PAK FA vs F-22

107
PAK FA vs F-22

At the end of the last century in the United States to upgrade tactical aviation two aircraft creation programs were launched. The level of technology being laid allows us to talk about a new, fifth generation of fighter jets. They in the 21st century were to become the basis of the US Air Force. These two machines had to complement each other in air operations, performing each of its functions. Under the ATF program (Advanced Tactical Fighter - an advanced tactical fighter), an aircraft was created, mainly for air combat and gaining air supremacy. According to the JSF program (Joint Strike Fighter - a single strike fighter) - an aircraft for attacking ground targets. I must say that the principle was absolutely correct, since the “universal breed of pilots” has not yet been bred, and the pilots of modern aviation still have either “bombing” or “fighter” specialization. Only unique pilots can cope equally well with both tasks. About the same thing can be said about airplanes: the features of the tasks performed dictate the characteristics and appearance of the aircraft. However, both programs, during their implementation, have undergone significant changes in the direction of greater universality. Ultimately, the ATF program gave the F-22 Raptor, and the JSF gave the F-35.

F-22 became the first aircraft to fulfill the requirements of the “fifth generation”, the main ones being the following: low visibility (in the radar and infrared ranges), flight characteristics other than its predecessors (“super-maneuverability” and supersonic speed in the engineless mode of engines), a perfect complex of onboard radio-electronic equipment (avionics) and weapons. Despite any criticism (including the exorbitant cost, which did not allow to make the plane massive) - the Raptor meets these requirements, and is one of the best air combat fighters. With regard to the function of striking ground targets, it appeared in his tasks at a rather early stage of the project adjustment, as additional opportunities. The fact that these tasks were not essential led to a rather modest set of means for defeating ground targets: two 450-kg bombs GBU-32 JDAM or eight GBU-39 bombs, weighing 113 kg. Place a more serious set of weapons "air-to-surface" do not allow the size of the internal compartments of weapons, designed primarily for air-to-air missiles. And the suspension on the external nodes negates the advantages - deprives the aircraft of low radar visibility and high maneuverability characteristics.

Meanwhile, over time, the shock functions began to be considered for F-22 as the main ones, because the US Air Force took part in the hostilities with the enemy, who practically did not have their own aircraft. With the catastrophe of the Soviet Union, it seemed that the Raptor would not see a worthy opponent in the sky at all. And the airborne fighter became a bomber with weak capabilities for work on the ground, and strong but unnecessary in reality capabilities for air targets. But the change in the alignment of forces led to another interesting fact - the main opponent of the aircraft was not another aircraft, but air defense weapons, the main successes in the creation of which belong to us. Here, low visibility and the capabilities of avionics, of course, very useful. But the capabilities of the Raptor in actions against the enemy's air defense, rested on the fact that the plane was not designed for this purpose initially. For example, the absence of an AGM-88 HARM anti-radar missile in its arsenal is compensated by the perfection of the onboard reconnaissance complex. But, in order to defeat air defense objects, the Raptor will have to rely on adjustable bombs that have a shorter range. That is, he will have to come closer to enemy air defenses, instead of launching a rocket from a distance of 100 km. At the same time, as everyone remembers, it was at the time of the opening of the arms of the weapon compartment that one of the two * F-117 “invisibles” shot down in the sky of Yugoslavia fell under the distribution, having ceased to be “invisible” at that moment. And all the statistics of real combat operations indicate that most of the losses do not occur at the stage of searching for a target or approaching it, but at the exit from the attack. From this point of view, the work of the “invisible” in the near zone of the air defense looks suicidal, despite the excellence of the avionics and the low visibility. And the Raptor remains the work on the ground in the zone, already cleared from the system of air defense, using a limited set of weapons. But much simpler machines can cope with this task. Thus, the F-22 remains the fighter of air combat, which was originally planned. And the shock tasks and the breakthrough / destruction of the air defense should, for the most part, be assigned to some other machines.

Well, for percussion functions, it seems that a plane was created using the JSF program. However, this program has also undergone many changes, compared with the original plan. First of all, almost immediately the United States partner countries joined in, who wanted to get a full-fledged multi-purpose aircraft under the ban on the export of F-22. Secondly, the Americans themselves wanted to replace almost all types of their rather disparate fleet with one new machine (F-15, F-16 and А-10 - in the Air Force; F-18 and EA-6 "Prouler" - in the Navy; AV- 8 "Harrier" - in the ILC). As a result, the F-35 of all three modifications (for three customers - Air Force, Navy and ILC) appeared the following tactical tasks: striking ground targets, gaining air superiority and providing direct aviation support to troops. So from an unobtrusive attack aircraft, he began to turn into a universal aircraft, which was supposed to be a fighter too. At the same time, the F-35 received limited maneuverability and flight characteristics from its shock specialization, which do not allow us to consider it a fifth-generation airplane, but only the so-called “4 +”. Let's see how F-35 should handle its new tasks.

Let's start with the support of the troops. In the ILC, this function is performed by Harrier, whose main advantage is vertical landing. The disadvantages include a small combat radius and poor protection (which is very important for an attack aircraft). But Harrier’s weapons range is very diverse: unguided missiles and free-falling bombs, cluster munitions, AGM-65 Maverick guided air-to-surface missiles, adjustable bombs, and even AIM-9 melee air-to-air missiles. On the navy F-18 - rather a versatile aircraft, which in addition to the main purpose (bomber and attack aircraft) has good opportunities for air combat and attack ships. The Air Force had a clean A-10 attack aircraft, specially designed to support troops on the battlefield, which, in addition to weapons, was well protected.

F-35 - the car is quite complicated and expensive. Just like the F-22, which has a perfect and complex avionics complex, low visibility, as well as the information and control field of the cabin, greatly facilitating the work of the pilot. However, the technology of low visibility and size restrictions (the requirement of the Navy, ILC and foreign customers) did not allow the plane to be protected either constructively or with the help of armor. In addition, the F-35 is an aircraft of “dense layout”, that is, a lot of complex systems are packed in fairly modest dimensions, which further increases its vulnerability even from a slight defeat. A attack aircraft should work on the front line from low altitudes, for a long time, being in the battle zone and making several passes on various targets during one sortie. Here he will be subjected to shelling of anti-aircraft missile systems of close combat and anti-aircraft artillery, for which the stealth technology is not an obstacle, since the fire is conducted on the directly observed target or in the visible range, with optical guidance. For example, domestic air-defense missiles “Tunguska” and “Pantsir” have the possibility of hitting targets in a passive radar mode, with automatic capture, tracking and guidance on a television optical channel (capture of an optically contrasting target against the sky or moving against the background of the horizon / terrain, if the target is goes at low altitude). Modern Western MANPADS are not equipped with IR homing heads, but operate in semi-automatic mode with radio command or laser guidance.

The F-35 weapons nomenclature, although wider than the Raptor, is intended not only to support the troops on the battlefield, but to shock tasks that require a short stay in the attack zone, which is understandable, given the machine’s vulnerability. The F-35A and F-35C armament compartments can hold more adjustable and free-fall bombs (two for 900-kg, or four for 450-kg, or more light ones). In the F-35B, they have almost half the capacity. However, the main suspension for attack aircraft weapons (unguided and anti-tank missiles) is possible on external nodes, which, just like in the case of the F-22, makes the aircraft radio-contrast and degrades flight performance, nullifying its advantage. In this case, the survivability of the aircraft is not assault, and the use of, for example, helicopter anti-tank missiles "Brimston" (in the English version) with a supersonic machine, it is possible only in sterile polygon conditions.

For strike operations against previously reconnoitered targets, the F-35 has a wider arsenal than the F-22. The ability to survive without a long stay in the air defense coverage area, approaching the target along pre-calculated courses and altitudes, and trying to avoid defeat after dropping bombs, is approximately similar to the Raptor. Here, expensive avionics and stealth technologies are fully justified. But the weapon bays are again not designed for “long arm weapons”, which means that the same F-15, F-16 and F-18, which do not have low visibility, but are able to work from a greater range, will solve the same tasks with less risk. The external suspension practically equalizes the capabilities of the F-35 and cheaper cars of the previous generation. The development of high-precision weapons is increasingly making the aircraft only a platform for its delivery. And the internal suspension of only two tons of small-sized ammunition limits the use of the F-35 in conditions of strong air defense only to especially important, point targets. At the same time, the fight against air defense will be little predictable, or will fall on the shoulders of other means (for example, subtle strike drones, which are still being designed, and whose effectiveness against next-generation air defenses is still an open question).

But maybe the F-35 is able to replace a full-fledged fighter in air combat? After all, its complex avionics and weapons "air-to-air" on the possibilities is not much inferior to the F-22. However, it is much inferior to the Raptor in flight characteristics, which does not allow to consider it, as stated above, a full fighter of the fifth generation. It turned out that in air combat, the excellence of avionics and low visibility is not able to replace them. In August, the X-NUMX of the year in Hawaii was a simulation of F-2008 air battles with Russian cars (with characteristics similar to those of the Su-35). The virtual air war was attended by the Aussies, as customers of the F-30. Of course, the simulation results are closed, and the Americans have repeatedly denied the failure of F-35. Nevertheless, the results led to the freezing of the purchase of these aircraft by Australia, and a member of the liberal party, Dennis Jensen, who was familiar with the report, did not disclose the details, saying that the “Sukhye” beat F-35 like penguins! ”However, the same result was with quite open Australian and Malaysian exercises, in which Malaysian Su-35 beat all Australian F-30 X-NUMX duels in aerial combat, as well as four out of five two-on-one fights. Perhaps the chances of the F-18 versus the Su-32 are slightly higher than those of the non-modern Australian aircraft, which led only to freezing, but not canceling the purchase. Nevertheless, it is clear that the F-35 is not able to outperform even a fourth-generation airplane in air combat, despite the excellence of the onboard systems and low visibility.

So, the F-35 as well as the F-22 remained in the niche for which it was originally planned. These aviation complexes can complement each other as part of an air operation, where the pinpoint strikes on the ground of F-35 hide behind enemy aviation of the F-22. At the same time for both cars the greatest danger will be represented by air defense weapons, which both aircraft cannot fully combat. Understanding this, the Americans are launching a program to develop a new universal rocket NGM. It is based on the mid-range AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile, which is the basis of the F-22 and F-35 anti-aircraft weapons. The new missile must have a longer range than the AMRAAM and the possibility of using it against air defense radar stations, while maintaining the overall dimensions (to fit in the armaments compartments of both aircraft). Perhaps her appearance will somehow change the current situation. True, if the developers (Lockheed and Raytheon on a competitive basis) succeed in satisfying the requirement of universality, without losing the effectiveness of each of the tasks, and maintaining the same size. Well, and if the means of air defense will not develop, and even degrade a little, compared to current capabilities.

