"Standard" battleships of the USA, Germany and England. We consider armor penetration

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In this article we will try to deal with the armor penetration capability of the battleships of the Bayern, Rivend, and Pennsylvania types, as well as the comparative quality of the German, American, and English armor. It is extremely difficult to do this, because the data on American 356-mm, German 380-mm and British 381-mm guns are very fragmentary and incomplete, and sometimes contradict each other, but we still try.

What is the problem, actually? Let's see how most naval lovers (and not only) stories compare the armor penetration of certain guns. For example: one edition devoted, for example, to English dreadnoughts, contains information that the British 381-mm projectile of the World War I era punched 381-mm armor plate at a distance of about 70 cables. In another edition, already devoted to the German "capital" ships - that the German 380-mm shell similar to it "mastered" 350 mm armor only with 67,5 cables. From this, it would seem, that the English gun is more powerful - this is the conclusion that is made.



However, in fact, comparing such data in this way, it is very easy to be misled.

Was the above data obtained as a result of actual firing, or were they calculated according to armor penetration techniques? If these are the results of actual firing, were their conditions identical for both guns? If the armor penetration is calculated, then were the same techniques used? Are the data obtained the result of the work of specialists from the relevant ministries and departments, or is it the result of the calculations of historians who took the calculator? It is clear that in the second case the accuracy will be much lower ... There is no need to go far for examples: let's take S. Vinogradov's famous monograph, “Superdreadnoughts of the second Reich“ Bayern ”and“ Baden ””. In Annex No. XXUMX, the distinguished historian together with V.L. Kofman makes a large amount of calculations in order to compare the capabilities of the battleships “Reventzh” and “Bayern”. But alas, just look at the parameter table of 2-inch guns (p. 15) and we will see that according to the calculations of respected authors, the English 124-mm gun at 381 elevation angle has a range of 20,25 cables, that is, about 105 thousand. m. While foreign sources for the same initial speed (19,5 m / s) and a slightly smaller elevation angle (732 degrees) give significantly longer distances - 20-21,3 thousand meters. Of course, such deviations from real values negatively affect the results of calculations.

But even if the sources present the results of calculations by specialists, of whom there is no doubt about the accuracy, another factor arises that complicates the comparison: it’s about armor quality. It is clear that the same British, conducting calculations of armor penetration in the design of a dreadnought, used the corresponding indicators of English armor, the Germans - respectively, the German, etc. And the armor of different countries can vary in durability, but this is still half the problem: after all, in the individual country, the same Krupp armor has been constantly improved. Thus, it turns out that calculations of artillery systems, made, for example, in England, and seemingly using the same Krupp armor, but made at different times, may turn out to be incomparable. And if we add to this the almost complete absence of serious work on the evolution of armor in various countries of the world ...

In general, a more or less reliable comparison of armor penetration - the task is not so simple as it may seem at first glance. And, in an amicable manner, to a non-professional (who, no doubt, the author of this article is), it is better not to undertake this business. But, alas - to our deep regret, the pros are not in a hurry to tackle these issues, so ... as they say, in the absence of stamped paper, we write in simple.

Of course, it is no longer possible to conduct full-scale tests of the above-mentioned artillery systems today, so our destiny is calculations. And if so, then it is necessary to say at least a couple of words about the armor penetration formulas. Modern methods of calculation, if published, only in closed editions, and the popular literature usually gives the formula of Jacob de Marr. Interestingly, the professor of the Naval Academy L.G. Goncharov, in his textbook on the artillery case of 1932 release, called it the formula Jacob de Marr. This formula, along with many others, was very popular at the beginning of the last century, and I must say, it is quite accurate - perhaps it is even the most accurate among similar formulas of those years.

Its peculiarity lies in the fact that it is not physical, that is, it is not a mathematical description of physical processes. Formula de Marra empirical, it reflects the results of experimental shelling of iron and iron-steel armor. Despite this “unscientific,” the de Marr formula showed a better approximation to the actual results of firing and Krupp armor than other common formulas, and therefore we will use it for calculations.

Those interested will find this formula in the appendix to this article, but there is no need to force everyone reading this material to understand it - this is not necessary for understanding the conclusions of the article. We only note that the calculation uses very simple and familiar concepts to all those interested in the history of military fleets. This is the mass and caliber of the projectile, the thickness of the armor, the angle at which the projectile hits the armor, and the speed of the projectile at the moment it hits the armor sheet. However, de Marr, of course, could not be limited to the above parameters. After all, armor penetration of a projectile depends not only on its caliber and mass, but also to a certain extent on its shape and quality of the steel from which it is made. And the thickness of the armor plate, which the projectile is able to overcome, depends, of course, not only on the performance of the projectile, but also on the quality of the armor. Therefore, de Marr introduced a special coefficient into the formula, which, strictly speaking, is intended to take into account the indicated qualities of armor and projectile. This ratio increases with increasing quality of armor and decreases with the deterioration of the shape and quality of the projectile.

As a matter of fact, the main difficulty in comparing the artillery systems of different countries is “rests” on this very coefficient, which we will call simply (K) in the future. We will need to find it for each of the above instruments - if we, of course, want to get some correct result.

So, let's take at first fairly common data on the armor penetration of the German 380-mm / 45 Bayern cannon, according to which the gun at 12 500 m distance (the same 67,5 cable) could penetrate 350 mm of armor. We use a ballistic calculator to find the parameters of the 750-kg projectile, with an initial speed of 800 m / s at the moment of hitting the armor: it turns out that such a projectile will fall at a strictly vertical armor plate at an angle of 10,39 degrees, with a speed of 505,8 m / s. A small caveat - hereinafter, when we talk about the angle of the projectile, it means the so-called "angle from the normal". “Normal” is when the projectile hits the boneplit strictly perpendicular to its surface, that is, at an angle of 90 degrees. Accordingly, the projectile hit at an angle 10 hail. from normal, means that it hit the slab at an angle of 80 degrees. to its surface, deviating from the "reference" 90 hail. on 10 degrees

But back to the armor penetration of the German guns. The coefficient (K) in this case will be approximately (rounded to the whole) equal to 2 083 - this value should be considered quite normal for armor of the First World War era. But one problem arises: the fact is that the source of the armor penetration data is the book "German Capital Ships of World War Two", where the 380-mm / 45 Bayern cannon was compared to the main caliber of the battleship Bismarck. And could it not have happened that the Krupp armor, created in the interval between the two world wars, was taken into account, which was much stronger than the one that was installed on the "Bayena", "Rivendzha" and "Pennsylvania"? Moreover, the navweaps e-encyclopedia reports that there is evidence that German 20-mm projectiles were able to pierce 000 mm armor plate during the 380 m distance, and this is exactly the armor of the First World War era.

Well, we count: on 20 km, the angle of incidence will be 23,9 degrees, the velocity of the projectile on the armor is 410,9 m / s, and the coefficient (K) is some unfortunate 1 618, which does not fit the values ​​of the PMW era armor. A similar result generally brings the Krupp armor of German manufacture to armor to homogeneous ... Obviously, the navweaps data contain some kind of error.

Then we will try to use another source of information. Until now we have used the calculated data, and now we will try to compare them with the results of actual tests of the German 380-mm / 45 guns: these are given by S. Vinogradov in the above-mentioned monograph on the German battleships.

It describes the effects of 3 shots with armor-piercing projectiles, 200, 290 and 450 mm thick armor plates, the latter being most interesting for us: 734 kg projectile hit the armor plate at 0 angle (that is, under 90 degrees to the surface) and at 551 speed m / s struck 450 mm plate through. This result corresponds to the coefficient (K) 1 913, but, in fact, it will be slightly lower, because the Germans found their projectile in the 2 530 m behind the obstacle it had broken through, and in general. Alas, without having any data on how much of this distance the projectile flew through the air, how much “drove” on the ground, it is absolutely impossible to determine the energy it saved after armor penetration.

Take now the English 381-mm / 42 artillery system. Alas, the data on its armor penetration are rather vague: for example, V.L. Kofman has a mention of the fact that these British guns pierced armor, as thick as their own caliber, at a distance of about 70 cables. But what projectile and what is the initial speed? Taking into account the fact that the mention is contained in the monograph dedicated to the linear cruiser “Hood”, and refers to the period of creation of this ship, it can be assumed that this is a 871 kg projectile. However, another question arises: officially the initial speed of such a projectile was 752 m / s, but some calculations by the British were made at a lower speed 732 m / s. So what value should we take? However, whichever of the indicated speeds we take, the coefficient (K) will fluctuate within 1 983 - 2 048, and this is higher than those we calculated for the value (K) for the German gun. We can assume that this indicates the superiority of the quality of the English armor in comparison with the German one ... or is it that the geometrical form of the German projectile was better suited for penetration of armor? Or maybe the whole point is that the data of V.L. Kofman are calculated values, but in practice would British shells achieve a better result?

Well, we have at our disposal data on the results of the shooting of the battleship Baden.


Photos of "Baden" under fire


So, one of the English shells, hitting an angle 18 hail. at a speed of 472 m / s., "350 overpowered" mm frontal armor of the German main caliber 381. These data are all the more valuable because in this case the German armor was subjected to shelling not English, that is, tests of 42-mm / 380 and 45-mm / XNUMX guns are, therefore, in a single coordinate system.

Alas, they do not help us too much. If we assume that the English projectile struck the German tower, as they say, “with all its might”, and if there were 351 mm armor - it would not have coped, then in this case it will be equal to 2 021. It is interesting, by the way, that S. Vinogradov states that the British projectile, piercing the frontal armor of the German tower with the 350 mm, was not found later, but in fact the report indicated something else - it exploded, and there is a description of where the fragments scattered .

Of course, we have no absolute grounds for the assumption that this breakthrough was the limit for the 381-mm projectile, or at least close to that. But still, according to some indirect signs, it can be assumed that this is exactly what happened. Another “hints” hints at this: the British 871 kg projectile that hit the 350 mm barbet at an angle of 11 degrees, although it was able to make a hole in the armor with a diameter of 40 cm, but didn’t explode inside the barbet during the overcoming of the armor. In this case, the hit occurred almost at the very center of the barbet, that is, if the curvature of the armor plate had any influence, then the very minimum.

From the foregoing, one can try to draw some conclusions, but, due to the precariousness of the evidence base, they, of course, will be of a very conjectural nature.

Conclusion 1: Germanic armor from the First World War approximately corresponded to English resistance. This conclusion is valid if the statement of V.L. Kofman that the English 381-mm / 42 gun was able to pierce armor, equal to its caliber on 70 kbt, and if we were not mistaken in the assumption that the penetration of the German tower 350 mm frontal plate and 18 speed m / s . is the limit or very close to the armor penetration limit of the British 472-mm projectile.

Conclusion 2 th. Apparently, the form and quality of the German 380-mm projectile provided him with better armor penetration than the English had. Based on the above data, we can assume that the coefficient (K) for the British 381-mm projectile when firing at the German armor was about 2 000, while for the German 380-mm projectile - about 1 900. If our first conclusion that the armor resistance of the English and German armor is approximately equivalent, is correct, then it is obvious that the only reason for the lower coefficient (K) can be the projectile itself.

Why could a German shell be better? Its caliber is slightly smaller, by one millimeter, but, of course, it could hardly have had any significant effect. The calculation shows that with the same mass (750 kg) a change in caliber by 1 millimeter will lead to an increase in armor penetration by 1,03 millimeter. Another German shell is shorter - its length was 3,5 caliber, while the length of the British "Greenboy" - 4 caliber. There may have been other differences. Of course, the quality of the steel from which the shell is made plays a significant role here.

We now calculate the armor penetration of the German and British guns for the 75 cable course - the generally recognized distance for a decisive battle, in which one could expect a sufficient number of hits to destroy the enemy battleship.

At the specified 871 kg distance, the British 381-mm / 42 cannon projectile, launched at an initial speed of 752 m / s, fell into a vertically positioned armor plate at an angle of 13,05 hail, and its speed “on the plate” was 479,6 m / s. When (K) is equal to 2 000, according to the formula of Jacob de Marr, the armor penetration of the British projectile was 376,2 mm.

As for the German projectile, everything is a little more complicated. If our conclusion that it exceeded English in terms of armor penetration is correct, then the capabilities of the German 380-mm / 45 tools on the 75 cable closely approached the English fifteen-inch. At this distance, the German 750 kg projectile hit the target at an angle of 12,42 hail at a speed of 482,2 m / sec., And with (K) equal to 1 900, armor penetration was 368,9 mm. But if the author of this article is still wrong, and for the German gun it is worth using the same coefficient as for the English gun, then the capabilities of the 380-mm projectile fall to 342,9 mm.

However, according to the author, the armor penetration of a German projectile is closest to 368,9 mm (after all, practical shooting yielded an 1 913 coefficient while the projectile flew off to 2,5 km), but the armor penetration of the English projectile may be slightly lower than calculated. In general, we can assume that at a distance of 75 cables the British and German artillery systems are quite comparable in armor penetration.

