Military Review

Creation of airliner MC-21 was under threat due to sanctions

217
An article was published in the Kommersant newspaper, which describes the problems with the supply of materials for the further production of the Russian MS-21 aircraft. It is reported that the liner manufacturers are faced with the insecurity of composite materials for the manufacture of its wing.


Creation of airliner MC-21 was under threat due to sanctions


Previously, the contract for the supply of these materials was signed with Japan and the United States, however, due to the US sanctions and their support from Tokyo, the implementation of the contract was actually blocked.

Foreign composites planned to use in the production of the company "Aerocomposite", part of the KLA. Some components were supplied to Russia by Hexcel (USA) and Toray Industries (Japan).

In the material "Kommersant" says that the UAC (United Aircraft Corporation) is searching for a solution to the problem. In particular, together with Rostec, an opportunity is being considered to establish its own production of the required composites. However, in this case, the production of MC-21 will have to significantly shift in time. Plan B is also being considered, which consists of using metals as materials for creating a wing instead of composites.

Earlier it was announced that a composite wing of increased length should be one of the important advantages for the first medium-haul airliner created after the collapse of the USSR.

In Japan, which “wants” to sign a peace treaty with the Russian Federation under certain conditions, it appears that they continue to actively support anti-Russian sanctions, including in the civil sphere.
Photos used:
UAC
217 comments
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  1. plotnikov561956
    plotnikov561956 10 January 2019 06: 36
    +41
    Quite expected surprise ... normal logical series
    1. Stas157
      Stas157 10 January 2019 06: 40
      +30
      . The “plan B” is also considered, which is the use of metals as materials for creating a wing instead of “composites”.

      Then it will be another plane. It will not be possible to make a supercritical wing profile. (Thin and long wing)
      It is necessary to solve the problem with composites at the state level, as it was with the nuclear bomb at one time, or as it is now with hypersonic weapons.
      1. depressant
        depressant 10 January 2019 07: 39
        +1
        Stas157, here you need to count. Here "Avisma" - well done, hurry up and establish the production of titanium parts for Boeing. Or have already established. So, maybe they will stamp the wings for our plane. It is unlikely that titanium is heavier than a composite. Here, however, the question of price ...
        1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich
          Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 10 January 2019 07: 52
          +2
          Quote: depressant
          Here "Avisma" - well done, hurry up and establish the production of titanium parts for Boeing. Or have already established.

          The joint venture of VSMPO-Avisma and Boeing Corporation specializes in the production and roughing of titanium stampings for the assembly of the Boeing Dreamliner 737, 777 and 787 aircraft.
          1. Gogia
            Gogia 10 January 2019 09: 18
            +8
            It is necessary to "squeeze" AVISMA in response to US actions. The thing is that this fiber is used in the manufacture of military systems i.e. "At the forefront of technology" therefore problems have arisen.
            They knew and wrote about this problem more than a year ago. Chubais to the studio with his nano-technologies.
            1. bulvas
              bulvas 10 January 2019 09: 30
              +2
              The Japanese talked with the Americans began to crush the islands
              1. AlexG83
                AlexG83 10 January 2019 12: 10
                +1
                Quote: bulvas
                The Japanese talked with the Americans began to crush the islands

                Then a piece of news appeared that Russia had transferred the frail part of the gold reserves to the Japanese yen (due to a decrease in the dollar gold reserves), and they were yapping something else. It seems to me that the topic with the islands is a common nonsense, just the hegemon is pressing on them on all fronts. (but it is, just an opinion). :))
            2. artifact
              artifact 10 January 2019 10: 30
              +4
              Quote: Gogia
              It is necessary to "squeeze" AVISMA in response to US actions. The thing is that this fiber is used in the manufacture of military systems i.e. "At the forefront of technology" therefore problems have arisen.
              They knew and wrote about this problem more than a year ago. Chubais to the studio with his nano-technologies.

              Chewbacca to the wall!
          2. keeper03
            keeper03 10 January 2019 11: 36
            -3
            There must be an instant reaction - stop selling titaniumstop procurement watermelons и Boeing to domestic airlines (well, or increase duties by 50%)! angry Where is the support of the domestic manufacturer, Medvedev - are you there when you finish your destructive activity!?! am
            1. NEXUS
              NEXUS 10 January 2019 15: 26
              +1
              Quote: keeper03
              There should be an instant reaction - stop selling titanium, stop buying watermelons and Boeing in domestic airlines (well, or increase duties by 50%)!

              These are emotions, unfortunately, although understandable. In the scenario that you drew, the answer will be the following - stopping the maintenance of the boards that are already in our airlines, and this, I will tell you by quantity, is not at all sick. And also, the stop of deliveries components for Boeing and Watermelons. The result is a stop or full or partial air transportation over long distances in the Russian Federation, and as a result, transport Ales with a large mountain of losses. And now the question is, do you want this?
              To date, long-distance passenger and civilian cargo transportation is carried out for the most part by the Batons and Watermelons, since so far they have no replacement, from the word completely. MS-21 is a medium-haul aircraft, not a long-haul one. And by the end, what do you order then to make the transportation? TU-160-mi, or Ruslans?
              1. ASX
                ASX 10 January 2019 17: 23
                0
                No panic! Boeing - show the fact, and the Airbus should, on the contrary, increase supplies. And it’s not a fact that Boeing with a mattress will include the answer according to your scenario. They will understand, squeal and give up when they calculate the loss of babos under unfulfilled contracts. Plus, the internal tension will trample on the Boeing - titanium components just can not be replaced overnight. The plants will rise, the workers too.
                1. northern
                  northern 11 January 2019 23: 17
                  -1
                  We will show the fact to Boeing, USA will give EU sanctions, and Airbus will be erased, but oxygen will block us. Such symmetrical answers will become possible when we have our own alternative B and A, but so far it is not, alas.
                  PS and titanium, by the way, they will find it, it’ll just be a little more expensive than ours, but will, it’s just not a problem.
                  1. ASX
                    ASX 12 January 2019 15: 37
                    0
                    So our supply not only titanium at the box office, but also finished parts for the Boeing. Titanium mattresses may be found, but replacing finished products of the appropriate quality is a problem. Yes, even if they kill a little time and paper cars with the presidents and get the details, then going through international certification with these replacements will not be so quick and easy.
                    1. northern
                      northern 12 January 2019 17: 13
                      -1
                      Nevertheless, this is a solvable problem, given that the Russian Federation is not the only manufacturer of these products specifically.
              2. keeper03
                keeper03 10 January 2019 23: 37
                0
                Nexus, do you know a Russian proverb about a man and thunder ?! hi Otherwise, we will still be sitting on a needle called a Boeing watermelon! am Need to do something useful for our aviation industry, and not stick sticks and drive nails !!! request
          3. The comment was deleted.
        2. Kawado
          Kawado 10 January 2019 10: 44
          +1
          The problem is solvable, but time ... time ...
          In Russia, diamonds are stamped in batches, a composite can also, but financing and the creation of complex production are necessary, and this is exactly 3 more years.
          Although on the other hand - "it's better to lose a day, then fly in 5 minutes"
        3. Just a passerby
          Just a passerby 10 January 2019 12: 32
          +2
          And heavier and less durable. It will be necessary to recycle the entire wing. And there will be nothing left of all the benefits. The aircraft will not be competitive with foreign counterparts.
          1. Stalevar79
            Stalevar79 10 January 2019 21: 56
            0
            The aircraft will not be competitive with foreign counterparts.

            If it is made all-metal, then he, like all our equipment, will definitely have no analogues. But then it will be possible to show on the Star TV channel.
          2. keeper03
            keeper03 10 January 2019 23: 45
            0
            For domestic transportation, no advantages are needed (because the main advantage is jobs and domestic products), at least in the first stages of the liner's life! winked Produce a series of 50 aircraft let the aircraft industry get off its knees, and then you will think about competitive improvements! They are needed just over the hill, where competitors rule ! wassat And it’s high time to close the access to the bourgeoisie to the domestic market, a maximum of 10% of foreign cars from the total number of airline liners! angry
            1. northern
              northern 11 January 2019 23: 20
              -1
              This series will be gold, for metal is a completely different wing, from the word completely. it's R&D and time again.
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 10 January 2019 07: 55
        +1
        Quote: Stas157
        Then it will be another plane. It will not be possible to make a supercritical wing profile. (Thin and long wing)
        It is necessary to solve the problem with composites at the state level

        Yes, this is the only solution. Even with a delay.

        Metal is the path to inefficiency and non-competitive aircraft.

        Maybe the Chinese already have the necessary material?
        1. Gogia
          Gogia 10 January 2019 09: 20
          +5
          Yes, but China also has quality problems ...
        2. kjhg
          kjhg 10 January 2019 09: 47
          +4
          Maybe the Chinese already have the necessary material?
          They write that Chinese fiber of appropriate strength is several times thicker than American and Japanese, therefore, it is not suitable.
      3. Tarhan
        Tarhan 10 January 2019 08: 02
        +13
        Then it will be another plane.

