"Standard" battleships of the USA, Germany and England. German "Bayern" (h. 3)

201
Design and housing features





It must be said that designing Bayern type battleships set for the German ship builders an extremely difficult task of tying together the “horse and the quivering doe”.

On the one hand, it was necessary, if possible, to adhere to the size of the ships of the previous type, the Koenig-type battleships, and this requirement, oddly enough, was completely justified. The fact is that relatively recently the German fleet completed very expensive work to deepen and expand the fairways, anchorages, etc., including the Kiel Canal, but all of this was designed for the König geometric dimension battleships. Thus, a significant excess of these dimensions would lead to restrictions in the basing sites for new battleships. Let's not forget that for A. von Tirpitz it was extremely important not to inflate the cost of the battleships beyond what was needed - she was, I must say, impressed. Thus, it would be ideal to fit the new battleship in the dimensions of "Koenig" with a minimum increase in displacement.

But on the other hand, the two-bore 380-mm cannon turret was about twice as large as the two-gun 305-mm, and the muzzle energy of a fifteen-inch gun was about 62% more than that of the twelve-inch. Accordingly, the return was much more serious. In other words, the replacement of five 305-mm towers with four 380-mm required an increase in displacement, and in addition, the installation of much better reinforcements that would not allow the body to deform from firing the guns of the main caliber. And with all this in no case could not sacrifice protection!

In general, perhaps, we can say that the German shipbuilders coped with their task, if not to “excellent”, then to a solid four. The newest German superdownnouts turned out to be only slightly larger than König-type battleships: the Bayern hull was 4,7 meters longer and 0,5 meters wider, the board height exceeded those of König’s 0,53 meters. At the same time, the normal displacement increased by 2 750 tons and amounted to 28 530 t - and it was possible to achieve this at the expense of more complete lines of “Bayern”, its total completeness ratio was 0,623, while the equivalent indicator “König” was 0,592.

As for the strength of the hull, it was reinforced by the installation of two longitudinal bulkheads passing throughout the citadel. At the extremities, they were the supporting element of the turret structures, and in the middle of the hull they divided the engine and boiler rooms into compartments, and, together with two armored bulkheads, provided resistance to the bending of the hull on the wave. At the same time, they, together with the transverse bulkheads of turret structures, constituted a rigid foundation for perceiving the recoil of salvos of main-caliber guns. The rest of the hull design was created on the basis of typical Kaiser solutions fleet, but - with all-round lightening of weights. The latter was the subject of criticism by later researchers - for example, the well-known specialist of the Kaiser shipbuilding Erwin Shtrobush believed that the Bayern and Baden hulls cause concerns regarding the strength of the main ties.

The anti-torpedo defense of the German super-dreadnoughts was quite interesting. These ships had a double bottom only at the bottom level, but where it passed into the sides and up to the lower edge of the armor belt, there was nothing like that - only the sheathing of the board. However, behind the casing at a distance of 2,1 m (in the extremities this distance was less) there was a longitudinal bulkhead made of shipbuilding steel with a thickness of 8 mm. Its bottom rested on a double bottom, the top - closed with the bevel of the armored decks. The idea was that the torpedo landed on the side rather easily pierced it, but then the energy of the expanding gases was spent on filling the empty compartment, which was supposed to weaken the force of the explosion. Well, the main defense was located even further - at a distance 1,85 m from the bulkhead described above, there was a second one, made of 50 mm armor. The space between them was used as coal bunkers, which created an additional “defense line” - coal “braked” shrapnel fragments and 8-mm bulkheads, if the latter was also destroyed by an explosion, reducing the chances of breaking PTZ armor. At the same time, the Germans believed that 0,9 and coal provide the same protection as a steel bulkhead with a thickness of 25 mm. It was assumed that when fully filled with coal holes and intact waterproof bulkheads, the entry of a torpedo into the center of the Bayern hull would result in a total 1,5 degree roll.

Thus, the anti-torpedo protection of Bayer-type battleships was very powerful, but it also had a “weak link” - these were the rooms of traverse torpedo tubes of 600-mm caliber. They could not find a place in the citadel, so that they were located outside of it representing a large weakly protected compartments. Underwater damage in these areas automatically led to extensive flooding, since, due to the design features of the torpedo tubes and the equipment serving them, it was not possible to separate these compartments with watertight bulkheads.

A good illustration of this weakness was the detonation of the Russian mines of the battleships Bayern and Grosser Kurfürst during Operation Albion. “Grosser Kurfyurst” got a hole in the middle part of the hull, within the PTZ, which took 300 tons of water, and that was the end of his troubles. At the same time, the Bayern exploded on exactly the same mine in the area of ​​the nose section of the torpedo traversing apparatus — outside the citadel and its PTZ. Russian mine contained 115 kg of TNT, which in itself is not so much, but its destructive energy initiated an explosion of 12 compressed air cylinders, which resulted in destroyed bulkheads and flooded not only the torpedo tube section, but the nearby nasal compartment torpedo tubes.


"Bayern" after blasting on a mine, 1917


The battleship accepted 1 000 t of water, and it was necessary to level it with counter-flooding of the feed compartments - taking into account the latter, it received up to 1 500 t of water. The main systems of "Bayern" continued to function, and he could fire from the guns of the main caliber (which he immediately proved by suppressing Russian battery No. XXUMX with fire), in this respect the ship remained wave-capable, but the damage it received led to a critical loss of speed.

After the explosion, the battleship went to Tagalakht bay at the slightest speed, where it anchored to put a plaster on the hole, as well as reinforce the bulkheads, and all this was done, but subsequent attempts to pump out the water were unsuccessful. Then the 3 battleships of her squadron, including the Bayern and the Grosser Kurfürst, took to the sea - they went to Putsig to bunker, from where the "wounded" had to go to repair in Kiel.

The ships yielded only 11 nodes of the course, but it turned out that Bayern could not even withstand this — 1 an hour 20 minutes after the start of motion on it had to slow down. The water again entered the nasal compartments, and the main bulkhead, which withstands the water pressure, was bent on 20 mm. If she could not stand it, the spread of water inside the ship could become completely uncontrollable.

However, the reduction of the course did not give any effect - soon it had to be reduced again, and then, three hours after the start of the campaign, “Bayern” was forced to stop completely. In the end, the command became clear that they could not bring the super-dreadnought to Putsig and it was decided to return it to Tagalakht Bay, and on the way back Bayern could not go faster than the 4 nodes. Here he waited for a long repair. For two weeks the crew was engaged in reinforcement of the bulkheads - on top of all the seams were placed wooden bars, with a lining of elastic material, which were reinforced with numerous struts and wedges. Bulkhead holes were wedged and filled with cement, etc. And only after this, the battleship ventured to re-launch into the sea, while at the junction the ship barely held 7-10 nodes, the plaster was torn off, water poured into the partially drained compartments, but the ship commander decided not to interrupt the march, as reinforced bulkheads kept well, and even ventured to develop 13 nodes on the final leg of the route.

All of the above does not inspire much optimism in terms of the strength of Bayern hull structures. Of course, in Operation Albion, under the complete domination of the German fleet, he could be provided with the most “preferential” conditions for repairing damage, but there is no doubt that if the ship received such damage in a battle with the British fleet, it would cause his doom


Bayern in the dock. Mine exploded.


Again, it is interesting to compare the state of “Bayern” and “Lyuttsov”, which suffered similar injuries in the Battle of Jutland: as a result of two hits of 305-mm projectiles from Invincible, or, perhaps, Inflexible, all its nasal compartments ahead of the nasal the towers of the main caliber were flooded. The ship took on the order of 2 000 t water, and was forced to briefly reduce the speed to 3 nodes, but then recovered and could give 15 nodes for a long time. In the end, it was this damage that led the Lutz to death, but reading the descriptions did not leave the thought that in such conditions Bayern would have lasted even less.

Let us complete the description of the design features of Bayer-type battleships with one very extravagant solution. The fact is that on the super dreadnoughts of the second Reich, the Germans did not find the strength to give up so “necessary” means of warfare, like a ram bow. This was done at the direct insistence of A. von Tirpitz, who believed that the presence of a ram would give the crew of the ship a sense of confidence "in the dump". One can only wonder how such archaic views coexisted in one person, along with advanced views on the use of long-range naval artillery and other innovations.

Power plant


Bayern on running trials


The Eu of the Bayer-type battleships was created according to the three-shaft scheme traditional for the German fleet, which the Germans used extensively on their ships since the 90 of the 19 of the 20th century. Initially, the use of three cars was dictated by the desire to reduce their height, in comparison with the “two-shaft” scheme, but later the Germans saw other advantages of the three shafts. Smaller vibration, better handling, while in the event of the failure of one of the machines, the ship lost only a third, and not half the power of its power plant. Interestingly, for some time the Germans hoped that the movement under the middle machine alone would increase the driving distance, but soon they saw that this idea was not working. Nevertheless, the other advantages listed above made the three-shaft power plant traditional for German heavy ships.

It was originally planned that the "side" propellers will rotate with steam turbines, and the middle shaft will be driven by a powerful diesel engine. But this idea was abandoned at the design stage - the solution with a diesel engine was more expensive, and most importantly, the progress of its development was progressing much slower than the original expectations. As a result, Bayern and Baden received three steam turbine units with Parsons turbines. The steam for them was produced by 14 boilers of the Schulz-Thornicroft system, with three of them working on oil, and the rest had mixed heating, but also could only work on coal or oil. The power of the mechanisms should have been 35 000 hp, while the speed should reach 21 knots.


Boilers of Germanic battleships of the "Bayern" type at the factory


Unfortunately, the sea trials of “Bayern” and “Baden” were carried out according to an abbreviated program - in connection with wartime. Both of these ships went beyond the normal mile in displacement, more than normal, while they were forced to undergo tests at the shallow measuring mile in Belt, where the sea depth did not exceed 35 m. However, the Bayern developed 37 430 power during the six-hour mileage hp, while the average speed was 21,5 knots., and tests for maximum speed showed 22 node with power 55 970 hp Approximately the same figures were demonstrated by Baden, developing power in 54 113 hp and the speed of 22,086 knots., with a displacement of 30 780 t, that is, on 2 250 t exceeding the normal.

The calculations of German specialists showed that if both battleships were tested in their normal displacement and in deep water, their speed would be an 22,8 node. A relatively small increase in speed attracts attention, despite the fact that the power of the mechanisms turned out to be much higher than planned. The Bayern type battleships proved to be slower than their 305-mm predecessors: the Kaisers developed speed up to 23,6 knots. The Koenig did not yield to them, and the Grosser Kurfurst seemed to set the record for a short time. in the battle of jutland speed in the xnumx node. At the same time, the Bayerns did not reach the 24 nodes, and the reason for this was more complete hull lines, to which the German shipbuilders were forced to resort. The British subsequently studied the Bayern type battleships in great detail, came to a fair conclusion that their shells were optimized for speed in the 23 node, and exceeding this speed required a sharp increase in the power of the power plant.

What can be said about the speed of "Bayern"? Out of doubt, the 21 node was chosen quite rationally and consciously, within the framework of the concept of dividing the main fleet forces into "main forces" and "high-speed wing". "Bayern" were the classic battleships of the "main forces", which additional speed would be superfluous, as it would require the weakening of weapons or reservations, but would give nothing tactically, since the "Baeirnas" would have to act as part of a line of slow-moving . And, again, an increase in the fullness of the hull was caused by more than good reasons.

But alas, as is usually the case, reality has made the most significant adjustments to superbly-logical theoretical constructs. I must say that “Bayern” did not have enough time for the Battle of Jutland: by that time its crew had not yet received full combat training, therefore the battleship was considered a semi-capable unit, which should have been sent into battle except in the case of a direct assault on the German coast by the battleships Grand Fleet. Then, after Jutland, the battleship gained full combat capability, and the German command became somewhat more optimistic about the possible outcome of the confrontation between the line forces of Germany and England in open battle, which was why the plan for the new large-scale operation was conceived. June, July, and early August were spent on rebuilding ships damaged in the Battle of Jutland, and then Hohzeeflott sailed into the sea, and Bayern went on its first combat expedition. But alas, it is not at all the quality to which his admirals and designers intended.

19 August 1916. The battleship Bayern took to the sea ... as part of the 1 reconnaissance group, that is, being numbered among the battle cruisers! It is usually mentioned that the main reason for such a strange decision was the absence of “Derflinger” and “Seidlitz”, which, having received the hardest damage in Jutland, simply did not have time to return to the system with the start of the operation. But we can not exclude the fact that the Germans, faced on the battlecruisers with excellent battleships such as Queen Elizabeth, combining high speed and 381-mm guns, absolutely did not want to repeat this experience and therefore included in the avant-garde battleship that could fight them equally. This latest version is also supported by the fact that, in addition to Bayern, the 1 reconnaissance group, which at that time had only two Fon der Tann and Moltke battlecruisers, was also reinforced by the Markgraf and the Grosser Elector ”, which generally speaking, were faster than Bayern. And if speed were a priority, then it would be quite possible to transfer the 1 th reconnaissance group "instead of the three aforementioned battleships of three ships of the König type or of the Kaiser type - such a combination would turn out to be faster. Nevertheless, Bayern was chosen - the most slow-moving, but at the same time the most powerful 3 of the last series of German dreadnoughts. “Baden” did not take part in this campaign - at the very time when Hochseeflotte went to sea, he was only presented for acceptance tests. However, Bayern did not get a chance to distinguish itself either - there was no collision with the British fleet.

But back to the technical characteristics of this type of battleships. The total fuel supply was 3 560 tons of coal and 620 tons of oil. The course range was calculated to be 5 000 miles on 12 nodes, 4 485 on 15 knots, 3 740 (17 knots), and 2 390 miles on 21 knots. But here there was one important circumstance. As we said earlier, the Germans used coal as a constructive defense of the ship - they were filled with narrow (1,85 m) and long coal pits that run along the entire citadel. As a result, about 1 200 tons of coal were not located along the boiler rooms, from where they would be relatively easy to feed to the boilers, but in the area of ​​turbines and 380-mm towers of the main caliber. The use of these 1 200 tons, of course, led to a certain weakening of the anti-torpedo protection, but the problem was not only and not so much, but the fact that it was extremely difficult to extract these supplies from narrow bunkers in combat and very difficult in the sea. It was necessary to first extract the coal from the bunkers, then drag them to the bunkers located near the boiler rooms, and load them there - all this was very labor-intensive and led to severe fatigue of the crew, which was hardly permissible in combat conditions, when at any time would expect a collision with enemy ships. Thus, these 1 200 t coal became the emergency supply, which would be very difficult to use, and the above range was more theoretical.

