no shootings, or they were falsified).
                      1. +2
                        April 28 2019 19: 22
                        Quote: AK64
                        Sorry, but I do not believe: the shooting of Glory at Sveaborg is mentioned in too many places and in completely different contexts.

                        And taken in one - from Novikov-Priboy. In fact, "Slava" was indeed included in the detachment intended for shelling Sveaborg, but she did not take part in the shelling itself, for more details see Vinogradov "Battleship Slava. The Invincible Hero of Moonsund"
                        But the fact is that this does not improve the quality of Russian shells. What difference does it make from which particular ship they fired from, from "Slava", or from "Tsarevich"?
                    2. +2
                      April 28 2019 15: 21
                      it is doubtful that before Tsushima someone knew for sure about the insufficient power of Russian shells.


                      And here I consider it necessary to seriously disagree and even explain: here two different concepts are mixed. There are regular passport characteristics of the product (shell), in accordance with GOST and TTX. But there is what we have in reality.
                      So the regular power of Russian shells was, although not ice, but for that time it was quite adequate. And the already mentioned hits in Nissin, where the shells worked normally, this is completely confirmed.
                      The problem was not a lack of power, but a failure: if all that got into the Japanese would work just like the two mentioned from the 3rd squadron .....
                    3. -1
                      April 28 2019 20: 02
                      Quote: arturpraetor
                      In the "Myths of Tsushima" respected Andrei, this was examined in detail either in one of the articles of the cycle, or in the comments.

                      References to "Andrey" as a reliable source are, to put it mildly, overly optimistic. In short, our friend Andrey is lying three times out of two. laughing
            2. +3
              April 28 2019 13: 43
              Well, he not only wrote it. He finally admitted his mistake
              In the all-subject report to the highest name in 1894, Makarov wrote: - "... the equipment of the shells lagged far behind everything else, just as the methods of using artillery and controlling artillery fire lagged behind."

              Necessary improvements proposed by the Chairman of the Marine Technical Committee (the highest technical body of the General Staff of the Fleet), Vice Admiral F.V. Dubasov, stopped by the resolutions of the managers of the Maritime Ministry, Vice Admirals P.P. Tyrtov and, later, F.K. Avelan.
              PS So everyone knew about the situation with shells
        2. +3
          April 28 2019 10: 39
          Quote: Nehist
          And who was the commander of the Training and Artillery Detachment of the Baltic Fleet from 1898?

          Sorry, but how is one related to the other? As far as I understand, training firing at that time was not carried out with live ammunition.
          1. +3
            April 28 2019 10: 59
            As far as I understand, training firing at that time was not carried out with live ammunition.

            Absolutely.
            But the comrades really want to hang all the dogs on Rozhdestvensky --- simplifies the picture of the world.
          2. +2
            April 28 2019 13: 01
            Since 1898, the coastal defense battleship "Admiral Ushakov" was annually included for three weeks in the Training and Artillery Detachment of the Baltic Fleet to improve the training of artillerymen. Intense practice firing led to the fact that by the end of the 1904 campaign, during which only out of 10 '' guns of the battleship, 140 shells were fired, the total number of shots fired by the ship from main battery guns reached 472 (total training and combat), which seriously affected on the wear of the gun barrels. The 120-mm rapid-fire cannons were in an even worse position, each of which had about 400 SHOTS. As we can see on the example of "Admiral Ushakov" Shooting was carried out both with practical and military shells
            1. +2
              April 28 2019 13: 32
              As we can see on the example of "Admiral Ushakov" Shooting was carried out both with practical and military shells


              I already told you that the old shells from the 3rd TOE exploded regularly. (And they caused quite impressive damage - two hits in Nissin top example).
              100% of non-explosions --- this is the result of the shooting of the Glory for Sveaborg in 1906: Glory is Borodinets. and the shells there were exactly the same as on the 2 th TOE.
              The result of the firing of Glory for the naval was a shock --- that's how "everyone knew"

              (What BEFORE those who returned from Japanese captivity told before was perceived as an attempt to justify themselves, or as a statistical error --- "well, there is a certain percentage of marriage." But Slava showed 100%. Do you understand the difference?)
            2. +1
              April 28 2019 15: 26
              I agree. But the trick is that 10 "shells are not the best in the RIF. And the weight is quite at the level of world standards and the content of explosives, and the bugs with fuses did not start immediately, so there may be options.
    2. +4
      April 28 2019 03: 54
      Quote: ignoto
      And the Japanese had ... one obsolete battleship with an incomplete belt, non-velocity main caliber

      In a real combat situation, the rated rate of fire is the tenth thing.
      So, "Fuji" on May 14, 1905, fired one hundred and one rounds of the main caliber, and "Shikishima" - seventy-four.
  16. +4
    April 28 2019 04: 25
    Guys, since we are talking about hospital courts during the Russo-Japanese War, I post information on how patients were fed on Japanese hospital courts. It may seem interesting.
    In total, in the Japanese fleet for the sick and wounded, there were four types of diets (table No. 1-4), according to the first of them recovering in a day supposed:

    Bread - 130 grams (or 100 grams of crackers)
    Beef with bone - 120 grams
    Fish with bones - 80 grams
    Fresh vegetables - 200 grams
    Rice - 200 grams
    Wheat Crackers - 70 Grams
    Sugar - 6 (six) grams
    Tea - 1 gram
    Wheat Grains - 2 (two) grams

    Do not spoil it!
    laughing
    1. 0
      April 28 2019 09: 54
      Do not spoil it!


      interesting information

      Well, given that rice is considered, probably, dry, then, probably, the standard diet + beef, crackers and doubled the norm of vegetables

      the Japanese then were not very spoiled, it seems to me, and even smaller than the Europeans
    2. +1
      April 28 2019 10: 28
      And in Russia they pampered:

      A tattered dirty woman emerged from the hut, near which we stopped, and went to a pile of something lying on a pasture and covered with a tattered caftan that was torn everywhere. This is one of her 5 children. A three-year-old girl is sick in extreme heat with a kind of influenza. Not that there is no talk of treatment, but there is no other food than the crusts of bread that the mother brought yesterday, leaving the children and running away with a bag for requisitions ... Almost everyone has bread with a quinoa. Quinoa here is unripe, green. The white nucleolus, which usually occurs in it, is not at all, and therefore it is not edible. One cannot eat bread with a quinoa. If you eat one bread on an empty stomach, it will vomit.

