"Standard" battleships of the USA, Germany and England. American "Pennsylvania"

102
And now, finally, we proceed to the description of the American "standard" battleships. As mentioned earlier, for comparison with the British "Rivendzhi" and German "Bayernami" were selected American battleships of the type "Pennsylvania" - mainly due to the fact that the ships of all three of these types were laid almost simultaneously, in 1913, that is, they were designed and created at the same time. In addition, despite the fact that the first “standard” American battleship is considered “Nevada”, it, so to speak, was still “version-light”. Despite the fact that "Nevada" had all the signs of a "standard" US battleship, that is, boilers for oil heating, an all-or-nothing booking scheme and the use of three-gun towers (which the Americans had to refuse only on the Maryland, because they used they are already on the 356-mm, and 406-mm guns), it was significantly smaller than the "Pennsylvania" (about 4 000 t) and less armed. The next series of battleships, although they were larger than the "Pennsylvania", but very slightly and, up to the "Maryland", carried weapons of similar composition.

History designing battleships like "Pennsylvania" is very simple. Despite the fact that the first American battleships that received 356-mm artillery were two ships of the "New York" type, the other constructive solutions did not shine with novelty at all. Then the Americans began to design truly revolutionary battleships of the “Nevada” type, but, unfortunately, the flight of design ideas turned out to be pretty slowed down by financial constraints, which boiled down to the following: the newest ships should be “shoved” into the displacement of the previous type “New York”.



The fact was that the creation of the American linear, and not only linear fleet strongly depended on the political situation in Congress and on the current attitude of the presidential administration towards shipbuilding programs. The fleet wanted to lay 2 battleships annually, but at the same time there were several years when funds were allocated only for one ship of this class. But even in cases when Congress sought funds for the laying of two ships, he could insist on limiting their cost, and in this regard, American sailors and shipbuilders were probably in worse conditions than, for example, the Germans with their “maritime law” .

So in the case of the Nevada, admirals and designers had to make known sacrifices - for example, the number of 356-mm guns had to be reduced from 12 to 10 guns. Some even suggested to leave all 8 of such guns, but the idea to build the newest battleships weaker than the ships of the previous series did not find a positive response at all, even though the displacement saved was proposed to be used to enhance protection. In addition, the speed had to be reduced from the initial 21 knots. to 20,5 knots.

So, when it came time to design the next series of super dreadnoughts, which eventually became the “Pennsylvania” type battleships, the American lawmakers “became generous”, making it possible to increase the cost of building new ships from 6 to 7,5 million dollars. Why did the word “get generous” be quoted? Is it a question of 25-percent increase in funding? The fact is that, firstly, in fact, the cost of building Nevada and Oklahoma cost 13 645 360 dollars, or more than 6,8 million dollars per ship. However, the actual cost of the construction of "Pennsylvania" also exceeded the planned figure, amounting to approximately 8 million dollars. And secondly, the fact is that this is the cost of construction without taking into account armor and armament: for two battleships of the "Nevada" type these items were 9 304 286 dollars. In other words, the total cost of Nevada was 11 401 073, 04 dollars, and “Oklahoma - even more, 11 548 573,28 dollars and permission to design and build“ Pennsylvania ”on 1,5 million. dollars more expensive was just about 13-pr percentage increase in the total cost of the ship.


The battleship "Pennsylvania" (in the lower right corner) next to its predecessors: "Oklahoma" and "Nevada"


I must say that with this money the Americans managed to achieve quite a lot - in general, the Pennsylvania type battleships looked more powerful and harmonious than the ships of the previous type. This is not surprising: in fact, the main characteristics of "Pennsylvania" - 12 * 356-mm guns, speed 21 knots. and protection at the “Nevada” level are all that the admirals wanted to see in the project of battleships of the “Nevada” type, but they had to be partially abandoned in order to “shove” the battleships into the required displacement and cost estimate.

Design

We will not describe in detail the ups and downs of this stage in the creation of Pennsylvania type battleships, since they will be more appropriate in the relevant sections on artillery, armor protection and the power plant of the ship. Let us dwell only on a couple of interesting facts of a general nature.

The US Navy had a real risk of getting two more Nevads instead of Pennsylvania. The fact is that the General Council formulated its requirements for the 1913 “9 battleship” on June 1911, just when the Nevada project was almost ready. It is not surprising that the Design and Repair Bureau, which was responsible for the design work, had a considerable temptation to “sell” the newly made project again. They even summed up a tactical justification: after all, the General Council itself was pursuing a line on the construction of battleships by squadrons on the 4 ship, so what's the wise? We take a ready-made project, finish it a little bit here, darn there, and ...

But the General Council judged perfectly sensibly - there is no point, having obtained expanded financial opportunities, to build two more Nevada, with all their weak points resulting from financial compromise. At the same time, the battleships of the requirements declared by the General Council (12 * 356-mm, 22 * 127-mm, 21 knot) are quite capable of making a tactical four with Nevada, although they will be somewhat stronger and more perfect than the latter.

When the design of "Pennsylvania" was already in full swing, the General Council went to Congress with a proposal to build in the financial 1913, already four such battleships. History is silent about whether it was really serious intention, or just responsible persons, inspired by the proverb “You want a lot, you get a little”, seriously counted only on the 2 battleship, leaving the field for trade with congressmen. The fact is that such vast appetites were deemed excessive, but most of all the 1913 program was knocked down by the notorious Senator Tillman, who wondered: why spend a lot of money on a series of gradually improving ships? Let's better get down to the design and construction of the most powerful terminal battleships, which will be impossible to create more and more at the current technological level. According to Tillman, the logic of the development of naval armaments will still lead other countries to build such battleships, which, of course, will immediately obsolete all previous ones, and if so, why wait? In general, the points of view turned out to be too contradictory, the congressmen didn’t have a common understanding of the future linear forces, the ball reigned in doubt, and as a result, in 1913, the USA laid only one ship, the “Pennsylvania”, and its “sistership” (strictly speaking, then it was necessary to write "her") "Arizona" was laid only in the following, 1914.

It is interesting, although it does not relate to the topic of the article, that in the United States with the filing of Tillman did indeed conduct the relevant research. Parameters of the “ultimate” battleship amazed: 80 000 t, 297 m length, speed around 25 knots, armor in 482 mm, main caliber of 15 (!) 457-mm guns in five three-gun turrets or 24 * 406-mm in four six-gun ! However, the first estimations showed that the cost of one such ship would be no less than 50 million dollars, that is, about the same as the division of the 4 battleships of the “Pennsylvania” type, so that the studies on this topic were discontinued (although they resumed later ).

Artillery


Sistership of Pennsylvania - battleship Arizona


The main caliber of the “Pennsylvania” type battleships, without a doubt, was the strangest spectacle among all the heavy marine installations of the world.

“Pennsylvania” and “Arizona” armed themselves with 356-mm / 45 guns (true caliber - 355,6-mm) modifications of the Mk ... but which ones, perhaps, the Americans themselves may not remember, at least it was not possible to find exact data in the Russian-language literature . The fact is that these instruments were placed on US battleships starting from New York and modified a great number of times: there were 12 basic modifications of this gun, but they had other “inside” - they were designated from Mk 1 / 0 to Mk 12 / 10. At the same time, the differences between them were usually quite insignificant, with perhaps two exceptions. One of them concerned the initial series: the fact is that the very first 356-mm / 45 cannons were not lined, but then, of course, they got a liner. The second was made after the First World War and was to increase the charging chamber, so that the gun was able to shoot a heavier projectile with a higher initial speed. At the same time, in the majority of modifications (but still not in all) the ballistics of the guns remained identical, often the whole “modification” was that the gun received a generally identical liner with a slightly modified manufacturing technology, and as the liners were replaced the gun “changed” its modification. Also, the appearance of new modifications could be caused by upgrading, or simply replacing the gun that was shot completely, but I must say that, especially in the 20-30 years of the last century, the Americans were chasing their commanders rather intensively. And so it turned out that for the American battleships it was the norm to have the guns of several modifications on one ship at the same time. So, on the "Oklahoma" at the time of her death there were two guns Mk 8 / 0; five - Mk 9 / 0; one is the Mk 9 / 2 and two more Mk 10 / 0.

At the same time, as we said above, the ballistic qualities of modifications with rare exceptions remained unchanged. Nevertheless, the Americans did not shun to put guns with different ballistics on one ship - it was believed that small deviations were fully capable of compensating for the fire control system. The idea, frankly, is highly dubious, and, presumably, this was not widely practiced.

In general, on the one hand, the update of the main caliber of US battleships looks more or less logical, but due to its complexity, it is unclear what guns of modification the “Pennsylvania” and “Arizona” received when they entered service. It also creates a certain uncertainty in their performance characteristics, because, as a rule, the relevant data in the sources are given for modifications of the Mk 8 or Mk 12 - apparently, earlier models were on the battleships of the “Pennsylvania” type.

Usually, for 356-mm / 45 guns of American battleships the following data is given: before 1923, when the next modification increased the camera, allowing you to shoot more heavy charge, they were designed to fire 635 kg with a projectile with an initial speed of 792 m / s. At an elevation angle in 15 hail. shot range was 21,7 km or 117 cables. In subsequent modifications (1923 and later), the same guns were able to shoot the newest, heavier projectile weighing 680 kg with the same initial speed, or, using the old 635 kg projectile, increase its initial velocity to 823 m / s.