Now the Americans themselves admit that their air fleet was not in a situation similar to the present, for the entire post-war history. The average age of the fleet is about 25 years. In the foreseeable future, a large number of combat aircraft for various purposes are to be written off. At the same time, replacing them with new ones does not represent a near-term perspective, since the production of the F-22 has been discontinued, and the F-35 is not yet a “finished to the mind” machine, besides causing a lot of criticism. Replacing many types of aircraft on the F-35, even if it occurs in an optimistic time frame and at a good pace, will not be complete, since its functionality is questionable. In the most difficult situation will be the Navy and the ILC. In the case of the complete replacement of ship-borne aviation only on F-35, the fleet will lose its previous shock capabilities (especially in actions against enemy ship groupings). And since all the programs of deck fighters of air superiority are curtailed with the hope of F-35, the anti-aircraft component of the US carrier-assault groupings will also weaken. The Marine Corps has already lost hope for the new machines and extends the life of the Harriers (whose production has been discontinued) to 2030, having purchased the 72 from the British for decommissioned aircraft for parts analysis. To get out of this situation, Americans will be upgrading and conducting overhaul of the existing fleet, of course, where it is possible, and probably buying new cars of the fourth generation.

Against this background, the prospects of other countries developing their own combat aviation programs do not look bad at all. US partners in the North Atlantic Alliance, who did not hope for the American F-35, may be the owners of a completely modern and capable air fleet, even without the fifth generation. So France, which became the locomotive of the air operation in the sky of Libya, turned out to be the owner of its own fighter of the 4 + generation Rafale, which, at least in combat capabilities, is not inferior to the F-35. The fifth-generation fighter programs are being developed by Japan, China, South Korea and Indonesia together, and Russia together with India. These programs started later than the American, taking into account the American experience and mistakes, as well as the latest technical advances.

Russia, like the United States, has a large fleet of aircraft with a close to the maximum service life. His combat readiness is also supported by overhaul and modernization. For the time being, Americans are balancing on the verge of making a decision: either continue to pull the F-35 program, or go back to purchasing new aircraft of the old design, or combine both solutions. The last two options compromising the F-35 in the foreign market, and in the case of failure by partners to make purchases, make the cost of a new aircraft excessive and useless. Unlike the Americans, we have already launched a program to re-equip the Air Force on the 4 + generation aircraft, which, at a minimum, are not inferior in combat capabilities to the F-35 (Su-34, Su-30CM, Su-35 and updated versions of the MiG-29) . The program of the fifth generation fighter PAK FA has a number of advantages over the US.

We have a new generation of aircraft was originally understood as an aviation system consisting of the aircraft itself and of its weapons and avionics, which, depending on the tasks, will dictate the appearance and characteristics of the machine. The programs of the MFI (multifunctional fighter) and LPI (light front fighter), which were held in parallel with the US programs, which are almost similar in purpose, did not receive a real embodiment after the catastrophe of the Soviet Union. At the beginning of 2000-x it was decided to resume work. At the same time, when it became clear that the new machine should become universal in use, and not a clean interceptor or strike aircraft - the previous projects did not become under new requirements, but went to the basket.

The main parameters of the PAK FA is not inferior to the Raptor.

Radar visibility is usually calculated as EPR (effective scattering surface of electromagnetic energy reflected from an aircraft) and expressed in square meters, taking as a reference the reflection from an “ideal sphere” with the same reflection characteristics as the object under study, the measure of the area of ​​this sphere . If the Su-27 EPR is of the order of 12-13 sq.m., then for PAK FA this value is 0,3-0,4 sq.m., which is similar to the F-22 indicator. Here, however, it should be noted that in real conditions, the detection by radar means strongly depends on the angle of exposure, on the wavelength and its changes in the process of irradiation. In general, for the domestic means of detecting air defense and on-board radars of aircraft, the car, made "by stealth technology" presents no difficulties with detection. The “complex reflective form” of an actively maneuvering aircraft will be much more useful for disrupting a rocket attack with radar homing. However, even here the domestic weapon is not the first day preparing for a meeting with the "invisible". So, the “invisibility” of the guests will not be a big advantage, while Western developers, considering the “stealth” technology as their prerogative, have until recently paid little attention to the fight against it.

The PAK FA airborne radar complex - H036, consists of active phased array antennas (AFAR), which are located in various elements of the airframe (in the nose fairing, in the slats, in the toes of the wings, on the side surfaces), can operate in several ranges, provide almost all-round visibility. This solution is similar to that applied on the Raptor. The characteristics of the complex are not known, however, the capabilities of domestic radars, which are used for aircraft of previous generations, are comparable to American ones, or are superior to them. Just like on the Raptor, the PAK-FA complex can work in the passive mode, conducting reconnaissance of radio-emitting targets without its own radiation, as well as determining the coordinates of the targets from the reflected signal from other sources that will interact with the PAK FA on the battlefield. Also, electronic countermeasure systems are included in the avionics complex. The avionics complex is complemented by an optical-electronic integrated system (OEIS) - the product 101X. It consists of: a defensive system (101 КС-0), which provides countermeasures to means of destruction using infrared guidance; a full range ultraviolet viewing system (101 KS-U), which detects the work of jet and rocket engines; a quantum (laser) location system (101 KS-B), which detects targets and determines their coordinates in the optical range; multi-channel optical sighting system (101 KS-N), providing the use of weapons (mainly for ground targets). All elements of the avionics complex are integrated with each other and with external sources, the complex has a large computing power and high automation, it is made entirely on the domestic element base, including the computing part.

The flight characteristics of the PAK FA are superior to the F-22. Although the engines existing at this stage are inferior to those of the United States, they even allow the PAK FA to have sufficient thrust-to-weight ratio and provide cruising supersonic speed in the driveless mode. The maneuverability of the aircraft exceeds the Raptor. The F-22 design, which is dictated by the requirements of the stealth technology, played a role here: the wing has a high inductive resistance, its flat profiles have poor bearing properties, which are not compensated by other aerodynamic solutions. The engines are located close to each other, which is done so that in the frontal projection the blades of the engine compressors are not illuminated on the radars (the air channel is curved from the air intakes located widely on the sides of the fuselage). Coupled with the need to accommodate the four internal weapons bays, this made the fuselage oversized in the center section. In the PAK FA, the engines are separated from the longitudinal axis of the aircraft, which made it possible to impart bearing properties to the whole structure and to increase the thrust of the arm during maneuvering. In addition, this made it possible to make a large central weapons bay capable of holding a weapon inaccessible to the Raptor due to the size of the compartments. And to cover the engine compressors in nacelles with a relatively straight air path, the original solution is applied - a radar blocker. This device is made of composite material, having curved blades that allow air flow through but close the compressor itself from direct radar light. From the point of view of aerodynamics, this design is not very simple, because the curved air flow radar-blocker must be synchronized with the engine and not have disturbances and seals that interfere with its work in different modes. However, the gain in this case will be not only in the area of ​​radar visibility, but also in the length of the air path, which is smaller, the smaller the “empty” volume of the structure and, accordingly, its dimensions and weight. Thanks to all these solutions, the PAK FA has better turning rates than the Raptor; better handling in the vertical and horizontal planes, both at supersonic and at low speeds. In addition, the spaced engines increase the survivability of the aircraft, and the possibility of flight with a failure or defeat of one of the engines is provided by their location relative to the axis of symmetry of the aircraft in the form of the letter “V”, thanks to which the thrust vector will pass near the center of gravity of the aircraft.

In conclusion, it should be noted the best armament of the domestic machine. Its versatility and diversity allows the PAK FA to be used as a strike aircraft or fighter, choosing for any of the selected tasks the corresponding nomenclature of weapons and pilots, without prejudice to the capabilities.

An arsenal of air combat vehicles will include new short-range missiles (presumably K-MD or an 300 product of Vympel ICD), which will be equipped with a matrix homing head with target recognition capability (!) Doubled in capture range and automatic corrections from avionics aircraft in flight, which is necessary in case of failure of the seizure, launching out of sight of the target (shooting "behind the back") or changing the priority target. It will also become an aircraft missile defense tool. Along with it, there will be a simpler rocket, an upgrade of the P-73, demonstrated at the last MAKS, like the RVV-MD (this is the “760” product of the same “Pennant”). It is possible not only with the optical homing head, but also with the 9B-1103М radar 150-mm radar, developed by the Research Institute Agat. Until now, the creation of an active RGSN for short-range missiles was considered technically impossible, since its dimensions should be comparable with optical heads. Nevertheless, it was possible to domestic designers.

At medium range (about 100 km - for Americans it is already a long range) there will be a new generation of RVV-AE (Р-77) - РВВ-СД (К-77М or product “180”). It has a new multi-mode active-passive homing head, which will direct the missile at sources of interference and radiating radar; flat rudders instead of lattice, for ease of placement in the weapon compartment (maneuverability is preserved due to gas-dynamic control) and also a correction from avionics. At long range (up to 200 km.), There are even several different options. These include the RVV-BD (an upgraded version of the P-37, which in turn is the development of the P-33 - the “main caliber” of the MiG-31), and the RVV-PD with a direct-flow jet engine, and the KS-172, developed by NPO “ Innovator".

Arsenal for percussion functions, no less impressive. Adjustable bombs (KAB) of the traditional 500 and 1500 kg calibers, are supplemented with a new, 250 kg caliber. Different types of targeting: inertial, satellite, television, thermal imaging, laser, passive radar, as well as options combined. Almost the same targeting options are provided for the X-40М short-range missile (up to 38 km). The X-58USHKE, often demonstrated at trade shows, is a version of the well-proven X-58, featuring a new homing head, increased to 250-km launch range and folding rudders to be placed in the weapons compartment. Back in 1992, an anti-ship version of this rocket was adopted, characterized by a flight path, a seeker and a warhead. It can be assumed that for the PAK FA there is such an option. Information on a new more distant weapon PAK FA is not yet open. However, it can use almost all of the aviation armaments currently available, at least from an external suspension, the nodes of which are clearly visible even on test machines (under the wings and engine nacelles). For example, the Indians participating in the project reported that the Bramos version of the anti-ship missile (the name of the domestic version is Onyx, the export for third countries is Yakhont) is being prepared, specifically for placement on the Indian version of PAK FA.

