A cheap replacement for Thompson: the M3 submachine gun

149
The Thompson submachine gun, mass-produced from the beginning of the 1920's, became famous as weapon gangsters, and then actively used by the American army and allies during the Second World War. It was a good sample of small arms, but its price and dimensions forced the US military to look for an adequate replacement for it. The search, which was initiated by the beginning of the Second World War, led to the creation of the M3 submachine gun, which was officially adopted in December 1942.

In the army, a new model of automatic weapons received the playful nickname "Grise Gun", or simply "Greaser" - "Grease gun", primarily because of its appearance and shape. Outwardly, the new submachine gun really resembled this tool, which was widely used in mechanical engineering for lubricating various moving parts. Like the more famous Thompson, the M3 submachine gun used .45 APC (11,43x23 mm) pistol cartridges. Moreover, the new weapon was easier to manufacture and operate, and also easier with some loss of accuracy. Especially the new submachine gun was in demand by the crews tanks and other armored vehicles, its small size was very welcome.



The development of a new submachine gun for the American army was carried out by the team of designers of the General Motors Corporation (gunsmith George Hyde of the Firearms Research Corporation was responsible for creating the submachine gun, engineer Frederick Simson of the Inland Manufacturing Division production of new items). The weapon was originally created to replace the Thomspon submachine gun as a cheaper and more technologically advanced in production. Work began in October 1942 of the year, while in April of the same year, another test of George Hyde, the M2 submachine gun, which was recommended for use but was released in a very small batch of 400, ended. This model was difficult to manufacture, in particular, it required complex metalworking operations, so it could not compete with the new submachine gun МNNXX.


Submachine gun M3


Having a simpler and more technological design, the new M3 submachine gun set a new value bar. It was significantly cheaper than the Thompson. Each Thompson submachine gun in February 1944 of the year (the cost of the model M1А1 at that moment was the lowest for all history production) cost 45 dollars, at the same time a “lubricating syringe” or “oiler”, as the M3 submachine gun was called by the US military, cost the US budget 15 dollars apiece already in 1943 year. At the same time, the novelty was lighter and smaller, the M3 without cartridges weighed 3,7 kg, while the mass of the empty Thompson М1А1 was 4,5 kg.

12 December The 1942 of the M3 submachine gun was officially adopted by the American Army under the designation “United States Submachine Gun, Cal. .45, M3 ». The upgraded version, designated M3A1, has been produced in the USA since December 1944. Until the end of World War II, 15 369 submachine guns of this model were assembled, another 33 200 М3А1 was released already in the years of the Korean War. Received the nickname “lubricant syringe” in the army for its unusual appearance, the new submachine gun justified its nickname by the fact that it required constant lubrication to ensure the reliability of its units and mechanisms. Especially for this purpose, the designers even placed a small size integrated lubricator in the handle М3А1, it was closed with a screw cap in the lower part of the handle of the weapon.

About a thousand submachine guns were produced in the caliber 9-mm chambered for 9x19 mm Parabellum. This version received the designation "US 9 mm SMG". This submachine gun could also be equipped with a silencer from Bell Laboratories. In 1944, in this version, weapons were supplied to the fighters of the Office of Strategic Services. Also in a limited series, special kits were produced for changing the caliber of the submachine gun from the .45 ACP cartridge to the 9mm Parabellum. The sets included a barrel, a bolt, a magazine receiver adapter and a return spring. In this case, the shops from the British-made STEN submachine guns were used with the M3. During the Second World War, the M3 submachine guns were actively used by the American infantry, reconnaissance units, and also tank units.


Submachine gun M3, released in January 1944


The automatic machine gun M3, designed to replace at the front of the machine guns Thompson, worked on the use of recoil with the free gate. Drummer was located motionless in the mirror shutter. Shooting from the M3 was carried out with an open shutter. The body of the weapon was stamped and made of sheet steel. The M3 submachine gun did not have either plastic or wooden parts in its design. The barrel of the weapon almost the entire length was outside the bolt box, the protective cover was not provided. A threaded bushing was pressed onto the breech breech, which was screwed into the gate box when the weapon was assembled. The location of the barrel in line with the butt allowed the shooter to more easily control the impact when shooting. In later versions of the M3A1 submachine gun, a conical flame arrester was mounted on the barrel.

The trigger was located at the bottom of the bolt box, while the submachine gun had only one firing mode - automatic. At the same time, the relatively low rate of fire (up to 450 shots per minute) allowed even inexperienced shooters to fire with single shots. The trigger mechanism included a trigger with a spring, the trigger pull and the trigger lever (sear). The loading mechanism was located in a separate box, it was attached to the bottom of the bolt box with a special trigger guard. The loading mechanism of the M3 submachine gun consisted of a loading handle with a spring, a lever and a pusher.

The distinctive features of the model attributed the cocking handle. It was cocked backwards, like the handle of a Maxim machine gun. When the shooter retracts the loading handle, the lever turns, and the pusher connected to the lever retracts the bolt of the submachine gun. Such a cocking pattern proved to be not reliable enough in the future. As a result, in the М3А1 model, it was decided to abandon it, replacing the cocking knob with a hole in the bolt. As a result of the changes for the cocking, the soldier had to hook the hole with his finger and move the bolt back. In addition, on the submachine gun М3А1 increased the size of the window, designed for ejection sleeves. The spring-loaded cover of the window for ejection of the sleeves also served as a fuse, blocking the bolt in the front or rear position when it was closed. A reflector was welded to the front of the loading mechanism box.


Submachine gun M3A1 late release with a conical flame arrester, right view


The sights of the weapon were simple and included an unregulated front sight and a diopter sight designed for a fixed shooting distance - 100 yards. A retractable shoulder support made of steel wire was used as the butt. In this case, the shoulder support could perform several functions at once. His right rod, being separated from the weapon, could be used as a ramrod, and in the back of the shoulder rest of the M3A1 submachine gun was a clip to facilitate the loading of ammunition magazine.

The experience of the combat use of the MZ submachine gun demonstrated to the military that the weapon was not as perfect as it was thought during the tests, various changes had to be made to its design. In addition, the developers believed that they could further simplify the design, which will speed up the production process and further reduce the cost of production of the model. So, already in December 1944, an updated modification of the submachine gun was introduced, which received the designation MZA1. It differed from the original in the absence of a cocking mechanism using a special lever. As noted above, to prepare the weapon for firing, it was necessary to insert a finger into the hole in the bolt and pull the bolt back. For this, designers needed to increase the size of the hole for ejection of a spent cartridge case, and also to use a lid on a hinge, in which a metal pin remained to lock the bolt in the front and rear positions.

An oiler was inserted into the pistol grip; in addition, other minor changes appeared in the weapon design. Parts of the weapon were given such a form that allowed them to be used as tools for assembling and disassembling individual components and mechanisms М3А1. The updated submachine gun, like its predecessor, was completed with a box magazine on 30 of cartridges with a staggered arrangement of cartridges and a single-row output. The store was the subject of complaints of soldiers throughout the entire service of the weapon, it was difficult to equip it, it was also often jammed, but the designers considered the solution to the problem costly and left everything as is.

A cheap replacement for Thompson: the M3 submachine gun

Submachine gun M3A1 with an open window for ejection sleeves


It was originally planned that the new M3 submachine gun could be produced in such quantities that it would replace Thompson submachine guns in the army. But due to unforeseen delays in production, as well as time spent on eliminating the deficiencies identified during actual operation of the weapon, the M3 did not become a full-fledged replacement of Thompson in the US Army during World War II, and the purchase of Thompson’s submachine guns continued until February 1944 of the year. At the same time, the M3 (as, indeed, the British Sten) never enjoyed the love of ordinary infantrymen, who gave the submachine gun a scornful and humorous nickname. Much more popular with American soldiers was the M1 carbine, which was less effective in melee, but more like a real weapon.

Total from 1940 to 1944. American industry has released the 1 387 134 Thompson and 622 163 submachine gun M3 / M3A1. One released submachine gun M3 accounted for approximately 2,2 "Thompson." At the same time, a considerable part of the Thompsons in the framework of the Lend-Lease program turned out to be in the USSR - around 135 thousand guns, which were supplied mainly as additional equipment for various military equipment.

After the end of World War II, thousands of American-made M3 submachine guns were scattered around the world, and weapons were actively exported. Due to the simplicity of the design, the M3 and M3-1 models could be maintained in working order even by a person with a minimum set of craft skills. And some states, for example, Argentina and China, even produced a “grease gun” serially. Weapons were also massively used during the Chinese civil war by supporters of the Republic of China, and since 1950 they began to produce weapons on the island of Taiwan. American soldiers fought with M3 submachine guns in Korea and Vietnam. In the infantry, it remained in service until the 1960-ies, and in the tank units of the United States, these weapons were in service until the beginning of the 1980-ies.


American soldiers of the 14 Panzer Division shoot a M3 submachine gun at the castle gate of the Hammelburg concentration camp


Tactical and technical characteristics of the machine gun M3:
Caliber: 11,43 mm.
Cartridge: .45 ACP (mm 11,43x23).
Weight without cartridges: 3,63 kg (М3А1 - 3,47 kg).
Length: 570 / 745 mm (with folded / unfolded butt).
Barrel length: 203 mm.
Rate of Fire: 450 shots / min.
Initial bullet speed: 280 m / s.
Effective range: 100 yards (91 m).
Shop: boxed on 30 cartridges.

Information sources:
https://www.armoury-online.ru/articles/smg/us/m3-m3a1
http://weaponland.ru/publ/11_43_mm_pistolet_pulemet_obr_1943_g_m_3/7-1-0-1458
https://smallarms.ru/article?arms=m3
http://zonwar.ru/pp/m3a1.html
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149 comments
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  1. +2
    27 January 2019 06: 59
    The gun, which easily bent the barrel.
    1. +4
      27 January 2019 11: 12
      hi
      Quote: Author: Sergey Yuferev
      gunsmith George Hyde from Firearms Research Corporation was responsible for creating a submachine gun

      Mr. Hyde is also known for developing a simplified version of Thompson's software in 30's.
      1. +4
        27 January 2019 11: 12
        Quote: Author: Sergey Yuferev
        worked on the use of recoil with the free gate.

        It is worth noting that the M3 was developed with an eye on the Wall and Mr-40,
        however, no technical solutions were borrowed from them.
        In contrast to the British and German PP, the M3 has a slide valve moving along the 2-m guide rods.
        And for Wall and MP-40, the bolt moved along the cut-outs in the receiver (expensive machining on machines).

        1. +6
          27 January 2019 11: 16
          Quote: Author: Sergey Yuferev
          This submachine gun could also be equipped with a silencer from Bell Laboratories.



          M3 with PBS (Silent Shooting Device) from Bell Laboratories.


          PBS disassembled.


