The competitive struggle of Kovrov machines with Izhevsk ended in loss

Against the background of news on the conclusion by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation of a contract with the Kalashnikov concern for the supply of one hundred and fifty thousand AK-12 and AK-15 assault rifles to the troops for almost three years; there is almost no news about the supply of 6P67 (AEK-971) and 6P68 (AEK) troops to the troops. 973), which were also adopted by the Russian army.

As previously reported, “Military Outlook”, the Ministry of Defense ordered 150 thousands of Kalashnikov AK-12 and AK-15 assault rifles, while almost nothing was reported about the supply of Kovrov automatons. But everything could have been completely different, and instead of AK machine guns, the Russian army could have armed with AEK machine guns.

Competition for the new machine for the Russian army as part of the development of new combat equipment "Warrior" the Russian Ministry of Defense announced in 2012 year. Kovrov gunsmiths put up models from the AEK-971 family, which were developed from the end of the 70s of the last century, and Izhevsk - a completely new AK-12 model of the 5,45 mm caliber, developed from scratch in the framework of the "Warrior" competition, and in the category 7,62 mm proposed for the contest AK-103-3.

AK-12 early version

According to the results of the first preliminary tests, the Kovrov automata won, and the Izhevsk ones dropped out of the competition altogether and in the future Kalashnikov could participate in the competition only in an initiative manner.

The A-545 and A-762 assault rifles, after completion, should be recommended for mass production and military testing. AK-12 and AK-103-3 machines did not meet the requirements of the TTZ and state tests failed. Further refinement recommended for developer tools

- stated in the final conclusion of the commission on the results of tests issued in 2015 year.

Among the reasons for the failure of the Izhevsk project were called not only the technical shortcomings of the machine, made from scratch, but also not adapted to the technical processes of the enterprise. Unification with previous Kalashnikov models was no more than 10%, and this increased the cost of an automatic machine in 5-6 compared to AK-74М.

After the departure from the competition, Sergey Urzhumtsev was invited to the position of Kalashnikov’s General Designer;Weapon". Under his leadership, it was decided to abandon the previous project and create a new machine based on the deep modernization of AK-74. As a result, another AK-12, unified with previous AK models by 54%, was obtained.

AK-12 final version

Having taken part in the further competition on an initiative basis, the new AK-12 and AK-15 submachine guns did not exceed the Kovrov 6P67 and 6P68 models, the differences in combat effectiveness were extremely insignificant. All decided the cost of further production. As it turned out, the production of new Izhevsk machines only slightly exceeded the cost of production of AK-74, while the production of Kovrov machines would cost 10 times more expensive.

AEK-971 final version

Thus, for mass procurement in the interests of the Russian army, the Russian Defense Ministry chose Izhevsk models AK-12 5,45 mm caliber and AK-15 mm 7,62 caliber. Kovrov’s AEK-971 caliber 5,45 mm and AEK-973 caliber 7,62 mm were also put into service, but because of their cost they went into service with special forces.

As previously reported in the Kalashnikov concern, currently, work is underway to improve the new Kalashnikov assault rifles, and work has begun on creating a promising new platform based on the ideas of Yevgeny Dragunovich.

Earlier it was reported that the Ministry of Defense of Russia allows a complete rejection of the caliber 5,45 mm and the transition to the caliber 7,62 mm. The reason for the possible rejection of the 5,45 cartridge, mm, in the Main Rocket and Artillery Directorate (GRAU) is the lack of penetration of bullets of this caliber at medium and long distances in the strength of the enemy in personal protective equipment. According to experts from the 3-th Central Research Institute of the Ministry of Defense, efforts should be focused on upgrading and improving the characteristics of cartridges and weapons caliber 7,62 millimeter.

The caliber cartridge 5,45X39 mm was adopted in the 1974 year, as the main cartridge for AK-74 created under it. He weighed 6 grams less than the 7,62 cartridge, which allowed the shooter to carry increased ammunition. Among the main advantages of the new cartridge was called lower recoil, greater accuracy of shooting, a more flat trajectory of the bullet, which increased the distance of the direct shot.

Comments

[Victor_B]

How much can you chew on it?
100500 is the same!

[bulvas]

Off topic, but noteworthy

Counterpunch (USA): is it true that the USA has lost military superiority over Russia?

https://inosmi.ru/politic/20190408/244900605.html?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: Victor_B

How much can you chew on it?
100500 is the same!

And this is so that such giraffes as I came up :)))) 2 / 3 from the above article was a revelation for me

[Victor_B]

And this is so that such giraffes as I came up :)))) 2 / 3 from the above article was a revelation for me

???!
Something I doubt to MARSHAL SOFA TROOPS (I wrote it standing! ) IN did not reach before Kalashisrach.
For the mind and sound curiosity are painfully uninjured! (I mean smartly)

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Yes, how to say, Viktor Petrovich, Kalash ... holivary arrived, but the point is that I only knew that there is an 2 machine gun, Kovrovsky seems to be more advanced, but at the same time whether less reliable or more expensive, and maybe both at once, but all this is inaccurate :))))
You see, when a person is not in the subject at all, it is difficult for him to read disputes - the arguments of the parties mutually neutralize each other, and in the end you understand that you don’t understand anything :))))

[Darth Ragosinus]

Well, this is already clear. The Izhevsk people raised all for themselves. The same happened in aviation - Sukhoi crushed the same Mig for itself.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Exactly.

As it turned out, the production of new Izhevsk rifles was only slightly higher than the cost of producing AK-74, while the production of Kovrov rifles would cost 10 times more.

Like this? 10 times more expensive? They lie. If only this machine is not made of gold.
This is all the Izhevsk lobby.

[svp67]

Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi

Like this? 10 times more expensive?

Everything is simple. The "old" ones could go to the production of "new" Kalashnikovs, but the new "tar" must be made from scratch. That's all

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Everything is simple. The "old" ones could go to the production of "new" Kalashnikovs, but the new "tar" must be made from scratch.

Well this is just the same.
But even making the machine from scratch, I doubt that its cost will be 10 times higher.
Someone is well welded on this contract. Apparently the kickbacks are not small.

[svp67]

Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi

But even making the machine from scratch, I doubt that its cost will be 10 times higher.

Sorry, but the cost of purchasing new equipment and recruiting staff, where would you write?

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Does the factory produce automatic machines (or, say, weapons)? Releases.
That means there is equipment and personnel. You just need to load production capacities.
Yes, the cost of AEK will differ from the value of Kalashnikov, but not 10 times.

[D16]

But does he even do them (automatic machines)? NSA production facilities
for the shooter are busy with machine guns. The MO will place an order for the A545, suppose. Who will perform it and where? If Kovrovites won the competition, then naturally the Ministry of Defense would have to invest in expanding production. But if there is an alternative supplier "all-in-one" it’s logical to use his services.

[Roma 1977]

As a result, the "new" Kalash is just a tuned old one. Not about that dreamed at the word "Warrior".

[D16]

If both machines really meet the requirements of the Ministry of Defense and are almost equal in characteristics, then why pay more. Especially given the ever-decreasing role of small arms as such.

[Roma 1977]

AEK has amazing accuracy when firing bursts, the Kalashnikov concept also assumed this, but in the end those Kalashs that were ordered are very different from that concept and differ little from the AK-74.

[D16]

It seems strange, but precisely because of its similarity with the Ak-74, the Ak-12 will generally appear in the army in significant quantities. Otherwise, the fate of AN-94 would have awaited him.

[Roma 1977]

This is the catch. Why do we need a "new" AK-12, which is essentially a clone of the AK-74, and not a fundamentally new system?

[D16]

You got a little excited about the clone. Personally, I believe that the layout of the new Kalashnikov MA is much steeper, but it will be more expensive with the same characteristics.

[poquello]

Quote: Roma-1977

AEK has amazing accuracy when firing bursts, the Kalashnikov concept also assumed this, but in the end those Kalashs that were ordered are very different from that concept and differ little from the AK-74.

Well, yes, the first ones in the pictures are prettier, but there is a positive moment - 54% suggest ~ 40% of combining with the concept, because with sufficient filling, a further transition is possible

[Roma 1977]

These 40% mean external tuning: increasing ergonomics in the form of a folding / sliding buttstock and functional in terms of hanging on the old structure of various peripherals. But this is not it.

[poquello]

Quote: Roma-1977

As a result, the "new" Kalash is just a tuned old one. Not about that dreamed at the word "Warrior".

) and about what?

[Roma 1977]

Purely technically about weapons, whose characteristics / effectiveness will in total surpass the AK-74 by one and a half times, that is, about weapons of a new generation, and not about restyling the machine gun of the time of the Afghan war.

[Woo dee]

What you say is called a modernization kit 6ch63 which you wanted to do first just bring 74 to upgrade, put new handles of civier, butt, cover with picatinny and send to the troops.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

If the Kovrovites won the competition, then naturally MO would have to invest in expanding production.

Now from the text of the article:

for the supply of one hundred and fifty thousand AK-12 and AK-15 assault rifles to the troops within three years

So 50 machines a year.
Total 50 / 000 = 365 machines a day.
You want to say that for the production of 137 machines a day you need to expand production?

[AllXVahhaB]

Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi

You want to say that for the production of 137 machines a day you need to expand production?

And how many automatic machines per day can the Kovrov plant produce today?