But with the American 356-mm / 45 tool everything turned out much more interesting. Previously cited data for 680 kg projectiles should be considered canonical in Russian literature.



As a matter of fact, the values ​​indicated in it, seemingly, lead to quite obvious conclusions: even if 680-kg shells, which appeared in the USA after 1923, by armor penetration are inferior to their 380-381-mm European "colleagues", then Talk about the earlier 635 kg shells, which were equipped with 356-mm artillery of American dreadnoughts! They are lighter, which means they lose speed faster in flight, while their initial speed did not exceed the heavier projectiles, and the 1923 ammunition should have an advantage in form and quality. It is clear, as day, that American “Pennsylvania” at the time of entry into service were inferior in terms of armor penetration to English and German dreadnoughts. Well, obviously, is it true?

It is this conclusion that the author made, considering the possibilities of the American fourteen-inch installation in the article “Standard” battleships of the USA, Germany and England. American "Pennsylvania". And then he picked up a calculator ...

The fact is that the calculation according to the de Marr formula showed that American 356-mm / 45 guns had armor penetration indicated in the table with a coefficient (K) equal to 2 317! In other words, the American 680 kg shells in the table showed, when they were applied to armor, which was not created during the First World War, but to much later and stronger samples of it.

It is difficult to say how much the strength of armor protection has increased in the interval between the first and second world wars. In Russian-language sources, there are only brief and often conflicting references on this basis, based on which it can be assumed that the strength of Krupp armor has grown by about 20-25%. Thus, for large-caliber shells of the First World Epoch, the growth coefficient (K) will be from 1 900 - 2 000 to 2 280 - 2 500, but here it must be remembered that with increasing quality of armor protection, of course, the quality of shells also increased, and therefore for heavy the ammunition of the Second World War (K) may be less. Therefore (X) in the amount of 2 317 for post-war projectiles, naturally improved with the experience gained earlier, looks quite organic, but for armor of the Second World War era, not the first.

But by setting the coefficient (K) for American 680-kg shells at 2 000, that is, bringing the quality of armor to the era of the First World War, we get armor penetration at 75 mm, that is, higher than that of the British and German fifteen-inch guns!



Recalculation in 635 kg shell gives a very minor amendment - the ballistic calculator showed that at the 75 cable distance, having the angle of incidence 10,82 hail. and the speed "on the armor" 533,2 m with (K) equal to 2 000, the American projectile pierces the armor of the era of the First World War, the thickness of 380 mm, that is significantly more than its own caliber!

On the other hand, it is quite possible that such a calculation is still not completely correct. The fact is that according to some data, the coefficient (K) for the same armor decreases with increasing caliber of the projectile. For example, in our calculations, the maximum value (K) for the German 380-mm / 45 artillery system, obtained by calculation and published in sources, is 2 083. At the same time, calculations for the German 305-mm / 50 guns, which were installed on the Kaiserlmarine ships starting from the Helgolands, armor penetration data give (K) at the level of 2 145. Accordingly, it is possible that the US 356-mm / 45 guns (K) = 2 000, taken by us to calculate the armor penetration rate, is still too small.

In addition, unfortunately, the author does not have any “leads” in order to compare the armor resistance of the American Krupp armor with its European counterparts. Nothing remains but to consider it equivalent to German and English armor, although this, of course, may not be so.

Let's summarize all these rather muddled data. Taking into account the errors used in the calculations of the “methods”, it is highly likely that armor penetration of the vertical armor in the guns of the main caliber of the battleships “Rivend”, “Bayern” and “Pennsylvania” on the 75 cable course was approximately the same, and was approximately 365-380 mm.

Despite a bunch of assumptions, the data at our disposal still allow us to draw some conclusions regarding the vertical body armor. But with the penetration of horizontal barriers, such as armored decks, everything is much more complicated. The fact is that Jacob de Marr, unfortunately, did not bother to create a formula for determining the durability of horizontal protection. Its basic formula, adapted to modern types of armor, is suitable only for calculations of cemented armor, with a thickness in excess of 75 mm. This formula is given in Appendix No. 1 to this article, and all previous calculations in the article are made on it.

But the decks of ships of those years were protected not by cemented (heterogeneous) but by homogeneous armor, which lacked a surface layer of hardened. For such armor (but - installed vertically!), A different formula is used, intended for evaluating non-cemented armor plates with a thickness of less than 75 mm, it is given in Appendix No. 2.

I would like to note that both of these formulas are taken from a more than serious source: “Course of naval tactics. Artillery and Armor »1932, the author - Professor of the Naval Academy of the Red Army LG Goncharov, one of the leading experts of the pre-war USSR in the field of naval artillery.

And alas, none of them are suitable for assessing the durability of horizontal protection. If we use the formula for cemented armor, then at a distance in 75 cable we get scanty armor penetration: 46,6 mm for 381-mm / 42 British, 39,5 mm for German 380-mm / 45, and 33,8 mm for 356-mm / 45 American. If we use the second formula for non-cemented armor, we get that when hit at an angle characteristic of the cable 75, all three artillery systems easily pierce the 74 mm armor player, saving a huge amount of kinetic energy after that - for example, the English 381- mm projectile for penetration of armor of such thickness at a distance 75 cable will have enough speed 264,5 m / s, while its speed will be 482,2 m / s. If you ignore the restriction on the thickness of the armor sheet, it turns out that the British 381-mm projectile, according to the formula given, is able to penetrate deck armor with a thickness over 180 mm! Which, of course, is completely impossible.

If we try to refer to the test results of the Bayern type battleship, we see that the 871 kg armor-piercing British shells hit the horizontal armor of the towers that had a thickness of 100 mm at an angle of 11 degrees, which corresponds to the 67,5 distance of cables for a projectile with an initial speed of 752 m / s and cable 65 - for a projectile with an initial speed of 732 m / s. Both times the armor was not pierced. But in one case, the projectile, having ricocheted, made a recess 70 cm deep in the armor, that is, the slab was very arched. And in the second, although the projectile, again, ricocheted, the armor was not only concave by 10 cm, but also torn.



This kind of damage suggests that, although the German 100 mm armor provided protection at the specified distances, it is very close to that, if not at the limit of the possible. But the calculation using the formula for cemented armor gives armor penetration of the entire 46,6 mm at a greater distance, where the angle of incidence will be higher, and, accordingly, it would be easier for the projectile to penetrate the deck armor. That is, according to the formula, it turns out that the 100 mm deck was supposed to be joking and to reflect English projectiles with a large margin of strength - but practice does not confirm this. At the same time, according to calculations using the formula for non-cemented armor, it turns out that the roofs of the main gauge of Baden should have been easily pierced, and with a large supply of projectile energy, which, again, is not at all confirmed by practice.

It must be said that such inaccuracies of calculations have a completely logical explanation. As we said earlier, the de Marr formulas are not a mathematical description of physical processes, but are merely a fixation of the laws obtained during the testing of armor. But the vertical body armor was tested, not horizontal at all, and it is not surprising that the patterns in this case simply stop working: for horizontally placed armor, in which the shells fall at a very small angle to their surface, these patterns are naturally completely different.

The author of this article came across "on the Internet" opinions that the de Marr formulas work effectively at angles of deviation from the normal no more than 60 degrees, that is, from 30 degrees to the plate surface and more. It can be assumed that this estimate is very close to the truth.

Thus, we have to state with regret that the mathematical apparatus at the disposal of the author does not allow one to carry out any reliable calculations of the resistance of the horizontal protection of the battleships Rivend, Bayern and Pennsylvania. In view of the foregoing, it will be difficult to use the data on the armor penetration of horizontal armor given in various sources - as a rule, they are all based on the same calculations using de Marr's formulas and are incorrect.

To be continued ...

Appendix 1



Appendix 2

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  1. +2
    22 February 2019 07: 44
    Andrey, as always informative and interesting !! Thank . But only in the photo of Baden under the gunshot, on the forecastle and pooput some strange add-ons? such, I would say humpbacked.
    1. +1
      22 February 2019 08: 09
      If we mean small "fungi" on the deck in front of the missing 1st tower, then these are most likely spiers.
    2. +1
      22 February 2019 10: 54
      Quote: Lamatinets
      Here are just a photo of Baden under the gunshot, on a forecastle and poopuyut some strange add-ons?

      I myself would like to know, dear Igor. In the photo below, the bow can be considered in more detail, but it is still incomprehensible
    3. +2
      22 February 2019 14: 45
      "Strange superstructures" are on the bow a barbet of the 1st tower, which was removed, and on the stern there is a "hump" from the 2nd tower, which, together with its cannons, "merged" with the freeboard line due to the fact that the ship was given roll and the tower no longer looks like a tower when viewed from the side smile
    4. +2
      22 February 2019 16: 22
      According to conclusion number 1. Everything is wrong. Gave the same, the results of testing shells on the Aglitsky armor. "K" there is approx. 2500 (subject to the same quality of Russian and German shells). But it must be borne in mind that "K" falls at thicknesses over 305mm. Those. at a thickness of approx. 370mm, "K" will drop by about 150 units. Therefore, the armor penetration of the German gun against the English armor will be completely different.

      According to conclusion number 2. Again, everything is wrong. The German shell penetrated the 450mm plate, i.e. its thickness has gone far from the "reference" 305mm. Therefore, for slabs around 370mm, "K" will be noticeably higher. Again, everything must be recounted.

      According to the Amer’s cannon, some nonsense. For a distance of 21000m, the coefficient of shell shape is 0,5. And then, on the same plate, for a distance of 13260 m, coefficient of form 0,67 (which is closer to the truth for PMV shells). That is, obviously in one table, shells of different eras, with a radius came to life in 4 and 6 calibers (the latter for post-PMV).
      If we take the value of the form for the PMV at 0,67, then the speed is 75 kbt approx. 470m / s. And accordingly, the Amer 635kg shell decently loses both to the German and the English in armor penetration.
      On the whole, the author tried as best he could - but a shmog. Still, a solid deuce earned for the desire to sprinkle something.
      1. +2
        22 February 2019 17: 59
        Quote: Jura 27
        Everything is wrong. Gave the same, the results of testing shells on the Aglitsky armor. "K" there is approx. 2500 (subject to the same quality of Russian and German shells).

        Yura, then you argued that the Russian shell did not penetrate the armor. Then it turned out that still struck :))) This time. Second, it was written to you right then in white in Russian that the armor could be POST-WARED, that is, more durable. You could not object to this, but expressed your IMHO that the armor was from the time of the WWII, Well, IMHO they are IMHO, you can’t get to the point, but K at the 2500 level just shows that the armor was post-war.
        The third. K for 305 mm projectile and for 381 mm can be two big differences.
        Fourth. Well, why did you try? Shine once again with incompetence? Well, you succeeded
        Quote: Jura 27
        According to conclusion number 2. Again, everything is wrong. The German shell penetrated the 450mm plate, i.e. its thickness has gone far from the "reference" 305mm.

        Jura, you again managed to confuse God's gift with scrambled eggs, because with some fright you imagined that the de Marra formula works adequately only with armor thicknesses up to 305 mm. I know that the armor penetration of a Krupp armor plate with a thickness greater than 305 mm grows slower than its actual thickness, but the problem is that de Marr considered his formula in general for iron-steel armor :)))) And it gives only an ACCEPTABLE level in calculations for krupp
        So you don’t have to make a smart face, you can’t be smarter than Professor Goncharov, and it won’t work until you write a textbook for the artillerymen of the Maritime Academy :))) But he didn’t make such an amendment. I can assume that this is due to the normalization of the projectile trajectory during the passage of the armor (that is, the correction for cosine alpha becomes incorrect), but this is only my personal IMHO.
        Quote: Jura 27
        According to the Amer’s cannon, some nonsense.

        For you, all this is nonsense, which you cannot understand. And you know what? She surrounds you on all sides laughing
        Quote: Jura 27
        On the whole, the author tried as best he could - but a shmog.

        Judging by the abundance of your blunders (honestly about Americans, too lazy to disassemble your "nonsense") it is not for you to judge this, Yura.
        1. 0
          22 February 2019 19: 45
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          I know that the armor penetration of a krupp armor plate with a thickness exceeding 305 mm grows more slowly

          Armor resistance, of course. Slip of the pen
        2. +2
          22 February 2019 20: 09
          Second, it was written to you right then in white in Russian that the armor could be POST-WARNED, that is, more durable


          Colleague, here by the checkout. The British did not change the grade of vertical armor from 1912 to 1921. The new brand is already "type 1922". Yura is right. May Nathan Okun be with you :)

          but K at level 2500 just shows that the armor was post-war.


          This is what a fright? K at the 2500 level can be obtained by shooting the core with iron :)

          The third. K for 305 mm projectile and for 381 mm can be two big differences.


