Military Review

Another Lend-Lease. War of wires

244
The Second World War, according to experts, was a war ... a wired connection! According to independent estimates, during the war, wired communication took up to 80% of the total picture with communication in the war. Suddenly? It seems to be the twentieth century, radio and so on ... However, this is so. Not radio, but it was wired was the main in World War II.


Another Lend-Lease. War of wires


Ships, planes, TanksOf course, they had radio stations. But here the question of reliability arose, and the question of range.

And if it was a question of more mundane infantry and artillery, then Comrade (Mister) Field Telephone came to the fore.



Yes, World War II became the war of those very phones, wires, soldiers with coils under artillery fire. This topic is usually paid little attention because of not too heroic pictures. A signalman sits in a dugout, and only does that call someone’s call sign. And the commander occasionally runs up with bulging eyes and yells at the soldier: “Run, re-establish communication!”.



Signalers are not even kinogenic perish. The explosions of shells, and that’s all ... Neither are you "one against hundreds of Fritz" (although something like this has happened, and not once). Not to you "For the Motherland! For Stalin!" A splinter or burst of machine gun, and ... The next soldier with a coil on the same field. For your splinter or bullet.



The heroes of our story are not signalmen, but field telephones of the Red Army. Including lend-lease.

Lend-Lease for most of the participants of the Great Patriotic War and us, their descendants, is associated with airplanes, tanks, cars, canned meat. It is clear that such a narrow understanding of the essence of this phenomenon is not developed by knowledge, but by the approach of our ideologues and propagandists to the very supplies of allies. The majority of Soviet, including the authors of this series, from childhood laid down "left views" on this phenomenon.

Even now, when information about Lend-Lease can be drawn not only from Soviet sources, but also from foreign archives, the stereotype of perception is preserved. It sounds ridiculous, probably, but the radicals still exist and even flourish in this matter. Moreover, the radicals on both sides. But to read the source, the law on Lend-Lease, laziness opposing the parties.

On the one hand, we hear about the insignificant role of these supplies in achieving victory over fascist Germany. What is true in some way. Purely mathematical truth. If you look at the total costs of the USSR for the war, then, according to most historians, the cost of Lend-Lease is really not impressive. Total 4% of the total costs of the Soviet Union!

But there is another side. Readers who are closely watching our series "The Other Lend-Lease" have already made an impression about the products that were supplied to the USSR. And first of all, the most urgently needed materials and high-tech equipment were supplied, the value of which is difficult to overestimate. Moreover, high-tech products are often not produced at all in the USSR, or produced in small quantities and obviously obsolete samples.

That is why the authors considered it necessary to give their own understanding of the supply of Lend-Lease. Understanding, based on familiarity with the documents of the time, and, most importantly, technology.

So, the essence of Lend-Lease, if we discard the ideology, is quite simple. And it is strange that this is still not clear to some of the readers. According to the Lend-Lease Act, the United States could supply equipment, weapons, ammunition, equipment and other goods and products to those countries whose defense was vital to the United States.

Notice the wording? Vital to the USA! Not to defeat fascism, not from ideological or political ambitions, but from the ability to wage war with someone else’s hands and thus save your own country and the lives of your own soldiers. Why fight if you do not know how? Why fight if you can buy a fighter? And then you get fame anyway. And money too ...

The Americans simply bought one of the parties (and in fact, given the actions of some American companies, both sides) in order not to get involved in an expensive conflict themselves. Agree, the war on the islands and the war on the European theater of war are two different wars ...

All deliveries were free! All equipment, equipment and materials spent, consumed and destroyed during the war were not subject to payment. But the property remaining after the war and suitable for civilian purposes, must be paid at the prices that were determined at the time of delivery.

This, by the way, is the answer to those who did not understand why cars and other working equipment were “destroyed” in the USSR, and what remained was used “in espionage” in Siberia and the Far East. How it happened with trucks and car tractors, for example. And to those who still consider the dollars that we allegedly “did not pay the United States” for Lend-Lease.

Field telephone. How can he compare with a tank, an airplane or a Katyusha? A plain phone in a wooden box. And meanwhile, any fighter who has been under real fire will confirm this, sometimes a stable connection is more important than even one, but several tanks at once!



To understand the situation at the initial stage of the war, we need to go back a little in time.

The command of the Red Army rather seriously engaged in the development of new types of weapons and military equipment. Tanks, aircraft, guns, small weapon. All this is absolutely necessary. However, in pursuit of the best tanks or aircraft, we didn’t “forget” about some things, but simply could not. Subsequently, these things cost our army many soldiers' lives.



At the beginning of the war, the Red Army had several types of field telephones at once. By the principle of calling all the phones were divided into induction and phonic. According to their characteristics, they are already outdated by June 1941.

These were mainly phones of the following brands: UNA-I-28, UNA-I-31, UNA-F-28 and UNA-F-31. These are quite heavy devices weighing 3,5 kilograms, and UNA-F-28 and UNA-I-28 are generally 5,8 kilograms. Add to this a rather large wooden box in which all these phones were located (for example, the UNA-F-28 was 277x100X273 in size, and the UNA-I-28 was 300X115X235 mm in general).


UNA-AND-28



UNA-AND-31


There was a truth and another phone - a powerful phone (TAM). True TAM was even larger in size. 360x135x270 mm. This model could be used both in the local network and in the central PBX network.

Here a little clarification is needed for non-specialists. What is the difference of networks? Local network is powered by the power of the device. Simply put, the work of this network requires the presence of batteries in the phone itself. Power phones in the central network is carried out by wire from the PBX. In this case, your own batteries are not needed.

Soviet phones were equipped with the same Soviet-manganese-zinc batteries Leclanche. The weight of one such battery was 690 grams. Usually in telephone sets installed on the 2 element. By the way, this weight was not considered the weight of the apparatus. Those. the weight of the elements was added to the weight of the apparatus itself. The batteries had dimensions 55x55x125 mm, which were rather serious for the elements.

And again, a retreat from the narrative. The Leclanchet element is named after the creator, J. Lankanshe, who assembled this primary source of current in the 1865 year. Most of the readers repeatedly held this element in their hands in the form of an ordinary household battery.



The cathode in this element is a mixture of manganese dioxide (MnO2-pyrolusite) and graphite (approximately 9,5%). Further electrolyte solution of ammonium chloride (NH4Cl). Initially, the electrolyte was liquid, but later it began to be thickened with starchy substances (the so-called dry element). Well, the anode is a zinc cup (metallic zinc Zn).

In addition to the listed phones in the Red Army there were such rarities as TABIP-1.



Just say that this phone is quite modern for its time. And we called it a rarity simply because it was a rarity. Although this device was intended for a battalion company link. The apparatus was not suitable for a higher level (battalion-regiment) because the signal with the increase in distance was simply gloh.

This phone was distinguished not only by much smaller dimensions (the reason for the phone’s name itself), but also by its usability. And TABIP is just a “telephone set without power sources”. It had a sealed steel case and was almost the same size in 2 times smaller than the others (235x160x90 mm).

In general, in the Red Army, just as in other armies, there was no order to use only their own telephones. So, in real life in military units, you could meet the phones of absolutely incredible brands and years of release. Even the joke was among the telephonists. "Tell me what devices in your unit, and I will tell her military way."

It would be particularly interesting to look at the warehouses of the Red Army. As they would say today, it was a treasure trove for collectors. Retro devices from the First World War, not only Russian but also of foreign production! By the way, it was these devices that were transferred to educational organizations that were engaged in training civilians in military specialties (such as OSAVIAHIM).

And the saying about the “combat path of the unit” was easily proved, for example, in those units that fought on Khalkhin Gol or on the Finnish war. Phones of the Finnish and Japanese army there were almost the norm. True, they were also a headache commanders. Spare parts were not attached to them, and the fighting - not the most humane way to extend the life of technology.

Here it is appropriate to cite as an example exactly the events at Khalkhin Gol. From 30 August to 19 September 1939, the Soviet troops captured the 71 field telephone, 6 switches, about 200 coils for the telephone cable and 104 kilometer of the cable itself as trophies (in varying degrees of health).

True, there was a positive experience with the use of imported phones. The Finns used Estonian-made field telephones in their army (factory in Tartu). And after we stuffed the 1940 in the summer of the Baltics into the USSR, we received not only Estonian and other armies, but also spare parts for Finnish trophies.

Here is the state of communication of the Red Army was on 22 June 1941 of the year. Not to say that it is hopeless, but it is difficult to call him good. Let's say that - the connection was. Let the C grade, but it was. And then there was the autumn of 1941 ...



Already at the end of 1941, the telephone position in the Red Army became critical. This was understood in the first months of the war by our commanders and commanders, including Stalin and his entourage. Therefore, the question of communication, including wired, was raised at the first supply negotiations.

And again it is necessary to move away from the topic. Now in the field of business. Many people know that the USSR, more precisely still earlier, Soviet Russia, successfully conducted business in some Western countries. It is business. Although this was often explained by the need to finance foreign communist parties, supply the necessary goods to the USSR, earn money for the government.

By the beginning of World War II in the United States successfully operated a company created by Soviet money and also managed by our people. Amtorg Trading Corporation ("Amtorg").

The company was established in 1924 in New York and became a truly successful commercial project. It was registered under American law, most of the Americans worked there, it did not violate US law. And the attention of US counterintelligence was only a “appendage” for a successful business.

Let us give an example of the work of Amtorg from the report 1926 of the year by Chairman of the Board A. V. Prigarin:

“So far, all organizations except the State Bank have received loans of about $ 18 000 000, with about $ 13 000 000 of a bank loan and $ 5 of 000 000 of a commodity. The amount is quite significant, but all loans are short-term, and most are secured by goods. ”

Now back to our story. It was Amtorg who joined the solution of the wired communications problem of the Red Army at the initial stage of the war. Therefore, we can not forget the work of these people. A confirmation of this fact can be found in any museum, which has, for example, American field telephones during the war. To the surprise of visitors, the phones are Russified!

American EE-8B and EE-108 have inscriptions in Russian! What we will not see on the equipment and weapons supplied by Lend-Lease. Simply put, part of the telephone sets were supplied to the USSR as commercial ones. And in this case, the product really has to be adapted to the user of the importing country.

And for dessert, we will inform specialists that the truly exotic IAA-44 and 2005W devices were not supplied under Lend-Lease at all. All of them came to the Soviet Union through the line "Amtorg". At least we did not succeed in finding a refutation of this fact in reliable sources.

And what about military supplies? When did they officially start? And what was delivered?

Strangely enough, we do not have clear answers to these questions. First of all, it must be recalled that the Lend-Lease Agreement was concluded on 11 June 1942 of the year! However, it included shipments starting from October 1 1941.

So, those deliveries that were made before October 1, 1941, were not made under Lend-Lease, but on loan from 10 million to the Treasury, 50 million to Defense Supply Corporation and others (totaling $ 1 billion), about which we wrote in the first part of the cycle. Well, the company Amtorg, already mentioned by us.

In addition, it is quite difficult to track these shipments at all. A telephone is not a tank or a plane. He may not "ascend." And considering that deliveries went from four directions: the northern route to Arkhangelsk and Murmansk, through the Persian Gulf and Iran (especially valuable materials and raw materials), to the ports of the Black Sea and to the Far East (Vladivostok, Petropavlovsk Kamchatsky and other ports), the task it becomes just overwhelming.

There is only one document in which there are some figures concerning field phones in the first year of the war. This is a report by Anastas Ivanovich Mikoyan (USSR Commissar of Foreign Trade) to I. V. Stalin and V. M. Molotov at the beginning of 1942 of the year.

In the help compiled by 9 on January 1942, it was said that from October to December 1941 5 telephone sets were delivered to the USSR in 506, and 4 416 was also on the way from 12 000 pcs. which the United States pledged to supply on a monthly basis and accordingly 36 000, which were generally expected to be received in 1941.

By the way, we should not forget that the number of phones received by the USSR. Only those devices that are actually delivered are included. Sent, but lost in the delivery process is not counted. Here, you should bring an interesting fact that our colleagues found in the port of Arkhangelsk.

The fact is that the Northern delivery route was the shortest, albeit the most dangerous. And accounting of the delivered property there was conducted with military precision. So, for the entire period of the war, according to the financial statement of the surplus and shortage of imported cargo in the port of Arkhangelsk, the 1 (one!) Telephone set was lost. Its cost is 30 $ US.

What phones came to us on Lend-Lease?

According to experts, the first field telephone model supplied to the USSR from the USA was the army induction telephone ЕЕ-8-А. Compared with the models produced at that time by the Soviet industry, the device was quite advanced. Later, EE-8-A was upgraded to EE-8-B. Manufacturer - Federal Telephone and Radio Corporation of the United States.



Both phones were devices of the MB system - with a local (built-in) 3 V battery, which was intended to power the carbon microphone of the TS-9 type tube. And yet, all the phones of this model are assembled according to the “anti-local” scheme.

The difference between the models A and B is in the batteries. The EE-8-A phone kit included two round dry batteries BA-30, which are known to modern readers as “type-D cells”. They were produced by Ray-O-Vac. The Soviet industry did not release such elements.

EE-8 phones were also produced in non-standard (extended) leather bags. Such bags were made specifically for deliveries to the USSR on the orders of Amtorg with payment in hard currency.

Bags of such phones were being finalized in order to ensure the possibility of using not only American but also Soviet dry type 2C batteries (42 x 92 x 42 mm), which were to be placed inside the same phone bag.

A special wooden block was installed inside the bag, on which Soviet batteries were installed. A fastening provided a special leather cover with a button.



Above, we wrote about the supply of commercial phones by Amtorg. On these models of Americans, it can be seen even visually. Army EE-8 on the bags must have been embossed with the brand of the device- "TELEPHONE EE-8-A". Experts say that on EE-8-B there were such inscriptions.

But on the "Amtorgovskih" devices such stamping was not. But the devices were Russified and had instructions in Russian. The weight of the phone with batteries was only 4,5 kilograms.

Well, the "fly in the ointment." The device was reliable, it easily changed the telephone and microphone in the handset, but it was significantly heavy and could not work with phonic devices and switches, which were widely distributed in the Red Army.

A leather bag in the conditions of Russia, where the autumn-spring thaw and rains is a common phenomenon, quickly got wet, the brass cogs of fixation of the device in the bag and the clip of the clasp were oxidized, which somewhat limited the use of such devices at the front.

Late modifications including the EE-8А units for the Red Army were American army field telephones in a canvas box bag. This is how Russian weather modernized American equipment.

The next device, which certainly deserves our attention, is the phone EE-108.



Deserves at least the fact that it was specifically designed for deliveries to the Red Army. This is a classic American with inductor call, without power sources, in a leather bag. He worked at the expense of EMF created in the line of electromagnetic primers of the TS-10 handset.

The TS-10 handset had two electromagnetic primers similar in design to a reversible primer of the Soviet TABIP device. One of the caps had the inscription "Transmitter M", the second - "Receiver T".

The conversational tangent was made in the form of a sunken round brass button. The designation "TS-10" on the tube itself is missing, it can only be seen in the documentation.

EE-108 devices were supplied in hard leather bags, on the front walls of which the inscription "TELEPHONE EE-108" was embossed. A leather shoulder strap was attached to the bag. The size of the bag was 196 x 240 x 90 mm, the weight of the telephone is 3,8 kg.



By the way, there is one surprising fact concerning this particular apparatus. In the TM-11-487 reference manual for communications equipment of the Department of Military Affairs of the USA (October 1944), this device is not available at all. Although according to the memoirs of veterans of the American army, single copies of this phone were used in the US Army. In particular, when laying telephone lines.

Manufactured by 80 771 phones. In the USSR, the 75 261 unit was supplied. To China - 5 500 devices. And 10 sets of Americans gave the army ... Holland. This is according to the documents.

The next device is probably the best known. This is a field telephone with an inductor call, MB system, manufactured by Connecticut Telephone & Electric, IAA-44. End of the war telephone. Produced since 1944.



The description of this device should be started from the fact that ... according to the documents in both the Soviet and American archives, such a phone has never been supplied to the USSR under lend-lease! Although many sources suggest otherwise. Only here are the documents ...

Here we again come to the work of Amtorg. Truly, these guys did their job just great. The envy of bulldogs. IAA-44 - the fruit of their work. We were struck by the "American" letter "I" in the title. With humor, Soviet Americans were all right. Although, according to some sources, there were devices with the name "IAA".

The device IAA-44 according to the scheme is very similar to the American field phones EE-8. As in the ЕЕ-8, two American dry batteries BA-30 with a total voltage of 3 B were used to power the microphone. The initial capacity of the American batteries was 8 ampere-hours.



Inside the device there were compartments for two Soviet-made 3С dry batteries, the initial capacity of which was 30 ampere-hours. In wartime, replacing American batteries with a capacity of 6-8 amps-hours for batteries with a capacity of 30 amperes-hours is great! Terminals for connecting an external battery with 3 V voltage were also provided.

As in the ЕЕ-8 devices, the field telephones IAA-44 used a handset of the type TS-9. There were sockets for connecting an additional handset.

The IAA-44 field phones were shipped in metal cases with 250 x 250 x 100 mm dimensions. The weight of the device with two Soviet batteries 3С - 7,4 kg.

It is clear that now veteran readers are waiting for a story about how we used the American experience to develop the production of something similar in our country. What and when appeared on the basis of. Bearing in mind the Soviet field telephone TAI-43.



Yes, a wonderful designer, holder of several military orders, lieutenant colonel Olga Ivanovna Repina really created a field telephone, which has been in service with the Soviet Army for more than 20 years, which looks like a foreigner. But not on an American, but on a German. And as you already understood, this phone has nothing to do with the US-British supply.



Even those who have not heard this name before have not only seen its inventions in the service in the Soviet army, but also used them. These are the early TA-41 (for completely veterans), TAI-43 (for front-line soldiers of the Great Patriotic and post-war generation) and TA-57 (for today's readers). Thanks to the wisdom of women, stern men communicate qualitatively on the battlefield. Paradox.

The military field phone TAI-43 was created on the basis of captured samples of German field phones FF-33 (Feldfernsprecher 33) of the model 1933 of the year. It is about this phone that our signalers say "Fritz" works even under water. "

More precisely, probably, it will be like this: Repina took the German design and location of controls. But the location of the phone nodes is almost new. In one of the sources, we even found this: "TAI-43 on 90% is ours and only on 10 is German." Leave this opinion without comment. This is really a matter of communicators.

But our devices are worthy of a separate topic (therefore, right after Lend-Lease, we’ll do it).

The second time we repeat a simple and dizzying figure. Almost 80% of all messages in World War II transmitted by wire!

And to underestimate the contribution of our allies (then real) in the form of thousands of telephone sets and hundreds of kilometers of cable would not be very clever.
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  1. Grad-Xnumx
    Grad-Xnumx 29 December 2018 06: 32
    +5
    Thank you for the article!
    You can article about radio stations.
    In a conversation with one veteran, he mentioned a radio station with a hand-held generator.
    1. domokl
      domokl 29 December 2018 08: 25
      +23
      drinks This article is a New Year's gift for the readers of the "Armament" section. And it was written precisely at the insistent request of readers. So, Happy New Year!
      1. neri73-r
        neri73-r 29 December 2018 11: 23
        -5
        All deliveries were free! All equipment, equipment and materials spent, consumed and destroyed during the war were not subject to payment. But the property remaining after the war and suitable for civilian purposes, must be paid at the prices that were determined at the time of delivery.


        What Americans are silver-free, in general, everything was paid, moreover, with gold, resources, minerals, and not the destroyed equipment had to be returned. Moreover, the weapons were considered sent and were set off when the transport left the port of the sender’s country (and it doesn’t matter whether it will reach or sink), but the payment was taken into account when the transport arrived at the destination port (USA)! Naglosaksov still in trade and cynicism no one has bypassed! hi
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 29 December 2018 11: 58
          +8
          Quote: neri73-r
          What Americans are silver-free, in general, everything was paid, moreover, with gold, resources, minerals

          The reverse Lend-Lease cost a couple of orders less than the direct one.
          There was no payment for LL during the war. But for non-LL purchases - for those goods that were not included in the LL lists - you had to pay for it. As well as for DOLL delivery.
          1. Avior
            Avior 29 December 2018 21: 31
            0
            you're not right.
            not by a couple of orders of magnitude, but by 4.
            Rinse 11 billion, reverse -2 million
            1. Flooding
              Flooding 29 December 2018 21: 56
              +1
              Quote: Avior
              not by a couple of orders of magnitude, but by 4.
              Rinse 11 billion, reverse -2 million

              Man, do you know what "order" means?
              The difference by an order of magnitude in our decimal system means tenfold.
              The four orders you deign to write about mean a 10000-fold difference.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Reverse Lend-Lease cost a couple of orders less than direct

              You are closer to the truth than Comrade Avior by two orders of magnitude, but you are more than an order of magnitude more distant from it.
              1. Avior
                Avior 29 December 2018 22: 17
                -1
                well yes.
                direct land lease 11 and reverse 000.
                count zeros ..... neglect the second unit for simplicity ...
                1. Flooding
                  Flooding 29 December 2018 23: 29
                  0
                  Quote: Avior
                  direct land lease 11 and reverse 000.