          M3 with PBS and fabric cover.
          1. +4
            27 January 2019 12: 51
            hi I add that in the Chinese version the direction of the rifling of the barrel was replaced.
            1. +4
              27 January 2019 13: 02
              Quote: bouncyhunter
              I will add that in the Chinese version the direction of the rifling of the trunk was replaced

              Strongly welcome!
              Add that butt used as a wrench
              1. +4
                27 January 2019 20: 51
                Quote: Mister X
                the butt was used as a wrench

                good Yes, it’s always nice to talk to a specialist. Michael, my respect! soldier
          2. +1
            27 January 2019 22: 25
            Quote: Mister X
            M3 with PBS (Silent Shooting Device) from Bell Laboratories.

            This is not quite a silent shooting device, it is a removable barrel with an integrated silencer, i.e. To transfer the M3 to silent mode, it was necessary to remove the standard barrel and install the barrel assembly with integrated PBS.
            1. 0
              28 January 2019 11: 44
              Quote: gross kaput
              to transfer the M3 to silent mode, it was necessary to remove the stock barrel and install the barrel assembly with integrated CBM.

              hi
              Thank you for the amendment. That's right.
              It is believed that the assembly of trunks with integrated PBS was carried out at the factory High Standard Firearms.
              It was produced about 1 thousand such barrels.
              1. +4
                28 January 2019 18: 48
                The perforated barrel with a fastening nut and a protective cap of the breech were made by General Motors (or rather its Guide Lamp Division) and the silencer body, mesh roll, mesh washers and final assembly were made by High Standard Manufacturing Company
                1000 trunks produced. During the Vietnam War, additional kits were produced, for example, the "silent" barrels for the M3 with the Marlin and Ithaca markings are known.




                1. +1
                  28 January 2019 19: 21
                  Quote: gross kaput
                  Perforated barrel made General Motors

                  Quote: gross kaput
                  muffler housing and final assembly produced High Standard

                  Quote: gross kaput
                  During the Vietnam War, additional kits were produced.

                  This is what I understand: a person is interested, and most importantly - he remembers!
                  Why aren't you posting?
                  1. 0
                    28 January 2019 21: 47
                    Quote: Mister X
                    and most importantly - remember!

                    I don’t remember the details, but the computer, books and magazines, and I just remember in which particular book, magazine or file on my computer lies detailed information smile
                    Quote: Mister X
                    Why aren't you posting?

                    Honestly, I don’t have much time, I can’t make money from it, so I began to write an article on American noiselessness of WWII times for the soul, but I didn’t finish it, and there’s a file summary, waiting for me to find strength and inspiration to ennoble it. smile
                    1. 0
                      28 January 2019 22: 07
                      Quote: gross kaput
                      I don’t remember the details, but the computer, books and magazines

                      For many years, they quoted me a famous lawyer:
                      - A good lawyer does not remember everything by heart, he knows where to look ...

                      I admit I usually act the same way.
                      Just this time I hurried with a sensational comment.

                      Quote: gross kaput
                      I began to write an article on the American no-noise times of WWII

                      So these photos from the reserve for a future article?
                      1. +1
                        28 January 2019 22: 31
                        This is just a photo from a folder from the section "silent weapons" / "M3 silenced" and they will be included in the article and whether my article will ever be there yet. smile
                        I can share the performance characteristics of this silent shooter,
                        initial speed with a standard cartridge 235 m / s
                        Maximum barrel pressure 20000 psi
                        Muffler outlet pressure 200 psi
                        Barrel length with silencer 360 mm
                        Barrel weight with silencer - 1200 g
                        Muffler volume 160 cm3
                        The total volume not occupied by the grid - 67cm3
                        The diameter of the channel for the passage of the bullet 12,7 mm
                        Weight of software with a silencer without magazine - 4,3 kg
                        The maximum sound volume is 107 decibels (the sound volume from a regular M3 is 130 decibels)
                      2. 0
                        28 January 2019 22: 42
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        I can share this silent shooter

                        Thank you!
                        Thanks to your comments, this article has become much more complete and informative)
        2. +1
          27 January 2019 22: 23
          Quote: Mister X
          And with the Wall and MP-40, the shutter moved along the cutouts in the receiver

          What cutouts did your shutter move there? Cylindrical shutter in the pipe - what other cutouts do you need there for the direction of movement? The cocking handle helped the axle to orient the shutter correctly, but besides it, the reflector and bends of the store also worked to prevent the shutter from turning.
          Quote: Mister X
          (expensive machining).

          Don’t tell my slippers - on MP 40, the cutout for the cocking handles turned out in the die-cutting at the first stage of stamping the workpiece, on the wall a primitive milling operation performed in one pass, but drilling two non-axial channels in the M3 shutter head is much more expensive both in time and in tool wear.
          1. 0
            28 January 2019 11: 49
            Quote: gross kaput
            How do you have the shutter moving there? Cylindrical stopper in the pipe - what other cuts do you need for direction of travel?

            You're right,
            Unlike the MP-38, on the MP-40, the gate case bodies have already been stamped, and the milled grooves (MP-38) replaced the 4 with extruded longitudinal stiffeners.

            Quote: gross kaput
            Do not mix my sneakers - on the 40 MP the cutout under the cocking handles was obtained by cutting in the first stage of stamping the workpiece

            And here you are right.
            The production of the MP-38 was more expensive (Chris Bishop, Small Arms).
            And in the MP-40, machining on machines was minimized, stamping began to be used en masse.
            This is what it means to move away from military topics on 2 ...

            1. +1
              28 January 2019 18: 02
              Quote: Mister X
              and milled grooves (MP-38)

              The grooves in the MP38 go along the outer part of the box, serve solely to facilitate and do not perform any function other than that.
              1. 0
                28 January 2019 19: 38
                And then judging by the photo shutter you are right.
  2. +5
    27 January 2019 07: 20
    Yes, it was a normal thresher, cheap and cheerful. There are still kits "in oil", i.e. in packaging, stored. Not very aesthetically pleasing, "but cheap, reliable and practical" ©
    1. +3
      27 January 2019 08: 13
      After a friend of mine, my father drove Bender through the forests after the war. He said that Thomson is a noble meat grinder.
      1. +7
        27 January 2019 12: 41
        100 rounds of .45 ASR in paper bundles weigh 2 kg 200 grams, 200 rounds - 4,4 kg, 400 rounds - 8,8 kg, plus Tommy-gan himself.

        With an average height of 160 cm and a weight of 60 kg of those men of the military generation, it was not as convenient as wearing PPPs with shops, even though the .45 ACP cartridge did not penetrate even a light wooden barrier from boards.
        1. -3
          27 January 2019 12: 47
          Quote: Horse, people and soul
          Plus still carry Tommy-gan himself

          If you want to live, you’ll still drag it.
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          With an average height of 160 cm and a weight of 60 kg of those men of the military generation

          No need to invent nonsense.
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          it was not as convenient as wearing PPPs with shops

          And you could wear an ax behind his belt. This is even more convenient.
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          Despite the fact that the .45 ACP cartridge did not even penetrate a light wooden barrier from boards.

          God, what nonsense!
          1. +4
            27 January 2019 13: 09
            Tommy gun or PPS was the choice, despite the fact that Lendlizovskie Tommy were in sets of Lendliz tanks, and PPSh and PPS troops were supplied regularly. To get Tommy, instead of PPSh or PPS, you had to turn yourselves inside with fur, while carrying on yourself twice as much weight of amateurs at the front had never been in any country.

            The generation of tall and heavy "accelerators" is a post-war phenomenon since the 1960s. Recruitment into tank troops, even at this time in the military registration and enlistment offices, was sorted out in our current understanding of stunted 160 cm tall.

            How .45 ACP works I know well. My first pistol was in this caliber and I finally sold it last year. Regarding 9x19, and not speaking for 7.62x25, an American punches even a barrier from boards very poorly.

            God what nonsense


            Be careful with the words, comrade.
            1. -13
              27 January 2019 13: 17
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              Regarding 9x19, and not speaking for 7.62x25, an American punches even a barrier from boards very poorly.

              Pistol and submachine gun, this is not PTR. They have their own criteria for suitability for military service.
              Weapons with a TT cartridge have zero suitability. Those. for the army, this weapon was not suitable at all. Because of the sports cartridge.
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              comrade

              Is it necessary to call names?
            2. Alf
              +3
              27 January 2019 15: 49
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              Lendlizovskie Tommy were in sets Lendlizovskih tanks, and PPSh and PPS troops were supplied regularly.

              Tankers ...



              1. +3
                27 January 2019 21: 01
                And are there photographs from 1945 with the Tommigans of Soviet soldiers?

                In Murmansk, it was probably easier for Lendlizovskie Tommy to equip sailors than to transport from the Urals from the evacuated factories during this very period of evacuation.
                1. Alf
                  +1
                  27 January 2019 21: 51
                  Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                  And are there photographs from 1945 with the Tommigans of Soviet soldiers?

                  No, apparently, the cartridges burned everything.
        2. 0
          27 January 2019 23: 54
          FEW WHO HANDED TOMMY GAN HOLDING. THEREFORE AND WRITTEN AND WRITTEN REVIEWS. HEAVY HE IS, AND WITH A STOPPED STORE EVEN HEAVY DIFFERENTLY.
    2. +2
      27 January 2019 12: 52
      Quote: inkass_98
      Yes, the thresher was normal, cheap and cheerful.

      Oh, these Americans and their cheap weapons.
      Each Thompson submachine gun in February 1944 (the cost of the M1A1 model at that moment became the lowest in the history of production) cost $ 45

      1 double Bofors = 1 thousand. Thompson.
      1 Liberator = 6,5 thousand Thompson.
      1 CRT Baltimore = 900 thousand. Thompson.
      1 Iowa LC - 2 million Thompson.
  3. +15
    27 January 2019 08: 23
    In the besieged Leningrad, PPS 43 was created, which is much more reliable than the butterdish and Stan, although PPSh 41 did not become a full-fledged replacement, but many PPS 43 are considered the best submachine gun of the Second World War.
    1. -22
      27 January 2019 11: 21
      Quote: Ravil_Asnafovich
      but at the same time many PPP 43 is considered the best submachine gun of the second world war.

      Among the "dummies" are not versed in weapons.
      1. +7
        27 January 2019 19: 27
        Quote: vwwv20
        Quote: Ravil_Asnafovich
        but at the same time many PPP 43 is considered the best submachine gun of the second world war.

        Among the "dummies" are not versed in weapons.

