Military Review

The self-loading pistol "Boa": new for the army or a project without a future?

125
Over the past few decades, the topic of replacing a Makarov pistol in the arsenals of the army and security forces has been regularly raised. it weapon no longer fully meets modern requirements, and therefore it should be replaced with a more advanced sample. However, recent attempts to create a new pistol did not always succeed. A new contender for the title of replacement for the PM is a promising self-loading pistol, known as "Boa". He is already undergoing tests, but his real prospects are still in question.


The development of a self-loading pistol with the code "Boa" began several years ago. The general public was told about the new project in 2016, when part of the development work was already completed. At that time, the authors of the project gave him the most optimistic estimates and talked about the imminent start of the necessary tests and inspections. However, over the past two and a half years, the situation around the new project has not fundamentally changed. This is a cause for concern.

According to official data ...

The existence of the boa pistol project was announced in June 2016. The project was created by the specialists of the Central Research Institute of Precision Engineering, and for the first time, Dmitry Semizorov, the organization’s general director, spoke about it. According to the head of the institute, at that time work on the product "Boa" was in the final stages. Were conducted preliminary tests, the results of which carried out refinement. The preparation of prototypes for future state tests was also conducted.


One of the first prototypes of "Boa"


The new gun is designed for high-power cartridge 9x21 mm, which should give it advantages over existing samples, such as Makarov and Yarygin pistols. According to the plans of the developers, the new "Boa" in the future could be a replacement for the army PM and PU.

In June, 2016, it was claimed that the promising "Boa" would have to go on state tests in the very near future. It was planned to complete these works before the end of the year. It should be noted that information about the work on the topic "Boa" came only from the management of TsNIITochmash. The Ministry of Defense and other power structures did not comment on these reports.

In August of the same year, D. Semizorov again told the national press about the progress of the promising project. He recalled the recent completion of the preliminary tests of "Boa", and in the autumn it was supposed to bring the product to the state. Completion of state tests was again planned for the end of the year. If the Ministry of Defense would make the appropriate decision, then the mass production of pistols could be launched already in 2017.

The director general of the development organization indicated that one of the main goals of the Udav project was to ensure the confident defeat of enemy personnel using individual means of armor protection. In this regard, the already well-known cartridge 9x21 mm, which differs from other ammunition with increased power and armor-piercing bullet, was chosen for the pistol of the new model. Previously, this cartridge was used with an ATP / CP-1 / Gyurza pistol. At the same time, the project "Boa" was not based on borrowed solutions, and in its design some new ideas were used.

In May 2018, the specialized magazine Kalashnikov, published an image of an experienced pistol of a new type. In July, a copy of another prototype appeared at the disposal of the publication. The products were noticeably different from each other, and it was a question of consistently created samples and refinement of the basic design. At the same time, unfortunately, the exact technical characteristics of the weapon remained unknown. TsNIITochmash was in no hurry to publish such data, and therefore the press and weapon lovers had to rely only on their own estimates.

In October, the theme of the new project was raised again by the leadership of the developer organization. The new general director of CNIITochmash Albert Bakov announced some information about the development of Udawa and plans for the near future. According to him, self-loading pistols filed for state tests. A new phase of activities carried out at the sites of the Ministry of Defense. In accordance with the directive of the military, the tests should be completed in December. After this, the Defense Ministry will have to decide on the future fate of the new pistol - it can enter service.

In the wake of these News Interesting posts were published by Rossiyskaya Gazeta. It turned out that, along with gunsmiths, industrial designers worked on the new pistol. The appearance of the future Udava was determined by the specialists of TsNIITochmash and the Kinetika High Precision Prototyping Center at the MISiS National Research Technological University. The reason for such cooperation was the specifics of the development of modern rifle systems. The weapon approached the maximum possible technical characteristics, and now one of the ways to improve it is to improve ergonomics.

The outer contours of the future pistol were determined taking into account technical limitations, ease of use, as well as artistic features. In the future, the original design has undergone certain changes, but its main provisions are preserved. Also, using modern technologies, the designers of "Kinetics" and gunsmiths of TsNIITochmash developed some additional devices for the "Boa". At the same time, remarkable results were obtained.

Technical issues

To date, the authors of the project "Boa" have published far from all the technical information, but the main features of the gun are already clear. In addition, the approximate appearance of the product and the parameters of the main components of the pistol complex are known. All this allows you to make various estimates and build predictions about the future of the project.


A variant of the appearance of a pistol from the Center "Kinetics"


The project "Boa" provides for the manufacture of a self-loading pistol, based on well-known and time-tested solutions. This could to some extent simplify the design, but did not exclude the need to solve a number of design problems associated with the use of the relatively powerful cartridge 9x21 mm. The product is built according to the classical scheme with a T-shaped frame, including a handle, and a movable shutter casing. In the manufacture of products are widely used polymeric materials. In particular, the handle and the frame as a whole, at least, are covered with plastic or even completely made of it. The casing of the shutter at the same time remains completely metal.

It is impossible not to note the curious appearance of "Boa". If the photos of the spring and summer of this year featured a pistol of a utilitarian look without any special artistic delights, then in October they showed a more interesting sample. Different prototypes differ from each other in the form of the main parts, ergonomics and, very likely, the design of internal mechanisms. For example, one of the most noticeable differences was the shape and depth of the notches on the casing of the shutter.

The type of automatic pistol has not yet been clarified. According to some sources, a system with a swinging barrel is used, in which the locking is carried out by the interaction of the projections of the barrel and the window of ejection of the liner. However, information about the possibility of using a silent shooting device may contradict such versions.

The gun is equipped with a double action trigger with a trigger that protrudes beyond the weapon. Fire control is carried out by a traditional trigger, covered with a traditional brace. Older photographs showed fuse flags at the back of the movable casing. The sample shown in the fall, for some reason, did not have such details. Moreover, by its appearance it was generally impossible to talk about the presence of an opt-free fuse.

Like other self-loading pistols, the Boa uses detachable box-shaped stores placed in the inner shaft of the handle. The magazine holds 9х21 mm cartridges, but its capacity has not yet been clarified. Fixing the store is a side button. The gun has a slide lag, allowing you to quickly prepare it for firing after emptying the store. The delay lever is on the frame on the left, above the trigger.

Apparently, the gun "Boa" can have two versions of sighting devices of a similar type. They include the front and rear sight of a simple design, placed on the casing. On the basic version of the gun, these parts have a small height. A modification that is compatible with the silencer is distinguished by an increased height of sighting devices, which allows you to raise the line of sight.

According to press reports, the development of a silencer for the "Boa" was carried out using automated design systems. Experienced product made using the technology of three-dimensional printing. The resulting design was able to solve their problems, but at the same time weighed only tens of grams. In addition, the cost of the finished product has been drastically reduced.

It is also possible to use other accessories. For their installation on the front of the frame there is a standard guide rail. It is proposed to use with flashlights, laser target designators and other devices.

Unfortunately, the exact dimensions and weight, as well as the combat characteristics of the self-loading pistol "Boa" remain unknown. It can be assumed that in terms of combat qualities it is comparable with previous systems chambered for 9х21 mm. In the case of the SPS / CP-1 pistol, such a cartridge allowed to obtain a bullet initial velocity of about 400 m / s and a muzzle energy of more than 600 J. Depending on the type of cartridge and bullet, the ATP from the 50 distance could pierce an 3 or 3 class body armor. How much "Boa" is similar to ATP in terms of tactical and technical characteristics is unknown.

Near future

According to reports two years ago, in the very near future the Udav pistol from TsNIITochmash was supposed to go on state trials. Apparently, such plans were implemented with some delay, and therefore promising weapons have not yet completed all the necessary checks. However, as reported in mid-autumn, state testing of the pistol will be completed in December. Thus, this stage of work must come to an end - if it has not already ended.


Experienced pistol with a silencer


The Ministry of Defense has not yet talked about the test progress of the Boa constrictor pistol and has not announced its plans for it. Based on the results of current inspections, the military will have to make final conclusions and decide whether they need a promising self-loading pistol under a powerful cartridge. Perhaps news of this kind will appear in the near future, and the public will know the real prospects of the new pistol.

In the meantime, you have to rely only on a limited amount of data and your own estimates. Apparently, the product "Boa" is a typical modern self-loading pistol, but it differs from many other samples by using a relatively powerful cartridge 9x21 mm, which gives it an advantage in combat qualities. Also, the differences can be found in some features of ergonomics, developed by industrial designers. At the same time, the internal mechanisms of Udawa are based on proven solutions, although they are adapted to the characteristic loads of a powerful ammunition.

What decision will be taken by the military, and what will be the fate of the new domestic gun "Boa" - a big question. In the light of published data, this model looks like a good modern weapon, able to find its place in the army. However, tests at the site must identify the strengths and weaknesses of the gun, so that the army can make an informed decision. It is quite possible such a situation in which the cons of the gun will not be able to outweigh the pros.

An ambiguous feature of the project should be considered as the used cartridge. Ammunition 9x21 mm were adopted by the army in 2003 year, but did not become really massive. This was due, primarily, to the insufficient number of weapons for them. It cannot be ruled out that “Boa” will eventually be able to change this situation, but for now the use of the “unusual” cartridge looks more like a minus. What the command thinks about this is perhaps it will become known later.