                  He was not attentive to what was written.
                  But the indicated amount of 2 million, in my opinion, does not hold water.
                  Under the reverse Lend-Lease program, the USSR supplied 320 chrome ore only. tons We can all count.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 30 December 2018 01: 00
                    -1
                    not only withstands, but is universally recognized in all any serious sources.
                    there, besides lend lease, there was also usual trade - fur and stuff, maybe ore was going like that, as well as providing repair services and so on.
                    In addition, an analogue of Lend-Lease and trade was with other countries - Canada, England, Australia, etc.
                    1. Flooding
                      Flooding 30 December 2018 03: 18
                      -1
                      Quote: Avior
                      not only withstands, but is universally recognized in all any serious sources.

                      Please provide links to these serious sources.
                      1. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 11: 58
                        0
                        archive of reports to the US congress on land lease.
                        https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/011421745
                        for example, see report 33, p. 27.
                        in more detail in another report

                        it shows that the ore was not part of the land lease
                        let Belgium not bother you, the overseas territories were not occupied by the Germans, but, for example, the Belgian Congo, the province of Katanga is a center for mining.
                        Many people write about this ore in RuNet.
                        I took modern prices for nickel - 300 thousand tons and manganese - 32 thousand tons - ore and counted in gold equivalent.
                        About 1 gram of gold for nickel and 10 grams for manganese - for 1 ton of ore.
                        At the price of gold at the beginning of the war, it is 600 thousand dollars, a gram of gold then cost about one dollar.
                        Compared to land lysis, a penny.
                      2. Flooding
                        Flooding 30 December 2018 12: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Avior
                        it shows that the ore was not part of the land lease
                        let Belgium not bother you, overseas territories were not occupied by the Germans, but, for example, the Belgian Congo

                        Yes, yes, thank you. The level of sources is clear.
                      3. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 12: 18
                        +1
                        and you try to find another digit of the reverse Lend-Lease somewhere among those who disagree with this.
                        everywhere there are only general stories about ore, furs, gold and that "my uncle's friend's grandfather worked in the port and saw with his own eyes how full ships of gold were sent to America"
                      4. Flooding
                        Flooding 30 December 2018 12: 25
                        0
                        Quote: Avior
                        and you try to find another digit of the reverse Lend-Lease somewhere among those who disagree with this.

                        Sorry, it was not me who claimed that the amount "is generally recognized in all any serious sources." It makes sense that you should be familiar with these "serious sources."
                        I saw them - a link to LiveJournal with a link to some kind of electronic library. And there are some tabular data.
                        I have no questions.
                      5. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 13: 01
                        +1
                        and I should have delivered an archive report to your house with the attached act of examination about its authenticity? and you, like a gentleman, lounging in a chair to me in response, no, it’s not good, not that source, the print is not blue, but black?
                        I did not give you links to LiveJournal, but only to the source.
                        In the library in the fund, digitized by Google, there are reports to Congress at the time when they carefully studied all the debits - loans under the land lease.
                        You do not know what kind of library?
                        you are here
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HathiTrust
                        or even here, if you don’t speak languages
                        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/HathiTrust
                        Does the library still not fit? take the cyberlen
                        here is another source with the same figure of 2,2 million.
                        https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/faktor-lend-liza
                        Did you mean scientific sources? Want to study the issue in detail?
                        http://elar.urfu.ru/bitstream/10995/830/1/urgu0365s.pdf
                        http://www.dissercat.com/content/anglo-amerikanskaya-i-otechestvennaya-istoriografiya-pomoshchi-sovetskomu-soyuzu-po-lend-liz
                        please, here you have a completely scientific historiography of the issue, study, I personally always prefer the primary sources
                        still want some scientific? you are welcome-
                        http://www.dissercat.com/content/soyuznicheskie-otnosheniya-v-gody-velikoi-otechestvennoi-voiny-i-problema-lend-liza
                        this is a collection presented by Russian and American historians on the theme of land lease
                        https://www.twirpx.com/file/2445532/
                        only it costs money.
                        Success
                      6. Flooding
                        Flooding 30 December 2018 13: 41
                        0
                        Quote: Avior

                        and I should have delivered an archive report to your house with the attached act of examination about its authenticity?

                        Do not boil, my friend.
                        You do not owe me anything.
                        Well blurted out, with whom does not happen.
                        Now he rushed to look for confirmation and bombarded me with links to wiki and scientific papers, which he did not read.
                        Sorry, I'm not interested in such a discussion.
                      7. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 13: 48
                        0
                        discussion is when arguments are given in turn.
                        I don’t observe any arguments with you, well, except perhaps for problems with mathematics.
                        I gave you a link to the most authoritative source, which you can imagine, to the source.
                        Provided confirmation that this source is respected and trustworthy.
                        and you through the lip, it won’t work for me.
                        in order for the discussion to be interesting, you need to have it.
                        And you have big problems with this
                        hi
                      8. Flooding
                        Flooding 30 December 2018 19: 47
                        0
                        Quote: Avior
                        discussion is when arguments are given in turn.

                        Then get in line, citizen.
                        Before you gave me this link comrade Cherry nine.
                        True, in this case, unlike you, I did not copy-paste information from another
                        and did not refer to certain scientific works that he himself had not read.
                      9. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 19: 54
                        +1
                        don't strain so you can just essentially write
                      10. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 19: 56
                        +1
                        Quote: Flood
                        True, in this case, unlike you, I did not copy-paste information from another
                        and did not refer to certain scientific works that he himself had not read.

                        Do not bend the stick.
                        The controversy surrounding reverse lend-lease is at the level of "one percent or one hundredth of a percent." I see no reason to be proof in this situation.
                      11. Flooding
                        Flooding 30 December 2018 20: 22
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The controversy surrounding reverse lend-lease is at the level of "one percent or one hundredth of a percent." I see no reason to be proof in this situation.

                        Fundamentally, bearing in mind that the beginning was laid by talking about the number of orders))
                        But I read the opinion in an article that claims to be a small study, that the figure can reach 3-4%.
                      12. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 20: 38
                        -1
                        Quote: Flood
                        the figure can reach 3-4%.

                        Again, the Americans are downplaying the role of the USSR in the Victory, or what?
                        Just the figure of $ 400 million would be nice to justify. The annual prewar export of the USSR was in the region of 100-150 million, but this is not accurate.
                      13. Flooding
                        Flooding 30 December 2018 20: 54
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Again, the Americans are downplaying the role of the USSR in the Victory, or what?

                        Its hard to downplay. And these percentages do not affect the overall picture.
                        The point is a principled approach to any historical fact.
                        That is why on your next phrase
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Just the figure of $ 400 million would be nice to justify.

                        I’ll answer that I didn’t think about voicing this figure, since I don’t have any confirmation for it.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The annual prewar export of the USSR was in the region of 100-150 million, but this is not accurate.

                        An amazing case, but the socialist state, with which it was extremely reluctant to enter into trade deals in peacetime, received in this sense some preferences from unexpected allies in the military era.
                      14. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 21: 25
                        +2
                        Quote: Flood
                        with whom they were extremely reluctant to trade in peacetime, in this sense received some preferences from unexpected allies

                        After the recognition of the USSR, the FDR gave the green light to trade with the USSR. The moral embargo was discussed only in the 39th, after the well-known events. Moreover, it should be remembered whose ally in the 40s were the neutral USA, and whose neutral USSR.
                      15. Flooding
                        Flooding 30 December 2018 23: 34
                        0
                        It is true that the United States, unlike, say, England and France, was very interested in the Soviet market for its products. True, to a much lesser extent - in the import of goods from the USSR.
                      16. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 23: 36
                        0
                        the author of that article did not state any other figure than 2,2 million.
                      17. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 23: 34
                        -1
                        Well, yes, Sutulin's article with the argument "I decided so."
                        The only source I have found claims that this amount amounted to $ 2,2 million. However, I personally am not sure of the authenticity of this data. Nevertheless, they can be considered as the lower limit. The upper limit in this case will be the amount of several hundred million dollars. Be that as it may, the share of reverse Lend-Lease in the total Lend-Lease trade turnover between the USSR and the Allies will not exceed 3-4%.

                        http://statehistory.ru/35/Lend-liz--Mify-i-realnost/
                        The study in his article did not deal with reverse landlize.
                      18. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 21: 42
                        0
                        no disputes are actually being conducted.
                        options 2 - either 2,2 million, or vague discussions about ore and wood.
                        wanders another version with a muddy wording-
                        The total value of goods sent from the Soviet Union to the United States amounted to about 20 percent of Lend-Lease deliveries to the USSR.
                        - in which it is cleverly omitted whether these deliveries within the framework of the reverse lend-lease were simply shipped goods.
                        https://ria.ru/20170611/1496225793.html
                        Above there is a link to Ryzhkov's work - there are also 2,2 million
                        A “reverse” Lend-Lease (associated, for example, with the lease of air bases) received US $ 7,8 billion, of which 6,8 billion from the UK and other countries of the British Commonwealth; the corresponding share of the USSR - $ 2,2 million

                        https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/faktor-lend-liza
                        there is also such a specialized resource under the guidance of a doctor of science, which you can’t suspect of any kind in Americanophilia
                        https://www.noo-journal.ru/энциклопедия/1943/ленд-лиз/
                        Return shipments from the USSR to the United States amounted to 2,2 million dollars. Owls The Union supplied the United States 300 thousand tons of chromium ore, 32 thousand tons of manganese ore, a significant amount of platinum, gold, wood.

                        there is such a resource
                        https://vpk-news.ru/articles/7193
                        In turn, the USSR sent raw materials to the USA as a “reverse Lend-Lease” for $ 2,2 million, which is 2,5 times less than the amount of assistance that the Red Cross provided to the Soviet Union.

                        but the troll, arbitrarily interpreting the seriousness of the sources, is useless to prove something.
                        Yeah, the Americans fooled themselves in the reports, and all that over 2,2 million American capter stole.
                      19. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 13: 54
                        +1
                        But the indicated amount of 2 million, in my opinion, does not hold water.

                        waiting for arguments from you
                      20. Avior
                        Avior 31 December 2018 03: 59
                        0
                        where did the picture go?

                        this is report 33, p. 27
                        previous picture - report 29, p. 28
                        The library is the result of Google’s project to digitize scientific data to provide scientists with wide access to archival material.
                      21. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 12: 09
                        0

                        this is from report 33, abbreviated.
                  2. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 03: 20
                    +2
                    Quote: Flood
                    only chrome ore 320 thousand. tons We can all count.

                    And how much did a ton of such ore cost at that time? What kind of ships on which this ore was loaded, where are they from? For understanding, 320 thousand tons - This is one large bulk carrier, in modern times. Or pieces of 10-20 bulk carriers - for those.

                    ***

                    By the way, on the ships.
                    . supplies came from four directions: the northern route to Arkhangelsk and Murmansk, through the Persian Gulf and Iran (especially valuable materials and raw materials), to the ports of the Black Sea and to the Far East (Vladivostok, Petropavlovsk Kamchatsky and other ports)

                    Strictly speaking, from five, plus Alsib. In addition to the above, there were also deliveries through the Arctic Ocean to Siberian rivers. But only a couple of percent of the total. The World Cup route is the last months of the war and the summer of the 45th. The main war was the Far East.
                    1. Flooding
                      Flooding 30 December 2018 09: 41
                      -1
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      And how much did a ton of such ore cost at that time?

                      I do not know. In any case, the price of ore varies greatly from its composition.
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      What kind of ships on which this ore was loaded, where are they from? For understanding, 320 thousand tons - This is one large bulk carrier, in modern times.

                      What does this have to do with the issue under discussion?
                      For your understanding, 320 thousand tons is a full load of one of the largest balconies today. Or five average bulk carriers again today. If we ignore the conditions of loading / unloading at the ports of departure and destination and the restrictions of the route.
                      But what does it have to do with it? It’s like talking about the transfer of 100 tons aboard the AN-124.

                      Better help Comrade Avior find links to serious sources confirming the cost of reverse Lend-Lease.
                      1. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 11: 46
                        0
                        Quote: Flood
                        What does this have to do with the issue under discussion?

                        Such that 320 thousand tons of ore is not so much, by the standards of this business.
                        Quote: Flood
                        links to serious sources confirming the cost of reverse Lend-Lease.

                        2M is a figure from reports to Congress
                        https://vakhnenko.livejournal.com/203058.html
                        There is also a link to the primary.
                      2. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 12: 03
                        0
                        I do not need to help.
                        I found a long time, look.
                        the approximate present value of the average concentration of ore in the gold equivalent is 600 kg of gold.
                        at that time, 600 thousand dollars.
                        She did not enter the reverse land lease.
                      3. Amurets
                        Amurets 1 January 2019 07: 19
                        +1
                        Quote: Flood
                        Or five average bulk carriers again today. If we ignore the conditions of loading / unloading at the ports of departure and destination and the restrictions of the route.
                        According to the terms of the contract, the recipient must export goods and the United States with his own transport, but the situation was so complicated that there wasn’t enough merchant fleet and the Americans had to build transport ships. In general, the bulk of the load fell on ships of the Liberty type. And on the Pacific Route and on the North. Here he is a hero of Lend-Lease and do not forget that the Law on Lend-Lease was originally adopted to help England, later the USSR and China fell under him.
                        And sorry for the question? As in 5-6 Liberty-type transports, 320 tons of chrome ore could be withdrawn.
                        TTD transport Liberty
                        Displacement 14 tons
                        135 meters length
                        Width 17,3 meters
                        Draft 8,5 meters
                        Engines One steam engine, 2 boilers
                        2360 power l. with.
                        Propeller 1 four-blade propeller diameter approx. 2,9 meters
                        Speed ​​11 knots (20,4 km / h) or 11,5 knots
                        Crew 41 people [1] (ranged from 38-62)
                      4. Flooding
                        Flooding 1 January 2019 09: 10
                        0
                        Quote: Amurets
                        As in 5-6 Liberty-type transports, 320 tons of chrome ore could be withdrawn.

                        Of course it is possible. But not in one flight.
                        You just did not pay attention to what I wrote about five modern average bulk carriers.
                      5. Amurets
                        Amurets 1 January 2019 10: 50
                        0
                        Quote: Flood
                        You just did not pay attention to what I wrote about five modern average bulk carriers.

                        Alas, at that time it was necessary to count every free ton of free space for goods. I hope that it will not be a revelation for you that at the request of the Germans, the Japanese people made it very difficult to get transports to the Pacific ports of the USSR of transport with Lend-Lease cargo.
                        "In a difficult time for our country, when Hitler's troops were rushing to Leningrad, Moscow and Kiev, Japan not only threatened to start a war against the USSR at any moment, [144] but also fed Nazi Germany through its embassy in Moscow with various information about the Soviet Union. She continued to violate the pact of neutrality and other previously concluded agreements.After the military materials purchased by the Soviet Union began to flow from the United States to Vladivostok in August 1941, Japan began to impede the free navigation of Soviet ships in the La Perouse and Tatarsky straits. the pact of neutrality, but also the Portsmouth Treaty of 1905, according to which Japan had no right to violate the free navigation of ships in these areas.Some time later, on December 8, 1941, the Japanese government, in violation of international laws, declared the La Perouse, Sangar and Korean Strait "Naval defensive zones." Thus, all exits from the Sea of ​​Japan turned out to be under the control of the Japanese authorities. In practice, this led to the fact that in December 1941 the Japanese sunk four Soviet transports and captured two {103}. http://militera.lib.ru/h/tihookeanskiy_flot/09.html
                        Zakharov S.E., Bagrov V.N., Bevz S.S., Zakharov M.N., Kotukhov M.P.
                        Red Banner Pacific Fleet
                      6. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 1 January 2019 16: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Amurets
                        Red Banner Pacific Fleet

                        Flirt. It turns out that there was such a Red Banner Pacific Fleet, it is necessary.

                        There was no special Pacific fleet at that time. A coastal defense flotilla at its best. Attacks on Soviet ships were classified as "incidents".

                        8+ million tons of Pacific LL - this is 800 Liberty flights. On average, a ship every other day, or even every day.
        2. domokl
          domokl 29 December 2018 16: 26
          +1
          Quote: neri73-r
          Which Americans are silver-free

          Is it so hard to find and read a contract? Americans have never been unkempt. Read the article if you have internet connection ...
          You confuse Lend-Lease and loan purchases. Those that we received before 1 October 1941 year. For the delivered during this period, we really paid in full.
          1. Avior
            Avior 29 December 2018 21: 33
            -1
            find and read, however.
            All Lend-Lease-free during the validity period.
            and then as they wanted.
        3. Huumi
          Huumi 29 December 2018 17: 50
          +1
          And then what? As agreed and posovli-do not want do not take
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 30 December 2018 10: 07
      +1
      Quote: Grad-1
      Mentioned a radio station with a hand-held generator.

      Well, yes ..... "hand gynerator", "gynecological tree" ...
    3. Amurets
      Amurets 1 January 2019 07: 36
      +1
      Quote: Grad-1
      In a conversation with one veteran, he mentioned a radio station with a hand-held generator

      Or maybe with a foot? The soldier motor is called


  2. serg.shishkov2015
    serg.shishkov2015 29 December 2018 06: 52
    +4
    Thank you so much for the whole series of articles on Lend-Lease, I have been fond of this topic for more than 30 years, a whole notebook in small handwriting, but the nomenclature of telephones for me was a dark forest. indeed, signalmen, cooks, repairmen rarely get on the award lists, but without them the actions of any army would not have been possible. Hope to continue!
    1. your1970
      your1970 29 December 2018 14: 30
      +3
      in 1998 there was an order of the Communications Department of the Moscow Region - according to which they were automatically withdrawn from service and decommissioned (without drawing up separate acts 4-5 category or write-off). So many positions were written down. The first item was "2 wheeled cart on a bicycle for transportation of carrier pigeons"1928 (!!!) years of adoption ....
      Then came telegraph apparatuses of all stripes, Bodo, Yuza apparatus, Morse keys, teletypes, several types of pre-war voles (!!!), some tuning generators, a lot of garbage, in a word ...
      The whole thing was taken into service from 1930 to 1946 and apparently hung according to the accounts of military units and warehouses ...
      For example, at that time, for us, a battalion of communications wrote off some kind of vole from it,
      where did they count them request
      1. serg.shishkov2015
        serg.shishkov2015 29 December 2018 14: 40
        0
        great bins of the motherland !! there’s a lot of interesting stuff there!
  3. nivander
    nivander 29 December 2018 06: 59
    +3
    even a short-term stabilization of the front immediately enveloped the whole area with all kinds of multi-colored wires.What was there but a pole connection and ground and barbed wire instead of telephone noodles and whole tangles of heaps and stacks of some kind of wires of cords and wires and God knows where and where they are going. Sorting out this bedlam is not a task for the faint of heart. The Germans faced this problem back in Poland, and in France it happened that groups of German signalmen looking for a cliff face to face with French and English signalmen who were doing the same thing
  4. serg.shishkov2015
    serg.shishkov2015 29 December 2018 07: 10
    +2
    thanks to this article, I got an excuse for superiors why I am sitting on a VO computer and studying the experience of colleagues in the craft! they have a wired connection, and we have a postal service!
  5. svp67
    svp67 29 December 2018 07: 40
    +13
    Thanks, very interesting. But the story is not quite complete. Apparently, it was also worth pointing out that under Lend-Lease 956700 miles of field cable were delivered to the USSR and this is almost three times more than the USSR could produce during the war years. So not only that, the American wire was better, since it had a rubber braid, unlike the Soviet fabric, which quickly got wet in wet weather.
    1. domokl
      domokl 29 December 2018 08: 20
      +14
      The specialists we contacted expressed a slightly different opinion. American and British wires were much better than Soviet ones. This fact is not disputed by anyone. But the German, thanks to the special isolation, excelled everything. And ours and not ours. The signalmen at the front even coiled up German lines and later used them at home.
      And thanks for the addition. Indeed, a million km of cable is not a joke .. The nerves of war.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. KVU-NSVD
        KVU-NSVD 29 December 2018 10: 10
        +3
        Quote: domokl
        The signalmen at the front even coiled up German lines and later used them at home.
        And thanks for the addition. Indeed, a million km of cable is not a joke .. The nerves of war.

