Thousands of tanks, dozens of battleships, or features of military construction of the USSR before the Great Patriotic War. Fleet

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Let us now try to figure out what place shipbuilding programs occupied in the prewar military construction of the USSR. Unfortunately, in a couple of articles that the author proposes to devote to this issue, it is decidedly impossible to analyze in any detail the evolution of the plans for the construction of the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Fleet (RKKF), but still some minimum will be necessary.

As you know, in the 20 of the last century, the young Soviet Union did not have the means to adequately maintain and build its armed forces. The fleet has always been a very expensive weapons system, so no serious shipbuilding programs at that time could not exist by definition. Soviet naval sailors had to confine themselves to a small number of ships left over from Tsarist Russia, for the maintenance of which in the fleet it was still possible to scrape money, gradually building and modernizing something that, again, began to be built during the reign of the king.





Nevertheless, of course, the USSR could not manage only with the ships of the pre-revolutionary construction. Therefore, by the end of the 20s, the first Soviet submarines, watchdogs, etc. began to be developed and built. Without getting into the vicissitudes of the theoretical research of the apologists of the “Big” and “mosquito” fleets, we note that in the specific conditions in which the USSR was in the late 20s and early 30s, there were some significant programs for the construction of heavy ships completely impossible for many reasons. The country had absolutely no resources for this: no money, not enough skilled workers, no machinery, no armor, no metal - in general, nothing. That is why in the first half of the 30s the RKKF could only count on the construction of light surface ships, submarines and sea aviation.

During the 1927-1932 period, that is, during the first five-year plan (five-year plan) of the USSR, the emphasis was on civil shipbuilding - military orders accounted for only 26% of the total construction of ships and ships. But by the next five years, this situation was to change.

The basic document that determined the direction of military shipbuilding during this period was the “Basic Considerations for the Development of the Red Army Naval Forces for the Second Five-Year Plan (1933-1935)” (it was not about the five-year plan for the year 3, but about the priorities of shipbuilding 1935 g.). The main task of the fleet at that time was to defend the maritime borders of the USSR, and this could be done, according to the developers, by building a powerful submarine and air fleet. It is interesting that, despite the seemingly purely defensive orientation, even then the developers of the document considered it necessary to focus efforts on the construction of submarines of medium and large displacement, suitable for operation on enemy communications, at a great distance from their shores, but the creation of small submarines to defend their own bases should be limited.

Based on this document, a shipbuilding program for the 1933-1938 was formed. It was approved by the Council of Labor and Defense (STO) 11 July 1933, according to her, it was planned to put into operation 8 light cruisers, 10 leaders, 40 destroyers, 28 sentry ships, 42 minesweepers, 252 torpedo boats, 60 hunters for X submarines, as well as 69 large, 200 medium and 100 small submarines, and all - 503 surface ships and 369 submarines. Naval aviation by 1936 was supposed to increase from 459 to 1 655 units. In general, the adoption of this very ambitious program marked a fundamental reversal in the relevant sectors, since the military shipbuilding sector now occupied 60% in the total cost of new ships and vessels, and the civilian sector only 40%.

Of course, the shipbuilding program on 1933-1938. In no way did she threaten the ocean fleet, especially since most submarines still had to be submarines of the type "Y", which, unfortunately, were not very well suited to combat sea communications, and absolutely on communications. ocean. Also from today's standpoint, the program overloading with submarines and torpedo boats is obvious to the detriment of larger ships, such as cruisers and destroyers, but in the framework of this article we will not go deeper into this either.

So, despite its obviously "coastal" nature, the program 1933-1938. in its original version, it was still unaffordable for the domestic industry, and as early as November 1933, that is, only a month after 4 was adopted, the SRT was significantly adjusted to the lower side, and relatively large surface ships were the first to undergo sequestration. Of the 8 light cruisers, only 4 was left, of the 10 leaders, 8, and of the 40 destroyers, the total of 22, while the submarine construction plans were reduced slightly from 369 to 321 units.

But in a reduced form the program failed to execute. For 1938, inclusive, the RKKF received only one light cruiser from the 4 (Kirov, and then, to a certain extent arbitrarily), from the 8 leaders - 4, from the 22 destroyers - 7, etc. Even submarines, the usefulness of which was never denied by anyone and never, were built substantially less than the plan - inclusive of 1937 g inclusively, and it is clear that under any circumstances ships later laid down could not be put into operation before the start. 151

A small remark: it is possible that some of the esteemed readers will want to draw parallels with the present day - after all, now we also have war shipbuilding programs being disrupted. In fact, looking at the shipbuilding of the USSR of those years, one can see a lot in common - the country also experienced problems literally at every turn. Projects of warships, often, turned out to be suboptimal, or contained serious miscalculations, the industry did not have time to master the creation of the necessary units and equipment, and the fact that it did work out was often of poor quality. The construction period was regularly disrupted, the ships were built for an extremely long time not only in comparison with industrialized capitalist countries, but even in comparison with tsarist Russia. But, nevertheless, there were differences: for example, already in 1936 of the USSR, despite all the above difficulties, it had the world's first submarine fleet. The RKKF by that time included the 113 Submarines, the United States with the 84 submarines were in second place, and the third with the United States with 77 submarines.


"U-207"


The next national shipbuilding program began to be developed in December 1935, when the RKKF command received the relevant orders from the government of the country, and had 2 key differences from the previous one.

1933-1938 program compiled by experts of the Navy and approved after the approval of the leadership of the armed forces and the country, with the amendment to the possibility of shipbuilding. But the new program was formed “in a narrow circle”, it was the head of the Red Forces Naval Forces V.M. Orlov and the head of the Naval Academy I.M. Ludri under the direction of I.V. Stalin. Thus, we can say that the new shipbuilding program reflected, first of all, the vision of RKKF by the top leadership of the USSR.

Well, the second difference was that, despite the rather amusing tactical justification, the new shipbuilding program “aimed” at building a “Big Fleet”, the basis of which was made up of heavy artillery ships - battleships. Why did this happen?

You can, of course, try to explain the change in the principles of the formation of a new shipbuilding program with the voluntarism of Joseph Vissarionovich, who was impressed by the big ships. But in fact, it seems that everything was much more complicated.

It is easy to see how threatening the international situation of those years was. For some time after the First World War in Europe, peace was established, but it, this time, is now clearly coming to an end. In Germany, Adolf Hitler came to power, and his revanchist course was evident with the naked eye. At the same time, England and France, at that time - the guarantors of peace in Europe, looked at the rearmament of Germany through their fingers, despite the fact that the latter clearly and grossly violated the Versailles peace treaty. In fact, it was possible to say that the system of international treaties that existed until recently had already ceased to operate and gradually had to be replaced by something new. Thus, according to the Versailles Treaty, the German navy was strictly limited both qualitatively and quantitatively. But England, instead of (if necessary - by force) insisting on its observance, in fact unilaterally violated this very beneficial agreement for her, having concluded with the Hitler 18 July 1935 the Anglo-German Maritime Agreement, according to which Germany was allowed to build a fleet of in 35% of British. In October, 1935 Mr. Mussolini launched an invasion of Abyssinia, and, again, the League of Nations did not find the tool to prevent bloodshed.

The political situation of the USSR at that time was extremely difficult. Obviously, to ensure peace in Europe and the security of the Land of the Soviets, a new system of international treaties was needed in which the USSR would participate on an equal basis with the rest of the powers, but the threat that Japan represented in the Far East could hardly be countered by what by treaties, only by military force. But in Europe they looked at the USSR with distrust and apprehension. They eagerly traded with him, as the Country of Soviets supplied the bread needed in Europe and regularly paid its obligations, but the USSR remained in political isolation: it was simply not perceived as an equal, no one considered its opinion. A good example of such an attitude was the Franco-Soviet Mutual Assistance Pact, which was very good if we consider it as a declaration of intent. But in order to be of practical importance, this pact should have had an addition, in which the actions of the parties would be concrete if France or the USSR were subjected to an unprovoked attack by a European power. Contrary to the wishes of the USSR, this supplementary agreement was never signed.

In order to declare itself as a strong player in the European arena, the USSR needed to somehow demonstrate its strength, and such an attempt was made: this is about the famous Great Kiev 1935 maneuvers.



Much has been said and said that these maneuvers were thoroughly ostentatious, and had no practical significance, but even in this form revealed many shortcomings in the preparation of the Red Army at all levels. This is of course so. But, in addition to the military, they also had political significance, which should be discussed in more detail.

The fact is that in 1935, the strongest army in Europe was obviously considered the French. At the same time, the concept of its use was purely defensive. France suffered huge losses in the offensive operations of the First World War, and its military leadership believed that defense in future wars would take precedence over the offensive, which should be taken only when the enemy squandered his forces in unsuccessful attempts to break through the French defenses.

At the same time, the Soviet maneuvers of 1935 were supposed to demonstrate to the world a completely different concept of warfare, namely, the theory of deep operation. The “external” essence of maneuvers was to demonstrate the ability of troops saturated with modern military equipment to penetrate enemy defenses, and then, with mechanized and cavalry units, supported by airborne assault forces, to encircle and destroy the enemy. Thus, the Kiev maneuvers “as if hinted” not only at the gigantic military power of the USSR (more than 65 were involved in exercises for 1 thousand personnel of the participating troops tanks and 600 aircraft), but also on a new strategy for the use of ground forces, which leaves far behind the views of the "first European army." In theory, the world should have shuddered when it saw the power and perfection of the army of the Soviet Union, and the leadership of European countries had to seriously think about the benefits of allied relations with the new military giant ...

Alas, in practice, the Kiev maneuvers did not entail anything like that. It cannot be said that they turned out to be underestimated by the military specialists of that era - although today we speak of them as a window dressing, but in terms of the impact on the foreign attaches of window dressing, it was completely successful. Thus, for example, French General L. Loiseau, who was present at the exercises personally, noted: “With regard to tanks, I would consider it correct to consider the army of the Soviet Union in the first place.” Nevertheless, there were no noticeable changes in the position of the USSR in the political arena of the world - it still remained the “political pariah” that it was before.

All this could well lead the leadership of the USSR and I.V. Stalin suggested that even the most advanced ground and air forces would not give him the necessary political preferences and would not help him to integrate into the new system of international security in positions acceptable to the USSR. Of course, they were extremely important to ensure the security of the country in the event of a war, but they were not an instrument of big politics.

But the mighty "Big Fleet" could well become a similar tool. Soviet tanks and aircraft were still too far away from England, Japan and France, but the fleet was a completely different matter. All story humanity irrefutably testified that the powerful fleet was a gigantic political advantage of the country that has it; no one could ignore such a country in big politics.



In other words, it is very easy to admit that the “Big Fleet” I.V. Stalin needed not at all because of some personal preferences, but as an instrument of foreign policy, designed to provide the USSR with a worthy place in the world, and make it a full participant in international agreements. This assumption well explains a number of absurdities that accompanied the process of creating the shipbuilding program of the “Big Fleet”.

For example, the former People's Commissar of the Navy, Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union N.G. Kuznetsov, in his memoirs, argued that the construction program for the Big Fleet "was adopted hastily, without sufficient substantiation from the operational point of view, as well as from the point of view of technical capabilities." We will talk about technical capabilities a bit later, but for now let's pay attention to the “operational point of view” - and again, let us recall the words of Admiral N.G. Kuznetsova:

“There were no clearly defined fleet tasks. Oddly enough, I could not achieve this either in the Defense Commissariat, or in the Government. The General Staff referred to its lack of government directives on this issue, and Stalin personally laughed out or expressed very general assumptions. I realized that he did not want to ordain me to the "holy of holies," and did not consider it convenient to pursue this more persistently. When there was talk of a future fleet in one or another of the theaters, he looked at the map of the sea and only asked questions about the possibilities of the future fleet, without revealing details of his intentions. ”


So, it is quite possible to assume that there was in fact no “holy of holies”: if I.V. Stalin needed the fleet as a political tool, then he could not, of course, tell his naval commanders something like: "I need a fleet not for war, but for politics." It was much easier (and politically more correct) to gather the most responsible and competent people in the construction of the fleet, which V.M. Orlov and I.M. Ludri, and to work with them in the style: “We need a linear fleet of just about the size, and you, comrades, think of why we need it, and quickly.”

And if this was the way the author of this article suggests, it becomes quite understandable, for example, a very strange concept of using the linear forces of the USSR Navy, which appeared just about that time. If in almost all the navies of the world at that time, battleships were considered the main force of the fleet, and the remaining ships, in fact, ensured their combat use, then in the USSR everything was exactly the opposite. Light ships were considered the main striking force of the fleet, capable of crushing enemy squadrons by applying a concentrated or combined strike on them, and the battleships had only to ensure the action of light forces and give them sufficient combat stability.