According to the news of recent months, already in December, the Ministry of Defense should complete state tests of a new self-loading pistol. Based on the results of these events, a decision will be made on the further fate of the “Boa”, as well as on the future of the PM and PU pistols. The army has to decide whether it needs a new weapon, and whether this new model will be promising development from TsNIITochmash.

On the materials of the sites:
http://ria.ru/
http://tass.ru/
http://iz.ru/
https://kalashnikov.ru/
https://modernfirearms.net/
http://bastion-opk.ru/
Author:
Photos used:
"Rossiyskaya Gazeta" / rg.ru, "Kalashnikov" / kalashnikov.ru
125 comments
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  1. polpot
    polpot 20 December 2018 05: 44
    +1
    Good weapons are never superfluous; we will pass the tests and see what they are capable of.
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 21 December 2018 11: 44
      +1
      - But he doesn’t shoot! - joyfully exclaimed Mikhalych at the end of military trials Glock Bay 17 epoxy.

      wassat
    2. rfv18
      rfv18 23 December 2018 17: 07
      +1
      The new pistol is designed for an increased power cartridge 9x21 mm, which should give it advantages over existing models, such as Makarov and Yarygin pistols.

      Everything, faucets, you can merge. Weapons on a 9x21 mm cartridge have no future and cannot have any future in the army.
      Too powerful. The recoil momentum is not at all childish.
      Maybe special services will do.
  2. Cruorvult
    Cruorvult 20 December 2018 06: 45
    +2
    IMHO is not a competitor to either PL-14 or PY, but CP1 - yes, it’s just somewhere in rebranding. Why do police need a pistol with a 9x21 cartridge?
    Unlike "Gyurza" it has standard trims and all sorts of terrible braces are not needed.
    1. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 20 December 2018 10: 50
      +2
      Quote: CruorVult
      Why do police need a gun with an 9x21 cartridge
      And what to do? request , too many bastards in the armored divorced!
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 21 December 2018 11: 48
      +5
      The funny thing is that in the photo there is a pistol with a silencer, and the cartridge is declared supersonic 400m / s.

      A pistol for 9x19 7N31 is quite sufficient. If you want to beat holes - charge 7P31. If you want to shoot quietly, load a subsonic 9x19 with a heavy bullet of 10 grams. Cartridge 9x21 - not needed from the word "in general".
      1. Michael HORNET
        Michael HORNET 27 December 2018 11: 41
        +1
        So make subsonic not a breakdown in any caliber
        Another thing is that for an army pistol such a 9x21 caliber is really not needed. 9x19 standard, what to invent?
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 1 January 2019 23: 25
          0
          Exactly. There is evil powder. The length of the 19 or 21 mm liner does not matter, but the "Makarovsky" barrel caliber for 9x21 ammunition makes you spend twice, although 9x19 7H21 solves everything that was announced for 9x21. Therefore, 9x21 is not needed.
          1. Bobik012
            Bobik012 13 January 2019 15: 16
            -1
            For the army rather needed. Apparently 9x19 did not suit. had to be made more powerful. And Makarov will serve in the police. What is good to look for. "outdated" :-) will come up with it too. First, do something at least similar, I'd better keep quiet about it.
            1. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul 14 January 2019 19: 32
              0
              The army already has 9x19 7H31 and there is no point in making another 9x21 cartridge with the same characteristics but with different logistics. Makarov in the police is the genocide of the police, because the bandits have any caliber from 9x19 to .50 Action Espress, depending on how much the bandit is in law.
              1. Valery Minsky
                Valery Minsky 23 January 2019 05: 21
                0
                And you blaspheme the entire service with an expensive heavyweight, with good returns .. with a probability of use close to 0 .. CP 1 is quite enough for a few combat units ..
                1. Horse, people and soul
                  Horse, people and soul 23 January 2019 15: 59
                  0
                  Every day I secretly wear one of the three Glocks - 17, 19 and 43 - depending on the time of year and clothes. Even our girls always carry a gun and do not complain.

                  winked
      2. Stavropol
        Stavropol 10 January 2020 19: 08
        0
        7N42 subsonic with chisel sharpening of the bullet core specifically for the boa
  3. Per se.
    Per se. 20 December 2018 07: 13
    +2
    Such impression, all the money is mastered, "saw the loot". GSh-18 was created long ago, and it can be improved further. Its noted disadvantages, in any case, are less significant than its advantages. In general, Vasily Petrovich Gryazev, simply, due to his talent, could not create a mediocre weapon. Who is sabotaging the promotion of this pistol, and why is another question.
    1. 2329 Carpenter
      2329 Carpenter 21 December 2018 22: 19
      0
      Immediately I recall the noise about the Striker, which our neo "nuggets" created "in three months", and which they were going to produce for our Armed Forces in Italy, so beloved by Rogozin (!)
      It took three months for these mastaks to attach machine-gun bipods (!) And a thirty-charge magazine to the gun. For the rest, it was impossible to find differences from GSh-18 in it.
      I agree with you 100% that the "creative" and "motivated-ambitious" well-groomed new-made "specialists" are quite motivated and have buried a wonderful pistol of wonderful designers. Nothing, as you know, personal ...
      And now, almost every year ... Gyurza, Rook, PL, Dartik, Berdysh, etc. And each is served as a replacement, finally, to PMU.
      With the means that these guys beat themselves out for R&D, it would have been possible for a long time to equip all the power structures of the Russian Federation with the same Gryazev-Shipunov pistol.
      Which, in addition to all the technical and ergonomic advantages, has at least its own face.
      Unlike gloko-and HK-like remake.
      1. Michael HORNET
        Michael HORNET 26 December 2018 22: 13
        +1
        Let's not mix flies and cutlets. The Strike 1 / Strizh pistol was developed by a group of enthusiasts and there was an attempt to put it into service. Since they did not agree on the amount of rollback, the gun did not pass the test. Then they began to produce it in Italy for sale in the commercial markets of Europe and the USA. Sold several thousand copies. Several modifications came out. Now it is sold in the USA under the name Archon B. Here is the topic
        https://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/4/2235772.html
        He has not the slightest relation to GSh-18 in any way. It is a completely independent design.
        1. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 15 February 2019 17: 32
          0
          Quote: Michael HORNET
          Swift was developed by a group of enthusiasts and there was an attempt to put it into service. Since they did not agree on the amount of rollback, the gun did not pass the test. Then they began to produce it in Italy for sale in the commercial markets of Europe and the USA.

          1. Swift was created by an Italian company. Previously, she had never engaged in the production of full-fledged weapons, and produced only scarecrows.
          2. The presence of a hairy arm did not help to establish production in Russia, because it is an ordinary sports pistol.
          3. The first half of the year of sales marked a huge price of $ 1900. I think it’s not necessary to continue further ...
  4. KBACYPA
    KBACYPA 20 December 2018 08: 05
    +5
    The point is probably not even sabotage. Obligatory conditions for army weapons are low cost and manufacturability, even to some extent detrimental to other characteristics, and the General Staff is quite expensive and not too technological. During the time required for its production, you can rivet fifty PM. Of course, the gun is not the weapon that is needed in such quantities, but nobody seems to be going to change the principles.
    1. Per se.
      Per se. 20 December 2018 09: 53
      0
      Quote: KBACYPA
      Mandatory conditions for military weapons are low cost and manufacturability
      If the GSH-18 is compared in simplicity and cheapness with the PM, the MP will be taken as a reference point, of course, any other pistol will be more difficult and more expensive than the PM. However.
      Since it was clear that in addition to the combat data of the pistol, the military would be interested in the cost of weapons in the new conditions, the designers of the GSH-18 had made a number of efforts in advance to make their brainchild simple enough for the technologists.
      Probably, first you need to decide for whom and which gun is needed. After looking for a compromise in the desired and possible. If you listen to shooters in a dash, this is one thing, if we combine the capabilities of our industry and the needs of the military, this is another.
      1. KBACYPA
        KBACYPA 20 December 2018 12: 08
        +3
        Quote: Per se.
        first you need to decide for whom and what kind of gun is needed