        They also collect wires in peacetime - both their own and everything that they find at the test site ... And moreover, their shortage is a headache - there are so many in the unit, but actually less, you will get so much in the warehouse before the exercises, but it’s incomprehensible to hand over ... The explanation is simple - the wires have to be thrown because of breaks or other problems - you need to assemble it quickly when you march, keep up with the part and at the same time collect it to the maximum. And in war, such losses increase by an order of magnitude. So you have to make up for the losses with everything you find in the fields. Personally, after the exercises, he took a car, soldiers, coils, a map, glonass, binoculars and collected all the voles that he could find at the training sites. Sometimes I managed to get more than I received. Then colleagues from other divisions robustly "rolled out" for her in the most popular "currency" laughing
        1. Fitter65
          Fitter65 29 December 2018 13: 51
          +3
          Quote: KVU-NSVD

          They also collect wires in peacetime - both their own and everything that they find at the training ground ... And moreover, their shortage is a headache - the unit is listed so much, but really less, you will get so much in the warehouse before the exercises, but it’s incomprehensible to hand over .

          Yes, there is something here. As you remember about this field worker, you always shudder. I remember I also served in the SGV, we arrived at the training ground and carried out a deployment, they gave us communications, they gave everything to the endpoints, it’s beautiful, but then the tanks went, and 3 km of chlorine on the tracks were “carried away”, and even 4 TA-57s that they did not manage to catch. Where to looking for? The infantry (we are the OBS from the Air Force, blue shoulder straps, blue chevrons), went natyril. And to be honest, hang somewhere, and if you're lucky at the warehouse, an extra skein (500 m laughing ) was considered the norm. As soon as Chlorik threw much farther than visibility, by the morning someone would surely blame him. Yes there was a time laughing good
          1. KVU-NSVD
            KVU-NSVD 29 December 2018 14: 54
            +4
            Sometimes when delivering to the warehouse, it came to the point that, to increase the visual volume of the vole on the reel, when putting into the warehouse, all rubbish was wound down and a vole from above. But this was rolled only by the most experienced - the weight of the reel should correspond, and the store assistants could even determine the wound footage with an accuracy of 30-50 meters laughing Therefore, the cunning, but inexperienced came across invariably. At the same time, there was still a moment to mark such a coil so that the next exercises would not suffer from at least their cunning. But by the time I finished my ordeal of a divisional signalman - a platoon, about ten km of unaccounted for people were unaware of my cars (I sold it to a substitute before leaving for a tavern when I handed over my affairs and position). The main thing to collect here is not lazy in exercises. The most difficult thing is to find empty coils, for them I rolled out a strong arm in the engineering warehouse .. laughing
      3. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 29 December 2018 10: 14
        0
        Quote: domokl
        But the German, thanks to the special isolation, exceeded all

        They had multi-colored wires. Connecting is easy.
        1. Fitter65
          Fitter65 29 December 2018 13: 53
          0
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          They had multi-colored wires. Connecting is easy.

          And why are there different colors for a single park? Well, if the cable is multi-core, we also have multi-core insulation on the multi-core cable.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 29 December 2018 14: 01
            0
            Quote: Fitter65
            And why are there different colors for a single park?

            I do not know, to be honest. I read that German wires were appreciated, precisely because they are multi-colored
            1. Fitter65
              Fitter65 29 December 2018 14: 17
              +2
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              I do not know, to be honest. I read that German wires were appreciated, precisely because they are multi-colored

              They were simply better, and the resistance of German cables was less, especially at the beginning of the war. Hence the quality of communication and range. A simple example, when he served in the State Security Council in 1983-88, we had a German cable laid between the ZKP and PDRTs still by the Germans, in 1939 it was Germany Stargard-Szczecin. So we had about 3,5 couplings on this cable (60 km), and this was not the only German cable that was laid by the Germans at the airport and used by us.
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 1 January 2019 02: 21
                0
                Quote: Fitter65
                They were just better, and the resistance of German cables was less,

                Almost in the subject, I'll tell you a joke. Men in the 90s went to pick mushrooms in the Moscow region, they look, and there the men dig and saw a copper pipe. "Yes, hell knows, some wires!" Well, they came home, began to tell, and one of them said: "Guys, are they stunned?" "This is the FAPSI connection!" laughing
      4. Alf
        Alf 29 December 2018 20: 41
        0
        Quote: domokl
        million km of cable

        Not a million, but one and a half million kilometers, a mile of something — 1609 meters. 500 thousand kilometers is very much up to the body.
    2. Decimam
      Decimam 29 December 2018 12: 48
      +2
      956 miles -700 1 539 km. The source of information can lead.
  6. kvs207
    kvs207 29 December 2018 08: 32
    0
    Quote: svp67
    956700 miles of field cable were delivered under Lend-Lease in the USSR

    Tell me, where does the figure come from?
    1. tasha
      tasha 29 December 2018 16: 55
      0
      Most likely from the Delivery Protocols mentioned below by the Decimam reader ... A very interesting document, I will tell you, ...
  7. Carib
    Carib 29 December 2018 09: 26
    +6
    GSVG, Separate Dryginsky Regiment, 1983-1985, 80% of telephones in the TAI-43 companies, the remaining TA-57. ; No. although heavy but very reliable, they almost didn’t come to me for repair (replacing the microphone and battery). And here is 57 after field work and hard operation, mainly soldering of broken boards, sometimes phone capsules, inductor contacts, battery contacts.
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 29 December 2018 14: 01
      0
      SGV. A separate 347 BS, at 239 the Red Banner Baranovichi IAD aerodrome Klyuchevo. 100% Ta-57 / 57M, TAI-43 there were only 2 pieces, moreover, they were already in bakelite buildings, one stood in diesel, the second on the backyard (pigsty)
  8. Avior
    Avior 29 December 2018 10: 18
    +2
    All phones of this model are assembled according to the "local" scheme.

    this means that the speaker did not hear himself in the receiver.
    I had to pull the lines in the training and in the 80s, in the Soviet Army they liked wire communication lol
  9. Rusfaner
    Rusfaner 29 December 2018 10: 46
    +8
    In addition to the article: for communication between regiment-division-army and higher under Lend-Lease or through Armtorg (I don’t know), 12-channel wired compression equipment for cable communication lines - K-12 was supplied (old Soviet "multichannel workers" remember it Soviet "daughter" - K-12 + 12) and wire compaction equipment for overhead communication lines - V-3/3 (three PM-channels) and V-12 (12 PM-channels).
    I’m a radio operator and I can make a bit of a mistake with the names, since the subjects of MES (multichannel telecommunications), nuclear power plants (automatic electronic communications) and LKSS (linear cable communication facilities) were still of secondary importance to us.
    But the TA-57, more precisely, its inductor was extremely popular with our scouts in the SA (GSVG). I believe that the method of using this device, which is very useful for quick and effective interrogation of prisoners captured behind the front end, was inherited from the signalmen / scouts of the Great Patriotic War ...
    And from the front-line soldiers, we got a useful experience of using bottles for the "dry" connection of voles in fields and trenches filled with water - you splice the vole wires with a run-up along the length (when there is no black rubber tape), push it into the bottle to the very bottom, wedge the wire into splinter in the throat and, turning it upside down, drive it into the ground so that the bottom sticks out (then it is easier to find and connect for "control"). The water never reaches the bare connection. Simple and tasteful!
  10. BAI
    BAI 29 December 2018 10: 51
    +1
    If you look at the total costs of the USSR for the war, then, according to most historians, the cost of land-lease is really not impressive. Only 4% of all costs of the Soviet Union!

    4% percent is not the figure of historians. This figure was voiced in 1947 by the chairman of the USSR State Planning Commission N. Voznesensky.
    (“The military economy of the USSR during the Patriotic War”, Moscow, 1947, p. 74).
    There are sources that indicate the year 1948.
    1. TTi
      TTi 30 December 2018 13: 56
      -1
      Quote: BAI
      4% percent is not the figure of historians. This figure was voiced in 1947 by the chairman of the USSR State Planning Commission N. Voznesensky.
      (“The military economy of the USSR during the Patriotic War”, Moscow, 1947, p. 74).
      There are sources that indicate the year 1948.

      Amazingly, the USSR fought while eating almost completely (RKKA) American products, often on American gasoline, American explosives and gunpowder (and many others), and this blagot something blundered about 4% there.
      1. meandr51
        meandr51 30 December 2018 18: 44
        -2
        And you blundered with a hint of 100%. Well, and whom do you command to believe? Voznesensky, according to front-line soldiers, is more objective. The vast majority of military equipment was made in the USSR. No one had any doubt that the war would have been won without any Lend-Lease. About food - just ridiculous.
        On average, for each soldier of the 30 million personnel of the Red Army, there were 73 banks. That is, one can for 20 days. If we take into account the decline of 10 million people, then by 2 weeks. This was confirmed by my dad, the lieutenant, who took Konigsberg. "We rarely ate American stew. As a rule, we ate soup-kulesh made from domestic concentrates. Food was generally bad in the offensive. We got it as best we could."
        In addition, what we got was ours. They earned their military and diplomatic successes. May the British Americans be grateful to us that they did without a swastika over London and Washington! Without us, the Germans would have crushed these warriors like their canned tin ...
        1. TTi
          TTi 30 December 2018 19: 50
          0
          Quote: meandr51
          Voznesensky, according to front-line soldiers, is more objective.

          Do you at least read yourself as if from the outside?
          What front-line soldiers? How do veterans know whose gasoline, how much grub was received, whose gunpowder in ammunition and whose TNT in mines, bombs and shells?
          In the field and tank artillery shells during the war, A-90 ammatol with TNT cork was used. Why did they explode with a minimum of fragments. Without supplies under the Lend-Lease of TNT, there simply would be nothing to start them at all.
          Quote: meandr51
          The vast majority of military equipment was made in the USSR.

          Yes, figs there. Only BTT and slightly aviation.
          Quote: meandr51
          No one had any doubt that the war would have been won without any Lend-Lease.

          There is a firm belief that if the Soviet Union on September 24.09.1941, 1942 had not flown under the wing of the Anglo-Saxons, there would have been no one to fight in the spring of 1941. They would die of starvation in that terrible winter of 42-XNUMX. So then they died in the millions, and without American food, everyone would have died.
          Quote: meandr51
          About food - just ridiculous.

          You are the residents of Leningrad arr. 1941-42 tell us how funny it is without food. And this "Leningrad" in one form or another in the winter of 1941-42 was created everywhere in the USSR.
          Quote: meandr51
          On average, for every soldier of the 30 million personnel of the Red Army, 73 banks were necessary.

          Read what standards the Americans supplied food for the Red Army. The whole of the Red Army, completely. But real food standards in the Red Army were noticeably lower, so food remained for the rear. And they replaced something for the army with domestic products, too, of course.
          Quote: meandr51
          In addition, what we got was ours. They earned their military and diplomatic successes.

          Is it like that?
          Quote: meandr51
          May the British Americans be grateful to us that they did without a swastika over London and Washington!

          To delirium! Just crazy delirium.
          Quote: meandr51
          Without us, the Germans would have crushed these warriors like their canned tin ...

          Boy, the Germans never had a chance to defeat the Anglo-Saxons in WW2. Somehow it is necessary to understand once that against the Anglo-Saxons "evil and terribly powerful Germans" were little boys with dirty asses.
          The Anglo-Saxons needed the USSR only to reduce their own losses. Those. Soviet people were interested in the Anglo-Saxons only in terms of cannon fodder. Like the Chinese in Asia and the Ethiopians in Africa.
          Even if the Anglo-Saxons did not bargain with Dzhugashvili (and it is impossible to believe in it), they would still find some cannon fodder for the Germans. But they wouldn’t have found, would have cleared Germany off the face of the earth with atomic weapons in 1945. If there was anything left to level there, after their carpet bombing of 1942-43-44.
          War is a competition of economies, first of all. The German economy of those years is a small bug compared to the American and British economies.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 4 January 2019 08: 51
            0
            Do not forget about 15 million pairs of soldier's shoes! Barefoot you will not fight!
  11. BAI
    BAI 29 December 2018 11: 07
    +1
    Speaking about Lend-Lease, one should always remember the following:
    32nd US President F. Roosevelt (March 1933 - April 1945): “helping Russians is a fortune”;
    33rd President: G. Truman (April 1945 - January 1953): “If we see that Germany is winning, we must help Russia, and if Russia will prevail, we must help Germany, and let them such way, they kill each other as much as possible "...
    There is nothing more to add about "disinterested" help from allies!
    Americans have never done anything for nothing (i.e. for free), they are not doing it now and will not do it in the future!

    Moreover, it is indisputable - it is better to spend money and save the lives of soldiers. If the interests of the United States and the USSR coincided in matters of supplies, then this is very good.

    We were struck by the "American" letter "I" in the title.

    One of the authors wrote a series of articles about stew. One could start to be amazed even then:

    "Stew" - through "O". And we also laugh at Chinese translations.
    1. tolancop
      tolancop 29 December 2018 12: 03
      +7
      "...." Stew "- through" O ". And we still laugh at Chinese translations."
      No need to laugh, in the 50s many words changed their spelling. For example, "itty", "exploitation", "chort", "abroad" (it was written together), etc.
    2. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 29 December 2018 16: 12
      +1
      Quote: BAI
      33rd President: G. Truman (April 1945 - January 1953):

      It should be noted that this phrase refers to President Truman, and the senator from Missouri Truman in June 41st.
    3. Avior
      Avior 29 December 2018 21: 28
      0
      Before the war in the States, there was no difference between the USSR and Germany, who were then closely friends.
      And really, from the point of view of the United States, the position of one of the senators of Truman at that time was fully consistent with the US national interests.
      Our happiness is that Roosevelt was able to convince American lawmakers that it was the USSR that needed help, contrary to the real interests of the United States.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 03: 51
        0
        Quote: Avior
        And really, from the point of view of the United States, the position of one of the senators of Truman at that time was fully consistent with the US national interests.

        But what kind of senator is there, FDR swore in 40 that "our boys" would not go and investigate these European fornication.
        Quote: Avior
        Roosevelt managed to convince American lawmakers that it was the USSR that needed help, contrary to the real interests of the United States.

        Strictly speaking, Roosevelt initially seemed to help Britain. And then one after another reached out. As for interests, then it generally ironically happened. Roosevelt stood for free trade against empires. From this point of view, Germany was a natural ally of the United States, and Britain and France (and Japan) were natural opponents. Fortunately, the WFGN, with its penniless gesheft, like Gdansk, ended up in the wrong team.
        At the same time, the USSR portrayed the republic, however, as the situation calmed down, he went crazy wherever he got, such an empire with such protectionism that the British never dreamed of. So the gain of America in general and the FDR in particular in WWII is not at all as absolute as it is commonly thought.
        Quote: Avior
        Our happiness is that Roosevelt succeeded

        "Our happiness" that Roosevelt succeeded
        1. Fail strategic intelligence.
        2. To exclude any sanity in the work of the State Department.
        3. To allow an unprecedented flowering of all mold, people of good will. In this regard, Roosevelt was only surpassed by Obama.
        4. Fail to build an army and mobilize industry.

        As a result, the United States, unlike Churchill, did not turn around in 43rd to "contain" the USSR, was unable to dissolve the advantages that it had in 43-45, and did not feel strong enough to indicate to its new Soviet friends in their place. As a result, former Soviet friends by the 60s began to pose the greatest threat to the United States since the Napoleonic wars.
        1. Avior
          Avior 30 December 2018 11: 46
          0
          The States did not need to help the Germans, but it was quite possible to make it clear to them that the amount of aid to England greatly depends on the intensity of the hostilities against it
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 11: 51
            0
            Quote: Avior
            States did not need to help Germans

            The Americans very roughly understood what they needed.
            1. Avior
              Avior 30 December 2018 12: 01
              0
              and Roosevelt's position triumphed.
              and became the USSR superpower, and not killed in complete unsuitability by war territory
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 13: 44
                +1
                Quote: Avior
                Roosevelt's position triumphed.
                and became the USSR superpower,

                Roosevelt's position - to create a global commune of hippies, something like a global EU - did not triumph, because it was initially insane. It is more correct to say that he did such things that 40 years before Reagan he couldn’t get rid of them.
                Truman managed to fix a lot, but not all. Although Truman is considered one of the best American presidents, there were not enough eggs to act on conscience - to hold the XX Congress. Even the most indisputable Roosevelt crimes - for example, repressions against Americans of Japanese descent - were recognized as a crime much later, and things such as high treason and falsification of the elections of the 40th year are still not recognized.
                As for the superpower of the USSR, tell someone in April 45th to Truman about the reach of medium-range missiles with a center in Cuba - it would not seem constructive to Moscow partners.
                1. Avior
                  Avior 30 December 2018 14: 05
                  +1
                  well, then he didn’t even know about socialist Cuba
              2. TTi
                TTi 30 December 2018 14: 16
                -1
                Quote: Avior
                and became the USSR superpower, and not killed in complete unsuitability by war territory

                Wait a couple of years, and the DPRK will also become this kind of "superpower".
                You have some strange ideas about the meaning of this term. Since the beginning of the 40s of the last century, there were no other superpowers, besides the USA, in the world. China's success, of course, is impressive, but it cannot reach the status of a superpower. Americans will not give.
                Quote: Avior
                not the territory completely killed by the war

                Largely killed.
                1. Avior
                  Avior 30 December 2018 14: 39
                  0
                  it was in the forces of the Americans to kill her much more.
                  China does not consider it a superpower, especially since the Chinese agree with me, as I understand it. love
                  As for the DPRK, it exists in this form, since it does not bother anyone.
                  Like Cuba, for example.
                  If it really gets in the way, the States will click on China, and China on Un.
                  This is all a matter of allocating a resource for these purposes.
                  1. TTi
                    TTi 30 December 2018 14: 52
                    -1
                    Quote: Avior
                    it was in the forces of the Americans to kill her much more.

                    Fairly killed.
                    But yes, it was able.
                    Quote: Avior
                    As for the DPRK, it exists in this form, since it does not bother anyone.

                    You are mistaken not only strongly, but in the most radical way. In fact, the meeting of Trump and Kim in Singapore (and even more precisely, the process started on March 7, 2018) is the most important event of the 21st century. With VERY far-reaching consequences.
                    I would like to make a mistake, but I'm afraid Russia will not remain aloof from that showdown.
                    Quote: Avior
                    Like Cuba, for example.

                    We agreed on Cuba many years ago. About the DPRK, no.
                    Quote: Avior
                    If it really gets in the way, the States will click on China, and China on Un.

                    And Eun will send China as a last resort. As an option.
                    Therefore, China will not put pressure on Eun. And not only so. Unfortunately.
                    1. Avior
                      Avior 30 December 2018 15: 01
                      0
                      send China- get a complete real blockade.
                      but this geopolitics is clearly beyond the land lease smile
                      1. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 15: 19
                        -1
                        Quote: Avior
                        send China- get a complete real blockade.

                        Sneeze.
                        Personal interests are more important.
                2. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 15: 06
                  0
                  Quote: tti
                  Wait a couple of years, and the DPRK will also become this kind of "superpower"

                  Yes. Because the Americans manage to elect either cowboys or chambers as presidents over and over again. To bomb Milošević, Saddam, Gaddafi who is no use to you - always please, solve the issue with a sting who seriously has the opportunity to crash around America - that you, this is the place for deep concern and constructive dialogue.
                  Quote: tti
                  Largely killed.

                  Not enough killed. To win, the Americans should not have allowed the USSR to receive the German inheritance (well, they themselves should not merge technology, of course). How to do this - Roosevelt had no idea. And I did not see such a need.
                  Quote: tti
                  Therefore, in 1940, the Americans saw competitors in the Germans.

                  WFGN with its purely tactical goals lost sight of the global game. As a result, the Reich went from victory to victory - to complete disaster.
                  Roosevelt just played big. And he played too much.
                  1. TTi
                    TTi 30 December 2018 15: 28
                    0
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    to solve the stumbling issue, which seriously has the opportunity to crave for America - what are you, this is the place for deep concern and constructive dialogue.

                    It seems to me from the beginning of 2018 they began to solve this issue.
                    I would very much like Russia to remain aloof from this process. But I'm afraid, unfortunately this will not happen.
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    To win, the Americans should not have allowed the USSR to receive the German inheritance (well, they themselves should not merge technology, of course).