        Father, a veteran of the Second World War, said that they preferred the PPS to other machines. And the "dummies" in arms had little chance of surviving until the Victory. "So who is the deer here?" (C)
        1. -3
          28 January 2019 00: 46
          Quote: Doliva63
          Father, WWII veteran, told

          And which of the gunsmiths are these bikes generally interested in?
          Was he a weapons designer?
          No?
          Well, he knows, none of the experts are interested.
      2. +1
        28 January 2019 03: 58
        Sorry, I have a question for you, dear to me, although I already asked it a long time ago, maybe for you or maybe not - where exactly can I read about what the 762x25 cartridge is sports? further - where are the tables or any other documents that clearly define the boundaries between sporting and military cartridges? and the third question, please open the evolution of this cartridge, tell the full family tree about his grandfather and father of brothers and uncles, and after what did they differ and what changed? ... two words cannot be thrown out like that - a sports cartridge .. and then talk about its supposedly small caliber deadness and no wound ballistics ... and at the end of the end, write the article yourself and lay it out ...
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. 0
            29 January 2019 00: 10
            found lived and spat out ... and if you are such a great specialist then all the same Borchardt and not Borchart ... and now if it’s not difficult for you please compare the ballistic performance and the initial velocity of the Borchardt bullets and by the way not 762 but 765x25 with TT 762x25 cartridge .. you will be surprised .. and if you already draw a parallel with Borchardt’s cartridge with a little smoky gunpowder, then his direct descendant is 765x21 pairs, comparable in performance and, by the way, perfectly killing homo-sensei and armed with Germany and Finland .. he didn’t make the caliber after the Germans and the mass of the bullet, since it was precisely the stopping effect that was more important for the pistol and Luger’s cartridge gave birth to 9x19 pairs .. yes the Germans found a middle ground and almost the whole world followed ... Mauser and after that the advice did not begin to reduce the internal volume of the cartridge case transition to smokeless more powerful gunpowder and got a cartridge 20-25% more powerful with all the increased indicators that came from here .. and now the most important thing for the Germans already the act was a good powerful 9mm cartridge and that is what prompted them and many others to make PP exactly under this cartridge, which was established in production and adopted for service, while the councils adopting a new pistol cartridge were much later repelled not only from the caliber but also from the fact that this the cartridge will be used in the newly created weapons (infantry military PP and not the police as it is now) ... remember when the TT cartridge was adopted and when the first developments of the PP appeared .. yes our gunsmiths considered that a new type of weapon as a PP should have a cartridge with more better ballistics thereby allowing the battle to be fought at slightly greater distances ... for example, the same MP38-40 provided the opportunity to see the battle at distances of 150-200 meters when the PPSh and IPSS worked at distances of up to 300 meters at the same time the PP chambered for 9 pairs if you hit a more reliable target hit ... here you are and the whole alignment won in the distance lost in terminal ballistics as you said ... well, only oh don’t do la la about a dead and worthless cartridge that doesn’t kill .. it kills the TT cartridge very well and there was a lot of evidence for this in the 90s and the veterans didn’t particularly complain about the amazing ability of the TT cartridge .. a simple example was my relative who fought in the regiment intelligence and used MP instead of PPSh, but after the appearance of PPS, he turned to him .. although he called it Walter P38 the best gun and thought that TT was not lying around with it .. the person went through the whole war by the way ... that's how then we draw conclusions and pour less mud on Russian-Soviet weapons ...
  4. +2
    27 January 2019 09: 18
    For tankers, that's it! Climb into the tank with the "Thompson", you will climb in, but quickly leave it with such a "toy" ...
    1. 0
      27 January 2019 12: 45
      Threw out the hatch ...

      wassat
    2. +1
      27 January 2019 13: 16
      In Lendliz tanks, Tommy was included. What happened to them later is a dark story. How many of these Lendliz tanks survived until 1945, and how many Tommy were in hand during the assault on Berlin.
      1. +2
        27 January 2019 15: 36
        In Lendliz tanks, Tommy was included. What happened to them later is a dark story. How many of these Lendliz tanks survived until 1945, and how many Tommy were in hand during the assault on Berlin.

        That is, while there was ammunition, Thompson M1928A1 was a weapon. Ammunition ended ran out of weapons of the USSR Armed Forces. Thank you, a very interesting thought ... and entertaining. smile


        A rare photo of Soviet tank crews with the Stunt M3A1, in American headsets, with the Thompson M1928A1 submachine gun and the M1919A4 machine gun. American technology was left fully leased by Lend-Lease - with equipment and even small arms for the crew.
        1. +2
          27 January 2019 21: 05
          Well, one way or another, after the war, there were both Tommy and 1911 and .45 ASR cartridges in the warehouses of the mob stock. Even in the salt mines near Donetsk in 2014 they were found and taken out, when at the very beginning of the militia there was nothing to arm.
        2. +1
          27 January 2019 21: 49
          American tanks were delivered to the USSR during the most difficult period of the war. But after Stalingrad and Kursk, the troops already had enough new tanks and there was no point in transferring heavy Tommy from broken and burned weakly protected and breaking Lendliz tanks into them. Moreover, if the tank was on fire, then the crew did not always survive. So the Lendliz tanks gradually ended, and the crews got rid of Tommy by actively changing them to the PPS, which, with ammunition, weighed half as much as Tommy.

          Tommy, 1911 and cartridges still probably lie in the stockpiles of the reserve. At least in the Donbass in salt mines, the militias took enough in 2014, when there was a shortage of all weapons.
          1. 0
            28 January 2019 21: 04
            So the Lendliz tanks gradually ended, and the crews got rid of Tommy by actively changing them to the PPS, which, with ammunition, weighed half as much as Tommy.

            Rather, purely mathematically, they changed to PPSh which weighed 3,6 kg without cartridges and 5,3 kg with cartridges (with a drum for 71 cartridges).
            "The simplicity and manufacturability of the design of the PPSh made it possible to organize its production at many, including non-specialized, factories. For example, at the Moscow Automobile Plant named after Stalin (ZIS) during the war, more than a million of these submachine guns were produced, and their total production was more than 6 million. " Source: https://smallarms.ru/article?arms=ppsh&ld=16&pg=1


            PPSh-41 assault rifle assembly conveyor at the Stalin factory in Moscow.
            While PPPs released significantly less.
            "In total, before the break of the blockade in January 1944, 46 PPS units of both modifications were produced." Source: https://smallarms.ru/article?arms=pps&ld=572&pg=16
  5. -2
    27 January 2019 10: 57
    In the army, a new model of automatic weapons received the playful nickname "Grise Gan", or simply "Greaser" - "Lubricating syringe" ..
    at the same time a “grease gun” or “oiler”, as the M3 submachine gun was called ..
    ... He received the nickname "grease gun" in the army for his unusual appearance

    The article is interesting, but the author did not note that the M3 received the nickname "grease gun" ... wassat

    Material about this weapon was on VO in 2013: https://topwar.ru/27876-pistolet-pulemet-m3.html
  6. -12
    27 January 2019 11: 20
    Quote: Yuferev Sergey
    A cheap replacement for Thompson: the M3 submachine gun

    The best PP wartime of those years.
    In peacetime, the best was Thompson's PP. It was in service with the US Army until 1971. By that time, everyone had forgotten about the MP40 and PPSh.
    Quote: Yuferev Sergey
    At the same time, the relatively low rate of fire (up to 450 rounds per minute) allowed even inexperienced shooters to fire with single shots.

    For Soviet PP, moderators could not do this. In the MP40 he was.
    Quote: Yuferev Sergey
    At the same time, the M3 (as, incidentally, the British Sten) never enjoyed the love of ordinary infantrymen, who gave the submachine gun contemptuous and comic nicknames.

    The infantrymen were better suited by the Garanda rifle. Precisely because they are foot soldiers.
    They were not armed with M3 and Thompson. This weapon was in the arsenal of other soldiers, not foot soldiers.
    1. +6
      27 January 2019 12: 49
      For Soviet PP, moderators could not do this. In the MP40 he was.


      The Germans froze it, and by order of the Wehrmacht in frosts, it was PRESCRIBED on a frozen machine to be preliminarily cast with a hot stream.
      1. -4
        27 January 2019 12: 50
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        The Germans froze it, and by order of the Wehrmacht in frosts, it was PRESCRIBED on a frozen machine to be preliminarily cast with a hot stream.

        Yeah. From a leather hose.
        In fact, do not tell tales.
        1. +4
          27 January 2019 12: 54
          It is from a leather hose.

          laughing
    2. +3
      27 January 2019 13: 00
      Quote: vwwv20
      The best PP wartime of those years.

      For .45 fans like you.

      On the other hand, the American soldiers did not understand why they were trying to foist some kind of crap on them instead of a normal Thompson, which was released 3 times more than this one. Unlike the British with Sten, the need to issue the Americans for the 4th year of the war (and for the 6th year of WWII as a whole) an artifact of the "special period" raises great doubts.
      1. -9
        27 January 2019 13: 03
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        On the other hand, the American soldiers did not understand why they were trying to foist some kind of crap on them instead of a normal Thompson, which was released 3 times more than this one. Unlike the British with Sten, the need to issue the Americans for the 4th year of the war (and for the 6th year of WWII as a whole) an artifact of the "special period" raises great doubts.

        As far as I understand, grease fittings were only given to BTT crews and other support personnel.
        For those who were supposed to fight, motorized rifles, for example, were given full-fledged Thompsons.
    3. +5
      27 January 2019 13: 36
      I understand you, dear. You want to say that the best CARTRIDGE was 11mm? So what ??? Not at all ... I won’t even say anything. I think everyone understood.
      1. -9
        27 January 2019 14: 27
        Quote: mirag2
        I understand you, dear.

        I doubt it very much.
        Quote: mirag2
        Do you want to say that the best CARTRIDGE was 11mm? So what ???

        In the pre-Chronic era, that’s exactly how.
        Quote: mirag2
        Not at all ... I won’t even say anything. I think everyone understood.

        I did not understand.
        Here explain to me, dear, a bullet of small arms, of the same software, how does it kill an enemy soldier? The mechanism of the process, so to speak, if possible, explain?
        I think you can’t explain.
        Then you, dear, it is better to keep quiet modestly on this subject. And the right to draw conclusions is left to those who understand this.
    4. +8
      27 January 2019 16: 23
      "The best PP of the wartime of those years" - this statement is simply ridiculous. The best wartime gun for the Americans can still be said as a cheap replacement for Thompson, but for the Americans he was late for World War II. As a cheap ersatz replacement, it was not the best, there were cheap and technological samples and better.

      "By that time, they had already forgotten about the MP40 and the PPSh," of course they forgot, because they were already in service with the MP5, ultrasound and AK (with a folding stock) or AKSU, only the Americans, for some reason, were poor in comparison with these M3 and Thompson machines.

      I’m wondering how they fired from M3 for 100 meters and further - taking into account the ballistics of the bullet and the diopter sight, it is necessary to aim higher than the target, while the target can be closed with sights - it is very convenient and positively affects the accuracy of shooting. And when shooting at a distance from 0 to 100 m, the use of a diopter sight is not the best option (vision is very tunneling), open sights are better here.
      1. -11
        27 January 2019 16: 55
        Quote: Sergey_G_M
        As a cheap ersatz replacement, it was not the best, there were cheaper and better models.

        It is this cheap ersatz that is meant by "wartime".
        Quote: Sergey_G_M
        were armed with MP5, ultrasound and AK (with a folding butt) or AKSU, only Americans for some reason remained wretched in comparison with these machine guns M3 and Thompson.

