"Standard" battleships of the USA, Germany and England. American "Pennsylvania". H. 2

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We will start this article with a little work on the bugs: in a previous article on the main caliber of the battleship Pennsylvania, we indicated that the device providing a small delay during a volley (0,06 sec) between the shots of the extreme and central guns was first installed on American battleships in 1918. But in fact, this happened only in 1935: the Americans really were able to reduce the dispersal of main-caliber projectiles in 1918 by double salvo shooting, but achieved this by other means, including m initial velocity of the projectile.

How did the American battleships shoot? Dear A.V. Mandel, in his monograph "US Battleships", gives a detailed description of two such episodes, and the first one is the test shooting of the battleship Nevada for 1924-25. (more precisely, one of the test shooting). Judging by the description, during this period of time the Americans used the progressive shooting training system, which, as far as the author of this article knows, was first used by the Germans before the First World War. As you know, the classic naval artillery exercise is shooting at a shield, but it has one serious drawback: the shield cannot be towed at high speed. Thus, shooting at a shield is always shooting at a very low-speed target.



The Germans decided this question cardinally. They conducted training shooting at the real goal, for the battleships usually used high-speed cruiser. The idea was that the battleship artillerymen determined the data for firing at a real high-speed ship (the cruiser usually went at 18-20 speed knots), but at the same time adjusted the horizontal pointing angle so that the volleys lay not on the cruiser, but in several cables behind it . Thus, the ship simulating the target seemed to be out of danger, at the same time there were artillery observers on it, who recorded the fall of the volley of the practicing ship relative to the wake of the “target”. This, in fact, determined the effectiveness of the shooting.

Judging by the description of A.V. Mandel was exactly the way Nevada fired, with the target ship moving at 20 speed. 90 cabling is likely on the course. The word "probably" is used because the distinguished author indicates not meters, but meters (16 500 m), however, in English literature, as a rule, not meters, but yards are indicated, in this case the distance was only 80 cables. The shooting was supposed to start when the course angle on the target was 90 degrees, but the order to open fire came earlier when the target was on 57 degrees. and the first two battleships the battleship made during the ongoing reversal, which, in general, did not contribute to the accuracy of the shooting. In total, during the shooting, the battleship gave 7 volleys in 5 min. 15 seconds

After the first salvo, the turning mechanism of one of the towers failed, but apparently it was possible to “reanimate” the second salvo already, so there was no pass. However, the left cannon of the first turret missed the first and second salvo due to a failure in the electric trigger circuit. After the fifth salvo, a vertical drive failure of the 4 tower was fixed, but he was also put into operation and the tower continued to participate in the shooting. During the 6 salvo, the left gun of the third turret gave a pass due to a defective fuse, and in the final 7 salvo, one gun fired with an incomplete charge (3 card instead of 4), and the vertical pickup drive failed again, now in tower No. 2.


Battleship Pennsylvania in 1925


A.V. Mandel writes that such faults were a rare case, and moreover, on the Nevada they were quickly corrected during the shooting, but it is not easy to agree with the respected author. If we were talking about some unscheduled maneuvers, or shooting, which took place shortly after it was put into operation, when many mechanisms still need to be improved, then this could somehow be understood. But after all, the date of test shooting is known in advance, and the crew and the materiel are being prepared for it - and, in spite of all this, such an abundance of small failures. We will notice, failures as a result of our own firing only, and what would have happened if “Nevada” had been in combat and had been exposed to large-caliber projectiles of the enemy?

As we said earlier, the American battleships fired full volleys, and with three passes, the Nevada launched 7 shells for 67 volleys, one of which obviously could not hit the target, since it was released with an incomplete charge. But this is not a breakdown of the equipment, but an error of the loaders who did not report one cap to the chamber, so we have no reason to exclude this projectile from the general result of the shooting.

The first four volleys laid a covering, but there were no hits; on the 5, observers counted one hit on the battleship, and two more hits on the 6 and 7 shots. And the total 5 hits on 67 spent shells, respectively, the accuracy was 7,46%.
A.V. Mandel calls such accuracy an outstanding result, citing the fact that the famous Bismarck showed less accuracy during the battle in the Danish Strait. But such a comparison is completely incorrect. Yes, indeed, Bismarck spent 93 shells in that battle, having achieved three hits in the Prince of Wells and at least one in Hood. It is possible that the Bismarck gunners achieved a greater number of hits in the dead British cruiser, but even considering the minimum, we get that the Bismarck showed an accuracy of 4,3%. This, of course, is lower than the Nevada indicator in the shootings we described above. But it should be taken into account that the American battleship fired at one target following the same course, while the Bismarck fired successively at two different ships, so it required a second fire, and, accordingly, an increased consumption of shells for it. In addition, during the battle the English ships maneuvered and getting into them was much more difficult. Also, one must not forget that Nevada shot at 90 cables, and in the Danish Channel the battle started at 120 cables and, possibly, Bismarck destroyed Hood before the distance between these ships decreased to 90 cables. There is still some doubt that the visibility during the battle in the Danish Strait was as good as at the Nevada firing: the fact is that the Americans sought to conduct their training firing in clear, good weather so that without interference watch the falls of volleys of training ships. It is interesting that in the United States there were opponents of such "preferential" combat training, but their objections were usually countered by the fact that in the tropical regions of the Pacific Ocean, where, according to admirals, they had to fight the Japanese fleetSimilar visibility was the norm.

But the main objection of A.V. Mandela lies in the fact that, as a rule, in combat, the accuracy of shooting is reduced severalfold or even by several orders of magnitude relative to that achieved in pre-war shooting. So, at the beginning of 1913, in the presence of the first lord of the Admiralty, the battleship "Thanderer" adjusting the shooting at a range of 51 KB. using the latest at the time of the fire control devices has achieved 82% hits. But in the battle of Jutland, the 3-I squadron of battlecruisers, fighting for the 40-60 cable course, achieved only the 4,56% of hits and this was the best result of the Royal Navy. Of course, the “Nevada” shot in much more difficult conditions and long range, but still its 7,46% score does not look too good.

In addition, I would like to draw attention to the fact that the first 4 volley, although laid down as a cover, but did not give hits - of course, there is any persistent feeling at sea that, despite measures to reduce dispersion, it remained with American battleships overly large. This is indirectly confirmed by the fact that the Americans did not stop at a double reduction in dispersion achieved by them in 1918, but continued to work in this direction and further.



The second shooting, described by A.V. Mandel produced the battleship New York in 1931. Despite the fact that ships of this type were equipped with two-gun turrets, in which the guns had an individual cradle, the ship achieved fairly moderate results when shooting at the cable cables 60: 7 hits for 6 volleys, or 11,67%. In comparison with the English pre-war shooting, it is not at all an indicative result, but, in fairness, we note that New York fired at a “conditional 20-nodal target” with a shift of the aiming point, the mechanism of which was described by us above, and not by the shield , and gave the first 4 volley on one target and the other three on the other.

In general, it can be stated that the accuracy of shooting American battleships raises questions even in the aftermath of the First World War, that is, after the US sailors "shook" the joint exercises with the British fleet, before that the results were obviously worse. No wonder that D. Beatty, who commanded the battlecruisers of the British, and later became the First Lord of the Admiralty, argued that for parity with the United States, England would have enough fleet, by 30% less than the American one.

But back to the design of the American three-gun turrets. In addition to placing the guns in one cradle and having only two projectiles and the same number of charging lifts for three guns, the American towers were also distinguished by another very unusual “innovation”, namely the placement of ammunition. On all the battleships of those years, the artillery cellars with shells and charges were located at the very bottom of the tower installation, under the barbet and defense of the citadel - but not in American ships! More precisely, their charge storages were located approximately in the same place as the European battleships, but shells ... The shells were stored directly in the towers and barbetts of the installations of the main caliber.


Interestingly, this diagram shows only the penultimate storage tier of shells, and in fact they were located above ...


55 shells were placed directly in the turret, including 22 - on the sides of the guns, 18 - at the rear wall of the turret and 18 - at the level of the loading tray. The main ammunition was stored on the so-called “shell of the turret” - it was at the level, as VN writes. Chausov "second ship" deck. What was meant here is not clear to the author of this article (was the forecastle deck taken into account?), But in any case it was located above the main armored deck, outside the battleship citadel. Up to 242 shells could be stored here (174 at the walls of the barbet and 68 in the reloading compartment). In addition, below, already within the citadel, there was still 2 backup storage: the first of them was located on the barbet section located under the main armored deck, there could be up to 50 projectiles, and 27 projectiles could be placed at the level of charge storage. These stocks were considered auxiliary, since the delivery of shells from the lower tier of the barbet and lower vault was extremely difficult and was not designed to ensure the normal rate of fire of the guns in battle.

In other words, in order to be able to use the standard ammunition in full (100 projectiles per barrel), it was necessary to have it partially in the turret, and partly on the projectile deck inside the barbet, but outside the citadel. The latter protected only the powder cellars.

Such a decision is extremely difficult to call rational. Of course, the American battleships had very good reservations for barbets and towers - a little running ahead, we note that the thickness of the three-bore 356-mm turret front plate was 457 mm, the side plates - 254 mm and 229 mm. The thickness went down towards the rear wall, which also had a thickness of 229 mm, the roof was 127 mm. At the same time, the barbet, up to the armored deck itself, consisted of monolithic armor with a thickness of 330 mm. Again, looking ahead, it can be noted that such protection justifiably claims, if not the best, then at least one of the best in the world, but it, alas, was not impenetrable: the English 381-mm "greenboy" was quite capable pierce armor of this thickness with 80 cables, or even more.

At the same time, the explosive D used by the Americans as an explosive, although it was not “chimozy,” was still ready to detonate at 300-320 degrees, that is, a strong fire in the American battleship tower is fraught with a powerful explosion.

All of the above does not allow us to consider the construction of tower 356-mm installations of battleships of the “Pennsylvania” type as successful. They are listed only 2 significant advantages: compactness, and good (but, alas, far from absolute) security. But these advantages were achieved at the expense of very significant shortcomings and the author of this article is inclined to think that the three-gun towers of the USA of those times are considered to be among the most unsuccessful in the world.

Mine Artillery

Pennsylvania-type battleships were supposed to protect 22 * 127-mm / 51 artillery systems from destroyers. And again, as in the case of the main caliber, formally, the anti-mine artillery of the battleships was very powerful, and seemed to be even one of the strongest in the world, but in practice it had a number of shortcomings that significantly reduced its capabilities.


127-mm / 51 cannon


The 127-mm / 51 gantry of the 1910 / 11 g model (developed in 1910 g., Adopted in 1911 g.) Was very powerful, it was able to send a projectile weighing 22,7 kg with an initial speed of 960 m / s. The firing range at the maximum elevation angle of 20 degrees was approximately 78 cables. At the same time, the gun was not re-forced, the resource of its trunk reached quite solid 900 shots. The armor-piercing and high-explosive shells had the same mass, but the content of the explosive in the armor-piercing was 0,77 kg, and in the high-explosive - 1,66 kg, while the explosive D was used as an explosive.

However, it is somewhat surprising that in almost all sources available to the author on US battleships, an armor-piercing projectile is described exclusively. Strictly speaking, this, of course, is not evidence that the high-explosive shells in the US battleship ammunition were missing, but ... and there are no indications that the guns were equipped with such projectiles. And, as we know, the Americans provided the main caliber of their battleships only with armor-piercing shells until the Second World War.

