"Standard" battleships of the USA, Germany and England. German Bayern

163
Having studied in the previous article the design features of battleships of the Rivend type, we turn to the offspring of the “gloomy Teutonic genius”, the heights of the German battleship-building of the First World War era, called “Bayern” and “Baden”.

History These ships began in the autumn-winter months of 1910, when the question of increasing the caliber of the guns of the “capital” Kaiserlichmarine ships was again raised on the agenda. But first - a little backstory.



As is known, the first German Dreadnoughts of the Nassau type received 280-mm guns, which at that time were the standard main caliber of heavy German ships: the last two battleships of the Kaiserlmarine battleships, Braunschweig and Deutschland, each had four 280-mm guns with a length 40 barrel gauges. Of course, the Nassau-type battleships got an improved and more powerful 45-caliber artillery system, but still it was not considered sufficient for the future battleships. And now, the next four German dreadnoughts, ships of the Helgoland type, received for service a much more powerful 305-mm / 50 Krupp gun, which became one of the best in the world (and, possibly, the best) artillery system of this caliber, a real artillery piece art, which left behind the British 305-mm / 45 and 305-mm / 50 tools. Of course, they are not looking for good from the good, so the next series, the Kaiser-type battleships, the Germans armed the same 305-mm / 50 artillery system.

And then 1909 struck the year marked by the laying of the first Super Dreadnought out in the world - the British Orion, and it became clear that the Lady of the Seas would then build ships with 343-mm artillery. Oddly enough, the news of this did not cause any rush in Germany: despite the fact that their next series of battleships laid in 1911 g (type "Koenig"), was intended to fight the British superdownnouet, they kept the same 305 -mm / 50 guns that stood on the Kaisers. And the Koenigs themselves were structurally very similar to the battleships of the previous series, excluding the location of the main artillery.


Battleship "Koenig"


The logic of the Germans was quite clear: yes, the English 343-mm guns are more powerful, but the German 305-mm is easier, and this made it possible to create a lighter, or better protected tower (more precisely, both) at the same time as a smaller diameter barbet. , which again made it possible to improve its protection or save weight, the same was true of feed mechanisms, ammunition ... In general, the Germans felt that due to the well-known relief of the main caliber, they can create much better protected ships than the British build, and best armor a better flatness in the projectile flight path, a higher rate of fire will provide “Koenigs” with an advantage in combat with the 343-mm super-dreadnoughts, despite the fact that the latter have more powerful guns. As far as the German designers and admirals were right in their arguments? We will answer this question some other time when we take up a detailed analysis of the English Orions and Iron Dyukov and the German Kaisers and Koenigovs, but this is beyond the scope of our today's article. Now it is important for us to know that the Germans considered this way, and not whether their views were fair.

So, when designing the Koenig, the Germans believed that ten 305-mm / 50 guns fully meet the tasks of the modern battleship. But soon the United States and Japan followed the example of the British, switched to even larger 356-mm guns, and it became clear that the armament of the battleships Fleet high seas need to be strengthened. But how? The German Arms Department of the Imperial Ministry of the Sea considered two options. One of them was to increase the number of 305 mm / 50 guns to 13-15 units. to a battleship - obviously, this entailed a transition from two-gun tower installations to three-gun ones, or even more. The second option was to preserve the two-gun turrets while increasing the caliber of the guns to 340 mm. After making the necessary calculations, in November 1910, German experts came to the conclusion that 340-mm guns in two-gun towers are preferred. However, the calculation results did not at all prompted the Germans to immediately create a 340-mm artillery system. In essence, the result of the calculations of the weapons department was the realization of the need for more powerful naval artillery than the existing 305 mm, but a promising caliber for future battleships was yet to be determined. Therefore, the project of the 340-mm two-gun tower, which was developed on the initiative and presented in July 1911 by the Krupp concern, aroused only polite interest from the Ministry of the Sea.

The process of determining the optimal caliber of promising battleships in Germany was not fast and very thorough. The Secretary of State (Maritime Minister) A. von Tirpitz asked a very reasonable question: more recently, the 280-305-mm cannons suited everyone, now the 343-356-mm artillery systems are coming into service with the newest ships, but where is the finish in this caliber race? ? There was no doubt that he would be somewhere: in the end, there would be both technical and economic restrictions. Von Tirpitz saw that the size and power of the dreadnoughts were growing from year to year, but he was well aware that this growth was finite: sooner or later, the battleships would reach their limit for the existing technological level of size, which would no longer exceed will not compensate for the rapid increase in the cost of ships.

In other words, von Tirpitz assumed that sooner or later the same would happen with dreadnoughts as with squadron battleships, and that their size and firepower would stabilize at some level. But in 1911, obviously, this has not yet happened, but the one who sets the limits of the battleships before the others, will be able to start building them earlier, and thus will benefit while the other countries create weaker ships.

Von Tirpitz ordered some calculations, both technical and tactical, and was soon convinced that the maximum caliber of guns was stabilizing somewhere around 16 inches (400-406 mm). In this, his assumptions were confirmed by consultants from Krupp, who claimed that the British, adhering to the old methods of manufacturing artillery systems (wire trunks), would not be able to create heavier sea guns.

It would seem that here it is - the solution of the problem, everything is clear, and we must build battleships with sixteen-inch artillery, but von Tirpitz hesitated. The fact is that he had to take into account both internal and external political factors, and here everything was difficult.

There was no information that any countries were designing 15-16 guns in inches, and the battleships for 16-inch guns promised to become huge and expensive. Will the Reichstag accept such an increase in value, given that no one in the world is building such battleships yet? Does the creation of a “16-inch” ships by Germany provoke another round of the naval arms race? But, on the other hand, if only to "pull up" for other powers in the artillery caliber, will Germany lag behind at sea? Von Tirpitz had no answers to these questions, and he 4 August 1911 ordered three departments of the Maritime Ministry: shipbuilding, general and arms departments to carry out comparative studies of the transfer of the main ships of the fleet to 350-mm, 380-mm and 400-mm guns .

And so, September 1 held an extended meeting on the choice of the caliber of future guns. An interesting fact is that the 380-mm guns were thrown off immediately, but a heated debate ensued about the other two. Ten 350-mm guns or eight 400-mm? Interestingly, the gunners and the head of the armaments department, Rear Admiral G. Gerdes, spoke in favor of the 10 * 350-mm guns, which should have been placed on the battleship in five two-gun towers, similar to "Kenigo". Their arguments boiled down to the fact that the 400-mm gun, of course, better penetrates the armor, but not so much as to have an overwhelming advantage over the 350-mm guns, their rate of fire is comparable, and the 10 trunks can "bring in the enemy" more projectiles than the 8 . Strangely enough, they were opposed by shipbuilders - fleet chief designer G. Buerkner stated that he was a staunch supporter of a four-towed ship, whose instruments were grouped in the bow and stern, leaving the middle part of the hull unoccupied by cars, boilers, boats and mine-artillery. He stated that the fifth tower “always interferes”, and that, if possible, it should be disposed of. In addition, he noted that 10 * 350-mm guns will have more weight than 8 * 400-mm, and that the savings can be up to 700 tons.

Seeing that the discussion had reached a dead end, A. von Tirpitz proposed a compromise solution - to use 10 * 350-mm guns, placing them in the extremities in two-and three-gun turrets so that 1-th and 4-th towers were three-gun, and 2 th and 3-I - two-gun, that is, like the Americans later installed 10 * 356-mm guns on the battleships "Oklahoma" and "Nevada", laid down about a year later described events. But this compromise did not satisfy anyone, because the rejection of three-gun towers in the Imperial Maritime Ministry bordered on a phobia. We will list the main arguments against such towers below.

