Military Review

American frigate Oliver H. Perry

47


In the 70s of the twentieth century, at the height of the Cold War, before the American fleet the challenge was to ensure the safety of transoceanic convoys on the way from the New World to Europe. In the event of an armed conflict with the Soviet Union, this route was especially vulnerable. Due to the successful actions of the marine missile aviation and submarines of the USSR, American bases in Europe would be cut off, and countries that are part of the NATO bloc, without support, could not resist the Soviet Union for a long time tank armies.

According to the results of discussions, an opinion was formed in the Ministry of the Navy (Department of the NAVY) about a new escort ship.
It was decided to base the concept of the Knox-class frigate (KNOX-class frigate), to the limit by saturating the design with modern radio-electronic means and rocket weapons. Like its predecessor, the new combat ship was originally designed for operations far from the coast, had good seaworthiness, transoceanic cruising range (4500 miles at 20 knots) and could operate effectively both in convoys and aircraft carrier connections, and in a single trip. The total displacement of ships of this class was 3600 tons, and later, during the modernization increased to 4000 ... 4200 tons.

An important criterion for evaluating the project was its low cost and manufacturability. The design of the ship was simple, like a bucket of bolts, and focused on high-volume production - the Americans seriously intended to make the frigates the main escort ships of the Navy, replacing them with escort frigates of the Knox type and destroyers of the URO of the Farragut and Charles F. Adams type.



In 1977, the lead frigate of the Oliver Hazard Perry class (OLIVER H. PERRY class), named after the nineteenth-century American naval commander, entered service. The ship received the operational code FFG-7 (frigate, guided weapons), which emphasized its special status - “frigate with guided missile weapons”.
Externally, the ship turned out very nice - with concise lines and a sharp "clipper" nose. To increase manufacturability and reduce the cost of installation and operation of equipment, the superstructure had “straight” shapes, and the forecastle, в hull-long, made all the frigate decks parallel to the design waterline.

American frigate Oliver H. Perry


In an effort to reduce the cost of the ship, engineers went on to further simplify - General Electric's gas-turbine powerplant, to the detriment of survivability, was made single-shaft. The combination of two gas turbines LM2500, provides output power 41 000 l. with. The time required to exit to full power mode when starting from a cold state is estimated to be 12-15 minutes. Each turbine is enclosed in a heat and sound insulation casing and placed on depreciated platforms along with all auxiliary mechanisms and equipment. The power plant of the frigate Oliver H. Perry is completely unified with the power plants of cruisers and destroyers of the US Navy.
For maneuvering in narrow areas and harbors, as well as for emergency running, in the event of a power plant failure, the frigate is equipped with two propulsion and steering columns of the Azipod type, hp 350 power. each Auxiliary thrusters are located in the central part, approximately in 40 meters from the bow of the ship.

weaponry

The main objectives of "Oliver H. Perry" were anti-submarine and air defense of naval forces in the near zone. According to the American concept of the use of the Navy, surface targets were the prerogative of carrier-based aviation.


"One-armed bandit" Mark-13


To repel aviation attacks, a Mark-13 one-gang launcher was installed in the bow of the ship. Despite its “one-handedness”, the system performed well on the destroyers “Chardz F. Adams” and atomic cruisers of the type “California”. The lightweight Mark-13, due to its low inertia, was rapidly induced in azimuth and in height, which compensated for its relatively low rate of fire.
In the cellar of the launcher (external drum - 24 positions, internal - 16) were 36 ready to launch anti-aircraft missiles Standard-1MR (medium range) with an effective range of air targets - 30-35 km. Warhead - high-explosive fragmentation Мk90, weight 61 kg.
The remaining four cells occupied anti-ship missiles RGM-84 "Harpoon".
The air defense of the frigate, frankly, was weak, which subsequently led to major troubles on the Stark frigate. The fire control system Mk92 initially provided simultaneous shelling of no more than two targets at medium and high altitudes, only the sixth modification of the Mk92 added the ability to fire low-flying targets.

When choosing an artillery gun for Oliver H. Perry, the Italian firm Otobreda unexpectedly won the competition. Americans forgot about patriotism and signed a contract with Italy for the supply of a party of universal naval guns Melara 76mm / L62 Allargato. Unremarkable artillery system caliber 76 mm. Rate of Fire - 80 shots / min.

For self-defense of a frigate against low-flying anti-ship missiles, a six-barreled Mark-15 "Phalanx" automatic caliber 20 mm is installed at the rear of the superstructure.
One of the drawbacks of Oliver H. Perry is the poor placement of artillery. The weapon has limited firing sectors: “Phalanx” protects only the rear hemisphere, and OTO Melara gunners must think seven times before firing so as not to touch the chimney and not to tear down the antenna posts on the superstructure roof.



To detect submarines, the frigate was equipped with a towed Array towed sonar station SQR-19, a SQS-56 underwater gas gun, and the Mark-32 ASW anti-submarine complex of two 324 mm torpedo tubes.
But the main means of anti-submarine warfare were two helicopters of the LAMPS III (Light airborne multipurpose system) system, for which a hangar and a helipad were organized in the stern of the frigate.

Here, the following should be noted: the first 17 frigates were built in the “short” version, which excluded basing large helicopters on them, only one SH-2 “Sea Sprite” was placed in the hangar.
All the detection systems, EW systems, and the Oliver Perry armament complex are linked together by the combat information management system NTDS (Naval Tactical Data System).


Spank


As the developers did not try, the laws of nature could not be deceived. The small size of the frigate makes itself felt - already with a six-pronged storm, with longitudinal rolling, the fairing of the dusting gasGS is partially exposed, and then an even more unpleasant effect occurs - a bottom slamming is formed and the ship is completely overwhelmed with water (firstly, rises on the crest of a wave, exposing the bottom, and then, thousands of tons of metal fall down, causing a giant waterfall of spray, a very beautiful sight). This makes it impossible to use helicopters and reduces the efficiency of the hydroacoustic station. Dynamic loads can greatly damage the aluminum structure of the frigate, it is necessary to reduce the course. By the way, low speed is another drawback of Oliver H. Perry, with no more than 29 nodes at full speed. On the other hand, with the development of rocket weapons, speed became less important for escort ships (according to the obsolete rules of naval tactics, escort ships should have had the opportunity to develop greater speed than the main forces of the convoy).

Battle loss

On a hot Arabian evening, 17, May 1987, the US frigate USS "Stark" (FFG-31) patrolled in 65-85 miles to Nord-Ost from the coast of Bahrain along the battlefield of the Iran-Iraq war. In the 20: 45, the Coontz air defense destroyer, located near the destroyer, reported on an approaching aerial target, obviously an Iraqi aircraft: “285 course, degrees, 120 miles”. A minute later, this information was duplicated by the E-3 AWASS aircraft of the Air Force of Saudi Arabia. In 20: 58 from a distance of 70 miles “Stark” took the target to accompany its radar. The frigate at that time was moving at a speed of 10 nodes, all systems were put on alert # XXUMX (detection means and weapons were ready for use, personnel were at combat posts).
Commander "Starcom", Commander Glenn Brindel climbed the bridge, but, not finding anything suspicious, he returned to the cabin - the Iraqis beat the Iranians every day, why wonder? The US Navy does not participate in the conflict.

Suddenly, the operator of the post of observation of the air situation reported to the BIC: "The distance to the target is 45 miles, the target follows the course to the ship!" On the destroyer “Coontz” also became agitated - in 21: 03 the frigate received a warning: “Iraqi aircraft. Course 066 hail, distance 45 miles, speed 335 knots (620 km / h), height 3.000 feet (915 m). Going straight to Stark! ”

By this time news the approach of the Iraqi aircraft has already reached the USS La Salle headquarters ship. From there they requested Stark: “Guys, there’s some kind of airplane flying around. Do you have everything OK? ”Having received an affirmative answer, they calmed down on“ La Salle ”- everything is under control.
In 21: 06, the Stark electronic intelligence system has detected the work of the radar of the aircraft from the 27 distance of miles. In 21: 09, an air observation post sent a radio message to an "unknown plane" and asked for its intentions. After 37 seconds, Stark repeated the request. Both appeals were broadcast on the international code of signals and at the frequency adopted for this (243 MHz and 121,5 MHz), but there was no response from the Iraqi aircraft. At the same Iraqi "Mirage" sharply turned to the right and increased speed. This meant that he lay down on the combat course and began the attack.



On the Starke, the combat alarm was played, and after five seconds, the first Ekoset rocket flew into the ship. After about half a minute, there was a second blow, this time the Exoceta warhead worked out properly, an explosion of a centner of explosives smashed the personnel compartment, killing 37 sailors. The fire engulfed the military information center, all sources of electricity were out of order, the frigate lost its course.
Realizing what had happened, the destroyer “Coontz” screamed at all radio frequencies: “Raise F-15! Shoot down Shoot down the Iraqi jackal! ”But while at the Saudi airbase they were deciding who would give a delicate order, the Iraqi Mirage flew away with impunity. The motives of the Iraqi side remained unclear: a mistake or deliberate provocation. Representatives of Iraq stated that the Mirage fighter pilot F.1, a well-trained pilot who knows English and the international aviation language, did not hear any calls from an American frigate. He attacked the target because it was in a war zone, in which, as he knew, there should not have been any own or neutral ships.


Damage to Stark


As for the beaten “Stark” - with the help of the “Coontz'a” who came to the rescue, he somehow got to Bahrain, where from in the month of 2 he left under his own power (!) For repairs in the USA.
A year later, on April 14 1988, in the Persian Gulf, the frigate “Samuel B. Roberts” got into a similar situation, having hit a mine. And this time the crew managed to keep the ship afloat. Oliver H. Perry type frigates turned out to be very tenacious, despite their small size and aluminum deck construction.

Evaluations and prospects

In total, in the 1975 for the 2004 year, the Oliver H. Perry frigate was built in various countries in the 71, including:
USA - 55 frigates, of which 4 for the Australian Navy
Spain - 6 frigates (Santa Maria-class)
Taiwan - 8 frigates (Cheng Kung- class)
Australia - 2 frigate (Adelaide-class), in addition to four purchased in the US

According to the results of the combat use of the Olivers, it turned out that the creators wanted too much from a small ship. Two days before the Starck incident, exercises in the Gulf of Mexico were conducted to repel missile attacks. A French Navy ship was invited as a gunman. During the shooting, it turned out that Ajdis-cruiser "Taykonderoga" guaranteed to shoot down the RCC "Exochet", "Oliver H. Perry" - no. At present, “serious” anti-missile defense missions are performed by Aegis destroyers of the Orly Burk type (61 destroyer according to 2012 data) are much larger and more expensive ships. And for antiterrorist tasks in coastal waters, specialized ships of the LCS type are acquired.

By the beginning of the twenty-first century, the Mark-13 launcher and SM-1MR missiles were declared ineffective and outdated. In 2003, the dismantling of these systems began, and instead the frigates "Oliver H. Perry" got ... a hole in the deck. Yes, now ships of this type do not carry any rocket weapons. The American admirals reasoned that a three-inch cannon and a sea hawk SH-60 helicopters are enough to fight the drug couriers and pirates. It is wasteful to drive large warships to the coast of Somalia. For helicopters, Americans just in case purchased a shipment of Penguin anti-ship missiles from Sweden.
Another new role of the Olivers is the delivery of humanitarian aid, a ship of this type sailed to Georgia in 2008.
Since the beginning of the 2000-ies there has been a constant withdrawal of these ships from the US Navy, someone is sent for scrap, someone is sent to overseas countries. For example, the Olivers bought Bahrain, Pakistan, Egypt, Poland bought the frigate 2, and Turkey bought the most — 8 units for operations in the Black Sea. The Turkish Olivers were upgraded, the old Mark-13 gave way to the vertical Mark-41 launcher, in which eight cells are placed 32 anti-aircraft missiles ESSM.

Frigates of this type of 35 years "defend democracy" in all hot spots of the globe, but, despite their solid fighting qualities, they have a rather inglorious fighting история. Now the "Olivers" are transferring the watch to warships of new types.
"Oliver H. Perry" - everything will be X.


And this is Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. In the background - the memorial to the victims of "Arizona", the frigate just passes over the battleship lying at the bottom




Refueling in the ocean



Pirates are caught. Pay attention to the funny weapon "sea lions"



Armed to the teeth baby can pass from St. Petersburg to New York without refueling


Author:
47 comments
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  1. matex
    matex 9 June 2012 09: 20
    -5
    Too much demanded and expected from this "baby" but as they say miracles do not happen and the stingy pays twice. They were chasing cheapness and in the end I had to write them off and replace them with more expensive destroyers, I think it's stupid.
    1. Rider
      Rider 9 June 2012 16: 46
      +3
      Did the large Navy of the USSR Navy work better?
      "Oliver H. Perry" still has no analogues in the world. So many weapons, electronics and fuel on a small, cheap frigate. To build such ships you need TALENT
      1. mind1954
        mind1954 10 June 2012 20: 21
        0
        Their talent was different! First won the competition for this project
        due to the low price, and when the contract was signed and started
        to the construction of the prototype, they requested another 400 million $ from Congress!
        There was nowhere to go - they gave !!!
        1. neri73-r
          neri73-r 10 June 2012 21: 03
          0
          That's who our defense industry complex is learning from !!! Only ours at first exaggerate the amount, because then they will not give it! Well, our "like everyone else" cannot! laughing
        2. Santa Fe
          10 June 2012 21: 51
          0
          Quote: mind1954
          and when the contract was signed and started
          to the construction of the prototype, they requested another 400 million $ from Congress!

          It is difficult to understand what is at stake. 400 million - what is the price of what year? How much was the lead ship?
          The exact numbers are given here:
          The 1973 estimate for a total program of 5O ships was $ 3.2 billion, with an average unit cost of $ 63.8 million. The Department of Defense estimated at September 30, 1978, that the cost of a 52-ship FFG-7 program would be $ 10.1 billion, an average cost per ship of $ 194 million.
          Literally: in 1978 prices of the year, the cost of a program of 52 frigates is $ 10, billions, the average cost of each frigate is 194 mln.
  2. Svistoplyaskov
    Svistoplyaskov 9 June 2012 10: 55
    +3
    An interesting article, good photos. Thanks to the author.
    By the way, why do the "cats" have poisonous blue weapons?
    1. mga04
      mga04 9 June 2012 12: 19
      +3
      Exercises, weapons - layouts, for safety. Suddenly, someone fights with a fright.
  3. Dust
    Dust 9 June 2012 11: 59
    -5
    The shitty boat turned out, frankly speaking - and there is a hole in the old woman ...
  4. Vito
    Vito 9 June 2012 12: 15
    +5
    OLEG, Thank you for the interesting article about the working AMERICAN horse, the frigate "OLI-PERI". Beautiful photos complemented your article. Any project has its pros and cons! I still think that the ship turned out not bad (price, quality and quantity), the series was quite large! It was a good ship for its time, considering that several countries still operate this model, periodically upgrading it. He served HIS with interest. As they say, small but daring. Best regards, VLADIMIR. drinks
    1. Santa Fe
      9 June 2012 17: 53
      +7
      Thank you for your attention, Vladimir. "Oliver Perry" is an interesting ship, there was something to tell about drinks

      It disturbs me that the children on the site are little interested in technology. They like to discuss for the hundredth time what McFaul said.
      1. Vito
        Vito 9 June 2012 18: 35
        0
        SWEET_SIXTEENOnce again, I welcome you. I think there’s nothing much to worry about. Politics and politicians, wars and weapons always go side by side, it is an integral part of one from the other. Good weapons and equipment always cause interest and respect and jokes here, as they say out of place! And ABOUT POLITICIANS at least you can laugh. They are like a lightning rod when passions run high! drinks If it’s not difficult to print photos more often, they warm my soul!
        1. 755962
          755962 9 June 2012 21: 38
          +2
          Oleg, thank you for the article. A very interesting ship. One of the most common types of modern warships. The number of units built in the series is 71 frigates. For 35 years now they have been in service with the naval forces of 8 countries of the world. Write more. I will wait for your publications.
  5. Hauptmannzimermann
    Hauptmannzimermann 9 June 2012 12: 48
    +4
    Turkish frigate in Aden. I apologize for the not-so-good shot, drinks
  6. Kars
    Kars 10 June 2012 12: 28
    0
    Something like a quiet discussion is taking place. It's a pity that Frost was banned, I almost miss him. Is there something like a Perry frigate, a one-time exchange coin of high intensity conflict and his chances of surviving with a massive missile strike are minimal? Or about armor protection?
    1. Santa Fe
      10 June 2012 15: 54
      +3
      What kind of people are in Hollywood! smile

      Quote: Kars
      Say something like a frigate like Perry, a one-time exchange coin of high intensity conflict?