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Most likely, the data on the production capacities of the plant are classified.
But you can find data on the network, for example, on the production of PPSh-41 or DShK during the Second World War.
And then just think, taking into account modern production technologies.
I think that the result will be more than 137 machines a day.

[AllXVahhaB]

Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi

But you can find data on the network, for example, on the production of PPSh-41 or DShK during the Second World War.
And then just think, taking into account modern production technologies.

Well yes. And according to the data on the release of the T-34 at UralVagonZavod, during the Second World War, taking into account modern technologies, to think about the possible number of "Armat"

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Well, so small?
You immediately compare with the submarines of the Second World War with the Shark, and in general it will be cool.

[AllXVahhaB]

Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi

Well, so small?
You immediately compare with the submarines of the Second World War with the Shark, and in general it will be cool.

What do I have to do with it? It was you who proposed this system for evaluating modern production capacities ...

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Well then, compare the production of TT pistols in the Second World War with GSh-18, Makarov or PYa.
Then it will be correct.
I did not offer to compare the production of the Yak-9 or La-5 with the modern Su-35.

[AllXVahhaB]

Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi

Well then, compare the production of TT pistols in the Second World War with GSh-18, Makarov or PYa.
Then it will be correct.
I did not offer to compare the production of the Yak-9 or La-5 with the modern Su-35.

And what, 6P67 (AEK-971) and 6P68 (AEK-973) are produced on the same machines as PPSh-41?

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Perhaps, but unlikely.
Any machine gun, gun or rifle is an assembly in a certain way of various processed metal parts. Correctly?
They will differ in the grades of the used steels or alloys, as well as in the processing of some parts in view of the emerging technologies. But basically it is turning, milling, broaching, grinding, heat treatment, chemical. cover, well, maybe something else, I'm not a gunsmith.
Therefore, by and large, it is not important on what equipment to make weapons. If you do not take high-precision, to which neither AEK nor Kalashnikov applies.
By the way, Kalashnikov and PM (Makarov) were made in 1947 on the same machines as the PPSh.
Now it’s clear why both Browning High Power (1926 onwards) and the Yarygin Pistol can be made on equipment (machines) from the Second World War and on modern machining centers?
The main difference will be in the time of production of pistols and not much in manufacturing accuracy. But all these pistols will shoot and provide the accuracy and firing range incorporated in them by the designers, as well as provide the given penetrative ability of the bullet, its lethal force, as well as the stopping effect.

[AllXVahhaB]

Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi

Any machine gun, gun or rifle is an assembly in a certain way of various processed metal parts. Correctly?
They will differ in the grades of the used steels or alloys, as well as in the processing of some parts in view of the emerging technologies. But basically it is turning, milling, broaching, grinding, heat treatment, chemical. cover, well, maybe something else, I'm not a gunsmith.

It is evident that you are not a gunsmith. The production of small arms is, above all, stamping technology! Even with the establishment of production of AK-47 there were problems:
The main emphasis at that time was on improving the organization of production of weapons, since already at the very beginning of the manufacture of Kalashnikov assault rifles, plant No. 74 was faced with many previously unforeseen difficulties. So, despite its rather large capacities, the plant was unable to set up the production of the required number of machines in a timely manner. Obsolete equipment and imperfect production lines interfered with this. As A.A. subsequently recalled Malimon, - the AK-47 assault rifle could not be introduced into production on the old technological base. He demanded the development of new technologies. wider use of automated equipment, as well as the accumulation of new experience in the production of automatic weapons. And only thanks to the joint efforts and perseverance of the chief engineer of the plant A.Ya. Fisher, chief technologist K.N. Mamontov, production manager A.G. Kozlova in the late 1950s and early 1951s managed to solve this problem by improving fixtures and accessories, improving and automating parts of the machine park, and creating new automatic conveyor lines. Advanced technological processes were introduced - along with stamping, Izhevsk citizens switched to the on-line method of machining parts of weapons with sufficiently large tolerances and gaps, which ensured) reliable operation of the weapon in any operating conditions. The history of the Russian machine gun Monetchikov S. B.

[PROVINCIAL]

A little less, but the difference is not significant. Everything decides lobby and rollback

[D16]

Why did you decide that the Kovrovites generally have mass production of the A545?

[goose]

Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi

Well this is just the same.
But even making the machine from scratch, I doubt that its cost will be 10 times higher.
Someone is well welded on this contract. Apparently the kickbacks are not small.

Can you make AEK-971 for $ 1000? It depends on which party. Equipment upgrade will be included in the price. If you produce 5000 pieces a year, no equipment will pay off. - A machine at a price of 1 million dollars will give +200 dollars in the price of each machine. A line upgrade will cost exactly more than $ 1 million.
If you produce 500000 units, then their cost will be 3 times less.

[yehat]

Quote: Obi Wan Kenobi

10 times more expensive? They lie.

most likely true, but truth taken out of context
Kalash - has a streamlined assembly line for decades
there are dozens, if not hundreds, of patents that make manufacturing cheaper
Plus, the starting costs for the first batch of AEK are high

and if you compare THIS, you can get locally both 1 to 20 and 1 to 100.
but in fact the same AEK at the Kalashnikov plant would cost a maximum of one and a half times more expensive.

however, the author forgot to mention that AEK is somewhat heavier and this, if we recall that
equipment with a warrior weighs dofig, also an argument.
in general, about the price of the machine half-truth, which is more dangerous than lies.

[svp67]

Quote: Darth Ragozinus

Well, this is already clear. The Izhevsk people raised all for themselves. The same happened in aviation - Sukhoi crushed the same Mig for itself.

Eco you Batenka sealed it ... "Sukhoi" is now exactly the same firm as the MiG, so his attempt to "crush" it failed.

[Darth Ragosinus]

In fact, the instant pale shadow of Sukhoi. The old instant 29 and instant 31 modernize.

[svp67]

Quote: Darth Ragozinus

In fact, the instant pale shadow of Sukhoi. The old moment 29 and the moment 31 modernize

Well, the MiG-31, this is such a peak, to which "Sukhoi" still grows and grows, but the MiG made its own "35", actively engaged in heavy shock UAVs. So that he still has his word.

[Darth Ragosinus]

Even in our (Russian-language) Wikipedia a year ago it was written that the Mig 35 is a modernized instant 29. It even went in the beginning like a Mig 29 there with letters (sorry I don’t remember which ones). and now it’s an aircraft repair plant. About UAV skat, the project is closed. And the rest of their directors and deputies (Migovskys) are throwing dust in their eyes.

[svp67]

Quote: Darth Ragozinus

and now it’s an aircraft repair plant.

Aircraft repair plant located in your Vitebsk

Quote: Darth Ragozinus

Even in our (Russian-language) Wikipedia a year ago they wrote that Mig 35

Sorry, but Vicki began to play the role of a good old fence often. For that matter, the new "Su" is the same in some role, the modernization of the Su-27

[Darth Ragosinus]

And so 57? And a dry superjet?

[Darth Ragosinus]

You are right about Wikipedia. Moderators there are cleaning articles in the ideologically correct way. I noticed this.

[svp67]

Quote: Darth Ragozinus

And so 57? And a dry superjet?

also

[yehat]

superjet initially failed project
and there are few complaints against the designers of Sukhoi, but the project was doomed from the very beginning. su-57, sorry, paid in advance for many years
everything new is paid in advance
A moment in such conditions could also do something.
Sukhoi differs only in that it was not taken aback in the 90s and was able to maintain a live production line and partially related products through export.
But the fact that Sukhoi crushed almost all of the supplies to the army for himself is not right.
It was worthwhile for a moment to make a single-engine light fighter, such as the Russian version of the F-16 or the new Mig-23 (as did China and India). And so the Mig-ovskoe leadership behaved passively, without the proper initiative, resting on the laurels of what was "heard" along the way, there was a lot of slipshod work (after the tender in India they just started to stir).
And here is the result - some work, the second are taken.

I agree that Sukhoi is abusing his influence, but in the situation with the MIG, there is much more guilt on the government and the OKB leadership than anyone else, and 70 percent of his guilt.

[marshes]

Quote: yehat

It was worth making a single-engine light fighter, such as the Russian version of the f-16 or the new Mig-23 (as did China and India)

J-10, not a bad aircraft with one engine TRDDF Saturn-Lyulka AL-31FN.

[D16]

In those days when the migrants put the wrong horse on the Al-31 was very far from the current reliability. Actually on this single-engine aircraft in the Air Force and banned.

[yehat]

here you are who wrote an article here about the joy and problems of operating the Mig-23, especially its engines.
I still can’t believe that the union couldn’t equip it with a normal engine for many years

[D16]

I did not write.

I still can’t believe that the union couldn’t equip it with a normal engine for many years

Everything has a price. In the R-27-29-35 line, the resource from one modification to another was reduced. But this is the price of the unique acceleration and speed characteristics of the MiG-23.

[yehat]

what did he with these characteristics give way strongly to f-16, which has no variable geometry and only one engine?

[D16]

The MiG-23 was much inferior to the F-16 in terms of reliability and maintainability. And he also had one engine.

[marshes]

Quote: D16

In those days when the migrants put the wrong horse on the Al-31 was very far from the current reliability. Actually on this single-engine aircraft in the Air Force and banned.

there is still no statistics of falls, but the planes for the poor could rivet like a car in AvtoVAZ.

[D16]

I suspect that the MO statistics were known.

[marshes]

Quote: D16

I suspect that the MO statistics were known.