But even if we assume that the mine caliber "Pennsylvania" and "Arizona" initially received high-explosive shells, then it should be noted a very small amount of explosives in them. So, in the 120-mm / 50 instruments of the 1905 model used in the Russian fleet (Vikkers) in the 20,48 kg high-explosive shells mod. 1907 was 2,56 kg of trinitrotoluene, and in semi-sredneboyny shells arr. 1911 g weight 28,97 kg explosives reached 3,73 kg, that is, more than twice that of the American high-explosive projectile 127-mm / 51 guns! Yes, our gun was losing American in ballistics, having a much lower initial speed - 823 m / s for a lighter 20,48 kg projectile, and 792,5 m / s for 28,97 kg, but the effect of Russian shells on the destroyer target would be different more significant.

The next, and very significant, drawback of the American cannon is the cap-loading. Here, of course, we can recall that the 120-mm / 50 mentioned above also had a crank loader, but the whole question is that on Russian ships these tools were installed either in an armored casemate (Sevastopol-type battleships, armored cruiser “Rurik”), or even in the towers (“Flurry” monitors), but on American battleships, with their “all or nothing” booking scheme of 127-mm / 51, the mine-mine guns did not have armor. And this created certain difficulties in battle.

In repelling the attackers of the destroyers, the mine battery should have developed a maximum rate of fire (not to the detriment of accuracy, of course), but for this it was necessary to have a certain amount of projectiles and charges for 127-mm / 50 guns. These stocks were not covered with armor, and here the presence of the cartridges could give them at least some protection, the hope that if such a stock detonated from the effects of fragments or fire, then at least not completely. Again - to keep the calculations of unprotected guns during the battle linear forces did not make much sense, so that in the event of a fire, they could not quickly intervene and correct the situation.

"Standard" battleships of the USA, Germany and England. American "Pennsylvania". H. 2

The fire is mine caliber battleship "California"


In other words, it turned out that the Americans had to either lay out and leave unattended stocks of ammunition before the battle, risking fires and explosions, but still have the opportunity, if necessary, to cause calculations to the guns and immediately open fire. Or do not do it, but then to put up with the fact that in the event of a sudden threat of a mine attack quickly open fire will not work. At the same time, the situation was aggravated by the fact that the ammunition lifts could be damaged (outside the citadel) at the time of the attack of the destroyers, and in this case, the absence of an “emergency pool” of the guns would be completely bad.

In general, all of the above is, to a certain extent, true for casemate guns, but still the latter have not the best protection for cannons and their calculations, and are also capable of providing much better safety for ammunition from guns.

In addition to the foregoing, the mine batteries of battleships of the “Pennsylvania” type, although they had a slightly better position relative to the ships of the previous type, but remained very “wet”, subject to flooding. However, this flaw in those years was extremely common, so we will not blame the creators of ships of this type.

Fire control is another matter. In contrast to the main caliber, to which the “modern” centralized fire system “attached” to “Pennsylvania” and “Arizona,” differed somewhat in design from its British and German counterparts, but was generally quite effective, and, by some parameters, perhaps even surpassed For a long time, European MSAs and anti-mine caliber tools of centralized control did not have centralized control at all and were guided individually. True, there were officers of the fire control group, whose combat posts were located on the latticework masts bridges, but they gave only the most general instructions. Centralized control of anti-mine artillery fire appeared on American battleships only in 1918.

Anti-aircraft weapons

When the battleships entered service, the 4-caliber guns of 76-mm / 50 caliber were introduced. These guns were quite equivalent to many other guns of the same purpose, which appeared by that time on the battleships of the world. Anti-aircraft "three-inch" shot with a projectile weighing 6,8 kg with an initial speed of 823 m / s., The rate of fire could reach 15-20 lines per minute. When firing, unitary cartridges were used, and the maximum angle of elevation of the barrel reached 85 degrees. The maximum firing range (at an angle of 45 deg) was 13 350 m or 72 cable, the maximum reach in height - 9 266 m. Of course, these tools did not have a centralized control.

Torpedo armament

I must say that the torpedoes were not particularly popular in the US Navy. Assuming to lead their battles over the oceans, the American admirals did not consider it necessary to build in large numbers the destroyers and destroyers, in which they saw, essentially, coastal ships. This point of view changed only in the years of the First World War, when the United States embarked on the mass construction of ships of this class.

Such views could not affect the quality of American torpedoes. The fleet used 533-mm "self-propelled mines" manufactured by Bliss (the so-called "Bliss-Levitt"), various modifications of which were adopted by the 1904,1905 and 1906. However, all of them were inferior in their performance characteristics to European torpedoes, had a very weak charge, which consisted, moreover, of gunpowder rather than trinitrotoluene, and a very low technical reliability. The proportion of unsuccessful launches of these torpedoes in exercises reached 25%. At the same time, American torpedoes had a very unpleasant habit of sticking off the course, gradually turning to 180 degrees, while the US battleships usually operated in the wake direction: thus there was a hefty danger of hitting their own battleships following the ship that had fired the torpedo.

The situation improved somewhat with the adoption of the Bliss-Levitt Mk1915 torpedo in 9, which had a charge of 95 kg of TNT, although this was very small. The course range, according to some data, was 6 400 m at 27 knots., According to others - 8 230 m at 27 knots. or 5 030 m to 34,5 knots., length - 5, 004 m, weight - 914 or 934 kg. However, to say exactly what kind of torpedoes the battleships of the “Pennsylvania” type were equipped at the time of entry into service, the author of this article is not exactly known.

“Pennsylvania” and “Arizona” were equipped with two torpedo torpedo tubes located in the hull in front of the main-caliber bow towers. In general, such minimalism could only be welcomed if it were not for ... ammunition, which already had 24 torpedoes. At the same time, the width of the ship was not enough to ensure the loading from the end of the torpedo tube, which was the classic way: so the Americans had to come up with a side loading design that was extremely tricky (and extremely overstated by the British, who had the opportunity to inspect US torpedo tubes).

At this point we finish the description of the armament of the “Pennsylvania” type battleships and proceed to the “highlight” of the project - the reservation system.

To be continued ...
113 comments
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  1. +6
    2 February 2019 05: 19
    Dear Andrey, thanks for the article +!
    Informative and informative. I know little about the topic, so I just read it and shake it with a mustache :-)
    at the beginning of 1913, in the presence of the first Lord of the Admiralty, the battleship “Tanderer” adjusting the firing at a range of 51 kbt. Using the latest fire control devices at that time, I achieved 82% of hits.

    There was good progress there, a year earlier the same battleship from the 38 main-caliber shells hit eighteen.
    A couple of pictures in the subject.
    Pensylvania fires its main caliber, photo taken before 1920.
    1. +2
      2 February 2019 19: 56
      Thanks for the response, dear colleague!
      Photos, as always, wonderful :)))))
      Quote: Comrade
      There was good progress there, a year earlier the same battleship from the 38 main-caliber shells hit eighteen.

      Nuuu, then it still did not have a full SLA, and most importantly - the ship only went into operation in the middle of the 1912, it is difficult to expect a big effect from it - the crew has not yet completed combat training completely.
      In general, of course, the British fired at very favorable conditions. I like German training much more hi
  2. +7
    2 February 2019 05: 20
    "Pensylvania" at Leyte Bay, October 20, 1944
  3. +6
    2 February 2019 07: 40
    Um, placing shells directly in the tower and barbet raises questions. Given the fact that the Americans relied on good security and did not consider this to be a flaw, in terms of ensuring rate of fire at the initial stage of the battle, this decision seems (for Americans) to be correct. But, unlike the Germans and the British, who managed to break in their design decisions in a real battle, the Americans have deprived the heavens of such a run from the word altogether. Therefore, we can only discuss theoretically the correctness of a particular decision request But in battle, anything can happen: the distance can change, and the tactical situation and all sorts of force majeure can happen - because it is not necessary that the enemy can be exposed to fire with the thickest armor (the case of Zedlitz, when a shell hit the rear part of the tower is indicative). So the placement of ammunition in the tower and barbet from my personal point of view looks questionable ...
    The insecurity of the secondary battery is also not a plus. An attack by enemy destroyers can happen in the midst of a battle, and then finding the crews of 127mm guns practically without pants under a hail of (presumably) fragments from large-caliber shells exploding nearby does not add to the determination to fight. Even any armor that protects only from shrapnel gives a feeling of protection and psychologically positively affects the calculations ... Personally, I would not envy the calculations of the Pennsylvania secondary battery, if at the height of the Battle of Jutland, being under the fire of Scheer's battleships, it would also reflect the attack of destroyers (hypothetically, of course). But that's my personal opinion.
    Article plus! We look forward to continuing !! hi
    1. 0
      3 February 2019 00: 27
      PMK calculations would get an unforgettable experience while on deck while firing main guns (besides volley firing). Perhaps even lethal.
      1. 0
        3 February 2019 09: 06
        Quote: ecolog
        being on deck while firing main guns (besides volley firing)

        Here you are mistaken. Openly there were only two guns on the bow superstructure. All the rest were located in unarmored casemates, the maximum protection of which was an inch (25,4 mm) side skin ... Yes hi
    2. -1
      3 February 2019 09: 37
      The insecurity of the PMK is also not a plus. stop

      Colleague, you are just provoking me right now to squeeze my own post about booking "standards", I will not risk it, I will just tactfully note that the Americans considered the "inch side plating" BETTER protection of the secondary battery of battleships than, say, the same "inch side skin" + " armor of any realistically possible thickness "- this time.

      Inch plating of the side and even existing bulkheads = a serious anti-fragmentation obstacle, a long time ago I found detailed parameters and got that American shipbuilding steel is comparable to the IZ grade armor steel that was on Soviet pre-war tanks, that is, the "unprotected" calculations of 127-mm were armored in every way no worse than the crews of BT and T-26 (it is clear that an example of a curve, but this is for clarity), these are two.

      The Americans were counting on a daytime battle, were there many successful destroyer attacks against a convoy of battleships in DAY battles? Yes, and at night it’s not so that heaps - these are three.

      What would 200 (!!!) "smooth-decks" do for the Americans during the attack of the Japanese destroyers? So it was necessary to try very hard to bring the capabilities of the secondary battery of American battleships in combat conditions to a real test - that's four.
      1. +3
        3 February 2019 10: 16
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        that is, the "unprotected" crews of 127-mm were armored in every way no worse than the crews of the BT and T-26 (it is clear that an example of a curve, but this is for clarity), these are two.

        What a curve, yes wink For clarity, tanks with their resistance to bursts of MAXIMUM 152 mm shells (yes, inch armor will still save) are not worth it, the effect of a near gap 356 mm shell. Okay, if the shell exploded while still in the water and the fragments go along the outside of the side. And if the shell hits the battery? If it explodes inside the case? Carefully read the results of damage to ships under Jutland, then it will become clear to you what the PMK calculations were sentenced in real battle! You tell me about good steel, but the batteries of English and especially German ships were armored, unlike American ones.
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        The Americans were counting on a daytime battle, were there many successful destroyer attacks against a convoy of battleships in DAY battles? Yes, and at night it’s not so that heaps - these are three.

        Read the destroyer attacks in the battle of Jutland. I don't need to bend my fingers wink What you count on and reality are two completely different things!
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        What would 200 (!!!) "smooth-decks" do for the Americans during the attack of the Japanese destroyers? So before the real test of the capabilities of the secondary battery of American battleships in combat conditions, it was necessary to try very hard to bring - these are four

        Already funny. Once again I repeat - bending fingers and assumptions are fundamentally different from reality wink
        1. -1
          3 February 2019 10: 33
          But the batteries of English and especially German ships were armored, unlike the American. laughing
          see point one: when firing main battery battleships, "inch side plating" BETTER protection of secondary battery battleships than, say, the same "inch side plating" + "armor of any realistically possible thickness" - this time (there are a couple of nuances, let's analyze , in the comments when comparing all three standards).