1. The large diameter of the barbets made it necessary to cut “huge holes” in the decks of the ship - according to the German shipbuilders, this violated the optimal distribution of longitudinal structural connections of the hull and adversely affected its strength. I must say, the argument is completely far-fetched - and then, and later, many ships with three-gun turrets were built, whose hull strength was quite satisfactory.

2. Reducing the rate of ammunition to the average gun. In fact, if such a problem existed, it could, if not be solved at all, then be reduced to a completely insignificant value.

3. The increase in torque of the turntable of the turret when fired, since the axes of the extreme guns defended from the center of the installation further than in the two-gun turret. It must be said that, although this objection is absolutely valid, it, with a reasonable construction of the towers, did not lead to any complications.

4. Great loss of firepower in the development of a three-gun turret in battle. Very controversial argument. Yes, of course, three guns and a half times more than two, but the fact is that the chances of getting into one of the five towers are noticeably more than one of the four.

At the same time, the specialists of the Naval Ministry fully realized that the three-gun turrets also have advantages - a more compact placement of artillery, which makes it possible to reduce the length of the citadel and save weight on it, and in addition, the possibility of providing better artillery fire angles. But still, despite the above, and the fact that the German naval gunners and engineers knew about the introduction of three-gun towers in the fleets of Russia, Italy and Austria-Hungary, their prejudice against such towers remained undefeated.

Although…

The author of this article has some, not even a guess, but rather a direction that requires further research. As you know, Austria-Hungary managed to build a four of very interesting and powerful battleships of the Viribus Unitis, combining in a relatively small displacement acceptable speed, very strong artillery weapons and impressive booking. However, very little is known about the battleships themselves (as, indeed, about the vast majority of the Austro-Hungarian ships), the bibliography about them is very, very scarce. If you look at the table TTX, it turns out that the Habsburg empire succeeded almost the best 305-mm dreadnoughts in the world (at the time of the bookmark, of course). But the history of naval construction shows that usually such “super ships” suffer from many unobvious shortcomings, and their table advantages remain only on paper.

At the same time, the respected S. Vinogradov in his monograph “Superdreadnoughts of the Second Reich“ Bayern ”and“ Baden ”. The main caliber of Admiral Tirpitz notes that at the time of the 1 discussion on September 1911, the Germans already had data on Viribus Units and had the opportunity to familiarize themselves with the design of their three-gun installations. Apparently - at the level of the drawings, since the battleships of the specified series were commissioned, but perhaps in 1911 g the towers themselves were already ready in metal.

"Standard" battleships of the USA, Germany and England. German Bayern

Three-gun turret of Viribus Unitis type battleships


Of course, the Germans had a strong prejudice against the three-gun towers, and this is not questioned. But it is very difficult to imagine that the German engineers deliberately perverted their conclusion about the towers of the Austrian ships to please this point of view. It is much easier to assume that the design of the Austro-Hungarian dreadnoughts and their towers really possessed all the above disadvantages and the Germans, having studied them properly, found a “brilliant” confirmation of their position. However, we repeat - this is just a personal assumption of the author, a hypothesis, not confirmed by any documents.

Be that as it may, the compromise proposed by A. von Tirpitz did not satisfy either of the parties. Then Rear Admiral G. Gerdes proposed eight 350-mm guns located in four towers linearly elevated in the ship’s ends, but the Secretary of State himself rejected such a weakening of the weapons, finding it unpromising. As a result, the meeting elected a battleship with eight 400-mm guns for further development, but indicated in the resolution that this decision would require an appropriate political assessment.

Three weeks later, the meeting was held again, and now its participants reacted to the 400-mm caliber much more "friendly" than the September 1. Much was said about the prestige of Germany, about the possibility of overtaking competitors - in general, the admirals and designers were now significantly inclined towards the 400-mm gun, and von Tirpitz began to prepare a report for the Kaiser.

There was not much time left - in the late fall, von Tirpitz was to receive an invitation to the annual autumn hunt, which actually happened. There, far from the troubles and vanities of Berlin, the state secretary presented a sketch to the battleship to the Kaiser, from which, in general, the design of the Bayern began. Unfortunately, little is known about this project. The normal displacement of the battleship was 28 250 t, length - 177 m, weapons - 8 * 400-mm, 14 * 150-mm and 10 * 88-mm guns. The project envisaged a three-shaft power plant that became classic for German ships of the line, and the middle shaft was supposed to work on diesel. And that, in general, was all.

Kaiser liked the project, now it was necessary to make a preliminary estimate for the construction of the battleship. Despite the preference that von Tirpitz had for 400-mm caliber, ships with 350-mm and 380-mm guns were also taken into work. And the first estimations showed that the preliminary draft, which demonstrated to Kaiser von Tirpitz, was too optimistic.

The version of the battleship with 10 * 350-mm guns acquired the normal displacement of 29 000 tons and the cost of 59,7 million marks. Well, the battleship with 8 * 400-mm guns turned out to be even larger, despite the fact that its “price tag” was guaranteed to go for 60 million marks. These figures were too high for von Tirpitz, he did not consider it possible to convince politicians of the need to allocate such funds.

And here came the conceptual design of the battleship with 8 * 380-mm guns, worked out by the shipbuilding department: with a normal displacement in 28 100, it should have cost about 57,5 million marks. Such indicators A. von Tirpitz considered quite acceptable, the ship fits into the budgets. Of course, the 400-mm gun was more powerful, but von Tirpitz, forced to take into account the financial and political aspects, wrote to the Kaiser:

“The advantage associated with a further increase in caliber is relatively small, and hence this tool can probably be maintained even when other fleets switch to an even heavier caliber.”


In other words, there is every reason to assume that by refusing 400-mm guns, von Tirpitz argued something like this: now our battleships will still be the strongest, and then, even if some powers switch to 406-mm guns, then we using a lighter 380-mm artillery system, we use the weight saved to enhance the booking of our ships. So our dreadnoughts, being weaker armed, will become better protected and will remain completely equivalent to enemy ships of the same class with 16-inch artillery.

In fact, and without any doubt, at this moment the Kaiser's fleet lost its ultimatum-powerful battleships, which by force of artillery would have significantly surpassed the British. The fact that the 400-mm gun would have been only slightly more powerful than the 380-mm, contained a fair amount of guile, although it is possible that von Tirpitz was simply misinformed by the forecasts of specialists. It is easy for us to reason today, having at hand all the necessary background information, but the most powerful weapon of the German fleet at that time was Krupp's twelve-inch (305-mm), and the rest of the guns did not even exist in the form of some elaborate sketches.

However, if we compare the two guns of England, made at the same technological level - 381-mm and 406-mm, we will see that the difference between them is very noticeable. As we have said, the 381-mm gun fired 871 kg with projectiles with an initial speed of 752 m / s, and the 406-mm cannon, which later received Nelson-type battleships, fired 929 kg with projectiles with an initial speed of 785 m / s. there is a muzzle energy of the 406-mm gun turned out to be about 16,2% higher. It seems to be not so much, but if it is forgotten that the 381-mm cannon was deservedly considered a masterpiece of artillery, but the 406-mm artillery system is considered by all to be unsuccessful. For some reason, the British left the principle of “heavy projectile - low initial speed” to the principle “light projectile - high initial speed”, but for a number of reasons, this very speed could not be ensured - according to the 929 kg project, the projectile should was leaving the barrel at a speed of 828 m / s ... However, later the artillery system was improved, bringing the initial speed to 797 m / s., so that it became more powerful than the British fifteen-inch already by 19,8%. At the same time, the American 406-mm cannon, having a 1000 kg projectile and an initial velocity of 790 m / s, exceeded the British 381-mm gun in muzzle energy by 26,7%.

