Prospects for the domestic non-nuclear submarine fleet. What will happen to the 677 Lada project?

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The last time the author returned to the topic of non-nuclear submarines of the Russian Navy in January was 2018, that is, more than a year ago. Let's see what has changed since that time.

So, a year ago, the foundation of our submarine non-nuclear forces was 15 diesel-electric submarines of the 3rd generation of Project 877 Halibut, of which, according to the author, 12 were part of fleet, and 3 - under repair. Unfortunately, the author was too optimistic in his assessment. The fact is that two diesel-electric submarines of the Pacific Fleet, "St. Nicholas the Wonderworker" and "Nurlat", which he considered "ready for the campaign and battle," were in fact waiting for repairs at the Dalzavod. Moreover, one of the diesel-electric submarines, which he considered to be being repaired, apparently also ended up in a crap. We are talking about the submarine "Yaroslavl", which served in the Federation Council.





The ship was planned to be supplied for medium repair with modernization back in 4 2016 quarter, but apparently due to various crises and revisions of the budget of the Ministry of Defense, there was no money for it. As a result, diesel-electric submarines were decommissioned, but repairs to Yaroslavl have not yet begun.

Thus, in fact, at the beginning of 2018, the Russian Navy had 10 "Paltus" in the ranks, 3 in the sludge and 2 - under repair. What has changed?

From the good: in March 2018, the repair of the Dmitrov diesel-electric submarine was completed and it returned to the Baltic Fleet. The rest of the situation predictably worsened - one of the oldest boats of this type, the Vyborg, left the system and was waiting for the conversion to the museum ship. That we will add museum ships is just fine, but even the failure of the old boat, given their overall shortage in the Russian Navy, is of course upsetting.

Thus, for today, the 14 “Halibus” is left, of which the 3 of the oldest boats (put into operation in 1988) are in a sludge, which they are unlikely to ever leave. Moreover, their only "same age", Vyborg, which until recently remained a part of the BF, also "retired." Most likely, that on this story The “original” 877 project to which all these 4 ships in the Russian Navy belonged should be considered complete: the remaining boats that are part of the fleet are modifications of the 877 project (877LPMB, 877М, 877EPМ and 877В).

It can be said that in the 2019 the fleet has 11 “Halibus”, of which 10 are in service: 6 serve in the Far East, 3 in the Northern Fleet and 1 in the Baltic. The Black Sea “Alrosa” is being repaired in Sevastopol, and its return to the fleet is expected in 2019. Everything would have been fine, but it was originally planned to complete the repair in 2015, then in 2017, then in 2018. And now they promise to hand over the boat this year. Well, let's hope that this promise will still be fulfilled, all the more so because the leadership of the Russian Federation has nevertheless indicated the restoration of the shipbuilding capacities of the Crimea as one of the most important tasks - maybe after that something will get off the ground.

If “Alrosa” is still returned to the fleet, it will leave the Black Sea and go to the Baltic Sea so that the total number of diesel-electric submarines of the Baltic Fleet again, as before the departure of Vyborg “retired”, is 2 units. Then the Black Sea Fleet will completely lose the diesel-electric submarines of the 877 project, but this is just unimportant, because during the 2014-16 period. He received on arms 6 more modern and powerful ships project 636.3. In essence, today the Black Sea Fleet is the strongest in the diesel-electric submarines among the 4-s military fleets of the Russian Federation.



In one iteration of the HPN 2011-2020, the construction of another 6 diesel-electric submarine of the Pacific Fleet 636.3 project was announced. The need for this was realized after it became clear that the serial construction of the latest XDUMX diesel submarines of the 4 project’s Lada generation could not be deployed before the start of the 677s, and perhaps never at all, because the headboat faced a huge number of problems that absolutely did not want to be solved.

As is known, the 636.3 boats, for all their merits, were modernized Varshavyanka, which themselves were the export version of the Paltus. These ships are better and stronger than the remaining diesel-electric submarines of the 877 project, but of course they are no longer at the cutting edge of military technological progress. It is legitimate to say that the boats of the 636.3 project are morally obsolete. Nevertheless, it is obvious that the "Halibut" is not so long left to be in the ranks, because even the most "young" boat of this type, the "Mogocha", has been serving for a quarter of a century. And, since the serial construction of the 677 project did not work out, the resumption of the production of 636.3 diesel-electric submarines for the PF was completely uncontested.

However, plans are one thing, and their implementation is completely different. It became apparent that the giant planned spending on LG 2011-2020. in the amount of 20 trillion rubles, most of which should be “mastered” in the period of 2016-2020, the country is not capable of. As a result, the leadership of the Russian Federation was forced to abandon the LG of 2011-2020, replacing it with a new LG of 2018-2027. Unfortunately, the details of the new state armament program have not been disclosed in the wide press; only one thing is known about it - its funding will be much more modest than planned for the previous LG. However, a spoon of honey was also present in the ointment - it was planned to stay at the achieved level, that is, the cost of LG IO 2018-2027. it was calculated that it was worse than it is now, the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation will not be funded.

However, since we were talking about funding restrictions, then, naturally, there were concerns about the fate of the 6 diesel-electric submarines of the 636.3 project for the Pacific Fleet. Moreover, despite the obvious release of the production capacity of the Admiralty Shipyards, after the construction of the Black Sea diesel-electric submarines, the entire 2 of the new ship was laid. It is about the B-274 "Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky" and about the B-603 "Volkhov", the official bookmark of which was held on 28 July 2018. The author of this article seriously began to fear that the two boats would be limited to ...

But it seems that everything can still end well. So the first one is good news: 28 March 2019. The launch ceremony of the 636.3 head-of-cell diesel-electric submarines for the Pacific Fleet took place.



