When does power begin to lie?

Have you ever thought about a strange paradox that nobody already pays attention to? We are so accustomed to that we take it as an indisputable truth that even thoughts do not arise, that this is wrong. It was just like that always and always will be. Let it be wrong in terms of the absolute majority of normal people.

Some of us can show those who are foaming at the mouth demanded raising the retirement age? Naturally, except for those talking television heads that explained to us that it would be good. And maybe someone saw those who advocate a tariff increase? And those who, on behalf of the people, rejoiced at the next reforms in education and health care?

But there are things that do not even cause questions. Any boss today performs his duties well. The superior boss praises him. At solemn gatherings, subordinates tell how, under strict guidance, they achieve permanent labor victories and successes. True, it always lasts some period of time.

Then another boss comes, and we suddenly discover that the old one has ruined everything and everyone. And the organization, firm, enterprise, instead of constantly winning, constantly lags behind. The same members of the public, with tears in their eyes, are already talking about the problems that they raised, and the former boss dismissed them as if they were annoying flies.

Well, right Ukraine, neither give nor take.

And finally, a man came who would be rooting for the enterprise. Who cares how subordinates work, how much money they bring home on payday. The man we have been waiting for for some years. And so on until the next management shift.

A sort of vicious circle under a spherical dome.

And such questions, by the way, are numerous. After any election, regardless of who won, half of my friends say that they personally voted for the other. After any national holiday, part of the population tears the hair on the balding head to make the government think about the elderly (children, orphans, disabled people, veterans and others).

Sometimes these screams are completely fair. And the last time they are not just fair, but ... even it is not clear how to say that the authorities simply became impudent and create chaos.

And we are accustomed to all this. We laugh, we do not notice, we no longer think about why and by whom this confidence in the incorrectness of the world lies in us. Why we consider ourselves to be right, and the world around, which means that the people around us are wrong ...

Everything is fine. The electorate understands everything, our electorate is smart. And if I do not want to be an electorate? If I want to be a people? What then?

But for such "especially smart" and there VTsIOM.

Outwardly quite a worthy organization. Studies the opinion of Russians, gives predictions on the reaction of the people for some decisions. Good people who live for us. People who are not sparing their abdomen are interviewing "dear Russians" in all parts of the country to get the opinion of the people in general ...

A little more, and bluntly, "who if not them," will sound.

On the one hand, VTsIOM is necessary. Not us, not other people, as much as we would like. VTsIOM is necessary for the government to make the right decisions. And on the other hand?

For some reason, it happens that my personal opinion disagrees with the opinion of the majority of fellow citizens. I'm kind of like an enemy of my own state and people. Or so stupid that I do not understand the great ideas of our government.

Want to know that you are enemies of the state? Not all, but many? Easy. Literally, VTsIOM has just published the results of a survey on the confidence of Russians in various state institutions.

The results are very revealing:

- 86% of respondents approve of the army;
- 68,8% - ROC;
- 57% - law enforcement.

Media work is generally favored by 54,4%.

It's funny and funny, but the police have a better reputation than the journalists.

And who causes us displeasure?

In the first place, of course, the opposition - 41,6%. On the second - the judicial system (36,4%).

Is that normal? That's how! This is a slice of Russian society today. Everyone can decide for themselves whether he is a normal citizen or so, the hidden enemy of the Kremlin. A man from another world. With opposite orientation.

But there are other interesting data VTsIOM. You are obliged to approve the activities of the State Duma, and you ... approve it! At the very least, such approval is growing by leaps and bounds. From 31,4 to 35,5%!

The data on the Federation Council are even more indicative. There, the popular "odobryams" grew up right up to 39%! True, the 8 from 10 of those with whom we spoke on this topic simply do not understand why the Federation Council is needed. And if you dig deeper, like your representative in the Federation Council or how he appeared there, the percentage of "experts" is reduced to mathematical error.

To the plinth.

Russians are especially good at the activities of the Public Chamber. So immediately, in the morning they wake up and treat right away well. Already 42,6%.

Now tell me, do these numbers fit your mood? Or did you feel like a bad part of the people? Feel like an outcast? Or (do not bring, God, of course) the opposition?

Now one more question.

Why does power by means of such polls lie to you personally? Why does she make you feel inferior? Why are you constantly in some matters not with everyone? Why are you the wrong citizen?

Or why, with the help of surveys, certain groups of organisms are misleading power?

Polls? C'mon ... What is important here is not what is asked, but where and how.

Go to an Orthodox church and ask there whether people support the ROC. You can go to the same Public Chamber and get almost 100 percent support result. But if you conduct a survey among station bums, then find out that in Russia people have almost no personal computers.

It is clear that any survey conducted by a professional will give exactly the result that the customer needs. Just need to know where and how to conduct.

The authorities want to inspire us with an inferiority complex? To inspire us that no one condemns her actions except us? Instill us that we are inferior citizens?

But inspired! At the beginning of the article we talked about things that are illogical, but already perceived by society as the norm. As quite logical and correct.

At the end we ask the same question: why do we need to deceive us all? Why do you need to lie to the people? Why wishful thinking?

A lot of stupid. Those who do not care - even more. But then there are those who have a head not for a hairstyle or a fashionable hat, but for reflection. And these reflections are not at all in favor of the Kremlin.

People are thinking beings. It is a fact. They, people, can not only perceive information, but also draw conclusions. And the government, and indeed the leadership of the country, it seems, is not necessary. Fools are easier to manage, aren't they?

Although many of us remember the times when the authorities lied to the people, left and right telling us how good everything is with us. And how it all ended, we also remember. The collapse of the Soviet Union.

And that is why, in the previous article on this topic, we decided to repeat the survey that was conducted by VTsIOM. To see how right we are in our thinking.

The question was asked the same and exactly the same as that of VTsIOM. How do you evaluate modern power in terms of efficiency.

Total voted 897 people.

And here are the results:

Readers of the Military Review consider effective:

Department of Defense - 271 (30,21%).
MOE - 136 (15,16%).
Vladimir Putin - 125 (13,94%).
Mead - 111 (12,37%).
ROC - 63 (7,02%).
MIA - 60 (6,69%).
Ministry of Culture - 28 (3,12%).
Federation Council - 23 (2,56%).
Ministry of Education - 19 (2,12%).
Ministry of Health - 18 (2,01%).
State Duma - 18 (2,01%).
Public Chamber - 13 (1,45%).
Dmitry Medvedev - 12 (1,34%).

Sometimes it seems that we are in the second series ...

Source: https://wciom.ru/index.php?id=236&uid=9494

Comments

[Aerodrome]

"power" was Soviet, and under the feudal system there are "masters". that's all there is to say.

[Bull Terrier]

that's for sure))) The Soviet government spoke only the truth and that's it))) you made my day)

[tatra]

Compared with the enemies of Soviet power, the Soviet Communists and their supporters are examples of honesty. The enemies of the Communists, who brazenly, defiantly, lied under the Soviet regime, and especially after the capture of the USSR by them. And the basis of their ideology, and to justify their capture of the USSR, and after that is total lie and cowardice, eternal blaming on others of guilt and responsibility for what they themselves have done with their country and people.

[Bull Terrier]

you can’t talk without slogans?))) and then you are surprised that from the word Soviet turns everyone out)))

[tatra]

You do not get out in the cowardly style of the enemies of the Communists-defend yourself through an attack on others. You have ALL lies, including the fact that you falsified the history of your country for the benefit of your anti-Soviet rule to justify your capture of the USSR

[Bull Terrier]

Am I talking about a lie? just what you say is funny and that's it) just after listening to you I don’t even want to imagine that power. chatter chatter chatter))) what will it be better? that chatter will be 20 times more than now?))))

[tatra]

Some kind of meaningless set of words.

[Bull Terrier]

yes, whatever) the task of hitting you with something was not posed)

[Stas157]

Thanks to the authors for the polls. I would like to have more such polls in order to better understand the real, and not the opinion of VTsIOM, twisted by people!

As a conclusion, the relevant question follows:

. Why is power using these polls lying to you personally?

And the answer suggests itself:

. Fools are easier to control, isn't it?

[Stas157]

If VTsIOM is lying, it means he misinforms either the government or the people. What is really going on? Why is VTsIOM needed?
In the right sense, so that the authorities make the right decisions that do not contradict the will of the people.

Why does the government order VTsIOM distorted polls? The answer is simple. Our government does not need to know the opinion of people, it forms it itself. The anti-people's government does not set itself the goal of working for the people. It works for the oligarchs. And so that people voluntarily accept this state of things, they fool our heads with the help of their manipulators, which are VTsIOM and the media.

[Consultant]

Quote: Stas157

so that the authorities make the right decisions that do not contradict the will of the people

This is only possible in your dreams.

Give you free rein - you will want, like that old woman from a fairy tale. Stay, naturally, with a broken trough. In a literal and figurative sense.

Quote: Stas157

Our government does not need to know the opinion of people, it forms it itself

As, in general, any power. In the overwhelming majority of cases, the "will of the people" has no meaning for any government.

But the fact that the people should have mechanisms to influence the government - this is, just, undoubtedly. In countries with a more or less established management system (we are talking about several centuries, it is not necessary right now "about twenty years" and so on), this is more or less normal. We have not yet.

That's kakbe and that’s it.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Stas157

Thanks to the authors for the polls. I would like to have more such polls in order to better understand the real, and not the opinion of VTsIOM, twisted by people!

Different audiences - give different ratings.

According to a survey here, for example, on the eve of the election surely the sternum won.

But a larger audience gave a different result.

although, yes, "falsified" here

[Stas157]

Quote: Olgovich

Different audiences - give different ratings.

Of course. But, audience VO, this is the whole geography of Russia! And not only the military. I would rate this as a fully-fledged section of Russian society. Here there is someone FOR the existing government (whom everyone is happy with), and with those who are not.
In fairness, it should be noted that our power structures (as a backup of power) are treated more than other layers of the common people. Therefore, we can assume that there should be more sympathizers of power here.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Stas157

Of course. But, audience VO, this is the whole geography of Russia! And not only the military. I would rate this as a fully-fledged section of Russian society. Here there is someone FOR the existing government (whom everyone is happy with), and with those who are not.
In fairness, it should be noted that our power structures (as a backup of power) are treated more than other layers of the common people. Therefore, we can assume that there should be more sympathizers of power here.

Elections are the most representative interview. Another humanity has not yet been invented.

And it practically coincides with VTsIOM.

Naturally, everything is "falsified", yes

[Stas157]

Quote: Olgovich

And it practically coincides with VTsIOM.

Naturally, everything is "falsified", yes

From the indisputable facts. It was VTsIOM who distinguished himself in his time in the posts of votes for Yeltsin. (And for some reason, you are sure that official accountants can no longer deceive Putin.) And the very latest file from the government, when it itself doubted the numbers (in the calculation methods) that Rosstat provides us.
Quite often people are beguiling! But, some have eyes firmly covered. Do not see the obvious!

[Olgovich]

Quote: Stas157

From the indisputable facts. It was VTsIOM who distinguished himself in his time in the posts of votes for Yeltsin. (And for some reason, are you sure that official accountants can no longer cheat with Putin.)

EBN attributed votes CEC.
I’m sure, because there are NO facts of registration of votes for Putin.
Otherwise, many would have screamed.

Quote: Stas157

And the latest file from the government, when it itself doubted the numbers (in the calculation methods) that Rosstat provides us.
Quite often people are beguiling! But, some have eyes firmly covered. Do not see the obvious!

It's not about cardinal errors, but about particulars

[Alexander X]

Quote: Olgovich

Elections are the most representative survey. Another humanity has not yet been invented.

And it practically coincides with VTsIOM.

Naturally, everything is "falsified", yes

People express their will in elections, power shows its face through the adoption of laws.
The elections were held before the adoption of a package of "anti-human" laws. I am sure that the current rating of the leaders' popularity would be opposite to the pre-election ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: Alexander X

People express their will in elections, power shows its face through the adoption of laws.
The elections were held before the adoption of a package of "anti-human" laws. I am sure that the current rating of the leaders' popularity would be opposite to the pre-election ...

You are sure of this, someone else. AND?

[naidas]

Quote: Stas157

But, audience VO, this is the whole geography of Russia!

But, the audience of Echo of Moscow, is also the whole geography of Russia!
And the results are very different from VO.

[Vasily Yurievich]

.But, the audience of Echo of Moscow is also the whole geography of Russia!
And the results are very different from VO.

And in my opinion, our results are very similar to the results of the echo !!

[your1970]

Quote: Olgovich

According to a survey here, for example, on the eve of the elections, the sterner confidently won.

But a larger audience gave a different result.

-just Grudina knows the village-people of his style. Namely such as he robbed the village in 90-2000.
And the military Grudinin passed - they NOT they know what it is from an AO (where the number of shareholders is not limited !!!) to make a CJSC (where there are no more than 50 people by law) and how this affects the population

[your1970]

Quote: your1970

-just Grudina knows the village-people of his style. Namely such as he robbed the village in 90-2000.
But the Grudinin’s military passed - they don’t know what it is from the joint-stock company (where the number of shareholders is unlimited !!!) to make a closed joint-stock company (where there are no more than 50 people by law) and how this affects the population

-citizens minusers-just ask how many% of the shares of the company belong to Grudinin and his family. These are official figures, they are published, Grudinin confirms them ....
Until this moment, collective farmers JSC РјРѕРіР »Ryo reelect chairman of the company, but after (in ZAO) shareholders left by law no more than 49 people. Given the number of shares, Grudinin is now just the owner ..
Maybe at any moment everything belonging to him SELL it is no longer possible for Chubais or Trump to block this deal. And there will be CJSC Lenin and Chubais / Trump Collective Farm
.... and all types of "collective farmers" are banal hired workers who can be kicked out the gate at any time

Z.Y. you can mince me even in the skull, but just according to this scheme: SPK-OAO-ZAO robbed villages in 90.

[stalki]

Thanks to the authors for the polls. I would like to have more such polls in order to better understand the real, and not the opinion of VTsIOM, twisted by people!

Are you sure that all this is objective?

[Stas157]

Quote: stalki

Are you sure that all this is objective?

Are you sure of the opposite? Do you think that Staver and Skomorokhov themselves drew the ratings?)) I am not sure about the data that the VTsIOM gives us (like Rosstat!), But here everything is more plausible!

[stalki]

Are you sure of the opposite? Do you think that Staver and Skomorokhov themselves drew the ratings?)) I am not sure about the data that the VTsIOM gives us (like Rosstat!), But here everything is more plausible!

To be honest, I don’t trust anyone at all. especially to politicians and those who talk about politics. I filter everything and check everything, if there is no way to check the data, I leave the question open.

[shonsu]

The authors themselves try to control the opinions of stupid people. It's like asking you if you love mom or dad? It turns out that 55% love mom and 45% dad. If you add a brother, sister, grandmother and others, then the percentage will be even less, because someone will vote for them. The author has 13 points in the survey, the results of which show the PERCENT RATIO of one point over another. If you ask for each item separately, it turns out that 99,9% (conditionally) love mom, dad 98%, sister, brother and other 95%. And these are completely different numbers. Are there really so few people who understand this?

[zenion]

Everything is very simple. Measured in men in two villages who have more. This was done in two ways. In one village there was a survey, in another village they measured it. Where there was a survey, the average was 5 cm longer than where it was measured.

[shonsu]

The authors themselves try to control the opinions of stupid people. It's like asking you if you love mom or dad? It turns out that 55% love mom and 45% dad. If you add a brother, sister, grandmother and others, then the percentage will be even less, because someone will vote for them. The author has 13 points in the survey, the results of which show the PERCENT RATIO of one point over another. If you ask for each item separately, it turns out that 99,9% (conditionally) love mom, dad 98%, sister, brother and other 95%. And these are completely different numbers. Are there really so few people who understand this?

[Pax tecum]

Since the coup
1991-1993 in our country, the state, as a system of organization of society (actually!) with its state
institutions of power, serves the interests of the ruling class.
And, it is easy to trace, first of all, by the number, content and nature of laws adopted in defense of oneself loved ones .., over the past 25 years.

[Pax tecum]

...
At the end we ask the same question: why do we need to deceive us all? Why do you need to lie to the people? Why wishful thinking?

There are a lot of dumb people. Those who do not care - even more. But there are also those who have a head not for a hairstyle or a fashionable hat, but for thought. And these reflections are not at all in favor of the Kremlin.
...

Well you know! To trust politicians is not to respect yourself!
And, to trust state institutions of power in the service of politicians - it really needs to be as described in the article ...

[Consultant]

Quote: tatra

meaningless set of words

Inspired by:

[solzh]

Quote: Bull Terrier

what will it be better? that chatter will be 20 times more than now?))))

Yes, the chatter will be less. There will be the development of industry, economy, etc. The country will develop, and not stagnate. Under Soviet rule, the people will have material well-being, free medicine and education, and confidence in the future of their children and grandchildren.

[Bull Terrier]

What do you mean?)))) what was free? just to explain your own answer to the question-how did people working for free get wages built by women and schools? the wind blew? what was the well-being? This is when my father was sent by sending parcels on the other side of the country? or when normal furniture was not to buy? Didn't half know the words like a Japanese TV or VCR? then you give the well-being as an example? How did I stand behind the dumplings in the central grocery store for two hours in a queue of 2 kg? when ice cream cake only for wild blat could buy? and the car trough with nuts and then through the queue? we have with you in different ways this word means. I am not an animal. I want a normal and different food to eat. rest where I want. afford a good car. give his wife jewelry and expensive gifts and not carnations.

[astronom1973n]

Quote: Bull Terrier

how did I stand as a child for dumplings in a central deli for two hours in a queue of 2 kg per hand?

We had to make dumplings ourselves! We ourselves sat together and sculpted, but did not buy in the store!))))))

[Bull Terrier]

it didn’t work out) there weren’t such craftsmen in my family) my wife and I almost never cook at home now. so if suddenly time appears. )

[Dr. Aibolit 66]

That's what they did! :)
Homemade ones are millions of times tastier !!! ... :)

[Bull Terrier]

Lord ... yes I am deeply in one place who and how is looking at me. generally. I do my job well and get paid for it. as for my wife ... I was so taught not to take money from women. let him spend wherever he likes. What does it mean on the neck?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Bull Terrier

yes to me deeply to one place who and how looks at me.

Well, then do not be offended if you are kicked at the entrance to the skull in order to withdraw the funds that

Quote: Bull Terrier

I’m doing well and they pay me for it.

Quote: Bull Terrier

What does it mean on the neck?

And that also means that, for example, Irka Saltykova borrowed six kopecks from me in childhood, and still has not repaid it.

[Bull Terrier]

I now need to frighten for the thugs who rob people? something you already suffered)

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Bull Terrier

I now need to frighten for the thugs who rob people? something you already suffered)

Have you read Dostoevsky?
"Crime is a normal phenomenon in abnormal living conditions"
Well, or something like that, I can not vouch for the accuracy, but the meaning is this.

[Bull Terrier]

Remark and not a phenomenon but a reaction. Well, in my case, what should be normal for this abnormal? throw thieves out the window? After all, is that also suitable for that philosophy? The normal reaction of normal people is to change the conditions of their lives, and not to change the living conditions of other people, moreover, in normal ways accepted in a normal society.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Bull Terrier

Remark

But this is not so. This lover of Calvados was a fan of Dostoevsky, I suspect that he also stibilized this phrase.

[Bull Terrier]

perhaps. my memory stores only a handful of quotes and not their history)

[Vadim237]

These thugs among citizens - not officials, so many that all current prisons are not enough to put them in prison.

[CHSR1961]

Well done . Worthy to wear a proud European name

[_Sergei_]

For example, cars "Niva" went to more than a hundred countries of the world.

But something in the USSR did not take it.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: _Sergey_

But something in the USSR did not take it.

I was more interested in motorcycles. And they were free in our sports store. In addition to Java, I had to go to Moscow for her. And for myself, being a student, I calmly bought a "Minsk". I liked something easier, not like Java, or Voskhod, for example. And I wasn’t interested in cars, I don’t know much, although I was driving a penny at the age of twelve.

[_Sergei_]

I am from Altai. Unas for motorcycles had to go to Kazakhstan in Taldykorgan. The price there was threefold. Or in the European part of the USSR. But it was very difficult to drive 4000 km from there.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: _Sergey_

Unas for motorcycles had to go to Kazakhstan in Taldykorgan.

These are questions for your zavmagam. As far as I remember, Verkhovyna was worth 240 for us, and the Carpathians - 260, well, in increasing terms. The most expensive is IZhak, I don’t remember the price. Tula region.

[_Sergei_]

We didn’t even have anything at the bases. It only came to the end of the year for collective farmers. A car only Moskvich and then for happiness.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: _Sergey_

We didn’t even have anything at the bases. It only came to the end of the year for collective farmers. A car only Moskvich and then for happiness.

I say, your shitty zavmagi worked. At least - in the book of complaints it was necessary to write. Or in OBKHSS.

[your1970]

Quote: mordvin xnumx

Quote: _Sergey_

We didn’t even have anything at the bases. It only came to the end of the year for collective farmers. A car only Moskvich and then for happiness.

I say, your shitty zavmagi worked. At least - in the book of complaints it was necessary to write. Or in OBKHSS.

Quote: Mordvin 3

Tula region.

-That's it all-Moscow next was
And with us, scribble - don't scribble ... father waited 5 for years - there were 16 pieces in the region, and grandfather stood in line as a war invalid. And nobody was interestedwhat you want, what comes and buy.About such a trifle as color - no one paid attention

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: your1970

that’s all said, Moscow was nearby

Perhaps you are right. I didn't think about it. Although ... For example, we made the same walls "Don", my mother worked there, and other furniture too. They stood freely in the factory store. When we were given a new hut, Dad and his neighbor set about collecting. They collected one bedside table under the TV set, and fell asleep from a breakdown. The rest had to be collected by me, a poor student.

[_Sergei_]

We also made walls on the furniture. I purchased from a chief engineer one of the city-forming enterprises. He was able to buy directly from the factory, but he did not like it. His wife sold mine.

[domokl]

Quote: your1970

. father waited for the 5 car for years - 16 units came to the area,

Not a car, and Lada. Muscovites and Constipation in stores stood like pickled cucumbers

[_Sergei_]

Not a car, and Lada. Muscovites and Constipation in stores stood like pickled cucumbers

It depends on where. At our factory, by the way, the defense industry, every year they gave either Moskvich or Zaporozhets to the workshop. Lada drove either from Kazakhstan or from Kuzbass at a price. About 600 people worked in the workshop. The authorities were given a penny or 11.

[your1970]

Quote: domokl

Quote: your1970

. father waited for the 5 car for years - 16 units came to the area,

Not a car, but a Lada. Muscovites and Constipation in stores stood as salty cucumbers

- you had a very rich place on cucumbers... pah - cars !!!

I was small (years 10, year 1978-80й) - but I still creepy recall how two disabled veterans of the war over Niva fought. One (as I recall) somehow got out of line and managed to intercept the Niva that had come to the area. My grandfather and I came to be noted — grandfather, as a war invalid, also claimed Niva, he was far in line, but he had to check every month
The second waiting line, late for the division, knocked the first one and beat him with badik — on the head, on the hands / feet, to the blood. Let’s take them apart. and I was in the infantry ...

Grandfather came home and told his father - they would say a demon with her and Niva that he would come and take it. An orange 2102 came in turn ....5 years have been waiting ....

Z. By the way, cucumbers had an expiration date of 3 years and they stood all of it, because in the 3 liter jar there were a maximum of 4 pieces ... yellow ...

[naidas]

Quote: _Sergey_

We didn’t even have anything at the bases.