In other words, there is no doubt that with an equal technological level, the 400-mm gun could have been more powerful than the 380-mm on 20-25%, and this is a very significant superiority. And the Germans stopped literally a step away - another thousand, or one and a half thousand tons of displacement, several million more marks and ... Alas, history does not know the subjunctive mood.


Battleship Bayern


On the other hand, the rejection of 400-mm guns can not be considered a sign of inertia of the German naval leadership. The fact is that at the time of the decision, the Germans knew only that ships with 343-356-mm artillery systems were being built in the world, and that the British seemed to be thinking about an even larger caliber gun, but there was no exact data on the latter. And the Germans made great strides forward, at one stroke increasing the caliber of their guns by almost three inches - the case in naval history is quite exceptional. Suffice it to say that the 380-mm two-gun turret had a weight almost twice as large as a similar turret with 305-mm guns. Thus, the Germans not only decided on a revolutionary increase in the power of their dreadnoughts, but also took this step completely independently, influenced by their own views on the evolution of naval armaments, and not because they were forced to catch up with someone. Information that the British create "381-mm" dreadnoughts, arrived in Germany about six months after the decision to build battleships with 380-mm guns was made.

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163 comments
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  1. +12
    17 December 2018 15: 06
    Thank you for continuing the cycle.
    1. +5
      17 December 2018 17: 57
      Quote: seti
      Thank you for continuing the cycle.

      I join, a smart article. good
  2. 0
    17 December 2018 15: 23
    Oh, those notorious "if only." In fact, the German shipbuilding industry lagged behind the English pretty well, so the Germans had to make ships superior to the British in everything except the number
    1. 0
      17 December 2018 15: 52
      therefore, the Germans needed to make ships superior to the English in all but quantity

      Germans did not take into account other neighbors in the colonies and the North Sea?
      maybe they were still looking at Yap and Franz.
    2. +7
      17 December 2018 18: 34
      Quote: DimanC
      In fact, the German shipbuilding industry was pretty cool behind the English

      What? :))) A lot of German ships of various classes were noticeably better than their British counterparts.
      1. +1
        17 December 2018 21: 41
        I support. Indeed, the move to 15 "or 16" artillery was revolutionary. The mistake is that it was too late to realize that it was necessary to increase the displacement and, as a result, be able to install more powerful mechanisms. That is, to switch to what was called a battle cruiser but with 15 "or 16" artillery. What eventually became "Bismarck" and "Tirpitz" but an earlier version.
        Probably the Germans were tormented by thoughts of already built ships which in this case were threatened with the same thing as recently armadillos. Namely, obsolescence and transformation into potential prey.
        1. +2
          17 December 2018 23: 41
          I believe that we must not forget the financial opportunities. They were somewhat different, in Britain, the States and Germany
          The author, rightly, emphasized: when the Germans made the decision, this factor was one of the key.
          I take off my hat to the author: as always, informatively and intelligibly!)
      2. 0
        18 December 2018 03: 45
        It's about the scale of construction. The Germans could not maintain the pace set by the British. Of course, from the position of afterglow it would be better to recommend the Germans to build ships larger than the English, more powerful armed and better trained crews. And at that time it was more visible in a different way.
      3. The comment was deleted.
      4. 0
        18 December 2018 14: 08
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: DimanC
        In fact, the German shipbuilding industry was pretty cool behind the English

        What? :)))

        I will venture to suggest - in the pace of construction hi
    3. 0
      11 February 2019 06: 21
      not the shipbuilding industry was lagging, but industry in general
      the British estimated that Tirpitz had about 5 times more skilled engineers,
      about three times more money, but the Germans under such conditions kept almost equal thanks
      increase the efficiency of the industry, which was debugged for 30 years and where Tirpitz made a very large contribution. What is it worth only streamlining investments using shipbuilding laws.
  3. +1
    17 December 2018 15: 52
    Very interesting!
    on 350-mm, 38-mm and 400-mm guns.

    missed a respected colleague.
    By the way, if memory serves me right, 380mm German shell was seriously lighter than English
    1. +1
      17 December 2018 16: 52
      The German 15 "shell weighed 750kg.
      1. 0
        11 February 2019 06: 23
        it is worth remembering not only about the projectile, but also about its energy and the amount of explosive that accelerates it
        and that the Germans had a very high quality manufacture of gunpowder.
    2. +1
      17 December 2018 19: 46
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      missed a respected colleague.

      Ivan hi enough already to find fault with every little thing. The author is also a man, and this is a banal typo, not a mistake wink feel
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      380mm German projectile was seriously lighter than English

      750 kg vs 871 kg
      1. +1
        17 December 2018 21: 42
        The quality of German shells at that time was much better than English. So here we can safely talk about parity.
      2. +1
        18 December 2018 09: 24
        Attention to detail - gives rise to perfection, and perfection - not a trifle :)))
        In fact, I really hope that the caught fleas will help with editing and ... what the hell is not joking, the next edition feel
        In addition, the articles of Andrei’s colleague are quickly pulled over by third-party resources
        1. 0
          18 December 2018 17: 38
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          In addition, the articles of Andrei’s colleague are quickly pulled over by third-party resources

          By the way, yes ... request
  4. 0
    17 December 2018 17: 01
    Thanks, interesting.
  5. +1
    17 December 2018 17: 08
    The guns were guns, but the Germans in the fire control system lagged behind the British.
    The German rangefinders worked people with exactly the same vision in both eyes.
    But the towers of the British battleships kept the blow much worse when hit, a charge ignited and because of the design of the towers, fire penetrated the cellars, which caused a loud bang.
    Actually, the Germans built a fleet for battle in the North Sea, unlike the British, whose ships were to fight everywhere. The literature specifically notes the disgusting living conditions in the sea for the crews of battleships from the Germans, but this was not written about British ships.
    Consequently, the Germans built ships for battle in the well-defined conditions of the North Sea, for battle with the British and did not dream of anything more.
    1. +1
      17 December 2018 18: 00
      Quote: saigon
      But the towers of the British battleships kept the blow much worse when hit, a charge ignited and because of the design of the towers, fire penetrated the cellars, which caused a loud bang.

      It was not the construction of the towers. In the same battle of Jutland, the British sailors did not close the armored doors on the conveyors of the supply of shells and powder charges to increase the rate of fire, and it was for this that they paid for the loss of ships.
    2. +6
      17 December 2018 18: 39
      Quote: saigon
      The guns were guns, but the Germans in the fire control system lagged behind the British

      No, not inferior. The software part of the rangefinders was superior, the calculation mechanisms were inferior, on average, that was what
      1. 0
        11 February 2019 06: 26
        the Germans' settlement mechanisms were inferior, but the training of the crew and the debugging of the guidance system as a whole, the duplication of posts, in my opinion, provided the Germans a slight advantage.
    3. +1
      17 December 2018 18: 57
      Quote: saigon
      The literature specifically notes the disgusting living conditions in the sea for the crews of battleships from the Germans, but this was not written about British ships.

      Read
      On battleships of the "Bayern" class, the first among the German dreadnoughts, due to the separation of their heavy artillery in two groups at the tip, it became possible to equip an extensive superstructure in the middle part of the hull, which significantly improved the living conditions of the crew. In this superstructure, first of all, the cabins of the officers and the commander's quarters were located. The Bayern-class battleships were thus the first heavy ships in the Kaiser's fleet, where officers and staff lived off the stern. The new solution brought many benefits - now the officers' cabins have become more spacious, and also, due to their location on one deck higher than before, they are drier and lighter. The way to combat posts in the bow superstructure became incomparably shorter - an important factor at the time of a combat alert.