      1. On the basis of what is this conclusion made?
      2. Do not you think that this is true in relation to any ship that came under attack?

      Quote: Kars
      and his chances of survival with a massive missile strike are minimal? And

      And which of his peers has the maximum? Maybe at Sheffield? smile "

      Quote: Kars
      Or about armor protection?

      This would increase its value so much that no series would work. Moreover, with its small size, the armor did not help - all antenna devices and weapons would be disabled
      1. Kars
        Kars 10 June 2012 16: 01
        -1
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        1. On the basis of what is this conclusion made?

        The fact that the combat survivability is minimal, but many have built them.
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        2. Do not you think that this is true in relation to any ship that came under attack?

        But what about my favorite heavy cruiser strike cruiser of the Kronshtat type 2M-X-Bis4?
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        And which of his peers has the maximum? Maybe at Sheffield?

        I have repeatedly expressed my opinion on the development of modern ships.
        By the way Berezina Black ship did not read?
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        This would increase its value so much that no series would work

        I say a bargaining chip.
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        didn't help - all antenna devices and weapons would be disabled

        Well, for Stark, this would not have happened.

        ZY.-Congratulations on reaching a positive rating, becoming a fervent patriot?
        1. Santa Fe
          10 June 2012 17: 04
          +4
          Quote: Kars
          The fact that the combat survivability is minimal, but many have built them.

          By this logic, we can say that the T-34 is a bargaining chip. Compared with the latest versions of the T-4, Tigers and Panthers - the survivability is minimal, they built a lot.
          In fact - a cheap mass tank decided the outcome of the war. Quantity goes into quality.

          Quote: Kars
          But what about my favorite heavy cruiser strike cruiser of the Kronshtat type 2M-X-Bis4?

          Another stillborn child?

          Quote: Kars
          And which of his peers has the maximum? Maybe at Sheffield?

          Even taking into account the chance, “Stark” was 3 times more tenacious than “Sheffield”.
          I didn’t read about the black ship.

          Quote: Kars
          This would increase its value so much that no series would work
          I say a bargaining chip.

          T-34?

          Quote: Kars
          ZY.-Congratulations on reaching a positive rating, becoming a fervent patriot?

          For several months I have not written my opinion about McFaul
          1. Kars
            Kars 10 June 2012 17: 58
            -2
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            In fact - a cheap mass tank decided the outcome of the war

            Unfortunately, this is how we reassure ourselves.
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Another stillborn child?

            Forgot how we argued about Kronstadt and how many Termites can be installed on it?
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            I didn’t read about the black ship


            http://flibusta.net/s/924 может понравитса,если ты конечно такое читаешь.Мне особенно понравилось ---там есть гига танк в милионн тонн.
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            For several months I have not written my opinion about McFaul

            And who is this? A joke .--- but I have never written about him, and I was not interested.
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            T-34?

            Unfortunately.
            1. Santa Fe
              10 June 2012 22: 08
              +2
              Quote: Kars
              Unfortunately, this is how we reassure ourselves.

              They fought with great blood. But they didn’t know how otherwise, so the T-34 ideally met the requirements of the Red Army.
              As for the "Oliver" - it is efficient enough to drive submarines and patrol in conflict zones

              Quote: Kars
              Forgot how we argued about Kronstadt and how many Termites can be installed on it?

              EMNIP 32. And one or two air defense systems "Volna".
              Didn't Prince of Wales and Repals teach anything?

              Quote: Kars
              .I especially liked --- there is a gigabyte tank in a million tons.

              Aloizych is back!
              1. Kars
                Kars 10 June 2012 22: 13
                0
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                therefore, the T-34 perfectly met the requirements of the Red Army

                No one argues with this, so can we conclude that Perry was supposed to be a victim?
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                EMNIP 32

                At least twice as much --- you didn’t explain why in your version two rows of double-tube launchers cannot be doubled, the ship’s breadth allows you to. Yes and air defense can be more - all the same, 35 000 tons.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Didn't Prince of Wales and Repals teach anything?

                And what should they have taught? The fact that the main striking means of aviation are torpedoes? And it’s unforgettable that with the improvement of aviation, the air defense was also improved
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Aloizych is back!

                Running out of fossil fuels and the failure of rocket technology, the main caliber of 2000 millimeters (2 meters)
                1. Santa Fe
                  10 June 2012 22: 40
                  +1
                  Quote: Kars
                  So you can conclude that Perry was supposed to be a sacrifice?

                  In my opinion, there was a different situation with Oliver: the Soviet anti-ship missile system did not make a difference who was in front of him - the atomic "California" or the cheap "Perry", neither one nor the other had a chance to fight back. With a 15-fold difference in price.

                  Quote: Kars
                  At least twice as much --- you didn’t explain why, in your version, two rows of two-pipe launchers cannot be doubled,

                  How then to serve them? Charge?

                  Quote: Kars
                  Yes, and more air defense is possible - all the same, 35 000 tons.

                  We watched - even if you remove the aft tower - a maximum of two "Waves"

                  Quote: Kars
                  And it’s unforgettable that with the improvement of aviation, the air defense was also improved

                  Single-channel SAM "Volna" - early 60s. Remember what types of carrier-based aircraft were in those years.

                  Quote: Kars
                  Running out of fossil fuels

                  What did people eat?
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 10 June 2012 22: 55
                    0
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    But they coped with the tasks of PLO equally. With 15 times the price difference.

                    Why compare the cruiser and the frigate? And with the PLO could spavitsa and cheaper ships than Perry. Perry simple (or rather not quite simple) konvoyniki --- bargaining chip in a war with a serious opponent.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    How then to serve them? Charge?

                    I’m not so optimistic and presumptuous --- that I could count on the second salvo --- after the first one I would either lose my legs or enter an artillery battle, where spare missiles are just an unnecessary threat.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    We watched - even if you remove the aft tower - a maximum of two "Waves"

                    Vryatli, we watched before that - by the way, and to cover the coca needed for .. Wave. (In this I swim a lot)
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    Single-channel SAM "Volna" - early 60s. Remember what types of carrier-based aircraft were in those years.

                    Well, let's not exaggerate the power of aviation, they also had no Harpoons and Exocets in the 60
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    What did people eat?

                    Read, you will know ---- even if honestly the birch trees are hard to read, but original ideas come across .--- the post-apocalyptic world that has survived several nuclear wars.
                    1. Santa Fe
                      10 June 2012 23: 45
                      +1
                      Quote: Kars
                      Why compare cruiser and frigate?

                      What do you suggest?

                      Quote: Kars
                      And with the PLO could spavitsa and cheaper ships than Perry

                      In the ocean zone? Even simpler and cheaper Perry?

                      Quote: Kars
                      Perry simple (or rather, not quite simple) konvoyniki --- a bargaining chip in a war with a serious opponent.

                      Like the Legi missile cruisers, Belknap, California

                      Quote: Kars
                      I’m not so optimistic and presumptuous --- that I could count on the second salvo --- after the first one I would either lose my legs or enter an artillery battle, where spare missiles are just an unnecessary threat.

                      At least for the first time, charge them and give them all the data before starting smile

                      Quote: Kars
                      -By the way, and Kokova flatten necessary for ..Wave

                      PU ZIF-101, overcast radius with SAM - 5670 mm
                      But do not flatter yourself, you must also take into account the size of the missile cellar * and the place for the Yatagan
                      * Diameter 1 of the SAM stage - 0,55 meters, length - 6 meters

                      Quote: Kars
                      Well, let's not exaggerate the power of aviation, they also had no Harpoons and Exocets in the 60

                      But there were, for example, R4 and pueva cloud of bombs and NURS
                      And "Wave" fires 1 volley every 50 seconds.

                      I read Berezina, it already makes me laugh
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 11 June 2012 09: 54
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        What do you suggest?

                        to not compare
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        In the ocean zone? Even simpler and cheaper Perry?

                        Helicopter carrier.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        At least for the first time, charge them and give them all the data before starting

                        And the first time is not charging in the database?
                        And the data --- it is possible to issue data that 32, that 64.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        PU ZIF-101, overcast radius with SAM - 5670 mm

                        Does the MK-15 15 700 have a difference? And do not forget about the zone in front of the guns another 20 meters towards the stern.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        But do not flatter yourself, you still need to consider the size of the rocket cellar *

                        What a lot of space, and the cellar can be made common - the main thing is more launchers. So only in the stern can you make at least 6.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        But there were, for example, R4 and pueva cloud of bombs and NURS

                        In order to use a bunch of bombs and nuros, you need to fly very, very close. And R4 - you can do it more specifically.
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 11 June 2012 09: 56
                        0
                        Kronshtatd’s drawing - do not forget that we are mainly interested in dimensions.
                      3. Santa Fe
                        11 June 2012 16: 35
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        In the ocean zone? Even simpler and cheaper Perry?
                        Helicopter carrier.

                        I remember in the conversation about TAVKRs, you argued that he would not replace even three BOD.

                        Quote: Kars
                        And the first time is not charging in the database?

                        It will be difficult to charge and service them.
                        64 Termite - too much, and half will not have time to release

                        Quote: Kars
                        But do not flatter yourself, you still need to consider the size of the rocket cellar *
                        What a lot of space, and the cellar can be made common - the main thing is more launchers. So only in the stern can you make at least 6.

                        Come on with this moment in more detail:
                        1. The cellar cannot be shared. At the beginning of the 60's there was only one option - ZIF-101 with a drum magazine, 16 ZUR. The dimensions of the rockets I brought.
                        2. The main thing is that each installation has its own radar. Dimensions of the "Scimitar" in the picture
                        3. Put them back to back - it is impossible, this limits the sector of fire, moreover, the cruiser is not protected from attacks from the front.

                        If you remove the aft tower - there will be a space of meters 65 (somewhere 1 / 4 from the 250 meter building). Maximum - 2 installations

                        Quote: Kars
                        To use the puev pile of bombs and nuros it is necessary to fly very, very close.

                        They always flew into the Second World War. And on what planes! Swordfish and Avenger!
                      4. Kars
                        Kars 11 June 2012 16: 50
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        I remember in the conversation about TAVKRs, you argued that he would not replace even three BOD.

                        Well, I don’t offer TAVKR ----- but a simple helicopter carrier, even on the basis of a civilian cargo ship. Warships themselves must have anti-aircraft systems.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        It will be difficult to charge and service them.
                        64 Termite - too much, and half will not have time to release

                        It’s difficult, but possible. At the expense of releasing ---- it’s posturing. Where 32 is there 64
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        1. The cellar cannot be shared

                        Why?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        At the beginning of the 60's there was only one option - ZIF-101 with a drum magazine, 16 ZUR. The dimensions of the rockets I brought.

                        The dimensions of the rockets you brewed well, the diameter of 60 cm, and so what? What is the size of the system? How far did you go beyond the sweeping radius?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        2. The main thing is that each installation has its own radar. Dimensions of the "Scimitar"
                        on the picture
                        3. Put them back to back - it is impossible, this limits the sector of fire, moreover, the cruiser is not protected from attacks from the front.

                        there is a lot of space, PU on board, radar along the dihedral plane between them and on superstructures.
                        Type there is no place for 2 launchers between the pipes, and at least one in the nose, and it’s not at all why the ZURs from the stern will not be able to fire at targets entering the ship from the bow sectors.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        If you remove the aft tower - there will be a space of meters 65 (somewhere 1 / 4 from the 250 meter building). Maximum - 2 installations

                        Explain how it goes? in the space of 65 meters at 30 meters you get only two complexes? On the Grozny (previously there was an article) you could install two complexes in 5500 tons, not counting the rest of the filling, and you say that you can do as many on a ship in 35 000 tons.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        They always flew into the Second World War. And on what planes! Swordfish and Avenger!

                        Well then, there was no such air defense, and even forgively the anti-aircraft artillery drove them well. How many of the entire pack could plant bombs in the same Yamato? And as we see from the same battle in the Leyte Gulf, 1200 aircraft carriers (only) could not destroy all Japanese ships, like kamikaze, very rarely broke through the anti-aircraft curtain of cruisers and battleships (especially the class S. Dakota.)
                      5. Santa Fe
                        11 June 2012 17: 06
                        0
                        I also forgot about Saab RB04.
                        Swedish RCC. development - 1955 year, in service with 1962. Mass warhead - 300 kg, RCC mass - 800 kg, launch range -32 km
                      6. Kars
                        Kars 11 June 2012 17: 19
                        0
                        Thing

                        300 kg warhead (661 lbs) HE bang and pre-fragmented
                        Detonation
                        mechanism of influence and proximity



                        Rocket never saw a battle


                        If there is where to read more in detail - come on, the first time I hear about this.
                      7. Santa Fe
                        11 June 2012 18: 08
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        If there is where to read more in detail - come on, the first time I hear about this.


                        Here are a few words about its carrier - http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/j32.html
                        And so - type in any search engine
                      8. Kars
                        Kars 11 June 2012 18: 18
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And so - type in any search engine

                        This is what I did first. All right.

                        Do not you think about linking an article?
                      9. Santa Fe
                        11 June 2012 18: 47
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, I don’t offer TAVKR ----- but a simple helicopter carrier, even on the basis of a civilian cargo ship.

                        More expensive and worse. It will be an excellent target.
                        The cargo ship has too low speed

                        Quote: Kars
                        Why?

                        The whole question is in the filing system; it cannot be general.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Type there is no place for 2 PU between the pipes, and at least one in the nose

                        Too many alterations. Need a new project

                        Quote: Kars
                        Explain how it goes? in the space of 65 meters on 30 meters you get only two complexes

                        Look at the picture. Hardly climbed one


                        Quote: Kars
                        And as we see from the same battle in the Leyte Gulf, 1200 aircraft carrier (only) aircraft could not destroy all Japanese ships, just like kamikaze very rarely broke through the anti-aircraft curtain of cruisers and battleships

                        Oho. So there were whole formations of dozens of ships, and not one "Kronstadt"
                        And the planes, frankly, were bad
                      10. Kars
                        Kars 11 June 2012 19: 01
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        More expensive and worse

                        vryatli more expensive, worse - I don’t know --- 10-12 helicopters and worse?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The cargo ship has too low speed

                        In comparison with what? With the convoy of the same ships?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The whole question is in the filing system; it cannot be general.