Photos from the ceremony of the descent of the B-274 "Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky"


But the most pleasant thing is that the bmpd blog in the article devoted to this joyful event also said that the construction of the next two diesel-electric submarines of the same project had already begun, and that the ships that received the name "Magadan" and "Ufa", are at the stage of forming blocks and conducting hydraulic tests ". The official bookmark will take place later, in 2019, and bmpd reports that the specified dates are in full compliance with the previously signed contract for the construction of this series of diesel-electric submarines.

Thus, it can be stated that at least 4 DEPTs from 6 planned will still be built and will be part of the Russian Navy. But with two extreme ships of the series, the situation is not so straightforward - it is only known that the fifth submarine is planned to be called “Mozhaisk”, and the name of the sixth ship has not yet been approved, and there is no information about their upcoming laying. But, oddly enough, it sounds, it is quite possible that this is not at all sad, and the most joyful news.

It's all about the progress of the diesel-electric submarines project 677 "Lada".

The above-mentioned “Halibut”, like the “Varshavyanka” created on their basis, were the diesel-electric submarines of the 3-generation, that is, of the same technological level as the American atomic “Los Angeles” and the Soviet “Pikes-B”. At the same time, both "Halibut" and "Varshavyanka", of course, were inferior in their characteristics to their atomic "older sisters": they had a much more modest underwater speed, incomparably lower autonomy, relatively weak sonar complexes ... But for all that "Paltus "And" Varshavyanka "had one but only, but a tremendous advantage: much less noise.

As a result, under certain conditions, the diesel-electric submarines could play the role of a highly efficient “submarine hunter” - patrolling in a given area, “Halibut” was quite capable of detecting “Los Angeles” before the more powerful American Atomic Gunner finds a quieter domestic non-nuclear submarine . And, again, the diesel-electric submarines of 877 and 636 projects, taking advantage of their low noise level, in some situations could attack an enemy ship's order more effectively than the same Schuk-B. In general, our non-nuclear submarines completely deserved the nickname "Black Hole". And besides, the diesel-electric submarines in terms of size and cost are much more modest than the multi-purpose submarine and this, of course, also mattered.

But scientific and technological progress does not stand still. The USSR and the United States have begun to create multi-purpose submarines of the next, 4-th generation: we had it "Ash", in America - "Sivulf", and then "Virginia". Against them, the 3 generation diesel-electric submarines no longer had the former advantage (and most likely did not have any advantage at all), so the question of creating a new type of diesel-electric submarines, whose combat capabilities allowed it to occupy the same niche in relation to the Sivulfs, was on the agenda. and “Ash”, which “Halibut” occupied in relation to “Los Angeles” and “Schuk”.

Unfortunately, the creation of diesel-electric submarines of the 4 generation in the USSR was started with a certain delay: work on the 677 “Lada” project was started only in 1987. This predetermined all subsequent complexities of the project. MAPL "Ash" we began to develop in 1977, and the collapse of the USSR, it was largely finished, so that in 1993, was able to lay the lead boat of the series. But the work on “Lada”, obviously, was still at an early stage in 1991, which was why it was created mostly already in “dashing 90” with all the resulting “joys”, including chronic underfunding, the collapse of cooperative chains and .d etc.

The diesel-electric submarine "Lada" contained a huge amount of innovations, it was about creating a fundamentally new ship. Smaller than displacement of the 636 project diesel engines, smaller crew size, but at the same time maintaining the same weapons. Single-hull construction (the second building remained only in the aft part of diesel-electric submarines), new electric motor, GAK, BIUS, new coating, new means of reducing noise, similar in principle to those used on “Ash”, new batteries that should provide submerged distance 650 miles on economic 3 nodes versus 400 miles from Varshavyanok.

The head boat "St. Petersburg" was laid in 1997, and could be put into operation only in 2010, but the very first tests showed that almost nothing of the main innovations works as it should.



The combat information system "Li" messed up. Wonderful, in theory, the SJC “Lira”, which included itself not only a classical antenna placed in the bow of the boat, but also additional side ones located directly on the DEPL hull, as well as a towed antenna, did not meet the stated characteristics. The newest type of rechargeable batteries, which were supposed to provide the Lada with more than one and a half times superiority in range, for some reason gave out power at the level of 60% of the planned one.

Hopes that all these children's diseases, which will be quickly corrected, were not justified. “St. Petersburg” was finally handed over to the fleet, but was in trial operation, and the two serial boats laid down behind it, the Kronstadt and Velikiye Luki, were generally stopped by construction and re-installed on the revised 677 project in 2013 and 2015 yy respectively. Nevertheless, even by this time there was no clarity as to how we managed to overcome the problems that plagued St. Petersburg. On the one hand, there were separate reports on certain successes of St. Petersburg. But on the other hand, in 2016, RIA Novosti reported with reference to an unnamed representative of the Russian Navy that the fleet command decided to abandon the further construction of the diesel-electric submarine of the 677 project. On the one hand, of course, the “unnamed representative” is not the most authoritative source, but there was also a much more serious symptom indicating the failure of the 677 project.

The fact is that 7 in September 2016 was contracted to build the “magnificent six” XDUMX diesel-electric submarines for the Pacific Fleet. It is clear that “to conclude a contract” and “build” are fundamentally different concepts, but the fact is that if in 636.3 the problems of the lead ship of the 2016 project were resolved, or at least there was a firm belief that the 677D serial boats would be released to an acceptable level, then what was the point of building for the Pacific sailors morally obsolete diesel-electric submarines of the previous project? Although the diesel-electric submarines of the 677 project represent a deep modernization of the Warsaw-Wyangs, by their fighting qualities they are, of course, not the generation 636.3 boats.