Such views look extremely strange. But if we assume that the leadership of the RKKF simply received instructions to quickly justify the need to build battleships, then what options could they have? Only quickly integrate the use of battleships into the tactical calculations that existed at that time, which, in fact, was done: the concept of a small naval war was "strengthened" by the battleships. In other words, all this does not look like the evolution of views on naval art, but an urgent need to justify the usefulness of heavy ships in the fleet.

So, we see that the construction program of the “Big Fleet” could have been dictated by political necessity, but how timely was it and was realizable in the USSR? Today we know that no matter what: the level of development of the shipbuilding, armor, artillery and so on. enterprises and industries are not allowed to proceed with the creation of powerful fleets. However, in 1935, it all looked completely different.

Let's not forget that the planned economy then took, in general, only the first steps, while the role of the enthusiasm of the workers and employees was excessively exaggerated. As you know, the first and second five-year plans led to a multiple increase in the production of the most important products, such as steel, cast iron, electricity, etc., and for complex industrial products, such as automobiles or metal-cutting machines, growth was achieved even times, but by orders of magnitude. In 1935, of course, the second five-year plan was not over yet, but it was still obvious that the industrialization of the country was carried out very successfully and at a very high rate. All this, naturally, gave rise to a certain "dizziness from success" and overestimated expectations from the development of the domestic industry for the next 7-10 years. Thus, the country's leadership had certain grounds to assume that the further development of the industry at an accelerated pace would make it possible to carry out the construction of the “Big Fleet” in a relatively short time, although, alas, these assumptions were incorrect.

At the same time, in 1935, the military industry of the USSR in terms of production capacity for the land army and air forces reached acceptable indicators sufficient to provide the Red Army with military equipment. The Kirov and Kharkov factories launched a stable production of the main models of battle tanks: T-26, T-28 and BT-5 / 7, while the total production of armored vehicles reached its peak in 1936, later declined: so, in 1935 g it was produced 3 055 tank, 1936 g - 4 804, but in 1937-38 gg. 1559 and 2 271 tank, respectively. As for the aircraft, in the 1935 only the I-15 and I-16 fighters were released 819 machines. This is a very large value, considering that, for example, the Italian Air Force in 1935 had 2 100 aircraft, including those that were in training units, and the number of Luftwaffe even in 1938 g was less than 3 000 aircraft. In other words, the situation with the production of basic types of military equipment in the USSR looked so that it, this production, reached the desired level and did not require significant further expansion - thus further development of the industry could be oriented to something else. So why not to the fleet?



Thus, we conclude that for the construction of the “Big Fleet” by 1936, according to the country's leadership, there were all the necessary prerequisites: it was needed as a political tool to increase the influence of the USSR in the world, and it was assumed that its construction by the forces of Soviet industry is not to the detriment of the army and air force At the same time, the “Big Fleet” did not become the result of the development of Russian naval thought, but was to a certain extent “lowered to the fleet from above,” which, in fact, later arose on the assumption that this fleet was only a consequence of whims I.V. Stalin.

The approval of the construction plan of the “Big Fleet”, of course, went through several iterations. The first of them can be considered the report №12ss, addressed to the USSR People's Commissar of Defense K.E. Voroshilov and Chief of the General Staff of the Red Army A.I. Yegorov, signed by the head of the Naval Forces of the Red Army V.M. Orlova. According to this document, it was planned to build 12 battleships, 2 aircraft carriers, 26 heavy and 20 light cruisers, 20 leaders, 155 destroyers and 438 submarines, while VM. Orlov assumed that this program could well be implemented in just 8-10 years.

This program was amended by the USSR People's Commissariat of Defense: it has not yet been approved, but it has already been adopted as a guide to action, which was expressed in the 27 adopted by 1936 on April 95 of the STO Resolution No. OK-1936ss "On the program of marine shipbuilding for 27." envisaged an increase in the construction of warships compared with the previous program. At the same time, the program continued to be adjusted: 1936 in May 8. STO adopted a resolution on the construction of 35 large battleships of type “A”, 000 displacement 9 tons with 406 * 24-mm guns and 26 - small type “B” displacements 000 9 tons and the main caliber of 305 * 7-mm guns, and they were supposed to be built in just XNUMX (!) years.

And finally, once again the adjusted program is reviewed by the Political Bureau of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) and finally approved by a closed decision of the Council of People's Commissars (SNK) of 26 June 1936. According to the approved program during 1937-1943. 8 type A battleships, type B battleships, 16 light cruisers, 20 leaders, 17 squadron destroyers, 128 large, 90 medium and 164 small submarines with a total displacement of 90 1 thousand tons should have been built.

Perhaps, a respected reader will have a question - why, wanting to consider the state of the pre-war shipbuilding of the USSR, we spend so much time on the shipbuilding program on 1937-1943? After all, many other documents were created after it: “Construction plan for warships of the Naval Forces of the Red Army”, developed in 1937, “Construction program for combat and auxiliary ships on 1938-1945”, “10-year plan for the construction of ships RKKF” 1939, etc.

The answer is very simple. Despite the fact that the above documents were usually considered by the Politburo and the Defense Committee of the USSR SNK, not one of them was approved. This, of course, did not mean that they were completely useless waste paper, but they were not an official document defining the construction of the USSR Navy either. In essence, the naval shipbuilding program adopted in 1936 on the 1937-1943. It became a fleet program document right up to 1940 itself, when the shipbuilding plan for the 3 Five-Year Plan was approved. In other words, global projects to create a super-powerful military fleet with a total displacement of 1,9, and even 2,5 million tons were never officially approved, although they were approved by I.V. Stalin.

The shipbuilding program of the “Big Fleet”, approved in 1936, represents the point from which it is worth considering what was planned to be built and what was actually ordered for construction.

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  1. +3
    April 16 2019 06: 21
    I love our plans a lot!
    1. 0
      April 16 2019 11: 11
      Who could have foreseen the events of May-June 1940.
  2. +8
    April 16 2019 06: 41
    Here, in my opinion, the main thing to see is why manners for such ambitious plans became possible ...
    INDUSTRIALIZATION! fellow
    For its time, the country has made a huge leap in its development, the fruits of which we use to this day.
    Therefore, the emergence of powerful metallurgical enterprises made possible the hypothetical creation of a powerful fleet.
    All the same, socialism is a great force if brains stand at the helm Yes winked ......
    Plus article hi
  3. +2
    April 16 2019 08: 25
    The author, as always, is a plus.
    Yes, there was then something to "dizzy" heads and ambitions often prevailed over reason, but it is not for us to judge, and even more so not from the standpoint of the present time. We need cold analytics and, in my opinion, the author is quite successful in this.
    Always amazed by the "huge plans" of the 30s and the government's efforts to train personnel, such as massive parachutism (free of charge, of course), flying clubs, shooting circles, etc., which undoubtedly bore fruit in the near future.
  4. 0
    April 16 2019 09: 39
    Battleships built against the English fleet. And the Germans actively supported this Soviet program. Krupp set up several gun turrets.
    Only with the consent of the Germans, the battleships could get out of the "trap" - the Baltic Sea.
    1. +3
      April 16 2019 11: 15
      Quote: voyaka uh
      Battleships built against the English fleet. And the Germans actively supported this Soviet program. Krupp set up several gun turrets.

      Krupp did not set up towers - the first of them, even according to plan, was supposed to be ready only by the end of 1941.
      The issue of the main caliber of the KRT was resolved by signing in Moscow on November 30, 1940, an agreement with Krupp for the supply of six 380-mm two-gun turrets with ammunition. The terms of readiness of the towers for shipment to the USSR were determined in stages by the agreement: 1st tower - from October 5, 1941 to February 28, 1942; 2nd tower - from December 5, 1941 to March 31, 1942; 3rd tower - from February 5 to April 30, 1942; 4th tower - from May 5 to November 30, 1942; 5th tower - from August 5 to December 31, 1942; 6th tower - from November 5, 1942 to March 28, 1943; ammunition - in two batches: July 1, 1942 and February 1, 1943.
      The ammunition kit supplied under the contract included double (for barrel survivability - 240 shots) the number of rounds consisting of armor-piercing, semi-armor-piercing, high-explosive and practical shells, complete (with half-charge in the sleeve and without the shell) combat charges, charges for practical shells and reloading shots, as well as 127 mm ammunition for training trunks. Despite the timely payment by the Soviet side of advance payments (50 million marks) under this agreement, the German side was not in a hurry to fulfill its obligations, delaying even the delivery to the USSR of documentation on towers and ICPs necessary for the development of technical project 69I.
      © Vasiliev
      It is interesting - weren't these towers planned to be installed on "Gneisenau" during modernization? Because Krupp continued to manufacture them even after it became clear that the original customer would not get them.
      Quote: voyaka uh
      Only with the consent of the Germans, the battleships could get out of the "trap" - the Baltic Sea.

      Only with the consent of the British could the battleships escape from the "trap" - the North Sea. smile
      1. -5
        April 16 2019 11: 37
        "battleships could get out of the" trap "- the North Sea." ////
        ----
        It's right. But they were built to break through, to fight. Hitler for some time had hopes in common with the USSR to hammer England. But Stalin was diplomatically evasive, and the whole thing was ruined by Molotov in Berlin in 1940. He was blunt, and in diplomacy - not a boom-boom. In my opinion, it was on Molotov that the blame for the start of the Second World War in 1941. It would have started anyway, but after 2-3 years ...
        1. +5
          April 16 2019 13: 16
          Quote: voyaka uh
          For some time Hitler had hoped, jointly with the USSR, to hammer England.

          It never happened
          Quote: voyaka uh
          and the whole thing spoiled Molotov in Berlin in 1940. He was stupid, and in diplomacy - not a boom-boom.

          laughing good But Winston Spesser Churchill considered him one of the best diplomats of the world of all time, who was in no way inferior to Talleyrand
          1. -4
            April 16 2019 13: 22
            Read, do not be lazy, the protocols of negotiations between Molotov and Ribbentrop in Berlin. They are published online. Molotov was as straightforward as an ax. And he was sent only to "probe" Hitler's position, and not to put forward demands. And he also dropped stupid jokes (indirectly, to Hitler).
            When Hitler expelled Molotov, he received a hat from Stalin. Stalin sent telegrams to Hitler about reconciliation: "We were misunderstood ..."
            But it was too late.
            1. -1
              April 16 2019 14: 56
              he was sent only to "probe" Hitler's position, and not to put forward demands

              But what about Stalin's Balkan adventure at the end of the 40s? (Sobolev's action in Bulgaria) Give him the Straits! (war with Turkey) After which Hitler finally decided not to delay with the "ally"
            2. 0
              April 16 2019 16: 03
              You are simply interpreting these negotiations extremely freely :))
              1. -1
                April 16 2019 16: 15
                1) The negotiations were cut short abruptly. Molotov returned to Moscow immediately.
                Although the vast trade delegation of the USSR (ministers, generals) still continued to work in Berlin.
                2) According to testimonies, Hitler was furious. He said (roughly):
                "Do they want so much? They'll get it from us."
                3) Hitler did not respond to Stalin's conciliatory telegram.
                In my opinion, if not for this incident between the foreign ministers,
                then the attack on the USSR happened much later than 41 years. hi
                1. +2
                  April 16 2019 17: 16
                  There is such a source, R. Schmidt. Statist auf diplomatischer Buhne. 1923 — 1945. Bonn. 1953 Notes by Ribbentrop’s Personal Translator. Translation can be read here http://doc20vek.ru/node/1398
                  And everything you write
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  Negotiations were cut short

                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  about the testimony of those close to him, Hitler was furious. He said (approximately):
                  "Do they want so much? They'll get it from us."

                  Molotov has nothing to do with professionalism. In essence, the negotiations should have clarified the position of Germany on a number of urgent issues, and Stalin was not at all ready to accept the role of a junior and voiceless partner. He did not consider it possible to speak with Germany otherwise than on equal and Molotov did it. At the same time, Hitler was extremely indignant at the fact that the USSR was trying to express an opinion that was contrary to its position.
                  That's all
        2. +5
          April 16 2019 13: 57
          Quote: voyaka uh
          In my opinion, it was on Molotov that the blame for the start of the Second World War in 1941. It would have started anyway, but after 2-3 of the year ...