      You are a fresh person, you stumble upon a village with dozens of typhoid patients, you see a sick mother leaning over the cradle of a sick child to feed him, lose consciousness and lie above him, and there is nobody to help, because her husband mutters on the floor in incoherent delirium. And you are horrified. And the "old servant" is used to it. He had already experienced this, he was horrified twenty years ago, had been ill, boiled over, calmed down ... Typhoid? But we always have it! Quinoa? Yes, we have this one every year!

      In a person from the intellectual class, such a doubt is understandable, because it is simply impossible to believe how people live this way without eating. And yet it really is. Not that they have not eaten at all, but malnourished, live from hand to mouth, eat all kinds of rubbish. Wheat, good clean rye, we send abroad, to the Germans, who will not eat any rubbish ... Our peasant farmer does not have enough wheat bread for a child's nipple, the woman will chew the rye crust that she eats, put it in a rag - suck it "

      Children eat worse than the calves of the owner with good livestock. The mortality of children is much higher than the mortality of calves, and if the mortality of calves was as great for the owner with good livestock as the mortality of children for the peasant, then it would be impossible to manage ... If mothers ate better, if ours the wheat that the German eats remained at home, then the children would grow better and there would not be such a mortality, if all these typhus, scarlet fever, diphtheria would not rage. Selling our wheat to a German, we sell our blood, that is, peasant children "
      1. +1
        April 28 2019 17: 00
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        And in Russia they pampered:
        Children eat worse than calves from a host with good livestock.

        A colleague was not impressed.
        Today in Canada (kakbe is a completely prosperous country) there are plenty of cases of hungry fainting among children that happen right during the lessons. So what ?
        1. 0
          April 28 2019 17: 06
          Yes, I actually wanted to say this: in Russia the famine ended only under Brezhnev, in Europe they stopped starving after WWII. For that time, especially for the Japanese, "Beef with bone - 120 grams", IMHO, very cool
  17. +3
    April 28 2019 22: 11
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    maybe a myth, but I quote Novikov:
    “So far, the lower ranks have been closer to me. Even among the career sailors who graduated from various special schools, there was no usual fun. Only penalties, in contrast to the others, were more or less cheerful. The coastal authorities, in order to get rid of them, came up with this way: write them off on ships going to war. Thus, we have accumulated them up to seven percent. "

    According to Novikov, on the battleship "Eagle" (not to be confused with the entire squadron) among the lower ranks about seven percent were fines.
    Sorry, colleague, but I do not see the point between the presence of fines on the ship and the fate of this ship itself.
    Do not consider it trolling or demagoguery, but if there were no penalties on the Eagle at all, would it not have been hit by a part of the barrel of a 12 '' gun in battle? Or would the total number of hits be less?
    But is there a connection between the fate of "Navarin" and "Sisoy the Great" and the possible presence of penalties among the crew members of these battleships?
    One was blown up by mine bundles, the second gradually sank into the water as a result of previously received injuries. Do not you think, colleague, that if you were in the place of the penalty box "Prince Suvorov" excellent combat and political training, the latter would not have allowed Japanese torpedoes to hit the battleship?

    I believe that in this matter there are more emotions than sober calculation. Well, fines, so what? The battleships of Rozhdestvensky shot well, but the Japanese were even better, and their shells had a different system, that was all.
    1. +2
      April 28 2019 23: 10
      I do not consider any reasonable question for trolling. I’ll answer as I think: good teams are an increase in speed and accuracy, very often also survivability. This factor alone would not fundamentally change anything, but Rozhdestvensky was obliged to do everything, and he did much less.
      The question about the Black Sea was directly asked to Rozhdestvensky during the investigation. He did not answer anything reasonable.
      1. 0
        April 29 2019 10: 02
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        The question about the Black Sea was directly asked to Rozhdestvensky during the investigation.

        Can you tell me exactly which specialists, and from which ships, it was possible to transfer from the Black Sea Fleet to the second squadron? What do you mean by "experienced"?
        1. 0
          April 29 2019 11: 50
          I will promptly tell you: from any Black Sea battleship of any specialty. You are now preparing to write about the need to retrain for Belleville boilers and towers, I will answer in advance that it is still more difficult for reservists
          1. +2
            April 29 2019 11: 59
            I already wrote to you that the only thing this will lead to is the loss of combat capability of the Black Sea Fleet. But the second squadron will not get any easier. Just because the transferred sailors do not own the new equipment in the same way as the reservists. But at least they can do something on their ships, which, incidentally, also have their own tasks.
            I wonder how it never occurred to you to accuse the ZPR of not demanding that the gunners be transferred from the coastal batteries of Kronstadt? And what, there and there guns ...
            1. 0
              April 29 2019 13: 04
              this is the loss of combat capability of the Black Sea Fleet

              against whom I am shy to ask
              against Turkey "Three Saints" and "Rostislav" enough for the eyes
              the transferred sailors do not own new equipment in the same way as the reservists

              very debatable, this is why the sailors, conditionally, from "Catherine II" right now are less competent than those who served 10 years ago, conditionally, on ... the same "Catherine II")
              1. +3
                April 29 2019 15: 08
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                less competent

                You twist. I wrote "do not master the technique exactly the same"
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                against Turkey "Three Saints" and "Rostislav"

                After that, it makes no sense to talk to you at all. Because you listed the only two ships whose specialists (at least artillerymen) could somehow be useful on the new battleships of Rozhestvensky.
                All that the transfer of the sailors from "Ekaterina" could give was the opportunity to cheerfully report: "We did not regret the best!" But this strange act will have no practical significance.
                I, in principle, can explain why, but the point ...
                1. +1
                  April 29 2019 18: 10
                  the specialists of which (at least the gunners) could somehow come in handy on the new battleships of Rozhestvensky


                  I think that I understand much better than many people the difference between the Catherine 2 and Borodino artillery mounts, about the difference in boilers and machines, too, a little in the subject, however, I repeat:
                  and what spare ones did you take for 2 TOE? - only those who were demobilized from "Poltava" a year ago, or also those who were demobilized 10 years ago from the conditional "Don't touch me"?