      Both superdreadnoughts that entered service differed significantly with respect to the composition and location of living quarters. Project "Baden", originally planned as a flagship, included extensive premises for the admiral, his headquarters and staff functions of lower ranks. As a result, the command of the battleship itself was placed much more cramped than on the Bayern.

      The number of the peacetime crew was determined at 1158 people, namely: 32 officers, 4 fenrichs (i.e. graduates of the naval cadet corps, candidates for officers), 33 deck officers (deckoffizier - corresponds to the conductor of the Russian fleet), 1083 non-commissioned officers and sailors , as well as 3 cooks and 3 waiter (barmen). They were joined by non-commissioned officers and lower ranks with a total of 54 people as a 118% reserve, and, in addition, as a mobilization supplement ("Mobilmachungzuschlag"), another 1276 people (though in this case minus the reserve), so according to the schedule in wartime the crew consisted of XNUMX people.

      As the flagship of the High Seas Fleet "Baden" also hosted the headquarters of the fleet, which consisted of an admiral, 17 officers, 9 deck officers, 75 non-commissioned officers and lower ranks, a cook and a waiter, which added up to 104 people. To this number should also be added a five percent reserve of four people and, in addition, nine people as a mobilization addition, so that the total staff of the headquarters reached 117 people. All this led to an increase in the crew of "Baden", as the flagship of the fleet, to 1393 people, that is, more than 100 people more than on "Bayern".

      Subsequently, British naval experts who studied "Baden" disapproved of the level of spaciousness of the battleship's living quarters, and criticized both the officer's cabins and the crew quarters. The only approval of the British accustomed to greater comfort was caused only by the admiral's salon with an area of ​​about 60 m², located on the "Baden" in the superstructure on the forecastle immediately behind the second tower.
  6. +1
    17 December 2018 17: 59
    The author’s hypothesis about 3 gun turrets is curious ... bully
    As well as the Germans' arguments about the effectiveness of 10 * 350 guns versus 8 * 400 ... I hope the author remembers that 12 * 14 "considered worse than 8 * 15"? feel
    1. +3
      17 December 2018 18: 09
      Quote: ser56
      As well as the arguments of the Germans about the effectiveness of 10 * 350 guns versus 8 * 400 ... I hope the author remembers that 12 * 14 "considered worse than 8 * 15"

      And there is. I give the arguments of the Germans, but did I say somewhere that it is true? :) Moreover, I seem to show by the example of 380-mm and 406 mm how much one inch of caliber plays.
      1. -2
        17 December 2018 18: 52
        "Somewhere claimed that it is correct? :)" No, of course, but this does not mean that it is not true ... bully close approaches were also in the RIF ... a cover from a 6-gun half-salvo was noticeably more likely to lead to a hit than from a 4-gun ... bully
        "Moreover, I seem to be using the example of 380 and 406 mm to show how strong just one inch of caliber plays." yes there is not much difference between the calibers - on paper it is more - therefore in WW2 there were LCs with 15 and 16 "... the same Bismarck with 15" sunk 16 "Hood ... request And Bismarck was finished off with 16 "guns, but only because of damage to the rudders - otherwise they would not have caught up with him ...
        1. +8
          17 December 2018 18: 56
          Quote: ser56
          the same Bismarck with 15 "sunk 16" Hood ... request

          laughing fool SIXTEEN-inch "Hood"? :)))) Oh, how many wonderful discoveries we have ...
          Quote: ser56
          yes there is not much difference between calibers

          For you, no. But actually there :)
          1. -1
            18 December 2018 17: 36
            Why only for me? bully
            If you look at how high-speed LCs were built before 2MB, then only the USA and the Japanese built 16dm and +! The Germans, French, Italians cost 15 dm, the British generally cost 14 dm, and their last Weingard was armed with the old 15 dm and did not steam ... request
            The Soviet Union’s attempt to build an aircraft with 16 dm was not obvious (except for the IVS feel ) - like the idea of ​​buying German 15dm towers was popular among manufacturers ... bully
            And the casket just opened - even on the G3 project it became clear that the standard displacement was about 50ct! With all the ensuing consequences for the construction and basing! bully
            Let's just say - as always in technology - size matters ... laughing
            1. +3
              18 December 2018 18: 00
              Quote: ser56
              Why only for me? bully

              Obviously, by the power of your intellect laughing
              Quote: ser56
              If you look at how high-speed LCs were built in front of 2MV, then only the USA and the Japanese built 16dm and +! Germans, French, Italians cost 15dm

              Firstly, the fact that the Germans / French / Italians put 380-381-mm on their ships does not refute the fact that the 406-mm were obviously more powerful. And secondly, I strongly recommend that you finally familiarize yourself with the materiel, in order to know why all of the above went to the installation of less powerful guns.
              1. -1
                18 December 2018 18: 43
                "does not disprove the fact that 406 mm were obviously more powerful"
                1) does anyone argue with this fact? bully
                2) I'm trying to convey to you the banal - the best enemy of the good, there is the concept of sufficiency and optimality ...
                "I strongly recommend that you finally familiarize yourself with the materiel,"
                You are corny tired of your mentor tone ... the experience of a discussion with you has repeatedly shown failures in your knowledge, this is normal - you cannot know everything ... request
                "why did all of the above go to the installation of less powerful guns"
                this is exactly what I am trying to convey to you! bully
                I’ll say something seditious in general - the construction of high-speed LCs with 16dm guns was not necessary and not justified by gigantomania ... bully These ships did not give anything special in practice to either the Americans or the Japanese ... hi And the resources were swollen large - in general, the Japanese realized this and the third LC was completed as AV ...
                1. +3
                  18 December 2018 19: 20
                  Quote: ser56
                  Does anyone argue with this fact?

                  Oh, how forgetful you are! When I wrote to you
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Moreover, I seem to be showing by the example of 380-mm and 406 mm how strong one inch of caliber plays.

                  What did you answer me?
                  Quote: ser56
                  yes there is not much difference between calibers

                  Early sclerosis? :)))
                  Quote: ser56
                  You are corny tired of your mentor tone ...

                  And you openly amuse me with your militant illiteracy.
                  Quote: ser56
                  the experience of a discussion with you has repeatedly shown failures in your knowledge

                  Let those who read our correspondence judge this.
      2. 0
        11 February 2019 06: 31
        you understand that the matter is far from limited to caliber
        and evaluate changes, limited to an inch, to put it mildly incorrect.
  7. +1
    17 December 2018 18: 45
    Article plus smile drinks
    On January 6, 1912, a decisive report was made by Grand Admiral Wilhelm II on the main characteristics of future battleships, which was also attended by the heads of the relevant divisions of the Naval Ministry - the head of the weapons department Gerdes and the shipbuilding department Bürkner. After a report, a lengthy discussion and a thorough discussion of all tables and general projects of future battleships, the Kaiser finally approved the armament of the new battleships with eight 15 "(38 cm) 45-caliber guns.

