In Russia, a decision was made on materials for the wing MC-21

The topic of problems in the Russian aircraft industry today is being actively discussed after the publication that production associations do not receive the necessary composite materials from the USA and Japan to create the MS-21 wing. The topic was continued in the form of a statement by the head of the United Aircraft Building Corporation Yuri Slusar.

The head of the KLA noted that a decision had already been made regarding the future parameters of the wing of a medium-haul Russian passenger aircraft. The wing will be created from domestic composite materials.

Earlier it was reported that the KLA could abandon composites and create a metal wing for MC-21. However, this would lead to an inevitable change in the configuration of virtually the entire fuselage.

Slyusar noted that work on the creation of domestic analogues of Japanese and American composite materials has been conducted since 2014. Leading industry experts from Rosatom, VIAM, scientists from Moscow State University, and specialists from a number of private companies are involved in this work.

Yury Slyusar quotes the press service UAC:

These solutions are in the process of transition to serial production, the relevant samples are being tested, their introduction into the MC-21 program will be implemented step by step after the completion of the main certification tests as part of the overall import substitution program.

At the same time, Slyusar added that the KLA plans to appeal against the decision of the American and Japanese suppliers to refuse to fulfill their contractual obligations.

Comments

[Magic archer]

I just watched the plot about it. The metal wing is a weighting of the structure! And rollback to the past .... Here you have the creation of an airplane in collaboration with someone. But we also do spare parts for the Dreamliner, but I didn’t hear something due to sanctions, we stopped supplying them ...

[Pivot]

Yes, they will find titanium, but so far we have nowhere to take carbon.

[tap]

We must ask Chubais

[Lopatov]

Quote: zapfen

We must ask Chubais

http://www.atomic-energy.ru/news/2018/06/07/86488
Already at Rosatom.

[Atilla]

They flew by. But where is Putin's import substitution? Ah, how bad it turned out.

[Lopatov]

Quote: Atilla

But where is Putin's import substitution?

In the article by reference

Quote: Atilla

Ay how bad it turned out

I agree. Be careful next time.

[Piramidon]

Quote: Atilla

Ah, how bad it turned out.

You with your post are really bad. It seems like a cheap stuffing.

[Sergio]

Grandfather Aya yayay shake your beard.

[Lighten]

M I update the embassy official. It. Release is outdated

[zloybond]

Firstly, our Nano-genius Chubaty had to create a new composite 5 times already. And secondly ... are our military aircraft also being built from imported composites ???? It turns out that our planes will stop building at any moment, just give a reason for the mattress?

[Tarhan]

It turns out our planes at any time will stop building

What happened to the Su-57.

[den3080]

About Rusnano ...
I once saw an interview with Chubais on what the structure he leads is engaged in.
He formulated quite clearly. I will not quote, but I will convey the meaning.
“We invest in promising projects. And then, when they enter the launch phase (plant, production), we sell them to interested investors ... "
So asking Chubais to demonstrate some “nanobolt” or supercomposite is a waste of time.
Red Chub laid straws while arranging for his beloved this quite satisfying, warm and cozy sinecure.
Ponder and understand.

[groom]

Do not mention the devil in the sou.

[NEXUS]

Quote: Pivot

while we have nowhere to take carbon.

Che, seriously nowhere?

The opening ceremony of the Alabuga-Fiber plant for the production of carbon fiber was held in the special economic zone Alabuga. The total project cost is 4,2 billion rubles. The plant plans to create up to 250 jobs. The company became 16 resident, which opened in the territory of the SEZ "Alabuga".

The construction of the plant began in the 2012 year, the technical launch was carried out in the 2014 year. This is one of the most modern and high-tech enterprises in Russia, which will produce modern industrial material. Carbon fiber (carbon) is used in the space, aircraft construction industries, in the construction of roads and bridges.

Alabuga-Fiber is a joint project of the Composite holding and Rosatom. The capacity of the enterprise is at least 1,7 thousand tons annually, with a potential of up to 2 thousand tons. This fully covers the needs of the Russian market, whose capacity is currently 500 tons.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: NEXUS

The construction of the plant began in the 2012 year, the technical launch was carried out in the 2014 year. This is one of the most modern and high-tech enterprises in Russia, which will produce modern industrial material. Carbon fiber (carbon) is used in the space, aircraft construction industries, in the construction of roads and bridges.

The launch of the plant took place in 2014. Now is the year 2019. Those. The plant has been operating for 4 years, annually produces 1,7 thousand tons. During operation, it produced 6,8 thousand tons. The capacity of the Russian market is 500 tons per year. For 4 years, 2,0 thousand tons.
Where is 4,8 thousand tons? And why do we continue to buy carbon abroad?
Fooling our brother, oh fooling!

[NEXUS]

Quote: Krasnoyarsk

And why do we continue to buy carbon abroad?

Apparently because they had already signed purchase contracts from Western manufacturers, BEFORE the plant was started up.
It can be assumed that the quality of our carbon fiber is worse ... as a version.
Although it is not clear to me from which hangover to buy imported, if we have been manufacturing our own for 5 years.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: NEXUS

And why do we continue to buy carbon abroad?

Apparently because they had already signed purchase contracts from Western manufacturers, BEFORE the plant was started up.

But both the Americans and the Japas also signed these contracts. Or, they can be terminated, but we can not?

Quote: NEXUS

It can be assumed that the quality of our carbon fiber is worse ... as a version.

Unfortunately this is not a version.
And your hurray-patriotic post from "yesterday, 19:06" is meaningless.
Just don't think I'm gloating. Not at all.
I, like you, "It is insulting for the state." But do not wishful thinking. This position is lulling.

[Pivot]

I want to disappoint you, the carbon wing is not made from the same carbon from which fishing rods are sintered in China, you need slightly different components and the fiber itself is not simple and most importantly the impregnation is completely different, if the carbon fiber was learned to get the right thickness, then glue and preserving varnish is a big problem, we generally have a failure in synthetic materials. I remember PTZ sculpted metal fenders and hoods for a long time, I somehow met with the chief designer of the year 2008 and we talked about this ugliness, he told me that there are no manufacturers in Russia ready to supply us with hoods and wings made of ABS plastic, and as a result, they bought this line for the plant and began to produce it themselves, and here we are talking about carbon fiber.

[mac789]

The problem with "glue" and "varnish" is easily solved with the help of some kind of mother ... At least for kilometers ... ... Damn, I can't upload a photo from my phone

[prosto_rgb]

Quote: mac789

The problem with "glue" and "varnish" is easily solved with the help of some mother ..

Are being decided
just do not pass on the quality parameters presented in the aircraft industry

[mac789]

It’s being decided. In the widest range of requirements. And as I said - at least linear kilometers. With a minimum amount of marriage and at a sane price.

[AnderS]

It’s being decided. In the widest range of requirements.

Yeah. I agree. Only such a tiny condition is necessary. Which consists in the fact that if the person in charge / authorized to solve this problem, in case of not solving this problem, will go to the felling for 10 years. But this is not about today's Russia and not about its "effective" managers

[mac789]

Conditions ... Everything has been decided for a long time. The site does not allow uploading photos from the phone. Made on the basis of decisions forty years ago. If not older ...

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: mac789

It’s being decided. In the widest range of requirements. And as I said - at least linear kilometers. With a minimum amount of marriage and at a sane price.

Are you saying that our "effective managers" did not specifically take our completely conditioned carbon, but took from the Americans and the Japanese? Did I understand correctly?

[mac789]

I want to say that our carbon can be made cheaper and higher quality than now.

[Grigory_78]

And what do you think, managed to ditch almost the entire domestic industry? It is easier to buy overseas, albeit at exorbitant prices, than to work with a domestic manufacturer. Such managers are still above the roof.

[Vadim237]

How where - exported, orders for the year ahead.

[lopvlad]

Quote: Pivot

Yes, they will find titanium

Of course they will find it, but at a more expensive price, similar to how they found gas in the Ukraine. But only titanium, unlike carbon "from ... on and sticks," cannot be created.

And we already have "carbon"

are at the stage of transition to mass production, relevant samples are being tested

so everything goes according to plan.

[Pivot]

Yes, even at a more expensive one, but the planes will not stop producing this, and as a result, we will pay this expensive price when flying these planes from one Russian city to another, and not on our MS or YAKs, or whatever they call them,

[lopvlad]

Quote: Pivot

and in the end, we will pay this expensive price when flying these planes from one Russian city to another

Do you naively think that the West would not even sell Ukraine carbon to us so that we mass-produce the MC-21 and replace them with American Boeings and compete with them also on the world market?

[Pivot]

And what does Ukraine have to do with it?

[lopvlad]

Quote: Pivot

And what does Ukraine have to do with it?

despite the fact that restrictions on the supply of "carbon" are served under the guise of sanctions for Russia's actions in Ukraine.

[Pivot]

Well, this probably will not be believed in kindergarten.