        But this is exactly the problem in the army. The times have come that a pistol (any) is no longer quoted on the battlefield. From the word "absolutely". It is no longer particularly needed even by pilots, tankmen, gunners and others from the same opera. But leaving the commander completely without a "last chance" weapon is also not the case. Therefore, to clearly formulate what is needed and why is still a task. By the way, PM is still out of competition for the "last chance" weapon. Maybe that's why they are not being removed either from service or from production. The best is the enemy of the good, and when it still comes, the best ...
        1. Per se.
          Per se. 20 December 2018 14: 16
          +3
          Quote: KBACYPA
          By the way, PM is still out of competition for the "last chance" weapon
          I hope you are here about PM not in the sense of "just shoot yourself"? On the "battlefield", and, accordingly, on the pistol, which is "not quoted" on this field, I disagree. If we talk about street fighting, more precisely, fighting in a building, it is preferable just a pistol cartridge, which has less ricochet, respectively, a submachine gun or a pistol, and not "Kalash" with its cartridge. Therefore, in spetsnaz, many will prefer the good old APS in this. I think that the GSH-18 is quite a worthy pistol, which, even without any "chips", such as the Picatinny rail, that where it is necessary and not necessary now to mold, PR weapons, will be a really powerful and convenient pistol. I hope that this creation of Arkady Georgievich Shipunov and Vasily Petrovich Gryazev will come into service with those units where they need it, as a powerful and convenient weapon.
          1. 2329 Carpenter
            2329 Carpenter 21 December 2018 22: 46
            0
            And where is the street fight and rebound? You, dear, from a humanitarian point of view, reason? So that the civilian population, or its not hooked?
            In a street (city) battle walls, doors, shelters must be broken through ...
            Therefore, the Germans considered PPSh ideal for street battles with its Mauser cartridge, and 71 local stores, and not their own MP.
            So far, of course, StG has not appeared.
      2. Wildcat
        Wildcat 20 December 2018 22: 41
        +3
        Quote: Per se.
        Quote: KBACYPA
        Mandatory conditions for military weapons are low cost and manufacturability
        If the GSH-18 is compared in simplicity and cheapness with the PM, the MP will be taken as a reference point, of course, any other pistol will be more difficult and more expensive than the PM. However.
        Since it was clear that in addition to the combat data of the pistol, the military would be interested in the cost of weapons in the new conditions, the designers of the GSH-18 had made a number of efforts in advance to make their brainchild simple enough for the technologists.
        Probably, first you need to decide for whom and which gun is needed. After looking for a compromise in the desired and possible. If you listen to shooters in a dash, this is one thing, if we combine the capabilities of our industry and the needs of the military, this is another.

        hi
        IMHO, it seems to me that you are right and wrong at the same time.
        As you rightly noted, "first you need to decide for whom and what kind of gun you need", and then "look for a compromise in the desired and the possible."
        Starting with the first part, you will notice that the requirements of different "users" are different. For example, if the military and individual police units are ready to put up with the large size and weight of a holster weapon, as a necessary evil for a large store volume and better accuracy, then law enforcement officers, for whom the weapon is more of a means of self-defense, would like a weapon as compact as possible. And if the military is interested in a caliber that would allow hitting a target in an artificial satellite such as a helmet / body armor soldier without panels, it is advisable for law enforcement officers not to have a bullet that, after passing through the villain, also strikes a young violinist who, 20 meters away, crossed the road from a music school to a chess club. recourse And a compromise in this case is not the best solution.
        The best solution is to produce a line of pistols in different calibres and different sizes, as the same Glock, Sieg and other major manufacturers do. Fortunately, modern technologies allow this, and from the point of view of manufacturability, the polymer frames of modern pistols give somewhere -40% of the price of weapons made of metal.
        Another question is why we are constantly looking for a single solution, although our domestic market (and the other is unlikely to be) would have digested sports models, and separate pistols for the military and a separate pistol for off-duty law enforcement officers, and why not jokingly, several options for legal civilian short-handed, if allowed.
    2. 2329 Carpenter
      2329 Carpenter 21 December 2018 22: 38
      0
      But what about Gyurza, and everything else, post-Gyurzovskoye - are they very techological in comparison with GS?
      In general, to suspect the G-Sh tandem of low technology, this, you know, my friend ...
      Designers of the Stalinist school, this is what distinguished them - cheapness and simplicity. And that means technological effectiveness.
      1. Valery Minsky
        Valery Minsky 23 January 2019 05: 39
        0
        600 UE - GSh. + Is critical to pollution ..
        250 + UE on average - modern options ..
        And why not finalize the faculty? - bring it up to 2 kilograms - it’s easy to flash the armor .. and the ammunition is not weak
        and the stopping effect .. compensate for the rate of fire ..
    3. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 27 December 2018 11: 55
      0
      By the way, Strike 1 / Strizh / Stryk / Archon B, among other things, has a lifetime warranty and users praise it
      This is to the question "why was it not taken into service with the Russian army" - yes, because they did not agree about the introduction of cutlets, and this is sacred
      Talk to the developer of this gun himself - he’s on the Hansa in the corresponding topic - maybe he will tell you
      In general, the designs that GSh-18 and Strike 1 / Archon B are very interesting, each of them uses something new. Both have good development potential.
  5. Wildcat
    Wildcat 20 December 2018 09: 34
    +5
    "What will be the future of the new domestic pistol" Udav "is a big question. In the light of the published data, this sample looks like a good modern weapon capable of finding its place in the army." What is it made of, according to what scheme the locking is, how many cartridges are in the store, data on accuracy or "failure" tests - there is nothing (there is data on the caliber and there is only one plus: 9 * 21 for an army pistol "in place") ...
    The bottom line is 3 photos of different pistols (oh, those fantasies about the notches on the shutter cover winked well, at least someone in this project had fun lol ), with special thanks to Kinetics designers laughing : there is no store reset button - well, ..... (not needed), there is no automatic or mechanical fuse - why? To disassemble how to shoot with gloves / mittens, Kinetics, how much space have you left for the index finger in front of the trigger? Judging by the "design" of the shutter casing, Kinetics "got acquainted" with the work of ChZ (it's a pity that it's not the Glock gen5), but the trigger was open on the original models, but is it inconvenient to draw it? am
    IMHO: The desire to draw something and sell to the army is good, but since the siloviki began to order more or less in an organized manner, these orders will have "clear who" with their pictures and their products.
    Those siloviki, who can do more than others, will get what they want: Glock and his clones, and those who need to work among decent people will use ZIGs (we look in any search engine (or read the Kalashnikov magazine) winked ), with which pistols at competitions the FSO performs at competitions ...) and that’s all you need to know about the designs of domestic pistols and their manufacturers. crying
    In general, in the light of the published data, the "Boa constrictor" does not look like "a good modern weapon capable of finding its place in the army."
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 20 December 2018 23: 13
      0
      Quote: Wildcat
      only on the initial models the trigger was open, but is it inconvenient to draw it?
      In the figure, the gun is deployed with the barrel muzzle, the trigger should not be visible.
  6. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 20 December 2018 10: 59
    +4
    And I like the Mauser! repeat
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 21 December 2018 13: 28
      +2
      There was such a famous gangster Lbov before the Revolution in tsarist Russia. Known for daring raids and robberies. He wore two such Mausers. Somehow the gendarmes overlaid his gang and he tried to escape. He fired back, dropped 20 rounds and decided to reload two rounds on the run. One of them in a hurry charged forward with a sleeve and Mauser jammed. More than 70 rounds of ammunition were found with him in clips and in bulk. I could not correctly insert the clip into the groove on the run and decided to recharge individually. It didn’t work out.

      Hanged him with other gang members.

      Moral: like it - keep it in a safe, admire it, and you must trust your life with reliable weapons.

      Glock is our everything!

      wink
      1. 2329 Carpenter
        2329 Carpenter 21 December 2018 22: 56
        0
        Was the S-96 unreliable?
        Many considered him "their everything".
        It’s important in someone’s arms a weapon ...
        But Ponte is the second thing.
        smile
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 22 December 2018 16: 07
          +1
          Mauser was expensive and unreliable. Ponte in those years - it was Mauser. And a leather jacket.
          laughing
  7. kakvastam
    kakvastam 20 December 2018 11: 00
    +5
    Kinetics designers and gunsmiths TsNIITochmash

    A frightening combination, it really smells like "girls-designers". Especially after this phrase:
    External contours of the future gun were determined taking into account technical limitations, ease of use, and artistic features.
  8. Catfish
    Catfish 20 December 2018 12: 28
    +3
    Quote: Nikolaevich I

    And I like the Mauser!


    And I got a beer with a roach! drinks
    -------------------------------------------------- --------------------------

    This "boa constrictor" looks like a rather clumsy product in all three of its forms. I wonder what kind of developments these, if I may say so, "designers" were engaged in earlier. There are no data, except for the cartridge, about it, but under this cartridge there has long been "Gyurza" and there are no complaints about it. So why is this monster being created, did you get extra money? Something is doubtful. And why should an army officer, let alone a policeman, carry such a burden? (the soldier has a machine gun, and the cop has a club). It would be better to seriously attend to the acceptance into service of a really reliable and necessary pistol.

    Thanks to Cyril for the information. At least something new has finally appeared. hi
    1. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 20 December 2018 14: 27
      +2
      We have a "divsit" with a vobla (!) ... we drink-sss beer with smelt! drinks I will not hide, having seen the information about the pistol "Boa constrictor", I experienced a "slight bewilderment ..." belay Different pistols demonstrated their "charm" in the internet and on page VO, and somehow I missed the "Boa constrictor"! The name "Gyurza" reminds me, for some reason, of another device - PP "Cheetah"! Attracts in "Cheetah" such a feature - "versatility" in terms of cartridges (up to 9 x 30 mm ...). "from the summer", I don't remember such tricks in the part of pistols, but maybe it is worth "coughing" such an idea? (Don’t "remember" the DPR!)
      1. Decimam
        Decimam 20 December 2018 16: 15
        +1
        And it is better that everything up to 14,5x114 could be used. That would be a gun. In the world, having no.
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 21 December 2018 20: 43
          0
          And equip them with giant humanoid fighting robots.

          wassat
    2. Decimam
      Decimam 20 December 2018 14: 32
      +1
      "I wonder what kind of developments these, if I may say so, "designers" were engaged in earlier.
      These designers developed the interiors of the Xantia X2, C5 models, the C3 Lumiere concept car, C3 Air, C6 Lignage, C4 Volcane, and the restyling of the Xsara model. Since 2000, participated in the creation of models of Yaris, Auris, Corolla, Avensis and concept cars MTRC and UUV for Toyota.
      And much more, a concept model of the piloted spacecraft "Rus". This is the multi-industry center of industrial design and innovation "ASTRAROSSA design" by Vladimir Pirozhkov.