The number of crew differed for peacetime and for wartime. According to the schedule, in wartime, the Bayern crew was 1 276 people and Baden was 1 393 people, the difference is due to the fact that Baden was created as the flagship battleship Hohzeeflott, and as such, had additional rooms to accommodate the comflot and his headquarters. I must say that later, when the battleship was handed over to the UK, the British did not like either the officer’s cabins or the crew’s quarters, and only the 60 square admiral’s salon received approval. on "Baden".

This concludes the description of "Bayern" and "Baden" and proceed to the American "standard" battleships.

To be continued ...
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  1. +2
    8 January 2019 05: 38
    I have a question to which I myself did not find a satisfactory answer: there is data on the thicknesses of structural steel in the midsection section: like an armored deck is 30 mm of armor plus how many shirts? For a number of sites, this is critical for calculating projectile resistance. Thanks in advance hi
    1. +1
      8 January 2019 09: 12
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      type of armored deck is 30 mm armor plus how many shirts?

      Great question. Alas, I don’t have an exact answer to it either, but there are some guesses that I will express a little later hi
  2. +1
    8 January 2019 05: 56
    And the second question (I’m writing from Beijing by phone, if you don’t mock me): there should be all kinds of additional wave resistance in Belte 20 percent. Why not show more than 23 and much more at the Noykrug mile of Bavaria? Maybe they put them to the battle cruisers, because they could keep the same speed as the fifth squadron?
    1. 0
      8 January 2019 09: 13
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      Why not show more 23 and much more at the Noykrug mile of Bavaria?

      Nuuu, the Germans themselves recounted the speeds, and I don’t think we will do it more accurately
      1. 0
        8 January 2019 09: 23
        Very interesting, thanks!
      2. +2
        8 January 2019 09: 29
        Share, psta, where infa about 22,8? And then all that I saw in the literature available to me is only "IMHO already 23 without problems." I personally tend to 23 for a few hours, and then go into an endless debate on the "schedule of reducing the productivity of stokers from fatigue." And now the mulberries have already been discussed, where are the boilers with separate power supply, and where with the combined one.
        1. +1
          8 January 2019 09: 59
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          Share, psta, whence infa about 22,8?

          S. Vinogradov, "Superdreadnoughts of the Second Reich" Bayern "and" Baden ", p. 23 hi
        2. +1
          8 January 2019 18: 19
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          Share, psta, where infa about 22,8? And then all that I saw in the literature available to me is only "IMHO already 23 then without problems"


          According to wartime conditions, both ships were tested on the measuring line at Eckenferde (not far from Keel), where the depth of the place did not exceed 35 m, which is clearly not enough for reasons of increasing wave resistance to the movement of the ship. The so-called "First critical speed" for such depths is V = 18-25 knots. Under these conditions and in this speed range, a 15-25% increase in wave resistance is observed. It is safe to assume that in deep water (more than 90 m, ie more than half the length of the ship) Bayern and Baden could easily reach speeds of more than 23 knots. During the tests, the following results were obtained for the battleship "Baden":

          1. December 9, 1916, displacement of 28500 tons, the highest achieved average speed of 22,3 knots with an average draft of 8,45 m and at 259 shaft revolutions per minute and a power of 52815 hp on the shafts

          2. January 6, 1917, displacement of 30850 tons, the highest achieved average speed of 20,37 knots with an average draft of 8,95 m and at 224 shaft revolutions per minute and a power of 33457 hp on the shaft.
          1. 0
            9 January 2019 07: 56
            So I'm talking about this) I feel a hot battle for the first place between the "standard" ones, and there every quarter of the node will be very important
  3. +1
    8 January 2019 06: 51
    But here one important circumstance arose. As we said earlier, the Germans used coal as a constructive defense of the ship - they were bombarded with narrow (1,85 m) and long coal pits running along the entire citadel. As a result, approximately 1 tons of coal were not located along boiler rooms, from where they would be relatively easy to supply to boilers, but in the area of ​​turbines and 200-mm main-caliber towers. The use of these 380 tons, of course, led to the well-known weakening of anti-torpedo protection, but the problem was not only and not so much that, but that extracting these supplies from narrow bunkers was an extremely difficult task, completely impossible in battle and very difficult in the sea. It was first necessary to remove coal from the bunkers, then drag them to the bunkers located next to the boiler rooms, and load them there - all this was very laborious and led to severe fatigue of the crew, hardly permissible in combat conditions, when at any time it was possible to expect collisions with enemy ships. Thus, these 1 tons of coal became an inviolable reserve, which would be very difficult to use, and the range indicated above was more theoretical.

    So this, dear colleague (with past, however drinks ) hi , and there is one of the consequences of the imposed restrictions. I am more than sure that if the Germans had given up the desire for their own objective reasons, to push the maximum to the minimum and go for an increase in displacement, which is adequate for the conditions of using 15 "guns, then Bayerns would have turned out to be much more balanced. More expensive? Yes, but everything has a price request We got a more powerful artifact, but instead a weaker PTZ thickness. A double bottom makes sense in case of damage to the bottom, because the Germans were forced to save money here, rightly believing that the double bottom on the side walls of the hull is unnecessary. In this case, I understand them - an armored bulkhead would do better with the result of hitting a torpedo and a mine. Therefore, the Germans were forced to look for any tricks in the set weighted tight framework to find the right solution. I repeat - this is the result of restrictions ....
    In any case, it was in this case that the Germans received an acceptable combat unit based on their own desires and limitations ... request smile
    PS Yes, article plus good
    1. 0
      8 January 2019 07: 00
      I will add wink
      Constructive measures to protect the ship from mine-torpedo explosions consisted primarily of creating carefully planned volumes along the sides of the citadel, which were a deeply echeloned space, designed primarily to neutralize the effect of torpedo hits. The outer skin of the hull below the edge of the belt armor was made from longitudinal sutures 12- mm and 14 mm thick, riveted on bent folds. The side plating relied on a frame of channels with a height of 240 mm, which represented the side branches of the frames. There was no onboard checkered layer behind it, as was used in the design of the dreadnoughts of all the other sea powers. After breaking through this relatively malleable structure with a land mine, a stream of water rushed into a wide side compartment, bounded by a longitudinal bulkhead parallel to the board. This bulkhead had a thickness of 8 mm and was separated from the outer side at a distance of 2,1 m (amidships, slightly less at the extremities). Below it rested against a double bottom, above - into the bevel of the lower deck, and the large side compartments formed in this way were almost ideal volumes for expanding gases during a torpedo explosion, effectively extinguishing their energy. Thus, German shipbuilders, unlike their foreign counterparts, forced large volumes of space behind the outer skin to work against its destructive force at the first stage of an underwater explosion, rather than a double board and its set, equally destined for destruction without any significant benefit.
      hi
  4. +1
    8 January 2019 07: 29
    Well, here is Andrey and gave the answer to the question about, supposedly, the "best" battleship PMV, which is pedaling so hard by many here, on the VO. Once again, I repeat, it cannot be considered the "best" ship that has not passed a real battle test. For "paper" characteristics is one thing, but how he will behave under enemy fire is quite another. Here the "queens" proved to be excellent, having withstood the battle with almost the entire German fleet.
    1. +2
      8 January 2019 08: 04
      But what about Hood, a long time considered the city of the British Navy?
      1. +2
        8 January 2019 08: 30
        That's it, that "considered" and just "pride". In general, the British themselves considered Queen Elizabeth to be their best battleship of both world wars.
        1. 0
          8 January 2019 08: 51
          Better than Iowa - info one hundred percent interest wassat
          1. +1
            8 January 2019 08: 59
            Learn to read first, "dear". The best ENGLISH battleship.))
            1. -2
              8 January 2019 09: 15
              Is this the "best English joke"? Give proof that the impudent thought KE was cooler than Vanguard laughing
              1. 0
                8 January 2019 09: 24
                And what, Wangard WWII battleship? In my opinion, it went into operation after the war, and the experience of this war was taken into account during its construction. And, to put it mildly, not the most successful ship was, especially against the backdrop of contemporaries.
    2. +6
      8 January 2019 18: 52
      Quote: Rakovor
      Here the "queens" have shown themselves perfectly, having withstood the battle with almost the entire German fleet.

      lol
      The battleships of Evan-Thomas were immediately turned away when they saw the head battleships of Scheer, therefore the "run to the north," as the British call the Germans trapped after this turn, the "incomparable queens" fought with the same cruisers of Hipper and only a division ( 4 units) "König" from the Third Hochseeflotte Squadron under the command of Rear Admiral Behnke.
      Had the four "queens" hit at least in the middle of the German formation, then in an hour of battle the Germans would have made their English stuffed. I often read the bullshit about Beatty and Evan-Thomas fighting the entire German fleet. Throughout Jutland, only the battle cruisers Hipper and the four "königs" Benke were constantly raking off ... I don't consider light forces ... EVERYTHING!
      1. 0
        8 January 2019 22: 07
        I apologize, the phone stuck by accident minusanul but wanted a plus; (
    3. +1
      12 January 2019 15: 08
      Quote: Rakovor
      Well, here is Andrey and gave the answer to the question about, supposedly, the "best" battleship PMV, which is pedaling so hard by many here, on the VO. Once again, I repeat, it cannot be considered the "best" ship that has not passed a real battle test. For "paper" characteristics is one thing, but how he will behave under enemy fire is quite another. Here the "queens" proved to be excellent, having withstood the battle with almost the entire German fleet.

      Perfectly? What is it like? Came shooting and that's all? It's fine?
  5. +3
    8 January 2019 09: 24
    Eh, the last German battleships PMV turned out to be very controversial. It would seem that there are many compartments to improve unsinkability - and then there are such "holes" in the torpedo compartments ...
    1. +2
      8 January 2019 18: 30
      Bayern and Baden, unlike their brothers in the High Seas Fleet, were not destined to leave a spectacular mark in the naval battles of World War I. Both Kaiser's superdreadnoughts entered the history of military shipbuilding as one of the most interesting examples of battleships primarily because of their perfect design - the result of a brilliant engineering solution to the issue of creating a heavy artillery ship "in a generation." This is how they are unanimously assessed by the majority of historians of shipbuilding and navy, not only in Germany, but throughout the world. "On the whole, such a degree of perfection was achieved in ships of this class, at which, with the exception of speed, there could be a need to improve only some details, and not the design itself as such" (Z. Breuer). "Bayern" and its brethren were superior to their predecessors, not only in external data. They embodied significant technical progress and extremely successful design. This circumstance and their exceptional combat power also found their expression in their formidable and at the same time harmonious appearance "(E. Strobusch)." This ship, as a combat vehicle, was clearly superior to any comparable battleship of the Royal Navy "(W. M. Phipps-Hornby) The citation can be continued, but the overall tone of the assessments will not change.
      hi
      1. -1
        9 January 2019 07: 53
        You can quote as much as you like, but the battle didn’t pass a real test, so there’s nothing to talk about. ALL.)))
        1. 0
          9 January 2019 19: 47
          The conqueror of Satan’s rocket would not be afraid of a bit, since it didn’t pass the battle test fool
          really ALL!
          1. -1
            10 January 2019 06: 41
            Twist yourself at the temple, "smart guy".
            1. 0
              10 January 2019 07: 17
              draining counted tongue
              1. -2
                10 January 2019 07: 19
                You should work as a clown in a circus.
          2. 0
            25 January 2019 18: 21
            Are you sure you want the real application of Satan? bully
            why compare battleships and completely different weapons?
            1. 0
              25 January 2019 18: 55
              I don’t compare, but Rakovor says that what REALLY did not fight in a cruel section does not count - in my opinion, he is very wrong) I pricked him so little bully
              1. 0
                26 January 2019 00: 12
                I wrote about the fact that missiles are so evaluated or compared) - well, like a joke except hi
  6. 0
    8 January 2019 12: 00
    Good afternoon.
    Happy New Year.
    To the author +, for the labors.
    And, as usual, the question.
    Tell me, what was the total weight of the towers considered? Did everyone think the same? Or someone at full weight included, in addition to the weight of the cannons, the armor and the structure of the tower itself, the turntable, the lifting mechanisms, the mechanical rotation of the tower, and the mechanical lifting of the BC from the cellars. And did this figure include the weight of the barbet armor and the weight of the construction of the BK cellar itself? And the weight of the BK in the cellars? Did everyone think the same? Or, for example, for someone all of the above was included in the total figure, and for someone, these weights passed under different load items?
    Thank you in advance.
    Why am I so to say "freezing" just with the purchase of books that are advised to read, such as "Rurikovich" everything is very bad, in terms of purchase, you can't buy them, there is any slag, they are not. The same situation, by the way, as with the books of S. Makhov and E. Sozaev.
    1. +1
      8 January 2019 12: 44
      Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
      Tell me, what was the total weight of the towers considered? Did everyone think the same?

      It all depends on the country and period :)))) For example, in the Russian Empire for the squadron battleships indicated the mass of the tower mechanisms without armor and guns. But here, according to the dreadnought era, the sources usually give data on the rotating part of the towers - that is, the total weight of the tower installation without barbet and fixed turret compartments, respectively, and without ammunition, and, for example, the weight of the towers of Empresses Mary and Sevastopol is precisely indicated. That is, we observe a certain unification, which, of course, cannot but rejoice.
      Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
      Why am I so to say "freezing" just with the purchase of books that are advised to read

      So the Internet is the same ... Let’s say, for example, I converted almost all of my paper library to electronic for a long time, moreover, downloading books that I bought in stores for a long time for free. But I didn’t tell you this! :)))))))
      1. +3
        8 January 2019 15: 06
        Yes, dear Andrey, I, as it were, fell from the moon. I just have this electronic form .... For example, Vinogradov's book "The Last Giants ....", I tortured for three weeks, and in paper form, I would have mastered it in three or four days. Now, by the way, I'm trying to master your series about battle cruisers.
        So, to be honest, it’s easier for me to spend money than to spend many hours torturing my eyes.
        Thanks for the reply.
        1. 0
          8 January 2019 15: 51
          Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
          Just me this electronic view ....

