German anti-aircraft small-caliber anti-Soviet aircraft (part of 3)

55
In this part of the review we will talk about weaponswhich did not formally exist. Many domestic and foreign experts who wrote about the Wehrmacht machine-gun armament indicated in their works that during the Second World War there were no heavy machine guns in the armed forces of Nazi Germany. From a formal point of view, this is indeed so. Unlike many other states, for the German ground forces before the start of World War II such weapons were not ordered or developed. The niche of heavy machine guns in the Wehrmacht was occupied by very successful 20-mm machine guns suitable for firing at air and ground targets.

Nevertheless, the Germans still had large-caliber machine guns, including those used for air defense purposes. A significant number of heavy anti-aircraft machine guns caliber 13,2-mm was captured in France.



German anti-aircraft small-caliber anti-Soviet aircraft (part of 3)

13,2-mm Hotchkiss Mle 1930 machine gun on a wheeled infantry machine in anti-aircraft shooting position

Hotchkiss Мle 1930 machine gun was developed by Hotchkiss based on the experience of the First World under the 13,2 × 99 mm cartridge. The 52 g bullet left the barrel at speeds of 790 m / s, which made it possible to fight low-flying aircraft and light armored vehicles. Automatic machine gun worked on the principle of the gas outlet with a long stroke, located under the barrel of the gas piston. For reliable operation of the automation, depending on the external conditions and the degree of contamination of the weapon, the volume of powder allocated by the gas was changed using a manual regulator. The machine gun had a replaceable barrel of air cooling with a characteristic fins, which became the hallmark of the company Hotchiss. The body of the machine gun weighed about 40 kg, the mass of weapons on the universal tripod machine without cartridges was 98 kg. Rate of fire - 450 rds / min. Ammunition could include ammunition with conventional, incendiary, tracer, armor-piercing-incendiary and armor-piercing tracer bullets.

Heavy machine gun Hotchkiss Мле 1930 officially adopted by the French military in the year 1930. However, initially the pace of production was small, the French military for a long time could not decide how to use it. Although the manufacturer developed a wide range of machine tools and installations - from the simplest infantry to one machine gun, to complex mechanized twin and quad units, large-caliber machine guns were mainly exported. Infantry generals initially refused to use the 1930 Mle as an anti-aircraft gun on the pretext that its heavy bullets could cause damage to their troops if they were dropped. Only in the second half of the 30-x 13,2-mm anti-aircraft guns in significant quantities began to enter the French army. These were mostly single-barreled and paired ZPU on universal tripods.

For powering single-barrel installations, as a rule, rigid tapes-cassettes for 15 cartridges, inserted horizontally into the receiver on the receiver cover, were used. For feeding tape tapes on both sides of the tape receiver, there were folding dust covers, the tape receiver itself was attached to the receiver hingedly and could fold up and forward to clean and maintain the weapon.


Single barrel 13,2-mm LSD


In multi-barreled anti-aircraft systems, detachable box magazines for 30 cartridges were used adjacent to the receiver on top. In the version with the store supply in the design of the machine gun provided a bolt delay, leaving the bolt in the open position after the last cartridge was used up. The slide delay was turned off automatically when a full magazine was attached, while the cartridge was being sent.


Paired 13,2-mm LSD in firing position, box-shaped stores are clearly visible

Quarter installations were produced in much smaller quantities. They were installed in various vehicles, ships and fixed positions.


Quadruple 13,2-mm LSD at the factory


Apparently, the Germans managed to capture a significant amount of 13,2-mm anti-aircraft installations. In any case, the French enterprises under the control of the occupation authorities in 1942, the year was established production of cartridges according to German technology: with a steel sleeve and a bullet with a steel core. This French-German patron was labeled 1.32 cm Pzgr 821 (e). A bullet with muzzle energy 16 640 J. at a meeting angle 30 ° at a distance of 500 meters punched a slab of hardened homogeneous armor 8 mm thick. When hit along the normal, the thickness of the pierced armor increased to 14 mm. Thus, the 13,2-mm bullet could with a high degree of probability penetrate the Il-2 armored corps.



Hotchkiss Mle 1930 machine guns used in Wehrmacht divisions received the designation MG 271 (f). In the anti-aircraft units of the Luftwaffe, they were known as 1,32 cm Flak 271 (f). It is not known how many 13,2-mm units hit the Eastern Front, but there is no doubt that these weapons could be quite effective against low-altitude aerial targets.

