Military Review

Locked topic. What is known about the "30 Product"?

85
Currently, preparations are continuing for the mass production of advanced Su-57 fighters. As in the case of prototypes, serial vehicles will be equipped with engines of two models. The first production models will be received by the existing AL-41FX1 engines (they are also the “first stage engines”), and then the newer 30 Products will replace them in the series. From the end of 2017, promising turbojet engines of the “30 Product” are tested in the air, and their production is expected to be mastered in the future in the interests of the mass production of aircraft.


The “30” type of turbofans, or the “second stage engine”, is one of the main themes in the context of the PAK-FA / T-50 / Su-57 project. However, this topic is one of the most closed.

However, to date, the developer represented by NPO Saturn, as well as officials from the Ministry of Defense and other structures, managed to reveal part of the data and draw up a rough picture. It is expected that in the future the flow of new information will continue, and the industry will reveal new details of the most interesting project.

Fifth generation engine

Su-57 fighter belongs to the conditional fifth generation, which indicates the presence of a number of characteristic requirements. One of the main requirements is the provision of cruising supersonic speeds, including without the use of afterburner chambers. Existing serial engines do not allow to obtain such characteristics, and therefore requires a completely new power plant. A promising engine designed for the Su-57, like the aircraft itself, belongs to the conditional fifth generation - however, already in the field of engine building.


Aircraft Su-57 with engines of the "first stage" - AL-41Ф1. Photo KLA / uacrussia.ru


It is believed that the difference between generations of turbojet engines manifests itself in a change in the basic parameters. A sharp increase in the specific thrust or a reduction in the specific fuel consumption achieved in the new project makes it possible to refer it to the next generation. The newest XRUMX turbofan unit differs from existing systems in terms of these indicators, which allows its developers to talk about the creation of an 30 or 5 + engine.

High performance of the new engine is achieved, first of all, through the use of the most modern technologies, materials and solutions. At the same time, already developed ideas are also used. Thus, the "Product 30" continues the line of domestic engines with a standard nozzle having thrust vector control.

However, some modern solutions had to be abandoned. For example, in 2013, NPO Saturn showed a promising blade design for a high-pressure compressor made of titanium aluminide. There were reports of the possible introduction of such material into the design of the turbine. However, later, titanium aluminide as part of "Products 30" refused. The mass saving was insignificant, and the resistance to the increased mechanical and thermal loads characteristic of military engines is insufficient.

Technical details

According to known data, the “30 Product” is a double-circuit turbojet engine with an afterburner. At the level of some basic ideas, it has similarities with older engines of the AL-31 and AL-41 families, but all its units were developed anew and using modern developments. The result was a noticeable increase in all of the main characteristics, which makes it possible to assign the “30 Product” to the next generation of turbofans.

The engine has the usual architecture for its class with multi-stage high and low pressure compressors, a combustion chamber and multi-stage turbines. Behind the turbines are the afterburner and the nozzle with the UHT. On the outer surface of the engine placed the necessary units for one purpose or another. The developers of the 30 Product do not rush to disclose all the details of the design, but some of the features of the new project are already known.

The compressor compresses the incoming air at a rate of 6,7, providing air flow rate up to 20-23 kg / s. The combustion chamber is equipped with a plasma ignition system, installed directly on the injectors. Such means provide ignition of the fuel immediately after it enters the combustion chamber. Thanks to it the optimum mode of burning is supported, and also so-called is excluded. Flare - incorrect combustion of fuel accumulated in the engine. The gas temperature in front of the turbine ranges from 1950 to 2100 ° K. For comparison, the serial engine AL-31F, this parameter does not exceed 1700 ° K.


Experienced Su-57 with engine "Product 30". Photo by Nickolay Krasnov / russianplanes.net


The 30 engine is equipped with a new nozzle that has thrust vector control functions. This unit is noticeably less used before and has other contours. In particular, the trailing edge of the nozzle, formed by individual flaps, gets an uneven shape.

An important feature of the design, providing new opportunities, is to change the degree of bypass. The project also took into account the need to reduce the visibility of the engine and the aircraft as a whole for radar and infrared surveillance systems. Such problems were solved by creating optimal air intake and nozzle designs.

For the new engine, an original electronic digital control system with full responsibility has been created. It receives data from many different sensors and monitors the operation of all engine components. Receiving commands from the pilot, the control system performs them based on current parameters and various factors. Automatics engine management simplifies the work of the pilot, as well as facilitates the configuration of the power plant to work in certain conditions.

All new ideas and solutions are designed to enhance the basic characteristics of the engine. According to open data, the maximum engine thrust “Product 30” reaches 11000 kgf, afterburner - 18000 kgf. For comparison, the engine of the first stage of the AL-41F1 has a thrust of 9500 and 15000 kgf, respectively. Thus, the Su-57, even with a maximum take-off mass exceeding 35, will have a thrust-to-weight ratio of more than one. With normal take-off weight, this parameter will reach 1,15-1,2.