Well, the Chinese fly, or the engines are different, what is export for themselves?
Already J-10 on some engines changed what I know .1000 hours flew, although they are designed for 2000, here one 2000 is designed for aircraft with two engines.
And so the average flight hour of a combat pilot in China is 150 hours. Per year.

[D16]

Well, the Chinese fly, or the engines are different, what is export for themselves?

Between the adoption of Al-31F and J-10 for 20 years. Do not look at the assigned resource. Failure raid is important. And keep in mind that on a single-engine fighter, almost every engine failure is equivalent to the loss of an airplane, and sometimes a pilot, and in combat conditions the probability of failure is much higher.

[marshes]

Quote: D16

And keep in mind that on a single-engine fighter, almost every engine failure is equivalent to the loss of an airplane, and sometimes a pilot, and in combat conditions the probability of failure is much higher.

We know that in combat, the loss of an airplane is close to the loss of other means of self-defense.
By the way, MIG-23/27 is still being used here, but there were emergency situations like rolling out of the runway.
For security reasons, injury, we still have a squadron.

[poquello]

Quote: Darth Ragozinus

Even in our (Russian-language) Wikipedia a year ago they wrote that the Mig 35 is a modernized instant 29. It even went in the beginning like an instant 29

Well, if you wrote on Wikipedia, you yourself would have written there, why post this here, 29St is not a moment

[D16]

actively engaged in shock heavy UAVs. So that he will still say his word.

However, the hunter’s pictures indicate that the Sukhovites took up the issue more actively .

[goose]

Quote: Darth Ragozinus

In fact, a moment the pale shadow of Sukhoi

I do not agree. Mig-35, Mig-29KUB and Mig-29M2 are very decent cars.
Another thing is that to maintain the combat readiness of the Air Force, a combat aircraft with 1 engine is needed. Our country has become poor.

[Dmitry Alekseev]

In Kovrov, small arms were produced at two plants, the Degtyarevsky Plant and the Kovrovsky Mechanical Plant. Mechanical in 2008 restructured under Rosatom and the production of weapons (machine guns, machine guns, ATGM Attacks) transferred completely to Degtyarevsky. Nothing good came of this, not for the city, not for production, many specialists quit, the quality fell and the cost rose. This is the result of the contracts, though there has always been unfair competition with Izhevsk.

[poquello]

Quote: Dmitry Alekseev

In Kovrov, small arms were produced at two plants, the Degtyarevsky Plant and the Kovrovsky Mechanical Plant. Mechanical in 2008 restructured under Rosatom and the production of weapons (machine guns, machine guns, ATGM Attacks) transferred completely to Degtyarevsky. Nothing good came of this, not for the city, not for production, many specialists quit, the quality fell and the cost rose. This is the result of the contracts, though there has always been unfair competition with Izhevsk.

IMHO there is a rational grain in small batches, the process will be beaten while raw

[bunta]

Quote: Darth Ragozinus

Izhevtsy under them all raised

Concern Krivoruchko. What does Izhevtsy have to do with it?

[YOUR]

It will be better to give out products, will be ahead.
I can not vouch for accuracy, how can you vouch for it by taking the Old from the network. But I have repeatedly read that AEK-971 is a weak point in a balanced mechanism. Breaks, quickly rusts.
In the first AK samples, the fuse switch of the types of fire was so praised, in the final version for some reason they returned to what was on all previous versions. Why scolded AKM.

[Ali Kokand]

AEK machine cannot be ten times more expensive, nonsense. The percentage of 20-25% is not more, although the figure is considerable for mass production. Stagnation is the price of the pursuit of cheapness. Maybe export deliveries will somehow help them out.

[bessmertniy]

Any new production is at first a little more expensive than already debugged. But when entering a continuous production, a new machine may be equal in terms of production costs of the AK, and may become cheaper.

[yehat]

Quote: bessmertniy

it may become cheaper.

AEK will not become cheaper in any way - it is more complicated and this is a fact.
Another thing is that in expanded production the price will be slightly higher.
And Ak, with all its advantages, needs a qualitative improvement.
AEK is less reliable, they should not hammer in nails any more, but nevertheless reliability is sufficient.
But it turns out +1 essence - good behavior when shooting in bursts.
it would be good to put a high-quality barrel on a stream, and not like a "cheap" Kalash.

[goose]

Quote: yehat

it would be good to put a high-quality barrel on a stream, and not like a "cheap" Kalash.

The AK-74 chromed barrel is the envy of many competitors, which is where everything is OK. Actually for the barrel and cheap cartridges, he is valuable in the United States.
We need a revolution: a cartridge without welt and heap shooting at a distance of 400 m due to the design of weapons. Replacing the rifleman is still a penny, compared with serious weapons. New weapons in the brigade and replace gradually.

[marshes]

Yes, it would be better for an AK with a native gas vent mechanism for weapons, reliability and convenient handling for a conscript or a "partisan". I don't think that the specialist will need to, because they mostly work at short distances, there are also Marksman tanks at long distances, the same SVD.
Other if you make weapons for a new ammunition 6.5 or 6.8, there is enough short stroke of the piston for the eyes, without complicating the mechanism.

[marshes]

Why don't the same Kovrotsam bring an assault rifle, an automatic rifle under the existing caliber 6.8x43 remmington, or close 6.5x39. With a short stroke of the gas piston.
Just look around Kazakhstan, an ammunition plant is being built in the project and an arms factory. Turkmenistan Yuzayut Beretta ARX-160 in the ground forces with an inhuman price tag for 2.5 thousand raccoons killed, there are only 300 such trunks in the KZ. I think Uzbekistan also has such an arsenal.
States with money can afford it, if Berretta rides like cheese in butter.

[Archivist Vasya]

At the expense of the last paragraph about 5,45 - so many advantages, so maybe you should not completely abandon it? For example, urban battles do not require long distances and breakdown power to the detriment of mobility.

[marshes]

Quote: Archivist Vasya

At the expense of the last paragraph about 5,45 - there are so many advantages, so maybe you should not completely abandon it?

So the enemies are gradually switching to 6.8x43, and the means of protection are already confidently holding 5.45x39 and inserts and 7.62x39, at distances of 70 meters. What is now to shoot at the legs, by the way, is a rarity - everyone is taught to shoot at the center of the carcass and it is "mechanically" , and then the control?

[Archivist Vasya]

It is clear., But time flies ... on their knees, shoot on their knees!

[marshes]

Quote: Archivist Vasya

It is clear., But time flies ... on their knees, shoot on their knees!

About two years ago there was info here from these humane human rights defenders. That in Iraq, most of the dead had head injuries. You understand that they shot in the head, and those armed with M-16 A2, A4 or M4 carbines, pretty accurate weapons with a gas pipe but not suitable for long battles.
Therefore, they switched to NK 416, with a short piston stroke. But the US police in 16 states, the FBI and other services.

[Elephant]

Quote: Archivist Vasya

At the expense of the last paragraph about 5,45 - so many advantages

This is based on humane considerations. More details - https://army-news.ru/2018/10/pulya-i-plot-strasti-vokrug-545-i-556-mm/

[Doliva63]

Quote: Archivist Vasya

At the expense of the last paragraph about 5,45 - so many advantages, so maybe you should not completely abandon it? For example, urban battles do not require long distances and breakdown power to the detriment of mobility.

I didn’t understand your idea: do you propose to have 2 different machines in the army - for urban battles and for battles in the forest / field / mountains or to have 2 armies - for battles in the city and for battles in the forest / field / mountains?

[SASHA OLD]

Quote: Doliva63

I didn’t understand your idea: do you propose to have 2 different machines in the army - for urban battles and for battles in the forest / field / mountains or to have 2 armies - for battles in the city and for battles in the forest / field / mountains?

"to have two armies" sounds cooler!

[2329 Carpenter]

Quote: Archivist Vasya

At the expense of the last paragraph about 5,45 - so many advantages, so maybe you should not completely abandon it? For example, urban battles do not require long distances and breakdown power to the detriment of mobility.

Just in street battles, a breakdown force is one of the main factors.

[goose]

Quote: Archivist Vasya

At the expense of the last paragraph about 5,45 - there are so many advantages, so maybe you should not completely abandon it?

Teaching shooting from 5,45 is much easier than 7,62. Armed with the Russian Guard clearly leave.

[AshiSolo]

Lord, well, once again ... But nothing that is the opinion of specialists who are listening? If someone reads Cardin regularly, then everything is clear there. Reliability, reliability and reliability.

[Elephant]

The cartridge of 5,45X39 caliber (1974) no longer corresponds to modern realities, does not penetrate new helmets and body armor at a greater distance. Even banderlogs from Nezalezhnaya switch to a more effective 5,56x45. By the way, they have not been developing as AEK since the 70s, but are guided by the best foreign models and launch the assault rifles Fort-221 and Fort-224 - licensed copies of the Israeli Tavor rifles (TAR-21). Their Fort-401 light machine gun is a licensed copy of the Israeli Negev machine gun. The list goes on ... And our design bureaus invent all the bicycles ... and they still cannot create flexible production for mass production and cheapening of military-industrial complex products.

[marshes]

Quote: Elephant

licensed copies of the Israeli Tavor rifles (TAR-21)

Pay attention to their bul dads, there is a gas mechanism from AK, They even consider it reliable.

[Major_Vortex]

Quote: marshes

Pay attention to their bul dads, there is a gas mechanism from AK, They even consider it reliable.