        That's due to the fact that due to sanctions, the supply of foreign components stopped and the Su-57, Armata, Altair sank into oblivion. And not because it’s expensive. What is expensive is an excuse.
        1. ultra
          ultra 10 January 2019 09: 12
          -2
          Quote: Tarkhan
          That's due to the fact that due to sanctions, the supply of foreign components stopped and the Su-57 Armata sank into oblivion

          What t-14 and we have composite? laughing
          1. Tarhan
            Tarhan 10 January 2019 11: 50
            +3
            What t-14 and we have composite?

            The electronic component.
            1. ultra
              ultra 10 January 2019 11: 54
              -1
              What exactly from electronics to T14 on import?
              1. Tarhan
                Tarhan 10 January 2019 12: 23
                0
                What exactly from electronics to T14 on import?

                Well, I'm not an expert. It is electronic components for rangefinders, SLAs, KAZ. SAZ, Optoelectronic Suppression System, etc. etc.

                And if not, then tell me why Armata was not allowed into the series, because he rode in parades. What is expensive is an excuse. Rotenbergs, Deripaska and others could donate finances to three tank divisions.

                The fact of the matter is that dummies rode around in parades.
                1. ultra
                  ultra 10 January 2019 12: 33
                  +1
                  I understand that you are not aware of the availability of imported components on this tank?
                2. ultra
                  ultra 10 January 2019 12: 33
                  +1
                  Quote: Tarkhan
                  The fact of the matter is that dummies rode around in parades.

                  Can you prove it?
                3. ultra
                  ultra 10 January 2019 12: 36
                  -2
                  Quote: Tarkhan
                  Rotenbergs, Deripaska and others could donate finances to three tank divisions.

                  Baby talk! laughing
                  1. Tarhan
                    Tarhan 10 January 2019 15: 12
                    +4
                    Baby talk!

                    For an adult, explain why there is no Armat, Altairov, Su-57 in the series. After 10 years, propaganda screamed that now, just a little, a little.

                    And where???
                    1. ultra
                      ultra 10 January 2019 16: 47
                      -2
                      10 years of "shouting"? Why didn't I hear this op? The GPV 2018-2027 provides for the purchase of t-14 and su-57. hi
                      1. Tarhan
                        Tarhan 10 January 2019 16: 51
                        +1
                        And why didn’t I hear this op?

                        What was deaf. Well, if you haven’t heard, so what’s the matter, and do not listen to anything further.

                        And this is your purchase, as it has been foreseen ten times already. And the Su-57 had long had to fly as part of squadrons and regiments.
                      2. ultra
                        ultra 10 January 2019 17: 50
                        +1
                        Quote: Tarkhan
                        And this is your purchase, as it has been foreseen ten times already.

                        This is not mine, but the state one. Can you link 10 times?
                      3. Tarhan
                        Tarhan 10 January 2019 17: 51
                        -1
                        This is not mine, but the state one. Can you link 10 times?

                        That's when they get into operation then we'll see.
                      4. ultra
                        ultra 10 January 2019 17: 52
                        -1
                        Quote: Tarkhan
                        And the Su-57 had long had to fly as part of squadrons and regiments.

                        Yes, you sho? wassat
                      5. Tarhan
                        Tarhan 10 January 2019 17: 56
                        -1
                        This is not mine, but the state one. Can you link 10 times?

                        No, it’s strange, rushing to the face of facts.

                        If there is no composite even on a civilian plane, where does the composite come from for the fighter with its 9-fold overloads.

                        And then talk to yourself. Pokedova.
                      6. Stalevar79
                        Stalevar79 10 January 2019 22: 07
                        +3
                        Quote: ultra
                        GPV 2018-2027 provides for the purchase of t-14 and su-57.


                        We must speak directly in 2057, and there is either a donkey or a padish ...


                  2. UMA-UMA
                    UMA-UMA 11 January 2019 00: 19
                    0
                    Shaw here, the border troops of the USSR protect the oligarchy laughing
                    1. ultra
                      ultra 11 January 2019 11: 08
                      +1
                      Where did I defend the oligarchy?
        2. Vadim237
          Vadim237 10 January 2019 11: 27
          +1
          Armat platform is made of armored steel - there are no composites there.
      4. KCA
        KCA 10 January 2019 08: 55
        0
        Just the wings of the MS-21, carbon fiber, from Ulyanovsk
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 10 January 2019 09: 09
          +9
          Half - they are made at JSC Aerocomposite but from foreign materials.

          You will have to certify your own - this is 2-3 of the year, since there will be very stringent tests. Without them, even work on the MS-21 certificate is impossible. The result of 25 + year the plane leaves briskly.

          Metal in the wing - immediately deprives the entire project of meaning, because it will be economically inefficient in comparison with competitors, even just a flight on a flight. No problems with the service and the new board.
          1. KCA
            KCA 10 January 2019 09: 13
            +1
            Certification is an ordinary stopper of competitors; many times they wrote about certification brakes during the USSR, who brought the most money, a watermelon or a Boeing, and slippers
            1. donavi49
              donavi49 10 January 2019 09: 33
              +7
              Well here is the complex:
              1) We ordered fiber from market leaders. All other options are worse. That is, as a result, the pair will have the worst strength characteristics and as a consequence the question = will there be enough structural reserve or will the wing have to be redone. I put it is not enough - because now the reserves are scanty, because the economic efficiency of the aircraft is important.

              2) To create a nanofactory in words and in a layout for Russia 1 is one thing, to create a nanofactory that would make high-quality fiber is another.

              3) Even if you give them domestic certification, what will it solve? Sales are closed. X5 modifier insurance (which means tickets too). And what company will contact this, not from under the stick?
      5. username1234
        username1234 10 January 2019 09: 23
        -6
        The US government does not steer technology, for example, this is a private matter of Boeing and Lockheed.

        Why is it necessary to do here through the state? private company - let it spin itself.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 10 January 2019 10: 19
          +4
          Quote: username1234
          The US government does not steer technology, for example, this is a private matter of Boeing and Lockheed.

          Yeah ... tell it DARPA / ARPA. smile Remember what is ARPANET?
        2. northern
          northern 11 January 2019 23: 25
          -1
          Boeing sits in Congress at home
      6. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 10 January 2019 10: 04
        -1
        = “Plan B” is also being considered, which is the use of metals as materials for creating a wing instead of “composites.” =
        And you need to work according to plans A, B, C ... at the same time.
        Plan "A" is to try to push the Amers and Japs by suspending Avisma's work and putting pressure on the Japanese pain points. I'm sure there are.
        Plan "B" - Gathering carbon fiber specialists from all over Russia, set them the task of developing a technology for the production of carbon fiber in Russia.
        Plan "B" - Work on temporary replacement of CFRP with metal.
      7. Campanella
        Campanella 10 January 2019 10: 26
        +6
        If the state posed such a problem, then with a high degree of probability it would solve it.
        They already talked about the position of the state ... before the sanction in 2014, they had a damn industry of their own, they thought and think like traders.
      8. Campanella
        Campanella 11 January 2019 00: 32
        +2
        Will not work. The composite should be used somewhere, and we practically do not have our own aircraft in operation.
        My opinion is that the normal production of IL-96 and Tu-204/214 should be resumed for use primarily on domestic lines, and a warranty repair system should be established. And already breathing in the aircraft industry to solve promising tasks.
    2. Nevsky_ZU
      Nevsky_ZU 10 January 2019 06: 46
      +27
      Quote: plotnikov561956
      Quite expected surprise ... normal logical series

      They thought the civilian sector would blow. I don’t understand one thing, there were so many reports as our Russian women gathered these composite wings right by the strings. The plot name I do not remember exactly. As a result, the raw materials are also foreign? Yes, let it already be Tu-214 and IL-96 400m than this hodgepodge. The price of this cooperation? They even spit on profit. No invisible market hand and fair competition code of ethics.
      1. 210ox
        210ox 10 January 2019 06: 51
        +8
        Yes, let it be. We just have to take into account the fact that we already live in a different society. And this aircraft is intended primarily for our PRIVATE airline companies. They do not care about patriotism, they need to count money. How much will it cost to operate, how economical is this aircraft etc..
      2. Hole puncher
        Hole puncher 10 January 2019 06: 57
        +4
        Quote: Nevsky_ZU
        I don’t understand one thing, there were so many reports as our Russian women gathered these composite wings right by the strings.

        Nonsense write what women? There is a fully automated production of Austrian technology on European machines.
        Quote: Nevsky_ZU
        As a result, the raw materials are also foreign?