Why do we need to describe in detail the situation with post-war modifications, because we obviously will not take them into account when comparing battleships? This is necessary in order to the dear reader, in case he suddenly comes across some calculations of the armor penetration of these 356-mm / 45 American guns, remembers that they can be made for a later, enhanced modification. So, for example, we can see the calculations given in the book by AV Mandel.



Thus, we see that the American gun “mastered” 60 mm armor on the (rounded) 366 cable and the 70 mm cable on the 336 cable. This is clearly more modest than the British 381-mm gun, on the tests of the 350 mm frontal penetrated armor plate of the German Baden tower at a distance of 77,5 cab, but in a footnote to the table it is indicated that the given data were considered for 680 kg of projectile. Which obviously means that the 635 kg indicators of the projectile are even more modest. However, let's not get ahead of ourselves - we will do a comparison of the artillery of the battleships of Germany, England and the USA later.

Ammunition of the Pennsylvania-type battleships made up 100 projectiles per barrel, it included ... exactly 100 armor-piercing projectiles. The American admirals for a long time were convinced that their battleships were designed for one single task: crushing their own kind at the extreme distances of a battle. In their opinion, an armor-piercing projectile was best suited for this purpose, and if so, then why litter the cellars of the battleships with ammunition of other types? In general, high-explosive shells on “standard” 356-mm US battleships appeared only by 1942, and there is no point in looking at them in this series of articles.

As for the 635 kg of armor-piercing projectile, it was completed with 13,4 kg of explosive, namely dannit, later name: Explosive D. This explosive is based on ammonium picrate (not to be confused with picric acid, which became the basis for the famous Japanese shimoza, or liddite, melinita, etc.). In general, this American explosive had a slightly lower potential compared to trinitrotoluene (the TNT equivalent of TNT), but was much calmer and less prone to spontaneous explosion than shimosis. The author of this article, alas, could not figure out whether there was any fundamental difference between the early versions of dannita and the later “D explosion”, which were equipped with 0,95 kg shells: probably, if they were, then it is extremely small.

Interesting fact: the later 680 kg projectile contained only 10,2 kg of explosives, that is, even less than it was in 635 kg. In general, it should be noted that the Americans in their shells apparently "invested" primarily in armor penetration, having increased the walls to the utmost possibility, and, accordingly, the strength of the munition, while sacrificing a mass of explosive. Even in the “mighty” 635 kg projectile, the amount of explosives corresponded, rather to its 305-mm “brethren”: it is enough to recall that the 405,5 kg armored-piercing projectile of the German 305-mm / 50 gun carried 11,5 kg of explosives, and the Russian 470,9 kg of similar-purpose ammunition - 12,95 kg However, in fairness, we note that the British 343-mm “greenboy”, being a full-fledged armor-piercing projectile and having a mass similar to the American fourteen-inch projectile (639,6 kg), was slightly higher than the latter in terms of explosive content — it contained 15 kg of shellite.

American 356-mm / 45 guns withstood 250 shots 635 kg projectile with an initial speed 792 m / s. Not amazing, but not a bad indicator.

In terms of their design, the 356-mm / 45 artillery systems represented, so to speak, a kind of intermediate option between the German and British approaches. The barrel was a bonded construction, like the Germans, but the lock was used by a piston, like the British: the latter was to a certain extent dictated by the fact that the piston, opening downward shutter was probably the most optimal solution in a close three-gun turret. Of course, the use of advanced technology gave the Americans a good gain in the mass of the gun. Japanese 356-mm guns of the battleship "Fuso", which had a wire barrel design and approximately equal muzzle energy, weighed 86 tons, against 64,6 tons of the American artillery system.

In general, the following can be said about the American 356-mm / 45 gun. For its time, and the first model of this gun was created in 1910, it was a very sophisticated and competitive artillery system, definitely one of the best naval guns in the world. It was in no way inferior to the British 343-356-mm cannons made in England for Japan, and exceeded in some ways. But with all this, the potential capabilities of this weapon were largely limited to the only type of ammunition - an armor-piercing projectile, which, moreover, had a relatively small amount of explosives. And, of course, with all its merits, the 356-mm / 45 gun couldn’t compete with the newest 380-381-mm artillery systems.

On the other hand, the Americans on the Pennsylvania-type battleships managed to place a dozen 356-mm / 45, while the ships of the Rivend and Bayern types carried only 8 main-caliber guns. In order to arm the battleship with such a number of trunks, while not extending its stronghold excessively, the American designers used three-gun towers, the construction of which ... well, first things first.

For the first time such towers were used on battleships of the "Nevada" type: forced to "tamp down" the ship into the displacement of the previous "New York", the Americans were very eager to reduce the size and weight of the three-gun towers, if possible, bringing them closer to the two-guns. Well, the Americans achieved their goal: the geometric dimensions of the towers differed little, for example, the inner diameter of the barbat of the Nevada two-gun turret was 8,53 m, and the three-arm one - 9,14 m, and the weight of the rotating part - 628 and 760, respectively. And this, as it turned out , there was still no limit: the Pennsylvania-type battleships received towers, albeit of a similar construction, but even smaller in size, their mass was 736 t, and the inner diameter of the barbet was reduced to 8,84 m. But at what price was it achieved?

The American two-gun turrets had a classical scheme in which each gun was in a separate cradle and equipped with its own set of mechanisms that ensured the delivery of projectiles and charges. In this regard, the US two-tower towers were quite similar to the installations of England and Germany. But for the miniaturization of three-gun towers, American designers had to place all three guns in one cradle and confine themselves to two projectile and charging lifts for three guns!

Interestingly, most sources indicate that there were still three charging lifts, so only shells suffered, but judging by the detailed (but alas, not always clear) description of the tower design given by V.N. Chausov in his monograph "Battleships" Oklahoma "and" Nevada "", this is still not the case. That is, each American tower actually had two projectile and three charging lifts, but the fact is that one of the last delivered charges from the cellars only to the reloading compartment, and from there two other charging lifts delivered the charges to the guns. However, apparently, a single lift to the transshipment compartment did not create a bottleneck - it was a chain, and probably coped well with its task. But here, in the tower itself, only extreme guns (the first and the third) were provided with shell and charging lifts, the average of its own lifts did not have - neither charging nor projectile.


The breech 356-mm / 45 guns of the battleship "Oklahoma" in the two-gun turret.


The Americans claim that “with the proper preparation of calculations,” the three-gun turret can, in principle, develop the same rate of fire as the two-gun, but it is very difficult to believe. The technological flaw described above does not allow to expect a similar result with equal preparation of calculations for two- and three-gun towers. In other words, if the calculation of the two-gun turret is trained regularly, and the three-gun one is moreover driven into the tail and into the mane day and night, then maybe they will equal the rate of fire on the barrel. But this will be achieved solely through superior training, and if the same is given to the calculation of the two-gun tower?

Another extremely serious drawback of the American three-gun towers was the small mechanization of their processes. The guns of the main caliber of the battleships of England, Germany and many other countries had fully mechanized loading, that is, the projectile, and the charges, after feeding and to the guns, were fed into them by means of mechanical rammers. But not the Americans! Their rammer was used only when loading the projectile, but the charges were sent manually. How did this affect the rate of fire? Recall that the charge to 356-mm / 45 gun in those years was 165,6 kg, that is, for only one salvo, the calculation should have been moved by hand almost half a ton of gunpowder, and given the fact that the Americans claimed the rate of fire in 1,25-1,175 shots per minute. .. Of course, the loaders did not have to carry charges on their own backs, they had to be rolled from the elevator to a special table, and then, at the “zero” elevation angle of the gun, “push” the charges into the chamber with a special wooden stick-cleaner. In general, probably, 10 minutes at such a pace a physically prepared person could withstand, and then what?

We now return to the "excellent" decision to place all three guns in one cradle. In fact, the disadvantages of this design are greatly exaggerated and could be partially compensated by the organization of the shooting, taking into account this feature. What was the easier way to do it, using the cutting edge “ledge” or “double ledge” advanced at that time, but ... the problem is that the Americans didn’t do anything of the kind. And because of the shortcomings inherent in the “single-faced” scheme, they manifested themselves on their battleships in all their glory.

Strictly speaking, in addition to compactness, there is at least one more advantage - the axes of the guns are on the same line, while the guns in different cradles had a mismatch of trunk lines, which was not so easy to deal with. In other words, because of small backlashes, etc. when installing the guns, say, at the angle of elevation in 5 degrees, it could happen that the right gun of the two-gun turret received the right angle, and the left one - a little smaller, and this, of course, affected the accuracy of fire. “One-man” installations did not have such a problem, but alas, that was the end of their list of advantages.

Ordinary towers (i.e., having guns in different cradles) had the opportunity to shoot with incomplete volleys, that is, while one gun was aimed at the target and fired, the others were charged. Thus, among other things, the maximum fire performance is achieved, since no gun of the turret is idle - at each moment of time it is either pointed, or shot, or lowered to the loading angle, or charged. Thus, delays can occur only “through the fault” of the fireman if the latter delays the transfer of data for firing to the guns. And if necessary, the battleship with 8 guns of the main caliber with a 1 shot rate in 40 seconds per barrel is capable of firing four-guns every 20 seconds. A battleship with 12 with such weapons is capable of producing three four-gun volleys every 40 seconds, that is, the interval between the volleys is only slightly more than 13 seconds.

But in a “single-lumen” system, similar performance is achieved only with salvo firing, when the towers fire a salvo from all the guns at once: in this case, the battleship with a dozen GK guns will give only one salvo in 40 seconds, but if it's a full salvo, then 12 projectiles will be sent, that is, the same amount as will be fired in three four-guns. But if you shoot incomplete volleys, then the fire performance significantly subsides.