          Ok, and how is the volume factor recalculated for you?

          but the problem is that de Marr considered his formula in general for steel armor :))))


          Colleague, there are more than a dozen de Marr formulas, the fact is that de Marr did not derive all these formulas, but the "de Marr's law", then his followers finished the conversion coefficients

          smarter than Professor Goncharov you can’t be


          once again, I’ll draw attention to the fact that Goncharov wrote a little differently than he is understood on this site, let's take a break, all three of us will read it again and continue tomorrow with fresh brains - it will be cool
          1. 0
            22 February 2019 20: 23
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            Colleague, here past the cash register. The British did not change the brand of vertical armor from 1912 to 1921 years

            Let me doubt it
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            This is what a fright? K at the 2500 level can be obtained by shooting the core with iron :)

            This, Andrey, is not from a fright, but from the firing of 305-mm shells.
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            Ok, and how is the volume factor recalculated for you?

            What do you mean by volume factor? :))))
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            Colleague, there are more than a dozen de Marr formulas, the fact is that de Marr did not derive all these formulas, but the "de Marr's law", then his followers finished the conversion coefficients

            Which does not negate the nature of its formulas :) And prevents the spread of horizontal armor
            1. +2
              22 February 2019 20: 34
              This, Andrey, is not from a fright, but from the firing of 305-mm shells.


              stop Colleague, let's sequentially:

              de Marr gives relative coefficients. That is, the de Marr coefficient is only valid for a specific projectile hitting a specific armor. Changing the brand of projectile and brand of armor entails the need for a new definition of K. Therefore, the same ARS 305/52 arr. 1911 tr. 1913 can easily give K = 2020 in the armor of "Sevastopol" and K = 2475 in the armor "R" because it is almost a quarter stronger.

              absolute coefficients for everything for the first time, IMHO, introduced Nathan Okun - but that's a completely different story

              Let's once again "according to Goncharov" each, and tomorrow "Goncharov" for three)
        3. -2
          24 February 2019 06: 25
          [/ quote] Jura, then you argued that the Russian shell did not penetrate the armor. Then it turned out that still struck :))) This time. Second, it was written to you right then in Russian in white that the armor could be POST-WAR, that is, more durable. [Quote]

          I will not be very distracted by Andrei’s frank lies and ordinary verbiage (I never claimed that the Russian shell didn’t penetrate the armor, on the contrary, wrote that I did; and the PMV ended later than the tests of the shells and, accordingly, the time of making the armor plate, i.e. the last is not post-war).

          So, the battle of England with a German and an Amer: English penetrates 350 and 343mm armor of opponents somewhere from 74 kbt; German penetrates 330mm Angle with only 58 kbt (V = 538 m / s, K = 2350); Amer penetrates 330mm Angle with 50kbt (V = 557 m / s, K = 2350). Summary: thanks to the best quality armor and the heavy shell of the 15 "cannon, English, has a significant advantage over both opponents in the size of the ZSM (at 16 and 24 kbt).

          Fight of a German with an Amer: a German penetrates 343mm of armor with 69kbt (V = 502m / s, K = 2134), an Amer penetrates 350mm of a German's armor with 66kbt (V = 499m / s, K = 2021) .Thus, a slight advantage in the size of the ZSM behind the Bayern.
          The factor for Amer’s armor is calculated (2134), in connection with laziness, look for real data. The factor of the form of the Amer’s projectile of 0,67 is taken from the table in navvips and corresponds to those of the WWI (and it is not clear what, in the TS-a post).
          Bottom line: battleships of the "R" type, cover all opponents, like a bull sheep. The German and American battleships are almost equal with each other, with a slight advantage of the German.
          1. +3
            24 February 2019 11: 18
            Quote: Jura 27
            I will not be very distracted by Andrei’s frank lies and ordinary verbiage (I never claimed that the Russian shell didn’t pierce the armor

            Of course :)))) But the comments are saved, that’s what you said, you’re polite:
            Quote: Jura 27
            And of course, Andryusha pofik that the projectile crashed against the English 8 "armor, and overcame the Russian 270mm (and 250mm too)" with a bang.

            That is, you just tried to hide the fact that the projectile crashed only after the projectile overcame the armor. And only after they asked you for confirmation, and even translated it from English - then you quickly passed back
            Well, the given "calculation" is a manipulation of the K coefficient for the data you need
            1. 0
              24 February 2019 13: 21
              That is, you just tried to hide the fact that the projectile crashed only after the projectile overcame the armor. And only after they asked you for confirmation, and even translated it from English - then you quickly passed back


              I supported you above against Jura, now it’s time to reverse)

              I hope that they will not ban me for another quote in a foreign language, so I’ll give you an exact quote:
              Between the end of 1918 and the beginning of 1919 the British tested the Russian projectiles against 8 "(20.3 cm) Cemented (face-hardened) armor at 20 degrees to the normal, this being the condition used to test the British 12" (30.5 cm) Mark VIIa (Greenboy) projectiles. The projectile holed the plate but
              broke up
              at 1,447 fps (441 mps) and penetrated intact at 1,615 fps (493 mps).

              Armor Penetration Definitions - The ability of an Armor Piercing projectile to penetrate armor is defined as follows: ...
              Holing Limit - The maximum thickness of face hardened armor plate that can be damaged by a particular AP projectile. The projectile itself is rejected, but a plug of armor, usually of the diameter of the striking projectile, is pushed into the ship.
              Naval Limit - The maximum thickness of armor where at least 80% of the projectile penetrates. Usually this means that the projectile is broken up and will probably not explode, but it will still inflict splinter damage on whatever is behind the armor plate.
              Effective Limit - The maximum thickness of armor a projectile will penetrate relatively intact and still explode as intended.

              That is:
              penetrate intact = pierced with the ability to rupture from the detonator
              broken up = cracked
              Naval Limit = at least 80% of the projectile mass went inside
              Holing = a through hole appeared in the armor plate

              So, K de Marra is usually "tuned" to the border between the Naval zone and the Effective zone (that's right), but it can be taken, for example, in the Naval zone.
              Decide already, please, both two, as we take it and will continue to count it, otherwise you’ll say in different coordinate systems, I need to communicate with you)

              Threat. colleagues who have trouble with English, do not be offended, quotes from Naval Vipons do not contain information that humiliates you - do not write to administrators
              ZyZy. Andrei and Yura have already given translations of this each, so I will not post the third translation, ok?


              1. 0
                24 February 2019 14: 47
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                I supported you above against Jura, now it’s time to reverse)

                Andrey, it’s practically impossible to understand what you wanted to say with this fragment, since it does not contain a description of the impact of the Russian shell.
                The problem is not that you print English originals, the problem is that after reading them, it is completely unclear what you wanted to say. what
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                broken up = cracked

                Who's arguing? The question is, after the breakdown of the plate, the Russian "broken up" shell
                1. 0
                  24 February 2019 15: 09
                  laughing

                  I will express my thought more simply:
                  If penetration = penetration of a projectile capable of detonation, then we take such armor-piercing conditionally for 100%
                  If penetration = hole with penetration of more than 80% of the projectile, then we take such armor-piercing conditionally for 120%
                  If penetration = penetration of chips during the explosion of an APC in a plate, then we take such armor-piercing conditionally for 140%

                  Then "K" de Marra has an inverse relationship of the type:
                  If penetration = penetration of a detonating projectile, then 2800
                  If penetration = hole with penetration of more than 80% of the projectile, then 2400
                  If penetration = chip penetration during an APC explosion in a plate, then 2000

                  Yura, as I see from his comments, takes "penetration = penetration of a projectile capable of detonation" (he writes "brok up = did not penetrate")
                  You object to him, as I see from your comments, on the basis that "penetration = hole with penetration of more than 80% of the projectile" (you write "brok up = pierced")

                  It is clear that your calculated "K" will differ by 20% feel
                  1. 0
                    24 February 2019 15: 30
                    Andrey, I don’t know why you need it, but the phrase
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    If penetration = hole with penetration of more than 80% of the projectile

                    и
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    the shell crashed against the English 8 "armor

                    these are two big differences, as they say in Odessa. In addition, we do not know how much% of the shell penetrated there.
                    But this is not the point: the most important thing is that such a result (one shell pierced the plate cleanly, the second shell pierced the plate and fell apart) cannot serve for far-reaching conclusions. Destruction of a projectile in one case may be the result of a banal marriage during the manufacture of this particular projectile, it is impossible to build on this evidence of the unsuitability of Russian shells or armor
                    1. 0
                      24 February 2019 15: 46
                      Destruction of a shell in one case may be the result of a banal marriage during the manufacture of this particular shell;


                      I believe that the integrity of the testers should be presumed. And equally.

                      I will explain:
                      1. For example, at one of the deceased in fact forums, they sat and thought for a year and came to the conclusion that it was irrefutably proven that when testing a 305-mm arr. 1911, shelling of already damaged plates was carried out, and even hits were taken into account. Because and only because "K" Russian armor against 305-mm mod. 1911 dropped to 1695, which, in principle, cannot be with Krupp steel. There is a clear lime tree, they have been talking about it for a long time with figures and facts, but you accept it.
                      2.AdM for testing 305 mm against British armor, I have not seen, moreover, I have not even found a mention. But, firstly, I have never seen convincing accusations against British test methods, and, secondly, compared to "Quality 420", the armor of the Germans and the British improved. So, it is not surprising that the German 1913 model and the British 1912 model are much stronger. There is no even indirect evidence of the incorrectness of this result, therefore it is still premature to multiply entities beyond what is necessary.
                      1. 0
                        24 February 2019 16: 02
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        and came to the conclusion that it was irrefutably proved that during testing the 305-mm arr. 1911 was fired at already damaged plates, while even hits in hits were taken into account.

                        It wasn’t. That is, of course, they fired multiple shots at the same plate, but there was no hit, especially since the reports for each hit indicated its place.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        that's why and only because "K" Russian armor against 305-mm mod. 1911 dropped to 1695, which, in principle, cannot be with Krupp steel.

                        Your will, only something strange you say. When was 1695 there?
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        There is a clear linden, they have been talking about it for a long time with numbers and facts, but you accept it.

                        Specify what exactly seems to you to be fake. Very common allegations.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I did not see the ADM for testing the 305-mm against British armor, moreover, I did not even find a mention. But, firstly, I have never been able to see convincing accusations against British test methods

                        who also fired on the same plate multiple times
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        So, it is not surprising that the German 1913 model and the British 1912 type are much stronger. There are no even indirect data on the incorrectness of this result.

                        As, in fact, there is no result itself. While there is only a statement :))))
                      2. 0
                        24 February 2019 16: 12
                        When was there?


                        In 370 mm slabs in 1920. I beg your pardon, since there is no "Nicholas I" here, let's do it another time. And then you are not there, but they will still ban me)
                      3. 0
                        24 February 2019 18: 04
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        In the 370-mm slab in the 1920 year.

                        Completely out of the question. The breakdown of 370 mm of the plate "on the edge" was made at an angle from the normal of 20 degrees, a speed on the armor of 1686 feet per second, with an unloaded projectile model 1911, which corresponds to K = 1
                      4. 0
                        24 February 2019 18: 16
                        I have two tablets on the laptop:
                        370 mm plate resulting 22 and 514 m / s = 1794
                        370 mm plate resulting 22 and 486 m / s = 1695
                        I will check / recount,
                        dear colleague, it's time to add "Nikolai the First" and "Fuso", then by the summer we will figure it out / check everything right away wink
                      5. +1
                        24 February 2019 18: 47
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        370-mm plate resulting 22 and 514 m / s

                        This was not :)))) The angle in all cases was not 22, but 20 grad, and at 486 m / s the armor shell did not penetrate. When re-firing at the same plate at the same speed, I knocked out the cork, but by that time they had hit the plate at least three times
                      6. 0
                        24 February 2019 19: 13
                        I’ll check, unsubscribe) there is a description, I’ll drive it into the reading room, above 1815 it still won’t work)
                      7. +1
                        24 February 2019 23: 37
                        Understood, clarified:

                        For 305 mm, the resulting angle is 22 degrees:
                        5) 370 mm plate. Whole (?) 556 m / s. The plate is broken. 50 mm bevel pierced and bilge bulkhead
                        7) 370-mm plate damaged (?) At a speed of 514 m \ s - pierced the armor and was reflected from the 50-mm bevel.
                        8) The 370-mm plate is damaged (?) At 486 m / s I did not penetrate the armor, 130 mm deep.
                        9) 370 mm plate damaged (?) At 486 m \ s pierced the armor

                        Written by a colleague "realswat" from a copy of the original document.
                        Vinogradov can be put aside, ok?
                      8. +1
                        25 February 2019 07: 51
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Written by a colleague "realswat" from a copy of the original document.