                  I have no answer, but judging by the severity of the debate with this question then, it may very well be that in fact the latter turned out to be very much

                  and don't forget about "7 percent free kicks"
                  1. +3
                    April 30 2019 08: 50
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    I think I understand much better than many people the difference between the Catherine 2 and Borodino artillery mounts

                    You think so in vain, otherwise you would not have written such nonsense.
                    In any case, Rozhdestvensky, even when he was in command of the UAO, raised the question of what is wrong to train commandants (and gunners in general) on obsolete guns
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    and what spare ones did you take for 2 TOE? - only those who were demobilized from "Poltava" a year ago, or also those who were demobilized 10 years ago from the conditional "Don't touch me"?

                    I don’t have an exact answer, but, as I understand the then mobilization rules, they were called up by age, and the first to fall were those who had just served.
                    do not forget about the "7 percent penalty"

                    Do not remind where you got it specifically from?
                    But in general, I can tell you how this is done (and why). The situation, I must say, has not changed so far.
                    When a new ship comes into service, a crew is formed on it. Some come from training units, where young sailors receive specialization. And some are transferred from other ships. And it is completely clear (I don’t know for you, but I’m for sure :)) that no sane commander will give up a good subordinate. Therefore, a gouge of a suitable specialty is taken and sent to the disposal. Moreover, if the required class is indicated in the transfer order, then the last handless utyrk could easily be assigned it, and at the same time "an excellent student in military and political." And I’m not joking right now.
                    In general, absolutely any new ship is a bunch of armless gouging and potential violators of discipline - any naval officer will tell you this. (by the way, the uprising on Potemkin from the same opera)
                    In principle, a similar situation, albeit in passing, is quite expressively described by Lutonin. just have to read carefully.
                    1. 0
                      April 30 2019 21: 36
                      You think so in vain, otherwise you would not have written such nonsense.


                      "Powerfully pushed in, inspires" (c)

                      called by age, and the first to fall, just recently served.


                      Probably, to bring them to a complete set on the ships in service at the time of the outbreak of the war, and on those entering service - "then the rest", no?

                      no sane commander will give up a good subordinate


                      in this situation (WAR!) You forgot to add: "if he is a moral hoopoe and a traitor", remember how Dietrich and Hausser regularly gave the best to the emerging divisions
                      1. +1
                        2 May 2019 08: 10
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        "Powerfully pushed in, inspires" (c)

                        Contact us.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Probably, to bring them to a complete set on the ships in service at the time of the outbreak of the war, and on those entering service - "then the rest", no?

                        I do not quite understand what you wanted to say. If the ship is in the campaign, it is equipped. If not (armed reserve, overhaul, etc.) - options are possible.
                        But in general, these are all assumptions.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        in this situation (WAR!)

                        Welcome to real life.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Dietrich and Hausser

                        They were not ship commanders.
                        But still read Lutonin.
                        And where does all the same about 7% come from?
                      2. 0
                        2 May 2019 11: 37
                        Contact us.

                        It was scarcism)

                        But still read Lutonin.

                        "After the ebullient activity of our Pacific squadron in 1900, 1901, 1902, in 1903 there was a complete lull - in winter the battleships were mostly in reserve, that is, they had to observe innocence and acquire capital. We did not go out to sea, we did not shoot were engaged ... In the fall, we all knew that the war was about to flare up, the formidable Japanese weapons were not a secret for us, we returned from Chemulpo on December 10 and saw that the denouement was approaching, and at the same time they wrote off and fired from Poltava 3/4 of its gunners were transferred to the reserve, replacing them with newcomers, who had to fight the Japanese. "
                        I do not seem to know that in the last months of 1903 up to 1500 specialist sailors who had served their term were dismissed from the squadron. :)
                        That's why I asked
                        and what spare ones did you take for 2 TOE? - only those who were demobilized from "Poltava" a year ago, or also those who were demobilized 10 years ago from the conditional "Don't touch me"?
                        I have no answer, but judging by the severity of the debate with this question then, it may very well be that in fact the latter turned out to be very much


                        And where does all the same about 7% come from?

                        already wrote:
                        maybe a myth, but I quote Novikov:
                        "So far, the lower ranks were closer to me. Many sailors were called up from the reserve. These elderly people, clearly weaned from the naval service, lived with memories of their homeland, were sick of separation from home, from children, from a wife. The war fell on them unexpectedly, like a terrible disaster, and they, preparing for an unprecedented campaign, performed work with a gloomy, strangled look. The team included many recruits. Stunned and miserable, they looked at everything with frozen horror in their eyes. They were frightened by the sea, on which they hit for the first time, and even more - an unknown future. Even among the career sailors who graduated from various special schools, there was no usual fun. Only penalties, in contrast to the rest, were more or less cheerful. The coastal authorities, in order to get rid of them as harmful element, came up with the easiest way to do this: write them off to ships going to war. Thus, to the dismay of the senior officer, we have accumulated up to seven percent of them. "
                        This is probably the primary source of this information. Novikov must be checked. I have an opportunity?
                      3. 0
                        2 May 2019 16: 35
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        scarcasm

                        And in response too :)
                        According to Lutonin - not this passage. There are a couple of episodes there when they transfer to Poltava from another ship (artist to artist), and when from Poltava and the senior officer of the receiving side was shocked that good and disciplined sailors were sent.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        This is probably the primary source of this information. Novikov must be checked.

                        Everyone needs to be checked, but there is not always an opportunity.
                        In principle, as I said, the increased percentage of penalties on new ships is not something extraordinary. You probably think that the "fines" were transferred to the second squadron directly from the disciplinary battalion? This is not true. "Penalties" served in the same way as ordinary sailors, they just did not give them a glass and a surplus salary. Well, corporal punishment could be applied to them.
  18. +3
    April 28 2019 22: 55
    Quote: AK64
    100% of non-explosions --- this is the result of the shooting of the Glory for Sveaborg in 1906: Glory is Borodinets. and the shells there were exactly the same as on the 2 th TOE.

    Exploring Available Sources not gives us grounds to assert that the shells were allegedly 100% denied, all the more so, as Melnikov wrote, they could shoot there practical shells.

    1) Here is an article from the Military Review "Sveaborg Uprising of 1906", which says
    Departing for 11-12 km (beyond the reach of the artillery of the "rebels"), the battleship "Tsesarevich" and the cruiser "Bogatyr" fired fiercely at the rebels for two hours, causing great destruction and causing fires.

    Where did the fires and destruction come from if not a single shell exploded?