[lopvlad]

Quote: Pivot

and they won’t believe in kindergarten.

liberals in Russia pretend they believe.

[Pivot]

Well, you understand what to pretend and believe completely different things. Fortunately, our population is not so stupid as to react to such stupid things. And the liberals will die in torment and burn in hell for treason.

[Vlad.by]

They may even find titanium, but they can’t process it as AVISMA. Rather, they know how, but very expensive ...
So here "not everything is so simple." In addition, their airliners still fly freely along Russian corridors to China and Japan ...
There is also something to think about, but apparently there are other levers, and you can still hold on to these - let them bring money for now.

[Alf]

Quote: Vlad.by

but apparently there are other levers,

What kind ?

[t-4]

And bring Redhead here!
Anatoly Borisych!
Let him tell us why the MS-21 is being assembled from enemy materials, what Rosnano is doing and where the money is.

[the most important]

Quote: t-4

m Rusnano is engaged and where money is gone.

Have you ever heard anything about the development of Rusnano ??? And about the success of Skolkovo ??? So I personally only heard about the theft and stupidity of the leadership of these projects. We can draw a simple conclusion that if there are no developments, then there was no task to develop them. Just stupidly stealing .... that's the whole conclusion.
And composites need their own. and by example, show China what could happen when designing a new joint aircraft to lay only its materials in it. Although .. this is so clear to everyone ... but decisions are made by completely different people ...

[Lopatov]

Quote: the most important

So I personally only heard about the theft and stupidity of the leadership of these projects.

From Navalny? It was he who was trying to expose Rusnano. Unsuccessfully.

[the most important]

Quote: Spade

From Navalny?

And besides Navalny, are you still listening to something? Watch the well-known video from the New Year's corporate event. What other disclosures are needed? And the report of the auditor of the Audit Chamber on the verification of Rusnano is also very interesting. But many people know how to ulce.

[Lopatov]

Quote: the most important

And the report of the auditor of the Audit Chamber on the verification of Rusnano is also very interesting.

Well, and what is in this report? Well, except for the deepest misunderstanding of why such companies are being created. 8)))

[the most important]

httpshttps: //youtu.be/xcAmZwRJIQM: //youtu.be/xcAmZwRJIQM

[Grigory_78]

Why are these kinds of companies being created - do you mean the utilization of budget money?

[GibSoN]

From Navalny?

But does Navalny personally keep you awake? For you personally, what is the difference from whom? Do you really need the essence or the checkers?

[Lopatov]

Quote: GibSoN

Do you really need the essence or the checkers?

Street question !!!!!
Here people work, often saving lives, as in the situation with the development of heart valves. And you, damn it, with your associates and Navalny are ready to trample their work in shit just because your company Chubais does not like it.

Do you really need the essence? Or "what's the difference"?

You know what that reminds me of? I harass Russia with Western media. Because the local elites do not like Putin. When the facts and essence do not really matter ...

[VIT101]

Quote: the most important

Have you ever heard anything about the development of Rusnano ??? And about the success of Skolkovo ??? So I personally only heard about the theft and stupidity of the leadership of these projects. We can draw a simple conclusion that if there are no developments, then there was no task to develop them. Just stupidly stealing .... that's the whole conclusion.

Yes, not enough of our regulatory bodies. Just something: the prosecutor's office, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the FSB, the TFR. Now another ONF. It would be necessary to create a couple more.

[Fevralsk. Morev]

Chubais netrozh !!!! He is from the president’s team, but he doesn’t scatter personnel

[Irokez]

Quote: Magic Archer

But we also do spare parts for the Dreamliner, but I didn’t hear something because of the sanctions, we stopped supplying them.

As long as the dollar is strong, it will continue.
Here, after all, everything in the complex works both economics and politics, and social sphere, as well as general development with authority in the world. Pull one direction and the other will weaken, and so on, such as closing one hole in the body and then another appears and so on until it is completely exhausted.
It is necessary to beat the enemy with his own methods of control and add his own asymmetric ones for which he does not have asymmetric or standard protection.
Of course, world cooperation cannot be completely abandoned, but since we can do avionics for the military, engines, corps, and so on from our own, then we must continue to pull ours and master someone else's, for knowing how they treat us (the Russians, the Orthodox, and the most rebellious people) will always spread rot and destroy on all fronts, and this must always be taken into account as the prime factor.
This is another lesson to all of our state. and nat. programs (and probably also necessary) because you can’t live like that anymore, and who will continue to be tried with confiscation (the article must be entered into the Criminal Code).
To begin with, make these planes for yourself and make a discount on fuel because you have your own fuel and you can level up competition in domestic transportation in the country with competing liners, and then, by agreement with other countries, agree not on international ones (you need to certify them), but on contractual flights and routes between the respective countries parties to the agreement. Here, irrespective of foreign sanctions, one can even fly to Iran, North Korea, or even fly through all neutral territories without any problems.
Something like that.

[Alf]

Quote: Irokez

It is necessary to beat the enemy in his own ways

There are no fighters, there are "partners".

[Grigory_78]

A sparring partner is also a partner. But the goods can be lost.

[Hole puncher]

Quote: Magic Archer

The metal wing is a weighting of the structure! And a rollback to the past ...

Like the use of domestic carbon fiber.

[NEXUS]

Quote: Magic Archer

So much for creating an airplane in collaboration with someone.

But the effect of sanctions worked. We cut supplies, and we began to move in order to produce what we purchased ourselves. In other words, they start to produce from us what was previously purchased in the West, only after the weighty slap in the mouth of suppliers. And in this context, I consider this ban and the refusal to supply Japan and the USA to be a very positive moment, which will accelerate our production of these materials.

[Aleks2048]

And in this context, I think this ban and the refusal to supply Japan and the USA are a very positive thing,

Sorry, but they chose a bad moment. It's about money! Which, oddly enough, we need.
But I agree with you regarding what you had to think first with your head, and not with your fifth point! And in terms of giving acceleration, I also agree.
Why are we always missing a kick?

[soul]

Quote: Alex2048

And in this context, I think this ban and the refusal to supply Japan and the USA are a very positive thing,

Sorry, but they chose a bad moment.

And such a moment always comes unsuccessfully. Won't they wait until we get ready?

[Irokez]

Quote: Alex2048

Sorry, but they chose a bad moment.

Just successful for ourselves and not for us. Sanctions are a cold dish.

[Vlad.by]

Cold serve beer and ... revenge, that is, a counter station.
But they have not cooled yet.

[Stirbjorn]

Quote: NEXUS

And in this context, I think this ban and the refusal to supply Japan and the USA are a very positive moment that will accelerate our production of these materials.

Yeah, only the delivery dates for the aircraft that have already been contracted will go far to the right. And here new models of Boeing and Airbases are already entering the market. Civilian airlines, this is not an aeronautical videoconferencing, will not wait until the composites are replaced by those (theirs), which are no worse than Japanese

[NEXUS]

Quote: Stirbjorn

Yeah, only the delivery dates for the aircraft that have already been contracted will go far to the right.

I don’t think ... just the Kazan composites plant will receive an additional contract ... if it is moved to the right and then not for long.

Quote: Stirbjorn

And here the new Boeing and Airbus models are already entering the market.

To do this, there is a state policy, namely the law of using domestic medium-haul aircraft inside the country. So the Loafs and the Watermelons will be re-stamped.

[Alf]

Quote: NEXUS

namely, the law of using domestic medium-haul airborne flights within the country.

Is there such a law? What a news ! Briefly, its main provisions are possible and how it is carried out, preferably with numbers.

[Alf]

Quote: Alf

Quote: NEXUS

namely, the law of using domestic medium-haul airborne flights within the country.

Is there such a law? What a news ! Briefly, its main provisions are possible and how it is carried out, preferably with numbers.

That's all your proof, only a minus and not a gram of proof ...

[NEXUS]

Quote: Alf

That's all your proof, only a minus and not a gram of proof ...

Dear, that you do not particularly bubble, I will say, I almost never put minuses. And in this case, I didn’t give you a minus.

[Alf]

Quote: NEXUS

And in this case, I didn’t put you a minus.

For my part, I also rarely minus, if only some mess has too much to start licking. And, as a rule, such true arguments are not sensible.

[2329 Carpenter]

Alf! I put it to you minus. Twice.

[NEXUS]

Quote: Alf

Is there such a law? What a news ! Briefly, its main provisions are possible and how it is carried out, preferably with numbers.

I am talking about the regulation of rules that oblige our airlines to use ONLY domestic aircraft, for starters, on medium-haul flights. It is these rules that will protect our manufacturers of such aircraft from the lobby in the Russian Federation of watermelons and loaves.

In an attempt to stimulate demand for the products of Russian aircraft manufacturers, the Ministry of Transport decided to change the conditions for obtaining an operator’s certificate by amending the Federal Aviation Rules (FAP-246), the agency reports. A notice of this is posted on the portal of draft regulatory legal acts.