In the mid-30s, the leadership of the Luftwaffe issued the leading German arms firms a terms of reference for the development of high-power aircraft weapons. Since rifle-caliber machine guns have practically exhausted their potential and could not ensure reliable destruction of large all-metal aircraft, the designers began to create rapid-fire large-caliber 13-15 mm machine guns and 20-30 mm aviation guns.

In the first half of 1938, the concern Rheinmetall AG began testing the MG.131 aviation machine gun chambered for 13x64 mm. Since this cartridge was the weakest in its class, under it managed to create a large-caliber machine gun with a record low weight and dimensions. The weight of the turret machine gun without ammunition was 16,6 kg, and the length of 1168 mm. For comparison: the mass of the Soviet 12,7-mm UBT aviation machine gun exceeded 21 kg with a length of 1400 mm. The German designers managed to create a very compact and light weapon, comparable in weight and size characteristics to aircraft machine guns of rifle caliber. The objective strengths of the MG.131 included the low power of the cartridge, which, in combination with the low mass of the projectile and the low initial speed, limited the range of effective fire. At the same time, the German MG.131 had a good rate of fire for its caliber - up to 950 rds / min.


13-mm gun turret MG.131


The ammunition MG.131 included ammunition with different types of bullets: fragmentation, incendiary tracer, armor-piercing tracer, armor-piercing incendiary. Bullet weight was 34-38 g. Initial speed - 710-740 m / s. A characteristic feature of the machine gun ammunition was the presence of a leading belt on the projectiles, which, according to the currently accepted classification, would rank these weapons not as machine guns, but as small-caliber artillery.


Cartridges for MG.131


Constructively and according to the principle of operation, MG.131 largely repeated the MG.15 and MG.17 machine guns. Automation 13-mm aviation machine gun worked on the principle of recoil of the short stroke of the barrel. Locking is done by turning the clutch. The barrel was cooled by air flow. In general, with proper care, the MG.131 was a completely reliable weapon and, despite its relatively low power, was popular among German aircrews and gunsmiths. Production of 13-mm aircraft machine guns continued until the second half of the 1944 year, a total of more than 60 000 units were produced. Shortly before the collapse of the Third Reich, the MG.131 warehouses in the warehouses were redone for the needs of the Wehrmacht, and 8132 machine guns were transferred to the ground forces. Large-caliber 13-mm machine guns installed on light machine tools and even bipods. This was possible due to the relatively small mass of weapons for such a caliber and acceptable recoil. However, aimed firing from a bipod was possible only with a queue length of no more than 3 shots.


Heavy machine gun MG.131 on the ground turret


Most likely, the MG.131 available in the Luftwaffe began to use field airfields to provide air defense long before surplus 13-mm machine guns were handed over to the ground forces. They were installed on the simplest swivels, and they also used regular turrets dismantled from decommissioned bombers. Although MG.131 was often criticized for its insufficient power for such a caliber, 13-mm armor-piercing tracer and armor-piercing incendiary bullets at a distance of 300 m confidently pierced the side 6 mm armor of the Il-2 attack aircraft.

In 1937, Škoda began the production of the 15-mm ZB-60 machine gun. This weapon was originally designed by the Ministry of Defense of Czechoslovakia as an anti-tank, but after being mounted on a universal wheeled-tripod machine, it was possible to fire at air targets. Automatic large-caliber machine gun worked on the principle of use of the removal of the powder gases. The design and operation of the automation was in many respects identical to the machine tool 7,92-mm machine gun ZB-53. The body weight of the 15-mm machine gun without a machine and ammunition was 59 kg.


15-mm machine gun ZB-60 on the universal tripod-wheel machine


Thanks to the use of powerful ammunition 15 × 104 mm with muzzle energy 33 000 J, the 1400 g bullet in the 75 mm barrel was accelerated to the speed 880 m / s. At a distance of 500 m at a meeting at a right angle, a bullet could penetrate 16 mm armor, which is a fairly high rate even now. To power the machine gun used a box with a tape on 40 cartridges, the rate of fire 430 rds / min. The ammunition consisted of cartridges with armor-piercing and tracer bullets. The pyrotechnic composition of the tracer bullet burned at a distance of up to 2000 m. Due to strong recoil, firing bursts longer than 2-3 with airborne shots was ineffective, which was largely determined by the unsuccessful design of the machine with an excessively high anti-aircraft rack.