A third car is being tested now, on which a part of the avionics is already installed (in particular, the radar). On the fourth PAK FA, which will take off this year, some weapons will be tested. At the stage of the beginning of the assembly, there are two more sides, however, their appearance can be changed according to the results of passing tests.
107 comments
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  1. +33
    20 June 2012 10: 48
    To the author: thank you for the comparative extensive analysis! Maybe I searched poorly, but I had never seen anything like it before.
    1. VAF
      VAF
      +8
      20 June 2012 12: 04
      Quote: Kurkul
      Maybe I searched poorly, but I had never seen anything like it before.


      I looked very badly, because similar articles wherever you stick in the internet, +!
      1. 755962
        +3
        20 June 2012 15: 32
        Quote: veteran.air force
        similar articles wherever you stick in the internet

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXKTwQB8Vbw http://soneta.ru/milavia/Blogs/default/ http://mixednews.ru/archives/16751 It will be more realistic in demonstration "competitions" ... if any.
        1. +2
          20 June 2012 18: 01
          The coming years 20 only if in a military conflict.
          1. Fidain
            0
            21 June 2012 00: 55
            V blizhaishie 20 let oni vryat li po voyuyut ... Ix yesho ochen malo
  2. escobar
    -22
    20 June 2012 10: 48
    We got these hat-fighters Pak-Fakis. The raptor has been mass-produced since 2001 and has been improving all the time. Entire squadrons are on combat duty. And here are three prototypes and they have all broken. It’s enough to tickle the pride of schoolchildren. Finish the job and prove it to the whole world.
    1. raptorr
      -27
      20 June 2012 11: 30
      The article is really very extensive and detailed. BUT
      Even if PAK FA is better than Raptor - "Finish the case and prove to the whole world."
      Although not the fact that it turns out to be better. In any case, Americans = pioneers. Honor and praise. Once again + article in terms of vastness, although it is blinkered.
      1. +12
        20 June 2012 12: 00
        raptor, I understand it's a shame, but read about the pioneers here.
        http://www.cnw.mk.ua/weapons/airforce/svvp/yak141.htm
        I did not want to repeat this topic a lot.
        1. VAF
          VAF
          0
          20 June 2012 12: 19
          Quote: vorobey
          raptor, I understand it's a shame, but read about the pioneers here.


          Winged, hello, +! I read and didn’t understand, and where does the Yak-141 and T-50 ???

          Yes, our T-50 is 20-30 years behind the technologies that amers did ?!



          1. +21
            20 June 2012 13: 10
            Seryozha, you know I'm not a pilot. It’s hard for me to act as an expert in such disputes. and all the more clever to talk about the superiority of one over the other and the technologies used. I do not care better or worse F22. I know one thing that our flyers don’t obsessed with flying with a lack of oxygen in the mask, and they don’t obsessed even with an old car to go head-on.

            And about 141 for some reason they abandoned this scheme. and found an indirect reason.
            As far as I know, the British refuse (not to lie) F22 or F35 with a similar decision. I mean vertical take-off and landing.

            By the way, as far as I remember, against the technology of invisibility, the Chinese have found a simple and effective solution. Who observed the relationship between a close plane and interference on a television. he will understand.

            And Seryozha the plane should fly and justify its name itself. not leaflets. And let us harness for a long time, I hope it will fly fast.
            1. VAF
              VAF
              +7
              20 June 2012 13: 46
              Quote: vorobey
              And let us harness for a long time, I hope it will fly fast.


              Winged, here is absolutely right, +! That's what I'm talking about. that you can’t rush, and even more so with new technologies !!!!

              Already on the 16th (!!!!!) flight, 1 already flew aerobatics (they said it was necessary !!!) well, it should be so necessary ..... you know the result? 1 is worth it, and with its "tail" now 2 flies, what for is it needed for such a show ????

              Everything is going on calmly, and let it go for itself and at least URYAyakalok, but Prikazchikov has already made all the rockets and brought 15 pieces to the test .... but say nothing !!!

              To date, we have reached from 1 to 3, and God forbid that 4 would take off by the end of the year with the "plan" that they are planning!



              So so many new things have already been tested that ... you’ll jump:



              PCN alone, which allows performing combat maneuvers (we’ll leave aerobatics. This is for shows) at speeds lower than + using non-after-engine modes of operation + increase in angular movements, well, asynchronous nozzle deviation is added to this, then we get an advantage over all Amer’s cars at the exit, and in full it is possible that the T-50 will exceed both the Su-35 and Su-30, because PGO in this case cannot take such functions upon itself.

              + to all PCN allows you to get away from the curvature of the air intakes like that of amers and eureka (curvature is a guarantee of surging) and all the same, they all come to radar blockers1
        2. Igorboss16
          +6
          20 June 2012 13: 23
          in order to become a pioneer, you need to show those technical characteristics that are required, and submit them officially, I think the amers hastened to call the raptor the fifth generation, since some of our samples show the best results on our heads and all the experts know about it, and the raptor’s maneuverability doesn’t compares even with our sou 27
        3. postman
          +5
          20 June 2012 23: 37
          Quote: vorobey
          but about the pioneers read here.

          The question was not for me, but most interesting:
          What does the Yak-141 / Yak-141M have to do with 5th generation aircraft?

          If the design of the PMD nozzle is the same as 35 (ours were passed by permission of the EBN), this does not mean that the UC is the first movers in generation 5.

          Neither the fuselage (has a rectangular cross-section and is made according to the area rule), nor the air intakes, neither the keels of the VO, nor the nozzles are optimized for the invisibility of +2 (fixed) flaps from below
          26% KM- for light weight, aluminum-lithium alloy, titanium, hardened steel

          Maximum speed, km / h - at the ground - 1250 - at an altitude of 11 km - 1800, supersonic afterburner. There is no cruising

          Four / six underwing pylons and only gun inside the fuselage.
      2. -11
        20 June 2012 19: 08
        Quote: raptorr
        Even if PAK FA is better than Raptor

        Why are we silent about:
        After all, PAK FA is stolen from the beloved uncle Sam Hychnik! After all, they are so similar!
        And the dissimilarity is because we could not fully reproduce the ingenious thought of its designers!
    2. +8
      20 June 2012 11: 42
      Quote: escobar
      And here are three prototypes and everyone has already broken. It may be enough to tickle the pride of schoolchildren. Finish the job and prove to the whole world.
      - where is it written that everyone has already been torn? Just a description of the technical characteristics that could potentially turn into advantages. Russia plays on its advantages - traditionally thanks to TsAGI gliders are very well produced, well-developed technologies for processing titanium and other composite materials.
      Well, weaknesses are also reflected in the same way - the dvigun is weaker, something Saturn has been working for years, but it won’t create anything. All the same 117. And when a new one appears - it is not clear. On-board intelligence - we were usually behind, on this plane - I don’t know. But all this is a secret, no one will say anything. And you minus. You know the circumstances that prevented us from acquiring the fifth generation earlier.
      1. VAF
        VAF
        +9
        20 June 2012 12: 25
        Quote: aksakal
        Russia plays on its advantages - traditionally thanks to TsAGI


        And here TsAGI and the airframe design ???? TsAGI has nothing to do with this, since it deals with completely different issues. and their recommendations for improvements, such as put two combs on the Su-24 and "narrow your ass". led to the fact that the plane lost 25% stability in the side channel and 15% range ... here's TsAGI for you and I can give you such examples ... a lot !!!

        Characteristics and TTZ for these characteristics are completely different things ....
        Now, when they are confirmed or not confirmed during the testing process, then it will be URAYA, but for now this is all ...... only the expectation of a bright future !!!
        1. +3
          20 June 2012 14: 42
          Quote: veteran.air force
          And here TsAGI and the airframe design ???? TsAGI has nothing to do with this, since it deals with completely different issues. and their recommendations for improvements, such as put two combs on the Su-24 and "narrow your ass". led to the fact that the plane lost 25% stability in the side channel and 15% range ... here's TsAGI for you and I can give you such examples ... a lot !!!

          - Well, they themselves gave examples of the fact that TsAGI is still related to the glider. In any case, their theoretical developments and purge results are precisely the basis for the development of the airframe. At your post - no relation. I am an amateur, but here I’m sorry, I can’t agree. And according to your examples, maybe there is their fault. But the fact that TsAGI insisted and strongly supported that type of airframe (what is it called - an unstable ANY plan?), Which formed the basis of the SU-27, resulting in a good plane, this alone eliminates all those the little things you listed. And then by these examples you can still dig, there a fair amount of subjectivity and just banal shifting from a sore head to a healthy smell. But we will not dig, who needs it. This is the past, the SU-24 is almost in history, I hope so.
          Well, I didn’t shout urya, I just wrote "Just a description of the technical characteristics that could potentially turn into advantages." Where is here urya, I do not find. I just know the behavior of corporations. If Sukhoi immediately encountered difficulties during development, he would sit quietly, use the right of secrecy of the work and would not cover these works in any way, would get off with "Sukhoi" (what a play on words)): "the work is going on as usual and that's it There is such a fuss only in one case (of course, given the adequacy of the Guidelines, Poghosyan has not yet been noticed inadequacy -)) - when there are indeed successes and they are really worth bragging about (if this word is applicable to corporations).
          Quote: veteran.air force
          expectation of a bright future !!!
          - I wait reasonably.
          1. VAF
            VAF
            +3
            20 June 2012 16: 01
            Quote: aksakal
            Well, they themselves gave examples of the fact that TsAGI is still related to the glider.


            No, dear aksakal, I didn’t mean it, but the fact that TsAGI blows out large-scale models and issues recommendations that, by the way, do not always lead to the results they are counting on!

            Well, if you yourself touched on the topic of the Su-27th, then the first who was against the integrated circuit line-up was TsAGI!

            Well, in short, without going deeply into aerodynamics, I will explain that Antonov had designed an integrated pairing of the wing with the fuselage, the side projection of which was a deformed wing profile.
            He placed the engines in separate compartments, the air intakes of which were under the developed root influx of the wing.
            Most of the aircraft’s cross-sectional areas were below the wing, which contributed to the occurrence of intense rarefaction above it and an increase in lift — this corresponded to the requirements of the so-called differential area rule. The layout of the fighter, which received the company code T-10, turned out to be unusually beautiful.
            However, in TsAGI, the project did not find support, and this institution at this stage played the first violin.
            They promoted their concept of PFI based on the MiG-25 layout.
            Under the pressure of the Ministry, Sukhoi Design Bureau worked out such an option, called T10-2.