All this indicated that a bold cross was put on the Ladakh, and therefore periodically pop-up messages that the fleet might order another 2 of this type of boat that flashed in 2017 were not taken seriously. In addition to the above, there were two more reasons. Firstly, these news, as a rule, did not come from the representatives of the Navy, but from the leaders of the Admiralty Shipyards JSC, who could have given the wishful thinking. And secondly, at that time, the new HPV 2018-2027. It has not yet been approved, so any thoughts about what exactly the fleet will order in the end, were more fortune telling on the coffee grounds than any reliable information.

True, the deputy commander of the Russian Navy V. Bursuk spoke about “Ladakh”: according to him, the fleet was still going to order the 677 project boats in a large series. But here, apparently, it was about those happy times when an air-independent power plant would be created for the Lada. Given the impasse in which our designers found themselves trying to design such an installation, the words of the castle fleet looked like a polite euphemism for the phrase “When the cancer on the mountain will whistle”. This was all the more unpleasant because, according to some sources, St. Petersburg gradually got rid of its shortcomings. So, "on the Internet," in July 2018, the news appeared, with reference to the words of the USC head, that the prolonged trial operation was coming to an end, and that the lead ship of the 677 series would be handed over to the fleet in 2019.



However, 20 September 2018, there were as many as three interesting events. Firstly, the 2 th series of diesel-electric submarines of the series, pledged for the 677 project in 2005, was launched, suspended by construction in the 2009, and repotted by the 677 project in 2013, it is about the K-586 Kronstadt. Secondly, Igor Vilnit, Director General of the TsDB MT Rubin, delivered a rather unexpected message. In his words, the diesel-electric submarines "St. Petersburg" in the end not only confirmed all the declared characteristics, but even surpassed them. And finally, thirdly, the General Director of Admiralty Shipyards JSC once again announced the construction of two more diesel-electric submarines on the 677 project, and according to his words, the signing of the contract is planned for 2019.

Of course, doubts still remain - do not the general directors of Rubin and Admiralty Shipyards give what they want to do? If you recall, for example, how many times I. Vilnit spoke about the “well, almost completely finished” anaerobic facility, which was developed by the TsKB, then optimism about the fate of the 677 project decreases sharply and multiplely.

But 28 of March of this year, Igor Mukhametshin, deputy commander-in-chief for armaments of the Russian Navy, said that the production of the Lada diesel-electric submarines of the 677 project (probably, it’s all about 677D) will be resumed. And not in the bright capitalist future, but in the very near future: according to I. Mukhametshin, documents for the conclusion of a contract are being prepared by the relevant specialists of the military department.

It is clear that you will not be fed up with promises, and that in a good way you should begin to rejoice after the completion of the contract for the construction of a series of diesel-electric submarines of the 677 project (677D), or at least the completion of the trial operation of St. Petersburg. Nevertheless, in view of the above, it can be said that the status of the program of non-nuclear submarines of the 4 generation inspires cautious optimism.

And further. Recently, a number of articles devoted to anaerobic plants appeared at VO, under the influence of which a part of a respected audience could get the impression that classic diesel-electric boats are completely outdated and are unable to operate successfully today in high-intensity conflicts. But in reality this is certainly not the case. Of course, submarines with VNEU will have certain tactical advantages. But the combat potential of domestic "black holes" has always been rated highly, and the next generation ship, having the best HOOK, less noise and many other advantages, will be an extremely dangerous underwater adversary, even having a classic diesel-electric power industry. Especially if the work on lithium-ion, or other high-capacity batteries will be crowned with success, which will significantly increase the autonomy of domestic diesel-electric submarines.

In general, the immediate future of our non-nuclear submarine fleet looks like this. Apparently, in the Baltic our submarine forces will be represented by two “Halibuts”, “Alrosa” and “Dmitrov” - both of them have been repaired and modernized (more precisely, the “Alrosa” is still in process) and it can be hoped that with proper maintenance the ships "stretched" another 8-10 years or so. The Black Sea Fleet, which has recently received 6 of the new Warsawwenk project of 636.3, will not receive replenishment by ships of the same class in the foreseeable future. The Pacific Fleet, which incorporates the 6 “Paltus”, is likely to be gradually reequipped on the 636.3 new construction - that is, as the “Warsawyon” from the “Admiralty Shipyards” arrives, the old 877 boats will be removed from the fleet. Although we can not exclude the fact that some of them will still remain in service, and for some time the total number of diesel-electric submarines of the Pacific Fleet will exceed today's 6 units. New fleet will also be replenished with the Northern Fleet - today it has only 3 “Halibut” and “Saint Petersburg”. Most likely, both boats of the 677 project, which are currently under construction, will go exactly to the north in order to bring the total number of diesel-electric submarines to 6 units. And, most likely, the new diesel-electric submarines of the same project will also go to the Federation Council in order to form a compound of the same type 6 boats there. However, it cannot be ruled out that the existing contract for 6 submarines of the 636.3 project for the Pacific will be reduced to 4 units, and instead of the remaining two, the newest Lada will be supplied to the Pacific Fleet.

Thus, it can be assumed that “under the curtain” of the existing GPT “Paltusa” will completely leave the Russian Navy, but the total number of EPTs will even increase: if today, in fact, we have 11 “Paltusov”, 6 “Varshavianok” and one “Lada”, which has not yet come out of trial operation, then by 2028 we can expect 8 “Lada” (2 at BF, and 6 at SF) and 12 “Varshavyanok” (according to 6 at BSF and TF). Of course, we need a much larger number of them, especially against the backdrop of a landslide reduction of MAPL, but it is doubtful that there will be funds for this. Still, for the implementation of this program, we need to build five new diesel submarines of the 677 project and four 636.3 over the next decade, not counting the commissioning of two diesel submarines of the 677 project and 636.3, which are currently at different stages of construction.