          Ah, that's it ... And I’m in deep bewilderment :)))))) I want to say, I also didn’t immediately get used to the electronic device (I bought a reader, and ...) but then, picking up a paper book in my hands , I noticed that when I read the page, the finger automatically tries to press the scroll button :)))))))))
          1. +1
            8 January 2019 16: 03
            Here you are talking about paper books, readers, but after a very long time working with a laptop, my eyesight simply changed, otherwise I can’t name these things - I could read books for days, now my eyes instantly get tired, but there’s something to read and perceive on the screen I can at least all day. Therefore, I have a question with the purchase of paper books, in principle, is not worth it - only electronic, only hardcore laughing Although some publications have to wait sooooooo long in this form ...
            1. +2
              8 January 2019 16: 20
              Quote: arturpraetor
              and after a very long work with a laptop, my eyesight was simply rebuilt

              Also an option :)))) But for me a paper book is still preferable, I am a traditionalist and still get more pleasure from it. I can easily replace it with electronic, but all else being equal, I still prefer paper. I’m just trying to press the whole button on it :)))) And, of course, it’s easier to rip out the scheme from the electronic version and photos :)))))))))
    2. -1
      8 January 2019 22: 18
      Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
      everything is very bad, in the sense of purchase, they can’t be bought, any slag is, they are not. The same situation, by the way, as with the books of S. Makhov and

      Books of Sergey Makhov are not at all difficult to buy from Makhov S. himself. He is in LJ almost every day.
  7. 0
    8 January 2019 13: 30
    Yeah, the Germans made it easier ... The same disease was characteristic of pocket battleships, for Askold, on which the extraordinary vibration of the case was also a payment for relief.
    The gain in speed from 3 cars when only the 1st one was working - it was still in the RIF when they did not achieve it at Relight - the resistance of idle propellers consumed all the savings. The Germans on Askold solved this problem with a device for decoupling the shafts, the Japanese, after the PMW, solved by means of the electric rotation of the shafts of non-working turbines ...
    Premises for underwater SLTs were generally a weak point in the construction of battleships of that time. As far as I remember, they played a role in the fate of Luttsov.
    Thanks for the continuation, a definite plus.
    1. 0
      April 5 2019 13: 05
      to understand why the Germans made it easier, you should read Tirpitz
      the stability of their shipbuilding program was largely on the implementation of the agreements to the smallest detail. And if you agreed to build such a ship and for so much, nothing can be added, otherwise the parliament may not approve anything at all.
      Fints like we built Ishmaels would have done great damage to the pace of construction among the Germans.
  8. +2
    8 January 2019 14: 26
    The fact is that on the superdreadnaughts of the second Reich, the Germans did not find the strength to abandon such a "necessary" military weapon as ... ramming stem.

    For the sake of fairness, it must be added that on German dreadnoughts, the ram stems were not much different from the non-ramming stems of British dreadnoughts, and in fact were something like a bulbous, and not a pronounced spy. True, everything was spoiled by an underwater rod-type TA, whose valance and cover, strictly perpendicular to the direction of movement, created serious resistance and "ate" EMNIP up to 0,5 knot of travel.
    1. 0
      8 January 2019 18: 14
      Quote: arturpraetor
      True, everything was spoiled by an underwater rod-type TA, whose valance and cover, strictly perpendicular to the direction of movement, created serious resistance and "ate" EMNIP up to 0,5 knot of travel.

      Yes
      The stem had a shape similar to a ram. In its lower part, as before, a bow torpedo tube was located (it is noteworthy that its large flat cover increased the resistance of the ship by about 2%)
  9. +1
    8 January 2019 16: 35
    As always an interesting article.
  10. +3
    8 January 2019 18: 07
    Andrew was intrigued. I believe that one should not give the case of Bayern’s explosion the status of some very significant evidence of his weakness towards the British. Of course, the torpedoes of World War II are not the same Russian mine, which is not at all the most powerful at which Byern exploded. But the death of Royal Oak and Barham from German torpedoes reveals the weakness of the British technical and technical defense, both standard battleships and high-speed ones. I look forward to continuing the German and American parts.
    1. +1
      8 January 2019 18: 40
      Quote: Potter
      Andrew was intrigued. I believe that one should not give the case of Bayern’s explosion the status of some very significant evidence of his weakness towards the British. Of course, the torpedoes of World War II are not the same Russian mine, which is not at all the most powerful at which Byern exploded. But the death of Royal Oak and Barham from German torpedoes reveals the weakness of the British technical and technical defense, both standard battleships and high-speed ones. I look forward to continuing the German and American parts.


      In the designs of German battleships and battle cruisers built before and during the WWII there was a serious drawback in the form of large citadel compartments for torpedo tubes located in the bow of the hull on both sides, and this flaw manifested itself in the years of WWI. What was something was.
    2. 0
      9 January 2019 11: 47
      then there were other torpedoes, but the death of Odessedes is tin
  11. +1
    8 January 2019 20: 54
    “Kaisers” reached speeds of up to 23,6 knots.

    "Kaiser"
    During runs on the Neukrugsky mile, Parsons-type steam turbines with a total rated power of 31000 hp on the shafts developed a maximum power of 55187 hp, (1,78 times higher than the nominal, specific power of 2,23 hp / t of normal displacement), which at a shaft speed of 279 rpm ensured the ship had a maximum speed of 23,4, 2,4 knots (XNUMX knots higher than contracted)

    "Friedrich der Grosse"
    During the Friedrich der Große runs on the Neukrugsky Mile, AEG-Curtis steam turbines with a total rated shaft power of 31000 hp developed a maximum power of 42181 hp (1,36 times higher than nominal, specific power 1,71 hp / t normal displacement), which at a shaft speed of 272 rpm ensured the ship had a maximum speed of 22,4 knots. (1,4 knots higher than contracted)

    "Kaiserin"
    During the Kaiserin runs on the Neukrugsky Mile, Parsons-type steam turbines, with a total rated power on the shafts of 30000, developed a maximum power of 41533 hp. (1.34 times higher than nominal, specific power 1.68 hp / t normal displacement), which at a shaft speed of 268 rpm ensured the ship had a maximum cruising speed of 22.1 knots. (1.1 knots higher than contracted)

    "Prince Regent Luitpold"
    During runs on the Neukrugsky mile, Parsons-type steam turbines with a total rated power of 26000 hp on shafts developed a maximum power of 38751 hp (1,49 times higher than nominal, specific power 1,57 hp / t normal displacement), which at a shaft speed of 272 rpm ensured the ship had a maximum speed of 21,7 knots. (1,7 knots higher than the contracted speed of 20,0 knots). Of the five ships in the series, he, naturally, turned out to be the slowest.

    "Koenig Albert"
    During the König Albert runs on the Neukrugsky Mile, the steam turbines of the Schihau plant with a total rated power on the shafts of 31000 hp developed a maximum power of 39813 hp (1,28 times higher than the nominal, specific power 1,61 hp / t normal displacement), which at a shaft rotation speed of 262 rpm, provided the ship with a maximum speed of 22,1 knots. (1,1 knots higher than contracted)

    As you can see, the 23,4 (and not 23,6) knots indicated in the reference books were reached only by the head "Kaiser" - the rest were more modest smile hi
  12. -5
    8 January 2019 22: 34
    A good illustration of this weakness was the detonation of Russian battleships Bayern and Grosser Elector during the operation Albion.


    Again, it is interesting to compare the state of Bayern and Luttsov, who suffered similar damage in the Battle of Jutland: as a result of two hits of 305 mm shells from Invincible, or maybe Inflexible


    Are you serious, or as usual, without thinking blurted out? lol

    Someone please explain to the author that it is customary to place mines deep underwater, but twelve-inch shells usually fly above water. And such damage, by definition, cannot be identical. fool

    Dreamer you are ours laughing
    1. +4
      9 January 2019 11: 02
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Someone please explain to the author

      Someone, please explain to Saksakhors that different damage caused by different means of destruction can lead, and sometimes lead to the same consequences. As it happened, for example, with Bayern and Luttsov, who, although from various "stimuli", had their nasal compartments outside the citadel flooded, without damaging the transverse bulkheads of the citadel.
      1. +1
        9 January 2019 11: 46
        maybe the truth is in the middle, if for memory, then Lyuttsov’s problem was the impossibility of organizing normal access to a number of nasal compartments due to damage and organizing pumping of water from there. but I agree with the author, the huge TA compartments in front of the citadel are almost the main miscalculation of the designers, another thing is that this is like Tirpitz’s personal whim, and not their fault
        1. +1
          9 January 2019 13: 40
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          maybe the truth is in the middle, if only as a keepsake, then Lyuttsov’s problem was the impossibility of organizing normal access to a number of nasal compartments due to damage and organizing the pumping of water from there.

          Yes, the question is something else :)))) Bayern could not give a big move, because his bulkhead began to "breathe", holding back the water pressure, but this was not observed with Lyuttsov, despite the fact that he took about twice the water in his nose more. But Bayern quickly moved down to 4 knots and could not hold 11 ties even after the 1st repair in Tagalakht, and Luttsov soon gave 15 knots in a combat situation.
          1. 0
            9 January 2019 16: 10
            I propose to recall that two other German battleships, including Grosser Elector, who were blown up by mines during the same operation, received the most minor damage - hence the conclusion - in general, the Germans' technical training station is beyond praise, no? TA ashore, the compartment is crushed - see paragraph one. They hit bulkheads from a blow in the nose for everyone, including both Yamato, no?
            1. 0
              9 January 2019 20: 16
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              I propose to recall that two other German battleships, including Grosser Elector, who were blown up by mines during the same operation, received the most minor damage - hence the conclusion - in general, the Germans' technical training station is beyond praise, no?

              The Germans' PTZs were good, who argues, but within the citadel. But outside it ... everything is not very there, alas. And again - the given situation with Bayern’s demolition is intended to help evaluate the strength of his hull, and not the PTZ - we see that his waterproof bulkheads did their job worse than Luttsov’s.
              Quote: Andrei Shmelev
              They hit bulkheads from a blow in the nose for everyone, including both Yamato, no?

              Really? Here at Yamato EMNIP, they completely coped with their task, but I need to check, I don’t remember exactly
              1. 0
                9 January 2019 20: 25
                As I understand it, Bayern’s problem was that the internal explosion of the cylinders greatly damaged the body structures adjacent to the affected compartment, which they began to hand over due to such damage. Luttsov didn’t have such an explosion - all adjacent structures held much better at 15 knots (there is an opinion that he wouldn’t have to squeeze 15 knots, he would crawl like everyone else to the base).
                It is doubtful that the German waterproof bulkhead in this place was much weaker than the British or American. At least during the WWI, the reliability of the German dreadnought corps structures never gave more cause for criticism.
                Therefore, I think that the conclusion about the unreliability of this particular bulkhead is premature in Bavaria.
                1. -1
                  10 January 2019 00: 56
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  As I understand it, Bayern’s problem was that the internal explosion of the cylinders greatly damaged the body structures adjacent to the affected compartment, which they began to hand over due to such damage.

                  No, completely wrong. It was at Luttsov that the structures adjacent to the compartment were struck harder, which is why he took twice as much water into the nose as Byern. In any case, the bulkhead separating the citadel from the torpedo compartment remained intact in both ships, but at Bayern it coped with the pressure of water worse
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  At least during the WWI, the reliability of the German dreadnought corps structures never gave more cause for criticism.

                  Hmm ... let’s think ... But what about Bayern’s mine bombing in 1917? laughing
                  1. 0
                    10 January 2019 07: 22
                    It was at Luttsov that the structures adjacent to the compartment were more affected, which is why he took twice as much water into his nose than Byern. - obviously
                    In any case, the bulkhead separating the citadel from the torpedo compartment remained intact in both ships - it is not at all obvious, moreover, IMHO, a strong internal explosion could not help but damage it
                    Let's look for a detailed description of damage from an internal explosion
                    1. -1
                      10 January 2019 07: 29
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      In any case, the bulkhead separating the citadel from the torpedo compartment remained intact on both ships - it’s not at all obvious

                      This was obvious to eyewitnesses, from whom we all learned. The Bayern bulkhead deflection at 20 mm at a speed of 11 ties was diagnosed by the Germans
                      1. -1
                        10 January 2019 10: 14
                        the bulkhead separating the citadel from the torpedo compartment remained intact - is there a detailed description? I’ll explain my position: a) an internal explosion could not fail to damage it, b) different concepts that are intact and watertight

                        in any case, after this story, the TA was dismantled, the compartment was divided into five small ones - the weak spot was eliminated, Bavaria is driving
                      2. +2
                        11 January 2019 07: 23
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        the bulkhead separating the citadel from the torpedo compartment remained intact - is there a detailed description?

                        What can be a detailed description of an intact bulkhead? :)))
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I will explain my position: a) an internal explosion could not fail to damage it

                        Then please provide a description of her damage.
                      3. 0
                        11 January 2019 22: 03
                        there is such a concept - "presumption". it is presumed that the sun is shining every day, it is presumed that a strong explosion damages what is around the explosion site

                        no detailed description of what happened inside after the explosion of the cylinders

                        in any case, after this story, the TA was dismantled, the compartment was divided into five small ones - the weak spot was eliminated, Bavaria is steering, you can not argue about the bulkhead
      2. -4
        10 January 2019 21: 05
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Someone, please explain to the saxacors that different injuries caused by different means of destruction can lead, and sometimes lead to the same consequences.

        Did you remind me of the classics now? What happened in the end - "She drowned"? :)

        It’s ridiculous to compare mine protection and projectile protection. It is even more stupid to compare the consequences of damage to completely different load-bearing structural elements. I understand that if you stamp three articles a day, there is no time to think. Well, you really try somehow. There is enough garbage on topvar without you.
        1. +5
          11 January 2019 07: 30
          Quote: Saxahorse
          It’s ridiculous to compare mine and rocket protection

          Oh yes :)))) That is, a mine that broke a board just below the Bayern armored belt in the TA area and two shells that pierced the armored belt below Lyuttsov’s waterline, which caused absolutely equivalent flooding of the torpedo compartment in both ships - it’s stunned what a fundamental difference applies to water holding bulkhead.
          Saxahorse, he is such a saxahorse laughing
          Quote: Saxahorse
          I understand that if you stamp three articles a day, there’s no time to think

          Envy silently
          1. -1
            14 January 2019 23: 45
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Oh yes :)))) That is, a mine that broke a board just below the Bayern armored belt in the TA area and two shells that pierced the armored belt below Lyuttsov’s waterline, causing absolutely equivalent flooding

            Oh yeah!!! The APC armor-piercing projectile with its 13-20 kg of explosives and the naval mine with its 100-128 kg of explosives are absolutely equivalent! You are our "analyst". laughing
  13. +2
    8 January 2019 23: 15
    +++, there’s even nothing to discuss ((Although you can add ...
    The latest German superdreadnoughts turned out to be only slightly larger than Koenig-class battleships ... it’s important not to inflate the cost of battleships beyond what is necessary - it’s already, I must say, impressed.