                        Andrei, I really respect realsvat, so I’ve got to check if the scans of documents are at hand. Yes, really 22 hail, but
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        9) 370-mm plate damaged (?) When 486 m / s pierced the armor

                        I didn’t break it, but knocked out the cork, while I didn’t go inside
                      9. 0
                        25 February 2019 08: 31
                        laughing

                        Good morning, dear colleague!
                        this is just your favorite from the showdown with Yura:
                        The projectile holed the plate but broke up laughing

                        I told you: determine the boundary criterion for calculating "K" winked
                      10. +1
                        25 February 2019 14: 53
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I told you: determine the boundary criterion for calculating "K"

                        Andrey, you may have forgotten, but here we are looking for the K coefficient, if that :)))) Moreover, based on the results of the experienced shooting :)))) And give you boundary criteria laughing
                        In order to find K, you need to determine the conditions in which the projectile pierced the plate at the limit of the possible. And here each case must be considered individually. Because if, for example, a projectile pierced the slab and repeatedly under the same conditions pierced the slab, but collapsed at the same time (I'm not talking about Yura now), this is one thing and POSSIBLY these parameters can be taken to calculate K. And if in one case he is a slab did not break through, but in another knocked out a cork from it, but did not go inside the zabronevoy space, this is completely different and "does not pull" for armor penetration.
                        In general, there is time to drive ourselves into the framework of the criteria, and there is time for an individual approach, our case is the last.
                        I understand that in Tsushima or somewhere else you did it differently. But your method is not an owl, and I am not a globe, so do not pull it on me laughing
                      11. 0
                        25 February 2019 20: 40
                        And give you boundary criteria laughing


                        Well, yes, I am neatly writing about the armor penetration numbers of the type "no closer than 120 cables", since I put off each point as a segment with a certain direction, such as "I pierced 350 mm, but almost at the limit" = I write 350-370

                        if we take
                        5) 370 mm plate. Whole (?) 556 m / s. The plate is broken. 50 mm bevel pierced and bilge bulkhead
                        7) 370-mm plate damaged (?) At a speed of 514 m \ s - pierced the armor and was reflected from the 50-mm bevel.
                        9) 370-mm plate damaged (?) When 486 m / s pierced the armor

                        Then the result is expected with the correct setting of "K" (breaking through with a whole, but without a guarantee of a pre-armor explosion):
                        5) and 7) gives K = no more than 1815
                        9) gives K = not less than 1680
                        The combination of other shots also will not allow pulling the average K to more than 1850.
                        The correct test procedure most likely gives K about 1800 - 1850 (but closer to 1800)
                    2. +2
                      24 February 2019 15: 47
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Destruction of a shell in one case may be the result of a banal marriage during the manufacture of this particular shell;

                      There, the EMNIP plate is still more fun - they used the same number of British and Russian shells in the shooting, and that the British, that the Russians pierced the armor in 100% of cases, but the same number of shells were pierced with reservations (they split after breaking or received other injuries that reduce their potential is British, however, the damage is different). But at the same time, the Russians are bad, yes, and the British greenboys are a masterpiece of artillery laughing
                      1. 0
                        24 February 2019 16: 08
                        Good afternoon! Dear colleague, I have only this:



                        And the link is that it is from ADM 186/189

                        There is a description on Naval Vipons and the conclusions of Nathan Okun that Russian shells were excellent, if you can share more about these shootings, I will be grateful as I can, I will honestly calculate everything

                        Shl. no one and the British themselves did not say that the Russian shells are bad, I also think they are wonderful, but I do not agree with "pulling an owl on the globe" that at their expense Sevastopoli immediately become "super-mega-imboy".
                      2. +2
                        24 February 2019 16: 20
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        that at their expense Sevastopoli immediately become a "super-mega-imboy"

                        And who is talking about imba? smile Don't attribute to others what they didn't say. Colleague Andrey wrote about "Sevastopol" more than once, and it all boiled down to at least partially overcoming the tendencies towards their constant denigration (it sucks in all respects). Quite to themselves mediocre battleships with excellent artillery (before the appearance of "greenboys" - the best in their caliber, and even after at a high level). That's all. And the fact that you can praise the Germans, British, Americans to saliva, snot and other liquid secretions, and only find fault with ours? This is an inferiority complex and masochism, there is no balanced analysis.
                      3. 0
                        24 February 2019 16: 57
                        Well, as I saw from one respected forum member of the pearl, like, if Hipper had not faced Beatty, but with four Sevs, it would have been from the Germans and wet ... - I almost fell off the chair (stories about 305 mm / 52 armor in 370 mm as a sheet of paper is also annoying)

                        Quite a mediocre battleship with excellent artillery


                        if my opinion is more detailed:
                        artillery GK = guns are nothing more than just decent, but the shells are excellent
                        armor = a number of advanced and very sensible ideas such as "very high belt" are leveled by a combination of small thicknesses and low quality armor, the fastening is very poor (on the Black Sea men it was possible to fix the fastening and increase the thickness),
                        speed = very incomprehensible, all tests were strange, their results can not be used, but in general (I think 22 knots), quite well
                        seaworthiness = no exact calculations, I think that only for the Baltic Fleet and the Black Sea Fleet will fit
                        range = there are also no exact calculations, I think that only for BF and PF will do
                        cost = excessive

                        In general, if built in 1912, they would be at least very good, albeit with an excessive price tag, but for 1915, yes, I agree, the maximum is "mediocre battleships with excellent artillery" drinks

                        I won’t write anymore, they complain about me that I’ll do it the best
                      4. +2
                        24 February 2019 17: 51
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Well, as I saw from one respected forum member of the pearl, like, if Hipper had not faced Beatty, but with four Seva, it would have been from the Germans and wet ... - I almost fell off the chair

                        Incredible, but it's a fact :))))
                      5. 0
                        24 February 2019 18: 09
                        Ok, there will be a reason, in another topic / thread we will consider the fight "Seydlitz" against "Sevastopol", since catch up with them "Kaisers-Kenigi" (which is very possible))))
                      6. +2
                        24 February 2019 18: 48
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Ok, there will be a reason, in another topic / thread we will consider the fight "Seydlitz" against "Sevastopol",

                        Yes, it’s not a question, I’ll finish with battleships, it will be possible to make an article with a hypothetical battle :))))
                      7. 0
                        24 February 2019 19: 17
                        yes, well, it’s not worth it with masochism, if the 5th squadron for some reason didn’t break them, then Sevastopoli is unlikely to succeed more,
                        I will not master the article itself + until Friday inclusive on the road
                        if only "Fuso" and "Nikolai the First" are in the standards - ready for constructive discussion soldier
                      8. +1
                        24 February 2019 19: 49

                        Colleague, how did your tongue turn?
                      9. +2
                        25 February 2019 07: 28
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        if 5-I squadron for some reason did not break them

                        The 5th squadron almost tore them, even without armor-piercing shells :)))
                      10. +1
                        24 February 2019 19: 47
                        YAYA Dast ist fiction!
            2. +1
              24 February 2019 14: 57
              Good afternoon, once again, dear colleague!

              I forgot to add a piece of comment, I'm sorry.

              I did not find the Mark 680, 1, 2, 3 in the range of ammunition for the 5-kg shell. And the guns of Mark 8 and later also had an enhanced charge, so it’s simply impossible to compare them, IMHO.

              If we take the data indicated on Naval Vipons BuOrd table "Elements of US Naval Guns" of 17 May 1918 as published in "US Naval Weapons", of which we will get about 250 mm from 75 cables, then "Pennsylvania" goes to understand, if not with "Nassau" then "about there"

              Also, "Nathan Okun and his team" set a quality factor = 8 for the MK-1 projectile of the MK-0,890 "Pennsylvania" gun for calculations according to the "Feishard" scheme, again, "Pennsylvania" is going to sort it out, if not with "Nassau", then " about there "

              Only abstracting from the real quality of the shell and the armor, as I understand the dependence of Berkalov - Gobar, ceteris paribus at a distance of 75 cable for vertical armor
              if the armor penetration of the theoretical "shell 866 kg and 752 m / s" is taken as 1,
              then the armor penetration of the theoretical "shell 750 kg and 800 m / s" will be about 0,91
              and the armor penetration of the theoretical "shell of 635 kg and 792 m / s" will be less than 0,85
            3. +1
              24 February 2019 18: 40
              [/ quote] That is, you just tried to hide the fact that the projectile crashed only after the projectile overcame the armor. [quote]

              Those. overcame and only then crashed? Amazing !!!! And what caused the destruction of the shell already behind the armor plate? Your head Or English, rock solid air?
              Stop writing nonsense, the shell crashed at the moment of overcoming the stove. And I didn’t write anywhere that the plate was not broken, I wrote that the shell crashed on the plate, and not on the air behind it, or else it was not known.

              The "rigging" of the K coefficient was that I took real shelling results. I took the calculated value only for the Amer’s gun, but with it everything is clear that it doesn’t dance with a light shell and low n / s against the cannons of the English and German.

              Regarding the allegedly defective Russian shell. There, in the plate, there is still a bunch of the same "defective", but only this time English shells. And a bunch of non-defective ones too. "Defective", from not defective, differ in that when the speed on the armor is increased above a certain value (I hope you see it), the "marriage" of shells disappears and they briskly penetrate the armor plate, remaining intact (or with relatively little damage).
              1. +1
                24 February 2019 19: 28
                The "juggling" of the coefficient K consisted in the fact that


                Dear colleagues, once again:

                Yura, as I see from his comments, takes "penetration = penetration of a projectile capable of detonation" (he writes "brok up = did not penetrate")
                You object to him, as I see from your comments, on the basis that "penetration = hole with penetration of more than 80% of the projectile" (you write "brok up = pierced")
                It is clear that your calculated "K" will differ by 20%. Feel


                No juggling. Just different frames of reference = different "K". Here you are right BOTH laughing

                the shell crashed at the time of overcoming the plate


                Well, yes, I’ve lost the ability to detonate) In the settlement system of Jura = I didn’t break through, in the settlement system of Andrey = break through.

                If you hit in the side belt, then the split shell will be stopped by coal and bevel = ineffective.
                If you hit the turret’s front plate, then a cracked shell = how lucky, theoretically it can set fire to a cord and make a big drum, it can take down tower control (see Baden), or it can just kill some servants
                If you hit a barbet = also with luck, nothing can happen, or you can break a shoulder strap, it can also theoretically set fire to a cord and make a big drum

                If you want, we can talk in two reference systems at once, so, probably, even more correctly
                1. 0
                  25 February 2019 06: 33
                  [/ quote] In the settlement system of Jura = did not break, in the settlement system of Andrei = broke. [quote]

                  In my system, it just "struck". Otherwise, you will have to slightly increase the breakdown speed and the "K" coefficient will surely go off scale for the English one for 2500.
          2. +1
            24 February 2019 12: 25
            Good afternoon, dear colleague!

            Vice-Admiral von Trott (1930) gives information that Bayern penetrates 343 mm of armor at a distance of 9400 meters, as well as 356 mm of armor at a distance of 8700 meters. To obtain the specified data, the Germans take the penetration under the condition of testing the resulting angle of 30 degrees (trajectory angle + heading angle), and not about 7 (only trajectory angle). Under the same test conditions, the same German data from the post-WWII period provide information that the Queen Elizabeth penetrates the Bayern's 350-mm armor only from a distance of 7800 meters.

            Evers (1931) points out that the 380 mm Baden projectile penetrates 450 mm of armor as on the Baden at 551 m / s at zero angle with a huge speed reserve.

            Also on the Naval Vipons website there is information about 350 mm at a distance of 12 meters against, as I understand it, Wotan and 500 mm from a distance of 336 meters against KS without specifying the mark.

            From these data, I can not get a clear superiority of the British)

            The shelling of the Baden in 1921 showed a de Marr coefficient of K = 381 round for the ratio of the 350mm Greenboy versus the 2000mm Baden armor.

            No one has ever said in the documents available to me that British armor is better than German armor as 2350 to 2000, maximum, "under certain conditions, up to 10 percent better" this goes back to the British archival documents "Progress in artillery materiel ..." (1921) and "Report on the survey of Baden ..." (1920).

            So my question is: where does K = 2350 for Royal Sovereign armor against Baden's shells?
  2. +2
    22 February 2019 08: 06
    Thank you, Andrey. A detailed analysis, a rather interesting conclusion about the similar armor penetration of guns of the types of compared battleships. We look forward to continuing!
  3. +2
    22 February 2019 09: 13
    The main conclusion to be drawn from the above material is that the guns used made it possible to confidently hit the sides of their counterparts at reasonable combat distances. Accordingly, the advantage was given to the one who had more explosive charge for the subsequent explosion after breaking through.
  4. +4
    22 February 2019 09: 59
    Thank you so much Andrew!
    One important note regarding the power of the American 14 "/ 45 Mk1-3 guns.
    With an initial speed of 2600 feet per second (new barrel) and a projectile weight of 1400 pounds (and these are the parameters of the First World War), even by the de Marr formula, it is significantly inferior to 15-inch Mk-1 and 38-cm SK L / 45 in breaking through a vertical obstacle .
    At one time (it’s about 25-30 years ago), we in a computer center simulated armor penetration by sea shells of the main belt. Conditions were taken corresponding to the de Marr formula. The available translated material also provided a significant scatter of data, but the tendency was clear: when the armor thickness deviated significantly from the caliber of the projectile, the formula stopped working, giving an overestimation of the penetration limit for thick armor and an understatement for thin armor. N. Okun also noted this in his works and deduced a new formula that is more adequate for the actual thickness of the armor and the caliber of the shells.
    Obviously, the ratio of the masses of the armor plate and the projectile plays a role, and for lighter projectiles, the value of the penetration limit of the final armor plate in area decreases. Roughly speaking, it is not only the "piercing" that matters, but also the deflection of the sheet from the impulse, and the impulse of a heavy projectile is greater, as is the contact area. This factor has an even greater influence on overcoming a horizontal barrier at a significant angle of encounter between the projectile and the armor.
    Hence, the caliber 14 "looks like an outsider next to the 15" or 16 ", which was confirmed during the design work on the high-speed battleships of the 30s. Another thing is that for dreadnoughts of the First World power 4" / 45 Mk1-3 was enough in abundance, as determined their long service in the US Navy.
    1. 0
      22 February 2019 10: 53
      Greetings, dear Victor!
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      One important note regarding the power of the American 14 "/ 45 Mk1-3 guns.
      With an initial speed of 2600 feet per second (new barrel) and a projectile weight of 1400 pounds (and these are the parameters of the First World War), even by the de Marr formula, it is significantly inferior to 15-inch Mk-1 and 38-cm SK L / 45 in breaking through a vertical obstacle .