                        Why? Has anyone tried it?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Too many alterations. Need a new project

                        Naturally, but they didn’t finish it, so there was an opportunity to rebuild.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Oho. So there were whole formations of dozens of ships, and not one "Kronstadt"
                        And the planes, frankly, were bad

                        And why did you get the idea that I would send Kronstad alone against the entire US fleet?
                        And then samoletiki became not much better than air defense.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Look at the picture. Hardly climbed one

                        We select the module and project it onto the Kronstadt case. We take into account that Kronstad is twice as wide.
                      11. Santa Fe
                        11 June 2012 23: 22
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        vryatli more expensive, worse - I don’t know --- 10-12 helicopters and worse?

                        For such an air group you need at least 4 GDP, hangar, lift
                        Displacement will be at least 10 thousand
                        Next - Perry had two gas tanks, how to mount them on a dry cargo ship?
                        The third question is that Perry still has a solid PU (SAM and Harpoons) + artillery + phalanx, except for PLO he knew a lot more
                        Do you really think that the helicopter carrier will be sent to the sea unarmed?

                        Quote: Kars
                        In comparison with what? With the convoy of the same ships?

                        Perry often walked with AUG

                        Quote: Kars
                        Why? Has anyone tried it?

                        We proceed from what is. ZIF-101 on 16 SAM, almost 12 m in diameter
                        Conveyor ZIF-102 to 32 SAM, but there are already completely different dimensions

                        Quote: Kars
                        And why did you get the idea that I would send Kronstad alone against the entire US fleet?

                        Well, I wonder who will keep him company. Considering that the "Kronstadt" itself has insufficient cruising range

                        Quote: Kars
                        And then samoletiki became not much better than air defense.

                        Well, what about - instead of Avengers and B5N, the transonic A-4 and the supersonic Phantom. Instead of primitive sights - modern avionics.

                        Now about air defense: The wave could not fire at low-flying targets. And with the advent of systems like RB-04, Kronstadt had no chance at all

                        We select the module and project it onto the Kronstadt case. We take into account that Kronstad is twice as wide.
                        Only please, along with the first antenna post on the add-on
                      12. Kars
                        Kars 11 June 2012 23: 44
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        For such an air group you need at least 4 GDP, hangar, lift
                        Displacement will be at least 10 thousand


                        but what's the problem? and why GDP? A flat deck --- and enough, a light hangar, even a folding one.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Perry had two CEOs

                        Well, again, Perry was smaller than 10 000 and set? Besides, for the helicopter carrier, only one is enough. The main thing is on the helicopters themselves.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Do you really think that the helicopter carrier will be sent to the sea unarmed?

                        Yes, it’s easy.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Perry often walked with AUG

                        He must go with someone. If there are no convoys, what would you do without standing around?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        We proceed from what is. ZIF-101 on 16 SAM, almost 12 m in diameter
                        Conveyor ZIF-102 to 32 SAM, but there are already completely different dimensions

                        Even with 12 meters --- just 36 meters, and we have at least 65 meters.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Well, I wonder who will keep him company. Considering that the "Kronstadt" itself has insufficient cruising range

                        And we are not going to the shores of the United States. We would drive the AUGs from their shores.
                        And who - yes you never know, will come up with something. The same 68 bis to redo, auxiliary ships.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Well, what about - instead of Avengers and B5N, the transonic A-4 and the supersonic Phantom. Instead of primitive sights - modern avionics

                        So the Storms are already appearing, and the Phantom and Skyhawk are no less terrifying. As long as long-range RCC missiles have not appeared, they are not a particular threat --- anti-aircraft missiles, artillery installations with Radar control and projectiles with radar detonators, dipole reflectors, etc.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And with the advent of systems like RB-04, Kronstadt had no chance at all

                        as Vika wrote - the robot - well, it was very bad for REB, and didn’t even have a penetrating warhead, and Harpoon was 1978 of the year, Exoset-1975 so sorry, early.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Only please, along with the first antenna post on the add-on

                        Yes, even with three.
                      13. Santa Fe
                        12 June 2012 00: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Flat deck --- and enough lightweight hangar, even folding.

                        What size flat deck? How much space is required to take off an 1 helicopter?
                        Folding hangar ?? Have you decided to knock down equipment in one go? If you remove it under the deck - you need a lift, and preferably two.
                        And what is the result - only a PLO ship, unable to go along with the AUG

                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, again, Perry is less than 10 000 and set?

                        Your bulk carrier will have to sew a bulb, which will further worsen its driving performance ... Okay, one towed one is enough. Bad, well, figs with him.

                        Quote: Kars
                        why does he need a weapon? maybe a couple of shootings

                        Perry had PU with standards and harpoons. Don’t say it, but a useful thing.
                        In short, the dry cargo ship is unprotected in any way, and performs only one task - PLO, while it costs like several Perry.

                        Quote: Kars
                        He must go with someone. If there are no convoys, what would you do without standing around?

                        And so it was calculated. AUG is the main "client" for an escort. Building expensive California - what's the point?

                        Quote: Kars
                        Even with 12 meters --- just 36 meters, and we have at least 65 meters.

                        They are pointless to put near. Look at the photo of Leningrad, how the storm stands in a longitudinally elevated scheme

                        Quote: Kars
                        The same 68 bis redo, auxiliary ships.

                        Come here in more detail. And you see, a condition has already appeared - the fleet is not oceanic, but coastal.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Ak and Storms are already appearing

                        Storm -1967 year. And what does that change? Storm-N to combat low-flying targets appeared much later

                        Quote: Kars
                        anti-aircraft missiles, artillery mounts with radar control and shells with radar fuses

                        Even against Zero and Keith, this all too often proved insufficient. A list of ships sunk by kamikaze seen? And if you include deck aviation trophies there?

                        Quote: Kars
                        as Vika wrote - the robot - well, it was very bad for REB, and didn’t even have a penetrating warhead, and Harpoon was 1978 of the year, Exoset-1975 so sorry, early.

                        The system was in operation until the end of the century. Have you heard about "Tiny Tim"? There were many developments in this area and it did not smell good for Kronstadt

                        Quote: Kars
                        Yes, even with three.

                        No, well you count for interest
                      14. Kars
                        Kars 12 June 2012 00: 28
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        What size flat deck? How much space is required to take off an 1 helicopter?



                        Max. width - 32,3 m, max. length - 294,1 m, max. draft - 12 m.

                        How much do you think fit?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And what is the result - only a PLO ship, unable to go along with the AUG

                        And we need this, Perry in the AUG as the fifth wheel.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        In short, the cargo ship is unprotected in any way, and performs only one task - PLO, while it costs, like several Perry

                        With what joy is he standing like a few Perry? And the helicopters carry a more effective weapon than Perry himself.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        They are pointless to put near. Look at the photo of Leningrad, how the storm stands in a longitudinally elevated scheme


                        Is it somewhere written down? What is it pointless to put next to them? They must bombard targets tens of kilometers from the carrier, so that I see no prerequisites for mandatory diversity.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Storm -1967 year. And what does that change? Storm-N to combat low-flying targets appeared much later

                        Low-flying missiles will also appear much later, and let's not get hung up on missiles, there’s still quick-firing artillery.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Even against Zero and Keith, this all too often proved insufficient. A list of ships sunk by kamikaze seen?

                        Not so big, especially compared to the number of kamikazes themselves.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The system was operated until the end of the century.

                        You never know what the Swedes are exploiting, and I think that the filling of the 50-60 anti-ship missiles is very different from the end of the century.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        No, well you count for interest

                        and what to consider then? in Moscow, if it is she in the 4 Storm photo, the displacement is half (approximately) less and shorter by 60 meters, and helicopters occupy a lot of space.
                      15. Santa Fe
                        12 June 2012 01: 02
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Max. width - 32,3 m, max. length - 294,1 m, max. draft - 12 m.
                        How much do you think fit?

                        We are talking about a dry cargo ship. How much space is needed for one helppad

                        Quote: Kars
                        And we need this, Perry in the AUG as the fifth wheel.

                        There are many other threats in the close range. For example, single anti-ship missiles and aircraft. Do not forget that "Perry" was small and cheap and coped with its tasks not bad "dry cargo". What is the dispute about?

                        Quote: Kars
                        With what joy is he standing like a few Perry?

                        Dry cargo ship from 10 000 tons developing speed up to 30 nodes. With a below-deck hangar and lifts + several self-defense systems towed by an ASG and RTS of average scall

                        Quote: Kars
                        They must fire at targets tens of kilometers from the carrier, so I don’t see the prerequisites for mandatory diversity.

                        If you put them back to back - A) the torches of the launching missiles will periodically touch other launchers, and this is too wide. B) there is not enough space for cellars

                        Quote: Kars
                        Low-flying missiles will also appear much later, and let's not get hung up on missiles, there’s still quick-firing artillery.

                        And a lot of it on Kronstadt? And how effective is it against low-flying high-speed aircraft with digital avionics

                        Quote: Kars
                        Not so big, especially compared to the number of kamikazes themselves.

                        So there the forces were unequal - they acted on the Zero not against the 2-3 cruisers but against the formations of dozens of ships, with dozens / hundreds of barrels on each

                        Quote: Kars
                        You never know what the Swedes are exploiting, and I think that the filling of the 50-60 anti-ship missiles is very different from the end of the century.

                        But, you must admit, the system was decent and success was achieved with mass application.

                        Quote: Kars
                        in Moscow if she is in the photo

                        There the name is written aft, this is Leningrad. But not the point

                        Quote: Kars
                        if this is she in the photo 4 Storm

                        There are two storms and a PU Whirlwind with SBN

                        Quote: Kars
                        the displacement is half (approximately) less and shorter by 60 meters, and helicopters occupy a lot of space.

                        Lack of reservation, from artillery - two AK-725 caliber 57 mm.
                      16. Kars
                        Kars 12 June 2012 01: 14
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        We are talking about a dry cargo ship

                        Like I gave the dimensions of an aircraft carrier
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        one helipad

                        Do not swear.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        For example, single anti-ship missiles and aircraft

                        And for this you need to carry Perry with you? When there is an aircraft carrier wing? And destroyers?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Dry cargo ship from 10 000 tons developing speed up to 30 nodes. With a below-deck hangar and lifts + several self-defense systems towed by an ASG and RTS of average scall

                        Why is he developing 30 nodes? And with all that you wrote, he is more effective than 5-6 Perry pieces.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        If you put them back to back - A) the torches of the launching missiles will periodically touch other launchers, and this is too wide. B) there is not enough space for cellars

                        A.Will not be
                        B. Enough.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And a lot of it on Kronstadt? And how effective is it against low-flying high-speed aircraft with digital avionics

                        I think up to 20 pcs, and are very effective. despite any Breo aircraft.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        So there the forces were unequal - they acted on the Zero not against the 2-3 cruisers but against the formations of dozens of ships, with dozens / hundreds of barrels on each

                        Well, do not use them in a dispute and the whole business.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        But, you must admit, the system was decent and success was achieved with mass application.

                        I agree that I can, but the fact is that apart from the Swedes, as I understand it, no one used it.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        There are two storms and a PU Whirlwind with SBN


                        Guns: 4 57 mm ZIF-72
                        Torpedo tubes: 10 533 mm
                        Helicopters: 14 Ka-25
                        Anti-aircraft installations: 4 Storm
                        PLC Anti-submarine systems: 1 RPK-1 "Whirlwind

                        2 double-barreled again?
                        But according to your data, based on the dimensions of the drum for the Wave nada, the 12 m platform at 12 meters - what else is needed? For yatanas there is also a place between the launchers and the superstructures.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Lack of reservation, from artillery - two AK-725 caliber 57 mm

                        This does not affect the fact that the dimensions are smaller, one MK-15 installation only weighs how much with ammunition and cellars. (And it is removed)
                      17. Santa Fe
                        12 June 2012 01: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        one helipad

                        For one "helipad" (helipad - agree shorter and more laconic), a space of 21x17 m was required. On the mistral there are even more norms.

                        Quote: Kars
                        And for this you need to carry Perry with you? When there is an aircraft carrier wing? And destroyers?

                        So Perry was for the destroyers. Before the appearance of the Berks, the Amers had only 33 destroyer URO (10-ancient Farraguts, 23 no less than the old Adams, identical to Perry in size). All! There were no more destroyers. There were only Perry and Knox. But AUG was two dozen + other connections

                        Quote: Kars
                        What is he developing 30 nodes?

                        How else would he keep up with warships?

                        Quote: Kars
                        A.Will not be
                        B. Enough.

                        Will be. No wonder they put a screen on the 56 air defense
                        B. Are there any numbers?

                        Quote: Kars
                        I think up to 20 pcs, and are very effective. despite any Breo aircraft.

                        At one time, hundreds of installations did not save Amer. Shooting from all sides. Against flimsy planes that couldn’t aim normally

                        Quote: Kars
                        I agree that I can, but the fact is that apart from the Swedes, as I understand it, no one used it.

                        There was simply no need. You know what the concept and interest in RCC was only after Eilat

                        Quote: Kars
                        2 double-barreled again?

                        Judging by 4 57 mm ZIF-72 yes .. Two double-barreled ZIF-72 (actually AK-725). The storm is also two.

                        Quote: Kars
                        one MK-15 installation only weighs how much with ammunition and cellars

                        The phalanx weighs 3 times less than the AK-725. But the matter is not in mass, but in dimensions
                      18. Kars
                        Kars 12 June 2012 10: 57
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        space 21x17

                        Not so much, if you insist on lifts, the number of helicopters increases to 20
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        So Perry was for the destroyers

                        Indeed, the United States was lucky that they did not have to fight at sea at all.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        How else would he keep up with warships?

                        And who was going to?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Will be. No wonder they put a screen on the 56 air defense
                        B. Are there any numbers?


                        A-12 meters between the axles, and if this is so critical then what prevents you from putting screens?
                        B-you yourself gave them.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        At one time, hundreds of installations did not save Amer. Shooting from all sides. Against flimsy planes that couldn’t aim normally

                        Didn’t they save directly? And do not Pom-Pom equal with AK-630
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        There was simply no need. You know what the concept and interest in RCC was only after Eilat

                        I’m not sure what I know, but another fact, even after Eilat, no one bought Swedish anti-ship missiles.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Phalanx weighs 3 times less than AK-725

                        Why compare the phalanx with a three-inch? Compare with the AK-630

                        I would say that a modernized Kronstadt would break through to the AUG despite the damage incurred while launching a minimum of 35-50 anti-ship missiles. And I would return to the base --- albeit having lost combat readiness at 80-90% and lost a couple of convoy destroyers. it was worth it.
                      19. Santa Fe
                        12 June 2012 13: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        if you insist on lifts the number of helicopters increases to 20

                        Wow! Then there will be completely different dimensions and prices
                        It makes no sense to increase the air group, having 4 halipad and one lift. Fuel reserves will double
                        From real-life examples: Hyuuga - 11 ... 15 helicopters, 2 speed arrows, 2 Mk41 module, 18 000 tons.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Indeed, the United States was lucky that they did not have to fight at sea at all.