The specific parameters of the new engine either improved or remained at the level of previous products. Thus, the management of NPO Saturn indicates that the specific fuel consumption of the “30 Product” remained at the level of the AL-31F engine - around 0,67 kg • kgf / hour. At the same time, the specific thrust increased, but the exact value of this parameter is not called. With such parameters, in terms of its size and weight, the 30 engine is not very different from the serial Russian turbofans.

Optimization of the main parameters leads to an increase in aircraft performance. According to various estimates, the cruising supersonic speed of the Su-57 aircraft without the use of an afterburner, provided by two engines with a load of 11000 kgf, can reach M = 1,5. The presence of a nozzle with a shock wave significantly improves maneuverability in all modes.

Plans for the future

While promising TRDDF "Product 30" remains at the stage of flight tests and tested on experienced aircraft T-50 / Su-57. To date, produced about two dozen prototype engines designed for inspections on the ground and in the air. Flight tests of the engines continue for over a year and require more time. So, at the beginning of last year it was reported that the entire flight test cycle could take three years.

Locked topic. What is known about the "30 Product"?
Engine "30" in the assembly hall (presumably). Photo Militaryrussia.ru


According to current plans, in the coming years, the Russian aerospace forces will receive several of the first production Su-57 fighter jets. The first cars of this type will be equipped with so-called. engines of the first stage - TRDDF AL-41F1. In 2020, the second contract for the supply of serial equipment should appear. This time we are talking about the introduction of new engines. Part of the second series of fighters will be equipped with "30 Products". Serial production of such engines will be mastered by the company "ODK-Ufa engine-building production association." In the future, approximately in the mid-twenties, the new engine will become standard for all serial Su-57.

In parallel with the testing and refinement of the “30 Product” in its existing version, work is underway to create new units for such an engine. The development of a flat nozzle capable of reducing the visibility of the aircraft in different spectra. Instead of a regular nozzle behind the engine, it is planned to place a curved channel on which two movable flat flaps should be installed.

The S-shaped channel covers the turbine blades from radar radiation, and the rectangular nozzle section reduces infrared radiation from reactive gases. At the same time, such units create additional resistance to the movement of gases, which leads to a slight reduction in the technical characteristics of the engine. The new nozzle is still in its early stages, and it is not yet known whether it will be introduced during future upgrades of the Su-57. However, with the help of such a project, Russian engine builders gain important experience.

Also reported on the elaboration of the creation of the engine of the "sixth generation". To further enhance the basic and specific characteristics, it is proposed to add a third circuit in addition to the two existing ones. However, such ideas are still at the stages of the earliest research, and therefore they can hardly be viewed in the context of further refinement of the Su-57 fighter jets.

So far, the main task of engine builders in the framework of the PAK FA program is the refinement of the “30 Products” with the subsequent launch of its production and the introduction of the Su-57 fighter jets into mass production. Apparently, the engine will go into the series in its current configuration - with a number of special technical solutions that enhance the overall characteristics. At the same time cardinal processing, such as installing a new nozzle, is not planned yet.

The main result of the project under the working designation "30" is the creation of high performance turbofans with high performance for the newest Russian fighter. In this case, do not forget about other important points. After completing work on the 30 product and bringing it to operation in the military, the Russian engine industry will once again show its potential and confirm its leading position.

On the materials of the sites:
https://uacrussia.ru/
http://uecrus.com/
https://aviation21.ru/
https://nplus1.ru/
https://tass.ru/
https://ria.ru/
Author:
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  1. burigaz2010
    burigaz2010 18 March 2019 05: 19
    +4
    But what is it, is it impossible to close the engine with at least covers? And this is on all our machines! Who in the subject explain please. Why do not they do !!!
    1. Bykov.
      Bykov. 18 March 2019 05: 28
      +7
      cooling.
      1. Errr
        Errr 18 March 2019 06: 48
        0
        From the text of the article:
        On the outer surface of the engine the necessary units of one or another purpose are placed.
        Take your time with an answer. What does the cooling have to do with it? ;-)
        1. Errr
          Errr 18 March 2019 19: 24
          +3
          Attention minus. This engine is dual-circuit. The air in the second circuit does not heat up in the combustion chamber, it simply flows around the outside of the first circuit and thus does not allow the engine elements located on its outer surface to heat up. Is it clear now?
        2. Simple
          Simple 19 March 2019 08: 19
          0
          The thermal conductivity of the metal is a priori high. In general, I would not lay my hand on a working jet engine.
      2. bayard
        bayard 18 March 2019 06: 52
        +3
        Quote: Bulls.
        cooling.

        As well as serviceability.
    2. Obi-Wan Kenobi
      Obi-Wan Kenobi 18 March 2019 06: 28
      +1
      The temperature of the gases in front of the turbine ranges from 1950 to 2100 ° K. For comparison, in the serial AL-31F engine, this parameter does not exceed 1700 ° K.