    Not particularly slightly more expensive than Koenig- ok. 10%. And cheaper than Luttsov. i.e. 45; 48,5; 58 m.m
    And in the photo "Bayern on trials" usually pay attention to the large bow breaker, exposing the lower edge of the belt just opposite the cellars of the bow towers.
    1. 0
      8 January 2019 23: 23
      correction - 45; 49,5; 58 mil. m
    2. 0
      9 January 2019 08: 00
      60 million Reichsmarks - rounded up to 30 million rubles - cheaper than Sevastopol)
    3. +3
      9 January 2019 10: 36
      The stump is clear, 25 meters deep, so an abnormal breaker (tangled wave). And in the sea-ocean there is a lot of bare keel pitching lol and when the ships roll, it’s not a joke)
      1. 0
        9 January 2019 13: 33
        he wouldn’t be able to swing it with such a carry on the go, but a longer bulb would improve the contours
        1. 0
          9 January 2019 15: 32
          there was then no bulb theory. it's like to want to add a radar to him))) otherwise I agree he gives the impression of a very stable box
          1. 0
            9 January 2019 17: 59
            Well, he himself was already there, although today, for example, it is not clear to me why, with all the parameters calculated, it has a drop-shaped and not a pointed nose
            1. 0
              9 January 2019 18: 28
              because they didn’t know how to count the bulb’s parameters and poked at random models, in general, the bulb’s idea arose after combing a turnip on the topic: why it was more fun to swim with a ram
      2. 0
        10 January 2019 20: 18
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        And also in the sea-ocean there is a lot of bare keel pitching and when the ships roll, it’s not a joke)

        Perhaps that is why the board was reinforced to a depth of 5-6 feet below the waterline. Even in the days of wooden battleships. It usually helped.
        1. 0
          10 January 2019 21: 39
          during the time of wooden battleships, shells under water weakened weaker) and during steel ones - just about all of the weight was not enough to defend against accidental hits
          1. +2
            11 January 2019 00: 32
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev

            in the days of wooden battleships, shells under water beat weaker)

            Shells under water in the days of sailboats did not hit at all from the word ever. :) At that time, at a distance of a pistol shot, the angles of decline were 1-3 degrees. Ricochet of the core from the water is guaranteed in 100% of cases. Breakdowns in the waterline or lower only as a result of pitching, as you suggested above. :)
    4. -1
      9 January 2019 13: 41
      Quote: anzar
      Not particularly slightly more expensive than Koenig- ok. 10%

      So Koenig is not cheap :)
      1. 0
        9 January 2019 15: 40
        how much is included in the delivery set of spare parts, shells, etc. we do not know, it seems, but structurally Bavaria does not differ in principle with greater complexity compared to "R". the structure of industrial costs in similar countries should also be similar. probably the exception is the huge prices for RIF ships and low prices in Japan during WWII, but comparative cost is the topic of a couple of dozen posts and a lot of common efforts IMHO
        1. 0
          9 January 2019 20: 19
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          exception huge prices for RIF ships

          But where are they huge? Our Ishmaels cost a little more than 30 million, and they will be larger than the Bayerns.
          1. 0
            9 January 2019 21: 25
            The estimated cost before construction and the actual cost are often two big differences, so it is risky to discuss the estimated cost of unfinished construction. BUT we read:
            "preliminary calculations showed that with the addition of the 4th tower, the cost of building four ships will increase by 28 million rubles (from 168 to 196 million rubles)" I understand correctly that 196 divided by four will be 49 million rubles apiece - rounded to 100 million Reichsmarks
            For actual costs, for example, we take Sevastopol and read:
            "29 million is the price of the ship itself, and it is this that must be compared with the prices of foreign dreadnoughts. And 36,8 million is the cost of the battleship according to the construction program, which, in addition to the cost of the ship itself, includes the price of half of the guns supplied additionally ( reserve in case they fail in battle) and double ammunition, as well as, perhaps, something else that I do not know. " That is 60 and 74 million Reichsmarks.
            “I must say that our battleships, of course, were a very expensive pleasure. And moreover, no matter how sad it is to realize, but building warships in Russia often turned out to be more expensive than that of the leading world powers such as England and Germany. However, , contrary to popular belief, the difference in the cost of ships was by no means several times. For example, the German battleship "König Albert" cost the German taxpayers 45.761 thousand gold marks (23.880.500 rubles in gold) ... " laughing
            1. 0
              10 January 2019 00: 53
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              The estimated cost before construction and the actual cost are often two big differences, so it is risky to discuss the estimated cost of unfinished construction. BUT we read:
              "preliminary calculations showed that with the addition of the 4th tower, the cost of building four ships will increase by 28 million rubles (from 168 to 196 million rubles)" I understand correctly that 196 divided by four will be 49 million rubles apiece - rounded to 100 million Reichsmarks

              No, it's wrong :)))) Because the comparable price will be exactly 30,6 million of the contract value of Ishmael. The cost of a German battleship is the contractual cost of its construction, according to the agreement with the shipyard, and nothing else. You take the cost of the shipbuilding program, which is completely different.
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              And moreover, no matter how sad it is to realize this, the construction of warships in Russia turned out to be more and more expensive

              Agas, only now I wrote this in relation to the time of the construction of Sevastopol. As you can see, by 1913, something has changed for the better.
              By the way, are you aware that German shipyards rebelled due to low ship prices?
              1. 0
                10 January 2019 07: 35
                First, 196 - 168 = 28 divided by 4 = 7 multiplied by 2 equals 14 million Reichsmarks only for the 4th tower - IMHO, adding a fourth tower cannot raise the cost of the ship by more than 20% - hence a simple conclusion, the cost programs conceal a significant part of the initial estimated cost, the price of 30,6 is a pure excuse for the Duma
                Secondly, with the outbreak of war, inflation began, so I doubt very much that the price of 30.6 million would be kept - this is to the question of a rise in price during construction
                Thirdly, and what is the difference between the prices for Novik and Zhemchug, Bogatyr and his sisterships - this is for comparing prices, why suddenly Izmail will be an exception
                Fourth, Ishmael is much more technically more complicated than Savastopol, so it must cost one and a half times more
                1. +2
                  10 January 2019 13: 35
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  Thirdly, and what is the difference between the prices for Novik and Zhemchug, Bogatyr and his sisterships - this is for comparing prices, why suddenly Izmail will be an exception

                  I once compared the price tag with foreigners, and converted all prices into pounds sterling (international currency). "Bogatyr" cost 85 pounds per ton of normal displacement, "Oleg" - 117 pounds, which, however, is not surprising, since he was building a state-owned plant at an accelerated pace. "Novik" per tonne - 130 pounds, "Pearl" and "Izumrud", SUDDENLY, 121 pounds per tonne, i.e. even a little cheaper, which is also not surprising, since the Nevsky Shipyard was a private shipbuilding enterprise, and it worked much more efficiently, building better, faster and cheaper. We build "stones" at the state shipyard, the price tag per ton would be higher than the German one.
                  1. 0
                    10 January 2019 16: 15
                    Ochakov and Cahul cost as much as Oleg. so here is the system. (+ 20%)
                    how about the version that pearls became heavier primarily due to simplification (cheaper designs) - so it turned out to be only a little more expensive
                    1. +1
                      10 January 2019 16: 48
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      how about the version that pearls became heavier primarily due to simplification (cheaper designs) - so it turned out to be only a little more expensive

                      Yes and no. In general, the Novik, IMHO, was not just criticized for the fact that it was a "cover for cars", "stones" were already much more balanced ships, what is most important - with a much stronger hull. In addition, Yarrow's boilers, not Thornycroft, were used on the "pebbles", and they, EMNIP, are heavier in themselves, although I did not count the specific power of the "Novik" and "pebbles" machines. As for me - "Novik" is a kind of record ship for its concept, and "Emerald" with "Pearl" are more rational variations on the same theme. It is customary for us to assess them negatively, but I do not share this assessment, most of the accusations against them, upon detailed examination, become untenable.
                      1. 0
                        10 January 2019 18: 34
                        I would really like pearls and emerald if they were guaranteed to give 25 knots
                      2. +2
                        10 January 2019 18: 53
                        But this speed required great sacrifices. At the same time, the real "stones" were quite fast (even the actual 23 knots are a good result, a slightly later "Emden" with the same displacement had 23,5 according to the project and 23,9 on tests), while very well armed, had strong housing and relatively good living conditions. An increase in speed from 23 to 25 knots would require either an increase in displacement while maintaining the same weapons, or a lighter composition of weapons, or maybe both. In real form, the "Pearl" with the "Emerald" ships, although slow in comparison with the "Novik" by 2 knots (in fact), but the ships, unlike the "Novik", are balanced.
                      3. 0
                        10 January 2019 20: 01
                        disagree categorically, Fisher spoke out more than once and quite rightly that the lower bound of the scout’s speed is due to the speed of the large cruiser: 23 knots do not allow escape from Drake or Berwick, especially since the speed of the waves is much lower. Well, or, I’ll add on my own, the small cruiser should be cheap and massive in comparison with the large (like C against Lyuttsov) - so that it would not be a pity
                      4. +2
                        10 January 2019 20: 26
                        Well, I do not agree with your method to assert that "pebbles" suck due to the fact that they actually have a comparable speed with the passport data of the British BrKr smile Because if you look at all classmates-contemporaries, then they are either slower, or their high speed of 24-25 knots was bought at the cost of weakening the hull (Novik) or weapons (Pathfinder, 10 76-mm guns, for a cruiser the level of "deranged "). As a result, we get a classic "either-or" in shipbuilding - or we make a 25-knot cruiser at the cost of weakening all its other qualities or increasing its size to insane, or we make a balanced ship with a speed of 23-24 knots. By the way, 22 knots were enough for others ("Bremen", "Amethyst")
                      5. +1
                        10 January 2019 21: 33
                        winked because the Germans were cheap and they were not a pity - a kind of cannon meat of advice advice with battleships
                      6. 0
                        11 January 2019 20: 03
                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        ("Pathfinder", 10 76-mm cannons, for the cruiser the level of "deranged")

                        Artyom hi The Paytfander (and its sister ships) was originally built for joint operations with destroyers as their leader. Therefore, at the time of the laying (1903), the armament of 76 mm guns was considered adequate by the British. The scout's functions were secondary.
                        As soon as the destroyers in 09-10. became heavier and acquired a larger 102 mm caliber, all the "scouts" were rearmed with similar guns.
                        "Noviks" were built as close scouts in the squadron, the functions of supporting the actions of the destroyers were additional. Therefore, for these things a displacement of 3000 tons. 120 mm guns were the maximum that could be shoved without compromising speed data
                      7. +1
                        11 January 2019 20: 14
                        I am aware of the Pathfinder, I just, so to speak, increased the expression in order to show the balance of the "stones", which, although with reservations, were suitable for battle with enemy cruisers, and had decent speed, and this Englishman had the speed desired for his colleague 25 knots - but "no" weapons by cruising standards.
                      8. 0
                        11 January 2019 23: 46
                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        I am aware of the Pathfinder, just, so to speak, increased the expression in order to show the balance of the "pebbles"

                        Offset drinks wink smile
                      9. 0
                        10 January 2019 22: 58
                        Andrei Shmelev: .... the lower limit of the speed of the scout is due to the speed of the large cruiser: 23 knots do not allow escape ...

                        Eto why? The difference in half is how many hours of chasing before the start of shooting? And if you find it close (visibility is low), and 2 knots will not help in speed.
                        ... I’ll add on my own, the small cruiser should be cheap ...

                        Here you contradict yourself - high-speed, but cheap ... guessed it, destroyer!)))
                      10. 0
                        11 January 2019 07: 21
                        I inaccurately expressed Fisher’s thought - he implied that a light cruiser should be significantly faster - this is how scouts (mega destroyers in fact) appeared - I agree with you
                        then he changed his point of view and decided that in fact it would not work much faster than a linear cruiser - that means they should not be sorry, but they must have some reasonable functionality and at least some sane weapons, so they came to C
                      11. +1
                        11 January 2019 12: 47
                        ... then he changed his mind and decided ...

                        The second thought is better (as always after))). But that’s later. And as applied to the "pebble", since in Russia a cheap cruiser will not work, but 24uz. developed and (overseas construction) six-thousanders, it was necessary to make them even faster to the detriment of weapons (2 * 120mm, several 75mm). Once "nedokreisery", at least Jap. The destroyers could drive and exterminate (ie, the first thought is "scouts")).
                  2. 0
                    10 January 2019 16: 16
                    I read an excellent article, there are still thoughts, I’ll write a post, there will be an opportunity)
                  3. +1
                    10 January 2019 20: 38
                    Quote: arturpraetor
                    "Bogatyr" cost 85 pounds per ton of normal displacement, "Oleg" - 117 pounds, which, however, is not surprising, since he was building a state-owned plant at an accelerated pace.

                    Continued at prices per ton in rubles:

                    For light cruisers:
                    Russia Germany
                    1.840; 910

                    For armored cruisers:
                    Russia England Germany
                    1.720; 943; 817

                    Germany is everywhere cheaper than England and twice as cheap as Russia.
                    1. +2
                      10 January 2019 21: 30
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      Germany is everywhere cheaper than England and twice as cheap as Russia.

                      Well, yes, only if you are very selective about information laughing "Stormbreaker" pounds per ton - 87 pounds with armament, "Cressy" - 65 pounds unarmed, "Prince Henry" - 91 pounds. This is so, for example, for BrKr. For armored decks - yes, they are expensive, but for example, "goddesses" cost per ton at the level of the Germans ("Victoria Louise") and a little more expensive than the French ("Juren de la Graviere"), large armored decks were generally distinguished by a high specific price tag. Small, but fast, by the way, they are also the most expensive of the rank II cruisers SUDDENLY not "Pearls", but "Novik".

                      And yes, for reference - I made comparisons of very many numbers, more than indicated in my article on this topic here, and no "everywhere cheaper than England" and "half the price of Russia" systemically was not observed. The cheapest price tags for ships, as a rule, were just for the British and Americans, but not without reservations - the Americans, for example, have a truly golden Maine.
                      1. +1
                        11 January 2019 00: 39
                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        Well, yes, only if you are very selective about information

                        Well .. that was the opinion of the Russian naval general staff. Figures from the report to the Minister of the Sea 5 Oct. 1911 year. Just about dorgoviznost and complained. And on this report there is a resolution of the naval minister adm. Grigorovich:
                        I am sure of the rejection of overseas orders. It must be reconciled that 1911 was gone for the construction of ships, as I said before ...
                      2. 0
                        11 January 2019 07: 31
                        In general, Sevastopoli was supposed to build "Blom und Foss" (an unconditional victory in terms of price / quality / elaboration of the project), but the Germans were thrown into lawlessness after the hysteria of France
                      3. +1
                        11 January 2019 07: 29
                        At the same time, Kressi is much more complicated and more perfect than Thunderbolt (towers, KMU are a third more powerful, Krupp's belt armor, etc.) - it should cost, ceteris paribus, IMHO a third more expensive, minimum.
                        The Germans are also much more complicated than the Stormbreaker and the goddesses. Therefore, I brought very close ships from the same series. The system is traceable clearly and unambiguously.
                      4. 0
                        11 January 2019 14: 28
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        it should cost ceteris paribus IMHO a third more expensive, at least.

                        No, due to the complication of the design, there was no such rise in price. In addition, Cressy has a huge heavy body which makes the overall cost less expensive. The standard price tag for "complex" cruisers was 10-15, maximum 20 percent more expensive than a certain average. So, for us "Bogatyrs" have become very expensive, "Oleg" has surpassed the EDRs of "Borodino" by the price tag per ton (here now one "colleague" has to come from the ban and say that "Borodino" is not an EBR laughing ), but at the same time was only 21 percent more expensive than the "goddesses", being much more technically difficult. Abroad, such a difference is perhaps the maximum.