Now, in order to obtain an operator’s certificate for charter flights, a carrier must have from three to seven aircraft in the fleet, and for regular flights - from eight in number of 55 passenger seats or more, the representative of the Federal Air Transport Agency explained. And the Ministry of Transport suggests introducing the mandatory presence in the carrier’s fleet of at least three Russian-made aircraft, and not older than five years. It is planned that the changes will come into force in November 2017 of the year after their approval by the State Duma.

[Alf]

Quote: NEXUS

decided to change

Decided to change or Changed? The difference is significant.

Quote: NEXUS

It is planned that the changes will enter into force in November 2017 after their approval by the State Duma.

Approved the thought? Have you entered? What changes have occurred over the year? How much has the number of purchased Boeings and Watermelons changed? Wing Super-Ek. How slow is the production of aircraft? But our businessmen will not wait; they will receive tales of a slugger to one place.

[NEXUS]

Quote: Alf

But our businessmen will not wait; they will receive tales of a slugger to one place.

They may be up to one place ... but when the rules for airlines in the procurement of new aircraft are tightened ... and they are tightened, then what will airlines do with loaves and watermelons, which by law will not "fly", in view of the fact that what is this imported technique?
The MS-21 project is a priority and is supervised at the highest level. And I do not think that the input to the series will be postponed for a long time. And precisely MS-21 is positioned as a replacement for long loaves and watermelons on medium-haul lines. So your attempts to tell that it’s just a business do not work here. The Kremlin clearly understands that if the MC is not put into production now, then our civilian aircraft industry will be covered with a copper basin. And taking into account the fact that our country is not a small country and the issue of the movement of citizens and goods is more urgent than anywhere else in the world, we need sovereignty in this matter, which we do not have now. And since we are now dependent on European and mattress companies in this matter, this is yet another lever of pressure on us and the adoption of our decisions.
Did I get my point across clearly?

[Alf]

Quote: NEXUS

but when toughened the rules for airlines in the procurement of new boards ..

When? In what millennium?

Quote: NEXUS

The Kremlin clearly understands that if the MC is not put into production now, then our civilian aircraft industry will be covered with a copper basin.

In the Kremlin? Do you understand? If they understood, they would not have ruined the GA so diligently.

Quote: NEXUS

supervised at the highest level.

We have a lot of things that are curated at the very top, but the results are not encouraging, and the curators only do that with a smart look explain why they once again crap one's pants and quietly transfer to another chair. And the supreme curator only shrugs his hands.

Quote: NEXUS

Did I get my point across clearly?

Quite. Wait. when it all comes. I hope you live to a fabulous far.
P.S. And you never answered my previous questions ...

[Alf]

Clearly, the messenger has come running.

[Grigory_78]

Do you like shortcuts to sculpt? A sign of a small mind or youthful maximalism. As for your questions, I will answer - they are simply meaningless. How can sales of the MS-21 be promoted to the domestic market if it has not yet completed testing? Orders for him now and so on for 5 years of production, there is nowhere to rush with lobbying. IL-114 is also not ready.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: NEXUS

We were cut back on supplies, and we began to move in order to produce what we purchased ourselves. In other words,we start to produce what was previously purchased in the West,only after weighty slap in the face of suppliers.

What is our interesting “carrot and stick” policy in the field of production ... I understand this: a slap in the face of foreign suppliers is a whip, and high managers' salaries from production are a carrot ... Maybe it's time for us to take a whip?

[Alf]

Quote: ROSS 42

Maybe it's time for us to take the whip?
Reply

There is no coachman.

[Vlad.by]

Well, it began ...
Eh ... Alpha would be "mare" under the tail, like burr.
That’s it, then, Alf?
As I understand it, "Alfa - Kucher" has already drawn up the reform program and the money for its financing is full of bins?
Well, the anti-Putin Alfasamese, voice your curious arguments, convince the public that everything is wrong.
Or will there again be a mantra, sho composites (trams, pensions, medicine, education, development of production ... what else is there?) Had to be practiced even under the pea king? And the Alfasamians must be given the power to steer the country!
And this evil Putin has stolen the idea of ​​brilliant Alpha (male?) And stumbled into his little egg! Like prosralipolymers ... No?

[Alf]

Quote: Vlad.by

Well, the anti-Putin Alfasamese,

I do not argue with females.

[greenegro]

But again, someone will sing about mutually beneficial international cooperation ...

[Fevralsk. Morev]

It's called: a roasted cock pecked in one place

[Nik2013]

WTO in action

[Vadim237]

WTO - this is the whole world.

[Aleks2048]

WTO is not the whole world. And the WTO has seriously discredited itself against the background of sanctions.

[Vadim237]

"The WTO is not the whole world" - Oh well, green countries are members of the WTO

[Zaurbek]

There is not a problem in the wing, but in the tail ... The "black" wing is woven from carbon thread. Many people produce and sell it.

[Alf]

Quote: Zaurbek

The "black" wing is woven from carbon fiber. Many people produce and sell it.

For example, China. Just today I got a note that says that there is a Chinese thread, only it is twice as heavy.

[ain1959]

The fact is that the Russian company Aerocomposite (producing unique wings) uses absolutely innovative developments in aviation and arouses burning interest among Western corporations and developers. The use of the Russian “black wing” improves the characteristics of the aircraft so significantly that a queue has been drawn from those who wish.

[Hole puncher]

Quote: ain1959

The fact is that the Russian company Aerocomposite (producing unique wings) uses absolutely innovative developments in aviation and arouses burning interest among Western corporations and developers.

Here you are a humorist, these "developments", as you put it, are from Austria, and anyone expressing "burning interest" can acquire them, as Russia did in its time.

[Vlad.by]

Well, yes, yes ... Just like aramid threads and fabrics, Russia has nothing to do. And in general, nothing of type was born in Russia, everything American, German, Austrian, well, at worst - Khokhlyatsky, but not Russian ...
If they’re so smart, why wouldn’t they start processing titanium in a series like in AVISM they put Boeings with Airbasses, they won’t sink to the bottom of the Arctic Ocean, they won’t do atomic icebreakers? Is that all of them, no?

[Alf]

Quote: Magic Archer

but I didn’t hear something because of the sanctions we stopped supplying them ...

So where is the money of Russia stored ...

[Demon_is_ada]

Vasily, I share your indignation, but you are a little behind reality ... just now the ZRVs were placed in RMB, Japanese tugriks and the euro ... although all these currencies depend on the dollar, but still it’s at least something, nothing
Well, about Putin ... nirazu is not a mess (in the sense of his foreign policy - I support, internal - some unprintable definitions ) Personally, do you have any decent candidate to take in mind? I have it me but I think you don’t support me, right? Well, all right, it's all the lyrics ... let's get down to business - what exactly do you propose and most importantly how? Well, let's shoot always ready as a pioneer, and then what? If there is no agreement and common values ​​in society, then what will we build ??? Now there are no problems with nanochubays and other limes, and then again run around and catch other alternatively gifted ones, and then others ??? Do you even generalize to describe what you personally would like to see in the future, you will see others pull up and discuss it will be

[Alf]

Quote: Demon_is_ada

I have, it's me, but I think you will not support me, right?

Why not support? If you start to raise the state, relying on the principle of social justice, I will very much support it.

Quote: Demon_is_ada

If there is no agreement and common values ​​in society, then what will we build ???

So the first point of amending the Constitution is the introduction of STATE ideology of social justice into it.

Quote: Demon_is_ada

and then run again and catch other alternatively gifted, and then others ???

And what, there are no normal statesmen in Russia?

Quote: Dem on_is_ada

Do you even generalize to describe what you personally would like to see in the future, you will see others pull up and discuss it will be

I have already voiced the first paragraph on the Constitution.
The second is the removal of their Constitution of the provision on the primacy of world law over Russian.
The third is the immediate nationalization of the Central Bank and the Security Council.
The fourth is the introduction of a three-ruble system. The first ruble is cash, for trade and the public. The second is non-cash, for internal payments in industry and government agencies. The most severe control over the prohibition of cashing the first two categories of funds. And the third ruble is foreign currency, secured by gold for foreign settlements. The ban on the circulation of foreign currency in the country.
Fifth-immediate transition to the gold security of the ruble.
Sixth-nationalization of all strategic industries and national economy.
Seventh revision of privatization results.
The introduction of the state monopoly on the trade in vodka, bread and basic necessities.
To provide the population with the necessary means for normal life, trade can be left in private hands, ensuring control over it.
Maintaining GOSTs on products.
Introduction of the concept of "core nation" for the Russian-speaking population.
And much more is in the stash, that it is too early to shine.

[Vlad.by]

Here it is! take away and share!
Well, good luck.
Again a rake ... Although not, pitchfork!

[Alf]

Quote: Vlad.by

Here it is! take away and share!