      How do you imagine this casing? lol
    3. Mik13
      Mik13 18 March 2019 07: 29
      +8
      Quote: burigaz2010
      But what is it, is it impossible to close the engine with at least covers? And this is on all our machines! Who in the subject explain please. Why do not they do !!!

      This is the "casing". It's just not painted. And so it is titanium.
    4. venik
      venik 18 March 2019 08: 29
      +11
      Quote: burigaz2010
      But what is it, is it impossible to close the engine with at least covers? And this is on all our machines!

      =========
      Why ALL ??? Where did you see the "open engine ?? I - so only on French helicopters of the 60s!"
      And on "dryers" - it (the engine cover) of course IS !!!
      Compare 2 photos:


      The bottom photo shows the "no casing" engine. Is the difference visible?
      The trick is that the casing is made of refractory alloys and is either not painted at all or painted with special heat-resistant coatings .... Hence the characteristic color!
    5. svp67
      svp67 18 March 2019 09: 52
      +2
      Quote: burigaz2010
      But what is it, is it impossible to close the engine with at least covers?

      And it is covered ... by an invisible "air casing", like a stocking.
      I am more interested in when he will go into the series en masse, and without that he will remain just "an expensive toy that has no analogue"
    6. E.S.
      E.S. 18 March 2019 11: 54
      +2
      Because you are one smart, and everyone else
      1. MONTEVIDEO01
        MONTEVIDEO01 18 March 2019 14: 21
        0
        According to open data, the maximum thrust of the Product 30 engine reaches 11000 kgf, afterburning - 18000 kgf. For comparison, the engine of the first stage AL-41F1 has a thrust of 9500 and 15000 kgf, respectively.

        Remember that the ratio of maximum thrust to afterburner thrust is usually 66% to 100%, i.e. the maximum thrust is about 2/3 of the afterburner thrust. Therefore, based on the fact that the afterburner thrust of Item 30 is 18 kgf, the maximum thrust is 000 kgf The .F-12 has a maximum thrust of 000 kgf, and its afterburner is 35 kgs. Raphael has a maximum thrust of 13 at 000 kgfs, and the afterburner has 19 at 500 kgf. Eurofighter Typhoon has a maximum thrust of 2 at 5 kgs and an afterburner of 000 at 2 kgs. JAS 7500 NG has a maximum thrust of 2 kgs and an afterburner of 6 kgs. A Mig-000 maximum thrust of 2 at 9000 kgs and an afterburner of 39 at 62300 kgs.
        1. MONTEVIDEO01
          MONTEVIDEO01 18 March 2019 14: 24
          +1
          JAS 39 NG maximum traction 62300kg and afterburner 9800kg.

          Here the error is unnecessary.
          JAS 39 NG maximum traction 6230kg and afterburner 9800kg.
    7. barik92090
      barik92090 18 March 2019 19: 15
      +3
      The typhoid market has penetrated into all areas of our state.
  2. Errr
    Errr 18 March 2019 05: 30
    +4
    According to various estimates, the su-57 cruising supersonic speed without the use of afterburner, provided by two engines with a thrust of 11000 kgf each, can reach M = 1,5.
    If this is true, then I am in awe! good
    1. bald
      bald 18 March 2019 06: 38
      +3
      I think about numbers, there is no doubt, since here (the USSR - Russia), usually the data, for publicity, is underestimated for obvious reasons.
    2. bayard
      bayard 18 March 2019 06: 49
      +8
      Quote: Herrr
      thrust of 11000 kgf, can reach M = 1,5.

      In fact, this speed was declared for the AL-41F with 9,5 tons of thrust without afterburner. For "Product-30" with its 11 tons, the cruising speed may approach 2M. close.
      For comparison - the first MiG-25 thrust on the afterburner was about 10 - 10,5 tons. And the serial ones have 12,5 tons. The aerodynamics of the Su-57 are not offended, the take-off weight is less than that of the MiG-25, so it will be able to give 2 Machs in the after-blow mode, Su-57.
      According to the maximum thrust on the afterburner, the information is also a difference - it ranges from 18 to 19,5-20 tons. Moreover, the most recent reports were just about 20 tons of traction. The temperature on the blades of the turbine is simply amazing ... and the actual weight of the engine itself is less than that of the AL-31F, and among other things, the weight is 1300 kg ... And the F-35 engine weighs almost 3 tons.
      It turns out a good unit ... but for a long time.
      But for Yakovlev’s design bureau, he’ll be right in time - he will be in time on time.
      1. Errr
        Errr 18 March 2019 07: 06
        0
        Miles, as they say, sorry. I'm not in the subject ... What is brewing there for "Yakovlev"? ;-)
        1. bayard
          bayard 18 March 2019 08: 02
          +10
          Yes, it seems like they are sculpting the vertical again. They wrote to the press that work had begun two years ago, as before, and there was silence for now. It’s for the best - in silence, it’s handy to work. Personally, I am categorically FOR such picking. For the fleet and not only, a very useful thing can happen. The main thing is not to go around the American rake, but to do just a good plane - without pampering with STELS (you can play moderately, but no more), an internal suspension and a lifting fan (it’s too painful to inflate it), which, in addition to its wild dimensions, is also heavier than simple and clear low-resource engines.
          If they build around the "Product-30", a very good machine can turn out - high-speed, maneuverable, with characteristics like the MiG-29 or Super Hornet. And it will be able to be based on future UDC or light aircraft carriers of the Kiev class, which are cheaper, easier and faster to build. They will be able to provide air defense of the fleet formation and reconnaissance, and they will not be superfluous in the Air Force / Aerospace Forces.
          1. NEOZ
            NEOZ 18 March 2019 12: 34
            -5
            Quote: bayard
            Personally, I categorically FOR such picking