          Read the destroyer attacks in the battle of Jutland.
          - I talked about SUCCESSFUL attacks, and not about attacks in general laughing

          Already funny.
          You, probably, a colleague, think that the Americans will be loaded with fuel and shells in "one way" and will sail immediately from the Panama Canal to merge in the Sea of ​​Japan? Or maybe they will still collect at least a hundred destroyers and step by step begin to "jump" around the islands? Something from WWII experience tells me that it is your assumptions that are not very real lol
          1. +1
            3 February 2019 10: 54
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            see point one: when shelling the main battery of battleships, "inch side plating" BETTER protection of secondary battery battleships than, say, the same "inch side plating" + "armor of any realistically possible thickness" - this time (there are a couple of nuances, we will analyze, I hope , in the comments when comparing all three standards)

            winked It is clear - 152mm-170mm armor casemates plus 25-30mm anti-fragmentation bulkheads inside the secondary battery of British and German battleships bullshit compared to 25mm "armor" and bulkheads made of ordinary steel American battleships request And the difference is that even though 152mm armor still breaks through and the gun is destroyed, 1 (one) gun is destroyed, and a large-caliber projectile that exploded in the "armored" steel battery of the "Pennsylvania" will cover at least several guns with a copper basin with a copper basin, along with the calculations should not ??? what Or will it argue that the Americans planned to fight long distances in broad daylight and that destroyers would not be able to attack ships in such conditions a priori? The third time I repeat that speculation, assumptions and reality are completely different things ....
            And since the Americans did not have such experience in military clashes as the Europeans, their worldview consists in the absolute neglect of even an adequate anti-fragmentation reservation for the PMK. Once again, I recommend reading the analysis of combat damage to ships after Jutland, in order to understand the importance of at least some thread of PMK booking.
            And after all, after a protracted battle at long distances, when everything on the American battleship that was on top of the citadel will be destroyed and destroyed after a series of large-caliber guns hit, darkness will begin to thicken as a result of evening, and enemy destroyers will appear on the horizon - the Yankees will remain with lowered pants laughing I wonder if the attack on the ship with the destroyed PMK battery will be successful? lol
            PS Turn on logic sometimes hi
            1. -1
              3 February 2019 11: 31
              It is clear - 152mm-170mm armor casemates plus 25-30mm anti-fragmentation bulkheads inside the secondary battery of British and German battleships bullshit compared to 25mm "armor" and bulkheads made of ordinary steel American battleships
              Yes sir! good
              Well, almost like that (let's analyze the nuances when comparing "standards", ok?)

              a large-caliber shell will cover at least several guns with a copper basin along with calculations.
              A couple guns can well be written off,
              but "at least a few guns " belay

              KEY question: WHAT exactly will the shells fire at Amer?
              Speed?
              The resulting angle?
              Caliber?
              Tip?
              The mass of the shell?
              The mass of explosives?
              Type BB?
              The location of the fuse?
              Type of fuse?
              Slowdown?

              will argue that Americans planned to fight long distances in broad daylight and destroyers a priori would not be able to attack ships in such conditions?
              Yes sir! good
              As the saying goes, "Didn't the Sevastopol wake-up teach you anything?"
              Yes, and at night you need to somehow get there wink
              In practice, it didn’t work out very well during Jutland.

              the importance of at least some thread booking PMK. laughing
              Reservation should be sufficient, not "any"

              when everything on the American battleship that was on top of the citadel will be destroyed and destroyed after a series of hits of large-caliber guns, winked
              then a battleship with a traditional protection scheme may have long been at the bottom laughing

              Ps Turn on sometimes hi logic
              1. +3
                3 February 2019 17: 32
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                then a battleship with a traditional protection scheme may have long been at the bottom of laughing

                If the German battlecruisers had American-style protection, the Lutzow, Derflinger, Seydlitz would not have survived until the main phase of the collision of the main forces. wink
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                Reservation should be sufficient, not "any"

                Any better than none at all wink
                The PMA calculations of German and English battleships have at least a ghostly chance to survive due to the availability of reservations, while the Americans have none ...
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                KEY question: WHAT exactly will the shells fire at Amer?
                Speed?
                The resulting angle?
                Caliber?
                Tip?
                The mass of the shell?
                The mass of explosives?
                Type BB?
                The location of the fuse?
                Type of fuse?
                Slowdown?

                It starts ... laughing My dear, not the Americans will choose what to shoot at the enemy, but the enemy. And if in the ammunition of the Congo, Fuso and Hiugi there were only armor-piercing shells made according to the model of the batch purchased from the British, then the Nagato ammunition was already full of high-explosive shells (even of two types!)
                Therefore, the danger to the unarmored ends of American "standard" battleships is quite tangible. And the Japanese most likely confused that the "all-or-nothing" scheme was not so ideal. So a couple of shells that will make holes in the bow or stern of American battleships will be enough to disrupt the combat stability of the ship in the line. And if these shells are also land mines from "Nagato", then your insinuations about the "resulting angle" or "location of the fuse" with "slowing down" are generally ridiculous. For the aforementioned German ships were saved by a thorough reservation, including the extremities (the "Luttsov" themselves were flooded due to the incompatibility of towing with the tactical situation). And believe me, the Japanese began to appear with high-explosive shells for a reason, because their same "Nagato" also had a reservation on the principle of "all or nothing" and in the place of the Japanese I would boldly use landmines in battle with the Yankees - concussion from the explosion large-caliber shells on the armored deck, even without breaking through it, will cause decent destruction, but if the shell also hits the unarmored sections of the side, then the enemy is in trouble.
                And if we recall the deep antiquity, then under Tsushima, Russian EBRs of the "Borodino" type went to the bottom with a whole armor belt wink
                Learn materiel and stop rummaging through your own assumptions wassat
                1. -2
                  3 February 2019 19: 17
                  sorry, colleague, you, as it were, are not offended, read at least Goncharov first

                  to start a small educational program:
                  a high-explosive shell from the time of the PMV pierces about 0,5 caliber upon impact (the combination of the impact energy of the main factor + explosion is an additional factor)

                  CONCLUSION ONE: 150 mm armor not protects against HE shells with a caliber of 343-381 mm, as well as 125 mm armor not defended the "compartment of Sevastopol" from 305-mm during experimental shooting
                  Protecting casemates with armor of the order of 200 mm is possible only strongly at the expense of the remaining qualities of the ship (especially the ocean)

                  so with the casemates you sat in a puddle fool

                  SECOND CONCLUSION: the Germans are not stupid and correctly installed on the Bayern a 200-mm belt for the protection of the extremities, since it was known to be guaranteed to protect against 305-mm land mines and, as it turned out, would perfectly cope with 343-356-mm land mines

                  I didn’t write about the fact that you don’t need to reserve the extremities, so, dear, you put forward a not very reasonable thought, attributed it to me, and then you yourself tried to humor this thought (unsuccessful, by the way, examples)

                  therefore, and here you sat in a puddle fool

                  If you, before challenging, sometimes read what you are going to dispute, you would probably see my words about "it would be interesting to look at amers under the fire of" Emperor Nicholas I ", that is, you spent a whole day trying to to myself to prove the correctness of my very first thought feel

                  well commendable, better late than never drinks
                  1. +2
                    3 February 2019 19: 40
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    so with the casemates you sat in a puddle

                    It all started with the fact that, in your opinion, the lack of reservation with the American casemates is much better than the presence of such a Europeans
                    I’ll just tactfully note that the Americans considered the "inch side skin" BETTER protection of the battleships' secondary battery than, say, the same "inch side skin" + "armor of any realistically possible thickness"

                    So? Therefore, in the further controversy it came to a comparison of the European differentiated protection with the American "all or nothing" reservation system. So? So.
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    that it’s not necessary to reserve the ends I didn’t write,

                    I do not argue, the reservation of the extremities (more precisely, the lack of it among the Americans) lies on the same plane as the reservation of casemates. Because it came out, as a result of the start of a dispute about the need for booking casemates. Need it or not, but
                    Around 16:20 [56] - 16:30 [57] between the two columns of battle cruisers the battle of destroyers began. Beatty ordered the attack at 16:09 [58], and Hipper at 16:14 [58]. On the German side, these were 11 destroyers of the 9th flotilla led by the cruiser Regensburg and four destroyers of the G-101 type [57] [59]. On the British side, 12 destroyers are part of the 13th and four destroyers of the 10th flotilla. The flagship of the 13th flotilla cruiser "Champion" shot almost all the ammunition at the beginning of the battle, and its support for the destroyers was ineffective. Confusion in the construction of the British destroyers brought the Nottingham cruiser, cutting their ranks [57] at 16:21 [60]. The destroyers were also under the fire of the middle artillery with line cruisers [56]. The main hostilities between them began at 16:30 and lasted 10-15 minutes [55]. The Germans fired ten torpedoes at 16: 33-16: 35, but not one of them reached the British battlecruisers. Of the British destroyers, Nestor and Nikator fired two torpedoes at the Lutz at 16:35, Petard fired two torpedoes at the Derflinger. None of the torpedoes also reached the goal, since the German cruisers abruptly turned away at 16:33 at 105 °, and then at 16:36 at 77 ° [61]. During the attack, the Germans lost V-29, which got hit by a torpedo, and V-27, which lost track due to the hit of two shells. He stood in the way of the 5th squadron and inevitably had to be destroyed. Therefore, the V-26 removed the crew from him and finished off with artillery fire. The British "Nomad" lost speed due to a shell in the engine room

                    This is a quote from the description of the Battle of Jutland. I specially highlighted the participation of the PMA in large print, so that it became clear to you that at that moment in time the battlecruisers were fighting with British heavy ships and the PMA crews participated in repelling the attack of the destroyers, while under fire from the enemy's main battery. The question is - what do you think, will the American crews take part in the battle just as cheerfully, being a bot protecting the side skin? Will the destroyers reach the line in broad daylight? Probably they will - it is proved by examples. And it is not worth pointing out to me that the armoring of the Bayern ends is correct (I already know that) - the Germans have consistently improved the quality of protection of their ships, unlike the Americans, about whom we are arguing. wink Some statements follow from others.
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    unsuccessful examples by the way

                    So prove on your own that the lack of protection of casemates is better than having it laughing laughing laughing
                    Well I'm already in a puddle - come on, but I'll see
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    I didn’t write about the fact that you don’t need to reserve the ends,

                    Didn't write, but you wrote about the fact that casemates without armor are better. And casemates without armor are an all-or-nothing sign, as well as extremities without armor. You will decide whether you are defending the American concept of booking or not tongue wink hi
                    1. 0
                      3 February 2019 20: 07
                      laughing
                      Я not I defend the American reservation system as an absolute truth (for the case under consideration, of course)

                      laughing
                      I tactfully hint that in some cases 25 mm steel (depending on the answers to my questions above) is more effective for preserving the PMC battleship than 125 mm: it holds fragments well, but, for example, it doesn’t cock a fuse of a half-piercing shell

                      laughing
                      ... armoring of extremities (more precisely, Americans lack it) lies on the same plane as booking casemates. belay with what a fright?

                      laughing
                      The question is, do you think that American calculations will participate as vigorously in the battle as a bot protecting the side skin?
                      The answer is, what do you think, will, for example, 381 mm / 42 penetrate a 150 mm casemate?
                      1. +2
                        3 February 2019 21: 12
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        does not cock a fuse

                        Andrei, the Japanese had no half-armor-piercing shells wink They had armor-piercing ones, after realizing some of the nuances of booking a hypothetical enemy (like their ships), high-explosive ones appeared. In any case, if the fuse does not cock the side skin, the armored deck will cock it. And let the shell explode on it, the surrounding compartments will suffer. Good quality construction of battleships with good steel will not save. If a high-explosive projectile hits, then it is still more deplorable for 25mm case steel and surrounding compartments. So leave the half-armor-piercing shells to the British laughing
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        with what a fright?