      By the way, he’s not so clumsy. Normal gun.
      1. Yuriy_999
        Yuriy_999 21 December 2018 09: 38
        +1
        "ASTRAROSSA design" by Vladimir Pirozhkov
        This is not the Pirozhkov that seems to have worked as an automotive designer in France in the 90s?
        1. Decimam
          Decimam 21 December 2018 10: 03
          +2
          The same Pies
          1. Yuriy_999
            Yuriy_999 21 December 2018 10: 05
            0
            I am glad that someone is returning.
  9. Vovanya
    Vovanya 20 December 2018 13: 37
    +3
    This pistol simply has no chance not to be accepted into service, as TSNIITOCHMASH will simply crush other people's developments in order to push through their own. And they know how to do it (pouring shit on someone else's) perfectly - nothing personal ...
  10. Catfish
    Catfish 20 December 2018 16: 34
    +5
    Quote: Decimam

    By the way, he’s not so clumsy. Normal gun.


    Hmmm ... Dear Victor, in your post you posted a photo of "Gyurza", a pistol for which I have never had any complaints about both the performance characteristics and design. I meant exclusively that ditch, which was clearly misunderstood as "Boa constrictor", although a real boa constrictor would probably have strangled himself from the fact that some "designer" somehow caught the similarity of this freak with a noble snake. laughing
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 20 December 2018 16: 48
      +1
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Dear Victor, in your post you have placed a photo of "Gyurza", a pistol to which I have never had any complaints about both the performance characteristics and design.

      Is the descent too high?
    2. Decimam
      Decimam 20 December 2018 17: 34
      +3
      "in your post you put a photo of "Gyurza"
      Once again, I was convinced that a smartphone is not the best way to write comments.
  11. Catfish
    Catfish 20 December 2018 16: 51
    +1
    By no means, he sits very confidently in his hand, but here is the return on such a cartridge ... wink
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 20 December 2018 23: 16
      0
      Quote: Sea Cat
      but the return on such a cartridge ...
      9x19 under 900 J is. The same GSh-18 digests them.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 21 December 2018 20: 31
        +1
        Joules are Joules, but there is such a thing as CIP and SAAMI standards that set the maximum permissible pressure in the barrel.

        For 9x19 it is one, for 9mm NATO it is higher, and for the Russian 7H31 it is even higher. If the gun is not certified for this high pressure, it is impossible to poke 7H31 into it. Dangerously. Modern western 9x19 are certified under 9 mm NATO, unless it is some kind of especially tiny gun.

        Italian Fiocchi Black Mamba with a bullet of 100 grains give out 660 Joules, but they have standard pressure, not + P.

        Glock 17 is certified under 9 mm of NATO, GSh-18 under 7N31.

        But this does not mean that Glock will not be able to shoot 7N31. It can, because Glock 31 fires .357 Sig. You can modify Glock 31 (the barrel with a chamber 9x19) - and will eat 7N31, like relatives.

        If the gun is made correctly, recoil is not a problem even for 10 mm Auto and .357 Sig.
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 21 December 2018 20: 07
      +1
      The recoil is not so much from the cartridge (I calmly shoot with the pocket revolver .357 Magnums), but from the poor design of the pistol - the correct tilt of the grip and the "high grip" should reduce the toss and make double shots easier (double-tap).

      But this is not in this gun, because the designer thought that the gun was an iron or a hammer.
  12. beeper
    beeper 20 December 2018 16: 55
    +3
    A good design of any mechanism begins with a rational concept of its use and clarity of thinking of the designers, and with this the designers of the "Boa" have obvious "problems", not to mention the "ugly" design (in all the variants presented in this Article!) Of this pistol!
    The concept of an "army pistol chambered for 9x21 mm" seems dubious to me - alas, the wrong cartridge, by no means a massive one, and is unlikely to become so in the foreseeable future!
    The most important "combat quality" of any small arms is a well-aimed shot, which to a large extent depends not only on the "cartridge-weapon" complex, but also on the shooter.
    A reasonable optimum (according to the range of combat and production characteristics) for the designed army pistols I consider the widely used and affordable (including captured) pistol cartridge 9x19mm Para, and not overly powerful 9x21 mm!
    Although I understand the "motives" of the designers of the "Udav", there is a clearly visible desire to "redesign" in its own way and displace from, frankly, the narrowly specific "niche of the 9x21 mm cartridge" still "raw (and this is decades after the beginning of design and pilot production! ) "- and unfinished" Gyurza (the current Russian SR-1) "?! After all, even the name, probably, was chosen "with an eye" on the planned "strangulation" -such a subconscious association and, supposedly flattering for themselves, comparison with the previous niche "snake" ?! wink
    There should be a reasonable balance in everything, if you want to create a good small arms weapon for the army, you need, first of all, to think about the end user of this specific product, which, as a result of the combination of its combat and operational characteristics, should provide a tangible advantage in the fire duel!
    And, integrally, a higher ammunition power of 9x21 mm, in the end, in my opinion, will play a minus, not a plus. request Yes, at least, even the total weight of the pistol and ammunition constantly worn on oneself, not to mention the greater fatigue of the shooter in the process of firing and the greater spread of hits due to the strong recoil, the increased consumption of living and material resources for mass the production of such weapons and ammunition in wartime, in comparison with pistols for "ordinary" 9x19 mm Parabellum ammunition, limited by the high cost of ammunition and increased (in proportion to the growth of the cartridge power) wear and tear of the material part of the weapon, shooting training, or even almost complete absence of such, for the same reasons .... the topic is big and I see no reason to describe it in detail, since design is the same "art of compromise", like politics, losing in one thing, gaining in another ... and so on "ad infinitum" - largely depends on the general and specific erudition and inclinations of the creator of the machine or mechanism, even, it happens, the character of the designer himself is transferred to the machine. smile It is good when a designer has a complete idea of ​​the technological methods of manufacturing parts and assemblies, knows applied ergonomics, and does not deal with "clean design" in the light of another "trend" (in this case, mainly "notched" - I have the impression that these "virtual designers "compete with each other who outperforms whom in the" pretentiousness "of the drawn" notches on the slide "and" ribs on the frame "of the pistol ?! winked ) "... what, it is obvious to me, are the" Udavites "doing ?!
    No, finally, the whole world would not think about the combat experience of using pistols at this stage of "military history" and predict as accurately as possible - work out a reasonable one (without this, here is a "mega-cartridge-loader, who will squeeze in more cartridges, and then, even if the pistol stalls, the charging fingers dry , shake off the recoil hand ?! smile fanaticism "and crashing into the finger-hand of" auto-fuses "!) the concept of the future application, on the basis of which the required characteristics of the required sample should be set, and with maximum consideration of advanced high-performance technologies ?!
    And yet, in addition to the manufacturability of the design and reliability in battle, the pistol must be beautiful (externally and "internally" is one of the visual, intuitive even non-specialists, signs of rational thoughtful mechanisms), convenient and light (not only in weight, but also in everyday care of him), feel like an extension of the shooter's hand .... unfortunately, in the presented "Boa" I do not see anything of this, chi ne sticky ?! smile
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 21 December 2018 20: 10
      +2
      What can this 9x21 give versus 9x19 7H31?

      9x19 more versatile.
    2. 2329 Carpenter
      2329 Carpenter 21 December 2018 23: 06
      0
      They need to look into the 19th century and learn from Luger design.
      ... but their paw "up" looks very hairy.
      winked
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 22 December 2018 16: 11
        +2
        In the 21st century, they learn not from Luger at the beginning of the 20th century, but from Glock at the end of the 20th.

        After Glock’s patent has turned sour, Glock-like pistols do everything for everyone.
  13. Catfish
    Catfish 20 December 2018 17: 34
    +4
    Quote: pishchak

    There should be a reasonable balance in everything, if you want to create a good small arms weapon for the army, you must, first of all, think about the end user of this specific product,


    Good evening, comrade Pishchak! hi
    I’m glad to meet you, I haven’t seen each other for a long time, and I, by a sinful thing, thought that the moderator’s punishing hand had overtaken you too. A word of some kind - horror, even the nibs are shaking. wink

    So I talked about this above: why the hell is such a "d.u.r." Army men need it as a personal weapon. To go on guard, or will we help you? After all, "Gyurza" was created exclusively for the special services. I remember how this pistol first came to the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Forensic Medicine. There was a conflict between the cops and the "clerks", because of what the porridge was brewing there, I don't remember exactly, but the officer from the "office" shot the cylinder block of the "six" from the "Gyurza" and blew the cop's head off. It was somewhere in the middle, or in the late eighties. About "Gyurzu" then only rumors circulated, and when this pistol was brought for examination, everyone came to look at this new miracle. Hmmm, unfortunately, just look, because they gave him cartridges only for shooting (ballistics) and they could be counted on the fingers ... of one hand. But we were already digging around with this machine ... We took it apart, but with the assembly ... there was no instruction. But nothing, in an hour and a half, they still collected it, with the whole kagal. laughing For so long at one time I was busy only with assembling the "Mauser".