            and I, here, against ... the vertical line is very flawed compared to competitors (classic decks)
            Quote: bayard
            For the fleet and not only, a very useful thing can turn out

            What does the MiG29K not suit you?
            Quote: bayard
            with characteristics like the MiG-29 or Super Hornet

            why design what is already there?
            Quote: bayard
            will be able to be based on future UDC or light aircraft carriers of the "Kiev" class

            Vikramaditya completely digests the MiG29K .....
            Quote: bayard
            Yes, and in the Air Force / VKS will not be superfluous.

            then drown for Sukhoi C54 / 55/56!
            1. bayard
              bayard 18 March 2019 19: 00
              +3
              It is good, of course, to have about six classic super-class aircraft carriers with AWACS planes, an electromagnetic catapult and high-quality aerial detectors ... But these are only dreams of a distant bright future and a failed past. And there is real life in this harsh and not very friendly world. There is an economic reality, a reality of the timing of construction and the factor of lost competencies. Even if the first aircraft carrier (Storm) is laid down in 2022, the fleet will not receive it until the beginning of the 30s ... If we are still allowed to live to see this bright time. Then, of course, we will have a "classic" deck - hoo - Su-57M with flat nozzles and laser cannons ...
              I’m talking about real things - UDCs will appear much earlier, they’re cheaper, they have a large deck and hangar, helicopters, escort ships ... and no air cover outside their native coastal zone ...
              Quote: NEOZ
              What does the MiG29K not suit you?

              Only that except Kuzi. he has nowhere to be based. And so it will be another 15 years, or even 20.
              Quote: NEOZ
              Vikramaditya completely digests the MiG29K .....

              And how much time did the Soviet TARKR rebuild into an aircraft carrier with aerofinishes and a springboard instead of a catapult?
              In aviation, everything has a price, and the vertical will always be inferior to its classmates in the maximum range and payload, but today it is only this. Eliminate the F-35’s inherent flaws that limited flight performance (a lifting fan and internal suspension compartments, inflated body to outrage, titanium instead of aluminum in the power pack) and you will get what Yakovlev Design Bureau should get - speed 2200 - 2300 km \ h at least, a radius of 800 km, about eight suspension nodes, and even quite likely - cruising supersonic up to Mach 1,5 (11 tons of after-thrust for a fighter with a normal take-off weight of 18 tons, this will provide), with a thrust weight of at least one at maximum take-off m weighing 20 tons. And all this without reference to the expensive hypothetical aircraft carrier, which will be only in the distant bright future. A conventional UDC or a converted tanker / container ship is enough.

              Quote: NEOZ
              Yes, and in the Air Force / VKS will not be superfluous.

              The ability to base outside large aerodromes will make it possible to disperse such aircraft during the threatened or war period and to avoid their defeat. Based on the islands of the Kuril ridge, in areas where there is no airfield network, the ability to start from disguised positions ...
              In the 60s - 70s and even 80s, the Soviet Army was still commanded by veterans of the Great Patriotic War, who paid great attention to the issues of the survival of aviation, the ability to base it on poorly prepared sites, camouflage, the possibility of its deployment outside the airfield network and ambush actions. Let us recall the "rocket" launch on accelerators with the MiG-19 guide and the operation of such complexes in Vietnam. That is why the number of built (not yet perfect) Yak-38 was over 200 pieces. , while their ships were based on the strength of five to six dozen. The rest had to act from camouflaged positions when all airfields had already been destroyed.
              1. Antipatr
                Antipatr 24 March 2019 07: 37
                -2
                Quote: bayard
                There is an economic reality

                So at them zhezh continuous cut and everything is expensive, and at us cheaper and asymmetrically?
      2. Errr
        Errr 18 March 2019 07: 21
        +1
        By weight F-135-PW-100/400 I looked at Wiki - 1701 kg ... what
        1. bayard
          bayard 18 March 2019 07: 46
          +3
          Perhaps 3 tons with a swivel nozzle, I did not look - from memory of two or three years. But even if the F-35 has a "dry engine" 1701 kg. , and the "Product" has about 1200 kg. (for it is said - lighter, and the photo shows that - shorter (with AL-31F in comparison)), it turns out that the advantage is almost one and a half times.
          1. MONTEVIDEO01
            MONTEVIDEO01 18 March 2019 15: 43
            0
            Quote: bayard
            Perhaps 3 tons with a swivel nozzle, I did not look - from memory of two or three years. But even if the F-35 has a "dry engine" 1701 kg. , and the "Product" has about 1200 kg. (for it is said - lighter, and the photo shows that - shorter (with AL-31F in comparison)), it turns out that the advantage is almost one and a half times.