                        Let’s wait for the reservation description, then we’ll find out smile
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        The answer is, what do you think, will, for example, 381 mm / 42 penetrate a 150 mm casemate?

                        We are talking about the American reservation system. Do not distort, but answer my question asked earlier regarding American PMA calculations in battle of battleships when attacking enemy destroyers
                        And to understand the importance of protecting PMA on large ships, a couple of footnotes
                        Hit in the location of the nose 152-mm battery led to damage to one gun, to the occurrence of a fire from burning cordite and disabled 65 people.

                        If there weren't an armored casemate on the Malaya, the damage would have been more fatal
                        The next shell hit the area of ​​the admiral’s premises, in the bow of the ship, and bursting on the upper deck, caused a fire, and also caused loss of 102-hp bow guns in personnel.

                        Hitting the Princess Royal in the area of ​​an unarmored PMA nasal battery. The same is in store for American calculations. If the battery was armored, fewer people would be hurt by the shrapnel.
                        203 mm armor casemates of 150 mm artillery could not withstand large enemy shells, as a result of which one casemate was incapacitated along with personnel.

                        Hitting of a 381-mm semi-armor-piercing projectile into the Margraf's casemate. As you can see, you are right - even 203 mm casemate armor cannot stop a heavy projectile. But he disabled only ONE casemate with ONE gun. And he burst into an unarmored casemate "Pennsylvania" ??? I think it is useless to argue further
                      2. 0
                        3 February 2019 22: 16
                        I think further useless to argue laughing

                        First:
                        In any case, if the fuse does not cock the side skin, the armored deck will cock it. -
                        This is not a fact, at an angle of a trajectory of about 20-25 degrees, then the fuses worked extremely poorly. + It is highly likely that the shell will crack when hit without an explosion.

                        We will consider your examples:
                        1.At 17 p.m., the next two 30-mm shells pierced the deck of the forecastle (Fig. 305), bursting inside the 39-mm starboard batteries, disabled gun # 152, ignited the cord and made a big fire.
                        Do not be on "Malaya" armored casemate belay an armor-piercing shell would fly further without bursting, there would be NOTHING in this casemate laughing So?
                        Conclusion: PMK armor is harmful in this case for the safety of the PMK.
                        2.The fourth shell hit the joint of the 229- and 152-mm armor of the main belt, passed through it into the stern coal pit of the starboard side (Fig. 17), destroyed the casing of the rear engine room and exploded on the left side of the ship, killing several people mm guns.
                        And where is the armor of the PMK casemates? lol
                        3.The British were also likely opponents, - this time, some high-explosive shells easily turn into semi-armor-piercing if desired, and some are not very easy, but you can also finish them - these are two, so I strongly advise studying the materiel (I did not just ask questions about specific characteristics shell).

                        It is not clear how to argue further.
                        1. All this your secondary battery protection does not provide protection from 14-15 "shells at all.
                        2. All of your protection PMK eats hundreds of tons of displacement.
                        3. Protection of the PMK is not even a secondary task, but a tertiary one (will you go to war - will you try to wrap a bulletproof vest on your left hand?)

                        hi
                      3. 0
                        3 February 2019 23: 39
                        They had armor-piercing ones, after realizing some of the nuances of booking a hypothetical enemy (like their ships), high-explosive ones appeared.


                        lol

                        As a cu de grasse:

                        The Common Type 3 HE shell of the World War I period were derived from HE shells imported from Britain and was adopted on May 26, 1915 ... The original Type 3 had a shimose filler and had a tendency to detonate on impact, similar to British shells of the era.

                        It is probable that APC and CPC shells were also imported from Britain at this time but I have been unable to confirm that hypothesis.

                        The APC Type 3 was adopted in 1917.

                        http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_14-45_t41.php
                        negative
                      4. 0
                        5 February 2019 23: 46
                        Andrei, the Japanese didn’t have semi-armor-piercing shells wink They had armor-piercing shells, after realizing some of the nuances of booking a hypothetical enemy (like their ships) there were explosive shells.


                        Chespleerski will give one more point of view, besides Naval Vipons (this is a piece of a scan by Eric Lacroix and Eton Wells "Japanese cruisers ....")


                        But, alas, it will not help your arguments, IMHO. Rather, the opposite.
                        hi
                2. +3
                  3 February 2019 21: 04
                  Quote: Rurikovich
                  If the German battlecruisers had American-style protection, the Lutzow, Derflinger, Seydlitz would not have survived until the main phase of the collision of the main forces. wink

                  Funny laughing

                  https://img00.deviantart.net/37cf/i/2017/215/d/a/uss_pennsylvania__bb_38____aps_by_lioness_nala-d7dnnr0.jpg
                  1. -4
                    3 February 2019 23: 04
                    If the German battlecruisers had American-style protection, the Lutzow, Derflinger, Seydlitz would not have survived until the main phase of the collision of the main forces. lol fool

                    And my five cents:

                    1. Lyuttsov for this time:
                    At 15 hours on the Luttsov, the English battle cruiser Princess Royal opened artillery fire with 45 mm artillery, and at 343 hours the first hit with a half-armor-piercing shell (Fig. 16) did not cause serious damage to him (place hit remains unknown). Then one 55-mm shell hit the first Luttsov tower, but didn’t burst and ricocheted into the second tower, pierced its 343-mm armor, ignited two half-charges in the elevator inside, and at 280 spread a fire that spread in bow of the ship. The right gun was out of order, and the left, protected by a traverse, continued to shoot for some time, however, the tower had to be taken out of action for a while. Soon, the aft tower was damaged due to damage to the electric line, and its personnel had to switch to manual loading. At 16 hours and 30 minutes, the main and auxiliary radio stations were disabled by the projectile.
                    And where did HERE decide the armor belt at the extremities?

                    2.Derflinger for ALL time:


                    And where did HERE decide the armor belt at the extremities?

                    3. Seidlitz for ALL time:


                    And where did HERE decide the armor belt at the extremities?

                    Colleague, Rurikovich, materiel at the "kindergarten" level negative
      2. +1
        4 February 2019 12: 19
        "unprotected" crews of 127-mm were armored in every way no worse than the crews of BT and T-26

        1. 0
          4 February 2019 15: 31
          So draw the trajectory of the possible penetration of fragments inward from close explosive explosions with instant detonation, into the commander, gunner and loading this gun laughing
          Hint number one: if you draw a straight line from the pin to the bottom edge of the port cut, then it will be very far into the sea)
          Hint number two: American shipbuilding steel almost does not ricochets of fragments and its own chips

          And about the "crooked example of t26 and bt" - the rifle bullet smkh from 98k took them from 100 meters) although, probably, this example is too crooked, then I agree: I compared the round with the green wassat

          I don’t want to write my own post, I’ll just tactfully note that, IMHO, it made sense to spend weight on booking casemates against a “shimosa” from a distance of 30 cables, and in 1918 it was already ineffective and almost as anachronistic as a ramming, and at the same time very ate the weight vital to defend the citadel hi
          1. +1
            4 February 2019 20: 45
            So draw the trajectories of possible splinters ... Tip number one: if from the pin to the bottom edge of the port cut straight line...

            And why in a straight line? Hint 1 - the shards are not very fast and ballistic. the trajectory will be pretty steep. hint2- even "American steel" cannot "practically" exclude the rebound of a debris from the ceiling that has flown in through the port.
            ... it made sense to spend weight on booking casemates against a "shimosa" from a distance of 30 cables ...

            And than a land mine with melinite "with 30 cab")) is better than a land mine with TNT with 90 cab?
            Rather, "all or nothing" acts here. Having excluded landmines from their ammunition load, Amer. why did they think that others would do the same winked
            1. 0
              4 February 2019 22: 50
              First:

              Hint 1 - the fragments are not very fast.
              belay

              "The v0 values ​​of the fragments are in the range 1000-1500 m / s."

              Proof:
              USSR MINISTRY OF DEFENSE MANAGEMENT OF THE COMMANDER OF MISSILE TROOPS AND ARTILLERY OF THE LAND MILITIES: BASIS OF THE DEVICE AND DESIGN OF WEAPONS AND AMMUNDS OF THE LAND ARTILLERY

              The second:

              And than a land mine with melinite "with 30 cab")) is better than a land mine with TNT with 90 cab?


              1. "Melinit", "liddite" - trinitrophenol in tin foil
              Even In 1909, the Royal Navy began experimenting with APC using Lyddite as the burster and began introducing them into service the following year, even though testing had shown that this filling was more sensitive to shock than gunpowder and thus prone to explode prematurely before the shell had a chance to penetrate almost any thickness of armor plate.
              Proof: http: //www.navweaps.com/Weapons/Gun_Data_p2.php

              As I understand it, the problem of the stability of the leaddite to premature detonation BEFORE breaking through any armor during the NRF period has not been solved (about the modernization of liddit shells in the period until the end of the WWII is a separate issue).
              I'm not so stupid as to shoot at armored plates with "melinite", "liddite" of the RYAV period (if they are properly attached, of course). And the thick cladding can protect well against such a miracle.

              2. "Shimosa" - cast trinitrophenol with aluminum picrate in a silk sheath. In contrast to the classic picric acid, "shimosa" is safer and therefore, something can be punctured by it.

              3. "Since 1902, the German and American armies began to use ammunition filled with TNT instead of picric acid. In Russia, the industrial production of TNT began in 1909 at the Okhta plant using German technology. TNT became the main explosive for filling ammunition due to the successful combination of sufficient power with low sensitivity. Simply put, TNT can produce a projectile with a deceleration (even if it is 0,001 seconds), note, for me, for example, this is a projectile with a "minimum deceleration", for most with "instant action", since under " instantaneous action "according to WWII, inclusive, meant a slowdown of 0,001 seconds. But THIS already pierced up to 0,5 caliber (!!!) FUGAS

              Colleagues, let's first learn everything by heart Goncharova (a good collection of domestic views of those times) and NavalVipons (generally accepted foundations of commonplace erudition of the present). drinks
              1. +1
                4 February 2019 23: 15
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                In contrast to the classic picric acid, "shimosa" is safer and therefore, it can break through something.

                But this is very controversial. Aluminum added temperature to the chimose and, as a consequence of the high explosiveness, but no picrates were exactly added stability.
                1. 0
                  5 February 2019 00: 06
                  but stability none picrates were not exactly added.


                  iron picrate guarantees terrible instability,

                  Aluminum picrate is formed faster than with iron. He is a strong phlegmatizer of picric acid. Aluminum picrate REPLACES iron picrate (aluminum picrate is also unstable, but it’s even nothing against iron picrate).

                  Aluminum added chimose temperature


                  But lowered brisance.
                  1. +1
                    5 February 2019 22: 12
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    Aluminum picrate is formed faster than with iron. He is a strong phlegmatizer of picric acid. Aluminum picrate REPLACES iron picrate (aluminum picrate is also unstable, but it’s even nothing against iron picrate).

                    Where did you read that? laughing
                    Let me remind you:

                    Phlegmatizer: A liquid or plastic substance with which an increase in the resistance of an explosive to mechanical stress is achieved.


                    Phlegmatizers are introduced into the explosive to reduce its sensitivity to mechanical stress. Vaseline, various oils, talc, paraffin and the like are used as a phlegm-tizer. These substances envelop the explosive particles without reacting with them, and thereby reduce its sensitivity to mechanical stress.