But why even shoot incomplete salvos? The fact is that when firing “full board” only one type of shooting is available - the “fork”, when you need to ensure that one volley goes to flight, the second - to undershoot (or vice versa) and then “half” the distance until covering will be achieved. For example, they shot 75 cables - a flight, 65 cables - a shortage, we shoot 70 cables, and we expect what happens. Suppose a flight, then set the sight on the 67,5 cable, and here, most likely, there will be a covering. This is a good, but slow way of shooting, so inquisitive naval thought also invented the shooting with a “ledge” and a “double ledge” when the volleys are given at different distances by the “ladder”, and not waiting for the previous salvo to fall. For example, we shoot three volleys with a step of 5 cables (65, 70 and 75 cables) with a small time interval between each volley, and then we estimate the position of the target relative to several falls. Given a number of nuances of naval firing, such an adjustment, although it may lead to an increased expenditure of projectiles, but allows you to cover the target much faster than the traditional fork.

But if the “single-faced” battleship tries to shoot a double ledge (with an interval of, for example, 10 seconds between volleys), then it will launch 12 shells not for 40, but for 60 seconds, since the waiting time between the first and second and second and third volleys guns will stand idle. Thus, the commander of the American battleship had to choose between fire performance, or modern methods of shooting. The choice was made in favor of fire performance - and before, and on time, and for a long time after the First World War, the US fleet was shot in full salvo. For the sake of justice, it should be noted that this was not the result of “single-arm” towers - the Americans simply thought that at long distances of the battle it would be more convenient to correct shooting at the falls of full volleys.

However, the shooting with full salvos caused other difficulties, which, strangely enough, the Americans simply did not notice on their own. As we have said, the “single-lumen” scheme has a potential advantage over the classical one in accuracy due to the lack of misalignment of the axes of the barrels, but in practice it can be realized only when firing with incomplete volleys. But with full volleys, dispersion, on the contrary, increases sharply with respect to the classical scheme due to the proximity of the axes of the barrels and the effects of expanding gases escaping from the barrels on the projectiles emanating from neighboring guns. For example, in the two-gun towers of the Oklahoma battleship, the specified distance was 2,24 m, and in the three-gun one - only 1,5 m. At the exercises, after the volleys of the three-gun towers, American sailors sometimes observed collisions (!) Of shells fired by them in flight.

Nevertheless, the problem was not realized, but was taken for granted, and so it continued until the USA at the end of the First World War did not send their dreadnoughts to support Britain. Of course, the American ships were both based and trained along with the English, and it was here that the US admirals realized that the shells dispersed in the battleships of the British battleships were much smaller than those of the US - and this was true of the US ships with two-turrets! As a result, in the United States created a special device that introduces a small delay of the guns of one turret in the salvo - they fired with a difference in time 0,06 seconds. It is usually mentioned that the use of this device (first installed on US ships in 1918 g) made it possible to reduce dispersion by half, but for the sake of justice, it was not possible to manage with one device. So, on the battleship "New York" in order to reduce dispersion at the maximum firing distance (alas, cable is not specified) from 730 to 360 m, in addition to the delay of the shot, the initial velocity of the projectiles was also reduced - and again, it is not reported how . That is, the accuracy, and hence the accuracy of the American guns, was improved, but also due to a certain drop in armor penetration.

The rhetorical question: if similar problems with the dispersion had relatively good two-gun towers of the Americans, then what happened to the three-gun?

Nevertheless, a number of authors, for example, such as AV Mandel, undertake to assert that the shortcomings of the towers of American battleships were mostly theoretical in nature and did not manifest themselves in practice. In support of this point of view, for example, the results of the test shooting of the battleship Oklahoma for 1924 / 25 are given ...

But we will discuss this in the next article.

To be continued ...
102 comments
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  1. +4
    19 January 2019 05: 34
    Good morning, colleague! Help me figure it out: among Americans, barrel survivability is a 1 percent or 11 percent drop in the initial velocity of the projectile?
    Also a huge fundamental question: didn’t the serial installation of shot delay devices take place in the 30 years?
    And another fundamental question: what steel did the Yankees shoot to determine armor penetration?
    1. 0
      19 January 2019 17: 25
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      Help me figure it out: among Americans, barrel survivability is a drop in the initial velocity of the projectile by 1 percent or by 11?

      I do not know the exact value, but this is clearly not 1%.
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      Also a huge fundamental question: didn’t the serial installation of shot delay devices take place in the 30 years?

      And here I may have made a mistake, and the double scattering reduction in New York in 1918 was achieved without it. I will check
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      And another fundamental question: what steel did the Yankees shoot to determine armor penetration?

      This is not exactly known, but usually all countries used their own reservation data.
      1. +1
        20 January 2019 16: 37
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I don’t know the exact value, but this is clearly not 1%


        In different countries this indicator could differ from each other, but as far as I know, most often it was not about 1% or 11%, but about 10%.
  2. +2
    19 January 2019 06: 03
    And this time, without a jokes, the question is (I don’t have the most accurate data): when fired, the barrel experiences vibrations that are transmitted to the cradle, so the accuracy of successive firing from other trunks of the same cradle can be sharply affected, as was the case with amers?
    1. +1
      19 January 2019 17: 26
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      when fired, the barrel experiences vibrations that are transmitted to the cradle, so the accuracy of successive firing from other trunks of the same cradle can be sharply affected

      It should not, since the recoil is compensated individually for each weapon, with a simultaneous salvo, this effect, most likely, just does not have time to act
      1. +1
        20 January 2019 06: 04
        Debatable. Rollback is an ordered backward movement, and oscillations are trembling. Simultaneous shooting from one-armed is inefficient in principle, and the delay of the central shot = one hundred and five hundred will have time to act and will not have time to fade out. In general, it seems that the Americans agreed that they have eight guns on standards (this is a hyperbole, of course, but something like that)
  3. +2
    19 January 2019 06: 24
    Colleague, on the aids of PMV there were brands 1, 2, 3, 5 - where did the uncertainty in the types and the stories about brands 8, 9, 10 and 12 come from? Again, for two days only with the phone - if correct, I will apologize
    1. 0
      19 January 2019 17: 27
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      A colleague, on the PMR amers there were brands 1, 2, 3, 5 - where did the uncertainty in the types and stories about the brands 8, 9, 10 and 12 come from?

      Mandel, Chausov. Please note that the list of tools for 12 inclusive is already given as of WWII
      1. +1
        20 January 2019 14: 17
        The difference in the armor-piercing cap, etc. trifles), I propose to agree as follows:

        Armor Penetration with AP Mark 8

        Range Side Armor
        6,000 yards (5,490 m) 17.2" (437 mm)
        9,000 yards (8,230 m) 14.4" (366 mm)
        12,000 yards (10,920 m) 11.9" (302 mm)
        16,000 yards (14,630 m) 8.9" (226 mm)
        20,000 yards (18,290 m) 6.7" (170 mm)

        This data is from BuOrd table "Elements of US Naval Guns" of 17 May 1918 as published in "US Naval Weapons" and is for face hardened (Harvey) flat.
        1. +2
          20 January 2019 17: 06
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          I propose to agree as follows:

          Do you play along with the Americans? Well, well :))))) The table given by you characterizes the armor penetration of a completely different gun, 356mm / 50, which were installed on the battleships of New Mexico, laid down in 1915. Their initial speed was "slightly" higher - 853 m / s: )))))
          Or am I wrong?
          1. +1
            20 January 2019 17: 16
            I think they are wrong, these specific data for the 14 "/ 45 (35.6 cm) Marks 1, 2, 3 and 5 with the AP Mark 8 projectile were taken from NevalVipons
            please note that I have 9 yards = 000 mm Harvey,
            and you have about 10 yards = 000 mm Krupp armor
            who is playing along with the Americans?
            1. +1
              20 January 2019 17: 50
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              I think they are wrong, these specific data for the 14 "/ 45 (35.6 cm) Marks 1, 2, 3 and 5 with the AP Mark 8 projectile were taken from NevalVipons

              I’m afraid you’ve made a mistake here because 356-mm / 45 http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_14-45_mk10.php
              completely different (and completely crazy) armor penetration data are indicated
              But the table you provided is at http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_14-50_mk4.php
              i.e. on 356 mm / 50
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              I ask you to pay attention that I have 9 000 yards = 366 mm Harvey,

              This is not Harvey, Andrey, but Krupp, there in a footnote
              This data is from "Elements of US Naval Guns" of 1918 and General Board file 430 (1916). It is corrected for angle of fall.
              In general, in this case, EMNIP (I may be wrong, but) the Americans and the armor of the Krupp were sometimes called "hardened by the Harvey method", the point is that a strong surface layer was created for both, it is clear that Krupp was stronger, but ...
              And yes, I agree, armor penetration looks rather weak
              1. +1
                20 January 2019 20: 28
                How so?
                http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_14-45_mk1.php
                Designation 14"/45 (35.6 cm) Marks 1, 2, 3 and 5
                Ship Class Used On New York (B-34), Nevada (B-36) and Pennsylvania (B-38) classes
        2. +1
          20 January 2019 18: 41
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev

          The difference in the armor-piercing cap

          Could you explain what exactly?
  4. 0
    19 January 2019 06: 33
    Sorry for the obsession, cool, of course about 14 types of guns (at the same time there were no more than four and without significant differences), but first, we will deal with 4 modifications of the Mark 8 shell, which ones will we analyze?
    1. 0
      19 January 2019 17: 27
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      but, first, we will deal with 4 modifications of the Mark 8 shell, which ones will we analyze?