          Well, just like that right away - Molotov is to blame for everything ....
          People’s Commissar Molotov (real name is Scriabin) Vyacheslav Mikhailovich - First Deputy Chairman of the Council of People’s Commissars, who replaced Comrade Litvinov Maxim Maximovich for this post, was an old party apparatchik, without any deviations or deviations, or preferences, which were observed in the same Maxim-Maksimich .
          The change of commissars took place in May of the 1939, and thus the USSR, in the form of its leadership, made it clear that it did not intend to accept the arguments of one of the parties in the unfolding European (then) war closer than it might have seemed.
          In November 1940, during the visit of Molotov V.M. to Berlin, Hitler directly invited the USSR to participate in the Tripartite Pact, as realized that England could not be defeated by bombing or naval blockade. Those. as written in the Foreign Ministry publication “Documents of Soviet Foreign Policy”, Hitler explicitly suggested that the USSR openly join the front against the Anglo-Saxons and the United States under the Covenant of Three (Germany, Italy and Japan). It says in the fiberboard: "He, Hitler, is inviting the Soviet Union to participate as the fourth partner in this Covenant." The piquancy of the situation was that the "Pact of Three" by Soviet historians called the "Anti-Comintern Pact", claiming that it was against Russia. And the USSR did everything in its power to be neutral in this showdown of super-Europeans.
          Along the way, Hitler in every possible way showed his love for England, declaring a possible "strategic partnership" of two, in his opinion, Nordic peoples.
          Under no circumstances could the USSR agree to an alliance with Hitler's Germany - this was contrary to the spirit of the Comintern. And in "Mein Kampf" the future Fuhrer clearly indicated in which direction the Third Reich should expand.
          Thus, Hitler, if not cunning, then put a "fork" - "Who is not with us, is against us."
          And you have to be completely crazy to believe that after the victory over England, Germany would leave the USSR alone. And in this case there would be no "2 fronts", no Lend-Lease, no recognition of Germany as the aggressor, and the USSR as the victim, since both Churchill and Hitler hated "Bolshevism" alike.
          The participation of the USSR in the World War was inevitable. And participation in the Pact of Three would finally put an end to the USSR as an independent subject of international law. The Brest-Litovsk peace against the backdrop of an alliance with Germany, Italy and Japan in the war against England and the United States looks like petty prank.
          1. -2
            April 16 2019 14: 19
            You read the minutes of the Berlin talks. Someone said, suggested wink
            1. +4
              April 16 2019 16: 32
              Quote: voyaka uh
              You read the minutes of the Berlin talks.

              Read, dear, read ....
              Tokma should be read not excerpts with banknotes "from the net", but documents that were printed on paper at that time.
              There is a difference (discrepancies) between the Foreign Ministry's DVP and those "protocols" that remained in the Chancellery of the Reich Chancellor. But these are the costs of diplomacy of the Soviet period, since they were published in the early 90s, and the IschO were prepared under Soviet rule ...
              And the meaning of these diplomatic notes is that Hitler is portrayed as a kind of visionary, a prophet of the coming to power and world domination of the United States with satellites. For the USSR, this was a question of a sheet of paper between two scissor blades. And in this light, to blame the political leadership of the USSR for allegedly not delaying the beginning of World War II on the 2-3 of the year - a complete misunderstanding of what was happening at the end of the 1940, since this would not be the Great Patriotic War, but the clash of two former allies under the Covenant, count the military unit. And the whole civilized world could only sit down with popcorn at the radio and listen to ABC, CNN and other radio stations telling about the bloody fight between the USSR and Germany in the West and Japan in the East. And it is not a fact that the United States did not find a loophole for semi-official lend-lease for the Germans.
              Comrade Kremlin in his writings on "Stalin's mistake" in November 1940 only strengthened the negative background created around his name in connection with the unsuccessful start of the Great Patriotic War and its course as a whole. It is based on "good suffering" for the millions of dead citizens of the USSR who "supposedly could have been avoided."
              The USSR did not in any way fit into the then existing world order in connection with the advancement of the ideas of communism and equality into the world. Not the kind of equality that is interpreted today in the civilized West (Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité), which over time has degenerated into a strange "selective tolerance". This was a punishment for a country that chose a different path of development.
              And today, Russia is experiencing the same difficulties in understanding its aspirations and needs. And it would seem - but what is wrong? Communist ideas were abandoned, we are stubbornly building a developed capitalism, but experiencing the same problems that 80 years ago?
              Your former secret service worker correctly said that Russians today are Jews of the XNUMXst century. The same attempt to rid the land of a hated ethnos "hindering the life of exclusive nations."
              Or do you think that the Big Game ended with the end of the Cold War, and geopolitics is the false science of today?
              1. -1
                April 16 2019 16: 44
                "Read, dear, read ...." ////
                ----
                From your post it is clearly visible that they did not read, alas. sad There is a rigid concise specificity, and not general reasoning.
                And I can also sing long songs about geopolitics without stopping.
                We exchanged views, thanks!
                1. +3
                  April 16 2019 16: 47
                  And you don’t get sick ...
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  And I can also sing long songs about geopolitics without stopping.

                  You sing them from the first day on the site, including the subject of the debate "Who is smarter than everyone else?"
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  It is clear from your post that you have not read it, alas. There are strict, laconic specifics there, and not general reasoning.

                  The answer is the paragraph above ...
                  wink
                  Although I used to quote ... And then everything is in the spirit of "I have not read, but I condemn" ...
                  lol
                  1. 0
                    April 17 2019 22: 34
                    Quote: stalkerwalker
                    voyaka uh

                    everything was fine, until you both slid down to discuss each other. (both).
                    it's a pity. In fact, the interpretation of these negotiations is just an important milestone in the relationship, and many authors cite them as the wishes of the USSR (specifically the IVS) and Molotov, who carried out what he was sent for.
                    And I read from some Russian authors precisely this position that Stalin demanded a lot from Hitler, and that such requirements infuriated and strengthened the belief that the ally would not miss to take advantage of any situation.
                    Therefore, it was interesting for me to follow your dialogue ... until then, until you began to fall on personalities.
                    1. 0
                      April 18 2019 14: 04
                      Quote: Antares
                      reinforced in the opinion that ally н

                      but this is the key word ... bully
    2. +2
      April 16 2019 19: 14
      Plant 402, Molotovsk, now Severodvinsk (Northern Sea Route), was already operating. Let me remind you that it is located on the White Sea, an inland sea of ​​the USSR. The annual program after completion of construction is 1 battleship, 2 leaders and 6 destroyers per year. Before 1941, 2 battleships were laid down there (1 was stopped during construction when the program was cut) and 6 destroyers. Of course, in 1941 the plant was not completely ready (the turret shop and mechanical (turbine) workshops were still under construction). The plant's layout included the possibility of constructing another building for 2 covered horizontal slipways-slipways, which had an exit to the same filling pool.
      1. 0
        April 17 2019 11: 55
        Quote: Potter
        Until 1941 2 battleships were laid on it (1 was stopped by construction when the program was cut)

        Evil tongues slander that "Sovetskaya Belorussia" was dismantled not at all because of the reduction of the program, but because of the mass riveting marriage.
        Earlier than all, a sad fate befell the Soviet Byelorussia battleship under construction in Molotovsk. In 1940, when 2648 tons of metal were already put on the ship, and another 1206 tons were processed and docked, it turned out that due to the low qualifications of the workers, “mass riveting marriage” was allowed: up to 70 thousand delivered rivets were completed from unspecified steel (much lower quality than required). All work on the formation of the hull of this ship had to be suspended with a technical readiness of 2,57%.
        © Vasiliev
        Quote: Potter
        Of course, in 1941 the plant was not completely ready (the tower workshop and mechanical (turbine) workshops were still under construction).

        If you take the money, then at the beginning of the war about half of the funds allocated for the construction of the plant were spent.
  5. -1
    April 16 2019 10: 21
    Aircraft carriers were planned to solve auxiliary tasks, even after the successful exercises of 1937-1938, conducted by the Yankees. The verdict - they cannot defeat aircraft in conditions when the main and fundamental means of fighting at sea is the battleship and its huge guns.
    Therefore, the view of Soviet admirals on aircraft carriers as purely auxiliary ships is quite understandable. Everything changed after the Japanese carrier-based aviation attack on Hawaii on December 7, 1941. Well, the battle in the Coral Sea and a number of other operations DEFINITELY showed who is "the boss in the ocean" ...
    And yet, the "Talin crossing" showed what the lack of minesweepers can lead to.
    1. +6
      April 16 2019 11: 54
      Quote: knn54
      The aircraft carriers planned to solve auxiliary problems, even after the successful exercises of 1937 ... 1938 conducted by the Yankees. Verdict - planes can not defeat in conditions where the main and main means of fighting at sea is the battleship and its huge guns.

      Uh-huh ... in USN before the war, aircraft carriers were considered scouts and "counterintelligence". Their main task in the role of a scout was to detect the enemy squadron and aircraft carriers of the enemy, and in the role of counterintelligence - to destroy the enemy's AV leading the same reconnaissance (it is easier to burn a wasp nest than to chase each one). And only after the "blinding" of the enemy, the AV could help their LK in the battle with the enemy line. At the same time, it was believed that when a strike group reached a single enemy aircraft, it would be 100% hit, since there would not be enough AB's own fighters for its air defense. That is, AB were represented by the next "glass cannons", for which to strike first meant to win.
      EMNIP, wrote on Tsushima that the pre-war Fleet Problem exercises practiced building a squadron, when two ABs were advanced 50-100 miles ahead of the main forces and the third went with LC (thus 3 ABs formed a triangle with sides of 50-100 miles, facing the enemy of one of the parties).
      Quote: knn54
      And yet, the "Talin crossing" showed what the lack of minesweepers can lead to.

      Tallinn Transition Reveals What Shortage May Cause brains competent staff officers and unjustified haste. The minesweepers were "Izhorians" - their speed was quite enough to guide the transports, because they were too slow-moving for EM and KR. There were KATSCH. There were trawls (in the warehouses of the fleet). There were sweeping milestones (in the warehouses of the fleet). But while the right hand was looking for trawls and milestones, the left hand carefully destroyed the trawling property.
      The stake was placed on 53 minesweepers located in Tallinn. But the trouble is that about half of them - twenty-three - minesweepers, ten - basic minesweepers and twenty - slow-moving. There were no trawls on eighteen minesweeper boats. They failed during the previous trawlings, while the rest had one or two sets, and they were clearly not enough. At the same time, in the warehouses of the Main Base, subversive teams destroyed trawls and minesweepers that were transported from Kronstadt to Tallinn just before the war. Apparently, the tension of the last days of the struggle for the capital of Estonia, turmoil, fuzzy knowledge of the situation did not allow the KBF flagship miner, the mine and torpedo department of the fleet headquarters to use the available potential. Minesweepers could not even destroy floating mines - there were no small-caliber cannons.
      Original Russian Text © V.M. Yoltukhovsky. "Mine war in the Baltic, 1941".
      1. +1
        April 16 2019 13: 39
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Uh-huh ... in USN, before the war, aircraft carriers were considered scouts and "counterintelligence"

        As often happens, after the war there are large numbers of casanders who, 20 years before, said that strength in truth aircraft carriers. In addition to the famous Harry E. Yarnell, something similar is found in Carl Vinson.
        1. +3
          April 16 2019 16: 04
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          As often happens, after the war there are large numbers of casanders who, 20 years before, said that the force was in the truth of aircraft carriers. In addition to the famous Harry E. Yarnell, something similar is found in Carl Vinson.

          Well yes... ah, a training raid on the Panama Canal, ah, a training raid on Pearl Harbor (from the north) - you see, the Yankees even then believed that AB were the striking force of the fleet.
          And as it comes to naval exercises with the development of the battle of the main forces - so the "strike force of the fleet" is immediately expelled to the cruisers and is exclusively engaged in the destruction of their own kind and covering the line forces from enemy reconnaissance. And the outcome of the battle is decided by multi-turret slugs.
          EMNIP, on Tsushima, data were provided that the first practical drops of aircraft torpedoes, considered the main "anti-linkor" weapon, were carried out by US carriers only in 1940 (and they were quite surprised by the results, because the Mark 13 showed almost all its shortcomings). And in general, the US Navy frankly scored on torpedo bombers and aircraft torpedoes - in contrast to dive bombers (effective against AB). Even the Avenger had an excellent bombsight and a primitive torpedo sight.
          1. +2
            April 16 2019 16: 49
            Quote: Alexey RA
            You see, the Yankees even then believed that the AB are the strike force of the fleet.

            Yarnell believed that yes, Standley, Lehi and Sark - no. The generalized "Americans" are, unfortunately, Standley, Legie, and Sark. This is not an ABS for you, which also understood something in chests, but at the same time drowned 3 LK with 12, damn it, planes.
            And what!
            Quote: Alexey RA
            and many were surprised by the results, because Mark 13 showed almost all of its flaws

            Torpedoes are just a song about the US Navy. If we take the situation with torpedoes as the USN level, then all questions disappear))). And about PX air defense, and about the attacks of ships from B-17, and about the midway banzai attacks (especially 4 B-26 touches), and about the iron bottom - and why not, really.
            1. +2
              April 16 2019 18: 23
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              This is not ABS for you, which also understood something in the chests, but at the same time drowned 3 LCs on the 12th, damn it, by airplanes.
              And what!