        And who told you that this is all better than Thompson? The same AKM, the better?
        For some reason, Thompson was recognized in the world. But AKM was even expelled from the SA in the 70s. And in general, all weapons on a very brilliant cartridge of 7,62x39 mm. With the knee.
        Quote: Sergey_G_M
        I’m wondering how they fired from M3 at 100 meters and further

        Further 100 mm PP is not required.
        Quote: Sergey_G_M
        taking into account the ballistics of the bullet and the diopter sight, you need to aim higher than the target, while the target can be closed with sights - it’s very convenient and positively affects the accuracy of shooting

        But they shot, do not hesitate. Thompson's sight was marked up to 500 yards. And this ballistics is only a little worse.
        1. +4
          27 January 2019 18: 01
          “Who told you that this is all better than Thompson? The same AKM, the better?
          For some reason, Thompson was recognized in the world. And AKM was even expelled from the SA in the 70s. And in general, all weapons are on a helluva lot of genius cartridge 7,62x39 mm. With the knee. "

          Well, only a person for whom PP Topmson is a fetish can say this. AKM was not expelled from the SA, but replaced by a more appropriate time with another sample. And not Thompson, but the AKM on the ingenious 7,62x39 cartridge was recognized all over the world and it remains to be seen how much time will be recognized and used.

          "But they did shoot, don't hesitate. Thompson's scope was marked up to 500 yards. And this one has only slightly worse ballistics."

          The sight of the M3 is constant and not adjustable, which really limits its use in terms of firing range, in relation to other military warships the M3 is completely ersatz.

          Regarding wartime software, prices:
          Thompson - 3 M3
          Thompson - 15 Walls
          Thompson - how many faculty members are hard to say, but I think at the wall level
          After the war, the armament of Finland and Germany was adopted alteration of the teaching staff under 9 * 19, not M3 or walls, and it should be noted that they are produced, and not distributed like British walls from military stocks.
          1. -11
            27 January 2019 18: 09
            Quote: Sergey_G_M
            AKM was not expelled from the SA, but replaced by a more appropriate time with another sample.

            And these are not the same eggs, only in profile?
            Quote: Sergey_G_M
            And not Thompson, but the AKM on the ingenious 7,62x39 cartridge was recognized all over the world and it remains to be seen how much time will be recognized and used.

            Of course. After all, it was the USSR that made millions of AKMs at the expense of the population of the USSR, and then, when it became clear that it was UG, it distributed them to friends around the world. Friends are beggars. therefore, AKM will be used for a long time.
            Only such "appreciatives" are worth a penny.
            Quote: Sergey_G_M
            in relation to other military warships, the M3 is completely ersatz.

            And what an ersatz PPSh, you can’t even imagine. Because of the sports cartridge, he could shoot far.
            But there was a problem. Because of the same cartridge, he killed badly. And for army weapons this is important.
            Quote: Sergey_G_M
            After the war, the armament of Finland and Germany is accepted alteration of the faculty under 9 * 19

            You can tell this famous Soviet bike to your grandmothers on benches. They nod to you in response. But not me.
            1. +4
              27 January 2019 18: 44
              Quote: vwwv20
              And these are not the same eggs, only in profile?

              No.

              Quote: vwwv20
              Of course. After all, it was the USSR that made millions of AKMs at the expense of the population of the USSR, and then, when it became clear that it was UG, it distributed them to friends around the world. Friends are beggars. therefore, AKM will be used for a long time.
              Only such "appreciatives" are worth a penny.

              I will not argue about the bloody regime that drank all the juices from the people, I strongly disagree with this.
              Now they are using Kalashnikovs not only from the Soviet Union, you will probably be surprised, but the production of assault rifles and ammunition for them has been mastered in many countries outside the USSR, they could produce something similar to the super-duper Thompson, but for some reason they did not want to.
            2. +5
              27 January 2019 18: 54
              Quote: vwwv20
              You can tell this famous Soviet bike to your grandmothers on benches. They nod to you in response. But not me.


              Finnish Tikkakoski M44 - no, this is not at all a refinement of the teaching staff chambered for 9x19, everyone can see this is a completely different software! (sarcasm)
            3. +4
              27 January 2019 19: 36
              Quote: vwwv20
              Quote: Sergey_G_M
              AKM was not expelled from the SA, but replaced by a more appropriate time with another sample.

              And these are not the same eggs, only in profile?
              Quote: Sergey_G_M
              And not Thompson, but the AKM on the ingenious 7,62x39 cartridge was recognized all over the world and it remains to be seen how much time will be recognized and used.

              Of course. After all, it was the USSR that made millions of AKMs at the expense of the population of the USSR, and then, when it became clear that it was UG, it distributed them to friends around the world. Friends are beggars. therefore, AKM will be used for a long time.
              Only such "appreciatives" are worth a penny.
              Quote: Sergey_G_M
              in relation to other military warships, the M3 is completely ersatz.

              And what an ersatz PPSh, you can’t even imagine. Because of the sports cartridge, he could shoot far.
              But there was a problem. Because of the same cartridge, he killed badly. And for army weapons this is important.
              Quote: Sergey_G_M
              After the war, the armament of Finland and Germany is accepted alteration of the faculty under 9 * 19

              You can tell this famous Soviet bike to your grandmothers on benches. They nod to you in response. But not me.

              AKM in the AKMSN2 version is still in service. Where do such "smart guys" come from? Apparently, from the "sloped" laughing
            4. Alf
              +1
              27 January 2019 20: 01
              Quote: vwwv20
              Quote: Sergey_G_M
              After the war, the armament of Finland and Germany is accepted alteration of the faculty under 9 * 19

              You can tell this famous Soviet bike to your grandmothers on benches. They nod to you in response. But not me.

              1. -1
                28 January 2019 00: 44
                Quote: Alf
                .

                Have you decided to add text nonsense with a picture?
                Quote: Doliva63
                AKM in the AKMSN2 version is still in service.

                And what, directly in the form of the main weapon, as in the 60s?
                And where does so much stubborn out of the blue come from?
                1. Alf
                  0
                  28 January 2019 17: 16
                  Quote: erty
                  Quote: Alf
                  .

                  Have you decided to add text nonsense with a picture?

                  Are there any objections to the case? Or decided to fart in a puddle?
                2. 0
                  28 January 2019 21: 40
                  Quote: erty
                  Quote: Alf
                  .

                  Have you decided to add text nonsense with a picture?
                  Quote: Doliva63
                  AKM in the AKMSN2 version is still in service.

                  And what, directly in the form of the main weapon, as in the 60s?
                  And where does so much stubborn out of the blue come from?

                  In the form of the main weapon of officers and senior intelligence officers of the special forces, if that. Few? In my time, in the Exercise of control firing, running growths were 350-450 m., They were amazed confidently day and night.
                  And it is necessary - I screwed PBS, it is necessary - I put the optics. You are talking about something you don’t know at all.
    5. 0
      28 January 2019 21: 36
      Why PPS-43 moderator? Rate of fire 600 rpm. PPSh-41 - 1000 rpm. MP-40 with a moderator of 400 rpm.
  7. +3
    27 January 2019 12: 36
    In option A1, it’s kind of dumb to stick your finger in the shutter to recharge after shooting one store. And if you have already shot several stores, then the shutter will be hotter and hotter.

    I read somewhere that American soldiers tried by hook or by crook to "drown" these oil cans in the hope of getting other weapons.
    1. +7
      27 January 2019 13: 18
      Good afternoon, colleague! hi

      In our department, I already wrote about this once, there was an M3A1, a gift to Marshal Sudets from the Cubans for organizing air defense. So there - yes, on the massive shutter there are two notches of different sizes, one, larger, for cocking, and the "tooth" of the cover entered the smaller one when closing, providing protection. Before drilling (alas) the barrel, they took it to the Forensic Research Institute for shooting. I liked the machine, when firing short, the barrel does not lead to the side at all. Yes, and the PP itself was taken from the battle as a trophy at Playa Giron. Brand new, if the fly was sitting, it was only in slippers. smile
      1. +6
        27 January 2019 21: 19
        Good afternoon!

        Trophy weapons are always treated with more respect than habitual to your own.

        Americans and Russians drove German home. The Germans enjoyed using Russian. The Americans brought home Japanese swords.
        The Russians in Vietnam sought to obtain American samples, while the Americans trudged from Kalash.

        Natural process.

        hi
        1. -3
          28 January 2019 00: 41
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          Russians drove home German

          Soviet carried. Do not confuse Russian with Soviet.
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          Russians in Vietnamese sought to get American designs

          The Soviet sought to receive.
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          The Germans enjoyed using Russian.

          Soviet was used by the Germans.
          Soviet, this is far from Russian. And the Russians are not at all Soviet.
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          and the Americans trudged with Kalash.

          Why is this a fright?
  8. +4
    27 January 2019 14: 30
    in my opinion, an attempt to determine the best PP is obviously doomed to failure, because the requirements for the first-line fighters are the same, the second-line have different requirements, and the tankers are completely third.
    an attempt to make the same PP for all occasions is obviously a failure by definition.
    if specifically about the M3, then this is a very good self-defense PP for tankers, for example, perhaps the best in the Second World War and for others for whom the task was precisely self-defense, rather than conducting a full battle.
    (Essentially, we are talking about the version for the 9 mm cartridge, which life itself has identified as the optimal cartridge for PP).
    A very technological stamped-welded rigid structure, complete closure, which distinguished it favorably from other PCs of that time, ensured the absence of dust, dirt, rust and moisture, which was important in the Pacific Ocean.
    A clear flaw is the sophisticated cocking device, and then the other extreme is too primitive.
    and the decision how to cock the shutter so that there were no extra holes was quite simple, as, for example, in Finnish Suomi, on M3 it would be even simpler — you had to combine the traction for cocking the shutter with one of the spring-loaded guides.
    It can be added that the M3 is still used; recently, special forces in the Philippines have been adopted.
    1. -9
      27 January 2019 15: 10
      Quote: Avior
      In my opinion, an attempt to determine the best software is obviously doomed to failure.

      Well, why?
      First of all, it is necessary to weed out those that do not pass along the main (basic) attribute of army weapons, according to the effective destruction range. I recall, for PP it is 100 m.
      And here, everything is simple. Such a requirement during 2MV was met only by the following software:
      1. PP Thompson.
      2. M3 from this article.
      3. PP Danuvia M39 (later M43) (Hungary).
      There were no more army air conditioners during the years of WW2.
      M3 mobilization version of Thompson's PP.
      M43 is to some extent a mobilization version of M39 (not quite).
      Danuvius had a serious jamb; according to the cartridge, they were not unified with PP. Those. they had army pistols on their own (the same FEG 37M). And PP, by themselves.
      Thompson had an Colt army pistol on the same cartridge. That was just why Thompson was better than Danuvia. But ballistically, Thompson was also better than Danuvia.
      Therefore, Thompson is the best in those years. Although it was not cheap.
      But cheap, it usually is cheap.
      1. +8
        27 January 2019 15: 23
        because the fighters of the first line need a hard butt, a maximum resource, a low rate of fire and a maximum effective firing range - 100 as you write for a long time, or 200, as the rest of the world thinks. (However, the difference may be in the word "effective", depending on who understands what. Effective is if you kill the enemy from the tenth round or from the 20th? Or from the first? Until you give clear criteria in the accuracy of fire for the concept of effective range and data on accuracy, then it makes sense to argue in vain about the small range. Or, for example, effective is not to kill the enemy, but to press him to the ground in bursts, and shooting him from 200 meters from a rifle is not a very difficult problem for an experienced fighter.)
        They need to fight.