      But were there any serious deviations? I do not know about them
  5. +5
    19 January 2019 09: 20
    So we got to the Americans smile
    Because Personally, my interest in the development of American weapons systems is noticeably lower than in European ones, then a relatively detailed description using the example of the same "Pennsylvania" will be very useful. No, in general terms I am familiar with the development trend of the American fleet, I am too lazy to delve into the details feel
    So it will be interesting to know what the future "exceptional" were guided by when they created their "standard" battleships.
    As of today. I see the use of a single-arm circuit in towers only in the desire for a banal weight saving. There are many more cons! The Italians widely used this approach for their cruisers designed between the world wars, the Russians in their cruisers 26 and 26-bis (it is fair to replace that these ships were designed on the basis of the Italian ones and the placement of three main guns in one cradle was a disadvantage arising from - for the desire to have greater firepower, achieved by increasing the caliber of guns - therefore, our light cruisers carried 180mm guns), the French on their Dunkirk and Richelieu ... artillery battle really failed request
    Plus to the author, we are waiting for the continuation !!!
    Best regards, hi
    1. +1
      19 January 2019 09: 30
      The Italians had a bunch of opportunities to prove the effectiveness of single-armed artillery to the impudent during the WWII. wassat
      1. +1
        19 January 2019 09: 36
        laughing
        "There were a lot of opportunities" and a real, relatively long fight are two big differences. wink
        1. +2
          19 January 2019 09: 59
          Fight is when both can get feel
          1. +1
            19 January 2019 10: 29
            The Germans and the British proved these things ... And repeatedly Yes
      2. +4
        19 January 2019 13: 45
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        The Italians had a bunch of opportunities to prove the effectiveness of single-armed artillery to the impudent during the WWII.

        The Italians had plenty of opportunities to prove the poor quality of the shells. With sufficiently high quality guns, the shells suffered from large weight "backlashes", therefore, they had different ballistics, which is why a large spread even when firing from one gun in the turret. In our time, they are used to attributing this to the guns themselves, but this is most likely an erroneous point of view, since poor manufacturing of shells would have been enough headlong for the problems that Italians faced when firing at medium and long distances from their guns.

        By the way, the situation is very typical - ignoring issues of the quality of ammunition leads to a complete failure in terms of the combat effectiveness of the ships and the possibility of influencing the enemy’s ships. This has been observed regularly in different fleets of the world since the end of the 19th century, when ammunition, explosives and gunpowder began to evolve much faster than before. Spain to the Spanish-American, Russia to the REV, Great Britain to WWI, Italy to WWII ...
        1. +1
          20 January 2019 06: 25
          Good afternoon, my colleague, I repent, I don’t know about the weighted backlash of Italians, I would be grateful for the exact Old, I would try to calculate it, just one kilogram of weather will not do, and I will never believe in 25 kg backlash without very convincing proofs. Let's try to figure it out together
          1. +2
            20 January 2019 12: 50
            Colleague Shmelev, about low quality Italian. I also read ammunition. Perhaps it's not only / not a little in the weight spread, but in the "curvature")) - a large deviation of the center of gravity from the axis of the projectile due to the position of the int. charge caverns. If external. the surface passes through the fur. processing after casting, then internal - not always, besides, when accepting a finished batch, it is not "obvious"))
            1. 0
              20 January 2019 13: 21
              Well, actually, yes, I somehow reduced the quality of the workmanship only to the accuracy of the weight distribution of the shells, although I myself was thinking about everything else, here is the quality of the material for the shells, and the centering of the weight, and the absence of backlash in linear dimensions (EMNIP, Italians even had a difference in the actual caliber of the shells, not so large that they could not be used at all in the guns, but already leading to the fact that one shell drove tightly into the barrel, and the other had a gap in 1-2mm, which by itself with shot led to deviations in the ballist ke), etc. All this was caused by the low production discipline in the munitions factories - gun factories, the production of boilers and turbines suffered from this to a much lesser extent.
            2. +1
              20 January 2019 13: 55
              Anzar’s colleague, the shell is spinning, so slight imbalances are compensated, of course, significant imbalances will affect, but military representatives have not noticed this for many years and the customer believes with great difficulty
          2. 0
            20 January 2019 13: 01
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            I will be grateful for the exact info

            Alas, one of my bad habits is not keeping the original sources. I usually do some research solely for my own sake, and therefore not so much sources are important as information. I also read foreign sources about the low quality of manufacturing of Italian shells (where the "bottlenecks" of the Italian industry in WWII were indicated in general, this was not the only problem), but I can only remember our MorKolovskaya monograph on "Zaram", which briefly indicates significant problems with the quality of shells on Italian ships, and then - I can be wrong, and there seemed to be no specific numbers there. I came to the conclusion that the point is not in the mythical "overshooting" of the cannons after comparing the characteristics of Italy's artillery with contemporaries - there are less powerful, there are also more powerful cannons that were not considered overrated. However, there is a caveat - provided that the Italians used the correct grades of steel, in the case of using outdated, unsuitable, high pressure during a shot could really lead to accelerated wear of the guns, but I did not find information about Italy's lag in metallurgy to WWII.
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            just one kilogram of weather will not do

            It depends on which shell, depending on what distances to shoot. WWII - war, when the shooting was carried out at long distances. The British, with good cannons and excellent shells on their light cruisers, spent several hours sinking the Espero from long range, throwing a lot of shells into the wind. If these shells had a weight of + - 1kg, i.e. differed in weight by 2-4 percent (approximately), then at a long distance this would greatly increase the spread, it would have turned out even worse .. In general, to WWII, the production of shells is already a hi-tech and a very accurate direction, any backlash of several percent could be fatal. On land, this is somehow easier, since the calibers of the guns and the firing distance are smaller, but at sea ... Colleague Andrei, most likely, can give details, along with some literature on this topic, he is already like- then I briefly considered the topic of the importance of the quality of the shells, although not in a separate post.
            1. +1
              20 January 2019 13: 52
              So I read the marine collection:

              The guns were placed in a common cradle, this created difficulties with their operation and increased the likelihood of simultaneous failure in battle - a disadvantage inherent in all Italian cruisers, up to the "Garibaldi" type. The problem was aggravated by the extremely small distance between the axes of the barrels - only 100 cm (for comparison: the towers of the American "Washington" cruisers of the first generation were 117 cm, the Japanese ones - 190 cm, and the German "hippers" - even 216 cm). Coupled with a significant difference in the mass of shells, this led to a large dispersion: for a salvo of one tower, it averaged 150 m at a distance of 20 km .... In pursuit of the firing range, they over-forced the ballistics of the guns, as a result, the survivability of the barrels and the dispersion of shells became the Achilles heel of almost all Italian naval artillery. If we add to this the close arrangement of barrels in a common cradle, a significant spread in the weight of projectiles, the absence of flameless gunpowder and devices for night shooting, then we can conclude that the effectiveness of artillery "Zara" is inferior to most foreign "classmates".

              About a violation of the balance there is not a word.
              It is much more important that the Americans and the pasta on cruisers REFUSED the one-cure scheme in the 30 years.
              1. 0
                20 January 2019 14: 22
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                About a violation of the balance there is not a word.

                But there is about the difference in mass:
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                Together with a significant difference in the mass of shells, this led to a large dispersion

                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                significant variation in projectile weight


                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                In pursuit of the firing range, they excessively boosted the ballistics of the guns

                If you look at the characteristics of the Italian 203-mm guns, you will see that the main criterion for forcing a gun is the working pressure when firing (and not the initial velocity, as some believe) - for the Zar and Bolzano guns only by 50 kg / cm2 more than the best 203-mm guns of their time, the German ones, which are from the "Admiral Hipper", and on the "Trento" it is even 400kg less.
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                ultimately trunk survivability

                The survivability of the trunks of the Italian 203-mm guns is unknown to us laughing Seriously, I haven’t met anywhere, including Patyanin’s. But, nevertheless, statements are made that this survivability was lower. What are these statements based on?

                According to the LMS, yes, the Italians had it ... It was peculiar, combining advanced solutions with archaism, but for some reason, when criticizing the Italian LMS, they usually forget that the British on cruisers before the introduction of artillery radars had generally a primitive LMS, almost of the level of PMA. And yes, the distance between the axes of the barrels is, of course, an interesting indicator, but it "solves" only when firing full volleys, which was practiced extremely rarely, with the possible exception of British cruisers.