            What confirms my words that the maximum thrust of the Product 30 is 12 000 kgs and the thrust on the afterburner is 18 000 kgs, the ratio of the maximum thrust to the afterburner is 2/3 to 1.
            "Specific gravity in aviation is usually called the ratio of the engine mass to its total thrust. For the promising" Product 30 "this figure is less than 0,1, that is, the engine is capable of delivering more than 10 times more thrust than it weighs itself. ratio of total thrust to engine air flow. "
            https://nplus1.ru/material/2019/03/06/engines
            The weight of the Product 30 is 1200 kg, and its maximum traction goes 12 000 kgs.
            1. Antipatr
              Antipatr 24 March 2019 07: 33
              0
              And why do you reckon in the calculations of 18 tons, and not 11?
              1. bayard
                bayard 24 March 2019 08: 22
                0
                The latest data on the maximum traction on the afterburner is 19,5 - 20 tons, and this is possible only with an increase in the maximum afterburner traction of about 12,5 - 13 tons. But until the tests of the exact figure are completed, we will not know. The numbers 11 and 18 tons can certainly be considered obsolete.
      3. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 20 March 2019 21: 24
        0
        Quote: bayard
        ..... For comparison - the first MiG-25 thrust on the afterburner was about 10 - 10,5 tons. And serial - 12,5 tons .........

        With the MiG-25, the comparison is not correct. He has an engine with a cruising regime designed for supersonic sound, and the compression of air at supersonic sound occurred mainly due to the shape of the air intake (as in straight-flow engines), and not the compressor of the engine (the compressor had three times less number of stages than the Su-27 engine). The thrust of one MiG-25 engine in two missiles is more than 20 tons.

        By the way, the engine in the photo is clearly from "Salyut" and not from "Saturn", but on the Su-57 it was planned to install the "Saturn" (the "Salyut" engine changes the thrust vector due to the nozzle blades themselves, and the "Saturn" nozzle pivots with part of the afterburner)
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 20 March 2019 21: 39
          0
          Quote: Bad_gr
          (for the "Salyutovsky" engine, the thrust vector changes due to the nozzle blades themselves, and for the "Saturnovsky" engine, the nozzle rotates with a part of the afterburner)

          The upper image is an engine with a variable thrust vector from "Salut", the lower one from "Saturn"

    3. 2329 Carpenter
      2329 Carpenter 18 March 2019 08: 21
      0
      I think admiration will increase much when an airplane with a new engine is shown on one of the MAKSs.
      And about the buzz of the pilots, I don’t know how to write ...
      good
  3. boathouse
    boathouse 18 March 2019 06: 24
    +6
    If they are not shielded, as on F-22, they will glow like a Christmas tree. Where in this case is stealth?
    1. alid
      alid 18 March 2019 07: 50
      +1
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58N6Plr17GU так?
    2. vic02
      vic02 18 March 2019 09: 02
      0
      Quote: varadero
      If they are not shielded, as on F-22, they will glow like a Christmas tree. Where in this case is stealth?

      Quote: alid
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58N6Plr17GU так?

      Shielding is what the photos of later prototypes tell us directly, as it were, for example, 511. They will shine like a Christmas tree like F-22 - on afterburner, but without afterburner - much weaker.
    3. MONTEVIDEO01
      MONTEVIDEO01 18 March 2019 15: 53
      -2
      Quote: varadero
      If they are not shielded, as on F-22, they will glow like a Christmas tree. Where in this case is stealth?