        The best carbon fiber is made in Japan at Toray. We do not have carbon fiber with similar characteristics.
        1. Nevsky_ZU
          Nevsky_ZU 10 January 2019 07: 05
          +2
          Nonsense write what women? There is a fully automated production of Austrian technology on European machines.

          Means mixed up with a plot about a military fighter. There were only laser marks and machine guns, and women were guided along the laser mark.
          1. Nevsky_ZU
            Nevsky_ZU 10 January 2019 07: 09
            +9
            I found this manual assembly from women of the black wing of the su-57
            I admit, not ms-21. But by hand. So partially answered for the bazaar)
            1. Hole puncher
              Hole puncher 10 January 2019 07: 31
              -4
              Quote: Nevsky_ZU
              I found this manual assembly from women of the black wing of the su-57
              I admit, not ms-21. But by hand.

              Perhaps somewhere still wheat is harvested with sickles and chopped coal with a Kyle. This is from the same series.
            2. Vadim237
              Vadim237 10 January 2019 11: 30
              -1
              Su 57 has different composites.
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
      3. DenZ
        DenZ 10 January 2019 08: 14
        +8
        Quote: Nevsky_ZU
        The price of this cooperation? They even spit on profit. No invisible market hand and fair competition code of ethics.

        It is notable to us, the Russians, that in the early 90s they spun about the invisible hand of the market that will regulate everything. And now we saw this hand with a muzzle in a fist. Now only state. regulation and the will to import substitution can save the situation.
        1. Pivot
          Pivot 10 January 2019 08: 43
          +6
          It’s necessary to chop this market hand, and for a long time. The hand of the market may be present in the production of toilet paper, no more.
        2. Tarhan
          Tarhan 10 January 2019 12: 00
          +1
          It is notable to us, the Russians, that in the early 90s they spun about the invisible hand of the market that will regulate everything.

          There was no need to bark at this hand.

          There China did not bark, but grabbed Western technology, know-how, investment. I didn’t scream about the Chinese world, about Chinese bonds, about getting up from my knees.

          And he became, with the help of the West, the second power of the world with 15% of the global economy. And whoever barked has 1,5%. But China in the 80 years had only 1%.
      4. Glory1974
        Glory1974 10 January 2019 08: 48
        0
        I don’t understand one thing, there were so many reports as our Russian women gathered these composite wings right by the strings.

        As far as I remember, in the newspaper "Argumenty Nedeli" there was an article that a plant for the production of composite materials was built in Tatarstan. And now they will not only have enough for their planes, but they will also sell them abroad.
        Who brechet is not clear.
        1. Hole puncher
          Hole puncher 10 January 2019 08: 55
          +6
          Quote: glory1974
          Tatarstan built a plant for the production of composite materials.

          Built a plant for the production of wings from composite materials for the MC21. And materials for the production of composites (carbon fiber and resins) are bought in Japan and the United States.
          1. Stirbjorn
            Stirbjorn 10 January 2019 11: 16
            +4
            Quote: Puncher
            Built a plant for the production of wings from composite materials for the MC21. And materials for the production of composites (carbon fiber and resins) are bought in Japan and the United States.

            Recently, there was news to us that they had built an insulin production plant, like now we’ll overwhelm ourselves and the whole world, though the little attribute was small, that we needed to import raw materials from Denmark. It is the same with composite wings - an advanced technology, its own, and raw materials from Japan fellow
          2. okko077
            okko077 10 January 2019 18: 09
            -1
            How can you build a plant without raw materials? This is a topic for law enforcement agencies with the planting of those who decided to build such a plant. Surnames and dates should be announced, let them get ready for planting .... I won’t be surprised if tomorrow it turns out that the plant itself grew like a mushroom ...
        2. Gogia
          Gogia 10 January 2019 09: 22
          +2
          Do not read Soviet newspapers before eating !!!
          Well, the plant, well, vacuum infusion, and whose raw materials ???
          1. Glory1974
            Glory1974 10 January 2019 10: 51
            +2
            The information was that it was they who produce it themselves, and not only from other people's raw materials, that’s why the question is, who is brechit?


            Rosatom has invested 4 billion rubles. to a new enterprise in Alabuga (Republic of Tatarstan). The capacity of the first line is 1,7 thousand tons. Construction began in 2012, in March 2015 the plant reached the marching line, production reached 1,5 thousand tons. This is only the beginning, it is planned to launch another 3 – 4 similar lines. At this rate, in a few years, carbon fiber production will reach 7 – 8 thousand tons per year. The Russian Federation will be equal to China, will completely cover the needs of industry and begin large-scale deliveries abroad.
    3. Kent0001
      Kent0001 10 January 2019 08: 07
      +6
      Surprise? Rather, sabotage, to conclude agreements with openly hostile countries to the Russian Federation! Idiocy, although it is already a tradition - we lose cases in court, imprisoned like on "our" terms by Miller's platinum lawyers. But what about import substitution? Where is it? Or can we only open sawmills using our own equipment?
      1. 23424636
        23424636 10 January 2019 15: 58
        0
        the fact that they launched the technology with imported components and put it uncontested under the conditions of sanctions is a crime and not a game of fantasies how to overcome the inconvenience of a lockout
      2. politach-delivery
        politach-delivery 10 January 2019 22: 35
        +1
        But what about import substitution?

        Are you okay with import substitution? What are you worried about?

        Just panic, like a lib. What a shiz, God forgive me.
    4. letinant
      letinant 10 January 2019 09: 09
      +3
      Question. Are we still sending titanium to Boeing?
    5. keeper03
      keeper03 10 January 2019 11: 31
      +1
      Yes Yoshkin cat, how much can you step on the same rake ?! !! request fool negative
      What do you want to do, and the plane to fly and in the right amount !!! am
      Comrade Beria - your way out, well, we can’t cope with the enemies of the people in the government! soldier
  2. samarin1969
    samarin1969 10 January 2019 06: 36
    +8
    "... together with Rostec we are considering the possibility of setting up our own production of the required composites."
    For another 5 years they will "consider the possibility" ... This is called "acceleration of scientific and technological progress" in Russian. laughing
    1. Hole puncher
      Hole puncher 10 January 2019 06: 39
      +5
      Quote: samarin1969
      For another 5 years they will "consider the possibility" ...

      The point is not just carbon fiber, but the required strength characteristics. In this regard, the Japanese are ahead of the planet, the most durable carbon fiber is made in Toray. In order to use carbon fiber of lower strength, but available on the market, the wing must be completely redesigned.
      1. KCA
        KCA 10 January 2019 09: 04
        -2
        Hope on Toray, but don't make a mistake yourself, I strongly doubt that Toray composites are used in the production of Avangard, there are also their own developments and manufacturers, obviously not titanium in a shell, will burn to hell like tissue paper
      2. Vadim237
        Vadim237 10 January 2019 11: 32
        0
        To create your own composites, you need to contact VIAM.
        1. KCA
          KCA 11 January 2019 00: 21
          0
          VIAM has so many developments that yapy and mattresses can only be envied, the problem is in practical implementation, but sanctions help here, too, here: https://topwar.ru/152338-v-rossii-prinjato-reshenie-po- materialam-dlja-kryla-ms-21.html
    2. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 10 January 2019 06: 41
      -16
      Quote: samarin1969
      Another 5 years will be "considering the possibility."

      Make it faster
    3. Altona
      Altona 10 January 2019 09: 13
      +8
      Quote: samarin1969
      "... together with Rostec we are considering the possibility of setting up our own production of the required composites."

      ------------------------
      And Chubais with his "nana" is again on the sidelines, he does not touch such technologies in any way, as well as Medvedev's Skolkovo.
  3. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 10 January 2019 06: 37
    +3
    Composite production is also in Russia ... And the sanction pressure will only increase ... And when concluding contracts for the supply of anything, it is necessary to take this into account ...
    1. Hole puncher
      Hole puncher 10 January 2019 06: 45
      +8
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      Composite production is also in Russia ...

      So what? It's like declaring that "there is steel production in Russia ...", but the fact that steel is different in characteristics do not care? Carbon fiber is different too.
      1. Herman 4223
        Herman 4223 10 January 2019 07: 08
        +8
        At least they should have provided an alternative with their composites. For five years, for five years our country has been nightmare with sanctions, restrictions, and other tricks. Even if the desired grade of composite was not even needed to be created, in our country one aircraft factory would be useful in any way.
        1. Stas157
          Stas157 10 January 2019 07: 18
          +5
          If the Japanese do not give a composite - abandon the Japanese cars (Koreans will be happy). And this is a big market, big money! Stop selling crab to Japan (let pollock eat in fish restaurants). Threaten to side with China in all disputes between China and Japan.
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 10 January 2019 07: 25
            +4
            Quote: Stas157

            If the Japanese do not give a composite - abandon Japanese cars

            But it’s right, it is necessary for the Far East to stand on its hind legs and begin to smash the local administrations, block railway and airports.
            Well done Stasik, just handsome. What is not an offer is gold. You need the government, instead of Putin.
            1. Stas157
              Stas157 10 January 2019 08: 27
              +5
              Quote: Alexander Romanov
              it is necessary that the Far East stand on its hind legs and begin to smash

              Except you, Sanya, no one will get up there. Moscow riot police have already dealt with fans of the right-handed right-wingers. For expensive, new Japanese cars, there will be no such hype, especially since there is a cheaper alternative (Koreans).
              Quote: Consultant
              Did you agree with the crab?