15-mm machine gun ZB-60 in position for anti-aircraft shooting


At the end of 30, several hundred ZB-60 machine guns were purchased: Great Britain, Yugoslavia and Greece. In 1938, the British decided to organize the licensed production of ZB-60 under the name Besa Mk.1. In Czechoslovakia itself, the decision on the mass production of 15-mm machine guns after repeated tests and modifications was made only in August of the 1938 year. However, before the German occupation, only a small number of large-caliber machine guns could be produced for their own needs. Several dozen ZB-60 were assembled at the Hermann-Göring-Werke company (as the Germans began to call themselves Škoda plants) under German management. Machine guns used parts of the SS, Luftwaffe anti-aircraft gunners and Kringsmarine. In German documents, this weapon was designated MG.38 (t). The refusal of mass production of 15-mm machine guns was due to their high cost and the desire to free production facilities for weapons developed by German designers. In addition, as already mentioned, the ZB-60 had a not very successful machine, which had a low stability when conducting intensive anti-aircraft fire.



Due to the poor choice of the range of available Czech bullets and their relatively low armor penetration, the Germans used the same bullets as for the MG.15 / 151 aircraft machine guns to equip 15-mm cartridges. This approach also made it possible, thanks to partial unification, to reduce costs in the production of ammunition. Since these German 15-mm bullets had a leading belt, they were structurally shells. German specialists for placing the projectile in the chamber of the machine gun shortened the Czech cartridge case to the width of this belt (3 mm), as a result, the length of the cartridge case of the converted ammunition was 101 mm.



Although a little ZB-60 machine guns were produced during the years of the German occupation of Czechoslovakia, a significant number of photographs of German soldiers posing with these weapons remained. Apparently, the Hitlerites also had British 15-mm machine guns Vesa Mk.1, captured after the emergency evacuation of British troops from Dunkirk, as well as trophy Yugoslav and Greek 15-mm machine guns.

As for the already-mentioned 15-mm MG.151 / 15 aviation machine gun, it was also used to create an LSD. History the use of this weapon as part of anti-aircraft machine-gun systems is very interesting. Aviation 15-mm machine gun design was started by the specialists of Mauser-Werke AG in 1936 year, when it became clear that 7,92-mm aviation machine guns are not able to guarantee the destruction of new all-metal aircraft.

The action of the automatic 15-mm aviation machine gun was based on the use of recoil of the rolling barrel, which is firmly linked to the bolt during the shot. In this case, when fired back rolls the barrel with the shutter. This scheme ensures that the liner is fully pressed against the walls of the chamber until the projectile is released from the barrel. This makes it possible to increase the pressure in the barrel and provides a higher initial speed compared with a free-gate weapon. The MG 151 / 15 uses recoil with a short barrel stroke that is smaller than the shutter stroke. Locking the barrel by turning the battle larvae. Sliding type feed mechanism.


Cartridge 15x96 mm with fragmentation-tracer bullet


Simultaneously with the creation of weapons for it, the development of ammunition was carried out: with fragmentation, incendiary tracer, armor-piercing tracer and sub-caliber armor-piercing with a carbide (tungsten carbide) core bullets. The bullets adopted for the 15x95 mm shot were, in fact, projectiles, since they had a leading belt characteristic of artillery shells.


Tape with 15-mm cartridges 15x96 mm with bullets of various types


The armor piercing tracer with 72 g mass had an initial speed of 850 m / s. At a distance of 300 m, she normalized confidently pierced 20 mm medium armor. Sub-caliber bullet with a hard-alloy core possessed even greater armor penetration. Leaving the barrel at a speed of 1030 m / s, a bullet weighing 52 g at the same distance could penetrate 40 mm armor. However, in view of the acute shortage of tungsten, cartridges with sub-caliber bullets for firing at air targets were purposefully not used.

The serial production of the MG 151 / 15 large-caliber machine gun began in the 1940 year. Thanks to the use of successful design solutions, it had characteristics that were high for its time, which, along with well-developed 15-mm cartridges, ensured its confident superiority over other samples of German aircraft armament in initial projectile speed and armor-piercing action. With a machine gun body weight of about 43 kg, it had a total length of 1916 mm. Rate of fire - up to 750 rds / min.

However, with sufficiently high rates of fire rate and armor penetration, as well as good accuracy, the 15-mm machine gun in the Luftwaffe was not used for long. This was due to the insufficient destructive effect of its explosive ammunition on the heavy bombers' power structures. On the Soviet-German front, the BF-109F-2 fighters, armed with MG 151 / 15, successfully hit all types of Soviet single-engine combat aircraft, including armored IL-2, as well as twin-engine Pe-2, at actual air combat distances. However, attempts to intercept a four-engined British bombers demonstrated the lack of effectiveness of the 15-mm machine gun. In this regard, in 1941, the company Mauser-Werke AG based on the MG 151 / 15 machine gun created the 20-mm MG 151 / 20 cannon, which was widely used as the main armament of fighters of various modifications, and the 15-mm aeronautical machine guns were used to create anti-aircraft installations.