It was 30 or more years ago. Under the king, and this was not.
More or less, everything began to appear in the 50-60s, when they didn’t scare them with wars, they rebuilt themselves and began to equip life.
I suppose that in 30 peaceful years of Soviet power, much more has been done than modern with modern capabilities.

[Vasily Yurievich]

Yes, that is right. The Soviet government inherited a legacy after World War I and the civil one, and 1 years later even more devastation after the Great Patriotic War. And rebuilt, and flew into space, and mastered the atom .. For 20 years. And here for the same period after the fucking spotted, ebn and others like them do not come to our senses ...

[Vasily Yurievich]

Yes, that is right. The Soviet government inherited a legacy after World War I and the civil one, and 1 years later even more devastation after the Great Patriotic War. And rebuilt, and flew into space, and mastered the atom .. For 20 years. And here for the same period after the fucking spotted, ebn and others like them do not come to our senses ...

[Vasily Yurievich]

Yes, that is right. The Soviet government inherited a legacy after World War I and the civil one, and 1 years later even more devastation after the Great Patriotic War. And rebuilt, and flew into space, and mastered the atom .. For 20 years. And here for the same period after the fucking spotted, ebn and others like them do not come to our senses ...

[Skarpzd]

Kemer region Mariinsk city. 1985-86 year. OPC base of the forest plant. free ZAZ 968M and AZLK-2140. for the workers of the timber mill (and I was working in the recreation center of the timber mill at that time) there was an opportunity to buy by installments, which was done (more precisely, my father bought a Muscovite 2140 car, since I didn’t have that much money). but the vaz is already in order of priority. and cornfields too.

[_Sergei_]

You are not talking about Kuzbass. We always went there for cars. And in 1985, and 86 cars were full everywhere. The new vaz2106 in Kuzbass cost 9100, we bought a used three-year-old for 13000-14000.

[domokl]

Everything was. Java 1100 Rs and Chezet Sport is the same ... Plus 200 on top ...

[Skarpzd]

Well, the top and the Carpathians are not motorcycles. mopeds. Izh planet without a stroller that something was about 700 rubles if the memory serves.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Skarpzd

Well, the top and the Carpathians are not motorcycles. mopeds.

This is when I was a schoolboy, dreamed of buying. As a result, he was lucky, he was driving a drunk man on Verkhovyna in the forest, he fell, he could not lift the moped, spat on it, and went on foot. And we picked up. They rode it for a couple of months, then sold it.

Quote: Skarpzd

but I have more scooters

Well, the Tula clunkers we stood freely. The keys to him were funny, with a bunny. To Tula from us all that 60 km.

[Skarpzd]

yes .. you're right ... the top is a small Java)), but the quality of Riga was 16 better. and what is Tula clunkers? reliable engines, forced cooling. the suspension is the softest. shake on any motorcycle along the gravel road and then drive the same way on a scooter. heaven and earth.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Skarpzd

something Tula clunkers

I am not saying that they are bad. It’s just that we went half the city to them, they stood in each yard, so they were taken for granted. Well, I just didn’t really like scooters. A matter of taste. I loved to shake.

[Skarpzd]

triple? in soviet time? What is it like?

[_Sergei_]

If you take illegally from the base or a new one from the local

[Skarpzd]

Well this is a completely different conversation.

[domokl]

Yeah .. By Cherdyntsev to a forestry from Kommunalnaya on Verkhovyna-3 ... At the brewery ... And there is a hot beer. from the conveyor ... Moped never in the USSR was considered a motorcycle. As well as. The motorcycle started with Sunrise. A bug with a cradle is everywhere. Ural already from the farm. And M-106 is boyish mischief

[Skarpzd]

well, let's say the URALS and DNEPR were not free. in turn. and so yes. I agree. but I liked scooters more. possessed a "tourist". cool apparatus was. reliable. yes plus an electric starter. only I didn't want to ride in the mud)))

[solzh]

You only have Me, I, I. And, I apologize, you have a consumer attitude to life, just like in the West. Have you tried to think about people?
Who prevented you from resting in Soviet times? Soviet resorts were not enough for you?
What are 2 kg of dumplings in one hand? My mother did not send me for dumplings, she herself made homemade dumplings, and meat was taken at the central market. Have buckwheat sent to other regions? The first time I hear this, you’re funny, however.
We are about the same age as you, but we have different views on everything. You didn’t have enough imports, but now do you have enough imports? Are you satisfied that the West invaded Russia with our imports, and we have almost no production of our own? Are you calling it well-being? Sorry, but this is not prosperity; saturation of the market with imports is the country's economic dependence. Something like this...

[Bull Terrier]

and what am I supposed to think about?))) about you? about neighbors?) am I funny? specifically to Belarus. father was given rations in briquettes for rations. sculpt for God's sake what am I against? You can still grow flax and sew clothes at home. production? Well, learn how to make cars better than the Japanese or Germans, I only for although I do not believe in this.

[Gardamir]

You can still grow flax and sew clothes at home. production? Well, learn how to make cars better than the Japanese or Germans, I only for although I do not believe in this.

But you hate our homeland. And be proud of it! You even hate now. So the Communists have nothing to do with it.

[Bull Terrier]

about how))) this is why such conclusions? that I can’t stand bad cars? and it’s necessary to transfer to a patriot from Kruzak?) I'm afraid you’re overdoing it now, since in the Far East fans of our automobile industry are about the same as the number of votes the representative of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation got in the elections and I think I’m overdoing it very much)

[grandson of Perun]

Quote: Bull Terrier

about the same number of fans of our automobile industry

And what do they like there? German (or any European) car industry or just Japanese and Korean? The thought never occurred to me - why?

I explain the obvious:
1. For many years, all media outlets carried out intensified and abundantly funded bullying of our automobile industry. As a result, many still as parrots thoughtlessly repeat the false stereotypes of that information war.
2. The war was not only informational, but also economic. The main weapon is dumping. Bulk imported discounted used cars in good condition. The delivery of our car industry from the European part of the country added a considerable increase to the cost, which reduced competitiveness.
3. As a result, our auto industry can in no way affect the residents of the Far East. And not only ours. Any car factory built by Europeans in Vladivostok will go bankrupt in an unequal struggle with the established business of importing used Asian to us.

PS: why the hell is Kruzak? ChSV in a normal passenger car does not fit?

[Bull Terrier]

what nonsense)))) get in the first car in a Honda in which everything from the machine to the leather interior. or get into some sort of 08))) our car industry lost for one reason - people felt the difference in a soft spot.))) I even if it wouldn’t be cheaper after Vista, in some sort of ... these Japanese women will live longer than any new VAZ rattle. buying a car is a pleasure. that where it does not fit me no matter. I like the car itself. with my growth choose cars masochism

[grandson of Perun]

Stupidity is a thoughtless parrot repetition of the false stereotypes of the information war like "an old foreign car is better than a new our car".
It's nonsense to compare cars of different price categories. Of the more expensive goods, great opportunities are naturally expected. And how many times Honda the same year of release more expensive than any VAZ cars?
Nonsense to deny the obvious.
Or do you not deny that an information war has been waged for many years?
Or do you not deny dumping second-hand imports?

PS: 08 has long been discontinued. Judging a modern automobile industry by the Samara family is also stupid

PPS: Automata on domestic cars have been installed for a long time. Another question: why should a budget car show off like a leather interior?

[Bull Terrier]

I compare that time and those cars. Well, compare the new UAZ and 8 year old Kruzak. now. the lousy crown of that time in '85, automatic windows, full-time music is excellent. a body that does not rust. nice lounge. climate system. why did AvtoVAZ put cars in '85? fan dust around the cabin to drive? maybe a condo?

[grandson of Perun]

1. How many times Kruzak more expensive than the Patriot? Why the goods, whose price varies at timesshould have the same consumer qualities?
2. Do not la la. In the year 85 mass budget models were not set machines and air conditioners. And how many times is the Korolka more expensive than any VAZ car (see p. 1)?
3. So what's up with the information war and dumping, huh?

PS: I also know how to play your games with fraud. Back in 1971, we had a ZIL-117 passenger car, to which your Korolka not only in 1985, but also in 2018 as on foot to the Moon

[Bull Terrier]

https://habarovsk.drom.ru/toyota/camry/30994943.html первая попавшаяся на дроме тех лет. чего там нет?))))

[grandson of Perun]

There is no B-class budget model there.
I repeat for the third time: It’s stupid to compare products whose price varies at times.
Lada 1984 worth 2-3 times cheaper Toy Camry 1984.

[Bull Terrier]

Yes, at least 5 times cheaper) is still not needed. by the way the Corolla class there are enough cars. See Karina Sprinters.

[grandson of Perun]

Quote: Bull Terrier

yes at least 5 times cheaper

I do not want to waste time on a clearly inadequate person for whom a plastic pen for 20 rubles should be as glamorous and durable as a parker.

[Bull Terrier]

for God's sake) I also don’t really want to prove that Japanese cars and ours are like two different planets. and the price category of cars is formed in the domestic market. that cars of the same class should at least compete with each other. and conspiracies are you to leave for books. me living here. who grew up on Japanese cars to push about something like this is something with something)

[your1970]

Quote: Perun's grandson

I repeat for the third time: it’s stupid to compare products whose price differs significantly.
Lada 1984 of the year costs 2-3 times cheaper than the Camry 1984 of the year.

- be careful here
the dollar was then 0,86 cop therefore talk about VERY a big difference in the costs of these machines is impossible - maximum 30% difference ...

[Skarpzd]

is Camry a budget car ????

[Bull Terrier]

Well, in those years, an ordinary car. then with modern more Windows for example you can compare. and so the king and her clones are supposedly the sprinter of the crown of the tersel and much more. models were molded on one chassis like pies in my opinion)

[Bull Terrier]

again. there was no dumping or war. it just didn't make sense. buy yourself a car and compare. all. Do you want a diesel engine? You want gasoline of various displacement. you want a box you want an automatic transmission .. all the colors of the rainbow. why some kind of war when, in contrast to these machines, the choice of AZLK 08 09 VAZ and actually everything))))

[grandson of Perun]

Quote: Bull Terrier

there was no dumping or wars

They would immediately say that from parallel reality, and I would not waste my time proving the obvious.

[Bull Terrier]

Yes, whatever) want to find an excuse for the wretchedness of our cars? that they managed to lose your will. I didn’t go, I don’t go or go)

[Bull Terrier]

Well. how many years later?) what’s the next on the list?) what will appear in 15 years when everyone has already had an option for a long time?) this conversation doesn’t make sense at all) one good-looked at the site they looked like cars) it finally came to that the appearance should be pleasant) for me the presence of a machine in them is like having hot water in the house is not an argument. this should be the default.

[Vadim237]

Our machines, the company KTE began to produce for "Kartezh" - 9 step forward - one back.

[Skarpzd]

nor when I will not take a car with a leather interior. not mine. We do not produce our own machines. we put antediluvian import. domestic robots .... yes, however, like imported ones - let this bowl pass you))))

[grandson of Perun]

Quote: Skarpzd

we do not produce our own machines

The overwhelming majority of cars of the entire world automobile industry have "not their own" machines. Only a few specialized firms from Germany, Japan and the USA produce automatic transmissions for cars all over the world. Too complicated and expensive to manufacture them.

PS: Now we do not produce rotary piston engines for passenger cars either. "Reformers" ruined production, like many other unique industries. Now only Mazda mass-produces RPD.

[Vadim237]

Mazda on the RX 5 is a Wankel rotary engine, no longer puts and does not, the resource is too small and the engine itself is not repairable - in general.

[Bull Terrier]

RX 7 in my opinion) something like the 5th model doesn’t even come to my mind)

[Vadim237]

Wrong - RX 8.

[Bull Terrier]

it itself would have gone bankrupt. ) The meaning of the production of the fact that they will not buy and have nowhere to put)

[grandson of Perun]

Quote: Bull Terrier

it itself would have gone broke

However, it did not go bankrupt until they began to "reform" with a predictable result.

Quote: Bull Terrier

that they don’t buy and have nowhere to put

Again with a finger to the sky. Already where to put a powerful, but at the same time compact engine, the choice is huge.

PS: In your opinion, our aviation industry would have gone bankrupt as well, because the Russians cannot do anything?

[Bull Terrier]

the leather interior in modern cars is not a leather-wrapped frame) it’s already a product with ventilation, a perforated pleasant coating) all the old fears, like in summer, will warm up in winter in oak long ago)

[New Year day]

Quote: Bull Terrier

or sit in some sort of 08

no need to offend "08-09". I have a car for 20 years and I drive it. and how she helped in life! They offered to hand over to trade-in - well, I can't sell a family member

[Bull Terrier]

Yes, I do not offend) you are related to her) I probably would not have sold it after so many years)

[Skarpzd]

Yes. probably would not have sold. To sell my 20-year-old eight ... I somehow got rid of a more recent patriot. he was very "dear" to me

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Bull Terrier

get into the first car in a Honda in which everything from the machine to the leather interior. or sit in some sort of 08))

You can't even imagine what stupidity you have just written. The eight were created by Porsche engineers, even the door handles are the same. Compare Honda with the eight yourself. And the Japanese auto industry completely ripped off our "Niva", about which they sent a certificate of honor to the chief engineer of VAZ,

In the 1986 year, the Japanese presented the head of the 2121 project Petr Prusov with a Suzuki Vitara brochure with the inscription “The godfather of this car.”

So that. Enlighten yourself. The USSR paid Porsche engineers half a billion marks like. The British police ordered Niva to buy, and to you - zapadlo?

[Bull Terrier]

I just happened to see Vitara) in all possible bodies. or in Japan Escudo. even if something was borrowed from her that it was not an achievement at all (that’s the usual practice) tell me, besides the 4-door version of what was new there over the years with her?) The Japanese changed my 3 bodies from her. not counting options Tipo Solomon (factory tuning)

[Mordvin 3]

Something you about the eight modestly shut up. About the Niva. It was created for rural residents on the instructions of Kosygin. British police bought Niva year in 89, if not mistaken. And about the change of body - put forward these claims to the current defective managers. In the late USSR, this was not necessary; it satisfied everyone. Argue further, just remember, I have been a car mechanic for more than a quarter of a century, and I know more about the auto industry. For example, are you aware that the USSR built the first Chinese automobile plant? In 53.

[Bull Terrier]

So what? I, as a machine operator, can’t have my opinion?) and don’t know about Chinese plants?) You don’t know what the KRI manager’s assessment is), but I don’t tell you about that)

[begemot20091]

These are the estimates that led the managers to their own grades, and when they arrived at the production they couldn’t distinguish the screw from the bolt. Recently, one such effective one before my eyes tried to force the turner to sharpen the part according to the design drawing .... Red graduate student. Perplexed him: suggested writing TP on an aluminum rivet .... And where did his KPI go. The level of knowledge from E Piekha to go on ... And claims to s / n ... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh hoo.

[Bull Terrier]

there are always enough of them. An analysis of its effectiveness was not carried out and here the questions for the HR department are necessary because the effectiveness of employees must be checked correctly. To achieve certain goals, a person without knowledge is not needed. and here are two ways to learn or to the street.

[Bull Terrier]

This is not a story: the specialists at the Porsche engineering department at one time really worked on fine-tuning handling and stability, and also gave recommendations on the body, suspension and engine.

The most characteristic example is a kind of "hump" on the roof, which loads the rear axle for better handling at high speeds. The “kinship” of the VAZ-2108 with Porsche cars (primarily with the 924 model) is also noticeable in some small details - for example, external door handles and levers for folding the backs of the front seats. you seriously after that something good about our auto industry want to say?))))) that you yourself could not stupidly? dubious argument. rather the opposite)

[grandson of Perun]

Quote: Bull Terrier

that they themselves could not stupidly

Don't talk nonsense.
Nissan is selling the Datsun miDo, a lightly tiled VAZ grant. What themselves could not stupidly?
General Motors sells the former Niva 2123. What themselves could not stupidly?
And what about what it looks like - discuss with amateurs, for whom design is more important than what's inside.

[Bull Terrier]

I again do not understand you, what do you want to prove to me? ) I wrote my opinion. I’m not going to change it. I’ll keep silent about the rest. the fact that they have invested money and in fact own half of the Niva is not a reason to sell it?) were led to zero-year sales and developed. The usual thing. they will sell right away that the joint venture as soon as they lose profit) this is a business) Nissan is almost half owned by Renault, like AvtoVAZ.) they can drag it to other markets under other brands of the concept) why do it from scratch? so it works in this world) in the states of Chevrolet in Korea, in my Daewoo, it drives the same under different brands.

[grandson of Perun]

Have you started to ask questions? Can you answer at least one question I asked first?

I also can’t understand. A normal person would buy a Japanese car and ride for his own pleasure.
And here you are right for the language, someone is pulling undeservedly outstripping domestic cars.
What motive? Is a dealer of a foreign automaker or something like a competitor's black PR?

[Bull Terrier]

I didn’t start it. you want to prove something to me. although I immediately said my opinion.

[goose]

Quote: Bull Terrier

I again do not understand you, what do you want to prove to me?

Justice he wants
1. The Japanese auto industry has grown in the US market, which is infinitely large in capacity, and in complete scientific and technical superiority over its neighboring colonies in Europe, where the first not-so-advanced Japanese products were sold. Then the Japanese grew up in German and American developments, and only in the mid-70s began to do their own thing. The first that the Japanese rebuilt was a cluster of enterprises manufacturing components making up 85% of the final cost of the machines. Koreans grew as a branch of Japanese business with American money. The Chinese auto industry has grown as a cluster of the same parts for Japan, and only 8 years later the first plant appeared, on a ready-made basis.
2. The USSR did not have money sales markets - most of the economies that were in the sphere of interests of the USSR only by the beginning of the 80s began to show signs of a mature economy (excluding the GDR and Czechoslovakia).
3. Poverty frames. In conditions of acute shortage of intellectual demography, the best cadres went to the KGB, GRU, science, and the military commissar. Leftovers went into ordinary industry. And if with the engineering corps it was more or less, then the economists and directors did not always have enough gunpowder. As a result, problems arose from a purely organizational plan. I agree, quite ridiculous at times.
4. Personal vehicles were credited to luxury goods if there was a developed (in the European part) public transport, which affected priorities, quantity and prices.
5. The weakness of the chemical industry and road networks could not provide personal vehicles with everything necessary in the field of capital investments (priorities!).

[Alber]

Quote: Bull Terrier

how))) what’s the reason for such conclusions? that I can’t stand bad cars? and it is necessary to transfer to a patriot from Kruzak?)

Would you go to your israel! There Kruzak piled and the Dead Sea ... With mud

[Bull Terrier]

where did he go?)))) Israel then what?))))

[naidas]

Well, you answered like in a fable Two friends:
.... We know there are more families
Where our screaming and scolding,
Where they look with emotion
On foreign stickers ...
But fat ... eat Russian!

[Ajevgenij]

Hmm, if a cool car and tsatskis are important for a wife, then ... Hatred towards the USSR is not surprising.

[Bull Terrier]

stupid thing. I do not hate the country at that time. this is my childhood and it was great. but I as a normal person do not want a return to the past. I still grew up and want more. it’s normal, it’s stupid not to want to live well. at different times different desires. I am annoyed by the almost manic desire to return a whole country in which a new generation has grown up into something that is not there. into the system that collapsed. while . sentiment is good. but at the level of memories.

[Horon]

You can still grow flax and sew clothes at home. production? Well, learn how to make cars better than the Japanese or Germans, I only for although I do not believe in this.

A strange admission you have in your own curvature! Have you tried to find advantages in all periods of your life? It is also impossible to consider the present time, the time of perfection and prosperity! We are now paying for imported "beads" with natural resources, and when they run out, judging by you, we will not be able to offer the world any more. These "beads" will very quickly turn into a noose on our neck or the neck of our descendants! With an approach like yours, one must either hope to leave this country, or live by the principle: "after us, even a flood!"
I don’t like it when the USSR is too idealized, but in this case you gave, as they say - "rooster"!

[Bull Terrier]

even so? in his? I just make a choice. in favor of the best in quality and comfort. Here and now.

[Horon]

Quote: Bull Terrier

even so? in his? I am total
I’m making a choice. in favor of the best in quality and comfort. Here and now.

So you are a temporary worker? Great ...! God forbid from the temporary workers in any business, even in business, even in power, even in the neighborhood! One trouble from them, regardless of the place of stay, system and ideas with which they hide behind!

[Bull Terrier]

you have ideas) I just have life)

[Horon]

A worm also has a life! Apparently, you can only inherit instincts from your offspring! You cannot leave them not ideas, not culture, not understanding your place in life. Although no, you still leave them your debts!

[Bull Terrier]

I have no debts. ) corporate mortgage and that almost repaid. culture and ideas of some kind do not concern you here at all, like how I raise children. they will achieve their place in life. you are so indiscriminately for the sake of any thoughts you draw conclusions on the basis that I prefer a normal life to yours (not mine), which is even strange.

[Horon]

Not all debts are on the surface! And how are you going to live in a country in which there will be nothing to sell when the source of raw materials for income runs out, you are unlikely to answer, because you yourself are pursuing the ideology of curvature of others. You yourself, judging by everything that has been said by you above, cannot do anything, you are only one of a series of hands that drive but who see little of the whole variety of reality.

[Bull Terrier]

blah blah blah. and tomorrow a meteorite will fall on his head. or aliens will attack. you need to think about it)

[Horon]

Thinking never bothers! The Communists, too, believed that they had a life style for centuries, and now you will not find them in the afternoon with fire.

[Bull Terrier]

there are a lot of them)

[Horon]

I doubt it! They are rather people with a romantic outlook on the past, otherwise they would have seen that there are no real communists now close to power. There is a Zyuganov trough and a "carrot" for sympathizers.

[CHSR1961]

Bull terrier YOU have not yet departed from the New Year's binge. But if YOU are not an alcoholic and this is YOUR true opinion, then YOU are not a RUSSIAN person, but in your worldview an American or a European. YOU, my friend’s west, must ... leave.

[Halado Romane]

Have you been happy with the Soviet deficit? Or was he not there either? It's amazing how people love to tell tales! And not everyone in the USSR, not everyone had the opportunity to eat from the market. It was a little expensive meat ... in 80 years, his father kept pigs. So everything went on sale. We mainly ate cereals. Dumplings were this treat! Less often, mother's cutlets. You still tell how you came to the store and bought the choice you wanted!

[Claymore]

Quote: Halado romane

Have you been happy with the Soviet deficit? Or was he not there either?

Posh questions ...

If the absence of sausages at 2.50 in state-owned shops and the same sausage at cooperative stores and at 5.00 at the market is a deficit, this means that at present this deficit has not only persisted, but also increased tenfold.

It was a little expensive meat ... in 80 years, his father kept pigs. So everything went on sale. We mainly ate cereals. Dumplings were this treat!

Grow meat, sell it and at the same time eat cereals ...

Is this some kind of mental deviation inherited?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Claymore

Is this some kind of mental deviation inherited?

Duc Gypsy he is. My paternal grandfather kept pigs, my maternal grandfather kept goats, that's how they always had meat. One day the guys brought a goat stew for a snack, so they ate it in no time, and when they found out, they were surprised. "Yes? And Cho, delicious! Bring some more!"

[Claymore]

Quote: Mordvin 3

Duc gypsy he

Then everything fell into place - they ate porridge because all the proceeds from the sale of pork went to buy gold trinkets and guitars in order to cause a shortage in these market segments (such subversive activity)

[Horon]

This is reality! If you saw another life, you are lucky, most of them lived like that. Living in the countryside and buying groceries, this also happened. The state farm could allocate 6-8 acres or 4 and settle in an apartment building. But after all, many do not want to remember this, I want to remember only the good, because then we were young and our life was still ahead! Perhaps from this it seems that everything was better then.

[Claymore]

What is reality - scarcity is reality?