                    Then they could not abandon the USSR, they still needed a Soviet landing on the Japanese islands and a "storm of Tokyo" (they did not know that by the fall of 1945 they would have an atomic bomb). But why they did not kick the USSR out of Europe after Japan's surrender is a mystery to me. I can't understand why they needed the USSR and the "socialist camp" there. The Bundes (together with the French) under their command during the blitzkrieg of 1946 would have dealt with this matter easily and simply.
                    1. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 16: 21
                      +1
                      Quote: tti
                      It seems to me from the beginning of 2018 they began to solve this issue.

                      Are you talking about old Twitter? To tell the seven-year-old that Santa does not exist is his ceiling, as far as one can judge. It is good, of course, that the Americans did not choose their Irina Yarovaya as president, but Trump's years are lost for America, this also needs to be understood.
                      Quote: tti
                      then they still needed a Soviet landing on the Japanese islands and the "storm of Tokyo"

                      In the coffin they saw the Soviet landing. Roosevelt was a bastard, but not a downer.
                      Quote: tti
                      The Bundes (together with the French) under their leadership during the blitzkrieg of 1946 would have chopped off this matter easily and simply.

                      If you do not use drugs, then someone secretly puts them in vodka for you.

                      It is impossible to fight a first-class army with the help of a people's militia, albeit a ten millionth one, which Marshall for some reason gathered by the 45th year. Keep him under arms until the 46th year - too. The Americans were incapable of any blitzkrieg against the Red Army. The 46th German-French army is a pure glitch.

                      Reich to the Volga or the Urals did not suit Americans in the same way as the Portuguese SSR. How to solve the issue of a new balance - Roosevelt had no understanding. As a result, the balance of power in Europe, which had been kept for 200 years by limes, had to be straightened out with the help of a permanent English and American contingent. This deprived the Americans of such a valuable opportunity, in the event of another brawl for 3 years, to sit overseas and rub their sweaty palms.

                      The Americans could end the war in Asia and Europe at any moment. To do this, it was enough to abandon the bloody madness of "complete and unconditional surrender." Had the Americans declared in the 44th the option that was actually implemented - 20 switchmen and the Marshall plan - Hitler would have been carried out in their arms, but the samurai would not have to be taken out - they would have killed themselves voluntarily.
                      1. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 16: 59
                        -2
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        To tell the seven-year-old that Santa does not exist is his ceiling, as far as one can judge.

                        He also earned several yards of dollars. Do not grind with the help of muddy schemes and take to offshore, and legally earn.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        but Trump's years are lost for America, this also needs to be understood.

                        I disagree. Trump is needed now by the United States, which is why he was chosen. And I think he could have done a lot for her, if not stopped. It's not even the "random Lee Harvey". I think the world fin. the crisis will flare up in time for the next American election. And he simply will not be re-elected.
                        Prevent this fin. transnational capital crisis (it was with him that Trump started a war). And to shift the time of the onset of the crisis is easy.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        In the coffin they saw the Soviet landing. Roosevelt was a bastard, but not a downer.

                        Do you think the landing was supposed to be American? You are mistaken. Cannon meat, this is not the role of the Anglo-Saxons.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        If you do not use drugs, then someone secretly puts them in vodka for you.

                        I don’t drink vodka either.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The 46th German-French army is a pure glitch.

                        No, German separately, but French, allied German, separately.
                        But in fact, the French army would not be required. It was enough to minimize the USSR Lend-Lease and redirect it to the Bundes. And in one season (1946) the issue would be resolved - the Bundes, with the air support of the Anglo-Saxons, would enter the AA line (Astrakhan, Arkhangelsk). Strictly according to the plan of Barbarossa.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Reich to the Volga or the Urals did not suit Americans in the same way as the Portuguese SSR.

                        And who said that the Bundes would get anything from this pie? I think these would be the same independent states as they are now. At least about the same. And beyond the Volga and the North. Dvina (to the east) would be useless for the USSR and Dzhugashvili.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        If the Americans declared in the 44th that option that was actually implemented - 20 switchmen and the Marshall-Hitler plan they would have carried in their hands

                        Judging by the fierce resistance of the Germans to the very end, I doubt it. Hitler in Germany supported the population, that’s the problem.
                      2. Yuriy_999
                        Yuriy_999 30 December 2018 18: 57
                        0
                        And in one season (1946) the issue would be resolved - the Bundes, with the air support of the Anglo-Saxons, would enter the AA line (Astrakhan, Arkhangelsk). Strictly according to the plan of Barbarossa.

                        The plan "Unthinkable" in action, but it was not implemented (I think they understood its complete futility). The shattered army marches in victorious march. Oh well. Not only do you have to go much more than Hitler in 41, your own people will not understand. And the SA of 1946 is not the Red Army 1941
                      3. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 19: 59
                        -1
                        Quote: Yuri_999
                        Shattered army marching victorious march.

                        Why not? The Nazis in Germany had already been cleaned up by then. And against the Germans themselves, the Americans had nothing.
                        Quote: Yuri_999
                        Not only do you have to go through much more than Hitler in the 41st,

                        With the level of motorization in 1946, this is not a problem.
                        Quote: Yuri_999
                        so even their own people will not understand.

                        I’ll understand how. The main thing is to come up with a decent story.
                        Quote: Yuri_999
                        And the SA of 1946 is not the Red Army 1941

                        This, yes, the rear without American supplies, no at all. And mobressurs too.
                      4. Yuriy_999
                        Yuriy_999 30 December 2018 23: 41
                        +1
                        at 45 in Germany rowing and 16 and 60 years old, who would have fought? Half are in the Soviet occupation zone. And 80, or even 90% think "it's good that it's all over and I'm alive," and you again offer them "forward to the machine guns," and even for my uncle.
                      5. TTi
                        TTi 31 December 2018 00: 27
                        -2
                        Quote: Yuri_999
                        at 45 in Germany rowing and 16 and 60 year olds, who would fight?

                        This is a militia. In 1941, in the USSR, too, it was paid in such rowing. And then another 3,5 years fought without such militias.
                        Quote: Yuri_999
                        and you again offer them "forward to the machine guns", and even for the uncle.

                        You confused me with someone. But, yes, the Americans could well have made them such an offer that they could not refuse. And not only them, all of Europe.
                      6. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 20: 59
                        0
                        Quote: Yuri_999
                        however, they did not realize it (I think they understood its complete futility)

                        The "unthinkable" implied the establishment of four fronts (1,2,3, 1, 3 Belorussian, 2,3,4 Ukrainian), with 2 more fronts on the open right flank (XNUMX, XNUMX, XNUMX Ukrainian), and on the outside of the boiler - Kurland grouping (Leningrad Front, reinforced by units of the XNUMXnd Baltic). At the same time, the forces that Monty had at his disposal were at least twice as low as those that had been excavated, excluding the forces outside the boiler. A month to prepare.
                        Churchill was sent a snack and the question was settled.
                      7. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 20: 52
                        0
                        Quote: tti
                        he was also able to earn several yards of dollars. Do not grind with the help of muddy schemes and take to offshore, and legally earn.

                        This is a very difficult question, how much money he has and where it comes from. It is believed that people are extremely muddy. A big flaw in the American tax authorities.
                        Quote: tti
                        Trump is needed now by the United States, and therefore it was chosen

                        Few voted for Trump. Most of his voters voted against Hillary. There is nothing good about it.
                        Quote: tti
                        Do you think the landing was supposed to be American? You are mistaken

                        Naturally. You better know than King and Marshall.
                        Quote: tti
                        the question would be resolved - the Bundes, with the air support of the Anglo-Saxons, would enter AA line

                        Pro-Soviet nonsense and anti-Soviet nonsense - they are very similar.
                        Quote: tti
                        I doubt it. Hitler in Germany supported the population, that’s the problem.

                        You never know who supported the population.
                      8. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 21: 35
                        -1
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        A big flaw in the American tax authorities.

                        They know better.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Few voted for Trump. Most of his voters voted against Hillary.

                        Against Hillary, this is also a symptom.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        You better know than King and Marshall.

                        Maybe not better. But I know one thing, the Americans would have landed in Japan already when nothing was threatening the lives of their soldiers.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Pro-Soviet nonsense and anti-Soviet nonsense - they are very similar.

                        May be. But the fact that the Bundes, with the support of the Anglo-Saxons would have torn to pieces the Red Army arr. 1945 in a matter of months, I’m sure. I just don’t see how and how the Red Army could stop them.
                        Yes, without Lend-Lease, the USSR would have had enough resources for some time. But not more than a few months.
                        If you have something on this subject, tell me. I mean the arguments in favor of the Red Army. Maybe I will be imbued with them.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        You never know who supported the population.

                        Officers and generals of the Wehrmacht, this is also the population.
                      9. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 22: 24
                        +1
                        Quote: tti
                        But I know one thing, the Americans would have landed in Japan already when nothing was threatening the lives of their soldiers.

                        Once again, you have a misconception about the Americans. They are not like that now, and even more so they weren’t. When it was possible to win by blood, not by blood, they did so. But they were not afraid of blood.
                        Another thing is that both AB and the entry into the war of the USSR helped, finally, sane Japanese ministers to swaddle violent and close the issue.
                        Quote: tti
                        Wehrmacht officers and generals, this is also the population

                        With the military, the WFGN was far from brilliant. From von Sect, who ordered the shooting of the beer coup to be shot, through Blomberg-Fritsch (I recall that then, in the framework of the fight against homosexuals, they managed to expel von Manstein from the General Staff), to Witzleben and Klugg, and there Kesselring, commander of the Western Front, and even Goering got his opinion.
                        Quote: tti
                        Yes, for some time the USSR would have had enough resources. But not more than a few months.
                        If you have something on this subject, tell me. I mean the arguments in favor of the Red Army.

                        In the spring of the 45th, the ground forces of the Red Army in Europe surpassed all the rest - opposing and allied - by about half, both in numbers and in technology. At the same time, those military leaders who were at the helm at that time were very competent. The USSR did not have a single chance to win the war with England and the United States — without a fleet — but the Allies simply had nothing to crush the Red Army in Europe. The task of the Allies would be to prolong the war, but even this required serious preparation, which was not there.
                        In addition, you forget that democracies cannot afford such sharp turns as dictatorships.
                        Quote: tti
                        the Bundes supported by the Anglo-Saxons

                        In an alternate reality. Adding American, English and German war machines to each other - years and years. To help the Germans east of the Oder in a military sense, the Allies could not do anything. Do not reach. Is that AB in Moscow, but here you should remember the Roosevelt legacy in the form of people of good will.
                        Feeding economically - yes. But it's too late. And before it was too early. And so and so bad.
                      10. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 22: 47
                        -1
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        you have a false opinion about the Americans. They are not like that now, and even more so they weren’t.

                        Horns on the head? Or breasts in a comfortable place on the back?
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        With the military, the WFGN was far from brilliant.

                        The assassination attempt on Hitler showed that this was not the case. Of the significant figures in the coup, only Rommel was involved. Who then "died" in time.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        In the spring of the 45th, the ground forces of the Red Army in Europe surpassed all the rest - opposing and allied - by about half, both in numbers and in technology.

                        This is not an argument. Twice for the Red Army, it is critically small. With this ratio, she would be lucky if she could defend herself.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        At the same time, those military leaders who were at the helm at that time were very competent.

                        The military leaders in the USSR, in my opinion, were never competent. At least I don’t know of such operations in which the losses of the Red Army would be at least equal to the losses of the Wehrmacht, and at the same time that the Red Army would win.
                        In bulk, a mountain of corpses, yes, they could. But other examples, at least I do not know.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        but the Allies simply had nothing to crush the Red Army in Europe.

                        I told you, the Bundes and the French. It was still possible to strain the Belgians, Dutch, Danes and Spaniards. The Italians were idle. After the expulsion of the Red Army from Poland, the Poles themselves would have run into the army to enroll in order to fight the USSR. The Romanians once again "bravely" would turn their weapons 180 degrees. Hungarians. Finns.
                        Anglo-Saxons would not have a shortage of cannon fodder.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        In addition, you forget that democracies cannot afford such sharp turns as dictatorships.

                        Here.
                        So we came to the place where the dog rummaged.
                        The Anglo-Saxons needed time to prepare public opinion. And since such a task was not included in the priority ones, they simply lost time. And then it was too late, the USSR acquired nuclear devices. First, without delivery vehicles, and then delivery vehicles arrived.
                        By the way, here Khrushchev fussed. Dzhugashvili put on aviation, but it was a dead end. And Khrushchev immediately put on the rocket. And guessed it.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Adding American, English and German war machines to each other - years and years.

                        Do not make me laugh. In 1945, all the warriors were already experienced. Pros. A few weeks and go.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        To help the Germans east of the Oder in a military sense, the Allies could not do anything. Do not reach.

                        From their sectors of occupation?

                        I am nevertheless for an uprising against the Bolsheviks inside the USSR. As it was in China and Ethiopia, which in Asia and Africa played for the Anglo-Saxons about the same role that the USSR played for them in Europe. But alas, society in the USSR was reduced to such a low level that nothing like even Ethiopia (the uprising was weaker there than in China) did not happen.
                      11. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 23: 29
                        +1
                        Quote: tti
                        Of the significant figures in the putsch, only Rommel was involved.

                        Indeed, only three field marshals.
                        Rather, of the significant figures to the end with Hitler was one Keitel, the German Voroshilov.
                        Quote: tti
                        This is not an argument. Twice for the Red Army, it is critically small. With this ratio, she would be lucky if she could defend herself.

                        The offensive operations of 44-45 years were carried out with approximately the same balance of forces (and often worse), and with approximately the same ratio for those killed as in the West. 1.2-1.5 in favor of the Germans. The Americans won the Germans in losses due to prisoners, first of all. Moreover, it was precisely in the West that no major operations were carried out with equal forces, and even less so in the minority.
                        Quote: tti
                        Anglo-Saxons would not have a shortage of cannon fodder.

                        An alternative with omnipotent Americans making at times out shit Romanians and Italians soldiers, not ready to discuss.
                        Quote: tti
                        all warriors are already experienced. Pros. A few weeks and go.

                        About experienced Americans wrote below. The Germans of the 45th year - a disorganized crowd of refugees, the Wehrmacht must be re-created. There is no such solution, and for many years to come.

                        The French de Gaulle are miserable show-offs, like himself.
                        Quote: tti
                        From their sectors of occupation?

                        There can be no talk of any strategic aviation in Germany. Americans are incompetent, but not so!
                        Quote: tti
                        uprising against the Bolsheviks inside the USSR

                        Again you have the almighty Americans. In practice, they could not agree on Italy for 2 years, and did not even try to figure out, hu from hu in Japan - to distinguish between the white man and the Chinese from the West, not that between themselves.
                        The Yankees in those years no diplomacy no strategic intelligence. There is radio interception and air reconnaissance, but there is no one to talk with Shtulppnagel, for example. At all no one. Dulles in Switzerland a tourist sitting.
                      12. TTi
                        TTi 31 December 2018 00: 41
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Rather, of the significant figures to the end with Hitler was one Keitel

                        Yah. All were.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The offensive operations of 44-45 years were carried out with approximately the same balance of forces (and often worse), and with approximately the same ratio for those killed as in the West. 1.2-1.5 in favor of the Germans

                        I do not think.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Romanians and Italians soldiers

                        OK. French, Spaniards and Germans with Finns. Enough?
                        I also forgot the Poles and Hungarians.
                        The Spaniards, by the way, showed themselves well on the Eastern Front.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The French de Gaulle are miserable show-offs, like himself.

                        There were still French Vichy.
                        In general, the French were good at fighting. But they had serious problems with motivation. If they could be motivated, then the Anglo-Saxons would have gained a sufficiently large army of worthy fighters under arms.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        There can be no talk of any strategic aviation in Germany.

                        And from France with Belgium and Denmark?
                        In general, I read you and wonder how the Americans coped with the Japanese. Such they are also wild.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Generally no one. Dulles in Switzerland a tourist sitting.

                        In-in. Not capable of anything. And as soon as the whole world managed to tidy up their hands?
                        It seems to me that rabid anti-Americanism is not a problem.
                      13. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 31 December 2018 03: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: tti
                        Yah. All were

                        Yes Yes.
                        When Keitel stopped by Heinrich and Mantoifel to inquire where they went from Berlin, talked to him, holding on to a holster.
                        By the way, both are outstanding tactics, in contrast to Keitel’s slime oyster.
                        Quote: tti
                        French, Spaniards and Germans with Finns. Enough?

                        No.
                        Quote: tti
                        But they had serious problems with motivation. If they were able to motivate them, then the Anglo-Saxons would have gained a sufficiently large army of worthy fighters

                        Again rave. Real Americans were begging for General Giraud as a virgin to undress. AND didn't get it.
                        Real Americans couldn’t just motivate the Italians with detachments. They are accept surrender Italians could not. Not organize surrender but just take.
                        Quote: tti
                        And from France with Belgium and Denmark

                        No. One could still have come from Denmark, but nothing has been done for this. From France and Belgium - in no case. Belgium is too vulnerable; supply is too difficult in France.
                        Quote: tti
                        In general, I read you and wonder how the Americans coped with the Japanese.

                        GDP 1:20 approximately. They’re not so wild, they just didn’t know how to fight. But they were able to do much more, no less important.
                        For example, they could produce, bring to Europe and fire about three times as many shells (by weight) per 10 soldiers as the Red Army of the 44th year. At the same time, in the Red Army, most of the shots fell on your beloved ZiS-3, and the Americans had six-inches. They could mass produce radio tubes that can withstand an artillery shot.

                        They could arrange a radio interception and aerial reconnaissance so that Patton’s crazy cavalry raids in France weren’t so crazy. He knew that no one was on his open flanks. And if it flies into the boiler - Douglas is enough to supply it.

                        And much more. But in different ways. On that, the Americans beat the Japanese both in quantity, and in the quality of equipment, and in the training of military personnel, at least for the soldiers and junior officers. In Europe, only quantity and supply. They mastered the rink, but that's all they could. Pitting, maneuvering defense - no, this was not.

                        As a result, from shameful defeats, they came to shameful victories. The Japanese admiral, having received the telegram "the whole world is surprised," would have done hara-kiri right there on the spot, if you know what I mean.

                        Shameful. But the victories.

                        Quote: tti
                        In-in. Not capable of anything. And as soon as the whole world managed to tidy up their hands?

                        No way. In the 30s and beyond, file by file. Already in Mexico were socialists.

                        However. I never said that you can not speak even worse than the Americans. That is, they rarely performed well, but less often than others performed very poorly. Not in a military sense, but in general.

                        They learned to fight on land somewhere in the 80s for real. It's hard to understand at sea, too much meat.

                        Quote: tti
                        frantic anti-Americanism,

                        I am very far from frenzied anti-Americanism. I have claims only to the generals. Stupid, angry children. When they succeed, they become completely unbearable. When they get bashing, they take up the mind. But, since they are very well fed, they rarely get bashing. Americans are ready to learn from their victories very poorly, at least in those years.

                        Here is an important difference from your favorite Red Army / SV of the USSR. The Americans, having received the soup, really begin to learn, and do not forget the lessons. In our Palestinians, in such cases, it is customary to lie to yourself and others, the farther the thicker. As a result, every time - like the first time. If during the war experience still somehow accumulates, then after 10 years - a clean sheet. Afghanistan and Chechnya, for example.
                      14. TTi
                        TTi 31 December 2018 12: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        They could not accept the capitulation of the Italians. Do not organize surrender, but simply accept.

                        But somehow they accepted it.
                        And the surrender of the Germans accepted. Not the second one, organized by Zhukov with the participation of strange people. And the first, with the participation of specially authorized persons (they had a special collar).
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        They’re not so wild, they just didn’t know how to fight.

                        Maybe they didn’t know how, which I doubt very much.
                        But let's say the facts - the Britons repelled the world from the Spaniards in their favor?
                        Beat off. They repulsed the war, and then for many centuries they kept it behind them.
                        The Yankees have beaten off the world from the British, though not by war, but by economic competition.
                        I will not consider further, because the Yankees' world was repulsed by the British just in the course of 2MB.
                        This is to say that quite the Yankees, like the Britons (apples from the apple tree), could fight. And fight successfully.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Moreover, in the Red Army, most of the shots fell on your favorite ZiS-3

                        She is not my favorite, she is the favorite of Dzhugashvili. It was he who praised her all. True, her design is primitive, a little more complicated than a slingshot. And from this OFS, even in peacetime, almost none. And during the war, generally nikakuschy, 40% of the power of the level of peacetime (as 57 mm of peacetime). But he did ... liked it.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Shameful. But the victories.