              EMNIMS, RN's aircraft carriers were initially focused not only on reconnaissance, but also on helping their LK before a linear battle. Their task was to "bring down the speed" of the enemy LK, so that all kinds of "Nelsons", "Eras" and the "Queen" that became sluggish could catch up with them. So the line fleet RN was initially forced to interact with AB precisely in terms of battleships' battle, and the "line commanders" had an idea of ​​what the AB was capable of in combat.

              Another thing is that this good theory was multiplied to zero by the technique: in one of the battles the "string bags" with torpedoes flying against a strong wind did not catch up with the Italian LK, and in another the "Albakors", also flying against the wind, could not enter the attack normally on " Tirpitz ".
              ... the maximum speed of the Albacores was only 155 knots, and the Tirpitz was traveling at a speed of 29 knots almost against the wind of 35 knots. Therefore, the best that Lucas could hope for was an intercept speed of about 95 knots. This meant that no less than half an hour would pass before the aircraft reached the attack position. These half an hour had to be spent in the clouds, fighting icing. In addition, fighters from Norwegian airfields could appear at any moment. In fact, the convergence speed turned out to be no more than 40 knots, since the Albacors were heavily loaded and tried to gain altitude.

              The approach speed of the aircraft with the battleship leaving it is 40 knots. This is not an air raid, but some kind of attack by torpedo boats. belay
              1. +1
                April 16 2019 18: 37
                Quote: Alexey RA
                This is not an air raid, but some kind of torpedo boat attack

                The Japanese, of course, would not really understand the attack of the LK by the 12th torpedo bombers * and the losses in the battle with catapult aircraft, but, nevertheless, caught up and recovered, even at that time.
                So they multiplied, of course, but not so much by zero.

                * And here is the 17th without cover of norms, the raid on Bougainville, the battle of O'Hara.
            2. +1
              April 16 2019 19: 17
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Torpedoes are just a song about the US Navy. If we take the situation with torpedoes as the USN level, then all questions disappear))).

              Pfff ... you still remember about BZZ. The same "Lady Lex" and "Yorktown" died due to the actions of their own teams. Moreover, "Lex" drowned in general due to some enchanting confluence of violations of instructions and careless actions: first, the instruction "to keep the water tanks around the fuel tanks empty" was violated (the tanks filled with water transmitted the blow from the explosion of the torpedo to the tank with aviation fuel), and then RepDiv left in the work of a power electrician in the rooms adjacent to the leaked tank, but at the same time took off the watch from there due to the failure of ventilation. The end is a bit predictable. ©
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              And about PX air defense, and about the attacks of ships from B-17, and about the midway banzai attacks (especially 4 B-26 touches), and about the iron bottom - and why not, really.

              Midway B-26s are still flowers. On the Aleuts, the commander of the crew of one of the B-26, George Thornborough, having heard about the problems with torpedoes, decided to drop it like a bomb so that it would not have time to sink or go off course. ICH, it hit the AV Ryujo's deck - but the torpedo didn't explode.
              And B-17 was simply used against ships not as planned before the war. In the anti-ship role, the B-17 squadron was supposed to go to the warrant of ships at low altitude and, on the command of the leader, plant the sea with bombs, hoping for statistics. And do not try to aimly bomb from great heights.
              How to use B-17 against ships was shown by the crew of Kenneth McCullar, who in November 1942 drowned the Japanese destroyer Hayashio (after making five approaches to the target, three of them were top-masted, at a height of 200 feet). smile
              1. +2
                April 17 2019 01: 31
                Quote: Alexey RA
                The same "Lady Lex" and "Yorktown" died due to the actions of their own teams

                Well, the Japanese still helped them somewhat. In York, the BZZh did quite well, they lost, in general, on a penalty, so to speak. Tanabe Yahachi scored twice (and the third torpedo carried the goalkeeper).
                Quote: Alexey RA
                ICH, it hit the AV Ryujo's deck - but the torpedo didn't explode.

                They write different things. It seems like she could not explode - without starting the engine warhead is not cocked.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                How to use B-17 against ships showed the crew of Kenneth McCullar

                And why, in fact, was shown by the crew of Kenneth McCullard, and not by the British in Wilhelmshaven on September 4, the 39th, as it would seem? And why, for the sake of strategist, is it used as a top-pick?
                The Japanese, it seems to me, spoke very (not) approvingly about Fortress and especially the Liberator. I’ll save anyone, they write, there wasn’t any from them. We would be so angry, they write,

                distant scouts.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Midway B-26 - these are still flowers.

                It's not the B-26s themselves with their problems that impress me. The war has been going on for six months (or even five), the Americans are paranoid about the Japanese landing, Alpha Strike has already flown to them - and in the PX, it turns out, neither the army nor the navy (since Nimitz commands the entire theater of operations) still don't understand what naval strike aviation is. In particular, for some reason they don't know such a basic fact that aviation is pilots, not planes. I don't remember Kesselring in the Mediterranean in 5 staging such tricks as attacking the enemy with a formation of 42 medium bombers and 4 torpedo bombers, with the help of some incomprehensible people who accidentally walked into this disco.
                1. 0
                  April 17 2019 19: 09
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  And why, in fact, was shown by the crew of Kenneth McCullard, and not by the British in Wilhelmshaven on September 4, the 39th, as it would seem? And why, for the sake of strategist, is it used as a top-pick?

                  So the "fortress" was planned to be used not only against land, but also against sea targets. But reality refused to coincide with the theoretical calculations: at medium altitudes, the percentage of hitting real targets did not compensate for the chances of being shot down by the fire of the ZA and fighters. Going to high heights increased survival - and reduced the hit rate to almost zero. Therefore, when a result was needed, the most desperate crews of the "fortresses" worked with PMA - the threat from the ZA remained, but the target was almost guaranteed to be hit.
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  The Japanese, it seems to me, spoke very (not) approvingly about Fortress and especially the Liberator. I’ll save anyone, they write, there wasn’t any from them. We would be so angry, they write,

                  Because in a raid on the boss you need to go in a coordinated team (and with communication). And do not throw at the sight of the boss in a single attack in style Leeirooy Jenkins!. smile
                  Uncoordinated attacks of single fighters - this is exactly what the B-17 and B-24 were able to repel best.
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  I don’t remember that Kesselring in the Middle East in the 42nd year arranged such tricks as an enemy attack with a combination of 4 medium bombers and 6 torpedo bombers, by forces of some obscure people who accidentally entered this disco.

                  It’s hard not to agree. In general, when looking at the USAAF army torpedo bombers, IJA with its army submarines and aircraft carriers is immediately remembered.
                  1. +1
                    April 17 2019 19: 32
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    In general, when I look at the USAAF army torpedo bombers for some reason IJA is immediately remembered

                    Yes? And here I am the American coastal drums, God forgive me, the maintenance aircraft in the form of B-17 and B-26 are more reminiscent of the activities of the 41-year DBA.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    Uncoordinated single fighter attacks

                    They pressed more on range and combat stability.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    That's just reality refused to coincide with theoretical calculations

                    Coincided in one nuance. To defeat point targets, the strategist needs controllers. When they appeared, things went smoothly.
  6. +3
    April 16 2019 10: 39
    "... the new shipbuilding program aimed at building the Big Fleet, which was based on heavy artillery ships - battleships. Why did this happen?"
    In my opinion, a very succinct and correct answer to this question was given by the famous English author Richard Humble in his book Battleships and Battlecruisers: “The dreadnought battleship was the direct historical predecessor of the atomic bomb, a symbol of the highest military status of a power, the most powerful and mobile instrument of power politics that the world has ever known. Any state in the world that aspired to full participation in world affairs required battleships and heavy cruisers.”
    The USSR claimed full participation in world affairs. The era of nuclear diplomacy has not yet arrived, the era of gunboat diplomacy was in its prime. Therefore, built battleships.
  7. +3
    April 16 2019 11: 02
    In fact, looking at the shipbuilding of the USSR of those years, you can see a lot in common - the country also experienced problems literally at every step. Projects of warships, often, turned out to be suboptimal, or contained serious miscalculations, the industry did not have time to master the creation of the necessary units and equipment, and what still happened was often of poor quality. The terms of construction were regularly disrupted, ships were built extremely long, not only in comparison with the industrialized capitalist countries, but even in comparison with Tsarist Russia.
    You can also recall the order of mechanisms for new ships and submarines abroad - in Italy, Switzerland, France and even in the UK. And foreign (Italian) roots of the projects of our EM, KRL and even LK (the submarines had Italian and German roots too).
    1. -2
      April 16 2019 12: 28
      Quote: Alexey RA
      And foreign (Italian) project roots

      so dispersed their overseas .... request
    2. 0
      April 16 2019 13: 33
      Quote: Alexey RA
      You can also recall the order of mechanisms for new ships and submarines abroad

      As far as I remember, Comrade Brzezinski (another Brzezinski, but also, as it turned out, an enemy of the people) in 37 negotiated the construction of the battleship "Soviet Union" in the USA (that would be ironic). It seems that even Mr. Roosevelt personally took an interest in this matter.
      Not fused.
      1. +3
        April 16 2019 13: 54
        Not V.L. Brzezinski (he was already imprisoned), and I.S. Isakov. By 1939, the technical design of the battleship 45 T of a standard displacement of 000x9 mm guns of 406 hp was ready. 200 knots. Construction - one in the USA, the other in our Soviet Harbor at the shipyard, which was supposed to be built with the help of the USA. The signing of a nonaggression pact with Germany led to the cancellation of the agreements. The project was not handed over to us.
        1. +2
          April 16 2019 14: 34
          In the 39th Isakov, in the 37th Brzezinski.

          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          The project was not handed over to us.

          There was no ready-made project, NJA. So, talk on the topic.
          1. +1
            April 16 2019 14: 44
            Yes, they, as always, offered us their unfinished development. Forerunner of the USS BB-61 "Iowa". Similarly, the Italians in 1937 offered us the UP-41 instead of the actual 48000 T battleship project with 406 mm artillery. This one is V.L. Brzezinski and stuck it in.
        2. +1
          April 16 2019 15: 12
          EMNIP, in addition to the LK, ours also wanted to buy destroyers in the USA - a project, documentation for components, mechanisms, weapons and SUAO + a series of ships as samples. But it did not grow together - Washington imposed a ban on the export of weapons systems "under 10 years old", so we flew past all new products, including the universal 5 "/ 38 with their SUAO, and could only get something" flash-decker-like ".
          1. +1
            April 16 2019 15: 32
            Quote: Alexey RA
            flew past all new products, including the universal 5 "/ 38 s their SUAO

            It seems that someone needed a lip-filling machine.

            The Mark 1A dual purpose computer together with the 5 "/ 38 in single and twin mounts were deployed on almost every USN ship from destroyers through battleships and carriers by the end of the war.

            The Mark 1A is what made the 5 "/ 38 the most successful dual-purpose gun of the war as it gave those guns true anti-aircraft capability. No other nation came close to developing the computer-gun combination so well.

            It's about Ford Mark 1A Fire Control Computer. 5/38 itself is a very mediocre product.
            1. +1
              April 16 2019 16: 16
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              5/38 itself is a very mediocre product.

              Without a working SUAO, 5 "/ 38 is suitable for only one thing - firing horizontal bombers at high altitude.
              © From the report of the commander of the AV Enterprise on battles in the Solomon Islands region
      2. 0
        April 16 2019 16: 04
        In this case, did not grow together solely because of the reluctance of Americans
        1. +2
          April 16 2019 16: 56
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          In this case, did not grow together solely because of the reluctance of Americans

          Mr. Roosevelt, I remember, was eyeing the topic of building the LC at Soviet expense, and giving it away somehow after the war.
          Then, as I understand it, it dawned on him that already approved by Congress for the construction of the LC, he has much more than shipyards.
          1. 0
            April 16 2019 17: 18
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Then, as I understand it, it dawned on him that already approved by Congress for the construction of the LC, he has much more than shipyards.

            this was not the point, but the panic fear of the Americans to transfer to us some modern technology. That is, they were ready to build us a battleship, but at the level of "Maryland" - that is, yesterday at the end of the 30s
            1. +2
              April 16 2019 17: 34
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              that is, yesterday at the end of the 30s

              Let's say, Colorado with ups to the level of pre-war New Mexico - the machine is extremely serious. Much more serious than LC Arkhangelsk, not to mention LC Novorossiysk.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              and in a panicky fear of the Americans to transmit to us some modern technology

              Roosevelt already had a lot of questions about his foreign friends, even in the 30s.
              1. +1
                April 16 2019 17: 56
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Let's say so colorado with apami

                No ups :))) The US was terribly afraid that our technologies would be merging into Japan
            2. -2
              April 16 2019 17: 44
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              and in a panicky fear of the Americans to transmit to us some modern technology.

              from their side it was reasonable ... hi
              1. +3
                April 16 2019 18: 40
                Quote: ser56
                from their side it was reasonable ...