You did not try to look at the markets and co-trading stores?

[Horon]

Have you looked at shops in the villages? They all belonged to co-trade! And they worked from 9-00 to 17-00, while in the village the working day starts at 6-00, 7-00 and ends at 18-00, 22-00. The lunch of the shops coincided with the lunch time in the village! And one more stroke of that time - the seller of the store was the second most important after the chairman of the collective farm or the director of the state farm! Salaries were small and to keep the farm, there was total theft. If a person could not or did not want to steal, he lived either starving or went to the city (limit) in search of a better life. If you don’t know these subtleties, you were either too young or you didn’t want to remember it, the reason for such selectivity of memory was said by me above. And yes, scarcity was the norm in those days!

[Claymore]

1.
No tales about the monopoly of cooperatives in the village and a twelve-hour workday.


2.
A commodity deficit is a situation in which the offer does not cover solvent demand, and the inconvenience associated with the lack of outlets and their working hours have nothing to do with the commodity deficit.


3.
The seller of the store second only could be in the not very healthy fantasies of individual citizens.
And trade workers who violated the law made up one of the largest categories of convicted prisoners.


4.
No need for fairy tales about small salaries - the purchasing power of one hundred rubles in the first half of the 80s corresponds to the purchasing power of 43000 modern rubles.

At the same time, the minimum wage in the USSR at that time was 70 rubles (= 30000 in terms of modern money), the average salary in the USSR was 200 rubles (= 86000), the average salary on a collective farm was 150 rubles (= 64000), and the average salary on a state farm was 180 rubles (= 77000) + in the part of holding farms of agricultural enterprises helped their employees with feed, and building materials, and transport.

Therefore, only outright parasites lived half-starving, and ordinary thieves who considered it possible to live at the expense of others stole.

[Horon]

1.
No tales about the monopoly of cooperatives in the village and a twelve-hour workday.

It is clear about the village in those days, you have an idea at the level born in the 80s.

2.
A commodity deficit is a situation in which the offer does not cover solvent demand, and the inconvenience associated with the lack of outlets and their working hours have nothing to do with the commodity deficit.

I call a deficit the absence of goods in the store at all, or in sufficient quantity to meet demand! How old were you in a year, say, 75-79? Or were you not yet in the plan at that time? Or maybe you are a city dweller? Then, in general, you can consider your knowledge at the "0" level.

3.
The seller of the store second only could be in the not very healthy fantasies of individual citizens.
And trade workers who violated the law made up one of the largest categories of convicted prisoners.

Here I see that you didn’t even find the days of developed socialism, for this can be stated by a person TOTALLY unfamiliar with the situation in those days, and even more so in the village.

4.
No need for fairy tales about small salaries - the purchasing power of one hundred rubles in the first half of the 80s corresponds to the purchasing power of 43000 modern rubles.

Yes, you yourself are the storyteller! An electrician on a state farm received no more than 80 rubles, a worker in the greenhouse of this state farm received less than 70, and there were still bonuses, but ...! Particularly touching is the indiscriminate comparison of salaries and prices! You in those days did not even know about a PC or European repair! To buy a walk-behind tractor, trimer or electric drill on free sale was from the field of anti-science fiction! And about the modern variety of products then it was possible to speak only in a whisper with those who were on a tour in the capital countries. You can compare the prices of those and these only for the same goods, don't even try to compare salaries! "It's like comparing round with soft!

Moreover, the minimum wage in the USSR at that time was 70 rubles (= 30000 in terms of modern money), the average salary in the USSR was 200 rubles (= 86000), the average salary on the collective farm was 150 rubles (= 64000), and the average salary at the state farm was 180 rubles (= 77000) + in terms of the management of subsidiary farms, agricultural enterprises helped their employees with feed, construction materials, and transport.

That you generally wrote something from the field of parallel reality! Never when write this to people who lived in those days. I wrote you REAL salaries at the state farm, and I received 180-200 rubles while living and working in the city and this was considered a good salary, though I had to work in two shifts and leave on weekends. Now the average salary according to statistics is also much more than 20 thousand, but the trouble is that most of the population, even 20 thousand, is considered good. By the way, here you are about the lies of power from the article! Judging by your statistics on salaries of that time and the present, the government has lied and is lying!

Therefore, from starvation lived only frank parasites, stolen ordinary thieves who consider it possible to live at the expense of others.

Then almost everyone stole - just take it as a fact, it was a way of existence, because you could not buy everything in stores, especially what was required for the household (wires, bricks, boards, power tools, etc.) they said, then look at your parents' dacha and try to find out how many of its components were bought in the store, and not "borrowed" at work or bought from friends who "took" it at work at home. In those days, there were two types of philosophy justifying theft: 1) they pay me little and therefore I compensate in this way, and 2) the state means the general, and then I do not steal, but take what is mine! But you naturally did not steal and your parents did not steal, therefore, receiving, at best, 100 rubles and spending 60-80 rubles of them a month, they bought not only clothes for themselves, did repairs in the apartment / house, paid constant contributions to various social movements , you / your parents naturally managed to collect money for vacations, children's camps for children, and bought a car "Zhiguli" collecting money for 5 years! It was up to 5 years that the waiting line for new "Zhiguli"
You also remembered well about the parasites! How many "parasites" are now earning less than the average!
PS It would be better if you did not touch on this topic, then I would not have remembered the reasons why those communists had to be removed from power. Although I like to remember good times better!

[Claymore]

Quote: Horon

about the village in those days, you have an idea at the level born in the 80s

My dear, when you close your eyes, not everyone becomes dark - you are not the only one familiar with rural reality.

And if some thieves in YOUR village used the term "parasite", then claims should be made not to the terminology, but to the villagers who put up with thieves and rampant theft.

I call a deficit the lack of goods in the store at all, or in sufficient quantities, to ensure demand!

1.
You can call a deficit the absence of goods in a particular store, you can call black white, you can call homosexuality a natural sexual orientation - your subjectivity will not be able to influence anything in any case, and the deficit will remain a situation in which supply does not cover solvent demand on a scale state or region.

And 2nd.
If, nevertheless, we begin to consider the deficit "the absence of goods in the store at all, or in sufficient quantity to meet demand", then it turns out that since the disappearance of the USSR, the commodity deficit not only did not disappear, but also increased tenfold + a deficit in solvency was added to it population.

Here I see that you did not even find the days of developed socialism

I did not see the times of "developed socialism" for the simple reason that developed socialism is called communism and is characterized by the absence of commodity-money relations and the distribution of goods "according to needs."

An electrician on a state farm received no more than 80 rubles

Yeah - working part-time.

the worker in the greenhouse of this state farm received less than 70

Where did you find the state farm in which, starting from the year 73, it was possible to receive a salary of less than 70 rubles at full employment?

Compare the prices of those and these can only be for identical products

From and compare the assortment of consumer baskets after making mandatory payments (total communal utilities + transport), adjusted for quality.

That you generally wrote something from the field of parallel reality!

Are there arguments other than "I don't like this" statements?

Now the average salary according to statistics is also much more than 20 thousand, but the trouble is that most of the population, even 20 thousand, is considered good

The trouble is that some individuals undertake to talk about an object that they do not know.

The average salary is obtained by dividing the entire wage fund by the number of employees - at present it is 42 thousand, and in the 1st half of the 80s it was 200 rubles.

The median salary is the sum dividing all accrued salaries into two equal shares (50% of employees receive more, the other 50% less) - currently the median salary is 27 thousand, and in the first half of the 80s it was 180 rubles .

Then they stole almost everything

I already understood who I am texting with.

you naturally didn’t steal and your parents didn’t steal

I was born in the mid-70s, and among my closest relatives there was only one "bad-temper" - and he dragged not because he needed, but because he had the opportunity.

In general, it is not necessary to talk about small salaries - 315 billion rubles (an average of one thousand for every citizen of the USSR, including minors), burned up in the accounts in the 91st year, completely refute your fantasies about this.

[Horon]

You simply deny reality to the point of fanaticism, or you do not recognize it from fanaticism! You are trying to tell me HOW it was then in reality, arguing this with a special case ?! I will disappoint at that time the song "My address is the Soviet Union" as it is impossible by the way to characterize my movements in the European part of the USSR and EVERYWHERE I saw the same thing with a difference only in local variations, therefore, "my dear", stop hanging noodles to others and telling things which you only know from words! What you wrote above is nothing more than demagoguery, and for people who really know the Soviet era, this is just a fairy tale or propaganda that has no real basis!

[Claymore]

1 I deny your subjective reality.

2 It is your "arguments" that are reduced to a particular case and subjectivism, which do not fight either with statistics, or with my experience, or with the experience of other eyewitnesses of that period.

Accordingly, no matter how much you change the concept, no matter how much you lie, the term "deficit" will not change its meaning from this, and the amount of personal deposits of the population, amounting to 315.3 billion rubles as of 20.06.1991, will not disappear anywhere.

[Skarpzd]

not every. correctly. father locksmith railway. Mom light worker. way from the seamstress to the head cutter. your house with a garden. periodically kept it curie. then pigs (no more than two pieces). then the rabbits tried. not for sale. for yourself. ate .... yes they ate normally. cabbage soup and porridge is our food. and in the store ... we bought what we needed! and now what is needed. and when what you need coincides with what you wanted - well, a holiday.

[aybolyt678]

Quote: Halado romane

We mainly ate cereals. Dumplings were this treat!

you had exclusively proper nutrition. Healthy food!

[aybolyt678]

Quote: Halado romane

Have you been happy with the Soviet deficit?

the question is which is better - the Soviet shortage of variety of goods (not in all periods) or the current shortage of work, money and prospects?

[Vasily Yurievich]

Why are you dreaming of beads in front of him ?? He made it clear that putting him on everyone and thinking about others was not his leisure .. Well, if only about a variety of food and jewelry for his wife ...

[Bull Terrier]

you interpret my words for the sake of your beliefs. but yes. you're right. I want to think about my family and not about you. and live and work for them. all the benefits that are available to me are for my children. their future. is that something bad?

[Skarpzd]

By the way (or not by the way), our buckwheat was also deficient for some reason. but I liked it, there was one in square briquettes. very respected. and then drafted into the army. still do not eat buckwheat)))

[Sergey TT]

You are probably no older than 85 Gorbachevsky collapse?

[Bull Terrier]

a little older) I found a lot of things. although at that age that my objectivity I think is not quite correct ..

[Ros 56]

You swim fine, dear, whoever wanted, they earned enough to give jewelry to his wife. A ring with a ruby ​​cost from 90 rubles and more. And to visit relatives, anyone could go to any part of the country, go today. And I did not stand for dumplings, they were freely sold here at 1,40 per kg. But we sculpted our own. And "Orsk" produced their refrigerators for 30 or more years, they worked with TVs and cars, then yes, we lagged behind to some extent, although Pobeda, Volga -21 and Moskvich-412 had gold medals at international exhibitions and oddly enough were in demand in Germany and France. As everywhere there were pluses and minuses, but in general for tomorrow they were calm and in the evenings there were a lot of people on the streets, they were not afraid of anyone and there was no such nonsense that the cops were sitting in their offices behind bars with a signaling device. And there weren't so many idiots, the murder was an emergency for the whole district.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Ros 56

here with televisions and cars, yes, we were lagging behind to some extent,

Yes, there was no remote control, I poked at the Horizon buttons while switching. And he showed it normally. Well, he also played toys on it, connecting Spectrum.

[Skarpzd]

That is appropriate to compare the generation of TV devices. say Yapu DU appeared not much earlier than ours. it was possible to repair Sonya of the year so 84 if the memory serves, so he still had the type of our PTC.

[Bull Terrier]

I'm afraid you are tearing my words out of context. I do not say it was not. I say bad and little. Here the simplest question is, if there is a choice between BMW and 412, who will choose what?) At home, you can put a Doshirak box and you will not be hungry, but you can eat tasty and healthy. it's all about the accessibility of which there was no choice. my father from abroad brought a vidic with Sharp's telly in my opinion. the name has long been weathered. and which one could you buy? BM 12. the size of a suitcase.) And so on. a choice. He was absent. or take what they give or free.

[Ros 56]

Why the heck is it needed, this video player who uses them now, well, I have a recording player, I forgot when it was turned on. They shot down the hunt, as the children rejoiced in the new toy in the box. And I don’t need beha for hell, I have UAZ for my eyes, where to go with our pension and with gas prices. But with the advice it was very democratic to refuel 20 kopecks each.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Bull Terrier

and so on in everything. a choice. He was absent. or take what they give

Again, a brechet. For example, I had three tape recorders in the USSR: Electronics, Sirius, and Lighthouse. There was no choice? Heh, I’ll tell you a dozen more I’ll call from which I chose. How many brands of watches were there? Cameras? Starting from the Change for 15 rubles? Radio receivers, starting with the penny Youth, which I myself had to solder, which I did with pleasure in my 8 years. No, you clung to the video recorder in the example. Telvisor? It was full of models, from Rubin to Altai. And very good show. There is something to compare, I had Rubin, Horizon, Youth at home in the USSR. All this stood freely in stores, and brands changed constantly. Dad bought me Electronics, then Sirius bought himself, then he saw the Lighthouse from a classmate, he also wanted one. I bought it calmly, earning at the state farm. And here you give an example of a video player. Our TV sets were inferior to imported ones only in the absence of a remote control, and with a smaller number of channels. Ask Michman, he was responsible for the production of color televisions in the Union. Probably tormented to list the names. Like radios. Altair of the fourth class was presented to one Spaniard, so he could not believe that such things were produced in the USSR. I wonder what he would say if he fit a top-class receiver? And you drive the blizzard here about the lack of choice. Have you learned from Peskov?

[Bull Terrier]

what else Peskov? if you don’t need a BMW, then I don’t suffer from such nonsense. as well as compare that suitcase weighing 15 kg and a normal tape recorder. UAZ .. why not a Cossack? Are TVs full of models? not funny? why are they so good all the competition lost to the Japanese or Koreans? since such good ah? where are they all?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Bull Terrier

why are they so good all the competition lost to the Japanese or Koreans?

I already wrote, in the absence of a remote control, poked at the buttons with a fishing rod, and fired at them from the air, switching channels. At work, for example, there is a huge Seagull, still plowing. Further. So in the 94th year, a friend bought a Vityaz, which in appearance was no different from the imported one. He worked for a week, and covered himself. And you know what happened? That in this TV set we decided to use Japanese details. The Japanese drove them into marriage. This is the kind of "fair competition".

[Bull Terrier]

oh how))) okay) this dispute does not make sense) let it be your way. The horizon is a chic TV) and the Japanese do not know how to make parts.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Bull Terrier

Horizon then chic TV

Very good. For a year, in the 88, they connected a video recorder to it, and opening their mouths they twisted porn. Oh how! And ours do not know how to shoot this! By the way, the horizon at one of my acquaintances worked five years ago. With remote control on wires.

[Skarpzd]

here I agree. Horizons were definitely cool vehicles.

[Skarpzd]

I repeat. the next generation of domestic video mags was no different from similar Japanese ones. an example is the electronics of the vmc 8220.

[Bull Terrier]

But the fact that the production was purchased from the Koreans is also a trifle?))) modestly keep silent /))) as well as the fact that it was just a licensed copy?))) then the Nissan Tiana which our machine also makes in St. Petersburg?)))

[Skarpzd]

Well, let's say VAZ is also a licensed copy of the fiat. and yes. about teany. going with us - ours. my opinion. and sometimes the assembly is better than the original.

[Bull Terrier]

poor company Aplle achieve capitalization of a trillion and turn out to be essentially a Chinese company))) Trump, in my opinion, hangs himself somehow) but in essence ... it proves everything once again - they did nothing at all in the Union. all that we now remembered was the usual foreign development that we had been sold a little expensive. And even in that we managed to produce so little that people had to stand in line for basic things for everyday life. actually the whole conversation was about)

[Ros 56]

Dear, brought UAZ costs under 30 bucks, with a deficit. And usually green boys throw at the behi, who ate nothing sweeter than carrots.

[Bull Terrier]

what are the criteria? why would an ordinary city dweller with a good income bring some kind of UAZ? he needs comfort prestige and accessibility. spend time buying a car and then fine-tuning if you're just not a fan of rare stupidity. there is no elementary time for this. Came bought use. what does carrot and age have to do with it? and what you described is not a shortage, but a demand for the products of a certain studio. Mercedes Brabus also does not put on stream. buyers for such cars out of the total amount are extremely insignificant and will not cover the costs.

[Skarpzd]

I already wrote about the consoles. not much earlier they appeared in them. about the number of channels .... yes ... only in my locality there were only 2 of them. first and second. and do not care for me how many channels the TV selector is designed for? 100 or 12 ???? both that and another blocked TV broadcasting in abundance))

[Skarpzd]

and in what year did he bring it? and let's compare VM 12 with Panasonic (I don’t remember the type) of the same approximate years ??? THIS IS A CONCEPTUALLY THE SAME apparatus. VM 12 by the way was better in that it also supported SECAM.

[Bull Terrier]

I remember that Panasonic) though it appeared much earlier than VM 12 but the same little things) but when the suitcase appeared the Japanese made the legendary model NV-G12. with remote control normal loading cassettes)))

[New Year day]

Quote: Ros 56

As everywhere, there were pros and cons, but on the whole they were calm for tomorrow and in the evenings there were a lot of people on the streets

nothing to add to what has been said. it was so.

[New Year day]

Quote: Bull Terrier

I want to eat normal and different food. relax where I want. afford a good car. to give his wife jewelry and expensive gifts rather than carnations.

Well then, get today's day. You have to pay for everything, dear.
Communication in power with the people is single-channel.

[Bull Terrier]

and what's wrong with that? what you need to work to allow yourself something? and why do I need a connection with the authorities? I want to change my life; you want someone else's. we will not understand each other.

[naidas]

Quote: Bull Terrier

what you need to work to allow yourself something?

So sometimes you want a piece of cheese according to the recipes of the USSR, there’s already how much you don’t work anyway you will not allow yourself anymore, the whole world eats food in chemistry.

[Bull Terrier]

opened Belarusian milk and I’m not taking another one already.

[naidas]

Milk in the village of green of the same quality (like Sarafanovo) does not attract Soviet (milk sugar cannot be prepared without chemistry), as well as Belarusian stew is good, but not that.
With a big mug, I got it once, by the timing it’s normal, but already sour.

[free]

And how many people can now “I want normal and different food to eat. Rest where I want to. Afford a good car. Give my wife jewelry and expensive gifts and not carnations?” How many can do that? No, not many at all! But a Bull Terrier can! And how does he do it, that's the question? Sing a light, don't be ashamed.

[Bull Terrier]

not for yours) I have a white salary)

[free]

Quote: Bull Terrier

not for yours) I have a white salary)

And now we’ll find out! What kind of work do you have? Who do you work?

[Wizzzard]

Quote: Bull Terrier

What do you mean?)))) what was free? just to explain your own answer to the question-how did people working for free get wages built by women and schools? the wind blew? what was the well-being? This is when my father was sent by sending parcels on the other side of the country? or when normal furniture was not to buy? Didn't half know the words like a Japanese TV or VCR? then you give the well-being as an example? How did I stand behind the dumplings in the central grocery store for two hours in a queue of 2 kg? when ice cream cake only for wild blat could buy? and the car trough with nuts and then through the queue? we have with you in different ways this word means. I am not an animal. I want a normal and different food to eat. rest where I want. afford a good car. give his wife jewelry and expensive gifts and not carnations.

URGENTLY CHANGE: Japanese TV and VCR, plus a car without nuts (and two pairs of jeans in addition) on the USSR! (I can also pour buckwheat.)

[Pushkar]

Quote: Bull Terrier

What are you?)))) what was free? just to explain, answer yourself the question - how did people working for free receive salaries, built hospitals and schools? the wind blew ?.

Totally agree with you! People stood in a line for apartments from 10 to 20 years old, when changing jobs at a new place, they put them again at the end of the line, and the apartment (meter, floor, north or south side, new or used) was chosen not by you, but by the trade union committee, Party committee and director. The same story throughout. Under Soviet rule, those in power distributed benefits.

[Skarpzd]

it was different. father just did not wait for his turn. Last summer, my sister and I bought an apartment for him. Mom just did not live 17 days before the move. but there were other examples. for example, a city like Sharypovo in the Krasnoyarsk Territory and 200 kilometers from me. THROUGHOUT THE YEAR, people received apartments. and especially valuable (locomotive drivers, excavators, and the like) were so directly harassed by housing. my cousin moved there. during the course of a month, housing was received in a new house. the Machinist of a diesel locomotive.

[Saburov]

Quote: Bull Terrier

how did people working for free receive salaries, build hospitals and schools?

What nonsense is this? If you don’t know, then the Constitution of the USSR (in all three editions) says: Exploitation and slave labor are prohibited! Even prisoners in the USSR for years received a salary in the form of settlement receipts, which were cashed upon release. The prisoners did not receive a salary only during the period from 1941 to 1946 year, only additional was left. rations. “The average cost of the camp, the cost of clothes and shoes and the income tax were withheld from the prisoners' salaries at the average cost of the camp, however, so that under all conditions, working prisoners would be given at least 10% of actual earnings”. The statutory deductions in practice were huge. So, at the construction of the Kuibyshev hydroelectric station with the average monthly salary of prisoners in 1951 in 397 rubles. on their hands they received an average of 200 rubles. Moreover, more than 7% of prisoners received only the minimum 10% guaranteed income. In 1949, ILO Convention No. 95 On Wage Protection appeared. In accordance with this document, modern lawyers conclude that “work without payment is forced labor prohibited by the ILO Convention N 95 of 08.06.49. Thus, even the labor of the prisoners of the Stalinist Gulag was not only not considered compulsory from the point of view of international norms in force at that time (and even today), but it was also paid for, which was an advanced phenomenon from the point of view of labor legislation.

Quote: Bull Terrier

Is this when my father, relatives on the other side of the country, sent buckwheat in parcels?

I’m embarrassed to ask, did your father send the buckwheat from your bags not to the Eskimos in the North Pole in 1943? I have never heard such nonsense in my life. It seems that after the war there was no famine ...

Quote: Bull Terrier

when didn’t you buy normal furniture?

Interesting. Then where in the majority of Soviet apartments are Polish, Czech, Romanian, Hungarian, Soviet walls and cabinets? Where did you read this nonsense?

Quote: Bull Terrier

and the words like a Japanese TV or VCR half did not know

Do not confuse warm and soft. Especially the capitalist financial market system with a socialist distribution system. There was no Consumption Society in the USSR. Commodity-money relations in the economy of the USSR played a secondary role. Only 14% of all industrial products of the USSR entered the market, the remaining 86% of industrial products were distributed bypassing market mechanisms, using administrative command methods. The socialist distribution system was based on the Socialist economic system - a planned system of social production based on social socialist ownership of the means of production and labor free from exploitation. The material basis is large-scale machine production. It develops in accordance with the objective economic laws inherent in socialism in the interests of the fullest satisfaction of the material and cultural needs of society, the planned, proportional development of the national economy. Includes a set of public enterprises, industries and spheres of social production, interconnected by the social division of labor. It is fundamentally different from the capitalist economic system and has, in comparison with it, fundamental advantages that ensure the rapid and steady development of the productive forces (since 1930, industry, food production, production of consumer goods, etc., has only increased and never fell.) The improvement of production relations and systematic improvement of the people's life. You're like a five-year-old ... I didn't have a bicycle, so the country is bad ... the conclusion is simply "convincing." Have you tried to compare with the level of purchasing power and the standard of living of all segments of the population?

Quote: Bull Terrier

when could ice cream cake be bought only in the wild

That's honest ... funny to tears. Ice cream cake with cream for a ruble forty by pull? Was it hard to find? You certainly didn’t live at the North Pole?