        But the tanker, whose tank was knocked out, need to shoot back, as soon as possible to retreat to his.
        and before this, it is necessary that the PP does not interfere in the tank and it must be removed from there in a hurry, along with a cartridge pouch with cartridges. and the butt should be folding, and the barrel is shorter, and the weight lighter, and such a large resource is not required - the tankman occasionally shoots, and the rate of fire can be higher - for self-defense it is even more convenient, and the effective range can be less, etc.
        That is, these are two different PP.
        1. -10
          27 January 2019 15: 47
          Quote: Avior
          The maximum effective firing range is 100 as you write for a long time, or 200, as the rest of the world considers.

          1. You confuse the maximum firing range with the effective range. These are different things. The effective destruction range is when, at a distance of 100 m, a bullet from a bullet enters the thigh for example and an enemy soldier dies from a central nervous system defeat. And this is important, namely the central nervous system.
          2. The firing range is generally not an interesting third-rate indicator. He was promoted to the USSR in order to confuse everyone that the weapons on the TT sports cartridge were good. But in fact, even Thompson's firing range is much greater than that of the same PPSh. Just because external ballistics is better.
          Quote: Avior
          Effective is if you kill the enemy with the tenth cartridge or from the 20th? or from the first?

          From the first. With a high-quality (not through, not touching) hit at a distance of 100 m. At the same time, hits in the LRA (head, heart, etc.) are not considered.
          Quote: Avior
          and before this, it is necessary that the PP does not interfere in the tank and it must be removed from there in a hurry, along with a cartridge pouch with cartridges. and the butt should be folding

          I see you heard that the performance is different. And with a solid butt, and with folding. Here is the answer to your question.
          Quote: Avior
          and the trunk is shorter

          No, the barrel should be standard.
          Unless the pants will completely fall off due to the duration of the war. Then the trunk can be made shorter. But immediately, all PP.
          Quote: Avior
          That is, these are two different PP.

          Two different PP, these are two different products. For those who are richer (for example, the United States in the years of WW2), such a solution may be acceptable. For those who are poorer, maximum unification is desirable. To reduce the range of manufactured parts.
          1. +9
            27 January 2019 16: 35
            1. You confuse the maximum firing range with the effective range. These are different things. The effective destruction range is when, at a distance of 100 m, a bullet from a bullet enters the thigh for example and an enemy soldier dies from a central nervous system defeat. And this is important, namely the central nervous system.

            you confuse it. determination of the effective range begins with the determination of the target. sniper, for a single target, for a group, etc., and criteria for the effectiveness of firing — incapacitation of the enemy, his death or something else, as well as the consumption of cartridges for this.
            so first decide on this, and then argue with the whole world, as you usually do.
            but argue with numbers.
            in the meantime .... despite the fact that the stopping effect of a bullet is 0.45 higher than 9 PAIRs, it is actually 9mm that has won recognition as a PP cartridge - this is an obvious fact.
            and if you are going to argue with the whole world, first take care of the factual side of the question - how many bullets and what caliber and at what distance are needed to achieve the desired effect when using PP. which I already wrote to you about above.
            Quote: Avior
            Effective is if you kill the enemy with the tenth cartridge or from the 20th? or from the first?

            From the first. With a high-quality (not through, not touching) hit at a distance of 100 m. At the same time, hits in the LRA (head, heart, etc.) are not considered.

            reference, please.
            or is it your idea? where did you get the idea that they correspond to reality? what's worse with the second for automatic weapons?
            I see you heard that the performance is different. And with a solid butt, and with folding. Here is the answer to your question.

            Have you seen Thompson?
            No, the barrel should be standard.
            Unless the pants will completely fall off due to the duration of the war. Then the trunk can be made shorter. But immediately, all PP.

            where did they get it? and tanker and machine gunner of the first line are completely different tasks.
            the tankman runs away from the enemy, aiming firing aimlessly, because he has no time to aim, and not allowing the enemy to take him prisoner or aim and kill. and praise him for it.
            if the first line submachine gun does this, they will shoot him for it.
            Do you understand the difference?
            Two different PP, these are two different products. For those who are richer (for example, the United States in the years of WW2), such a solution may be acceptable. For those who are poorer, maximum unification is desirable. To reduce the range of manufactured parts.

            no problem. unification is a good thing.
            if the criteria about which I wrote are met.
            for example, if PP is produced for the first and second lines, they differ in resource (and associated price) and folding stock.
            self-defense PP will already have much more differences.
            but in any case, this is not the same instance of software.
            1. -9
              27 January 2019 16: 49
              Quote: Avior
              then you are confused. determination of effective firing range

              I told him about the range of effective defeat. And he told me again about the firing range.
              Do you understand Russian?
              Quote: Avior
              but argue with numbers.

              What am I bringing to you?
              Quote: Avior
              despite the fact that the stopping effect of the bullet is 0.45 higher

              The stopping effect of a bullet is very important for police weapons. We are talking about the army, as I understand it.
              Quote: Avior
              in fact, it was precisely 9mm that won recognition as a PP cartridge - this is an obvious fact.

              Not at all. Who used this steam?
              Only the Germans (and then a little British).
              Why did the Germans use the cartridge of Para?
              Because they got this cartridge from 1MB. Only. Re-equipment, it is very expensive.
              And the post-war world was conquered not by the wartime cartridge, but by the post-war cartridge 9 × 19mm Luger + P.
              For some reason, you argue about what you don’t understand at all.
              Quote: Avior
              and if you are going to argue with the whole world

              You, is this the whole world? Do you take a lot on yourself?
              Quote: Avior
              reference, please.

              A reference to what? On a course of terminal ballistics a couple of years long?
              I really do not like to prove anything to non-professionals. This is an ungrateful occupation.
              Quote: Avior
              where did they get it? and tanker and machine gunner of the first line are completely different tasks.
              the tankman runs away from the enemy, aiming firing aimlessly, because he has no time to aim, and not allowing the enemy to take him prisoner or aim and kill. and praise him for it.
              if the first line submachine gun does this, they will shoot him for it.
              Do you understand the difference?

              As I understand it, in the economy your knowledge is very modest. Who are you by profession?
              Quote: Avior
              no problem. unification is a good thing.
              if the criteria about which I wrote are met.
              for example, if PP is produced for the first and second lines, they differ in resource (and associated price) and folding stock.
              self-defense PP will already have much more differences.
              but in any case, this is not the same instance of software.

              Do not forget yet:
              PP for cooks.
              PP for messengers.
              PP for car drivers (just in case).
              Are you from the United States for an hour? And then somehow think broadly. As for the USSR, it was a very poor country with a poor population. She was not up to the fat you describe.
              1. +7
                27 January 2019 17: 09
                I told him about the range of effective defeat. And he told me again about the firing range.
                Do you understand Russian?

                I am. You are not.
                effective range

                Give a link to the meaning of the term, and then a link that it was he who was the criterion for evaluating the PP.
                Your fantasies on this subject are not interesting to me. Let's get the facts.
                What am I bringing to you?

                Is it exactly normal with your Russian?
                I'm not interested in the numbers you composed, but really confirmed.
                You, is this the whole world? Do you take a lot on yourself?

                I assume that 9 mm caliber for PP has become the standard in the world for PP with a free shutter.
                however, I will not prove this to you.
                A reference to what?

                this one.
                From the first. With a high-quality (not through, not touching) hit at a distance of 100 m. At the same time, hits in the LRA (head, heart, etc.) are not considered.

                PS do you have a normal Russian?
                Tankman and submachine gunner of the first line are completely different tasks.
                the tankman runs away from the enemy, aiming firing aimlessly, because he has no time to aim, and not allowing the enemy to take him prisoner or aim and kill. and praise him for it.
                if the first line submachine gun does this, they will shoot him for it.
                Do you understand the difference?

                As I understand it, in the economy your knowledge is very modest. Who are you by profession?

                from this incoherent question of yours, it’s clear that you have big problems either with the Russian language, or with what we understand.
                try again.
                Do not forget yet:
                PP for cooks.
                PP for messengers.
                PP for car drivers (just in case).

                cooks and messengers are fighters of the second line.
                I didn’t hear about the carriages in the army.
                As for the USSR, it was a very poor country with a poor population. She was not up to the fat you describe.

                you do not understand what is written. I didn’t write that the USSR should have made different anti-aircraft guards under these criteria (add another fourth group — special forces — intelligence agents and others).
                I wrote about the criteria for evaluating the then existing software and the compliance with these criteria of real-life samples.
                1. -7
                  27 January 2019 17: 22
                  Quote: Avior
                  Let's get the facts.

                  Take a tutorial on terminal ballistics and get the facts.
                  It's all right?
                  Yes, I forgot. First you have to study the course of external ballistics. No other way. N / a bullet is given everywhere. But with a finite velocity of a bullet (at an object) it is much more complicated.
                  Quote: Avior
                  I assume that 9 mm caliber for PP has become the standard in the world for PP with a free shutter.

                  Nope. The "standard caliber" was used only by the Germans and a little by the British.
                  And in general, it was the most UNSOLVED caliber of software 2MV. 7,62 mm (due to the USSR) and .45 (due to the USA) were much more widespread. The Germans produced little PP.
                  Quote: Avior
                  I wrote about the criteria for evaluating the then existing software and the compliance with these criteria of real-life samples.

                  They wrote and wrote.
                  The American approach with the Thompson and M3 is generally understandable, albeit tricky. Much easier, probably, was to make a folding butt at Thompson.
                  But this is because of poverty. In the rich, it was more correct to do, as the USA did.
                  1. +8
                    27 January 2019 18: 04
                    Take a tutorial on terminal ballistics and get the facts.
                    It's all right?

                    no, it won’t.
                    Give specific information and don’t waste the air.
                    especially since I wrote about something completely different.
                    Threat you really have a Russian problem?
                    And in general, it was the most UNSOLVED caliber of software 2MV.

                    the history of the free-lock PP in 1945 did not end.
                    and during World War II everything was just what pistol cartridge was in service, and this was used in the PP. And after the Second World War, the results of mass application of PP were analyzed.

                    They wrote and wrote.
                    The American approach with the Thompson and M3 is generally understandable, albeit tricky. Much easier, probably, was to make a folding butt at Thompson.
                    But this is because of poverty. In the rich, it was more correct to do, as the USA did.

                    they didn’t do it.
                    therefore there is nothing to discuss.
                    but in any case, this is not the only evaluation criterion.
                    1. -6
                      27 January 2019 18: 13
                      Quote: Avior
                      give specific information

                      Specific information costs money. Yes Yes exactly.
                      Quote: Avior
                      And after the Second World War, the results of mass application of PP were analyzed.

                      Yes Yes. Especially in the USSR "analyzed" (from the word anal). That is why the army slipped the PM cartridge. Which was like a saddle to her.
                      Well, now things are off the ground. And they put into service the 9 × 19mm Luger + P cartridge (variation). And then it was completely obstructed.
                      1. +7
                        27 January 2019 18: 33
                        so, now I’ll explain everything to you. You are completely wrong.
                        but I will not confirm this with concrete data. for
                        Specific information costs money. Yes Yes exactly.