            In 1971, as soon as the process of harmonizing the requirements for PFIs was completed, the Ministry officially announced a competition for the creation of a new fighter.
            OKB A.I. Mikoyan prepared the project MiG-29, A.S. Yakovleva - Yak-47, and the fighter P. O. Sukhoi, presented both in the original version of T10-1, and in version T10-2, was named Su-27.
            In mid-1972, the results of the competition were announced and the T10-1 project was announced the winner.

            And you say TsAGI ........


            Quote: aksakal
            - I wait reasonably.


            Well, here everything is extremely simple in accordance with the TTZ requirements and capabilities declared by Poghosyan and his entourage according to all the criteria of an airplane and weapons!

            In the photo: Experienced T10-1 aircraft in the assembly shop
            1. +6
              20 June 2012 18: 09
              Quote: veteran.air force
              In the photo: Experienced T10-1 aircraft in the assembly shop

              Let me insert five cents, maybe someone will be interested
              Su-27 MiG-29 Yak-45I Yak-47
              Engine type AL-31F R67-300 R53F-300 R59F-300
              Engine thrust kgf 2×10300 2×7500 2×8200 2×12500
              Wing area m² 48 37.6 40 65
              Normal takeoff weight kg 18000 13400 13900 22800
              Starting thrust-to-weight ratio 1.12 1.12 1.18 1.1
              Wing loading, kg/m² 375 357 348 350
              Maximum flight speed at high altitude km/h 2500 2500 2500 2500
              Maximum ground speed km/h 1500 1500 1500 1500
              Practical ceiling m 22500 21500 21500 20000
              Maximum rate of climb near the ground m/s 345 290 340 275
              Acceleration Time:
              from 600 to 1100 km/h from 12.5 15 14,5 16
              from 1100 to 1300 km/h from 6 6.5 6 7.7
              Practical range without PTB:
              near the ground km 800 820 1000 1000
              at high altitude km 2400 2000 2500 2500
              Estimated composition of weapons:
              medium-range missiles 2×K-25 2×K-25 2×K-25 2×K-25
              short-range missiles 6×K-60 4×K-60 2×K-60 2×K-60
      2. escobar
        -1
        20 June 2012 13: 44
        Quote: aksakal
        And you minus.

        Yes, at least 10 minuses. How many do not repeat halva .. halva - in the mouth will not be sweeter.
        1. -4
          20 June 2012 19: 15
          Quote: escobar
          How many do not repeat halva .. halva - in the mouth will not be sweeter.

          Hmm.
          Offtopic of course, but are you not familiar with the basics of auto-training / self-hypnosis?
          Now, old proverbs need to be handled very carefully, even if pronounced very highly!
          wink
    3. itr
      +6
      20 June 2012 11: 45
      I completely agree with you about the production car and the developed one I remembered a joke
      On ultrasound, the doctor informs the parents. You will have a boy
      Then after a few minutes CSO GO GO
      And then disappointed. And this is the leg !!!!!!!!

      1. VAF
        VAF
        +10
        20 June 2012 12: 42
        Quote: itr
        I completely agree with you about the production car and the developed


        Everyone wants for some reason, right away, and what would have happened ????

        Hurry know when you need ???? And even more pompous .... ???

        I would like to do the same, but there is a daredevil, but there is de facto, and de facto .... we are still very far from what we would like, unfortunately!

        1. itr
          0
          20 June 2012 12: 46
          don't dispute fast only cats are born
          But still I dare to object. What to compare these cars early
          And it is necessary to conduct at least 2 projects in parallel so that there is competition and, accordingly, the speed of delivery of the aircraft will be faster
          1. VAF
            VAF
            +8
            20 June 2012 13: 02
            Quote: itr
            But still I dare to object. What to compare these cars early


            so I don’t argue with you, but quite the opposite +!
            And I also say that it is too early not only to compare, but even to discuss this topic !!! +! drinks

            By the way, these photos ... do not make you think about anything ... ???? recourse

            But between them the difference is almost 30 years old !!!!



            1. itr
              -1
              20 June 2012 13: 11
              And here, in more detail, I'm not in the subject !!!
              1. White
                +6
                20 June 2012 13: 46
                In the bottom photo of the Northrop F-23 Black Widow II, it was a competitor to the f-22 in the ATF program. The plane was over-innovative in it everything was not like before, to some extent it ruined it and the generals were afraid that it would be long and painful to finish it (although it also happened with the raptor).
                By the way, not much is known about him, even the information about the test has not been fully declassified.

                Now there are many, including myself, that it was a masterpiece and the amers, to put it mildly, were mistaken in the choice.

                PAK-FA is similar to it when viewed from the front and side in terms of similarity no.
                1. VAF
                  VAF
                  +7
                  20 June 2012 15: 01
                  Quote: White
                  In the bottom photo of the Northrop F-23 Black Widow II, it was a f-22 competitor in the ATF program


                  Absolutely, +!

                  In the process of demonstration and evaluation tests, both prototypes of the Black Widow flew 1990 hours in 65 flights until the end of 50.
                  The maximum number M = 1,8 was reached at an altitude of 15 m and the cruising non-afterburning number M = 240, 1.
                  The aircraft showed excellent maneuverability, surpassing its competitor in stability and controllability at large angles of attack and supersonic.
                  After the Air Force abandoned the Black Widow, the program was completely phased out, despite the positive ratings of the aircraft by the world aviation press and some representatives of the Pentagon.
                  The choice of prototype fifth-generation fighter Lockheed and Boeing is due to several factors:
                  firstly, the conservatism of the thinking of the military, who always preferred a plane that has a more familiar look of all sorts of futurism;


                  secondly, Lockheed’s financial situation was not worse than Northron’s, by the time it began work on the Widow, it already had in its portfolio a very expensive contract to develop a strategic B-2 bomber.

                  thirdly, the Widow, as an aircraft with a much higher coefficient of novelty, in spite of its obvious prospects, demanded for its revision to a series of much greater financial costs.

                  Both test aircraft after giving up the program were transferred to NASA for load calibration studies.

                  Currently, both of them are in flight museums in an airworthy condition.
                  1. White
                    +2
                    20 June 2012 15: 26
                    The information that you instilled on F-23 is repeated in all sources the same. But for example, the data on the maximum speed is precisely classified and from where these numbers are not known although the designers of Northrop clearly stated that the Widow is faster than the Raptor.

                    All that is known about her is on the site www.yf-23.net but I have a bad English, so I can’t read it.
                  2. postman
                    +1
                    21 June 2012 00: 31
                    Quote: veteran.air force
                    firstly, the conservatism of the thinking of the military, who always preferred a plane that has a more familiar look of all sorts of futurism;

                    That is why they "launched" V-2 (quite "traditional" I must say)? and the F-117 is there.
                    YF-23 had no UVT, but 22 had

                    Quote: veteran.air force
                    secondly, the financial position of Lockheed was not an example worse than that of Northron

                    1. In general, prototypes were created by cooperatives:
                    YF-23 created Lockheed / Boeing / General Dynamics
                    YF-22 Northrop / McDonnell Douglas
                    2. Lockheed Martin was formed ONLY 1990, by the merger of Lockheed's aircraft division with Martin Marietta, Loral Defense and General Dynamics
                    3. Lockheed Martin in 1990 BOUGHT Betac Corporation ("sitting" on contracts of the US government, FEMA, army)
                    4. Annual Report LMCo for 1990 is no longer to be found, but since 1995
                    And so she LMCo firmly in Washington Technology Top 100: # 1 with contracts for $ 13.4 billion
                    If "not much worse", while it fell in sales from 1994 to 1995, then 96-98 did not grow significantly, from 97 to 2000 a drop
                    (serial F-22 since 1997)
                    5.Annual Report Northrop Corporation for 1990, again, can not be found. But according to Net Sales in 1998 LESS LM co 3 (!) Times), caught up and caught up ONLY in 2003

                    MAY BE ALL BUSINESS IN THAT:
                    1) 23- it turned out more expensive (flyaway cost)?
                    2) Less maneuverable than 22?
                    3) Not flight stability at some angles of attack?
                    4) And probably the most IMPORTANT uncle John McDonnell, despite the "warnings" from above, managed to lose 57000 jobs (Brand Name sale to buy shares?

                    Quote: veteran.air force
                    thirdly, the Widow, as a plane with a much higher coefficient

                    I don’t tease, I myself wonder, but what is his novelty?
                2. VAF
                  VAF
                  -2
                  20 June 2012 15: 26
                  Quote: White
                  PAK-FA is similar to it when viewed from the front and side in terms of similarity no.


                  So we continue, so to speak, clearly ..... Comparison of the T-50 and YF-23:









                  Never shove on your mustache that they hang on your ears ...
                  1. CC-20a
                    +4
                    20 June 2012 18: 12
                    in this way you can compare any plane. wink Do not distort, the T-50 is not like what you showed. Some similarities are due to the current physical parameters and tasks.
                    1. VAF
                      VAF
                      -1
                      20 June 2012 21: 49
                      Quote: CC-20a
                      Do not distort, T-50 is not like what you showed


                      And what is it you, dear, see the "twitching" ????
                      The fact that, conceptually, these two cars are very similar both externally and in design, only ours is better, because. made much later!

                      And the fact that you are proposing again to invent a wheel that the horseradish already knows how many centuries it has been spinning or stepping on the same rake as the amers?

                      Or is it considered shameful for you to use already made and verified developments ???

                      And with macar you can only drive calves, not compare, excuse me !!!

                      Here you have it, look, it may reach you that you are wrong .....

                      Nozzle YF-23


                      The experimental flat nozzle was made at NPO Motor and installed on the left engine AL-31F of the flying laboratory LL-UV (PS), created in 1990 on the basis of the Su-27UB aircraft No. 02-02 manufactured by KnAAPO.
                      The deputy chief designer (and later - the chief designer) of Sukhoi Design Bureau M. A. Pogosyan was appointed the head of work for this flying laboratory.
                      Refinement of the Su-27UB to the flying laboratory was carried out in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, after which the aircraft was transported to the LII aerodrome on the An-22 Antey plane.
                      20 flights were performed at LL-HC (PS), during which data were obtained on a significant (several-fold) decrease in the level of IR visibility of an engine with a flat nozzle.


                      Well, this is a fresh picture of the landfill of Sukhoi Design Bureau in Zhukovsky.
                      It contains the remains of 4 aircraft: Su-80, Su-25, LL-UV (PS) and T-8M.