                    How do you imagine an aluminum salt as an enveloping substance? :) Do you accidentally confuse aluminum picrate with ammonium picrate? (This is the one mentioned by the author of "Explosive D")

                    As far as I remember, dinitronaphthalene was added to trinitrophenol (shimose, etc.) to reduce sensitivity. But it didn’t help either shimose or liddit.
                    1. 0
                      5 February 2019 23: 02
                      Where did you read that?


                      Do you happen to confuse aluminum picrate with ammonium picrate? (

                      belay laughing

                      I accidentally think this is common knowledge.
                      See, for example: https://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/702499
                      Well, if corrected by arguments, it will be cool, I will say thanks.

                      Dinitronaphthalene was used during the First World War as part of the “Russian mixture” consisting of 48,5% of dinitronaphthalene and 51,5% of picric acid. A mixture of the same components in a ratio of 20:80 was known as the "French mixture".
                      WHY is there a shimoza? She was not in Russia laughing
                      1. 0
                        6 February 2019 22: 26
                        You have gone somewhere to the side. The link you provided is very similar to an excerpt from Wikipedia. Too polemic in form and contains some errors. You indicated the use of aluminum as a phlegmatizer in chimosis. I reminded you that this is impossible. And this means that shimosa did not differ from melenitis and liddite for the better in terms of sensitivity, rather the opposite. And as a result, its use in armor-piercing shells is doubtful in terms of effectiveness. (although there have been attempts)

                        As a phlegmatizer of picric acid, dinitronaphthalene was used. And first of all in France and from there it already got to Russia. This idea did not seem to reach the chimosa.

                        The use of dinitronaphthalene. During the imperialist war, dinitronaphthalene was used in significant quantities for the preparation of the so-called French mixture: an alloy consisting of 80 c. including picric acid and 20 in. including dinitronaphthalene. The latter served here as a phlegmatizer and to increase the total amount of highly explosive explosive. In the same war, dinitronaphthalene was used in France and in Russia in the form of mixtures with ammonium nitrate (78% ammonium nitrate and 22% dinitronaphthalene or 88% ammonium nitrate and 12% dinitronaphthalene) for equipment of some ammunition, mainly 16-dm artillery shells. ) Production of nitro compounds - Gorst A.G.
                      2. 0
                        6 February 2019 23: 27
                        Colleague, we probably have very different works by Gorst, since here's a scan of mine:



                        Gunpowder and explosives. Oborongiz, 1949.
                      3. 0
                        6 February 2019 23: 58
                        Of course they are different, I gave the name. "Manufacturing of nitro compounds - Gorst A.G." M .: Oboronkniga, 1940 .-- 452 p.



                        I am trying to point out the role of dinitronaphthalene as a phlegmatizer. And I think that with shimoza it may not have been used.
                      4. 0
                        7 February 2019 00: 01
                        A colleague, I know and appreciate the role of dinitronaphthalene as a phlegmatizer) And I just wrote that it was not used with shimosa

                        I downloaded, like, your "kung-fu" is more interesting - I will read it at my leisure, thanks
                      5. 0
                        7 February 2019 00: 04
                        The bottom line is that the shimosa also had no other phlegmatizers, and it was not suitable for armor-piercing shells.

                        However, this topic about shimoza has grown as it is already indecent. But it seems that they started with American battleships. :)
                      6. +1
                        7 February 2019 00: 12
                        it was not suitable for armor-piercing shells.

                        I and Naval Vipons quoted and hung the Lacroix scan - 100500% was not suitable for armor-piercing in any way, I completely agree

                        However, this topic about shimoza has grown as it is already indecent. But it seems that they started with American battleships. :)

                        Because the author did not include Fuso in the comparison, but still they began to compare with the most likely opponent (at least subconsciously)

                        But interesting. Thank! drinks hi
                      7. 0
                        6 February 2019 23: 50
                        You have gone somewhere to the side. The link you provided is very similar to an excerpt from Wikipedia.


                        I wrote:
                        See, for example: https://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwikifinal match.
                        Well, if corrected by arguments, it will be cool, I will say thanks.


                        I agree that
                        And as a result, its use in armor-piercing shells is doubtful in terms of effectiveness. (although there have been attempts)


                        Dinitrophenol really helped, for example, in Shellite.

                        If you go to https://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/ 702499 stupid, reveal her mistakes - I will say thank you very much.

                        About phlegmatizer, well, I think, have not yet been proven. For example, an option: in the presence of excess moisture, picric acid reacted with aluminum powder before reacting with the wall of the projectile separated from it, for example, by silk. Water remained in the composition of aluminum picrate, without the influence of water, iron picrate was stable (wrote at random, if corrected, it will be super).
                    2. 0
                      6 February 2019 01: 21
                      Chespleerski will have to say that there are other versions, for example:

                      Shimoze - Under this name, explosives became so famous, so much sensational during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905. As shown by studies of the contents of high-explosive field artillery shells taken from the Japanese at the Putilov Hill, as well as shells that hit the Russian military vessels and did not explode, and caught Japanese mines, the so-called. III. in its chemical composition there is nothing more, no less than fused picric acid (see) and, consequently, in this respect, and therefore, in its strength is identical with melinite and liddite (see add.). Discovered in it during analysis foreign matter impuritiesapparently and especially in mind a negligible amount of them are random and are easily explained by the use of less pure phenol grades for the preparation of picric acid. Being the same with melinite in composition, Sh. Nevertheless differs from it in the physical structure of its mass, in particular Sh. From high-explosive field grenades. ANDIt is possible that the mass of the latter is finely crystalline and very dense (up to 1,68), which is achieved, as shown by the corresponding experiments, using a special casting technique, almost very convenient and simple. Mass of Sh. From other shells of coarse-crystalline addition, but unlike melinite, the arrangement of crystals in it is wrong. Equipment is case. The ingots cast into the appropriate molds are then wrapped tin foil and wax paper, and some. in addition, the varieties of shells are also dressed in a cover made of soft paper fabric that looks like a flannel. The explosion of the charge is carried out using a capsule with explosive mercury through a detonator of powdered picric acid, in field grenades, simply poured into a long cardboard tube, and in shells of marine artillery pressed into a brass cup of a shock tube. (Brockhaus and Efron).

                      My personal opinion is that the Japanese had several varieties of NOT shell.

                      In relation to the version I have quoted, I VERY incorrectly put it:
                      Aluminum picrate is formed much more slowly, and not "faster" than iron picrate, since aluminum is well resistant to picric acid - I mean before the formation of picrates upon contact with the steel wall of the projectile.
                      Specification according to my version: I did not find exact data on the formation and behavior of picrates in the presence of a small amount of water (I saw a lot of indications of the importance of this factor, but without a detailed decryption). Therefore, the aluminum version can be severely criticized for lack of evidence.
                      1. 0
                        6 February 2019 22: 36
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Therefore, the aluminum version can be severely criticized for lack of evidence.

                        I do not quite understand what exactly you proposed to criticize.
                        The presence of aluminum in the chimose is also confirmed by other sources and the point is to increase the temperature of the explosion, which will increase the volume of gases and, as a consequence, increase the explosiveness. And the protection of shimoza from iron picrates, as you yourself quoted, was provided by a tin case with a fabric sheath.
                      2. 0
                        6 February 2019 23: 13
                        I meant that the version of a decrease in the chemical activity of picric acid due to the fact that it has already come into contact with aluminum, can be severely criticized, since
                        I did not find exact data on the formation and behavior of picrates in the presence of a small amount of water (I saw a lot of indications of the importance of this factor, but without a detailed interpretation).


                        I found accurate data on the behavior of picrates, the formation and life of which took place without the participation of water (this is rzhaka, but "iron picrate 2" is very stable to impact in such conditions), the stated stability does not fit with all sources at all, therefore I am looking for data further regarding the role of water in producing impact-resistant picrates

                        Regarding the presence of aluminum in shimoz, in principle, the question is good, since Brockhaus and Efron, as I understand it, categorically refute this for ALL Japanese consignments studied by Russian shells, as I wrote:
                        The impurities of foreign substances found in it during analysis, apparently and especially in view of their negligible amount, are random in nature and can easily be explained by the use of less pure phenol grades for the preparation of picric acid. Being the same with melinite in composition, Sh. Nevertheless differs from it in the physical structure of its mass, in particular Sh. From high-explosive field grenades.


                        In general, I am inclined to conclude that the Japanese had at least three main varieties of explosives based on picric acid, the technology for casting dense explosives was common to all, I think that initially Masachika Shimoze proposed precisely the technology of casting fine-grained mass, and then the Japanese experimented: silk / tin / flannel / wax paper, in some cases there was an addition of aluminum, there was a version with a coarse mass, etc.
              2. 0
                4 February 2019 23: 53
                Colleagues, let's first learn everything by heart Goncharov

                What for? To measure "learning by heart" with you? Most of your "many bukoffs" are not to the question (and some are incorrect))
                The initial question was whether to book the PMK. Then, whether the 127mm guns and Pence calculations are more narrowly protected. from splinter. Then they brought you a snapshot of the gun. ports, you grabbed the geometry of scattering of splinter-it is your way from far away in a straight line ... When I pointed out to you that it is possible and closer and not in a straight line, give the Vo values ​​of flanks)) A where are the values ​​of V20; V30 (m) ... ?? If they are large (why b?) Then you can and from far away))) Well, Vo, depending on their size!
                I'm not so stupid to shoot at armored plates with "melinite", "liddite" of the RYAV period

                And why not? Let's start with the fact that (1) there is no chemical. the difference between "mellinite" and "shimosa" is only a mechanical crystallization process (not a shell at all)) (2) "the problem of liddite resistance to premature detonation" somehow "was solved and the ARS was equipped with it, but FUGASI - less often. And when they exploded, it was the pipes, not the shimose. and then (relatively thin) armor did not protect 100% from land mines.
                Simply put, TNT can make a projectile with a slowdown (even if it's 0,001 seconds)

                this (and with a big slowdown) turned out earlier.
                Phew, tired, apparently you and I have nothing more to do to make it smart)))
                summary-
                1. Shooting at high-explosive with a battleship makes sense because:
                a) displays the OMS (remember Count Spee), PMK, extremities ...
                b) if so, local booking also makes sense, only you need to guess it in advance (or succumb to healthy conservatism))
                1. 0
                  5 February 2019 00: 20
                  The initial question was whether to book the PMK.


                  Well, they sorted it out. IMHO.

                  Well, and Vo depending on their size!


                  Vo is practically independent of size, it is almost equal to the rate of destruction of the projectile by an explosion.

                  And where are the values ​​of V20; V30


                  So it would be necessary to count V100, and point how many of them from there will be in the right sector. laughing

                  Let's start with the fact that (1) there is no chemical. the difference between "mellinite" and "shimosa" is only a mechanical crystallization process (not a shell at all)


                  On this and finish. Read about aluminum picrate. - Memorize NavalWipons to get you started laughing

                  this (and with a big slowdown) turned out earlier


                  Yes, armor-piercing from smoky gunpowder. Well, or pyroxylin, which must be moistened)
                  You actually asked to compare FUGAS with liddit and FUGAS with TNT - they gave you an educational program.
                  Say thank you.

                  High-explosive shooting on a battleship makes sense because


                  Am I arguing with that. Of course it does. In order to understand the logic of the reasoning of that time, read Goncharov (there are interesting "Berkalov diagrams" there), I disagree with him on the methodology for collecting individual primary data, but as a general educational program no one will interfere laughing
                  1. 0
                    5 February 2019 00: 45
                    Phew, I'm tired of it, but you eat something "chespleer" that's why we'll continue slalom))
                    Well, they sorted it out. IMHO.