[Bull Terrier]

this system that you describe is utopia in itself) and I did not live at the North Pole. if for you the news is that in one place of the country it was possible to buy pineapples and in another they were only seen in pictures, what can I prove to you? we have all the vegetable shops were littered with frozen Vietnamese. there was mango juice in jars. and relatives in the west of the country they saw them only in pictures for example) buckwheat was sent because we have a lot of it and they have a little of it. hunger has nothing to do with it. I'm talking about the choice. I can easily buy any product now. then it wasn’t. about ice cream everything is simple. cakes were made by only one workshop in a huge city. 30 pieces per day. As you know, they did not go on sale. from a simple ice cream a standard set of milk cream and ice cream. all. and in the same Moscow there was a popsicle which was not produced in my city. in Gomel, the fun that I, as a child, terribly loved and could not understand why my mother can not buy it for us. 9 months a year milk in powder stores. I still hate that taste. or frozen butter. one kind and either it or nothing. sausage of several types. various kinds of delicacies we brought home from vacation from the west. we just didn’t do them. Do you understand what I’m talking about choice? not about absence? service apartment in a military town. only dream of another. father never got an opportunity to buy a car. which in itself is wildness. you have to stand in line to buy yourself something for your money ...

[Saburov]

Quote: Bull Terrier

and the car is trough with nuts and then through the queue?

You forgot again that in the USSR there was no consumer society. And cars, or rather, a larger percentage was distributed for buying out of turn. First of all, academicians, veterans, heroes of labor, military, etc. Plus, the Soviet auto industry has successfully worked for export to both the socialist countries. camps, and to Latin American countries and capitalist Europe. The same Moskvich-412 in Belgium was assembled under license. KrAZ trucks were willingly bought not only for military needs, but also for the national economy. For example, the United Kingdom purchased a batch of KrAZ-256 dump trucks for the construction of the English Channel tunnel. Therefore, there was not enough production capacity, and the people were not up to cars. Everyone worked. In addition, the country had a lot of worries. The USSR supplied almost everything abroad: from cardboard and fertilizers to buses and bulk carriers. A large share in world exports was made up of Soviet energy equipment intended for heating plants and hydroelectric power stations. In the 1980's, Soviet nuclear reactors entered the foreign market. He sold the USSR licenses for the production of turbines and generators, as well as power plant projects.

Now Russia is not capable of even making a modern iron on its own.

As for the economy of the USSR, the economy of the USSR was the second largest system of social relations in the world in terms of GDP in the sphere of production, exchange and distribution of products of various sectors of the national economy. The USSR economy accounted for about 20% of world industrial production. And it could be the first. Report on the USSR economy to Nixon, for example.

CCCP was one of the 5 countries in the world capable of independently producing all types of industrial products known to mankind. The USSR was in first place in the world for the production of almost all types of products of basic industries: oil, steel, cast iron, metal-cutting machines, diesel locomotives, electric locomotives, tractors, prefabricated reinforced concrete structures, iron ore, coke, refrigerators, woolen fabrics, leather shoes, cream oil, natural gas production, production of mineral fertilizers, lumber, reactor uranium, rail freight and passenger traffic, the second largest fish and other seafood in the world, sheep stock, livestock of pigs, electricity production, gold mining, cement production, coal mining, total length of railways, road freight turnover, air freight and passenger traffic. This is not taking into account free housing, medicine, education and social policy of the state. And this despite the fact that the USSR was under trade sanctions. And he traded with the poorest countries on the planet.

Quote: Bull Terrier

I am not an animal. I want to eat normal and different food.

Of course not an animal. You are a consumer.
Speaking at a conference held as part of the All-Russian youth forum Seliger-2007 organized by the Our Movement, Minister of Education Andrei Fursenko complained about the inert system in his department, which has been persistently trying to prepare a creative person, from the Soviet era. Now, according to the minister, the main thing is to nurture a consumer who can correctly use the achievements and technologies developed by others. ”

PS Do not read lousy newspapers. If you want to study history, contact the archive.

Sources: Encyclopedia in 4 volumes, Twenty-second Congress of the CPSU // Soviet Historical Encyclopedia. / Ed. E. M. Zhukova. — M.: Soviet Encyclopedia, 1973 — 1982., Statistical Yearbooks of the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR for 1956 — 1990, Judith Thornton. Economic Analysis of the Soviet-Type System. - Cambridge University Press (CUP) Archive, 1976. V.P. Dyachenko. The history of finance of the USSR. - M.: “Science”, National Economy of the USSR. - M., Finance and statistics, 1990 g and more.

[Vadim237]

"Now Russia is not even capable of making a modern iron on its own." But at the same time it does: nuclear reactors, isotopes, thermal imagers, MRI-medical equipment, jet engines, rocket engines, nuclear power plants, optical fiber, alloys, submarines, electronics - computers, AFAR and radar, communication systems, cryogenic equipment, construction equipment and even 3D printers, as well as much more. It doesn't make any sense to make your own irons - it doesn't make any sense - some of the household items under foreign brands have long been produced in Russia, with localization, just like machine tools and cars. Consumption is not a bad thing - thanks to it, I can purchase the equipment that I need, the equipment that I need, the place where I will do this and produce products that I consider useful for myself and others, and at the same time I will not have a constant brake because, , this is not there, but there you get it only by barter, and so on as it was in the USSR. And no matter how regrettable for you the consumer society - in terms of progress, it has bypassed us - significantly in: electronics, cybernetics, space, mechanical engineering and much more, and only now we are starting to catch up.

[Saburov]

Quote: Vadim237

nuclear reactors, isotopes, thermal imagers, MRI - medical equipment

On foreign electronics (mainly on Chinese and Taiwanese boards). This is how we "substituted" imports.

Quote: Vadim237

jet engines, rocket engines, nuclear power plants

Developments by Soviet engineers. How can something new appear in the country when engineers, designers and skilled workers have not been fed for 30 years? So they "modernize" everything that is left. The same Borey development of the late 1980s, the submarine was designed as a two-shaft SSBN, similar in design to the 667BDRM Dolphin project with a reduced height of the missile silos for the Bark missile system. Armata is the program "Improvement-88" in particular Object 195, with minor changes in the basis of the concept. The Kalibr family missiles were created on the basis of two projects: the 1975M1984 strategic nuclear cruise missile with a combat radius of 3 km, developed during the period from 10 to 2500 at the Novator SMKB, and the Alpha anti-ship missile competition (ROC Biryuza ). What developments? What are you speaking about? Understand that if the state pays a physics teacher 15-20 thousand rubles, and a regional deputy 300 thousand rubles, then this state does not need smart people. That when the Central Bank's key rate is about 8%, it means that the state is not going to develop industry and production. That when the offspring of all our "leaders" live abroad, it means that they do not want the future of their children in this country. That when all our funds are stored in those countries that the Kremlin presents to us as "enemies", it means that they are not going to invest and invest this money in the economy of their country.

Quote: Vadim237

Electronics - Computers

Oh yeah! We just made it! Do you know that we have a piece of electronics production? And then by order. It is very difficult to engage in production in our country, and even more so at such a time. This is a risky occupation both from an economic point of view and from a marketing point of view. In Russia, more than 700 factories, enterprises and research institutes connected with the electronic industry were closed. And most of these enterprises were closed after the 2000's. Even an article on VO was about this. (https://topwar.ru/30555-spisok-unichtozhennyh-naibolee-krupnyh-i-vysokotehnologichnyh-predpriyatiy.html) Now we only have a little more than 70 tees. And these enterprises cannot even satisfy the needs of the defense industry at 30%. All that is missing is bought from the Chinese, Koreans, and Taiwanese. And the market demand in Russia, even at 2%, will not be able to provide. And of course the price! Beat your own so that strangers are afraid! Moreover, at the purchase prices for the state, we already overtook the USA by the 20% threshold.

Quote: Vadim237

Irons do their own clean - it makes no sense

So then why do their cars, civilian planes and light bulbs do? Easier to buy? So? Let's not produce anything at all? We will only consume! In exactly 130 years back. When on the ships of the Imperial Navy, Russian destroyers, cruisers and battleships there were German and Swedish turbines, English gyrocompasses and rangefinders .. I hope on which aircraft our aces shone in World War I do not need to be reminded of? Newpore, Bulldog ...

Quote: Vadim237

Consumption is not a bad thing - thanks to it, I can purchase equipment

Right. Support the bourgeois. He will sell you three-way. And with this money he will make three more such machines. One for his production, two will sell. As a result, he will update his production three times faster than you. And the update will come out to him almost for nothing. And you will get more profit than you. And all just because you will buy from him at this price and do not want to produce this equipment yourself. For some reason "does not make sense." You are bad at economics and production.

Quote: Vadim237

consumer society - we were beaten by progress - significantly in electronics, cybernetics, space, engineering and much more

Two conditions for the development of capitalism? Technological progress and access to foreign markets. Technical progress is provided by the consumer society ... Do you need a phone with a built-in vacuum cleaner or not. But you buy it. Not you, so your children brought up in this system. This is what Marx knew. Entering foreign markets has already ended - where next? Will aliens sell iPhones?
The electronic industry of the countries of Europe, the USA, Japan, no matter how tough the competition between firms, was developed in the conditions of a widely developed exchange of achievements through international trade in licenses and patents, documentation for technological processes, the latest technological, measuring and optical-mechanical equipment, materials etc.
The electronic industry of our country was completely deprived of such an opportunity. The United States created a special international committee (COCOM), which controls all scientific, technical, trade and economic relations with the USSR. KOCOM has developed a position and a huge - in 250 pages - set of rules by which the USSR could not sell not only advanced technologies and products belonging to any high-tech industry, and primarily microelectronics and computer technology, but also technological and measuring equipment, materials, presentation machine equipment, etc. ”Therefore, the USSR reached everything by itself. Remind
who and where did you create a semiconductor heterostructure for and got the Nobel for it? If the names Mikhail Rusinov, Sergey Izenbek, Yuri Denisyuk, Alexander Prokhorov, Zhores Alferov and a couple more thousand names do not tell you anything, then you probably do not know at all where and how the electronics developed. Not to be confused with TVs, this is a different level.

Through space, when did the USA land on the moon in 1969? The lunar surface of 14 on September 1959 was first reached by the Soviet automatic interplanetary station Luna-2, delivering a pennant with the coat of arms of the USSR to the area near the craters Aristill, Archimedes and Autolycus. During the flight, the AMC also produced a series of scientific studies. About the first flight into space, the first satellite, the first space flight, the first space stations, the first Astron space ultraviolet telescope, the first fully automatic flight of a returned spacecraft under computer control, without human intervention (MSC "Buran"), the first automatic docking two spacecraft, the first flight of a spacecraft from Earth to another planet (landing of the AMS Venus-2 on the surface of Venus), the first joint flight of three spacecraft (spacecraft Soyuz-6, Soyuz-7, Soyuz-8 ), the first with Arch in space, the first planetary rovers "Lunokhod-1», the first photo of the back side of the moon (AMC "Luna-3»), etc. So who was behind there?

In mechanical engineering? And you do not know what the USSR was the leader in heavy and medium-sized engineering? If you could provide about 20% of world industrial production. The USSR was in first place in the world in the production of steel, cast iron, metal-cutting machines, diesel locomotives, electric locomotives, tractors, prefabricated reinforced concrete structures, and iron ore. Further I hope it is not necessary to list?

PS Starting in 1991, Russia has not produced anything of its own and has not even built a single large plant, which they built in the USSR during the five-year period. And no, they built ... The first phase of the East Siberia-Pacific Ocean oil pipeline. Now Russian oil is pumped not only to the West, but also to the East. Oil and gas production at sea off the coast of Sakhalin under production sharing agreements (Sakhalin - 1,2,3). Almost everything is exported.
A gas pipeline on Sakhalin, from north to south to a gas liquefaction plant.
A natural gas liquefaction plant was built in Sakhalin to ship it by sea to foreign consumers.
The Nord Stream subsea gas pipeline increasing gas exports to Europe.
Construction of the South Stream gas pipeline to increase gas exports.
An oil terminal was built in Primorsk, which V. Putin opened in 2001, the terminal increases oil exports.
Now it's fashionable to talk nonsense about lasers and hypersound, and everyone somehow forgot about the fundamental laws of physics. For example, about the law of diffraction or the effect of a plasma cloud. And about the fact that engineers and designers in Russia have not been fed or "produced" for 25 years. As if by a pike! The main thing is to make the appearance of something "breakthrough", "unparalleled" as it was with "Caliber" and "Armata", even if this breakthrough was created and developed in a completely different country called the USSR. The main thing is that the plebs "hawala" pseudo-patriotic nonsense, and then they will come up with something like: We did not succeed a bit ... she drowned ... or we will work on "new physical principles" (apparently this phrase was invented by Rogozin himself together with Patriarch Kirill ). And you go to the website of the Ministry of Finance of Russia and somehow it becomes uncomfortable when we are at war with those with whom we keep money. https://www.minfin.ru/ru/perfomance/nationalwealthfund/management/

[Vadim237]

In general, from 91 to 2018, a lot of things were built, in all directions, from the energy sector to the production of needles for syringes. At the moment, the Ruselectronics holding includes 123 enterprises and they do not sit still, about supporting the industry - up to 24 years for this will allocate 1680 billion rubles, about irons - these products will never pay off with us, since there are a dozen manufacturers on the market who have long been entrenched and will be the same as with our smartphones - for 30000 or more about science - we have a lot in the USSR, what they invented and discovered, but most of this management put on a shelf from which in the 90s they took everything and went abroad, and yes, the electronic base in the USSR was always backward, a bright indicator of computers since the 60s adopted a program - copying from American and the latest computers Elbrus 3 was a copy of the American in terms of performance inferior to the original. About hypersound, developments in aerodynamics, heat-resistant materials for control systems, flow around engine building - have been going on since the 60s, and only now the problems of flow control and other things have been solved, and this is not the merit of the USSR, but of today's scientists and designers - there are many who are preparing them. "Russia has not produced anything of its own since 1991" - It has also produced a lot of things, as an example of its production in medical instrument making

[Saburov]

Quote: Vadim237

Has produced and a lot of things, as an example of its production in medical instrumentation

Let's not talk about "a lot of things". Examples please. Has at least one large plant or production been built? Plants for the export of raw materials over the hillock do not count! Can you name at least one medical device based on domestic components?

Just now, one "rabid" member of the forum also proved to me that Russia had built a "huge" plant for the assembly of air defense systems. But in fact, there were only three workshops on the territory of the plant built in the 1930s. And our "optimizers" manage to "optimize" 10 production lines into one. And do not care that the power also falls 10 times. And that qualified personnel will be thrown out on "free" bread. For that they will write on paper: they produced one plane a year, they began to produce two! Aviation Industry Growth 100%!

And who should work? I can tell you in detail how we "train" specialists and visit factories, there were precedents and I will tell you that there is just a terrible crisis with personnel at enterprises, about 100 out of 20 young specialists leave to work abroad, about 30 go into business, about 40 are poorly prepared and go where they pay more to the oil industry or to private production, and only 10 go to the defense industry, but out of these 10, only two remain there at best. How can you interest a young specialist with a salary of 30 thousand? A legless footballer is paid a million, but there is no money for a competent specialist? This is the policy of our dull-headed government and this policy continues to destroy not only secondary specialized education, but also the culture of production in general. So what's the point for them to build factories.

PS Recently Mr. Shuvalov said. "There will be no deoffshorization! Money from offshore companies will damage the Russian economy!" And the list of backbone companies, in respect of which forced deoffshorization was proposed, includes 199 state and private legal entities. This includes the largest enterprises, banks, retail chains, mainstream media and other companies, which together provide more than 60% of national GDP. These are Gazprom, Rosneft, Russian Railways, Norilsk Nickel, Transneft, RIA Novosti, Channel One, Russian Post, AFK Sistema and so on. If we add to this list those offshore enterprises that are not included in the list of backbone enterprises, then it is easy to see that practically the entire Russian economy, with the exception of grandmothers selling sunflower seeds on the market. So no one is going to build anything in Russia. They will only pump out the bowels and sell their goods here at an exorbitant price. Don't believe in fairy tales.

As long as there are fools in the world,
By deception, we live, therefore, with our hands.
What a blue sky
We are not supporters of robbery:
A fool not need a knife,
You’re lying to him from three baskets -
And do with it what you want!

Yours!

[Saburov]

Quote: Vadim237

About hypersound, developments in aerodynamics, heat-resistant materials, control systems, flow around engine building - have been going on since the 60 years, and only now the problems of flow control and other things have been resolved, and this merit is not made by the USSR, but by current scientists and designers - many people are preparing them.

The current scientists are already all over 50 years! Where did 30 years ago receive their education? In what unknown country? Could you tell? Tell me at least five names of scientists who are younger than 40 years?

Do you want to argue with the main developer?

Quote:

Russian developers of hypersonic weapons have to solve the problem of ensuring long-term movement with the hypersonic speed of an object in the atmosphere. This was reported to Izvestia by the adviser to the head of the corporation NPO Mashinostroyeniya on science Herbert Efremov.
According to the expert, for this it is necessary to create ramjet, rocket-turbo-ramjet or a combination of turbo-ramp marching engines. However, according to him, world-famous direct-flow apparatuses, both domestic and American, are exclusively research.
“These technologies have not yet been mastered. Moreover, even in direct-flow engines already tested in different countries, it has not yet been possible to provide stable, reliable combustion in combustion chambers when driving in hypersound. It is still unclear whether these problems will be resolved in the near future, ”said Efremov.
In addition to the development of the marching engine and thermal protection, the creation of a hypersonic apparatus involves the solution of "a mass of other technical problems." “For example, issues of motion control, guidance, the passage of radio waves through plasma. And also ensuring stealth and maneuvering, ”notes Efremov.

The Americans apparatus at the speed of 9 max, burned out in 10 seconds. I hope you will not argue that the United States has more financial and scientific opportunities in 100 more than ours?

PS Nowadays, only beautiful startups are taught to do well! And do not believe fairy tales at all, be realistic and smart people!

[Vadim237]

There is no need to talk about all 50-year-old scientists - I have seen quite a few 30-year-olds, all the same, no matter how - a subcontractor for 34 enterprises and design bureaus. On the engine - it has already been made by Energomash, while your Efremov says something - on his own behalf, ramjet + liquid-propellant engine back in 2016 and was tested at the same time, on the Zircon rocket, as well as on the new rocket, air-surface for fighters bombers, there will be a scramjet engine, another such engine, together with the airframe they are creating a joint project: EU-Russia-Australia - hypersonic passenger aircraft [center][/ center "In our time, only beautiful startups are taught well". You probably don't have a single startup to judge the rest.

[Saburov]

Quote: Vadim237

Here about all 50 summer scientists it is not necessary to speak - I have seen quite a few 30 summer scientists

I asked you to give existing examples, and not "I have seen", "I was told."

Quote: Vadim237

On the engine - it has already been made by Energomash

On paper, but they forgot about the ravine. Where are the tests? Where is a working sample at all? And let's not talk about "it's all secret"! We have such "devices", but we will not tell you about them!

Quote: Vadim237

tested at the same time, on the Zircon rocket, as well as on the new rocket air

The tests of which, no one has ever seen. As well as not confirmed its claimed characteristics.

Quote: Vadim237

EU- Russia- Australia - hypersonic passenger aircraft

The layout is called "Minced Passengers" or ignorance grew stronger ... the consumer society, whatever one may say. With the same success, it is possible to demonstrate models of space hyperluminal starships. I'm talking about the era of startups, scientific and technical swindlers, for weaning the dough from an ignorant investor.

Quote: Vadim237

will be scramjet

Understand already the difference between is and will be! It’s time to grow up!

PS So these are not facts, these are your "conclusions" based on "your" opinion. And there are two opinions, one’s own and correct. Knowledge is needed for an opinion to be correct! A fact is a special sentence that captures empirical knowledge, a statement or a condition that can be verified, that is, verified. Your "knowledge" turned out to be another "bravado" from the TV. It has nothing to do with reality.

[Vadim237]

A working sample, but it’s a ramjet + LRE,

everything else will be demonstrated when the finished rockets are shown to the public, and even then the technical features of such engines will be closed from prying eyes. At the expense of minced passengers, on a hypersonic flight of 5 6 Mach - you see this model presented for review an experienced aerodynamic prototype that was tested at TsAGI, no startup there, the cooperation of large companies and research institutes MAI, VIAM and others and minced meat from there will be no passengers, since such aircraft will accelerate to Mach speeds of several speeds for about 20 minutes and also slow down; as a result, there will be minimal overload for passengers, the work is monumental and ours will cope. And the first controlled hypersonic flight was achieved in the United States, on the X 15 - 1968, the maximum speed was 7200 kilometers per hour.

[Saburov]

Quote: Vadim237

A working sample, but it is ramjet + LRE

He's not working. And only passed the fire tests, and then according to the commander-in-chief. That nobody has seen. This engine is for a promising aerospace aircraft. Which, as always, "will be" ... on paper and in plans. Where is the capacity? Even the PAK-FA only has a 5th generation airframe. And the standard engines for it have never been created and are unlikely to be created at all. The Americans made such an engine for the 5th generation 20 years ago. And 20 years ago we had a complete P ... just like now. And besides, the first flight of the Su-57 with the “Product 30” engine (the second stage) took place quite recently on December 5, 2017. So we are still far from a full-fledged 5th generation aircraft. And to a stably working hypersonic ramjet engine even further. At the beginning of the XXI century, a hypersonic PRVD is experimental: there is not a single sample that has passed flight tests that confirmed the practical feasibility of its serial production!

Quote: Vadim237

everything else will be demonstrated when the finished rockets are shown to the public

Already shown! Cartoons didn’t they look at the Federal Assembly?

Quote: Vadim237

and even the technical features of such engines will be closed from prying eyes.

What ignorance! What features are there? This type of engine has been known since 1950! SR-71 Blackbird, for example, a hybrid of turbojet and ramjet engines, some anti-aircraft missiles use ramjet).

Quote: Vadim237

And the first controlled hypersonic flight was achieved in the USA, on the X 15 - 1968 year, the maximum speed was 7200 kilometers per hour.

And you somehow did not mention that the project was closed due to insecurity. Of 199 flights, 125 flights are considered to be interrupted, that is, the planned independent flight did not take place for various reasons, although the link NB-52 - X-15 has already taken off. Interestingly, on 12 of December 1968 of the year, an anniversary, 200 flight could take place. A bunch of NB-52 - X-15 took to the air, but an independent flight was canceled. And where does controlled flight (by man) and automatic control? In particular, the operation of radio systems in hypersound. The X-15 project was a refinement of the space program, not the hypersonic program. The flight duration did not exceed 12 minutes. Of these, only a minute and a half seconds to disperse. X-43 generally set a speed record at 11 850 km / h. But this still did not cancel the fundamental problems associated with hypersound.

And in general, understand that Hypersound is a parameter of atmospheric flight, with a working fluid in the form of air for a ram engine. Not speed. By the way, with your sofa and computer, you also rush with an angular velocity relative to the center of the Earth several kilometers per second. And relative to the center of our Galaxy, about 80 000 km / s.

PS On VO there was an article by the way good about this. https://topwar.ru/138321-voennye-novinki-rossii-est-giperskorosti-no-est-li-giperzvuk.html

[Vadim237]

Another example of "doing nothing in the Russian Federation" from the Stan group -

And if for someone everything is crap - this does not mean that everyone has everything, just the same.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Vadim237

Another example of "doing nothing in the Russian Federation" from the Stan group -

Kolesov Nikolay Alexandrovich, gender director of the Concern Radioelectronic Technologies OJSC, built a mansion in Dubai for a yard of greenery. I answer for the words. I can attach a photo. If not laziness, then you can find a part in my comments. Is this not the latest development?
Stalin said about some people - "Are you an enemy, or a dragon"? Krylov said more accurately, "A helpful man is more dangerous than an enemy." How helpful are you?