Anti-aircraft gun using 15-mm MG 151 / 15 machine gun


Initially, MG 151 / 15 was used to create a single installation. However, this option is not widespread. The most popular was the built-in ZPU on the Flalaf.SL151.D machine, installed on the 1510 / V pedestals. Tumbling anti-aircraft systems were located both in stationary positions and on towed trailers.



At the same time, the installation possessed a solid ammunition, in the boxes fixed parallel to the cabinet, a total of at least 300 cartridges were placed. All three trunks had a general descent. The total rate of the three-barreled installation reached 2250 rds / min, that is, a second salvo of three 15-mm machine guns was 0,65 kg.

The installation, built with the use of aircraft machine guns little adapted for use on the ground, required careful maintenance and often gave up with heavy dusting. Also, for aiming three trunks at the target, the shooter needed to make considerable physical efforts, which adversely affected the accuracy of firing at rapidly moving targets. Nevertheless, 15-mm anti-aircraft machine guns were quite a formidable weapon. Due to the high initial velocity of the bullet, the range of aimed fire was 2000 m, and the armor penetration allowed to overcome with confidence any aviation armor that existed at that time. Thus, during special tests of single-seat IL-2 armor conducted at plant 125 in summer 1942 of the year when shelling from a German heavy machine gun MG-151 / 15, it was found that side armored plates 6 mm thick do not provide protection against 15 armor-piercing mm. from distances less than 400 m at an angle to the longitudinal axis of the aircraft over 20 °.

With regard to foreign models, the most common anti-aircraft heavy machine gun used by the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front was the Soviet 12,7-mm DShK.



Although during the Great Patriotic War there was an acute shortage of large-caliber machine guns in the Red Army, and by May 1945 only about 9000 units had been fired, the enemy managed to capture some number of serviceable DShKs. The Germans very quickly appreciated the Soviet heavy machine gun and adopted it, giving it the designation MG.286 (r). This weapon was used by the SS, Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe airfield units.



The DShK machine gun on the universal wheel-tripod machine Kolesnikov with a mass of about 158 kg had the opportunity to conduct effective fire at air targets at a distance of up to 1500 m. The rate of fire was 550-600 rds / min. At a distance of 100 m, an armor-piercing incendiary bullet with a steel core weighing 48,3 g, leaving the barrel at a speed of 840 m / s, penetrates steel armor of high hardness 15 mm thick. High armor penetration in combination with a satisfactory combat rate of fire and reach in range and height made captured 12,7-mm machine guns very dangerous for our attack aircraft. For a complex of service and operational and combat characteristics captured DShK were the most advanced large-caliber machine guns used by the German army on the Soviet-German front.

Продолжение следует ...

Based on:
https://borianm.livejournal.com/760865.html
http://wwii.space/zenitnyie-orudiya-frantsiya/
http://sudwall.superforum.fr/t2458-mitrailleuse-aa-de-132-mm
http://alternathistory.com/neletayushhie-frantsuzskie-aviapushki-gochkiss-i-ko/
https://alternathistory.livejournal.com/367014.html
https://mensby.com/technology/guns/5633-soviet-heavy-machine-gun-dsk
55 comments
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  1. +1
    22 December 2018 09: 41
    It is astounding that the Germans used any trophy, so we will use the tank, a bad one, and we found our niche for it. The gun was captured, it’ll do. If it doesn’t work, then we’ll redo it, for example, 88 mm barrels were drilled at anti-aircraft guns. Small arms, of course. We captured the tanks, like the stars painted, but where did they fight? And it’s not prestigious to write about it. It’s interesting, by the way, about machine guns, why the chances for the gunner’s guns were installed anti-tank. If he confidently sewed the roof of the tower and MTO from standard weapons.
    1. 0
      22 December 2018 09: 59
      Quote: Free Wind
      Interestingly, by the way, about machine guns, why did Hans set up anti-tank guns on a lapter; If he confidently sewed the roof of the tower and MTO from standard weapons.
      1. +1
        22 December 2018 10: 05
        To break through from other projections. T-34 different modifications became more.
      2. +7
        22 December 2018 13: 35
        Quote: Free Wind
        Interestingly, by the way, about machine guns, why did Hans set up anti-tank guns on a lapter; If he confidently sewed the roof of the tower and MTO from standard weapons.