Then we leave everything as it is and continue to whine, as we have.

[Grigory_78]

Your thoughts are good for the most part. But what about nationalization on such a scale and revising the results of privatization - they will treat us like the USSR in the 1920s. We can trade with the outside world only for gold or for grain, as in the early 1930s. By the way, for the same agriculture, we are not really self-sufficient yet. Many feeds are imported; the quality of turkey chicks is even funny to compare. Most of the metal production is now exported - about 50%. We also sell oil, gas. Remove everything - and where to get the money, Zin? Mass unemployment is provided. Let’s say the standard of living of the population - it will fall somewhat. Today's whiners will try to raise you in the forks, do not hesitate. By the way, you have to remember what the fight against sabotage is, if you have enough time and you will not be thrown off earlier.
Of course you have far gone from Polygraph Polygraphych, but nevertheless, the calculation of the consequences is clearly not yours. Much of what you voiced is simply unreasonable to do until import substitution is close to completion.

[Demon_is_ada]

Yeah, to select "honestly acquired by back-breaking labor" , and I don’t really care about a good house, housekeeping, a couple of Mercedes ... but here’s a nickel on an area of ​​several square kilometers of sophisticated equipment, a priori it’s impossible to build a mortal Especially the humanities ... well, yes, I heard he earned money on unloading the wagons, honestly, I bow to my mother yeah ... there are probably also witnesses ... like "Jehovah's Witnesses" ... personally, they probably kept candles

[Demon_is_ada]

I fully support I would especially single out the ideology, the mental health of the nation ... I’ll have to write an article, but I think the locals will hardly approve ... In truth, I'm a fanatic , religious, I cannot be bought and I do not violate some dogmas ... The communist idea is very close and understandable, although I am an adherent of the theory of the "kingdom of heaven", which also implies the social type of society, the vertical of power and the most worthy and intelligent leaders. .. but in the real kingdom there is an unbreakable plus - there hierarchs are immortal, which we do not have Although there are problems in order to solve them ...

[StudentVK]

We just get the currency for this, although we would really like to throw off all this overseas yoke. And then it would be cool if we would instead of rd180 show amers a middle finger, and so on.

[Alf]

Quote: StudentVK

We just get the currency for it,

For our coal, oil, gas, non-renewable, by the way, we get unsecured candy wrappers, the price of which is constantly growing.

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

Because if we stop supplying them, then we will have to close the VSMPO-AVISMA enterprise in Russia, and drive people out into the street.

Do you want that?

And when Western companies stop supplying us with something, this does not affect them much, since they have a huge sales market for their products around the world.

[StudentVK]

This is just a word to our lzheberalam about the availability of bases. If there was our base in Germany, then could it be so impudently scolding us ??? Or could they impose such Jesuit sanctions on us?

[Alf]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

Because if we stop supplying them, then we will have to close the VSMPO-AVISMA enterprise in Russia, and drive people out into the street.

Stop repeating the stories of our WTO liberals. And where did these products go before the year 91? And then all these plants shuffled in two shifts.

And when Western companies stop supplying us with something, this does not affect them much, since they have a huge sales market for their products around the world.

So why are they so eager for Russia?

[Fevralsk. Morev]

Now even the hard workers from Central Asia are not very eager for us. Not like Western companies.

[Grigory_78]

Quote: Alf

So why are they so eager for Russia?

Capitalism is based on the constant expansion of markets. This is how we at one time could not refuse to provide fraternal assistance to the peoples struggling with capitalism.

[Aviator_]

Titanium is supplied by a private office, which they are afraid to nationalize. Business, what does patriotism have to do with it?

[2329 Carpenter]

I wonder who is afraid of something?

[Grigory_78]

I am personally definitely afraid. A sort of chief trampoline specialist will be at the head - and the khan of the enterprise. It will not go bankrupt - the state will not allow it, but quality and efficiency can certainly be forgotten. It is enough to reorganize the production so that all the specialists can run away. Instead of specialists, they will instruct d'effective managers - and an amba. Usually a hands-on leader is enough for a successful enterprise. Production is being crushed imperceptibly, but very quickly. It is usually extremely difficult to return the specialists back.

[Nizhlogger]

Private companies also refused to supply carbon fiber. They were told they did.

[210ox]

Well, here is the answer to today's article

[KVU-NSVD]

The answer is the answer .. Dmitry. and it only reminds me of rituals on topics? - "find and punish", "catch up and overtake", "work and achieve", and so on. It reminds me so ... especially when the rooster has already pecked at the fifth point.

[Andrey Chistyakov]

How can we "help partners" .... No words. And after that something else is demanded from us.

[silberwolf88]

This story has once again shown ... that the entire bazaar for the international division of labor and cooperation is a harmful fiction ... key technologies (if there is no desire to go under the United States and take a sip) you need to have your ...
The story with the blocking of the contract on the superjet is about the same ...

[kjhg]

Quote: silberwolf88

This story once again showed ... that the entire bazaar for the international division of labor and cooperation is a harmful fiction

Quote: silberwolf88

The story with the blocking of the contract on the superjet is about the same ...

I disagree. This story once again showed that suckers can be successfully bred successfully and today, as before, Indians were bred for different shiny toys like mirrors. The only problem is that we are in the place of the Indians today.

[shahor]

Quote: silberwolf88

key technologies (if there is no desire to go under the US and have a sip), you must have your ...

The problem is that there are too many key technologies, and the technologies themselves are insanely complex and expensive. Today no country in the world can have the entire set of such technologies. This is the root of the development of the global economy and the free circulation of capital. Every more or less developed country strives to find its place in the technology market with its own unique product and by all means to preserve it. In place of a loser, an unscrupulous manufacturer, others will immediately come. Therefore, the cries of some "patriots" about the termination of deliveries of titanium products to Boeing or engines in the United States will lead to Boeing buying titanium from China or Japan (production volumes of titanium products there are about twice as high as in Russia), and engines will replace import. But that's not all. Globalization as a whole is an economy for a country participating in the international division of labor. Judge for yourself, using composites as an example. Can we create an analogue? Sure! You will need to develop and manufacture equipment for its production, develop your own technology, and set up production. As a result, in 5 years (I am an optimist), we may get a product of a similar quality, which by that time, quite possibly, will become outdated and will be replaced by a new, more technological one. In the end, billions of rubles from the state budget have been spent, a deliberately unprofitable production has been created - Irkut is not Boeing or Airbus, how many MC-21s it tweaks a year, how many wings will it cut? Do you think anyone abroad will rush to buy your composite? Not
I think, you will remember both titanium, and engines, and trampolines, and games with gas, to create a reputation as a reliable partner is difficult, it is easy to destroy it with a fool. And our factory, having completed the annual order of Irkut in a month, the rest of the time will rest. And how many more technologies do we need to master? How much budget billions to invest? How many losses will Kudrin write off? Copying today is a dead end. RUSNANO was created not to copy foreign products and technologies, but to develop its breakthrough products, with which it is not a shame to enter the market. Trading oil and gas is not a big mind.

[silberwolf88]

Of course there are many key ones ... but not so much as not to keep it at home ... for example, we understand that a normal BAIKAL processor does not pay off BUT the independence of Russian systems ... armaments ... server equipment for the work of the Government ... MO ... FSB ... SVR, etc. will provide ...
Security of the State is not a commercial project ... it’s about another ... will you be independent ... or stick your tongue and stuff ... there ...

[shahor]

Quote: silberwolf88

that a normal BAIKAL processor does not pay off BUT the independence of Russian systems ...

The Baikal processor does not provide independence - it provides a lag.

[Alf]

Quote: shahor

RUSNANO was created not to copy foreign products and technologies, but to develop its breakthrough products, with which it is not a shame to enter the market.

And where are these developments? A new anecdote went through the network - "Russia needs a breakthrough to Putin's call" the pipes of the heating plant in Samara were the first to respond.
And in your opinion, if you are behind, then you should not catch up?

[shahor]

Quote: Alf

And in your opinion, if you are behind, then you should not catch up?

Catching up doesn't mean copying. A copy is always worse than the original

[Grigory_78]

Right Recently read about it. In order not to be a constant outsider in the same electronics, Russia needs its own elemental base of electronic components. All these domestic copies of western microcircuits always turn out worse.

[jonht]

"Dear", write the president's surname with a capital letter, or are you, like the Banderaites, ready to "humiliate" him?
There are rules of the RUSSIAN language, follow them, and you will pass for a patriot more. Learn to appreciate at least "your" native language, and do not turn it into a trash can.
PS There is no need to answer, YOUR answer is not important to me, vryatli it will be adequate to the remark .....

[Alf]

Quote: jonht

"Dear", write the president's surname with a capital letter, or are you, like the Banderaites, ready to "humiliate" him?

It is hardly possible to humiliate the president more than he humiliated himself in the eyes of the population.
The president can be respected for his affairs, but I personally do not notice such things.