    Glad to chat with you, check back often, or something became boring on the site. drinks
    1. beeper
      beeper 20 December 2018 20: 34
      +3
      hi Good evening, comrade Sea Cat!
      Something, but the "punishing hand of the moderator" scares me least of all - after the posthumous "meeting with the Universal Mind", even in early childhood, even something completely "supernatural" and the dangers of my own life do not make "my veins shake" , but only translate "on the machine" and "extended time", but I appreciate your sparkling humor good ! smile
      I’m also glad to talk with you, and I read the comments on the site almost regularly, yours are one of the first under the Articles of VO, well, in your site profile, I’ve definitely read about ten pages from the mood yes .
      Recently, I began to notice the frequent failure of my ratings to be given to commentators (many times it was written to me immediately, allegedly, I already voted for this comment), and even general ones, for Articles, coupled with the fact that my "email" has already been "broken ", I associate this with the expected (in connection with the obvious preparation of a hot war of" common people "against Russia)" improvement "of the work of the Fashington" friends ", so, it is quite possible that your fears about my" disappearance "will come true, well then, do not dare ?! request
      "Gyurza" first saw and learned some of the details of the device, probably in the "tekhnikomolodezhevsk" collection "Arms" of the early 90s or, perhaps, on TV in the "perestroika" or "post-perestroika" years (when there was still a common TV with Russian) I don’t remember.
      It was clear that such a gun was by no means intended for the army. winked Its external appearance testified that the designer-gunsmith, trying to somehow reduce the size and save weight (and, perhaps, in pursuit of the "copyright" or patent, it happened under socialist "state capitalism", what can we say about times of the thieves' "holy deriban"), "original" - neglected the possible "overkill" and draft of the return spring put on the barrel (about the "under-self-cocking" trigger with a "Tokarevskaya" -type, overstressed and therefore often "axial" , the mainspring I did not know then).
      The automatic fuses in the form of narrow keys on the trigger and on the handle were immediately "disliked" - they were designed by a person who obviously did not often shoot a pistol and did not know at all the history of the creation of the domestic TT and why the rear "auto-fuse" did not take root on it, and the only remaining palliative, the "safety platoon" on the trigger, then began to be passed off as "ingenious simplicity, for immediate readiness for battle," supposedly so originally conceived by the designer Tokarev ... and the Gyurza pistol seems to me to be "unfinished" - not brought to A 100% combat state and a harmonious appearance, let alone "monkeying" in the form of a "Boa constrictor", in the same mega-narrow "niche", is seen as a desire to "cut the money" while a rich state customer "wanders in the fog of" conceptual "misunderstandings" ?!
      Health to you and your loved ones, comrade Sea Cat, All the best to you!
    2. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 27 December 2018 13: 24
      0
      THE LOCKING SYSTEM The Strike Locking System has no equal in the history of semiautomatic weapons. It is based on the "1 degree of liberty mechanical law" of the main components (Barrel, Locking Block and Bolt-slide). The major benefits of the invention are:

      - In line barrel operation with very tight tolerances with the slide - Lowest barrel centerline overhand grip in history (12 mm) - Lowest vertical mass movement on operating pin (locking block only and not the whole barrel) - Fastest locking-unlocking time - Fully rail-guided barrel inside the slide, for tremendous accuracy coupling with the aiming devices - Highest ammunition feed level into the barrel, for trouble-free use of any type of bullet, with no deformation upon chambering - Shortest unlocking-locking action travel (4mm diameter operating pin) - Totally sealed barrel-to-slide ejection port area, for safest operations of the gun in mud, dirt, dust - The strongest slide at ejection port area, due to the minimal open profile of the same "
  14. Catfish
    Catfish 20 December 2018 17: 41
    +1
    Quote: Decimam

    Once again, I was convinced that a smartphone is not the best way to write comments.


    Thank God I don't have a smartphone, I go with an old "tomochi". And the pistol is still clumsy, look at the grip and trigger guard, especially at the place of their connection - this cannot be convenient by definition. Precisely these "constructors" used to be designed exclusively for jackhammers. hi
    1. Decimam
      Decimam 20 December 2018 19: 26
      +2
      Obviously, I’m not as experienced as most site specialists, so I can form my own opinion about the weapon final only by testing it personally. Therefore, I have no reason to praise or blame this sample.
  15. Alexey Lobanov
    Alexey Lobanov 20 December 2018 19: 02
    +1
    Quote: Wildcat
    moreover, special thanks should be said to the Kinetics designers: there is no store reset button - well ..... (not needed)

    To be fair, I want to note that the magazine reset button in the Kinetics project is one piece with the lower part of the trigger guard, which can move to the right or left relative to the axis of the barrel. Pay attention, the vertical part of the trigger guard has a cut, there is a hinge. An interesting solution.
    1. Wildcat
      Wildcat 20 December 2018 22: 03
      +1
      Quote: Alexey Lobanov
      Quote: Wildcat
      moreover, special thanks should be said to the Kinetics designers: there is no store reset button - well ..... (not needed)

      To be fair, I want to note that the magazine reset button in the Kinetics project is one piece with the lower part of the trigger guard, which can move to the right or left relative to the axis of the barrel. Pay attention, the vertical part of the trigger guard has a cut, there is a hinge. An interesting solution.

      hi
      Thanks for the comment! If the upper part of the casing-shutter is "very reminiscent" of the latest CZ models, then this idea seems to be a "creative rethinking" of PPQ (photo is not inserted, I will find another).

      And what did they come up with a fuse?
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 21 December 2018 13: 30
        +3
        The Estonian police changed these PPQs to Glock 19. These PPQs are unreliable, as it turned out.

        I especially got the pedal to reset the store (in your photo) instead of the traditional button.
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 21 December 2018 20: 13
      +3
      This "Walter" pedal was repeatedly cursed by thousands of shooters around the world, so that Walter had to release the M2 model with a traditional button, and the old model was discontinued.

      Why copy the bad experience, especially the rather old experience?
    3. 2329 Carpenter
      2329 Carpenter 21 December 2018 23: 16
      0
      Alexey Lobanov! A really cool airplane on your ava!
      good
  16. Alexey Lobanov
    Alexey Lobanov 20 December 2018 22: 26
    +1
    Quote: Wildcat
    And what did they come up with a fuse?

    Obviously, the fuse (s) is automatic (s), in the image and likeness of the Glock, except for the trigger lock. Probably - the fuse of the drummer and the "spoiler" whispered. And regarding the reset of the store, they have a completely new idea, I don’t remember anyone else. PPQ still has a separate button (only pressed down), but here the "button" is the whole bracket and is pressed sideways .. But the question is, how reliable is it?
  17. senima56
    senima56 21 December 2018 12: 40
    +2
    I have been following the history of the creation of pistols in our army for a long time. It looks like this topic "Replacing PM" is endless !!!! How many such "replacements" were there already ?! In 2003 (!!!) "three replacements" were put into service: GSh-18, SR-1, PYa! Already 15 years have passed, so what? Where are these "replacements" in the troops, in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, in the FSB? So with PM-mi the bulk is worn! At one time they promised a "replacement" in the form of "Swift"! Mr. A. Kirisenko was just drooling about! What a great pistol! So what? .... For a long time there has been talk about the PL-15 (PL-15k) - another "replacement" of the PM-y. Dmitry Lebedev is an ingenious designer, he created a wonderful pistol ... BUT will it go into mass production? Now here is the "Boa constrictor". After all that has been heard and promised, I somehow cannot believe that a really good pistol will appear in the army en masse! We do not need "the best in the world, which has an analogue of an analogue, and superior, world-class exemplars"! Give the army just a "good, handy, trouble-free pistol"! Such as the Kalashnikov assault rifle!
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 21 December 2018 18: 57
      +1
      Quote: senima56
      I have been following the history of the creation of pistols in our army for a long time. It looks like this topic "Replacing PM" is endless !!!! How many such "replacements" were there already ?! In 2003 (!!!) "three replacements" were put into service: GSh-18, SR-1, PYa! Already 15 years have passed, so what? Where are these "replacements" in the troops, in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, in the FSB? So with PM-mi the bulk is worn! At one time they promised a "replacement" in the form of "Swift"! Mr. A. Kirisenko was just drooling about! What a great pistol! So what? .... For a long time there has been talk about the PL-15 (PL-15k) - another "replacement" of the PM-y. Dmitry Lebedev is an ingenious designer, he created a wonderful pistol ... BUT will it go into mass production? Now here is the "Boa constrictor". After all that has been heard and promised, I somehow cannot believe that a really good pistol will appear in the army en masse! We do not need "the best in the world, which has an analogue of an analogue, and superior, world-class exemplars"! Give the army just a "good, handy, trouble-free pistol"! Such as the Kalashnikov assault rifle!