      It would be interesting to get acquainted with the calculations, because I did not succeed. According to my data, it turns out that the 356-mm projectile at a distance of 75 cables hits vertical armor at an angle of 10,26 to the normal at a speed of 533,7 m. The parameters of the German artillery system turned out to be worse for me (12,42 grad and 482,2 m / s) while the weight of the shells varies slightly, and the American is even smaller in caliber, that is, it is easier for him to penetrate armor.
      True, it saves that the German projectile showed better armor penetration than English, only due to this and parity
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      N. Okun also noted the same in his work and deduced a new formula that is more adequate for the actual thickness of the armor and caliber shells

      Yes, but it is strictly speculative and not the fact that it is true. de Marr built the formula on the basis of actual shelling, and Okun based on his own considerations. And after I found out that he used a calculator for tank guns in his calculations ... in general, I do not believe in the power of his speculation :)))
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Roughly speaking, it is not only the "piercing" that matters, but also the deflection of the sheet from the impulse, and the impulse of a heavy projectile is greater, as is the contact area.

      Absolutely agree
      1. +6
        22 February 2019 11: 32
        I completely agree with you regarding the Perch. He loves to force the truth to please addictions, but he noticed the inconsistency of the interaction model between the armor and the shell with the polygon data.
        Now, according to the actual velocity of the projectile at the target:
        Why is it a German projectile with a transverse load of 51,94 kg / dm2 flying at a muzzle velocity of 800 m / s has a target of 482,2 m / s, and an American projectile with a transverse load of 50,1 kg / dm2 flying at a muzzle speed of 792,5, 533,7 m / s has a target of XNUMX m / s? The ballistics of the shells at this distance are similar, so German has all the advantages.
        The program worked on the basis of finite increments and known ballistic parameters. For us, the most difficult moment was to take into account changes in the density of the atmosphere over the ocean in height, but at distances of up to 100 cab. everything turned out pretty similar, on distant ones I had to be smart. It is also very difficult to model the normalization of the projectile at significant angles of meeting (this was not done by me, but by a serious strongman, alas, now deceased). An important point is also taking into account the depth of cementation of the slab and the quality of the armor-piercing cap. Alas, all this died with the CC.
        1. 0
          22 February 2019 12: 48
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Why is it a German projectile with a transverse load of 51,94 kg / dm2 flying with a muzzle velocity of 800 m / s has a target of 482,2 m / s, and an American projectile with a transverse load of 50,1 kg / dm2 flying with a muzzle velocity of 792,5 m / s has a target of 533,7 m / s?

          I believe that the question is air resistance and the different aerodynamic quality of the shells.
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          The ballistics of the shells at this distance are similar, so the German one has all the advantages

          I used the calculator in this way - I determined the ballistic quality of the projectile using a reference example (for example, the maximum firing range, that is, we know for sure that at a certain elevation angle and initial velocity the projectile flew exactly as much) and then did the calculations for the projectile of such a ballistic quality (in my calculator this is called the shape factor)
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          It is also very difficult to model the normalization of the projectile at significant angles

          And here it can be slightly ignored, since de Marr’s formulas already include the normalization effect :))) Of course, you can calculate how much the projectile will change the direction of exit from the stove (by the way, Goncharov has a charming schedule on this subject) but here a change in the path of the projectile in the armor plate under the influence of normalization ... Will this affect much?
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          you, it all died with the CC.

          Very sorry
          1. +4
            22 February 2019 13: 30
            For the first question, NavWeaps gives:
            For the 14 "/ 45 Mk-1 Mark 8 shell:
            Ranges of projectiles fired at new gun muzzle velocities
            Elevation Distance Striking Velocity Angle of Fall
            7.4 degrees 13,000 yards (11,890 m) 1,645 fps (501 mps) 10.1
            8.2 degrees 14,000 yards (12,800 m) 1,595 fps (485 mps) 11.4
            8.6 degrees 14,500 yards (13,260 m) 1,571 fps (479 mps) 12.1
            15 degrees 23,000 yards (21,030 m) --- ---
            For 38-cm SK L / 45:
            Range with 1,653 lbs. (750 kg) AP
            Elevation Distance
            16 Degrees 22,310 yards (20,400 m)
            20 degrees 25,370 yards (23,200 m)
            that is, the advantage in ballistic coefficient for the American, I will take into account. But the target speed for the 14 "AP Mark 8 will be about 475 m / s.

            According to de Mar - this is for small meeting angles (actually - up to 25 degrees to the normal), normalization is interesting for spaced reservation systems - the upper deck / main armor, and there the corners are different.

            According to the program: not for long and to restore, there would be a Goal (with a capital letter).
            1. 0
              22 February 2019 13: 53
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              But the target speed for the 14 "AP Mark 8 will be about 475 m / s.

              I am afraid that here Navveps is mistaken, and very much. There is no link to the data source, but 475 m / s on the calculator does not work well, and they contradict the data on other 14-dm artillery systems
          2. 0
            23 February 2019 00: 59
            Why is it a German projectile with a transverse load of 51,94 kg / dm2 flying with a muzzle velocity of 800 m / s has a target of 482,2 m / s, and an American projectile with a transverse load of 50,1 kg / dm2 flying with a muzzle velocity of 792,5 m / s has a target of 533,7 m / s?
            I believe that the question is air resistance and the different aerodynamic quality of the shells.


            So much difference? I am ready to believe only after a very serious proof.

            And it can be slightly ignored here, since de Marr’s formulas already include the normalization effect :)))


            And you can clarify two things:
            -What exactly is the formula you use?
            - where exactly is the normalization effect taken into account?
    2. 0
      23 February 2019 00: 55
      with a significant deviation of the armor thickness from the caliber of the projectile, the formula ceased to work, giving an overestimation of the penetration limit for thick armor and an understatement for thin armor.


      I support a colleague, but I must clarify:
      - if the thickness of the armor is greater than the caliber, then I consider the probability of the projectile retaining the ability to detonate from the fuse as negligible, and this is already an effective defense (well, except for the frontal plate of the tower)
      -de Marr, do not be stupid, and his followers, as I know, proceeded from the fact that these patterns do not apply to armor thinner than 3 inches, here you are 100% right even without calculations in the CC
      -the steel grade has a very big effect on deflection / piercing: there is a big difference between STS and WS), here I also agree 100%

      -
      Obviously, the mass ratio of the armor plate and the shell plays a role, and for lighter shells, the value of the penetration limit of the armor plate, which is finite in area, decreases.

      but the Germans, they say, for fifty years, proceeded from their theory of "shock blow", such as "a karateka breaks a brick": a sharp impact of a projectile with a high speed (albeit a light one) makes the KS-armor crumble - I read this idea more than once, but no calculations , I have not found the results of experiments as proofs in any language

      Another thing is that for dreadnoughts of the First world power 4 "/ 45 Mk1-3 was enough in abundance.

      belay and here I will be very grateful for the justification of your statement
      1. +1
        25 February 2019 09: 56
        Our calculations were carried out in terms of creating a game such as sea battle, so that was not a kind of scientific creation. They simply raised questions about the significance of breaking through armor according to H. Wilson, but then it went deeper.
        On the issue of de Marr armor resilience: the projectile is accepted as an absolutely rigid body, and the presence of a mild steel cap is taken into account by a coefficient, which is fundamentally wrong, because the projectile has a finite value of tensile strength and requires taking into account all the stresses upon impact (including the most dangerous shear from the point of failure).
        What it turned out: starting with the ratio of the thickness of the Krupp armor / projectile caliber of 1,5, for conventional armor-piercing projectiles of the WWII caliber of 12 - 16 inches, the armor penetration is practically exhausted. The angle of meeting with the armor also plays a role, all turns are valid only at meeting angles less than 30 degrees to the normal. The harder fragile armor holds a direct impact worse than the more ductile, and vice versa, wins at significant meeting angles. The model used an armor-compound with a solid "face" - an outer sheet and with a strong "rear" - an inner sheet with their rigid connection.
        At real PMV distances, the velocity of the projectile at the target is 500 - 600 m / s., Here the mass of the projectile with a hard impact (breaking) is more important. By the way, the triumph of the croup armor is connected precisely with the fragmentation of a shell of 240 mm of the XNUMXth century about an equally thick armor with a hard face.
        About the sufficiency of the 14 "/ 45 Mk-1 (sorry for the mistake) against most PMV dreadnoughts:
        14 "/ 45 Mk-1-3 projectile 635 kg / 14" / 45 Mk-8-12 projectile 680 kg:
        armor 203-229 mm ("Congo" and "Tiger") - up to 15/30 km
        armor 305-mm ("Iron Duke", "Fuso", "Nagato") up to 11 / 21,4 km
        armor 330 mm ("Queen Elizabeth") up to 9,6 / 19 km
        More than enough, respectively, for the PMV / WWII distances.
        Sorry for the delay, I do not write on the road.
        1. 0
          25 February 2019 10: 10
          Good morning, dear colleague!

          On the issue of de Marr armor resilience: the projectile is accepted as an absolutely rigid body, and the presence of a mild steel cap is taken into account by a coefficient, which is fundamentally wrong, because the projectile has a finite value of tensile strength and requires taking into account all the stresses upon impact (including the most dangerous shear from the point of failure).

          I agree, but the cap is in the empirical "K".

          As it turned out: starting from the ratio of Krupp armor thickness / projectile caliber of 1,5, for conventional armor-piercing shells of the WWII caliber of 12 - 16 inches, armor penetration is almost exhausted.

          I agree in general, but I consider the following values ​​for PMV:
          1,0 projectile caliber - whole penetration limit
          1,2 caliber projectile - penetration limit of fragments without detonation in the plate
          1,4 caliber projectile - the limit of penetration of fragments during detonation in the plate
          (source of Berkalov diagram)

          The angle of meeting with the armor also plays a role, all twists are valid only at meeting angles of less than 30 degrees to the normal.

          Agree for WWII. For PMA I will presume a limit of 20 degrees of the resulting angle, except in exceptional cases such as "Greenboy".

          The harder fragile armor holds a direct impact worse than the more ductile, and vice versa, wins at significant meeting angles. The model used an armor-compound with a solid "face" - an outer sheet and with a strong "rear" - an inner sheet with their rigid connection.

          I agree, but we still need to look in more detail at the type of projectile and the structure of the transition from face to base.

          At real PMV distances, the velocity of the projectile at the target is 500 - 600 m / s., Here the mass of the projectile with a hard impact (breaking) is more important. By the way, the triumph of the croup armor is connected precisely with the fragmentation of a shell of 240 mm of the XNUMXth century about an equally thick armor with a hard face.

          Plus 100500, but this is about "quality 420".

          About sufficiency 14 "/ 45 Mk-1
          (sorry for the typo) against most PMV dreadnoughts:
          14 "/ 45 Mk-1-3 projectile 635 kg / 14" / 45 Mk-8-12 projectile 680 kg:
          armor 203-229 mm ("Congo" and "Tiger") - up to 15/30 km
          armor 305-mm ("Iron Duke", "Fuso", "Nagato") up to 11 / 21,4 km
          armor 330 mm ("Queen Elizabeth") up to 9,6 / 19 km
          More than enough, respectively, for the PMV / WWII distances.
          belay
          Colleague, here I am very sorry. But for me the normal distance is about 13500 meters, but here Mark 1 (635 kg and 792 m / s) is untenable against the vertical armor of the same "Baden"

          Sorry for the delay, I do not write on the road.
          I also do not write long posts on the road, thanks a lot for the detailed answer.