[antique]

Quote: shahor

And our factory, having completed the annual order of Irkut in a month, the rest of the time will rest. And how many more technologies do we need to master? How much budget billions to invest? How many losses will Kudrin write off?

These billions must be invested in science. To new enterprises. And when you have unique products that no one has on the market, the question of sanctions will disappear. It is like gas. Everyone needs it. And despite all the sanctions sold. Without their own technology khan. So we will buy yesterday's goods.

[Alf]

Quote: Antique

These billions must be invested in science. To new enterprises.

And they invest in the Olympics and athletes who "owe nothing to anyone."

[2329 Carpenter]

Do new types of weapons from the Holy Alpha spirit appear in us?
Or are they zykany in the zones for tea-smoking-sweet files sharpen?

[antique]

There is nothing fundamentally new. All the last "miracles", even the development of the times of the Union. Tanks, airplanes, superwunderwales, underwater and flying. Just everything. It started then. Now they gave money. Brought to mind. Since there are no technologies, they sort of ... rallied, now there are problems with replication. This is where the alpha spirit begins. Andean processors Lego components, bourgeois. Well, as that folded. What we could have done ourselves. As you call it, we cut 1 piece with files. They don't know what to do next. Have arrived. Further, gel and botox in the turnip preziku, blepharoplasty for the premier, well, and uplifting speeches for the servants.

[shahor]

Quote: Antique

Without their own technology khan. So we will buy yesterday's goods.

You will not be able to create your own technology for all occasions. Some very important, critical, perhaps, but not tomorrow.

[antique]

Quote: shahor

You will not be able to create your own technology for all occasions. Some very important, critical, perhaps, but not tomorrow.

In fact, with the current approach to science, production, personnel, nothing will succeed. What we see now is miserable fragments of the Soviet heritage. Selected and brought to some kind of final result. Since when did the creation of a relatively small civilian aircraft become a national fix idea? Under Soviet rule, it is an absolutely ordinary and fairly easily resolved business. However, the Kremlin midget, the most passionate fan of ebn, participated in the destruction of the Russian economy. I was at one of the enterprises engaged in the production of carbon plastics. Instead of thematic products, for which there was no demand, carbon fiber combs were produced. To relieve a hangover syndrome. And now the rat wings have nothing to do with the wings of rats.

[2329 Carpenter]

Antik, quite your posts ... splatter, so to speak ...

[Grigory_78]

In general, I agree with you, but in some places you amused me a lot. About free circulation of capital, for example. Very, very free. Type in the search "BNP Paribas fine", "FATCA" - you will learn a lot of new things for yourself. As for optimism, they assure that the import substitution of these composites was puzzled back in 2014. It's 2019, exactly 5 years. I hope that statements about readiness for import substitution of composites for MS-21 have more grounds than statements about the start of serial production of PAK FA in 2013.

[D16]

And which contract on SSJ was blocked? Can you pamper the link about the contract? If you are about Iran, then it wasn’t, the contract ... There was a statement of intent that did not bind anyone to anything. Moreover, according to him, Iran was going to buy 40 SSJ with the letter "R". What does it mean, I think you already know very well. The fact that in some Jewish edition they once again threw g *** a on the fan for hamsters does not mean that it should be thrown further to the best of our strength and capabilities. It turns out like in a joke. Not in the lottery, but in cards, not the Volga, but 5 rubles, did not win, but lost .

[shahor]

Quote: D16

If you are talking about Iran, then it wasn’t, a contract.

Maybe you can explain why Sukhoi turned to the US authorities for permission to export to Iran, which was confirmed by the representative of the UAC?

[D16]

Duc Sukhovtsy, as it were, was not against selling the planes, and Iran was once again interested. I don’t remember which, if you count 204 . Naturally, our request was made. NSA Americans never answered, since they know the price of Iranian desires to acquire Russian planes very well ... And the Sukhovites began to develop the "R" modification for their MO, and for Iran, if it suddenly had money for it. Something like this.

[Grigory_78]

Considering that American components are used on the Superjet, it was required to obtain US approval before concluding the contract. No approvals received, respectively, about which contract are we talking about? He remained at the stage of intentions. One plus in this is that import substitution has reached the Superjet.

[dvina71]

Corps of strategic missiles are made of such a composite .. The problems are probably not in production ..

[Corn]

There are thousands of different types of carbon fiber reinforced plastics, all of them have different characteristics and scope. I can, of course, be mistaken, but I think that the wing and hull of the missiles are experiencing fundamentally different loads, different temperature conditions, different requirements for reliability and durability, and are made of different materials.

[dvina71]

Quote: Corn

Of course, I can be mistaken, but I think that the wing and body of the missiles are experiencing fundamentally different loads,

Yeah .. missile body .. overcoming the force of gravity. Of course experiencing less stress .. than the wing of the plane ... Are you serious?

[Rzzz]

The rocket body is used once. Unlike an airplane wing.

[dvina71]

Quote: rzzz

The rocket body is used once. Unlike an airplane wing.

The aircraft experiences an overload of 1.5G during take-off .. The rocket reaches a height of 10km in about 60 seconds .. Do you calculate the overload yourself?

[Rzzz]

Quote: dvina71

Count yourself the overload?

Of course I will.
According to your introductory results in 0,57G.

[Alf]

Quote: dvina71

The aircraft experiences an overload of 1.5G during take-off .. The rocket reaches a height of 10km in about 60 seconds ..

But only in materials science there are two different indicators - Peak load and Constant load.

[Flies]

The body of the rocket stages has a honeycomb structure, known from hell knows what time. Lightweight and durable. There is nothing super-duper materials there.
"... cheap, reliable and practical!" (c)

[Botanikas]

The combat missile body is designed to be well stored and bring the load to where it should be (shock loads 10 min + resistance to certain factors).
It is not tested for tens of thousands of take-off and landing cycles ...

[Grigory_78]

It doesn’t reach you that you are trying to compare green with hot figuratively speaking. A civilian aircraft made using military technology will be very expensive to manufacture and operate. The requirements are different. Absolutely.

[venik]

Quote: dvina71

Corps of strategic missiles are made of such a composite .. The problems are probably not in production ..

==========
So "composite" - "composite" - strife !!! It's the same as saying, well, for example: "polymer" (and there are THOUSANDS of them (polymers) !!! With "composites" - the same story .... So exactly the one that was NECESSARY and was not produced !! ! Thank God, at least they did it in a timely manner .... Although they could have thought in advance - otherwise they got used to: "We'll buy it abroad! .... We'll buy it abroad!" Bought !!! "A donut hole." domestic SPECIALISTS - scientists and technologists "hurry up" !!!!

[dvina71]

Quote: venik

So "composite" - "composite" - strife !!!

Carbon fiber .. is produced in Russia .. in Rosatom .., Alabuga-Fiber ..

[Zaurbek]

This is not a problem.

[Hole puncher]

Quote: dvina71

Corps of strategic missiles are made of such a composite .. The problems are probably not in production ..

Composite is a ready-made material that is made of carbon fiber sintered with a special resin in an autoclave (a common method) or using laser technology, which we bought from the Austrians. The latter is good for producing large critical parts such as a wing. So fiber and resin have different characteristics, for fiber it is the ultimate load and elastic modulus. The higher these characteristics, the less carbon fiber is needed and, accordingly, the lighter the structure.

[Zaurbek]

Technology bought from the Japs

[ain1959]

The problem is certification, we already make wings from composite, even better than in the USA, they don’t want to certify the United States that they will not be allowed to market. RUSSIA REVIVES ITS WINGS
Nobody does as much as the US to develop Russian aviation
Ruslan Khubiev http://www.iarex.ru/articles/63333.html http://argumenti.ru/society/n534/442691

[nznz]

tired of all this. Well, just an idiot it is not clear that the pies have long been apart. Lessons must be obtained and conclusions drawn, and we still call the enemies dear partners. These pigs only understand the kick, or the smell of blood from the slaughterhouse, they don’t understand the other.

[Grigory_78]

I have already spoken and will repeat it. A sparring partner is also a partner. Moreover, he can offend you not childishly, and you him. A potential adversary would probably be more accurate. Generally interesting is the evolution of terms from potential opponents to incredible friends and then to our partners.

[Spiritual]

The wing will be created from domestic composite materials.

I am sure that we can, but thieves and rogues can let the whole thing go down the drain ..
Remember that we created everything from needles to orbital flights on our own behind the "iron curtain" !!!!

[dvina71]

Quote: Spiritual

thieves and swindlers

They are the ones who buy materials abroad .., Alabuga - since 15g it has been producing carbon fiber .., though this applies to Rosatom State Corporation ... you won’t get too hot ..

[Hole puncher]

Quote: dvina71

They are the ones who buy materials abroad .., Alabuga - since 15g it has been producing carbon fiber .., though this applies to Rosatom State Corporation ... you won’t get too hot ..