Right? And the trunk, in this case, is the M-16.

[marshes]

Quote: Mayor_Vikhr

Right? And the trunk, in this case, is the M-16.

Trigger nevermind, there it depends on the turners and electroplating, chrome.
Just chose the ammunition that is in service.
Even under 7.62x39 Tavor will not be bad, because of the layout, there will be no "trotting barrel".

[Major_Vortex]

Quote: marshes

Trigger nevermind, there it depends on the turners and electroplating, chrome.
Just chose the ammunition that is in service.
Even under 7.62x39 Tavor will not be bad, because of the layout, there will be no "trotting barrel".

The Israelis made the Tavor under the NATO American patronage. Americans provide military aid to Israel and Jews save the budget on weapons. Why would they develop their own patron and against whom? "Searching table" I do not know what it is. For a long time, they strive to make barrels free-hanging, to increase the accuracy and accuracy of weapons. For the first time I hear about "trotting trunks". In addition to chrome plating of the barrel, other types of barrel coatings are now used.

[marshes]

Quote: Mayor_Vikhr

"Searching table" I do not know what it is.

This happens at the time of aiming, it does not depend biologically on the class of the shooter. There are a lot of things that depend on the breather.

[Major_Vortex]

Quote: marshes

then at the time of aiming occurs, biologically, regardless of the class of the shooter. From a breather, a lot of things depend.

E ... you are a troll. I thought you were serious When firing, the barrel of an assault rifle bends and lengthens regardless of the shooter's biology - this is not compensated by any biology and breathing techniques. We need to design a weapon in which when shooting the barrel less sausages in all directions, and that when the barrel is heated, the aiming point does not change. As a fighter at the time of the shot will be able to afford to breathe we do not know. This is a dash that teaches us to breathe low - the lower abdomen, so that the body remains stable and has a low center of gravity. But in battle, the shooting range and weapons do not always need to be improved to provide the necessary accuracy and accuracy.

[marshes]

Quote: Mayor_Vikhr

E ... you are a troll.

Cooley to the troll, last week I went to Kent to visit the ITC, he took offsets according to the marksmen at the cadets.

Quote: Mayor_Vikhr

- this is not compensated by any biology and breathing techniques.

That's for sure, especially at least 3 km to run.

Quote: Mayor_Vikhr

. We need to design a weapon in which when shooting the barrel less sausages in all directions, and that when the barrel is heated, the aiming point does not change.

It’s bul dad, though I used the Austrian steer, then there wasn’t any brand.

Quote: Mayor_Vikhr

This is a dash that teaches us to breathe low - the lower abdomen, so that the body remains stable and has a low center of gravity.

believe no, but in karate they teach the same thing, I goju-ryu, I don’t think that in other styles there is something new.

Quote: Mayor_Vikhr

But in battle, the shooting range and weapons do not always need to be improved to provide the necessary accuracy and accuracy.

6.5x39 and the barrel with a short stroke all this will provide.
The ARX - 7.62 provides a pancake even at 39x160 from Beretta, at 400 meters. Even at 100 meters, 4 out of three are knocked out of the chest mesh No. 27.

[Major_Vortex]

Quote: marshes

Cooley to the troll, last week I went to Kent to visit the ITC, he took offsets according to the marksmen at the cadets.

You also troll minuses to me. You have a minus if you feel better

Quote: marshes

It’s bul dad, though I used the Austrian steer, then there wasn’t any brand.

The bullpup also bends the barrel and lengthens when fired.

Quote: marshes

believe no, but in karate they teach the same thing, I goju-ryu, I don’t think that in other styles there is something new.

High breathing is a greater fluctuation of the chest and upper body, respectively, the oscillation of the weapon when aiming. There is also an emotional moment: when a fighter switches to low breath, he calms down and stress disappears, it is easier to concentrate on shooting. But the low center of gravity is also important when shooting, so that the position is as stable as possible for shooting, because when shooting everything is based on physical leverage: the less leverage, the less they are, and the weaker they are pressed, the more stable the position. Everything is like in martial arts, only for shooting. Low breath is not only in karate, it is in all oriental styles of martial arts, including Chinese, from which karate and other Japanese styles came. But we are about shooting now.

Quote: marshes

6.5x39 and the barrel with a short stroke all this will provide.
The ARX - 7.62 provides a pancake even at 39x160 from Beretta, at 400 meters. Even at 100 meters, 4 out of three are knocked out of the chest mesh No. 27.

More precisely, weapons that talk less when fired. This is a no brainer. Less recoil, a more advanced automation scheme, and weapon design, less barrel oscillation — a shot more accurately. A sleeve with a protruding edge has more oscillation of a weapon than a flangeless one, and a sleeve with a reduced flange has even less ... - this series can be continued indefinitely

[marshes]

Follow the bazaar, I don’t put anyone else minus on this branch.
If you are worried about the minuses, the current in FIG goes to this site.
Sissy?

[poquello]

Quote: marshes

believe no, but in karate they teach the same thing, I goju-ryu, I don’t think that in other styles there is something new.

) only do not tell Chuck Norris, otherwise something like superman fight will show

[marshes]

Quote: poquello

) only do not tell Chuck Norris, otherwise something like superman fight will show

Chuck Noris is familiar with the Shotokan-classical Karate Do, but not with the close fight that in Goju-ryu, where there is something from Ju-Do, Jiu Jitsu and Keusenkaya. Close is the Israeli Krav Maga.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: marshes

Krav Maga.

I have not even heard of this. And on what basis?

[marshes]

Quote: Mordvin 3

I have not even heard of this. And on what basis?

They didn’t hear the Krav Maga. The base, all the best from all over the world, including wrestling in the stalls, judo or sambo. A shocking technique from boxing. This is Israel.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: marshes

Base, all the best from all over the world, including wrestling in the stalls, judo or sambo.

This was called a melee. Or maybe not that ...

[marshes]

Quote: Mordvin 3

This was called a melee. Or maybe not that ..

Actually, the hand-to-hand combat is far away if there is no main atrebut of the sapper blade.
But few people are engaged at least 6 days a week, and from morning to night. Raising professionalism.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: marshes

But few people at least do 6 days a week, and from morning to night.

Well, this is stupid, in my opinion. I spent two hours in my youth. He put a cassette with Scorpions, and turned it over four times. So much so that the chandelier nunchaku gouged. A. What I wanted to say. From morning to night - it's a strain. So do not grab a heart attack for long.

[marshes]

Quote: Mordvin 3

Well, this is stupid, in my opinion. I spent two hours in my youth. He put a cassette with Scorpions, and turned it over four times. So much so that the chandelier nunchaku gouged. A. What I wanted to say. From morning to night - it's a strain. So do not grab a heart attack for long.

I five days a week, when I studied in the second shift from 10-12, this is until 1986, Ju do. Good performance and after 19.30 to 20.30 I went to the CCM or a brown belt, then We started to teach the former Karate-Do Shetakan, my ex Turners were taken for a reek. A little later, after Gju-ryu and then the local Suvorov school and military school and then the army.

[Mordvin 3]

Well. all the same overstrain felt in his own skin. Tighten up twenty times a week, and then rest a bit, and oops! already 25 times on the crossbar.

[marshes]

Quote: Mordvin 3

Well. all the same overstrain felt in his own skin. Tighten up twenty times a week, and then rest a bit, and oops! already 25 times on the crossbar.

Yes, I had small problems with weight, parents fed in childhood, they didn’t eat up. Nothing at the school after KMP managed to catch up 34 times, ten crypts and three with access to the horizontal bar, he was already surprised. He left a lot of fat in 30 days. He did physical training for 10 km at a time.
It’s good that I didn’t get to the bandits, now I would have sat a beautiful monument or 25.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: marshes

10 km did at a time.

I always had a shit on the run. And in general ... fat ... In the summer I climbed onto the horizontal bar, but I can’t do anything. Even catch up. I had to take my feet in my hands and do a little exercise. Tighten up 7 times for today. At 85 kg. kilo and sprout 167 see Puzo ate ...

[marshes]

Quote: Mordvin 3

I always had a shit on the run. And in general ... fat

The same garbage, though growing 173, recently measured, and weight 90 kg.
I still haven’t pulled myself up, a lot of problems with the old ones fell, not when. Today I went to the dentist, torn my tooth, still freezing works. Wife with parents do not touch, do not anger FIG. Small with understanding. He went to the attic, a private house, and from there I write.
He’s gotten fat, from last year there were problems with his parents and very tough, they didn’t have time to cook at home, on the way or fast food they bought or grilled chicken, there was no time to cook healthy food either. , there is a garden there and a house.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: marshes

Today I went to the dentist, I torn my tooth,

Oh, damn it, it’s better not to write about this, I can’t stand these comrades. Once, I almost sighed out the window when they drilled my tooth.

[goose]

Quote: Mordvin 3

At 85 kg. kilo and sprout 167 cm. Puzo ate ...

How do you do it? I pull myself up approximately 60-65 at the maximum on weekends, while I do not consider myself any prepared. Familiar judokas can do a lot more.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: goose

How do you do it? I pull myself up approximately 60-65 at the maximum on weekends, while I do not consider myself any prepared. Familiar judokas can do a lot more.

Well, in my youth I pulled up 25 somewhere. Then the sport abandoned, and began to drink, smoke, and so on. In August I climbed onto the horizontal bar, EKLMN, but I couldn’t catch up even once! I took a little hand in my legs, I started through, I can’t do it again, it seems to work out. But, you see, 85 kilo, with my pygmy growth, a bit too much ...