                      I hope you read where the two YF-23 samples are located, and what about the FLIGHT condition ????
                  2. postman
                    +1
                    21 June 2012 01: 44
                    Quote: veteran.air force

                    And what are the E-50 and YF-23 similar / similar?
                    I KNOW DIFFERENCES (in the table)

                    And the "similarity?
              2. VAF
                VAF
                -1
                20 June 2012 13: 48
                Quote: itr
                And here, in more detail, I'm not in the subject


                Any search engine, you type Black Widow (Raptor's mom) and everything is detailed !!! +! drinks
                1. nagual
                  +9
                  20 June 2012 14: 59
                  Good afternoon. The widow, nevertheless, was not the mother of a raptor, but a parallel project in the competition, which the amers had hacked, afraid of him ... a too revolutionary layout solution. And PAK FA, also not from the Widow. We have all Dryings on an integrated circuit with spaced engine nacelles and bearing properties of the fuselage. It turns out again, our advantage.
                  1. White
                    +1
                    20 June 2012 15: 30
                    You will see the comments above where the photo of the Widow is given below. Isn't that an integrated circuit? ...
                    1. nagual
                      +1
                      20 June 2012 15: 33
                      Of course, integral. But where is the widow now? Talking about her as living is not worth it, as a dead man - either good or nothing :)
                  2. VAF
                    VAF
                    +2
                    20 June 2012 15: 30
                    Quote: nagual
                    Good afternoon. A widow, still not a raptor’s mom,


                    Hi, it just rhymed so mom, and so naturally there were two projects, just a lot of what was on the Widow and then implemented in the Raptor, but for everything else, look above, so to speak clearly ...!
                    Respectfully....
        2. +3
          20 June 2012 13: 12
          Thanks for the picture. pinned up. good
          1. VAF
            VAF
            +8
            20 June 2012 14: 02
            Quote: vorobey
            Thanks for the picture. pinned up.


            Winged, for you ... you know .... even the moon from heaven, +! drinks

            Well, if you poke fun, then hold on .... T-50-3 plane AWACS, 5th generation (it is clear that a friendly joke I hope for everyone) ????

            1. +10
              20 June 2012 15: 18
              You should not have done it. The Chinese are already working on the photo.
              1. VAF
                VAF
                +5
                20 June 2012 16: 30
                Quote: vorobey
                You should not have done it


                It may well be +! drinks . it’s only from a perspective that didn’t work out well. but if you had clicked earlier. then the landing angle of attack is large and the RSBN antenna would obscure!

                But the Chinas are sure ... they will scratch their turnips ... recourse
        3. +5
          20 June 2012 14: 04
          Quote: veteran.air force
          I would like that too,

          This is a photo of 2018. Not enough on the photo of a mechanic running add a couple of stars on board. We cannot help but make a better plane.
          And the Americans certainly stepped forward. One take-off of the F-22-950 meters. And they refused from the F-35 B, at least with normal takeoff they normally flew. Well, they will take off from aircraft carriers — F / A-18 The Hornet is probably a good plane, but not middle-aged.
          P.S. The road to Primorye was made to prevent Chinese tanks from passing, builders should be awarded for unscheduled surrender of a defense facility.
          1. VAF
            VAF
            +7
            20 June 2012 14: 15
            Quote: saturn.mmm
            We cannot help but make a better plane.


            Michael, I agree 100%, we simply must do better, but the point of this discussion is not what we will do. but in the fact that not yet done. and having a TTZ and having carried out some semi-natural prototype tests of equipment on the ground, there is a loud voice to declare universal and overwhelming superiority ... well, it’s not entirely correct !!!

            Amer has already arrived ...

            Therefore, everything should go quietly and without fanaticism.

            look at it yourself how the 2 already differs from the 3 .... it’s not just taken and changed, therefore, during the test flights on the second prototype it was revealed that .... well, we omit this ..... and such changes. until it comes to the pre-production sample there will still be a great many !!!

            1. nagual
              +4
              20 June 2012 15: 03
              This is a cooling air intake. On the first T-50 from the avionics complex there was almost nothing, and there was nothing to cool. Something already stands on a three-ruble note, they say, AFAR in a nose fairing. Looks like somehow the air was getting in badly, corrected :)
              1. VAF
                VAF
                +4
                20 June 2012 15: 35
                Quote: nagual
                This is a cooling air intake.


                you know, I’m a little aware of what it is for ... these air intakes ..... they are designed to take air into the SCR system, which subsequently redistributes the air flow both to cool one equipment and to heat another!
                1. nagual
                  +3
                  20 June 2012 15: 38
                  Yes, I, in general, also to the fact that much more will change.
                  Sincerely.
            2. +6
              20 June 2012 15: 15
              Quote: veteran.air force
              Therefore, everything should go quietly and without fanaticism.

              A significant influence on the formation of the concept of the fourth-generation American fighter was also exerted by the Moscow air parade of 1967 in Domodedovo. Instead of delicately hinting that the Soviet military aircraft industry, despite Khrushchev’s adventures, still exists and is capable of satisfying the needs of the USSR’s allies, the parade literally stunned foreign military observers. As a result of this unpleasant discovery, closed hearings were held in the US Congress on the topic: what can the U.S. Air Force oppose to potential enemy aircraft such as Su-15, Tu-22K, Tu-128, Su-17, MiG-23 and MiG-25. The United States was able, in case of urgent need, to mobilize its huge scientific and technological potential (author Vladimir Ilyin).
              As a result, the F-15 appeared, and in the Middle East the USSR lost a decent amount of aircraft and pilots. So I fully support you here.
              PS By the way, the author (Vladimir Ilyin) states that the United States, when creating the F-15, took the Mig-25 design for the concept.
              1. VAF
                VAF
                +5
                20 June 2012 15: 36
                Quote: saturn.mmm
                By the way, the author (Vladimir Ilyin) claims that the United States, when creating the F-15, took the Mig-25 design for the concept.


                Very similar to this, and all the facts speak of it, +! drinks
              2. White
                +4
                20 June 2012 16: 00
                By the way, the competition for the creation of the F-15 from a part can be compared with the competition for the F-22, then North American offered a fighter with an integrated circuit whose aerodynamics were much more perfect than the F-15 but they were rejected.
    4. DYMITRY
      +8
      20 June 2012 11: 46
      Quote: escobar
      The raptor has been mass-produced since 2001 and has been improving all the time.

      Please tell us about the combat use? Or for example, why do pilots refuse to fly them? To paraphrase you: These hat-takers ratorophiles already got it !!!!
      Normal review, about the advantages and disadvantages of a particular machine. Where is hat-making ???? Oh, how did they say that the T-50 surpasses the American wunderwafel in a number of characteristics !! Nightmare!!! The vile slap !!!
      Figures where gentlemen are raptorophiles?
      1. White
        +4
        20 June 2012 12: 23
        By the way, the SU-27 and its derivatives have never fought with anyone, but everyone will agree that he is the BEST.
        With the Raptor, the Americans made a mistake when they put stealth at the forefront, which negatively affected the other characteristics, as a result, it turned out not fish, not meat.

        Although my opinion is that if you chose Northrop F-23A, he would definitely have torn everyone, it was a masterpiece in every sense.
        1. VAF
          VAF
          +5
          20 June 2012 15: 37
          Quote: White
          By the way SU-27


          In Ethiopia, in the war with Eretria!
      2. VAF
        VAF
        +5
        20 June 2012 13: 22
        Quote: DYMITRY
        Please tell us about the combat use?


        I'll try ....





      3. VAF
        VAF
        +7
        20 June 2012 15: 04
        Quote: DYMITRY
        Normal review, about the advantages and disadvantages of a particular machine.


        The review is normal, but the comparison is not yet correct !!! +!


        Quote: DYMITRY
        Where is hat-making ????


        There is only humor, nothing personal, I hope you understand everything .... drinks

    5. +7
      20 June 2012 12: 06
      The issue is controversial about cap-making - the Russians analyze the mistakes of the Americans and correct them on models not yet built, thereby correcting childhood diseases in the bud. there are no 6th generation airplanes yet - Russian designers are great - and they will succeed.
      but about the F-22, what's the point that "whole squadrons" - look at the statistics of how many boards of these aircraft are on alert - out of 184 - somewhere no more than 50%, in addition, due to problems with the OBOGS system, it is forbidden to fly above 7,6, XNUMX km. Further, the coating turned out to be very sensitive to moisture - because of this, some of the aircraft had to be returned from the air base in Hawaii ... but you never know, children's sores ...
      1. VAF
        VAF
        +3
        20 June 2012 16: 33
        Quote: kotdavin4i
        of these aircraft are on alert


        If you only knew how many all types of airplanes are in combat readiness. then ... it’s better not to talk about sad things, though we have a completely different reason ... much worse than Raptor’s sores ...!
    6. VAF
      VAF
      +12
      20 June 2012 12: 08
      Quote: escobar
      We got these hat-takers pak-faki. The raptor has been mass-produced since 2001 and has been constantly improving


      You see how they do not like criticism here, +! drinks

      Only the 3rd prototype is about to take off, while the 1st one has completed its task, there is still a stage of factory tests and the elimination of all the deficiencies identified during the tests is underway. Defects and miscalculations, which is quite natural, but GON has already gone !!!! and URAYAYA, by the year 30 will definitely be the best !!!

      Yeshe only on the third they only installed the radar antenna, but something from the OLES, but that's all ... we tear like a hot-water bottle !!!

      1. Perch_xnumx
        +4
        20 June 2012 12: 41
        I have an opinion that smaller generations of airplanes can compete with F-22 in passive mode. And if you develop and install a radar with a qualitatively new radar and brand new rockets then then tries. this F-22 fell at all.
        1. VAF
          VAF
          +4
          20 June 2012 13: 57
          Quote: Perch_1
          And if you develop and install a radar with a qualitatively new radar and brand new rockets then then tries. this F-22 fell at all.


          It’s the same good idea ... just create it first. then arm, teach how to shoot, but because ... just talk about the rest ....

          I would also like the Raptor to look more like this ....



          But to discard it. As a combat unit, this is a big mistake!

          Well, the fact that Su and Mig family planes can compete with the Raptor, I don’t doubt how much, +! drinks
          1. +1
            20 June 2012 16: 06
            Sick some kind of sparrow. Where did you find this photo.
            1. VAF
              VAF
              +3
              20 June 2012 16: 35
              Quote: vorobey
              Sick some kind of sparrow. Where did you find this photo.