      There, technologies of the plasma engine, plasma ions, when leaving the engine, are scattered and do not give such an effect of noticeability as without using this technology, so on the F-35 and Su-57, so their engines do not shield.
      1. cyborg
        cyborg 18 March 2019 21: 51
        +4
        there is only plasma ignition. The same tail comes out of the nozzle as that of al41
  4. Ali Kokand
    Ali Kokand 18 March 2019 06: 40
    +5
    On the opponent / F 22 / p & w F 119 afterburner thrust 15900 kgf. And he's been flying for about 20 years. There were no particular problems with its engine. I wish the designers good luck.
    1. Evgeny Velikanov
      Evgeny Velikanov 18 March 2019 09: 57
      0
      Just the f-22 has a problem engine. And he was put on f-35
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 18 March 2019 11: 53
        +4
        And what are his problems? smile
        180 pieces of F-22, 360 pieces of F-35 ...
  5. jonht
    jonht 18 March 2019 06: 45
    +7
    And my question is different, why does everyone think that the engine of the first stage did not give cruising supersonic? After all, he officially does this, but the military did not like fuel consumption, which significantly reduced the radius of combat use, and there were questions about him in terms of thermal visibility, but he gave out suhsvuk at cruising speed .....
    1. bayard
      bayard 18 March 2019 08: 16
      +2
      And it gives out - Mach and a half, as if from a bush. It’s just that with the new engine it will be possible not to include the afterburner at all, unless, on take-off when ready, completely different horizons open. But it’s better to start up the series with a new engine, by then maybe they will finish the avionics - there is also not everything going smoothly.
    2. Sergey Valov
      Sergey Valov 18 March 2019 10: 36
      +2
      Do you know what cruising supersonic is?
      1. jonht
        jonht 18 March 2019 10: 57
        +1
        Then let's start with what cruising speed is. hi
        The main speed mode of movement, considered eco-economic to achieve maximum range.
        Accordingly, over-the-air cruising should take place at supersonic hi
        1. Voyager
          Voyager 18 March 2019 13: 19
          +2
          It also surprises me, especially in the light of mass hysteria on Western resources, that since the engine is only of the 1st stage and will be the 2nd, then the first is not capable of cruising supersonic, although the opposite was said a long time ago.

          Americans, who are interested in aviation, all come together as one that the Su-57 is recognized as an unsuccessful project by our own government and therefore stops the project and mass production. The engines are not capable of cruise sound, there is no stealth (how they determined it and calculated it is not clear) and that the F-22 will eat it for breakfast.
        2. Sergey Valov
          Sergey Valov 18 March 2019 13: 35
          0
          Quite right, but the tricky question is - will the SU 57 with the current engine at subsonic (about M 0,8 per 10 km) have a shorter range than at supersonic? Something is not believed.
          1. jonht
            jonht 19 March 2019 01: 01
            0
            Not knowing the exact fuel consumption in different modes, it will not be possible to calculate. But theoretically, it should fly less by sound, the speed is lower, and the consumption is not much less ....
            1. telobezumnoe
              telobezumnoe 20 March 2019 08: 40
              0
              Nothing like drag in a quadratic dependence on speed? the higher the speed, the higher the drag, the greater the power you need to apply, no matter how supersonic it cannot be more economical than subsonic, and the concept of cruising speed is very vague to say about fuel economy in relation to other modes
              1. jonht
                jonht 20 March 2019 09: 50
                0
                Then you forgot one moment, the difference in distance. For example: the flight time of the MIG-31 at a maximum speed of about an hour, and the distance will be about 3 thousand km, and at a minimum speed of about 1000 about 2 hours, which gives a distance of about 2 thousand km. Therefore, he has a speed mode in which he will fly the maximum distance.
                1. telobezumnoe
                  telobezumnoe 20 March 2019 11: 28
                  0
                  https://topwar.ru/80008-vpervye-rossiyskie-mig-31-nahodilis-v-polete-6-chasov-provedya-3-dozapravki-v-vozduhe.html можете самим посчитать ;)
                  1. telobezumnoe
                    telobezumnoe 20 March 2019 11: 40
                    0
                    combat radius of action with four P-33 missiles:

                    - at M = 2,35 - 720 km,

                    - at M = 0,85 - 1200 km,
  6. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 18 March 2019 08: 29
    0
    Will the installation of such turbojet engines on aircraft such as Su35S?
    1. Laughtermaster
      Laughtermaster 19 March 2019 01: 57
      0
      So far, such an engine is expensive for the 4th generation and at the same time, the Su-35 will compete in the market with 57m when, in theory, the 57th is replacing it.
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 19 March 2019 14: 37
        0
        Yes, but the engine, may Allah, be put into production in the coming years. And when will they start to do Su57 massively ?! A Su35S worked out, like Su30SM. and form the basis of the Air Force.
    2. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 20 March 2019 21: 50
      0
      Quote: Zaurbek
      Will the installation of such turbojet engines on aircraft such as Su35S?