    So the decision was made about the sensational step later in the technical development of the German fleet. Such a significant jump in caliber during the transition from one series of battleships to another was never made, either before or after. The 15 "two-gun mount weighed almost twice as much as the 12" turret used so far. Much more important is that they decided to do this when no foreign fleet had yet had such a heavy weapon, and there were only vague rumors that Britain was planning to increase the main caliber instead of the 13,5 "guns. This independence of the German decision was convincingly indicated. subsequently, in his speeches, the then chief designer of the fleet, Buerkner, emphasizing that the German fleet on January 6, 1912, “did not yet have any information about Queen Elisabeth, which was laid down only nine months later.” In the same way, “the architect Of the Open Sea Fleet "A. Tirpitz:" When we learned that the British intended to increase the caliber of their guns again and it became likely that they would also go to thicken the armor, which until that time was inferior to ours, we decided in 1912-1913. jump over the intermediate caliber and supply the squadron, scheduled for laying in 1913, with such artillery that would be powerful enough under any circumstances: we chose the 38-centimeter caliber. In fact, the British switched to this caliber simultaneously with us. "

    You can further develop the idea of ​​the beginning of design and its nuances, but still leave this to the author hi
    1. 0
      18 December 2018 02: 13
      What's the point? The Badens did not make it to Jutland. But the Queens and the "R" type - all managed.
  8. +1
    17 December 2018 20: 06
    Thank! The Germans are conservative, and if they decided on such a serious increase in the parameters of ships under construction, they had a strong justification for that.
    At the expense of Germany’s lagging behind Great Britain in shipbuilding - yes, it was, but at the beginning of the WWII in general, German industry, in particular metallurgy, mechanical engineering in general and heavy industry in particular, chemistry, already exceeded British industry. Yes, and in shipbuilding the lag was not so significant - Germany had a large merchant and passenger fleet, built mainly on its own, including numerous transatlantic liners - rivals of the British in the struggle for the blue ribbon of the Atlantic (and the owners of this prize).
    We are waiting for the continuation.
  9. +1
    17 December 2018 20: 50
    Wow, thanks to the author!
    I just waited for the continuation!

    Interestingly, Tirpitz actually actually predicted the maximum caliber of battleships !!
    In the ability to analyze the Germans will not refuse!
  10. +1
    17 December 2018 20: 55
    And again, the title is only indirectly related to the content of the article.
    In addition to caliber, many factors (mass, speed, projectile design, accuracy, barrel life, quality of guidance devices) are no less important, and their importance would be worth comparing. IMHO, when any hit is a very non-trivial task, the power of the gun goes to the background as far as I know, in those days the target hit on average only 5%.
    1. +4
      17 December 2018 21: 23
      Quote: Corn
      In addition to caliber, many factors (mass, speed, projectile design, accuracy, barrel life, quality of guidance devices) are no less important, and their importance would be worth comparing.

      The guns of the battleship "Queen Elizabeth"

      The guns of the battleship "Bayern"

      See how thinner the walls of the muzzle are than the Brit
      Read
      The new 15 "C / 13 artillery system, designed by the Department of Armaments of the Naval Ministry (ie" model 1913 ") continued the tradition of German naval heavy calibers of the previous models, which consisted of following the principle of" lightweight projectile / increased muzzle velocity ". internal threaded pipe, three rows of fastening cylinders above it and the casing, and had a horizontal-prismatic wedge breech.The total weight of the barrel with the bolt was 76,2 tons, and the relative was, therefore, 1,69 tons per one caliber of its length. superior quality gun steel and traditionally advanced bonding technologies, the new German heavy gun was very lightweight (for example, the muzzle was only about 9 cm thick). Noteworthy is the comparison of this gun with its British counterpart - 15 "/ 42" Model I " (MK-I) of the Royal Navy. Weighing 101,6 tons (including the weight of the piston-type shutter), this latter had a full barrel length of 43,36 caliber (i.e. 16520 mm) and a relative weight of 2,34 tons per caliber of length - almost 40% more than new German gun. Due to the use of a relatively light projectile (750 kg versus 871 kg for the British) and the message to it of a high initial velocity (800 m / s - pressure in the chamber 3150 kg / cm2 - versus 732 m / s for Mk-I), a new German model with a little higher muzzle energy (24465 tm versus 23787 tm - a difference of 2,8%) had much better flatness, and a more advanced shell design made the advantage of the German artillery system even more tangible.

      The combat supply of each German 15 "/ 45 gun included 60 armor-piercing and 30 high-explosive shells, which had a relative length of 3,5 and 4,1 clb, respectively. The equipment of a high-explosive shell was 67,1 kg of TNT, armor-piercing 23,5 kg (high explosive respectively 9 and 3%). Both types of projectile were generally similar to the corresponding 12 "projectiles, equipped with a bottom fuse and had two belts of red copper - leading and centering. The armor-piercing projectile was supplied with a mild steel armor-piercing cap, over which a hollow ballistic brass tip was screwed, bringing the radius to life up to four calibers (4 CRH).
      1. +1
        17 December 2018 22: 06
        Thank you.
        Quote: Rurikovich
        possessed much better flatness, and a more advanced design of shells made the advantage of the German artillery system even more tangible
        ...
        The armor-piercing shell was supplied with an armor-piercing cap of mild steel, over which a hollow ballistic tip made of brass was screwed

        Here at the moments, and together with the accuracy and quality of guidance, it would be worthwhile to conduct a comparative analysis of various naval guns.
        Otherwise, this is a debate about the coolness of the pitching and the boxer.
      2. +1
        17 December 2018 23: 20
        Quote: Rurikovich
        , and a more advanced design of shells made the advantage of the German artillery system even more tangible.

        If my memory serves me right, then by the time Baern was put into operation, the British had already introduced 15 "Greenboy" guns into the ammunition load, which had a fairly progressive design.
        1. 0
          11 February 2019 06: 36
          Greenboys were not introduced into the ammunition load, but into the nomenclature, and they still had to order, make, deliver, test and master the gunners. The battle of Skagerrak went without greenboys.
      3. 0
        18 December 2018 03: 54
        The logic of the Germans can be understood here: no one was psychologically fully prepared for battles with ships literally on the horizon, so they thought straight enough - to hit the ship on the side, flat. But not from above. In this sense, it is a pity that the Iowas and Yamata did not have a chance to participate in artillery duels with enemy ships.
        1. +1
          18 December 2018 12: 19
          Quote: DimanC

          The logic of the Germans can be understood here: no one was psychologically fully prepared for battles with ships literally on the horizon, so they thought straight enough - to hit the ship on the side, flat. But not from above. In this sense, it is a pity that the Iowas and Yamata did not have the opportunity to participate in artillery duels with enemy ships.


          And in this the Germans were right - the flat trajectory is not only the "fastest" (short flight time of the projectile), but also more accurate when firing at moving targets. In addition, a light projectile lost speed faster when firing at long distances and the second part of the trajectory was more hinged.
          The Russian artillery school (even before the WWII) and the American (after the WWII) followed the same path in the development of naval guns.
    2. +1
      18 December 2018 15: 52
      Quote: Corn
      In addition to caliber, many factors (mass, speed, projectile design, accuracy, barrel life, quality of guidance devices) are no less important, and their importance would be worth comparing.

      We have not even reached the description of the Bayern design yet, and we will compare the battleships after we describe the design of all three
  11. +3
    17 December 2018 22: 18
    +++ to the author, did not make us wait long. I am amazed at German pedantry, for some one and a half thousand tons and a million marks (2,5%!) ... The same thing earlier with the line. cruisers.
    3. Ascending torque of the turret turret during firing, since the axes of the outer guns were farther from the center of the installation than in the two-gun turret. I must say that, although this objection is absolutely true, with a reasonable design of the towers, it did not lead to any complications.