[poquello]

Quote: marshes

close fight that in Goju-ryu

and what's close to him? thai dogs?

[marshes]

The use of elbows, knees, even the pelvis. Grips and throws, breaking out of limbs, fighting in the stalls, creases, etc. ...

[SASHA OLD]

Quote: marshes

The use of elbows, knees, even the pelvis. Grips and throws, breaking out of limbs, fighting in the stalls, creases, etc. ...

plus work with small joints and in general all "non-gentlemen's" techniques are available

[marshes]

Quote: SASHA OLD

plus work with small joints and, in general, all "non-gentlemen's" techniques are available

What gentlemanly tricks, everything works to protect oneself or the client.
You are 40 steps of the Shaolin that you forgot to show around the world, and local Moscow Wushu masters Tai Chi
After all, they are not aware of what exactly is the martial wushu sanda from the Uyghurs, Kazakhs and Tajiks.

[SASHA OLD]

Now Sanda is already a pure sport, as well as Muay Thai.
Previously, Sanda (Sanda, Xanda - where else) was a "free fight" - a fight without restrictions, now - a bunch of regulations - in order to organize competitions.
The same thing happened with Muay Thai, for example: before it was a martial art - Muay Boran, then everything went into sports, they removed the 12/6 elbow strikes (12 o'clock, the arrow on the clock is at the top, 6 o'clock is the arrow at the bottom - an elbow blow from top to bottom on the back, neck, in the crown), they banned crippling techniques ... imposed restrictions, leaving what looks (for sports, entertainment is still important) is beautiful and voila - Muay Thai is a purely sporting combat
Sanda followed the same path, Kyokushinkai karate (especially his "ring" version, not on the tatami, but in the ring, the fighters fight - "Seido kai-kan karate")
now there are few real martial arts, most of the real ones are in the army, the rest - or "cut off" - for civilian use and "sports" - for competitions, but there half of the style is "lost"

[SASHA OLD]

Quote: marshes

believe no, but in karate they teach the same thing, I goju-ryu, I don’t think that in other styles there is something new.

not only in goju-ryu, in the seydo-kaikan, I’m wushu from different schools ... (from Indochina - everything goes from there), and there is a lot where breathing control comes from the lower abdomen ...
in fact - control of stress, emotions

[marshes]

Quote: SASHA OLD

not only in goju-ryu, in the setokan too, but there are many places where breathing control comes from the lower abdomen ...

And where else? Tai Chi. There are real shots where the masters lose the battle to MMA artists.

[SASHA OLD]

Quote: marshes

Quote: SASHA OLD

not only in goju-ryu, in the setokan too, but there are many places where breathing control comes from the lower abdomen ...

And where else? Tai Chi. There are real shots where the masters lose the battle to MMA artists.

any karate is just a base for today, the best base is kyokushinkai and / or seido-kaikan from karate, then you need to master parterre, karate itself now works poorly, except for KUDO (it's daido-juku, it's "furious karate ") - but this is not a separate style, but rather a system of training a fighter using cross-fit (circular training), I don't really know what taiji is, I know that in general everything is wushu (it's kung fu, it's woo-shu, it's the same kong-fu, it is "martial arts") is mainly divided into two parts: northern (more agility, sweeping movements) and southern ("power" directions, there were many fishermen, rowers, the styles were simpler but with an emphasis on " physics "), plus there are" varieties "- for" everyone "and for the" elite "and separately there was Shaolin - not like the rest of the style, in fact different types but under one general name" martial arts "- that is," wushu "
Well, of course I can be wrong and who corrects - I will be grateful

[marshes]

Quote: SASHA OLD

any karate is just a base for today, the best base is a kyokushinkai and / or a seiko-kaikan from karate, then you need to master the ground,

There is a normal Goju-ryu style that I described above. It’s really combat like Krav MAGA. It’s not a fig to invent something.

Quote: SASHA OLD

- but this is not a separate style, but rather a system of training a fighter using cross-fit (circular training), I don't really know what taiji is, I know that in general everything is wushu (it's kung fu, it's wu-shu, it's kong -fu, it is "martial arts") is mainly divided into two parts: northern (more agility, sweeping movements) and southern ("power" directions, there were many fishermen, rowers, styles were simpler but with an emphasis on "physics" ), plus there are "varieties" - for "everyone" and for the "elite" and separately there was Shaolin - not like the rest of the style, in fact different types but under the same general name "martial arts" - that is, "wushu" well, of course I can be wrong and who will correct it - I will be grateful

Yes, do not load on styles ..
There is a DIM-MAK ability to kill with one hit, even delayed but it is from fairy tales. There is from the DC comics area, about the Batman and the Shadow League.

[goose]

Quote: marshes

There is a DIM-MAK ability to kill with one blow, even delayed but this is from fairy tales.

I saw it live. Not a fairy tale, a terrible thing. But you have to train cruelly ... and all your life.

[SASHA OLD]

Quote: goose

I saw it live. Not a fairy tale, a terrible thing. But you have to train cruelly ... and all your life.

Dim Mac is from the realm of fiction

[goose]

Quote: SASHA OLD

Dim Mac is from the realm of fiction

You just have never seen it in action.
Can you do push-ups in an upright stance on 2 fingers? And this is just a stage in the training Dim-Mak. Further - tougher.

[SASHA OLD]

Quote: goose

You just have never seen it in action.
Can you do push-ups in an upright stance on 2 fingers? And this is just a stage in the training Dim-Mak. Further - tougher.

listen, once in my childhood my father gave me karate kyokushinkai, after a little over two years I had the 5th kyu (yellow belt with green stripe - half way to the black belt), I learned how to fight: at school I played the watchmen in the corridor , I realized that I could knock most of my classmates in two seconds: after two years of training, you understand how clumsy non-training people are ... then my father gave me to Shotokan - the style of accented punches and hard low stances, few series, a lot of strength and energy in shock, fighters they try to bring the whole fight under some kind of "kensei" - a super blow, in three years I reached the 4th kyu (in shotokan it is a blue belt). And then I left, on my own, consciously, into kickboxing, I was 15 years old, now I am 35, with a break of 7 years for the army, I spent my entire adult life in martial arts, cooked in this mess, for several years I have been training people in kickboxing, despite the fact that he became an insulin diabetic, was interested, read and met with different masters: boxers, hand-to-hand fighters, karate fighters and various others. Everyone, EVERYONE who has heard of dim-mak (as a blow with a "delay") unanimously says that this is nothing more than a legend. Moreover, there is not even a definition of dim-maku: whether it is such a blow, or a martial art.
Real martial arts (just like a fight without weapons, systematized, simply because the army began to steer firearms, before that they trained with weapons - cold) began to develop only in the 20th century: when the masters realized that one technique was not enough, you still need to connect strength. And the first were European boxers (then boxing was different: you could kick with your feet, for example, it has not yet become a sport), they were the first to combine boxing training with strength exercises, and the main popularizer of this was ... Bruce Lee, and this is already second half of the 20th century. All these point strikes are complete nonsense, they will work if I'm drunk in a mess and someone pokes a thread behind my ear - then yes - I can fall off my feet - "unexpected", but I won't die, it will just hurt behind my ear ...
when I was doing karate I thought "THERE !! here they are, strikes (especially in shotokan, where the emphasis is on putting all the energy into the strike, with twisting the hips)! I can beat everyone!" but it is almost impossible to carry out a good accented blow from a rigid correct stand - this was shown by sparring and competitions, when I came to kickboxing, I thought, "Well, right now I will chop everyone, the technique is honed, right now, just a moment, take the stand, zenkutsu and screw May-kettlebell into him belly ... "no one will give this moment - take the right stance - throw your legs and arms - you will fly into the corner. All these oriental "martial arts" in their purest form (except for Goju-ryu, Shirai-ryu and Shorin-ryu / Shito-ryu, which is surprising - all from Okinawa, that is, not entirely Japanese types, there are many from China in general, but this not just styles, but rather hand-to-hand combat systems, there are point effects, but they pursue a different goal - to poke fingers in the eye, for example, to squeeze out an eye, to poke a finger between the legs of a girl - yes, there is such a thing, and a guy - to twist eggs - and there is such a thing too ) do not work, they are good only as a base, a basis for further development
There is not a single example of the use of dim-mak, there is not a single proof, there are only guesses based on local legends. If this dim-mak existed, then in the information age it would "surface" unambiguously. I believe that there were and perhaps there are masters who can poke into the "sun" with their fingers so that the heart "slows down", in the left side - the spleen of the khan, in the right under the ribs - the liver will go nuts, and in the throat - the Adam's apple will sink, but this is not dim-mak ... or this is dim-mak, they just put fluff on these techniques. All this works only if you hit it unexpectedly, this time, it is practically inapplicable: if a person bursts his spleen, you will go through the article right away, and most likely, when you try to poke this master with your finger, they will immediately unscrew the finger (if he devoted his whole life to studying one technique, it means nothing he can't or can, but very badly) and shove him right into a dim-mac ...
And yes, I don’t believe that you saw the impact of this blow, even if I believed in a dim-pop, because it turns out you saw the blow, then you followed the victim ... for a week, a month, a year (he definitely didn’t drink anymore: after all if the blow was in the liver, it is important to understand that he died from the blow and not from vodka, did not fall from a height: if in the spleen, then you need to understand that when they fall they can burst ... and so on), that is, you followed the victim , they didn’t say anything to him, they understood that he must die from a top-secret blow ... and they did not inform the authorities ...
yes you are an accomplice!