              Winged, because the Raptor is the same patient, or how to put it more correctly ... the untreated one flies !! +! drinks
          2. +3
            20 June 2012 18: 11
            Yes, one to one - he is a vulture vulture!
            By the way, about the similarity of projects, or who has it? A drop is an ideal form, all drops are terribly similar. Subtle nuances are becoming increasingly important. They can become catastrophic and completely reduce brilliant ideas. All the best - glider, engine, electronics. Collected, but not flying !!!
          3. 11Goor11
            0
            20 June 2012 20: 31
            veteran.air force
            I would also like the Raptor to look more like this ....

            Sergey, anything but just IT, the bar, although unpretentious in appearance, but works exclusively with the corpses of the enemy laughing
      2. escobar
        +5
        20 June 2012 13: 31
        Quote: veteran.air force
        You see how they do not like criticism here, +!

        Yes, I see, only you little brother plus, but they deny me. Maybe until they reached you, they understood something)))
        1. VAF
          VAF
          +5
          20 June 2012 13: 51
          Quote: escobar
          Yes, I see, only you little brother plus, and they deny me.


          This is not the point, just when you touch on specific topics, you should give evidence. who confirm your position, then the people who do not understand or doubt your thoughts and opinions can be convinced with their own hands or study the topic under discussion!
          Therefore, do not be discouraged and forward !!! +! drinks
          But reasoned !!! good
          1. +2
            20 June 2012 18: 12
            And the last will be the first! wink
        2. +4
          20 June 2012 13: 52
          Escobar will try to explain the difference. In which case, despite his criticism, Serega, despite the fact that the old fart is one of the first to try to get into the cockpit of a fighter and will not get out of sight of f22. will swear as usual. scold everyone but fly. In an extreme case, if they do not let them into the cabin, he will curse one fucking one and scolding everyone will teach the yellow-handed what to do. and what not.
          1. VAF
            VAF
            +9
            20 June 2012 14: 35
            Quote: vorobey
            Serega, despite the fact that the old fart is one of the first to try to get into the cockpit of a fighter and will not get out of sight f22


            Well, Sanya, ..... n ... n, and even old ....!

            Of course, it’s a sin to tight "ass to the top will already be problematic", and even after such a break, but what our pilots are famous for, that they can fly very well and quickly retrain.

            But the raptor excites me the least, because. for real combat use, this machine is still very far away and plus is capricious in operation.

            So far, the real opponents are .....









            1. +4
              20 June 2012 15: 00
              Serge, but how much charisma and experience in this one phrase.
              1. VAF
                VAF
                +4
                20 June 2012 15: 42
                Quote: vorobey
                Serge, but how much charisma and experience in this one phrase.


                Well, yes, I agree, +! drinks

                By the way, a good perspective to my comment on the influence of HRP on the maneuverability of the T-50, which is incomparably better than that of the Raptor



            2. 755962
              +2
              20 June 2012 15: 53
              Quote: veteran.air force
              So far, real opponents are here ..

              Serge, Salute! What do they smoke on the Hornet?
              1. +5
                20 June 2012 16: 09
                Quote: 755962
                On "Hornet" that smoke, already smoke "rocker"?


                That one, rather, the engine eats up oil. Rings need to be changed and there is no money in the budget. drinks
            3. +3
              20 June 2012 16: 51
              Quote: veteran.air force
              So far, the real opponents are .....

              In vain amers F-14 abandoned smile
          2. +2
            20 June 2012 19: 36
            Well said. A plus!
    7. Perch_xnumx
      +4
      20 June 2012 12: 32
      And where did they fight, tell me. Maybe they will take part in maneuvers with the Indians again. Or they are afraid, as usual, that they would not justify themselves .. inadvertently. But what could be an advertisement for breakthrough technologies. Until we learn about the real combat capabilities of the F-22, it makes no sense to talk about a super-duper super-expensive prodigy aircraft.
    8. Igorboss16
      0
      20 June 2012 13: 17
      the fact is that they are modernizing it but bringing to mind such important systems as providing oxygen to the pilot, for some reason it doesn’t work out well, and our machine already shows such results that the raptor never dreamed
  3. +7
    20 June 2012 10: 58
    Ф22 main aircraft ??? He does not participate in warriors, and he does not fly so hot. F35 just do not understand what.
  4. Tirpitz
    +4
    20 June 2012 11: 05
    the article is good, if everything that is written here really will be on the t-50, then this is a big step in the aircraft industry, and if it is supposed to be in 2050, then alas. And the main quantity is a minimum of 300 pcs.
    1. DYMITRY
      0
      20 June 2012 11: 48
      Honestly, I considered part of the information presented about PAK FA closed, and I was very surprised to see some indexes in a public article
  5. +6
    20 June 2012 11: 05
    The "moment of truth" for aircraft is combat.
    So far none of the above has fought.
    So let's wait. We'll see.

    And I still like ours more.
  6. Knowing
    +1
    20 June 2012 11: 09
    article minus (few comparisons) and f 22 - older than the pack. Cho compare them?
  7. radikdan79
    +5
    20 June 2012 11: 21
    Yes, until there are specific data on the flight characteristics of the PAK FA (T-50), there is no need to talk about any comparison. the fact that the Su-35 in battle is not inferior to the F-22 has long been known. what kind of beast T-50 is still unknown. let's wait ...
    1. raptorr
      -14
      20 June 2012 11: 59
      the fact that the Su-35 in battle is not inferior to the F-22 has long been known

      The speculation of pure water
      1. Ilyich
        +3
        20 June 2012 15: 37
        Quote: raptorr
        The speculation of pure water

        Of course, speculation. winked I personally heard about this on the Discovery Channel - the advertising channel of Yankisovsky power. The Su-35 there was called the king of the air and put in first place in some of its next ranking. Here are inventors, right? winked
    2. Sleg
      +3
      20 June 2012 12: 06
      What kind of beast? The fact that there is no radar on it? What is no maneuverability? That he wasn’t shown anywhere else, and that there were so many problems with him that he doesn’t fly above 5000 km, rusts in front of any sneeze, etc.
      about the Raptor the same guesses and booklet data as about the T50. No one else had ever seen him live.
  8. Scorpio 83
    +2
    20 June 2012 11: 23
    An interesting article is positive!)) It seems like a saying where we put it on for a long time and then drive fast)))) It’s better to slowly gain power than quickly a bunch of problems!
  9. +6
    20 June 2012 11: 34
    In comparison with many recent articles of a political orientation, I liked the article, technical descriptions, the author’s conclusions, right or wrong, and so it was put up for discussion.
    The idea with PAK FA is a step forward, to bring to the series in pieces of 300.
  10. Born in USSR
    +2
    20 June 2012 11: 42
    Great article, plus definitely!
  11. Simon bolivar
    +3
    20 June 2012 11: 48
    If the PAKFA is planned for about 400 pieces, then which fighter in Russia will be the main?
    1. Alexey Prikazchikov
      -4
      20 June 2012 12: 06
      I think more when new modifications appear.
    2. Yoshkin Kot
      +1
      20 June 2012 12: 11
      planes are becoming more expensive, and in all countries there is a quantitative decrease from generation to generation, in the 40s they were counted in the air fleets by tens of thousands, in the 80s, their number will soon be reduced to several hundred.
      ps infantry regiments also declined with the advent of automatic weapons
      1. Alexey Prikazchikov
        -2
        20 June 2012 12: 36
        I just know 400 cars for the Russian Federation is not at all the case.
  12. Alexey Prikazchikov
    -4
    20 June 2012 12: 05
    I wouldn’t want to do a cool thing with my cap, but compare it with f 22 kglpo, since this is a comparison of white and solid. Different things. F 22 underwent repeated modernization, it was improved and continues to do so. This machine would not be used with the Papuans to our liking, and if I had been on the spot, I would not have particularly favored him in order to arrange a surprise price later. F 22 is the property of the states as for some kind of natural resources, this is a trump card in politics. I do not even exclude that it will be re-produced. But Pak fa is cool to argue no one will, but so far there are only 3 on the approach 4th, and how many amers have f 22.
    1. Simon bolivar
      +2
      20 June 2012 12: 09
      There is not a single combat-ready PAX.
      1. Alexey Prikazchikov
        -6
        20 June 2012 12: 35
        Missiles are ready at least 15 samples are already there.
  13. Perch_xnumx
    +4
    20 June 2012 12: 27
    "In general, for domestic air defense detection systems and airborne radars of aircraft, a machine made" using stealth technology "does not present any difficulties with detection. Much more useful is the" complex reflective shape "of an actively maneuvering aircraft to disrupt the attack of a missile with radar homing. here too, domestic weapons have not been preparing for the first day for a meeting with the "invisible." So the "invisibility" of the guests will not be a great advantage, while Western developers, considering the stealth technology their prerogative, have until recently paid little attention to fighting it. "
    So no one bothers to direct interceptors from the target designation station, approach in passive mode and use the OLS system to intercept the F-22 with a smaller generation aircraft.
  14. +1
    20 June 2012 12: 31
    All right, let's tear the Yankees, let them just stick around ... It remains only to put it in the "series" and put it in the troops ...
  15. Roman 3671
    +4
    20 June 2012 12: 42
    The US Associated Press Agency has announced the start of a lawsuit in a lawsuit filed by engineer Darrol Olsen against Lokheed Martin, which, in his opinion, deliberately used defective radio-absorbing coating for fifth-generation F-22 Raptor fighters. Olsen submitted to the court evidence that several extra coating layers were applied to the F-22 aircraft to ensure that all necessary radar tests were passed. The main marriage, according to Olsen, is to erase the radar absorbing coating from the aircraft fuselage under the influence of fuel, oil or water. In total, Lockheed Martin applied 22 extra pounds (600 kg) of coating to the F-272 fuselage. Olsen also claims that poor-quality coating can lead to dangerous incidents, as happened in 2008, when part of the coating broke away from the plane and hit the engine. This incident resulted in more than a million damage to the military.

    Olsen filed a lawsuit against Lockheed in October 2007, and it was submitted to the court only in early November 2009. Olsen requires Lockheed Martin to return to the government $ 50 million for each of the 183 F-22s already collected or contracted and to pay its legal costs.