              From the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, where does it mainly come from? Yes, Crab doesn't mind! Maybe a barbaric, criminal catch will decrease slightly.
              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 10 January 2019 08: 50
                -5
                Quote: Stas157
                Except you, Sanya, no one will get up there.

                Vladivostok, about 250 thousand Japanese women, Khabarovsk still 150 thousand, Komsomolsk in the area 70 thousand. I won’t count further. It is one thing to raise duties, another thing to ban. And the Moscow riot police will not help.
                Quote: Stas157
                especially since there is a cheaper alternative (Koreans)

                We have very few Koreans here, mostly new left-handed drivers. Both in quality and comfort, they are far from japs. AvtoVAZ our fiery pioneer greetings.
                Stas a secret, say you bought yourself a Korean yes wink
                1. Stas157
                  Stas157 10 January 2019 08: 57
                  +4
                  Quote: Alexander Romanov
                  Stas a secret, say you bought yourself a Korean yes

                  Well, if a secret, I have a Korean.
                  1. Alexander Romanov
                    Alexander Romanov 10 January 2019 09: 02
                    -2
                    Quote: Stas157
                    Well, if a secret, I have a Korean.

                    But what about the Volga, and Moskvich, also a party. Tyzh ideny angry As you look into the eyes of the party, rolling on the capitalist trash. They are the imperialists Stas
                    1. Stas157
                      Stas157 10 January 2019 09: 16
                      +7
                      Quote: Alexander Romanov
                      But what about the Volga, and Moskvich, also a party. Tyzh ideny

                      No, I'm just adequate. And you, Sanya, a kitchen jester, a joker-mocker, in a good way. Without people like you, you're bored with the company!)))
                      1. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 10 January 2019 09: 27
                        -2
                        Quote: Stas157
                        No, I'm just adequate.

                        Adequate buys japa wink
                        Quote: Stas157
                        . And you, Sanya, a kitchen jester, a joker-mocker, in a good way

                        Buy from me the best complete works of Vladimir Ilyich
                        Quote: Stas157
                        Without people like you, you're bored with the company!)))

                        Pour in
            2. Simple
              Simple 10 January 2019 12: 45
              +1
              Sanya, well, at least once in my life there will be a "not Japanese".
              Just imagine the prospects!
              wassat
              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 10 January 2019 12: 50
                -1
                Quote: Simple
                Just imagine the prospects!

                He was sitting in our car when the gaits were fined. Normal guys, I ask them - how Priora, normal? One asks me-you now decided to make fun laughing I say yes no just asked. In short, from Zhigulevsky only beer!
                1. Simple
                  Simple 10 January 2019 13: 01
                  +1
                  Now we can cheaply that something German (diesel wassat ) to buy.

                  Our grandmother got everyone with her ecology.
                  In the states of Volkswagen, the concern was "heated" on the headstock.
                  Now the government has decided to win back on us.
                  Well, as usual in general.
                  Moreover, measurements were taken in a city where "large" indicators of contamination wassat air in one apartment. Then, gas heating was turned on in the same apartment (it should be noted, here it is strictly checked with gas appliances). As a result, the parameters jumped several times. negative
                  1. Alexander Romanov
                    Alexander Romanov 10 January 2019 13: 08
                    -4
                    Quote: Simple
                    Now we can cheaply buy something German (diesel).

                    Is it cheap?
          2. Consultant
            Consultant 10 January 2019 07: 26
            -7
            Quote: Stas157
            Stop Selling Japan Crab

            Did you agree with the crab? wink

            Quote: Stas157
            let pollock eat in fish restaurants

            They eat fugues there. Bach belay
        2. Tarhan
          Tarhan 10 January 2019 12: 09
          -2
          It was five years, five years our country has been nightmare by sanctions, restrictions, and other tricks.

          And what just so nightmare? What sanctions, so unexpectedly, fell from the sky? It was necessary to foresee when political decisions were made.

          That when they took away Crimea and sent troops to the Donbass, they thought there would be international applause and loans with new technologies, as a reward, would overwhelm the whole country. And now they are groaning.
          1. Herman 4223
            Herman 4223 10 January 2019 19: 37
            0
            They’ve taken for you, but returned for us.
  4. 210ox
    210ox 10 January 2019 06: 37
    +1
    That's right, you need to look for solutions .. First, through China and third countries, while simultaneously setting up production with us.
    1. bessmertniy
      bessmertniy 10 January 2019 08: 53
      -2
      It is necessary to change the guidelines of international cooperation of the country so as not to depend on the eccentric presidents and governments of the states that impose sanctions on us. hi
      1. New Year day
        New Year day 10 January 2019 09: 57
        +3
        Quote: bessmertniy
        It is necessary to change the guidelines of the country's international cooperation

        whom to whom to change in this case?
        Aviastar-SP JSC makes:
        - fuselage panels,
        - tail compartments of the fuselage,
        - doors and hatches,
        - metal parts of the wing and plumage,
        - Performs tail assembly.
    2. donavi49
      donavi49 10 January 2019 09: 17
      +6
      Well, so China itself buys there. If the fact of resale is revealed, sales to China will be closed. He won’t do that.

      Own production:
      - technology, that is, top materials were laid in the aircraft itself (US resin - fiber from Japan - in the assembly = this is the greatest efficiency, strength, resource life). It’s simply impossible to achieve such technologies right away. These are many years (when, again, market leaders will have better materials) work.

      - certification, this is certified material. Creating your own - the entire certification process (2-3 of the year) - until the basic material is certified, no work will be done on certification of the aircraft. That is, at once + 5 years only for certification. And without a certificate of non-commercial transport.

      - calculations, again another material = other strength / resource characteristics. It is possible that the reserve from the tops of the market to the domestic lacking analogues is not enough and the wing will have to be redone.

      - aluminum wing = zero sense of the aircraft, even in the domestic market. For the flight to the Watermelon / Boeing flight is simply more cost-effective, without even taking on children's problems, + 200-500% downtime on the service and more.
      1. barsuk
        barsuk 10 January 2019 10: 16
        0
        In short scribe letaku)
  5. depressant
    depressant 10 January 2019 06: 38
    +9
    What were you thinking about when the need for diversification was announced? Or is a good kick better than a good wish? You won’t get enough of all the pendels!
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 10 January 2019 06: 42
      -14
      Quote: depressant

      What were you thinking when the need for diversification was announced?

      And try to replace everything right away, can you? Or for you to build a bunch of factories that two fingers on the asphalt
      1. Hole puncher
        Hole puncher 10 January 2019 06: 51
        +4
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        Or for you to build a bunch of factories that two fingers on the asphalt

        For the production of high-strength carbon fiber, a well-developed chemical industry is needed, and the technology of its production itself. From nowhere it does not appear.
      2. Herman 4223
        Herman 4223 10 January 2019 06: 59
        +6
        If there was a will, it’s possible to build, for five years now, under sanctions, such tricks had to be calculated, and the most important thing is that it stirs to do something, the opposite will cost more, will threaten to disrupt expensive contracts, ruin existing enterprises of enterprises. Recently, the Americans blocked a similar incident sales of aircraft to Iran because there are 10% of American products on the plane.
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 10 January 2019 07: 07
          -9
          Quote: Herman 4223
          If there was a will, it’s possible to build

          Well built, in factories that need hundreds, who will work? Specialists where to get ???? Why do you have to build a newsstand and a factory is the same thing ???
          1. Herman 4223
            Herman 4223 10 January 2019 07: 21
            +1
            Oh, and where did the USSR fill specialists when industry was built in the country? And China? Probably taught somewhere. These are all excuses and not pretty stucco, if you want to do everything you can, but water does not flow under a lying stone.
            1. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov 10 January 2019 07: 22
              -5
              Quote: Herman 4223

              Oh, and where did the USSR fill specialists when industry was built in the country?

              He grew up not in a year or in five years. It is only on the site they demand now and immediately.
              1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Hole puncher
              Hole puncher 10 January 2019 07: 29
              +4
              Quote: Herman 4223
              Oh, and where did the USSR fill specialists when industry was built in the country?