                        For comparison, you can take "Powerful", an armored cruiser with turret armament, and "Diadem", a little later, but with fully deck-casemate guns. The difference in the price tag excluding weapons is 59 and 53 pounds per ton, respectively (without weapons), i.e. about 11 percent. Another example is also from armored decks (what to do, a la "Rurik" BrKr practically nobody built) - German "Victoria Louise" (with towers) and "Gazelle" (a typical armored deck with deck AU), price tags, respectively, 92 and 85 pounds per ton (but both are already armed), the difference is even less - 8 percent. That is, of course, turret ships are more expensive, but with advanced mechanical engineering and metallurgy - not so much.

                        And yes, you can now say that armored decks are out of place here, because they are cheaper in unit cost than BrKr, but bad luck - when comparing it, it turns out that the difference between them is sometimes completely different from what is expected. German BrKr cost about the level of small armored decks ("Victoria Louise" is the most expensive here), the British also have a small difference - "Cressy" 65 pounds unarmed, "Diadem" 53 (due to the huge cheap hull), "Pelorus" 67. Yes , I know, it is believed that keeping belt armor in a ship makes it much more expensive, but as we can see from the numbers, this is not very much confirmed in practice.
                      5. 0
                        11 January 2019 14: 34
                        And yes, catch up - if you look at the price tags of "goddesses" in comparison with large armored decks in other countries, you will see that they are much cheaper only from the British. "Goddesses" without weapons per ton - 79 pounds, the British - 48-67 pounds, the Americans - 70-76 pounds, the French - 73-85 pounds. The Germans have "Kaiserin August" about 70 pounds per ton, but it is unclear, without weapons, or taking into account it.
                      6. 0
                        11 January 2019 16: 34
                        No, due to the complexity of the design, there was no such rise in price. In addition, Cressy has a huge heavy case, which reduces the cost of the total - belay
                        we compared Cressy and Stormbreaker, so: Cressy has a Krupp belt, towers, a powerful CMU, and a huge cheap heavy case ... who? right - at Thunderbolt laughing
                      7. 0
                        11 January 2019 16: 54
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        and a huge cheap heavy case ... from whom? right - at Thunderbolt

                        Does Cressy have it, small and expensive? laughing And "Thunderbolt" has little armor, and CMU is also weak ... And, by the way, "Thunderbolt" has a much richer artillery composition than "Cressy". So no, it doesn't work out the way you want, but I understand where you get all this from - the fact that Russia did not build normal tower BrKr in reality is somewhat ... It limits us in comparison.
                      8. 0
                        11 January 2019 17: 01
                        Against the backdrop of Cressi, Gromoboy’s weak KMU and outdated armor is a fact. Cressy has only two main guns, but they are 234-mm so it’s equal and plus to the turret equally)
                      9. 0
                        11 January 2019 17: 05
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Against the background of Cressi, Thunderhead has a weak CMU

                        Which, nevertheless, consists of the same number of boilers, which weigh something, and most likely cost no less than Cressy's.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Cressy has only two GK guns, but they are 234-mm so it’s equal and plus to the turret equally)

                        When you say A, say B - Cressy has 2 mm, 234 12 mm and 152 14 mm guns, and Thunderbolt has 76 4 mm, 203 16 mm and 152 24 mm guns. So, plus to the same tower, and maybe the cost of weapons "Cressy" will be equal to "Thunderbolt" laughing Although this is a rather "narrow" topic, I saw information that weapons in Russia were more expensive than in other states, but I did not check them myself.
                      10. 0
                        11 January 2019 18: 13
                        KMU Thunderbolt is a third weaker, which means about half the price. Thunderbolt's armor is old and weak. And the extra artillery won't make the difference in terms of price. Frets "change" 4 six-inch and 12 three-inch towers. What's the rest? feel
                      11. 0
                        11 January 2019 18: 22
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        KMU Thunderbolt is a third weaker means about half cheaper.

                        A figure taken from the sky. The power of the CMU has little to do with the price tag directly, it all depends on the type and number of boilers, and on the machines themselves. Cars "Cressy", yes, they were definitely more powerful and more expensive than "Thunderbolt", but how much more expensive his boilers could (or could not) be - an open question.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Gromoboy’s armor is outdated and weak.

                        Since when is Harvey in the 1898 year obsolete and weak? smile Yes, he is weaker than Krupp, but weaker by percentages, this did not really matter against cruising guns. Moreover, part of the armor on "Gromoboy" was Kruppovskaya. And yes, EMNIP, Garvey's armor was somewhat more expensive than Kruppovskaya's due to the peculiarities of manufacturing, but this is not certain.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        What is left over?

                        And the rest does not work, as you want smile No, if you want to consider that in Russia a hundred pounds was much more expensive than in other countries - please, I will not interfere, but I have worked enough with price tags to not trust such theses. Moreover, the comparison is made exclusively with British cruisers, which were traditionally quite cheap per ton of displacement, but if we compare with other states, even if we throw 10-15 percent of the cost on top of the Thunderbolt, we will get a ship slightly more expensive than the world average.
                      12. 0
                        11 January 2019 21: 43
                        "Stormbreaker" pounds per ton - 87 pounds with armament, "Cressy" - 65 pounds unarmed,
                        armament with ammunition 20-25% of the cost of the Ruriks, I do not know how much ammunition was included there, well, let it be armament 10-12%
                        CMU is the same 20-25% of the cost of the Ruriks, Cressy is one third more powerful,
                        Stormbreaker I get is relatively significantly more expensive
                        If you convince with exact numbers, I will be grateful for the new knowledge
                      13. 0
                        11 January 2019 22: 05
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        If you convince with exact numbers

                        Similarly, if you confirm your point of view with EXACT figures comparing the cost of CMU and other "Thunderbolt" with "Cressy" - then maybe I will change my point of view. In the meantime, it all looks like "well, at least in something, well, at least a little bit, well, please, well, be Russian BrKr much more expensive than English, I want it!" laughing
                      14. 0
                        11 January 2019 22: 20
                        The first thing that googled:
                        The final cost of the ship was approximately the same 9 million rubles, of which the cost of the hull was 4 rubles; reservation - 148 rubles; power plant - 855 million rubles, the rest - the cost of artillery weapons.
                        We get the cost of weapons of about 12%, hence 87 x 0,88 = 79,56 pounds per ton without weapons
                        Your turn )
                      15. 0
                        11 January 2019 23: 03
                        So, you did the calculations based on erroneous information (9 million is not the full total cost, did you find this figure from Thunderbolt, or just like that?), But I still cannot understand what you are trying to achieve. These numbers, even if they are correct, do not in any way support your point of view. I have already given you the cost of Thunderbolt per ton - with armament - 87 pounds per ton, without armament - 67 pounds. The cost of the "Cressy" with weapons is unknown to us.

                        In general, I cease to understand what you are trying to achieve by starting to juggle numbers and going into nit-picking "but here the cars are more powerful", "and here the guns are in the towers", etc. I repeat - if you want to believe in something that was more expensive with us, and "Thunderbolt" is a primitive primitive, and therefore such a seemingly cheap one, please, I will not bother you, but you will not convert me to your faith in this way work out.
                      16. 0
                        12 January 2019 08: 05
                        there are exact numbers: the cost of the case is 4 rubles; reservation - 148 rubles; power plant - 855 million rubles. the rest is math.
                        there is a fact: "Stormbreaker" is simpler than "Cressy".
                        You didn’t make your move.
                      17. +1
                        12 January 2019 13: 01
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        there are exact numbers: the cost of the case is 4 148 855 rubles; reservation - 688 000 rubles; power plant - 3.1 million rubles

                        The Ship's List, the official publication of the RIF, gives other figures as the TOTAL value of the ship. The total cost with weapons for it is 10,8 million rubles, 9 million is just the price tag WITHOUT weapons. The weapons themselves are estimated at 17 percent of the total cost. We do not know the cost of the Cressy's weapons, and there is nothing to compare with. It is not clear how you draw far-reaching conclusions based on a lack of evidence.
                        I didn’t make my move, because I’m not going to waste time on idle talk with you, you pulled a third-party info by your ears and justify your point of view, further dialogue with this approach is devoid of constructiveness.
                      18. 0
                        12 January 2019 15: 54
                        OK. Let's get it right. I have no data on the Thunder.

                        Let's see what happened at the same time.
                        Quote from the Marine Collection 1998_01
                        "Relight" cost the treasury 10,54 million, rubles., "Oslyabya" - 11,34, "Victory" - 10,05. At the same cost of armor (1,34 million), weapons (1,62 million) and mechanisms (3,1 million), the cost of the New Admiralty’s construction of Oslyaby amounted to 5,3 million, which is 1,3 million more than the Victory of the Baltic Shipyard.

                        At first glance, a paradox, such as Oslyaby’s weapons, is much cheaper than that of Thunderbolt.
                        Maybe the answer here: "Rurik" weapons and ammunition 2,2 million out of a total of 9 million

                        Threat. I understand that before 1897 = 1 f.st. = 6,3 rubles, after about 10 rubles.

                        If I'm wrong, correct, I'm not proud. I will be grateful.
                      19. +1
                        12 January 2019 16: 20
                        Dear colleague, I apologize, but I will not take part in this conversation further, I have my own things to do, which take a lot of time. Judging by what you write, you quickly went through the sources readily available on the Internet and made the same conclusions as most people who similarly familiarized themselves with the materiel. Find the "1905 Ship List", look at the price tags in it, look for the historical ruble exchange rate (which fluctuated annually), build a system in comparison with all known price tags of foreign ships according to the scheme you want - then, perhaps, we will talk.

                        And yes, get ready for such wonderful discoveries as:
                        - The pre-reform ruble exchange rate is very relative. The Swedish exchange, for example, has kept currency exchange rates almost since its inception, and there the pre-reform ruble to pound exchange rate ranges from 9 with copecks to 10 with copecks per pound, while the exchange rate you specified for 6,3 was most likely domestic Russian;
                        - for the same ship, you may have several figures of the total cost, even without converting the exchange rates. EMNIP, according to "Novik" I am our four numbers, which one is correct - it is not known, therefore I personally took the average;
                        - the information in the archives is very chaotic, because, among other things, the price tags of the ships presented in various sources may turn out to be erroneous, as there are drawings of the ships that do not correspond to their real appearance, etc .;
                        - information on foreign ships is extremely scarce, it is not always even indicated which price tag they have - with weapons, without, or in general a special case (the price tag of ships was encountered, for example, for the hull and weapons, but without boilers and cars).
                        And a bunch of funny discoveries of this kind. And then, when you still make a more or less plausible GENERAL picture, you will see that not only the shipbuilding of each of the countries, but each series of ships is unique, and, for example, the American Maine without weapons costs several times per ton more expensive than American armored and armored cruisers without this very weapon, and the Americans' squadron battleships are quite expensive in comparison with their own cruisers, but at or slightly more expensive than average. In short, all countries had very expensive, very cheap, or average ships at a price tag per ton. Russia had very expensive, very cheap or medium-sized ships at a price tag per ton. Because to say that in Russia they built UNIFORMALLY and MUCH more expensive than in Europe somehow does not work. Maybe, on average, a little more expensive than the world average - yes, it may well be, but this phenomenon should not be built into a system. The same "Thunderbolt" contested by you, in addition to a relatively low unit cost, was built very quickly, efficiently and without overloading, which also implies a certain increase in the total cost, and there are more than enough such nuances for each ship. You can take into account all the nuances of all ships - great, but I'm afraid. this will require colossal archival work, and not just sitting over sources on the Internet and operating with simple numbers, which I just don't go further - because we have stupidly little information available to get into the jungle.
                      20. 0
                        11 January 2019 22: 30
                        And as an answer: let's take another comparison, for example, "Rurik" and "Diadem"
                        I do not strive to prove that "at times", but all the time I get a significant difference
                        + 20 percent on "Bogatyrs"
                        "Andrew the First-Called" was comparable in price to "Koenig"
                        "Sevastopol" was 25 percent more expensive than the Germans, and so on.
                      21. 0
                        11 January 2019 23: 24
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        for example, "Rurik" and "Diadem"

                        Ships of different classes and slightly different build times, but these are small things. You cost "Rurik" in what rubles will you transfer, pre-reform, or post-reform? There was just Witte's reform, the ruble exchange rate changed 1,5 times. No, I understand that you are now going to google the course and, as a result, take the one for which "Rurik" is more expensive, but I will not play these games. Presumably, if at one time I chose the course correctly, then a ton of "Rurik" without weapons costs 64 pounds, "Diadem" - 53. I would not draw a conclusion about a huge difference on the basis of one ship.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I do not strive to prove that "at times", but all the time I get a significant difference

                        You take convenient examples, but you don’t want to build a system. At one time, I made a thorough comparison of all ship classes and all representatives of ship classes in the world, for which I managed to find at least some digit.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        + 20 percent on "Bogatyrs"

                        "Bogatyrs" were technically complex ships and were built at state-owned enterprises, and there at that time it was always more expensive. But yes, domestic "Bogatyrs" were more expensive than German ones, which, incidentally, is not surprising - foreigners could build at a discount (as a matter of prestige), and mechanical engineering in Russia was less developed than in Germany, and "Bogatyrs", I repeat, ships complex.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        "Andrew the First-Called" was comparable in price to "Koenig"

                        Still, with so many alterations of the project during construction and other, ahem, features of its construction))
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        "Sevastopol" was 25 percent more expensive than the Germans, and so on.

                        This is because after the revolution, workers in Russia began to pay high salaries. You have already been told in the discussion that in Germany at the shipyards the workers actually went on strike because they were paid little. Labor costs also greatly affect shipbuilding pricing. And yes, you are now engaged in a very fun activity - you took the most convenient examples for yourself (where the difference really was) from different time periods, and say that you see the system laughing Here are some bad examples besides Thunderbolt:
                        - a ton of "pebbles" is cheaper than "Novik", although "pebbles" are larger;
                        - "Victory" cost as much as a British battleship, and SUDDENLY was cheaper than German contemporaries;
                        - "Peresvet" was more expensive than the British, but cheaper than the French, Germans and Americans;
                        - "Borodino" were 10-15 percent more expensive than their contemporaries, but at the same time they were technically extremely complex and were built at a very fast pace;
                        - "Goddesses" are not very expensive and even more expensive than modern large armored cruisers;
                        - the difference between the construction of state and private enterprises in Russia was very different, the same type "Ushakov" and "Senyavin" cost 82 and 100 pounds, respectively, the state-owned one cost 1,25 times more;
                        - "Massena" was more expensive than "Poltava" by 14 pounds per ton;

                        Etc. But you can continue to take those examples that are convenient for you.
                      22. 0
                        12 January 2019 08: 27
                        Why, we will have full points of agreement:

                        1. I agree that:
                        - construction difference state and private enterprises in Russia were very different, the same type "Ushakov" and "Senyavin" cost 82 and 100 pounds, respectively, the official cost 1,25 times more;

                        2. I agree that:
                        - with such number of project alterations during construction and others, ahem, features of its construction))

                        3. I agree that:
                        mechanical engineering in Russia was developed worse

                        4. I agree with the change in the cost of labor.

                        And in these and many more similar ones I suggest to sort it out together)

                        For example, as a person directly related to large-scale construction, I’ll throw such an idea from my new field of work: WORKING documentation costs one and a half times more expensive than DESIGN, ORGANIZATIONAL-TECHNOLOGICAL - also up to dofik, you can not pay for them, but the cost of work increases dramatically - How about thinking about RIF problems in this area?