        Pardon I ask ... the Internet fell off and did not manage to finish request In the offensive weapons of the first Ju 87 were machine guns MG.17 rifle caliber, they physically could not penetrate even the armor of light tanks. Beginning with the Ju 87D modification, they began installing 20-mm MG 151 / 20 guns. But they did not have pronounced anti-tank capabilities. As for Ju 87G with 37-mm guns, this option is quite controversial.
        1. +4
          22 December 2018 16: 31
          hi Greetings. Thank.
          Quote: Bongo
          ... The offensive weapons of the first Ju 87 were machine guns MG.17 rifle caliber.

          Probably to take more bomb load for total destruction of targets.

          ... As for the Ju 87G with 37 mm guns, this option is quite controversial.

          ... 20 mm MG 151/20 guns. But they did not possess pronounced anti-tank capabilities.

          recourse .... In the video below, it is not clear what caliber. 20 or 30 hi
          1. +2
            23 December 2018 07: 09
            Greetings, Comrade Sanchez! Thanks for the videos! drinks
            Quote: san4es
            Probably to take more bomb load for total destruction of targets.
            This is not the only point, in the later modifications of the "thing" the emphasis was on the attack. For which the plane was equipped with more powerful engines, armor and guns.
            Quote: san4es
            In the video below, it is unclear what caliber. 20 or 30


            This is 20-mm. hi
            1. +2
              23 December 2018 10: 14
              hi ... There would be a theme - there is a film drinks
        2. +2
          24 December 2018 09: 28
          The experience of using guns on tanks with large caliber on the IL2 and Yak9T was also not very successful ..... 23mm was the most practical caliber.
    2. +7
      22 December 2018 12: 20
      Quote: Free Wind
      It is astounding that the Germans used any trophy

      The Germans did not prepare for a protracted war. And production facilities have not been militarized for a long time. Therefore, they lacked weapons all the way. Rowing for everything.
    3. +4
      22 December 2018 19: 10
      About our use of captured German PZ III captured in Kharkov. I read, it seems, from Svirin that ZiS-3 was put on the German chassis, such self-propelled guns were riveted by fifteen hundred. Naturally, there is no maintainability of captured weapons, so nothing was left of them by the 1945 year.
    4. +4
      23 December 2018 17: 56
      We captured the tanks, like the stars painted, but where did they fight?
      Well, for example, as part of the SS Panzergrenadier Division "Das Reich" near Prokhorovka, 8 T34-76 participated. By the way - not one died ...
      1. +2
        24 December 2018 01: 29
        The Germans came up with a funny nickname for the T-34. In their unofficial jargon, it was called "Mickey Mouse", since when the commander and gunner's hatches were raised, the T-34 tower in front resembled the face of a cartoon character with two large semicircular ears. Judging by how much they added to the captured T-34s (boxes and lights outside, optics and equipment inside), they really liked this tank. Just like our tankers liked the captured Panther.
        1. +2
          24 December 2018 02: 05
          Our mostly liked the Panther’s 7,5 cm KwK 42 cannon. Everything else caused a lot of complaints: unreliable running gear, poor-quality armor, and insanely complicated maintenance. No wonder the Germans themselves very often used Panthers as bunkers.
  2. -1
    22 December 2018 09: 42
    And now 404fashists use and love DShK
    1. +14
      22 December 2018 09: 50
      Quote: Zaurbek
      And now 404fashists use and love DShK

      You know, in the past, you wrote sane posts, what does the German anti-aircraft guns have to do with 404? I categorically do not like it when such rhetoric begins in the comments to my publications. If you have nothing to say, it is better to remain silent than to throw at the fan.
      1. 0
        22 December 2018 10: 03
        Glad to read my comments. I meant the massive use of DShK in Ukraine. In the absence of NSV.
        1. +6
          22 December 2018 13: 38
          Quote: Zaurbek
          Glad to read my comments. I meant the massive use of DShK in Ukraine. In the absence of NSV.

          DShK was used in most military conflicts that occurred after the Second World War. I would venture to suggest that even cannibals in Africa shot from him, but this does not detract from its merits. As for the unfortunate events in the South-East of Ukraine, these weapons were actively used by all parties to the conflict.
    2. +2
      22 December 2018 11: 17
      DShK in general is such a charmingly attractive machine gun that users who do not like it simply do not exist in nature.
      And at all literally times.
      1. -1
        22 December 2018 12: 17
        Quote: Carpenter 2329
        DShK in general is such a charmingly attractive machine gun that users who do not like it simply do not exist in nature.