    This is not the first scandal surrounding the only fifth-generation fighter so far publicized worldwide. A month ago, the American newspaper The Air Force Times published information that the fifth-generation F-22 Raptor fighter jets arriving at the Andersen Air Force Base in the Pacific Ocean unexpectedly started to fail. Their electronics ceases to function in rainy weather. The investigation showed that moisture enters complex systems through cooling devices, resulting in malfunctioning of high-precision equipment. Since on the island of Guam, where the base is located, 2000 to 2800 millimeters of precipitation falls annually, the Raptors are practically inoperative here.



    Pentagon experts conducted a study of the problems of operation of the F-22. It turned out that the most advanced fighter of the American army requires more than 30 hours of maintenance after every hour of flight. In general, the cost of an hour of flight operation of a fifth-generation fighter is more than 44 thousand dollars. However, these fighters break down so often that from October 2008 to May 2009, according to the Pentagon, about 50 percent of the aircraft in service with the Air Force were not ready for use due to technical problems. The Raptor is so expensive and capricious that the Pentagon refused to use it in Iraq and Afghanistan. And recently he stopped buying F-22 altogether (although at first he ordered almost 190 of these machines from the manufacturer).

    More recently, the export of F-22, as the best in the world, according to the Pentagon, a fighter, was strictly prohibited by US law. But after a series of scandals, US lawmakers urgently raised the question of declassifying the Raptor, lifting the embargo, and urgently looking for buyers.

    The “Raptor,” according to Western media, has already been tempted by the Israeli Air Force. The high cost of manufacturing and operating this machine does not bother them. More important is the ability of a fighter to fly high and carry a record amount of weapons for its class. Another buyer could be Japan, citing the need to protect against DPRK missile threats.

    US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, during a visit to the Air Force College in Alabama in his speech to the military, called the F-22 "a silver bullet" that can only be useful in rare cases. similar capabilities to the less expensive fifth-generation F-22 fighter, Gates said, stressing that funding for the F-35 program in the military's forward-looking budget will be increased from $ 35 billion to $ 6,8 billion to accelerate project development and development. In the next five years, at least 11,2 of these machines should come off the assembly line.
  16. +6
    20 June 2012 12: 45
    Thank. article proves Russia confidently restores its potential in the aircraft industry. quieter you will go further as they say
    1. +2
      20 June 2012 18: 26
      Measure seven times, and then air superiority!
  17. Van
    +3
    20 June 2012 12: 58
    Article + good

    And as for the PAK-FA, I recall saying that it was being developed with the expectation of future modernization up to the 50s, so that over time its characteristics will only improve. (Hope so). Yes
  18. Roman 3671
    +1
    20 June 2012 13: 03
    F-22 Raptor - Just Not For War

    On May 6, CBS showed two American pilots in the 60 Minutes program, who explained to the presenter why they were afraid to fly the world's best F-22 Raptor fighter. The plot caused a stormy reaction in American society, but in our opinion belatedly. It is known that the Air Force bought 179 F-22 fighters at a price of more than $ 400 million apiece, but not one of these miracle planes took part in the hostilities in Iraq, Libya or Afghanistan. We bring to your attention an article on a topic that was published in April 2011.

    Why the United States suspended the F-22 from participation in the Libyan operation

    After the start of the Western coalition’s military operation in Libya, the United States suddenly began to explain why their “most advanced fighter,” the F-22 Raptor, wasn’t taking part in the hostilities, although no one seemed to demand such an explanation from the US military. Even more, the US Air Force suddenly considered it necessary to publicly explain why they would not modernize the F-22 communication systems, and also because of the identified problems, they cut the maximum flight altitude of the aircraft by more than half. Given that the fighter in its six years of service has never taken part in hostilities, this behavior of the US military makes us think about the real capabilities of the Raptor

    There would be an opportunity

    The military operation of the Western coalition in Libya began on 19 on March 2011. The Air Force and Navy of Great Britain, France, the USA, Italy and Canada took part in it, and the main combat missions were performed by F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon, Dassault Rafale and Panavia Tornado GR4 fighters. Shortly before the start of the operation, called the Odyssey. Breaking Dawn, some US and European analysts were looking forward to taking part in the American F-22 Raptor fighter, the only fifth-generation combat aircraft in the world.
    However, the expectations of experts did not materialize - the F-22 did not appear in the sky of Libya, and, according to a statement by the US Air Force, will not appear in the future. Despite the fact that other members of the Western coalition did not expect F-22 to participate in the military operation, the United States suddenly decided to justify itself, citing a lot of reasons why the famous "Raptors" were not aimed at ensuring a no-fly zone over Libyan territory.
    The first to speak on this issue on March 22, 2011 was Lexington Institute analyst Lauren Thompson. According to him, the most advanced American combat aircraft is simply not designed to perform military tasks, such as those that were implemented in Libya at the very beginning of the Odyssey. Recall that the main goal of the first stage of the military operation was to ensure a no-fly zone over the territory of the African state, for which it was necessary to disable all air defense systems that were under the control of troops loyal to Muammar Gaddafi. At the same time, the opposition of Libyan aviation was not taken into account (and indeed, since the beginning of the Odyssey, not a single Libyan aircraft has been seen in the air).
    Thompson noted that the F-22 is not physically designed to strike ground targets. The aircraft can be armed with two 450 kilogram JDAM adjustable bombs, which are capable, however, of hitting stationary, but not moving targets. In addition, as it turned out, the F-22 radar is not able to map the terrain, as radars with a synthesized aperture do, and therefore can not independently select ground targets. This actually means that if the F-22 in its present form is used to bombard any objects, information about the targets will be downloaded to the on-board computer of the aircraft before takeoff.
    But this did not end the list of shortcomings of the fifth-generation American fighter. It turned out that the fighter has very limited communication capabilities. The aircraft is able to exchange information only with other F-22s in the link. Raptor is equipped with a “stripped down” Link 16 communications system, widely used by the US and NATO military, but it works exclusively to receive operational information from other planes and helicopters and cannot be used for data transmission. When creating the F-22, engineers deliberately limited the fighter's communication capabilities to ensure its even greater stealth - it is assumed that in case of combat use the aircraft will always operate in radio silence mode.

    It would be possible to turn a blind eye to Thompson's conclusions - it happens that analysts say things that are subsequently either refuted by the military, or never go beyond speculation and guesswork, without finding actual confirmation. However, at the end of March 2011 on the issue of non-participation of the F-22 in the Libyan operation, the US Air Force commander Norton Schwartz decided to speak in person. According to him, the American fighter does not take part in the Libyan operation, because it is geographically located far from the war zone.

    “If the F-22 were deployed at one of the bases in Europe, they would undoubtedly take part in the Libyan operation,” Schwartz said. He added that "since the operation in Libya began relatively quickly, it was decided to use various resources located nearby." Currently, the American F-22, according to the US Air Force, is based in Virginia, New Mexico, California, Florida, Alaska and Hawaii. At the end of his speech, Schwartz said that “the fact of the F-22’s non-participation in this particular operation is not an indicator of its futility.”

    On the same day, speaking at a hearing of the subcommittee on appropriations of the US House of Representatives, Schwartz tried to explain why the Air Force decided in 2010 to abandon the modernization of the communication systems of the F-22 fighter, which was planned as part of the Increment 3.2 program. According to Schwartz, it was planned to install a MADL communication system on the F-22, which is currently being created for the promising F-35 Lightning II fighters. The new MADL system has not yet been tested for military use, which means that its use on the F-22, according to Schwartz, means extra expenses and a certain risk that the Air Force cannot take. In this case, the remaining parameters of the program Increment 3.2 will be implemented.
    Former U.S. Air Force intelligence chief David Deptula, who attended the House of Representatives hearing, harshly criticized the refusal to install MADL on F-22 fighters. According to him, it was pointless to create "the most advanced fighter in the world", so that later you would not be able to exchange data with other aircraft. “Here wisdom is on a penny, and stupidity on a pound,” - with these words, Deptula commented on the US Air Force’s decision to abandon the installation of MADL systems on F-22 fighters.

    It is curious, however, that in order to allow the F-22 to exchange information with other planes, helicopters and ground units, the US Air Force created a special airborne communications communications center. It included six special versions of unmanned aerial vehicles RQ-4 Global Hawk Block 20, with which fighters are able to exchange data. At the same time, drones are able to relay data from the F-22 to other aircraft and helicopters equipped with the Link 16. This link was created in case of large-scale military operations and has not yet been used in reality.

    That is, the US Air Force has actually confirmed that the ability to exchange data with the F-22 pilots is still needed. But why it was necessary to create a separate communications center for the Raptor and refuse to modernize its own communications systems for a fighter, it is not entirely clear. Probably, the bet is still being made on stealth - by exchanging information with the communication center, the F-22 gets wider access to operational information, without giving out its location.

    It is curious that the F-22 was adopted by the U.S. Air Force in 2005. Since then, he has not taken part in any military campaigns that the United States waged outside the country. On the one hand, an American fighter is too expensive to participate in hostilities in Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan or Somalia. But on the other hand, how else can you check all the capabilities of an airplane, which in fact has not yet proved its "power".
  19. Roman 3671
    +1
    20 June 2012 13: 27
    Technical troubles

    Another blow to the image of the fifth-generation American fighter was delivered at the end of March 2011, when it became clear that the US Air Force imposed a limit on the maximum altitude of the F-22. According to the decree of the Air Force Combat Command (ACC) of the United States Air Force, the maximum flight altitude of the F-22 should not exceed 7,6 thousand meters - despite the fact that, according to the declared technical characteristics, the “ceiling” of the Raptor is about 20 thousand meters. The reason for this decision was an investigation whose purpose is to check on-board oxygen generation systems (OBOGS) installed on many US Air Force fighters.

    According to ACC, military OBOGS used may be defective. In particular, it is assumed that the cause of the loss of F-22 17 on November 2010 in Alaska could be OBOGS problems. This system is responsible for the generation of oxygen and the flow of the breathing mixture into the pilot's mask at high altitudes. Due to OBOGS crash, the pilot of the crashed F-22, Jeffrey Haney, could experience oxygen starvation and pass out. By introducing a ban on conventional flights, the US Air Force clarified that it does not apply to combat missions of American fighters, which are still unlimited in their movements.

    The limitation in the ACC was explained by the fact that at a flight altitude of 15 thousand meters or more, the pilot has at his disposal only ten seconds before losing consciousness if the supply of oxygen to the mask stops. This time is not enough to lower the plane to a height where you can breathe without a mask with a breathing mixture. An altitude of 7,6 thousand meters was considered safe by the command, because in case of stopping the flow of oxygen, the pilot has the opportunity to drop to 5,4 thousand meters - a height at which you can already breathe without a mask.