                        And they put into service the 9 × 19mm Luger + P cartridge (variation).

                        You see how simple it is.
                      2. -7
                        27 January 2019 18: 36
                        Quote: Avior
                        You see how simple it is.

                        And really, simple.
                        But I recommend that you study the short course of external and terminal ballista. You will discover a lot of new things. And get rid of the tales about the "genius Soviet small arms". Instantly.
                        And then we will go with you to artillery and BTT.
                      3. +8
                        27 January 2019 18: 54
                        And get rid of tales about the "genius Soviet small arms". Instantly.

                        and where did you find it in my text? I generally wrote about something else.
                  2. +4
                    27 January 2019 18: 09
                    Che you rest in mythical poverty? What are you talking about? Castling on your head doesn’t prevent you from composing fairy tales?
                    1. -6
                      27 January 2019 18: 21
                      Quote: Usher
                      Che you rest in mythical poverty?

                      Mythical? Why mythical?
                      Quote: Usher
                      Castrolya

                      She is panning.
          2. Alf
            +4
            27 January 2019 20: 04
            Carbine, escaped again because of the special guard? Are you here again? fool
            1. +4
              27 January 2019 23: 22
              Vasily, tochnik! hi

              When I heard about the Hungarian M39 and about the "sports cartridge TT", I immediately felt that my friends smelled. Exactly, Carbine and also wer-some-there-number. fool

              Avior, Seryozha, do not argue with this "graduate" from Kaschenko. This is a waste of time: "like peas against a wall ..." hi
        2. +1
          27 January 2019 21: 31
          When he served as an urgent in the SA, the gunner-operators were forced to carry pouches with stores on the Ak-74 on a belt during exercises. Although on an alarm, the pouch was simply fastened with a shoulder strap to the machine and just threw it into the tower. Pistols are just a jumpsuit, a holster in a zip. Recently (4 years ago), the same thing! Although no one wants to take an axu instead of a real one!
  9. +5
    27 January 2019 15: 08
    "Work began in October 1942, while testing another novelty by George Hyde, the M2 submachine gun, was completed in April of the same year."

    Cartridge .45 automatic transmission
    Length, mm, 825
    Barrel length, mm, 307
    Weight, 4,19 kg
    The number of grooves in the trunk - 4 right-hand grooves
    Shop - boxed for 20, 30 rounds
    Muzzle velocity, m / s - 293
    Rate of fire, rds / min - 500
    Manufacturer - Marlin Firearms (Marlin Firearms Corp.). New Haven, Connecticut.
    1. +6
      27 January 2019 15: 26
      they didn’t find a milling machine operator; a lot was required. wink
      besides, it is the weapon of a fighter of the first or second line, and not of a tanker like the M3, and in the first and second lines the Americans firmly occupied this niche with Carbine, which later received a folding butt.
      1. -4
        27 January 2019 15: 49
        Quote: Avior
        and in the first and second lines, the Americans firmly occupied this niche with Carbine, who later received a folding butt.

        Actually Garand. Carbine was a service weapon. The third most important weapon, after the Garands and Thompsons.
        1. +5
          27 January 2019 16: 38
          we are talking about the fact that among the Americans Carbine in the first and second lines occupied the same niche as the PP in other armies.
          1. -7
            27 January 2019 17: 01
            Quote: Avior
            we are talking about the fact that among the Americans Carbine in the first and second lines occupied the same niche as the PP in other armies.

            That's because the obvious nonsense write. And do not blush. Well, where does carbine come from in the first line? And in the second there were few of them.
            Do you even know about what kind of weapon this M1 is? I warn you right away, this weapon was very exotic. None of the parties had this (and now no one has). Just nafig nobody needed it. And it is not clear why the Yankees needed it.
            I think the answer can be called "corruption".
            1. +9
              27 January 2019 17: 25
              I do not have much desire to discuss your inventions on all topics.
              Carbine was used to equip the second line and the junior command link of the first, characteristic niches of the PP in the Second World War.
              Now this weapon is not needed, as well as PP.
              I think you have a vague idea of ​​the essence of the issue, otherwise you would know why it appeared specifically with the Americans and what it is connected with. hi
              1. -6
                27 January 2019 17: 35
                Quote: Avior
                Now this weapon is not needed, as well as PP.

                Who told you that PP is not needed? They are actually full.
                Only here the "brilliant Soviet cartridges" TT and PM were not suitable for the manufacture of PP. Therefore, the PP in the SA was replaced by the freak AKSU. Which was expensive and ineffective. But who in the USSR counted money?
                Quote: Avior
                I think you have a vague idea of ​​the essence of the issue, otherwise you would know why it appeared specifically with the Americans and what it is connected with.

                Actually, I understand the topic of shooting at an expert level. And the legend of the appearance of Carbine is known to me. But I don’t really believe in her. Due to the clumsy and exotic nature of this carbine for the army. But whatever you may say, in the field of shooting, Americans around the world could give odds, and even with a huge margin.
                And here is a puncture. Just think about logistics. Separate, no longer suitable ammunition, how is it?
                I will tell you even more, at one time they thought of releasing its analogue in the USSR. But they thought better of it in time. Sound smlsl won.
                There, the idea was to insert a TT bullet into a pistol case.
                From this "happiness" the USSR carried over.
                But nothing, he quite fully (by the very thing I want) got into an analogue of the German Kurz 7.92x33 mm.
                "A pig will always find dirt" is a Russian proverb. And one more - "devastation, it is in the heads."
                1. +7
                  27 January 2019 18: 04
                  I strongly doubt that you are expert-level. Given your vysery under the AKM type expelled from the SA. Only now AKM was used in the Chechen wars and is now being used. But you iksperd, you know better))))
                  1. -6
                    27 January 2019 18: 19
                    Quote: Usher
                    I strongly doubt that you are expert-level.

                    I am immensely saddened by your doubts. How can I endure this pain?
                    Quote: Usher
                    your vysery

                    Vysery happen to you. From malnutrition and wallowing on the couch.
                    Quote: Usher
                    AKM expelled from SA

                    What have you done? Politely asked danke shen, went out?
                    Quote: Usher
                    Only now AKM was used in the Chechen wars and is now being used.

                    What's this. Somewhere I heard another Berdan rifle yuzayut. So what?
                2. +5
                  27 January 2019 18: 43
                  Who told you that PP is not needed?

                  needed in certain cases and now, primarily for self-defense or for special units.
                  but it was their army use in the fighters of the first and second line that was greatly reduced, since after the war the automatic army became the main army weapon.
    2. 0
      28 January 2019 13: 12
      There was also this ...
      The Reising M50 submachine gun was designed and patented in 1940 by the American designer Eugene Reising. Harrington & Richardson (H&R) began mass production of this weapon in 1941. In 1942, the US Marine Corps contracted H&R to supply their new submachine guns. During World War II, the M50 submachine gun was in service with the United States Navy, the Coast Guard and the Marine Corps.

      Caliber: 11,43 × 23 (.45 ACP)
      Weapon length: 880 mm
      Barrel length: 275 mm
      Weight unloaded: 3 kg.
      Firing Rate: 500-550 rds / min
      Store capacity: 20 cartridges

      Source: https://www.armoury-online.ru/articles/smg/us/reising-m50/




      Cryptographers are Navajo Indians during battles for Bougainville Island. Two in the frame are armed with a Reising M50 submachine gun.

      By the way, the movie "Windtalkers" was made about them.
  10. +6
    27 January 2019 15: 15

    "Nicknamed the" grease gun "in the army for its unusual appearance"but during the Gulf War, the drivers of the 19th Engineering Battalion, attached to the 1st Armored Division, were equipped with the M3A1.
  11. +5
    27 January 2019 15: 55
    what did the Americans not think of?
    The most common feature of those years is the slot under the cocking handle of the shutter and the ejection window of the cartridges, through which dust, dirt and moisture got inside, which reduced reliability and resource.
    In M3, the Americans tried to overcome this.
    the window was closed with a lid with a safety lock, and the shutter was cocked by a "meat grinder" turning a lever that was not mechanically connected to the shutter.
    thus, there were no openings on the PCB where dirt could get.
    but the cocking mechanism of the shutter remained complex, uncomfortable and prone to rust.
    in fact, this problem was solved by the Finns earlier.

    on Suomi, the bolt was retracted into the rear position by rod 5, which stretched and pulled the bolt. simple and elegant. Americans could easily use one of the shutter guides for this; it was enough to lengthen it a bit, equip it with a handle and make a hole for it in the back wall of the box, see photo above.
    but- not fate, they did not.
    1. +2
      27 January 2019 20: 10
      "the window was closed with a lid with a safety lock, and the bolt was cocked by a" meat grinder "turning a lever that was not mechanically connected to the bolt."
      Here you are a little inaccurate. The lever with the shutter are connected just mechanically.

      Pay attention to detail No. 7.
      1. +2
        27 January 2019 23: 16
        This is a shutter pusher.
        I meant that there is no mechanical connection between the bolt and cocking handle.
        that is, when the cocked handle, the force is transmitted to the bolt through the pusher, after the token is set to the front position, and movement does not transfer to the handle from the bolt during shooting, the handle remains stationary. Suomi had a similar incident, by the way.
        usually the PP of that time had a tight connection between the shutter and cocking knobs, and the handle moved, which was traumatic.
    2. +1
      27 January 2019 22: 05
      but- not fate, they did not.


      They did this on the modern M-16, M4 and AR-15.
      1. +2
        27 January 2019 23: 18
        you are right, that’s right.
        and even thought out a rammer.
        but at that time they didn’t think of such a thing. although the solution already existed and was embodied in a real product.
  12. 0
    27 January 2019 17: 42
    A good PP-well done Yankees, really would like him to compare with the PP of other countries.
  13. +1
    27 January 2019 17: 58
    Ours tried it and tested it did not pass the test. The shutter works like an air piston and the rate of fire is low; the gap is small but the dirt almost doesn't get protected from it. but in the cold, the condensate accumulates and everything froze and the dirt and dust here and it wedges that yours does not work. But for the USA it was needed so not so expensive, and thousands of stamping could produce it.
    1. 0
      27 January 2019 23: 50
      Low rate of fire is the advantage of PP, and not a disadvantage, but the Yankees had enough dirt and dust in Europe and With Africa, not to mention the jungle.
  14. +5
    27 January 2019 18: 01
    Quote: vwwv20

    For some reason, Thompson was recognized in the world. But AKM was even expelled from the SA in the 70s. And in general, all weapons on a very brilliant cartridge of 7,62x39 mm. With the knee.

    Are you coming ..t? Immediately visible castrolegolovy. AKM is the most common machine in the world.
    1. Alf
      +4
      27 January 2019 20: 13
      Quote: Usher
      Are you coming ..t?

      No, it's just Carbine. He lives in his parallel reality. They constantly banned him, but every time he prolazit under a new nickname.
      Admins, maybe it's worth blocking registration by IP? We are all different here, who knows, who does not know, but they are all about the same level, but this is an obvious patient Kashchenko.
      1. +1
        27 January 2019 20: 41
        Quote: Alf
        Quote: Usher
        Are you coming ..t?