[goose]

Quote: SASHA OLD

And yes, I don’t believe that you saw the impact of this blow, even if I believed in dim-pop, because it turns out you saw the blow, then you followed the victim ... week, month, year

I guess I was immersed there much deeper than you.
I did not see any obvious effects later than after 12 hours.
Dim-mak is not just a poke with your fingers.
What can Dim Mak, real facts:
Break the shaft of the spear, with the Adam's apple resting on its tip.
Pierce the skin with a finger or two fingers.
To crush vulnerable small areas of bones (a good example is a deadly point directly on the forehead, not everyone dares to beat his forehead with his fist without gloves)
Cause internal bleeding.
To cause massive necrosis in the area of ​​impact.
Tear out a rib or joint with an open fracture.
Influence on nerve points that paralyze the limbs, disrupt the functioning of internal organs and disturb breathing.

And by the way, there are non-contact methods, go to the performance of a specific Chinese circus that shows this, feel like they are poking in your heart without touching. Extremely unpleasant sensation.

[SASHA OLD]

Quote: goose

I guess I was immersed there much deeper than you.

maybe I don’t argue what they were doing?

Quote: goose

I did not see any obvious effects later than after 12 hours.

you can just throw a man on the floor and his heart muscle will explode, he will live for several more days, if you don’t provide help and diagnose correctly - death, this was in our unit: two conscripts had a fight in the barracks, one threw the other, he his nose broke in response, reconciled by the evening. The one who was abandoned in the evening became ill, at night - the temperature, the next evening he died, something like a rupture of the heart muscle. That is, theoretically, you can hit the region of the heart and the same thing will happen, but this is not a dim-pop, it's just a good hit.

Quote: goose

Break the shaft of the spear, with the Adam's apple resting on its tip.

specific training, maybe some kind of trick, but I'm inclined to think that all the same, long specific training

Quote: goose

Pierce the skin with a finger or two fingers.

and I can hit the car door with two fingers joined together (middle on top, index on the bottom in a half-cross) and paint will fly off and there will be a visible dent, I accidentally found out that I can do that. But this is not dim-mak, most likely it is the Chinese "diamond finger" technique - quite well-known but applicable in few places.

Quote: goose

To crush vulnerable small areas of bones (a good example is a deadly point directly on the forehead, not everyone dares to beat his forehead with his fist without gloves)

if I hit the back of the hand of another person when it is lying on the table, I will break his bones, but where are the "vulnerable small areas of bones" on the forehead? lobeshnik - one of the strongest places on the head, if not the strongest, if there is a point there, then it is "behind the armor"

Quote: goose

Cause internal bleeding.

any good blow to the body or to the head can trigger parenchymal bleeding

Quote: goose

To cause massive necrosis in the area of ​​impact.

what is so right at once necrosis ?? - this is impossible, maybe first, for example, a hematoma and only then, if it is extensive and cannot be pumped out, then necrosis? Well, recently this happened to my acquaintance - he grabbed him over the head while sparring in the gym, in the evening in the bath he began to piss and shit, his wife panicked, calls me, I replied that yes, there was sparring, there was a blow, he passed out, "call an ambulance urgently ! " I say - there is a hematoma in the head, a little more - tissue necrosis (necrosis) ... pumped out, there was no crime, an accident, but here's an example - internal bleeding and, without pumping, peritonitis and necrosis ...

Quote: goose

Tear out a rib or joint with an open fracture.

to pull out - well, if a person does not resist (or is generally tied) and the one who tears has the physical characteristics of a weightlifter and "steel" fingers, and in life a "butcher-maniac" - why not? - and where did you see it and why do you refer it to dim-mac? In life, I can't imagine how this is possible: we fight such a kid, here he deftly repels my blow, dives to the ribs, and what? - vomit me one or the other? and then vomit the elbow joint ..?))))

Quote: goose

Influence on nerve points that paralyze the limbs, disrupt the functioning of internal organs and disturb breathing.

the limbs are blocked by pressure on the nerve points, right, but it is important to paralyze? they did it to me! The fact is that I have a high threshold for alkaloids: morphine takes me very badly, it is difficult to put them to sleep for an operation, but I have undergone enough operations, and when I had a fractured hand and a part of the radius on my right hand, I was given a "blockade" - under the armpit with a special knitting needle to the lymph node - I did not feel my hand until the knitting needle was pulled out, the Elizarov apparatus was already installed (the bones were drilled - did not care), but I did not feel anything and could not move my hand all this time, then of course it hurt a lot ... Well, it looks like this, if you press there, it will hurt - after all, there is a lymph node, the place where the nerve and the blood vessel are, both are pinched, this is not a secret and has long been used in official medicine, yes, you can beat it there - effectively, for example, on the neck there are also such places, but paralysis is unlikely to happen. You see, in order to hit like that, you have to train, and train not to dim-mak any, but at least correctly, accurately and strongly to learn how to hit with the edge of the palm, but this is not dim-mak, by the way, the effect is achieved with a stick.

Quote: goose

And by the way, there are non-contact methods

no, there are no such methods

Quote: goose

Feel poked in your heart without touching. Extremely unpleasant sensation.

tried to show - everyone was neighing.
these are fakes.
if it were true, it would be known.
Understand: all these "jokes" about the "deadly techniques of ancient ninja masters" are nonsense, they are cultivated for us, Europeans, often just to increase interest in the region in terms of tourism, such an aura of mystery, antiquity, secrecy and lethality is induced ("I I'll teach you, but don't show it to anyone and don't test it on anyone - it's dangerous! "- and if you try to perform it on someone, most likely he'll give it in the eye) ... it rolled before, when people found out about such books, now in our time any person professionally engaged in martial arts will explain that all these are separate techniques and / or tricks that have no direct relation to martial arts, indirect - yes, direct - no.
I can bet that I will pierce that kid with a spear whose "three Shaolin men cannot pierce, standing on the edge of the dao sword", and I will just take it and pierce it, because I understand that this is training - at a certain angle strictly to a certain place with a certain increase in effort he can hold back a sharp spear with this point on his throat, but now I will go out of the hall onto the stage, take a spear and pierce this master, even with one hand, shallowly, a centimeter - laugh purely

[goose]

Quote: SASHA OLD

maybe I don’t argue what they were doing?

Traditional Shaolin Wushu. (not to be confused with sports)
By the way, the "diamond finger" is one of the last stages of Dim-Mak training. A characteristic feature of training is piercing a bag of metal filings.

Quote: SASHA OLD

Understand: all these "jokes" about the "deadly techniques of ancient ninja masters"

Have you talked with real ninjas? I had to ... with one.
He poked a standard leather punching bag and a Pobeda hood with his fingers.

[poquello]

Quote: SASHA OLD

separately was shaolin

) there were two of them, you can certainly believe Wikipedia and the local kung fu researcher, but southern meditation techniques were cultivated there

[SASHA OLD]

and MMA when steel is style? this is a preparation method for certain competition rules, at least for now

[marshes]

Quote: SASHA OLD

and MMA when steel is style?

MMA is a style, all possible methods of struggle are combined into one to put the opponent on the octogon.
Remember the first fights that showed, there were specialists from the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, everything was interrupted by a sambo wrestler from Russia Oleg Taktarov.

[SASHA OLD]

Quote: marshes

MMA is a style

no it's a system

[poquello]

Quote: SASHA OLD

breath control comes from the lower abdomen ..

breathing should follow the thought, and not sit below the abdomen

[SASHA OLD]

Quote: poquello

breathing should follow the thought, and not sit below the abdomen

these are already "higher matters"))) more philosophy, probably, this should be read separately, and understood

[poquello]

Quote: SASHA OLD

this should be read separately

) it was necessary to study it, breathing in dantian (qi-hai) helps to calm thoughts, meditation and develop harmonious circulation of blood (qi) in the body, while high-speed movements are associated with short-term changes in smooth circulation.

[SASHA OLD]

Quote: poquello

) it was necessary to study it, breathing in dantian (qi-hai) helps to calm thoughts, meditation and develop harmonious circulation of blood (qi) in the body, while high-speed movements are associated with short-term changes in smooth circulation.

half of this is understandable at the usual instinctual level: breathing more evenly - you calm down, pressure is equalized, etc.
I pay tribute to the Eastern teachings, but I realized long ago: a lot (not all but a lot) from there is either an obvious thing in itself, or they "threw fluff" on it

[Elephant]

Nobody disputes the reliability of the AK mechanism. But the Bull-Pup layout allows you to reduce the size of the machine gun, improve the balance and accuracy of automatic fire. This scheme is used in a number of rifles of many armies: in the British Armed Forces it is L85, French - FAMAS, Israeli - Tavor, Austrian - Steyr AUG. By the way, the Banderlog designers, when creating the Malyuk assault rifle, initially wanted to simply modify the Kalashnikov assault rifle, but the work resulted in a new type of small arms, in which only the barrel and receiver were used from the AK.