Do you know the characteristics? Or do you think that it makes no difference what’s fishing rod, what’s wing?

[dvina71]

Quote: Puncher

Do you know the characteristics?

The Japanese claim that their T800S has a side-strength of 5.8 GPa ..
12k Umateks (Alabuga-Fiber) 5.5 GPA ..
Somehow I came across purchases of imported analogues .. I was transporting ventilation modules for Prirazlomnaya ... when I said what the purchase price of these modules was, manufacturers of ventilation systems at our local enterprise .. they considered that the difference in cost ... even when using imported galvanization .. three times ... But you can’t cut the dough on ours ...

[Grigory_78]

Thanks for a good example. Itself is not involved in the procurement of equipment at all, but the scheme is painfully familiar. Repeatedly described.

[Spiritual]

Quote: dvina71

Quote: Spiritual

thieves and swindlers

They are the ones who buy materials abroad .., Alabuga - since 15g it has been producing carbon fiber .., though this applies to Rosatom State Corporation ... you won’t get too hot ..

Let's break through, the main thing is that the sanctions are not lifted .. They are useful for Russia, we begin to move, we begin in all areas ...
It's a pity that you can’t shoot!

[ain1959]

AS WELL THIS. THE FACTORY IS AND IT WORKS AND WE DO NOT WHY “AeroComposit-Ulyanovsk” is the only plant in the world producing large strength structural elements and assemblies for aviation from composite materials created using the vacuum infusion method. Experts from leading Western aircraft manufacturing concerns acknowledge that Ulyanovsk technology has outstripped time and the wing of even the newest Boeing-787 Dreamliner composite airliner, you can say the old-fashioned way, using an autoclave made of capricious and super-expensive prepregs. If such material is not used, it must be frozen, and then no more than 10 days. Http://argumenti.ru/society/n534/442691

[Dzafdet]

An article from the series "All polymers were profuked". But even during the development of the Bulava, these problems got out. No, they pulled it to the last ...

[Vadim237]

The mace in service and in the series is not strange.

[Alf]

Quote: Vadim237

The mace in service and in the series is not strange.

The only rubber coating plant for submarines in Russia has been destroyed; rubber is now being purchased in China. Is the analogy clear? The recent scandal about foreign parts on Russian satellites does not mean anything?

[Fevralsk. Morev]

At the helm of our country traders. The very thought of producing something is disgusting to them. Only trade. For resources to buy what you need to produce yourself.

[D16]

What a greasy draft. https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2544628.html

[Vadim237]

Are you so sure about that?

[Altona]

Borisov's statements about the "uselessness" of the Armat and the Su-57 also apparently lie in the plane of a certain dependence on imported components and materials.

[Zaurbek]

Su57 -100% there composite all outdoor panels and tail

[Grigory_78]

Borisov did not say a word about the uselessness. Only that there is no need to rush with mass production until the tests are completed. One journalism came up with, another hundred replicated, now all and sundry are repeating. Then 080808 Russia attacked Georgia, and we chose Trump as president, and the GRU poisoned Skripal. Since a hundred times the reprinted in the media is a priori true. Feel free to smack nonsense. She certainly hurt, but nothing will tolerate. Fate is like that.

[Antidote]

Until the rooster pecks.
It was good, I sold oil, I bought a plane, but something went wrong. Further it will be worse, a lot of time is lost.

[Henderson]

This is all the damned 90s! 18 years after them, and that was not enough.

[Fevralsk. Morev]

For 18 years, Peter the first of the Moscow kingdom transformed our country into an empire. Stalin in 12 years created Industry from scratch. And when time and money are spent on ambitious breakthrough projects, there is no money for real affairs with real results, no time

[Vadim237]

There was no empty place under Stalin — all industry remained from the Russian Empire — it was developed.

[antique]

Of course the damned nineties. However, the galley slave opens the Yeltsin center, kisses the hands of the widow of the first "popularly elected", the son-in-law of the beloved leader, becomes and is an advisor to the prezik for all 18 years, redhead \ I don’t know how to write so that there is no ban \ \ probably it is possible, this is not mat received a sweet post, again in the best traditions of the nineties, the pension reform, and suck with Alekseeva, and so on and so forth. I almost forgot. Semi-oligophrenic Chernomyrdin, who loses Russia, is sent to Ukraine. Which, as it should be in the absence of a brain, about ..... ball. For outstanding state services, another miracle ship is named after him. As they say to Caesar, Caesar. Liliputin, another portion of the gel in the face mirror, at public expense. So we will win!

[Grigory_78]

"The devastation is not in the closets, but in the heads. If instead of working, I start singing, there will be devastation in my house."

[Plate]

Very well. Its production of composites must be developed.

[Corn]

It is a logical decision, as far as I know, for the su57 carbon wing is made from domestic materials. And yet, the issue of dates and certification remains open, ms21 is already a slight lag behind the planned schedule, and still put off ....

UAC plans to appeal the decision of American and Japanese suppliers

We must not appeal, but sue in full for a penalty.

[Rzzz]

Quote: Corn

do not appeal against the ado, but sue in full for the penalty.

Neither this nor that will succeed. Force majeure is prescribed in any contract, and this is a typical case

[Aleks2048]

But this is a field of work for lawyers. You can’t talk about force majeure when it becomes a system.

[Rzzz]

This should be a field of work for the lawyer before the contract is signed. It's too late to rock the boat.
And minus someone put there in vain. These are the realities of modern business.

[Aleks2048]

This should be a field of work for the lawyer before the contract is signed.

Perfect option.
I agree. Everything in court is obviously worse.

[ANCIENT]

Actually, we kind of declared IMPORT SUBSTITUTION, so complaining is just really stupid. But one needs to develop one's own production in practice, and not engage in more talking.

[Andrey Chistyakov]

Quote: ANCIENT

Actually, we kind of declared IMPORT SUBSTITUTION, so complaining is just really stupid. But one needs to develop one's own production in practice, and not engage in more talking.

Yes, there is not so much a complaint about the meanness of the "partners".

[Hypersound]

Ask Sukhoi, in the end they made 70% of the Su-57 glider from carbon

[donavi49]

I will say it again - you can buy fibers and resins at the household store, and you can even find Russian ones. And bake in the oven at least a probe on Jupiter.

Su-57 or MiG-29M / KUB or something else was calculated for certain characteristics of the material. The MS-21 wing was calculated using materials from market leaders (with certain strength, resource and operational characteristics, weight, etc.) - and again, even in this news:
UAC plans to appeal the decision of American and Japanese suppliers

[Vadim237]

In the future, they will make 3D printers that print: fuselage, flaps, slats, ailerons, tail units, it will be much easier to produce.

[Altona]

Quote: donavi49

Su-57 or MiG-29M / KUB or something else was calculated for certain characteristics of the material.

-------------------------
There is not only a wing of resin and fibers. The same MS-21 and SSJ, there is already Parker hydraulics, for example, it is from fittings and fluid couplings to valves and distributors, hydraulic locks and cylinders. There are actually lists, this is just the first thing I remembered offhand. And in electronics, what's going on there? Who does the bearings with us, probably SKF or Timken, and not Saratov?

[svp67]

The head of the KLA noted that a decision had already been made regarding the future parameters of the wing of a medium-haul Russian passenger aircraft. The wing will be created from domestic composite materials.

Long live His Majesty "The Magic PENDAL". It seems that we only need it to step forward.

OURSELVES TO DO IT, Gentlemen, OWN. It is clear that you can’t steal a lot from this, but you even have to steal from PROFIT, and not from DAMAGES.
Moreover, the same composite wing of our new IL-112 transporter. So, the material for him must be done and in no case should one rely on China.

[engineer74]

It should be easier! "Partners" to ashes and glass - and no Magic Pendals are needed!

[D16]

C'mon! Composite wing on IL-112 !!! Long?

[taiga2018]

how many more sanctions are needed for some oak heads to finally realize that at the moment no cooperation with the "civilized" is possible, especially if this leads to competition with them ...

[Fevralsk. Morev]

When the stolen money is taken out and stored in the partner country, you don’t particularly show off

[afrikanez]

leading industry experts from Rosatom, VIAM, scientists from Moscow State University, specialists from a number of private companies are involved

Damn it, they forgot about Chubais. He would have done it with his Rusnano

[donavi49]

Yes. But the main question is compliance. I repeat, even you can go to the household store / online store and buy the components in the oven to bake your MS-21. And even from domestic materials. The only question is the strength, resource, operational characteristics for a certain weight / shape.

The problem / feature - the whole project, in the use of really modern materials. Therefore, they contracted fiber from the Japanese, and in the USA resins. Under these characteristics created a wing. If domestic material cannot get into the aircraft structural reserve (which is small - because a large reserve = bad for a commercial flight). You will have to make design changes - which will degrade performance.