                        And points of disagreement:
                        1. I do not agree that:
                        count for 1 ton the only way to compare. UAZ Patriot and its foreign counterparts - two big differences - you need to introduce amendments to technical excellence

                        2. In any speculation, I admit "presumptions", "extrapolations", etc., since none of the discussing has a complete amount of data

                        What is the goal:
                        about seven years ago he gave up his hobby to write a book about the cost of construction and maintenance (it began in 1905). I want to continue the work, taking into account new knowledge, and possibly make corrections

                        Taking into account the above, I am ready to discuss to the point of hoarseness, the more comments I hear, the better the result will be. Answers like "I have a system, but you are not a patriot", IMHO, are destructive and make no sense. Truth is born in discussion.

                        Threat. it’s not the goal to overtake the RIF, but I will not exalt RI to the level of modern Germany, either, or you’ll convince me together with Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                      23. 0
                        12 January 2019 13: 11
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        need to introduce corrections for technical excellence

                        OK, saying A, we start talking and B - we take into account the state of engineering of different states. If we climb into the jungle, then we must look at how much each state cost components - a ton of hull structures, equipment, boilers, cars, and everything else, because in countries A and B, ships of the same characteristics can cost the same, but in one country it’s cheap weapons and expensive boilers, and in another - expensive machinery and cheap boilers, you will spend time on these nuances, but this will not affect the final price tags of ships. Hint - you will not find most of this information on the Internet, because this is already too specialized a topic, and you probably cannot afford to visit the archives of all the leading maritime powers of that time.

                        And yes, we are comparing the total cost of building ships. Yes, you can still take into account the technical excellence of projects, but this is what matters - it is often a subjective question. You rate Zhemchugov low, although they are some of the best representatives of small cruisers in the world, which were cheaper for our treasury than Novik. And the estimate for a ton of displacement is just the most objective - different ships with different dimensions and displacement, but belonging to the same class, it makes no sense to assess the total cost and technical perfection. We estimate how much the construction of the ship cost the treasury, this is primary, the rest is a separate topic.
                      24. 0
                        12 January 2019 16: 16
                        1. I completely agree with you about mechanical engineering, etc. These nuances must be taken into account. And also, for example, the benefits of the serial construction of ships.
                        2. You can go to the archives, but you can’t spend your life on a hobby alone. Therefore, I am looking for easier ways to obtain information, for example, in communicating with colleagues.
                        3. "Pearl" is a very good ship, here I agree with you too. Nobody created anything excellent in this class. But I would finish the "Bremen" type to perfection (I don't want to argue - the main post is not about that).
                        4. The cost per ton is good, but not absolute. For example, at a construction site, a beam can be replaced with a diagonal grill. The diagonal grille is much lighter, but more expensive, with the same bearing capacity.
                        IMHO, how many have not encountered real projects for work, as a rule, easier means more expensive. BUT, here I am also with you, colleague, I agree, with an equal technological level, the price per ton is a serious thing.

                        Shl. I use the "price per piece" myself, but make speculative corrections. And I will stand on that).
                      25. 0
                        11 January 2019 22: 35
                        I don’t understand why the comment did not pass:
                        it was about this:
                        the first thing Google on Grmoboyu:
                        The final cost of the ship was approximately the same 9 million rubles, of which the cost of the hull was 4 rubles; reservation - 148 rubles; power plant - 855 million rubles, the rest - the cost of artillery weapons.
                        We get the cost of weapons of about 12%
                        87 X 0,88 = 76,56 pounds per ton without weapons
                        Your turn )
                      26. 0
                        11 January 2019 16: 35
                        For comparison, you can take "Powerful", an armored cruiser with turret armament, and "Diadem", a little later, but with fully deck-casemate guns. The difference in the price tag excluding weapons is 59 and 53 pounds per ton, respectively (without weapons), i.e. about 11 percent.
                        Does armament include towers? feel
                      27. 0
                        11 January 2019 17: 01
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Does armament include towers?

                        And FIG knows him. Depends on the calculation method, but they were different in different fleets. More likely than not, but you can’t say with certainty.

                        And I know what you are driving at - tower installations should raise the price of the ship, but here's the problem: "Stormbreaker" is cheaper than tower cruisers of other powers laughing With weapons, the price tag per ton is 87 pounds, the "Prince Henry" has 91 pounds with much more meager artillery weapons, "Montcalm" - 95 pounds, and similarly in terms of armament, there is no exact price tag for the "Asams", but presumably there is around 90 pounds per ton, with a slightly smaller composition of artillery weapons. Those. even if we assume that two artillery towers are noticeably overshadowed by the cost of weapons, this is leveled by a much smaller amount of weapons itself in comparison with the "Thunderbolt".
            2. 0
              10 January 2019 20: 25
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              However, contrary to popular belief, the difference in the cost of ships was by no means many times.

              Purely for reference. Comparative cost of a battleship per ton in rubles:
              Russia. England. Germany. S. A. S. Italy.
              1.532; 913; 846; 876; 1.090

              Sorry, the table moved out again, but it seems clear to me.
              1. 0
                10 January 2019 21: 37
                he used to write that in fact Sevastopol 30 million (contract with the shipyard), and not 37 (the cost of the program) and 1532 rubles cut, which does not change the trend, I’ll try to write the article on the cost of construction / maintenance (there will be time) - I will be grateful for exchange of views
      2. 0
        9 January 2019 17: 46
        So Koenig is not cheap :)

        Well, what are you :)) a million worth cheaper than previous Gelgolands (45 to 46 mil. Goldmark)
        But the link cruiser is expensive (Derflinger - 56 mil., Luttsov - 58, Mackensen - 66). Maybe there are so few of them.
  14. 0
    9 January 2019 10: 37
    Thank you so much Andrew!
    A detailed and, it seems to me, quite objective analysis.
    Bayern was certainly a huge step forward from Koenig. A step taken independently of the technical thought of the British, but a step in the wrong direction. Even the construction of all four Baerns by 1917 did not change anything in the balance of forces, taking into account the construction of the complete series of Queen Elizabeth (6 units) and Royal Sovereign (7 units).
    Nevertheless, it is characteristic that the main obstacle to the overdue qualitative leap in the development of dreadnought was a sharp increase in the cost of such ships, and not the possibility of German, British or American industry.
  15. +3
    9 January 2019 12: 25
    not bad! as for the ram, the anecdote of the ram is known by the Dreadnought submarine U-29, because he was the first without it ... bully
  16. 0
    9 January 2019 12: 28
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    which I bought a long time ago in stores for money. But I didn’t tell you this! :)))))))

    Yes, it’s much easier to store in electronic form, and you can immediately have everything with you on your tablet ... bully
  17. +1
    9 January 2019 12: 31
    Quote: Saxahorse
    but twelve-inch shells usually fly over water.

    tell it to the 12dm projectile with IN1 that knocked out Asama in Tsushima, as well as the "stupid" Japanese admirals who invented special projectiles ... bully
    1. 0
      9 January 2019 13: 22
      and how many adversaries were diving shells of smart Japanese admirals drowned? I recall that the fatal defeat of the battleship Tos during training firing with an ordinary shell was the only such one during the exercises
      1. +1
        9 January 2019 13: 42
        With a high probability, the projectile diving from the Bismarck sank the Hood. On 03.06.1940/XNUMX/XNUMX, a shell diving from the Hood hit the Dunkirk. Bismarck received a similar gift from the Prince of Wales.
      2. 0
        9 January 2019 13: 43
        Well, let's remember the "exchange of views" of the Prince of Wells and Bismarck. Both received a shell under the armor belt. And if you remember Jutland, there are such hits in bulk
        1. 0
          9 January 2019 13: 49
          everyone except the Japanese in bulk) or I'm wrong
          1. -1
            9 January 2019 15: 11
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            everyone except the Japanese in bulk) or I'm wrong

            They are absolutely right.
            1. 0
              9 January 2019 21: 05
              We read the book: K.P. Puzyrevsky "Damage to ships from artillery and the fight for survivability" (L .: "Sudpromgiz"), there are many, many beautiful pictures, including those with falling under the waterline.
              1. +1
                9 January 2019 21: 22
                For example, Malaya received 3 305-mm shells under the armor belt, with large holes and the adoption of a good amount of water. The British were out of control here, pumping oil to the opposite side and leveling the bank, without counter-flooding. Malaya was generally lucky in the Jutland battle - the ignition of the cordite of the 152 mm battery did not go into an explosion, the battery burned out, but the ship remained intact.
                Worspite received similar hits, he also received solid water, where tricky tommies filled the flooded compartments with cork beds, reducing the amount of water received. The internal bulkheads, however, were deformed, they had to be reinforced, and the speed dropped to 16 knots.
                1. +2
                  9 January 2019 22: 18
                  The eighth 305-mm armor-piercing shell from the German battleship hit the underwater part, struck the reservation of the main belt and affected the watertight bulkheads of the engine room. Several sections of the starboard side were flooded from the resulting hole, and some bulkheads immediately adjacent to the area of ​​the flooded sections began to deform, and they had to be reinforced. Water entered the engine room through a feed pipe. From the water received inside the ship, the depression increased by 0,4 m. The flow of water inside through the hole was stopped by filling the compartments of 400 beds, which densely clogged the premises - did this dive?
                2. +2
                  9 January 2019 22: 22
                  From a distance of 92,5 cab. at 17 p.m. two armor-piercing shells hit almost right on the starboard side of the Malaya in the area of ​​oil tanks below the waterline - directly under the shelf (Fig. 20). One of the 38-mm armor-piercing shells, having hit, exploded - and this is considered - pay attention to the distance, which is almost unthinkable by pre-war ideas, and in general, they rarely fell from 305 cabs, namely, the angle of the trajectory made it possible to dive
                3. 0
                  10 January 2019 00: 44
                  Gonchar, why are you writing this to me, may I ask? Man said
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  all but the Japanese in bulk

                  EVERYONE HAS. BESIDES. JAPANESE. IN BULK.
                  I confirmed, and you give me the ABC to quote? What for? Does she somehow refute me?
                  1. 0
                    10 January 2019 07: 43
                    let's agree like this:
                    Japanese "diving" - a projectile with a tight fuse is not cocked from hitting the water, passes through the water, is cocked from hitting the hull under the armor belt, due to the increased deceleration of the fuse, it flies in the corus for another 15 meters and detonates in the center
                    almost all cases in Jutland - an impudent projectile with a sensitive fuse is cocked from hitting the water and, due to deceleration, explodes at a depth of 2 to 7 meters near the corpse, acting as a water hammer almost like a torpedo (this is NOT a "diving")
                    at Jutland, the Japanese "diving" took place three times: Malaya - 2 times, Margrave - 1 time = pure Lakichot, but the deceleration was less than Japanese, so the explosion took place inside, but the projectile did not reach the center
                    in general, the topic of Japanese armor-piercing shells is also for a whole series of articles
                    for Europeans during the WWI - diving is like a brick fell on his head - an accident
              2. +1
                9 January 2019 22: 11
                read Puzyrevsky: in addition to two hits in Malaya from the limit of the lope of German shells there, the impudent under the belt under Jutland dived?
                in addition, a hydraulic shock wave from a close gap (a minimum of heels went to Seidlitz and one Koenig) and a real diving under the belt to Margrave with an internal gap are two big differences
                Conclusions: the probability of diving shells of less than 305 mm is negligible, the probability of diving of heavier shells increases with the caliber and distance of the battle, cases of underwater damage described in the PMV - almost all are characterized as close ruptures under water, which can lead to large flooding, but do not affect vital places
                "diving of the name of Tosa" - a unique lacichot
    2. 0
      10 January 2019 20: 45
      Quote: ser56
      tell this to the 12dm projectile with IN1 that knocked out Asama in Tsushima, as well as to the "stupid" Japanese admirals who invented special projectiles ..