[Vadim237]

And what was affected by this, such as the machine tool industry - that your Nikolai Alexandrovich bought a villa in Dubai - that you wrote no connections at all - except for a schiz.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Vadim237

what is your Nikolai Alexandrovich

First of all, he is yours - a government official whose expenses are hundreds of times higher than his income. Do you support the existing state policy? And who after this schiz? I mean, you don’t see the connection between the fact that OJSC Concern Radioelectronic Technologies, instead of directing a yard of greenery to develop its industry, pays villas for managers. At the expense of taxpayers. Then I repeat the question of Stalin - are you an enemy, or what?
PS. Saburov lucidly answered you on the machines below. If it is not given to understand - excuse me, I am a supporter of the theory "that the dad has not invested, do not drive with a stick."

[Saburov]

Quote: Vadim237

Another example of "doing nothing in the Russian Federation" from the Stan group

So what? Five-axis cutter. With imported filling, on an imported chip and boards. And in fact, a new package of old technologies. Read less nonsense on "Made by us". There, the opening of one workshop for sewing cases for screwdrivers is presented as a national achievement. The authorities should somehow distract the people from their pressing problems. They especially succeed in promoting non-existent achievements.

PS Someone with a clever head in the Kremlin seems to have realized that a Russian sucker is not a European sucker. And nevertheless it bites liberal values ​​badly. But on the sovereign-patriotic - with all our pleasure!

[Vadim237]

And I don’t have to peck at anything - the manufacturer of sliding bearings, gyroscopes and any high-tech products himself - I have a stable growth of orders from 17 to 27% per year to order, and therefore I will read "nonsense" on "Made by us" and others sites, at least it can be seen in practice what, who and how they are doing throughout Russia - instead of your delirium and everyday snot - "Russia does nothing and cannot do anything"

[Saburov]

Quote: Vadim237

And I don’t have to peck at anything - the manufacturer of sliding bearings, gyroscopes and any high-tech products himself - I have a stable growth of orders from 17 to 27% per year to order, and therefore I will read "nonsense" on "Made by us" and others sites, at least it can be seen in practice what, who and how they are doing throughout Russia - instead of your delirium and everyday snot - "Russia does nothing and cannot do anything"

Reasonedly! Earnestly! No strength - push on the eye!

Well, can you name at least one machine or medical device based on domestic electronic components, produced over the past 25 years? You beat yourself in the chest and proved that we produce "a lot" of things?

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Saburov

You beat yourself in the chest

I saw a couple of times in the head, raving ....

[Vadim237]

You then flew a campaign before - a parrot.

[Vadim237]

Not a single country has such machines, aircraft — civilian machines and medical equipment — where 100% of their components are created and produced in one territory — cooperation is everywhere and always, one is not profitable to produce everything. Half your own is better than nothing at all.

[Saburov]

Quote: Vadim237

Not a single country has such machines, aircraft — civilian machines and medical equipment — where 100% of their components are created and produced in one territory — cooperation is everywhere and always, one is not profitable to produce everything. Half your own is better than nothing at all.

Do you want to name five countries at once? USA, South Korea, Japan, China, Germany. Questions?

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Vadim237

Half your own is better than nothing at all.

With math and logic you see trouble. "Half" means half, that is, 50%. Where is this 50%? The market for tools is 90% import, textiles are the same, electronics are almost 100% imported, tractors-excavators are 70% (personal observations), and if Belarus is considered an import, then maybe even more. Almost all of the heavy trucks are imported, there are no more Kamaz trucks in the flow. Machine-tool building is the same, no more than 20% domestic. Combines "Rostselmash" are encountered less and less. Hidden imports are not taken into account by you at all, and its share in all domestic products is at least 50%. This is when broilers in poultry farms are taken ONLY from imported eggs, sausage is made from imported meat, banal vodka is made from imported alcohol. "Domestic" "Superjet100" is more imported, like "Vesta" with X Ray. "Saburov poked you into the" domestic "products, but you are still delusional.
Where is Vadik half-and-half? It’s weak to answer with numbers, or will you regret all the pro-government nonsense?

[Bull Terrier]

and the creator does not want to live well?) he does not need a car apartment food? doshirak rags and a bus?)

[kitt409]

What you call "living well" is actually exactly that?) You previously wrote about different foods and the like, WOULD you know what you eat and what you feed your family and loved ones REALLY ((((
I exclusively read about milk from Belarus, but even this, alas, does not help ...
It’s just that you (and not only you) don’t know ...

[Bull Terrier]

Yes, it’s not about the composition of the products) I'm not a child), and the conversation about the products was exclusively in the context of their availability and not quality. Of course, chemistry is now in everything) it’s stupid to deny it.

[kitt409]

That is, it turns out that it’s good when there are a lot of products in the stores, and the fact that they are made of ... no matter) your approach is interesting, interesting, by the way, about products - well, by the way, I had to, no more, everything else - almost the same thing - cars, equipment)))
But in spite of all this, you don’t like the USSR at all - well, it’s YOUR RIGHT to assume that when dumplings needed to be queued for hours, it’s bad, but now that the dumplings are made from g ..., but there are a lot of them - it’s good, you have an original opinion, original)))

[Bull Terrier]

I did not say that I did not like everything. I say that there’s not only for what it is worth so wanting to return at that time. on products you do not give out your thoughts for mine. I clearly told you that I didn’t talk about the quality of the products. talked about the availability of products at certain times. I love organic food. and don’t eat any rubbish like cheese for 200 rubles. and not because of show-offs, but simply cheese cannot cost so much. and to make the choice easier, I sometimes read the calculations of Roskachestvo which almost every day check all kinds of products for composition.

[kitt409]

After the cheese for 200 and especially Roskachestvo, I don’t think it’s worth continuing any further, you don’t want to - so we will take it, understand what I wrote about ...

[Bull Terrier]

and what is wrong? I personally saw such cheese in network stores like traffic lights. but about Roskachestvo it is up to you to believe or not. I personally have no logical reason to consider these checks to be bad. https://roskachestvo.gov.ru/researches/ikra/ as an example. examination ratings composition of products. what else does? I have the opportunity to install the application and use the barcode directly in the store to test the product.

[kitt409]

Evidently, alas, I can’t answer, I’m not going to substitute anyone, but if you personally like Roskachestvo, then you’ll use it, but without me) ...

[Vadim237]

To live for pleasure, doing our favorite thing - to create something new and useful. This is what it means to live well.

[kitt409]

I agree with this, it’s a pity that our government does not completely share this, it has been the last time that has created as many obstacles as possible, and wants people to be able to do all this as late as possible, alas ...

[Saburov]

Quote: Bull Terrier

and the creator does not want to live well?) he does not need a car apartment food? doshirak rags and a bus?)

Of course he wants. But there is a huge difference when you ride Maserati among the poor. When some uncle owns and disposes of the public property, and without doing anything for this people. And when you, with your work and mind, help and set it as a goal, to create a society in which both your neighbor and you were satisfied and provided. Not afraid to lose your job, to be thrown out due to some kind of crisis into the street, for the future of your children, for their education, etc. This is a completely different consciousness ... the consciousness is not a consumer. After all, the goal of socialism is not to equalize everyone (as many boobies who have never read literature) think, but a change of consciousness in a person. So that he translates his greed into creativity for the benefit of all mankind, and not to yachts and palaces for his beloved. About this, the Greek Stoics wrote.

[Bull Terrier]

it all the same rests against a wall called motivation. to set a goal to make life better for everyone is an attempt to level them. you have money for maserati but you should be ashamed to own it because others do not. Well, why should I strive for something if I have to live like everyone else? not standing out? change of consciousness? on what? that everything should be given by the state and my business is to plow a shift and go home? I do not understand this. a person should always try to be the best. in everything. but socialism simply kills the desire to do something because I still can’t use my benefits. do not speak consumer consciousness? free medicine education and so on is consumption. here the logic works, everyone will give me everything they owe me. consumption of the product in its pure form and which is needed more and more.

[Saburov]

Quote: Bull Terrier

it all the same rests against a wall called motivation.

When you communicate, you get a feeling ... of some mundane person. What should be the motivation to love? Procreation? So then any reproductive woman will suit you, at least a beauty, at least a crocodile. If you follow your principle. But seriously, the motivation was one - a systematic improvement in the life of the people! Not by social groups, but in general.

Quote: Bull Terrier

you have money for maserati but you should be ashamed to own it because others do not. Well, why should I strive for something if I have to live like everyone else?

These conversations remind me of conversations with the Soviet nomenclature thieves. Which did not represent anything, but wanted to live better than others. As for grandfather Freud, exactly. Of course, you have the right to buy Maseratti and eat lobsters. Only from this, your people, it’s better not to heal. But if you opened a theater or a sports section for children, then the efficiency would be much higher. The principle of eat three throats - spit on the rogue from above, the current state of Russia. And besides, why is Maseratti needed in a society where there are no antagonistic classes? To prove to my beloved that I’m so all over again? Hegel's dialectic to help you.

Quote: Bull Terrier

I do not understand this. man should always try to be the best

So it was during the USSR that the best people were! And they tried and worked and created! From designers to athletes. And moreover, it was at almost all levels. I hope you will not argue against the obvious?

Quote: Bull Terrier

in everything. but socialism simply kills the desire to do something because I still can’t use my benefits. do not speak consumer consciousness?

Oh really? While the USSR was able to become a leader in the military-industrial complex, space, industry, agriculture, sports, art, etc. Paradox! You are already openly contradicting yourself.

Quote: Bull Terrier

free medicine education and stuff this is consumption

This is not consumption, but a necessity. In order to create and create something, a person must be healthy and endowed with knowledge. You are looking at everything from the point of view of whether I am good or not. And what will get me from this. The belly is full - the ear is deaf.

Quote: Bull Terrier

here the logic works, everyone will give me everything they owe me. consumption of the product in its pure form and which is needed more and more.

I'm tired of your inadequate examples that have nothing under them! Here's a concrete example. Our modern footballers and hockey players receive super-motivating salaries and bonuses, zero sense. In the USSR, athletes were not paid that kind of money. Will you announce the results? Do you know the name of the only goalkeeper in the world who received the Golden Ball?

World Championships
4 place at the 1966 World Championship (coach - N. Morozov)

European Championships
1960 European Champion (coach - G. Kachalin)
silver medalist of the European Championship 1964 (coach - Beskov K.I.)
silver medalist of the European Championship 1972 (coach - A. Ponomarev)
silver medalist of the European Championship 1988 (coach - V. Lobanovsky)
Olympics
champion of the Olympic Games 1956 (coach - Kachalin G. D.)
champion of the Olympic Games 1988 (coach - Byshovets A.F.)
1972 Olympic Games bronze medalist (coach - A. Ponomaryov)
1976 Olympic bronze medalist (coach - V. Lobanovsky)
1980 Olympic bronze medalist (coach - K. Beskov)

Previously (until 1998) the Olympic Games were prestigious in football. And many famous players tried to get the title of champion of the Olympic Games. If the title of world champion has the prefix "ex", then it is absent in the title of Olympic champion. Now players are trying to get to the World Cup for a simple reason, there is more money! And at the same time promote yourself so that you can make money on advertising campaigns later. The World Cup has become a rudimentary trademark for advertising and money.
For example, in 1988, the USSR became the champion, beating the Brazilians 2-1 in the final. And he beat all the "top" teams. Beating Bebeto and Romario is the limit of possibilities. They played for the best clubs in Europe. If these names are not known to someone, he has never seen real football! Bebeto and Romario played for Brazil, Taffarel, who knows about football, understands which team they won! After 6 years, these same Brazilians became world champions!
Germany, which took bronze at OI - 1988, will take the world in the same composition in two years!
In those years, France and Platini beat Argentina with Maradona and Canidzhai.


PS In general, your conclusions about the USSR are akin to the whims of a teenager. The country built institutes, schools, cultural palaces, stadiums, theaters, factories, kindergartens, hospitals, dispensaries, free housing (which is now being bought for some kind of wild money), sports sections, conservatories, etc., provided all citizens with work, education, medicine and even a free right to rest in the form of trips. Even officials did not allow the system to steal, and even ruled out the very possibility of spending stolen goods. Even the summer cottages were state! Do you see the VCR and the car! So the country is bad! You need to do something with your ambitions and complexes. Since they are already flowing into the stage of pathogenesis.

[Bull Terrier]

firstly, if your opinion is different from mine, then there’s no reason to be rude to me. secondly, you wrap all these arguments in a piece of paper and throw it yourself you know where for the price is the same to them. I am talking about people and their lives. and not about the achievements of the country as a whole in which it is possible to build a rocket and there is no normal toilet. where all these athletes and scientists from a low start from the country went to where their talent is paid in proportion to their contribution as soon as they got the opportunity. and the country I did not say bad I said not for the lives of ordinary people. I don’t have to give something, I need the opportunity to work and buy it. and don’t receive free of charge in the order of the queue which no one understands and according to what criteria distributed. that my father honestly serving the country did not receive anything from her at all. and then I bought an apartment and a car as soon as this country was gone. the truth is different things in 30 years to live as a person or in 50. and do not about sports. manning teams of the time when all the best are taken in one, killing the domestic championship for a long time they will study how to do it. about motivation in general darkness. Do you want to motivate an individual person to plow for the benefit of society?))) I'm afraid you should delve into this topic. for in this way you can motivate only ants. I think that’s where we’ll end, and then the mundane person wants a barbecue, and the state is such a bastard that will not bring it to me and will not buy it. say goodbye to sim.

[Saburov]

Quote: Bull Terrier

firstly if your opinion is different from mine

There are two kinds of opinions, one and the right. In order for the opinion to be correct, knowledge is needed!

Quote: Bull Terrier

rude to me.

Rudeness is a type of human behavior, characterized by a rude, arrogant and harsh way of communication, which are divided into social, linguistic and cultural-speech types. Did I call you a bad word? I just told you that in the process of communicating with you, you get the impression of a down to earth person. And this is excuse me, a statement of fact, of your own statements. Because you have never once mentioned a people or individual social groups, their standard of living, social security and so on. You are not at all interested in the fact how the state provided people and what for it did. Of all your posts, it sounds only to me, I, mine and all in the same spirit. Check it out?

Quote: Bull Terrier

something I need the opportunity to work and buy it.

Quote: Bull Terrier

Well, why should I strive for something if I have to live like everyone else?

Quote: Bull Terrier

for I cannot use my goods anyway.

Quote: Bull Terrier

and figs, I’ll give it to anyone even for the loudest slogans)

Quote: Bull Terrier

Yes, and I said all that about what is personally mine)

Quote: Bull Terrier

this is when my father is kindred on the other side

Quote: Bull Terrier

I can easily buy now

As required.

Quote: Bull Terrier

I am talking about people and their lives. and not about the achievements of the country as a whole

Wonderful! People separately, the country separately? Are the achievements of the country also separate? I have a feeling that you did not live in the USSR at all, or at a very early age, for a short period of time. Who then created the country? If a designer or a worker or a geologist and others, they took excess norms constantly and not in order to buy themselves a golden toilet bowl or a car, but so that their descendants and their country would develop not only in scientific and industrial terms, but also in terms of well-being. Which is an indisputable fact on the example of the standard of living in the USSR in the 1950s and 1970s. And this is all despite the fact that, in fact, the nomenklatura, which considers itself more "equal among equals", began to destroy the USSR exactly after the XX Congress (1956).

In 1998, comrade Yakovlev (one of the main ideologists, “architects” of perestroika), recalling his activities, said: “After the 20th Congress, in the ultra-narrow circle of our closest friends and like-minded people, we often discussed the problems of democratization of the country and society. They chose a simple, like a sledgehammer, method of propagating the "ideas" of late Lenin. A group of true, not imaginary reformers, developed (of course, verbally) the following plan: to strike at Stalin, at Stalinism, with the authority of Lenin. And then, if successful, Plekhanov and Social Democracy beat Lenin, liberalism and "moral socialism" - revolutionism in general. It was necessary to somehow end the system. There are different ways, for example, dissidentism. But it is futile. It was necessary to act from within. We had the only way - to undermine the totalitarian regime from within using the discipline of the totalitarian party. We have done our job. At the beginning of perestroika, we had to partially lie, dissemble, dissemble, dissemble - there was no other way. We had to - and this is the specificity of the restructuring of the totalitarian system - to break the totalitarian communist party. The Soviet totalitarian regime could be destroyed only through publicity, the totalitarian discipline of the party and the creation of tension in Soviet society (deficit), while hiding under the interests of improving socialism. Looking back, I can proudly say that the cunning, but very simple tactics - the mechanisms of totalitarianism against the system of totalitarianism - worked. ”

How could a shortage of goods begin in the country when our production only grew and never fell from the 1930's? Video in the topic:

That is, the socialist system was so intelligently built that it was impossible to change it (in order to steal and parasitize people's wealth), it could only be destroyed. In the USSR there was not a single official or minister who would have yachts and villas. The system did not allow to steal, especially in large sizes. Yes, and the system did not allow to spend and withdraw this money abroad.

Quote: Bull Terrier

de all of these your athletes and scientists from a low start from the country went to where their talent is paid in proportion

Well, are they gone? What have they achieved? Name at least five names of the "great" athletes and scientists who left to "earn money"? NHL - local championship? Or inventions for the layman? What were they able to create? What value do they have for humanity?

[Saburov]

Quote: Bull Terrier

in which you can build a rocket and there is no normal toilet

This indicates the purpose of the state. I already understood your goal.

Quote: Bull Terrier

and the country I did not say bad I said not for the lives of ordinary people.

Well, are you complaining? No VCR, no car, no ice cream cake. For you, as a "consumer", such a country must in fact be bad. And the fact that people at the same time have guaranteed good earnings (about the purchasing power of the ruble within the USSR, I hope you don’t need to prove anything?), Get free treatment, study for free, get housing, are fully protected socially and are not afraid for the future of their children. That in the country science, art, industry, sports and so on are developing by leaps and bounds, you for some reason are completely ignored. And who are these "ordinary" people? Whose goal is to produce "normal" toilets? You know, I never thought about toilets in the USSR, for some reason I thought about something completely different. And the Soviet toilet, quite normal and efficient. Until now, in rural clinics, palaces of culture, and so on, they stand and work! Like Soviet refrigerators.

Quote: Bull Terrier

I don’t have to give something, I need the opportunity to work and buy it.

I didn’t understand this statement at all ... What prevented you from working well in the USSR, and for hard work, they gave the car for free at all. What nonsense you say.

Quote: Bull Terrier

don’t understand who distributed what criteria.

Distributed both at the all-Union level, and at the regional and local. The nomenclature certainly had a hand in it, especially closer to the middle of the 1980's. But it performed its main distribution functions. First of all, the heroes of the country and work, academics, scientists, outstanding athletes, military, veterans, the disabled and further on the list. And the auto industry for the layman in the USSR, was not even designed for that at all. Although it gradually increased its capacity. But still did not have time.

Quote: Bull Terrier

recruiting teams of the time when all the best are taken in one, killing the domestic championship

So where did then in the USSR championship come from so many good teams throughout the Union? Have you ever thought? And how do you explain that, in 1960, the Moscow torpedo team became the country's champions, they became the fourth club in a row that had such a title. In 1961, the Dynamo Kiev team received the same title for the first time - they were the fifth, and three years later the Tbilisi Dynamo team entered the first step of the podium, becoming the sixth USSR football champion. And the first half of the 1980's gave Soviet football three new champions: Dynamo Minsk, Zenit Leningrad, Dnipro. Dynamo Tbilisi in 1981 and Dynamo Kiev in 1986 once brought the Cup of Cups to the USSR. This is simply ignorance towards Soviet football, dear! So CSKA was not at all a panacea. The history of Soviet football to help you.

Quote: Bull Terrier

about motivation in general darkness. Do you want to motivate an individual person to plow for the benefit of society?)))

Do you understand what this is? It is difficult to explain to a mercantile person what the idea of ​​building a fair and healthy society is. Because he will judge everything and everything by his welfare and he is completely not interested in the cares of others. We are already more than 30 years old (and in fact by a lot more) hammered into the head, through advertising, lifestyle and stuff, consumer consciousness. The current state of Russia is an example of this. And motivation should not be based on consumption, but on the principles of justice and responsibility of one for all and all for one, if more simply. Until its collapse, the Soviet Union remained the world leader in the field of socio-economic legislation (the right to free education and medicine, the equation of the rights of men and women, the right to work), while in the field of ensuring personal and political rights, Soviet legislation did not comply with the declared Western countries to international standards. It is understandable, because it violated the principles of capital accumulation. And the inevitable stratification of society into social classes. If you remember, profits were exclusively a capitalist category (a converted form of surplus value, and surplus value exists only in capitalism).

If we take more specifically the main differences between Capitalism and socialism on the example of the USSR and Western countries according to modern estimates, these are:

The complete absence of unemployment and the provision of universal employment in social production is one of the main social advantages of socialism in relation to capitalism.
The level of social inequality under socialism is much lower than the level of social inequality in developed democracies.
The socialist model of the state built in the USSR and the socialist countries of Central and Eastern Europe was inferior to the Western model of the welfare state in terms of the benefits provided, but significantly surpassed the Western models in terms of breadth and ability to provide for the basic needs of people.

And do not forget that the only country that built socialism was the USSR. Even China was not able to do this and is slipping back farther into capitalism.

PS After all, the ideas of socialism were first presented in the works of the ancient Greek philosopher Plato, in the dialogues "State" and "Laws". According to Plato, the main quality of an ideal state is justice. Of course you can be successful in capitalism, but only in their economic system. With the established leaders in the form of the United States, where everything and everything is tied to one economic center and the incomes of countries are divided according to the principle of superprofits - due to the overexploitation of less developed countries and their labor force. And at the expense of this super-profit, in turn, to feed the already Western working class, creating a labor aristocracy in it, taming the labor bureaucracy. In other words, forming colonial empires. There is, for example, "Scandinavian Socialism". And they largely took experience in the USSR, coming here in whole delegations, especially in the 1970s and 80s. Today Sweden is ruled by social democrats who uphold the principles of the so-called "Scandinavian socialism". In terms of the level of social protection of its citizens, Sweden really takes one of the first places in Europe. However, in recent years, it has been noticeable that it is increasingly difficult for the government to make ends meet by spending more on social needs than the state is able to earn. Even the local Social Democrats were unable to reconcile a market economy with a socialist distribution system.

[Consultant]

I categorically congratulate you! Of all the demagogues I have seen in VO, you are perhaps the most talented.

But your boundless faith in yourself, beloved, destroys you. As a result of this, you sometimes start talking:

Quote: Saburov

What should be the motivation to love? Procreation? So then any reproductive woman will suit you, at least a beauty, even a crocodile

This is nonsense about the "crocodile". To wish for a better partner, a couple ... well, you get the idea - it is characteristic of any mammal (and not only), and a man in the sense of "procreation" is just a mammal. Like a bear, a fox and a hare

Quote: Saburov

And they tried and worked and created! From designers to athletes

Well, I didn't have a chance to communicate with the designers and athletes (and what, by the way, did the athletes "create"). But the fact that in a reputable organization that worked in space, it was impossible to approach a worker with an urgent order without a hundred grams of alcohol (he poured the department head as needed) - I saw it myself. They did, yes. On sheer enthusiasm.

Quote: Saburov

free housing

This is generally a separate song. It was built at the expense of everyone unpaid. It was not easy for everyone, and not all of the lucky ones. How was this housing distributed - to remind, or calm down yourself?