                        Tell you the name of the country, which is often content with Pyrrhic victories? Which of an independent civilization (and I’m not joking) by including Pyrrhic victories turned into a relatively large, but ordinary country?
                        Judging by the final results and the number of losses, I don’t see anything shameful in American victories. And in their strategy and tactics, too.
                        The USA today (at the beginning of 2018) is economically, this is 31,0% of the whole world. In the presence of 4,3% of the world's population.
                        Britain, and in the early 40s it was comparable to the USA in the world, it is 3,1% of the whole world. In the presence of 0,9% of the world's population.
                        You need to drop personal hostility and admit that the United States has made a dizzying leap forward over the past century. Yes, maybe something was wrong with them. But the result is obvious, almost a third of the world today, this is the United States. With a not very significant percentage of the population.
                        As for "how they fought," you know my position, I see everything through the prism of losses. And based on this position, the United States fought in the 20th century perfectly.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        I am very far from frenzied anti-Americanism.

                        I noticed.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        I have claims only to the generals. Stupid, angry children.

                        Somewhere recently, someone quoted a proverb in this regard. It seems to me that it was even you.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        In our Palestinians, in such cases, it is customary to lie to yourself and others, the farther the thicker. As a result, every time - like the first time. If during the war experience still somehow accumulates, then after 10 years - a clean sheet.

                        Actually, we already agreed on this.
                      15. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 31 December 2018 15: 39
                        +1
                        Quote: tti
                        Somewhere recently, someone quoted a proverb in this regard.

                        Are you talking about "stupidity is not a crime"? This is Truman just about American generals.
                        Quote: tti
                        Tell you the name of the country, which is often content with Pyrrhic victories?

                        If you are talking about the USSR, then I do not like the USSR. It seems obvious. Therefore, "it was worse in the USSR" is not an argument for me.
                        Quote: tti
                        the result is obvious, almost a third of the world today, this is the United States.

                        You completely repeat the patient’s thought that the victory in the Second World War means that the Bolsheviks were right, and absolutely right in everything.
                        Quote: tti
                        She is not my favorite, she is the favorite of Dzhugashvili.

                        And do not care. It is significant that even a much larger relative to both the Red Army and the Germans, the tonnage of projectile consumption does not give an understanding of the power of American artillery. By far the strongest in the world for the 45th year.
                        Americans did something right.
                        Quote: tti
                        Maybe they didn’t know how, which I doubt very much.

                        Quote: tti
                        I consider everything through the prism of losses. And based on this position, the United States fought at 20 in fine.

                        Well, look for where the Americans exchanged with the Germans 1: 1 on the deadwithout prisoners. This is in conditions of overwhelming quantitative and economic superiority.
                        Yes, they fought very well for the Volkssturm. The soldiers have something to be proud of. Generals - no.
                        Quote: tti
                        But somehow they accepted it.

                        When the Duce was removed, the Germans believed that Kesselring would end in a week, well, two. Kesselring (later Fittingh) fought for almost two years.

                        To make the achievement of the Americans more understandable. Try to estimate the fire performance (not to be confused with the number of trunks) of some second-rate KR, Brooklyn there, or Atlanta, in the equivalent of RVGK brigades. Taking into account the ship's OMS.
                        Quote: tti
                        the surrender of the Germans took

                        Surrender at Reims leaves questions. She was either stupidity, or cowardice, or treason. From Eisenhower.
                        I think, after all, more stupidity, less cowardice, this is the most economical explanation.
                        The fact that she was a crime (Aiki threatened to close the front line for refugees and resume the bombing, that is, destroy the civilian population) does not raise questions.
                      16. TTi
                        TTi 31 December 2018 19: 35
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        This Truman is about American generals.

                        American generals were not alone.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        You completely repeat the patient’s thought that the victory in the Second World War means that the Bolsheviks were right, and absolutely right in everything.

                        No, why are you doing this?
                        Where is the USA today and where is the brainchild of the Bolsheviks of the USSR today?
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Well, look for where the Americans exchanged with the Germans 1: 1 for the dead

                        Not on the Eastern Front (on all other fronts) the Germans lost 1,7 million dead. At the same time, I NOW do not know exactly (and look for laziness) how much the Germans lost precisely on the Western Front.
                        However, it is known for certain that the Americans lost 108 people not against the Japanese (on other fronts).
                        In any disagreements, I think that their losses in Europe were much less than German.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        When the Duce was removed, the Germans believed that Kesselring would end in a week, well, two. Kesselring (later Fittingh) fought for almost two years.

                        The Americans blocked the German contingent in Italy and calmly waited for its surrender. This contingent could not leave, they bombed the road. This is a very competent tactic.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The fact that she was a crime (Aiki threatened to close the front line for refugees and resume the bombing, that is, destroy the civilian population) does not raise questions.

                        Crime is the destruction of civilians. Talking about it is not a crime. This is just idle chatter.
                      17. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 31 December 2018 21: 55
                        +1
                        Quote: tti
                        American generals were not alone.

                        Who would argue.
                        Quote: tti
                        Where is the USA today and where is the brainchild of the Bolsheviks of the USSR today?

                        And what does the current USA have to do with events of 80 years ago?
                        By the way, the current USA is also not a paradise on earth.
                        Quote: tti
                        In any disagreements, I think that their losses in Europe were much less than German.

                        No. They could not exchange stably with the Germans 1: 1 until the very end. General losses - due to prisoners and non-combatants among Germans and relatively low sanitary losses among Americans - yes, significantly lower.
                        Your figure is 1.7 million. fighting of losses killed (100-200 divisions at the root) is absolutely fantastic for the Western Front 44-45 years.
                        Quote: tti
                        what is not against the japanese

                        With the Japanese fought mainly the ILC. Its two first divisions were formed at the beginning of the 41st from the regiments of the ILC of the formation of the PMV. By the end of the war there were only 6 divisions. Most of the operations took place on a scale comfortable for the Americans no higher than the division, in which their lack of normal headquarters was not so noticeable. Therefore, already in the 42nd, they could well wash the Japanese with blood when the opportunity presented itself. The 1: 1 exchange was considered a disaster, this is during an air assault operation, the most difficult of all types of databases.
                        The army in the 41st deployed 65, EMNIP, divisions of 4. That is, the division was not even deployed from a battalion - from a company. The quality of such divisions in terms of training officers, foremen and sergeants, I think, is understandable. But Marshall did not stop there, and by the 45th year he had put under arms the people of 600 divisions tentatively.

                        A huge, uncontrollable, useless herd.

                        In such a situation, the role of the individual is very great. Where the islands of adequacy remained - in the same artillery - it turned out to convert technological and industrial power, the highest quality of the draft contingent, the highest general management culture - into combat readiness. Due to these islands and luck, it was possible, basically, to avoid the massacre, which the Americans quite deserved for their approach to business.
                        Quote: tti
                        The Americans blocked the German contingent in Italy and calmly waited for its surrender.

                        The Americans were unable to block the German contingent even on the island of Sicily. In Italy, they pierced a wall with their head for 2 years. Arranged their Rzhev, for the significant difference that they did not spend l / s, but ammunition.
                        Quote: tti
                        Crime is the destruction of civilians. Talking about it is not a crime. This is just idle chatter.

                        Yes, he was joking. Who will believe that the Allies will bomb the cities. This has never happened before.
                      18. TTi
                        TTi 1 January 2019 13: 12
                        +1
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        And what does the current USA have to do with events of 80 years ago?

                        Are these different states?
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        By the way, the current USA is also not a paradise on earth.

                        And who argues with this? He is not anywhere.
                        Only in the DPRK is. And he was in the USSR. In ruined heads. And so, yes, nowhere.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Your figure of 1.7 million combat losses killed (100-200 divisions at the root) is absolutely fantastic for the Western Front 44-45 years.

                        This is not my number. This is the Overmans figure. It is considered correct. Moreover, it is disputed in a smaller direction (the total loss figure is 5,3 million people, by 900 thousand people, up to 4,4 million people).
                        It (1,7 million people) included absolutely all the losses of German military personnel in all places except the Eastern Front. Poland (1939), Norway, Africa, Italy, France, etc. including military losses from carpet bombing of Germany by the Allies. In short, everything except the Eastern Front.
                        On the Eastern Front, the Germans lost another 3,6 million people (these are only military men and only German Germans).
                        And there were still Austrians, Sudeten Germans, Alsatians, etc. They were citizens of the Reich and were also called up to the Wehrmacht. But they are taken into account in the losses of their countries.
                      19. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 1 January 2019 16: 21
                        0
                        Quote: tti
                        Are these different states?

                        Yes.
                        The present, by the way, is not what is more recent; the army has made the best in the world. Compare the 91st year with the Polish Blitzkrieg or Manchuria, for example.
                        Quote: tti
                        He is nowhere

                        Nevertheless, the USA in most indicators characterizing the quality of life (health care, education, crime, the spread of poverty, etc.) is the worst of the white colonies (Ireland, Canada, Australia, N.Zelandia). Especially given the high GDP per person.
                        In something, for example, in criminal law, they are generally closer to Russia than to the countries mentioned.
                        Quote: tti
                        It (1,7 million people) included absolutely all the losses of the German military,

                        This figure does not say anything about the capabilities of the armies themselves. The Japanese will also have an excellent score, if we count the entire sphere of co-prosperity with China.
                      20. TTi
                        TTi 1 January 2019 16: 35
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The present, by the way, is not what is more recent; the army has made the best in the world. Compare the 91st year with the Polish Blitzkrieg or Manchuria, for example.

                        I am already confused in your statements. belay
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Nevertheless, the USA in most indicators characterizing the quality of life (health care, education, crime, the spread of poverty, etc.) is the worst of the white colonies (Ireland, Canada, Australia, N.Zelandia). Especially given the high GDP per person.

                        So I did not argue with you about this.
                        USA, this is a neo-empire. Yes, she managed to transform under modern conditions, which in many ways she defines. And due to this, self-preservation.
                        But the end of the USA is quite predictable and unequivocal, this is a collapse.
                        The same applies to China. And Britain.
                        I am not saying that it will be tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. But it will be in any case.
                        therefore potentially the most powerful state today is .... France. And the richest, Japan.
                        However, this does not include any of the stable fragments of the United States. Yes, and England (a fragment of Britain), I would not discount too.
                      21. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 1 January 2019 17: 19
                        0
                        Quote: tti
                        I'm already confused in your statements

                        What's so complicated?
                        America of the 30-40s is Russia of the late 90s of the early 00s. Corruption, brothers, embezzlement, Putin is the president for life (although in the beginning few people know about it). There is no army as such.

                        Today's America is a completely different matter. In something better, in something worse, but different.

                        Applied to the army. In the 91st, Americans split up about the same force grouping as the Polish or Kwantung armies. Having lost two orders of magnitude less combat than the Wehrmacht in the 39th, the Red Army in the 45th, or they themselves - in Korea. What happens when one side is superior to the other by 1-2 generations in absolutely all aspects of military power.
                        Quote: tti
                        the end of the USA is quite predictable and unambiguous,

                        Do not read Soviet newspapers before dinner. Federalism is strength, not weakness.
                      22. TTi
                        TTi 1 January 2019 18: 36
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Do not read Soviet newspapers before dinner. Federalism is strength, not weakness.

                        I am not talking about that.
                        So I'll look at this power when a roasted cock in the ass pecks. And he pecks, sooner or later, the gingerbread for all will end.
                        People in times of misfortune quickly find distinctive signs in their midst. And on their basis they easily determine who is their own and who is a stranger.
                        In the United States, these signs are not needed. They are here, always at hand.
                      23. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 22: 00
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Pro-Soviet nonsense and anti-Soviet nonsense - they are very similar.

                        Unlike most users of this site, I consider the Red Army and the SA from the very beginning and up to the beginning of the 60s to be limited combat capable.
                        It is more difficult with the period 1941-45, when the Red Army gained victories mainly due to the expense of mobilizing potential and Lend-Lease deliveries. Without these factors, in these years, the Red Army would have been just as youthful as in other years.
                        Those. we have a factor of increased consumption of mobilization potential in 1941-45, which in 1945 was already very limited.
                        And the factor of Lend-Lease deliveries, which could be blocked at any time. As happened in the autumn of 1945, and in 1946, a famine occurred in the USSR.
                        The presence of these factors allowed in 1941-45. defeat the main forces of the Germans (2/3 of the victims they have accounted for on the Eastern Front). But starting from 1945, these advantages were either almost completely exhausted (mobility potential), or could be blocked (Lend-Lease).
                        As for the period from the beginning of the 60s, if we remove the factor of nuclear weapons, the SA (conventional armed forces) was in exactly the same state of disability as usual. And everything rested on nuclear parity.
                        Therefore, rumors about the "UCHNO USSR" are greatly exaggerated. Yes, the USSR could theoretically destroy a country since the beginning of the 60s (practically could not, since the conclave of old penduns, the Politburo of the CPSU Central Committee, was very cowardly). But, no, he could not (see Afghanistan).
                        And I do not see where the "anti-Soviet delirium" lies here. This is an objective reality. If we discard all the husk of Sovagitprop, then it really was.
                    2. Yuriy_999
                      Yuriy_999 30 December 2018 18: 46
                      0
                      The Bundes did not exist by 1946, nor did the French army as such. And the French would not have fought in the USSR in 46.
                      1. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 19: 55
                        0
                        Quote: Yuri_999
                        The Bundes did not exist by 1946

                        They could easily exist.
                        Quote: Yuri_999
                        the French army as such too.

                        It would be more difficult to make the French fight. But Americans are savvy people. They would come up with something.
                        Quote: Yuri_999
                        And the French would not have fought in the USSR in 46.

                        It depends on motivation. For example, the United States would decide to divide France in 1946 into 5 parts. Or 6. Or 7.
                        And then, they would immediately want to.
                      2. Yuriy_999
                        Yuriy_999 30 December 2018 23: 26
                        0
                        Or along with the USSR they gave the USA a neck
                      3. TTi
                        TTi 31 December 2018 00: 42
                        -1
                        Quote: Yuri_999
                        Or along with the USSR they gave the USA a neck

                        This is already from fiction.
        2. TTi
          TTi 30 December 2018 14: 10
          0
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          From this point of view, Germany was a natural ally of the United States, and Britain and France (and Japan) were natural opponents.

          Germany with the swift rout of France in 1940 frightened the Americans.
          With Britain everything was clear, she slowly chased and prepared to transfer the rod of the owners of the planet Earth to the Americans. And they were ready to accept it.
          Therefore, in 1940, the Americans saw competitors in the Germans. And just in case, they decided to dunk them. Therefore, they helped (not justly) Britain. Which, as the owner of the Earth, was already hopeless.
          As for Japan, in the 30s of the last century it came out of British influence. And she behaved in the territories that are gradually being spanned by the Americans, too greyhound, in their opinion. Therefore, it was sanctioned.
          The Americans expected Japan to surrender. She gave up. But not immediately, but through Pearl Harbor, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          As a result, former Soviet friends by the 60s began to pose the greatest threat to the United States since the Napoleonic Wars.

          I would say с 60's. When the fruits of Yangel's work arrived in time.
          1. Avior
            Avior 30 December 2018 14: 45
            +1
            It was possible to "dunk" the Germans in different ways.
            it is possible as it was done, but it is possible, as Senator Truman suggested, to make the front in the East even more destructive for both sides.
            So, for example, so that the front stabilizes somewhere along the Dnieper and maintain in this state for a long time, regulating it with supplies or the intensity of the bombing of Germany.
            1. TTi
              TTi 30 December 2018 15: 11
              -1
              Quote: Avior
              make the front in the East even more destructive for both sides.

              You forget that the interests of the Americans were not limited to Germany. They also needed the Red Army for landing on the Japanese islands. If the Red Army all lay down in Germany, then who would land in Japan?
              - that nobody knew by the fall of 1945 that the Americans would make the atomic bomb.
              - Of the Chinese, traditionally bad warriors.
              - Americans would not land there for any pies. For it is a loss. So, the option does not fit.
              1. Avior
                Avior 30 December 2018 15: 17
                +1
                Honestly, in the summer of 1941, too, no one could plan a landing in Japan, since it attacked only in December.
                and even then, the landing was far, other problems
                1. TTi
                  TTi 30 December 2018 15: 34
                  -1
                  Quote: Avior
                  to be honest, in the summer of 1941 no one could even plan a landing in Japan

                  I wrote about the beginning of 1945.
                  If you are talking about Lend-Lease, then it was he who contributed to such a number of losses of the USSR. Without him, in the spring of 1942, there would have been no one to fight. And nothing. The USSR would capitulate.
                  Lend-lease was very beneficial to the Americans. The gold mine that solved many of their problems in Europe and the world.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 30 December 2018 15: 36
                    +1
                    Of course, about land lease.
                    Truman did not offer the victory of Germany, he offered maximum damage to both Germany and the USSR.
                    1. TTi
                      TTi 30 December 2018 15: 45
                      -1
                      Quote: Avior
                      Truman did not offer the victory of Germany, he offered maximum damage to both Germany and the USSR.

                      This, of course. But all the same, given the fact that the USSR had forces left on Japan.
                      1. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 15: 54
                        0
                        at the time when they decided what the land lease would be, the landing factor in Japan was absent.
                        And as for 1945, the USSR was not required strength and resources, but only people.
                        The Americans themselves would have armed them and provided the landing forces with the necessary resources for this specific task.
                      2. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 15: 57
                        -1
                        Quote: Avior
                        the landing factor in Japan was absent.

                        Just attended. He became absent after Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
                        Quote: Avior
                        And as for 1945, the USSR was not required strength and resources, but only people.

                        And people, this is food and weapons. That is what the USA provided for the USSR.
                        Quote: Avior
                        The Americans themselves would have armed them and provided the landing forces with the necessary resources for this specific task.

                        They armed them. But not in a direct, indirect way.
              2. Avior
                Avior 30 December 2018 15: 19
                0
                and besides, they could do without landing, just agree with Japan on some conditions, the Japanese agreed.
                Yes, and the Soviet Union could and would not agree to the landing, in 1941 this was not specified, and Japan and the USSR had a nonaggression pact
                1. TTi
                  TTi 30 December 2018 15: 39
                  -2
                  Quote: Avior
                  and besides, they could do without landing, just agree with Japan on some conditions, the Japanese agreed.

                  The Japanese became accommodating after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And before that, only a landing was required. With the colossal losses of the paratroopers. And no options.
                  Quote: Avior
                  And the USSR could and would not agree to the landing,

                  And who would ask him?
                  Moreover, he agreed. He entered the war with Japan. And the landing operation has already begun.
                  Quote: Avior
                  in 1941 it was not specified

                  But when Europe was divided, it even made a reservation.
                  Quote: Avior
                  and Japan had a nonaggression pact with the USSR

                  If you wanted to make fun, then make fun.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 30 December 2018 15: 45
                    0
                    I'm talking about the summer-fall of 1941.
                    The factor of Japan can simply be ruled out.
                    1. TTi
                      TTi 30 December 2018 15: 49
                      0
                      Quote: Avior
                      I'm talking about the summer-fall of 1941.
                      The factor of Japan can simply be ruled out.

                      It is impossible. Japan was already an enemy of the United States (blockade). It’s just that their conflict had not yet developed into a hot stage. But it was a matter of time. And they had to somehow solve this issue.
                      As practice has shown, the Chinese were Americans bad helpers in this. Better candidates than the USSR, can not be found.
                      1. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 16: 00
                        0
                        the enemy - and the landing in Japan - are very different things.
                      2. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 17: 13
                        0
                        Quote: Avior
                        the enemy - and the landing in Japan - are very different things.

                        And what do you think, why did the USA blockade the USA?
                        The war was already going on, but it had not yet developed into an acute phase.
              3. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 15: 22
                0
                Quote: tti
                They also needed the Red Army for landing on the Japanese islands.

                Get involved with drugs.
                Quote: tti
                Americans would not land there for any pies. For it is a loss

                Americans' fear of loss is greatly exaggerated.
                Quote: tti
                who would land in Japan?

                The Americans have nowhere to rush.
                1. Avior
                  Avior 30 December 2018 15: 30
                  0
                  Americans, if they thought it necessary, of course, would land. just the loss of the japanese was colossal
                  1. TTi
                    TTi 30 December 2018 15: 46
                    -1
                    Quote: Avior
                    Americans, if they thought it necessary, of course, would land. just the loss of the japanese was colossal

                    Are the Americans small?
                    No, the Americans are colossal too. Therefore, they needed the USSR back in the spring of 1945. It was for the landing in Japan. And after the surrender of Japan, the need for the USSR disappeared. And the United States did not care about the opinion of the USSR on the text of the surrender of Japan.
                    1. Avior
                      Avior 30 December 2018 15: 58
                      0
                      after the war, Stalin went into a rage and demanded to himself that which had not been agreed in advance.
                      If they had done according to Truman in 1941, then the Soviet landing, armed and equipped with the Americans and completely dependent on them, would have fought in Japan, and the Allies would have freed Europe from Poland from Poland completely destroyed by the war by the Germans, which the Germans would have been glad of.
                      Stalin would simply have no options.
                      1. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 16: 07
                        -1
                        Quote: Avior
                        after the war, Stalin went into a rage and demanded to himself that which had not been agreed in advance.