                        Who was a serious opponent of the US Navy in the 60 years? In 70? In 80?
                        Or did you decide on the basis of 33 old destroyers? Then you still need to take into account 27 cruisers, of which 9 are atomic. 46 Knox + 55 Perry, plus the Perry destroyer was developed with Perry, and this is a completely different level

                        Quote: Kars
                        And who was going to?

                        Perry (namely, you are trying to replace him with a dry cargo ship) escorted AUG

                        Quote: Kars
                        A-12 meters between the axles, and if this is so critical then what prevents you from putting screens?
                        B-you yourself gave them.

                        A. 12 meters is small. If you force everything into screens, how will they shoot?
                        B. So look visually - even the cellar on the 16 missiles is much larger than the installation, which has a radius of sweeping of almost 6 meters.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Didn’t they save directly? And do not Pom-Pom equal with AK-630

                        Too often not saved. Facts are a stubborn thing.
                        The first analogue AK-630 is the middle of the 70's, sorry, but late.
                        And in the Soviet Navy there was not even a semblance of a 5 '/ 25 anti-aircraft gun

                        Quote: Kars
                        about another fact, even after Eilat, no one bought Swedish anti-ship missiles

                        In France, in 1967, the development of its own Exoset began, which turned out to be successful RCC

                        Quote: Kars
                        Why compare the phalanx with a three-inch?

                        AK-725 total 57 mm

                        Quote: Kars
                        Compare with AK-630

                        One installation without radar - 3,8 tons. Phalanx assembly - 5..6 tons

                        Quote: Kars
                        I would say that a modernized Kronstadt would break through to the AUG despite the damage incurred while launching a minimum of 35-50 anti-ship missiles. And I would return to the base --- albeit having lost combat readiness at 80-90% and lost a couple of convoy destroyers. it was worth it.

                        An unfounded statement.
                        Start at least that Kronstadt had an insufficient range.

                        The story of the quick death of Yamato (with an air defense order) is another confirmation. Although the seemingly slow-moving Avengers were forced to approach at a minimum distance, the pilots aimed "by eye", so experienced Japanese gunners had to scatter them into chips. 220 aircraft (of which a third are fighters) against 9 ships (WHAT ships! Kronstadt is just a puppy, according to the Japanese super-battleship).
                        And the Americans swooped down not immediately, but in turn. Nothing saved Yamato, although he was in "benign conditions".
                      20. Kars
                        Kars 12 June 2012 13: 57
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        having xnumx halipad and one lift

                        And why 4 helliped and one lift? With dimensions
                        Max. width - 32,3 m, max. length - 294,1 m, max. draft - 12 m.
                        and nothing cluttered deck.

                        But Hyuuga doesn’t compare here - he’s also intended for fighters + a springboard. And I have the simplest and cheapest escort helicopter carrier for transoceanic convoys.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Who was a serious opponent of the US Navy in the 60 years? In 70? In 80?

                        In and I about the same, so the United States could afford all kinds of nonsense to build like Long Beach and rivet perry.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Perry (namely, you are trying to replace him with a dry cargo ship) escorted AUG

                        When is it? I say that peri and nafig is not needed in the AUG, but for PLO and defense of convoys it is very expensive and weak.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        A. 12 meters is small. If you force everything into screens, how will they shoot?

                        There are numbers? And what screens prevent if the missiles go to the top at a large angle?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        B. So look visually - even the cellar on the 16 missiles is much larger than the installation, which has a throwing radius of almost 6 meters

                        You already gave a drum with a diameter of 12 meters, and that's it.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Too often not saved. Facts stubborn thing

                        Us fleet flew without sailing to Okinawa?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The first analogue AK-630 - the middle of the 70's, sorry, but late

                        Well, the Harpoon with Exoset at the same time, and the 1973 Balance
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        In France, in 1967, the development of its own Exoset began, which turned out to be successful RCC

                        These are the personal problems of the Swedes and the French.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        AK-725 total 57 mm

                        with 26 confused.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        One installation without radar - 3,8 tons. Phalanx assembly - 5..6 tons

                        Here is approximately equal data --- so that all shots can be pushed.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        An unfounded statement.

                        I'm sure.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        that Kronstadt had an insufficient range.

                        I already repeated a couple of times that no one in the Gulf of Mexico in the Gulf of Mexico is not going to drive.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        (WHAT ships! Kronstadt is just a puppy, according to the theory with the Japanese super linkor

                        With modern air defense it’s a Yamato puppy in front of Kronshtadd,
                        And the first time I hear that Yamato was in sparing conditions.
                        and the horror that was called 25 mm type 96 I don’t want to remember, just the fact that the station wagons didn’t have shells with radar fuses.
                        And again the torpedoes did the main thing,
                      21. Santa Fe
                        12 June 2012 15: 34
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Max. width - 32,3 m, max. length - 294,1 m, max. draft - 12 m. and nothing cluttered deck.

                        Wow. Prices are approaching the aircraft carrier. The only task is PLO.
                        And this is instead of five or six universal Perry!

                        Quote: Kars
                        And I have the simplest and cheapest escort helicopter carrier for transoceanic convoys.

                        Yeah. And how is your 294-meter "deshovy helicopter carrier" different from a classic aircraft carrier?

                        Quote: Kars
                        The United States could afford all sorts of nonsense to build like Long Beach and rivet perry.

                        It is clear, instead of Perry there should be a "cheap helicopter carrier"
                        What didn’t you like about Long Beach ?, it’s a ship of its era, more than once proved the effectiveness in battle. The only minus is the atomic one, but there were also Albanian cruisers, almost identical to Long Beach

                        Quote: Kars
                        I say that peri and nafig is not needed in the AUG, but for PLO and convoy defense it is very expensive and weak.

                        It is clear that a "cheap helicopter carrier" is needed. And what was Perry's weakness in PLO?

                        Quote: Kars
                        And what prevents screens if the rockets go to the top at a large angle?

                        Picture

                        Quote: Kars
                        You already gave a drum with a diameter of 12 meters, and that's it.

                        I gave only the numbers for the two-girder PU ZIF-101 (radius - 5,7 meters), the size of the cellar is larger: two drums of 8 SAM in each. The drums are quite widely spaced in width, because firstly, its drives are located directly under the launcher, and secondly, missiles are fed not to the launcher axis, but to the guides. Plus, you need to take into account fire fighting, control equipment and technological passages.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Us fleet flew without sailing to Okinawa?

                        The US Navy shook dohren, despite radar and radio fuses. Even wooden Zeros broke through to the center of formations, consisting of dozens of fiercely shooting ships

                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, the Harpoon with Exoset at the same time, and the 1973 Balance

                        How did a conversation come about them ??

                        Quote: Kars
                        These are the personal problems of the Swedes and the French.

                        You wondered why no one was buying a Swedish rocket.
                        Because when the need arose, everyone bought a more modern French

                        Quote: Kars
                        Here is approximately equal data --- so that all shots can be pushed.

                        AK-630 has always used two units. One shot, the other cooled. Although what is the argument? What is Phalanx more effective?

                        Quote: Kars
                        I’ve already repeated a couple of times that no one behind the AUG in the Gulf of Mexico is not going to drive

                        5000 miles at 15 nodes - this is not enough to catch up with the AUG in the North Sea. Destroyers are even worse.


                        Quote: Kars
                        With modern air defense it’s a Yamato puppy in front of Kronshtadd,

                        Well, Japanese air defense was not particularly effective, but the number of barrels! What reservation and sizes !!! And the main caliber! This is the end to all AUG!
                        (and slow, flimsy Avengers at direct range.)

                        By the way, why Kronstadt, not Stalingrad. I don’t know much about these prodigies

                        Quote: Kars
                        And again the torpedoes did the main thing,

                        In the case of the appearance of Kronstadt-Stalingrad, the appearance of adequate means is not excluded - for example, aviation homing torpedoes. Aviation has high flexibility in application.
                      22. Kars
                        Kars 12 June 2012 16: 31
                        0
                        In the next topic dawned ---- it can be applied to Yamato.
                        The anti-aircraft fire of the Allied ships was 70 times more effective than the Japanese air defense. The reason is the use of centimeter range radars and the presence of radio fuses for shells of caliber 40 and 127 mm
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Prices approach aircraft carrier

                        A standard container ship stands like an aircraft carrier? Congratulations to Liberia.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And this is instead of five or six universal Perry!
                        how much money savings only on crews, fuel.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        I gave only the numbers for the two-frame PU ZIF-101

                        Here come on without fairy tales, okay? On Grozny they were able to paste? Could - look at the photo and project.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        US fleet shook dohren

                        How much is this?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        How did a conversation come about them ??

                        Well, you started - digital Breo, P4 robots.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        You wondered why no one was buying a Swedish rocket.
                        Because when the need arose, everyone bought a more modern French

                        I was not surprised, I cited the fact that no one bought them.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        AK-630 has always used two units. One shot, the other cooled. Although what is the argument? What is Phalanx more effective?

                        It is only about quantity and that’s it.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        5000 miles at 15 nodes - this is not enough to catch up with the AUG in the North Sea. Destroyers are even worse

                        And if the AUG will come closer? Yes, and it’s enough for an interception. Disruption of the AUG’s strike will be guaranteed.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        What reservation and sizes !!! And the main caliber! This is the end to all AUG!

                        Well, unfortunately it’s all about torpedoes. The lack of good shells for the main caliber. And the fact that Yamato could not get closer to the AUG. His air defense was very weak.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        for example aviation homing torpedoes. Aviation has high flexibility in application.

                        I would have to re-profile RBU, and the range of the torpedoes and the speed of the vryatli would allow them to be released from a great distance.
                      23. Santa Fe
                        12 June 2012 19: 22
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        The anti-aircraft fire of the Allied ships was 70 times more effective than the Japanese air defense. The reason is the use of centimeter range radars and the presence of radio fuses for shells of caliber 40 and 127 mm

                        And did we have anti-aircraft guns of the caliber 127 mm? EMNIP, ZIF-75 had no radio fuses (45 mm 4-x receiver)

                        Quote: Kars
                        Does a standard container ship cost like an aircraft carrier?

                        As you see. it is not quite standard.

                        - Speed ​​under 30 nodes, like Perry
                        - Prepared helpdes (eight pieces)
                        - 2-3 lift
                        - Deck hangar with all equipment and gas stations.
                        - Spaces for the crew (600 people as a minimum - they cannot be accommodated on the upper deck in a "light folding hangar" smile )
                        - Self-defense systems,
                        - Radio electronics

                        Quote: Kars
                        how much money savings only on crews, fuel.

                        You will save on fuel and crew, but 600 people (for example, the crew of the TAVKRA - about 1,5 thousand) will be unprotected in any serious conflict, and a "cheap helicopter carrier" can perform only one role - an ASW, in contrast to the universal Perry.
                        zs There will be no fighters on the "container carrier". To do this, you need to strengthen the upper deck, which will cost a penny. And you don't need it if there is a full-fledged AB next to

                        Quote: Kars
                        on Grozny were able to paste? Could - look at the photo and project.

                        Everything is beautifully visible there - the Cellar is much larger than the PU (meters 15-17)
                        In the last post I wrote why this is so

                        On our Kronstadt-Stalingrad (what is the correct name?) Aft, if you please, you won’t be able to deploy more than two air defense systems with their radar. But there will be a place for anti-aircraft artillery.

                        Quote: Kars
                        How much is this?

                        Wikipedia - US Navy losses in WWII. If you still take into account the British ships, it turns out generally bad.

                        Quote: Kars
                        And if AUG will get closer? Yes, and all the same, enough to intercept

                        Now, conditions are already emerging. In any case, Kronstadt will be found 5-6 hours before it reaches the range of a salvo. Our "supercruiser" has a chance only in a violent storm, but even here it is not a fact - AUG can escape

                        Quote: Kars
                        Failure to strike AUG will be exactly guaranteed.

                        This is stupid. The cruiser will die, the AUG strike will be delayed for several hours.
                        By the way, where can the "AUG strike" be directed?

                        Quote: Kars
                        And the fact that Yamato could not get closer to the AUG. His air defense was very weak.

                        Its air defense was not as weak as + 8 escort ships are trying to imagine. The fire had to be solid, and the Avengers had to get very close.
                        As experience shows, Kronstadt would inevitably repeat the fate of Yamato, Musashi, Ripals, Cornwall or Paula

                        Quote: Kars
                        I would have to re-profile RBU

                        Will not be enough

                        Quote: Kars
                        and the range of the torpedoes and the speed of the vryatli will allow them to release from a great distance.

                        But at least the A-4 would not have had to get so close to the cruiser. as was the case for the Avengers. + best sighting systems. and homing torpedoes

                        What is the ship in the picture? Scharnhorst chtol?
                      24. Kars
                        Kars 12 June 2012 19: 40
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And did we have anti-aircraft guns of the caliber 127 mm?

                        130 mm true with remote fuse.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        As you see. it is not quite standard.

                        - Speed ​​under 30 nodes, like Perry
                        - Prepared helpdes (eight pieces)
                        - 2-3 lift
                        - Deck hangar with all equipment and gas stations.
                        - Spaces for the crew (600 people as a minimum - they cannot be accommodated on the upper deck in a "light folding hangar")
                        - Self-defense systems,
                        - Radio electronics

                        How much did the container ship upgrade that the British used in the Falklands cost?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Everything is beautifully visible there - the Cellar is much larger than the PU (meters 15-17)

                        Terrible width of only 15 meters.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Wikipedia - US Navy losses in WWII. If you still take into account the British ships, it turns out generally bad.

                        and everything from kamikaze? and how many US battleships after Pearl Harbor?

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Now, conditions are already appearing. In any case, Kronstadt will be discovered 5-6 hours before it reaches the salvo range

                        It’s a clear matter of the condition that we will attack the AUG from floundering bay?
                        He will lead the battle with his air defense and the warrant will hit a strike distance --- 5-6 hours, by the way, how much km is from the aircraft carrier?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        This is stupid. The cruiser will die, the AUG strike will be delayed for several hours

                        Why would the cruiser die? This is not counting what the AUG will strike if the cruiser knocks planes to him?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        By the way, where can the "AUG strike" be directed?

                        Nowhere, he will be intercepted several hundred kilometers before the radius of impact of his air wing.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Its air defense was not as weak as + 8 escort ships are trying to imagine. The fire had to be solid, and the Avengers had to get very close.

                        and how many downed Avengers?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        As experience shows, Kronstadt would inevitably repeat the fate of Yamato, Musashi, Ripals, Cornwall or Paula

                        Did the battleships you mentioned have guided air defense missiles?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Will not be enough

                        Enough, you still have to consider that the ship maneuvers at high speed.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        But at least the A-4 would not have had to get so close to the cruiser. how did the Avengers

                        And how much would approximate A-4 have to use JV Bombs and NURSES?
                      25. Santa Fe
                        13 June 2012 13: 47
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        130 mm true with remote fuse.

                        What are these? CM-2-1? But they were never considered artillery of air defense - not those TTX and opportunities.
                        There were also 100 mm CM-5-1, placed on 68 bis. But all this does not even reach the level of air defense of American cruisers during the war years (which too often could not stop the plywood Zero).