    But in my opinion, the objection is strange)) This can be true with volleys of only one gun from the tower. This would be convenient (and practiced with 4 guns) with 8 guns in 4 towers and with 12 guns in 4 towers, but not with 10 guns in combinations of 3 and 2 guns. towers. They must fire with 4-guns (2 extreme cannons from the lower towers) and 6-guns (medium cannons from the lower and both cannons of the upper towers) in multiple salvos completely absent unfolding moment. What can not be said when firing from one gun with 2 guns. towers. What "religion" hated to shoot full volleys from the towers, I don’t know, but the English were not even designed for such loads.
    Rather, two guns in the "remainder" with a 4-gun. sighting did not like the German artillerymen.
  12. +1
    17 December 2018 22: 33
    Thanks for the article Andrew! Why didn’t the Germans include Byern in the squadron on a campaign against Jutland instead of worthless battleships, since competent sailors could be removed from them, the battle would be much more interesting!
    1. 0
      18 December 2018 04: 02
      Once one American admiral arrogantly declared in the 80s that even if they gave the USSR a fully equipped aircraft carrier, the "Soviets" would need 10 years to learn how to fight on it. Let's leave those specific dates on the conscience of this admiral. But one cannot agree with him that achieving combat readiness takes time. It is banal to ask the crew to perform automatic actions so that they can do everything with their eyes closed. Apparently, the Germans did not have advanced technologies for accelerated training, it was necessary to do everything measuredly, in German, pedantically. So we didn't have time to get to Jutland.
      1. +1
        18 December 2018 10: 23
        Quote: DimanC
        It is trite to delay the crew to automatic actions so that they can do everything with their eyes closed.


        These are two very big differences - to conduct training wing aircraft with an aircraft carrier and military operations.
        No study will give experience in combat use ...
    2. 0
      18 December 2018 19: 49
      Quote: Victor Wolz
      Why the Germans did not include Bayern in the squadron in a campaign on Jutland

      But how? :)))) Then he was not yet combat ready, they handed him to the fleet in March 1916,
      1. 0
        19 December 2018 20: 13
        And what could be not ready there? We also drove to Tsushima on Orel and others representatives from the factory and sailors from other ships. The commander could be found, the commandos for medium guns removed from the battleships, there were mechanics and they could have been taken from the factory, the main caliber would have been shot during the battle.
        1. +2
          19 December 2018 20: 59
          Quote: Victor Wolz
          And what could be not ready there?

          The crew, of course.
          Quote: Victor Wolz
          We also drove to Tsushima on Orel and others representatives from the factory and sailors from other ships.

          Yes. But the Germans did not allow this at home, and besides, do not forget that during the many months of transition, the flight crew could teach something
          1. 0
            19 December 2018 22: 45
            That is why they scambled with worthless armadillos and eventually lost the Pommern, and could even fill up the battleship or battlecruiser with the British.
  13. +2
    17 December 2018 23: 35
    thanks to Andrei from Chelyabinsk, I learn a lot in the topic that attracted all the time but there was no way to delve into it!
    Thanks Andrew
    1. +1
      18 December 2018 19: 49
      Always please, glad I liked it!
  14. +1
    18 December 2018 10: 17
    I must say, the argument is completely far-fetched - both then and later many ships with three-gun towers were built, whose hull strength was quite satisfactory.


    What does “completely contrived” mean?

    Strength: if you break the ties of stringers, frames, decks, beams, this will cause the need to reinforce the structure, and in terms of the total weight, the weight of the reinforcements will exceed the "torn structural elements" - load diagrams change, the hull loses strength.
    1. 0
      18 December 2018 11: 06
      And still, the total gain in mass from the placement of guns in 3 gun turrets will save weight, despite the large mass of reinforcements in the hull. And the British came to this on the Nelsons, and the French, and then the British came to the four-gun towers.
      1. +3
        18 December 2018 12: 00
        Quote: Potter
        And still, the total gain in mass from the placement of guns in 3 gun turrets will save weight, despite the large mass of reinforcements in the hull. And the British came to this on the Nelsons, and the French, and then the British came to the four-gun towers.


        The question is not that.
        It just seems that everything is simple there - cut decks, beams, stringers, etc.
        Here, for example, what the Americans faced when calculating the replacement of 45 caliber guns of 406 mm mark1 with 50 caliber guns of the same caliber - mark 2:
        50-caliber guns were heavier than 45-caliber guns - only the guns themselves gave an additional 400 tons of weight. At the same time, the installations themselves under them turned out to be heavier - it was necessary to increase the diameter of the barbet from 11,35 m to 12 m. In total, this gave 1600 tons of additional weight on the installations and armor of the barbets, another 400 t was needed to strengthen the hull due to the larger “cutouts” in the decks.



        It would seem - a "slight" increase in the diameter of three barbets from 11,35 m to 12 m (650 mm in total in internal diameter) - gives an advantage of 400 tons solely for reinforcing the hull strength set (one of the variants of the Iowa battleship).
        So for the designer, breaking the transverse and longitudinal connections of the force set is an argument far from far-fetched.
        1. 0
          18 December 2018 17: 20
          ... when calculating the replacement of 45 caliber guns 406 mm mark1 with 50 caliber guns of the same caliber - mark2

          Dear colleague DimerVladimer, I don’t know where this text came from, but with the numbers in it something is very wrong. Can you indicate on which battleship the replacement of 406/45 with 406/50 was carried out? I do not know such.
          1. +1
            18 December 2018 18: 54
            Quote: anzar
            Can you indicate on which battleship the replacement of 406/45 with 406/50 was carried out? I do not know such.

            I understand that uv. DimerVladimer compared SODAK and Iowa turrets - how much the dimensions and weight increased when the barrels were lengthened by only 5 calibers, and the diameter of the barbet was only 650 mm, and how much the weight of the hull reinforcements increased.
            ... calculations performed in May 1938 showed that the Mk-2 gun is 42 tons heavier than the 45-caliber Mk-6, that is, only the weight of artillery without installations already gives an increase of 381 tons. The diameter of the barbete of the three-gun tower, if used Mk-6 guns will have to be increased from 11.36 m to 11,995 m - in total, the increase in artillery weight together with turret armature and armor of barbets will reach 2000 tons.
            Original Russian Text © S.A. Balakin. Iowa-class battleships.
            Moreover, in the course of further design of the Iowa there was a big scandal when the Bureau of Armaments promised to return to a barbet with a diameter of 11,35 m (saving 785 tons) ... and could not, resulting in a tower with a barbet with a diameter of 11,89 m. Yankees even wanted to go back to the 16 "/ 45, but still managed to leave the 16" / 50 on the new LC - at the cost of developing new lightweight Mark 7 guns instead of using the Mark 2 and 3 stored in warehouses left over from the "Washington dead".
            1. +1
              18 December 2018 21: 23
              I understand that uv. DimerVladimer compared the Sodak and Iowa towers ...

              It sounds logical for you. But then the Dakotas have 16 "/ 45 Mark1 which side? Mark6 are there. This is misleading. And the required diameter of the barbette does not depend on the weight of the guns, but on the length of the guns and the accepted feeding pattern.
              And yet the numbers wrong... Apparently the translators wrote 1 ton instead of 1,000 pounds. In this case, "400t" (supposedly the difference in the weight of the guns) turns into 182t / 9pcs = 20,2t, which corresponds to the difference in weight between 16 "/ 45 Mark1 and 16" / 50 Mark2. Probably this also applies to the rest of the figures given.
              1. 0
                19 December 2018 12: 17
                Quote: anzar
                It sounds logical for you. But then the Dakotas 16 "/ 45 Mark1 which side?

                So I am surprised. smile Because Balakin clearly says - Mk-2 gun 42 t heavier than 45-caliber Mk-xnumx.
                Quote: anzar
                And yet the numbers are wrong. Apparently the translators wrote 1 ton instead of 1,000 pounds.