                        This is an exaggeration. Although he was illiterate, he was far from stupid and cunning.
                        Quote: Avior
                        and Europe across Poland from the Germans completely destroyed by the war would have been liberated by the Allies, for which the Germans would have been glad.

                        They didn't even think about it. No, the Anglo-Saxons were never cannon fodder. For this they had native "allies".
                        Quote: Avior
                        Stalin would simply have no options.

                        Dzhugashvili had a lot of options. But he chose the most profitable for him (for him personally). That is why on September 24.09.1941, XNUMX, he entered the war on the side of the Anglo-Saxons. Although at first he planned to deal with Germany on his own.
                        That is why, before July-August 1941, Dzhugashvili would not have reacted to American proposals in any way. Until that time, he was confident in the success of the Red Army.
                      2. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 21: 35
                        +1
                        Quote: Avior
                        Europe across Poland from the Germans completely destroyed by the war would have been liberated by the Allies, for which the Germans would have been glad.

                        The United States in the 40s did not have an army in the current sense of the word. Eight-month privates, no sergeants, no officers, no headquarters. The militia, not the army, I talked about this.
                        They could not take such a risk as a war with Germany on one front. Do not confuse the US 42nd, 45th, and 91st.
                2. TTi
                  TTi 30 December 2018 15: 43
                  -1
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Get involved with drugs.

                  Not one of those.
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Americans' fear of loss is greatly exaggerated.

                  Not at all. Americans value their own people just like the Britons. Therefore, they agree to minor sacrifices. But not more.
                  The assault on the Japanese islands is no longer a minor sacrifice.
                  From the Chinese in this sense it would not be enough.
                  Therefore, in addition to the Red Army, there was no one to do this.
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  The Americans have nowhere to rush.

                  Hinting at a blockade?
                  It's useless. The blockade of Japan could last decades. And without any sense.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 30 December 2018 15: 48
                    +1
                    would prepare suitable means, Japan would simply be methodically demolished from the face of the earth together with the population, if not by aviation, but by artillery, the losses from the paratroopers would be great, but among the Japanese, they would be colossal.
                    1. TTi
                      TTi 30 December 2018 15: 51
                      0
                      Quote: Avior
                      would prepare suitable means, Japan would simply be methodically demolished from the face of the earth together with the population, if not by aviation, but by artillery, the losses from the paratroopers would be great, but among the Japanese, they would be colossal.

                      And why is it so expensive and long, if there was a USSR, its lured owner Dzhugashvili and the Red Army?
                      What, did the Americans feel sorry for Paul Sakhalin?
                      1. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 16: 03
                        +1
                        you do not understand, I am writing about the fact that Truman proposed that both Germany and the USSR withdraw from the war much more exhausted than it actually was.
                        This would not hinder the landing in Yaonia of the Soviet, but completely dependent on the Americans, troops, on the contrary, it guaranteed that they would leave Japan later.
                      2. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 16: 12
                        -1
                        Quote: Avior
                        This would not hinder the landing in Yaonia of the Soviet, but completely dependent on the Americans, troops, on the contrary, it guaranteed that they would leave Japan later.

                        Since the end of 1943, the USSR has experienced problems with mobility potential. By the beginning of 1945, there was generally a catastrophe in this regard in the USSR. That is why Poles, Romanians, Czechs, Bulgarians and, in general, were armed and put up against the Germans.
                        Therefore, the USSR in 1945 was at the limit. I’m not even sure that the USSR in 1945 would have had the strength in Japan. But I think. would be enough. The Yankees would help with aviation and more.
                        But about staying, these are pipes.
                        Oh, how the USSR wanted to stay in Iran, and the Britons (not even the Yankees) shouted, and the USSR made legs from there.
                      3. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 16: 21
                        0
                        if it were to follow Truman, Germany would have much less potential for resistance, and the Allies would take the place of Soviet troops in Europe, and the USSR would provide people from Europe to storm Japan, under the control of the Americans.
                        USSR after the war still wanted straits, Libya and troops in Austria
                      4. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 16: 34
                        -1
                        Quote: Avior
                        if it went according to Truman

                        It is not worth discussing how and what could (or could not) be.
                        Quote: Avior
                        USSR after the war still wanted straits, Libya and troops in Austria

                        I generally wonder how he got something. And as he was not thrown after the surrender of Japan.
                      5. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 16: 38
                        0
                        why not worth it?
                        it’s worth making out what choice the United States has and what they have chosen
                      6. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 17: 00
                        0
                        Quote: Avior
                        it’s worth making out what choice the United States has and what they have chosen

                        Maybe.
                      7. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 16: 33
                        +1
                        Quote: tti
                        why so expensive and long

                        Not so expensive, not so long. By the summer of the 45th, the strength of TF38 / 58 was such that they blocked not only the external, but also the internal Japanese sea routes. There they will start to eat each other from day to day.

                        And about the complaisance of the Japanese and AB - take a look at the list of Japanese prime ministers. Find out why they changed so many times in the 45th year.
                      8. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 16: 35
                        -1
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        There they will start to eat each other from day to day.

                        No, in terms of food, Japan is self-sufficient.
                      9. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 16: 40
                        0
                        fuel and other resources
                        some kind of chemistry would be sprayed on rice fields.
                      10. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 17: 01
                        -2
                        Quote: Avior
                        fuel and other resources
                        some kind of chemistry would be sprayed on rice fields.

                        This time. And time is money.
                        Why is it so difficult if there is a red army?
                      11. Avior
                        Avior 30 December 2018 17: 02
                        0
                        I do not mind, I write that the human resource factor of the Red Army is not worth absolutizing.
                        would have managed without it if necessary
                      12. TTi
                        TTi 30 December 2018 17: 12
                        -1
                        Quote: Avior
                        would have managed without it if necessary

                        Of course. In an extreme case, the Chinese would drop there. But the Red Army would be faster and cheaper.
      2. TTi
        TTi 30 December 2018 13: 59
        -1
        Quote: Avior
        Our happiness is that Roosevelt was able to convince American lawmakers that it was the USSR that needed help

        Not sure.
  12. ccsr
    ccsr 29 December 2018 11: 07
    +3
    A very interesting article, it is worth paying attention to everyone who is interested in the history of communications troops. Of course, if you discard subjective phrases, like
    And after stuffing the Baltic states into the USSR in the summer of 1940
    , it turned out solid material on Lend-Lease. True, the authors slightly went too far in matters of assessing wired communications, because the range of telephone communications without compaction equipment is too small to establish serious control of troops from a division and above. And as you know, the first hardware long-distance communications with us appeared only in 1942, which means that radio communication was the main one in the most difficult years of the war.
    Well, I will not mention the main advantage of radio communications during the offensive - experts understand what’s the matter.
    Somehow in the seventies I caught the eye of the American Lend-Lease apparatus (as its owner at least claimed) and what was interesting there were the MB, Central Bank and automatic telephone exchange regimes. I would like to know from the authors whether they know something about such a product, and whether information about their deliveries to the USSR came across.
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 29 December 2018 13: 15
      +2
      Quote: ccsr
      True, the authors slightly went too far in matters of assessing wired communications, because the range of telephone communications without compaction equipment is too small to establish serious control of troops from a division and above.

      Let not much disagree. Sealing equipment is primarily intended for what? To seal one TLF with several TLF channels, and using secondary compaction equipment and TLG channels. Roughly speaking, when working on a cable in 4-wire mode, we can form a different number of channels, depending on the used packing ap. But for the organization of high-quality wired communication, it is required to set either OUP or NUP through a certain distance. The same fixed switches why did they have some of the slots in MB mode? It’s just that some of the subscribers were at considerable distances, for example, at the same airfield, various headquarters services are located in the Central Bank, and for example, BPRM and DPRM are already in MB, the battery in the TLF of the MB device seemed to act as an amplification point. This, of course, I simplistically told. There you had to put your gadgets, the same extension cords to establish the appropriate level of the received signal, and transfer 2 wires to 4, and vice versa, and interfacing the radio channel with the wire, and others. The organization of wired communication only seems simple, and so much interesting. Everyone heard a simple example, fiber, fast Internet, etc., but the bulk do not even realize that the Internet enters their apartment through a simple twisted pair cable, through two simple copper wires ...
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 29 December 2018 14: 33
        +2
        Quote: Fitter65
        Let not much disagree. Sealing equipment is primarily intended for what?

        In 1975, I defended my diploma in the development of field 30-channel long-distance communication equipment with D-PCM modulation, so I know "what they eat it with" because of my VUS. But even this does not allow me to ignore certain advantages of radio communications, especially in military affairs, and not notice certain disadvantages of wired communication systems during the conduct of hostilities, although in peacetime it is certainly preferable to use wired multi-channel communication systems.
        Quote: Fitter65
        but the bulk do not even realize that the Internet enters their apartment through a simple twisted pair cable, through two simple copper wires ...

        This is not entirely true, because in Moscow, for example, MGTS brings fiber optic directly into an apartment, while other operators usually use an eight-wire cable to wire the Internet and TV from their racks to a modem or directly to a PC. But they bring optical fiber to their racks, so they use "copper" only for wiring around the house, and even then they will soon abandon this because of the high cost.
        1. Fitter65
          Fitter65 29 December 2018 14: 49
          +2
          Quote: ccsr
          In 1975, I defended my diploma in the development of field 30-channel long-distance communication equipment with D-PCM modulation, so I know "what they eat it with" because of my VUS.

          I’m not even trying to argue with you on this issue, I just clarified that there are range limitations for compaction equipment, and different amplification points are used to increase it.
          Quote: ccsr
          But even this does not allow me to ignore certain advantages of radio communications, especially in military affairs, and not to notice certain disadvantages of wired communication systems during combat operations,

          I also can’t disagree, since I used the sealing equipment in conjunction with various RRS, such as R-409MA, R-410 and R-412, as well as with the R-151M remote control equipment, basically it was not killable P-303, well, and P-304 in conjunction with the P-410.
          Quote: ccsr
          This is not entirely true, because in Moscow, for example, MGTS drives optical fiber directly into the apartment, while other operators usually use an eight-wire cable to wire the Internet and TV from their racks to the modem or directly to the PC

          Well, we do not have Moscow, for example, I have a connection to the house not via fiber optics, but through a simple copper 50-park. which we, military signalmen, laid in the 90th. I have wiring from the closet on the first floor to me on the fifth simple twisted pair cable ... Although many in Komsomolsk also have optical fiber in their apartment ...
      2. Yuriy_999
        Yuriy_999 30 December 2018 19: 07
        0
        twisted pair is usually not two wiring, and optics usually go to an apartment building
    2. TTi
      TTi 30 December 2018 14: 31
      -2
      Quote: ccsr
      Of course, if you discard subjective phrases, like
      And after stuffing the Baltic states into the USSR in the summer of 1940

      The Baltic states (and other pre-war territorial acquisitions of the USSR) were actually included in the USSR in 1945 in Yalta. Then France was recognized as one of the 4 main winners of Germany. For pre-war territorial acquisitions had to pay.
      1. ccsr
        ccsr 30 December 2018 14: 41
        0
        Quote: tti
        The Baltic states (and other pre-war territorial acquisitions of the USSR) were actually included in the USSR in 1945 in Yalta.

        This is not entirely true, because the entry of the Baltic republics took place before 1941, according to the decision of local elected bodies:
        In the elections in all three states, the victory was won by the pro-communist Blocs (Unions) of the working people (in fact, the only electoral lists allowed for the elections). The newly elected parliaments, on July 21-22, proclaimed the creation of the Estonian SSR, the Latvian SSR and the Lithuanian SSR and adopted the Declaration on Entry into the USSR. On August 3-6, 1940, in accordance with the decisions, these republics were accepted into the Soviet Union.

        As for France, it was at Stalin's insistence that she was included in the list of the winners, which the United States and Great Britain opposed. So there was no "exchange" or "reckoning", but there were realities, and which Stalin skillfully used.
        1. TTi
          TTi 30 December 2018 15: 07
          -4
          Quote: ccsr
          because the entry of the Baltic republics took place before 1941, according to the decision of local elected bodies:

          Everyone wanted to sneeze on these pieces of paper.
          Only in 1945 (in Yalta) did the Anglo-Saxons surrender to the USSR the Baltic states and all territories conquered before the war. And not for nothing.
          Quote: ccsr
          As for France, it was at the insistence of Stalin that it was included in the list of winners, which the USA and Great Britain opposed.

          Nonsense. Everyone needed France. In order to explain why the USSR received such a small occupation zone (1/4 is clearly less than 1/3). After all, a deal in the Baltic states, etc. not advertised.
          Moreover, "Stalin's insistence" was just an empty phrase for the Anglo-Saxons. The squeak of the mouse in the corner of the closet.
          Quote: ccsr
          So there was no "exchange" or "reckoning", but there were realities, and which Stalin skillfully used.

          The last question they asked was Dzhugashvili.
          The USSR would not have received anything in Europe at all except a kick in the ass, if it had not been required for the landing and the subsequent assault on Japan. After all, no one in Potsdam (and even more so, in Yalta) knew that the United States would make atomic bombs and Japan would surrender.
          And who was supposed to land on the Japanese islands and there "break the back of the Japanese beast," guess?
          And after Japan's surrender, "Stalin's insistence" according to the text of Japan's surrender turned into the fact that the USSR was simply sent on a free voyage. Because there was no longer any need for him.
          And the "Moscow USSR" could not conclude a peace treaty with Japan. Although he was, according to the Soviets, a superpower. Well done among the sheep.
          1. Yuriy_999
            Yuriy_999 30 December 2018 19: 13
            0
            And why couldn't this "sheep" be moved out of Europe for forty years?
            1. TTi
              TTi 30 December 2018 20: 03
              -1
              Quote: Yuri_999
              And why couldn't this "sheep" be moved out of Europe for forty years?

              Until the 60s for some reason they didn’t itch. And I don’t understand why.
              And since the 60s, it has become deadly.
              But the fact that the USSR did not conclude a peace treaty with Japan on its own terms was cowardice. The cowardice of the highest bonzes of the USSR. They were afraid of war. They were afraid of green diarrhea.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 22: 42
                0
                Quote: tti
                Until the 60s for some reason they didn’t itch. And I don’t understand why.

                Americans live in two-year election cycles. In this perspective, the war with the USSR does not justify itself. If Roosevelt had been a "normal" president - who knows how things would have gone.
                A failure in strategy is a constant misfortune of the Americans, no matter what the conspiracy theorists write.

                Here the case of Bush and Clinton is very characteristic. Having defeated the USSR, they had no idea what to do now.

                It was read that Clinton allegedly lamented what happened on September 11 under the cowboy Bush. Well, I would supposedly ache as he would stand in such a number of great presidents.

                This was allegedly said by the man who accepted Russia with soha Gaidar, but left with Putin.
                1. TTi
                  TTi 30 December 2018 22: 58
                  0
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Americans live in two-year electoral cycles. In this perspective, the war with the USSR does not justify itself. Spent in the strategy - a constant misfortune of the Americans, whatever conspiracy theorists would write there.

                  Of course, I can’t know for sure. But I’m almost sure that the presidents do not decide a lot of things in the USA. And those who actually decide are not elected. And not the presidents. And not for 4 years.
                  A country that economically accounts for 31,0% of the whole world (for comparison, China, second place, is 10,9%, and Russia 0,4%) cannot be controlled spontaneously by random people in general. Therefore, the presidents in the United States, in my opinion, are not random people.
                  There are overlays, of course. The same Kennedy. Or today's Trump. But I doubt his second presidential term. Although this guy is far from simple, everything can be.
          2. ccsr
            ccsr 30 December 2018 23: 05
            0
            Quote: tti
            Everyone wanted to sneeze on these pieces of paper.
            Only in 1945 (in Yalta) did the Anglo-Saxons surrender to the USSR the Baltic states and all territories conquered before the war. And not for nothing.

            Here Stalin sneezed at all the pieces of paper and the opinions of other countries in 1939-1940, and did the right thing.
            Quote: tti
            Nonsense. Everyone needed France. In order to explain why the USSR received such a small occupation zone (1/4 is clearly less than 1/3).

            Nonsense - Stalin could personally resist this in Yalta, and no one would dare to object to him. Especially the Americans who needed the Red Army for the war with Japan.

            Quote: tti
            Moreover, "Stalin's insistence" was just an empty phrase for the Anglo-Saxons. The squeak of the mouse in the corner of the closet.

            Tell this tale in a sandbox.
            Quote: tti
            The USSR would not have received anything in Europe at all except a kick in the ass, if it had not been required for the landing and the subsequent assault on Japan.

            Well, why then in Berlin did not sign the surrender of only the United States, England and France? By the way, you yourself refute your fabrications, claiming about a mouse, and at the same time claiming that it was difficult for Americans to fight Japan without us. Where is the logic, since they were so cool?
            Quote: tti
            And after Japan's surrender, "Stalin's insistence" according to the text of Japan's surrender turned into the fact that the USSR was simply sent on a free voyage.

            This is exactly what allowed us to get four islands and half of Sakhalin for eternity. Otherwise, in the nineties, they would have to withdraw their troops from these territories, like from the GSVG. You simply have not matured to an understanding of Stalin's providence, which speaks best of all about the "quality" of your slogans.
            1. TTi
              TTi 30 December 2018 23: 17
              -2
              Quote: ccsr
              Here Stalin sneezed at all the pieces of paper and the opinions of other countries in 1939-1940, and did the right thing.

              No. For this, then I had to pay with the blood of Soviet citizens. And if not for 2MV in the USSR, everything would have to be returned. With interest.
              Dzhugashvili was not one of those who had the opportunity to spit on pieces of paper. To do this, you need to rise strong enough in the world.
              Quote: ccsr
              Stalin could personally resist this in Yalta, and no one would dare to object to him.

              In this case, the conference in Yalta would continue without him. And he would have sat on the stool in the hallway. Pitifully whining.
              Dzhugashvili could not object to the Anglo-Saxons. I didn’t have such an opportunity.
              Quote: ccsr
              Especially the Americans who needed the Red Army for the war with Japan.

              Needed, it is. But everything needed a measure. And the Americans, they would have managed in the Chinese case as a last resort.
              Quote: ccsr
              Tell this tale in a sandbox.

              Better for you. Maybe you can penetrate and understand what statue Dzhugashvili had in 1945 in Yalta.
              Quote: ccsr
              Well, why then in Berlin did not sign the surrender of only the United States, England and France?

              Well it's written right there.
              Quote: ccsr
              This just allowed us to get four islands and half of Sakhalin for eternal times.

              Yes?
              Quote: ccsr
              And in the nineties it would have been necessary to withdraw its troops from these territories, as from the GSVG.

              Are you confusing anything?
              Quote: ccsr
              You simply have not grown to understand Stalin’s providence

              I meant your illiterate "seer".
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 31 December 2018 11: 09
                0
                Quote: tti
                No. For this, then I had to pay with the blood of Soviet citizens.

                This is demagogy, because in the nineties without Stalin we lost a huge part of the country and millions of people who died and died prematurely for various reasons, i.e. such losses of peacetime under the leader and was not close.
                Quote: tti
                In this case, the conference in Yalta would continue without him.

                And in Tehran too?
                Maybe you should not fantasize so primitively?
                Quote: tti
                And the Americans, they would have managed in the Chinese case as a last resort.

                Another propaganda anti-Stalinist lie - China could not cope with Japan, and therefore relying on it instead of the Red Army could only come to mind dreamers.
                Quote: tti
                Are you confusing anything?

                No, I don’t confuse, because OCCUPATION troops in Germany and Japan would have the same status, and under Gorbachev, the Japanese would also demand their withdrawal from four islands. You apparently do not know this situation at all.
                Quote: tti
                I meant your illiterate "seer".

                Your opinion is also "have" - ​​because of the apparent inadequacy of such "opinion".
                1. TTi
                  TTi 31 December 2018 12: 28
                  0
                  Quote: ccsr
                  because in the nineties without Stalin we lost a huge part of the country and millions of people who died and died prematurely for various reasons, i.e. such losses of peacetime under the leader and was not close.

                  This is all his "merit". Because the collapse of the socialism started by him happened.
                  Quote: ccsr
                  And in Tehran too?