                God, what a fat trolling :))))) Can you tell us what modern technologies we got from the West were transferred / sold to Japan? :)))) Well, "Beauforces" there, German submarine projects, English turbines for "sevens" , documentation on imported units for battleships SovSoyuz and heavy cruisers Kronstadt? :))))
                1. +1
                  April 16 2019 18: 49
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  God, what a fat trolling

                  This answer appeared before the mention of Japan. It seemed to mean that selling the rope to the Soviet government was unreasonable. Ready to agree.
                2. -1
                  April 17 2019 11: 53
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  what we received from the West were transferred / sold to Japan ?:

                  Unlike us, the US knew that after the war they would fight with us... they have a long-term policy. bully
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  German submarine projects, English turbines

                  and where does the United States? But they didn’t deliver B-29 to us, just like a lot of other things, really high-tech!
                  1. +2
                    April 17 2019 17: 41
                    Quote: ser56
                    Unlike us, the United States knew that after the war they would fight with us ... they have a long-range policy .. bully

                    wassat Everything is strange and strange :))))) Tell me, by what comics did you study history? :))) Try reading about the vision of the post-war world order of Roosevelt at your leisure, I can vouch for, learn a lot of new
                    1. 0
                      April 17 2019 18: 16
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Try at your leisure to read about the vision of the post-war world order of Roosevelt, I guarantee, you will learn a lot for yourself

                      1) You don’t need to consider others dumber than you, this is usually not true - maybe you are broadcasting Agitprop’s mumbo jumbo without realizing it? bully
                      2) US foreign policy since the beginning of the 20th century is very consistent, a course towards world hegemony ...
                      3) And FDR is just one of the options, grandfather suffered from liberalism and messianism before his death, there was also Congress, more pragmatic... bully
          2. 0
            April 17 2019 16: 28
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Mr. Roosevelt, I remember, was eyeing the topic of building the LC at Soviet expense, and giving it away somehow after the war.

            I am afraid that the Soviet leadership also remembered well about Agincourt, Erin and Canada. And the Eagle to boot. smile
  8. 0
    April 16 2019 11: 36
    Good day, Andrey!
    All that is written is interesting, and even justified, but fundamentally wrong.
    Yes, I wanted to. Stalin built the USSR into the system of international relations in the first roles, an expensive party show was created, but this was not the main thing.
    The main thing was to educate the staff of the future Superpower. There was a tough bloody training for a new powerful organism that left the Russian Empire. To do this, it was supposed to take possession of the achievements of the advanced powers in the shortest possible time and overtake them at the next stage. This is exactly what Germany did in the second half of the XNUMXth century. What is surprising is that we managed to catch up in many ways, but to say my own word, and not my borrowed word, no.
    Now to the fleet. The battleships were hated by Trotsky and Tukhachevsky. It was Trotsky's singers who, instead of deep conservation, sent for scrap three of the four buildings of the Izmailov. Under the same story about the uselessness of battleships against the British fleet, the completion of "Nicholas I" and the restoration of "Poltava" were disrupted. So the positions of the supporters of the "small fleet", which actually doom the country to helplessness in front of any White Guard landing, looked reasonably suspicious and criticized by representatives of the old school.
    The first sign that shook the dominance of the "small fleet" theory was the construction of pocket battleships in Germany. then followed by the bookmark "Dunkerque". The Anglo-German naval agreement of 18.06.1935/XNUMX/XNUMX and the subsequent laying down of the battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau served as a magic pendal, which sharply accelerated research in the field of battleship building. It became clear. that all the advanced maritime powers are planning the construction of a new generation of ships, and if so, it was decided to take part in the battleship race, and taking into account the indisputable advantages of the socialist system and the state-planned economy - also to win it.
    Stalin's biggest personal omission in this matter is the lack of clear political will in determining what battleships are built for. If for a political demonstration, then their fighting qualities are secondary, if for a war, then they must clearly solve the tasks set for the theater of operations and not be "flag demonstrators." That is, you need to choose what we are building: "Vittorio Veneto" or "King George V".
    An attempt to combine both aspects leads to failure to achieve both goals.
    In other words, it should have been decided if we are building record-breaking battleships, then nothing but the caliber of the guns and speed, as well as the lines of construction should not worry us. The armor can be of poor quality, the base is not equipped, and the combat survivability is none. But he can be ready for the coronation celebrations of 1937 in Great Britain. In case of war, it can be used as a floating battery and air defense center.
    If we build ships for battle, on the contrary, they should not impress with dimensions and record speed, but should have sufficient armament, good protection, meet possible conditions for basing and repair, but the main thing is to match the capabilities of the shipbuilding industry (available slipways, docks, mastered steam parameters).
    In this case, something would still have to be recreated (artillery, communications). The crisis of armored production would have made it possible to look for possibilities of supplying armor for imports, but by 1941 such battleships (2 units under the Anglo-Soviet agreement of 1937) could be built.
    The trouble, and not the fault of our inexperienced designers, was that they tried to create the “best”, and not just a modern battleship. ”As practice has shown, a good school of personnel in sulobuilding did not work out.
    1. +2
      April 16 2019 15: 25
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Under the same story about the uselessness of battleships against the British fleet, the completion of "Nicholas I" and the restoration of "Poltava" were disrupted.

      The restoration of "Poltava" - "Frunze" was largely wrapped up by the efforts of the fleet itself. Having received a body in their tenacious hands, over which one can get scared with impunity, the naval officers showed all the riot of their imagination, drawing various LKR projects based on "Frunze" - wasting time and not taking into account the possibilities of industry and the budget.
      And these possibilities were such that the "big modernization" of the original "Sevastopol" was carried out only on one ship, and it was possible to carry it out only in the late 30s. And until the mid-30s, the maximum opportunity for the industry is to change the boilers to "Izmailov" ones and strengthen the reservation (from the armor reserves). They could not even increase the UVN of MB-3-12 - the Voroshilovskaya battery received the Poltava towers with their own UVNs and a limited firing range (they had to conduct a disinformation campaign, leaking information about 45 degrees of UVN to the Japanese).
      1. 0
        April 16 2019 15: 48
        Opportunities disappeared after the declarations of our "Red Napoleon" in 1921 after the suppression of the Kronstadt uprising that: "... battleships are not needed at all, they are useless against the British battleship, let a couple remain as floating batteries." (quoted from memory). With this submission, all work on the development of artillery ships was stopped and specialists from the old fleet were fired.
        And so - the restoration of the DAC on "Poltava" - not the binomial of Newton. The completion of "Nicholas I" is quite possible with the use of artillery, armor and mechanisms from "Empress Mary" and "Empress Catherine the Great". But funding was cut completely, specialists were partly fired, partly shot.
        Under budget constraints, all failures are always summed up. Just 15 years ago, anything could be revived here, but now - not by anyone.
        And the fact that the naval forces ruined both Ishmael and Poltava is a consequence, not a cause. By the way, a battle cruiser of the "Mikhail Frunze" type from "Izmail" turns out to be quite at the level of the "Kronstadt" tank destroyer without a single purchase abroad, except for Italian mechanisms.
        1. +3
          April 16 2019 16: 23
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          And so - the restoration of the DAC on "Poltava" - not the binomial of Newton.

          So the Navy does not need a stock "Sevastopol". smile
          The Navy wants in the worst case - "Parisian", and in the best - a 30-knot LKR. And the fleet really wants a 12 "armored coastal battery in Vladivostok (because the Japanese, when planning a war with the USSR, are seriously considering the landing in the Main Naval Forces of the Pacific Fleet), so two towers from" Poltava "leave for the Far East. And there are no other towers, and make them LMZ for now that cannot, and the Frunze with two towers stands while the sailors draw beautiful pictures.
          1. 0
            April 17 2019 18: 38
            Good afternoon, dear colleagues! It is unrealistic to turn Ishmael, and especially Sevastopol, into an adequate battleship for WWII. Only in a large but poor coastal defense battleship. But with the money for a battleship, you can save thousands of 45-mm anti-tank guns, each of which is very necessary. Alas, since 1854, Russian battleships are the most expensive method of infantry production in the world, and, as a rule, no more
            1. 0
              April 17 2019 19: 14
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              But with the money for a battleship, you can save thousands of 45-mm anti-tank guns, each of which is very necessary.

              And mediocre about ... to love them in 1941. As in real life, by the end of 1941, 12015 anti-tank vehicles out of 14900 available as of 22.06.1941 were already discovered. Of these, 7766 were lost by September 01.09.1941, XNUMX.
              And most importantly - the new guns will still remain with the old shells:
              The report of E. Satel on February 11, 1942 "On the quality of domestic anti-tank shells" and the protocol of the conclusion of the commission for the study of the quality of domestic armor-piercing shells. I quote the commission’s conclusion: all Soviet-made 45-mm armor-piercing shells released before November 1941 were not able to penetrate the armored cemented plate of German tanks more than 18-23 mm thick at 400-500 m, or 30 mm at 150-200 m thick .
              © D. Shein
              1. 0
                April 18 2019 10: 00
                5000 is easier to love than 15000, and 25000 is harder than 15000. 100500 to fall may not work at all
                1. 0
                  April 18 2019 14: 53
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  5000 is easier to love than 15000, and 25000 harder than 15000.

                  Given the state of traction in the Red Army, 25 guns will be easier to fall in love with than 000 - some of them will simply remain in the RPM due to the lack of vehicles.
                  1. 0
                    April 19 2019 19: 08
                    45 mm PTs are best carried by horses, there are not many of them for them,
                    so about the lack of mechtyag past the cash register
          2. -1
            8 July 2020 20: 02
            There are two critical questions.
            and. The towers of Mary were really hopelessly lost? They were also raised in the 20s ...
            b. Could not Bizerta have returned the battleship? And the destroyers? Krylov, with his report, is a real enemy of the people - it was flooded with a nightingale that the Black Sea Noviks in a beert had rotted into rubbish. And in real life in the Navy of the USSR, Noviki reached the 50s .....
  9. -1
    April 16 2019 12: 26
    Bravo to the author for raising an important and very slippery topic ... bully
    I critically note that
    "already in 1936 the USSR, in spite of all the above difficulties, had the world's first submarine fleet in size. By that time, the RKKF included 113 submarines, the United States was in second place with 84 submarines, and France was in third place with 77 submarines. . " classic Soviet bullshit - most submarines were of type M and had a formal combat value, which was successfully shown in the Second World War ... request It is strange that the author rightly said about submarines like Shch, and bypassed the little ones ... request
    "programs of voluntarism of Joseph Vissarionovich, who was impressed by large ships. But in reality, apparently, everything was much more complicated." In fact, the author then showed well that there was only voluntarism and technical illiteracy of the IVS, which led to large losses of resources and finances... The British would not have bought into the phony LK, especially without AV... bully
    1. +1
      April 16 2019 14: 17
      Quote: ser56
      It is strange that the author rightly said about submarines of the type Sh, and bypassed the babies ..

      Submarines of type M were positioned as submarines to protect bases and coasts, and were not adapted for active operations.
      1. 0
        April 16 2019 17: 35
        Quote: goose
        Type M submarines were positioned,

        and not too much more than 100 pieces for defense? bully
        1. +4
          April 16 2019 17: 41
          Quote: ser56
          and not too much more than 100 pieces for defense?

          But what if the industry could not do something larger and more complex for a long time, and the railroad could not transport. There was no industrial base at the Far Eastern Front and Northern Fleet, they did what they could - small submarines and torpedo boats.
          By the complexity of manufacturing it was easier to make 4 pieces of M than one C.
          1. +1
            April 17 2019 11: 58
            Quote: goose
            if industry couldn’t do something bigger and more complicated for a long time,

            But what about submarines of type D or L? By the way, quite reasonable products ...
            Quote: goose
            and the railway was not able to transport

            drove, but in sections ...
            Quote: goose
            what they could - small submarines and torpedo boats.

            and both products were essentially a waste of big money ... request
            Quote: goose
            By the complexity of manufacturing it was easier to make 4 pieces of M than one C.

            you are mistaken, the most complex and expensive thing on any ship is the engine, auxiliary mechanisms, weapons and instruments... for 4 submarines of the M type you need 8 TA, 4 engines, 4 radio stations, 8 batteries, 4 sets of high-pressure cylinders, etc.... and the weight of the hull is not that expensive...
            1. 0
              April 17 2019 19: 23
              Quote: ser56
              But what about submarines of type D or L?