                    And what is the conclusion? IMHO?
                    Yes, armor-piercing from smoky gunpowder. Well, or pyroxylin, which must be moistened)
                    ... Learn by heart NavalVipons to start

                    We read "NavalVipons" as advised (but did not read ((
                    fr. 305 mm / 40 (12 ") Model 1893/1896; 305 mm / 45 (12") Model 1893; 305 mm / 40 (12 ") Model 1893; 305 mm / 45 (12") Model 1887
                    Bursting Charge N / A (number) 1 * HE projectiles were made with either black powder (gunpowder) or Melinite bursters, while AP and SAP were made with Melinite bursters.
                    Say thank you!
                    to understand logic of reasoning of that time read Goncharov

                    Here the dispute was not about, but about your "modern" reasoning (that 1 "ship steel is the best protection of the secondary battery) Then perhaps they thought so, but you claim NOW that it eats like that ((
                    1. 0
                      5 February 2019 07: 57
                      Good morning, colleague. I will emphasize once again that I do not pretend to possess the truth in all cases of life, therefore I am always grateful for any adequate correction of my thoughts. Moreover, I have said several times that many years ago I gave up writing a book on the "cost-effectiveness" of military spending and would like to check the correctness of a number of thoughts on this site before continuing. Therefore, I need "chespleering") Let's continue:

                      And what is the conclusion? IMHO?


                      1.Armor of the casemates became obsolete with the advent of TNT, which completely changed the nature of the armor penetration of high-explosive shells, as well as the general progress of artillery after the REV.
                      A simple offhand example: according to the results of the RYAV, the armor of the Borodino casemates was considered good protection against a 305-mm land mine with shimosa (liddite is still less effective), and according to the results of the Chesma tests, it turned out that 125-mm armor is completely ineffective against the new 305-mm land mine. The Germans realized this in about 1902 (!!!), so, if possible, they began to make the minimum thickness of vertical armor at 0,5 shell caliber.
                      2.The armor of the casemates is completely outdated with the advent of shells 14-15 " И increase in battle distances (each ton of weight became urgently needed to protect the citadel)

                      while AP and SAP were made with Melinite bursters.


                      It’s clear what the APs tried to do with melinitis, the question is how effective were they?
                      1. I already wrote:
                      Even In 1909, the Royal Navy began experimenting with APC using Lyddite as the burster and began introducing them into service the following year, even though testing had shown that this filling was more sensitive to shock than gunpowder and thus prone to explode prematurely before the shell had a chance to penetrate almost any thickness of armor plate.
                      Proof: http: //www.navweaps.com/Weapons/Gun_Data_p2.php

                      2. An example of British and Japanese AP shells with black powder.


                      Here the dispute was not about, but about your "modern" reasoning (that 1 "ship steel is the best protection of the secondary battery)


                      To be absolutely precise, I wrote:
                      I tactfully hint that 25 mm steel in some cases (depends on the answers to my questions above) more effective for preserving the PMC of the battleship than the 125 mm: it holds fragments well, but, for example, does not cock the fuse

                      My logic is no exception here, even if not an ideal example, but remember the "booking" of 203-mm turrets of Japanese heavy cruisers of the WWII period, they reasoned the same way as I did.

                      PS 1: I never wrote that the protection of the PMK is not needed at all, I wrote that it
                      1. The third important task
                      2. Its redundancy is completely unnecessary
                      3. References of a colleague to "Malaya" and "Princess Royal" to put it mildly "at least do not confirm" his own arguments

                      PS 2: I never wrote that the landmines are inefficient and not needed at all, I wrote that
                      "Berkalov diagrams" (even if I do not agree with him on the methodology for collecting individual primary data), clearly show cases of their optimal use

                      PS 3: I never wrote that I do not need extremity protection (Rurikovich, hi), I wrote that
                      1. Such protection is of secondary importance.
                      2. Colleagues' references to damage to Derflinger and Seydlitz are completely past the box office, and he describes the course of combat damage to Luttsov in a completely wrong way
                      3.I always meant that the unprotected ends of American "standards" are not that great (although less could be)

                      Colleagues, thank you for your patience. drinks
                      Dear Andrey from Chelyabinsk, I apologize that it so happened that we got into our discussion a couple of your articles ahead and have been discussing booking "standards" for a long time feel But comments on your next article will be more interesting and more constructive)
          2. +2
            5 February 2019 08: 50
            No, colleague, I’m specifically talking about the comparison with BT and T-26. That's how you draw me such an embrasure on these tanks, so you will immediately have a trajectory :)))
            too curved example

            This is very softly said!
            1. 0
              5 February 2019 10: 18
              This is very softly said!


              Yes, I agree. Then I went too far.

              But such a size of an unprotected embrasure is, albeit bad, from the point of view of protection, but not a tragedy at all, since:
              1.Not every land mine from the time of the WWII will explode on the surface of the water,
              2. From a distance of about 100 meters, the sector of unprotected embrasure is narrow relative to the sphere of expansion of fragments - quite a lot of fragments will not fly.

              During the war between the USA and Spain, when the calculations were specially hunted with guns of 3 "or less - then yes, it would be a" capital flight. "

              There is one more consideration, in my opinion, very important: if the PMK fire control is not carried out centrally, such an embrasure gives an excellent overview, which, IMHO, is often much more necessary than additional protection against fragments.
              1. +4
                5 February 2019 18: 10
                Colleague, at the time of Pennsylvania's design, the Russo-Japanese War was the most, so to speak, fresh large-scale naval conflict. The experience of which clearly showed:
                1) Landmines may well explode from water strikes.
                2) Wide loopholes simply attract fragments to themselves.
                In principle, nothing prevented from putting light anti-shatter panels and closing the question, but ...
                I don't even know what the "critics" would say if such garbage were created by domestic shipbuilders.
                Although no, I know. Women give birth to new ones! (TM)
                1. 0
                  5 February 2019 20: 33
                  Colleague, I apologize for the difficult style of communication, I probably should find time for articles to be more immediately clear, since I already confuse 20 long comments, but, to be honest, I perfectly understand that

                  Russian-Japanese war. The experience of which absolutely unequivocally showed:
                  1) Landmines may well explode from water strikes.
                  2) Wide loopholes simply attract fragments to themselves.


                  that is why I wrote:
                  Not every landmine of times WWI to tear on a surface water


                  therefore I agree with you that

                  In principle, nothing prevented from putting light anti-shatter panels and closing the question, but ...


                  but I already wrote:

                  There is one more consideration, in my opinion, very important: if the PMK fire control is not carried out centrally, then such an embrasure gives an excellent overviewthat, IMHO, often much more neededthan additional protection against fragments.
                  1. +2
                    6 February 2019 09: 33
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    that is why I wrote:
                    Not every landmine from the time of WWII will explode on the surface of the water

                    Oh yeah! And American shipbuilders knew about this for sure. They also had a time machine, it’s a pity that only Pearl Harbor broke :)))
                    1. 0
                      6 February 2019 10: 12
                      Oh yeah! And American shipbuilders knew this for sure.


                      laughing

                      Once again, I apologize, colleague, that I do not have time to write articles, so most of the arguments I have are implied, not written:
                      American shipbuilders were guaranteed to know that, for example, ammonium picrate would definitely not explode on the surface of the water
                      I don’t remember where to find the proof, so I’ll carefully write that American shipbuilders knew with certainty almost certainly TNT, which would also almost certainly not explode on the surface of the water

                      It is not known exactly what the American shipbuilders knew about the British and Japanese shells, but given the fact that Vickers and Armstrong traded them, it would be very logical to assume that American shipbuilders knew that the guns were 14 "
                      -there are massively semi-armor-piercing,
                      -there are quite problematic armor-piercing,
                      - the Japanese seem to have mastered the creation of land mines, but in fact it is doubtful

                      They are not completely stupid, therefore, most likely, like almost all American shipbuilders at that time, "scratched their turnips and cursed"

                      But, as I wrote:
                      There is one more consideration, in my opinion, very important: if the PMK fire control is not carried out centrally, such an embrasure gives an excellent overview, which, IMHO, is often much more necessary than additional protection against fragments.

                      This explanation has no proof, but it is very simple, very logical and, as I think, does not contradict any of the known facts.
                      1. +4
                        6 February 2019 15: 23
                        American shipbuilders are guaranteed to know that they, for example, ammonium picrate will definitely not explode on the surface of the water
                        I don’t remember where to find the proof, so I’ll carefully write that the American shipbuilders knew almost certainly about TNT, which also almost certainly will not explode on the surface of the water

                        Colleague Shmelev, with an apology, what kind of "dream of reason" do you have? The projectile will explode or not close to the surface of the water, depending on the design and adjustment of its fuse, and not depending on the filling.
                        ... what about 14 "guns .... -the Japanese, they say, have coped with the creation of land mines, but in fact this is doubtful
                        And UTB in your opinion some kind of technological problem?)))
                        More likely, the other is true - the Americans were too fond of armor-piercing shells - even to average callibers. Consideration to replace the 152mm rapid-fire battleships by 178mm was precisely the proliferation (large areas) of anti-explosive booking from foreigners ("smeared" booking)) and increased distances battle, because of which 152mm armor-piercing the shell no longer pierced it ...
                      2. 0
                        6 February 2019 15: 55
                        depending on the design and adjustment of your fuse


                        It's obvious. But no matter how you adjust the fuse, the liddit loves to explode on surfaces BEFORE initiation with a standard fuse (it is clear that they fought with this, but it is also clear that there were difficulties). The point of using more stable substances in high-explosive projectiles is to initially make / adjust the deceleration fuse and provide an explosion behind the skin / armor, that is, to dramatically increase the effectiveness of land mines. Therefore, as I wrote, American shipbuilders are not completely stupid, it was obvious to anyone that ammonium picrate or TNT simply "asked by themselves" to slow down the fuse and those were worth the wait.

                        Threat. definitely plus for the fact that they themselves came to one of Berkalov’s main conclusions: the most promising projectile = a mine with a variable deceleration of the bottom fuse

                        ... what about 14 "guns .... -the Japanese, they say, have coped with the creation of land mines, but in fact this is doubtful
                        And UTB in your opinion some kind of technological problem?)))

                        There is no TNT, but then the whole world knew that the Japanese were making shimosa: if shimosa = just different picric acid poured - huge problems, if shimosa = picric acid with a changed grain structure - I think the same if shimosa = mixture with aluminum powder - maybe just very large (half of the trunks may themselves explode if the cellar does not explode earlier).

                        and increased battle distances, because of which the 152mm armor-piercing projectile no longer pierced it ...

                        this, IMHO, is one of the arguments, but the HEALTHY 152-mm shell of the time of the REV, IMHO, could withstand the 37-mm armor
                      3. +2
                        6 February 2019 19: 19
                        Yes it is obvious. But no matter how you adjust the fuse, liddit loves to explode not on the surface BEFORE initiation by a regular fuse ...

                        But TNT (in your opinion) would never explode, despite the fact that its fuse strongly asked)))
                        The point of using more stable substances in HE shells is to initially make / adjust a fuse with a delay.

                        Slowing down is important for armor-piercing, and land mines ...
                        I don’t intend to continue further - you really have some kind of obsession (and on the subject of explosives, but not only ... I'm sorry, there is no time (((
                      4. 0
                        6 February 2019 20: 42
                        But TNT (in your opinion) would never explode, despite the fact that his fuse urgently asked)))


                        Why did TNT need an instant fuse?

                        Slowing down is important for armor-piercing, and land mines ...


                        As you say, colleague, if you think that a land mine should explode outside, and not inside the ship, then it’s better not to continue
                      5. +2
                        6 February 2019 21: 47
                        Why did TNT need an instant fuse?

                        I don’t know why EMU, I didn’t ask him))) But the designers of the shells liked adjustable ones so that the combat use could correspond to the beat. goals.
                        if you think that a landmine should explode outside ...