              In the USA and Germany.
            3. Corn
              Corn 10 January 2019 07: 52
              +4
              Quote: Herman 4223
              Nashol USSR when industry built in the country

              Mainly in the USA, Canada, Germany, Central European countries.
              Quote: Herman 4223
              What about China?
              From the USSR, then the USA, it was American business that caused the Chinese economic miracle.
              Quote: Herman 4223
              with the desire to do everything
              probably from ** vna and sticks it is really possible to make a wing for airplanes, but I personally didn’t dare fly on it.
            4. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 10 January 2019 10: 52
              +1
              Quote: Herman 4223
              Oh, and where did the USSR fill specialists when industry was built in the country?

              I can tell you where. Here is a list of existing agreements on technical assistance for the People's Commissariat of Industry of the USSR for 1934:
              Italy RIV - 1st State Bearing Plant (bearings)
              USA Ford - Automobile them. Molotov in Gorky (cars)
              England BSA - Moscow Bicycle Plant (bicycles)
              Germany Demag - Central Bureau of Heavy Engineering (CBTM) (cranes and hoisting devices)
              Germany Demag - CBTM (rolling mills)
              Switzerland Sulzer - Soyuzizel (diesel)
              Germany Man - Kolomna Plant (diesel)
              Germany Erhard and Semmer - Voskhim (compressor)
              Germany Stock - plant them. Kalinin (twist drills)
              Germany Krupp - Special Steel (quality steels)
              England Taylor - Trubostal (seamless wheels)
              USA Coppers - Giprokoks (coke ovens)
              Germany Demag - Magnitostroy (rolling shop)
              France French Aluminum Company - Glavaluminiy (construction of the Volkhov and Dnieper aluminum plants)
              Germany Miege - Zaporizhstal (electric furnaces)
              Germany Mitke - Gintsvetmet (Faynzink)
              England Metro-Vickers - WET (high-power turbine and electrical engineering)
              Switzerland Scintilla - Electrical Plant (Magneto)
              USA Autolight - Electrical Plant (electrical equipment for automotive tractors)
              Italy Omodeo - Hydroelectric Project
              Sweden Lubeck - Battery Trust (Alkaline Batteries)
              USA Nitrogen - Soyuzazot (ammonia plants)
              Germany Ude - Soyuzazot (nitric acid, montan, nitrate, methanol, ammonium nitrate)
              Norway Electrokemiska - Special steel (electrodes)
              Italy Eternit - Soyuzasbest (asbestos-cement pipes)
              France Schlumberger - GAMES (electrical intelligence)
              USA Curtis Wright - Aircraft Trust (Aircraft Motors)
              Fiat Italy - Plant No. 120 (Foundry Aircraft Plant)
              Italy Ansaldo - factory "Bolshevik" (autofretage and lane guns)
              USA Sperry - Electrical Plant (specialty)
              Germany Deschmag - Central Design Bureau of Shipbuilding (TsKBS) (shipbuilding)
              Italy Ansaldo - TsKBS (shipbuilding)
              Germany Bauer - TsKBS (marine shipbuilding)
            5. Vadim237
              Vadim237 10 January 2019 12: 32
              -1
              Very few people worked on composites in the USSR.
          2. ultra
            ultra 10 January 2019 12: 18
            +2
            The correct question is “Where to get it?” Only this and many others need to be asked by the current government, which has been at the helm for 19 years and where are the results?
  6. rayruav
    rayruav 10 January 2019 06: 44
    +4
    all the time all the bookmarks that were constantly doing 1993
    1. rocket757
      rocket757 10 January 2019 07: 04
      +8
      Quote: rayruav
      all the time all the bookmarks that were constantly doing 1993

      Okay, we’ve done bookmarks before .... but what prevented us from starting to correct, to restore the destroyed not when the region became NECESSARY, but to think in advance.
      Such a topic as planning, perspective and everything that goes with it, is completely unfamiliar to our top managers, "generals" from the industry ??? Or everyone was soothed with mantras, like our former defense minister, furniture maker / tax officer ..... abroad will help us !!!
      HELPED ???
      1. AUL
        AUL 10 January 2019 07: 17
        +1
        Quote: rocket757
        . but what prevented us from starting to correct, to restore the destroyed not when the region became NECESSARY, but to think in advance.
        Such a topic as planning, perspective and everything related to our top managers, "generals" from the industry, is completely unfamiliar ???

        So we do not have enough effective managers! wassat
        1. rocket757
          rocket757 10 January 2019 07: 49
          +2
          Quote: AUL
          So we do not have enough effective managers!

          Those. managers we have to fig and more, the only question is their effectiveness ???
          If so. The country, these are not effective, robbed very effectively!
  7. Stoler
    Stoler 10 January 2019 06: 44
    +1
    Great and powerful Russian aircraft industry fool
  8. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 10 January 2019 06: 45
    +15
    Pomnitsa, there were exclamations that what for us is agriculture, what for us is industry - the West will give all this (or sell it) ... Nu-nu wassat ... Not so looked at the owner and voila - sanctions (I will not feed for three days wassat ) ...
    Taka, Panimash Li, Lyubou lol
    But the first flew into space .... what And now we can’t make a plane request But in jeans and with cuds ... fool
  9. afrikanez
    afrikanez 10 January 2019 06: 47
    +1
    When will we finally learn to plan clearly, without taking into account any help? Well, for that, do not take everywhere the problems with the supply of components from somewhere. negative
    1. Maki Avellevich
      Maki Avellevich 10 January 2019 07: 30
      +1
      Quote: afrikanez
      When will we finally learn to plan clearly, without taking into account any help? Well, for that, do not take everywhere the problems with the supply of components from somewhere.

      today everywhere, almost any production uses components purchased in different countries.
      it is necessary not to try to produce a 100% component at home but to do it so that when it is necessary to purchase something it would be where.
      and wrapped with a smile.
    2. depressant
      depressant 10 January 2019 08: 13
      0
      afrikanez, there was a conversation a few years ago about the need to introduce planning, following the example of the USSR State Planning Commission, highlighting the most important areas as priority ones. How much easier it would be to plan now compared to the Union, taking into account modern digital technology! So either someone’s brains were not enough, or fear arose that everyone’s stupidity would be visible, or it would become more difficult to steal.
  10. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 10 January 2019 06: 50
    -1
    Russia is different in that in any even seemingly hopeless situation, it finds not only a way out, but also manages to master a new one. On the other hand, of course, dependence on foreign suppliers under sanction pressure creates problems in production. At the same time, Americans are quietly buying titanium, rocket engines, etc. from us.
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 10 January 2019 07: 13
      +4
      Quote: rotmistr60
      At the same time, Americans are quietly buying titanium, rocket engines, etc. from us.

      with permission from co-producer Pratt & Whitney. Rogozin's slogans about trampolines, such slogans ...
  11. rocket757
    rocket757 10 January 2019 06: 56
    +3
    Unpleasant, but this is just another milestone that must be overcome!
    Now let's see if there are "brains" in the country, what kind of responsible, national business it is ???
    It is clear that if the state had not been wasted on outright thieving nonsense, including and headed by a red hell and others like him who have achievements of micro-nano size, but babosiks do not steal on a micro scale !!! could organize, create a lot of things, the most necessary.
    The boom is hoping that extreme need will make WORK with due zeal and skill! Boom to hope !!!
    1. Aleks2048
      Aleks2048 10 January 2019 07: 36
      +2
      Unpleasant, but this is just another milestone that must be overcome!

      Here to these words absolutely agree with you. About the cut of the dough in Rosnano, it’s partially there and the cut is going on, but science is moving a bit, it’s good even in that form, and soon it will be more difficult to find a scientist in the Russian Federation than a black cat in a dark room ...
      Rђ RІRѕS,
      The boom is hoping that extreme need will make WORK with due zeal and skill!

      I do not agree. There is no way to fix the situation with any hard work if the rules are enforced to push our products out of the market. It is necessary to change the rules, but this is not a question for the manufacturer, but for the Russian government. am
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 10 January 2019 08: 14
        +1
        Quote: Alex2048
        but science is moving a bit

        Several scientists / experts, whom I trust a lot more than everyone else, offer clear criteria for evaluating scientific and other activities - and give me a list of YOUR achievements !!! Another added - Let’s balance, YOUR COSTS versus YOUR ACHIEVEMENTS !!!
        These people cannot be accused of narrow-mindedness and local interest! Therefore, their assertion that "stirring" and real scientific and technical, technological achievements we still have only in industry, scientific and production centers! Their life makes them WORK, CREATE, otherwise they fall behind and lose EVERYTHING!
        Quote: Alex2048
        but this is not a question for the manufacturer, but for the government of the Russian Federation.

        This is all right, I send all claims to the highest, ruling, owning everything and everything, in our country!
        1. New Year day
          New Year day 10 January 2019 09: 49
          +6
          Quote: rocket757
          This is all right, I send all claims to the highest, ruling, owning everything and everything, in our country!