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68 comments
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  1. +1
    April 5 2019 05: 11
    Literally at the end of March, "Military-Industrial Courier" reported
    Russian developers are ready to make a chemical air-independent power plant (VNEU) within three years after the opening of the corresponding R&D. This was stated by Valentin Frolov, deputy general director of the Rubin Central Design Bureau, at the launching ceremony for the Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky diesel-electric submarine, the first in the Varshavyanka series for the Pacific Fleet.
    Hope dies last. And nobody wants to die, I think we will still wait and dance at her wedding!
    1. +1
      April 5 2019 05: 27
      ... khe, khe - swam - we know ..
  2. -1
    April 5 2019 06: 05
    --- "... but it is doubtful that the funds will be found for this." --- There would be a desire in this chain, and at each link. There is money in Russia, and how to prove there, the need to allocate additional. funds, again desire. And there is only one proof - a strong submarine fleet. And here are the waiting caps. repair, tee on diesel-electric submarines "Yaroslavl", but will it be worth it?
  3. 0
    April 5 2019 06: 20
    And what prevents "Dollezhal's eggs" from being "screwed" to the new diesel-electric submarines, there seems to be a positive experience?
    1. +2
      April 5 2019 07: 03
      Well, to the minus, it would not be bad to get comments, because conceit multiplied by swagger can lead, ultimately, to damage to the nervous system of the self-possessed pronounced so-called megalomania.
      1. +1
        April 5 2019 12: 43
        Quote: mark1
        Well, minus it would be nice to get comments

        I agree, minus without justification looks like a spit in the back.
        1. 0
          April 5 2019 14: 26
          Quote: NEOZ
          I agree, minus without justification looks like a spit in the back.

          Like a fig in your pocket. As I understand it, some stupidly minus out of revenge, because you once "stepped on the tail" or just didn't like your face.
    2. -1
      April 5 2019 14: 45
      a very reasonable offer, but do not turn to cons bully pay attention!
    3. +1
      April 5 2019 16: 38
      Quote: mark1
      And what prevents to "fasten" Dollezhal's eggs to the new diesel-electric submarines

      The question is, of course, interesting. And I have no answer to it - in order to say something intelligible, you need to know the test results. In the internet they usually write about the increased range, but what about the noise, cost, and so on?
      1. 0
        April 5 2019 18: 43
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The question is, of course, interesting.

        That's it - very interesting. At the expense of cost and other things, it's hard to say. but the noise, it can be assumed, for that time was not high (the absence of circulation pumps as the main source of noise). Moreover, it can be assumed that the topic is developing - at least a space "nuclear installation of a megawatt class" could perfectly be "registered" in the fleet (with certain conditions)
  4. +3
    April 5 2019 07: 00
    Andrei, thanks for the article, my opinion about non-nuclear submarines is generally the same as yours, it was interesting to read, but I just found a mistake in the article - However, it cannot be ruled out that the existing contract for 6 diesel-electric submarines of project 636.3 for the Pacific Rim will be reduced to 4 units, and instead of the remaining two on the SF The latest Lada will be delivered., probably it was necessary to write like this - and instead of the remaining two for the Pacific Fleet, in the SF ........
    1. +3
      April 5 2019 16: 38
      Thank you, ochepyochka came out :) I will ask the moderators to fix
  5. +1
    April 5 2019 07: 03
    It’s interesting, and when the Lada is finally brought to mind, will there be a future technical opportunity to stick the VNEU into it or will it be necessary to seriously remake the boat?
    1. 0
      April 6 2019 23: 36
      They write that it will be possible to weld an additional section, but will it work out, if we see it, we will survive.
  6. 0
    April 5 2019 08: 07
    There are practically no hopes for Alrosa
  7. +3
    April 5 2019 09: 40
    unfortunate drummers.
    butts are clearly frozen ... laughing
    and as for anaerobic plants, in my opinion, the author is not quite right.
    without them, the boat is very limited in use, its destiny is to sit in ambushes.
    Yes, they write that the speed is 19 nodes, but they modestly omit what the sailing distance is.
    But the ambush tactics could be effective for the Germans, in whom hundreds of these boats were counted (and chased after convoys in the surface position on diesels, now, of course, this is unrealistic, now even under the periscope the boat is easily visible visually from a helicopter), but with ten, what kind of ambush? Only by chance and good luck. well, or as sensational cases in exercises when submariners know the enemy’s place.
    And the Japanese put new types of batteries as a temporary solution, without anaerobic installations the future of non-nuclear submarines is very vague.
    Without anaerobic installations, there is clearly no future for non-nuclear submarines.
    1. -4
      April 5 2019 10: 52
      Americans are not fools abandoned non-nuclear because of poverty we continue to build I'm just wildly interested to hear the opinion of an acoustics with a bf on the noise of Germanic pl
    2. +6
      April 5 2019 11: 08
      Sergey, the capacity of anaerobic plants actually in operation does not exceed 100 kilowatts. Do you need to continue?
      1. +1
        April 5 2019 23: 54
        on the project 877, the electric motor of economic progress was 190 hp.
        need to continue? wink
        in fact, the Swedes put the same Stirlings in 2 pieces - they get an economic move without consuming batteries.
        after all, nobody removes batteries and diesels, everything is in place.
        1. +3
          April 6 2019 00: 32
          get economic running without consuming batteries.
          Dear, where did you read this nonsense? Swedish Stirling weighs 30+ tons and produces something around 70 kilowatts of electrical power. I don’t remember the exact numbers; look for laziness. I don’t know how much fans, regeneration, lighting, Stirling and other household and combat systems consume among the Swedes, I think that in normal mode at least 30-50 kilowatts. Accordingly (2x70) -30 = 110 on a propeller engine. And this is an extremely optimistic figure that does not take into account numerous losses. Pessimistic will be 90-20% for losses. In the best case, we get a move of 1-2 knots if you breathe, 3-4 in super-economical mode. At worst, we lie on the ground and do not consume batteries. And all this happiness with two huge, heavy Stirlings requiring liquid oxygen to work. By the way, I leave the story with two on your conscience, I read that he is there alone. The thing really was a long time, maybe since then the second stuck.
          1. -1
            April 6 2019 01: 02
            I found everything for you and brought it below in the branch, if you are looking for laziness.
            I leave the word "nonsense" on your conscience.
            I do not think that it is worth using it in questions in which you "out of your ears" heard something.
            1. 0
              April 6 2019 12: 32
              Read. Impressed with your numbers. I can’t argue objectively at the moment. I was interested in the question a few years ago, it is possible that in the industry there was a sharp progress that did not affect the Russian Federation. I also admit that the figures you quoted are taken from advertising materials and do not quite correspond to reality.
              I would be grateful for the link to the source of information about two 150 kW sterling on a Swedish boat. If this is true, then this is a breakthrough.
    3. +5
      April 5 2019 11: 25
      For some reason, many have the opinion that diesel-electric submarines are "yesterday" ... is outdated (!); and VNEU - "what the doctor ordered"! "Justify, sir!"
      VNEU "definitely desperately needed" could be said on condition that there were no "nuclear" submarines ... but they are! You can say this: nuclear submarines - ocean class; DEPL- "sea" class! And what ? Are the Baltic and Black Seas so large that there won't be enough diesel-electric submarines? After all, there is still hope that the production of "improved" (more energy-intensive) batteries will begin in the near future! They will say expensive! Well, sho! Everything is "comparatively relative"! If you need to get hold of 100-200 submarines, then this is "one thing" ... and if 10 for "one sea" - another ... Do you need VNEU-submarines? Quite, they may and are needed ... but it will be an "intermediate" class ... between ocean-going nuclear submarines and "sea" diesel-electric submarines ... (if the sea is "large" or part of the ocean needs to be controlled ...) Various VNEU options ... There is no comrade's color and taste, but personally I sympathize with combined installations (styling + thermal (!) accumulators ... Heat accumulators of the early "proposal" are "containers" with molten metal salts ... Recently read a message about the creation by Australian (?) scientists of heat accumulators based on silicon ... (they say that it is very "promising"!) ...
      1. +1
        April 5 2019 12: 33
        if we are doing Poseidon than the small atomic ones are bad, like the French have, for example, and we are head and shoulder in this
        1. +2
          April 5 2019 13: 08
          Quote: rayruav
          than bad atomic small