    2) Monograph by S. Vinogradov "Battleship" Glory "". About low-quality shells - not a word.

    3) RM Melnikov "" Glory. The last battleship of the era of dotsushima shipbuilding. " There, on the contrary, "Tsarevich" was shooting, not "Glory".

    Thus, we can conclude that there is no reason to talk about supposedly 100% of the missiles that were not exploded. This is all just from the words of battalier Novikov, who could have read about it in the "yellow press" and then passed it off as a historical fact.
    1. +2
      April 28 2019 23: 12
      Familiarization with available sources does not give us any reason to assert that allegedly one hundred percent shell failures,


      By the way, yes, dear colleague, plus, I myself have never seen a proof of 100% shell failure
    2. +2
      April 29 2019 12: 48
      Quote: Comrade
      Thus, we can conclude that there is no reason to talk about allegedly 100% non-freezing shells.


      Dear Valentine.
      There is no deception in the statement about 100% of non-exploded large-caliber shells. It really was, but it has nothing to do with the shooting of ships. "Tsarevich" fired at batteries located on Mikhailovsky and Aleksandrovsky islands, and rebels fired at the fortress from the captured batteries. A small fragment from the report of I.O. the commandant of the Sveaborg fortress, Major General Lyming, dated August 2, 1906;

      "........ despite the strong artillery fire for 2 1/2 days, damage to the fortifications is insignificant .......
      ....... such a small reality of fire can be explained by the fact that the shooting was mainly carried out from 9-pound field guns, falling large-caliber shells, including up to 11 inch mortars, and falling into buildings fortunately did not burst, as a result of which they did not bring much harm.
      ..."

      The writer could only, having slightly corrected, insert this fragment into the text, linking it to the necessary topic.
  19. +3
    April 29 2019 04: 57
    Dear Andrey, here is a fragment of the map attached by the commander of the "Shinano Maru" to the battle report. There, the discovery of the "Eagle" and the subsequent maneuvers of the Japanese.
    For convenience, the trajectory of the "Japanese" is highlighted in red.

    Time on the map, alas, is not stamped anywhere.
    1. +4
      April 29 2019 17: 23
      Curious picture, in my opinion, puts everything in its place. To determine the course of the vessel, the scout must cross the target's course and take a bearing to it when the masts are in alignment. Moreover, if this happens at night, then you must cross the course ahead of the target, because the masthead lights on the masts only shine forward. Or when both side lights are visible at the same time. It can be seen that the Shinano-maru made this maneuver to refine the Eagle's course five times. Did he himself want to be discovered? Of course not. Therefore, he walked ahead of the "Eagle" at the limit of visibility of its lights. Probably five kilometers or more. In addition, the "Eagle" was much closer to the warships than the prescribed 50 cables. As a result, the Japanese almost collided nose to nose with a column of warships, as I understand this moment is shown on the penultimate circle of his path, marked with a triangle. Rozhestvensky's "cunning design" in reality meant a 2% probability of detecting XNUMXTOE warships.
      1. +1
        April 29 2019 18: 12
        colleague, plus
        1. -3
          April 30 2019 08: 02
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          colleague, plus

          I do not even know what to say :)))) Minusishche, of course, for the complete lack of critical perception of what was written
          1. +1
            April 30 2019 17: 46
            Less for spam.
      2. 0
        April 30 2019 08: 01
        Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
        It can be seen that the Shinano-maru made this maneuver to refine the Eagle's course five times.

        Can not see.

        This interpretation fully fits the Japanese description of this episode, your "five times" and
        Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
        walked ahead of the "Eagle" at the limit of visibility of its lights.

        completely contradicts him
        1. +2
          April 30 2019 17: 53
          By order of the most respected Andrei, the Japanese had to confuse the ship

          and. one (!),
          b. white,
          at. with a red cross
          without guns,
          d. with a bunch of lights.

          с

          and. long column of steamboats
          b. black
          at. without a cross
          with big big guns
          d. without lights

          The probability of this event is left on his conscience.
          1. +1
            1 May 2019 09: 27
            Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
            The probability of this event is left on his conscience.

            Leave. especially amused here
            Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
            b. white,
            at. with a red cross
            without guns,

            At night, the white color and the red cross are so clearly seen :)))) And the guns - the Japanese had to get very close to the eagle in order to see their absence, to see them on obscure silhouettes in the night - not a trivial matter.
            1. -1
              8 May 2019 16: 16
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              White is so clearly visible at night


              Lay a dark mat in the bathtub, preferably dark blue. Cut out two silhouettes of boats from paper, one white, the other black. Put on a mat in a dark bath and mix in complete darkness. Open the door to the smallest gap - it will be like the light of the moon and stars. Well, you can flashlight through the fabric. So that the boats were barely visible. You can easily make sure that it is impossible to mix them up.
        2. +1
          1 May 2019 10: 19
          subject to study the issue in the complex, taking into account who and how many lights lit

          it is well known that Nebogatov taught to walk only on the hullboard running fire
          then it is logical to assume that other vessels included at least 2 more wakeboats (without lights it meant = without top and running distinguishing ones)

          personally, if I were a Japanese captain, who could easily not have known about Russian ideas, at first I would have fallen into a slight stupor upon seeing the strange illumination of the "Eagle"
    2. +1
      April 29 2019 18: 01
      Greetings, dear Valentine!
      I will answer immediately and to your earlier comment :)
      Quote: Comrade
      Why not ?
      Displacement "Retvizan" - 12 tons, took about 000 tons of water through an underwater hole. The battleship commander wrote that this reduced the ship's speed by one knot.

      This is extremely doubtful; estimates through the Admiralty coefficient do not show that at such an overload the speed can drop to the node. Most likely, the commander had in mind the cumulative effect of various factors of combat damage, including trim and, most importantly, the strength of the bulkheads, which did not allow for the development of full speed.
      Quote: Comrade
      Dear colleague, 15,4 knots is the speed of the steamer during acceptance tests, with a displacement unknown to us. But the "Pearl" showed over 23 knots in tests, and in a real combat situation only 20 was able to squeeze out.
      Therefore, I believe that, most likely, 12 knots for "Shinano Maru" was the real maximum speed.