          Best regards, hi
    3. +1
      24 February 2019 15: 56
      Colleague, I understand that you have no time, but still:

      Another thing is that for dreadnoughts of the First world power 4 "/ 45 Mk1-3 was enough in excess, which determined their long service in the US Navy.

      belay

      Is it possible in more detail about the long and glorious service of the Mk8 shell and the Mk1 gun (with a normal camera)
      and then I have even a completely different info on this wassat
  5. 0
    22 February 2019 11: 07
    I’ve increased a bit of the photo, it’s still not clear what it is, or instead of the GK towers, or some kind of NP
  6. +3
    22 February 2019 11: 11
    Honestly, nefiga did not understand, except for the conclusion feel
    The question is, what about the content of explosives? Armor penetration is, of course, good, but .... but it will be like in Russian-Japanese what
    1. +1
      22 February 2019 11: 20
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      Honestly, nefiga did not understand, except for the conclusion

      laughing Well, okay, conclusions are the main thing, getting into formulas is not always interesting :)))
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      The question is, what about the content of explosives?

      And we will look, where without it :))))
  7. +2
    22 February 2019 11: 31
    The fact is that Jacob de Marr, unfortunately, did not bother at all with creating a formula for determining the resistance of horizontal protection.
    The fact is, Andrei, that you used de Marr's formula in a very "ancient" form. Now it is used in the form of formula (15.9) for vertical armor and in the form (15.10) for horizontal armor.

    This is from Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition. Authors -: Donald E. Carlucci, Sidney S. Jacobson. The book is online.
    1. +1
      22 February 2019 12: 34
      Quote: Decimam
      The fact is, Andrei, you used de Marr's formula in a very "ancient" form. Now it is used in the form of the formula

      The fact is, Victor, that you have not carefully read your own source. It says "some researchers have expanded its (de Marr's formula) action on horizontal armor" - a very free, but reflecting the essence of the translation. What are "some researchers", Victor? :))))) Do you understand the difference between "some researchers" and "Use now" as you wrote? :))
      Of course, I know of cases of modernization of the de Marr formula. But the bottom line is that in the original it does not reflect the physics of the processes, but only some patterns of penetration of vertical armor plates.
      So - with such initial conditions it is impossible to speculatively adapt the formula to horizontal armor. Even "some researchers" :))))
      You can blame the cosines for tangents and so on, but this makes absolutely no sense, since in order to derive the de Marre formula for horizontal armor, you must first test it by shooting, and then, based on tests, come up with a mathematical formula, into which the data of these tests "settle" more or less adequately and with the least loss in accuracy. And she, this formula, may have nothing to do with the original de Marr
      1. +1
        22 February 2019 14: 33
        Well, de Marr’s formula is not good. What other formulas did you use? Or are they all unsuitable?
        1. 0
          22 February 2019 15: 27
          Quote: Decimam
          OK, de Marra’s formula is not good

          Formula de Marra is suitable, and used it when calculating the armor resistance of vertical protection. But for calculating the horizontal it is not suitable, which I showed.
          1. +1
            22 February 2019 15: 41
            But have you tried other formulas?
    2. 0
      23 February 2019 12: 29
      Colleague, here I am forced to support Andrey from Chelyabinsk.

      He used the well-known formula of the time, for which the application scheme was given in the textbook. I myself have serious complaints against Goncharov and his friends / followers.

      But, the work you cited, as far as I read it, does not give an understanding of why the beta degree is better than de Marr's "K". If there is an opportunity to present justifying calculations, I would be grateful.
  8. +1
    22 February 2019 12: 32
    even if the 680-kg shells that appeared in the USA after 1923 are inferior to their 380-381-mm European "colleagues" in armor penetration, then what can we say about the earlier 635 kg shells that were equipped with 356-mm artillery of American dreadnoughts! They are lighter, which means they lose speed faster in flight, while their initial speed did not exceed heavier shells, and in terms of shape and quality of ammunition 1923


    Here, it seems to me that a mistake has been made, if we take the test and calculation data published in 1912, it can be seen from them that 635 kg of the projectile should penetrate 9140 mm armor at a range of 403 meters.



    The Americans believed that this weapon would be effective at a distance of up to 15,3 km. They had enough "fun" during the development, the Army (coastal defense) and the Navy, then worked together, creating a 14-inch gun similar in weight to a 12-inch one, then scattered in different directions, then began to cooperate again.
    1. 0
      22 February 2019 12: 51
      Quote: 27091965i
      Here, it seems to me a mistake has been made

      Well, so I counted the American 380 mm on the 75 cable :))))
      1. +1
        22 February 2019 13: 43
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Well, I counted an American 380 mm for 75 cable:


        Dear Andrey. I didn’t mean it, but a signature under the table;
        " 680 kg shell ", this is the data for the 635 kg projectile.
  9. 0
    22 February 2019 14: 49
    Dear Andrey, thank you, very interesting. I'm not at all competent in the topic, only I look at navweaps from time to time ...)) So, there I got the impression that the armor penetration of the Amer. guns overpriced to guns of other countries. I gave it to different test methods. Ex. the ancient 8 "/ 35 (118kg 640m / s 24MJ) mastered 142mm at 5490m, and the Russian 8" / 45 (88kg 899m / s 35MJ) - only 88mm ...
    Here is the question - in the same place for 14 "/ 45 Mark1-5 is given for 14630m - 226mm Harvey (!)
    from your table for 14630m - 307mm Krupp (some))
    and for late Mark 8-12 (the same muzzle energy) - 17190m-356mm (!)
    In both cases, such an increase only due to the projectile, I think is impossible. And what do you think?
  10. 0
    22 February 2019 16: 08
    Thanks to Andrei from Chelyabinsk, it was thanks to his articles that I learned a lot of new things for myself, I just go to his profile and select an article)))
  11. +1
    22 February 2019 16: 32
    Not bad!
    Purely methodological notes:
    1) When you describe the geometry of the incidence of the projectile and the angle - it is better to bring the picture - more clearly ... request
    2) It would be better to specify exactly what you mean in calculations by breaking through armor, as you said earlier ..
    3) the difference in armor penetration of less than 10 mm for armor of 14 dm is not serious and purely calculated - because Within the accuracy of manufacturing armor and in reality, pitching is more affected by pitching request
    4) Your 376,2 mm and 368,9 mm. touched ... bully interesting, but you make a conclusion intelligently! - "75 cables were roughly the same, approximately 365-380 mm." love In other words, at distances characteristic of the North Sea, Russians 12 * 356 are more effective, because with fast sighting they will provide a larger% of hits ... feel
    1. 0
      22 February 2019 18: 36
      Quote: ser56
      When you describe the geometry of the projectile’s incidence and the angle — it’s better to bring a drawing — more clearly ...

      I will consider :)))
      Quote: ser56
      It would be better to specify exactly what you mean in calculations by breaking through the armor, as you mentioned earlier ..

      Generally yes, you are right, it means the passage of a shell for armor in general
      Quote: ser56
      Your 376,2 mm and 368,9 mm. touched ..

      :)))) I agree. But the fact is that these are the values ​​that the calculator shows. Therefore, if someone wants to check my calculations - please, here are the exact values ​​up to the tenths that I came to, and yes, they give no practical value plus minus a centimeter :)))
      Quote: ser56
      In other words, Russians 12 * 356 are more effective at distances characteristic of the North Sea

      Oddly enough, but for a given distance and with an adequate speed (and not with 732 m / s) - it may very well be that yes.
      1. 0
        26 February 2019 11: 25
        Sorry for the late reply - was banned from the site ... crying
        not a big lesson in metrology if you want to hear hi - if it is interesting I can send a link to books ... feel
        here is a quote: "number of significant digits in the numerical value of the measurement result makes it possible to tentatively judge the accuracy of the measurement. This is due to the fact that the marginal error due to rounding is equal to half the unit of the last digit of the numerical value of the measurement result.
        Since the numbers can range from 1 to 9, then:
        1) for one significant digit, the marginal error of rounding may be in the range from 6 to 50%.
        2) with two significant figures, it will be from 0,6 to 5%,
        3) with three - from 0,06 to 0,5%, etc. "
        In other words - giving 4 digits you postulate the calculation accuracy of 0,06% ... bully
        Now about the accuracy of the calculation. Let’s carry out the simplest assessment - you have 5 members in the formula, a part to the power of less than 1 is good for accuracy, but even if you take the error in determining all components at 0,5% (the error is clearly underestimated), you can simply simplify these independent errors in vector form as the root of the sum of squares - (5 * 0,5 ^ 2) ^ 0.5 = 1,56%.
        In other words, more than 2 significant digits are not needed - see above ... therefore it is better to give in inches ... request
        1. 0
          26 February 2019 11: 30
          pressed the wrong button in the calculator feel - 1,12%, but this does not affect the conclusion bully
  12. +4
    22 February 2019 18: 25
    Greetings, namesake! drinks hi
    The article plus is undoubted, but I have a couple of questions (or nuances)! what
    All of it, of course, is wonderful, the angles of the projectile with the yurony, the angles of incidence of the projectile on the armor ...
    But there is ALWAYS an element of RANDOMITY !!!! Well, maybe God (or someone similar there) calls it a coincidence, which in our primitive worldview may seem like any regularity, but in any real battle (we will be based on the famous Memorial Jutland) it will become clear that the hit of a projectile under a certain ANGLE carries RANDOM (in reality) CHARACTER !!!!
    Therefore, all this armored (non-penetrable) penetration is purely conditional in nature !!!
    By the way, Happy Holiday (we are here in Belarus (* I, at least already in full !!!!!)) drinks hi
    With deepest respect, I !!! feel
  13. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. 0
        22 February 2019 19: 28
        I don’t have the whole text in Russian, but a short summery will be the next comment, then an assessment, and so on, a minute of patience, colleague
        1. +1
          22 February 2019 19: 30
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          I don’t have all the text in Russian,

          Even now I can give an estimate in Russian from Ineta !!! Yes
          At least approximate !!
          sir, your comments on Basurmanskiy give volume, but do not confuse wink lol
          PS. In common people - flood! hi
          1. +1
            22 February 2019 19: 49
            A person simply copy-paste the description of hits in Bayern. Let him, you look, come in handy. By the way, I do not have them in full
            1. 0
              22 February 2019 20: 18
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Let him, you look, come in handy.

              IN the first place in the reviews !!! fellow So, they also read basurman !!! wassat
            2. +1
              23 February 2019 00: 36
              Well, yes, I’m copying it, and I think it’s right) if they were, for example, Vinogradov would write much better) and a lot of respected authors from Patients to Suliga I also read English thoughts sometimes bully

              Threat. do not throw rotten eggs at me - I have a sadness. the computer from the old house the wife took to her company - they burned the motherboard - threw out the trash
              and there, in the 2010 archive, not only ADM for 127-mm tower roofs (here you can even count), but also, for example, ADM with calculations of the cost of various repair and modernization options for the same "Hood". And, for example, a report on the survey of "Baden" by British designers. In general, here I will not answer categorically for the market. I apologize. Goonies. recourse fool

              don't throw rotten eggs at me


              In general, if there are good documents in the original - throw scans, it will now translate
          2. 0
            22 February 2019 19: 58
            Even now I can give an estimate in Russian from Ineta !!!


            Come on, colleague! Waiting for the studio at least proper analysis "K" for de Marr on all four shots at Baden.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. +1
                22 February 2019 20: 22
                That’s why I’ll ask you a colleague for the third time,


                and for the fourth time I’ll answer that NONE of the Russian-speaking sources gave a normal description of the shelling of Baden, while Vinogradov flaunts so strange sometimes translations of incomprehensible texts that I’m just in shock

                This will increase your credibility.


                Thank you)
                And still:
                Come on, colleague! I'm waiting in the studio for at least a correct analysis of "K" for de Marr for all four shots at Baden.
                tongue

                And to be honest, I specifically cite the original, so that my conclusions from it could be checked and, if I went too far, criticize.

                Of course, I can immediately give the final calculation data, but then it will be a monologue, not a dialogue, and I need my arguments to be understood and verified.
                Hope for understanding hi drinks
                1. 0
                  22 February 2019 20: 32
                  Andrei
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  and for the fourth time I’ll answer that NO ONE Russian-speaking source gave a normal description of the shelling of Baden,

                  What do you want to hear? The information that is present in the Russian-language segment gives an adequate picture for the perception of the results of the shelling of "Baden" request
                  THIS IS USING US!
                  If you want to improve the quality of information with your links to English texts, then this is unpromising, for the native speaker has enough information in his language Yes

                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  And to be honest, I specifically cite the original so that my conclusions from it can be verified and, if I go too far, criticize

                  Believe me, my aunt speaks English to the best of my ability and the technical details for her are such difficulties as for me climbing the Chomolungma. Morality - do not complicate the process of perception
                  Yes
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  Of course, I can immediately issue the final calculation data, but then it will be a monologue,

                  Try hard wink For if I start giving info in Polish, it will not be easier for anyone feel
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  but I need my arguments to be understood and verified.

                  "Keep it simple - and people will reach out to you" feel
                  I repeat - the percentage of fans of checking and translating your data in Basurman is rapidly approaching zero. People are more likely to rush to check the Old in Russian than in the Aglitsky ... hi
                  1. 0
                    22 February 2019 20: 36
                    People are more likely to rush to check the Old in Russian than in the Aglitsky ...