          The time for reforms has been lost, super profits from high oil prices in the 2014s were wasted on Olympiads and championships. The government does not want to carry out reforms. There would be such a desire - she would have long sought opportunities and means. In XNUMX, on the wave of patriotic upsurge, there were opportunities for quick mobilization of society, there was trust in the authorities, due to which reforms could be carried out. The authorities did not take advantage of this. The economic and political system of Russia is in an "inoperable" state. That is, when attempts at large-scale changes cause an acute political and economic crisis, loss of control, the situation getting out of control and the formation of a full-fledged revolutionary situation.
          And why does the government need this? am
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 10 January 2019 12: 40
            -2
            You better deal with medicine and patients, but do not meddle in macroeconomics too complicated - there are many contradictions in it - "revolutionary situation"
            1. New Year day
              New Year day 10 January 2019 12: 43
              +3
              What time! So just because of the material condition of patients and hospitals you are thinking about macroeconomics.
              Or, do you think, the presence of 1 antibiotic in the department brings joy and confidence in today?
              1. Vadim237
                Vadim237 10 January 2019 21: 42
                -1
                Allocate money to everyone, decently - but someone steals it on the way or simply does not fulfill its duties.
    2. New Year day
      New Year day 10 January 2019 09: 51
      +2
      Quote: rocket757
      The boom is hoping that extreme need will make WORK with due zeal and skill!

      Do you think that Medvedev will roll up his sleeves and start working? Hard to believe
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 10 January 2019 10: 25
        +4
        Quote: Silvestr
        Do you think that Medvedev will roll up his sleeves and start working?

        The iPhone button-press is not considered in any way except for a shovel and large snowdrifts, for all his ban-n-nd-team! I would have used the very top ones too, but no one is ready until no one is ready to take such a step, it’s really Schaub about the case. That sho will have to play the topic with the same cards, only completely beaten need to be thrown off!
        Quote: Silvestr
        The economic and political system of Russia is in an "inoperable" state.

        Those who move, support the working industry, somehow they work, and for themselves, too !!! very close to the authorities, from the uppermost ..... for them, braking, stomping on the spot, although this is not death, the wealth --- they saved up quite a bit, but further movement can be sharply inhibited, or even stopped altogether .
        I do not hope for their responsibility, statehood, etc., the instinct of self-preservation just has to work. Not all fools.
        In short, there are great doubts about our prospects, but there is still some hope .... absolutely without it.
        1. New Year day
          New Year day 10 January 2019 12: 33
          +3
          I agree with you! Hope dies last.
      2. Vadim237
        Vadim237 10 January 2019 12: 42
        -1
        But Medvedev does not build factories and does not seek sales markets, and also he does not develop products.
        1. rocket757
          rocket757 10 January 2019 14: 23
          +1
          The country and all that it has is a CREATING PEOPLE, CREATING EVERYTHING AND EVERYTHING!
          For some people, our upper taxis are something that is archival, only I absolutely agree with those FIGURES who claim to have proved that those who are now upstairs do not lead our country to development and restoration. With them, stomping on the spot, our limit .... by the way, it is becoming more difficult for people from them to live, and this is a fact that try to refute!
          It makes no sense to bring charges, figs with them, but now it’s time for them to give way to those who CAN work as they should.
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 10 January 2019 21: 44
            -1
            "It's time for them to give way to those who CAN work as they should." - Who is this and where are they from?
            1. rocket757
              rocket757 11 January 2019 05: 13
              0
              Those who have the answer to the question- Show a list of YOUR achievements.
  12. jeka424
    jeka424 10 January 2019 06: 56
    +2
    But as the most advertised. Another 20 years will be built then it will become obsolete
  13. Hole puncher
    Hole puncher 10 January 2019 06: 58
    +5
    The “plan B” is also considered, which is the use of metals as materials for creating a wing instead of “composites”.

    Then the whole advantage of the MS-21 is lost and its fate will be at the level of the Superjet.
  14. Strashila
    Strashila 10 January 2019 06: 58
    +6
    Actually, what happened, and the expected event happened more than once confirmed by the West, they can not be trusted not only words, but also contracts. The term free market is a utopia, more than once confirmed in practice. I remember in the 90s of the last century, the Iskra plant in Krasnoyarsk then entered the world market with its satellite communications systems, the issue of competition about which they like to talk in the West was simply solved by banning the sale of these products in the West, that’s all the competition. So, according to the situation with the MS-21 or anything new, everything is expected. And about the pleasant, the situation itself is a confirmation in contrast to the statements of the West, the Russian economy and technologies are not so backward if they can take off in foreign markets only with the help of prohibitions, not only in the military-industrial complex, but also in the civilian segment.
  15. Dazdranagon
    Dazdranagon 10 January 2019 07: 10
    -2
    The superjet is already under sanctions, but this one wasn’t even built ... You can’t climb a tree and not tear it off ... am
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 10 January 2019 09: 20
      +4
      Well, there’s still a lot of things you can ban by sanctions.
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 10 January 2019 12: 43
      0
      Already the third instance is being completed - for certification of airworthiness.
  16. Lighten
    Lighten 10 January 2019 07: 13
    0
    Very well. Finally, they will launch lines for the production of coal fiber and other plastics
    1. Hole puncher
      Hole puncher 10 January 2019 08: 58
      0
      Quote: Levius
      Very well. Finally, they will launch lines for the production of coal fiber and other plastics

      Is there a production technology for this?
    2. donavi49
      donavi49 10 January 2019 09: 57
      +2
      So already launched. You can go to the nearest household store or order both fibers and resins on the Internet. At home in the oven bake your MS-21 or atmospheric probe on Jupiter laughing . And the manufacturers there are 100500, including Made in Russia.

      I just find it difficult to explain, let's go to the electronics:
      in Russia do 65nm
      procure through reliable sanction-resistant channels 28nm
      14nm standard in the world
      a certain company - an industry leader is already doing 10нм and the Product has been calculated for this.
      revolutionary technology is coming that will give 5-7нм processes.

      Actually, you can return to 65 or 28нм. But for this you have to redo the entire product.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 10 January 2019 12: 46
        0
        It seems like Russian companies manufacturing 28nm processors are located in Taiwan.
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 10 January 2019 12: 53
          +2
          Well, I wrote:
          RF - 65nm base = guaranteed
          Sanction-resistant channel - 28нм, but if very, very, very necessary, then it is possible to close. But this is even after SWIFT.

          World standard 14nm.

          Industry Leader Launches 10nm Chips.

          There is 7nm - already in serial samples.

          There is a revolutionary technology 5-nm, but so far only in operation.

          Designer (Yak-Irkut) - 10nm chips were laid in this analogy in his airplane. Given that 14nm - at the time of the start of sales will not be very relevant, and also on the horizon then there were 5-7нм.

          You can return at least 28nm, at least 65nm. But for this, a significant part of the assembly will have to be redone, because these products do not provide the originally laid down characteristics. And they will also lead to a partial or complete loss of the competitive advantage of the entire product.

          Well, something like that by analogy to make it easier.
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 10 January 2019 21: 49
            0
            Personally, I as a consumer do not care what technology transistors and microchips are made for - from 65 and below I do not care, the main thing is that the performance would be good. The smaller the element, the more vulnerable it is to static or stray currents.
    3. iouris
      iouris 10 January 2019 15: 20
      -1
      Quote: Levius
      Finally, production lines will be launched.

      Who needs them? The main thing is "profit", and in such a small market nothing will develop, because it is unprofitable.
  17. Sergey Pavlov
    Sergey Pavlov 10 January 2019 07: 17
    +2
    Well, here we are ... What industrial intelligence is doing, it would be necessary to buy / steal documentation and know-how from the Japanese on this topic. Otherwise, this colossal problem cannot be solved in a short time.
  18. Aleks2048
    Aleks2048 10 January 2019 07: 18
    0
    If the Russian Federation declares that in the sky of the Russian Federation, apart from aircraft, the owner of which is Russian at least 75%, there will be no foreign-made aircraft carrier, including their transit stay. And will also introduce some percentage share on goods turnover with countries using aircraft that have not been certified in the Russian Federation, the situation will not change. All these certification centers are only needed to push their own manufacturers and remove unfavorable competitors from the market.
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 10 January 2019 09: 22
      +1
      Well, are you ready to pay three times as much money for a ticket? Or five for a parcel?

      Without this, a company A having a Tu-204 will be forced to set prices at 200-250% of a company B having a Boeing / Watermelon. Just because such an efficiency of the aircraft. Well, or the prices will be the same - and 100-150% will pay the budget. That is, you too.
      1. Aleks2048
        Aleks2048 10 January 2019 11: 11
        0
        You understand that with the described policy this will not come to this and will end a week after such statements from the Russian Federation and the world will put a bolt on the United States.
        1. donavi49
          donavi49 10 January 2019 11: 49
          +3
          And if not? If the world says-well, Russia wants the scenario of the DPRK, well, let it. Plus, to compensate, the United States will sell purchases, say 70-80% of the Watermelons that went to the Russian Federation - to its vassals.