      Well, the "pearl" could have squeezed out even more, here is the question, in fact. but the fact that the ship could take 1500 tons of coal ... Colleague, there can be no confusion? for example, that we are talking about coal and not about deadweight?
      In principle, everything is possible, we do not know the state of Shinano Maru machines. Maybe the 12 nodes, as you write. But again, even on 12 nodes, it would outrun the Eagle in less than an hour hi
      For the scheme - thanks, very funny :))) And well illustrates why you need to be very careful about eyewitness accounts - the position of the ships shown on it is impossible
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +1
        April 30 2019 01: 04
        Dear Andrew,
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Colleague, there can be no confusion? for example, what is it about coal, not deadweight?

        Judge for yourself.


        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        For the circuit - thanks, very funny:


        Probably, Haruka-san would be pleased to hear such a high assessment of the humble work of his navigator :-)
      3. +1
        April 30 2019 01: 07
        Dear Andrew,
        since more than two photos are not displayed in the comments, I will continue in the second
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        This is extremely doubtful. Estimates through the Admiralty coefficient do not show in any way that with such an overload the speed can drop to a knot.

        Schennovich, the commander of the battleship, says it all very clearly:


        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Well, "pearls" could have squeezed even more
        You are absolutely right, dear colleague, I have laid out the wrong figure.
        1. 0
          April 30 2019 07: 53
          Quote: Comrade
          Judge for yourself.

          I will try, although due to the lack of habit, I cannot even understand the words feel
          Quote: Comrade
          Probably, Haruka-san would be pleased to hear such a high assessment of the humble work of his navigator :-)

          Well, the navigator had nothing to do with it, only observers :))))) I do not question the route of the Japanese ship, I'm sure everything is correct. But the position of the Russian squadron ....
          Quote: Comrade
          Schennovich, the commander of the battleship, says it all very clearly:

          Just the opposite - extremely confusing.
          Firstly, it is completely unclear what the speed of Retvizan Schensnovich considered the maximum (I strongly doubt that 18 nodes). Secondly, even if we take 18 nodes, and assume that 500 t reduces it by one node, it turns out that roughly 1250 t difference between the normal and full displacement + 500 t excess water should give a speed reduction on the 3,5 node, there is up to 14,5 knots, but not to 15-16. My personal opinion is that Shchensnovich believed that at full acceleration in the normal displacement his EBR would give 17 knots, and the water inside + the coal would reduce it to 15-16 knots. But this, again, is just an opinion
          1. +2
            1 May 2019 02: 19
            Dear Andrew,
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I will try, although due to the lack of habit, I cannot even understand the words

            Sorry, I should give a decryption right away.
            This is a snippet of an excellent Shinano Maru diagram, which, in addition to graphic materials, contains a lot of information, including coal reserves.
            Coal capacities
            Cross bunker at bove of boiler space - 178 tons
            Pocket bunker at after of boiler space - 38 tons
            Tween decks alongside of boiler space - 234 tons
            Tween decks alongside engine - 86 tons
            Total - 536 tons
            Reserve bunker hold - 770 tons
            Reserve bunker tween decks - 264 tons
            Grand total - 1 570 tons

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I do not question the route of the Japanese ship, I’m sure everything is right there. But the position of the Russian squadron ....

            I don't think everything is clear there. I assure you, in what order our ships were sailing on the morning of May 14, the Japanese knew very well, the proof of this is the excellent scheme of the marching order available in the "Top Secret History". And all the maneuvers and rearrangements of Rozhdestvensky on the eve of the battle were also recorded by the Japanese.
            Unfortunately, there is no way to read the comments on the diagram. The problem is that the scanning quality of this circuit is low. What you see is the result of a fourfold increase.
            As you can see, the lines of many hieroglyphs merge, which makes it impossible to recognize OCR or to identify the character for subsequent typing manually. A similar problem is with the report of the ship's commander. Although there is a typographic font, the report is printed on low quality paper, and on the side where the text you need is, you see elements of the text interrupted from the back. Such disgrace is not everywhere, but it occurs, which creates additional difficulties.
            Therefore, I believe that you, my dear colleague, were quick to make conclusions, because first you need to read the comments on this scheme.
    3. 0
      April 29 2019 18: 12
      yes, now everything is clear - thanks, super!
  20. +1
    April 30 2019 11: 27
    If you distract from emotions, it should be recognized that camouflage and demonstration events could bring success in breaking through part of the ships of the 2nd Pacific Squadron to Vladivostok.
    To do this, it was necessary to divide the squadron into four groups:
    The first detachment: the core of the 2nd Pacific squadron of the EBR "Prince Suvorov", "Emperor Alexander III", "Eagle" and, possibly, "Borodino"; the cruisers "Almaz" and "Izumrud" and all the destroyers - the breakthrough squadron through the Korean Strait.
    The second detachment: EBR "Oslyabya", cruisers "Oleg", "Aurora", "Svetlana", as well as auxiliary cruisers "Rion", "Dnepr", "Kuban", "Terek" and "Ural" - a cruising squadron sent to bypassing Japan.
    The third detachment: the remaining battleships, the cruisers "Admiral Nakhimov", "Dmitry Donskoy", "Vladimir Monomakh", "Izumrud", hospital ships with illumination - a demonstration squadron of a breakthrough, after detection and clashes with the cruisers should go to a neutral port and disarm.
    The fourth detachment: the cruisers "Dmitry Donskoy", "Vladimir Monomakh", transports and the floating workshop "Kamchatka" - separates from the squadron before the breakthrough and returns to the Baltic.
    Of course, this plan sins with a fair aftertaste and looks like an adventure, but still, under certain circumstances, it could lead to success. However, admirals of equal quality I. Yamamoto, D. Odzawa, N. Kondo and T. Kurita would have to command the detachments.
    1. 0
      April 30 2019 15: 32
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      To do this, it was necessary to divide the squadron into four groups:

      Let's say
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      The first detachment: the core of the 2nd Pacific squadron of the EBR "Prince Suvorov", "Emperor Alexander III", "Eagle" and, possibly, "Borodino"; the cruisers "Almaz" and "Izumrud" and all the destroyers - the breakthrough squadron through the Korean Strait.

      They die in full force on May 14. After that, the Japanese, not finding the Oslyabyu co-comrades, go to Vladivostok, where they intercept the cruising detachment
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      The third detachment: the remaining battleships, the cruisers "Admiral Nakhimov", "Dmitry Donskoy", "Vladimir Monomakh", "Izumrud", hospital ships with illumination - a demonstration squadron of a breakthrough, after detection and clashes with the cruisers should go to a neutral port and disarm.