                        A projectile (including a land mine) should explode where the fuse indicates to it, and not depending on the filling (for some reason)
                      6. 0
                        6 February 2019 23: 58
                        I don’t know why EMU, I didn’t ask him))) But the designers of the shells liked adjustable ones so that the combat use could correspond to the beat. goals.


                        And why do they prove to me for two days that the landmines will certainly burst on the very surface of the water out of harm in order to kill the PMK servant, maybe they will set him up so that he goes 10 meters down (which is much more likely and more logical)

                        A projectile (including a land mine) should explode where the fuse indicates to it, and not depending on the filling (for some reason)


                        Yes it’s clear that should. Only here is the leaddit loves explode not where should. About what I actually wrote the last two days. TNT appeared and a landmine began to explode where the detonator indicated it. There was no TNT - a landmine exploded in the barrels of guns.

                        So now we have no contradictions drinks
                      7. +2
                        6 February 2019 19: 28
                        Colleague, I'm sorry, but Anzar is right. This is the "dream of the mind".
                        In general, "logical" is a very bad explanation for the historian. simply because the story is illogical in principle.
                        I am not saying that your explanation is a priori incorrect, it is quite possible that it is somewhat true. In the sense that perhaps Americans reasoned just like that .... but this decision did not become a good one.
                        On the other hand, a warship is always a compromise, so it cannot be ideal by definition.
                      8. 0
                        6 February 2019 21: 37
                        Yes, fine), although let's wait for further articles in the series, I’ll wang, the author will have to shoot from one ship to another, who knows what he will do)

                        In my opinion, it’s right when you don’t know the exact course of reasoning of specific individuals, to sort out simple and logical explanations for a start, the result will not be a fact, of course, but a completely working hypothesis

                        In my opinion, it is wrong, without a simple and logical explanation, to believe that one of the ancestors made a mistake due to impassable stupidity is much more likely for me that we do not see a simple and logical explanation or do not want to accept it

                        And yet I sincerely do not understand what exactly my "mind dream" is, for example, with shells. The fact that I don't understand that "slowing down is only important for armor-piercing ones" is, obviously, completely wrong, normal land mines also penetrate thin armor and that's cool.

                        And yet I sincerely do not understand what exactly my "mind dream" is, for example, with explosives. There are several main versions on shimose (I have cited all of them, none of them fundamentally affects the course of reasoning). Everything else is common truth.

                        So far, all my "dream of reason" I see only in the postulate that the domestic tradition of absolutizing individual conclusions obtained from the results of the RJW has not greatly benefited the correct development of military thought, since such conclusions are no longer completely corresponded to the new state of technology and tactics
  4. +3
    2 February 2019 10: 19
    To the author - respect and bravo.
    I have been fond of the history of the fleet for a very long time, but it never crossed my mind to analyze the performance characteristics and design features (humanities by mind) so deeply, for which I thank the author separately.
  5. +1
    2 February 2019 10: 46
    in tropical areas of the Pacific Ocean, where, according to admirals, they had to fight with the Japanese fleet

    It turns out, they already in those years, "planned a war" with Japan?

    Thanks for your work! +
    1. +3
      2 February 2019 13: 31
      Quote: bars042
      It turns out, they already in those years, "planned a war" with Japan?

      Naturally. And with the Japanese, and with the British, and with both at once. If you think a little, this is the work of the naval command.
      1. -1
        2 February 2019 14: 03
        And where in the Pacific Ocean, the "nearest" land for which you need to fight
        And with the Japanese and the British
        except Hawaii? It turns out they were planning a war of aggression on the other side of the Pacific Ocean?
        1. 0
          2 February 2019 14: 32
          Quote: bars042
          where in the Pacific Ocean, the "closest" land for which you need to fight

          Who told you that the fleet is fighting for land?
          First, the task of the fleet of that period is to interrupt enemy communications and provide for its own. The British fleet, among other things, tightly shut off sea supplies to Germany from neutrals, except for the Baltic.
          Secondly, if you remember, the Japanese in the winter of the 42nd kicked the Americans out of the Philippines and a number of smaller islands. The main concern of the Americans in the 30s was the protection of the Panama Canal, it was no less important than the Suez for the British.
          Thirdly, for you to understand, there are no aggressive wars. There is a defense against invaders on their territory. In the USSR of those years, for example, they knew a lot about such things. And not only in the USSR.
        2. +1
          2 February 2019 15: 05
          "nearest" land to fight for:
          - Philippines)
          did they plan a war of conquest on the other side of the Pacific Ocean? - why a question mark?
          1. +2
            2 February 2019 16: 10
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            question mark

            If you do not go into details, but evaluate the formal side of the issue, then in December 41 all the first predators treacherously attacked America peacefully sleeping: Japan, Germany, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Slovakia. A striking blow was dealt by Albania, which declared war on the United States on December 17.

            However, something went wrong.
            We do not want war, but we will defend ourselves

            We are fortifying the defense for a reason,

            And in enemy land, we will crush the enemy

            Little blood, a mighty blow!

            To some of the named aggressors, the Americans quite got to themselves with the obvious help of the fleet. Unfortunately, most of them do not.

            Unfortunately for the peoples of these countries.

            Why you decided to speculate on the topic of wars of conquest is not clear. The Americans first realized that colonies are not profitable.
            1. +1
              2 February 2019 16: 26
              If you do not go into details, but evaluate the formal side of the issue belay
              Japan took the American oil embargo as an actual war (and rightly so, IMHO)

              The Americans first realized that colonies are not profitable. belay
              Americans were the first to understand that the colonial system needed to be "reformatted"

              IMHO, here it is offtopic. We will not argue here.

              PS / The requirement to reach the Philippines has always been a cornerstone in the design of American battleships.
  6. +1
    2 February 2019 12: 27
    We will start this article with a little work on bugs: ..., we indicated that the device

    "Don't let him hurt us, sweetheart! They don't want to hurt us, do they, nice little hobbits-s-s." laughing Something inspired, do not be angry ...
    The word "probably" is used because the respected author indicates not cables, but meters (16 m), however, in the English-language literature, as a rule, not meters are indicated, but yards, in this case the distance was only 500 cables.

    So your opponent takes these numbers from English-language literature, for example "Evolution of Battleship Gunnery in the US Navy, 1920-1945" By William J. Jurens., Which says "18,001 yards" ...
    A.V. Mandel calls such accuracy an outstanding result, citing the fact that the famous Bismarck showed less accuracy during the battle in the Danish Strait.
    He does not name, but translates from the same book. Only after the paragraph about the results of shooting, better than those of the "Bismarck" in the original follows the paragraph: "Still, the Navy was far from satisfied." The large pattern obtained and the difficulty in making hits with the 14-inch, 45 caliber gun even with good fire control are sources of discouragement, "noted Lt. DP Moon, Nevada's gunnery officer." ..

    In general, everything is interesting ..
    1. +1
      2 February 2019 12: 39
      Read wassat with pleasure and we will wait for the continuation .. Is there something attractive in ships, especially in battleships .. More iron? smile
  7. +1
    2 February 2019 12: 51
    The first four volleys laid a covering, but there were no hits; on the 5, observers counted one hit on the battleship, and two more hits on the 6 and 7 shots. And the total 5 hits on 67 spent shells, respectively, the accuracy was 7,46%.
    A.V. Mandel calls such accuracy an outstanding result, citing the fact that the famous Bismarck showed less accuracy during the battle in the Danish Strait. But such a comparison is completely incorrect.


    The assessment made by A.V. Mandel is quite logical. The fact is that the Americans have developed their own volley fire system. It implied the adjustment of all sights of guns of the same caliber according to the data of the gun that gave the greatest deviation from the target, to reduce the spread of shells in the salvo. They did not expect a hit from the first shot, for them the accuracy of the volley and the possibility of faster correction were more important. This technique could be used for guns of the same caliber with different performance characteristics and barrel wear. It also allowed for joint salvo firing of guns of the main and medium (mine) caliber.

    Strictly speaking, this, of course, is not evidence that high-explosive shells were missing from the US battleship’s ammunition, but ... there were no indications that the guns were equipped with such shells. And, as we know, the Americans provided the main caliber of their battleships only with armor-piercing shells until the Second World War.


    Such a projectile was developed and produced, it contained from 3 to 7 percent explosive. The Americans gave it the neutral name "steel non-armor-piercing projectile". They were part of the ammunition is difficult to determine, since it could change depending on the intended use
    the ship. Part of these shells, with the highest explosive content, was sent to France for use on 14-inch railroad artillery installations.

    "..... almost all of the ammunition for the 14-inch railroad batteries was taken from the Navy's stockpiles. The charges used were used in the fleet, the shells had the same weight as armor-piercing ones, but with an increased explosive content. a total of 1800 shells were handed over to the army.... "US naval ammunition. 1920
    1. +1
      2 February 2019 19: 53
      Good day, dear Igor!
      Quote: 27091965i
      It implied the adjustment of all sights of guns of one caliber according to the data of the gun that gave the greatest deviation from the target, to reduce the spread of shells in a salvo

      But given the fact that their expansion in a salvo, apparently, more than doubled English, I can not say that the Americans succeed :)))))
      Quote: 27091965i
      Such a projectile was developed and produced, it contained from 3 to 7 percent explosive. The Americans gave it the neutral name "steel non-armor-piercing projectile".

      And it is not known whether they were part of the ammunition? It's a pity.
      1. +1
        3 February 2019 14: 23
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And it is not known whether they were part of the ammunition? It's a pity.


        Good afternoon, dear Andrew.

        In 1912, Congress allocated money to develop a projectile for the Navy with an increased explosive charge, although it was stated that the main projectile would be armor-piercing.
        The Ammunition Bureau put forward a proposal to use 14 inch guns on November 12, 1917, while it also proposed to use a shell, its weight is 635 kg, its explosive content is 40 kg, and the initial speed is 850 m / s. Part of the shells was taken from the ammunition for the battleships New Mexico, Mississippi, and Idaho under construction.
        Based on reports on the combat activities of these batteries, it was stated that the alleged effectiveness of these shells was confirmed when firing at ground targets. Therefore, most likely they were not included in the main ammunition, but were tested for real purposes. Shells continued to produce, but not in large quantities, at that time there was no need for them.
        1. 0
          4 February 2019 09: 47
          Thank you very much, I will know! hi
    2. 0
      2 February 2019 20: 16
      Quote: 27091965i
      Such a projectile was developed and produced, it contained from 3 to 7 percent explosive. The Americans gave it a neutral name "steel non-armor-piercing projectile"

      "Common Mark 15 Mods 1 through 14: 1.73 lbs. (0.78 kg) Black Powder" - with a projectile weight of 22.7 kg, the weight of the black powder charge is 3.4%. It's really a little.
      1. +1
        3 February 2019 04: 02
        Quote: Saxahorse
        "Common Mark 15 Mods 1 through 14: 1.73 lbs. (0.78 kg) Black Powder" - with a projectile weight of 22.7 kg, the weight of the black powder charge is 3.4%.

        Man, this is about shells, some of which
        Quote: 27091965i
        with the highest explosive content was sent to France for use on the 14 inch railway artillery.

        Please explain how a 14 '' shell could weigh a little over twenty kilograms, as mentioned in your comment?
        1. +1
          3 February 2019 19: 17
          The mine caliber intrigued me more. If the main caliber can still be imagined as armor-piercing, then it’s strange to shoot almost blanks on the openwork sides of destroyers.
    3. +1
      2 February 2019 21: 53
      "It meant adjusting all the sights of guns of the same caliber according to the data of the gun that gave the greatest deviation from the target, to reduce the spread of shells in a salvo" - did you understand what you wrote? belay
      1. 0
        2 February 2019 23: 07
        Quote: Bone1
        you understand what you wrote?