                    I’ll try, but again: there is no such information in Russian,
                    Sammeri will give and analysis in Russian, too, be patient)

                    Threat. let's in polish. no problem.
  14. -1
    22 February 2019 19: 35
    "We consider armor penetration" laughing -Is it not destiny to look at the tools in the normative documents? -It is necessary to read or cite the data of the same "readers"?
    1. +2
      22 February 2019 19: 47
      Quote: Bone1
      and look in the normative documents on the guns, not fate?

      Take a look and bring a simpler bardzo :))) Then try to bring them to a common denominator in as such data from different countries will not be comparable.
      You even could not master the beginning of the article, but already give me advice
      1. -1
        22 February 2019 19: 49
        Well, consider it, work hard (just like shooting accuracy, without shooting tables) laughing
        1. +2
          22 February 2019 20: 24
          Quote: Bone1
          Well, consider it, work hard

          Kostya, when I need your advice - I will ask you for it
          1. -2
            22 February 2019 20: 40
            Better not ask, you still won’t understand.
        2. +2
          22 February 2019 20: 42
          Konstantin! there are alternative proposals - come on. I may also often strongly disagree with the respected author, but I try to confirm this with a scan of an archival document, calculations, or at worst with a very authoritative author such as Lacroix or Friedman. In the most extreme - a reference to something like Naval Vipons. "Criticizing - suggest ..."
          1. +1
            22 February 2019 20: 56
            Well, you don’t agree with the author in particular — but I, basically, having no initial basic information, is simply naive to analyze something — what can I offer? —To get basic information — or continue to count how many devils fit on the tip of the needle.
            1. 0
              22 February 2019 21: 14
              Konstantin, look above, for each post I try to give a couple of pages of information from the original documents of the time, with which I fully support you, that before drawing conclusions in the articles, you need to give the scans of the primary ones, on the meringues of which they are made, and also attach appropriate calculations - help, I will be grateful, ready to try to calculate any normal artillery source hi
              1. 0
                22 February 2019 21: 31
                We seem to speak different languages ​​- we need to provide "firing tables" and "manual" for the weapon - and there is no need for any "corresponding calculations" and "try to shortcut".
                1. +1
                  22 February 2019 21: 43
                  it is necessary to provide "firing tables" and "manual" for the weapon

                  Question 1. Is there armor penetration?
                  question 2. where to get shooting tables for, for example, "Pennsylvania"?
                  Question 3. I have copies of test reports, why are you not happy with a copy of the original document? type:


                  Question 4. Why do I think it is wrong?
                  Question 5. Do you know how the tables and manuals of that time were compiled? There, most of the values ​​are calculated according to the same formulas as I also have. Current they are outdated a little.

                  Best regards, hi
                  1. 0
                    22 February 2019 22: 13
                    I’ll try on points (I’ll omit the text of your questions for brevity) -1-but they aren’t there? -Actually? -No one bothered? -And how did you choose weapons and armor? 2-for the rest (except for Pennsylvania), apparently you have it? 3 it is necessary to analyze 4 I did not say that I do not trust your knowledge of arithmetic 5 before you know, you need to see them, and if they were not compiled according to practical tests, but calculations using formulas are worthless.
                    1. +3
                      23 February 2019 12: 25
                      Quote: Bone1
                      1-and they are not? -In general? -No one bothered?

                      Surprise :)))) At your leisure, take ANY tool manual and find armor penetration there. When you find me a pie. But I warn you right away - I saw a lot of manuals, but armor penetration ....
                      As for the shooting tables, there is no armor penetration and cannot be by definition, this is a document completely for other tasks.
                      From which, in principle, it is obvious that you have not seen either one or the other
                      Quote: Bone1
                      if they were compiled not according to the results of practical tests, but to calculations according to the formulas, they are worth a penny.

                      Well, but the artillerymen of the whole world somehow disagree with you
                      1. 0
                        24 February 2019 12: 37
                        Everything is very simple. Shooting tables - chipboard, applications with armor penetration - secret, for example, for pedantic Germans during WWII applications looked something like this:





                        Now, dear opponents will tell you what’s here and why) they outline them from morning till night
                      2. +2
                        24 February 2019 17: 45
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Shooting Tables - Particleboard, Armored Penetration Applications - Secret

                        Well, I admit, you're right, but I'm wrong :)))) I climbed into my tables to check - in some places I found data on armor penetration, as I had not noticed before - it’s incomprehensible to the mind feel
                        For 152-m howitzers-guns 1937 g calculated by the formula of Jacob de Marr laughing K-2400
                      3. +1
                        24 February 2019 18: 06
                        This is a small and absolutely insignificant exception) In the generally accepted form of shooting tables, there should be no data on armor penetration (well, laughing there they are according to de Marr K = 2400, so as not to reveal to the enemies the real value of K)

                        I just really want some comrades who are clever about the primary documents to show guides and tables with exhaustive real data on armor penetration not for common weapons (otherwise I’ll hang Tigerfibel’s scan now), but for naval artillery systems, where all these the data is at least just secret, if not completely secret, and is printed in a very limited number of copies: I’m talking about 380-mm, I think you can’t get it, they all sank with the Bismarck and Tirpitz, so there is only about 283 -mm from pickpockets
  15. +2
    23 February 2019 10: 53
    Good morning, dear colleagues!

    Thank you for the complaints to the administration about the "flood" in the form of excessive citation of archival documents.
    Until warnings for the flood are canceled, no one else will receive a single document from me here.

    Retell further to each other crooked translations, or even simply the tales of domestic "would-be historians".
    So you will feel more competent, probably.

    I am simply ready to tactfully note that, unlike foreign language sources, your "factual base", to put it mildly, does not at all stand up to the analysis of calculations.
    1. 0
      23 February 2019 12: 20
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      Thank you for the complaints to the administration about the "flood" in the form of excessive citation of archival documents.

      Andrei, I don’t think that someone complained about you, but there are rules for writing comments that prohibit making them from one copy-paste. The moderators here are quite strict, so ...
    2. 0
      23 February 2019 15: 33
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      Thank you for the complaints to the administration about the "flood" in the form of excessive citation of archival documents.


      Andrei, what is the point of this, each voices his point of view.

      In general, you want to arrange a championship for retelling Wikipedia, good luck!


      There are many sources, somewhere there is a need to pay for documents, somewhere you can get them for free, but several copies. There will be no Wikipedia retelling championship for this.
      1. 0
        23 February 2019 15: 41
        There will be no Wikipedia retelling championship for this.


        laughing that is, you won’t write at all?

        Well, good luck) that's what I noticed that even the well-known ADM about the shelling of "Baden" in full, no one except me got it

        Then hi
        1. +1
          23 February 2019 16: 20
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          that's what I noticed that even the well-known ADM about the shelling of "Baden" in full, no one except me got it


          Andrey, I hope that you will understand me correctly. On this site there were already people who wrote that they are the only owners of the document, others wrote that they need to be listened to "like God" since they are the only ones who know the truthful information on a particular topic. Maybe you should try looking for other documents that give a slightly different perspective on these tests?
          1. +1
            23 February 2019 19: 20
            Andrey, I hope that you will understand me correctly.


            Colleague, I understand you correctly. Moreover, I many times explained the history of my appearance on this site: many years ago I quit writing a book, I want to discuss individual thoughts from it with knowledgeable people in order to improve the quality of the final product. So I will be glad to any criticism.

            they are the sole owners of the document


            A lot of forums have actually ceased to exist. 10 years ago I downloaded the same ADM in tons - I don’t want to, but now there are much more books in the jump, and the primary documents have almost disappeared from the network. Unfortunately, I have big complaints against some authors of some Russian-language monographs, both in completeness and in the correctness of the descriptions, and it’s hard to discuss and verify with the primary documents - there are few people who need it. I really hope that TopVar will help correct the existing disastrous situation.

            Maybe you should try looking for other documents.


            To be honest, I’ve been looking for a colleague for more than 10 years. I didn’t find anything better. If anyone has rare and important documents, write what to change cognac for and where to send it by mail)

            you need to listen "like a god"


            before there were forums where the most authoritative comrades "agreed", for example, like this:
            Tradition of describing "Beden" number 1: Campbell gives descriptions of the decks of "Baden" on the basis of S. Goodall's report on his survey, but the cunning British designer, listing in detail the thickness of the armor, forgets to indicate the thickness of the shirts, which is critical for horizontal armor = wrong
            Tradition of describing "Beden" number 2: based on Breuer, the horizontal sections of Baden's decks have a shirt, the thickness of which is supposedly 10 mm = authority and Breuer's drawings are recognized as the most significant
            Tradition of describing "Beden" number 3: based on the design assignment, etc. "Baden" and the two previous series of battleships should have had 30-mm armor + 30-mm non-armored deck = recognized as less likely, but not refuted by any original document and does not contradict any kind of possible calculations
            Total: we count "30 plus 10", comrades decided

            If it doesn’t work out differently, who is also bothering on TopVar. feel
            It is clear that a hypothesis is all the same, but the hypothesis will be generally accepted)
  16. 0
    23 February 2019 11: 08
    And again, dear colleagues!

    Let's think about how to work without sources, like



    or



    which you are now ....

    In general, you want to arrange a championship for retelling Wikipedia, good luck!

    Then hi
  17. +1
    23 February 2019 12: 01
    Andrey, L. Sobolev's novel "Overhaul" describes a fictitious Russian battleship "Generalissimo". And this battleship had such beauty:
    “The Generalissimo was proud of these masts, its officers, the navy and the last cadet who bought postcards for the warships of the Russian Imperial Navy were proud of these masts. These were huge lattice towers of spirally twisted steel pipes, screwed into the sky by a powerful corkscrew to a height of seventeen fathoms and grabbed by ten round rings thick per person each, - two life-size Alexander columns, set on the deck. Were proud of them because they were an exact copy of the trellised masts of American dreadnoughts, and because none of the decrepit ships of the Russian fleet had such beauty, and because their complex outline, reminiscent of the Eiffel Tower, spoke of the last word of naval technology: the towers were crowned with heavy mars, where the central aiming of all large guns, facilitating shooting. But with the central aiming something went wrong from the very beginning, and they spat on it. The masts remained for fear of enemies and consolation of friends, magnificent and unprecedented, adding to the "Generalissimo" even more formidable majesty ... "

    Do not enlighten me if there was something like that at Sevastopol, at least in the project?
    1. +2
      23 February 2019 17: 40
      Quote: Slug_BDMP
      And this battleship had such beauty:

      I had, but as you understand, this is a description of the masts of "St. Andrew the First-Called" and "Emperor Paul 1." In general, Sobolev in the description mixed two types of battleships - "Andrei" and "Sevastopoli", and he clearly did it on purpose. Author's arbitrariness, here he is completely in his own right.
      Quote: Slug_BDMP
      Do not enlighten me if there was something like that at Sevastopol, at least in the project?

      In the projects - there was, and even at a rather late stage, there is a drawing dated February 17 1911
      1. +1
        23 February 2019 19: 32
        Thanks. I didn't even think about "Andrey".
  18. -1
    23 February 2019 20: 52
    "We consider armor penetration" laughing-and look in the normative documents on the guns-not destiny? -It is necessary to count or provide data of the same "readers"?

    I think that we must join the position of the bone1. Although Andrei’s labor costs can be respected by those readers who don’t understand a damn thing about creating models of technology. The bottom line is, why on earth does Andrei take anything to count? Because he can make big mistakes. And by the way - admits, because even the data on the shelling of Baden interpreted by him completely wrong. But this Kostya1, in turn, is also trying to deceive everyone. The fact is that Andrei is guilty of trying to build all his calculations only on secondary information - that is, data published in the open literature, instead of going into the archives and opening the initial documents about the verification shelling of the armor of these guns. Andrew cites his excuse that he is far from the archives. But then let him read those who bring strictly archival data. And his opponent, Bumblebee, also publishes extremely interesting information - but his texts are also secondary! And where are the primary archival documents - who saw them? Why thousands of history buffs who have visited the archives before us did not publish this information: Is this absolutely interesting to none of you? Or is all this cruelly classified?
    1. 0
      23 February 2019 23: 05
      where are the primary archival documents - who saw them?


      I have scans, for example, the ADM of the description of firing in Baden, the ADM of the description of the Hood’s armor test, for the rest, alas, the current is secondary, albeit very authoritative. I began to spread them here. The moderators deleted, as some forum users complain that they do not understand their content. I won’t give anything to anyone else - I don’t want to ban.