                        Quote: Kars
                        How much did the container ship upgrade that the British used in the Falklands cost?

                        Not at all. There was no upgrade. The Atlantic Conveyor was a one-time air transport with a single halipad, not a warship. Speed ​​- 23 nodes. He brought the Harriers (who rusted on the upper deck), on this his mission ended. See picture

                        Quote: Kars
                        Terrible width of only 15 meters.

                        You're right.
                        Cellar length - 10500 mm
                        Cellar Width - 5200 mm
                        Cellar Height - 7000 mm
                        But this does not change much - look at ave. 58, how much space is allotted for PU + the same amount is occupied by the Yatagan. (Total - 25 meters) And do not forget that this is only 16 missiles.

                        Quote: Kars
                        and everything from kamikaze? and how many US battleships after Pearl Harbor?

                        7 Heavy Cruisers + British

                        battleships did not die, because not so actively used and they were covered by large forces of ships and aircraft. In total, in the list of losses of the US Navy -714 positions, percent of 50 - aviation (including kamikaze).
                        By the way, when did most US Navy sailors die?

                        Quote: Kars
                        after Pearl Harbor?

                        This alone is suggestive.

                        Quote: Kars
                        He will lead the battle with his air defense and the order will go to the strike distance

                        How is Yamato?

                        Quote: Kars
                        5-6 hours, by the way, how many kilometers from an aircraft carrier?

                        EMNIP Yamato found over 300 km,
                        Do not forget, carrier-based AWACS aircraft appeared at the end of the 40's.

                        Quote: Kars
                        this is not considering that what will be the AUG strike strike if the cruiser knocks him planes?

                        Like Yamato and Prynts Wales? smile
                        And explain what threat the AUG posed for the USSR?

                        Quote: Kars
                        and how many downed Avengers?

                        Emnip, 9 ships shot down 10 aircraft

                        Quote: Kars
                        Did the battleships you mentioned have guided air defense missiles?

                        Such as the Wave - are useless against low-flying targets, the lower ceiling on the tests was 600 m, they did not shoot below

                        Quote: Kars
                        Enough, you still have to consider that the ship maneuvers at high speed.

                        It will not be moving at high speed for long.

                        Quote: Kars
                        And how much would approximate A-4 have to use JV Bombs and NURSES?

                        Bombs and Nurses - close
                        But homing torpedoes can be thrown further away, without approaching 400-500 meters, as the slow and vulnerable Avengers did (rate of climb - 9 m / s, Skyhawk - 43 m / s)
                      26. Kars
                        Kars 13 June 2012 18: 08
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        What are these? CM-2-1?

                        KS-30
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Not at all. There was no upgrade

                        In fact, not at all, so for a small fee, we will make a helicopter carrier. And by the way, outside the war --- when there are no convoys, then you don’t need to keep it. Around the economy. Only train pilots normally ---- but this can be done with shores, or barges.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Cellar length - 10500 mm
                        Cellar Width - 5200 mm
                        Cellar Height - 7000 mm

                        Kronstadt --- width 32 meters, insert on the sides of the PU in the middle of Yatagan.
                        The fact that 16 missiles at the PU is the total number of air defense aft platforms will be about 100 missiles.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        By the way, when did most US Navy sailors die?

                        Either in Arizona or in indionapoles.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        This alone is suggestive.

                        Well, somehow the first strike does not want to be considered, and in the port without a move, it’s not kosher.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        How is Yamato?

                        Better Yamato.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        EMNIP Yamato found over 300 km,
                        do not forget, carrier-based AWACS aircraft appeared at the end of 40's

                        OK, it should break through --- even if beyond 400-450

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And explain what threat the AUG posed for the USSR?

                        In 50-60 when the ICBM was still small, it was certainly not very special, but it was necessary to answer with something, and the missile support only by its presence would already have drunk half of the work.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Such as the Wave - are useless against low-flying targets, the lower ceiling on the tests was 600 m, they did not shoot below

                        we’ll hit the low-flying artillery,
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        It will not be moving at high speed for long.

                        Enough to the rocket launch point, and there already as the card will fall.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        here you can throw homing torpedoes away

                        How many? And how will they be? By the noise of the screws? You still say that they will be able to select signals.
                      27. Santa Fe
                        13 June 2012 21: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        KS-30

                        1. This is not a marine system.
                        2. What advantages did she have compared to the Mark-12?
                        The American gun did 15-20 rounds / min, had less inertia and kosher SUAO Mark-37, but even this turned out to be not enough - the numbers of losses are colossal. And here is the information from the Wiki: "the average consumption of shells for one downed aircraft amounted to 1000 pieces"Wow! And this is against the slow, low-maneuverable piston" Zeros "and" Keits. "The A-4, I remind you, has 4 times the rate of climb.
                        So your confidence in the resistance of Kronstadt against aviation attacks is, to put it mildly, unfounded.

                        Quote: Kars
                        In-in, not at all, so for a small fee, we will make a helicopter carrier.

                        Well, I repeat, AK was no warship, the most common container ship on the deck of which the 14 Harriers were put and sent slowly to the Falklands
                        Use of such a ship as an escort helicopter carrier is unacceptable. 1. too low speed, 2. the only halipad, the planes are piled up and can only take off one at a time 3. No means for the permanent basing of the wing was installed - no ammunition cellars, no RTS, or 4 service equipment. equipment rusts - this is how you can carry planes once, but not constantly.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Kronstadt --- width 32 meters, insert on the sides of the PU in the middle of Yatagan.

                        Each PU requires its own radar. Radio command guidance.
                        As we found out, each system requires 25 meters of length. Where a hundred missiles

                        Quote: Kars
                        Either in Arizona or in indionapoles.

                        Indianapolis, yeah

                        Quote: Kars
                        OK, it should break through --- even if beyond 400-450

                        This is not true, he will be killed in an hour.

                        Quote: Kars
                        In 50-60 when the ICBM was still small, it was

                        Also not true. Instead of A-3 and A-5, there were much more powerful nuclear weapons delivery systems - B-52 Stratofortresses, F-105 Thunderbolts and B-47 Stratojets


                        Quote: Kars
                        How many? And how will they be? By the noise of the screws?

                        Homing torpedo Mark34, 1946 year. 4000 units produced Claimed range - up to 11 km.
                        This is the end of the Kronstadt project

                        Why Kronstadt and not Stalingrad?
                      28. Kars
                        Kars 13 June 2012 22: 15
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        1. This is not a marine system.

                        Are we kind of considering an alternative?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        SUAO Mark-37,

                        In principle, the secrets of the atomic bomb of the USSR were received, and it would be necessary to stash it with shells.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        the consumption of shells per shot down plane was 1000 pieces "

                        And let's calculate the average consumption of ammunition per killed soldier?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        A-4, I recall, has 4 times greater climb.

                        He basically is not knocked down?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        So your confidence in the resistance of Kronstadt against aviation attacks is, to put it mildly, unfounded.

                        I can say the same thing about your confidence in aviation of the end of the 50-beginning of the 70's

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        the most common container ship

                        Well, what about me? From the very beginning.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        1. too low speed

                        Compared to the convoy of the same container ship?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        2. the only halipad

                        The whole deck is solid helipad 200 m on 30м
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        3. No means have been installed for the permanent basing of the wing - neither ammunition cellars, nor RTS, nor service equipment

                        Well, the British really worked in a note of note, under normal conditions everything will be better --- there is plenty of space, especially for helicopters and not Hariera.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        equipment rusts - this is how you can carry planes once, but not constantly.

                        Here it would be time to swim to the shores of the United States, and you're talking about constant --- to the same, I indicated that it was not constant.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        As we found out, each system requires 25 meters of length. Where a hundred missiles


                        Where does 25 meters come from? Why are you trying to put everything in a line?
                        So at least 8 is multiplied by 16 so that 128 is only on the aft platform.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Indianapolis, yeah

                        Submarine, payback for Hiroshima came earlier.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        This is not true, he will be killed in an hour.

                        It will destroy the AUG into a clean attack aircraft, under the protection of the flare reflector reflectors to the rocket launch point.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Also not true. Instead of A-3 and A-5, there were much more powerful nuclear weapons delivery systems - B-52 Stratofortresses, F-105 Thunderbolts and B-47 Stratojets


                        But what bomber doesn’t need to fly over the coastal air defense zone? And what could the B-52 do without the fighter cover of the breakthrough deep into the territory of the USSR? So AUG strikes would be necessary so that strategic bombers would have several directions of attack, and not just through western Europe.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Homing torpedo Mark34, 1946 year. 4000 units produced Claimed range - up to 11 km.
                        This is the end of the Kronstadt project

                        No, can you tell me what it’s pointing at? How far does it capture the target for homing? Speed? I’m sorry to let her go ahead and the ship is maneuvering, again why are they going to Kronstat and not the destroyer?

                        And drop the reference, read it. Otherwise Google only gives on 45.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Why Kronstadt and not Stalingrad?

                        Well, you can on Stalingrad.
                        It’s just that Kronstad in AI was developed in detail, proceeding from the fact that the USSR managed to complete it.
                      29. Santa Fe
                        14 June 2012 01: 13
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        Are we kind of considering an alternative?

                        We only consider realistic systems, ready to be installed on a cruiser. Well, let's say, we finalized and installed KS-10 on the ship ... so what? According to her air defense capabilities, she crashes Mark-12 with a bang. Although even against piston aircraft, the capabilities of the Mark-12 were clearly not enough. Without fighter cover, the US artillery ships would have ended.

                        Quote: Kars
                        He basically is not knocked down?

                        Simple logic. While the slow-moving Keith was difficult to shoot down, it is even more difficult to shoot down a jet plane. Moreover, based on clause 1, Kronstadt would have an even weaker air defense and it would not be covered by dozens of Fletchers and Girings.

                        Quote: Kars
                        I can say the same thing about your confidence in aviation of the end of the 50-beginning of the 70's

                        And here is a lie. Aviation annealed during WWII, and with the advent of jet aircraft, new weapons and new avionics (during the attack, Yamato 50 aircraft did not find a target at all, huh), the capabilities of carrier-based aviation increased significantly. The air defense capabilities, as we see from paragraph 1, remained at the same level.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Compared to the convoy of the same container ship?

                        We are talking about the escort of the AUG and the formations of warships. It requires a speed of about 30 knots. Perry developed it. "Cheap helicopter carrier" - no
                        And don't forget, Perry is universal

                        Quote: Kars
                        The whole deck is solid helipad 200 m on 30м

                        It only seems so. In order to remove / brew / cut off all unnecessary objects on the upper deck (mounts, hatches, etc.), mark out the halipeds and equip them with lighting equipment, equip fire stations, considerable funds will be required, given the dimensions of 200 m x 30 m.

                        Quote: Kars
                        the place is full, especially for helicopters and not Hariera.

                        You noticed that on deck the equipment is piled up, you can gently get on the 1 helicopter per hour. To effectively place an air wing - you need a deck + 2 hangar lift. EXPENSIVE.
                        The second point - the equipment can not be stored for a long time on the upper deck. The deck deck is clearly required.

                        Quote: Kars
                        I would have to swim to the shores of the United States, and you're talking about constant --- to the same, I pointed out that it’s not always.

                        Where to sail? Why swim? We are talking about replacing Perry with a "cheap helicopter carrier" and we see that this idea is a failure

                        Quote: Kars
                        Where does 25 meters come from? Why are you trying to put everything in a line?

                        One installation - one radar. Putting them across - 3-4 pieces will fit (two - shoot right, two - left, the question is who will cover the nasal corners)

                        Quote: Kars
                        So at least 8 multiply

                        smile Do you know the width of the "Yatagan"? 12 meters

                        Quote: Kars
                        Destroy AUG strike planes clean

                        What?
                        Here are some more figures for the "Wave": Maximum target overload - 3-4G at altitudes up to 4000 m and 2-3G at heights up to 10000 m. Combat effectiveness of air defense systems - 12%

                        Quote: Kars
                        And what could the B-52 do without the fighter cover of the breakthrough deep into the territory of the USSR?

                        Could it really be the deck A-3 Skyworior?
                        NATO had plenty of ground bases with carriers from the heavy B-52 to the maneuverable fighter-bomber F-105. Germany, Turkey, Iran, Norway, Japan ...

                        About Mark-34 aircraft torpedo:
                        http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_PostWWII.htm
                        1948 year. Did not impress?
                        Then later development - Mark-44, the beginning of 60's

                        Quote: Kars
                        Again, why are they going to Kronstat and not the destroyer?

                        Enough for everyone
                      30. Kars
                        Kars 14 June 2012 10: 01
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        We only consider realistic systems, ready to be installed on a cruiser. Well, let's say, we finalized and installed KS-10 on the ship ... so what? According to her air defense capabilities, she crashes Mark-12

                        And the KS-30 type is not realistic? And why would she lose?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Simple logic

                        I don’t see the logic to regret, And the kate and Zero got off, as did Skyhawks later.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Moreover, based on p. 1, Kronstadt would have had even weaker air defense and would not have been covered by dozens of Fletchers and Gearings.

                        Vryatli he would have had stalknutsa with 58 OS in all its glory, in Korea, the US Air Force did not differ much.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        attack time Yamato 50 aircraft did not find the target at all, yeah

                        M then they didn’t find it themselves either, they disappeared into Bermuda triangles, flew the devil knows where, and Yamato didn’t even have a goal to attack the AUG, he went to Okinawa to flood in shallow water and become a battery.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        You noticed that on deck the equipment is piled up, you can gently get on the 1 helicopter per hour. To effectively place an air wing - you need a deck + 2 hangar lift. EXPENSIVE.
                        The second point - the equipment can not be stored for a long time on the upper deck. The deck deck is clearly required.

                        Does it make you feel complicated that the below deck hangar is a van der wafer and not just a room, but to make the 10 ton lift you need technology on par with the atom bomb, and that 200 helicopters cannot be placed on the deck 30 meters long and 20 meters wide that they rot in a month under a tarp.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        We're talking about replacing Perry with a "cheap helicopter carrier

                        so it’s an excellent replacement, cheap, efficient. Especially to ensure the convoy PLO, and it can at least somehow provide protection from surface ships.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And don't forget, Perry is universal

                        So it can’t do anything well, just a little bit ----- does a chef work with a Swiss army knife, for example? And it’s universal, open canned food and cut it.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        One installation - one radar. Putting them across - 3-4 pieces will fit (two - shoot right, two - left, the question is who will cover the nasal corners)

                        I have already quietly installed 8 only in the stern, + 4 in the bow.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        What?
                        Here are some more figures for the "Volna": Maximum target overload - 3-4G at altitudes up to 4000 m and 2-3G at altitudes up to 10000 m. The combat effectiveness of the air defense system is 12%

                        The protsets are good, but as I understand it ... ZRK Wave in your understanding is a useless device?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Could it really be the deck A-3 Skyworior?
                        NATO had plenty of ground bases with carriers from the heavy B-52 to the maneuverable fighter-bomber F-105. Germany, Turkey, Iran, Norway, Japan ...