          Yes, not bad! But the "desire to have" nuclear submarines of the "Lada" type rests on: 1. international law; 2.Ecological "code" of the world community .. Whatever you say ... but the "atomic transformation" of diesel-electric submarines really increase the risk of "nuclear accidents"!
          1. +2
            April 5 2019 13: 15
            Vladimir, you’ve thrown some international law here, if the states and I spat on medium-range missiles, then there are no restrictions on nuclear boats, and even if there’s a spit, the games went on survival and here’s a merci
            1. 0
              April 5 2019 15: 43
              Quote: rayruav
              if we with the states spat on medium-range missiles, then there are no restrictions on atomic boats, and even if there is a spit

              Calm down, tovarisch! The point is that nowadays such times are when an arms manufacturer must think about exporting his "goods" abroad! According to the EU environmental legislation, not only will no one "buy" such submarines from Russia, but also will not allow such submarines to "plow the world ocean"! Well, the ocean is not an ocean, but the seas, which have become "inland seas" of "world civilization" - that's for sure!
              1. 0
                April 8 2019 09: 57
                Quote: Nikolaevich I
                nobody will "buy"

                this is understandable.
                Quote: Nikolaevich I
                but they will not allow such submarines to "surf the world ocean"

                who specifically will not allow? on what basis?
                ps
                scho my submarine is forbidden to pass ONLY into the black and Caspian Sea, the rest is possible.
                1. 0
                  April 8 2019 11: 31
                  In this case, I relied ... from memory (!) ... on the "nuclear-free zones" ...Nuclear-free zone - a zone, region (region), on the territory of which the placement of nuclear weapons, their means of delivery to targets, the conduct of tests and the production of nuclear weapons is prohibited by agreement. At the same time, nuclear states assume certain international legal guarantees both in respect of other states and their own territories that belong to nuclear-free zones.
                  They pledge not to use nuclear weapons against member states of the nuclear-free zone, not to introduce ships and units equipped with nuclear ammunition into these countries and / nuclear power plants /, not to transfer nuclear weapons to the participants of the zone, not to help them in building their nuclear potential.
                  At 2009, nuclear-free zones were declared:
                  Antarctic Region (Treaty of the Year 1959);
                  Latin America (Treaty of Tlatella only 1967 of the year);
                  South Pacific (Treaty of Rarotonga 1985 of the Year);
                  Southeast Asia (Bangkok Treaty of 1995 of the Year);
                  Africa (Pelindaba Treaty of 1996 of the Year);
                  Central Asia (Semipalatinsk Treaty of 2007 of the Year
                  But to say "any" ... if, now, in the waters of the Black, Baltic Seas, for example, on a permanent basis to place at bases (base) submarines with nuclear power plants (no matter what "variety"!), Then such a grandiose "high" in the "nearby" countries will rise ... that "mom, do not cry!" ... and regardless of the "status of nuclear submarines" in the region!
                  1. 0
                    April 8 2019 12: 05
                    Quote: Nikolaevich I
                    In this case, I relied ... from memory (!) ... on the "nuclear-free zones" ...