      Read about the torment with special diving anti-submarine shells during WWI. First, the nose instead of the cone eventually began to resemble a glass. And secondly, the speed of such shells had to be reduced much lower than the speed of sound and shoot with purely mortar trajectories. Well, he doesn’t want to dive a normal shell under water :)

      PS I will add that even the kernel does not want to. Over 300 years of sailing battles, only 2 or 3 ships were sunk by cores falling below the waterline. And all these cases were unique and strange :)
  18. +1
    9 January 2019 15: 44
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    diving shells of smart Japanese admirals

    as the war went according to a different scenario and these shells they didn’t fire, unlike aircraft or long-range torpedoes ... it happens ... but this does not deny the essence of the problem of diving a projectile under a belt and underwater to 40m ... bully
    1. 0
      9 January 2019 16: 47
      and for heavy cruisers, didn’t they dive, but diving currents, once entered the cellar as it should?
  19. +1
    10 January 2019 13: 04
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    not diving

    diving against submarines feel
    1. 0
      10 January 2019 20: 04
      laughing alas and ah, see the post above about what diving is in Japanese,
      but the Americans really told stories of how their submarines were driven off by diving shells of heavy cruisers, that’s the current probability of such a hit recourse
  20. +1
    10 January 2019 16: 01
    As for diving shells, an explanation is necessary:
    The phenomenon of diving is associated with the hydrodynamics of the transition of the projectile from the atmosphere to the water. In this case, the underwater trajectory is associated with the moment of the initial application of forces when entering the water. The geometry of a conventional armor-piercing projectile ensures its continued movement along a trajectory close to the entry trajectory at distances of 12-18 km. At other distances, there is a high probability of "burrowing" or ricochet. The British fuse provided operation when hitting the water, so that the path in the water before the explosion was not far away (up to 30 m). The Japanese, having worked out a special shape of the armor-piercing cap, ensured an expansion of the range of conditioned diving, and using tight fuses, they ensured a huge range of underwater movement (over 100 m). However, the absence of real artillery battles battleships (and not shooting in Surigar style) did not allow this advantage to be realized.
    The German armor-piercing projectile, which did not explode from hitting the water, acted similarly, albeit with a worse underwater trajectory. In reality, the "Hood" was supposed to receive just such a projectile, which penetrated into the cellar of anti-aircraft ammunition as a blank.
    1. 0
      10 January 2019 20: 08
      And at what price did you buy this advantage? feel
    2. 0
      10 January 2019 20: 56
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      ... The geometry of a conventional armor-piercing projectile ensures its continued movement along a trajectory close to the entry trajectory at distances of 12-18 km. At other distances, there is a high probability of "burrowing" or ricochet. The British fuse provided operation when hitting the water, so that the path in the water before the explosion was not far away (up to 30 m). The Japanese, having worked out a special shape of the armor-piercing cap, provided an expansion of the range of conditional diving,

      As far as I remember, diving is obtained if the angle of entry of the projectile into the water exceeds 15-25 degrees and the speed is lower than sound. In all other cases, a rebound is guaranteed. The Japanese remember not only made a tight fuse, but also weakened the charge in order to provide the steep trajectory necessary for diving. This increases the likelihood of a dive but dramatically reduces the likelihood of a hit.
      1. +1
        11 January 2019 10: 46
        In principle, it is correct, but there is a nuance. The Japanese deliberately dulled the armor-piercing tip so that it would "bite" slightly against the water. When the entire tip enters the water, the opposite effect occurs - the trajectory is straightened. The speed of an armor-piercing projectile of 356 - 460 mm caliber never drops to the speed of sound (430 - 480 m / s) at the point of impact.
        Now for the price: explosives in an armor-piercing projectile do not serve to destroy the ship’s structures, but to crush the projectile itself into the head and side fragments to increase the area of ​​destruction. It is they who inflict the main damage inside the case: they destroy structures and mechanisms, tear down pipelines, and, if successfully hit, initiate an explosion of ammunition.
        It was the explosion in the empty artillery cellar of the unfinished "Tosa" that pushed the Japanese to the idea of ​​flashing enemy ships below the main belt, with the likelihood of severe damage to the mechanisms and detonation of ammunition. However, transferring the ideas of battleship combat to battles of cruisers, they got the opposite effect. For such battles, it is much more profitable to inflict damage on the hull and superstructures, with which high-explosive shells do an excellent job.
        1. 0
          11 January 2019 11: 31
          [/ quote] - here I am about it, although there are nuances

          BUT: do not forget that the Japanese shell had the tightest fuse and the biggest slowdown in the world, as I understand it

          [quote = Viktor Leningradets] explosives in an armor-piercing projectile are not used to destroy ship structures, but to crush the projectile itself into the warhead and side fragments to increase the affected area
          - ???? yes well it can't be
          1. 0
            11 January 2019 12: 37
            Do not confuse armor-piercing and HE shell.
            High-explosive (like semi-armor-piercing) acts as primary fragments, a shock wave and high-temperature combustion products of explosives causing damage and fires. When faced with a weak obstacle, it splits it into pieces, generating secondary fragments. Penetrating an armor-piercing projectile in its entirety beyond an armored barrier acts primarily as a dense kinetic object, striking everything in its path. To increase the area of ​​destruction, an armor-piercing projectile is undermined, dividing it into the head part (continuing movement and breaking through the following obstacles, and in the limit - the entire object through and through) and side fragments, which, summing the inertia and explosion vectors, are scattered by the striking cone inside the object. Moreover, the mass of a single side fragment significantly exceeds that for a high-explosive shell. Since the mass of the explosive in a large-caliber projectile is not large (1-3% of the total mass), the damaging effect of its combustion products is insignificant, although of course it is present.
            When an armor-piercing projectile hits a cellar of unitary cartridges, massive damage occurs to the combat units with the ignition of powder charges and the detonation of shells, leading to a catastrophic development of events. Here, an unexploded armor-piercing shell is capable of initiating the detonation of the cellar, and this, in turn, is the ignition of charges in the cellar of the main caliber.
            1. 0
              11 January 2019 16: 21
              belay I don’t confuse, I just have a little idea what an explosion of 10-20 kg of TNT is :)
              in addition, I hate the use of terms such as armor-piercing, high explosive, etc. - since these terms are EVERY fleet not to mention every historian laughing understands in his own way

              For me:
              There are thick-walled shells (2% explosives), thin-walled shells (10% explosives)
              There are shells with a sensitive fuse (up to the impact of a sailor on the deck) and a tight fuse (up to not cocked from an impact in the usual skin)
              There are shells with a small slowdown of type 0,005 s and with a large slowdown of type 0,05 s
              And a bunch of variations / combinations on this subject.
              This is not to compare Mikas shells from the time of Tsushima and Sevastopol shells from the time of the shelling of Chesma (for the Japanese, the latter would be armor-piercing, for the British half-armor-piercing)
              1. 0
                11 January 2019 18: 03
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                in addition, I hate the use of terms like armor-piercing, high-explosive, etc. - since EVERY fleet, not to mention every historian, understands these terms in every way

                Just here among historians and fleets we observe a rare unanimity
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                This is not to compare Mikas shells from the time of Tsushima and Sevastopol shells from the time of the shelling of Chesma (for the Japanese, the latter would be armor-piercing, for the British half-armor-piercing)

                Armor-piercing shells of Sevastopol would be considered as such among the Japanese and the British. High-explosive shells of Sevastopol among the Japanese would definitely be considered high-explosive, but among the British - with a high degree of probability they are also high-explosive, and there is only a very small chance that it would be considered semi-armor-piercing
                1. 0
                  11 January 2019 21: 42
                  The Japanese high-explosive shells of Sevastopol would definitely be considered high-explosive - why, am I wrong that the fuses on them were less sensitive and slowed down?
                  1. -1
                    12 January 2019 09: 25
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    why, am I wrong that the fuses on them were less sensitive and slowed down?

                    Wrong.
                    1. +1
                      12 January 2019 18: 04
                      Why is it wrong?
                      half-armor-piercing - fuse MRD arr. 1913
                      high-explosive - also fuse MRD arr. 1913
                      both with a slowdown, no?

                      About to crush my article) - I will say magic words about Ishmael:
                      "Frieze and Hepflinger."
  21. +1
    11 January 2019 15: 40
    Returning to the Bayern-class battleships.
    If there is no reception against the British fleet, this does not mean that the Baerns are useless ships.
    It is generally accepted that they are a masterpiece of engineering that has not shown itself in battle. However, for another opponent, a four or even a pair of such battleships could very well turn out to be a queen, making a checkmate. I mean tsarist Russia.
    If the Albion-type operation had been postponed a year earlier, and carried out with the decisive goals of capturing Reval and Helsinfors .... Most likely, the Russian fleet would have been forced to take an unequal battle with Hochseeflotte, and then the 38-cm / 45 would have read the verdict post-Tsushima error MGSH. The opinion of the community on this issue is interesting.
    1. +1
      11 January 2019 16: 00
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      If the Albion-type operation had been postponed a year earlier, and carried out with the decisive goals of capturing Reval and Helsinfors ...

      That the Germans would have grabbed the epic lyuli, on which, in fact, the matter would have ended. Do not extrapolate the collapse of the Russian army and navy of the 1917 year to the 1916 year
      1. 0
        11 January 2019 17: 12
        belay Germans grabbed lyuley? - how? I had in mind to save half a million soldiers from Verdun and send them to the Baltic states, providing EVERYTHING to the Hochseeflotte. IMHO - Khan RI without options
        1. +1
          11 January 2019 17: 41
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          Germans grabbed lyuley? - how?

          Look at the operations of the Hochzeflotte on breaking into the Gulf of Riga in 1915 - everything will become clear to you :)))))) The huge fleet, against virtually impromptu defense, practically without coastal batteries, is opposed to the Germans by a single Dotsushima EDB GK which is not able to destroy its shells to the German ships ...
          They barely broke through, and not at the first attempt. And to climb on the TsMAP under the fire of the stationary batteries of Peter the Great Fortress with the support of both Baltic Fleet line brigades .... Good luck :))))))))
          1. 0
            11 January 2019 17: 58
            Generally not clear on the Gulf of Riga. Hell, I’ll have to write twenty posts so that they don’t scold for the congress what God forbid there will be time - nafluzhu. But plus half a million soldiers Ludendorff, IMHO = Khan RI. Even without landing)
            1. -1
              11 January 2019 18: 08
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              Generally not clear on the Gulf of Riga.

              Here is the last article in the series with conclusions, below are links to other articles
              https://topwar.ru/132363-chetyre-boya-slavy-ili-effektivnost-minno-artilleriyskih-poziciy-okonchanie.html
              True, I pointed out there that Sevastopoli were able to stop the Hochzeflotte before the Bayerns appeared, but this, in fact, just in order not to provoke srach in the comments
              1. -1
                11 January 2019 18: 21
                I read about half a million additional soldiers Ludendorff and Hoffmann are not refuted by this. plus my opinion: Sevastopol is much weaker, not just like Koenig, but even Seydlitz. In order not to provoke a srach in the comments I answer to issue the post "Sevastopol is a complete mistake of Russian shipbuilding"
                1. +1
                  11 January 2019 18: 50
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  plus my opinion: Sevastopol is much weaker not just Koenig, but even Seidlitz

                  Alas, it’s not based on anything, because Sevastopol is obviously much stronger than Seidlitz :)))
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  In order not to provoke a srach in the comments I answer to issue the post "Sevastopol is a complete mistake of Russian shipbuilding"

                  Maybe it’s better to do it? :)))) I won’t leave that for you :)))) And believe me, I have enough factual material to not leave stone unturned from your article
                  1. +1
                    11 January 2019 18: 55
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And believe me, I have enough factual material not to leave stone unturned from your article

                    And a whole series of articles refuting the popular thesis that "Sevastopoli" sucks ...)))
                    1. 0
                      11 January 2019 19: 20
                      Quote: arturpraetor
                      And a whole series of articles refuting the popular thesis that "Sevastopoli" sucks ...)))

                      Yes, but since then I have learned something else and something new :))))))
                      1. +1
                        11 January 2019 19: 38
                        And here is more detailed, if possible winked
                      2. +1
                        11 January 2019 19: 40
                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        And here is more detailed, if possible

                        Well, for example, a detailed description of the results of the shooting at Chesme and the compartment that simulates the reservation of promising LCs - after the revolution
                      3. +1
                        11 January 2019 19: 42
                        I generally hinted at an addition article to that cycle ... feel Bo has recently covered the dreadnought topic again, and therefore any addition to the already 100500 times re-read materials would be interesting bully
                      4. +1
                        11 January 2019 21: 56
                        Super, I would be grateful for the opportunity to argue.
                        And then I have one negative about them like: "One of the leading artillery officers of the organizational and tactical department of the MGSh AE Koltovsky wrote:" With the introduction of a heavier projectile, we had to reduce its initial velocity to 762 m / s. pressure in the channel of the gun no longer corresponds to the original design in terms of calculating the longitudinal strength. Hence, abnormal rapid wear of the guns and loss of combat accuracy are obtained. , a projectile that is strong by itself does not receive proper use when fired ""
                        Stati read everything until he became convinced.
                      5. -1
                        11 January 2019 22: 52
                        Can:

                        Shot No. 19 (firing on July 2, 1920), against compartment No. 2 and plate No. 3 (370mm, extreme right), 12 "armor-piercing unloaded projectile" model 1911 ", reduced to the nominal weight of 471 kg, POC plant, batch 1914 No. 528, a charge of gunpowder brand ShchD-0,5, 7 batches of manufacture 1916, for 8 "/ 45 guns with a weight of 40 kg and an impact speed of 620 m / s.
                        Subject to testing: the armor-piercing ability of 12 "armor-piercing unloaded projectile" sample 1911 ", and the resistance of 370 mm of side armor and 50 mm of the bevel of the lower deck behind it. Impact point from the right edge 43 cm, from the lower edge 137 cm.
                        The shell pierced through the side armor with the jacket, 50mm bevel of the lower deck, hold bulkhead (6mm), 25mm foundation sheet of the compartment and went into the earthen mound of the foundation. No shell fragments found. The diameter of the through hole is from 30 cm to 34 cm, the outlet is 50 cm. The hole in the bevel of the lower deck is 96 cm by 30 cm, 2,5 cm from the shelf. The shirt behind the armor is rotated and the edges are bent inwards to the width of the spacing.
                        The horizontal groove bar is slightly bulged with the lower edge, but the rivets are intact, the bolt against the place of impact is broken, the rest are intact. The last stand is corrugated and bulged inward. The outer corner of this rack is torn and bent inward along with the shirt, the inner corner of the rack is dented and torn, all the rivets of the square that fastens the rack to the bevel of the lower deck are cut off. The fragments of the rear 12mm bulkhead and beams under the middle deck are slightly dented, rivets in a square fixing the rear bulkhead to the lower deck are ripped off, the rivet heads are damaged. The edge of the plate against the bulge is bulging out to about 1 cm.
                        The second bottom has departed. Nine guzheny are cut in a square under a bevel of the lower deck, one rivet is ripped in a square under a bevel of a deck in an extreme beam. In the rear bulkhead, a shell was torn by a shell across the width of the spation and about one meter in height, and there are also holes from the fragments of the bevel armor, the edges of the angles of the rear bulkhead racks are slightly dented. 14 guzhenov were knocked out in the square behind the rear bulkhead, fastening it to the lower deck.

                        Andrey from Chelyabinsk concludes that the shell "has no analogue in the world" once the drain has broken through. And why can not it be concluded that the armor "has no analogue in the world", since the drain was pierced. wassat
                      6. +1
                        11 January 2019 23: 30
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Andrey from Chelyabinsk concludes that the shell "has no analogue in the world" once the drain has broken through. And why can not it be concluded that the armor "has no analogue in the world", since the drain was pierced.

                        The high quality of Russian shells was recognized, including by the British, but not by Andrey Shmelev))

                        No, dear, you will forgive me, but rewriting with you begins to remind me of a waste of time. You will try to interpret almost any fact in your favor, even if it says otherwise, and do everything to spoil the RIF - at least at cost, at least for ships, at least for shells, at least somehow)) And at the same time making erroneous statements - including the same 9 million for "Thunderbolt". Not, I understand, quite a popular sport, but I will not participate in this. I made my opinion a long time ago, and on the basis of a fairly detailed study of the materiel, and not "I grabbed it anywhere and carried the light of truth to the masses."
                      7. 0
                        12 January 2019 08: 35
                        High quality Russian shells - I admit.

                        But you write about "ABNORMALLY high".

                        BUT: there is such a technique: quality needs proof in relation to the test method. For example, was the test armor good. The answer - if specifically about "Sevastopol" - the testers themselves decided that, to put it mildly, this was not the merit of the projectile, but the disaster of protection, no?