[marshes]

Quote: Elephant

Nobody disputes the reliability of the AK mechanism. But the Bull-Pup layout allows you to reduce the size of the machine gun, improve the balance and accuracy of automatic fire. This scheme is used in a number of rifles of many armies in the world - in the British armed forces it is L85, French - FAMAS, Israeli - Tavor, Austrian - Steyr AUG. By the way, the Banderlog designers, when creating the Malyuk assault rifle, initially wanted to simply modify the Kalashnikov assault rifle, but the result of the work was a new type of small arms, in which only the barrel and receiver were used from the AK.

But this is not a weapon for the POLYA. Because of his "armpit", a lot of time is wasted on changing the store. But for the city and the settlement, that's it.

[Major_Vortex]

Quote: Elephant

improve balance and accuracy of automatic fire.

How can a bullpup scheme improve weapon balancing? The optimal balance of the weapon is when the center of inertia of the machine is approximately between the arms holding the machine, so that the machine behaves more steadily when shooting. When the barrel channel is coaxial to the butt, and the centers of mass of the moving parts of the automation are on the same axis as the barrel channel and as close to the barrel as possible in the lateral projection, in order to avoid the occurrence of unnecessary forces when firing, which interfere with precise aiming fire, and it is advisable to hold the arms closer in height machine to increase the stability of the machine when shooting with hands.
In bulppapps, the mass of the machine is concentrated in the rear of the machine. Already have a bias back. In addition, the trigger is located far from the trigger, and it is more difficult to achieve high-quality descent. Bullpup is good for its compactness, but it is far from without problems. A short weapon is very good. But the ideal bullpup has not yet been created.

[Elephant]

Quote: Mayor_Vikhr

A short weapon is very good. But the ideal bullpup has not yet been created.

There is a problem, the so-called. "back balance". It can be partially compensated by the use of a muzzle brake (+70 gr.) To reduce the force of recoil and toss of the barrel when firing a shot from an automatic weapon.

[Major_Vortex]

Quote: Elephant

There is a problem, the so-called. "back balance". It can be partially compensated by the use of a muzzle brake (+70 gr.) To reduce the force of recoil and toss of the barrel when firing a shot from an automatic weapon.

To build up a mass of weapons is not a problem. The problem is to reduce it, but so that the weapon continues to shoot and hit.
Deterioration of the balance of weapons - this will be more muscle involved in the shooting, it is more difficult to hold the weapon and send an accurate shot, slower reaction and control of the weapon by the shooter, fatigue from shooting will increase, and accuracy and efficiency will drop. I am for the maximum-licked physical model of weapons in the database. And on it already to create iron. And to improve the cartridge, and not sit on the cartridge from the 19th century, when it is already the 21st century in the yard.
Ammunition and weapons for them are infinitely improved. Modern wars are fought with modern weapons and ammunition. You should not be losers. General's dachas also can not accelerate the victory. We need to improve ammunition and weapons for them.

[SASHA OLD]

Quote: Elephant

There is a problem, the so-called. "back balance". It can be partially compensated by the use of a muzzle brake (+70 gr.) To reduce the force of recoil and toss of the barrel when firing a shot from an automatic weapon.

just take and shoot first with AK - 74 and then immediately with AKS74U: the difference is heaven and earth, if you shoot in bursts ...
the best balance is when the center of gravity is between two hands but is slightly shifted forward, then when shooting there will be a better result, given that there is a "native and proven" DTK.
bullpup - for car crews, police operations, operations in buildings ...
the classic layout in most cases still drives, and "Lashka" ("L85A1" Britovskaya) - something else ... ... clearly

[yehat]

but it’s worth adding that the French and the Chinese, and the British, and the brand, frankly speaking, are not the main weapon in Israel now refuse bull-pops.
And in the richest country and one of the most "shooters" if someone does not understand - the United States, there are no bullpups at all and are not expected

[Chever]

Among the reasons for the failure of the Izhevsk project were called not only the technical flaws of the machine, made from scratch, but also the lack of adaptability to the technical processes of the enterprise

It is more likely that the plant is not adapted to the production of weapons made from scratch, and not vice versa. For this is a long-standing problem of our producers - hellish flour when put into mass production with eternal whining about "This is very, very, very, very ... very difficult and expensive to launch into a series !!! 11"

[Samara_63]

6P67 (AEK-971) and 6P68 (AEK-973) are better in all respects, they initially won the competition by presenting the machine gun and sniper rifle as well, first of all except the machine gun ... but now this information is being covered up ... apparently someone got a kickback. ..

[Strelich]

The article clearly says:

the new AK-12 and AK-15 assault rifles were no better than the Kovrov models 6P67 and 6P68, differences in combat effectiveness were extremely small.

AEK in the final competition, as we see, is not so impressive superior
In these conditions, the decision to massively purchase cheaper, but slightly inferior to competitor an automaton is rational.

[2329 Carpenter]

I would take AKM for literally all cases and situations.
Will not fail.
Nowhere and never.
And this is the main thing.

[erased]

Even at the Army-2017 exhibition, they talked about a long barrel for AM-17. An ordinary machine gun would have come out, though only under a 5,45x39 cartridge. But it is possible to do under 7,62. How successful will it be - HZ.

[John22]

Again save on a normal machine for a fighter. Neither convenience nor sight. Again, click the one-way fuse and fold the magazine by hand. Swung a hundred thousand, and hit a hundred rubles!

[antikilller55]

I agree about the transition to a 7.62 mm caliber, but what is better and whether there is a need for two machine guns that have been simultaneously adopted for service will definitely not speak out, none of them were in my hands unfortunately.

[bmv04636]

The video is full of inaccuracies, but the question Kovrovsky AEK exactly the same hedgehog tests pass?

[akm8226]

Anecdote in the topic:
- Have you seen the new film Kusturica?
- Saw, they say good.

Citizens - you argue about nothing. None of us, including myself, know neither the cost of production nor the manufacturing process for both trunks. If I were provided with this data, I would absolutely definitely say which automatic machine is more technologically advanced and cheaper in production - this is my profession in the end. But since this is not, it is called fortune-telling on coffee grounds.
I can only say one thing - from the point of view of the technologist, that is, me, AK has a huge advantage. This is an absolutely proven design and manufacturing technology, brought almost to the ideal.
That is why AK is cheaper. It should be so.

[Tigerclaw-x]

Don't skimp on weapons. Even at the shooter. There were incidents. Mosinka was taken because it is "cheaper", Lee Enfield and Mauser cover it as a tortoise god in ALL parameters. I have all three: Czech VZ-24, Enfield 4MK2, Enfield 2A1, and FINNISH M39 mosinka. So of these three, the mosinka is the worst. And accuracy, and rate of fire, and convenience. What is one fuse worth? One bolt position is worth it ... We have adopted the Zis-3 and other guns for PMV shells "because there are a lot of shells, it will be cheaper" ... Well, how long can you step on the same rake? You will pay with the blood of your soldiers. However, for the Vlasov government of a "young country with a 20-year-old democracy" where "before the advent of Christianity, creatures a little different from animals lived" such an approach is natural.

[Major_Vortex]

The correct comment. But here for such a minus. Because it’s easier for the idiots to wiggle than to start thinking with their head. I am also to a certain extent a cheer patriot, but still not up to the pen, like some local idiots.
Already now it is possible to create a much more advanced small-arms automatic weapon than similar weapons of the previous generations, when the basic schemes and components of automatic and self-loading weapons were only invented and tested, and the technological base often did not allow us to do what the weapons designers wanted to do.

But in Russia in peacetime, many people prefer to steal, and before the leadership to shrug in order to "be on the board." And when trouble (war) comes, they begin to count the corpses and think with their heads, and the thieves-uryakalka are the first to receive firing articles.

In the USSR, the weapon culture of the population was killed for 70 years. The quality of small arms fell every year. A person who shoots 3 rounds every six months will never choose a high-quality weapon for the army, but will choose a cheap one in order to report on success in "saving" funds. The population is deprived of the right to buy weapons and cannot vote with their wallet for good weapons. The state defending itself from its own population turns out to be defenseless in the face of real threats, and unviable.

... Meanwhile, arms progress is underway, the knowledge base is accumulating, and engineering technologies are developing. But in the post-USSR they live back in the 50s of the 20th century, when AK was an advanced and ingenious design invention.

[Tigerclaw-x]

The problem, by the way, is not in the AK. And how it is done. The long-stroke gas piston system itself is more than viable (FN FNC). They just saved on AKs wherever possible. But Galil with his milled receiver (the same AK, by the way, technically), it is not only just as reliable, it is more accurate and, by the way, more convenient. Thumb fuse translator on the left side of the pistol grip, like in Polish Beryl. There would be a desire. And he simply does not have Rossiyansky guns. It can be more in the forehead - we strengthen the receiver and shove a thicker barrel. Accuracy, predictably increases. Meet this Boar (I have 15 of these at home in different calibers). And Saiga M. But miracles do not happen. Cheapness, reliability, weight, price, accuracy. Well, you can't win everywhere. By the way, the sofa experts can minus me right before St. Kondraty comes to them. You guys, even Hitler couldn't teach you anything. As we say "consider the source of disapproval". Let them minus further. The situation will not change for you. "A jay will not become a nut, even if your editor would put it in his pants" - Yaroslav Hasek

[Major_Vortex]

Kalash is better than FN and Kovrovtsa. But when they say that Kalashnikov is everything and it is better to do nothing better, then this is a lie. Today in the world there are two clear leaders among automatic rifles or assault rifles: the AK family and the AR-15 family - already on the basis of these two rifles (assault rifles) you can create a more advanced model. And if you connect all the power of modern engineering, you can do even better.