                    Thank! expanded my horizons ... I encounter such zones for the first time ...
                    ps
                    my sofa hasn’t swum so far!
    4. +3
      April 5 2019 12: 46
      Quote: Avior
      in my opinion, the author is not quite right.
      without them, the boat is very limited in use, its destiny is to sit in ambushes.

      with VNEU the boat has the same stroke of 3 knots as when using the battery.
    5. +2
      April 5 2019 13: 39
      Anaerobic installations are necessary for countries that do not have nuclear submarines. For our boats that operate close to their coast and in inland seas they are not needed. Yes, they are being developed. But they will only go to submarines for export to other countries. And rightly so. All strong sea powers like the USA, China, France, England and Russia can build nuclear submarines. The United States generally abandoned diesel-electric submarines for a long time. For us, diesel-electric submarines are just a cheaper option to protect their coast. And nuclear-electric submarines with VNEU will approach the price of nuclear submarines .So Andre th right, for us they are not needed.
      1. +1
        April 5 2019 15: 47
        Quote: Xscorpion
        ... The United States in general long ago abandoned diesel-electric submarines ...


        The United States refused a lot, for example, frigates, and now they are going to return to them. Who knows, maybe tomorrow they will be interested in the NNS.

        I mean, taking someone’s refusal for justifying one’s refusal is wrong; one must proceed from one’s own situation.

        We can not know how the domestic development VNEU will affect the price. Do, then you can watch. At a minimum, this is an export option.

        And Andrew for the diesel-electric submarines, not because he thinks that we do not need NNS, I think, but because the bird is better in the hands ...
    6. -1
      April 5 2019 14: 47
      Quote: Avior
      But ambush tactics could be effective

      just ambushes should be put in the right places where the partners climb themselves ... bully
      1. 0
        April 5 2019 23: 55
        too many places on a dozen other boats.
    7. 0
      April 6 2019 21: 20
      And the Japanese put new types of batteries as a temporary solution, without anaerobic installations the future of non-nuclear submarines is very vague.


      There was recently "news" that either the Japanese or the Koreans have built an all-electric boat using only batteries.

      hi
  8. 0
    April 5 2019 10: 47
    excellent boats but a lot of the extra-va for which everyone is so advocating at the moment only for coastal operations to store hydrogen on the pl is not safe the best way out are the latest batteries no heat generators anyway noise sources, but a purely electric boat with which the underwater shipbuilding actually began is an ideal option For example, the autonomy of 20 days for these boats is just amazing tremendous noiselessness, I think this is the future, but today there is no alternative to small nuclear-powered submarines, but more expensive, but this is here and now and the last thing about photo b rabanschitsam sure to wear these skirts?
    1. +1
      April 5 2019 10: 51
      the skirts are great, the best photo good
    2. 0
      April 5 2019 12: 48
      Quote: rayruav
      store hydrogen on pl is not safe

      I completely agree!
      ps
      lithium polymer batteries are also explosive ...
      1. 0
        April 5 2019 13: 04
        yesterday, an article about Australian akb seems to have slipped better than lithium ones, and as for hydrogen from akb, burning machines have been standing there for a long time
        1. 0
          April 5 2019 13: 09
          Quote: rayruav
          What about the battery from akb

          in my opinion, it was about the stock of hydrogen for VNEU
          1. +1
            April 5 2019 13: 29
            and I'm talking about the same hydrogen under pressure, even in torpedoes, this isn’t good, that's why everyone on the basis of ash two do not bring to good
            1. 0
              April 5 2019 19: 36
              In general, the topic of hydrogen is striking in its dullness, ignoramuses believe in hydrogen .... meanwhile, hydrogen is not good in all respects, and especially on submarines. He is very harmful. For example, is there a better fuel C3H8 propane or even better C4H10 butane and why do we need this lousy H2? I explain that the propane and butane molecule contains 11-14 energy molecules, and there are only two in hydrogen, that is, they will be empty gas holders with virtually no energy, and so that the boat does not jump out like a balloon and does not fly away, you will have to load it with ballast, reduce and already tight volumes .... just idiocy squared. Vordorod’s theme was taken from the 19th century when they thought it was environmentally friendly (which is true) because city gas was then made from city waste and firewood with coal, a low-calorific mixture of CO and H2 was produced, and they didn’t know then that pipes from Urengoy could be laid, but natural gas not too much dirtier than hydrogen, it’s not a solarium and moreover it isn’t black oil yet. But the ignoramuses all pull out a completely dumb topic, thinking that they have discovered something new ...... What was, it will be; and what has been done will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.
              There is something that they say: "Look, this is new"; but this was already in the centuries before us ....... Ecclesiastes
  9. +6
    April 5 2019 11: 07
    Quote: Avior
    Yes, they write that the speed is 19 nodes, but they modestly omit what the sailing distance is.
    But the ambush tactics could be effective for the Germans, in whom hundreds of these boats were counted (and chased after convoys in a surface position on diesels, now, of course, this is unrealistic

    You do not confuse warm with soft.
    No one is going to drive Warsaw women to the Atlantic or the Pacific Ocean. At the Pacific Fleet, they will plug holes between the islands from Kamchatka to the Japanese Islands, so that the enemy will not be allowed into the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. To a lesser extent, to ensure the release of SSBNs from the base. On the SF to patrol the adjacent seas to the Arctic ice. Here the range is not particularly needed. And covering with base aviation will be a nice bonus. There is even nothing to say about the BF and the Black Sea Fleet. The Black Sea Varshavyanka shuttles to Tartus and vice versa, and even shorter distances in the Baltic.
    Only by chance and good luck