        Why so?
        It is necessary to confuse DShK and DShKM. DShKM still wherever it went. Although the cartridge, originally chosen by Degtyarev, is still bad, too powerful for such a weapon. The Germans DShK, as they could, and combed. Therefore, it turned out bearable.
        And DShK was not very.
        1. +1
          22 December 2018 12: 49
          Bad Right like that - bad. Worthless cartridge, want to say?
          Well, it's only your personal opinion ...
          And how is the DShKM so radically different from the DShK, if it is "wherever it went"?
          1. 0
            22 December 2018 13: 02
            Quote: Carpenter 2329
            Worthless cartridge, want to say?

            Rather, very unfortunate.
            Quote: Carpenter 2329
            And how is the DShKM so radically different from the DShK, if it is "wherever it went"?

            On the Internet a bunch of articles on this subject.
        2. +3
          23 December 2018 09: 19
          Quote: rfv18
          Although the cartridge originally chosen by Degtyarev is still bad, too powerful for such a weapon

          I wonder if the Americans know about the "overly powerful cartridge"? Their 12,7x99 is practically equal in power to our 12,7x108, and taking into account the quality of the wartime gunpowder, I think it actually surpassed it. At the same time, the Yankees love their M2 very much and still shove it everywhere, and he will be older than DShK.
          1. -1
            23 December 2018 12: 44
            Quote: Narak-zempo
            Their 12,7 x 99 is almost equal in power to our 12,7 x 108

            No, its power is less.
            Quote: Narak-zempo
            and taking into account the quality of wartime gunpowder, I think it really surpassed it.

            Yes, during the war, gunpowder was not a reference. But then I suggest you think about the work of automation. Gunpowder is worse, n / s is less than a bullet, what happens with automation?
            1. 0
              23 December 2018 12: 59
              Quote: rfv18
              No, its power is less

              Proof?
              Wiki gives 16240 J for the B-32 and 18625 J for the BS-41.
              At 12,7x99, according to the same data, muzzle energy with different bullets from 18050 to 20195 J.
              1. -1
                23 December 2018 13: 24
                1. Cartridges of the same size can change their power over time. The chemical industry does not stand still.
                2. Read the history of the creation of 12,7x108 mm. From the very beginning, it was SPECIALLY made more powerful than 12,7x99 mm (at that time). So in the USSR at the time of the creation of 12,7x108 mm they understood the concept of "cool".
                And the fact that, as a result, the combat rate of fire of the DShK was less than the norm for the HMG (short-range machine gun), so who knows?
                1. 0
                  23 December 2018 13: 30
                  Where to read something? Give a link.
                  1. -1
                    23 December 2018 13: 41
                    Quote: Narak-zempo
                    Where to read something? Give a link.

                    Damn, what, little has been written about this?
                    Where did I get a link to such "valuable books"? I read them in paper form.
                    PS.
                    The maximum allowable DE for HMG is 16 kJ. A DShK has a typical 17 kJ. A little more than normal. And this was a serious problem at first.
                    1. 0
                      23 December 2018 13: 53
                      So far, Google has failed.
                      There is infa that the first prototypes of heavy machine guns in the USSR were developed under the English 12,7 × 81 Vickers, it is really relatively low-power. Apparently, they wanted to surpass him.
                      1. +1
                        23 December 2018 13: 58
                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        under the English 12,7 × 81 Vickers, he is really relatively low-power. Apparently, they wanted to surpass him.

                        The volume of the sleeve is 12,7x99 mm 18,97 cubic meters. cm.
                        The volume of the sleeve is 12,7x108 mm 22,72 cubic meters. cm.
                        What does this mean?
                      2. +1
                        23 December 2018 14: 16
                        Quote: rfv18
                        The volume of the sleeve is 12,7x99 mm 18,97 cubic meters. cm.
                        The volume of the sleeve is 12,7x108 mm 22,72 cubic meters. cm.
                        What does this mean?

                        Nothing, because gunpowder was different. We have pyroxylin, in the allies - more powerful nitroglycerin.
                      3. +3
                        23 December 2018 14: 31
                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        Nothing, because gunpowder was different. We have pyroxylin, in the allies - more powerful nitroglycerin.

                        And that too.
                        Found in his notes.
                        DE pre-war HMG Browning 15,6 kJ.
                        DE post-war HMG Browning 17,1 kJ (NATO cartridge).
                      4. 0
                        23 December 2018 15: 47
                        Quote: rfv18
                        The maximum allowable DE for HMG is 16 kJ. A DShK has a typical 17 kJ. A little more than normal. And this was a serious problem at first.