                I do not underestimate the importance and volume of Patyanin's work in writing a monograph on Italian cruisers, but all this was written a long time ago, when the information was much less available, and the author, like any person, is not sinless, and may be wrong. For statements about the conversion of Italian guns, I still have not found solid grounds, but there is enough information about problems with shells.
                1. +1
                  20 January 2019 14: 36
                  "forcing" is a relative concept in relation to the technical capabilities of the manufacturer
                  what was normal for the Germans in WWI - it can easily be beyond the capabilities of Italians and WWII (this applies to manufacturing accuracy, design quality, and materials)
                  1. 0
                    20 January 2019 14: 54
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    (this applies to manufacturing accuracy, design quality, and materials)

                    Including artillery shells smile The problem is that poor results apply to the entire Italian artillery, although it could be some unsuccessful samples, or the manufacturers fitted a bad batch of shells to a good gun, because of which the result was ... Not very. There are widespread claims that Italian guns are bad because they are reformed, have no more basis under them than that the shells are lousy, they are simply widely circulated. At the same time, Italians complained about the low quality of the shells and the spread in quality, depending on the batch, even from one manufacturing plant, to say nothing of different ones. Here's a quick info from an Italian historian, Maurizio di Shullo:
                    the firms producing the ammunition did not all produce projectiles of proper quality. [Admiral Angelo] Iachino complained about this in post-war books. Some actions showed a run of good projectiles, where others were plagued by terribly bad examples. Possibly the greatest contrast was seen between the shooting of Littorio in the first battle of Sirte Gulf and that of Vittorio Veneto in the 28 March Guado encounter. Despite the fact that Littorio was shooting at targets 32,000 yards away while Veneto was attacking at first Orion and afterwards Gloucester at only 24,000 yards, the Littorio's shot groups were significantly more consistent, despite the greater range, doubtlessly owing to a batch of properly fabricated 381 -mm projectiles.

                    Short translation - "Littorio", shooting at 32 thousand yards, showed better accuracy using a batch of good quality shells, and "Vittorio Venetto" fired worse shells at a closer range with a greater spread than "Littorio". At the same time, complaints about the shells, and not about the guns, are attributed to Admiral Angelo Yakino, and he, as the commander of the Italian fleet, should have known closely similar features of his artillery. Unfortunately, I did not read Yakino himself, although it would be interesting, because the history written by the winners is a priori false, and to find plausibility it is necessary to compare both points of view - both the winners and the losers.

                    In general, I have so far met complaints about the conversion of Italian guns mainly in Russian-language sources, foreign speakers with a reference to the Italians themselves most often speak precisely about the quality of the shells (and at times about the quality of the LMS). The Italians, I suppose, know better what they had there with artillery smile
                    1. +1
                      20 January 2019 15: 19
                      In the Russian-language literature, the big difference in the mass of shells is mentioned in the "Superlinkors of Mussolini" by Malov and Patyanin hi
                      1. +1
                        20 January 2019 15: 41
                        And Patyanin has the same thing in monographs about heavy cruisers. But information about reformed guns, as you know, is much more smile Although, in addition to statements about her, no specifics))
              2. +1
                20 January 2019 14: 27
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                It is much more important that the Americans and the pasta on cruisers REFUSED the one-cure scheme in the 30 years.

                Because yes, separate cradles are more profitable, no one argues with this, especially in terms of sighting. But the one-moon is not as worse as they sometimes try to describe.
                1. +1
                  20 January 2019 14: 34
                  But the one-moon is not as worse as they sometimes try to describe. belay - the one-armed gives almost a freebie an almost one-half superiority in the number of trunks, there would be 8 on Amer’s standards - it became 12, Soviet cruisers had 6 according to the project - it became 9, a temptation, however)
                  Practical conclusion: a one and a half-fold increase in the number of trunks - does not pay for the one-circuit scheme, since it was abandoned
                  1. +1
                    20 January 2019 14: 39
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    single-breasted gives almost a freebie one and a half superiority in the number of trunks

                    However, the number of trunks ceased to be a decisive factor at the end of the WWII. With good SLAs and 8 enough, why sculpt more? Plus, I repeat, installations with different cradles are better, no one argues with this - but one-armed ones are not so terrible either.
                    1. 0
                      20 January 2019 15: 48
                      However, the number of trunks ceased to be a decisive factor at the end of the WWII. good
                      but the one-armed are not so terrible - yeah, if you don’t shoot the central cannon at all wassat
                      colleague drinks
                      1. 0
                        20 January 2019 16: 00
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        yeah, if you don’t shoot the central weapon at all

                        Well, tell me why the central gun in a single-armed installation can’t shoot? smile Are you talking about the small distance between the axes of the guns? So I already said - when shooting it is not so important, full salvos were not practiced as often as you might think, the British most actively used them, and even not from a good life (because of various tricks on three-gun 152-mm towers).
                      2. 0
                        20 January 2019 16: 10
                        why can't the central gun in a one-arm mount shoot? - as Guderian once said (on a different occasion, of course): "You can shoot, but you can't hit" laughing :
                        -with simultaneous salvo, all THREE shells will fly by (the Americans didn’t shoot differently until the 30s)
                        -when a volley with a delay on the cradle, a vibration from the vibrations of the first two fired guns is thrown (this is still clearly better than the first option, but with respect to the standards - see point one) BUT and here a completely different furry animal suddenly appears: how to control the shooting, if 4 out of 12 shells still fly crookedly - imagine that you are a skartometr of such a battleship and try to write yourself instructions for work fellow
                      3. +2
                        20 January 2019 17: 08
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        with a simultaneous salvo, all three shells fly past

                        Sorry, forgot the Americans, but it’s the problem of the Americans that they shot in full gulp smile
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        when a salvo with a delay on the cradle, vibration from the oscillations of the first two fired guns

                        This is your thought, which is not reliable information. I believe that if they fired from a medium cannon with a slight delay, which was driven mechanically there (in modern language - programmatically), then the delay was chosen just in view of the possibility of such an effect - tea, not fools, people smile In addition, the gun with the cradle is communicated by means of anti-recoil devices, which also dampen vibrations, and the single cradle itself is a massive thing, what are your guarantees that the vibrations of some guns will affect others in this way?

                        And yes, you stubbornly ignore the possibility of shooting with not full salvos, which in the world was practiced more often. A full salvo is in itself an undesirable phenomenon for the ship, very large simultaneous loads on the tower, hull, etc., which is fraught with various unpleasant consequences.
                      4. 0
                        20 January 2019 17: 22
                        This is your thought winked - What is the other reason that forced to abandon the one-armed structure, despite the free-span increase in the number of guns by a factor of XNUMX, and despite the device for delaying the shot?
                        what are your guarantees - this is obvious from a technical point of view, the only question is the degree of influence of fluctuations
                        I have a specific version with a reason for rejecting "one-way", for the calculations of which I, however, do not have enough initial data on the cradles, you not only do not have a version, but even attempts to explain otherwise the rejection of the "one-way"
                      5. +2
                        20 January 2019 17: 32
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        What is the other reason that made the one-armed construction to be abandoned, despite a freebie increase in the number of guns by one and a half times, and despite the device for delaying the shot?

                        - complete independence of loading and vertical guidance of each gun;
                        - improving the working conditions of the calculations;
                        - reducing the tightness of the layout of the tower;
                        - yes, yes, the very reduction in the impact of guns on each other when firing in full salvo;

                        You see, what’s the problem - with some youthful maximalism, you think that there is only the best, and it sucks, and not only with the layout of the towers smile At the same time, the whole history of shipbuilding is a series of compromises, and any decision has its pluses and minuses (except frankly stupid). Separate and single-armed placement of guns is a classic example here - if you want somewhat better shooting conditions and are willing to pay with large dimensions and weight, then separate the weapons separately, if you have atrocious restrictions on weight and dimensions (which is a topical issue for times of contractual restrictions) - choose a single-armed . So, if there are no particular restrictions, then the stump is clear, separate charging is almost inevitable, but this does not mean that one cradle will be much worse, we are talking about some deterioration of the individual characteristics of the installation, but not that it is such a whole sucks.
                      6. +1
                        20 January 2019 20: 20
                        Well why everybody scold me recourse
                        I simply proceed from a simple thought: there is the possibility of almost free then, instead of 8 GC guns, to push 12 GC guns.
                        Americans and marakonniki took advantage and refused, which means that they considered 8 dicotyledons better than 12 one-celled ones (I’m not saying that 12 one-cared ones sucks, but I just come to the conclusion that they are less effective than 8 one-celled ones)
                        I also considered versions with working conditions, loading, etc., but I considered only one significant one - with the transfer of vibrations to the cradle, since all other problems can be solved relatively simply.
                        Threat. I don’t really believe in Italian admirals, for example, because Littorio also didn’t get good shells)
                      7. +1
                        20 January 2019 23: 33
                        Well, why everyone scolds me, I just come from a simple thought ...

                        Apparently the idea is too simple))
                        ..there is the possibility of almost free then, instead of 8 guns of the main gun, to push 12 guns of the main gun.

                        Colleague, estimate the "freebie" in tons or% and see what extra. 4 guns are not "free" at all. For example weight 2 and 3 op. towers of Nevad. And this is the weight without the barbet.
                        .. Americans and marakonniki took advantage and refused
                        When the Americans refused, the problems of this new design were not worked out (including organizationally) and then switched to larger guns and 12 were not included in the allotted weight. And in the end, there were no restrictions.
                      8. -1
                        21 January 2019 04: 32
                        estimate the "freebie" in tons or% and see what extra. 4 guns are not "free" at all - show an example in practice wink

                        first, calculate the proportions of the mass of barbets: 8,53 m and 9,14 m (I take the initial data according to Mandel)

                        how to do it, take the Pennsylvania Triple and compare it with the two-gun Nevada (the three-gun Nevada was not effectively compressed), then subtract the mass of the guns and mechanisms and find the proportion

                        There are other suggestions and numbers - I will be grateful. drinks
                        If not, consider, and then continue on, ok?
                      9. +2
                        21 January 2019 13: 45
                        There are other suggestions ...