          Bluffing, you need to understand what happens if your opponent does not bluff.
          1. Aleks2048
            Aleks2048 10 January 2019 13: 05
            0
            And then nothing will happen the products of our aircraft industry as they didn’t take it and will not take it and get resources at a premium. What is it like?
  19. tlauicol
    tlauicol 10 January 2019 07: 32
    +2
    and without wings you can’t build? recourse
    1. New Year day
      New Year day 10 January 2019 09: 45
      +1
      Quote: Tlauicol
      and without wings you can’t build?

      you can build, you can’t fly hi
  20. Professor
    Professor 10 January 2019 07: 37
    +6
    The material of Kommersant says that the UAC (United Aircraft Corporation) is seeking a solution to the problem. In particular, together with Rostec, an opportunity is being considered to establish its own production of the necessary composites.

    Not so fast. Industrial carbon fiber and, most importantly, the "glue" to it is made by 2-3 bourgeois companies. It is not possible to catch up with them.

    However, in this case, the production of MS-21 will have to significantly shift in time. We are also considering “plan B”, which consists of using metals as materials to create a wing instead of “composites”.

    But I believe in it. However, the aircraft will lose in its performance characteristics.

    There is no alternative to international cooperation today.
    https://www.statista.com/statistics/380549/leading-countries-by-carbon-fiber-production-capacity/
  21. irazum
    irazum 10 January 2019 07: 43
    -2
    Do we need civil aircraft of our own production if we cannot produce domestic components for them? The export potential tends to zero, our airlines are more willing to use Boeing and Airbus, they pay attention to domestic products only when the government turns on the "administrative resource" or scares them. Do you need all this?
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 10 January 2019 12: 52
      0
      Of course, we can produce - just open production, small parts for - for the future 1000 aircraft, no one will, in view of the loss-making of this production. They will produce 20–30 planes a year, and these productions will release all the little things for them in one month — what will they do for the remaining 11 months?
  22. UMA-UMA
    UMA-UMA 10 January 2019 08: 10
    +3
    Such a great country, but there are no necessary composites. It’s strange. But seriously, the sanctions are already in their fifth year, and only the state holding has lit up on the key part of the plane, the wing - there is no material. This is of course a panorama. Own production is not deployed, it is too difficult for them, and it will take time. Apparently we will be left without a medium-haul. Sorry, the car was promising.
  23. spektr9
    spektr9 10 January 2019 08: 15
    +1
    So, whoever wrote about the obsolete that 334 in a previous article, so ms-21 flew away under sanctions
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 10 January 2019 12: 53
      -1
      Instead of Tu 334, there will now be Il 114.
      1. spektr9
        spektr9 10 January 2019 12: 55
        +1
        Instead of Tu 334, there will now be Il 114.

        Decided to produce even more obsolete, standing ovation
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 10 January 2019 21: 51
          0
          For him, at least, our engines are.
  24. trophy
    trophy 10 January 2019 08: 21
    +10
    Well, how so !? Sanctions practically do not work and harm only the sanctioners themselves! And import substitution is our all the last 5 years! Well, how so !?
    1. New Year day
      New Year day 10 January 2019 09: 43
      +2
      Quote: Trofim
      Well, how so !?

      a question that supporters of the current course will not like
    2. Campanella
      Campanella 10 January 2019 10: 37
      +1
      And like this! If necessary, it is possible to deceive the people, giving wishful thinking.
      The leadership of Russia through long sanctions led to an understanding of the need to produce its own equipment, but modern technology was not available to our industry.
      Because there is no fundamental science, there is no branch science and there is no technological modern equipment ..... Lawyers are at the helm, consider the same "effective" managers!
  25. Alexey-74
    Alexey-74 10 January 2019 08: 51
    0
    As one would expect, we are paying for our dependence on imported technologies, which we are not yet able to create.
  26. Homegoblin
    Homegoblin 10 January 2019 08: 59
    +1
    And let's wait for comments from people who are aware of work on the MS-21? ... and that is, the opinion is not so sucks as it is written in the "merchant" .... winked
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 10 January 2019 09: 26
      +6
      The wing is made by Aerocomposite JSC, but the resins are purchased in the USA, and the fiber in Japan. The MS-21 wing was designed for this pair, which gives out high operational and strength characteristics. Anyhow, what kind of fiber of the before last generation and resin - will give a different result = that is, most likely there will not be enough reserve and you will have to redo the wing. Or make it composite panels (that is, partially composite).

      This is the price - for the innovation and competitive advantage inherent in the project, but industry leaders in focusing on companies.
  27. Bypassed
    Bypassed 10 January 2019 09: 21
    0
    Belarusian-Chinese Park "Great Stone". The resident is the Composite Structures company. Among the founders, German companies are world leaders in the production of equipment and the composite products themselves.
    EnergyEfficiencyInvest-Eurasia GmbH (EnergyEurasia)
    Dieffenbacher System-Automation GmbH
    What is the problem? We open an order for production and you will be happy.
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 10 January 2019 09: 47
      0
      Do they produce fiber and resin, which will give the desired strength at a certain layer weight? Not? Then it makes sense to turn to them. There is a specific wing - which was made for a specific fiber and resin (industry leaders) - which made it possible to obtain a competitive advantage (it is easier to wing with a smaller profile - high strength and with a good resource). Other materials (if they do not go to the structural reserve) = new wing.
      1. Bypassed
        Bypassed 10 January 2019 14: 00
        +1
        Absolutely complete ignorance of the technological capabilities and resources of such an agrarian country as Belarus, which has satellites and assembles new turnkey missile systems in two years. This company already cooperates with enterprises of the republic that produce chemical fibers. You give an order - in six months you will receive the necessary new fiber with technical documentation. Next to "Composite Structures" is the Minsk Aircraft Repair Plant. in the exit for takeoff. on which "Mriya" can sit. Material is secondary. The company has the most modern equipment and a scientific center. You won't buy this equipment - sanctions.
  28. Operator
    Operator 10 January 2019 09: 22
    0
    Import substitution is necessary, and not wagging the tongue.
    1. New Year day
      New Year day 10 January 2019 09: 42
      +2
      Quote: Operator
      Import substitution is necessary, and not wagging the tongue.

      so it is NECESSARY to work, and when to fuss?
      Did you manage to eliminate dependence on Nikolaev "Zarya"? And already 5 years have passed.
  29. New Year day
    New Year day 10 January 2019 09: 38
    +2
    not only the MS-21 is crushing. By the way, the long-range MS-21 flies for lack of its own on American Pratt & Whitney engines.. So the problem is not only in the wing.
    The United States has blocked the sale of Russian Sukhoi Superjet 100 (SSJ-100) Russian short-haul passenger aircraft to Iran. In the production of the SSJ-100, more than 22% of US-made parts are used. According to company estimates, the production of the SSJ-100 is cost-effective when selling at least 30–32 conventional liners per year. And five more - in VIP configuration. In 2018, only 26 aircraft were manufactured.
    The problem concerns not only the SSJ-100. So, the combat training Yak-2010, which was adopted in 130, is even more dependent on Western Europe, in the cooperation with which it was made.
    1. Cook
      Cook 10 January 2019 10: 29
      0
      And what, in Iran, the light converged wedge, or what? Thailand and Indonesia were not banned from delivering, as were Mexico and Ireland. I think that even without Iran, which by the way also twists the tail very much, there will be plenty of orders. There AFL, another hundred SSJ ordered, for the development of regional transport. Like it or not, 170 aircraft have already been released ...
      1. New Year day
        New Year day 10 January 2019 11: 30
        +2
        The light did not converge in Iran. But from this American components will not become less
        1. Cook
          Cook 10 January 2019 11: 44
          0
          Why is this? As far as I know, APU is already being changed to Russian. They will also put drive generators and hydraulic pumps, and the share of American components will fall. I do not see any particular problems here. the Americans, as well as for the GSS, in the same way hinder the supply of Airbus to Iran. Because they are also full of American-made equipment. And by the way, for a large number of equipment items, there are options from several suppliers.
  30. sebur
    sebur 10 January 2019 09: 50
    0
    Quote: Levius
    Very well. Finally, they will launch lines for the production of coal fiber and other plastics

    Sometimes it's better to keep silent
    1. Cook
      Cook 10 January 2019 10: 15
      -1
      I would, with great caution, relate to publications in Kommersant. Sources of information, they traditionally do not disclose. I don’t think that everything is so bad, at least neither the KLA nor the government see any special problems in organizing the mass production of the MC21. And yes, it still needs to be certified.
      1. Cook
        Cook 10 January 2019 10: 30
        +1
        Here by the way, TASS reports:
        MOSCOW, January 10. / TASS /. The United Aircraft Corporation has not refused and does not plan to abandon the use of composite materials in the wing structure of the MS-21 airliner. This was reported to TASS in the press service of the UAC.
  31. ZVS
    ZVS 10 January 2019 10: 10
    +2
    It turns out that Russia does not know how to produce composite materials ?! And what do our Nobel laureates with Chubais do in the Thieves Valley?
    1. Ros 56
      Ros 56 10 January 2019 10: 53
      +1
      We all know how, look at the Su-57, look at the Mi-26 blades. It's not about skill, it's about people.
      1. spektr9
        spektr9 10 January 2019 11: 03
        0
        We all know how, look at the Su-57, look at the Mi-26 blades. It's not about skill, it's about people.