      Please - Makarov’s pistol.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 21 December 2018 20: 21
        +1
        Such as Kalashnikov, only Glock. As soon as he was not tortured.

        Glock is a system of equally made pistols of seven calibers and five sizes.

        From .380 (9x17), 9x19, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, 10 mm Auto, .45 GAP, .45 Auto, from long (two different lengths) sport pistols, standard, compact, subcompact and slim with single-row store.
        1. 2329 Carpenter
          2329 Carpenter 21 December 2018 23: 22
          0
          Horse ++, is not funny even once ...
    2. 2329 Carpenter
      2329 Carpenter 21 December 2018 23: 20
      +1
      Would have accepted "Voevodin" in 41st, there would have been the same AK among the short-barrels.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 23 December 2018 14: 35
        0
        Whatever is done, all for the better ...

        Voevodin was 40 years late, because in the 30s there was already Brownig High Power, whose basic decisions copy almost everything.

        They gave Stalin a gun, but Stalin clearly did not like this freak personally. Otherwise, they would have shot a hundred or two, but the gun would have gone into the troops.
    3. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 26 December 2018 22: 24
      0
      So handguns do pistols, which they don’t understand a thing about what they do. Naturally things are still there. Because the management of factories is incompetent in everything except the development of funds. Designs cannot cure even childhood diseases. All three pistols are conventionally adopted. Yes, what kind of gun is there - a single cartridge of the three available has not been selected
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 26 December 2018 23: 31
        0
        "There is no truth on earth, but there is no truth above ..." (C)

        There is no school using a gun. There are already more than a hundred-plus years three shots at 25 meters and that’s it.

        If there is a school, then only IPSC specialties and shooters have, and the latter is moving farther and farther from the initial practical use towards ambitions to become an Olympic sport.

        No school -> no terms of reference -> no result -> we have what we have.
  18. Catfish
    Catfish 21 December 2018 22: 21
    +1
    Quote: Decimam
    form your own opinion about the weapon is final, only by testing it personally


    Good evening, Victor. hi

    Naturally, without trying "the taste, you will not know how edible" smile
    But sometimes you come across freaks so rudely slabby that they are not something that you don't want to try, but it's disgusting to take them in your hand. And perfectly working machines are so attractive outwardly that they themselves "ask" in the hand. Well, so, offhand: Р.08, Р.38, М1911, and our APS ... good
    1. 2329 Carpenter
      2329 Carpenter 21 December 2018 23: 27
      0
      R.08! Nothing more beautiful has been done yet ... good
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 22 December 2018 16: 31
        +1
        To whom the mare is the bride. Although the horse to hear it ...

        laughing

        A weapon should be a purely snail thing. And reliable.
        I do not collect weapons. I shoot him. I shoot a lot.
        As I consider the money that I burn for ammunition, I pay.

        fool
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 22 December 2018 16: 40
      0
      The phenomenon of the human hand is that after half an hour of matting and freezing in any hand, any gun feels comfortable. Moreover, the shooter thinks not about the gun, but about the target, where his bullet flies.

      And, here, an intuitively even front sight when placing a weapon in the direction of the target is not at all. I have a straight front sight only on a 2 1/4 "Ruger SP101 revolver. As you do not poke them in the direction of the target, even with your eyes closed, the front sight is always even. And when changing the Glock model (size) after half an hour of mating and blasting, the same The correct balance of weapons is important for an intuitively even front sight. On the 19th Glock, this is easier for me than with the 17th.
      1. 2329 Carpenter
        2329 Carpenter 22 December 2018 18: 53
        +1
        For the last 20 years I have been interested in the topic "Pistol and sights". I believe that in a fleeting pistol shootout, no one will give time to combine the slot and the front sight. Shooting is carried out intuitively at the enemy's corps.
        Sights are purely sporting tools, and are only good at dashes or initial training.
        Who has any opinion on this, gentlemen?
        hi
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 23 December 2018 14: 10
          +1
          Yes and no. And true and false.

          Pistol shooting distances from point blank range to 15 meters (shooting distance in corridor rooms. In sports, IPSC targets are set for competitions further than 25 meters, but this is only to create additional difficulties and increase interest.

          A year or two ago, a new class of Standard Optics pistol appeared in IPSC. That is, the pistols were originally designed to be used with an external additional sight.

          That is, immediately after the Glock, several leading manufacturers began to produce pistols with a modular mount of "red dot" sights. And why? Because it has become in demand.

          At close range, a pistol is fired simply by moving the weapon towards the target using the unique property of a person to point to objects with his index finger. Only here, instead of a finger, is a gun.

          But you can't really get to 25 meters and you need to aim. Here the "red dot" gives a significant bonus, allowing you to quickly make an accurate shot.

          Everything that makes it possible to beat the enemy for a split second - everything is in demand.
          1. 2329 Carpenter
            2329 Carpenter 23 December 2018 14: 23
            0
            Well, about 5 years ago, they proved to me that without a front sight and a slot, a pistol is not a weapon, and the "red dot" cannot replace them in any way.
            So these are already atavisms, and for a long time.
            1. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul 23 December 2018 14: 46
              0
              Here are the models with MOS - provide standard use of the "red dot".

              https://eu.glock.com/en/products/pistols


              Standard mechanical sights will not go anywhere. For military use, there are tritium dots that glow 25 years and the first 12.5 years as brightly as possible.

              For police officers and special forces, the "red dot" is always a choice. Some people prefer tritium points.

              I have tritium dots on all Glocks, and a "red dot" on a carbine kit, if I need to use the Glock with a stock and a silencer.
    3. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 23 December 2018 15: 18
      0


      Sometimes you don’t have to take it in your hand to predict the fate of another freak.

      PSH-4 (Shevchenko pistol) participated in the competition for the replacement of 1911 in the United States.

      What did they have in mind when they applied for participation?

  19. Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 23 December 2018 15: 35
    +1
    Quote: Carpenter 2329
    Or Walter PP was someone's personal affection, like there was Glock at the Horse ...


    A horse is a different story altogether. Since 2011, the horse has shot a couple of tens of thousands from all his pistols and saw how the Chez broke (competitors carry a bag of springs) and Sig (the bolt delay broke) and shot Glock with bare hands at -35C (sowed gloves. ..) and there was not a single delay due to Glock. Because Glock is the gun that the Horse wears every day, changing only the model depending on the clothes. Glock is a gun that you can trust life.

    But before and after the war, Walter PP was really popular. Sentenced NKVDshniki were shot from him. His main and most widespread caliber was 7.65x17, which was really easy to shoot from. But to do 9x18 in a pistol with a circuit without locking - they got what they got.

    Shooting 7.65x17 from Walter and 9mm with PM - the sensation and results are two big differences.

    And why did you want Walter PP, and not Browning High Power?

    And because there was no good pistol school (for use) and the pistol was supposed to be mostly used sometimes (shoot yourself, shoot the deserter, stop the fleeing criminal ...)
    1. tracer
      tracer 23 December 2018 17: 01
      +1
      I am certainly not a horse, but I also understand the horse business. Yes, the chasses are broken by springs. Even Shade quacks. A friend's springs grunted at the ZIG, too, although it has already hit 30 thousand. It's all about the "nine". You see, the "horse" ... There are not very many people who are really familiar with various pistols. Those who are "supposed" on the site will not graze this. Those for whom this is a sport, there are also very few of them, and there are only a few on the site. The law on weapons in Russia very much slows down the development of shooting sports, and it is not necessary to say that every interested amateur shooter can pay serious money and keep a pistol in the shooting range. Not everyone is far from everyone. Only now out of 10 amateurs 3-4 will become pro, the rest will never freak with weapons, and if necessary, they will always skillfully use them.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 23 December 2018 18: 30
        0
        Only out of 10 lovers of 3-4, the pros will become pros, the rest will never be weird with weapons, and if necessary, they will always be able to use them skillfully.


        Nothing professional can appear from an empty space and "suddenly" cannot appear.

        As an Arabian proverb says, nothing can be poured out of an empty jug.

        lol

        In order to achieve something, you still need to make your own efforts, time and money.
  20. Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 23 December 2018 15: 54
    0
    Quote: Carpenter 2329
    I believe that in a short-lived pistol shootout, no one will give time to combine the slot and the front sight


    Just watch the video ...

  21. tracer
    tracer 23 December 2018 16: 42
    +1
    The pistol grip with "reverse sweep"? .... Bravo ...... Do the designers know what a pistol looks like? Apparently they know approximately .... Very approximately. You know, it doesn't even make me laugh, but the situation with the "new pistol." Soon every equipment booth in the USA will start producing its own models of pistols, but we cannot make one model. All freaks are miscarriages ... Why is the General Staff "underdone"? What for all the years to bring to mind no one descent and all children's sores? TT ha sits like a glove in his hand, shoots perfectly ... I won't even say ...
    And then another sloppy ... yes in the project ...
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 23 December 2018 18: 39
      +1
      The pistol is such a special weapon where the human-weapon connection is very important.

      Do designers know what a gun looks like?