                        Eating:
                        1. Put aside the "teaching" tone and do not give others "tasks" to prove their own. statements. The saved time can be spent on calculating the effect of vibration on the accuracy of a projectile fired FROM THE SAME BARREL)) “I admit” that it will be an order of magnitude greater than on neighboring ones))
                        2. Don't assume navweaps is accurate in everything. There are quite a few errors of two types: those that came from sources, and our own (copy-pastes on the wrong page). The second increased greatly when the site switched to a new interface 5-6 years ago (you probably don’t remember)) Although then gradually most of them were caught, but they still occur.
                        3. Don't try to slander the articles of Andrey from Ch. To your question „but, first, we will deal with 4 modifications of the Mark 8 shell, which ones will we analyze?“The answer is none! for although the shells are important, they are not a property of a particular ship, but it analyzes ships. Or according to your brit. queens before the development of the “greenboy” and then different ships?
                        Or is it not Chesplerian? Then learn to answer yourself and generally conduct discussion - and so half of the comments here are yours
                        Best wishes: ... drinks
                      10. -1
                        21 January 2019 14: 42
                        Yes sir! laughing

                        First, I give the results offhand by weight:
                        the weight of the armored cover of the tower’s barbette for 2 high guns of almost 600 tons + the weight of the mechanisms and structure of the barbet is about 225 tons = about 820 tons
                        the mass of the armored cover of the barbet of the "triple" tower of the sublime "compressed type" is about 640 tons + the weight of the mechanisms and structure of the barbet is also about 225 tons = no more than 870 tons
                        The difference in mass of barbet and its structure is SIX percent.
                        Colleague, 120 tons of the difference in the mass of the tower (excluding the additional barrel) + 50 tons of barbet = almost "for free", as I wrote.
                        Well, if correct, I will be grateful.

                        Second, calculations for the subsequent shot can be omitted if you shoot no more than once per minute.

                        Third, I do not consider "navweaps to be accurate in everything" - therefore I do not state anything categorically - please pay attention, I often write like "I will be grateful" for alternative numbers.

                        Fourth, my main job involves constant showdowns on the topic of "who is smarter from a technical point of view", so I'm not here to arrange showdowns (and there is enough), but to understand. Andrey from Chelyabinsk can sometimes be pinned up, this will not affect his status as a local guru. But in the discussion, truth can be born. I apologize in advance for being too harsh sometimes.

                        Regards drinks
                      11. +2
                        21 January 2019 16: 43
                        SW. colleague, since for me fleet is just a hobby, I don’t like to get involved in too much “accuracy” (besides not changing the essence), but your will ... I will try))
                        First ...
                        "Triple" towers of sublime "compressed type" about 640 tons + mass of mechanisms and barbet patterns also (??) about 225 tons ... “

                        where did they get that reinforcements towers for 2 and 3 of the same guns, projectively shooting full salvos weigh the same ?? Also sublime! Not at all! The same goes for the “mass of mechanisms” for towers of different weights.
                        “Colleague, 120 tons of the difference in the mass of the tower (excluding the additional barrel) ...

                        736 mt - 541 mt = 195 meter tone Eto 36% difference! (i.e., the weight is only 75t less than the proportional to the number of guns) And this is without taking into account the difference in weight reinforcements. Where is the "freebie"?
                        Second, calculations for the subsequent shot can be omitted if you shoot no more than once per minute.

                        Which is the “next”? I’m talking about the “same” shot))) Or are you talking about the barrel vibrations (which you call “vibrations”) after the shot? So then the neighboring shells also left the trunks, the difference is 30-40m. And the trunks are not so long to swing very much. And the sea is worried ...)))
                        Fourth ... ... so I’m not going to have a showdown here (and that's enough), but sort it out ...

                        But often go into excessive details (not always accurate)) that fundamentally do not change things and hardly anyone cares, but can be important only in the aspect of "who is smarter than everyone from a technical point of view"
                        hi
                      12. -1
                        21 January 2019 17: 12
                        736 mt - 541 mt = 195 meter tone Eto 36% difference! (i.e., the weight is only 75t less than the proportional to the number of guns) And this is without taking into account the difference in the weight of reinforcements. Where is the "freebie"?

                        For those in the tank:
                        533 tons without guns and 413 tons without guns it was said in Russian

                        A freebie is considered a proportion with the mass of BARBET, - I brought you above:
                        - the mass of armored cover of the tower barbet on 2 guns of an elevated almost 600 tons
                        - the mass of the armored cover of the barbett of the "triple" tower of the sublime "compressed type" is about 640 tons

                        Where did they get it that the tower's reinforcements for 2 and 3 of the same cannons, designed to shoot full volleys, weigh the same ?? - said to you "ALL the structure of the barbet", do you think the lifts and electric motors do not weigh a single gram and count only reinforcements? - then I will still upset you: the main load on reinforcements is created by ARMOR, and it is almost equally divided in the same barbets

                        Why should I consider fluctuations in one shot if the type of cradle does not affect one shot?

                        Do you have numbers? Or just insult?
                        Well, yes, for a bunch of alternative people, "triple" is Santa Claus, who drives up herds of pink ponies, laying tons of fried ice cream with emmams
                        I don’t believe in Santa Claus.

                        Put me 10 more minuses, but at least I know arithmetic.
                      13. 0
                        31 January 2019 14: 38
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        The difference in mass of barbet and its structure is SIX percent.


                        With an increase in the diameter of the barbet (this is an element weakening the force set), the mass of the reinforcing force set of amplifications grows exponentially.
                        For example, when designing Iowa-type LC variants, the following results were obtained:
                        an increase in the diameter of the barbet from 11,35 m to 11,99 m, which gave a total of an additional 1600 tons on the installations and armor of the barbets, plus another 400 tons would be required to strengthen the body.

                        That is, the mass of reinforcements with an increase in the diameter of the barbet by 640 mm +400 t
                      14. 0
                        31 January 2019 18: 37
                        Good afternoon, colleague, I will answer the vskidku (I am writing from the phone at the airport): the mass of the longitudinal connections of the body grows depending on the specific structure of a particular body, here we will not count, IMHO; the mass of reinforcements under the barbet with a tower should grow exponentially, but this growth will not cancel the colossal gain in the mass of "one-man". If I remember correctly, 1600 plus 400 ran over Iowa from replacing guns and turrets, so it's not just a barbet) (if I'm stupid - write, there are no sources at hand)
                      15. +2
                        21 January 2019 15: 05
                        Everything is super, but I never agree with one:
                        The British Queens with Greenboy are completely different than without him, and with Bluebend fellow
                        Similarly, Sevastopol with the shell of 1911 became much stronger, and even when the fuse arr. 1913 fitted fellow
                        The ship is built in order to produce shells (this is its final consumer product), therefore, to analyze it without shells is the same as bees without honey - Tsushima guaranteed 100500 percent
                      16. +1
                        21 January 2019 16: 59
                        Phew, one last time!
                        Similarly, Sevastopol with the shell of 1911 became much stronger, and even when the fuse arr. 1913 winged fellow

                        And if the team is trained ...))) You write yourself, but somehow it doesn’t penetrate you ... ((Here we look at the construction of the battleships at the time of bookmarking! WHAT did the new projectile change the DESIGN of the ship? And to the WWII range and aviation did thin decks nonsense. And what? Announce Cesarevich (if he survives) is better than Sevastopol?
                      17. 0
                        21 January 2019 18: 27
                        Here we look at the design of the battleships at the time of bookmarking! - belay
                        Why to bookmark moment, but not as of November 1918?

                        WHAT did the new shell change the DESIGN of the ship? -
                        Once again for those in the tank:
                        The ship is built in order to produce shells (this is its final consumer product), so analyzing it without shells is like bees without honey - Tsushima is guaranteed to be 100500 percent.
                      18. 0
                        3 February 2019 13: 15
                        Once again for those who are in the tank:
                        The ship is being built in order to produce shells (this is its final consumer product)

                        If so, why is it myopic? Then the "end product" is not shells at all, but a (favorable) peace treaty with a defeated enemy)))
                        New shells can (and have been developed) later, but changing the design of the ship is much more difficult. Therefore, we compare it (to the project; bookmark; entry into operation or some other date). And then "Bayan" with an atomic projectile from Peony will be cooler than Pensilvania))
                      19. 0
                        3 February 2019 13: 38
                        New shells can (and were developed) later on, and changing the design of the ship is much more difficult. winked
                        - Colleague, the fact is that the projectiles (the shot is more accurate) and the gun are developed together, a lot (for example, the steepness of the cutting) is developed for a specific shot, so you will not get overwhelmed (well, or you will get "side effects")
                        - The design of the ship also sometimes changes very, very (Congo, Nagato, etc.)

                        Ships are built for combat (real or possible). Therefore, it is necessary to compare them at a time when the potential probability of a battle was high and under the same conditions. The point is to flood on a topic, for example, how "Stormbreaker" would "Yakumo" beat in the North Atlantic in winter)

                        If, for example, from "Sevastopol" unload arr. 1911 and download arr. 1891 (which was in the warehouses at the time of laying), then he needs to prove his worth to "Lord Nelson", and not to his contemporaries laughing

                        -Bayan atomic shell to Pennsylvania bully I’m all the same for analyzing REALLY existing options

                        Threat. The characteristics of the team also often determine the real characteristics of the ship (the skill of stokers, for example) and even the quality of coal also determines (the Japanese have little good coal = a problem with range and stealth)
                      20. 0
                        3 February 2019 13: 56
                        З
                        s. The characteristics of the team also often determine the real characteristics of the ship ...