                Maybe it’s not a matter of pounds, but the fact that it was not taken into account that for Mark 6 the mass in the directories is given without a shutter (Gun Weight 192,310 lbs. (97,231 kg) (without breech)), and for Mark 2 - full (Gun Weight 128.15 tons (130.2 mt)).
                1. +1
                  19 December 2018 12: 52
                  Gun Weight 192,310 lbs. (97,231kg)

                  SW colleague, navweaps also abounds with such errors. So, I decided to check the conversion by multiplying by 0,453 - it turned out not 97231 but 87116 kg. I don’t know which figure is correct - 87t for a 406mm gun is too small, although in English. Wiki indicated exactly 87230kg. But at least that's the basis for mistakes.
                  Those. if you take it without a shutter, you get those very 42t. Although UTB does not give 9 cannons for 400 cannons, it’s close.
                  I used to consider the difference in weight to the indicated counterpart mark1, and it is heavier than mark6.
          2. +1
            19 December 2018 10: 10
            Quote: anzar
            Dear colleague DimerVladimer, I don’t know where this text came from, but with the numbers in it something is very wrong. Can you indicate on which battleship the replacement of 406/45 with 406/50 was carried out? I do not know such.


            Marine guns 406 mm Mark 7.
            We are talking about the stage of preliminary designing of new battleships of 1939 (the future type "Iowa"), on which 406 mm Mark 7 guns of a long barrel of 50 calibers were installed.
            Original Source Friedman, US Battleships, 1985, p. 311.
            1. 0
              19 December 2018 10: 51
              Marine guns 406 mm Mark 7.

              That is, an error (typo) crept into your text. Here is what they wrote:
              Here, for example, what the Americans faced when calculating the replacement of 45 406 mm caliber guns mark1 50 gauge of the same caliber - mark 2:
              50-caliber guns were heavier than 45-caliber guns - only the guns themselves gave additional 400 t weights ...

              Apparently we are talking about replacing the Iow 45cal project. mark6 to 50cal. mark2 (the old ones from the arsenal, at the beginning they wanted to put them)) Then they put the new Mark7 (50 cal.)
              But still the difference in weight is 9br. guns can not be 400t! What do you think of the error in converting pounds to metric tons? That is, the digit should be multiplied by 0,453.
              1. +2
                19 December 2018 12: 39
                Quote: anzar
                Apparently we are talking about replacing the Iow 45cal project. mark6 to 50cal. mark2 (the old ones from the arsenal, at the beginning they wanted to be installed))

                The point is that the three-gun turrets with 16 "/ 45 Mark 6, already designed for Norki and Sodak, were taken as a starting point - and the new three-gun 16" / 50 turrets designed for Iowa were compared with them. ".
                Nobody planned to install 16 "/ 45" on "Iowa" (except for a short period of the "scandal with barbets"). The new LCs were originally designed for 16 "/ 50 Mark 2. However, during the design process it turned out that the barbets of the BSh GK with these guns do not fit into the already designed building - the Bureau of Armaments was unable to "squeeze" them to the already approved diameter. It was impossible to redesign the hull - while the displacement inevitably increased and the dimensions of the LK + were lost time. As an option, we considered the installation 16 "/ 45 Mark 6. But fortunately, the Bureau of Armaments insured itself and, in parallel with the development of the BSh GK for 16" / 50 Mark 2, the beginning of work on a new lightweight 16 "/ 50 gun, the future Mark 7. The BSh GK with these guns fit into the hull without problems - so that further design went already with it.
                1. 0
                  19 December 2018 13: 31
                  The point is that the three-gun turrets with 16 "/ 45 Mark 6, already designed for Norki and Sodak, were taken as a starting point ...

                  Yes, you already wrote it. I wonder why mark2 did not fit into a slightly smaller barbet, the length (m2 and m7) is the same, but the total weight does not count. Perhaps in m2 the trunk in front weighed more, so the rocking axis is more forward?
                  However, rather, the Mk7 weighs too much back-that's the weight of the shutter they write.
                  267,904 lbs. (121,519 kg) (including breech)
                  239,156 lbs. (108,479 kg) (without breech)
                  23t shutter! Is it possible?
                  1. 0
                    19 December 2018 14: 00
                    23t shutter! Is it possible?

                    Error, 13t, but still looks like a counterweight)))
                2. 0
                  19 December 2018 14: 58
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  Nobody planned to install 16 "/ 45" on "Iowa" (except for a short period of the "scandal with barbets"). The new LCs were originally designed for 16 "/ 50 Mark 2. However, during the design process it turned out that the barbets of the BSh GK with these guns do not fit into the already designed building - the Bureau of Armaments was unable to "squeeze" them to the already approved diameter. It was impossible to redesign the hull - while the displacement inevitably increased and the dimensions of the LK + were lost time. As an option, we considered the installation 16 "/ 45 Mark 6. But fortunately, the Bureau of Armaments insured itself and, in parallel with the development of the BSh GK for 16" / 50 Mark 2, the beginning of work on a new lightweight 16 "/ 50 gun, the future Mark 7. The BSh GK with these guns fit into the hull without problems - so that further design went already with it.


                  Quite fair.
      2. 0
        18 December 2018 14: 56
        In fact, the main argument in favor of two-gun towers was precisely the caliber of the guns mounted on the same barbet. So 8h380-mm guns in terms of striking ability will exceed 12h305-mm guns. But this is for 4 towers. Also about four-guns: 9 × 406 mm guns are better than 12 × 356 mm for three towers. But the 6x457 mm is worse than the same 9x406 mm. Four-gun towers have an advantage only for a two-tower ship.
      3. 0
        11 February 2019 06: 43
        the transition to 4 gun turrets did not happen,
        because in fact, King George 5 had a bad tower and in real conditions it was no better than a three-gun one and often could only shoot 2-3 guns, but not 4. And the French 4 gun tower on Richelieu was essentially just attached to each other a friend with two 2 gun turrets on the same track.
        Those. no one had a normal 4 gun turret, but there were some strange freaks.
    2. 0
      18 December 2018 11: 26
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      loading diagrams change, the body loses strength.

      After the WWII everyone rushed together to strengthen the deck reservations. So the strength still improved. But the observation is correct.
      1. 0
        18 December 2018 12: 32
        Quote: brn521

        After the WWII everyone rushed together to strengthen the deck reservations. So the strength still improved. But the observation is correct.

        This is subject to the inclusion of armored decks in the power set of the hull)
    3. +2
      18 December 2018 15: 23
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      What does “completely contrived” mean?

      It means that on other ships this problem was successfully solved.
      1. 0
        19 December 2018 15: 26
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        It means that on other ships this problem was successfully solved.


        Successfully? Viribus Unitis with 280 mm main armor belt? Or hyperetrics with xnumx mm? Dante Alighieri with xnumx mm? Three-gun LCs had far from the most outstanding protection.

        The problem of increasing the diameter of the barbette, one solution - each torn beams, stringer - requires twice as much reinforcement mass and German shipbuilders were well aware that increasing the diameter of the barbet, exponentially requires an increase in the mass of reinforcements.
        At the same time, the strength of the hull decreases, since the reinforcements only partially compensate for the breaking of the force bonds and precisely the longitudinal bonds. The extra weight of reinforcements and weapons can be offset from the armor.

        Although Viribus is very good, his 12 "45 is far from the most outstanding weapon of that war.
        1. +1
          19 December 2018 16: 59
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          Successfully? Viribus Unitis with 280 mm main armor belt? Or hyperetrics with xnumx mm? Dante Alighieri with xnumx mm? Three-gun LCs had far from the most outstanding protection.