                        Nothing from the North, And at least somehow ---- at least the chances of B-52 and L-47 are honestly zero, so that they can be eliminated in principle.
                        And here the F-8 Krusader could at least somehow try to cover the breakthrough of the bombers. By the way, I did not say a word that the AUG bombers would be attempted to break through in depth, the AUG will try to suppress air defense and launch attacks at coastal airfields.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTUS_PostWWII.htm

                        Not impressed, the speed of 11 and 17 nodes, the search for hydrophones, the only chance to drop off course in the direction of the ship, to catch up or to the side will not work, in full view of the radar.
                        44 --- 6 thousand yards, a charge of as many as 34 kg of explosives (of course more powerful than TNT)

                        It’s interesting, but from the moment that the Fritz began to use acoustic torpedoes in the year? 43? 44? Have you come up with any ways to counter it?
                      31. Santa Fe
                        14 June 2012 22: 43
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        KS-30 type is not realistic? And why would she lose?

                        1. She's too heavy and inert compared to Mark-12
                        2. She shoots slower
                        3. On Kronstadt they will fit a little
                        As you can see, there are no prerequisites for strengthening air defense. Aviation developed, anti-aircraft artillery remained in the same place (if it didn’t get worse)

                        Quote: Kars
                        Both the kites and the Zero went astray, as did the Skyhawks later.

                        714 lost ships (more than half - from aircraft), however

                        Quote: Kars
                        Vryatli he would have had stalknutsa with 58 OS in all its glory

                        But this is very likely. Third world after all

                        Quote: Kars
                        then they didn’t find it themselves either, disappeared in Bermuda triangles, flew the devil knows where,

                        Well, you already find fault with it. Isolated cases not comparable to 50 lost Avengers

                        Quote: Kars
                        Yamato did not even have a goal to attack the AUG, he went to Okinawa to flood in shallow water and become a battery.

                        This is completely irrelevant. If aviation detects a connection in 300 km, it will destroy it in a couple of hours (Kronstadt and a couple of destroyers will roll out even faster)

                        Quote: Kars
                        It feels like a deck hangar is a van der wafer and not just a room,

                        If it is not initially provided for by the project, then it will be required completely change the inside of the ship + fuel storage, ammunition, living quarters for 600 people
                        The hangar is not just an empty place, it is a gas station, ventilation, fire fighting equipment ...

                        Quote: Kars
                        and to make a lift on 10 tons are needed

                        A couple of such gizmos will pull in several million. Waiter, write down ...

                        Quote: Kars
                        and that 200 helicopters cannot be placed on a deck 30 meters long and 20 meters wide, and that they rot in a month under a tarp

                        What month, Perry, half a year on the go. And so from year to year.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Yeshovaya, effective. Especially for providing PLO convoys

                        You never answered: What to do with providing PLO for warship connections? "Cheap helicopter carrier" corny will not keep up with them

                        Quote: Kars
                        So nothing can do well, just a little bit

                        Old tale. In reality, it happens in different ways.
                        Perry did an excellent job with the PLO, there’s nothing to blame him for.
                        And its anti-aircraft armament was equal to 1/2 of the cruiser "California" + Harpoons in case of a direct collision with Gaddafi's MRK
                        Perry carried good artillery, and in addition to the escort, he successfully chased drug couriers and pirates.
                        Fact - there is always work for Perry - from chasing Soviet nuclear submarines to delivering gum. aid to Georgia. "Cheap helicopter carrier" was not close.

                        Quote: Kars
                        I have already quietly installed 8 only in the stern, + 4 in the bow.

                        Please tell (or rather draw) how they are located.
                        Given that:
                        - radius of obturation ZIF-101 - 12 meters
                        - dimensions of the Yatagan radar - 5x12 m
                        - each PU requires its own radar
                        - Radars and launchers cannot be located close to each other - launchers are fenced off with a shield
                        How can 8 "Waves" be placed on an area of ​​65x30 meters (taking into account that the stern part is rapidly narrowing)

                        And if along the sides of the 64 Termite, the entire aft platform is an air defense system, then where will dozens of KS-30 be located? laughing

                        Quote: Kars
                        ZRK Wave in your understanding a useless device?

                        Yes. Before the appearance of the "Storm", the air defense of Soviet ships did not in fact exist
                        The Wave has too big restrictions on the parameters of the target being fired and a low rate of fire

                        Quote: Kars
                        Nothing from the north

                        How is it nothing - there is Norway

                        Quote: Kars
                        ACG will try to suppress air defense and nansesty attacks on coastal airfields.

                        You might think that F-100 SuperSaber, F-105 Thunderer or Phantom could not do this, flying from the bases of Vadsø or Inzhirlik

                        Deck Aviation - for completely different tasks

                        Quote: Kars
                        It’s interesting, but from the moment that the Fritz began to use acoustic torpedoes in the year? 43? 44? Have you come up with any ways to counter it?

                        So, there is a powerful, but uncontrollable Mark-13 (warhead-300 kg)
                        Or weak but controlled Mark-44
                        Through such torpedoes, the Japanese fleet was drowned with a bang
                        The air defense of the USSR Navy was at the level of the Japanese fleet (and maybe even weaker, due to the small number of ship connections)
                        Conclusion - Kronstadt has no chance
                      32. Kars
                        Kars 14 June 2012 23: 12
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        2. She shoots slower

                        12 in minutes I think that's enough
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        3. On Kronstadt they will fit a little

                        And there’s not a lot of them,
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        As you can see, there are no prerequisites for strengthening air defense. Aviation developed, anti-aircraft artillery remained in the same place (if it didn’t get worse)

                        Some wild ideas --- everything was getting better, faster than the 20-30 mm, even faster than aviation.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        714 lost ships (more than half - from aircraft), however

                        And you don’t want to breed by periods? And just give how many planes were shot down?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        this is very likely. Third world after all

                        Then where is the factor of surprise? How do you explain this concentration?

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Well, you already find fault with it. Isolated cases not comparable to 50 lost Avengers

                        Well, do you cultivate randomness? They’ll take and by accident they will take the left barge for Kronstad and fly to hell on small cakes ---- by the way, this is also included in the plan --- distracting groups.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        This is completely irrelevant. If aviation detects a connection in 300 km, it will destroy it in a couple of hours (Kronstadt and a couple of destroyers will roll out even faster)

                        Kronstadt and a couple of destroyers will be beaten off and destroyed by aircraft carriers. By the way, what about night operations - are the 50-60 super efficient?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        What month, Perry, half a year on the go. And so from year to year

                        This is personally his problem, and American taxpayers (or rather a printing press)

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        You still did not answer: what to do with the provision of PLO for the formations of warships? "Cheap helicopter carrier" corny will not keep up with them

                        And no one is going to put him in a combination of warships, they themselves must provide their PLO (And the Americans even have an aircraft carrier) with the help of airborne helicopters, ASGs and warrants.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Please tell (or rather draw) how they are located.
                        Given that:
                        - radius of obturation ZIF-101 - 12 meters
                        - dimensions of the Yatagan radar - 5x12 m
                        - each PU requires its own radar
                        - Radars and launchers cannot be located close to each other - launchers are fenced off with a shield
                        How can 8 "Waves" be placed on an area of ​​65x30 meters (considering that the stern part is rapidly narrowing


                        12 + 12 + 5 = 29 meters of 32
                        Radar in the middle on a pedestal and on add-ons.

                        65X30 does not include narrowing the deck (we’ll put a radar a little further)
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Yes. Before the appearance of the "Storm", the air defense of Soviet ships did not in fact exist
                        The Wave has too big restrictions on the parameters of the target being fired and a low rate of fire

                        At least something, but how the Storm would have appeared if it had been used, but the mentioned period will also go.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        You might think that F-100 SuperSaber, F-105 Thunderer or Phantom could not do this, flying from the bases of Vadsø or Inzhirlik

                        Deck Aviation - for completely different tasks

                        Really? Other tasks? And what did she do in Korea then? And from the bases is also good, but further.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        So, there is a powerful, but uncontrollable Mark-13 (warhead-300 kg)

                        Sense from her.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Or weak but controlled Mark-44

                        I mentioned about it --- 6 a thousand yards, only from the course angles, where even the main caliber will hit, and are not affected by the change in the course ---- everything will be visible.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Conclusion - Kronstadt has no chance

                        A heavy missile cruiser with an escort will destroy Midway AUG and will have good chances to return to base.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Through such torpedoes, the Japanese fleet was drowned with a bang
                        Well, you never know why the Japanese fleet drowned, and how did the Allied fleet sink with acoustic torpedoes? So, there was no cure for German acoustic torpedoes?
                        And a little about kamikaze
                      33. Santa Fe
                        15 June 2012 00: 20
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        12 in minutes I think that's enough

                        The lighter Mark-12 made 15-20 shots. min
                        Degradation?

                        Quote: Kars
                        And there are a lot of them

                        On the Iowa - 20 Mark-12
                        On "Yamato" - 24 12-inch + 155 XNUMX mm (did not help at all)

                        Quote: Kars
                        everything was getting better, faster, especially 20-30 mm

                        For example, AK-230 (1959 year). 30 mm, 2000 rds / min.
                        But, on Yamato there was an 152 submachine gun (I understand that they are much weaker than the AK-230, on the other hand, the A-4 is not a slow-moving, clumsy Avenger)
                        And the most important thing - 152 machines did not help

                        Quote: Kars
                        give how many planes were shot down

                        With pleasure! How many Japanese aircraft were shot down by means of air defense ships? (excluding air combat)

                        Quote: Kars
                        By the way, what about night actions - are the 50-60 super efficient?

                        The chances are less than in the afternoon, but they are still great.
                        Do not forget, AUG has 5-6 hours in stock

                        Quote: Kars
                        (And the Americans even have an aircraft carrier) with the help of airborne helicopters, GAS and warrants.

                        For amers, the concept is simple and effective: there are strike ships (aircraft carriers and carriers of the Kyrgyz Republic) and there is an escort. For an escort you need destroyers or frigates (Perry coped well in 80)
                        In addition, which ships will patrol in peacetime on communications?
                        So why throw hundreds of millions into a "cheap helicopter carrier" (which can only drive convoys from dry cargo ships - this trough is not capable of more), if 50 small ships of the same type will solve all the urgent tasks (escort / patrol / special)?

                        Quote: Kars
                        12 + 12 + 5 = 29 meters of 32
                        Radar in the middle on a pedestal and on add-ons.
                        65X30 does not include narrowing the deck (we’ll put a radar a little further)

                        It’s better to draw a sketch in Paint, I’m curious to see how eight PUs fit

                        Quote: Kars
                        At least something, but how the Storm would appear would have used it.

                        We are interested in the era of the mid-50's - the end of the 60's. Kronstadt walks without air defense

                        Quote: Kars
                        Really? Other tasks? And what did she do in Korea then?

                        In Korea, another geography and other war

                        Really someone will drive the AUG into the Black Sea, if there are air bases in Turkey.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Then where is the factor of surprise? How do you explain this concentration?

                        Escalating international conflict. At the end of the 50s, the United States had 6 large strike aircraft carriers + the Oriskani class. By 1960 there will be new Kitty Hawk and the nuclear powered Enterprise.

                        Quote: Kars
                        So, there is a powerful, but uncontrollable Mark-13 (warhead-300 kg)
                        Sense from her.

                        Why, it was she who drowned "Yamato" and other monsters. What could prevent the massive use of Mark-13 against "Kronstadt"
                      34. Kars
                        Kars 15 June 2012 10: 18
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The lighter Mark-12 made 15-20 shots. min
                        Degradation

                        degradation is if Mark-13 starts to shoot 10 shots.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        On the Iowa - 20 Mark-12
                        On "Yamato" - 24 five-inch + 12 155 mm (did not help at all


                        In principle, I prefer Dakot anti-aircraft weapons more.
                        And don’t forget that even Yamato’s 18 inch had anti-aircraft shells --- but the effectiveness of Japanese shells of all calibers was controversial.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        And most importantly - 152 machines did not help

                        Management systems were not quite kosher.
                        And in principle, the actions of Tent Ichigo are a lot of illogical and mistakes, so it’s impossible to draw an analogy directly.
                        By the way, what about the article about the death of Yamato? I will provide for the mass and debate there.
                        And so who participated in the strike on Yamato-In the attack involved-
                        Vali 58.1 aircraft carriers: heavy
                        Hornet, Hancock, Bennington and Lungs
                        Bello Wood and San Jacinto, as well as
                        58.3 groups: heavy "Essex", "Ban-
                        Ker Hill "and lungs" Bataan "and" Cabot ".

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        It’s better to draw a sketch in Paint, I’m curious to see how eight PUs fit

                        not an artist I ---- cut out cardboard boxes on a scale and silhouette. I helped.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        We are interested in the era of the mid-50's - the end of the 60's. Kronstadt walks without air defense

                        The wave is not sugar either, so Midway has practically no chance.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Really someone will drive the AUG into the Black Sea, if there are air bases in Turkey.

                        Why the Black Sea? Still remember the Baltic --- Pacific coast and the north.
                        And that in Korea it was impossible to fly from Japanese airfields and from South Korea? But no, for some reason aircraft carriers fought there.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Escalating international conflict. At the end of the 50s, the United States had 6 large strike aircraft carriers + the Oriskani class. By 1960 there will be new Kitty Hawk and the nuclear powered Enterprise.


                        Well, this crowd must be divided into several fleets, and still they will not reach 58.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Why, it was she who drowned "Yamato" and other monsters. What could prevent the massive use of Mark-13 against "Kronstadt"

                        More modern air defense and radar than Yamato had, higher speed --- Yamato more than 24 nodes. Torpedo bombers were provided with bomber strikes --- and they have no chance against the Wave and anti-aircraft guns of controlled radar — they must strike with SP bombs. besides how many midway jets carry?
                      35. Santa Fe
                        15 June 2012 15: 24
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        degradation is if Mark-13 starts to shoot 10 shots.

                        We are faced with the fact: the air defense capabilities of the KS-30 are inferior to the Mark-12.
                        Also, it is quite obvious that the number of KS-30 on Kronstadt will be less than on Japanese or American heavy cruisers.
                        What is the conclusion?

                        Quote: Kars
                        And so who participated in the strike on Yamato-In the attack involved-
                        Vali 58.1 aircraft carriers: heavy
                        Hornet, Hancock, Bennington and Lungs
                        Bello Wood and San Jacinto, as well as
                        58.3 groups: heavy "Essex", "Ban-
                        Ker Hill "and lungs" Bataan "and" Cabot ".

                        We have a fact - 270 planes went on the attack, 50 of them did not find the target. Moreover, the planes did not roll immediately, but in waves. As a result, 180 anti-aircraft installations of the battleship and 8 escort ships shot down 10 aircraft.

                        Quote: Kars
                        By the way, what about the article on the death of Yamato?

                        Sure soon

                        Quote: Kars
                        Management systems were not quite kosher.

                        But how many trunks !!! Plus 8 escort ships!
                        And they shot down only 10 slow-moving Avengers (in fact, the usual statistics when a ship and aircraft meet)


                        Quote: Kars
                        not an artist I ---- cut out cardboard boxes on a scale and silhouette. I helped.

                        Whatever one may say, three fit. Another question - if the superstructure is occupied by the Yatagan radar, the stern - by the SAM, along the sides - 64 Termites ... then where to put the KS-30?

                        Quote: Kars
                        The wave is not sugar either, so Midway has practically no chance.

                        The wave was only suitable for firing single targets at medium altitudes flying at the right speeds in the right direction. Range of air defense systems -18 kilometers

                        Quote: Kars
                        -Pacific coast and north.