Quote: Saburov

You need to do something with your ambitions and complexes. Since they are already flowing into the stage of pathogenesis

Um ... have you looked in the mirror for a long time?

Too lazy to dig your others, sorry, footcloths - it is completely impossible to read them. But somehow in my spare time I’ll do it - I don’t like, you see, demagogues.

So far without respect -

[Saburov]

Quote: Consultant

This is nonsense about the "crocodile". To wish for a better partner, a couple ... well, you get the idea - it is characteristic of any mammal (and not only), and a man in the sense of "procreation" is just a mammal. Like a bear, a fox and a hare

Everything follows from the foregoing. If a person has guidance on this kind of motivation. Nothing extra.

Quote: Consultant

(and what, by the way, did the athletes "create"?)

It is necessary to read from the beginning. Not between the lines.

Quote: Saburov

And they tried and worked and created!

Quote: Consultant

On bare enthusiasm.

This "naked" enthusiasm, in general, was encouraged by cars and cash prizes and dachas and vouchers. And this despite the full provision of these people with everything they need to work.

Quote: Consultant

It was built at the expense of everyone unpaid.

It was built at the expense of the state’s superprofits and was originally laid down in the economic plan. Since it was a priority. This did not affect salaries. No one climbed into the pocket of the people. Statistics of the National Economy to help you. For example, a taxi fleet in the USSR, fully supporting itself, also compensated for part of the cost of the bus fleet. Do not say that which you do not know.

Quote: Consultant

Too lazy to dig your others, sorry, footcloths - it is completely impossible to read them. But somehow in my spare time I’ll do it - I don’t like, you see, demagogues.

Then why talk about it? Tell me how you don't love me?

Quote: Consultant

So far without respect -

It is your right.

[Consultant]

Quote: Saburov

Everything follows from the foregoing. If a person has guidance on this kind of motivation. Nothing extra

What "follows" from what, excuse me?

You wrote nonsense, they pointed it out to you. Prove that this is not stupid, or do not bother ...

Quote: Saburov

This "naked" enthusiasm, in general, was encouraged by cars and cash prizes and dachas and vouchers. And this despite the full provision of these people with everything they need to work.

And, despite this, there was that which was. In particular -

Quote: Consultant

it was impossible to approach a worker with an urgent order without one hundred grams of alcohol (I poured the department of department as necessary) - I saw it myself

What is the conclusion: not everything was so pastoral. Yes, I'm talking about the late Union - this is the 70s - 80s.

Quote: Saburov

encouraged and cars and cash bonuses and cottages and tickets

These gingerbreads were not for everyone. And not always - objectively the best. You do not know this, or simply prefer not to notice?

Quote: Saburov

It was built at the expense of the state’s superprofits and was originally laid down in the economic plan

Great aah. And this superprofit was formed

Quote: Consultant

due to unpaid all

What's wrong? You bustle again, regrettably.

Quote: Saburov

This did not affect salaries. Nobody climbed into the pocket of the people

There is no talk about salaries yet. As for "did not climb" - so where, then, is the excess profit?

Let us recall, by the way, what this excess profit was spent on. And she went to support the world-wide socialist camp, including the "socialist" regimes in Africa that had freshly climbed off the palm tree. Well, very productive, yes ... people warmly approved)))

Quote: Saburov

Then why talk about it? Tell me how you don't love me?

No. Recall that brevity is the sister of talent. No more

[your1970]

Quote: Saburov

On bare enthusiasm.


This "naked" enthusiasm, in general, was encouraged by cars and cash prizes and dachas and vouchers. And this despite the full provision of these people with everything they need to work.

Quote: Consultant
It was built at the expense of everyone unpaid.


It was built at the expense of the state’s superprofits and was originally laid down in the economic plan. Since it was a priority. This did not affect salaries. No one climbed into the pocket of the people.

-there is a nuance ...
Novocherkassk is called ... Do not remember - because of what did the riot have to be crushed there?

[Skarpzd]

Japanese TV ... tape recorder .. by and large, nothing but prestige did not differ from domestic. by parameters. and broke about the same. but the maintainability of the domestic was orders of magnitude higher. I declare this as an electronics engineer. and thanks to the "troughs with nuts", most motorists of my and older generation knew the technology at a decent level. (if you like to ride - love to carry sledges). I will not say about spruce, they did not buy it. somehow they did it with their own hands. and I didn’t see any starving people in the late 70s and early 80s. But the queues for bread at the end of August I remember. for some reason, both (in the city) bakery at this time simultaneously began repairs. and my duty in the family was to buy bread. and I also remember my uncle. father's brother. I was still quite a kid, as a machine operator and combine operator, he was awarded a medal and a ZAZ 966 car for his hard work. Note. not an effective manager, but a hard worker. he was not even a communist.

[Bull Terrier]

I say again that all my words are about choice and not about the absence of something. I had a decent amount of different equipment. and for many, many years, we never repaired them at all. bought a new one over time and the old ones either were given away or in the trash can and there someone will pick it up. they were in working condition. it’s also called quality. I appreciate the desire to look for pluses in everything but justify the purchase of the trough by the fact that due to this I began to understand the technology, I can’t forgive me forgiveness) I visit the center twice a year, I drop in there everything that needs to be changed and I am free. spend more time than it should be) who has a lot of it lying under the car) I'm not one of those) about the awards well) although now they are effective in the right sense of the word much more and several times a year) because if you bring profit to the company you will be motivated that would not be taken away by competitors.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Bull Terrier

for many years we never repaired them at all. bought a new one over time and the old ones either gave it back or in the trash

I’m somehow reluctant to grandfathers, the receiver of the Ocean, which he was awarded for throwing him away for work. Moreover, the sound is much better than modern tweeters. Recently brought in order.

Quote: Bull Terrier

twice a year I drop in to the center to me there everything that needs to be changed and I am free. I have neither time nor desire to spend more time on that

Somewhere in the deep taiga you break, and you can’t do anything.

[Bull Terrier]

and what did I forget in the taiga on a city car, one without a connection? I do not consider myself a suicide .. for such trips there are completely different means of transport.

[your1970]

Quote: Skarpzd

Japanese TV ... tape recorder .. by and large nothing but prestige did not differ from domestic. according to the parameters. and broke about the same.

-only that's what a dirty trick, unlike OURS - he never chewed cassettes. And our "Electronics-304" ate them with a bang - again OUR cassettes. Imported much less often, and their also chewed
But my father's Sharp (1983g.v.) - for the 22 of the year he chewed only twice
And yes - Electronics was much easier to repair ...

[AntonP]

Well compared hell with a finger.

[Bull Terrier]

By the way, I didn’t capture anything from you. everything in my life is earned by honest work. and figs, I’ll give it to anyone even for the loudest slogans)

[tatra]

That is exactly how to rage against the communists and their supporters, proceed with maniacal criticism of what they did, how the enemies of the communists worked and fought all together, and how to protect each other, what they themselves did, the results of their highly paid work after the seizure USSR, each of them is only for himself, and each "has nothing to do with it."

[Bull Terrier]

to rage?) but to whom did you surrender that))))) I immediately said, just ridiculous)

[Consultant]

Quote: tatra

how to rave against the communists and their supporters, to proceed with manic criticism

You freak out and criticize here. And the company, the names are well known to everyone.

The fact that you are raging not “against the communists”, but, on the contrary, like “for” - you (and the company too) does not come close to these very communists - you are still just shouts and critics. This is, to put it mildly.

You (and the company) had nothing to do with those communists on behalf of whom you are trying to broadcast here, you do not and will not have.

In short, do not teach life - you (and companies) are simply not given.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Consultant

In short, do not teach life - you (and companies) are simply not given.

And we do not teach, Roman Batkovich. We have here according to Gorbachev, pluralism and exchange of views.

[Consultant]

Quote: Mordvin 3

And we do not teach

And I didn’t mean you. I, um, had ... Tatra-shaped, in short. Well, there are some of them here, where to go

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Consultant

had ... Tatra-like,

Irishka is good. I met her on another site when I was banned there for a couple of weeks.

[Consultant]

Quote: Mordvin 3

Irishka is good

And I do not claim that Toffee is bad. But she drives extremely nipadetski

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Consultant

But she drives extremely nipadetski

About the enemies of the communists? Wow, she’s wedging.

[Cheslav Tsursky]

Quote: tatra

Exactly how to rave against the Communists and their supporters, to proceed with manic criticism of what they did, how the enemies of the Communists worked and fought all together

Irina, it’s already scary to read you! You probably have 95% of the comments of enemies, enemies, enemies, enemies ... It is not at all difficult to imagine that God will save you if those like you come to power! It is with deepest regret that I have to admit that it is you and many of your comrades in the eternal struggle who are raving about the mere mention of the thousand-year history of Russia and the achievements of generations and generations of Russian people! By the way, and the achievements of the USSR are largely not thanks to you, but contrary to the Russian people have achieved!

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Cheslav Czursky

By the way, the achievements of the USSR are largely not thanks to you, but contrary to the Russian people’s achievement

How's that? Expand your thought. Well, let's say on the example of the "Victory" car.

[Cheslav Tsursky]

On the example of a Victory car, you unfold your thoughts. And it’s better to take an interest in how Soviet serf peasants plowed for workdays. Even the passports, not to mention the money, were not worthy - everything was in the bins of the Soviet homeland!

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Cheslav Czursky

And it’s better to take an interest in how Soviet serf peasants plowed for workdays. Even the passports, not to mention the money, were not worthy - everything was in the bins of the Soviet homeland!

And I don’t say that everything was smooth. But there is no need to groan so indiscriminately.

[Cheslav Tsursky]

But am I sweeping? I am subject!

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Cheslav Tsursky

But am I sweeping? I am subject!

Well, here I am - in detail. As for the collective farms, yes, it was not so simple. It is enough to read at least "The Brawlers" by Alekseev. However, there were also moments.

“And how many humps does a new camel have, tv Kuzmich?”

“This two-humped one,” Abraham answered willingly and cheerfully, in tone with the one asking,

- Well, you are fools, Avrashka! - the same voice was heard (now everyone saw that it belonged to Karpushka). - I’d buy a one-hump search, you see, everything would have worked out for you in a good way. Two humps - no luck! And three yes plus your own - this is too much, Abrash, this is twenty-two! For four humps you, my dear, will have to be extorted and sent to where you follow ... to Solovki al, where else ... together with Yashka Krutyakov and Timoshka Efremov, with all, to get down that we just approved here for dispossession and expulsion! .. I understand, you moron sort of ?!

[Cheslav Tsursky]

Well, a very significant moment, in fact, you brought! What people, what camels, what a bug - what a cockroach ... The party said - the Komsomol replied there! In short, wood chips are flying! I will not argue about who said this, but the expression is also figurative and vital. People are not slivers, and this could not continue for more than 70 years. And so bust!

[New Year day]

Quote: Cheslav Czursky

Even the passports, not to mention the money, were not worthy - everything was in the bins of the Soviet homeland!

and now they work without labor and everyone in the bunker .....

[Cheslav Tsursky]

Quote: Silvestr

and now they work without labor and everyone in the bunker .....

They work normally. We occupy the first places in the export of agricultural products, as we did not once buy grain, as not so long ago!

[naidas]

Quote: Cheslav Czursky

Even the passports, not to mention the money, were not worthy - everything was in the bins of the Soviet homeland!

In Moscow, with passports, too, was not very:
The issuance of passports in Moscow and Leningrad began on January 25, in Kharkov on February 1, 1933. A total of 407572 people received passports. The first reports noted that with the beginning of certification, there was an outflow of population from Moscow and Leningrad. Certification was introduced “for the purification of cities”.
Yes, about the workdays, you decide, the issue has already been considered at VO-paid.

[Claymore]

Quote: Cheslav Czursky

take an interest in how Soviet serf peasants plowed for workdays

They plowed normally - nowadays they plow in the same way for the numbers on the accounts.

Even passports, not to mention money, were not worthy

It is, but only in the subjective reality of alternatively gifted citizens.

[Saburov]

Quote: Cheslav Czursky

And it’s better to take an interest in how Soviet serf peasants plowed for workdays.

One and the same.

Easy! Another delirium of a person who has read a lot of nonsense articles ... what a "bad" USSR was. At the same time, they forget to remember that there was "SOCIALISM" in the country - a doctrine that considers social justice, freedom and equality as the goal and ideal. Socialism is also understood as a social system that embodies these principles. A society in which there are no antagonistic classes, there is no exploitation of man by man, and labor power ceases to be a commodity. Where the social product is distributed in proportion to labor, which is the application of an equal measure to unequal individuals. Therefore, at this stage, full social equality cannot yet be realized. Along with the disappearance of class antagonisms within society, antagonisms between nations and peoples also disappear, which establishes relations of friendship and cooperation that are new in nature.

You are aware that the Constitution of the USSR (in all three editions) says: Exploitation and slave labor are prohibited! Even prisoners in the USSR for years received a salary in the form of settlement receipts, which were cashed upon release. The prisoners did not receive a salary only during the period from 1941 to 1946 year, only additional was left. rations. “The average cost of the camp, the cost of clothes and shoes and the income tax were withheld from the prisoners' salaries at the average cost of the camp, however, so that under all conditions, working prisoners would be given at least 10% of actual earnings”. The statutory deductions in practice were huge. So, at the construction of the Kuibyshev hydroelectric station with the average monthly salary of prisoners in 1951 in 397 rubles. on their hands they received an average of 200 rubles. Moreover, more than 7% of prisoners received only the minimum 10% guaranteed income. In 1949, ILO Convention No. 95 On Wage Protection appeared. In accordance with this document, modern lawyers conclude that “work without payment is forced labor prohibited by the ILO Convention N 95 of 08.06.49. Thus, even the labor of the prisoners of the Stalinist Gulag was not only not considered compulsory from the point of view of international norms in force at that time (and even today), but it was also paid for, which was an advanced phenomenon from the point of view of labor legislation.

Quote: Cheslav Czursky

Even the passports, not to mention the money, were not worthy - everything was in the bins of the Soviet homeland!

How then, by the 1960 years, the proportion of the urban population exceeded the proportion of the rural? Head did not try to think?

Tired of typing the same thing.
In reality, the Soviet Union did not have the character of an “ideal anti-utopia,” which anti-communist authors try to attribute to it. The mobility of the population in the USSR also existed within the passport system and played a significant role in the daily life of the country.
In 1920-1930, the country experienced a historic transition from an agrarian to an industrial society inevitably associated with the transition of a significant number of people from rural to urban areas. In an effort to register and regulate this process, the authorities introduced a local registration or propiska institute (1925) and a passport system (1932). The system operated in cities and workers' settlements, not covering the countryside. Passports in rural areas were introduced only in 1970-s.

However, this system of population registration did not exclude the migration of people from villages to cities. “Between the 1926 censuses and 1939, the rural areas of the USSR lost in migrations 18,7 million, i.e. almost all natural growth ”- reports statistics. From 1959 to 1974 year (the introduction of passports in the village), the countryside left and moved to the cities up to 1 a million people annually.
If this is “serfdom”, then it is completely unclear how then freedom of movement is expressed. Such an active migration from a village not covered by the passport system was explained simply: rural residents were still issued on an organized basis, limiting their number to the city’s possibilities for accepting new residents.

“Those who wish to study at a vocational school, go to college,“ make a military career, ”work at newly established enterprises, etc. passports still issued. There was a certain problem “just moving to the city” - for two reasons, and both depended not on the availability of a passport, but on the presence of a residence permit institute. The state considered it its duty to provide every person with housing and a workplace. The workplace, moreover, required a certain qualification (and here anyone could improve their skills in a school or university, there were no restrictions).
Where without work and housing go "just arrived", without qualifications and education?

It is important to emphasize that, apart from the objective restrictions on the capacity of housing and industry in the cities, a Soviet citizen was completely free to choose his place of residence. He could not only move from a city to a village within a region or even a republic, but freely moved throughout the Union. This reflects in particular the statistics of the migration balance of the RSFSR.

1951-1955 - 670 thousand people
1956-1960 - -783 t. H.
1976-1980 - 607 t. H.
1981-1985 - 869 t. H.
1986-1991 - 1110 t. H.

For example, in the 1980s, the proportion of the population that changed their place of residence during the year was 5-6% in the USSR. In 1998, it was in Russia –1,4%, in Hungary - 4%, in Switzerland - 6,1% in Australia - 7,9%. 7)
Thus, it should be recognized that the level of mobility of the population in the Soviet Union, despite the often mentioned geographic limitations of issuing passports, was higher than the current Russian and corresponded to the world average, not being too high or too low.

PS Study the history in archives, not in delirious articles.

Sources: Resolution of the USSR Council of Ministers on 28 in August 1974 No. 677 “On the approval of the passport system in the USSR” Historical background on the evolution of the Soviet population registration system according to K. Lyubarsky Passport system and propiska system in the USSR
Zh. A. Zayonchkovskaya Internal migration in Russia and the USSR in the XX century as a reflection of social modernization / World Russia. T. VIII, No. 4, 1999. C. 27.
V.A. Iontsev, A.N. Kamensky International migration of population in Russia: lessons of Cairo / International migration of population. Russia and the modern world. 12 release. M .: MAKSS-Press, 2004. S. 13.Y. Andrienko, S. Guriev Geographic Mobility of the Population in Russia / Employment Service, October, 2005.

[naidas]

Quote: Cheslav Czursky

that God forbid if those like you come to power!

Or maybe they are needed, for which something is needed from life, not just for themselves, but for everyone.
Well, for example, another one of the same Poklonskaya.

[Stas157]

Quote: Bull Terrier

By the way, I didn’t capture anything from you. everything in my life is earned by honest work. and figs I'll give it to someone even for the loudest slogans)

Who needs your "palace" and your unfortunate belongings! Are you an oligarch or what? What do you think of yourself there ?? Stay and live in your own shack. Nobody is interested in you.
You identify yourself incorrectly; oligarchs do not live in multi-unit slums.

[Bull Terrier]

What are you? I, like me, robbed everyone here))) and you reveal my secrets))) be afraid of the anger of ardent supporters of all and take everything from everyone for the benefit of the people)))))) I don’t have a palace of course) and I like the oligarch to the moon) but I’m lying if I say that I don’t want more) and I said all about my personally) what do I think of myself? do you mind if I had something mine?)

[Boris55]

Quote: Bull Terrier

By the way, I didn’t capture anything from you. everything in my life is earned by honest work. and figs I’ll give it to anyone even for the loudest slogans

If you wish, you will not only give it up yourself, but you will also beg to be taken to be taken away.

Let me explain.

There were a lot of "hacienda" Muscovites in the Moscow region and many of them were abandoned. To seize these lands, the people were deprived of privileges for travel on electric trains and the tax on land was raised. Most of them ran to get rid of unnecessary encumbrances. Sleight of hand lawmakers and no fraud.

[Bull Terrier]

assets must be managed) although of course you can plunge into such a thing)

[Pushkar]

Quote: Boris55

There were a lot of "hacienda" Muscovites in the Moscow region and many of them were abandoned. To seize these lands, the people were deprived of privileges for travel on electric trains and the tax on land was raised. Most of them ran to get rid of unnecessary encumbrances. Sleight of hand lawmakers and no fraud.

I live in the suburbs, but I have not heard of this. On the contrary, land in the Moscow region is only growing in price. "So, the cost of one hundred square meters fluctuates around $ 8000-12000 with a distance of 30-40 km from the Moscow Ring Road. The price depends largely on the proximity of the highway, the infrastructure of the village, the location of the site (land near a river, lake or forest is more expensive, sometimes - much)." https://www.kp.ru/guide/zemlja-v-podmoskov-e.html

[Boris55]

Quote: Pushkar

I live in the suburbs, but have not heard of this.

This was at the very beginning of perestroika.

[Pushkar]

Quote: Boris55

Quote: Pushkar

I live in the suburbs, but have not heard of this.

This was at the very beginning of perestroika.

At the very beginning of perestroika, there was neither land ownership nor taxes on it. Yes, and I do not remember a sharp increase in the prices for the train, on the contrary, there were privileges, which are not available now.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Bull Terrier

everything in my life is earned by honest work.

Oh well. Where do you work, honest hard worker?

[Bull Terrier]

what do you care? ))) I manage the branch of one large company) until that time I served in the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. still have questions? and poke your friends. I'm not going to join them.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Bull Terrier

and poke your friends. I'm not going to join them.

And I'm with people like you on the same field and will not sit down.

[Bull Terrier]

Yes, I'm in the field and do not sit down so the question is closed) I prefer to do this in a civilized way)

[Pushkar]

Quote: mordvin xnumx

And I'm with people like you on the same field and will not sit down.

Clear. That’s all you can do.

[Alber]

Quote: Bull Terrier

what do you care? ))) I manage the branch of one large company) until that time I served in the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. still have questions? and poke your friends. I'm not going to join them.

I found him in the Ministry of Defense, quit, bought a company for the stolen grandmother and runs it. Like all grabbers

[Bull Terrier]

What are you?)))) I’ve gotten straight?) yes, you old man dreamer)))) there you can only grab gray hair)))

[Okolotochny]

My advice to you is when you write like this, then apply the screen of the application to the RF IC. Otherwise, you wrote FALSE. A person without evidence was slandered.

[Bull Terrier]

spit) let scribbles. as my dad said, you are tormented by every mosquito. buy a spray))))))

[Vadim237]

I fully support - we have developed too much, lovers of freebies.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Vadim237

I fully support - we have developed too much, lovers of freebies.

Who themselves, the bourgeois of New Russia? You sit on the neck of the working class, and even boast that you have accumulated a pension for 500 years ahead.

[Vadim237]

In the first place, I don’t take anything from the working people, but I give work, my workers are happy with everything, and secondly, I pay taxes, invest and play on the global stock exchange. The working people have a choice - whether they are working for someone else, or working for themselves - they create their own business, there is no serfdom - all free "planes" of life's flight, each has its own steering wheel, where it turns, and will fly there.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Vadim237

In the first place, I don’t take anything from the working people, but I give work, my workers are happy with everything, and secondly, I pay taxes, invest and play on the world exchange.

Uh-huh, my cousin is the same. I bought several apartments myself, and is building a hut with a swimming pool. I ask him: "Igor, how long will it take your hard workers to save up for an apartment?" And that has nothing to say in response. Mumbles something inarticulate just like you, that the workers are happy with everything.

[Tashkent citizen]

In the first place, I don’t take anything from the working people, but I give work, my workers are happy with everything, and secondly, I pay taxes, invest and play on the world exchange.

Uh-huh, my cousin is the same. I bought several apartments myself, and is building a hut with a swimming pool. I ask him: "Igor, how long will it take your hard workers to save up for an apartment?" And that has nothing to say in response. Mumbles something inarticulate just like you, that the workers are happy with everything.

That's for sure. I myself know about 30 such employers. They have a salary of x-ray per month, the whole planet at the expense of the company flew around. And if the workers have $ 300 a month, then it’s already a joy.

[Vadim237]

For CNC machinists - 130000 plus bonuses, mechanics for fitters, from 90000 to 200000 a month can come out, for a welder-argon gunner as much as for a mechanic.

[Bull Terrier]

he doesn't moo. he simply has nothing to answer stupid questions) something prevents the workers from going to get an education and changing their lives?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Bull Terrier

he doesn't moo. he simply has nothing to answer stupid questions) something prevents the workers from going to get an education and changing their lives?

And who will work, wise guy?

[Bull Terrier]

Well then, let them sit and wait when they accumulate) but in general, the turnover of the lower level is a common thing. brother has a team of masons. all Russians. you hire them FIG) they have work for the year ahead. pros. get a lot. work smartly. in everything you can develop. in any field. education is not only institutions. this is an increase in their qualities at the professional level.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Bull Terrier

brother has a team of masons. all Russians. you hire them FIG)

But I don’t need this. I do everything myself. And I’m not afraid that my gas leak will happen, or the wiring will catch fire, because I know how to check and calculate. But my dad hired one such master-scraper, to connect the machine, so this darn condom did not take out the transport bolts. Mom started up the car and got fucked. I had to finish for this hoopoe. So I’ll manage without your management, since childhood I have been doing everything myself.