      To start designing, it would be good for the designer to shoot pistols on the market under the guidance of an intelligent instructor, instead of reinventing bad bike from scratch.
      1. Michael HORNET
        Michael HORNET 26 December 2018 22: 40
        0
        The GSh-18 pistol is better than Glock) they simply cannot bring it to mind, because its designers have died, and there are simply no current ones - there are only effective managers and executives who are concerned about the use of funds. The reality is rising knee. The personnel and management of the plant are incapacitated. Here is the answer
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 26 December 2018 23: 40
          0
          GSh-18 pistol is better than Glock) they simply cannot bring it to mind


          It is a matter of faith that is best left to the church.

          lol

          You compare what is practically absent (there is no serial production of GSh-18) with the fact that Glock has been available in 1980 generations, in 5 calibers and 7 sizes since the 5s, and the experience of use is collected from users around the world and has really verified shot more than 350 thousand.

          hi
  22. Alexey Lobanov
    Alexey Lobanov 24 December 2018 09: 25
    0
    Why not introduce a system for automatically resetting the store immediately after setting the shutter lag (without any buttons), and, accordingly, in the reverse order, automatically removing the shutter lag immediately after the adjoining new store (equipped)? I don’t see any technical difficulties.
    Why not combine in the trigger guard the functions of a forced magazine release button, a disassembly lever and a forced release from the slide delay as in "Kinetics"?
    Such a gun would be innovative.
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 24 December 2018 23: 12
      0
      The easier the handling of weapons, the better. But...

      As a rule, additional functions lead to the re-complication of weapons, the addition of new parts and ultimately to a decrease in reliability.

      I will now tell you about Walter PPS, which is flat and is available in two calibers 9mm and .40S & W. So ... the Germans made plastic rear replaceable parts of the grip for adjusting to the palm, and they took it into their heads to add a fuse so that the pistol would not fire without this backplate? Is it reasonable? Hehehe ... in short, the gun falls on the asphalt, concrete, on any hard surface and if it falls unsuccessfully, this rear plastic crap flies off in an unpredictable direction. As a result, we get absolutely useless crap from a self-defense pistol at the moment when the pistol is needed. It is vital.

      Glock of the 5th generation has a two-way shutter delay button and the store reset button can be rearranged.

      There is no problem with either the store reset button or the shutter lag to do anything else with this. The shooter should know clearly: he pressed the button - the store flew out.

      Pressed ЗЗ - the cartridge will be charged. At the moment, depending only on the will of the shooter, and not on the will of the designer.
  23. Wildcat
    Wildcat 24 December 2018 12: 55
    0
    Quote: Horse, people and soul
    The Estonian police changed these PPQs to Glock 19. These PPQs are unreliable, as it turned out.

    I especially got the pedal to reset the store (in your photo) instead of the traditional button.

    Once I got into the hands of PPQ, there was a slight discomfort due to the store reset key, but this is probably a matter of habit. Like Glock 34, which compensates for its indecency for me with a good fly and the whole thing. smile
    The movement "down" on the trigger guard, IMHO, is safer than the movement "sideways".
    hi
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 24 December 2018 23: 01
      0
      The problem with the pedal is that humans don't have a thumb long enough to reach the pedal without changing grip. If you change your grip, you waste time. You waste time - in the real world you can get a "penalty" bullet.
      1. Wildcat
        Wildcat 24 December 2018 23: 06
        0
        Quote: Horse, people and soul
        The problem with the pedal is that humans don't have a thumb long enough to reach the pedal without changing grip. If you change your grip, you waste time. You waste time - in the real world you can get a "penalty" bullet.

        Forefinger had to pervert repeat , big - yes, it didn’t grow, I had to change the grip yes
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 25 December 2018 00: 07
          0
          For the index finger immediately DQ (disqualification) you catch. And why? Because in the barrel the cartridge can be and instead of the pedal you press the trigger.

          You change the magazine when moving between targets and the "shooting" finger inside the trigger guard = DQ.
          1. Wildcat
            Wildcat 25 December 2018 10: 17
            0
            Quote: Horse, people and soul
            For the index finger immediately DQ (disqualification) you catch. And why? Because in the barrel the cartridge can be and instead of the pedal you press the trigger.

            You change the magazine when moving between targets and the "shooting" finger inside the trigger guard = DQ.

            Yes, I just tried PPQ once, there were no competitions! repeat But the finger inside the bracket is yes, the right way to DQ.
  24. Alexey Lobanov
    Alexey Lobanov 24 December 2018 13: 46
    0
    Quote: Wildcat
    The movement "down" on the trigger guard, IMHO, is safer than the movement "sideways".

    In the case of the automatic reset of the magazine and the subsequent automatic reset of the slide delay, the bracket will rarely be used at all, only for disassembly, or "non-combat" manipulations when removing a stuck sleeve or undershooting. So, it can be made "tight" enough for safety.
    1. tracer
      tracer 24 December 2018 17: 52
      0
      The idea is bad because stores lose everything and get dirty with sand, they just import it. From that, no one does it.
      1. Wildcat
        Wildcat 24 December 2018 23: 24
        0
        Quote: tracer
        The idea is bad because stores lose everything and get dirty with sand, they just import it. From that, no one does it.

        Such a swivel bracket ... yes, a gloomy Teutonic genius.
        I remembered: "Tell the sovereign that the British do not clean their guns with bricks ..." - the shooters drop the shops from foreign pistols directly onto the concrete floor / ground and then they work (and not very much from the Viking ....).
        And I also remembered: “In response to Stalin’s order to copy the“ super-fortress, ”Tupolev said that he could make the plane better. In response to such a proposal, the“ leader of the peoples ”uttered a truly epochal phrase:“ You don't need better. Do the same "." Let them copy the Glock line (with a ready-made port for optics) and .... so that all discussions about the ideal pistol end with the answer "why discuss something? Calibers from 9 * 17 to 9 * 21 and .45, for fans .50AE, sizes - from pocket to holster with a butt. But there is no ideal, hehe. "
        hi
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 25 December 2018 00: 29
          0
          Let them copy the Glock line (with a ready-made port for optics) and .... so that all discussions about the ideal pistol end with the answer "why discuss something?


          And you don't need to copy. Buy a license for Glock 31 and make 9x19 chambered barrels for it to shoot 7N31. On the 31st, you just change the barrels .357 Sig, .40 S&W and 9x19, recoil spring and magazines.

          And the shutter will be proud RUSSIA or even RUSSIA.

          This will once and for all close the "pistol question" in Russia.

          hi

          Under Glock on IGB Austria there are even trunks with the Makarov chamber.
        2. tracer
          tracer 25 December 2018 04: 56
          0
          And the port for optics port is how important? I got this. He's not needed. Experimentally put on Dream Weight Dream 41, Smith Weson MP9, KEL TEC PMR 30, Glock 34 .. Worst of all on Glock and Smith. I did not like it in one word. Removed from all except the 41st .. A flat pistol front sight allows you to quickly aim at the target and shoot. THE SECOND GUN IS NOT SECOND. And to release a licensed Glock would be yes, not bad. DO THE SAME NAGANA AND NOTHING.
          1. Wildcat
            Wildcat 25 December 2018 10: 31
            0
            Quote: tracer
            And the port for optics port is how important?
            /////
            And to release a licensed Glock would be yes, not bad. DO THE SAME NAGANA AND NOTHING.

            Let there be a port for optics, not the most difficult thing. Moreover, for an inexperienced shooter, a red dot collimator is perhaps the best thing, especially in poor lighting conditions or even at night.
            / / /
            It seems that Promtechnology was releasing Glocks (now no one will give a license, of course, so all that remains is "to make the same").
            1. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul 25 December 2018 14: 54
              +1
              Austrians are traditionally more friendly to Russia, especially when you consider the size of its market.

              The red dot on the bracket to the frame is one thing (stable in the same place), and the red dot moving with the shutter is another. IMHO, the shutter is not so convenient, but not so cumbersome.
              1. Wildcat
                Wildcat 25 December 2018 15: 40
                0
                Quote: Horse, people and soul

                The red dot on the bracket to the frame is one thing (stable in the same place), and the red dot moving with the shutter is another. IMHO, the shutter is not so convenient, but not so cumbersome.

                I’ll add a training video to our serious conversation (it’s better to turn off the sound only winked ) fellow with examples of "discipline trigger" and your respected side bracket for optics wink

                "Sword 9 mm series" - what is it like? And what "pribludy"! winked
                hi
                1. Horse, people and soul
                  Horse, people and soul 25 December 2018 17: 40
                  0
                  Chetarzhu over Hollywood - Latinos turned on a finger cocked single-action 1911. Well, Debilitas mentis ...

                  wassat

                  The external bracket for the frame is the usual IPSC configuration in the Open division.

                  1. Wildcat
                    Wildcat 25 December 2018 20: 33
                    0
                    Quote: Horse, people and soul
                    Chetarzhu over Hollywood - Latinos turned on a finger cocked single-action 1911. Well, Debilitas mentis ...