      So please just convert de Marr's formula to the following:
      relative efficiency = impact velocity in m / s x (mass kg to the power of 0,5)) / ((caliber in dm to the power of 0,75)

      Assumptions: at a distance of about 75 cable, the ballistic coefficient and the path angle are taken to be rounded equal for all three shells laughing wink
      1. 0
        23 February 2019 23: 24
        descriptions firing in Baden, ADM
        descriptions
        Hood’s armor tests, for the rest, alas, the current is secondary,

        Dear A. Shmelev, I personally have no complaints about you. on the contrary - thank you for your work (as well as Andrei from Chelyabinsk). But still, you and A. from Ch are deceiving the rest as if you were supposedly aware. That is, you write that you personally do not have the primary data, and you commit an implicit deception that someone else has such data! But you all must understand that after those events almost a hundred years have passed, and someone from history buffs would have published the primary data on the armor penetration of guns! So do not you bother to explain why this data has not yet been published?
        1. 0
          23 February 2019 23: 39
          So do not you bother to explain why this data has not yet been published?


          belay

          But, for example, how do you like this:



          primary archival document, and even with copyright notes)

          That is, you write that you personally do not have the primary data, and you commit an implicit deception that someone else has such data!


          I have personally little by little Yes, what is the problem?

          in addition, there are calculation methods that allow even approximately, but try to evaluate something when the primary data is not enough,
          when I don’t have an authoritative source, I write like that,
          when I have the calculated data, I also write
          but against ADM scans, IMHO, there should be no objections
          1. -1
            25 February 2019 22: 57
            So do not you bother to explain why this data has not yet been published?

            Andrei Shmelev: where is all this data, at least, just secret, if not completely secret,

            Here! Here! I thank you for confessing this deception! That is, all such data SECRET!"
            True, many stupid readers will exclaim right away: after all, And Shmelev brought a natural photograph of the document for checking Had’s armor - what’s the lie here?
            I answer: there are exceptions to any rule. And the only question is what is the rule: total secrecy or vice versa - the rule is that the published data on Hood is the rule? No! This is an exception to the rule!
            The fact is that if you remember, the fate of Hood was such that he died literally right away - almost from the first shot. And then a gigantic scandal arose in English society - why was such a large ship broken down and died instantly? And the English admiralty had to make excuses, and only for the sake of this, publish data on a test shelling of Hood's armor. And so - basically the vast majority of artillery data is tightly classified! And note - without any benefit - because even in those days battleships very rarely fought with each other, and in our time rockets dominate and only a madman can imagine that a battle will take place between battleships. But why then should the state keep secret the data of ancient weapons? And in my opinion, it’s only because the majority of verification artillery shellings of armored plates were purely fictitious - that is, they were carried out from very short distances - to exclude the influence of precession and nutation.
            And the fact that A Shmelev provided data on the shelling of Baden and Chesma is again a lie that there are supposedly no secrets. In fact, the shelling of Baden is a trophy ship, which is not a sin to declassify. And in addition - fire was also fired at him from an extremely small distance - in order to exclude the influence of precession and nutation.
            And according to Chesme - many readers also do not know the truth. The fact is that after the revolution, German troops entered Sevastopol and seized documents - in particular, on the explosion of Empress Maria and Chesme, and probably published them. That's why Andrei Shmelev trumps these documents - supposedly there are no secrets. And even more so, the deception is that the shelling of Chesma was carried out from a distance of 3 cables - in order to exclude the influence of precession and nutation.
            1. 0
              25 February 2019 23: 21
              And in my opinion, it’s only because the majority of verification artillery shellings of armored plates were purely fictitious - that is, they were carried out from very short distances - to exclude the influence of precession and nutation.


              "Suggest when criticizing, but do when proposing": give the studio the calculations of corrections for all of the above, as well as for another fifty factors, including the phase of the moon.

              the vast majority of artillery data is tightly classified


              Sometimes they were published in the press. for example, previously posted in other topics data from the "Marine Bulletin" on Russian and Japanese guns of the RYAV times from 152 mm to 305 mm. Americans for Pennsylvania published actual data in general in the magazine)
              Below, if you look, are scans of the chipboard document from 1935 with the British vulnerability assessment "Pennsylvania" and I have many more, such as:



              Only yes, when they did the term of secrecy they set about 50 years. Then they were super interesting and very secret. Now you can get them, but you need to delve into the archives, the Russians and the British delve around the WWII. For Americans and Japanese, the times of WWII are much worse.

              Maybe it’s not reptilians who are dirty, but historians are lazy? Or someone google breaking?
        2. +1
          24 February 2019 00: 17
          and someone from history buffs would publish primary data on the armor penetration of guns


          it's like this:



          just send a scan of the TEXTBOOK:



          first we google a little, learn the materiel, and only then we accuse me of covering up a reptilian conspiracy to conceal the results of the shooting at the "excluded ship number 4" lol
  19. 0
    23 February 2019 23: 35
    Question to Andrei from Ch and Andrei Shmelev: do you really not notice the deception that was carried out in the experience of shelling Baden and the fictitious results of calculating the armor penetration of Andrei from Ch?
    The fact is that any projectile at the end of its trajectory experiences angles of deviation: the so-called angles of precession and nutation? And without taking these angles into account, only stupid people can believe in any calculation of armor penetration. That is exactly your calculation. But foolish artillerymen of past times knew what tricks precession and nutation throw out. Therefore, they tried to deceive even themselves and did not take it into account. And for this they fired at targets from fictitious distances. That is, they shot at the Chesme target ship from a distance of only 3 cable and probably from the same distance in Baden. And to simulate the angle of inclination of the projectile trajectory - just created a roll of Baden 11 degrees. And this is a complete fiction test of armor penetration! Because, for example, nutation raises the nose of the projectile up and then the rebound from horizontal armor improves many times! And in this experiment, the shell left a large hole after the rebound, which in real shooting could not be! And when shells hit vertical armor, precession also worsens armor penetration. Therefore, all the calculations of Andrey from Ch are a complete deception, since he does not take into account the precession.
    1. 0
      23 February 2019 23: 49
      The fact is that any projectile at the end of its trajectory experiences angles of deviation: the so-called angles of precession and nutation?


      This is obvious to anyone interested.

      And without taking these angles into account, only stupid people can believe in any calculation of armor penetration.


      Any calculation of armor penetration is approximate. This is also obvious. If you read my comments more closely, you will see something like the following:

      Offhand I’ll say that in the discussions on armor penetration I have limitations:
      1. Not everything can be counted. For example, there is no calculation method: 381-mm "Greenboy" with 80 cables versus 250-mm upper belt "Baden" with a jacket + bulkhead + coal of the upper pit + deck + armored deck with a jacket (no method is designed to take into account the damage of the projectile qualitatively when breaking through such a number of obstacles). Here I will simply write that in my life I will not believe in defeat by an explosion, and I will stop there.
      2. It is not for nothing that the "de Marr dependence" has been transformed into a dozen different formulas (conversion factors are a tricky thing).
      Therefore, I am not ready to assert that "due to the absolute coefficient of armor quality of 0,95" at the 127-mm roof of the Hood tower, 381-mm Greenboy "due to the absolute quality coefficient of the projectile 1,020" begins to penetrate with a probability of a gap of 90 % certainly, starting from 136 cable wassat. (IMHO, it's not so much Nathan Okun himself who goes too far, but his followers)
      I carefully write that the generally accepted calculation methods, in my opinion, exclude the penetration of the 381-mm "Greenboy" of the 127-mm roof of the "Hood" tower from a distance of less than 120 cables with an armored explosion. Which agrees very well with all the authoritative information available, right down to Beatty's opinion that 25000mm is needed for quality protection from 152 yards (Greenboy is not capable of breaking a slab of this thickness under these conditions, even without penetration).


      As the saying goes, "offer criticism, and do offer". Let's give your solution)

      And then I, too, can long and reasonably persuade, for example, over Einstein, but I can’t only offer an alternative wassat

      So, colleague,
      As the saying goes, "offer criticism, and do offer".
  20. +2
    24 February 2019 19: 50
    Recalculation of 635 kg of the projectile gives a very insignificant correction - the ballistic calculator showed that at a distance of 75 cables, having an angle of incidence of 10,82 degrees. and the speed "on the armor" of 533,2 m at (K) equal to 2, an American shell pierces the armor of the First World War era, 000 mm thick, that is, significantly more than its own caliber!


    Something my skiing does not go. The Nabal Vpons data is as follows:
    8.2 degrees 14,000 yards (12,800 m) 1,595 fps (485 mps) 11.4
    With 75 cable speeds, "on the armor" 533,2 m is how? With an enlarged camera from Mark 8?


    But by setting the coefficient (K) for American 680-kg shells at 2 000, that is, bringing the quality of armor to the era of the First World War, we get armor penetration at 75 mm, that is, higher than that of the British and German fifteen-inch guns!


    Something my skis do not go again. Where from 680 kg?
    But setting the coefficient (K) for American 635 kg shells at the level of 2, that is, bringing the quality of armor protection to the era of the First World War, for a distance of 000 cables we get armor penetration by no means more than 75 mm.
    1. 0
      24 February 2019 21: 49
      Colleague Shmelev, as already written, I am not at all competent in the subject of armor penetration, only in navweaps I look at times ...)))
      But here is the question to the same place (NW) is given:
      for Amer. guns 14 "/ 45 Mark1-5 (635kg; 792/835? Mps) - at 14630m - 226mm Harvey (?!)
      for later Mark 8-12 (680kg; 792mps) - at 17190m- 356mm
      and from the table of the author (680kg shell, some kind of Krupp)) - at 14630m - 307mm
      What, site errors?
      1. +2
        24 February 2019 22: 40
        Good afternoon, dear colleague! To be honest, I think so:
        The Mark 1 gun and the Mark 8 Pennsylvania shell of the PMV - initial speed, IMHO, 792 m / s and the mass of the shell 635 kg
        the value of the initial velocity of 835 m / s - for the extended chamber, which then was not = do not take
        shell weight of 680 kg - for an expanded chamber, which then was not = do not take

        Further we understand (the numbers are slightly rounded):

        de Marr’s calculations based on data provided by the author:
        the quality of the projectile is taken equal to the quality of the projectile Baden
        distance 75 cables, penetration of a Pennsylvania projectile without detonation capability through 320 mm of Baden armor

        de Marr’s calculations based on the Berkalov-Gobar relationship:
        projectile quality through comparison with Greenboy
        distance 75 cables, penetration of a Pennsylvania projectile without detonation capability through 300 mm of Baden armor
        I think that the Berkalov-Gobar relationship is almost always underestimated in comparison with the fact

        feishard calculations:
        distance 75 cables, penetration of a Pennsylvania projectile without detonation capability through 335 mm of Baden armor
        I think that the "facehard" calculations are almost always overestimated in comparison with the fact, since they give more than 400 mm for "Greenboy", which is very unlikely, therefore I mentally always reduce them by 6-10 percent

        Then an average result is expected: a distance of 75 cables, penetration of a Pennsylvania projectile without detonation capability through 305-320 mm of Baden's armor (13,7 km)

        I have a version, but I can’t prove it with documents: the Mark 8 shell had several modifications (in my opinion 4), while its armor-piercing cap and cowl changed to improve.
        Theoretically, we can assume this: the "Harvey" of the Americans of that time approximately corresponded to the "Krupp" (sounds crazy, but it was found on the forums), the ballistic coefficient of the Mark 8 type 1 was so terrible, and the cap was so bad that these are real results of 1916 on armor approximately equivalent to the Kaiser's armor. Then things went on the mend, but, IMHO, against the vertical armor of current competitors = not strength.
        1. 0
          25 February 2019 10: 12
          ..the Mark 8 type 1 ballistic coefficient was so terrible and the cap is so bad that it real 1916 Armored Results ...

          Yes colleague Shmelev, I think that is so (226mm), but it’s good that you confirm.
          the Mark 8 shell had several modifications (in my opinion 4)

          Yes, they are listed there (AP Mark 8 Mods 3, 7, 8 and 11 - 1,402 lbs. (635.9 kg) and maybe all of them are not very ...)) Mark 8 weighing 680 kg is not there!
          I guess the table for Marks 8, 9, 10 and 12 is WRONGLY titled again "Armor Penetration with AP Mark 8", this is not shown for these guns (there is AP Mark 16 Mods 1 to 11 - 1,500 lbs. (680.4 kg) AP Mark 20 Mod 1 - 1,500 lbs. (680.4 kg)
          I think this is a banal copy-paste error (the title is the same as for the previous one). A few years ago the site took a long time (more than a year) and was tedious to manually transfer to a new design by copy-paste ... During this there were pages of the new and old design)) Then there were a lot of such errors.
          1. 0
            25 February 2019 10: 14
            Good morning! Yes, I think, when transferring values, the pages for Mark 1 and Mark 8 are a little messed up good
  21. 0
    25 February 2019 00: 23
    All the same, it’s going to be garbler like this:

    Register No. TD 151/35
    Remarks on the protection of Capital Ships
    FA Buckley [...]
    DTSD for D. of TD
    2.8.35 2.8.35

    I warn you right away, the 1935 document:

    [/ Center]

    so it saw the British admiralty then
  22. 0
    25 February 2019 00: 26
    All the same, it’s going to be garbler like this:

    Register No. TD 151/35
    Remarks on the protection of Capital Ships
    FA Buckley [...]
    DTSD for D. of TD
    2.8.35 2.8.35

    I warn you right away, the 1935 document:



    so it saw the British admiralty then
  23. 0
    27 February 2019 17: 57
    As always an interesting article.