        No, it's just Carbine. He lives in his parallel reality. They constantly banned him, but every time he prolazit under a new nickname.
        Admins, maybe it's worth blocking registration by IP? We are all different here, who knows, who does not know, but they are all about the same level, but this is an obvious patient Kashchenko.

        If during registration you indicate the attitude to military service, categories in military-applied sports or scientific and technical education and so that it can be seen, no one will argue and feed the trolls.
        1. Alf
          +1
          27 January 2019 21: 33
          Quote: Doliva63
          If during registration you indicate the attitude to military service, categories in military-applied sports or scientific and technical education

          And how to check it? And it’s also written on the fence.
          1. 0
            28 January 2019 21: 49
            Quote: Alf
            Quote: Doliva63
            If during registration you indicate the attitude to military service, categories in military-applied sports or scientific and technical education

            And how to check it? And it’s also written on the fence.

            In the course of communication. When you are told that the 12,7 bullet slightly ruined your face, questions arise, agree.
            1. Alf
              0
              28 January 2019 22: 04
              Quote: Doliva63
              In the course of communication. When you are told that the 12,7 bullet slightly ruined your face, questions arise, agree.

              I agree, but what about the carbines?
              1. 0
                29 January 2019 20: 16
                Quote: Alf
                Quote: Doliva63
                In the course of communication. When you are told that the 12,7 bullet slightly ruined your face, questions arise, agree.

                I agree, but what about the carbines?

                No way. Why be with them? laughing
                1. Alf
                  0
                  29 January 2019 20: 17
                  Quote: Doliva63
                  Why be with them?

                  I don’t want to. But! You are them at the door, they are at the window.
        2. +6
          27 January 2019 22: 08
          There will be impostors from the 13th Buryat equestrian-diving division and doctors of spiritual, spiro-mantic and other metaphysical sciences.
          1. 0
            28 January 2019 21: 45
            Quote: Horse, people and soul
            There will be impostors from the 13th Buryat equestrian-diving division and doctors of spiritual, spiro-mantic and other metaphysical sciences.

            This is easily verified through classmates, colleagues and acquaintances.
    2. -2
      28 January 2019 00: 36
      Quote: Usher
      AKM is the most common machine in the world.

      Yes, in those countries where there are problems with money and there are no problems with fertility.
  15. +1
    27 January 2019 22: 38
    I wonder why there wasn’t M3 grease gun chambered for .30 Carbine. Following the example of Thompson's submachine gun ...
    "In addition to the serial carbines produced by Winchester - the self-loading M1 and the automatic M2, - by the third-party company Auto-Ordnance, which produced Thompson submachine guns, a so-called" Thompson Light Rifle "was developed for this cartridge as an experiment. to some extent it was an analogue of the German "Sturmgewever", with a simplified stamped-welded design, adapted for mass production. But the American military was not interested in it and remained a prototype. " Source: https://smallarms.ru/carticle?ammo=30cr&lk=am
    1. +1
      27 January 2019 23: 22
      .30 Carbine is too powerful a cartridge for a free-lock design.
      For implementation, the shutter would have to be made too heavy and the shutter travel large — that is, noticeably increased dimensions and weight.
      1300 J is almost an intermediate cartridge.
      1. -3
        28 January 2019 00: 34
        Quote: Avior
        1300 J is almost an intermediate cartridge.

        500 to 1000 ft-lb (678 to 1356 J) is a carbine cartridge. It is written in such capital letters and CARBINE (carabiner). There were no such cartridges in the USSR. And there was no such weapon (carbine, not short rifle). Therefore, shotguns (short rifle) were called carbines in the USSR.
        Oh, the collective farm. You don’t know anything. And that would not be a problem. Worse, you don’t want to know nicherta. Except once and for all learned Soviet tales.
        And as for the shutter, with such a cartridge power, a half-free shutter is usually used. There are a million species.
        1. +1
          28 January 2019 00: 48
          what, have you already banned?
          you have big problems with the Russian after all. you catch the meaning of the written badly.
        2. +1
          28 January 2019 10: 51
          Hello again -
          For example, in Germany until the middle of the 98th century, any cavalry rifle or rifle was called a “carbine”, regardless of length, so sometimes a carbine was longer than a rifle of the same model, and eventually any rifle with cavalry (side) belt mounts instead infantry lower sling. For example, the famous Karabiner XNUMXk rifle from World War II was just such a “carbine”. The traditional Arab carbines were very long, longer than many European rifles, and of the signs of this type of weapon were only those that were intended for cavalry. In Poland, any rifle is called a carbine at all, and a carbine is called a “carbine”.

          Well, they didn’t produce cartridges with the name CARBINE in Germany ... That's because there are no rumors.
          And they called their "shooting crafts" CARABINES anyway. Ay, what bad!
          Both MAUSER brothers and the German military should be put in a corner with them ...
      2. +1
        28 January 2019 01: 30
        Quote: Avior
        For implementation, the shutter would have to be made too heavy and the shutter travel large — that is, noticeably increased dimensions and weight.
        1300 J is almost an intermediate cartridge.

        Actually, Thompson is very interesting in this regard. It is heavy, it is gritty, its automatics are well balanced, the barrel practically does not bulge when fired. As a result, there was a desire to try a cartridge more powerful.
        Thompson tried with the cartridge .30 Carbine, and with .351 WSL (1,9 KJ), and even with .30-06 (4 KJ). The rifle would be too much, but from .351 WSL to 7,62x39 one step remained, to change the pistol bullet for the live one. With a ready-made machine, albeit heavy, but well-developed and reliable.

        Unfortunately for the Americans, the intellectual capabilities of the American ground command (30-35 - MacArthur, 35-39 - Craig, 39-45 - Marshall) did not allow us to assess the prospects that such weapons opened up to the infantry.
        1. 0
          28 January 2019 12: 04
          Good afternoon, colleague. hi

          Actually, at least Marshall had other problems at the time. And so, yes, an interesting idea for 7.62x39. Unfortunately I didn't shoot from Thompson, I can't imagine how he would have behaved in this case. In the Kremlin Armory, there was one sample among the weapons from gifts to Stalin, with a gold plate and the inscription on it: "To Marshal Stalin from the people of the United States of America in memory of the joint victory and as a pledge of the coming peace. President Harry Truman." The loading handle was on the right, there was no compensator, the performance was very high quality. They did not need it there, in the O. ward, they had a different profile, and we tried to exchange it for several medieval barrels, but, alas, did not agree on the "price". It's a pity, it would be interesting to try on shooting. smile
          1. 0
            28 January 2019 12: 54
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Actually, at least Marshall had other problems at that time.

            In Marshall, in general, hands rarely reached GSH, apparently. McNair, the chief of staff of the land investigators, usually remained behind the chief there. The latter is also not up to an intermediate cartridge - he turned the country club, which was the army of the 39th year, into something relatively combat-ready. Warrant Officer with three general stars.
            Quote: Sea Cat
            And so, yes, an interesting idea under 7.62x39

            It has been implemented, and even more than once. Cartridges 8 × 35 mm SR and .345 WMR, just based on the 351 WSL. Unfortunately, they did not pay attention.
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Unfortunately I didn’t shoot from Thompson, I can’t imagine how he would behave in this case

            Clearly better than the M2 Carbine on a 7,62 x 33 mm cartridge.
            1. +1
              28 January 2019 12: 59
              But I shot from M2A1 (from Vietnam trophies), I liked the machine very much.
              1. +1
                28 January 2019 13: 01
                Yeah. Made with soul)))
              2. 0
                28 January 2019 16: 57
                Quote: Sea Cat
                But I shot from M2A1 (from Vietnam trophies), I liked the machine very much.

                It seems the same place wink , Ku-Chi, M1, M1 carbine, M16 and M60 and veteran M1919 and worn SW were neatly folded wink
                Only now the cartridges were already with "green", it was scary to shoot ... but what to do - there were no supplies for a long time! laughing
                1. 0
                  28 January 2019 21: 37

                  Very green Vietnamese "boletus" ... laughing grade ".30 carbine"
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. +2
            28 January 2019 19: 40
            I seem to have already discussed this topic in sufficient detail.

            No, I don’t think the American rifle decisions are successful.

            No, I do not think that .45 anti-aircraft guns are a more suitable weapon for an infantryman than an AK-47.

            Yes, I’m sure that the battle of the infantry division of the draft or volunteer (unprofessional) army should be built on fire density, that is, not at all like the Americans of those years.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. +1
                29 January 2019 00: 01
                Quote: 23ew
                Maybe this will convince you of your wrong.

                I doubt that it will come of any sense.
                Quote: 23ew
                but the fighting rate of AKM and Thompson is the same

                We have already discussed this. The task is to assemble a single-cartridge compartment with a machine gun, and not just use up a couple of Liberty cartridges. Cartridge .45 does not give such an opportunity. Unlike RPD / AK / SKS. The United States with a 5,56 cartridge came to such a branch in the mid-80s.

                And not the fact that they were right. It is believed that a professional army, in contrast to a draft army, should shoot not from density, but from accuracy. So everything was again outplayed in favor of single shooting and 7.62 NATO.
          2. 0
            28 January 2019 22: 03
            Quote: 23ew
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            its automation is well balanced,

            Far better than AK automation.
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            but from .351 WSL to 7,62x39 one step remained, change the pistol bullet to the live one

            I don’t understand your message regarding the cartridge 7,62x39 mm. There is a feeling that you are not aware that in the 70s of the last century even the SA abandoned it and weapons on it. In addition to a small amount for specialists.
            And those tons of AKMs that were already released were shared with Soviet friends. Which of them enthusiastically soaked neighbors and each other. Calling it mochilo war language does not turn.
            Why “take one step to the 7,62x39 mm cartridge”?
            What is good in this cartridge?
            What is missing in the .45 ACP cartridge such as that in the 7,62x39 mm cartridge?
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Unfortunately for the Americans, the intellectual capabilities of the American ground command (30-35 - MacArthur, 35-39 - Craig, 39-45 - Marshall) did not allow us to assess the prospects that such weapons opened up to the infantry.

            I could make you a detailed comparison of the post-war Thompson on the cartridge .45 ACP + R and AKM. I have a very detailed article on this subject. Honestly, for a long and hard time comparing anything (in terms of performance and configuration), I did not find any special advantages of AKM over the post-war Thompson. But Thompson found a bunch of these same advantages over AKM.
            Unless the AKM’s bullet trajectory is better. Those. the whole thing should be started to move a little later than that of Thompson. But this is a so-so advantage. Weak.
            It may be a little more convenient to hammer the AKM butt in a vat.
            But that’s all. Further for AKM there are continuous troubles.
            You see, Americans are very strong at shooting. Perhaps the most powerful. Especially were in those years. And if they were not interested in StG44, then this is not just so. This is a very eloquent fact.