                  Dear, you somehow do not quite understand the role of the USSR in that world. Somehow they told you nonsense about the great and mighty USSR, but for some reason you remembered it.
                  In fact, then there were 2 main players in the world, the USA and the British Empire. They also had "allies", those who dragged chestnuts from the fire for them. In Asia it was the Chinese, in Africa it was the Ethiopian, in Europe it was the USSR. There were other allies, each with its own function. And all these "allies" knew their right place. Incl. and Dzhugashvili.
                  Quote: ccsr
                  China could not cope with Japan, and therefore relying on it instead of the Red Army could only come to mind dreamers.

                  So the Indians. Pakistanis. Iranians. Brazilians. Mexicans.
                  If the Anglo-Saxons had found "allies" against the Germans, do not worry about them so much.
                  But the cheapest, of course, were the Soviet ones.
                  Quote: ccsr
                  because the OCCUPATION troops in Germany and Japan would have the same status,

                  You do not know how I look. The fact is that the Japanese abandoned the islands. Officially, in the text of a peace treaty. Therefore, in principle, there could not have been occupation troops, the territory no longer belonged to them.
                  I don’t understand why Russia is conducting any negotiations with them on this topic. Yes, Japan has not indicated whose benefit it is refusing. But the first to come to these draws (after Japan abandoned them) were Soviet troops. They joined them to the USSR. Everything is according to the law, it is not clear where all the conversations on this topic come from.
                  Quote: ccsr
                  Your opinion is also "have"

                  This is not at all interesting to me.
                  1. ccsr
                    ccsr 31 December 2018 15: 54
                    0
                    Quote: tti
                    Since there was a collapse of the socialism that he started.

                    Tell the Chinese this - the Communists have made them the leading country in the world.
                    Quote: tti
                    Somehow you were told nonsense about the great and mighty USSR,

                    I lived and worked in the USSR, unlike you, and I know all its advantages and disadvantages better.
                    Quote: tti
                    If the Anglo-Saxons had found "allies" against the Germans, do not worry about them so much.

                    I don’t worry, because I know that without the USSR, even according to the forecasts of the Americans, they should have defeated Japan only in the spring of 1946. So they came to bow to Stalin themselves, and this is a fact.
                    Quote: tti
                    The fact is that the Japanese abandoned the islands. Officially, in the text of a peace treaty.

                    This is a lie because the Treaty was not signed at all.
                    Quote: tti
                    I don’t understand why Russia is conducting any negotiations with them on this topic. Yes, Japan has not indicated in whose favor she refuses.

                    This is where we have to start, because then it might turn out that we would be asked to get rid of them. By the way, before you prove anything to me, you would study the situation with Austria, where our troops also stood, but nevertheless we ourselves left there when we were promised neutrality. Do you think the Japanese are dumber than the Austrians?
                    1. TTi
                      TTi 31 December 2018 19: 45
                      0
                      Quote: ccsr
                      Tell the Chinese this - the Communists have made them the leading country in the world.

                      1. At what cost?
                      2. Exactly leading? How is this known?
                      3. How is it known that they would not have become the leading country in the world without the Communists?
                      For example, Taiwan, the same Chinese live there, but not under the communists, 6,7 times richer than mainland China.
                      Those. just your example confirms the opposite, under the communists the Chinese live WORSE worse than without them.
                      Quote: ccsr
                      I lived and worked in the USSR, unlike you, and I know all its advantages and disadvantages better.

                      I can say the exact same thing about myself.
                      Quote: ccsr
                      because I know that without the USSR, even according to the forecasts of the Americans, they were to defeat Japan only in the spring of 1946.

                      And where does the USSR? The United States detonated atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the Japanese surrendered. And here is the USSR?
                      Quote: ccsr
                      So they came to bow to Stalin themselves, and this is a fact.

                      They made fun.
                      Quote: ccsr
                      This is a lie because the Treaty was not signed at all.

                      Actually signed by many countries of the world. The USSR did not sign it. This became his problem.
                      Quote: ccsr
                      because then it might turn out that we would be asked to get rid of them.

                      In fact, the rules for occupying no man's land are spelled out quite clearly. Nobody would then ask anyone anywhere. If he himself did not raise this topic.
                      Quote: ccsr
                      but nevertheless, we ourselves left there when we were promised neutrality.

                      This was decided back in Yalta.
                      Quote: ccsr
                      Do you think the Japanese are dumber than the Austrians?

                      And this is what?
                      1. ccsr
                        ccsr 1 January 2019 12: 40
                        0
                        Quote: tti
                        1. At what cost?

                        The one that the Chinese people considered acceptable.
                        Quote: tti
                        2. Exactly leading? How is this known?

                        In terms of real GDP, they went around the United States two years ago.
                        Quote: tti
                        3. How is it known that they would not have become the leading country in the world without the Communists?

                        Following the example of India. Compare the life of Chinese workers and Indian.
                        Quote: tti
                        And where does the USSR? The United States detonated atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the Japanese surrendered. And here is the USSR?

                        The bombing did not even affect the convening of an urgent meeting of the Japanese leadership, which occurred after the announcement of the USSR on entering the war with Japan.
                        Quote: tti
                        Actually signed by many countries of the world. The USSR did not sign it. This became his problem.

                        This is a lie, because the Japanese have problems with the islands, not ours.
                        Quote: tti
                        In fact, the rules for occupying no man's land are spelled out quite clearly.

                        You will still refer to the Helsinki Conference - where now are the borders that were mentioned there. You seem to be too primitive in interpreting real international life.
                        Quote: tti
                        This was decided back in Yalta.

                        And this is a lie, because the question of Austria was raised at the Potsdam Conference, and even there no decision was made:
                        In [p. 682] during the conference, July 22, 1945, JV Stalin, addressing G. Truman and W. Churchill, noted that “advanced detachments of the allied forces had already entered Vienna” 2. However, Truman and Churchill insisted that the decision on Austria states that the three governments “are ready to study this issue after the entry of British and American troops into Vienna»
                      2. TTi
                        TTi 1 January 2019 13: 27
                        0
                        Quote: ccsr
                        The one that the Chinese people considered acceptable.

                        Well, the last thing they asked was the people.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        In terms of real GDP, they went around the United States two years ago.

                        Dear, you will tell these tales to boys from the street. But I don’t have to.
                        Who compares something in terms of GDP? Do you even know what GDP is?
                        Yes, and you want to distort from GDP to PPP, which is generally for suckers.
                        This is called juggling. But in fact, countries are compared by such an indicator as net financial assets. And on this key indicator, China is only 35% of the United States.
                        But what is true is that China has already bypassed Japan (3rd place) and Britain (4th place).
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Following the example of India. Compare the life of Chinese workers and Indian.

                        Indians and Chinese are different people. And I compared you more correctly, the Chinese with the Chinese. And the comparison was not in favor of the communist part of China.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        The bombing did not even affect the convening of an urgent meeting of the Japanese leadership

                        You, when you think up, think up bigger. Write, for example, that no one noticed these explosions at all.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        which occurred after the announcement of the USSR on entering the war with Japan.

                        The events in Manchuria and the entry of the USSR into the war did not play any role in the surrender of Japan. All decided atomic bombs.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        because the Japanese have problems with the islands, not ours.

                        Yeah. I myself see on TV that there is no problem.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        You still refer to the Helsinki meeting

                        And what does that act have to do with the development of no man's land?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        because the question of Austria was raised at the Potsdam Conference, and even there no decision was made

                        And because "no decision was made" the USSR left Austria?
                        Do you yourself read your sayings?
                      3. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 1 January 2019 13: 48
                        0
                        Quote: tti
                        But in fact, countries are compared by such an indicator as net financial

                        Carbine, well, you already really made fun. Who creates these ratings, can you answer?
                      4. ccsr
                        ccsr 1 January 2019 15: 33
                        0
                        Quote: tti
                        Dear, you will tell these tales to boys from the street. But I don’t have to.
                        Who compares something in terms of GDP? Do you even know what GDP is?
                        Yes, and you want to distort from GDP to PPP, which is generally for suckers.
                        This is called juggling. But in fact, countries are compared by such an indicator as net financial assets. And on this key indicator, China is only 35% of the United States.

                        In fact, military experts (and they are more objective) do not compare the FINANCIAL indicators of countries, but the parameters of the country's economy, which allows it to cost LONG TIME, using only its own resources and domestic products. In this indicator, China overtook the United States, and this is a fact. Everything else is secondary.

                        Quote: tti
                        Write, for example, that no one noticed these explosions at all.

                        In fact, it was - the Japanese did not consider this the basis for ending the war.

                        Quote: tti
                        The events in Manchuria and the entry of the USSR into the war did not play any role in the surrender of Japan. All decided atomic bombs.

                        This is what Americans interpret, not military experts, but you do not belong to them, which is why you believe in propaganda, not facts.

                        Quote: tti
                        And what does that act have to do with the development of no man's land?

                        There, too, the borders were fixed, and then they started on the Helsinki agreement.
                        Quote: tti
                        And because "no decision was made" the USSR left Austria?

                        The USSR actually left Austria ten years after the war - have you heard of this? Then other arrangements were already in force, and not the Yalta ones ..
                      5. TTi
                        TTi 1 January 2019 15: 44
                        -1
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Actually, military experts

                        Yes sneeze at them. Let them do military affairs.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        In this indicator, China overtook the United States, and this is a fact. Everything else is secondary.

                        Dear, give up living in categories of eternal war, "as the wise Bolsheviks taught." The world lives in a different way. And he lives well.
                        But the Bolsheviks ended badly.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        the Japanese did not consider this the basis for ending the war.

                        Enchanting. Due to the atomic bombings, Japan surrendered. But the habit of calling black white, it is ineradicable among scoops.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        from why believe in propaganda and not facts

                        And the fact is that Manchuria, she is in the middle of nowhere. And what was going on there was little interest in the Japanese. Like the fate of the disabled Kwantung Army.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Then other arrangements were already in force, and not the Yalta ones ..

                        Well. acted, then what? Why are you dragged to Austria?
                      6. ccsr
                        ccsr 1 January 2019 15: 52
                        0
                        Quote: tti
                        Yes sneeze at them. Let them do military affairs.

                        They just go about their business - they evaluate the military-economic potential of a potential adversary. All securities and debentures will turn into dust, if only something serious happens in the world, and only those whose economies can save their population survive.
                        Quote: tti
                        But the Bolsheviks ended badly.

                        But you and our oligarchs live well due to the fact that they created.
                        By the way, where did you get that the Chinese Communists ended up badly - they are just unfolding ...
                        Quote: tti
                        Why are you dragged to Austria?

                        And why did you drag the undeveloped territories to the fact that the Soviet Union captured four Japanese islands as a result of the war?
                      7. TTi
                        TTi 1 January 2019 16: 03
                        +1
                        Quote: ccsr
                        They just go about their business - they evaluate the military-economic potential of a potential adversary.

                        Is this for us?
                        Do you still remember what the conversation was about?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        All securities and debentures will turn into dust, if only something serious happens in the world, and only those whose economies can save their population survive.

                        God, what nonsense from the past. As if in a time machine rolled.
                        "And the battle continues again ...". Apparently this is not cured.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        But you and our oligarchs live well due to the fact that they created.

                        Did the Bolsheviks create oil, gas and timber?
                        Thanks for the "new knowledge".
                        And they, these Bolsheviks, did they also go to Saudi Arabia and Qatar with Iran to "create"?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        By the way, where did you get that the Chinese Communists ended up badly - they are just unfolding ...

                        The Chinese Communists in China ended back in 1982. Further, this is just a screen.
                        Khrushchev wanted to do something similar in the 60s in the USSR. But Dan did it, but Khrushchev didn’t. As a result, China is booming, and the USSR went bankrupt and burst.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        And why did you drag the undeveloped territories to the fact that the Soviet Union captured four Japanese islands as a result of the war?

                        Do you understand Russian poorly? I clearly wrote to you, Japan in the text of the peace treaty refused these islands (for no benefit, simply refused). Legally, after that they became a draw. And the USSR received them by right of primary development after the Japanese.
                      8. ccsr
                        ccsr 1 January 2019 22: 24
                        0
                        Quote: tti
                        Legally, after that they became a draw. And the USSR received them by right of primary development after the Japanese.

                        Only Antarctica was empty in the 20th century, so the USSR would have no rights to the islands if the spacecraft had not defeated the Japanese army.
                        Quote: tti
                        Is this for us?

                        This is necessary for specialists to whom you clearly do not belong.
                        Quote: tti
                        The Chinese communists in China ended back in 1982.

                        Do not sign for them, they are still in power. By the way, the NEP was invented by Lenin, and they only studied with him, so they cannot be blamed for this if they went further.
                        Quote: tti
                        Did the Bolsheviks create oil, gas and timber?

                        No, but after they left, for example, Ukraine from a flourishing republic turned into the most backward part of Europe - the fact is there, try to comprehend it.
                      9. TTi
                        TTi 1 January 2019 23: 35
                        0
                        Quote: ccsr
                        The USSR would have no rights to the islands if the spacecraft had not defeated the Japanese army

                        No, you still do not understand the Russian language.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        By the word NEP, Lenin invented

                        The New Economic Policy (Ulyanova) had nothing to do with socialism (Dzhugashvili).
                        Yes, and the NEP, this is not an invention at all. This is a kind of feudal mode of production. And feudalism in the world for many hundreds of years.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        and they only learned from him, so they cannot be blamed for this if they went further.

                        You are funny. Well, what could you learn from Ulyanov? Is that red terror. Although this is not his invention.
                        NEP and the Chinese model have nothing in common.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        but after their departure, for example, Ukraine from a flourishing republic turned into the most backward part of Europe

                        This "flourishing republic" has always been a backward part of Europe.
                        A flourishing republic, it was only in the imagination of scoops. And in the agitation of Sovagitprop.
                        But who really won from the collapse of the USSR is Russia (and also Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania).
                        I had to travel around the Union at one time. In the RSFSR, my tears came to my eyes from the hopeless misery (even by modest Soviet standards) that I saw. And now the picture has changed for the better. AND VERY significantly.
                      10. ccsr
                        ccsr 2 January 2019 12: 05
                        0
                        Quote: tti
                        No, you still do not understand the Russian language.

                        Most likely you are treating the history of international relations vulgarly.

                        Quote: tti
                        This is a kind of feudal mode of production. And feudalism in the world for many hundreds of years.

                        Firstly, not feudal, but capitalist. And secondly, the use of capitalist principles in the construction of socialism was carried out for the first time in the world. The Chinese have taken advantage of this experience. Learn materiel ..

                        Quote: tti
                        NEP and the Chinese model have nothing in common.

                        You are just a homegrown revisionist of Marxism-Leninism:
                        .... the scale, problems and prospects of China, including its economy, require advance and proper adaptation to foreign trends. It was concluded that it is necessary to gradually, but not at a record fast pace, introduce the Western elements in the economy, which began in recent years, the leadership of Mao Zedong. Based, firstly, on the experience of the NEP in the USSR and on the relevant work of Lenin. Secondly, the fact that there was no all-Chinese nationalization of private property in the PRC even during the Cultural Revolution of 1966-1969. And thirdly, bearing in mind the advice of Stalin in 1950 to Mao Zedong: not to rush into the nationalization of all Chinese private capital, to a greater extent take into account the specifics of the PRC in the construction of socialism and learn not only from achievements, but also from the mistakes of the Soviet Union.

                        https://aftershock.news/?q=node/442950&full


                        Quote: tti
                        But who really won from the collapse of the USSR is Russia (and also Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania).

                        Bankrupt states living on the handouts of the West, and where the titular nation escapes from the country - do you want to see Russia like this? Me not.
                      11. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 1 January 2019 16: 42
                        +1
                        Quote: ccsr
                        parameters of the country's economy, which allows it to cost LONG TIME, I use only my own resources and domestic products. In this indicator, China overtook the United States, and this is a fact

                        Some of your illiterate specialists. China is extremely dependent on imports. If it is pressed, hydrocarbons will have to be driven from coal, like Germany.
                        Unlike the United States, which are almost self-sufficient in terms of resources, and taking into account NAFTA, without almost.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        In fact, it was - the Japanese did not consider this the basis for ending the war

                        The Japanese had the 127th tricky plan to avoid unconditional surrender. Ab и the Soviet attack did not fit into it, and the 128th cunning plan was not found.

                        The Japanese government of '45 is an ideal example of the extent to which the interests of the ruling class and the interests of the people can be opposed. Russian, by the way, should be interesting.
                        Quote: tti
                        All decided atomic bombs.

                        All decided 3.5 years of war, of course. Wunderwaffe - it can only solve something for the losers.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Then other agreements were already in force, but not

                        Yes, a very interesting story. At first, everything went to the Austrian Democratic Republic, but these dodgers managed to get out.
            2. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 30 December 2018 23: 51
              +1
              Quote: ccsr
              Here Stalin sneezed at all the pieces of paper and the opinions of other countries in 1939-1940, and did the right thing.

              Yes and no.
              He did the right thing by sneezing on pieces of paper and opinions. But as it turned out in the 41st, not everything he did right.
              Quote: ccsr
              You just haven’t grown to understand Stalin’s providence,

              There is no providence there. The principle is simple, while they give it, we must take it. When the former Allies began to look at the holster, then he stopped. Think Allies Before About with a kind word and a gun - you look, and we could manage to play another couple of countries. The Danube border, for example, and maybe Poland, although it is unlikely.
              1. ccsr
                ccsr 31 December 2018 11: 16
                0
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                But as it turned out in the 41st, not everything he did right.

                "Everyone imagines himself a strategist ..."
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                When the former Allies began to look at the holster, then he stopped.

                He stopped for other reasons - we physically could not contain those territories that we could claim after the Second World War, for example, Finland or Yugoslavia.
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                you look, and we could manage to play another couple of countries.

                There is a good saying that Stalin knew, unlike you - "You walk wide, you will tear your pants." Everything is easy for you, but in life everything is not so, and the collapse of the USSR showed this in all its glory ..
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 31 December 2018 11: 36
                  0
                  Quote: ccsr
                  Everyone imagines himself a strategist.

                  Well, yes, objective circumstances interfered.
                  Quote: ccsr
                  could not contain those territories that they could claim after the Second World War, for example, Finland or Yugoslavia.

                  "Maintaining Finland" is, of course, expensive. But not in the sense you mean by this word. Comrade Stalin's price for Finland was well explained in 39.

                  Gustav Karlovich turned out to be a great man, the Finns were lucky.
                  Quote: ccsr
                  There is a good saying that Stalin knew, unlike you

                  By "win back a couple of countries" I meant the Allies, of course. As for Comrade Stalin, the topic "have you come to your own district, kid?" discussed with him about Turkey and Iran.
                  1. ccsr
                    ccsr 31 December 2018 15: 46
                    0
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    then the topic "have you come to your Ryan, kid?" discussed with him about Turkey and Iran.

                    In fact, Stalin tried to restore the USSR within the borders of the Republic of Ingushetia, and he simply wanted to use all the other freebies in our favor, and he partially succeeded.
                    Well, how do you imagine socialism in Iran or Turkey, where the mentality of the people is not Orthodox at all? Or didn’t the activity of Turkmenbashi show you what people breathe there even after living within the framework of the former USSR?
                    1. TTi
                      TTi 31 December 2018 19: 46
                      -1
                      Quote: ccsr
                      Actually, Stalin tried to restore the USSR within the borders of the Republic of Ingushetia.

                      Why was this necessary?
                      What is so good about it?
                      For some reason, the creation of the USSR and its growth are presented as a great achievement of the Bolsheviks. Why so, I do not understand.
                      1. ccsr
                        ccsr 1 January 2019 12: 44
                        0
                        Quote: tti
                        Why was this necessary?

                        Well, at least in order not to look in the eyes of the descendants as fools who destroyed a single state - the Russian Empire.
                        Quote: tti
                        Why so, I do not understand.

                        Your misunderstanding is only a consequence of your bias in assessing the historical past.
                      2. TTi
                        TTi 1 January 2019 13: 36
                        0
                        Quote: ccsr
                        not to look like fools in the eyes of posterity

                        Well no. They do not look like fools, but like scoundrels.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        a consequence of your bias in assessing the historical past.

                        Actually, I am extremely objective. And I clearly argue my position, it seems to me.
                      3. ccsr
                        ccsr 1 January 2019 15: 37
                        +1
                        Quote: tti
                        Well no. They do not look like fools, but like scoundrels.

                        Only in your eyes, which are blinkered by "democratic" propaganda, and nothing more.
                        Quote: tti
                        Actually, I am extremely objective. And I clearly argue my position, it seems to me.

                        It seems to you.
                      4. TTi
                        TTi 1 January 2019 15: 45
                        -1
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Only in your eyes, which are blinkered by "democratic" propaganda, and nothing more.