              Type "D" - this is the very first pancake, which is lumpy. With "L" it was already better.
              Quote: ser56
              and both products were essentially a waste of big money ...

              The question is controversial - because no one knows what would have happened in the same Far East if the USSR had not started to urgently strengthen the Pacific Fleet "base defense torpedo tubes". smile
  10. 0
    April 16 2019 14: 00
    Uh-xnumx? But nothing that C-207 is written on the wheelhouse?
    1. +1
      April 16 2019 14: 42
      45-ku on the wheelhouse is also visible
    2. +4
      April 16 2019 15: 28
      Quote: ENOTE
      Uh-xnumx? But nothing that C-207 is written on the wheelhouse?

      Everything is fine - this is Щ-207 after overhaul.
      May 21, 1943 "Shch-207" got up for overhaul, which lasted until the end of the war. On April 12, 1944, Captain-Lieutenant Stetsenko Vasily Vasilievich, who previously commanded the Pacific Shch-207, was appointed commander of the Shch-130). At the end of 1944, the submarine was towed to the liberated Nikolaev, where the repair continued. On March 31, 1949, the Sch-207 finally came into operation.
      June 16, 1949 the boat receives the letter-digital designation "S-207"; On September 11, 1954, she was withdrawn from service and reorganized into the KBP-43 floating combat training room, and from January 12, 1957, into the UTS-39 training station for survivability.

      On the "type C" submarine in the photo clearly does not pull. smile
  11. ABM
    0
    April 16 2019 15: 52
    "Out of 8 light cruisers, only 4 are left" - the Kalinin and Kaganovich cruisers, which are close in performance characteristics to the 26-bis project, were commissioned at the Pacific Fleet
  12. -7
    April 16 2019 17: 42
    Quote: stalkerwalker
    And you have to be completely crazy to believe that after the victory over England, Germany would leave the USSR alone.

    You have to be no less crazy to allow the defeat of France... but the IVS did it... bully
    1. +5
      April 16 2019 18: 41
      Quote: ser56
      no less crazy, you have to be to prevent the defeat of France ... but the ITT did it ...

      M-dja :))) And this person is also taken to talk about history ... And I still argued with him about something ...
      1. 0
        April 17 2019 11: 41
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        M-dja :))) And this person is also taken to talk about history ... And I still argued with him about something ...

        no arguments? general demagogy has begun? bully
        1. +1
          April 17 2019 17: 37
          Quote: ser56
          no arguments?

          Alas, even a minimal acquaintance with that period quite unequivocally suggests that the USSR had neither political, military, nor economic, and in general no opportunities or prerequisites for stopping Hitler in 1940. Even with the after-knowledge. And without him - this is generally nonsense. Accordingly, you either troll, or are unable to add 2 + 2 (if you have studied that period at least a little and believe what you are writing), or you are taken to discuss topics completely unknown to you.
          In no case of the above, it makes no sense to discuss with you, so I really have no arguments for you.
          1. 0
            April 17 2019 18: 23
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            the fact that the USSR had neither political, nor military, nor economic, and in general no opportunities or prerequisites for stopping Hitler in 1940.

            just read Voroshilov's speech at the negotiations with the Anglo-Franco in the summer of 39, what numbers of divisions/tanks/aircraft he uses. And the numbers are real...bully
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Even with aftertaste.

            what knowledge after? The question of strategic talent ... see Churchill - he accurately formulated the task of increasing the difficulty of defeating Hitler after his armament ... And he did not hide it ...
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            either unable to add 2 + 2

            Agitprop went ...
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            In any case, of the above, there is no sense in discussing with you,

            what pathos .... bully It’s always amusing - people see the mad result of one policy, but they are deeply convinced that it is the only true policy — the school told them so ... bully However - whoever does not know how to think is always thinking thinks crazy - they encroach on the basics ... bully
            1. +3
              April 17 2019 19: 39
              Quote: ser56
              just read Voroshilov’s speech in negotiations with the Anglo-Franks in the summer of 39, what numbers of divisions / tanks / planes he is operating on. And the numbers are real ..

              Mwa ha ha ... Comrade Voroshilov could voice any figures at the negotiations - nobody could check them anyway.
              In fact, there was a gaping void behind the numbers of divisions. Because in the summer of 1939, Comrade Voroshilov began reform, which for six months deprived the Red Army of the mobilization component, leaving only personnel units. Moreover, this reform has not traditionally been provided with materiel.
              In accordance with the decision adopted, on August 15, 1939, People's Commissar of Defense Marshal K.E. Voroshilov gave directives No. 4/2 / 48601-4 / 2/48611 to the Military Councils of the Leningrad (MVO), Moscow (MVO), Kalininsky (KalVO), Belorussian (BVO) and Kiev Special (KVO), Kharkov (KhVO), Orlovsky (OrVO), Volga Volga Federal District), North Caucasian (North Caucasian Military District), Ural (UrVO) and Siberian (Siberian Military District) military districts, according to which they should form 25 departments of rifle corps from August 1 to December 1939, 18, transfer personnel divisions to the new staff of 8 people and deploy 900 divisions of triple deployment in 36 divisions of b 92 people.
              On August 22, the People's Commissar of Defense reported to the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR on the availability of weapons of the proposed organizational measures; Given the availability of weapons in the untouchable reserve, the measures taken were generally provided for rifles, machine guns, 82-mm mortars and 76-mm guns. For self-loading rifles, 45-mm anti-tank guns, 122-mm howitzers and 76-mm anti-aircraft guns, incomplete coverage was expected during 1939 on the basis of their receipt from the industry, and the need for anti-tank rifles, 12,7 mm machine guns, 50 mm, 107 mm and 120 mm mortars, 152 mm howitzers, 37 mm and 45 mm anti-aircraft guns and automobiles were satisfied with the receipt from industry in 1939-1940. The People's Commissar of Defense asked for permission to use the untouchable reserve, to oblige industry to fulfill the plan of military orders for 1939 and to make an additional order for cars.
              © Meltyuhov
              And in the winter of 1939 it was revealed that the Red Army did not have personnel divisions either. There is a crowd of somehow trained men with rifles who do not know how to interact with each other, artillery and tanks. The division, reinforced by a heavy tank brigade, could not break through the line of defense with a couple of machine-gun bunkers (the next division generally had one) - and stood up until February. To the north of Ladoga, the same rifle divisions were cut up and crushed by a pair of battalions. It took two months to train the infantry to even go after the tanks ... and a lot of blood.

              All the might of the Red Army in May 1940 is perfectly shown in the "Act of transferring the NKO". And the country's leadership at that time already knew the real state of affairs in the Red Army and admitted that the USSR did not have a modern army (this, in particular, was said by the IVS at a meeting following the SFE results).
              1. 0
                April 18 2019 14: 01
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Voroshilov ovoshch could voice any figures at negotiations - nobody could check them anyway.

                well, why did the western intelligence work bully The number of aircraft or tanks is quite sane ...
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Because in the summer of 1939, Comrade Voroshilov began reform, which for six months deprived the Red Army of the mobilization component

                in September, they began mobilization in Poland and by November they had a serious army ...
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Incomplete coverage was expected during 1939.

                and where was perfect? the Germans? bully
                Quote: Alexey RA
                And in the winter of 1939 it was opened

                somehow in the summer of 39g the Red Army fought on the X-D ... not perfect, but quite ... and the TBR made 500km marches, and the infantry defeated the Japanese ...
                1. 0
                  April 18 2019 16: 44
                  Quote: ser56
                  The number of aircraft or tanks is quite sane ...

                  To assess the combat readiness of the army by the number of equipment is a disastrous matter. June 1941 showed it quite well.
                  Quote: ser56
                  in September, they began mobilization in Poland and by November they had a serious army ...

                  By quantity - yes. And for quality, see the Finnish campaign.
                  This army will reach some German Oder-Warte Bogen - and stand as it faced the Finnish Sj or Sk.
                  Quote: ser56
                  somehow in the summer of 39g the Red Army fought on the X-D ... not perfect, but quite ... and the TBR made 500km marches, and the infantry defeated the Japanese ...

                  Are you going to attack the German entrenched infantry with naked tanks without artillery and motorized infantry - both on the X-D? Or surround the German division for five days, with an operation depth of 25 km - so that by the time the claws are closed, no one will be in the boiler? wink
                  Comrade Stalin ... As expected, there were no divisions in the encirclement, the enemy either managed to withdraw the main forces, or rather, there were no large forces in this area for a long time, and a specially trained garrison was sitting, which is now completely destroyed. ..
                  © Voroshilov
                  1. 0
                    April 19 2019 12: 22
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    To assess the combat readiness of the army by the number of equipment is a disastrous matter. June 1941 showed it quite well.

                    1) The combat readiness - everything, but the technical equipment has always been important, because the number of guns, tanks and aircraft is taken into account separately ... or is there a different approach for the Red Army? bully
                    2) Comparison with 41g is not correct - and the Wehrmacht is different, and the Red Army is different - the same tank troops were defeated by reform request In addition, the Germans have initiative, allies and resources ...
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    And for quality, see the Finnish campaign.

                    why not HG? The Finnish campaign is special, both in natural conditions and in tasks ... I note that the Red Army completed the tasks. although it’s bloody ... However, the loss ratio is not worse than 41g ...
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    This army will reach some

                    Germans have only 20 non-combat-ready divisions, 200 planes and no tanks at all ... request
                    Is it worth it to belittle the Red Army? Let me remind you that after 5 years she took Berlin ...
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    You are about to attack the German entrenched infantry

                    and where did she dig in? bully if you ask - how would I act - this is not correct request
                    But the then Red Army would act as in the Liberation Campaign - I think they would take all of Poland to ... feel
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    so that by the time the claws are closed, no one will be in the boiler?

                    but this is not the main thing - the main thing is the political and military-strategic consequences of our attack, even if Samsonov's army perishes 2... request In my opinion, Germany will not withstand this blow politically... at the very least there will be a miracle on the English Channel and the salvation of France - what then? The Germans do not have the resources for a war on two fronts... Romania has no oil, and we have only one front, without the Romanian and Finnish... request
            2. 0
              April 19 2019 07: 44
              Quote: ser56
              just read Voroshilov’s speech at the negotiations with the Anglo-Francs in the summer of 39, what numbers of divisions / tanks / planes he operates. And the numbers are real ...

              wassat good
              Sergei, do not be offended, but I no longer see what to talk to you about. Real numbers, wow ... That's why you wrote this? Well, is it so difficult to see what the RKKA REALLY was in those years? Translation of territorial divisions into "triplets" .. Zero divided by three :))) In general, your gaping gaps in knowledge of history both on naval topics and on general history are terrifying, and your belief in your own righteousness leaves no hope for correction situations. Therefore, in the future, I will not answer you to your remarks - unless I consider it necessary to comment on some of your pearls for the rest of the readers. hi
              1. 0
                April 19 2019 12: 30
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Sergey, do not be offended, but I no longer see what you can talk about.

                you are repeating ... request I will say this, I deny another point of view a priori, you show your limitations ... bully
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                what REALLY was the Red Army in those years?

                the army that defeated the Japanese on HG ... feel By the way, you have post-perestroika ogone syndrome bully maybe Beria is the main villain for you? hi
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Transfer of territorial divisions to "troika".

                and compare with the Germans - they create their divisions in the same way - by cloning... it's funny to see the Red Army having some problems, and the Wehrmacht having some + bully why such self-abasement? Didn’t you work in Germany? bully
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                widening gaps in the knowledge of history as a ship

                in your fantasies - you basically proved your point of view on standard US LCs, but you came up with problems from scratch by accuracy ... bully
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Therefore, in the future I will not respond to your remarks

                take 3 ... bully amused by the conceit of science-pop writers ... bully let's just say - I'm not talking to you ... by the way, marketing is bad with you too ... hi
    2. +6
      April 16 2019 19: 25
      Quote: ser56
      no less crazy, one must be in order to allow the defeat of France ... but the IVS did it ..