                        I just mean such cases when in the USSR they experienced armor penetration when firing at steel FROM. Threat. I asked a question on what steel is testing the armor penetration of shells now. And I thought - but this is another topic and not here.
                      8. -1
                        12 January 2019 09: 21
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        The answer is - if specifically about "Sevastopol" - the testers themselves decided that, to put it mildly, this was not the merit of the shell, but the disaster of protection, no?

                        Complete ignorance of materiel is detected. It was the PROJECT that was tested, not the armor. And the verdict on the projectile was "excellent", the questions were only to the pipe of the naval department. But the weakness of the defense of Sevastopol was only a concomitant conclusion on these tests
                      9. 0
                        12 January 2019 12: 46
                        Colleague, it seems to me that you need to be "engaged" in order not to understand that both were tested (it cannot be otherwise, and it is because of who started it and paid for it). In addition to the word "myself", give more arguments
                      10. 0
                        12 January 2019 09: 17
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        And why it is impossible to conclude that there is no "analogue in the world" armor, since the drain has been pierced.

                        For example, because Russian armor was tested shortly before the Russian-Japanese war, and, which is characteristic, showed brilliant results. The Russians 305-mm were weaker than the Japanese, however, they pierced the British armor on 178 mm inclusive. The Japanese shells (armor-piercing) could not show anything like that - one case when a cork was knocked out of an 229 mm plate, and one case of breakdown of an 102 mm armor plate. I warn you right away - the Ijuin instant fuse was far from all the shells and did not always work (a bunch of unexploded shells in Arthur after January 27 1904 r)
                        In general, we have no reason to consider the RIF armor to be seriously inferior to modern English or German armor. Well, apart from your desire to defraud the RIF, but this is not the basis lol
                      11. 0
                        12 January 2019 12: 48
                        Let's start with this:
                      12. -1
                        12 January 2019 14: 09
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Let's start with this:

                        We started. Will there be any comments? :))))))
                      13. 0
                        12 January 2019 16: 40
                        There are two options:
                        1.Long clarification of the relationship)
                        I wanted to start it with trial questions:
                        -Do you agree with the correctness of the specified data?
                        -Do you agree that the given figures became the basis for determining the thickness of the armor of "Sevastopol"?

                        2. I agree (sincerely) that at the moment Andrei from Chelyabinsk has the widest selection of information on the topics raised and humbly ask him to issue a post
                        about the development of armor penetration of guns in the years 1900-1918.
                        I guarantee a sea of ​​constructive comments with tricky questions, which, IMHO, will help us all sort out a little better in the subject.
                        I am for the second. Very very )
                      14. -1
                        12 January 2019 18: 31
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        -Do you agree with the correctness of the specified data?

                        As far as I understand, we see a plate with armor-piercing guns of the EWE era, where the dotted line is Japanese guns. Or am I still wrong? If - I'm right, well ... ready to agree
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Do you agree that these figures became the basis for determining the thickness of the armor of the Sevastopol?

                        Of course, I do not agree, since it was determined from completely different parameters
                      15. +1
                        12 January 2019 19: 52
                        Well, since Andrei from Chelyabinsk chooses srach in the comments instead of expressing his wisdom in a separate post) I thought
                        Can you give other system information on armor penetration actually existed in the Republic of Ingushetia for 1905-1908?
                        This information should explain the 203 mm turret armor and other horror of Sevastopol's defense.
                      16. -1
                        13 January 2019 10: 23
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Can you give other systematic information on armor penetration that actually existed in the Republic of Ingushetia for 1905-1908 years?

                        Did you hear about the de Marr formula? :)))))) So they used it.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        This information should explain the 203 mm turret armor and other horror of Sevastopol's defense.

                        Promising 305-mm / 52 with 331,7 kg projectile, as originally planned.
                      17. -1
                        13 January 2019 12: 06
                        Yes, but do you understand that this formula does not give satisfactory results?
                        It does not take into account the FORM of the projectile (inside and outside) and anything else laughing
                        I purely want to pin you up: and what is the armor resistance coefficient, which one do you take and why?

                        So we learn materiel together drinks

                        Well, ok, and soon we’ll look at the effectiveness of 331,7 for 305 mm / 52 and the use of the above plate in RI hi

                        Colleague, you did not answer your opinion on the BASIC question: how much time will pass between a meeting with a steel plate and the beginning of detonation of explosives in a 305-mm projectile of 1911 equipped with a fuse of 1913 angry
                      18. 0
                        13 January 2019 12: 21
                        [quote = andrey shmelev] Yes, do you understand that this formula does not give satisfactory results?
                        Oh, and the whole world on it considered armor penetration and not in the know :))))))) In fact, the formula, of course, is imperfect, but the joke is that it was used
                        By the way, your schedule is drawn up just with its use :)))))))
                        [quote = andrey shmelev] I really want to pin you up [/ quote]
                        They stabbed themselves - they took her in the actual quality of the armor.
                        [quote = andrey shmelev] Colleague, you did not answer your opinion on the FIRST question: how long will it take between the meeting with the steel plate and the start of detonation of explosives at the 305-mm projectile of the 1911 model, [/ quote]
                        He is unprincipled
                      19. 0
                        13 January 2019 12: 50
                        laughing laughing
                        Colleague, I will disappoint you very much. The actual quality of the armor is taken for this formula according to the results of field tests of a particular projectile for a specific armor (empirical coefficient). You are not able to answer which coefficient value is used in your formula in this case. negative
                        About the schedule - they offended themselves. Yes, to draw up such a graph, the indicated formula is used, BUT in the order of interpolation of the empirical values ​​already obtained fool
                        The principle of the question lies in the fact that you do not understand the education system of the value of armor penetration of HE shells, therefore, you incorrectly interpret the results of firing tongue

                        "You ran aground, Silver" (c)
                      20. 0
                        13 January 2019 13: 33
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Colleague, I will disappoint you very much. The actual quality of the armor is taken for this formula according to the results of field tests of a particular projectile for a specific armor (empirical coefficient).

                        Yeah, but the fact that in fact any armor (and even its individual parties) is MANDATORY checked by shooting - it’s a military secret for you, right? :))))))))
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        You are not able to answer which coefficient value is used in your formula

                        Andrew, one more time. We are discussing what data our ancestors used when calculating the sufficiency of armor protection of a ship, in this case, Sevastopol. So, I explain to you in white Russian that these were armor penetration formulas adjusted for the actual quality of the armor. But the specific meanings - yes, I do not know this (I can only estimate empirically, but this will be my calculation, not a historical fact), only what does this have to do with the topic under discussion?
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        About the schedule - they offended themselves. Yes, to draw up such a graph, the indicated formula is used, BUT in the order of interpolation of the empirical values ​​already obtained

                        In fact, you are mistaken a little more than completely, because there was no practice and could not be any practice of shelling Russian armor from Japanese cannons - there is sheer empiricism. For Russians - yes, the actual data was used there, but very roughly, because there were NO complete tests for example, 305-mm shells (did not find funds for them), so they were counted according to other calibers, AND ABSOLUTELY SAME FOR armor of Sevastopol and 305-mm / 52 guns with 331,7 kg of shells :)))) The shells are the same, the quality of the armor is known during the experimental shelling.

                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        The principle of the question lies in the fact that you do not understand the education system of the value of armor penetration of HE shells, therefore, you incorrectly interpret the results of firing

                        I do not interpret the results of the firing, but I tell you what shells in Japan and England our high-explosive shells would be considered
                        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                        "You ran aground, Silver" (c)

                        I have no doubt that "from the height of your knowledge" you see it so :)))))
                      21. +1
                        13 January 2019 15: 53
                        bully caught :))))

                        For Russians - yes, the actual data was used there, but very roughly, because there were NO complete tests for example, 305 mm shells (did not find funds for them), so they were counted according to other calibers, AND ABSOLUTELY SAME FOR armor of Sevastopol and 305 mm / 52 guns with 331,7 kg of shells :))))

                        Now I don't even need to prove that the initial data on the projectile resistance of the armor when designing "Sevastopol" were, to put it mildly, not very good, the Great Namesake wrote it himself, well done, keep on burning, I expect from you a total defeat of the qualities of 305-mm / 52 drinks
                      22. +1
                        12 January 2019 21: 26
                        Since the Great Namesake does not want to give here his info about the experienced shooting, I will share a little more of mine so that my comments are complete:

                        Between the end of 1918 and the beginning of 1919 the British tested the Russian projectiles against 8 "(20.3 cm) Cemented (face-hardened) armor at 20 degrees to the normal, this being the condition used to test the British 12" (30.5 cm) Mark VIIa (Greenboy) projectiles. The projectile holed the plate but broke up at 1,447 fps (441 mps) - there is also such a topic about 12 "/ 52 and BS ar. 1911, that is, a hole without penetration in a 203-mm plate from a distance of more than 14 km - according to British data ) and the same, but from a distance of 18300 meters according to Russian data.Taken from Nathan Okun.

                        This is clearly better than the impudent ones (here the RIF compares relatively):
                        Quoting from the Memorandum as detailed in "Battlecruisers" by John Roberts:
                        "From the trials with AP shell with cap so far carried out by the Ordnance Board against KC armor, it is clear that when striking at angles greater than 20deg to the normal there is very little chance of any AP shell in the service carrying its burster through such armor at any fighting range, as the shell would break up in passing through the armor. Generally speaking [,] capped AP shell, even when filled with salt, may be expected to beak up when striking KC armor of half caliber thickness at 30deg to the normal.

                        But against the backdrop of 305 / 50 Fritz, IMHO, not very

                        Without a crap, I think that at the time of design, Sevastopol was very good, but the overload, which increased the draft by 1 meter, long-term construction, etc. led to the fact that it is sharply inferior to the best of the battleships that appeared only for six months to one and a half years later, which made him strategically erroneous - but that's the topic of another post, since the Great namesake chose srach in the comments.

                        The methodology for testing the Sevastopol themselves was, I think, a bit of a curve, for example, the speed was determined by the rotation of the turbines. So I wonder if, for example, was the methodology for testing guns and shells conscientious? Therefore, I argue with "obvious" things. Fortunately, there is data for other conclusions.

                        Summary: good "Sevastopol" was not lucky with a potential enemy, since the Germans were objectively the best in Europe and not fick like the Great Namesake to collect a bit of what to dig deeper - it is better to learn. "Bayern" will confirm this)))

                        I would be grateful for the refutation of any of my comments.
                        Refuted comment = I have one more clever thought and one less less thought.

                        Thank you for the discussion about prices) Then I take my leave hi
                      23. 0
                        13 January 2019 10: 21
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        that is, a hole without breaking through in an 203-mm plate with a distance of more than 14 km - according to British data

                        Wrong. The shell pierced the slab and collapsed. The causes of destruction can be very different, up to the marriage of a particular projectile. It's funny, by the way, to see the test results of 1918 - the armor on "Sevastopoli" was made "a little" earlier.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        But against the backdrop of 305 / 50 Fritz, IMHO, not very

                        From the quote this does not follow in any way
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        The methodology for testing the Sevastopol themselves was, I think, a bit of a curve, for example, the speed was determined by the rotation of the turbines. So I wonder if, for example, was the methodology for testing guns and shells conscientious?

                        Gods, what a horror :)))))) Firstly, the tests were carried out according to an abbreviated program in connection with the war. Secondly, it was not crooked, but limited (as, by the way, the German ships did), that is, no one was engaged in fraud, and it is unreasonable to suspect such stupidity. The manufacturer has an interest in cheating tests, but the customer determines the test conditions! Thirdly, experiments on the shooting of Sevastopol were carried out BEFORE the war, that is, without any restrictions.
                        In general, an urgent advice - take up the materiel. And finally, start to THINK about what you read, and not try to adjust the facts to the result you need.
                      24. -1
                        13 January 2019 11: 51
                        The projectile holed the plate but broke up is a colleague, Nathan Okun has two terms, Nawal limit and Hole limit - the first means breaking through a detonating projectile, the second means creating a hole in the armor plate. Regarding the study of materiel - this will also be useful to you
                      25. 0
                        13 January 2019 12: 17
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        The projectile holed the plate but broke up is a colleague, Nathan Okun has two terms, Nawal limit and Hole limit - the first means breaking through a detonating projectile, the second means creating a hole in the armor plate.

                        Yes to me. To be honest, it’s purple that Nathan Okun has a direct link to the test results document http://www.gwpda.org/naval/adm186_189.htm
                        And yes, the projectile really collapsed, and was not capable of detonation, but what's the point? As I said, this can be a banal marriage of the projectile. By the way, you never brought up a source that says that the armor that the British beat on in 1918 and the armor that was fired at on Chesme are of the same age. And without this, the equivalence of tests, about which you "care" so much, is a little lame - the English QS could be stronger simply due to the later release
                      26. +1
                        13 January 2019 12: 29
                        the English COP could be stronger simply because of a later release - let's see if there is data on a change in the type of armor in the CF
                        it can be a banal projectile marriage - it’s the same as saying that all the armor on Chesme is defective

                        Thank you very much for the link - I will study and analyze - we'll see there
                      27. +1
                        13 January 2019 12: 39
                        Yes to me. honestly, violet, what’s Nathan Okun’s feel
                        We read what is written there:
                        The projectile ... penetrated intact at 1,615 fps (493 mps).
                        So the data is the same.
                        The current initial speed you have indicated means that the penetration distance of a 203-mm plate with a capable of detonation projectile arr 1911 = about 10250 meters.
                        Which perfectly coincides with the possibility of forming a through hole in a 203-mm plate at a distance of about 13250 meters.

                        good
                      28. +1
                        13 January 2019 12: 40
                        oh typo 14 meters
                      29. 0
                        13 January 2019 11: 52
                        Horror creepy - I will write a post - defeat) hi
                      30. +1
                        13 January 2019 12: 18
                        Damn, for some reason comments are not regularly like, duplicating the meaning just in case:

                        The projectile holed the plate but broke up - Nathan Okuna has two terms
                        Naval limit - the projectile passes inside in a state capable of detonation
                        and Hole limit - a hole appears in the armor plate
                        He's writing holed and not just broke, namely broke up

                        Let's talk about cheating separately? In the meantime, is it not easier to temporarily assume
                        that everyone is honest, but the brazen armor is stronger
                  2. 0
                    11 January 2019 22: 06
                    Well, then, so be it)
    2. 0
      11 January 2019 16: 10
      plus 100500 besides the fact that the Germans had to start methodically wetting the Baltic Fleet and planting troops since 1915 - this is not even a post, but books, but, IMHO, start the Germans instead of the Verdun meat tube and other garbage on the Western Front to really wet Russia from the Baltic states and Baltic - 1917 happened already in 1916

      Bavaria is not a masterpiece, just a cool battleship for its time. Now, if instead of a casemate a monolithic belt of 350 mm, if 200 mm were lowered to a height of yes and also brought to 350 mm, it’s lazy to assume that there, without changing the metacentre, you can throw it on the deck (500 tons you’ll love) - that’s been would really imba

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