                    Everything there is "more complicated and prettier", variants of Taurus (nee Beretta92).
                    Tybalt's (John Leguizamo) 'Rapier 9mm Series R' pistols by far and away steal the show. They feature compensators, extended spring guides and extended, gold-plated barrels, with custom 'Holy Mary' grips. Accuracy can also be improved with the added option of attaching a C-more scope. Seemingly like every other pistol in the movie, it also features gold detailing. (Gold-plated safeties, triggers etc.)
                    [media = http: //www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/a/a4/RJ-00616.jpg/602px-RJ-00616.jpg]
                    A good, by the way, weapon reference
                    http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Romeo_%2B_Juliet
                    There is even Maksim Perepelitsa, in which the first appearance of Kalashnikov rifles in movies winked
                    1. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 25 December 2018 22: 49
                      0
                      And, true, berettoobraznaya gansterniggerskaya crap.

                      laughing
                  2. tracer
                    tracer 26 December 2018 02: 03
                    0
                    This is understood by the Hedgehog. Even more so for a horse. The head is several times larger. Any red dot will scatter or get lost from the number of shots fired by athletes. Therefore, the side bracket is "our everything". Only at Kalashnikov's at 12 and 15 m, the nifiga does not get loose on the removable lid. And it's on the machine !!! Apparently the athletes do not know and how they hang them on the side ..
                    1. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 26 December 2018 17: 03
                      0
                      The shock loads during frequent and prolonged shooting for the bracket on the frame and for the MOS on the slide (aka shutter) are undeniably different.

                      However, they make the MOS mount on the slide (more and more often) and there is a choice of ultra-light reddots for him. If it were all so bad, they would not order such music.

                      For athletes, the Snandard-Optics class was introduced in IPSC just for baking with a MOS mount.
                      Here athletes are surprised by the flying red dots.

                      laughing

                      I have tritium points on the bake, and the reddot only on the KPOS G2 carbine kit. With him I shot some small competitions in the RCC division (Pistol Caliber Carbine) and even got medals. bully

                      I want to change red-dot. Now there is a prismatic Vortex AR, but it should have a distance of 10 cm from the eye. This is not always convenient when shooting from uncomfortable positions. I want to change it to a holographic one, which can be installed further from the eye and is not so sensitive to parallax.
          2. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 25 December 2018 14: 59
            +1
            For combat pistols there is a tritium-fiber sight (only the rear sight is used, and the front sight is not used at all). Actually, the target is guided faster than a traditional front sight slot.

            And not as bulky and delicate for military use as a light red dot for installation on the shutter.

            1. tracer
              tracer 27 December 2018 06: 08
              0
              I do not like not adjustable flies. You change a cartridge and what? I prefer micrometric Italian adjustable. Very emotional almost do not differ in size from relatives, but you can shoot perfectly vertically. Too lazy to post a photo.
              1. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 1 January 2019 23: 39
                0
                For an IPSC target, it doesn't matter if you hit 25 meters per centimeter or two in which direction, because you need to shoot a powerful cartridge from 9x19 or in major starting from .40S & W, accurately and quickly and the distance there is from several meters to 25-30.

                The micrometer is there, like a cow's saddle, because as you shoot not only with a different cartridge, but also at different distances, by golly. For the result, it would be better if I got in and not very beautiful, but quickly finished the exercise without penalty points.

                Hands of a shooter give more error than changing a cartridge, moreover, changing a cartridge gives an error through the hands of a shooter, how he reacts to recoil and how correct his grip is.

                A heavy pistol, a heavy bullet, and a cartridge's minimum power factor forgive the shooter's mistakes. A light pistol, a light high-velocity bullet is a major power factor - and hits are no longer there. And it is not the cartridge or the pistol that is to blame.

                hi

                Happy New Year!
      2. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 24 December 2018 23: 34
        0
        In swamp competitions I'm in beautiful white pants fool slipped in the rain and with Glock fell into a peat or clay puddle. I take out the baking - from this whole shit. He shook it off and ran on. There were no delays.

        Then between stages washed baking under a stream of water. I cleaned and oiled at home.

        In short, it’s enough to rinse the shops at Glock from any asshole under a stream of water.
  25. Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 24 December 2018 23: 26
    0
    Quote: Wildcat
    Like Glock 34, which compensates for its indecency for me with a good fly and the whole thing.


    For Glock, in any shop, a wide selection of any sighting, trigger parts, shops, etc. Assemble yourself as you want and ... cheaply!

    Glock 34 has the same frame as Glock 17 in terms of oversight, but the balance ... the weight distribution is different, yes.

    In the hand, the 3rd, 4th and 5th generation of Glock differ in oversight.
    1. tracer
      tracer 25 December 2018 05: 06
      0
      The bald line on these Gloki is not only like a barbie, even though every day change clothes. On my 34 - ke I like grip. The balance for the training pistol is quite standard. If normal vision no stray on the frame do not need to put. Any Glock can be imprisoned for whatever you want, even with Zvarovski dust.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 25 December 2018 14: 42
        0
        When I chose the 17th for myself, the 3rd generation was on sale and the 4th just came out. Here in the 4th handle is the SF size (short frame) and with the back pad it turns out the size of a 3rd generation. With my short fingers, the 4th generation somehow got better in the palm of my hand. And the 5th generation without protrusions under the fingers is even better.

        Now re-released 17L in the third generation I don’t know why ... making Open IPSC out of it is pretty stupid. There is a dominance of 1911 .38 Super and .45 ACP.

        IMHO for tactical sports a barrel longer than 4-5 "is not needed. But if the barrel is long, then the red dot greatly speeds up aiming. Only it should be attached with a bracket to the frame, and not fidget back and forth with the bolt.

        Therefore, I agree with you. On the shutter, the red dot is not very convenient.
  26. Catfish
    Catfish 27 December 2018 14: 10
    0
    Quote: pishchak

    Recently, I began to notice the frequent failure of my marks to be given to commentators (it happened many times that I was written right away, allegedly I had already voted for this comment), and even general ones, for Articles,


    Good day to a good friend! hi

    Faced the same problem, one in one. Moreover, given that I basically do not put cons.
    Maybe it's just system glitches, because sometimes everything goes fine.

    I was glad to talk. All the best to you and good health! Your M. Cat. Holiday greetings! drinks
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 27 December 2018 17: 02
      0
      I noticed that if you go from different computers, tablets, phones, then the login flies. You need to log in again and there will be pluses for you.
  27. Karl Ivanovich
    Karl Ivanovich 5 January 2019 12: 26
    0
    The 9x21 cartridge is just another "cut".
    9x19 "couple" - great and eternal.
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 5 January 2019 20: 14
      0
      Theoretically, in 9x21 you can pour more evil gunpowder, but then the gun will change and the number of shooters falling out of it will sharply decrease. A heavy gun is hard to carry. Light gun - hard to shoot. A game of compromise.

      What is not right, 50AE?

      laughing

      It just so happened that a gun is a weapon that interacts with the shooter more than any other firearm. Here the gun is akin to a saber. Too long and heavy - and it is already impossible for her to beat the middle shirt. So is the gun.

      For more than a century, 9x19 has been working. They added gunpowder and it turned out 9 mm NATO. They poured even more gunpowder and put an easy high-speed armor-piercing bullet - it turned out 7N31. But geometrically it’s the same 9x19, although the steel for weapons and the allowed maximum pressure in the barrel are completely different than at the beginning of the 20th century for Parabellum.

      Western attempts to replace 9x19 mainly to reduce the cost of the cartridge and increase armor piercing. So far, 5.7 mm and 4.6 mm have not been able to replace the 9 mm NATO. Nine is still cheaper, more massive and ... it works!
  28. AKS-U
    AKS-U 25 January 2019 00: 17
    +1
    "... a project without a future." Exactly. This pestle will be where the AEK-971 (A-545), and the T-14 "Armata", and the engines on the Su-57. And further, further down the list. All controlling stakes in our leading military-industrial complex enterprises are in the hands of citizens living on the territory of the NATO bloc. And it, and other products, will be put into service when the enemy occupies the Istra-Volokolamsk line. Then ...
  29. varela
    varela 30 January 2019 10: 29
    +1
    Another project, another drank ...
    Yes, how many of them already, these imperfections!
    And things are still there, it seems PM will calmly meet its centenary in the troops and the Ministry of Internal Affairs.
  30. senima56
    senima56 7 February 2019 17: 51
    0
    The Master Gun looks modern and beautiful! And what I shoot from is called a "miracle of engineering thought" .... sorry, it becomes a shame! As if the constructor had a hammer and a chisel from tools!
  31. ont65
    ont65 23 February 2019 15: 13
    0
    It is clear that nothing is clear. The story of the next PM 'killer' is more like a series of journalistic fakes about the iPhone and any other smartphone that came out later on the market. Much has been written about the 'replacement' of the PM, and (about a miracle) other models were adopted, and nevertheless, no one has presented an analogue of the PM. Gyuza, Viking, Rook ... they are all infinitely far from the PM, like the presented Boa constrictor. Probably it is worth reflecting this misunderstanding in clear formulations, maybe then there will be a gap? Do you need an analogue PM? While there are several solutions for the army version of the pistol. Perhaps the police and other security forces will need something different. The boa's advantage is that it is more typical of modern models than its predecessors and has all the necessary equipment for an army version of personal small arms. The salt of a good weapon is not in originality. In the end, the TT was nothing more than a modified version of Browning. I am for!
  32. evgic
    evgic 26 February 2019 09: 20
    0
    Pistol srach. Senseless and merciless