    At the moment when our boats begin to attack the boats and ships of the enemy, we all need to hope for luck and the vast expanses of the Motherland! Here the quantitative composition of the fleets will no longer matter. It will be a global war in which everyone will be the losers.
    1. -1
      April 5 2019 23: 57
      The Black Sea Warsaw women shuttle to Tartus and back,

      it is in peacetime. but they seem to make boats for the military.
  10. +3
    April 5 2019 14: 12
    A good article on a modern topic, he was the "twenty-first" Yes plus to put! Yes
    hi
  11. +2
    April 5 2019 14: 44
    thanks to the author for the analysis ...
    although I do not really understand the message that "Of course, submarines with VNEU will have certain tactical advantages." 1) VNEUs are different, and the Stirling circuit has increased noise ... recourse 2) Fuel cells require a supply of liquid oxygen - which is a dangerous thing ...
    So the only reasonable VNEU is a nuclear reactor ... hi BUT of low power, up to 1 MW in electricity, to provide power to ship systems, devices and low-noise operation ... And not just a reactor, but immediately with heat-electric converters, i.e. without noisy turbines ... feel
    1. 0
      April 6 2019 00: 52
      oxygen is required for stirligings, and then it is used for respiration.
      hydrogen is needed for fuel cells, but it is stored outside a sturdy housing
      1. -1
        April 6 2019 14: 14
        Quote: Avior
        hydrogen is needed for fuel cells

        if not a secret - what will you oxidize it to water? bully
    2. 0
      April 6 2019 21: 30
      After the news about the Poseidon, the Burevestnik rocket with a nuclear engine and the Peresvet laser installation with a huge van, presumably with a nuclear reactor and bioprotection, I would not be surprised at the news about equipping a nuclear reactor to recharge diesel-electric submarines.

      Anaerobic plants and Stirling will remain a curiosity and a dead end in the development that Russia managed to miss.
  12. 0
    April 5 2019 18: 47
    Photos from the ceremony of the descent of the B-274 "Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky"

    Test drummers. Amers have no such 100%.
    1. 0
      April 6 2019 21: 32
      There is. Young latinochki! But they would freeze.

      And ours are HOT!
  13. -1
    April 5 2019 19: 25
    interesting article, submarine basis of the fleet, you need more of them
  14. 0
    April 5 2019 22: 46
    The ceremony - what you need
    Drums Beat - Joy
    Don't take your eyes straight
    Well we can make!
  15. +4
    April 6 2019 00: 50
    About VNEU I will write to everyone right away.
    VNEU in modern boats is not intended to replace a diesel engine, but in addition to it.
    The Swedes simply put an additional compartment for the Stirlings without any hassle and everything else - batteries, diesels and other places.
    The Germans more carefully approached their fuel cells, but also everything else stands still.
    That is, VNEU does not in any way worsen DEPL indicators.
    The power of VNEU, as noted above, is much less than the diesel power - the Stirlings of the Swedes are 204 hp each, fuel cells of type 212 are either 9 to 30-40 kW, or 2 to 120 kW, to type 214-2 are 120 kW.
    9 HDW / Siemens PEM fuel cells, 30–40 kW each (U31)
    2 HDW / Siemens PEM fuel cells each with 120 kW (U32, U33, U34) [3]

    The stirlings of the Swedes or the Japanese are similar, only the Swedes put 2, and the Japanese 4.
    is it a lot or a little?
    Analyzing old projects, one can easily see that VNEU provides an economic course at least.
    for example, an electric motor of 877 hp (displacement of about 190 tons) is on an 3000 project for economic running, and on a 641 engine is 140 hp (2500 tons).
    But the Germans, for example, have a displacement much less - 1800 tons.
    and their underwater range is large enough - for type 214, for example
    12,000 miles (19,300 km) (surfaced)
    420 nmi (780 km) @ 8 kt (submerged)
    1,248 nmi (2,311 km) @ 4 kt (submerged)

    Swedes have even less displacement.
    Gotland's speed on Stirling engines is 5 knots.
    Submerged: 20 knots (37 km / h) on batteries; 5 knots (9.3 km / h) on AIP

    Modern PLO is capable of quite efficiently tracking boats at periscope depth, both visually and by the marks of the radar radar, especially by statistical analysis, and by the gas analyzer, by the exhaust of diesels, and by the noisy operation of diesels when charging batteries or running on the surface.
    At a periscope depth, and even more so on the surface, except for a very short time, the boat is in an area that is dangerous from the point of view of aviation (and not only aviation) PLO - it’s like death, and you can’t charge the battery like that.
    But a diesel-electric submarine one way or another should consume batteries — both for its own needs and for a move — for example, patrolling the area, the course for normal operation of the depth rudders, for advancing to the area, for moving to another position and so on.
    In practice, this leads to the fact that, in reality, the boat in the area hazardous for PLO is very limited in movement and cannot respond quickly to changing conditions, which leads to a sharp deterioration in the real effectiveness of diesel-electric submarines without VNEU, capable of using VNEU for the economic course under water, and recharging batteries without surfacing to the periscope depth and without much noise from diesels.
    As for Stirling's noise, although they are a bit noisier than a clean electric ship, they are incomparably quieter than the operation of a diesel engine.
    Hydrogen for cells of great danger has no capacity with it located outside the sturdy hull of the boat.
    Conclusion - boats with VNEU have a great advantage over diesel-electric submarines without them.
    hi
    1. 0
      April 6 2019 14: 19
      Quote: Avior
      boats with VNEU have a great advantage over diesel-electric submarines without them.