The analogy is clear from the previous topic:
in Russia do 65nm
procure through reliable sanction-resistant channels 28nm
14nm standard in the world
a certain company - an industry leader is already doing 10нм and the Product has been calculated for this.
revolutionary technology is coming that will give 5-7нм processes.

Actually, you can return to 65 or 28нм, but you will have to redo the entire product and your competitive advantage will be lost.

[ANCIENT]

Donavi 49 - 7nm process technology has been mastered for a year already! By our efforts, but not in our country. ..

[donavi49]

Well, these are trifles, in the sense of my analogy works.

It was possible - but again, the analogs of 65nm or 28nm at the time when the product comes out 7nm will already be mastered, and 5nm is on the way. Again, the competitors are not sleeping and will use it. That is, obviously a losing situation.

They put the risk - in the form of 10nm among the market leaders. But not a bit took off. Literally a year 2 not calculated.

[ain1959]

Can I clarify in which country our corrupt scientists have attached?

[ANCIENT]

-ain1959-In two Asian countries, it’s just not corrupt, but unemployed, under a contract ...

[ain1959]

Could you specify?

[kjhg]

A strange question, but Laos is not with Cambodia, in fact

[ain1959]

Iran will still buy the main thing, let it be calculated

[Aleksandr21]

There is still a moment with the timing of serial production of the MS-21. If domestic components are still being tested + there will be their certification, then the aircraft will go serially at best in 3-4 years and in the worst from 5-10 years. Will the aircraft be competitive in the market by then? The MS-21 has enough competitors: the Boeing-737 MAX, Airbus A320neo and there are also Chinese who are developing their own aircraft .... by the time they are released, the price will go up due to domestic components, so the airplane has a difficult future. Even our domestic airlines may not wait for it and buy from competitors, and there is nothing to say about the world market.

[Vadim237]

That’s how they will manage in 4 years and in 2023 mass production of the aircraft will begin.

[Fevralsk. Morev]

We have a wagon and a small trolley. Moses leads us in the desert for 18 years. There are 22 more left and we will be at home in the new Russia

[ain1959]

They say that there will be enough fiber for 10 aircraft, and that’s money, but we’ll come up with something, in particular, at the end of 2018, sanctions were introduced prohibiting companies from the USA and Japan from supplying materials for the composite wing. This is not an unsolvable problem; on the contrary, it opens up new chances for domestic manufacturers, but nevertheless it perfectly characterizes Washington.
The fact is that the Russian company Aerocomposite (producing unique wings) uses absolutely innovative developments in aviation and arouses burning interest among Western corporations and developers. The use of the Russian “black wing” improves the characteristics of the aircraft so significantly that a queue has been drawn from those who wish. You can exchange our titanium for their plastic ....

[Campanella]

In general, you should start thinking at such a level before you are going to do something.

[APASUS]

Well, how many of us will be dunked in manure, when our authorities already understand that production should be developed by themselves? They teach, but by the way, a very good excuse to talk with the Japanese about the peace treaty and the islands, it's time to ask the "partners"

[donavi49]

The Japanese are not independent here. Moreover, this company (Toray Industries) has a business in the United States, companies in the United States and, in general, is significantly dependent on the United States.

[Nizhlogger]

And if they’re not independent, then there’s nothing to talk with.
No one signs peace treaties with children dependent on their parents.

[Andrei Nikolaevich]

Is it really impossible to stop the supply of titanium for Dreamliners, in response to this nonsense? Slusar, with its own, courts and claims, looks like Ukrainians in the Crimea. Those, too, appealed to run.

[Campanella]

It is possible and necessary, only first it is necessary to establish the production and operation of their aircraft, because partners will take and will not sell you their Boeing and Airbuses.

[Vadim237]

It is necessary to enter a line in future joint contracts - in case of failure to fulfill the agreements in the contract, a penalty in ten times the value of the transaction.

[Campanella]

Who will you sue? With a Texas court? ))) Our gut is thin.

[irazum]

I must say something. "Trampoline number 2".

[Awaz]

It's just some kind of ... UAC screwed up utterly. They tormented and continue to torment SuperJet and there is still no exhaust from him. Moreover, they refuse him more than they buy. Even Aeroflot. Here the United States banned just now !!! sell it to Iran ... The problem is not with the Americans and the Japanese. The problem in local managers ...

[D16]

Bombardier generally had to give the 300th series to Watermelon. Many who refused SSJ? Do you have proofs about Aeroflot? Who did the United States ban, and what was Iran going to buy? And what does the USA have to do with this modification of the GSS?

[Stoler]

"The wing will be made of domestic composite materials." - cho ,,,, plywood again ??

[D16]

She, a birthplace on graphene nanotubes .

[Vlad5307]

You can sneer and make fun of this for a long time, but the refusal to fulfill the contract should be compensated for by fines for these companies. This is also another proof of the failure of the blind faith of our government and the president in the so-called. liberal capitalism and the market - there is no such thing in the world and will not be, as long as the only value is the number of foreign valuable and not very pieces of paper, and not the development of their state and the good of the whole people, and not a separate group of financiers and business owners. In parallel, the SGA banned the sale of the MS-21 outside the Russian Federation, since it is more than 20% assembled from their parts. And our government, when concluding agreements on cooperation, could not think about it. Headless or simple-minded? I don’t believe it, they were just interested in this by their business partners in order to close this project in the future. And the engines on it are also imported and wait for the next gifts now from European partners. It has long been known that no one in the West needs the Russian aircraft industry, and our liberal government even has a stake on its head - it still looks into the mouth of its "partners"!

[jovanni]

Quote: Vlad5307

And our government when it concluded a cooperation agreement could not think about it. Headless or open-hearted?

Yes, once they just had to deal with such nonsense! At that time, they had more important things to do, for example, remaking the police to the police ... Or changing time zones to and fro ...

[Grigory_78]

Oh yeah. Ingenious character. The last pearl is the magical retention of prices with rising fuel costs due to higher VAT rates and excise taxes.

[Fevralsk. Morev]

in power worse than a saboteur

[evgen1221]

Yes, even if it flies on plywood wings, I would clean the internal transportation from Boeing with total lobbying by the state.

[bald]

Sorry, 25 again, until the cock bites in one place. Pecked and suddenly caught on SOS! If desired, this question could be raised five years ago.

[ohka]

Newton's first law - a prerequisite for the start of movement of any body is a kick

[Syroitel_nik]

Thanks to Amers for helping us develop the industry.

[Vlad5307]

Quote: bald

Sorry, 25 again, until the cock bites in one place. Pecked and suddenly caught on SOS! If desired, this question could be raised five years ago.

At the same time, it was necessary to raise the issue of the production of engines and other things for the MS-21, otherwise when all the cards are in the hands of the "partners" (> 70% of the components) you will not move anywhere. And the resource of the engines turned out to be small and the supply of spare parts takes a lot of time - so we got the job done with the "partners"!

[D16]

PD-14 is not certified for MS-21?

[miracle3213]

Well, on the one hand, this is wonderful. If we have a technology for the production of composite wings. And on the other hand, will our material pass international certification? Even if he is better than the Japanese in all respects, will politics intervene? But without this certificate, the MS-21 can only fly inside Russia, which is neither interesting nor profitable ...

[ain1959]

Quote: chudo3213

Well, on the one hand, this is wonderful. If we have a technology for the production of composite wings. And on the other hand, will our material pass international certification? Even if he is better than the Japanese in all respects, will politics intervene? But without this certificate, the MS-21 can only fly inside Russia, which is neither interesting nor profitable ...

Can the same Iran, China, India and Africa be sold for local transportation, and then the donkey can die, the main thing is that our wing would be cheaper than them, and if it goes further they will soon ban all our flights to the USA?

[D16]

And if we ban them over the territory of Russia?

[pafegosoff]

Korolev R-7 also collected from imported materials?
In general, with these composites more than 20 years ago, experienced manufacturers praised them at the innovation exhibition in St. Petersburg. And from carbon, and from other fibers ... But somehow, neither the grefs nor the figefs needed this.
(During his time in the administration of St. Petersburg, German Gref met with Vladimir Putin, Alexei Kudrin, Dmitry Kozak, Dmitry Medvedev. German Oskarovich and Vladimir Putin (then vice-mayor) were consultants and members of the advisory board of the German real estate company SPAG, created by initiative of the city hall of the northern capital.
During the formation of the government of Mikhail Kasyanov, German Gref was invited to the post of Minister of Economic Development. German Oskarovich held this position from 2000 to 2007. In the next government of Mikhail Fradkov, German Gref again took the post of Minister of Economic Development and Trade.)
These are the people who "developed" the country. And they continue to "develop".
And their partners from Europe, Japan and the USA are just waiting for the Russians to be left on Earth at all.

[Gerklim]

About how it turns out. We are told about sanctions, import substitution, and then they bought wings from their '' best '' partners. Domestic aircraft from foreign components.