                        What determines this "maximum energy"?
                        Have such problems experienced Berezin air strikes under the same cartridge, with a much higher rate of fire?
                        What about the NSV and Kord? What changed? The same M2, which now works with modern powerful cartridges.
                        Finally, it mentioned "Hotchkiss" with 16640 J - exactly like the DShK with the B-32. How did the French do?
                      5. 0
                        23 December 2018 16: 17
                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        What determines this "maximum energy"?

                        It is more correct to ask what she defines. It determines the combat rate of fire of a weapon.
                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        Have similar problems experienced Berezin air raids

                        Air guns have different cooling. In principle, another.
                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        The same M2, which now works with modern powerful cartridges.

                        Improved barrel cooling. DShKM this also applies.
                        In DShK, the rate of fire was reduced. So formally it’s not exactly a machine gun. This is very similar to the DP-27.
                        In general, the release of products that look similar to real ones, but only in appearance, this is the Soviet method.
                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        How was the French doing?

                        Heard, on strike.
              2. 0
                23 December 2018 13: 53
                Quote: Narak-zempo
                At 12,7x99, according to the same data, muzzle energy with different bullets from 18050 to 20195 J

                This is you writing the cartridge data 12.7 × 99mm NATO. Before 2MV, there were none.
                1. 0
                  23 December 2018 14: 03
                  Quote: rfv18
                  This is you writing the cartridge data 12.7 × 99mm NATO. Before 2MV, there were none.

                  As I understand it, it was 12,7x99 Browning that was adopted as a NATO standard.
                  And then, according to our data, it is also modern. Or, unlike the "American", he has not changed since the war?
                  In short, without background information on the cartridges of those years, the discussion is meaningless.
                  1. 0
                    23 December 2018 14: 16
                    Quote: Narak-zempo
                    As I understand it, it was 12,7x99 Browning that was adopted as a NATO standard.

                    Once again, I recall the cartridges of the 30s. And about later cartridges.
                    For example, now not a 9 × 19mm Luger cartridge is used, as everyone calls it, but 9 × 19mm Luger + P (this is its full official name). This is a post-war cartridge.
                    For example.
                    The DE Walter P38 on the pre-war 9 × 19mm Luger cartridge was 507 J. And the modern Walter DE on the modern 9 × 19mm Luger cartridge + P 550 J. You will not see any difference, only in the manuals. And shoot the 9 × 19mm Luger + P cartridge from the old Walter P38 is prohibited.
                    1. 0
                      23 December 2018 14: 23
                      Quote: rfv18
                      Quote: Narak-zempo
                      As I understand it, it was 12,7x99 Browning that was adopted as a NATO standard.

                      Once again, I recall the cartridges of the 30s. And about later cartridges.
                      For example, now not a 9 × 19mm Luger cartridge is used, as everyone calls it, but 9 × 19mm Luger + P (this is its full official name). This is a post-war cartridge.
                      For example.
                      The DE Walter P38 on the pre-war 9 × 19mm Luger cartridge was 507 J. And the modern Walter DE on the modern 9 × 19mm Luger cartridge + P 550 J. You will not see any difference, only in the manuals. And shoot the 9 × 19mm Luger + P cartridge from the old Walter P38 is prohibited.

                      Therefore, I ask you to provide data on cartridges of the 30s, on the basis of which you claim that ours was more powerful.
                      1. 0
                        23 December 2018 14: 33
                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        Therefore, I ask you to provide data on cartridges of the 30s, on the basis of which you claim that ours was more powerful.

                        See above.
                      2. 0
                        23 December 2018 14: 48
                        Quote: Narak-zempo
                        cartridges of the 30s

                        N / s 2700 feet per second, 710 gran.
  3. +3
    22 December 2018 12: 44
    1. During WW2, the Germans developed another interesting "device" -MG213C. Just like the MG151, this was a bicaliber-20/30 mm system. A special feature of the MG213C is the fact that it is the world's first automatic revolving cannon. This gun even managed to pass tests, but the Germans did not have time to launch it into production. It would have been possible to ignore this fact, if on the basis of this innovative German cannon, the 20-mm American М.39 (1954 was supplied to 24 other countries of the world ...) and the English, French 30-mm guns "Aden "," Defa "(" Defa "was supplied to 25 countries of the world).
    MG213C
    2.The USSR also did not stand aside from the use of German experience and German specialists ... so, in 1945-47 (49). The German company "Ikaria Werke" developed, if not by order, then with the permission of the USSR, several small-caliber systems. For example, of interest is the 13-mm STL 131-V1-3 light machine gun (!), Created on the basis of MG131 ...