      There was information that in the future the engines of the Su-57th will be put on the Su-35th. I just don’t remember whether the most modern or the one that is now in the first stage will be put on.
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 21 March 2019 06: 11
        0
        The one that is now - an AL-41 variant. with some changes such as a fully digital control system .. Su35S (Like the F-15) is quite a necessary machine and will survive a couple of modernizations. About 50 years (it seems to me) will remain in service.
  7. Е2 - Е4
    Е2 - Е4 18 March 2019 09: 36
    -3
    The EXCELLENT FELLOWS is impressive, only between the words and deeds we have an abyss. Something but to say and tell what we are doing there ... wow, how we roll it out, you just get scared
  8. Livonetc
    Livonetc 18 March 2019 10: 35
    0
    The article is interesting and of high quality.
    Thank you!
    1. E.S.
      E.S. 18 March 2019 11: 59
      +7
      Especially the author succeeded in the maxim about "curved channels with flat flaps behind the engine".
      In such cases, it is customary to "silently stretch out an empty box", because the author's grass is excellent, if it stuck
  9. Surgeon_XXX
    Surgeon_XXX 18 March 2019 11: 11
    -2
    If everything works out with product 30, then why not install it on the MiG-31, this will give it new opportunities.
    1. jonht
      jonht 19 March 2019 01: 03
      0
      The minus is not mine, but I will try to answer. First, thrust, engines 31 are much more powerful. The second size of the motorcycle racer, a lot more pleasing than product 30.
      1. Surgeon_XXX
        Surgeon_XXX April 10 2019 09: 54
        0
        D30F6 thrust: at a maximum of 9500 on afterburner 15500, product 30: 10700 and 17000 kg of force. (I think this data is still close to real). And where is the craving for relatives more? Weight is 800 kg more, which means you can take an additional 1600 kg of fuel or other load. The fact that engines are smaller is not a problem at all, the main thing is that there would be no more.
        1. jonht
          jonht April 10 2019 14: 28
          0
          Here I do not agree, dimensions of 31 are important and the engine there is also an element of the power structure of the airframe, if you install a new engine, then in the same dimensions and withstanding the same loads.
          1. Surgeon_XXX
            Surgeon_XXX April 17 2019 15: 01
            0
            I don’t think adapting the engine to size will be a problem, and with durability too. Su-57 is also not cardboard and is designed for serious loads.
  10. gridasov
    gridasov 18 March 2019 11: 45
    0
    It is interesting to read that the parameters are obtained above, and the engine is usual in architecture and processes
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 18 March 2019 22: 36
      0
      Mb new materials?
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 18 March 2019 22: 54
        0
        If the process is constructed in such a way that it causes resistance, heating and destruction at first, then the algorithm is already not being traced towards the effective operation of the engine. Therefore, a temporary solution can be found in this way, but the prospect is obvious.
  11. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 18 March 2019 11: 51
    0
    "In the mid 20s"
    That is, the Su-57 will go into production no earlier than in 7 years.
  12. A1845
    A1845 18 March 2019 12: 44
    0
    An important feature of the design, providing new opportunities, is the change in the bypass ratio.

    I love such articles - they didn’t even say which way change
    clearly closed topic what
    1. lukewarm
      lukewarm 19 March 2019 12: 24
      0
      As I understand it, a change is a degree of bypass that changes in flight. Well, what will happen there - a bypass or an adjustable mixer will be washed down ... But I wanted to laugh about the three-circuit. But he did not yet. Engine theory is forgotten, but IMHO this is some kind of skid
  13. bk0010
    bk0010 18 March 2019 14: 24
    +1
    Hmm, Pratt & Whitney never caught up ... But there is not much left.
  14. Demagogue
    Demagogue 18 March 2019 14: 33
    0
    Quote: Herrr
    According to various estimates, the su-57 cruising supersonic speed without the use of afterburner, provided by two engines with a thrust of 11000 kgf each, can reach M = 1,5.
    If this is true, then I am in awe! good

    And what exactly do you admire? WITH
    Quote: Voyager
    It also surprises me, especially in the light of mass hysteria on Western resources, that since the engine is only of the 1st stage and will be the 2nd, then the first is not capable of cruising supersonic, although the opposite was said a long time ago.

    Americans, who are interested in aviation, all come together as one that the Su-57 is recognized as an unsuccessful project by our own government and therefore stops the project and mass production. The engines are not capable of cruise sound, there is no stealth (how they determined it and calculated it is not clear) and that the F-22 will eat it for breakfast.

    So by American standards, the su-57 and engines of the 2nd stage do not have cruising supersonic. With them, it starts from 1.6 m, and f-22 1.8 m can.
    But the f-35 did not begin to do cruising supersonic (only a stripped-down version). The plane is very hot when flying at high speeds and is unmasked. It is not always possible to apply this mode.
    1. Herman 4223
      Herman 4223 18 March 2019 20: 52
      0
      What are you talking about ? su-57 cruising supersonic 2m. And afterburner it is 500km faster than the raptor.
    2. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 22 March 2019 21: 59
      0
      Quote: Demagogue
      So by American standards, the su-57 and engines of the 2nd stage do not have cruising supersonic. With them, it starts from 1.6 m, and f-22 1.8 m can.

      To begin with, there are no adjusting wedges in the F-22 ducts (for the sake of stealth), so even in afterburner its speed is hardly more than 1800 km / h, I’m silent about a similar speed without afterburner.
      The Su-57 has no problems with this. Please note that the sweep of the wing of the Su-57 has a sharper angle. In other words, the aircraft glider is designed for high cruising speed.

      Quote: Demagogue
      But the f-35 did not begin to do cruising supersonic (only a stripped-down version). The plane is very hot when flying at high speeds and is unmasked. It is not always possible to apply this mode.