    However, the authority of the F-22 was undermined much earlier. So, in February 2010, the US Air Force temporarily suspended flights of all "Raptor" - it turned out that the aircraft body is unstable to moisture and easily susceptible to corrosion. Corrosion on fighter jets was detected earlier, but in this case it turned out that the system for removing excess moisture from the aircraft lantern was structurally bad and could not cope with its task. As a result, rust appeared on some elements of the aircraft lantern and even inside the cockpit, and the corrosion that appeared could cause the ejection system to malfunction.

    In the 2009 year, the U.S. Air Force sent 12 F-22 fighters from Alaska to Andersen Base in Guam as an experiment. Rainy weather on the island turned out to be merciless to military vehicles, and it soon became clear that in conditions of high humidity electronic systems of aircraft are unstable, and the cooling system of computing components in a humid atmosphere simply refuses to serve. Whether this defect has been fixed is unknown. But it is known that since then the F-22 has never been used in humid climates.
    In the same year, former Lockheed Martin engineer Darrol Olsen accused the U.S. company of creating a defective F-22. According to Olsen, several extra coating layers were applied to the F-22 aircraft so that the fighter could pass all the necessary radar tests. The marriage is that the F-22 radar absorbing coating is easily erased from the fuselage under the influence of water, oil or fuel. At Lockheed Martin, Olsen was denied allegations that the aircraft were manufactured using persistent and high-quality radio-absorbing coating.

    Modernization

    Starting in 2012, the US Air Force will spend $ 22 million annually on the modernization of F-500 fighters. In particular, the program of modernization Increment 3.1 will begin, involving the installation of new avionics, avionics and software. Thanks to this program, the fighter will learn to map the terrain, select ground targets and use new SDB bombs. Implementation of the program of modernization Increment 3.2 will begin in 2014. According to unconfirmed reports, as a result of this program, the F-22 will receive updated software, some new structural elements and new computing systems.

    Two years earlier, an amusing malfunction was detected in the on-board computer of the F-22. In February 2007, the U.S. Air Force decided for the first time to withdraw the F-22 from the country, surpassing several fighters at the Kaden Air Force base in Okinawa. The link of the six F-22s departing from Hawaii, after crossing the 180th meridian - the international line for changing dates - completely lost navigation and partially - communications. Fighters returned to the Hawaiian Air Force base, visually following tanker aircraft. The cause of the problem was a software error that caused the computer to crash when the time changed.
    And these are only the problems that the Air Force or the US Department of Defense officially announced. However, it is possible that there are hidden aircraft flaws. For example, a problem with the B-2 bombers, which cracked a metal panel in the rear of the aircraft between the engines, became known only after engineers at Northrop Grumman found a way to fix it.

    The problems of complex military equipment are not at all extraordinary, since some features of the operation cannot be taken into account in advance. These "childhood diseases" are subsequently eliminated during use and are taken into account in newer designs. But the story of the F-22 remains a lot of inexplicable. Indeed, it is not clear why the United States, in the case of the Libyan operation, suddenly began to make excuses for the absence of a fighter in the coalition’s air formation, although such attempts were not made in the case of Iraq or Afghanistan.

    True, history teaches that the most modern and expensive weapons are used in conflicts, even very large ones, in the last turn. The most striking example of this is the British Dreadnought class battleships and the German Nassau. These ships stood in ports of registry for almost the entire First World War and were used in hostilities only in the last years of the war. On March 31, 2011, the U.S. General Audit Office announced that the purchase price of one F-22 for the US Air Force is $ 411,7 million. In total, the US military should receive 187 F-22s, 170 of which are already in service.
  20. 0
    20 June 2012 13: 29
  21. escobar
    +7
    20 June 2012 13: 38
    I would only be happy for Russia if all plans for the T50 are completed on time and at a high quality and technical level. Because if this thing drags on, the packs will fight with high-altitude high-speed drones. And I'm not ready to say who will get the upper hand.
    1. nagual
      +1
      20 June 2012 16: 05
      It seems to me, first you need to wait for shock drones, not anti-partisan, but capable of operating in conditions of strong air defense. But drones of air combat will not reach soon.
    2. +1
      20 June 2012 16: 14
      Quote: escobar
      then the packs will fight with high-altitude high-speed drones

      I think that even the Americans are still very far from this unless of course the aircraft will be controlled not remotely, and remote control is vulnerable.
  22. iwanniegrozny
    +4
    20 June 2012 15: 13
    And I liked the article. I did not notice any "caps", basically it was written in the same tone as some Western studies (for example, http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2010-01.html, http://www.ausairpower.net /APA-NOTAM-230210-1.html and optionally http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-SuperBug-vs-Flanker.html)
  23. +1
    20 June 2012 15: 22
    If the amers had a perestroika, they are not like the fifth generation, the whole country would have disappeared. And ours at any position survive!
    1. escobar
      +1
      20 June 2012 15: 25
      Quote: Forget
      If the amers had a perestroika, they are not like the fifth generation, the whole country would have disappeared. And ours at any position survive!

      They are now restructuring, they are rebuilding the whole world for themselves.
      1. +2
        20 June 2012 15: 38
        True, they do not quite succeed.

        The Japanese parliament approved state guarantees for insuring cargo of crude oil from Iran on Wednesday, which paves the way for becoming the first large Asian (Iranian) buyer of oil and for circumventing new European Union sanctions. This allows the Japanese government to circumvent US financial sanctions
        http://warfiles.ru/8926-yaponiya-prinyala-zakon-chtoby-obespechit-import-nefti-i

        z-irana.html

  24. Nechai
    +4
    20 June 2012 15: 49
    Quote: kotdavin4i
    Further, the coating turned out to be very sensitive to moisture - because of this, part of the planes had to be returned from the air base in Hawaii.

    Not only moisture. Now, if they dare to send to Afghanistan, then they WILL ALREADY MUCH MORE INTERESTING about their F-22.
    Our engineers and design cadres "drove" there in the early 80s ....
  25. pribolt
    +6
    20 June 2012 15: 50
    I read the article, read a lot of comments, perhaps even more than the article itself. I’ll just say I'm glad that Russia is working on new weapons.
  26. +2
    20 June 2012 16: 48
    Our plane has not yet been brought to mind, it is too early to compare, and I think there will be nothing to compare with, or with promising Chinese or Japanese aircraft.
    1. +2
      20 June 2012 17: 12
      The Japanese have only a wooden layout, and the Chinese generally don’t know which engines it flies on, it will most likely be like with their regional plane (a sea of ​​noise and zero effect)
  27. vampik88
    +2
    20 June 2012 18: 19
    the plane is good, but now you need to start preparing those who will manage this miracle !!! without a professional pilot - it's just a pile of technological metal !!!!!!!!!!!!
  28. ra1647
    -2
    20 June 2012 21: 13
    What to compare F-22 with T-50. F-22 It is in service and the T-50 is not (it is very similar to a raptor, this is so for the word because only the Chinese copy it). That's how he gets into arsenal flies about 5 years here and you can wake up to compare
    1. 0
      21 June 2012 19: 09
      Quote: an-sar
      he looks a lot like a raptor

      It was said: They erased the airplane !!!
      In general, all aircraft / helicopter designs in Russia have been stolen from the most advanced power in the world !!!
      bully
  29. 0
    20 June 2012 21: 25
    The article is very interesting, many thanks to the author !!! And what is better or worse, the debate will always be different opinions and views, only real contact will put all the points !!!
  30. Town Guard
    0
    21 June 2012 00: 56
    http://vpk-news.ru/news/416/
    http://www.spaceportsingapore.com/orushienews/546-VVS_SSHA_priostanovili_vyplaty
    _za_rakety_AMRAAM.htm
    According to these links, there will be no new NGM rocket
  31. EMILPOLAK
    +1
    21 June 2012 20: 15
    all this is talk. there is not a single sample in the air force. and the raptor has been flying for 5 years. Of course the raptor has problems, flaws. but this is the first and only car of the 5th generation
    1. 0
      23 June 2012 07: 23
      The only and unrepeatable, no one will step on the rake.
  32. 0
    21 June 2012 20: 53
    Quote: EMILPOLAK
    but this is the first and only car of the 5th generation

    And what is someone arguing?
  33. Scorpio 83
    +1
    21 June 2012 21: 33
    raptor was flying, because it’s not a pterodactyl !!!
  34. Fear
    0
    22 June 2012 07: 30
    ... the use, for example, of Brimstone helicopter anti-tank missiles (in the English version) from a supersonic vehicle, is only possible in sterile training conditions.

    What for? request Don't the Americans think at all?
  35. 0
    29 December 2016 16: 16
    Quote: Cynic
    Quote: raptorr
    Even if PAK FA is better than Raptor

    Why are we silent about:
    After all, PAK FA is stolen from the beloved uncle Sam Hychnik! After all, they are so similar!
    And the dissimilarity is because we could not fully reproduce the ingenious thought of its designers!

    You first read about methods of reducing visibility, aerodynamics. Then you will understand why the shapes of these aircraft are similar. You’ll lose idiotic statements. Most of the scribes some experts gathered here. Only a head to think before writing did not learn. Su-27 and Su-35, MiG-29 and MiG-35 are also very similar. But very, very different cars. Avionics and aerodynamic perfection, the power plant decide a lot of things, but the key figure is the pilot. Aircraft of generation 4, 4+, I'm not talking about 4 ++ are able to freely fight with the 5th generation and not with one unit, they are also able to come out victorious. The advantages are of course over 5, but this does not mean that there is a huge gap between them, the advantage is very small. Since avionics is very developed not the first year and does not stand still, like airplanes that constantly bring to the ideal. Not a single country has forgotten about 4th generation airplanes, and is constantly modernizing them so as not to concede to the next stage of development, but with much lower financial costs. Put you in a raptor, and a pilot who knows a lot about An-2, flies over you, drops a 2-pound weight and the battle is over ... Because the weight is stronger than your head, you won’t even close the flashlight because you don’t know how. I'm not talking about the launch of SU. What is the rise there ... No offense. In the battle of the Su-27 and F-22, the advantage is behind the second, but the pilot will put an end ... Far from the fact that the 22nd. And this is the Su-27, and there is the Su-35 which will greatly facilitate the life of the pilot, in the literal sense of the word. There is already luck to need the F-22, although luck alone is not enough ... Yes, and there will be no sense in it from him. Of course, the pilot is a key figure, but ... F-22 is only a glider at the 35th level, the rest of the time is implacable)))))