      Yeah ... it’s Stalin who took away the authority to sign something from the French delegation that came to negotiate the military alliance, and the British delegation had the authority to negotiate at all. wink And this Stalin brought to the attention of Germany. what negotiations:
      they are only a reserve means for genuine reconciliation with Germany and that these ties will disappear as soon as the only important and worthy goal is really achieved — an agreement with Germany

      The defeat of France was allowed by France itself and her allied Britain - who did not want to negotiate anything with the USSR and sent some "Spanish ski instructors" for negotiations.
      1. -1
        April 17 2019 11: 47
        Quote: Alexey RA
        it was Stalin who took away the authority to sign something from a French delegation that had arrived for negotiations on a military alliance

        You probably think that they wrote something clever, in fact they repeated Agitprop ... bully The IVS argument system for fooling his people in sharp turns in politics ... hi
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The defeat of France allowed France itself and allied Britain

        1) Whatever it was, both France and Britain fought with Hitler in 1939-41, and we sat back, considering ourselves very smart - we deceived the capitalists, pitted them among ourselves ...
        2) But in fact, we allowed the defeat of the ally on land, drove Finland and Romania into a bloc with Germany, and got against ourselves practically a single military bloc of United Europe hi And the result of this IVS policy is considered wise! bully
        3) In order to save France, or rather itself, the USSR had to hit the rear of Germany in May 1940, as the RIA began to advance in East Prussia in order to save France! And not for the sake of France, but for the Western Front in WW1 to be the main ... laughing
        1. 0
          April 17 2019 17: 29
          Quote: ser56
          You probably think that they wrote something clever, in fact they repeated Agitprop ...

          Actually, I repeated the moderate revisionist Meltiukhov.
          A contract requires two parties. And if one of them in every possible way evades negotiations and signing documents, then there is a reasonable suspicion that she does not need this agreement. And if you recall that the same people involved in the year before this were done in Munich ...
          Quote: ser56
          1) Whatever it was, both France and Britain fought with Hitler in 1939-41, and we sat back, considering ourselves very smart - we deceived the capitalists, pitted them among ourselves ...
          2) But in fact, we allowed the defeat of the ally on land, drove Finland and Romania into a bloc with Germany, and got against ourselves practically a single military bloc of United Europe

          Britain became an ally of the USSR only after the crushing defeat of France, the "Battle of England" and Germany's attack on the USSR.
          Nobody knows what would have happened after the USSR attacked Germany in 1940 (with the inevitable occupation of Poland) - with France alive and without horror "we were left alone with the Huns". It is quite possible that Hess would have flown earlier, and we would have received a united anti-Bolshevik (and anti-Russian) front in Europe.
          Quote: ser56
          To save France, or rather itself, the USSR had to hit the rear of Germany in May 1940, as the RIA once attacked East Prussia to save France! And not for the sake of France, but for the Western Front in WW1 to be the main ...

          But there is no Entente in 1940. The French and British did not want an alliance. And an isolated blow of the USSR to the rear of the Reich with a slight movement of the hand turns into "occupation of Poland" and "save Europe from the aggression of the Bolshevik hordes as a united front"Fantastic? And the plans for the raid on Baku and the landing in Narvik are also fiction? For the last operation, the leading landing party was already loaded onto the ships.
          1. 0
            April 17 2019 18: 00
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Actually, I repeated the moderate revisionist Meltiukhov.

            there was no link request
            Quote: Alexey RA
            A contract requires two parties.

            why do you need a contract? This is just a piece of paper, do not absolutize it ...
            When the situation is necessary, the agreement is concluded in years ... see how the Soviet-British agreement appeared ... bully
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Quite possible

            Are you serious? bully German tanks go through France, and the Franks will be against the Russian steam rink-2? bully
            Quote: Alexey RA
            and we would get a united anti-Bolshevik (and anti-Russian) front in Europe.

            you forget that France has not been part of the anti-Russian front since the time of IA3, and there was no point - there was even an agreement in 35... Another thing is that the Bolsheviks were not trusted because of the Comintern...
            Quote: Alexey RA
            The French and the British did not want the union.

            They can be understood, the RSFSR came out of WW1 in a revolutionary way... abandoning the Franks... and the same Bolsheviks were at the head of the USSR... But we traditionally avoid this topic... bully
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Are plans for a raid on Baku and a landing in Narvik also fantastic?

            after which they appeared remember? Why did the USSR begin to derail Finland? And it was the USSR that divided Poland and Germany - our "subtleties of the protocol" they were violets - there was a joint parade in Brest, which was bashfully called the passage of technology ... bully
            And anyway, Alexey RA, it never occurred to you how we looked there in those years? hi
            1. 0
              April 18 2019 10: 24
              Quote: ser56
              Are you serious? bully German tanks go across France, and francs will be against the Russian steam rink-2?

              German tanks do not go through France. German tanks go east, and the French are popularly told that the new year 1814 is coming to them, and only a thin gray line saves them from the horrors of Bolshevism / Cossacks in Montmartre.
              Quote: ser56
              They can be understood, the RSFSR revolutionally left the WWI ... abandoning the Franks ... and the Bolsheviks are at the head of the USSR .... But we traditionally bypass this topic ...

              Actually, this is not a Soviet delegation arrived in Paris to ask for an alliance. The British and French arrived in Moscow to negotiate an alliance - they were the initiators. And they did everything to disrupt negotiations from the very beginning.
              Quote: ser56
              after which they appeared remember? Why did the USSR begin to derail Finland? And it was the USSR that divided Poland and Germany - our "subtleties of the protocol" they were violets - there was a joint parade in Brest, which was bashfully called the passage of technology ...
              And anyway, Alexey RA, it never occurred to you how we looked there in those years?

              * Thoughtfully looks towards Poland, which, together with the Reich, divided Czechoslovakia and almost started a war with Lithuania - and, nevertheless, had an agreement with France and Britain.
              1. 0
                April 18 2019 14: 44
                Quote: Alexey RA
                German tanks do not go through France

                are we not about May 1940? bully About Cossacks is not very funny, there was 1914 ...
                Quote: Alexey RA
                German tanks go east,

                But will they have time? and where will they get the fuel? Romania is not an ally ... bully
                Quote: Alexey RA
                The British and French arrived in Moscow to negotiate an alliance - they were the initiators. And they did everything to disrupt negotiations from the very beginning.

                1) Read your phrase bully Usually they write like this when they broadcast Agitprop ...
                2) Maybe "breakdown of negotiations" is our version? They wanted to drag them out, which is reasonable - the summer would have passed, and what would have happened in 1940 without the M-R pact - who knows...
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Thoughtfully looks towards Poland, which, together with the Reich, divided Czechoslovakia and almost started a war with Lithuania -

                Russia is not Poland and we always have a different attitude, this is normal!
                The question is different - the leadership of the USSR itself made many mistakes, but decided to play the girl with the wolves - such as observing the agreement ... bully Contracts are respected while they are profitable ... request
                so tactically the MR pact was reasonable, but on 10.05.1940/45/XNUMX it became outdated, as in XNUMX the agreement with Japan was outdated ..... How does a blow to her back bother anyone? feel
    3. +2
      April 16 2019 20: 03
      How crazy must Chamberlain and Daladier have been in 1938 to allow the Anschluss of Germany with Austria and the seizure of Czechoslovakia in 1938! And how sane was the leadership of Poland, which grabbed a piece of Czechoslovakia together with the Germans in 1938! The only one who was ready to fulfill its allied obligations was the USSR, which mobilized its army and air force, but was refused the opportunity by the Western powers to come to the aid of Czechoslovakia! After this, 1939 and 1940 are God's punishment for the Poles and the French for their betrayal and stupidity, bordering on madness!
      1. 0
        April 17 2019 11: 49
        Quote: Potter
        How crazy were Chamberlain and Deladier in 1938

        read what Churchill wrote about their politics ...
        Quote: Potter
        After that, 1939 and 1940, it was God's punishment to the Poles and the French for betrayal and stupidity, bordering on insanity!

        so it is, as we are 41g ... request
  13. -1
    April 16 2019 17: 47
    Quote: Alexey RA
    And there is "Frunze" with two towers, while the sailors draw beautiful pictures.

    the towers of IM lifted them ...
    1. 0
      April 17 2019 13: 11
      Towers 6 pcs. picked up, but everyone was waiting for the old dreadnought to be scrapped.
      The fact is that Tukhachevsky and company are formally right: there is no ZSM at Petropavlovsk under fire from a 15-inch Mark I. This was also blamed on the unfinished "Ishmaels". That is why they thought how to do without expensive but useless "Tsar's toys".
      The lack of specialists did not allow the development of an adequate project for the radical modernization of dreadnoughts, taking into account their possible basing in the North. And so at the end of the twenties we could easily get "Petropavlovsk" and "Sevastopol" in the Baltic, "Nicholas I" - in the Black Sea. But "Gangut" and "Poltava" should be modernized in the image and likeness of "Deutschland" into ocean raiders and sent to the North.
      Then it was possible to take on "Ishmael". As I already wrote, the valuable in them is the lightweight, durable and, what is especially important, the case designed for high speeds. So the designers had a hefty choice:
      1. Construction of dreadnoughts like the modernized "Fuso", "Paris Commune" or pr.27.
      2. Construction of battlecruisers of the "Mikhail Frunze" type with a power plant of 150-220 thousand hp.
      3. Construction of high-speed battleships of the "Dunkerque" type.
      But naturally, none of these ships would be a champion and would not be suitable as a visiting card of the country.
  14. 0
    April 17 2019 14: 02
    Stalin did not "like" any battleships and other large ships. The planes for all battleships and aircraft carriers always came from the admirals. Of the "great" forces in the 30s and 50s, only the USSR did not build a single battleship or aircraft carrier.
    The fleet was created only for coastal defense and assistance to the army. Look at the Soviet fleet at the beginning of the war. Hundreds of boats - torpedo boats, armored boats, small hunters, minesweepers, dozens of submarines, thousands of aircraft, but of the large ships only three old battleships and several cruisers. All this could not beat Stalin like that.
    Look at the program after the war - an uncountable number of boats, hundreds of submarines, dozens of destroyers and light cruisers, and only 4 heavy cruisers. Not a single battleship and aircraft carrier. After the war, the USSR overtook a generation of battleships and aircraft carriers directly to nuclear submarines as the main battle
    ship. And thanks to Stalin in 1952.
  15. +1
    April 17 2019 14: 32
    Quote: ser56
    3) In order to save France, or rather itself, the USSR had to hit the rear of Germany in May 1940, as the RIA began to advance in East Prussia in order to save France! And not for the sake of France, but for the Western Front in WW1 to be the main ...

    This operation, a blow to Germany in May 1940, can be called "The suicide of the USSR."
    First of all, the USSR could start mobilizing but not attack the first. Then the German army immediately stopped the operation against France and, along the internal line, the fully mobilized German army along the excellent German railways and autobahns in a matter of days passed to the East on the offensive under better conditions than in 1941. The reason for the war, the mobilization of the USSR - has already set a precedent. While Germany is advancing in the East in the West, the state of "ridiculous war" is returning. France and England are watching with great interest the defeat of the USSR as they watched the defeat of Poland a year earlier.
    The second scenario - the USSR attacks with available forces without mobilization. A repeat of the first scenario follows, but only under conditions even worse for the USSR. The multi-temporal Red Army itself approached the main forces of the mobilized German army and stretched out its communications. The decisive counterattack of the Germans somewhere in Poland or in the area of ​​Berlin, which is even worse for the Red Army. Anglo-French are even more amused sitting on the Maginot Line.
    Of course there are worse scenarios. Ango-French along with the Germans attack the Red Army. Or while the Germans are fighting with the Russians in Poland, the Anglo-French will occupy all of Germany.
    1. 0
      April 17 2019 18: 08
      Quote: Kostadinov
      First of all, the USSR could begin mobilization but did not attack the first.

      Why? The USSR has more than 30 tank brigades, 9 cavalry corps, dozens of rifle divisions on the border - a couple of weeks of secret reinforcements a la BOOM and forward... mobilization is announced upon crossing the border... the Germans have a ridiculous number of weak divisions in Poland without tanks and aircraft... request
      Quote: Kostadinov
      when the German army immediately stopped the operation against France and, on the domestic line, the fully mobilized German army moved across the beautiful German railways and autobahns in a matter of days

      and if the railway bomb? And it’s impossible to plant divisions right away ... and where to get fuel, shells, motor resources? bully
      Quote: Kostadinov
      East on the offensive under better conditions than in 1941.

      stupidity ... compare the number of tanks, and the types and number of TDs of the Germans ... bully And the need to keep a shield against the Franks ... And Romania is not on the side of Hitler ...
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Ango-French along with the Germans attack the Red Army.

      complete nonsense in may 1940 .... bully
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Or while the Germans are fighting with the Russians in Poland, the Anglo-French will occupy all of Germany.

      no, the Germans simply surrender, the generals demolish Hitler and agree ... bully
      1. +1
        April 17 2019 19: 51
        Quote: ser56
        From what? the USSR has more than 30 Tbr, 9 cavalry corps, dozens of rifle divisions on the border - a couple of weeks of secret replenishment a la BUM and forth ...