[Strashila]

"The Russian Aviation Plant has created carbon wings for the MS-21 better than the Boeing 787" http://24ri.ru/down/o-116.html dated February 22, 2016, the article raised the issue of the quality and advanced technology for the production of wings for the MS -21, the main issue was raw materials, there are possible manufacturers not only in America, but also in Japan and Austria. So the topic is not new.

[ain1959]

The main thing is silent who they are

[Campanella]

What a stupid thing. A plant can produce, not create. I do not think that they have their own design bureau, too expensive.

[asar]

How old are sanctions and counter-sanctions already ?!
We make excellent military equipment, but what sort of plane do the Problem ?!

[Campanella]

Not just appeal, but invoice. But something tells us that the Americans are covered by the contract.
In general, the situation shows the real state of our industry and science, and most importantly the lack of a systematic approach to the development of industries. As Ukrainians have some kind of toad jumping.

[Radikal]

Slyusar noted that work on the creation of domestic analogues of Japanese and American composite materials has been conducted since 2014. Leading industry experts from Rosatom, VIAM, scientists from Moscow State University, and specialists from a number of private companies are involved in this work.

"Rusnano" forgot for some reason ....

[Grigory_78]

And what does Rusnano have to do with it? Haha! Haha! It is better that the redhead does not even go past, away from sin.

[Radikal]

Quote: Fevralsk. Morev

Chubais netrozh !!!! He is from the president’s team, but he doesn’t scatter personnel

[Radikal]

Quote: shahor

Quote: silberwolf88

key technologies (if there is no desire to go under the US and have a sip), you must have your ...

The problem is that there are too many key technologies, and the technologies themselves are insanely complex and expensive. Today no country in the world can have the entire set of such technologies. This is the root of the development of the global economy and the free circulation of capital. Every more or less developed country strives to find its place in the technology market with its own unique product and by all means to preserve it. In place of a loser, an unscrupulous manufacturer, others will immediately come. Therefore, the cries of some "patriots" about the termination of deliveries of titanium products to Boeing or engines in the United States will lead to Boeing buying titanium from China or Japan (production volumes of titanium products there are about twice as high as in Russia), and engines will replace import. But that's not all. Globalization as a whole is an economy for a country participating in the international division of labor. Judge for yourself, using composites as an example. Can we create an analogue? Sure! You will need to develop and manufacture equipment for its production, develop your own technology, and set up production. As a result, in 5 years (I am an optimist), we may get a product of a similar quality, which by that time, quite possibly, will become outdated and will be replaced by a new, more technological one. In the end, billions of rubles from the state budget have been spent, a deliberately unprofitable production has been created - Irkut is not Boeing or Airbus, how many MC-21s it tweaks a year, how many wings will it cut? Do you think anyone abroad will rush to buy your composite? Not
I think, you will remember both titanium, and engines, and trampolines, and games with gas, to create a reputation as a reliable partner is difficult, it is easy to destroy it with a fool. And our factory, having completed the annual order of Irkut in a month, the rest of the time will rest. And how many more technologies do we need to master? How much budget billions to invest? How many losses will Kudrin write off? Copying today is a dead end. RUSNANO was created not to copy foreign products and technologies, but to develop its breakthrough products, with which it is not a shame to enter the market. Trading oil and gas is not a big mind.

How many words, how much pathos, I directly see the author with cheeks swollen with pride for Rusnano ...! Only two questions - where are all these "breakthrough" products, and in whose interests does this shop work? We are all in the spotlight ...!

[Vadim237]

The Baikal processor was created with funding from Rusnano.

[Adimius38]

Well, what were Vova and Dima thinking? billions were slammed on the project, they all had friends and partners.

[Alf]

Quote: Adimius38

Well, what were Vova and Dima thinking?

It’s like to feed Ozerov’s friends.

[Campanella]

They wanted to get into the West, and they sent them in small steps.

[Vadim237]

If they wanted to zakorefanitsya - back in the 2000s they would zakorefanitsya.

[Campanella]

The fact of the matter is that the guys were explained their vassal position. They then thought of themselves as partners ... If they had merged everything, they would have become partners for about five minutes ...

[DPN]

It is necessary to appeal their actions and their consequences for Russia, and not the decisions of the West. There is a VIAM which all its existence works for aviation on this topic.
The question is whether Russia needs its own aircraft or to feed the west buying from them?

[D16]

"Feeding" is about nothing at all. This is a matter of sovereignty.

[Ironclad]

"At the same time, Slyusar added that the UAC plans to appeal against the decision of American and Japanese suppliers to refuse to fulfill their contractual obligations."
What does it mean to appeal?!?! Do not comply with the international court! How to Ukrainians Ukrainians filed! So we must react! As firm as possible!

[Yat]

Preimported

[JD1979]

I see the ability to think strategically at least a few years ahead, the top managers have completely atrophied. Either 10% of American parts turned out to be in the superbug, or American raw materials in the MS-21 ... 4 years of sanctions did not force the remnants of the cerebellum to turn on and give birth to a simple idea - they will turn us off 100% of the high-tech, we need to develop our base. And then, suddenly, in the 5th year of the sanctions confrontation, America opened for some ... America. Now it turns out that the replacement of "Corn" is also glued from American fiber ...

[_Ugene_]

There is no doubt that the domestic replacement of American materials for the MS-21 will appear in the very near future. “As for other materials for the production of black wings, in particular fabrics and some other elements, we will purchase them, for example, in Turkey and China,” said a representative of the Aviation Materials Science Institute directly involved in the MS-21 program. True, we must understand that the manufacture of new "black wings" for this aircraft and their testing, as well as debugging the production and supply system take at least 6 years.
It is clear that the sale of the MS-21 on the world market will begin no earlier than the middle of the next decade. And this is exactly what the Americans are seeking. It is no secret that the MC-21 will be at least 5% more economical than the existing narrow-body airliners of the latest generation Boeing 737 MAX and Airbus A320neo, which do not have so-called “black wings” and therefore are much less economical to operate. So, the appearance of the MS-21 could greatly reduce the income of American and European aircraft manufacturers. Of course, the world's airlines will not line up for him, but they will require additional discounts from Boeing and Airbus, citing the technical advantages of the new Russian aircraft. This scenario clearly does not suit the United States, which decided by all means to delay the start of sales of the MS-21 for several years. This fits well with the competitors' strategy, since by this time Boeing and Airbus will begin to design new narrow-body airliners with the same “black wings” and accept applications from airlines. And the MS-21 will not be able to stop them.

[Bypassed]

And at the same time in another galaxy:
Belarusian-Chinese Park "Great Stone". Resident - Composite Structures company. Among the founders of German companies are the world's leading leaders in the production of equipment and technologies for composite products.
EnergyEfficiencyInvest-Eurasia GmbH (EnergyEurasia)
Dieffenbacher System-Automation GmbH
In addition to production buildings, the company includes a research center, a testing laboratory, a workshop of small series.
The state also took a shoulder - through the Belarusian Innovation Fund.
The company itself does not produce materials - only finished products, but interaction with enterprises of the republic producing chemical fibers is organized.
Tasks were issued for the production of experimental batches of specialized chemical fibers and fabrics from them. Negotiations are also ongoing with other chemical industry enterprises on the production of their own starting components.
Next to the "Composite Structures" is the Minsk airport, with an exit to the take-off, on which the "Mriya" can land, railways and highways.

[Berkut154]

Everything you need to know about it fits into one video, where they pompously tried to demonstrate their know-how flying taxi-drone, which took off right there ... in front of an amazed audience in the face of the press! All Overweight !!!!

[rotfuks]

As far as I know, the composite is not much lighter than titanium. Tu 160 flies beautifully without composites. And a composite in aviation was invented from poverty. Not all countries have as much aluminum as in Russia. By the way, who is the largest supplier of aircraft aluminum and titanium for Boeing? "Rusal" under the control of Deripaska? Or will composites be closed in Russia, and in the United States, Russian aluminum is pouring river?

[lvov_aleksey]

you're right, the question of price, it’s easier to buy than to do - much less to get and cook.
and figure it out if you invest 10 years, and then deal with the sale

[Alf]

Quote: lvov_aleksey

a question of price, it’s easier to buy than to make - the more so to get and cook.

Not easier. Does the example of tsarist Russia mean nothing? They also shouted there, why do we need production, we will sell ... and buy everything. How did it come back to 1MB? And the purchased machine, as a rule, is twice as expensive, and the dependence of the hoo.

[D16]

Not in all countries electricity is cheaper than in Russia. Aluminum and titanium are the electricity embodied in metal. And the farther, the fewer competitors.

[lvov_aleksey]

what do you read, what do you want? it also says that development has been underway since 2014 + it has been voiced from other sources - the general idea (drop off), we will do everything ourselves. ps they are not afraid of us in terms of weapons, and we will surpass them in the economy (here they are afraid)