      Let's clarify :)))) The Japanese cruisers, having established contact, this squadron will not be released anymore, but if it turns and goes to winter apartments, it will not be pursued (why?) Thus, according to your plan You merge the main forces of the squadron in parts, and the old ships did not pass to Vladivostok. What's the point?
      1. +1
        April 30 2019 17: 10
        Sorry, did not thank for a very interesting article.
        There is a nuance.
        Togo does not have time everywhere, and Kamimura is not so nagging and less resistant to injury.
        Get involved Kamimura in pursuit of the demonstration squadron and Togo is left without a movable wing. The first detachment has an equal move with the battleships of Togo (that's just "Borodino" ...) so there may not be a battle on 14.05.1905/28/1904, except in the evening, and this is a different alignment. Here you are right: the gunners of the Second Pacific Squadron shoot better than the First, and in catch-up they have every chance against the battleships of Togo (repetition of the battle on July XNUMX, XNUMX). And so - the battle was actually fought by the battleships of the first detachment against the battleships of Togo, and "Borodino" behaved well. Kamimura mainly fought with auxiliary forces and finished off the wounded. By the way, an important circumstance is the small supply of fuel on Japanese ships. as long as they ran back and forth, they would have to slow down.
        As for sending a detachment around Japan, he had to act on the circumstances. It would hardly have been possible to deal with Kamimura, but the Japanese light cruisers are not so formidable opponents. In addition, the raiding of auxiliary cruisers would make us think not about blocking Vladivostok, but about protecting communications.
        Of course, the afterthought about the complete defeat justifies any adventurous plans - it will not be worse anyway.
        The trouble is that only Rozhestvensky is suitable for commanding scattered detachments. Nebogatov and Enquist - an empty place, maybe Baer?
        1. 0
          April 30 2019 17: 31
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Sorry, did not thank for a very interesting article.

          Not at all, glad that you liked it!
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          There is a nuance.
          Togo does not have time everywhere, and Kamimura is not so nagging and less resistant to injury.
          Get involved in Kamimura in pursuit of the demonstration squadron

          He will not do that. What for? The Japanese are interested in the destruction of the squadron, which breaks through to Vladivostok. The incomplete squadron (and they know the composition of the 2 and 3 TOE ships) from the Vladivostok (the demonstration detachment described by you without the latest EDBs) will not interest them. Japanese scouts will be able to consider a squad of sluggers in all forms, 5 does not have the best Russian DAD, this is clearly a military trick. And to throw Kamimura on a bunch of armadillos Togo will not be - why?
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          The first squad has an equal turn with the battleships of Togo (that's just Borodino ...)

          Alas, no, the 13 nodes on the force.
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          so 14.05.1905 may not have a battle, except in the evening, and this is another story.

          And where should he go? As soon as the Japanese find the forces reaching the breakthrough, they come forward to meet them. By the way, if 14 in May Togo would have found no one, he would most likely have moved to Vladivostok, believing that the Russians had gone around Japan.
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          As for sending the detachment around Japan, then he had to act in the circumstances

          I understand, but circumstances turn out to be so-so - there will be enough coal to Vladivostok (by the way, it may not be enough, we need to consider it), how can there be more raiding?
          1. +1
            April 30 2019 21: 27
            Alas, no, the 13 nodes on the force.


            The Eagle always kept Nicholas’s wake-fire all the time and, keeping a distance of two cables, developed the 92 turn, the course of the 13 nodes. Mechanics said that a couple of missing enough, and the machines work fine. If necessary, you can develop a full stroke. Judging by the number of revolutions, the ship could easily develop to 16 nodes.

            Due to the consumption of shells, coal, water, oil and items thrown overboard during the battle, the battleship unloaded up to 800 tons, surfaced 16 inches, the main armor belt appeared from the water. The mechanisms and steering wheel are in good condition, 750 tons of fuel remained. Full speed remained up to 15 1 / 2–16 knots.
        2. 0
          2 May 2019 22: 25
          except for Rozhestvensky’s,

          belay
          "Alexander III" and "Borodino" in the situation in which they were at the head of the column, maneuvered much better than Rozhdestvensky
          True, discipline excludes my option for the start of the battle: "Eagle" gives 15 knots and goes strongly to the right, "Borodino" gives 13 knots and goes a little less to the right behind "Eagle", "Oslyabya" does not stop cars, the Japanese are greeted albeit stupid, but no less front, though not so embarrassing
    2. 0
      4 May 2020 09: 09
      In my opinion, it was foolish to conduct transports in the same squadron with the main forces.
      In battle, but Rozhestvensky understood that battle was inevitable, there was no one to cover the transports. The strength of our cruisers was clearly not enough. Then what's the point of dragging transports for slaughter?
      Transports had to be sent either around Japan or through the Tsushima Strait the next night after the main forces that the Japanese ships would take with them.
      It was necessary to distinguish Donskoy and Monomakh and the “undercruiser” for transport.
      And Oleg, Aurora and pebbles would be better engaged in reconnaissance with the main forces.
  21. +1
    April 30 2019 14: 25
    Tsushima - the skate of Andrei Nikolaevich) Respect, as always, for the most detailed analysis!
    1. 0
      April 30 2019 17: 32
      Quote: Trapper7
      Espect as always for the most detailed analysis!

      Thank you, Dmitry, glad you liked it!
  22. +3
    2 May 2019 00: 31
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    and what spare ones did you take for 2 TOE? - only those who were demobilized from "Poltava" a year ago, or also those who were demobilized 10 years ago from the conditional "Don't touch me"?

    Three years after the dismissal from the fleet were in reserve, therefore, the maximum period that a conscript was absent from the fleet was three years.
    1. +2
      2 May 2019 12: 17
      In stock were three years after the dismissal from the fleet


      There is a text of the "Charter of general military service", it says:
      "18. The total service life in the fleet is determined at ten years, of which seven years - active service and three years - in reserve"

      In the literature, for some reason I saw (with reference to the 1888 edition): active service 7 years + 13 years reserve, an error?
    2. 0
      2 May 2019 12: 46
      In general, with the manning of the fleet in 1904-1905, I have a little cognitive dissonance.