        Is this why we are collecting su-57 and mi-26 in single copies?
        1. Ros 56
          Ros 56 10 January 2019 11: 09
          +1
          It's not the quantity, but the technology, and we have them. I say again: the matter is in the system, the matter is in people, in the government, which is neither fish nor meat. Which does not know a damn where to go, what to do first, what to postpone for later. Only talk about the last car and no systemic matters.
  32. Victor1
    Victor1 10 January 2019 10: 24
    +1
    Il114, Tu334, Tu214, Il96 modified versions of these aircraft must be made,
    Well, MC21 until better times, until we ourselves begin to make the necessary materials.
    Replace airplanes and Boeing with our aircraft.
    Is it ineffective? but because of such "efficiency" we will generally lose aircraft construction.

    Well, in response to the sanctions, cut off the supply of titanium parts for the Boeing and the airbus, do not care that they will eventually find measurement from others, but they will sit on their ass for a year.
    Also break off relations on the ISS and separate your segment from the "international" one.
    That would be a blow to the nose, albeit partially to the detriment of themselves, but sooner or later they will still refuse our services, and you can throw problems at them in advance, let them feel the "sanctions".

    The bureaucrats, the oligarchs and other friends of Putin are turning billions, they would be a little pressed out for the needs of aviation and the state ..
    But the Kremlin will not agree to this, most likely they will go to the West to lick their ass, than the "respected" parasites will invest at least a penny of money. They will die themselves, but they will not invest a dime on the needs of the country.
  33. Campanella
    Campanella 10 January 2019 10: 29
    +2
    The situation in aviation clearly shows the state of Russian industry and science! Thanks to the gentlemen for the reforming rulers!
    Before optimized.
  34. egsp
    egsp 10 January 2019 10: 39
    +2
    It has long been clear that no one will give us anything and they will crush us. As long as the world is ruled by the dollar, it will be so. And why do we need "rusnano" if it is impossible to apply its developments (if they exist, of course). The invisible RED hand of the market should be in prison.
    "Own" (as they say) can not be handed over, but simply removed from business.
  35. Ros 56
    Ros 56 10 January 2019 10: 50
    +2
    How is titanium for Boeing doing? Is everything okay, do we supply? I would like to take someone, but put a dumb little head against the wall to enlighten thoughts.
  36. prior
    prior 10 January 2019 10: 57
    +3
    Favorite Russian occupation - running a rake received another confirmation.
    Only its production will ensure independence.
    Games in cooperation with international cheaters are always downloaded with one pose - knee-elbow.
  37. Berkut24
    Berkut24 10 January 2019 11: 03
    +1
    Oh, what is it "Kommersant" did not publish the second half of the article, where the responsible persons said that this is nonsense?
  38. Sunder
    Sunder 10 January 2019 11: 32
    0
    См. http://tcj.ru/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/2015-06-50-53-neftehimia-uglevolokno-suver.pdf
    There is a possible explanation
  39. Evil 55
    Evil 55 10 January 2019 12: 14
    0
    Well, this is a natural continuation of the anti-Russian hysteria .. In the "Superjet" more than 10% of the components are made by the hands of Latinos in the United States .. On closer examination, the Russians in that plane will only have the crew. I would not be surprised if the design of the MS-21 was also oriented towards "foreign" cooperation.
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 10 January 2019 12: 56
      +1
      More than 30% of foreign at the start, including engines. Then they will reduce. Here are the main partners.
  40. Ratmir_Ryazan
    Ratmir_Ryazan 10 January 2019 12: 25
    0
    They started moving only after the supply of materials to the West and Japan was stopped, sadly, this should be expected.

    There is only one way out - to establish our own production of composites. This is a strategic material for the aircraft industry.

    As far as I know, composites are also used in new combat aircraft. Is it interesting for military aircraft that we also buy composites in the USA and Japan?
  41. Waldemar
    Waldemar 10 January 2019 12: 42
    +1
    Instead of taking composites from the same Rosatom, they buy them in America. import remarkable
  42. cockroaches
    cockroaches 10 January 2019 12: 57
    0
    Quote: Ros 56
    How is titanium for Boeing doing? Is everything okay, do we supply? I would like to take someone, but put a dumb little head against the wall to enlighten thoughts.

    Not a problem, and then do not forget to personally explain to the Avisma workers that you need to tighten your belts. And then, in words, your whole ury patriotic gang has bombed the whole world and traveled on Armata.
    1. Rusj
      Rusj 10 January 2019 15: 11
      -1
      And what's wrong? And all the prowlers and liberals shout everything is gone! Only while here, from our trampoline of Amerikosy, space also has Hypersonic missile systems and so on. And our nuclear industry is the best in the world, from which the whole world is already 50 years behind, and much more can be listed. Lots of !!! And even without ARMATA on the T90 we are driving everyone and horror is catching up and Armata is for the future.
  43. iouris
    iouris 10 January 2019 12: 59
    +1
    Even the An-2 flies with an American engine.
  44. Vladimir Teplov
    Vladimir Teplov 10 January 2019 13: 02
    +2
    Well, all this was expected. It is not clear why this is not understood in the government? Grudinin was right, the government lives in a parallel world
  45. georggy
    georggy 10 January 2019 14: 52
    +2
    The problem isn't just about the SSJ-100. Thus, the Yak-2010 combat trainer put into service in 130 is even more dependent on Western Europe, in cooperation with which it was made. The promising long-range MS-21, which has not yet completed the test program, for lack of its own, flies on American Pratt & Whitney engines.
  46. Rusj
    Rusj 10 January 2019 15: 05
    0
    Amerikosy finished downs! Directly force us to the end all our production facilities to modernize and restore. They force us to force us to make technological breakthroughs in all sectors and kicks us into having all production cycles. Amerikosy do it yourself with SUPER POWER, like the USSR.
    1. GELEZNII_KAPUT
      GELEZNII_KAPUT 10 January 2019 15: 35
      0
      Quote: Rusj

      Amerikosy finished downs! Directly force us to the end all our production facilities to modernize and restore. They force us to force us to make technological breakthroughs in all sectors and kicks us into having all production cycles. Amerikosy do it yourself with SUPER POWER, like the USSR.

      We'll have to make a lot of work, in the 90s, we first killed the KHV (521) (chemical fiber plant) and the new ZSV plant (synthetic fiber plant).
  47. Old26
    Old26 10 January 2019 15: 43
    +2
    Quote: keeper03
    There must be an instant reaction - stop selling titaniumstop procurement watermelons и Boeing to domestic airlines (well, or increase duties by 50%)! angry Where is the support of the domestic manufacturer, Medvedev - are you there when you finish your destructive activity!?! am

    You are our wise. Deny is the only way out that you see? Well, the Americans will start buying titanium in China and we will fly out of this market and fly "like plywood over Paris." Stop buying Boeings and Airbuses? I would be in favor with both hands if there was something domestic on which to fly. And not in 5-10 years, but today. For on a business trip you need to fly today or in a week, and not in 10 years
    Raising duties is the same. The number of passenger sides will be reduced, but the problem will not be solved. It was necessary to do this all these years, and not work exclusively on your image. And the extreme here is not only Medvedev ...

    Quote: Olgovich
    Maybe the Chinese already have the necessary material?

    They say that the Chinese have a thread. But heavier and thicker. As for the quality - I do not know
  48. Paul Bayan
    Paul Bayan 10 January 2019 16: 04
    -2
    Sorry for the grayness ..... why foreign fiber in armature? I would come up with an anti-fiber example .....
  49. Awaz
    Awaz 10 January 2019 16: 15
    0
    here it’s not even a matter of sanctions .. They certainly affect the development of the aircraft, but the root cause of the failure is the public, which manages this and other failed and not very projects. Most likely, the subject with composites, the KLA is trying to justify its failure to meet deadlines.
    Here, talk to knowledgeable people ...
  50. Fevralsk. Morev
    Fevralsk. Morev 10 January 2019 16: 30
    0
    In Ukraine, I’ve gone too far, and here it’s called another breakthrough. Fifth year kind of sanctions, peppy reports on import substitution and such greetings. Extra evidence that the current regime is comprador and rotten through and through. There are no more explanations.