                        Are you quoting me ?? (see here anzar January 21, 2019 16:59 p.m.))) Here I am about that - we are not considering the team, admirals too, we are considering the SHIPS.
                        Therefore, they must be compared at a time when the potential probability of a battle was high and under the same conditions

                        No, here we consider how this fight was imagined by the designers, and only then how it came out (or could be) in real life.
                        ... like how "Stormbreaker" would "Yakumo" hit in the North Atlantic in winter

                        This is interesting, but Yakumo has nothing to do there, put what thread "Good Hope"))
                      21. 0
                        3 February 2019 14: 11
                        So I'm talking about that - we are not considering the team, admirals too, we are considering the SHIPS.
                        Ships do not exist in a vacuum: for example, it is difficult for the Japanese to carry 150 mm shells on a wave, so 140 mm is generally much better for them, but not for the Germans. Therefore, we consider COMPLEX. and we consider coal, and docking conditions

                        No, here we consider how this fight was imagined by the designers, and only then how it came out (or could be) in real life.
                        1. Thus, the designers also did not work in a vacuum and did not represent the battle in a vacuum. Visibility in the North Pore is 60-100 cable, and in the tropics of the Pacific Ocean to the horizon = what is the standard range of visibility for determining the firing distance in our case?
                        2. Often they did NOT imagine the battle, because they did not know the details about the enemy.

                        This is interesting, but Yakumo has nothing to do there, put what thread "Good Hope"))
                        So I'm talking about the need for real combat capabilities.
                      22. 0
                        3 February 2019 15: 32
                        Ships do not exist in a vacuum: for example, it is difficult for the Japanese to carry 150-mm shells on a rampage ..

                        This is the problem of the Japanese, others, for example, had "stupid" customers ...
                        ... Therefore, we consider the COMPLEX. and consider coal, and docking conditions ...

                        And more money - the size of budgets and the economy as a whole ... as well as the state of public enlightenment)))
                        SW colleague, no such COMPLEX is not considered statically, it will be too broad. Everything is influenced, mentioned, but if you want in such detail, write himself, but here you are kind enough to comment in the volume in which the author is considering.
                      23. 0
                        3 February 2019 19: 30
                        Andrey from Chelyabinsk (author) in a post about the T-34 did just that, as I suggested)))
                      24. 0
                        20 January 2019 21: 35
                        Just got to Friedman:

                        BuOrd also commented (in 1920) on whether the US Navy would be wise to adopt British practice and mount eight rather than twelve guns in battleships. Under ideal conditions, with perfectly-functioning instruments and plotting, BuOrd agreed that eight guns would perform slightly better, but in reality at long range fire would be opened at a calculated range which would probably be incorrect ... the Bureau believes the Arizona to be more effective than the Warspite under normal conditions of battle. '
                      25. 0
                        20 January 2019 21: 43
                        Yeah. But has the correctness of American estimates been confirmed in practice? As far as I remember, no smile Already in the 1930 years, between 9 heavy and 12 lighter guns they preferred to have 9 heavier ones. Yes, which one - they switched to the 8 406-mm guns very soon.
                      26. 0
                        21 January 2019 04: 40
                        A colleague, the Bureau was pushed against the wall and it agreed that:
                        Under ideal conditions, with perfectly-functioning instruments and plotting, BuOrd agreed that eight guns would perform slightly betterthan twelve
                        Everything else looks like excuses, so as not to be kicked out with a wolf ticket
  6. +3
    19 January 2019 09: 32
    Some people even suggested leaving only 8 of these guns, but the idea of ​​building the latest battleships weaker than the ships of the previous series did not find a positive response, even though the proposed displacement was proposed to be used to strengthen the defense.


    This is more likely not a proposal, but a study of one of the options for the ship of the line. The displacement of the project was supposed to be 24 thousand tons, the armament was 8 - 14 inch guns of the "Mark II 14-inch breech-loading rifle" model. Projectile weight 635 kg, muzzle velocity 792 m / s, at a distance of 9000 meters pierced Krupp's 12-inch armor.

    but what kind, perhaps, the Americans themselves do not remember, at least failed to find exact data in Russian-language literature


    The history of the creation of the 14-inch gun in the United States begins in 1906, to tell about all the developments, not that commentary, articles are not enough.
  7. 0
    19 January 2019 11: 29
    hi ... most sources indicate that there were three charging lifts.
    Pearl Harbor in the months after the devastating Japanese attack on December 7, 1941. Shipyard. Repair of the USS Nevada, which later participated in the invasions of Normandy, Southern France, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Nevada was a target ship in the atomic bomb test of a bikini in 1946.
    1. +1
      19 January 2019 12: 16
      The video shows completely different towers and guns :)))))
      1. 0
        19 January 2019 12: 20
        ... Does the lift look like?
        1. 0
          19 January 2019 17: 28
          Quote: san4es
          ..And the lift looks like?

          Who knows?:))))
  8. +5
    19 January 2019 13: 38
    All is well, but not enough laughing
    It is customary for us to idealize American battleships, extolling their weapons, and "all or nothing," and many of their other features. Meanwhile, they have something to criticize for ... And in comparison with their contemporaries, they may not look so positive. A detailed look at this case, IMHO, in terms of a detailed analysis of the history and military equipment of the past is very important and instructive.
    1. +1
      19 January 2019 15: 16
      Quote: arturpraetor
      It is customary for us to idealize American battleships, extolling their weapons, and "all or nothing," and many of their other features. Meanwhile, there is something to criticize them for.


      We can compare ships from different countries and will always find both advantages and disadvantages.
      The Americans built their battleships based on the concept of a six-hour battle. This is the range of the battle, the reservation and the same number of shots per barrel. The latter may seem strange, but they believed that part of the main caliber guns would be out of order, so the remaining should have a barrel survivability allowing the use of the remaining shells.
      1. +1
        19 January 2019 15: 22
        This is all understandable, but the fact is that too often on the Internet I have come across evaluations idealizing American battleships, almost more often than a similar phenomenon in the direction of German ships. But I don’t like idealizing anything, either the American dreadnoughts themselves - I can’t call them bad, but, IMHO, British and German ships will still be better in terms of a set of characteristics. Of course, we are talking only about ships up to a certain point, to the battleships of the USA from the time of WWII I personally have not so many questions as to dreadnoughts.
        1. +1
          19 January 2019 16: 15
          Quote: arturpraetor

          This is all understandable, but the fact is that too often on the Internet I have had to deal with ratings idealizing American battleships


          It seems to me that all these estimates are based on reports on tests carried out at the ranges of shells, guns, turret installations, small excerpts from them periodically appear in our publications. If you read them completely in the original, you involuntarily catch yourself thinking that all equipment, armor, guns and shells have been tested dozens of times, all the shortcomings have been eliminated and the best and highest quality has been selected. But they were not tested in battles. For me, preference should be given to the industrial capabilities and organizational abilities of the leaders of the Navy.
        2. 0
          19 January 2019 18: 08
          Good evening.
          Did the United States have full-fledged battleships before and during WWII? The same "Iowa", it's all the same battle cruisers. 307 mm. in the side and 121 mm deck, this is still not armor for a full-fledged battleship. Battlecruiser on steroids.
          1. 0
            19 January 2019 18: 15
            Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
            307 mm. on board and 121 mm deck, it is still not armor for a full-fledged battleship.

            And did not contemporaries have comparable or slightly thicker belts? smile Or do you consider only Yamato as a full-fledged battleship? And yes, "North Caroline" and "Sodak" are you also going to write in battle cruisers?
            1. 0
              19 January 2019 19: 38
              Why not? They have lightweight armor sacrificed for speed or range. And "soft" extremities. The "contractual" British and French battleships, with much less weight, have much more solid armor, either 14-15 "or the inner 330mm. Belt. The Germans have + the slope of the armored deck to 320 - 350 mm. So, I do not agree with you that they have a booking comparable to that of the “Europeans.” And here, in principle, the dispute is meaningless - would the Bismarck have made the Iowa in the Danish Strait one on one or not.
              1. +1
                19 January 2019 19: 46
                Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
                And why not?

                You must prove that American ships with 308-mm belt armor are obligatory and only battle cruisers, and Bismarck with a 320-mm belt and Richelieu with 330-mm belt are battleships smile Because one, and the second and third officially are battleships, and I completely agree with this assessment.
                Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
                So, I do not agree with you that they have a booking comparable to the "Europeans".

                A slight difference - the Americans have an inclined internal armor belt, you can argue with equivalents and other laughing
                Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
                And here, in principle, the dispute is meaningless - would "Bismarck" have "Iowa" in the Danish Strait one on one or not.

                And no one talks about it. The point is that for some reason you really want to count American battleships in battlecruisers smile Yes, the Americans do not have perfect armor protection (by the way, this is one of my questions for American ships), not the best among contracted peers, and the inner belt is a controversial thing, but it's still battleships.
                1. 0
                  19 January 2019 20: 24
                  Well, if you are guided by the definition of what a battle cruiser is, "a class of artillery ships with weapons close to the battleship, but with a higher speed with lighter armor ...
                  Further progress in the field of power plants led to the merger of battlecruisers and battleships into one class of high-speed battleships. ”Based on the definition, I believe that the Iowas and their predecessors, S. Caroline, are battlecruisers.
                  But this is my opinion ...
            2. -1
              19 January 2019 21: 57
              Quote: arturpraetor
              Or do you consider only Yamato as a full-fledged battleship?

              No, what are you. If you run hard into terms - Yamato LKR, like Bismarck.

              LK is KD5 and Scharnhorst. And everything seems.