        The Soviet Union recently ended the SFV. As a result of which it suddenly turned out that:
        ... it is now necessary to restore all tank brigades and make the appropriate re-formations, having urgently restored tank brigades, at least at the expense of tanks of rifle divisions. Today, in the Kiev Military District, there are 14 tanks in four tank brigades. The war sold them apart, tank brigades scattered. I have to say bluntly, if there will be mobilization now, our KOVO brigades are not ready. The tanks of these brigades are now returning from the Leningrad Military District.
        © Pavlov, Meeting on the results of the Special Economic Fund.
        Not bad, huh? The local war with Finland bared the western border districts to such an extent that the KOVO in fact lost its BTV. Whom will we rob on tanks for war with the Germans? wink
        Quote: ser56
        mobilization is announced with crossing the border .. the Germans have a ridiculous number of weak divisions in Poland without tanks and aircraft ...

        Hehehehe ... and how are we going to mobilize - not having a mobplane?
        In connection with the war and a significant redeployed troops mobilization plan violated. The People’s Commissariat of Defense has no new mobilization plan.
        Regulatory mobilization activities are not completed by development.

        Quote: ser56
        and if the railway bomb?

        Tried - in the SFV. With the erroneous bombing of its railway station Gruzino (navigational training, as always. At altitude), the nine bombers managed to miss all the bombs.
        1. 0
          April 18 2019 15: 00
          Quote: Alexey RA
          The local war with Finland bared the western border districts to such an extent that KOVO in fact lost its BTV

          So what? It's business as usual - I'll repair the tanks, they'll bring them from the inner districts... in June there were enough of them to occupy/liberate the Baltics...
          Quote: Alexey RA
          and how are we going to mobilize - without having a mobile plan?

          In the USSR this is the norm, all plans are bogus - not provided with resources... have you forgotten already? bully
          Quote: Alexey RA
          In case of erroneous bombing

          on one fact such conclusions? bully
          You know, it always amuses me - according to Agitprop the Red Army in 41g is not trained, not provided, not .... but the funny thing is, the Germans were defeated by an even worse army from this point of view request
          Compare this with the Germans in 1940 - they have all their forces in the West, fuel and ammunition are running short... the defeat in WW1 is in the back of their minds, they seemed to have made a breakthrough, the first successes in France, and then the Russians immediately occupy the Baltics in a couple of weeks (as agreed), but this is only a cover... On May 23-24 they began an offensive on Prussia and in Poland... and what should the Germans do - encircle or withdraw troops from the Channel? bully
          In my opinion there will be a panic in the leadership and Hitler will be thrown off ... and if not thrown off, then you will not envy the command - what to do bully
  16. 0
    April 17 2019 22: 44
    interesting article, no less interesting comments.
    I read it with pleasure. Thank.
  17. 0
    April 18 2019 02: 56
    There is a plausible opinion that the surrender of Sevastopol instead of its active support by all the forces of the Black Sea Fleet (with large expected losses) was caused by the same political propaganda considerations: the death of many ships would have looked very negative, given the defeat at that time of the Allied fleets against the Axis countries. As a result, an erroneous decision was made: to stop the defense of the strategically important city, and save the fleet that was not needed by anyone there.
  18. 0
    April 18 2019 11: 39
    From what? the USSR has more than 30 Tbr, 9 cavalry corps, dozens of rifle divisions on the border - a couple of weeks of secret replenishment a la BUM and forth ... mobilization is announced with crossing the border .. the Germans have a ridiculous number of weak divisions in Poland without tanks and aircraft. .. request

    Let us assume that they could foresee a bistro defeat for France and its allies - which neither the French nor the Germans could foresee. Concentration and preparation for the offensive in such mashabas cannot be skrited. Moreover, the "secret" replenishment. The Germans will always have at least a few days to prepare, which is enough. Their Wehrmacht is already mobilized, and the main forces of the Luftwaffe can be transferred to the East in 48 hours. Maybe today the number of German divisions in the East looks funny to you, but Finland also looked funny in 1939. German divisions in the East can be very quickly strengthened with additional mobilization in Pomerania, Silesia and East Prussia. In defense, they have ample combat capability. They have fortifications there, cities that the Red Army took with great difficulty in 1945. I don’t even want to think about the offensive of the Red Army in Germany in May 1940 - what kind of beating of Soviet tanks and bombers could beat, much worse than 1941. And when the offensive gets bogged down somewhere in the region of Kaliningrad, Gdansk, Wroclaw, a devastating counterattack of the main forces of the German army of 1940 model will follow. At this time, there will be a separative peace or reconciliation in the West.
    and if the railway bomb? And it’s impossible to plant divisions right away ... and where to get fuel, shells, motor resources?

    Look at the German fighters and anti-aircraft artillery and Soviet bombers in May 1940 and you can understand how it will all end and how much they have time to prevent the Germans. Soviet aircraft in February 1945 lost dominance in the air, at the Oder, the aerodromes lagged behind. In May 1940 it could hit ten times worse. The Luftwaffe was beating at the top of power and there were still no losses in the battle for England.
    stupidity ... compare the number of tanks, and the types and number of TDs of the Germans ... bully And the need to keep the screen against the Franks ... And Romania is not on the side of Hitler ...

    The German screen in the West will be on the Siegfried Line, as during the occupation of Poland, nothing more. And the French will be watching from behind the Maginot Line too. After all, the USSR is no more precious to them than Poland. I will not comment on the loss of an ally like Romania. I compare Soviet tanks in 1940 with German artillery and the training of German infantry and do not see anything good. All German guns, howitzers, automatic anti-aircraft guns, hand grenades, anti-tank rifles and even machine guns can be successfully used to destroy Soviet tanks. The same situation is in aviation. I do not want to think about Soviet strike aircraft as targets for German fighters and anti-aircraft guns in May 1940. Finland is an example. But the most important thing is that the Red Army itself is going to exterminate on foreign territory. The Germans have a minimal supply line, the Red Army has a maximum. These are scenarios that German strategy could only dream of in 1940 and 1941.
    no, the Germans simply surrender, the generals demolish Hitler and agree ..

    Exactly. They demolish Hitler, agree in the West and continue the war in the East. Moreover, the Anglo-French themselves were preparing to fight the USSR in 1940. Although this is unlikely, it is the worst-case scenario for the USSR.
    1. 0
      April 18 2019 15: 14
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Suppose that they could have foreseen the bistro defeat of France and its allies - which neither the French nor the Germans could have foreseen.

      what difference does it make whether there will be a quick defeat or not? The task is to force Hitler to fight on 2 fronts - like in WW1 they simply launched an offensive in Prussia and Poland request
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Concentration and preparation for the offensive in such mashabas cannot be skrited. Moreover, the "secret" replenishment.

      corny - preparation for the occupation of the Baltic states, the return of troops from the Finnish ...
      Quote: Kostadinov
      but Finland also looked funny in 1939

      in May 1940 there will be frosts in Poland? bully do you even know what -35 is? I am a Siberian ... feel
      Quote: Kostadinov
      And when the offensive gets bogged down somewhere in the area of ​​Kaliningrad, Gdansk, Wroclaw, the destructive counterattack of the main forces of the German army of the 1940 model will follow.

      1) seriously? and where will they get motor resources, fuel and shells? bully And who will keep the front in France?
      2) In any case, this will cover the mobilization of the Red Army and we will fight in Poland bully
      Quote: Kostadinov
      The Luftwaffe was beating at the top of power and there were still no losses in the battle for England.

      those. will they drop the western front? hi
      Quote: Kostadinov
      I compare Soviet tanks in 1940 with German artillery and the training of German infantry and I see nothing good.

      you have an aberration of vision - the Germans have NOT defeated France ... bully
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Example Finland.

      And what about Finland? can you imagine that the Bulgarian army took the Manerheim line in the winter? bully And the Red Army took! Yes, there were losses, but took ...
      Quote: Kostadinov
      The Germans have a minimum supply line with the Red Army maximum.

      but there’s nothing to supply - there are no trophies in France! There is no oil from Romania, all the Balkans are not yet under Hitler ... it will be later, in the fall of 40. Then you will create a united Europe against us ... request
      Quote: Kostadinov
      and continue the war in the East.

      debatable! why is it necessary for the British and especially the French ... Germany will be divided ...
      Quote: Kostadinov
      this is the worst case scenario for the USSR.

      worse than the 1941 scenario. hard to come up with, is it a blow to Japan! but in 1940 they received a lesson on HG.
  19. 0
    April 19 2019 17: 17
    what difference does it make whether there will be a quick defeat or not? The task is to force Hitler to fight on 2 fronts - like in WW1 they simply launched an offensive in Prussia and Poland request

    In World War I, Germany was stuck in France for 4 years, and despite this, a blow to Russia in Germany’s back was not successful, to say the least. In 1940, the German Blitzkrieg in France ended in a month. There is a very big difference in this. The war on two fronts in 1940 could not have turned out longer than 2-3 weeks.
    corny - preparation for the occupation of the Baltic states, the return of troops from the Finnish ...

    It’s probably possible to deceive the Germans for a while, but at least for several days a warning cannot be avoided.
    in May 1940 there will be frosts in Poland? bully do you even know what -35 is? I am a Siberian ... feel

    I agree there will be no frost in Poland, and all the worse for the Soviet offensive. If there are frosts or non-flying weather it will be better.
    1) seriously? and where will they get motor resources, fuel and shells? bully And who will keep the front in France?

    In addition to the campaign in Poland, the West was hit by a "strange war", and this is an insignificant consumption of motor resources, fuel and ammunition. In the worst case, the front in France will be held as during the operation in Poland in 1939. There will be a "strange war" and the French will be watching with interest what happens in the East. Why do you think that France will rush to save the USSR if she did not do it for Poland?
    2) In any case, this will cover the mobilization of the Red Army and we will fight in Poland bully

    The defeat and defeat of the world-time spacecraft will be in Poland. Then everything will be like in 1941, but under the best conditions for the Germans - everything starts earlier (May) and closer to Germany. The Red Army itself will go to destruction closer to Germany.
    you have an aberration of vision - the Germans have NOT defeated France ... bully

    Of course they did not defeat France when they defeated Poland. There will be a "strange war" in the West that will hardly divert any significant German troops or resources. They will stand on the Maginot Line and enjoy the war in the East.
    And what about Finland? can you imagine that the Bulgarian army took the Manerheim line in the winter? bully And the Red Army took! Yes, there were losses, but took ...

    The Bulgarian army will not be able to take the Manerheim line in the summer. And Finland’s problem is not winter, but how easily the Finnish infantry knocked out tanks, and the Finnish fighters and anti-aircraft gunners shot down aircraft.
    but there’s nothing to supply - there are no trophies in France! There is no oil from Romania, all the Balkans are not yet under Hitler ... it will be later, in the fall of 40. Then you will create a united Europe against us ... request

    What kind of trophies did they take in France? Only cars were beaten in noticeable numbers, but even without them the German army defeated France in a month. Synthetic fuel Germany itself produced and Ruminia did not beat in the war with Germany and supplied it in 1939.
    debatable! why do the British and especially the French need it ... Germany will be divided ..
    .
    And why do they need Czechoslovakia and Poland to lose and are going to bomb Baku in 1940? Why do you think that the Soviet attack on Germany strengthened France’s love for the USSR? Why not a new Munich?
    worse than the 1941 scenario. hard to come up with, is it a blow to Japan! but in 1940 they learned a lesson on X.]

    The scenario of 1941 unity on the basis of the USSR the war is playing.
  20. 0
    April 25 2019 19: 39
    I don’t even want to comment, the author finally fell into insanity.
  21. 0
    4 December 2020 20: 35
    So where are the "dozens of battleships" at the beginning of WWII? It was the Russian Empire that built dozens of battleships and other first-rank ships. The Soviet Union did not build a SINGLE such ship between the two world wars. There were only feeble attempts. In December 1935, as part of the program for creating the "Big Fleet", Stalin gave instructions to develop a project for a new battleship. At the same time, the USSR Navy initially focused on creating two types of battleships - moderate displacement, intended for closed naval theaters, and a large one, which was supposed to surpass all existing and prospective foreign battleships. Officially, the task to develop battleships for the Baltic and Pacific fleets was issued on February 21, 1936.
    During the construction of battleships, the Soviet industry faced great difficulties. The insufficient level of development of many industries forced them to seek foreign technical assistance, and the construction itself went far behind the approved schedules. By June 22, 1941, the first two ships of the series had the highest readiness - 21% and 18%, respectively. The beginning of the Great Patriotic War led to the termination of construction, officially issued on July 10, 1941.