      This is called "making a good face on a bad game." They did not manage to create a sufficient power-to-weight ratio of the aircraft so that it would be able to go to supersonic without afterburner. The same picture with maneuverability - they could not, therefore, they fill in that it is not needed in FIG on a modern aircraft.
  15. Demagogue
    Demagogue 18 March 2019 15: 18
    -2
    Quote: Voyager

    Americans, who are interested in aviation, all come together as one that the Su-57 is recognized as an unsuccessful project by our own government and therefore stops the project and mass production. The engines are not capable of cruise sound, there is no stealth (how they determined it and calculated it is not clear) and that the F-22 will eat it for breakfast.


    Two main parameters are stealth and radar capabilities.

    By inconspicuousness of the obvious minuses - the blades are not covered by the bend of the air ducts. But on one of the prototypes of the f-22, the Americans also had open blades. From some angles affects, from some not, on visibility. And so are the properties of materials - what percentage of radiation can be absorbed. It is obvious that the Americans here have gone further for so many years. Plus the rationality of the angle of inclination of the elements. In general, this part is to some extent solvable. Of course, the culture of production and service should still be on top - the smoothest surfaces are needed on the fuselage.

    But with the radar, everything is bad. We do not have radar with afar on any serial car. Hindus have even finished theirs. MiG-35 with afar just starting to produce. In what state of the radar for the su-57 - only God knows. But it is hardly much better if no one even offers to replace an irbis with a radar from afar.
    1. Herman 4223
      Herman 4223 18 March 2019 20: 33
      +1
      The competitor F22 YF-23 sparkled with his shoulder blades, but somehow it turned out that this plane was better by the criteria of stealth.
      1. Philby
        Philby 25 May 2019 14: 59
        0
        just in the YF-23 S-shaped air intakes, the F22 shines with blades

    2. gridasov
      gridasov 18 March 2019 23: 00
      +1
      I will only note on one issue that smooth surfaces at supersonic speeds ionize faster and have a higher potential. Therefore, this must be taken into account
  16. san4es
    san4es 18 March 2019 18: 18
    +2
    ... "Product 30" is a dual-circuit turbojet engine with afterburner. At the level of some basic ideas, it resembles the older engines of the AL-31 and AL-41 families ....
    FSUE SALUT modernization AL-31F part 2.VOB
    Posted Dec 18 2010 ........................ soldier
  17. Laughtermaster
    Laughtermaster 18 March 2019 18: 21
    -1
    No joke about a very noisy engine in a supersonic fighter?
  18. Demagogue
    Demagogue 18 March 2019 20: 53
    0
    Quote: Herman 4223
    The competitor F22 YF-23 sparkled with his shoulder blades, but somehow it turned out that this plane was better by the criteria of stealth.

    I know, it is formulated not quite right. Killed yf-23 in the end, not for the shoulder blades. On the contrary, in the end, he was at the level of f-22 EPR. Despite the shoulder blades. And in the infrared range is much more secretive. This was said by the chief scientist of Northrop in an interview. No one will make such childhood mistakes when the commission considers every hundred emr. The shoulder blades are a fetish.
  19. Demagogue
    Demagogue 18 March 2019 21: 00
    -1
    Quote: Herman 4223
    What are you talking about ? su-57 cruising supersonic 2m. And afterburner it is 500km faster than the raptor.

    Why are you here? Missed you on Wikipedia. But in general ... Why not? Even 2500 mph non-cruising cruising can ... Probably)) I do not mind if it is easier for you.
  20. sss17
    sss17 19 March 2019 05: 41
    0
    Secondary airflow and compression indicated too low
  21. pafegosoff
    pafegosoff 19 March 2019 15: 50
    +1
    And what about the Urals with engine building?
    Two disabled people - Omsk and Tyumen? But in the 1970s and 80s, they were quite active.
    And now the United States has imposed an embargo on the supply of engines to shipyards.
    And motor factories need to parallelly release aircraft engines more intensively. With regards to the Volga plants, they are overloaded along the way ...
    "and instead of a heart - a fiery motor."
  22. Backbone
    Backbone 22 March 2019 02: 06
    -3
    There is nothing breakthrough, but sorry. Well, a little improved performance, again with an afterburner.
  23. Antipatr
    Antipatr 24 March 2019 08: 25
    +1
    A flat nozzle is being developed that can reduce aircraft visibility in different spectra.

    And how they scolded the F-22 for the flat nozzle, how they scolded! Maneuverability they say is bad, in contrast to our all-aspect. And the very concept of "stealth" is still not recognized. Yes Irbis, yes 91N6E - we see all the "stealth"!
    It is unclear then, why build stealth frigates and Su-57? The Su-35, on the other hand, breaks a hot water bottle like a tuzik. Or is it so, for their suckers?
  24. itarnmag
    itarnmag 27 May 2019 10: 48
    0
    When this engine is launched into production, the aircraft will become obsolete. Moreover, I don’t remember something that we don’t miss deadlines. Moreover, there are ardent opponents of this aircraft in high spheres. This can be seen even from the plans for its release