              LC, these two can be considered for the same reason - it is striking. But this is not a fig plus.
            3. 0
              20 January 2019 06: 37
              If Montana is a battleship, then Iowa is its corresponding battlecruiser, no?
            4. 0
              20 January 2019 06: 37
              If Montana is a battleship, then Iowa is its corresponding battlecruiser, no?
              1. 0
                20 January 2019 07: 04
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev

                If Montana is a battleship, then Iowa is its corresponding battlecruiser, no?

                Hmm, it is.
          2. 0
            20 January 2019 05: 47
            Yet American commanders easily shoved their battleships into any skirmishes and battles. And the lights worked there as they should. Not like some. Nearby shells fell - I had to run away. otherwise they will. Massachusetts turned around and shipped Jean Bara until it silenced him. And I got hit more than once.
    2. +2
      19 January 2019 16: 29
      Quote: arturpraetor
      It is customary for us to idealize American battleships, extolling their weapons, and "all or nothing", and many of their other features

      Idealize chests?
      If Iowa amateurs sometimes come across, then for some reason I have never met the supporters of the American "standard".
      1. +2
        19 January 2019 16: 33
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        If Iowa amateurs sometimes come across, then for some reason I have never met the supporters of the American "standard".

        Well, at one time I had enough acquaintances who considered American dreadnoughts to be the best, which at that time cut through the seas and oceans. True, these were mainly people from model circles, and there the attitude towards the materiel is often quite superficial, yes, former modeling colleagues will forgive me request
        1. +3
          19 January 2019 16: 39
          Quote: arturpraetor
          the best that at that time cut through the seas and oceans. True, these were mainly people from model circles

          Bought on the Shukhov mast, how to give drink lol
      2. 0
        19 January 2019 17: 29
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        If Iowa amateurs sometimes come across, then for some reason I have never met the supporters of the American "standard".

        One argued with me here, somewhere in the topic about battlecruisers, and before that I came across
  9. 0
    19 January 2019 13: 50
    +++ SW. Andrei, tower children have always interested me in their compactness and weight.
    But in the "one-armed" system, such performance is achieved only with volley fire.

    For me, this is not a disadvantage of a generally uni-circuit scheme, but a concrete execution with a fix. charging angle. After all, recoil devices are individual. Or not? When fired from a single barrel, are all rolled back?
    At towers with swaying tambourines and bend. carriage guides (charging at any BH angle) and in one cradle, it is possible that while one barrel shoots, the rest are charged.
    In this regard, a bit of humor. Indicate the error of the authors of the famous animation))

    Alas, the gif on the site does not work, but since you undoubtedly have it, you can look at yourself and answer here))
    1. +1
      19 January 2019 13: 59
      Quote: anzar
      After all, recoil devices are individual. Or not? When fired from a single barrel, are all rolled back?

      I have heard "authoritative" statements that with a one-arm scheme, all the guns roll back together, but this is a consequence of a misunderstanding of the AU design and violent irrepressible imagination laughing With a common cradle, the guns are rolled away separately, but they are not rigidly combined with each other in a common box, technically this scheme will be more complicated and heavier than with a separate rollback.
      Quote: anzar
      At towers with swaying tambourines and bend. carriage guides (charging at any BH angle) and in one cradle, it is possible that while one barrel shoots, the rest are charged.

      Strictly speaking, this somewhat reduces, but does not completely remove the problem of loading guns with a single cradle - while a projectile with a charge is driven into one gun, it is highly desirable not to change the elevation angle of another gun, since I do not remember that the loading system at any guidance angles could work "on the move". However, if she could, then yes, the problem is removed entirely.
      1. 0
        19 January 2019 14: 25
        I have heard "authoritative" statements that with a one-arm scheme all the guns roll back together

        No, colleague, I agree with you that they were used separately. And there are common only I have)))) in some AI upgrades of old 2 towers. This is because of my "irrepressible imagination"))) laughing
        .
        .. so that the loading system can work "in motion" at any guidance angles

        Do not understand what movement? According to the angle VN? Why change it?
        1. +1
          19 January 2019 14: 42
          Quote: anzar
          Do not understand what movement? According to the angle VN? Why change it?

          Let's say you have a two-gun mount. You load the left gun, right at this time just should shoot. But the command is given - to increase the elevation angle, say, by 1 degree. We need to change the elevation angle of the entire cradle, along with both guns - but the left one is being charged at this time. Will it be able to continue charging "in motion" when the elevation angle of the entire cradle changes, or will it have to wait for the gun to load, and only then change this angle? I don’t know such technical details, but something tells me that it’s not so simple.
  10. +2
    19 January 2019 14: 15
    By the way, it would be interesting to compare the designs and capabilities of domestic three-gun turrets with American ones ...
    1. 0
      20 January 2019 12: 53
      So with what to compare that? Not a single tower for Izmail was made. At the Metal Plant, one prototype was assembled without armor and electrical equipment. Also, the coastal two-gun 356-mm towers in regular places on batteries were not completed.
      Of course, you can rely on the data and design of the 305-mm towers of Sevastopol. because Izmail towers were designed on their basis. Accordingly, this is a separate installation of each gun in its compartment, the armored partitions between the guns and its own loading system for each gun. But all these are purely theoretical indicators.
      Thanks for the article, I look forward to continuing the description and, as a result, comparing the ships and determining the winner.
      1. 0
        20 January 2019 16: 56
        Not a single tower for Izmail was made - there is a version that I CANNOT be, but for now I’ll be silent about this
        1. +2
          20 January 2019 19: 19
          In the work there were towers for 2 ships, readiness at the end of 1917 20%. There were many problems: first of all, overloading factories with a large number of orders of both sea and coastal towers (there were 356 of them in the 8 mm caliber only).
          Supplies of materials and fulfillment of orders by foreign suppliers. So, in 1914 balls of German supply were rejected, on which the rotating parts of the towers rode. There were problems with ordering new ones.
          But, the towers were in work, Vinogradov in the book "The Last Giants of the Russian Imperial Fleet" has a photo of their tower shop LMZ with the assembled tower parts: a rotating part and a drum.
  11. +1
    19 January 2019 16: 50
    Not bad!
    "that the dispersion of shells in the salvoes of British battleships is much less than that of American ones -"
    Do you have tsifiri on the dispersion of shells among the British and Americans?
    1. +1
      20 January 2019 21: 31
      NAVAL WEAPONS OF WORLD WAR ONE. N. Friedman

      When the ships of the US 6th Battle Squadron reached Scapa Flow, they showed about twice the dispersion of their British counterparts. Considerable effort was devoted to bringing the US ships into line with the British, and BuOrd looked at a variety of reasons for the excess. Possibilities included mutual interference between guns, as the US Navy (but not the Royal Navy) fired whole broadsides instead of salvoes (one gun per turret). Once various improvements had been made, dispersion at 10,000–15,000yds seemed acceptable. However, it seemed that future battles would be fought at greater ranges (Dahlgren Proving Ground was bought to allow shooting at the new battle ranges). The situation at such ranges was bad. Data available in the spring of 1920:
      Nevada 301 17,600
      Oklahoma 370 20,000
      Pennsylvania 128 19,000
      Mississippi 650 21,000
      Mississippi 80 24,000 Excellent
      Mississippi 250 28,000
      New Mexico 280 18,000
      At this time it was reported that British dispersion at 20,000yds was about 115yds. A May 1922 memo for the Chief of BuOrd about ways of reducing gun dispersion noted that in the past US guns had always been designed for maximum velocity. Yet it seemed that accepting lower muzzle velocity and much lower muzzle pressure (by having powder completely consumed well short of the muzzle, as in the Royal Navy) would give a shell a much smoother flight ...

      BuOrd also commented (in 1920) on whether the US Navy would be wise to adopt British practice and mount eight rather than twelve guns in battleships. Under ideal conditions, with perfectly-functioning instruments and plotting, BuOrd agreed that eight guns would perform slightly better, but in reality at long range fire would be opened at a calculated range which would probably be incorrect ... the Bureau believed the Arizona to be more effective than the Warspite under normal conditions of battle. '

      There are figures, but there are many questions about how they are received. There simply cannot be such a difference in accuracy.
      1. 0
        21 January 2019 14: 03
        Thanks for the info! the data is really conflicting ...
        "the Bureau believes the Arizona to be more effective than the Warspite under normal conditions of battle" feel
        1. +1
          21 January 2019 14: 45
          I am this passage about "the Bureau believe ... "understood like this:
          "The mind does not understand the standards,
          Yard common not to measure
          They have a special to become,
          The standards just need believe."
          1. +1
            22 January 2019 11: 57
            It's funny, although as an engineer I do not share your banter on standards, it’s a necessary and very useful thing ... bully
            I understood differently - our guns are the most furry in the world ... request
            1. 0
              22 January 2019 12: 19
              I significantly reduced the text in its entirety (now I am writing it again from memory), there seemed to be such logic, we will fry all 12 barrels at a frantic pace and the density of fire will lead to a good percentage of hits. There were no answers to the questions, but the amers on Jutland would have had a frantic rate of fire or how the heating affects the accuracy, there definitely weren’t)

              Soon Andrey from Chelyabinsk will delight us with new posts in this series - there will be a cool opportunity to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of each drinks

              In my opinion, none of the compared ones deserves any banter or excessive admiration. I was just very pleased with the last phrase of the amers' long thoughts "the Bureau believes ..."

              hi
  12. +2
    20 January 2019 09: 29
    I am pleased to read your articles. Thank you very much! Learned a lot for yourself!
  13. 0
    20 January 2019 16: 38
    As always, interesting material.