            In general, even a step was made to the .276 Pedersen (7 × 51mm), but then everything returned to normal again, "I needed a new rifle, not a new caliber."
            Why is the 7,62 * 39 ogive bullet better than the .45 bullet? More direct range, more bullet energy and more effective when shooting at closed targets (for example, in winter clothing), where the "slow and large bullet" generally does not work well.
            By the way, there is a feeling that the news about the transition from Colt 1911 (and .45 remains a caliber for "close relationships" when "d .... thrown on a fan") to Beretta M9 and further to ZIG (with a turn to HC MP7) not everyone knows yet.
            hi
            1. 0
              28 January 2019 23: 52
              Quote: Wildcat
              In general, a step was even taken to .276 Pedersen (7 × 51mm)

              Ugums, this digging under the rifle cartridge was also managed to be blown up. Although Pedersen, after all, is not about automatic weapons.
              Quote: Wildcat
              news of the transition from Colt 1911 to the Beretta M9

              With this author, bargaining is useless.
        3. 0
          28 January 2019 21: 10
          It is not that simple. What is heavy is understandable, a milled box.
          PP with a free shutter — in fact, Thompson was such, although formally semi-free, the mass of the shutter is tied to the cartridge power and barrel length.
          therefore, if a powerful cartridge was used, it was necessary either to increase the mass of the shutter strongly, and Thompson was already so heavy, much more, or to shorten the barrel without using the cartridge at full power.
          It would have turned out to be such an AKSU. It’s logical that they didn’t do this
          1. 0
            28 January 2019 23: 33
            Quote: Avior
            It’s logical that they didn’t do this

            Perhaps you are right. However, you look from today, when almost all weapons of this class work on the gas outlet. In those years there were more experiments.
            In addition, the point is not that Thompson didn’t fit. And the fact that the topic, in principle, did not enter.
            1. 0
              29 January 2019 00: 01
              free-gate automation is simple and cheap in design and manufacturing technology, little critical to processing accuracy.
              This is its plus, which "shot" just at a time when the technological level of most manufacturing enterprises was low.
              But the peculiarity of this automation is that the power, the mass of the shutter and the length of the barrel are quite rigidly connected.
              If we want to get the most out of the cartridge, then the barrel length must be such that the bullet comes out of it at the moment of approximately maximum speed.
              for a 9 mm cartridge a pair is about 20 cm, for a TT cartridge 26-27 cm, as far as I remember.
              It is at this moment that the bolt should move back — if earlier, there will be a rupture of the sleeve. All the shutter for TT cartridge is something about 600 gr. If the cartridge is more powerful - the weight will be more, the massive shutter will start to cause vibrations that greatly reduce accuracy when moving, that is, you will have to raise the weight of the weapon to compensate.
              therefore, if we want to get an acceptable weight of the weapon, we can’t greatly lift up the power of the cartridge.
              or limit the actually used power of the cartridge by reducing the barrel length, which also makes no sense.
              The gas outlet is not so rigidly tied to each other in terms of parameters, there you can change the amount of gases for the operation of automation in different ways, so you can use a more powerful cartridge. But the payment for this is the complication of design and technological requirements. It was not easy for the factories of that time, especially considering that the PP was viewed as an auxiliary weapon "cheaper" hi
              1. +1
                29 January 2019 00: 12
                Quote: Avior
                It was not easy for the factories of that time, especially considering that the PP was viewed as an auxiliary weapon "cheaper"

                We are talking about American factories, let me remind you. Garand, M1 Carabiner - gas outlet, in the amount of 12 million copies.
                1. 0
                  29 January 2019 00: 22
                  yes, the Americans could, and others could almost immediately after the war.
                  but they looked at PP as a cheap weapon.
                  Carbine with automatic fire did not work out well, as you know.
                  Apparently, for the transition to further development, experience was needed, and its Second World War gave.
                  In the intermediate cartridge, it seems, too, nothing complicated, but they did not reach it right away.
                  perhaps in such cases there is a place for a certain combination of circumstances.
                  For example, almost all second-world PPs were built according to the Schmeiser scheme — a free shutter and shooting from the rear sear.
                  one can guess what was, if not his invention, but the fact is the fact - they were all "Schmeisser systems"
                  1. +2
                    29 January 2019 00: 44
                    Quote: Avior
                    and others were able almost immediately after the war.

                    And before the war they could. SVT - gas vent.
                    Quote: Avior
                    Carbine with automatic fire did not work well

                    The carbine with automatic fire turned out to be very good, but they began to use it in combined arms combat, and even gave it to soldiers accustomed to the rifle. As a result, when in Korea the enemy went to the distance of effective fire of a carbine, its owner already managed to release the entire ammunition into white light as a pretty penny.
                    Quote: Avior
                    In the intermediate cartridge, it seems, too, nothing complicated, but they did not reach it right away.

                    The idea of ​​an individual automatic gun by the 40th year had already been many years, and ideas of what the cartridge should be for it had been discussed for a long time. It was not "war that gave experience" here, but "war forced" the staff to change their habits.

                    It seems to me that we need to clearly distinguish between them. It's not that someone invented or was able to realize intermediate cartridge and weapons on it. The fact is that the headquarters of most countries recognizedthat the infantryman’s weapon should be an assault rifle, not a rifle.

                    Most countries recognized, but did not recognize one. This one was the USA. Their staff, who cut off the Anglo-Belgian intermediate cartridge in favor of the rifle 7,62x51 (suddenly, my beloved Aiki and then put his claws), the world and owed the triumph of Kalashnikov.
                    1. 0
                      29 January 2019 01: 35
                      FN FAL - "the right hand of the free world" - has received a distribution comparable to Kalashnikov. just in the USSR and Russia, it is practically unknown.
                      The Americans had a strong desire to keep the battle distance as far as possible in order to reduce losses. Hence Garand, Carbine instead of PP for others and M14.
                      The USSR and the Papuans did not suffer from this.
                      Carbine with automatic fire turned out very good

                      I heard that M2 had a low accuracy, so he did not receive the distribution of M1. produced since 1944. I don’t think everyone was stupid.
                      the headquarters of most countries recognized that the infantry’s weapon should be an assault rifle, not a rifle

                      result of war experience
                      1. +1
                        29 January 2019 01: 50
                        Quote: Avior
                        result of war experience

                        Ugums. But some reached sharply earlier than others.
                        Quote: Avior
                        The Americans had a strong desire to keep the battle distance as far as possible in order to reduce losses

                        No. It is as if obvious that if the squad is inferior in terms of fire density at a typical battle distance, then its losses, other things being equal, are unlikely to be less. And the American branch with BAR - Garand - Karabin was inferior to the branch with RPD - AK - SKS radically.
                        As for "keeping away", the distance of hitting a growth target from an open sight was no secret to anyone.
                        Quote: Avior
                        FN FAL - "the right hand of the free world" - has become widespread, quite comparable to the AK-47 and even AKM

                        FN FAL (like M14) in terms of fire density are not far from Garanda. Only in our time - with more trained shooters, NIB and total optics / collimators - solutions at 7,62 again became relevant.
                      2. 0
                        29 January 2019 09: 52
                        Americans - and followed by others, FN FAL was armed, as they say, in 90 countries - proceeded from the fact that the use of long-range weapons with a powerful enemy cartridge can be stopped at a great distance without transferring to close combat. By the way, FN FAL has been used as a Marsman rifle for quite some time.
                        If it was only about the density of fire, then the PCA would be left.
                        or as in the stories from Africa, I ran around the corner (or even just popping the AK over the shelter and shoot without looking), released the horn without aiming and again into the shelter.
                        In principle, AK 47 already at medium distances when firing bursts had problems with accuracy.
                        And AK, in my opinion, should not be compared with Garand, but with M14 and FAL FAL.
                        Carbine, in general, was a weapon of self-defense, and in terms of combat distance it surpassed the PP of other armies - all in ideas about long-distance combat.
                      3. +1
                        29 January 2019 10: 34
                        Quote: Avior
                        Americans - followed by others

                        Did the Americans have FN?
                        Quote: Avior
                        By the way, FN FAL has been used as a Marsman rifle for quite some time.

                        It's not a question. Although maxman without optics ...
                        Quote: Avior
                        proceeded from the fact that the use of long-range weapons with a powerful enemy cartridge can be stopped at a great distance without translating into close combat

                        In fact, for such purposes a machine gun is used, in theory.
                        Quote: Avior
                        If it was only about the density of fire, then the PCA would be left

                        On the density of fire at distances, allowing you to effectively support the machine gunner. Just on this .30 burned up - it didn’t fit very well with the BAR, the neighbor had already shot everything and was sitting without cartridges, and you bear no nerves until the Chinese crawls 200 meters.
                        Quote: Avior
                        In principle, AK 47 already at medium distances when firing bursts had problems with accuracy.

                        This is yes.
                        Quote: Avior
                        And AK, in my opinion, should not be compared with Garand, but with M14 and FAL FAL.

                        The rifle of Korea - Garand. M14 - Vietnam rifle. In Vietnam, the Americans quickly realized that they weren’t the smartest here, they should be given their due. True, without jambs again it could not do.
                2. 0
                  29 January 2019 00: 43
                  pay attention to one more nuance.
                  almost all of the PPs during the war shot from the rear whisper from the open shutter.
                  that is, the bolt before firing in the rear position, when fired, the massive bolt goes forward, removes the cartridge from the magazine, sends it to the chamber, hits it with a massive bolt, and only then the shot, with all this, the sight noticeably goes astray.
                  with automatic fire, this did not matter much, and with a single shot from a closed shutter, the accuracy would be noticeably increased — if the shutter was already in the chamber before the shot and only the firing was needed.
                  and to do it technically was not so difficult, it is implemented, for example, in the semi-artisan Agram 2000

                  the differences with the M3 are literally a couple of cheap items, but nevertheless during the war this was not done in the vast majority of software.
                  Whether a matter of chance, or experience ....
                  1. 0
                    29 January 2019 04: 17
                    The possibility of "firing from a closed bolt would noticeably increase" the requirements for the accuracy of manufacturing individual parts, which could significantly limit the possibilities of manufacturing PCBs. For that, the same STEN was oak, but even with it, the Brit had problems due to the incompatibility of parts made at different factories.
                    1. 0
                      29 January 2019 09: 42
                      No big difference, two small details on the upper spring would be added and that’s it.
                      Compatibility problems were also in PPSh-tambourines individually customized, for example.
                      Just PP was considered something secondary and the quality was appropriate.
                      1. 0
                        29 January 2019 18: 17
                        During the development of industrial software of the 2nd World War times, very large tolerances were often specially laid out from the calculation of production at non-core plants by unskilled workers. And often even these horse tolerances were still violated, which led to weapon failures and breakdowns.
                        A separate part of the hammer and the corresponding bolt must be made with relatively small tolerances. Well, no more than a tenth of a millimeter. For non-core wartime production, this would be tough (we passed, we know, at one time I put a self-made drummer on an old shotgun, I had to adjust it very carefully and not at all quickly).
                        It just seems only now, with modern machines with qualified personnel.
                      2. 0
                        29 January 2019 22: 31
                        no problem, precisely for this operation was to put at the plant 3 people with higher qualifications. especially since it would not be a single subtle operation.
                        for example, installing a sleeve extractor.
  16. 0
    29 January 2019 17: 51
    I read this article, God, what garbage! ... And how can this be read?!?

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