      Open Bloodless:
      In the first five years of the XX century. gained in accordance with the established norms: in 1900 at
      at a rate of 13, 000 people were recruited, in 12, at a rate of 585, 1902 people were recruited, and in 10, at the same rate, 000 people were recruited. In 12, it was supposed to recruit 705, and 1903 people were recruited.
      Norm 10 * 000 years = 7 sailors
      Norm is greater - the number is even greater

      at the same time: The number of sailors, including the composition of the coastal teams:
      1900 = 48,7 thousand people
      1901 = 57,3 thousand people
      1902 = 58,2 thousand people
      1903 = 59,6 thousand people
      1904 = 61,4 thousand people
      1905 = 40,4 thousand people

      Since I do not have data on how many of these numbers - I need to think further.
      And so there can be as many versions as you like, starting from the fact that in reality sailors for 2 TOE were recruited ... in 1901, and then all this time purposefully prepared

      That would be here who figured out)
  23. +4
    2 May 2019 01: 04
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    Kostenko had a day to inspect the damage, ... Kostenko simply physically didn’t have the opportunity to calculate the smaller holes available in large quantities

    Dear colleague,
    Vladimir Polievktovich would not agree with you. As he himself wrote, for an external examination of the time he had almost a wagon and a small cart :-)
    "Eagle" stood in Maizuru not far from the coast, was flooded with sunlight, which, according to Kostenko, gave him an excellent opportunity to draw a diagram of hits on the battleship, and which was then agreed and clarified with the officers of the ship. One thing is embarrassing about this, some of the hits drawn by Kostenko are missing in the photographs.
    1. +1
      2 May 2019 12: 02
      Good morning, dear colleague!

      "I'm sorry, dunce, I'll fix it":

      Just reviewed again:
      “At the same time, the Japanese commander expressed extreme surprise at the resilience of our battleships that remained in the ranks, even having received such heavy and numerous damage as the Eagle. According to the Japanese, this battleship received up to 40 hits of 12-inch high-explosive shells and up to 100 shells of 6-inch and 8-inch calibers. Obviously, the dead battleships of the same type “Suvorov”, “Alexander III” and “Borodino” suffered even greater damage, having sustained an intense artillery battle for more than five hours ....
      In the middle of the bay is anchored our "Eagle", turned to us by the port side. It is perfectly visible from the top floor of the hospital, and I was able to accurately sketch all the external holes of the building. Having made a general drawing of an armadillo from memory, I was able, based on the observations, notes, and stories of the combatants, to note all the shells hit on both sides. Setting the caliber of shells, I collected all the data on the holes received. This drawing with marks of the caliber of the shells and the moment of hits made it possible to consistently restore the picture of the participation of our battleship in the battle. "

      Thank you for correcting. But, I think, this alignment makes Vladimir Polievktovich even more right.
      I have no doubt that the method "according to the size of the hole" and the size of the holes themselves were derived by him empirically, by correlating the number of heavy shells and the size of the holes.

      It confuses one thing, some of the hits drawn by Kostenko are missing in the photographs.

      Here it is necessary to disassemble separately, sogalsen. Moreover, the Japanese information about the holes and its scheme sometimes have significant discrepancies. But, this is not a reason to say "yes, he is lying, as some do")
      1. +2
        2 May 2019 13: 52
        Dear colleague, if we accept the “Japanese information” referred to by Kostenko, we must agree that the Japanese armadillos from the main-caliber guns achieved over fifty percent of hits.
        Why not, you ask? Yes, because at the last training exercises before Tsushima, when the Togo detachment fired at a small island, the results were so-so.
        I am writing from work, there are no exact numbers at hand, but statistics on these shootings are widely known.
        And then suddenly a miracle, the conditions are by no means hothouse, but the accuracy of shooting at the same time went wild.
        So either Kostenko is lying, or it is not clear why the Japanese lied.
        1. 0
          2 May 2019 15: 50
          Dear colleague, I fully agree with you about Japanese accuracy. I will not ask "why not", for I have no doubt.

          so I wrote earlier:
          IMHO, Orel was hit by far more than 10 12-inch rounds and much more than 30 8-inch rounds (most of which Kostenko misclassified as 12-inch)

          as well as:
          I don’t assure you that exactly 42 12 "shells and exactly 100 in 8" and 6 "hit the Eagle.


          and I also don’t accuse Kostenko of lying in this case, since .... there are a lot of options: for example, a Japanese could himself receive information in the format "hole size - caliber", where the caliber was overstated, and this information has already been shared with Kostenko
          Kostenko could have guessed, judging by the exhaustion of the Eagle's ammunition, that the Japanese spent about 1500 rounds of 12 inches, having achieved 200-250 hits in the head five battleships

          In general, Kostenko, of course, was mistaken - this is understandable, but I see no reason to accuse him of knowingly lying
          1. +3
            2 May 2019 17: 02
            Dear colleague,
            About six years ago, I posted material on the topic of allegedly overloading the "Eagle" as of the morning of May 14 1905, which Kostenko insists on.
            Tonight I will send you a link to this work.
            It is very likely that after reading the article your attitude towards Vlidimir Polievktovich will change.
            1. 0
              2 May 2019 17: 53
              it will be super, thanks in advance!
            2. +1
              2 May 2019 23: 50
              The link did not come while I wait to write in a nutshell.
              If this is "On the issue of reloading battleships in the Russian-Japanese." Eagle "" - read

              I will say right away an opinion that has not yet changed:
              -in the investigation, Kostenko said that he knew and how he knew how, then, when they began to understand, he clarified his numbers - there is no problem
              - during the writing of the book, Kostenko decided to pretend to be a super-brain and threw back part of his afterlife at that time,
              - I think that the "Eagle" kept excess pressure for the course, so it could gobble up more than 200 tons of coal per day, and maybe more than 300 tons
              -the estimation of the mass of coal is very curve (then it was mainly done by measuring the pits), but the bulk density is unreliable, here you can walk plus or minus 10% easily
              - there is no data on specific measures to reduce rainfall during the battle: they could, for example, pump out excess boiler and drinking water
              -Could throw 100 tons of rubbish overboard easily + something else burned out,
              - the water used to extinguish fires was lowered into the hold and pumped out, there might not have been much weight to gain,
              - in the mass of ammunition, it is also necessary to take into account additional racks and canisters for shells and charges,
              and so on
              In general, 800 tons could float. And he could have 500. And he could stay at the same mark.
              Do not understand here already.

              after reading the article, your attitude towards Vlidimir Polievktovich will change.