                        What is interesting on the Pacific coast? Vladivostok - easier to get from Japan. Several bases in Kamchatka? So there, without AUG, you could figure it out)))
                        North? There is Norway.

                        Quote: Kars
                        And that in Korea it was impossible to fly from Japanese airfields and from South Korea?

                        From Norway to Murmansk - about 200 km. From Japan to the nearest DPRK point - 600

                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, this crowd must be divided into several fleets, and still they will not reach 58.

                        Come on! Only 15 Essexes were upgraded to the Oriskani level

                        Quote: Kars
                        More modern air defense and radar than Yamato had, higher speed --- Yamato more than 24 nodes.

                        Kronstadt anti-aircraft artillery is slightly superior to the Japanese in quality, and inferior to it in quantity by an order of magnitude
                        Yamato's design speed is 27 knots. Not that much of a difference with Kronstadt. After hitting several torpedoes, the speed dropped to 14 nodes.

                        Quote: Kars
                        The attacks of torpedo bombers were provided by bomber attacks --- and they have no chance against the Wave and anti-aircraft guns of radar-guided radar - they need to strike with SP bombs.

                        The slow-moving Helldivers also had no chance against the battleship's cannons and her escort. However, losses are single strange right?

                        Quote: Kars
                        And again, how many Midway jets carry?

                        There are numbers:
                        CVA-20 Bennington (Essex type), 1957 year. Wing:
                        - one squadron of Fury, Banshee, Cougar
                        - Three squadrons A-1 Skyrader (including several electronic warfare)
                        - several "Savages" and photographic reconnaissance "Cougar"
                        Let me remind you, this is 1957 year. There is still no Wave, nor AK-230 - Kronstadt ends

                        CVA-34 Oriskany (type "Essex"), 1965. Wing:
                        - two squadrons of the Crusaders
                        - three squadrons A-4
                        - Squadron AWACS on the Tracers
                        - squadron EKA-3 (performed two roles - tankers / EW)
                        - a pair of Crusader scouts


                        The dispute about the "cheap helicopter carrier" suddenly ended. smile
                      36. Kars
                        Kars 15 June 2012 18: 42
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        We are faced with the fact: the air defense capabilities of the COP-30 are inferior to Mark-12

                        But progress came to the USSR, and KS-30 could be improved.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        KS-30 on Kronstadt will be less than on Japanese or American heavy cruisers.

                        As much as in Alaska
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        We have a fact - 270 planes went on the attack, 50 of them did not find the target

                        We have the fact that heaps of aircraft carriers - by the way, not everything is on the list - still 58.4
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        But how many trunks !!! Plus 8 escort ships!
                        And they shot down only 10 slow-moving Avengers (in fact, the usual statistics when a ship and aircraft meet)

                        An indicator of the disgusting quality of air defense in Japan, and far from ordinary.
                        You still didn’t want to bring the loss of ships per period, and how much the Japanese paid for them planes --- especially in 44 and 45.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Whatever one may say, three fit. Another question - if the superstructure is occupied by the Yatagan radar, the stern - by the SAM, along the sides - 64 Termites ... then where to put the KS-30?

                        Eight minimum. Termites occupy only 80 meters of the side and are located at the edges, without interfering with the installation of artillery.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The wave was only suitable for firing single targets at medium altitudes flying at the right speeds in the right direction. Range of air defense systems -18 kilometers

                        And he will be attacked by many single targets,
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Yamato's design speed is 27 knots. Not that much of a difference with Kronstadt

                        He gave it several times, and the 3 node is also something.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        hit multiple torpedoes speed dropped to 14 nodes.

                        Well then nothing will get to Kronstad, not those times for torpedoes.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The slow-moving Helldivers also had no chance against the battleship's cannons and her escort. Nevertheless, the losses are isolated and strange, right?

                        The complexity of the strike from a dozen aircraft carriers that you can say.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        There are numbers:
                        CVA-20 Bennington (Essex type), 1957 year. Wing:
                        - one squadron of Fury, Banshee, Cougar
                        - Three squadrons A-1 Skyrader (including several electronic warfare)
                        - several "Savages" and photographic reconnaissance "Cougar"
                        Let me remind you, this is 1957 year. There is still no Wave, nor AK-230 - Kronstadt ends

                        CVA-34 Oriskany (type "Essex"), 1965. Wing:
                        - two squadrons of the Crusaders
                        - three squadrons A-4
                        - Squadron AWACS on the Tracers
                        - squadron EKA-3 (performed two roles - tankers / EW)
                        - a pair of Crusader scouts


                        I don’t see numbers. How much?
                        1957 makes no sense, there is no Termite.
                        In 1965, Midway has no chance at all.
                      37. Kars
                        Kars 15 June 2012 23: 49
                        0
                        Just what you need --- and so you can pick it up.
                        For example, pre-production.
                      38. Santa Fe
                        16 June 2012 01: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        and COP-30 could have improved

                        It can be said with the same confidence that with the appearance of the Kronstadt, the AUG would have immediately adopted a powerful homing torpedo based on the Mark-13 +. The issue of purchasing the Swedish RB04 anti-ship missiles was considered.
                        In short, let's start from realistic systems.

                        Quote: Kars
                        As much as in Alaska

                        Not enough. Considering the success of "Alaska" - two shot down aircraft during the service feel . And not the fact that of 127 mm

                        Quote: Kars
                        An indicator of the disgusting quality of air defense in Japan, and far from ordinary.

                        The Japanese at all?
                        Far from ordinary? Give an opposite example.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Eight minimum.

                        Where from? Even if you build a crazy flyover from the 4's radar on the aft superstructure (according to an elevated scheme, two in front and two in the rear) - only four launchers.

                        Quote: Kars
                        it will be attacked by many single targets,

                        So it’s not just solitary goals, since there are many smile

                        Quote: Kars
                        Well then nothing will get to Kronstad, not those times for torpedoes.

                        What will stop them from getting if Kronstadt’s air defense is worse than on Amer’s ships during the war?

                        Quote: Kars
                        The complexity of the strike from a dozen aircraft carriers that you can say.

                        Moreover, the aircraft carriers, we are talking about the number of aircraft that took part in the strike - there were 220 pieces (aircraft wing 2,5 aircraft carriers)

                        Quote: Kars
                        1957 makes no sense, there is no Termite.

                        Why do you like Termite so much?
                        There are guns?

                        Quote: Kars
                        In 1965, Midway has no chance at all.

                        What is the reason for this? Is it possible that the "Volna", which cannot shoot below 100 m (in reality - below 600), will be able to prevent an attack by torpedo bombers?
                        Can the 12 KS-30 really be able to beat off hundreds of attack aircraft? This never happened during the war - the ship sank too fast
                      39. Kars
                        Kars 16 June 2012 10: 29
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        It can be said with the same confidence that with the appearance of "Kronstadt", the AUG would have immediately adopted a powerful homing torpedo based on Mark-13


                        Yes, please, only it would be accepted in any case if it could be developed. But it is not fate that is visible.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Considered the acquisition of Swedish RCC RB04.

                        Also good --- a crude system from which even primitive REB helps a lot.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The Japanese at all?

                        And that is not clear.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Give an opposite example.

                        Yes, all repulsions of kamikaze attacks in 1945
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        "Alaska" - two downed aircraft during the service

                        Well, how many attacks on Alaska did the Japanese.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Moreover, the aircraft carriers, we are talking about the number of aircraft that took part in the strike - there were 220 pieces (aircraft wing 2,5 aircraft carriers)

                        What’s the problem? Pick up 220 planes from one aircraft carrier. And the question is settled ---- more precisely --- some didn’t find Yamato, just the ratio of fighters, bombers, torpedo bombers.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        What will stop them from getting if Kronstadt’s air defense is worse than on Amer’s ships during the war?

                        Kronstatt air defense and SAM. And for your information on American ships were not guided anti-aircraft missiles.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Why do you like Termite so much?
                        There are guns?

                        It’s easier to send a submarine.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        What is the reason for this? Is it possible that the "Volna", which cannot shoot below 100 m (in reality - below 600), will be able to prevent an attack by torpedo bombers?

                        It will prevent the attacks of bombers, and without this link, the attack of the torpedo bombers would drown.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Can the 12 KS-30 really be able to beat off hundreds of attack aircraft?

                        Right hundreds if on the midway of all 65 jets.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        This never happened during the war - the ship sank too fast

                        Really? How so that all the ships didn’t sink? And even left to test nuclear weapons on a bikini?
  7. Arct
    Arct 10 June 2012 15: 45
    0
    A good escort machine for a great war and a complete yoke for any other purpose.
    1. Santa Fe
      10 June 2012 15: 49
      +1
      Just the opposite. Cheap and effective tool for local operations
      1. Kars
        Kars 10 June 2012 15: 56
        +1
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        for local operations

        If they mean the persecution of Somali pirates and the delivery of humanitarian aid to Georgia.
        1. Santa Fe
          10 June 2012 17: 07
          +1
          Quote: Kars
          If they mean the persecution of Somali pirates and the delivery of humanitarian aid to Georgia.

          The 50 fleet had been preparing for World War III for years, but all this time it fought with Somali pirates and Vietnamese torpedo boats. Funny right?
          1. Kars
            Kars 10 June 2012 18: 01
            0
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Third world

            One clarification --- Nuclear.
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Quote: Kars
            And which of his peers has the maximum? Maybe at Sheffield?
            Even taking into account the chance, “Stark” was 3 times more tenacious than “Sheffield”.

            The quote is not mine.
            accidents? there are too many of them to be just accidents. And why three times? Sheffield did not drown for a week, and it is not known what else Stark would have been in the Persian Gulf, but the Atlantic.
            1. Santa Fe
              10 June 2012 21: 58
              +1
              Quote: Kars
              One clarification --- Nuclear.

              Yeah. And they fought with mines in the Suez Canal and with the old Argentine A-4 "Skyhawks"

              Quote: Kars
              accidents? too many to be just accidents

              Accident is the main rule

              Quote: Kars
              And why three times?

              Sheffield - 1 Hit
              Stark - 2 hits + warhead explosion

              Quote: Kars
              and it is not known what else would Stark be not in the Persian Gulf, but the Atlantic.

              And it is not known what would have happened if Stark received only one unexploded Exocet.
              Facts are a stubborn thing: Stark received much more serious injuries, but the fire was put out and saved the ship
              1. Kars
                Kars 10 June 2012 22: 07
                0
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                And they fought with mines in the Suez Canal and with the old Argentine A-4 Skyhawks

                They fought like that, especially with mines, since it doesn’t count
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Accident is the main rule

                Then it is a regularity --- that randomness happens.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Sheffield - 1 Hit
                Stark - 2 hits + warhead explosion

                Still, not three times, maybe a little bit - all the same, Stark was in greenhouse conditions.
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                And it is not known what would have happened if Stark received only one unexploded Exocet.

                Yes, probably about the same thing, except in smaller people
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                Stark received much more serious damage, but the fire was put out and saved the ship

                As for the more serious injuries, this is debatable, but as for the salvation --- then I-nki and Oklahoma .. saved ..
                1. Santa Fe
                  10 June 2012 22: 23
                  +1
                  Quote: Kars
                  They fought like that, especially with mines, since it doesn’t count

                  Operation Nimrod Spar was what the major powers' fleets were doing, instead of exchanging nuclear strikes

                  Quote: Kars
                  Then it is a regularity --- that randomness happens.

                  In! It follows that booking does not solve anything. Only adversely increases the cost.

                  Quote: Kars
                  Still, not three times, maybe a little bit - all the same, Stark was in greenhouse conditions.

                  Well, of course! 100 kg of explosives yobnulo in the cockpit

                  Quote: Kars
                  Yes, probably about the same thing, except in smaller people

                  But this is no longer a fact.

                  Quote: Kars
                  and about saved --- then I-nki and Oklahoma .. saved ..

                  Well, where is Oklahoma. Stark was on the go after 2 months
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 10 June 2012 22: 30
                    0
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    In! It follows that booking does not solve anything. Only detrimental to the cost

                    What is VO? It follows that the armor is necessary, because nothing can insure against getting into it.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    Well, of course! 100 kg of explosives yobnulo in the cockpit

                    The blasting explosion is certainly scary, but it also extinguishes the fire itself (almost extinguishes by burning oxygen and nailing the flame)
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    But this is no longer a fact.

                    as well as the fact that the stark stayed afloat during a wave at sea.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    Well, where is Oklahoma. Stark was on the go after 2 months

                    Still say combat-ready, Oklahoma would also be raised faster if it suffered alone in the entire US fleet.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    Operation "Nimrod Spar" - this is what the navies of the leading powers did

                    Here I am about the same --- nothing special.
                    1. Santa Fe
                      10 June 2012 22: 50
                      +1
                      Quote: Kars
                      It follows that the armor is necessary, because nothing can insure against the hit.

                      If there is a hit, the armor will not solve anything. As we have seen more than once with examples.


                      Quote: Kars
                      The blasting explosion is certainly scary, but it also extinguishes the fire itself (almost extinguishes by burning oxygen and nailing the flame)

                      This is in theory. In practice, that which perishes from a fire for a long time is instantly destroyed by an explosion

                      Quote: Kars
                      as well as the fact that the stark stayed afloat during a wave at sea.

                      Stark didn't burn for a week

                      Quote: Kars
                      Still say combat readiness Oklahoma t

                      Stark was on track in 2 months. He returned to duty a year later.
                      Oklahoma never returned to duty. The example is incorrect.

                      Quote: Kars
                      Here I am about the same ---nothing special.

                      Then the little cheap frigates are just right
                      By the way, what kind of armored vehicles in the foreground
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 10 June 2012 23: 11
                        +1
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        If there is a hit, the armor will not solve anything. As we have seen more than once with examples.

                        It can just destroy everything - in the pimer with Stark - 50 mm cemented armor would completely prevent damage affecting buoyancy and combat readiness.
                        So yours --- will not solve anything ---- this is an unfounded statement.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        In practice, that which perishes from a fire for a long time is instantly destroyed by an explosion

                        the effect of brisant substances in the eyes of the average man is very exaggerated. all the corruptive influence of Hollywood.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Stark didn't burn for a week

                        That's just about the explosion, you can remember, and about the proximity of the coast do not forget.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        He returned to duty through year.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Oklahoma never returned to duty

                        Was she really needed? I don’t understand why it simply didn’t go straight to the metal right away - probably so that the losses of Pearl Harbor would seem less, there was still a story about the destroyers - in general laughter.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Then the little cheap frigates are just right

                        I’m saying that it’s a cheap bargaining chip that can be used in conflicts of low intensity so as not to be sunk.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        By the way, what kind of armored vehicles in the foreground

                        BTR-50
                      2. Santa Fe
                        10 June 2012 23: 54
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        It can just destroy everything - in the pimer with Stark - 50 mm cemented armor would completely prevent damage affecting buoyancy and combat readiness.

                        50 mm - too small, but even this will monstrously increase the cost of the ship.

                        Quote: Kars
                        would prevent damage affecting buoyancy, and combat readiness.

                        Much more sense would be from the additional "Phalanx" in front + an extra set of Mk32, "Plymouth" was saved in the dipole reflectors

                        Quote: Kars
                        the effect of brisant substances in the eyes of the average man is very exaggerated. all the corruptive influence of Hollywood.