If the case rested on a cartridge, then make a cartridge with a reduced flange, not 7,62 mm, but 7 mm caliber, disperse the bullet even more, make a hardened bullet core, as it should be for fighting bulletproof vests - get already more advanced and modern ammunition. Design the sleeve so that it works well in a wide range of temperatures, does not wedge in the chamber of an automatic weapon and does not have excess mass - so that the cartridge conquers the market for a long time, it was successful. Caliber 7 mm - successful.
Under the new ammunition, begin designing a new generation of machine guns. Huge prospects open up if you use science and the entire accumulated arms of the world of arms weapons of knowledge and patents. Something new will be invented along the way - this is a natural creative process. A Kalash leave for the militia for now. Yes, and it is necessary to rearm the army gradually, in stages, because industry does not make sense in a short time to produce a huge number of machine guns, and then fire the workers.
A more adequate arms legislation would solve a lot of problems with the employment of gunsmiths and the running of new calibers and schemes by the weapons community - here it is also time for lawmakers to stop being afraid of their people as paranoid as the old p.u.d.s. of the Politburo were afraid of it progressively clamping gun laws in the USSR.
No one to give a command to start working? I give a command!

[Major_Vortex]

Quote: Tigerclaw-x

Sir, do not reinvent the wheel.

So are you like the local "Horse in the Coat" who offers to buy all the Glocks and "close the question"? This is not an option for real men. Glock is now losing ground to sigzauer. You need to make your own weapon, which will be the best. But do not chase after other people's products and pray to them to God.
The communists were afraid to make precise weapons, because they planned to arm "stupid peasants". The paradox is that in the USSR the literacy of the population was constantly growing, but the weapons were designed in oak and for oaks. For SVD they took a cartridge from the 19th century, because it was too lazy to raise the fifth point and make a more modern cartridge.

You need to start a new weapon with a new cartridge. 7 mm is the optimal caliber. The case is bottle-shaped, but with a reduced flange - this will be a new generation of ammunition. I wrote the rest above. Grendels and American Rashn are 7,62X39 mm ammunition. Now you can make better cartridges and weapons for them. A competently shaped bottle sleeve for automatic weapons to work reliably, and of sufficient volume to be in demand conditionally both in the north and in the Sahara. 5,45x39 mm, you can also reduce the caliber in order to get a more accurate and light weapon, make a case with a reduced flange and for a small-caliber cartridge. But you need to start with the transition from 7,62 mm to 7 mm for the machine.

[Major_Vortex]

Quote: Tigerclaw-x

I’d at least ask what my favorite pistol is before I start talking.

I’m not talking. I just don't care. The US Army has tested the new sigzauer "p320" and the Glock. The 320 outperforms the Glock for most requirements. About shoals of some, including expensive whitefish, I know. But I don't care, because I will never support another Korobochkin, who, instead of developing the Russian arms industry, buys foreign weapons, and quietly puts the otkatik offshore. In the United States, the 320th Army preferred the Glock - the Glokoman have permanent mourning and an attempt to get rid of the Glock, and the search for the 320th at a tasty price. The best weapons are produced for the army, and all those who are trained are chasing the "army".

If you didn’t have a gun, but a machine gun, then you would argue that your machine gun is the best. But the army needs an even better machine gun. So that you wait for the moment when it will be released to the civilian market, sell yours and run for a new one. It will be better for Russia, right ?:

[Major_Vortex]

Quote: Tigerclaw-x

You did not understand. Chz75 is my personal pistol. And in the service they gave me M16A2

I wrote above that a new generation assault rifle should be created primarily on the basis of AK and AR-15 - because these are the best assault rifles in terms of the complex of technical solutions and weapon technologies used in them. The remaining automata of the world are repelled by these two by design

[Major_Vortex]

Quote: Tigerclaw-x

As for the machine gun cartridge. Why exactly 7? Why not 6.5, why not 6.8 or even 6.66mm? Imagine? Cartridge of caliber 6.66 SLAYER.

7 mm I chose a successful time-tested caliber. He compared different calibers and types of bullets for different types of game, ballistics, cartridge accuracy, cartridge efficiency. 7 mm is better than 7,62 mm in all respects, second only in slaughter against the largest game, over 150 kg (a person is conventionally up to 120-140 kg maximum). Against a moose and a bear, the machine gun will come out too heavy and the army will reject such immediately. In terms of accuracy, range of aimed, effective fire and direct fire, 7 mm exceeds 7,62 mm, and has a comfortable recoil. Smaller calibers can also fly far, but they lose their effectiveness against game earlier - approximately 200 m, against a game comparable to humans in weight and dimensions. A man for a machine gun is also "game".
The American has a 6,8 mm bullet diameter of just 7 mm. In the United States, conditionally 270th, 280th and 7 mm calibres are all plus or minus 7 mm. Less is already 6,5 mm, 6,35 mm, 6 mm, 5,6 mm ... 4,5 mm. And 300 gauges and higher are located above, and this is our 7,62 mm and higher. 7 mm is considered the best if you do not need to bring down a large moose and a bear. But there are also 7 mm calibers on a moose with a bear, like the 7 mm Remington Magnum - but this is a very large sleeve. The best against moose and bear are the overclocked 300s, that is, magnums in caliber 7,62 mm, but they already have very strong and unpleasant returns. And even larger calibers for the largest bears. An assault rifle needs a cartridge with an acceptable return against a person, and this is from 75 kg, up to a maximum of 140 kg. But long-range and accurate.

[Catfish]

It's hard to disagree about Mosinka. Enfield did not have a chance to try, but there was an opportunity to compare with Mauser. And it makes no sense to compare them, as, for example, Japanese tanks of the Second World War with the same T-34, or "Panther". Yes, Mauser was not copied anywhere, riveted all over the world. Yes, and the production of TT is the same story, there was a ready-made cartridge of the same Mauser, suitable for caliber 7,62, so they launched the pistol into production, because, on the contrary, it was cheaper - defective barrels from rifles and machine guns went to TT. And before the war, a competition was announced to replace the pistol, but they did not have time.

[Sergey74]

Quote: Tigerclaw-x

However, for the Vlasov government of a "young country with a 20-year-old democracy" where "before the advent of Christianity, creatures a little different from animals lived" such an approach is natural.

That is, the whole opus was just for such an ending? You don’t have a sweetheart here, but you need a political training ground) Poputalisss)

[aries2200]

dangerous trend .. when not the designer wins but the administrative resource

[Lieutenant Colonel of the USSR Air Force in stock]

“In preliminary and state tests, our machine gun showed itself, to put it mildly, no worse than a Kalashnikov,” says the deputy chief engineer - chief designer of the direction Andrei Makhnin to a RIA Novosti correspondent. “Including in terms of reliability. They fired in difficult conditions, in dust, in the rain, in heat and frost, they threw weapons on the concrete floor. The assault rifle worked flawlessly. And in terms of accuracy of fire, the A-545 and A-762 surpassed the AK-12 and AK-15. "" Our products are a little more complicated in design and more expensive to manufacture - explains Makhnin. - If the AK can be assembled and disassembled by every Russian who has not skipped OBZh at school, then the A-545 and A-762 will have to be retrained. . If suddenly there is a war, an army machine gun must be produced in large quantities. But we still have a new machine gun, moreover, intended for more experienced shooters than conscripts. " The officers who tested the novelty did not immediately, but realized all its advantages.

[Babalaykin]

The article could be called this: AEK - without a chance of victory

[Tigerclaw-x]

Quote: Sergey74

Quote: Tigerclaw-x

However, for the Vlasov government of a "young country with a 20-year-old democracy" where "before the advent of Christianity, creatures a little different from animals lived" such an approach is natural.

That is, the whole opus was just for such an ending? You don’t have a sweetheart here, but you need a political training ground) Poputalisss)

Sir, you are ignorant. The first pearl about the "young country" is from your Nedimon, the nanopresident. The second pearl about the coming of Christianity is the pearl of your own Ayatollah Gundyaev.

[Tigerclaw-x]

Quote: Lieutenant Colonel USSR Air Force in stock

“In preliminary and state tests, our machine gun showed itself, to put it mildly, no worse than a Kalashnikov,” says the deputy chief engineer - chief designer of the direction Andrei Makhnin to a RIA Novosti correspondent. “Including in terms of reliability. They fired in difficult conditions, in dust, in the rain, in heat and frost, they threw weapons on the concrete floor. The assault rifle worked flawlessly. And in terms of accuracy of fire, the A-545 and A-762 surpassed the AK-12 and AK-15. "" Our products are a little more complicated in design and more expensive to manufacture - explains Makhnin. - If the AK can be assembled and disassembled by every Russian who has not skipped OBZh at school, then the A-545 and A-762 will have to be retrained. . If suddenly there is a war, an army machine gun must be produced in large quantities. But we still have a new machine gun, moreover, intended for more experienced shooters than conscripts. " The officers who tested the novelty did not immediately, but realized all its advantages.

Do you have there, conscripts all downs or victims of parental alcoholism? Damaging? At us, sergeants in the bootcamp teach you to disassemble the assembly and maintenance of the M4. And even, for the most part, not very well-educated blacks and Latinos somehow cope. And not in a year or two but very, very fast. What do you have for conscripts there who can’t give AK anything more difficult? Or is it you sergeants instructors from binges do not get out just can not train?