              No, not at all. I would consider it a mega-brain, if he had all this at once outlined and clearly stated the commission of inquiry. He did not. Conclusion: just a normal engineer. Another thing is that against the background of Rozhestvensky, even just an intelligent bachelor is a genius. Well, I think so, at least.
              1. +2
                3 May 2019 02: 25
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                Link did not come

                I wrote, I’ll send a link to my work in the evening. It is evening now.
                The time when a comment is left does not mean anything, I'm in a different time zone.
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                If this is "On the issue of reloading battleships in the Russian-Japanese." Orel ""
                Yes, that's her.

                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                during the investigation, Kostenko said that he knew and how he knew how, then, when they began to understand, he clarified his numbers
                Excuse me, who exactly began to understand?

                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                I think that the "Oryol" kept excess pressure for the course, so it could gobble up more than 200 tons of coal per day, and maybe more than 300 tons
                My article says:
                "taking into account the combat situation and the damage to the pipes, we’ll take the daily fuel consumption on the Eagle twice as much as during the transition - 257 т."

                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                there is no data on specific measures to reduce rainfall during the battle: they could, for example, pump out excess boiler and drinking water
                Have you read somewhere that boiler room and drinking water were thrown overboard on the Orel, or is this your guess?

                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                could throw 100 tons of rubbish overboard easily
                It is described somewhere that one hundred tons thrown away?

                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                No, not at all.

                Then the question. Do you think he deliberately lied when he cited information that did not correspond to reality about the remaining ammunition of the "Eagle", or simply repeated someone else's deliberate lie?
                1. +1
                  3 May 2019 06: 56
                  who exactly began to understand?

                  request but from somewhere he got the figures clarified, I suppose that the issue of overloading the "Eagle" became the subject of thorough research after the RYA

                  "Due to the consumption of shells, coal, water, oil and objects thrown overboard during the battle, the battleship unloaded up to 800 tons, surfaced 16 inches, the main armor belt appeared from the water. The mechanisms and rudder are in good order, 750 tons of fuel remained."

                  twice as much as during the transition - 257 t

                  could be 1095 - 750 = 345 tons,
                  there could have been 400, now there is no way to find out, alas

                  boiler room and drinking water were thrown overboard on "Orel"

                  It is described somewhere

                  this is my assumption, but it is very logical, additional water is the first way to unload the vessel, especially, very simple, I think Kostenko did not just mention the "water and oil consumption", why in my opinion he is not a mega-brain, but just normal engineer: if he had a mega-brain would have convinced the commander to get rid of the surplus before the battle, it can be assumed that the emergency "unloading" of the battleship was done by someone else

                  in defense of Kostenko. if it weren’t for him, even there would have been no such book about Tsushima from its participants, hadn’t Semenov read

                  he lied when he cited information that did not correspond to reality about the remaining ammunition of the "Eagle", or simply repeated someone else's deliberate lie

                  I think that his responsibilities did not include ammunition accounting exactly
                  with shells on the "Eagle" I don't even have theories why this is

                  PS. The article is extremely interesting, I thought a lot about it, however, I repeat:
                  In general, 800 tons could float. And he could have 500. And he could stay at the same mark. Do not understand here already.
    2. 0
      3 May 2019 00: 10
      It confuses one thing, some of the hits drawn by Kostenko are missing in the photographs.

      like three holes according to Japanese data versus five according to Kostenko. it is necessary to take into account a bunch of fragmentation holes and the fact that the disputed zones on a black background
      1. 0
        4 May 2020 08: 58
        More big questions with the reliability of Japanese data. There are a lot of mistakes!
  24. +1
    7 May 2019 18: 34
    Quote: AK64
    Just Makarov propaganda glorified


    Okay, so be it: Makarov was sung. But, for example, you will not argue that Enquist is also glorified by propaganda. For some reason, the corrupt deceitful NP does not write about him how he blunts the sailors. What would be easier, describe how Enquist knocks out four teeth and howls "oo-oo-oo", and then still show him as a coward and insignificance in battle - the communists will dump millions. And how Enquist shoots doctors, the officers also do not spread gossip. And about Nebogatov, no one ever remembered that he was scoffing at the sailors, swearing, shooting at doctors or howling. And about Jung it is said: "he forbade scuffle on the ship." Novikov, what are you doing? Who do you work for, bastard? What do you do, the tsarist satrap himself does not beat the sailors, and does not allow others? Did you get paid for this? Yes, he has a cleaner place.

    On the battleship "Oslyabya" was the commander of the second armored detachment, Admiral von Felkerzam. The sailors called him among themselves simply Filka. The man he was good natured and sometimes loved to jabber with the lower ranks, but, busy with the affairs of the headquarters, did not intervene in ship orders and did not notice what was happening around him on the ship.

    The flagship navigator, Lieutenant Colonel Osipov, was popular among the team. Tall, long-legged, he, despite his old age, walked with quick steps. His head and thin, but at the same time red face was overgrown with thick gray hair, as if covered with shreds of sea fog. From long wanderings in the seas and oceans, blue eyes faded, and large and straight foreheads were furrowed by deep wrinkles. The old man was by nature so kindthat under him the officers were embarrassed to beat the sailors. Everyone loved him and the name was Beard.


    What time! The royal satraps were good-natured, sailors loved them!

    In my opinion, if we discard the theory of world conspiracies against the innocent lamb Zinovy ​​Petrovich, the riddle is explained simply: about those who did not beat the sailors, they did not write about those that beat. The enquist was indecisive, it was written about him that he was indecisive, and that the sailors had beaten, not written. Nebogatov was cowardly, in the novel he was shown cowardly, and that he didn’t say that he beat the sailors either, because he really did not differ in this direction.

    Some kind of special order for a personal figure from the Soviet government could have been present, but usually if this figure especially annoyed the Soviet government with something. Of the sailors, these are: officers killed on the Potemkin. Needless to say, Kolchak (tastefully baked at Stepanov's at Port Arthur). Viren, since he was killed by sailors in Kronstadt, could not be good either. As for Rozhestvensky, Nebogatov, Enqvist, they were not personally guilty of the Soviet regime, therefore the ideological censors were not interested. This explains why the Soviet authorities missed The Three Ages of Okini-san without any problems, the second part of which is a retelling of Semyonov's "Reckoning" in his own words with an apology for Zinovy ​​Petrovich.