                        Remember, I once wrote about brisance, randomness on chance.
                        But as a result, Stark withstood the explosion of 100 kg of explosives + hit by another full RCC fuel

                        Quote: Kars
                        That's just about the explosion, you can remember, and about the proximity of the coast do not forget.

                        When he approached the shore the fires were extinguished, perhaps there was smoke in the lower rooms.
                        The explosion, on the contrary, turned the board and, according to your logic, should have given an oxygen flow from outside

                        Quote: Kars
                        I don’t understand why it just didn’t go to metal right away

                        So, in my opinion, they led her to cutting to the mainland, in Hawaii it was not possible

                        Quote: Kars
                        there was still a story about destroyers - generally laughter.

                        Which fell into the dock like tumblers? smile

                        Quote: Kars
                        I’m saying that it’s a cheap bargaining chip that can be used in conflicts of low intensity so as not to be sunk.

                        Who were Lehi, Belknap, California?
                      3. Kars
                        Kars 11 June 2012 09: 34
                        +1
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        50 mm - too small

                        Against Exoset - this is guaranteed to cause the destruction of warheads, and prevent the penetration of the blast wave and fragments.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        monstrously increase the cost

                        Monstrous? Yes, and so they overestimated it there without any armor. Yes, and still cheaper than after each accidental hit to build a new ship. Yes, and it is interesting to compare the monstrous cost of armor with the excellent cost of repairing Stark.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Much more sense would be from the additional "Phalanx" in front + an extra set of Mk32, "Plymouth" was saved in the dipole reflectors

                        Does this guarantee that accident does not happen? That no one will talk to London on the satellite? That the phalanx will not jam at the right time? And that 4 Exoset will not be released?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        But as a result, Stark withstood the explosion of 100 kg BB + another full fuel hit

                        Unless, of course, he completely withstood the complete loss of combat readiness and the fact that he miraculously did not go to the bottom because of the calm.
                        By the way, I have doubts that the French sold Exocets of good quality — it’s generally a miracle that they exploded. I even doubt the quality and energy characteristics of the BB BB. Once again I repeat that 100 kg is certainly a lot, but still - you can look at destruction zone ---- this is not the largest amount of explosives that led to large destruction that completely deprived the ship of combat effectiveness ---- in combat conditions (as it was, for example, in World War II) it would have been finished off.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The explosion, on the contrary, turned the board and, according to your logic, should have given an oxygen flow from outside

                        And what's the point when the main raw material for the fire has already been destroyed? And even the residual pajar was enough ------ By the way, did you see how the fires in burning oil wells extinguish the fire?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Which fell into the dock like tumblers?

                        It was also funny, but the laughter caused more how they were restored.
                        The story with the destroyers looks even more incomprehensible. The destroyer "Sho" during the raid was in a floating dock. 3 bombs hit him, oil flared up from torn fuel tanks. From the fire exploded the nasal artillery cellar. The bow of the ship was torn off to the first chimney. The dock was hastily flooded to extinguish fires, the destroyer escaped from the keel blocks and landed on the starboard side. When the dock plunged, burning oil flooded the superstructures, further disfiguring them.

                        Roughly the same thing happened with the Cassin and Downs, who were also in the dock. A bomb exploded between destroyers, and the stern of the Downs was immediately engulfed in fire. Fires immediately got out of control, the destroyer became literally white-hot. And then explosions began: oil in tanks, torpedoes, shells. The ship turned into a pile of carbonized iron. "Cassin" also caught fire, deep bombs began to burst on it. In addition, when the dock was flooded, the destroyers fell on top of each other.

                        But the Americans decided to restore these ruins! "Shaw" attached a new nose instead of a torn explosion. Cassin and Downs had to actually be rebuilt. Relatively preserved cars were inserted into new buildings. The scope and complexity of the repair best describes the commissioning dates. Downs would be repaired by 15 on November 1943, and Cassin by 6 on February 1944. It should be recalled that in this period, the Americans built new Fletcher-class destroyers in about a year and a half.

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Who were Lehi, Belknap, California?

                        Expensive bargaining chips. The USA was simply lucky that after the Second World War they had no real rival at sea.
                      4. Santa Fe
                        11 June 2012 16: 08
                        -1
                        Quote: Kars
                        Against Exoset - this is guaranteed to cause the destruction of warheads, and prevent the penetration of the blast wave and fragments.

                        Do you have exact numbers?
                        Diameter - 348 mm (almost 15 inch projectile), Mass AM.39 - 650 kg, Speed ​​"Exocet" - 0,93M (300 m / s). Warhead - semi-armor-piercing, weight of warhead-165 kg. Even if we take into account that 50 mm armor will not penetrate (if it does, they paid for the armor in vain), then in recent discussions there was an interesting sign from which it follows that side damage from a 305 mm high-explosive projectile can be significantly reduced when the armor thickness is at least 100 mm

                        Quote: Kars
                        Monstrous? Yes they already overestimated it there without any armor

                        Where does infa come from?

                        Quote: Kars
                        Does this guarantee that accident does not happen? That no one will talk to London on the satellite? That the phalanx will not jam at the right time? And that 4 Exoset will not be released?

                        From accident and armor does not protect.

                        Quote: Kars
                        Yes, and it is interesting to compare the monstrous cost of armor with the excellent cost of repairing Stark.

                        142 MILLION at prices 1987, 1 / 2 cost of new. Not impressive

                        Quote: Kars
                        By the way, I have doubts that the French sold Exocets of good quality ---- in general it is a miracle that they exploded. I even doubt the quality and energy characteristics of the BB

                        According to the developer of the anti-ship missile system, Aerospatiae, during the war between Iran and Iraq in the Persian Gulf, 39 ships and vessels were damaged by Exocet AM.112 missiles launched from Iraqi Air Force planes (60 hit accurately, 52 is possible). 57 ships and vessels were seriously damaged, only one incident without an explosion was noted.

                        Quote: Kars
                        It was also funny, but the laughter caused more how they were restored.

                        To reduce moral damage. But they were rebuilt, and Stark's injuries were much less severe, through 2 months. from crossed the ocean under its own power

                        Quote: Kars
                        Who were Lehi, Belknap, California?
                        Expensive change coins

                        Who then were 58, 1134, 1134-A?

                        Quote: Kars
                        The USA was just lucky that after World War II they had no real rival at sea.

                        But, you must admit, their Navy was equipped with the latest technology. No one had better and could not have been, given those. 60's level
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 11 June 2012 16: 31
                        +1
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Diameter - 348 mm (almost 15 inch projectile), Weight AM.39 - 650 kg, Speed ​​"Exocet" - 0,93M (300 m / s). Warhead - semi-armor-piercing, weight of warhead-165 kg.

                        381 mm mass 900 kg speed 747m / s-600 m / s and add the structure of the armor-shell projectile, which is almost continuous, compared to exoset like a chicken egg.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        side damage from 305 mm HE shell can be significantly reduced when the armor thickness is at least 100 mm

                        Even a high-explosive projectile has great kinetic energy,
                        and from the analysis of tsushima
                        And about the penetration of thick armor, even no speech
                        was, but also relatively thin 76-mm reservation plate anti-
                        mine casemates and 25-50-mm plate armored deck easily withstand
                        Wali hit Japanese 305-mm shells.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        From accident and armor does not protect.

                        That's right, it will protect against Exosets, and minimize damage.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        112 ships and ships were damaged (60 hits installed accurately, 52-possible). 57 ships and vessels learned serious damage, only one case of defeat without explosion was noted.

                        strange and what then - is it possible ..? And from 112 only 57 are seriously damaged, and these are mostly civilian ships, it turns out 100 kg of explosives is not so scary?

                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        142 MILLION at prices 1987, 1 / 2 cost of new. Not impressive

                        Is the cost of armor for Perry (or the construction of a ship similar in capabilities) 142 a million dollars? Will it be made from rare-earth materials?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        they were rebuilt, and Stark's damage was much less severe, after 2 months. from crossed the ocean under its own power

                        Of course, they rebuilt again, etc. ---- but Stark became combat-ready in a year and 142 a million dollars ----- the same moral upsurge.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Who then were 58, 1134, 1134-A?

                        I relate to ours in about the same way, went on about the trends ---- at least they knew right away that the tugs with the USA would not be received, but they could not resolve to the asymmetric answer.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        But, you must admit, their Navy was equipped with the latest technology. No one had better and could not have been, given those. 60's level

                        It's hard to argue with that --- but those who print dollars could afford it.
                      6. Santa Fe
                        11 June 2012 16: 51
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        381 mm mass 900 kg speed 747m / s-600 m / s and add the structure of the armor-shell projectile, which is almost continuous, compared to exoset like a chicken egg.

                        Nobody said that Exocet is equal to 15 'for armor-piercing. But how much does 15 'penetrate under normal conditions, at an angle of 90 degrees?

                        Quote: Kars
                        and from the analysis of tsushima

                        But what then drowned something ?? 4 EDB, the only surviving Eagle - in the picture

                        Quote: Kars
                        Is the cost of armor for Perry (or the construction of a ship similar in capabilities) 142 a million dollars? Will it be made from rare-earth materials?

                        Not less, Material + manufacture + installation.
                        1. Consider you have to re-create the body, and to manufacture and bend 50 mm armor plates - this is not 10 mm luminium
                        2. Weight spiral - GEM "Perry" and so it was at the limit

                        Quote: Kars
                        but those who print dollars could afford it.

                        For instance? "Enterprise", "J. Washington" and "Long Beach" (the scourge is, of course, show-offs, but there were more effective cruisers - Albany)
                      7. Santa Fe
                        11 June 2012 16: 54
                        +1
                        EBR Eagle, 25 mm easily kept hitting 305 mm HE shells
                      8. Kars
                        Kars 11 June 2012 17: 16
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        EBR Eagle, 25 mm easily kept hitting 305 mm HE shells

                        How the video survived.

                        However, the "Eagle" built according to this project, despite being hit by 170 large-caliber shells, retained its hull protected by armor.
                      9. Kars
                        Kars 21 June 2012 20: 41
                        0
                        Cool photo of how armor holds and how construction does not hold.
                      10. Kars
                        Kars 11 June 2012 16: 57
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        But how many punches 15 'under normal conditions, at an angle of 90 degrees

                        And how much will a chicken egg break? And why is it only under 90 degrees.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        But what then drowned something ?? 4 EDB, the only surviving Eagle - in the picture

                        And that someone was going to launch exonets from 150 on one vessel?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Not less, Material + manufacture + installation.
                        1. Consider you have to re-create the body, and to manufacture and bend 50 mm armor plates - this is not 10 mm luminium
                        2. Weight spiral - GEM "Perry" and so it was at the limit


                        Will quote yourself ---
                        Quote: Kars
                        similar in OPPORTUNITIES ship)
                        For less money the Germans built Count Spee.
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        For example?

                        What is an example? FRB?
                      11. Santa Fe
                        11 June 2012 17: 21
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        And that someone was going to launch exonets from 150 on one vessel?

                        Not at all like that.
                        5 ... 10 305 mm shells + several 254 and 203 mm hit the Eagle
                        Eagle's displacement - 4 times more "Perry" + powerful armor
                        After the battle, the ship was completely unusable. We want Perry to be as good as new after being hit by Exocet.

                        Quote: Kars
                        For less money the Germans built Count Spee.

                        Explain the thought
                      12. Kars
                        Kars 11 June 2012 17: 32
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Not at all like that.

                        Strange, even Novikov is a surf more than you just mention, and the exoset will grow and grow up to 12 inches. By the way, who told you that he lost combat capability?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Explain the thought

                        I do not propose to take the ready-made Peri and rebuild it, when building from scratch a vessel similar in capabilities to the frigate Perry with the introduction of armor into the set of the vessel and instead of sheathing its price will increase by 142 a million dollars?
                      13. Kars
                        Kars 11 June 2012 22: 56
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        But how many punches 15 '

                        By the way, how do you feel about this article?
                        http://www.igstab.ru/materials/Pereslegin/Per_Linkor.htm
                      14. Santa Fe
                        11 June 2012 23: 07
                        +1
                        Nonetheless fact: 4 EDB drowned despite armor and colossal dimensions

                        The fifth - the Eagle - lost his weapons and fire control systems after being hit by a dozen heavy shells, from a hundred 6 'and 3', according to your logic, the armor should have saved. Yes, there is not much to argue about - you can see everything in the photo.

                        Quote: Kars
                        I do not propose to take the ready-made Peri and rebuild it, when building from scratch a vessel similar in capabilities to the frigate Perry with the introduction of armor into the set of the vessel and instead of sheathing its price will increase by 142 a million dollars?

                        What did you think!
                        1 aspect - Manufacturing and installation will be complicated by an order of magnitude, you will have to completely redesign the set
                        2 aspect - weight spiral. Perry and so with difficulty moving, GEM on the limit. I would have to add a couple more turbines, fuel to them. All this will lead to the growth of the ship and a monstrous, compared with the original, increase in value.

                        Question - why all this? The main opponent, the USSR, did not use Exosets. He had cool things that would sew 50 mm like cardboard. Stark - an accident from which no one is safe; only one of 70 ships suffered
                      15. Kars
                        Kars 11 June 2012 23: 50
                        0
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Nonetheless fact: 4 EDB drowned despite armor and colossal dimensions


                        And who drowned them?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        1 aspect - Manufacturing and installation will be complicated by an order of magnitude, you will have to completely redesign the set

                        No, since there WILL NOT BE ANYTHING TO REPRODUCE
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        2 aspect - weight spiral. Perry and so with difficulty moving, GEM on the limit.

                        What nafig SPIRAL? Or on the power plant that Perry light wedged?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        I would have to add a couple more turbines, fuel to them. All this will lead to the growth of the ship and a monstrous, compared with the original, increase in cost.

                        What are you? Straight to the monstrous? At 2-3 a million dollars?
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        The main adversary - the USSR did not use exosets

                        I’m talking about the USSR’s ships and I’m talking about it. And I affirm that 50 mm booking Perry would have survived Exoset,
                        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                        Stark - an accident from which no one is safe; only one of 70 ships suffered

                        How many cases of shelling US ships with anti-ship missiles?
  8. Eugene
    Eugene 10 June 2012 18: 55
    +1
    It is interesting that they were prevented from placing rocket launchers and a gun in the bow, as in the same 20385?


    PS Oleg, I'm glad that you are now good-looking) For the article plus)
  9. gregor6549
    gregor6549 11 July 2012 18: 35
    0
    I'll put in my five cents. There are two such frigates in Australia today. In the mid-70s, it may have looked, but now it is morally outdated and without serious modernization is suitable only as a museum exhibit. By the way, the United States is already taking it out of service. Yes, it is armed with a cannon, "Harpoons", torpedoes, anti-aircraft missiles, a six-barreled Vulcan cannon, there is a hangar for 2 "Sea Sprite" helicopters.
    It should be noted that with a solid range of weapons for that time, the frigate's electronics (means of detecting targets and targeting weapons, CIUS communication, etc.) are hopelessly outdated today. And without modern electronics, all his "shooters", if not completely zero, are close to him.
    What I liked about it was a system of design documentation, manufacturability. Everything is clear and simple, like a rake, and thought out to the smallest detail (except for placing the gun). Good conditions are created for the crew. And not only for officers but also for everyone else