[Bull Terrier]

Well, this is sales) everyone has their own skills, the point is that. you can one I another another third. the only difference is how you use it) so I don’t get into cars and household appliances) there are pros for this)

[Skarpzd]

from personal ... I also do everything myself. accustomed and taught. since childhood. it just so happened that by 40 with a penny he was left without teeth. apparently on the paternal side so. all on the other side are toothless))). and last spring they made me new dentures (the old ones were worn out). the specialists are very good and the prostheses are cool and very expensive. the woman who made them is very responsible. and special is excellent. I immediately warned that for some time there may be discomfort and at least 6 fit ahead. okay. I understand it. calls, Uncle Zhen says. I'm going on vacation, for a couple of weeks, will you tolerate? I sighed, I will tolerate. and as a sin the bosses and I drove 10 days off. and the dentures rub incredibly. and I decided ... took a cutter, sanding paper. Well, I process those prosthetic places that seemed to me to be the cause of my torment. my neighbor comes into the garage, a young man of 27 years old and his eyes .... he had to see))) Uncle Zhenya, says you even know how ??? Antokh, I say, a real man should be able to not only knock out teeth, but also insert))) then neighing the final and then I heard enough about these prostheses ... when they brought them back to normal ...

[Vadim237]

Well, definitely not you. Since the pension.

[Vadim237]

At least staff turnover neither in production nor in the transport company or car services - no.

[Machito]

Lying has become one of the tools of governing the country. This is not even propaganda. Management stupidly lies to higher authorities and people to justify their incompetence. Everywhere. Everyday. Fake reality.

[your1970]

Quote: tatra

You do not get out in the cowardly style of the enemies of the Communists-defend yourself through an attack on others. You have ALL lies, including the fact that you falsified the history of your country for the benefit of your anti-Soviet rule to justify your capture of the USSR

"But there are things that do not even raise questions. Any boss today performs his duties well. The superior boss praises him. At ceremonial meetings, subordinates tell how, under strict guidance, they achieve permanent labor victories and successes. True, this always lasts a certain period of time.
Then comes another boss, and we suddenly discover that the old one, pastarAlil everything and everything. And the organization, the firm, the enterprise, instead of constantly winning, constantly lags behind. Those same members of the public, with tears in their eyes, are already talking about the problems they raised, and the former boss dismissed them like annoying flies. "
Remind ALL times of the USSR-
Trotsky was first
first, "Under the leadership of our People's Commissariat for Military Affairs, we will defeat the Entente" - then the word "Trotskyist" became a sentence
then Stalin
first "For the Motherland! For Stalin !! Hurray !!" - then oops - "Cult of personality !!"
then Khrushchev
first "Dear Nikita Sergeevich" - then clap - "Voluntarist"
then Brezhnev
first "Dear Leonid Ilyich !!" - then fuck- "Stagnation, 4 times GSS and the Order of Victory ....."
then a pair of quick-spreading-not marked-did not have time
then Gorbachev
first "Perestroika / Glasnost / Acceleration" - then oops "Marked Bear"

in my opinion - so word for word .......... and EACH the next one said that he would definitely lead, catch up and overtake ....

[your1970]

three minusers apparently NOT remember official the results - the lawsuits of 30, then the 20 congress, then the documents on the removal of Khrushchev ... and each time the next one said that the previous one had done everything wrong

[stalki]

and then you are surprised that the Soviet word turns everyone out)))

Apparently it turns you up, speak only for yourself.

[tank64rus]

Novodvorskaya, Gref, Chubais and the list to continue ...

[Bull Terrier]

I'm not from their sandbox) and I repeat, the point is in the words of a particular person and their presentation. slogans got out. Is it normal to say that party affiliations interfere? The enemies of the Communists ... captured the USSR ...

[NordUral]

Do not generalize Bull Terrier, you are not so many.

[LIB]

Turns out all the criminals.

[Olgovich]

Quote: tatra

Compared with the enemies of Soviet power, the Soviet Communists and their supporters are examples of honesty.

You without chatter specifically, give examples of "honesty" Soviet communists in these cases:

- about hunger and mass starvation mortality in 1933, 47 g,,
- the number of dispossessed, exiled, deceased in exile peasants and their children,
- the number of executed and deported in 36-39 years,
about the losses of the Second World War.

Start point by point, wait

[Gardamir]

about hunger and mass starvation in 1933, 47

Ek, you skidded. And let's talk about the communists

[Olgovich]

Quote: Gardamir

Ek, you skidded. And let's talk about the communists

Answer the presented points.
Weak, yes ....

[Gardamir]

Weak, yes ..

Aren't you tired of it yourself? We live here and now. Living with hatred of the past is stupid.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Gardamir

Weak, yes ..
Aren't you tired of it yourself? We live here and now. Living with hatred of the past is stupid.

the past cannot be hated.
You hate the present.

You are not able to answer the questions asked about the "honesty" of your favorite time. It is understandable, it is impossible

Then answer when at least once at that time they told the TRUTH.

[Gardamir]

You are not able to answer.

Start with yourself. Answer my questions. The past has gone, even the very happy, why live memories. Love the present? All these explosions, fires? Is it enchanting, please understand? From the high stands they say the state owes you nothing. And then there were hires on the sites, and what did you do for the state.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Gardamir

Start with yourself. Answer my questions. The past has gone, even the very happy, why live memories. Love the present? All these explosions, fires? Is it enchanting, please understand?

I will answer: love unconditionally and try to make it better.
Fires silenced Chernobyl -love more?

Quote: Gardamir

From the high stands they say the state owes you nothing. And then there were hires on the sites, and what did you do for the state.

The state is us. No one flew from Mars.

[Gardamir]

Chernobyl disaster

Either you are exiled to say about the current government, or you love it.

[Olgovich]

Quote: Gardamir

Whether you piss say

In Russian kindly say: I do not understand jargon.

[BAI]

Aren't you tired of it yourself? We live here and now. Living with hatred for the past is stupid

“Who spits on the past, the future executes”

- and M. Zadornov is absolutely right.

[Consultant]

Quote: BAI

and M. Zadornov is absolutely right

And long before he was right Mikhail Lomonosovwho said, in general, the same thing:

A nation that does not know or has forgotten its past has no future

And beneath him - do not believe me, he was just as right Plato (this is not some toll road, but another, ancient).

Why, how

[BAI]

Spit in the past and remember the past - 2 very big differences.

[Consultant]

Quote: BAI

Spit in the past and remember passede - 2 very big differences

It's hard to argue with that. But do not care about (in) the past, and do not remember the past - practically, synonyms. Meaning, at least, not too respectful for this past attitude. Feel the difference, as they say.

What Lomonosov said (and in front of him, presumably Plato) is somewhat wider than the statement that you quoted here. In order not to have a future, it is enough not to remember the past. At the same time, it is not necessary to spit on him at all. That's all.

Quote: BAI

2 very big differences

The difference, by the way, is still the same. Between two expressions. Just like the distance between two points is also one.

T.N. "Odessa humor" is somewhat inappropriate here, IMHO.

[BAI]

But do not care about (in) the past, and do not remember the past - in practice, synonyms.

I do not see any synonyms.

[Consultant]

Quote: BAI

I do not see...

My condolences

[Alber]

Quote: Consultant

Plato was just as right (this is not some toll road, but another, ancient).

Yeah, Plato is my friend, but Truth is dearer!

[Observer2014]

Gardamir

And let's talk about the communists

Here is what you have published! They are pious people, splendid and exclusively breaking with the totalitarian past.
Well, or torn to pieces this is the brightest past

[your1970]

Quote: Gardamir

And let's talk about the communists

let's !!!
Just answer for a start - who took to the party and who gave recommendations to all the people you named ??? !!!!!!!
Judging by your screech, apparently not otherwise - how damned American spies sent to ruin the USSR
28 * 4 (2 recommendations + 1 secretary of primarys + 1 his deputy) = 112 to potential American spies at least .... and even in half the cases sent back to 1960 — those who were accepted to the party in 60-70 .. .

[solzh]

Olgovich, I’m watching you without treacherous white-emigrant propaganda. If only they would write something new, we have already heard these myths, this is not serious. All the myths you quoted about mass executions, about mass hunger have long been refuted. And about the losses in the Great Patriotic War, you should know that about 20 million dead people were civilians and the White Guards are also guilty of their death, besides the Nazis and Nazis.

[Olgovich]

Quote: solzh

Olgovich, I’m watching you without treacherous white-emigrant propaganda. If only they would write something new, we have already heard these myths, this is not serious. All the myths you quoted about mass executions, about mass hunger have long been refuted.

Your lied that there was no hunger 33 g in general. They lied that even the poor became .... wealthy people in 33, you, respectively, a liar.

Quote: solzh

And about the losses in the Great Patriotic War

About losses in the Second World War lied to the people all decades of power after the Second World War.
This attitude towards the people is nothing but wild. You liked that attitude, but normal people don't.

[solzh]

Quote: Olgovich

You, respectively, are a liar.

When you have nothing to answer to your opponent’s comment, you immediately blame any person for lying.
You are kind of an adult, educated person, but you behave like a true monarchist-entheist ...

[Olgovich]

Quote: solzh

When you have nothing to answer to your opponent’s comment, you immediately blame any person for lying.

You are answered SPECIFICALLY on a specific fact.
You have a void of common words

Quote: solzh

You are kind of an adult, educated person, but you behave like a true monarchist-entheist ..

What are the shortcuts for? QUESTIONS are discussed, not who and what ....

[solzh]

Quote: Olgovich

You have a void of common words

The void of words was in your comment.

Quote: Olgovich

What are the shortcuts for? QUESTIONS are discussed, not who and what ....

That's it, that they discuss issues, and do not accuse others of something like you. Have I accused you of something? No. I just said that you are behaving like: "a true ENTES monarchist." That is, otherwise, it would sound like this:
"You are repeating the anti-Soviet propaganda invented by the gentlemen from the Third Reich and by white emigrants from different ROVS and NTS, supported by NATO and the European Union."
Are you not a monarchist or are you hiding your political views? I am a Stalinist, I consider myself a supporter of the Bolsheviks and are not hiding this.
Maybe I called you a liar?

Quote: Olgovich

You, respectively, are a liar.

[Olgovich]

Quote: solzh

The void of words was in your comment.

Again lying: given the facts of the communes. lies about hunger. You answered-voidYY

Quote: solzh

That's it, that they discuss issues, and do not accuse others of something like you. Have I accused you of something? No. I just said that you are behaving like: "a true ENTES monarchist." That is, otherwise, it would sound like this:
"You are repeating the anti-Soviet propaganda invented by the gentlemen from the Third Reich and by white emigrants from different ROVS and NTS, supported by NATO and the European Union."
Are you not a monarchist or are you hiding your political views? I am a Stalinist, I consider myself a supporter of the Bolsheviks and are not hiding this.

I brought the FACTS of lies. Undeniable.
Hitler propagandized vegetarianism, but that does not oblige me therefore to hate vegetarianism.
I am not a monarchist. I am for the will of the people: as he decides, so be it.

Maybe I called you a liar?

You cannot, for I have not lied.
And you, alas.

[solzh]

Quote: Olgovich

for I did not lie.
And you, alas.

In the comment above, I called you "Adult educated man" ...
I apologize, I was wrong.

[Olgovich]

Quote: solzh

In the comment above, I called you "Adult educated man" ...
I apologize, I was wrong.

You did not answer the questions. Failed.

[naidas]

And how Olgovich lied, calling the right-wing newspapers leftist when they wrote about the famine in Romania, and truthful when about the famine in the USSR.
And how Olgovich lied when he attributed the scientists who took place in the USSR as scientists to RI, but could not bring any of their work.
Is it interesting that Olgovich lied when he was glad that WWII veterans won in Germany, such as Rem, for example, and a Nazi party was created on the basis of these veterans?

[Olgovich]

Quote: naidas

And how Olgovich lied, calling the right-wing newspapers leftist when they wrote about the famine in Romania, and truthful when about the famine in the USSR.

He wrote the facts: in Bessarabia, there was no such famine, like ours, and there are no documents at all. Therefore, tens of thousands of peasants fled from MASSR to Bessarabia. Just remember that.

Quote: naidas

And how Olgovich lied when he attributed the scientists who took place in the USSR as scientists to RI, but could not bring any of their work.

You're lying. Vernadsky, Ioffe, Mysovsky, Khlopin, took place at KI scientists at the Republic of Ingushetia.

Quote: naidas

Is it interesting that Olgovich lied when he was glad that WWII veterans won in Germany, such as Rem, for example, and a Nazi party was created on the basis of these veterans?

Learn history first: who created what: the founder of the Nazi party A. Drexler was never at the front. Like the historian Jung, who gave her the name NSDAP.

[naidas]

Olgovich, the big bourgeois newspaper "Dimineatsa" and the Black-Hundred newspaper "Bessarabskaya Pochta" which you call leftist wrote popularly about this.
Well, yes, in 1932, Romanian Bessarabia lost 500 thousand population, and Soviet Bessarabia 20 thousand. (See statistics) -Olgovich again .....
Ioffe, Mysovsky, Khlopin, took place as scientists at the RI — everyone’s scientific works at the RI in the studio, if not a liar. Yes, and don’t forget to indicate which university Kurchatov graduated from born in 1903, in which year he graduated, is very interesting.
Learn history, Ernst Julius Gunter Röhm, one of the leaders of the National Socialists and leader, participant in the First World War, in the spring of 1919 participated in the defeat of the Bavarian Soviet Republic as part of the F. Von Epp volunteer corps, in 1920, replacing Karl Mayr as head of department propaganda of the IV military district, met Hitler and became one of the first members of the NSDAP.
And here is your Drexler, gave the name of the party in the pub and for 10 years it was not:
In the Beer Coup of 1923, Drexler did not participate. Since 1923, after the party was banned, Drexler was a member of the People’s Bloc; in 1924-1928 he was elected to the Bavarian Landtag. After the resumption of party activities in 1925, he did not take part in its activities, and after the Nazis came to power in 1933, he again joined the party.

[Saburov]

Quote: Olgovich

Without chattering, specifically, give examples of the "honesty" of the Soviet Communists in these cases: Start point by point, we are waiting

Can you argue with Olgovich? We already had a precedent for your monarchy bullshit. Only here are no documents and facts, you could not bring. We limited ourselves to fantasies from dubious sources such as monarchy.ru.

Quote: Olgovich

about hunger and mass starvation in 1933, 47

Now let us turn not to your sick fantasies, but to the demographics of the Republic of Ingushetia and the USSR over the years with links to the archive. (census results, figures are rounded for convenience)

1926 - 148 656 000 people the USSR
1937 - 163 800 000 people the USSR
1939 - 170 557 000 people the USSR
1941 - 195 222 000 people the USSR
1946 - 172 000 000 people the USSR
1959 - 208,800 000 people the USSR
1970 - 241 720 000 people the USSR
1989 - 286 700 000 people the USSR
1991 - 293 047 571 people the USSR

As we see, the largest population growth was in the Stalin era.

Sources: Population. Encyclopedic Dictionary. - M.: Big Russian Encyclopedia, 1994, Demographic Yearbook of the USSR. (Annual statistical compilation). - M., Goskomstat of the USSR., S.P. Kapitsa. How many people lived, live and will live on earth, S.I. Brook. The population of the world. Ethnodemographic reference 2 edition. Re-worker. and add. M .: Science, 1986.

Quote: Olgovich

the number of dispossessed, exiled, deceased in exile peasants and their children

And Stalin personally "ate" babies for dinner! How did you forget to say this?

If you do not know, then the children of the convicted were sent to the orphanage. And they had equal rights with everyone upon reaching adulthood. The document is attached.

February 2 1930 year was issued the order of the OGPU USSR No. 44 / 21. It stated that "in order to organize the elimination of the kulaks as a class and to decisively suppress all attempts by the kulaks to counteract the Soviet government’s efforts to socialist reconstruction of agriculture - primarily in areas of continuous collectivization - in the very near future, the kulak, especially its rich and the active counter-revolutionary part, a crushing blow must be dealt. "

The order provided for:

Immediate liquidation of the “counter-revolutionary kulak asset”, especially the “cadres of existing counter-revolutionary and rebel organizations and groups” and the “most malicious, terry loners” - that is, the first category to which were assigned:
Fists are the most active, opposing and frustrating measures of the party and the authorities in the socialist reconstruction of the economy; fists fleeing from areas of permanent residence and going underground, especially those associated with active White Guards;
Fists - active White Guards, rebels; former white officers, repatriates, showing counter-revolutionary activity, especially of an organized order;
Fists are active members of church councils, all kinds of religious communities and groups, "actively manifesting themselves."
The kulaks are the richest, moneylenders, speculators, destroying their farms, former landowners and large landowners.
Families of those arrested, imprisoned in a concentration camp, or sentenced to be shot were to be expelled to the northern regions of the USSR, along with their fists evicted during the mass campaign and their families, “taking into account the presence of the able-bodied family and the degree of social danger of these families.”

From the help From the help of the 4 spec. Department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR // Communist. 1991. N 3. C. 101. The figure appears in 1 317 000 dispossessed. Although the May 24 1934 CEC of the USSR adopted a resolution "On the procedure for the restoration of the civil rights of former kulaks," according to which fists, special settlers, previously deprived of a number of civil rights, were individually restored in them. All the fists who were convicted were listed on the 58 article and its items.

Quote: Olgovich

about the number of people executed and exiled in 36-39

There is only one document about this, Report to Khrushchev for 1953 year. This is even your favorite Zemskov confirmed.

Quote: Olgovich

about the losses of the Second World War.

What's wrong there? Have you found the new 100 million? Or start stories about "filled up" with corpses?

The most famous and cultivated myth of the Great Patriotic War is the myth that the victory was achieved at the cost of enormous and unjustified losses, simply put, they defeated the “corpses” of the enemy. Allegedly, the command of the Red Army and Steel personally did not take into account losses, moreover, the more losses there were, the more orders and awards were received by military leaders. The ratio of the Wehrmacht to the Red Army is approximately 1: 1,5, if we take into account the troops of the allies of Germany (Romania, Hungary, Finland, Italy, etc.), the various SS volunteer units that fought against the USSR, this ratio will change to 1: 1,2 . Throwing corpses, in this situation, is impossible purely mathematically.

According to the official version of the RF Armed Forces, the irretrievable military losses of the USSR amount to 11 444 100 people, military personnel died from this - 8 668 400 people (6 818 300 soldiers died in battles, hospitals and other incidents, and 1 850 100 people weren’t returned) , civilian losses in the occupation zone - 13 684 700 people (of which: deliberately killed - 7 420 400 people, died in forced labor in Germany - 2 164 300 people, died of starvation, disease and lack of medical care - 4 100 000 people ) In 2015, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation announced the following data: irretrievable military losses - about 12 000 000 people, total casualties of the country (USSR) - military personnel and civilians - 26 600 000 people. Material losses of the USSR amounted to about 30% of all national wealth.

According to the results of the RF Armed Forces commission, the irretrievable losses of the Wehrmacht, SS troops and other military units of the Third Reich, operating on the Soviet-German front, amounted to 7 181 100 people. The irretrievable losses of the troops of the allies of the Third Reich amounted to a total of 1 468 145 people. The number of dead soldiers is 4 270 700 and 806 000 people, respectively. The total demographic losses of Germany, Hungary, Italy, Romania, Finland and Slovakia amounted to 11 900 000 people.

The irretrievable losses of the armed forces of the USSR and the Axis countries on the Eastern Front are 11 444 100 and 8 649 200 people, respectively. The loss ratio is approximately 1,3: 1 or less. With almost the same number of prisoners of war during the war years (4 559 000 Soviet soldiers and 4 376 300 German soldiers), 86,5%, or 3 787 000 soldiers returned from Soviet captivity, 44,2%, or 2 016 000 XNUMX soldiers from German.

In general, it is still necessary to calculate who and whom heaped up with corpses. The act of calculating the losses of German and Hungarian troops when trying to break out of the "boiler" near Budapest.

Document.

PS And now Olgovich, let's turn on your "agitation"! Just mindful of links to archival photos and documents. With signature stamp and archival register! As you put it: No chatter!

[Vadim237]

Well, yes, the Communists are the direct standard of honesty, there is complete silence about the accident: Lighthouse, Chizhma Bay, Chernobyl, Kraton 5, Globus 1 - it’s great for the witnesses to shut up and everything is blooming, everything smells, but this story is generally the apotheosis of Soviet honesty, openness and justice to its

[Alber]

Quote: tatra

Compared with the enemies of Soviet power, the Soviet Communists and their supporters are examples of honesty. The enemies of the Communists, who brazenly, defiantly, lied under the Soviet regime, and especially after the capture of the USSR by them. And the basis of their ideology, and to justify their capture of the USSR, and after that is total lie and cowardice, eternal blaming on others of guilt and responsibility for what they themselves have done with their country and people.

The current one is lying like breathing ...

[Vadim237]

At least it’s not hiding anything.

[Titsen]

Quote: tatra

Soviet communists and their supporters are examples of honesty. The enemies of the Communists, who brazenly, defiantly, lied under the Soviet regime, and especially after the capture of the USSR by them. And the basis of their ideology, and to justify their capture of the USSR, and after that is total lie and cowardice, eternal blaming on others for guilt and responsibility for what they themselves have done with their country and people.

What did you mean?

[210ox]

No, the Soviet government often did not say anything. Neither truth nor lie. Especially when there were great tragedies.

[Bull Terrier]

which is basically the same lie.

[Reptiloid]

All these polls have their own customer, respectively, and the answers are formed.

[Olgovich]

Quote: 210ox

No, the Soviet government often did not say anything. Neither truth nor lie. Especially when there were great tragedies.

She said: when millions of peasants died of hunger in 1933, she said in the same year that they became .... "wealthy people

When people in Kiev went to the demonstration on May 1, 86 g with their children (Chernobyl raged with might and main), she lied that everything was fine.

Etc.

[Gardamir]

The Soviet government often did not say anything.

What did the current government tell at least about the situation in Magnitogorsk? All from the series "she drowned".

[astronom1973n]

Quote: Gardamir

The Soviet government often did not say anything.
What did the current government tell at least about the situation in Magnitogorsk? All from the series "she drowned".

And what is it for you? Gossip? Or do you want to provide help? What will change from the fact that you are told the truth. The main thing in the situation is that people died, this is a tragedy. And as a result, they will figure it out without you and the rest of us, we are in this business not "experts". And conclusions must be drawn in the direction of preventing such cases.

[Gardamir]

Why do you need this? Gossip?

Why do you need to troll? You copied completely, which is unclear there. Soviet power didn’t say anything. Judge everyone equally.

[astronom1973n]

So I am writing to you: "Why do you need to know this? For what? For what purposes? Cognitive, developing? Why? To reduce gossip?"

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: astronom1973n

So I am writing to you: "Why do you need to know this? For what? For what purposes? Cognitive, developing? Why? To reduce gossip?"

And to find out whether odorants are added to the gas, or not?

[pru-pavel]

Right now, about the same. Only tragedies were replaced by protests in Russia. However, then they were also hushed up in the same way, even stronger.