      You're right. Literate people understand this very well, and therefore do not fit into this debate about the uselessness of VNEU. Everything! Green grapes! Managed. Money spent and project closed. The ends are in the water.
      Now what? All the same, and the same. Next saw. Now on batteries. Yes, lithium-ion batteries have a very good energy intensity. Many here believe that the capacity of batteries will increase according to Moore's empirical law. So no! This Moore’s law does not apply to batteries. On the horizon, a breakthrough has not yet been observed. Development is underway, but no breakthrough has been observed.
      What do we have about Fuel Cells? "Mirai" is a serial Toyota car. https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/fcv.html
      The fourth year has been produced. Electric power of EU - 113 kW. The cost of the entire car is within 60 thousand dollars. For sale so far only where a network of gas stations for it has already been created.
      Question: How much will a battery car with the same driving range cost and weigh on one full charge?
      Is it necessary to consider all this in order to understand? Why count? Better waving flags. Failed fuel cells? No problem! Let's spend money on new super-duper batteries. And the fact that fuel cells continue to improve in the same way as batteries does, so why bother with this? To do this, you need to think. And if there is no such ability? Then only the flags.
      1. 0
        April 6 2019 22: 01
        Quote from an article on "Military Review" from 2014.

        https://topwar.ru/59618-podlodki-nindzya-na-batareykah.html


        Soryu uses several energy sources (diesel power plants, air-independent engines and lead-acid batteries). Now they (the Japanese) are abandoning the secondary engine, but instead enlarging and expanding energy storage devices, moving from lead-acid batteries to lithium-ion batteries. These batteries have a much higher energy density. They can develop additional electronic safety systems to ensure the stability of each battery. "
        1. 0
          April 6 2019 23: 08
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          Soryu uses several energy sources (diesel power plants, air-independent engines and lead-acid batteries).

          Sorry, but Stirling engines are installed on Sorya. If these engines for some reason ceased to suit the Japanese, then they naturally switched to batteries. It’s already impossible to place Fuel Elements there. The design must be seriously changed. I can only guess about the reasoning of the Japanese when making this decision. You need to know the details that no one here knows.
          In Russia, money was spent specifically on Fuel Cells. Fuel cells require special storage conditions for hydrogen and oxygen, which is laid in the design of the submarine initially.
          In Germany, they started building with 2001 and are building to this day. They install two TE (REM) modules of 120 kW each. This VNEU allows you to go under water 420 miles at a speed of 8 knots, or 1248 miles at a speed of 4 knots. On which batteries can this be repeated today?
          But, energy management systems on fuel cells do not stand still (end of the last century). Today, only on a serial passenger car, Toyota companies install 113 kW power plants. Can you imagine the dimensions? If not, I gave the link above. There, the price should surprise you.
          Why am I doing this? Only to the fact that the dimensions of the EU on the fuel cell are already insignificant. There, the question is only in the placement of hydrogen and oxygen.
          Power plants on fuel cells are more flexible than Stirlings. And they put an end to this topic. And what about the future various underwater drones? Also only on batteries? Or for each - according to the AEU?
          1. 0
            April 6 2019 23: 28
            Information came out that until 2014, German fuel cells were tested in Russia and tried to make their own, but ...

            According to more recent information, they decided to abandon fuel cells in Russia in favor of reforming diesel fuel directly on board.
            1. 0
              April 7 2019 01: 18
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              According to more recent information, they decided to abandon fuel cells in Russia in favor of reforming diesel fuel directly on board.

              You have a misconception about this topic. The reforming process (the process of producing hydrogen from diesel fuel) was a component of VNEU TE. (see Catalytic Reforming). There was simply a "boyish" desire to "do everyone", but as a result, "all the steam went to the whistle."
    2. 0
      April 6 2019 22: 10
      While they are arguing here in 2019 on the Military Review, the Japanese, having played with the anaerobic engine on the Soryu, decided to abandon it in 2014 in favor of replacing lead acid batteries with lithium-ion batteries using volumes, previously occupied by the anaerobic installation.

      Quote from an article on "Military Review" from 2014.

      https://topwar.ru/59618-podlodki-nindzya-na-batareykah.html


      Soryu uses several energy sources (diesel power plants, air-independent engines and lead-acid batteries). Now they (the Japanese) are abandoning the secondary engine, but instead enlarging and expanding energy storage devices, moving from lead-acid batteries to lithium-ion batteries. These batteries have a much higher energy density. They can develop additional electronic safety systems to ensure the stability of each battery. "
      1. -1
        April 8 2019 00: 57
        the fact that the Japanese decided to replace VNEU with very expensive lithium-ion batteries of Japanese production on a pair of Soryu boats against dozens of boats of the same project with the Stirligs, only says that the Japanese support their manufacturer, even if they have to pay exorbitant prices.
        but others clearly do not need it.
        not to mention their fire hazard, which manifested itself in Boeing, where they were used
        1. 0
          April 8 2019 05: 47
          Wait and see.
          1. +1
            April 8 2019 08: 11
            while we see the pace of ordering type 212 and 214 from the Germans, the bill went by the tens.
            1. 0
              April 8 2019 21: 13
              Somewhere there was information that the Germans were no longer building 212 and 214 for themselves. For export - any whim for your money.
              1. +1
                April 9 2019 00: 29
                Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                Somewhere there was information that for themselves 212 and 214 the Germans no longer build

                Was. Because for themselves the Germans do not build anything underwater
                1. 0
                  April 9 2019 18: 20
                  I think that the Germans tried, did and decided that it was not necessary. For themselves, they will, like the Japanese, put lithium batteries, and for export - any whim for your money.

                  Russia managed to slip through this stage.

                  For yourself, there will be either lithium batteries, or lithium batteries and a nuclear reactor to recharge the batteries.

                  After "Poseidon", "Petrel" with nuclear reactors and "Peresvet" with a nuclear power plant in a van, I will not be surprised at anything.

                  Logical step. ECG and Stirling against a compact nuclear reactor - immediately look like steampunk.
              2. -1
                April 9 2019 09: 31
                So for export, this is just the most obvious in determining trends.
                you can support a domestic manufacturer for yourself, like the Japanese with new light up batteries at exorbitant prices, but this will not work for export

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