        I understood. If you do not understand, read "Fundamentals of practical naval artillery. Study of the principles and practice of external ballistics as applied to naval artillery. Calculation and use of ballistic and rangefinder tables of the US Navy" 1917
        1. -3
          2 February 2019 23: 11
          Obviously reading this is contagious - over what consequences laughing
  8. +3
    2 February 2019 13: 28
    But the main objection A.The. Mandela consists in the fact that, as a rule, in combat, the accuracy of shooting is reduced several times, and even by orders of magnitude, compared to that which was achieved in pre-war shooting.

    )))
    ABK was especially impressed by the remark of the battleship commander, a former artilleryman: “Great God! But we got! ” Immediately after the battle, he ordered this expression to be written down in case he needed to wipe the nose of the artillery school of the fleet

    Shot with 8 cable.
    1. 0
      2 February 2019 21: 55
      And what’s happening in the battle? -The hands are shaking, the eyes are watery and everything is confused in the head? laughing
      1. 0
        2 February 2019 22: 47
        and in battle the "tower shield" lies flat, hides and fires back laughing
        "and a rifle for you, and send you into battle ..." (c)
  9. +2
    2 February 2019 13: 58
    Good article, thanks! good

    Eh, that would be in this series also "Fuso" (the main likely enemy)

    And "Emperor Nicholas I" undeservedly deprived of attention - it would be nice to look at "all or nothing" but under the hail of 305-mm arr. 1911 winked
  10. 0
    2 February 2019 14: 11
    I’ll add five cents from myself:

    Source: NAVAL WEAPONS OF WORLD WAR ONE. N. Friedman

    When the ships of the US 6th Battle Squadron reached Scapa Flow, they showed about twice the dispersion of their British counterparts. ... At this time it was reported that British dispersion at 20,000yds was about 115yds.

    This is why it is not clear (I myself did not find the exact data) the reasons for the spread:

    Data available in the spring of 1920 (variation / distance in yards):
    Nevada 301 17,600
    Oklahoma 370 20,000
    Pennsylvania 128 19,000
    Mississippi 650 21,000
    Mississippi 80 24,000 Excellent
    Mississippi 250 28,000
    New Mexico 280 18,000

    Obviously, American ships could not help but shoot with different methods, only this can explain such a spread in the results of firing, it’s not clear what methods they used to get the initial data.

    It would be great if one of my colleagues helped to understand this fundamental issue.
  11. +3
    2 February 2019 14: 23
    Explanatory article! But the most important thing is that the Germans built their battleships for battle in the North Sea and were not going to walk along the hills! Each country made ships under its own conditions. The Angles were the hardest! For an empire over which the sun does not set should have been a better circle, but this is unrealistic. Therefore, the English have average indicators in all respects, but wild autonomy and the ability to fight with any opponent on equal terms!
    1. 0
      2 February 2019 23: 14
      And how do you combine average performance in all respects with the ability to fight with any opponent on an equal footing? belay - in case of wild autonomy - I am silent laughing
      1. 0
        3 February 2019 00: 11
        We look at the height of the side of the Angles and Draychev and then we see clearly!
        1. 0
          3 February 2019 19: 59
          Got it - "no mental illness, just" laughing
  12. 0
    2 February 2019 15: 16
    Quote: dgonni
    Therefore, the English have average indicators in all respects, but wild autonomy

    Doubtful statement ..
  13. +2
    2 February 2019 15: 52
    +++ Andrey, the towers are super)), we are waiting for the reservation (the other side of the coin)). However, I do not agree with some estimates:
    ... but in any case, it was located above the main armored deck, outside the battleship citadel

    And so what? 1- bron. decks never don't pass through the barbet, so what's the difference? Even better, the barbet up is thicker. 2- it is more difficult to punch a 330mm barbet (round!) Than a 330mm straight beam or 343mm belt. And there is no danger from shells diving under the "citadel")))
    However, apparently the "shell deck of the tower" was located below the armored deck, where the barbet on the scheme is flattening ... ((
    1. +1
      2 February 2019 19: 51
      Quote: anzar
      And so what? 1- armor. decks never go through barbets, so what's the difference?

      In the reloading compartment - if its design is correct, the breakdown of the tower or barbet will not cause fire to enter the powder / shell cellar
      Quote: anzar
      However, apparently the "shell deck of the tower" was located below the armored deck

      No, it's just that the Americans were "ashamed" to draw a shell deck, limiting themselves to only the lower tier. The shell deck was at the level of the second (that is, the main armored) deck and was not protected by it
      1. 0
        2 February 2019 22: 21
        In the reloading compartment - if its design is correct, the breakdown of the tower or barbet will not cause fire to enter the powder / shell cellar

        Yes, but where does the armored deck? And how does she protect, because below her barbet armor is thinner or not at all?
        No, it's just that the Americans were "ashamed" to draw a shell deck, limiting themselves to only the lower tier ...

        Some Pole (?) Drew this diagram. Hmm, I can't see the place for the "top" tier on the diagram. But all the same, the principle is "all or nothing")) ie. you can't punch a barbet ...
        1. 0
          3 February 2019 12: 41
          Quote: anzar
          Yes, but where does the armored deck?

          Armored deck despite the fact that the shells were located outside the citadel, and did not have the protection of the main horizontal and vertical defense of the LC
          Quote: anzar
          Hmm, I can't see the place for the "top" tier on the diagram.

          Just a floor above, along the walls of the barbet
          Quote: anzar
          you can not pierce the barb ...

          Why - it is impossible? :)))))) Shintoism in general and Amaterasu in particular do not seem to be forbidden :))))))
          1. 0
            3 February 2019 12: 56
            the shells were located outside the citadel, and did not have the protection of the main horizontal and vertical defense of the LC

            Well, I disagree that in a round barbet they are worse protected than in the "main" defense the same thickness.
            Why not?:)))))

            Of course it is possible, but how is it worse in comparison with breaking through the "main" belt and the explosion of a shell in a boiler room? This is what eats "all or nothing"))) - the living zones are reserved as much as possible, and if they break through, Amaterasu's will)))
            1. 0
              3 February 2019 13: 34
              Quote: anzar
              Well, I do not agree that in a round barbette they are less protected than in the "main" protection of the same thickness.

              The main one is still better - there is 343 mm and not 330 mm, plus there is either 114 mm barbet or 50 mm bevel. In 330 mm barbette there is a barbet and that's it :)
              1. 0
                3 February 2019 13: 42
                Let's continue when you will consider the reservation (in comparison))))
  14. -1
    2 February 2019 20: 21
    A lovely assessment of the accuracy of shooting - to shoot at the wake of a ship-target-in-sea-hockey-and observers somehow award hits laughing-and amazing accuracy is obtained-all shells hit the sea laughing -And on the shore did not guess to shoot? or use a radio-controlled target ship?
    1. +1
      2 February 2019 20: 35
      Colleague, what’s the problem of assessing the accuracy of a volley hit in a wake? belay

      radio-controlled target ship? - which will withstand hitting a 14 "shell lol

      The shore does not change course and speed. MATCH am
      1. -1
        2 February 2019 20: 45
        "what is the problem to assess the accuracy of the salvo hitting the wake jet?" - no problem, all the shells fell into the water laughing- "The coast does not change course and speed" -does not change-minus, but it is possible to accurately record hits- "radio-controlled target ship? -Which will withstand the hit of 14" projectiles "-and did the Yankees have it? -The Germans brought it for a penny fleet if 14 "is a lot (and then you need to check the EBR from the Germans, and the Yankees could use a trophy LK), shoot with a smaller caliber, what's the difference?
        1. +1
          2 February 2019 22: 11
          radio-controlled target ship? - which will withstand the hit of 14 "projectile" - and the Yankees had it?

          There was a former Iowa. They shoot with practical projectiles (without explosives) and therefore withstands a lot of hits))
          1. 0
            2 February 2019 22: 44
            In total, 30 large-caliber shells hit the ship, no?
        2. +2
          2 February 2019 22: 41
          colleague, ask someone for a couple of books about artillery
          (no offense) A lot will become clear to you
          1. -3
            2 February 2019 23: 04
            You have apparently already asked? -And everything became clear to you. laughing
    2. +4
      3 February 2019 09: 37
      Quote: Bone1
      and the accuracy is amazing - all the shells hit the sea

      This is how the Germans trained before the WWII. Recall the results? :)))) The Germans usually shot at the target much faster than the British.
      As for the accuracy, it is not difficult to estimate the distance from the wake to the fall of the projectile from the "target ship"
      Quote: Bone1
      Shoot on the shore did not guess?

      Why train for a fixed target?
      Quote: Bone1
      to use a radio-controlled target ship?

      such a fleet of the United States did a bunch, but they were too valuable to be used only for execution. Therefore, they were also used as towing shields (nobody abandoned them at all), etc.
      1. -3
        3 February 2019 20: 07
        "Remind the results?" - 3% in Jutland-masterpiece laughing ; “Why train with a fixed target?” - why train at all? laughing ; "target ship" - "the US Navy has made a bunch of such" - and the name of the heap is? belay - "they were too valuable" - they built, and even a bunch of targets, but it's a pity to shoot at them below? laughing
        1. +4
          4 February 2019 09: 46
          Quote: Bone1
          3% in Jutland-masterpiece

          Yes, it’s a masterpiece (by the way, some of the units fired better), but for the rest - sorry, but such a stream of consciousness cannot be attributed to constructive criticism even with the most favorable attitude towards you. And to explain the basics to a person stubborn in his errors - well, where can I get so many beads? :)))
          1. -3
            4 February 2019 17: 44
            Your problems, it’s only a pity that a person who is sufficiently competent and interested in a topic close to me does not like to use his head for its intended purpose.
            1. +3
              5 February 2019 08: 24
              Quote: Bone1
              it’s only a pity that a person who is sufficiently competent and interested in a topic close to me does not like to use his head for its intended purpose

              I won’t even ask what in your perception is considered to be the use of the head for the intended purpose. laughing Judging by the texts of your comments, one obviously did not stop at just hammering nails
  15. 0
    2 February 2019 20: 23
    At the same time, the explosive D used by the Americans as an explosive, although it was not “chimozy,” was still ready to detonate at 300-320 degrees, that is, a strong fire in the American battleship tower is fraught with a powerful explosion.

    A shell weighing 635 kg is not easy to heat up to 320 degrees, especially in a steel tower where there is nothing to burn. It would be more correct to write about the danger of detonation of all this stock in the event of a direct hit.
    1. +1
      3 February 2019 09: 39
      Quote: Saxahorse
      635 kg projectile weighing up to 320 degrees is not easy

      The projectile - yes, but in the same place below the fuse ... I do not insist, but I think - it is possible
      1. 0
        3 February 2019 19: 22
        I do not think that the shells are stored with screwed fuses. But again, with gunpowder, the flash point is also more than 300 degrees, it turns out no difference.
        1. +1
          4 February 2019 09: 43
          Quote: Saxahorse
          I do not think that the shells are stored with screwed fuses

          I don’t think either, and it’s getting access to the heat inside the shell
  16. +1
    3 February 2019 17: 21
    Interesting article. As always.
  17. +1
    3 February 2019 18: 36
    Great advantage. Very interesting article. Thank.
  18. 0
    4 February 2019 14: 29
    Thanks to the author, interesting! I learned a lot for myself ...
    Slightly cut the eye "What was meant here, the author of this article is unclear (was the forecastle deck taken into account?)," - as far as I remember the terminology - the decks are solid throughout the entire ship, and if they cover a part (forecastle, etc.) - then these are platforms .... request