[depressant]

Not about high matters.
In my village there is an IFC — an organization that provides a person with the necessary papers, and therefore, the right one. When it arose, everyone was happy, as the need to travel to the area disappeared. Crowds of people visited her.
A year has passed ...
There is an MFC, but there is no activity: "We are working on issuance, draw up papers in the area!" People in the district are surprised: "Why have you arrived? You have an MFC!" There is. Only does not work even for the issuance of papers issued in the region. And it is not liquidated. Deals with excuses: For you, the "answer" from the area did not come. There are workers, no activity. This is exactly how the presidential representation in the region works - nothing is decided! "Well, you understand - this is not in our competence!" Then I have a counter question: in whose competence is the country?!?

[Bull Terrier]

But just make everything through an Internet? Once register through public services and use all that is necessary. from an appointment with a doctor to a passport.

[depressant]

Obviously, you, Bull Terrier, did not understand what I mean. It was a parable about how everything works for us. From the opposite, it works. And as for the Internet - there are many people for whom the Internet is straining. Some of the issues can be resolved only in the process of human-human dialogue. By the way, such a dialogue is practiced all over the world, which seems to be not backward. But, I repeat, I was not talking about that. I talked about the slipping of the state mechanism at all levels, about idling, which is becoming more and more obvious. The rating of his activity is zero.

[Bull Terrier]

I do not know. I have no complaints about this structure. There are many, but this one is not. Dialogues are a waste of time for unnecessary chatter. not so long ago I lost two hours of my life in the military enlistment office to the fact that without a human factor it can be solved in 15 minutes. but there they decided to give me a lecture and even calling some people from other departments, although it was just necessary to accept documents and draw up. To my question, why do I need to say all this, I received the answer that I killed, you should know that. I opened a page for them in Google where you can read all this without boring speeches. idling is exactly where people are sitting at what more often than others such as you describe, strain them to learn modern tools. and so in everything. deer. too lazy to learn. too lazy to comprehend the new. too lazy to try to change. and very often that laziness is one excuse, do I need it?

[astronom1973n]

Quote: depressant

There is an MFC, but there is no activity: "We are working on issuance, draw up papers in the area!"

But in our city of Kemerovo everything works fine and without problems. You would write where you came from. And then ... balabolstvo!

[Skarpzd]

Yes, and in the area (Mariinsk) there are no questions on the work of the MFC. everything is clear and fast. and no need to dangle in different offices.

[major147]

Quote: Bull Terrier

that's for sure))) The Soviet government spoke only the truth and that's it))) you made my day)

One general "approval" of what it cost!

[Altona]

Quote: Bull Terrier

that's for sure))) The Soviet government spoke only the truth and that's it))) you made my day)

----------------------------
Under Soviet rule, people at least hoped for something and believed in the best. Today from the screen of federal channels such a furious terry lie is pouring that ears are curled up. And at the sight of first persons, people spit and switch channels.

[Consultant]

Quote: Altona

Under Soviet rule, people at least hoped for something and believed in the best

So in the end, this power arranged for us ... well, what we have now.

To trust the authorities is not necessary. It would be good to control her.

And if with the first now just basically everything is in order, but with the second - not very

[Altona]

Quote: Consultant

well, what we have now.

--------------------------
I wish you happiness, Roman, success, all the best, to you and your family in the New Year.

[Consultant]

Quote: Altona

I wish you happiness ...

Mutually. But this, however, is not the answer to the question.

Yes, I'm a bore, I know. The specifics of the work, you know)))

[Altona]

Quote: Consultant

Mutually. But this, however, is not the answer to the question.

---------------------
Well today is not the day to answer questions.))

[Consultant]

Quote: Altona

today is not the day to answer questions

This is how someone. I was pulled out of a hospital yesterday to work. Everything broke in the New Year, they didn’t give their health, to fix it)))

[Altona]

Quote: Consultant

This is how someone. I was pulled out of a hospital yesterday to work. Everything broke in the New Year, they didn’t give their health, to fix it)))

-------------------
We have been working since the 3rd. Three days worked.

[Comrade Beria]

Quote: Altona

Under Soviet rule, people at least hoped for something and believed in the best.

Yes. In communism by 1980, promised by Khrushchev. To the apartment of every family by 2000, promised by Gorbachev. They believed in the Brezhnev Food Program, land reclamation, that one day they would wake up and would not have to go to Moscow for sausage. Yes, they believed a lot.

[Altona]

Quote: Comrade Beria

Yes, they believed a lot.

--------------------
There was work, education, vacation packages, a hostel, a life program for 20 years. And for free.

[Cheslav Tsursky]

Eugene, I've already told you and I'll tell you again - why are you always broadcasting from the people, then from people ?! Who authorized you then ah? Well, if my wife asked, then I understand you can say - me and my wife are sick of power! You can put children in a corner so that they feel sick too! Of course, you can also bring up in this way! And from the people, i.e. people of citizens of Russia why did you take the right to rant here? Are you a propagandist? Walk in the evenings and switch TVs at neighbors? What did you hope for under Soviet power? That after 2 hours of the queue of sausages with ham you will take a can of condensed milk? Did you believe in communism? Of course I don’t know. Maybe you even believed that Lenin was always alive? My five-year-old son recently asks me - dad, but really we have such a house where children can come and look at a dead person ??? I immediately understood what he was talking about. I saw it on TV. And I remembered, after all, they really took the kids to look at the mummy! We drove the classes! It was scary! Horror in general! And everywhere - Lenin, the Party, the Komsomol, Glory to Labor, Glory to the CPSU and Lenin, the great way illuminated our path ... What else is there ?! Well, we will support all sorts of blacks and everywhere it goes by itself! And themselves ?! All scarcity and luxury, all by pull and a plumber for three rubles! With the exception of the Georgians with the Balts and others like them ... so they lived under developed socialism though at the expense of Russians and Belarusians ... Apparently some were Great Russian chauvinists. and the latter are somewhere nearby! Shortened to make amends for the "brotherly" peoples and other Bulgaro-Poles!

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Cheslav Czursky

After the 2 hours of the queue of sausages with ham, take a can of condensed milk?

Quote: Cheslav Czursky

I have a five year old son

How old are you?

[Cheslav Tsursky]

It’s enough to insist in the boy’s lines and have a five-year-old son now. If you are interested, I still have a daughter, 21, and a son, 28. Is something wrong?

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Cheslav Czursky

Is there something wrong?

I’m just wondering if you remember the times, say Brezhnev, where there weren’t any particular lines. But now there is a shortage of jobs, a general bitterness when, instead of helping a person, they begin to take it off on a cell phone and upload it to YouTube with taunts.

[Cheslav Tsursky]

Vladimir, we have no shortage of jobs. We feed the entire former USSR! Not everywhere people can earn enough. This is another matter. And of course I remember the Brezhnev era. "... there were no queues" is a very relative term. I was at the age when boys begin to pay attention to girls ... Well, tell me, my dear, could my parents, not being diplomats, international journalists, party nomenklatura, scientists, trade workers, buy me Adidas sneakers as a simple builder and engineer or jeans? Of course, I was a guy in sneakers at least somewhere but ... I didn’t ask because I imagined how much it costs and that for these gorgeous things my parents had to work together for a month! They even talked about food shortages in Soviet films. Office romance for example remember Shura? What did she brag about there, that DETAILS a duck, a chicken, a goose? So it was precisely such garbage that they got out and defended the queues! Is this really the success of the USSR economy? Why argue if all this was! Will you argue about the impossibility to earn and universal leveling? And not all of our phones now remove human grief. There were still people, even children sacrificing themselves for the sake of others. As before, we have such guys as in the 6th company, 2 battalions of the 104th Guards RPS 76th Guards Airborne Forces. We have the wife of one of the deceased officers of this unit. Putin gathers family and friends every year on the memorial day of their heroic death. So it goes.

[Skarpzd]

Adidas crosses cost 28 rubles in my opinion. cowboy jeans - 48 kind of like. texas or rifly 86. the final was expensive. By the way, Adidas, compared to Romics or Vikings, sucked. although those were cheaper. I made my first jeans (under the strict guidance of my mother) myself at the age of 13 in my opinion. wore not long. increased. for the year from the penultimate place in the ranks on physical education "rose" to the second)). and then he still lived his jackets and trousers. it worked out well.

[Cheslav Tsursky]

If my memory serves me, then 28 rubles is when our people began to do it. Jeans are cheaper than 100 rubles I have not seen at all. This is when the Indian may have appeared? Leah reached 170-200 rubles, Montana or a little cheaper or the same. Yes, all good clothes and shoes cost fabulous money.

[Altona]

Quote: Cheslav Czursky

And from the people i.e. people of Russian citizens why did you take the right to rant here? Are you a propagandist?

----------------------------
Yes, I am a propagandist. I kind of never hid it.

[Cheslav Tsursky]

I do not follow your work, so I asked. I'll know.

[Bull Terrier]

yes that's the trouble of everyone. all hope for something instead of doing something !!! here I’ll increase the salary and live. here the prices will fall and fly. What is the meaning of waiting for a wizard in a blue helicopter? why waste your life on eternal expectation and hope? how can a person develop if he knows that even if he does not receive an education, he will go to the factory and be able to kill more engineer there? Why study for an engineer for 5 years if the worker gets more? how could all this develop society? how can such a society develop if by nature it is impossible? why try if everything is free? The Union was a consumer society. just people consumed the country itself. all. completely and rudely. and a person must balance. to know that if you don’t try, then your life will go down the drain. that you can starve to death if you do not climb up by all means. how can one live like that when there is no call? and now a society where a strong, stubborn smart will be above a lazy stupid and static person. motivation. nothing works without it. I may be a bit harsh in words, but I think the message is clear.

[Pessimist22]

Russian democracy is the kingdom of well-fed pigs.
V.I. Vernadsky

[Consultant]

Quote: Pessimist22

Pessimist22

You and ROSS are not relatives for 42 hours?

[Consultant]

Quote: Pessimist22

Pessimist22

I, in fact, this is what:

[Cheslav Tsursky]

But didn’t they often try to compare Russia with Ukraine? Very interesting trick. Moreover, they compare it so that we seem to be next to the Ukrainian mess of pervasive corruption, the dictatorship of bureaucracy everywhere, catastrophically fleeing the country from the country in light of its impoverished homeland of impoverishment! We’ll not jump here just for some reason yet ... Now, by the way, do men like entering, as it was again allowed? So, I recommend that everyone who thinks so should go on a tourist trip to get acquainted with the situation and so that the Russian Motherland suddenly appears as a paradise on earth! By the way, how many independent citizens we currently feed on?
About "acquaintances who voted in large numbers for another", and who won, sorry to hear already funny and even, as it is a shame! Here I am here absolutely responsibly declare that I have a fairly large social circle and all my friends voted for the one who won! Can you imagine? And so I don’t understand, but why are my acquaintances, friends, comrades, colleagues worse than the circle of friends of the authors who wrote this article? AND? About the VTsIOM polls in the light of identifying the enemies of the Kremlin, I honestly did not understand this is a joke? In VO, the enemies of the Russian government are open, hidden, hesitant, and those who have "work" so simply run around in flocks and sometimes say sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo right that this is not even pluralism - just a caveman's permissiveness! Are the enemies also identified here? Are you sho? And who, then, is the organizer? And the assistants?
But with the fact that "go to an Orthodox church and ask whether the parishioners of the Russian Orthodox Church support there, go to the homeless at the station ..." I fully support the authors! Sincerely, we should try to conduct polls honestly! But when they conduct a poll on VO and compare it with the VTsIOM poll, I immediately want to propose to conduct similar polls on monarchist sites and on other non-leftist orientations! And then compare everything. This will be a little bit honest. Just to blame someone for something, you have to be honest. Well, at least sometimes ...

[SHURUM -BURUM]

A questionnaire with such a wording of the questions posed is an invention of the current reformers. And taking into account that a questionnaire without likes at all can be declared invalid, this is truly a brilliant invention. This questionnaire, as it were, asks to put at least one like, well, at least as alms, otherwise you simply will not take part in the voting. And thanks to well-wishers from a huge array of respondents, one like in the questionnaires, on the whole, the expected-predicted by the authors average statistical positive (and not very bad result) on all the questions posed, however, with the proviso of the poor activity of the respondents, is collected. But the true results of the survey will be completely different if you are asked to put a tick in the event that you are not happy. And then many more respondents will take part in the voting, since I suppose many (including myself) considered it pointless to send the questionnaire of the initial version without any likes at all in case of complete displeasure. I propose to conduct an alternative local questionnaire on the site, where the same questions and questions should be formulated as "Are you dissatisfied with the work ...?". It will be interesting to compare the opinions of those who reflected their own opinions and those who, when putting likes, were guided by mercy.

[Boris55]

Quote: Aerodrome

"power" was Soviet, and under the feudal system there are "masters".

Soviet power was until the 1955 of the year, then it was party power, not much different from the current one, except perhaps in the name of the party: earlier it was the Communist Party, now EP.

[SS-18 Satan]

I'm sure .. Khan Batuy is to blame for everything !!

[viktor_ui]

I'm sure .. Khan Batuy is to blame for everything !! ... BATYGA DZHUCHIEVICH

[Boris Ivanov]

credit of trust of the people is not unlimited. the authorities must remember this.

[ver_]

... they need it? .. remember? ..

[Boris Ivanov]

Bastille, the Winter Palace .. do you think they took Vekselberg and Potanin ??

[major147]

Quote: Boris Ivanov

Bastille, the Winter Palace .. do you think they took Vekselberg and Potanin ??

But with their money (ibn Morozov S.)

[tatra]

Yes, there is no real, adequate, rational trust among the people in this Yeltsin-Putin regime. None of those who are capable of honestly and objectively answering for her - why is he only for her for Russia and the Russian people.

[Bull Terrier]

in general, that is) people want to live. to live well. to receive in this life all that is worthy. try to give children the best in life. and not something that some kind of power will give. capabilities. that’s what your Soviet government cannot give in principle.

[tatra]

Ha, I agree, the Soviet government did not allow the enemies of the Communists to enrich themselves by robbing their country and people.

[Bull Terrier]

what a pity then) I want to cry straight from emotion)

[Serg65]

Quote: tatra

Soviet power did not allow the enemies of the Communists to enrich themselves by robbing their country and people

Yes Yes!!! Galina Leonidovna's bruliks were just a fake!

[Gardamir]

fake!

tell us about the cello, about the houses for ducks ..

[Serg65]

Quote: Gardamir

tell us about the cello, about the duck house

I'd rather tell you another fairy tale about how the Minister of Fisheries of the USSR, Alexander Ishkov, convinced the Chairman of the Council of Ministers Alexei Kosygin that the sale of his own products could be profitable to the country, and asked to transfer the functions of selling to fish management. Kosygin for some reason agreed, but his consent for some reason resulted in a criminal case called "The Fish Case". Or here's another tale ..

In the process, the commission found that a number of employees of the Supreme Court of Bashkiria, namely: members of the Supreme Court Sayfutdinov, Karimov, Gilmanov and deputy. Amirkhanov, the chairman of the Supreme Court, was abused by his official position, took bribes, and for this he was released from punishment for criminal offenders, drank together with convicts and brought to criminal responsibility. Chairman of the Supreme Court of Bashkortostan Khananov and Minister of Justice Avzyanov, having signals about the facts of immoral phenomena and abuses among the employees of the Supreme Court, reacted to this liberally and jammed these signals

Report of the Party Control Commission under the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks on the verification of corruption in the judicial system of the Bashkir Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic 17 June 1948 year (highlighted by me)
Well, in the end I would like to know from you where the children and grandchildren of those who lead us to a brighter future live ???

[Gardamir]

Well, in the end I would like to know from you where the children and grandchildren of those who lead us to a brighter future live ??

Talking about crooks of the Soviet period, you hope that I will love the current crooks.

[Serg65]

Quote: Gardamir

Talking about crooks of the Soviet period you hope that I will love the current crooks.

Have you loved the crooks of the Soviet period?
Well, I’ll tell you a story about the cello and the houses .....
What do you think, could A.S. Shcherbakov, not being Zhdanov's son-in-law, in 5 years to become a candidate for membership in the Politburo from the head of the organizational department? Or here is Vasily Iosifovich "Vasiliev". In 1940, he was a junior pilot, and 9 years later he was already a lieutenant general 28 years old!
Yes .... I do not want you to love the current fathers and father-in-law, I just want to say that this has always been and always will be!

[Gardamir]

this has always been and always will be!

So tell us about modern

[Serg65]

Quote: Gardamir

So tell us about modern

So they still haven’t removed secrecy from the modern ones, and I’m not a fan of spreading gossip, you turn to Novalny or go to the aunts of the market!

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Serg65

Galina Leonidovna's bruliks were just a fake!

Are the clocks of the mustachioed bogeyman standing?

[major147]

Quote: tatra

Ha, I agree, the Soviet government did not allow the enemies of the Communists to enrich themselves by robbing their country and people.

Robbing people was the privilege of the Communists, then we see them among the richest people in the country, region, district, city!

[Cheslav Tsursky]

Quote: tatra

Yes, there is no real, adequate, rational trust among the people in this Yeltsin-Putin regime.

This is why you, along with your liberal fellow travelers - Yeltsinists, so attack the current Russian government and the Russian Orthodox Church from all sides?

Quote: tatra

Ha, I agree, the Soviet government did not allow the enemies of the Communists to enrich themselves by robbing their country and people.

I completely agree with you - why, give something to the enemies if everything can be pulled apart by ourselves!

[Vadim237]

And what not to attack is that 19000000 members of the CPSU party were torn from such a feeder, the country of the elite and workers - gray production units for 120 - 160 rubles a month, with a constant shortage of goods and closed mouths - just try to express dissatisfaction with the Soviet government and the economy.

[populist]

Bull Terrier
people want to live. to live well. to receive in this life all that is worthy. try to give children the best in life.

The oligarchs and officials believe that they received from life everything (well, almost everything) that they deserve, and to get this all they can do whatever they want, since they are so worthy. And the remaining 20 million (or how much more) eke out a miserable existence, since they are unworthy.
Cannibalistic philosophy, but it is this philosophy that dominates the "top".

[Vadim237]

Each of these 20 million is poor in its own way - a motley people.

[Serg65]

Quote: Boris Ivanov

credit of trust of the people is not unlimited. the authorities must remember this.

How it all reminds me of the French "Red May" 68th !!! And the slogans are the same!

Be realistic, demand the impossible!
We will not demand and ask for anything: we will take and seize.
Since 1936, I have been fighting for a pay raise. Previously, my father fought for this. Now I have a TV, a refrigerator and a Volkswagen, and yet I have lived my life like a goat. Do not bargain with the bosses! Abolish them!
They bought your happiness. Steal it!
It’s hard to obey the bosses, but it’s even more stupid to choose them.

Only France, after May of the 1968 year, ended as an independent state!

[Reptiloid]

Quote: Serg65

How it all reminds me of the French "Red May" 68th !!! .....
Only France, after May of the 1968 year, ended as an independent state!

There was once an article by Polonsky about these protest movements. Now many of those leaders are in the parliaments of countries. "Red May" is forgotten

[Serg65]

Quote: Reptiloid

"red may" is forgotten

Dmitry, "Red May" was forgotten immediately after de Gaulle's resignation! The Moor has done his job!

[Reptiloid]

Quote: Serg65

Dmitry, "Red May" was forgotten immediately after de Gaulle's resignation! The Moor has done his job!

Now, and at the end of the last century, they no longer remembered the unrest, it turns out that these were such experiments in different countries, and far from each other. It wasn’t so spontaneous. They thought it over, prepared, and in this century started again at a different level. And ours could somehow participate in those processes, probably, Sergey. The picture of the world, perhaps, would be different. Now I think they didn’t want to knowingly, there were already other plans.

[Serg65]

Quote: Reptiloid

And could ours somehow participate in those processes

Dmitry could not! After the rapprochement between the CPSU and the West under Khrushchev and Brezhnev, the Communist parties of Europe considered us traitors of Communism, although they did not disdain money from us to support us, and it is interesting that the French Communists easily went to rapprochement with Mitterrand in their desire to throw de Gaulle away! Ours could not participate yet because de Gaulle was beneficial to the USSR!

[Gardamir]

France after May 1968 ended as an independent state!

What happened to our country after August 1991?

[Cheslav Tsursky]

Same as after February and October 1917! The benefit of all these dates comes the 2000s!

[RitaNik]

Excuse me, what was so important about the advent of the 2000s?

[Cheslav Tsursky]

And you try to think okay yourself?

[RitaNik]

What is there to think? After 2000, the date 2024 will come. If only earlier than this date some other significant date will not happen.

[Cheslav Tsursky]

Dates are memorable, calendar ... And there are epoch-making! 2000 is a landmark year. For the rest, the ways of the Lord are so inscrutable - that we deserve it and receive it. It will certainly be so. Do not doubt. Nice to meet you, Margarita.

[RitaNik]

A fair assessment of the 2000s will probably be given by historians in the future. The rest I agree. Mutually glad to meet you, Cheslav.

[Cheslav Tsursky]

Our history is windy! A truly fair assessment can only be given by people who lived in the USSR at a sane age, who survived the 90s and who now live not in insanity. Any event should be considered in relation to time, place and circumstances. Otherwise, events begin to acquire fabulous options, depending on the political bias of the storytellers. What, to my greatest regret, we observe on this resource daily.

[viktor_ui]

"the credibility of the people is not unlimited. the authorities must remember this ...", what are you saying? But nothing that in loans eat this gullible people themselves ??? Nem’s brain, that’s credited to the fullest ... because most people want to live beautifully exactly chichas, but to earn a living is somehow tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, and it’s better if elderly parents take loans for the people and they themselves take for the people and paid. One thing I can say for sure is that for all the curvature and thievery of the local authorities (ANY LEVEL) ... a people who think with their heads and not with their backs live quite normally and don’t really bother about a piece of daily bread ... although this is not an excuse for clearly gluttonous power structures.

[Ross xnumx]

One thing is certain - Putin’s rating fluctuates within this figure:

Vladimir Putin - 125 (13,94%)

± 5% ...

[Hole puncher]

Quote: ROSS 42

± 5% ...

It was just because of him that they began to live well, having gained access to the feeder and the ability to steal uncontrollably from the rest.

[Vadim237]

Do not tell me which feeder I personally got access to?

[kitt409]

Not you in one of the comments earlier about your own roof wrote?))

[Vadim237]

I have a roof - in the form of an army of lawyers and lawyers. And how does the roof relate to the trough?

[Consultant]

Quote: Vadim237

I have a roof - in the form of an army of lawyers and lawyers. And how does the roof relate to the trough?

With an appetite, probably?

[Hole puncher]

Quote: Vadim237

Do not tell me which feeder I personally got access to?

I have no idea, I'm not a relative of you. If you yourself are not in memory, then contact a medical institution.

[Vadim237]

No - you simply do not hang labels on all those who are richer than the others - a thief, a feeding trough and so on.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Vadim237

No - you simply do not hang labels on all those who are richer than the others - a thief, a feeding trough and so on.

Okay I will not. Moreover, already the ninth mustard plaster received. And here you try, build at least one five-story house for your workers every 5-10 years, as my native enterprise, kindergarten, school did, provide the school with machines for labor lessons, give schoolchildren a paid job, for example, we turned the cores, they made window corners, dismantled auto parts, I don’t remember what else there, heat all this from your boiler room .... Dining room with good food, trips to the resort ... But you won’t do it. Immediately start yelling - rob! I’m sure. That's it, I'm disconnecting.

[Vadim237]

This is not necessary because they have all this - without me.

[Vadim237]

And the correction - judging by the polls, namely on the VO site - on other sites, the difference can be significant, both in minus and in plus.

[Hole puncher]

They lie first of all to themselves. Like do not be afraid, go ahead, do not worry, the people are stupid and believe in you. How a scoundrel assures himself that in fact everyone respects and treats him well, and negative reviews are just a minority’s opinion, the rest of the same opinions simply don’t say ....