                        You essentially cannot refute any of my statements. And communicate stamps at the party district committee level.
                      5. ccsr
                        ccsr 5 January 2019 13: 03
                        0
                        Quote: tti
                        You essentially cannot refute any of my statements.

                        They are from the field of propaganda, and not from the field of facts.
                        Quote: tti
                        And communicate stamps at the party district committee level.

                        It’s easier to explain some events for inexperienced people who do not have serious basic training.
                    2. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 31 December 2018 21: 15
                      +1
                      What I will never understand is the desire to write Comrade Stalin into not only being Russian and nationalists, but also "Orthodox mentality" weaving. It is a pity that Comrade Trotsky did not shoot him at the time. If Comrade Trotsky was an Orthodox Russian nationalist, it would be even more beautiful.
                      1. ccsr
                        ccsr 1 January 2019 12: 48
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        It is a pity that Comrade Trotsky did not shoot him at the time.

                        Are you from the neo-Trotskyists?
                        It is a pity that Stalin did not destroy the roots of the Trotskyists until the end ...
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Would Comrade Trotsky be an Orthodox Russian nationalist, it would be even more beautiful.

                        Your icon could not be Russian, because the mentality of parochialism imposed an ineradicable Russophobia on it.
                      2. TTi
                        TTi 1 January 2019 13: 58
                        +1
                        Quote: ccsr
                        because the mentality of parochialism imposed on him an ineradicable Russophobia.

                        And what was imposed on the mentality of Dzhugashvili?
                        Georgian and robber-robber who "worked in the wet". This, in your opinion, unambiguously indicates that he is a Russophile?
                      3. ccsr
                        ccsr 1 January 2019 15: 41
                        +1
                        Quote: tti
                        And what was imposed on the mentality of Dzhugashvili?

                        Life among ordinary people and deep respect for the Russian people. This happens.
                        Quote: tti
                        Georgian and robber-robber who "worked in the wet". This, in your opinion, unambiguously indicates that he is a Russophile?

                        Unambiguously indicates his activities for the benefit of the peoples of the USSR and Russian in the first place. Although not all of his actions are understandable from the point of view of modern "defenders of democratic values".
                        You did not live then, and it is not for you to judge his actions - better judge by how many years we live without war.
                      4. TTi
                        TTi 1 January 2019 15: 53
                        -1
                        Quote: ccsr
                        and deep respect for the Russian people.

                        Are you out of your mind?
                        The Russian Bolsheviks (the Russian Volunteer Army) defeated during the Civil War. Part of it was forced out of Russia, and those who remained mostly executed.
                        I wonder how you can carry such nonsense about Russophobe Dzhugashvili, who was also a Bolshevik.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        It clearly indicates his activities for the benefit of the peoples of the USSR and Russian in the first place.

                        Was killing robbing in the interests of the Russian people? And for the benefit of the peoples of the USSR?
                        This ghoul in different ways, the population that could live in Russia, halved. But he, it turns out, has admirers.
                        Want to halve again?
                        Didn’t you drink the potion that the doctor recommended?
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Although not all of his actions are understandable from the point of view of modern "defenders of democratic values".

                        Actually, there are eternal values. And all of their Bolsheviks and Dzhugashvili violated. Moreover, cynically and repeatedly.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        judge better by how many years we live without war.

                        And what does he have to do with it? Thank God for 66 years since the fins glued together.
                      5. ccsr
                        ccsr 1 January 2019 22: 10
                        0
                        Quote: tti
                        This ghoul in different ways, the population that could live in Russia, halved.

                        I understand that you are a fan of Novodvorskaya, but even she did not believe in such nonsense.
                        Quote: tti
                        Didn’t you drink the potion that the doctor recommended?

                        Well, if I’m talking with you, then most likely the doctor is here, since I’m forced to listen to your fantasies.
                      6. TTi
                        TTi 1 January 2019 23: 41
                        -1
                        Quote: ccsr
                        but even she did not believe in such nonsense.

                        I have little knowledge of her position and views.
                        But what I wrote is far from exaggerated. This is a completely scientifically proven fact.
                        Still self-educating, at least a little. It cannot be the same as you, without information, but with the firm principles of the party and government.
                        Quote: ccsr
                        then most likely the doctor here I am

                        You flatter yourself. Which is generally a common occurrence among scoops. They generally live in some kind of world. In some parallel universe. Not like the rest of the world.
                      7. ccsr
                        ccsr 2 January 2019 12: 11
                        0
                        Quote: tti
                        I have little knowledge of her position and views.
                        But what I wrote is far from exaggerated. This is a completely scientifically proven fact.

                        In general, you are poorly versed in socio-political issues, and in matters of the history of our country you use primitive lies, and this is obvious. What you call "fact" is an ordinary lie, in which even outright Russophobes do not believe.

                        Quote: tti
                        They generally live in some kind of world. In some parallel universe. Not like the rest of the world.

                        Do you, as a representative of this "rest of the world", have a pathological hatred for the USSR at the level of genes? Or do you work on soldering?
                        I think that you are a vivid representative of the smerdyakovschina, unless of course you lied about your trips around the USSR.
                      8. ccsr
                        ccsr 2 January 2019 19: 00
                        0
                        Quote: tti
                        This is a completely scientifically proven fact.

                        Well, since this is a "proven fact" for you, I suggest you discuss it on the For the Truth forum, because the topic here is not quite suitable for discussion. Then we'll see what will remain of your "fact", unless of course you dare to express your views there.
                      9. Cherry Nine
                        Cherry Nine 1 January 2019 16: 49
                        0
                        Quote: ccsr
                        Are you from the neo-Trotskyists?

                        Quote: ccsr
                        Your icon could not be Russian,

                        I am pretty cool with all the old Bolsheviks. For my taste, if Comrade Stalin did something good, he put them at a loss. Sorry, not everyone.

                        Nonetheless. Russian Orthodox nationalist Bronstein is beautiful. Almost like a Russian Orthodox nationalist Zhirinovsky.
                      10. ccsr
                        ccsr 1 January 2019 22: 29
                        0
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Russian Orthodox nationalist Bronstein is beautiful.

                        For you, this may be Hochma, but if he came to power, it is not known what the Russian people paid for. I think that the price would be much more tragic for us.
                      11. TTi
                        TTi 1 January 2019 23: 41
                        -1
                        Quote: ccsr
                        I think that the price would be much more tragic for us.

                        You think? Are you sure?
                        So far, apart from a set of memorized cliches, nothing, no thought process, is visible.
                        You scolded Khrushchev just now. They called Trotskyist.
                        And I wrote to you that the Trotskyist Dan in China brought China to its present state. But Khrushchev failed to do this, the supporters of socialism took up. As a result, China is developing, and the USSR went bankrupt and fell apart.
                        So if Trotskyist Deng raised China like that, maybe Trotsky himself would have raised the USSR much more steeply? After all, the struggle between Trotsky and Dzhugashvili is akin to the struggle between Khrushchev and the supporters of socialism. And both times in the USSR "socialism" won. And the finale of these victories is known.
                      12. ccsr
                        ccsr 2 January 2019 12: 16
                        0
                        Quote: tti
                        You scolded Khrushchev just now.

                        It seemed to you - I have a neutral attitude towards him, as to a historical figure, although in comparison with Stalin he looks too pale.
                        Quote: tti
                        And I wrote to you that the Trotskyist Dan in China brought China to its present state.

                        This cliche does not work - I brought you material that proves that the Chinese carefully studied the work of Lenin and Stalin, and were guided by them in their practice. They somehow did not remember Trotsky.
                        https://aftershock.news/?q=node/442950&full
                        Quote: tti
                        And the ending of these victories is known.

                        I don’t think that you can imagine what the ending of humanity will be like in fifty years, but you have already decided that you know everything. They made me laugh ...
                      13. TTi
                        TTi 1 January 2019 13: 37
                        +1
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        It is a pity that Comrade Trotsky did not shoot him at the time.

                        Very sorry.
                        But he didn’t shoot him, because he underestimated it. And on the contrary, I overestimated myself.
                        The further course of events is known.
  13. Alexander not great
    Alexander not great 29 December 2018 11: 18
    +5
    my great-grandfather was a signalman, 3 orders of the red star, in one battle he and a couple of signalmen eliminated more than 40 wire breaks.
  14. tolancop
    tolancop 29 December 2018 12: 08
    +2
    Extremely interesting material. A mountain of literature has been written about the supply of cars, tanks, airplanes, and only a few mentions have come across the communications equipment, and that for the most part with respect to the radio equipment installed on the equipment.
  15. Decimam
    Decimam 29 December 2018 12: 16
    +1
    "The American EE-8B and EE-108 have inscriptions in Russian! What we will not see on equipment and weapons supplied under Lend-Lease. Simply put, some of the telephones were delivered to the USSR as commercial."
    I will allow myself some clarification, since the information does not quite correspond to the truth.

    This book presents all five protocols, according to which Lend-Lease deliveries were made from the USA to the USSR, as well as lists of delivered products, including medicines, medical equipment, raw materials, etc. etc.
    1. Decimam
      Decimam 29 December 2018 12: 36
      +2

      This is a sheet from the list of deliveries according to the fourth (Ottawa) protocol, effective from July 1, 1944 and formally completed on May 12, 1945.
      As you can see, according to this protocol, 100 field telephones EE-000 "Soviet type" were delivered to the USSR in the amount of 8 dollars. At the same time, all commercial imports through Amtorg in 5 amounted to $ 000.
      Those. "Russified" were both commercial phones and phones supplied under Lend-Lease.
      1. domokl
        domokl 29 December 2018 16: 52
        0
        Quote: Decimam
        delivered 100 field telephones EE-000 "Soviet type" in the amount of 8 dollars

        Great addition. Except for one detail. The Soviet-type EE-8 phones are EE-8Bs. Ie devices with the ability to use Soviet batteries. The article also indicates an element by which it is possible to distinguish Lend-Liz and Amtorg phones ...
        1. Decimam
          Decimam 29 December 2018 21: 44
          +1
          Soviet-type telephones are EE-8-A and EE-8-B telephones, similar to those used in the US Army, but intended for delivery to the USSR, accordingly, the possibility of power supply from both American VA-30 batteries and Soviet type was provided for 2-B or 2-C and with Russified designations.

          This is a drawing to the telephone instruction EE-8-A of 1943. Marking in Russian is clearly visible.
          The difference between the EE-8-A and EE-8-B phones in the chassis material. In the first - aluminum, in the second - sheet steel.
          1. Decimam
            Decimam 29 December 2018 21: 47
            +1

            This is the above instruction.
  16. Fitter65
    Fitter65 29 December 2018 12: 44
    +1
    Phones in the central network are powered by wires from the PBX

    In the Central Bank mode, short-range telephones were powered from the switch, many of the switches had telephone sockets for both Central Bank and MB. ATS - an automated telephone exchange is a little different.
  17. Decimam
    Decimam 29 December 2018 12: 52
    +3
    "Later modifications to the EE-8A delivery to the Red Army were American army field phones in a canvas box bag. This is how Russian weather modernized American technology."
    With all due respect to the Russian weather, nevertheless, in this case, the technique was modernized by the weather of the Pacific islands. It was after the start of large-scale operations in the Pacific that the skin was replaced with tarpaulin.
  18. hohol95
    hohol95 29 December 2018 12: 57
    0
    True, there was a positive experience using imported phones. The Finns used Estonian-made field telephones in their army (factory in Tartu). And after stuffing in the summer of 1940 We received the Baltic States as part of the USSR not only from the units of the Estonian and other armies, but also spare parts for Finnish trophies.

    So CRAZY ... Thanks dear authors!
    But in your article you forgot to indicate the number of factories that produced telephone and radio equipment inherited by the USSR from the Republic of Ingushetia!
    And did not indicate the capacity of these plants!
    Starting with field phones, go to the radio stations!
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. Pushkar
    Pushkar 29 December 2018 14: 26
    +2
    It is also worth noting the special importance of land-lease deliveries - they did not stop, and equipment and resources also went during the evacuation of our plants to the east. So, 4% is conditional. Road spoon for dinner.
    1. spektr9
      spektr9 30 December 2018 08: 08
      0
      Let’s honestly how the US won the WWII in the history books of Western countries, with minimal help from the USSR fellow
  21. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 29 December 2018 16: 20
    +6
    Very interesting! Thank!
    Anecdote in the topic:
    They send Rabinovich to America to buy a cable.
    - And money? he asks.
    The bosses scratched their turnips and gave him 5 dollars.
    Rabinovich arrives in a month with a solid cable steamer.
    The authorities are shocked and asks for an explanation.
    Rabinovich tells:
    - I sailed. Found a company for the production and sale of cables. Talking about my need.
    - Do you have money? they ask.
    - Yes, I say, 5 dollars.
    Americans laughed and said:
    - For this money we can sell a piece from the tip of the nose to the tip of the penis!
    I agreed...
    - And what's the catch?
    - The rabbi buried the tip of my penis in Odessa ... laughing
    1. domokl
      domokl 29 December 2018 16: 44
      0
      laughing Pasternak and celery, that no vegetable, then ... Abram.
      As Comrade Hammer said in a narrow circle: -This example, comrades, I have cited in order to show the love of Soviet Jews for the Soviet country and their willingness to sacrifice foreskin in the name of the triumph of communism throughout the world ... bully
    2. Antares
      Antares 1 January 2019 02: 04
      +1
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      The rabbi buried the tip of my cock in Odessa ..

      just a joke - for only 8 thousand km of cable is not enough .. laughing
  22. NF68
    NF68 29 December 2018 17: 08
    0
    Interesting article.
  23. CTABEP
    CTABEP 29 December 2018 19: 14
    +1
    Oh, really a masterpiece. Very interesting and little-known information, thanks to the authors for excavating such details. For some reason, everyone knows about Lend-Lease radio stations, but somehow they forgot about the wired connection.
    Alas, that in the WWII, that in the Second World War, that now - communication is the weak point of our army :(.
  24. irontom
    irontom 29 December 2018 22: 08
    +1
    My grandfather was a signalman in Stalingrad, not for long, a couple of months in the fall of 42, before he was seriously injured. He died in the mid-90s. Oh, he was young, his stories were not interesting. I remember - the dream of pliers, or rather a German communications kit, a homemade knife of all the tools, and his teeth with which he used to grind the paper cable insulation. Yes, games with a sniper, you will not have time. Thank God that he had time to measure himself, before that, for a young, damn it, a victim of perestroika, after reading all kinds of Ogonyok and similar literature, he began to teach his grandfather that everything in his life was wrong, and the medal "For Courage" was not correct, as for "Mastering the Virgin Land ". It's good that I quickly grew wiser.
    "For courage" the grandfather got a connection under fire.
  25. faterdom
    faterdom 29 December 2018 22: 38
    0

    Thank you for the article. Signalers and sappers are the hardest and most dangerous military professions, and another reason to recall their feat, and how it was, is our duty. The Museum of Artillery, Engineering and Signal Corps defeated with his wife in only two days, for one it did not work out. Another day we left for the A.S.Popov Communications Museum - and the impressions are also very good, a strong museum.
    1. Rusfaner
      Rusfaner 30 December 2018 00: 11
      +2
      She’s like a bond — until they ruin it, nobody notices ...
  26. Janus
    Janus 29 December 2018 22: 54
    0
    The signalman's commandment <the faster you run, the lighter the reel> and even if there are three of them in total
  27. tanit
    tanit 30 December 2018 05: 30
    0
    By the way, the heir to the TA-57

    TA-88.
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  29. Semurg
    Semurg 30 December 2018 17: 12
    0
    I read the article, it became interesting, I read the whole cycle about another Lend Lease. In general, "about how many wonderful discoveries we have, prepares education and the Internet" laughing
  30. Vladimir T
    Vladimir T 30 December 2018 17: 22
    +2
    TAI-43 at 85m, still used in the troops. I had to use it. It was a joke to tie the wires to the railing and twist the call handle when someone grabbed the railing. Electric shock was noticeable. The soldiers to laugh.
  31. serg.shishkov2015
    serg.shishkov2015 31 December 2018 06: 06
    0
    looked at his records-422000 phones, about 1 million km of cable, information from AIF from the times of the USSR, the first year that he became a free unlimited subscription
  32. Antares
    Antares 1 January 2019 02: 05
    +1
    Thanks, I never knew much from what I read.
    Communication / information at all times and battles was very important.
  33. The comment was deleted.
  34. bubalik
    bubalik 1 January 2019 13: 46
    0
    Even signalmen die not cinematically. Explosions of shells, and that's all ... Neither you "one against a hundred Krauts"
    , how many did not look through the awards on the site "Memory of the People", in my opinion, most of the awards with the medal "For Courage" were among the communications workers. IMHO smile
  35. M. Michelson
    M. Michelson 2 January 2019 10: 47
    -2
    There is a saying: pulled the tail - the nose is bogged down.
    When natural jingoists get down to business, this is exactly what happens. Well, we have competently told about the "telephone" Lend-Lease. And - there and then game, not allowing you to forget with whom you are dealing.
    Why fight if you don’t know how? Why fight if you can buy a fighter?

    Well, actually, if you recall the beginning of the Second World War, then the first question should not be attributed to the Americans, who, having entered the war on the continent, were not subjected to defeat anywhere. And most importantly - since the pre-war times (!) America has consistently and persistently strengthened the hostile policy towards the Axis forces, and with its beginning it began a massive transfer of troops and equipment to the UK, preparing for the Overlord operation.
    And from the same tragic for us on the 41st, the Americans fought a war in the Pacific. And not just war, but covered us from the rear! Oh yes...
    Agree, the war on the islands and the war on the European theater of war are two different wars ...

    Yes, it is clear that the war in the Arctic and the war in the mountains are different wars. The authors would only have to agree that the war on the military theater and the war on the sea (in which the USSR was almost not noted) are also different wars.

    On the whole, I have a sad conclusion. There is a proverb: you cannot wash a black dog until it is white. So if a person by nature "" lives with stupid propaganda inventions, then his insides will certainly show through. Even if he writes a completely competent study.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 2 January 2019 12: 20
      0
      Quote: M. Michelson
      And from the same tragic for us on the 41st, the Americans fought a war in the Pacific.

      In fact, the US war began six months later than the Second World War, so it should be more correct in its history.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 2 January 2019 16: 33
        0
        Quote: ccsr
        Actually, the US war began six months later,

        And then what's wrong? December 7th is not the 41st year?
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 2 January 2019 18: 57
          0
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          And then what's wrong? December 7th is not the 41st year?

          And the fact that from any "rear" they did not cover us in any way - after Pearl Harbor they had no time for us at all.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 2 January 2019 21: 26
            0
            Quote: ccsr
            And the fact that from any "rear" they did not cover us in any way -

            Yes and no.
            On the one hand, the relative guarantee of peace in the Far East was very important for the USSR. The war of Japan with the United States more or less gave such a guarantee.

            On the other hand, to consider this a favor of the Americans would be strange. About the same as counting the Second World War for help to Britain from the USSR. Although there are such patients.
            1. ccsr
              ccsr 3 January 2019 11: 01
              0
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              On the other hand, to consider this a favor of the Americans would be strange.

              We are not talking about a "favor" at all - they themselves were shocked by what had happened, it was not in vain that they carried out the work of commissions on the attack on Pearl Harbor and the actions of officials.
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 3 January 2019 11: 33
                0
                Quote: ccsr
                they themselves were shocked by what had happened; it was not in vain that the commissions carried out their work on the attack on Pearl Harbor and the actions of officials.

                Yes and no.
                The Americans (the Roosevelt administration) didn't just wait for war. They brought this day closer as they could. Destroyers-bases, neutral patrols, construction of warships for the belligerent side, Lend-Lease, vacationers in Britain and China, a moral embargo - all this has very little to do with "neutrality." Another thing is that the problems of the USSR did not bother them too much.

                Moreover, December 41st revealed such a mess and incompetence in the system of executive power (including the Army and Navy, but not only in them) that the Congress had questions. Unfortunately, there was no sense. Firstly, the legislative power, in principle, cannot replace the executive, and secondly, to drive Congress by its nose is one of the few things that the FDR did brilliantly.
    2. bone1
      bone1 2 January 2019 20: 31
      0
      Americans waging war in the Pacific, were covering us from the rear ??? laughing Are you smart or smart? belay
  36. bone1
    bone1 2 January 2019 20: 28
    0
    So how many telephones were in the spacecraft at the beginning of the war? —How much was produced in 1941-45? —How much was delivered under Lend-Lease?
  37. Narak-zempo
    Narak-zempo 3 January 2019 10: 22
    0
    From the story of his wife’s grandfather (he began to fight after training as a platoon commander near Stalingrad): the wired connection was broken in the very first minutes of the battle, and after half an hour all his subordinates were either killed or wounded, and he crawled with the coil.