    When the 12,7-mm "Kord" appeared, which can also be used as a light machine gun, it was announced in some media as a Russian achievement, "unparalleled in the world." But, as you can see, "the new is the well forgotten old ...".
    .Other systems include the 15-mm machine-gun mount STL-151 / 12, created on the basis of the MG-151
  4. 0
    22 December 2018 13: 05
    And how was the ring trimmed with leatherette used? There it was necessary to shove a hand to be shoulder support when shooting? In the photo of the three-barrel memory on the wheeled carriage at the end of the article this ring is clearly visible.
    1. +2
      22 December 2018 13: 44
      Quote: Ural-4320
      And how was the ring trimmed with leatherette used? There it was necessary to shove a hand to be shoulder support when shooting? In the photo of the three-barrel memory on the wheeled carriage at the end of the article this ring is clearly visible.


      hi
  5. +5
    22 December 2018 14: 42
    "A bullet with a muzzle energy of 16 640 J. at an encounter angle of 30 ° at a distance of 500 meters pierced a plate of hardened homogeneous armor with a thickness of 8 mm. When hit by normal, the thickness of the pierced armor increased to 14 mm."
    The French themselves had a higher opinion about their brainchild and gave "Armour penetration 18mm / 30 ° at 500 meters".
    Let me add some interesting illustrations.

    Twin setup Twin 13.2 mm Hotchkiss MG. from the Polish destroyer Grif. Photo by Michal Kopacz.
    1. +5
      22 December 2018 14: 46

      Quad Quad Project 13,2 mm Hotchkiss MG Photo by John Schaefer.
      1. +2
        22 December 2018 16: 59
        By the way, earlier it "seemed" to me that the 13,2-mm ZPU were built-in ... even a snapshot of such an installation was recalled! But when I decided to double-check the "memories", I could not find confirmation. Really confused with German or Soviet built ZPU? request
    2. +2
      22 December 2018 14: 53
      Quote: Decimam
      Armor penetration 18mm / 30 ° at 500 meters "

      Do you believe it? DShK with approximately the same muzzle energy, with 100 m punched 16 mm armor. Although it is not known on what sheet the French shot. Maybe it was dural?
      1. +5
        22 December 2018 15: 11
        You know, the assessment of armor penetration in different countries is carried out by quite different methods. There are dozens or more of calculation formulas - Siacci, Krupp, Le Havre, Thompson, Davis, Kirilov, etc., etc., therefore, by the 1930s, decent discrepancies had accumulated in different countries on this issue. You can write an article.
        1. +4
          22 December 2018 15: 37
          Quote: Decimam
          You know, the assessment of armor in different countries is carried out by quite different methods.

          Victor, I know of course. It always amused me. In addition, in addition to different methods of calculation, a different percentage of penetration was taken into account.
          Quote: Decimam
          You can write an article.

          Can... Yes But how many will read it?
          1. +2
            24 December 2018 05: 45
            I would love to read, like all your articles.
        2. +6
          22 December 2018 16: 15
          Waiting for an article!
      2. +2
        23 December 2018 10: 52
        Quote: Bongo
        Do you believe it? DShK with approximately the same muzzle energy, with 100 m punched 16 mm armor. Although it is not known on what sheet the French shot. Maybe it was dural?

        Different assessment methods.
        And then, the ability of a bullet to penetrate armor also depends on the bullet itself - how much the core is capable of not collapsing upon impact. I know that we had big problems with armor-piercing shells in this regard - the blank was cracking. I even had to make it mushroom-shaped - with a "localizer".
        And there may be problems with the stability of the bullet in flight. I watched Ulanov's lecture on the development of PTR in the USSR - there were massive cases of the coming of bullets flat.
      3. 0
        23 December 2018 12: 29
        If you believe the report "Study of the armor protection of German tanks in 1942" the penetration of the DShK is still slightly higher than 20mm-0gr-50-100m, and 15mm-0gr-600-700m), however, this is more of the rear strength limit, and not through penetration)
    3. +2
      23 December 2018 10: 43
      A beautiful machine gun, and the installations looked very modern for that time, it is a pity that the store food made it impractical.
  6. +1
    22 December 2018 16: 11
    Interesting article.
  7. +2
    22 December 2018 16: 21
    Sergei hi Thank you for the next informative article in the cycle. We fill the knowledge gap drinks regarding the use of captured Soviet weapons by parts of the Wehrmacht, somewhere on the Internet, it was possible to see a photo of ShKAS used as an anti-aircraft gun. The Germans got a lot of trophies in the first year of the war, it’s not surprising their use, it would be a sin to refuse such a freebie in their place request ours also did not lag behind them, after Stalingrad we fought already 2 regiments equipped with 88mm anti-aircraft guns. good The article is another fat plus. bully