          Dear colleague, you here, in my opinion, gave a blunder wink The thickness of the armor belts of these ships is in no way related to the three-gun turrets. The Unitis has a 280mm belt due to its limited displacement, in principle, the Empresses have a peculiarity of the armor protection scheme itself (not the thickest BP, but uniform thickness in height, and extended), and Dante is a typical Italian, and Italians rarely bother with armor. The three-gun turrets of the main battery are no sideways here.
          1. 0
            20 December 2018 10: 53
            Quote: arturpraetor
            Dear colleague, I think you gave a blast here. The thickness of the armor belts of these ships is in no way connected with the three-gun turrets. The Unitis has a 280mm belt due to its limited displacement, in principle, the Empresses have a peculiarity of the armor protection scheme itself (not the thickest BP, but uniform thickness in height, and extended), and Dante is a typical Italian, and Italians rarely bother with armor. The three-gun turrets of the main battery are no sideways here.


            Of course I do not associate the thickness of the armor belts with the number of guns in the towers, of course, everything is tied to the displacement, to the dimensions of the docks, to the budget of the building - the juxtaposition of the forces of a potential enemy, etc.

            But from the listed battleships with three guns per tower, only Uribus looks weighed, but compared to the "Kenigami" - it is rather weak in defense.

            That is, a primitive comparison of 5 × 2 - 305-mm / 50 and the armored belt 350 mm on Koenig (25390 t displacement norms)
            it's significantly better than the 4 × 3 305 mm / 45 and the armor belt 280 mm on the Viribus. (20013 t normal displacement)

            Why didn't the Germans use the three-gun turrets? I agree with Andrey - apparently inert thinking. Perhaps there was no "live", elaborate project of the three-gun turret.
            Skoda had a well-developed project, which was implemented on Viribus.
            1. +1
              20 December 2018 11: 32
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              That is, a primitive comparison of 5 × 2 - 305-mm / 50 and the armored belt 350 mm on Koenig (25390 t displacement norms)
              it's significantly better than the 4 × 3 305 mm / 45 and the armor belt 280 mm on the Viribus. (20013 t normal displacement)

              Doesn't it bother you that Viribus is 5 thousand tons less? Or do you think that he is 5 thousand tons "fatter" with the same armament and with all the same three-gun turrets, would the main belt still remain 280 mm? However, for some reason it seems to me that if the Austrians had set the displacement limit for these 5 thousand tons more, the Unitises would have received two-gun turrets.
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              Why didn’t the Germans use the three-gun towers?

              Or let’s go on the other side - why did the Austrians go to the three-gun towers? smile Two-gun towers were still used for a very long time and were used in many places, the largest naval powers preferred just two-gun towers. Of course, there was clearly inertia of thinking here, but, apparently, all the same, the x3 towers had their drawbacks for the first time, and three-gun turrets were installed on Viribuses for lack of other alternatives - 12 guns in 6 two-gun towers would cost thousands of two tons more than the minimum ("Ostfriesland"), otherwise the Austrians would have put tested and proven x2, as did the Germans, much less constrained in the size of their ships. Of course, this is rather an assumption, Vinogradov in MorKol points out that the three-gun towers were simply copied from the Italians, but the Italians EMNIP just came to them in the desire to fit the maximum of guns into a limited displacement.

              The only place where it is possible (and even necessary) to strongly criticize for inertness of thinking, and not just point it out, is the Japanese "Fuso" and "Ise". Still, six 356-mm turrets for one ship is a lot, the troughs turned out to be large, but the armor protection was not really delivered, the 305-mm belt was short, and everything else was covered worse than our "Sevastopol" (203mm). For a superdreadnought, this is unforgivable, while Viribus, with its "sharpening" against Italian dreadnoughts, had a 280-mm main belt and a 180-mm upper belt ... Well, not so good, but very much even, the main opponents of the armor belt were even thinner.
              1. 0
                20 December 2018 15: 09
                Quote: arturpraetor
                Doesn't it bother you that Viribus is 5 thousand tons less? Or do you think that he is 5 thousand tons "fatter" with the same armament and with all the same three-gun turrets, would the main belt still remain 280 mm? However, for some reason it seems to me that if the Austrians had set the displacement limit for these 5 thousand tons more, the Unitises would have received two-gun turrets.


                Little confuses me, dear Artem.
                The designer usually proceeds from the available capabilities, trying to fit into the specified performance characteristics with minimal dimensions and budget
                Viribus has both the length and width of the hull less than the Königs - perhaps these restrictions are related to the size of the construction docks. Because to constructively increase the displacement - just make a "bigger" hull and put on the appropriate armor, but then the speed will drop - everything is interconnected. Their project for its time turned out to be very balanced.
                About the viribus towers - like the development of Skoda, but where they drew from - was not interested.
                1. +2
                  20 December 2018 16: 00
                  Quote: DimerVladimer
                  At Viribus, both the length and width of the hull are smaller than the Koenig - perhaps these restrictions are related to the size of the construction docks.

                  Dear colleague, Viribus had limitations primarily in terms of displacement and cost, since the budget of the Imperial and Royal Fleets of Austria-Hungary was very scanty, and there was not enough money for a complete modernization of infrastructure - even for dreadnoughts comparable to German sizes ... At the same time, the Austro-Hungarian dreadnoughts had to resist the French (10 guns onboard salvo) or Italian (12-13 guns) dreadnoughts, which means they needed powerful weapons in the amount of 10-12 guns. The preference was given to more powerful weapons, discarding the option with 10 305-mm cannons in two-gun turrets - even taking into account the reinforcements of the hull, the three-gun turrets still gave savings of 15-20 percent (according to preliminary calculations), and significant savings in volume (Viribus is very tightly packed). In the variant with two-gun turrets, by the way, the armor protection was generally ridiculous by the standards of 1909 - 230-mm belt and 250-mm turrets, and you scold the 280-mm belt. There were other options, but they were even less sane. And all this in conditions when money for dreadnoughts larger than 20 thousand tons at face value simply would not have been allocated - in order to "fit" into the allotted displacement, they even had to abandon 305/50-mm guns in favor of lighter 305/45-mm guns! Yes, "Viribus" did not shine with its qualities in comparison with peers, superdreadnoughts, but taking into account how (with a limit of 20 thousand tons) and against whom (Italians and French, who did not shine with the combat qualities of ships) it was created, the project overall very, very good.
                  1. 0
                    11 February 2019 06: 49
                    it is worth recalling the theater of warfare - this is the Adriatic.
                    in such a cramped place you won’t especially turn around. And the course of history showed that only the small fleet worked well there.
        2. +1
          19 December 2018 20: 57
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          Successfully? Viribus Unitis with 280 mm main armor belt? Or hyperetrics with xnumx mm? Dante Alighieri with xnumx mm? Three-gun LCs had far from the most outstanding protection.

          Which has nothing to do with the issue we are discussing. Firstly, if we talk about the reservation, then we must take its total mass and not the thickness of the PSU - it seems to me that this is obvious. And secondly, to prove your thesis, armor is not interesting at all, but you need to look at the specific gravities of the hull in the ship's displacement. And if it turns out that the hulls of ships with three-gun towers were heavier, then yes, you can talk about something.
        3. 0
          11 February 2019 06: 47
          I wonder why they never tried to make the placement of guns like a 4 barrel anti-aircraft gun a square and the epaulette would not have to be increased - it would remain at the level of 2 gun turrets.
  15. +1
    18 December 2018 11: 24
    In other words, there is no doubt that with an equal technological level, a 400 mm gun could be more powerful than a 380 mm gun by 20-25%, and this is a very significant superiority. And the Germans stopped literally a step away from him


    On the other hand, the later developed naval gun 38 cm SKC / 34 fully met the requirements imposed on it - at a distance of 20000 m it pierced more than 400 mm of vertical armor, giving the projectile an excellent flat trajectory (of the order of 12,1 degrees elevation), there was a spread on this distances of the order of 110 m - which is half as long as the length of the hull of the battleship modern at that time - is a good tool.
    1. 0
      18 December 2018 12: 37
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      there was a scatter at this distance of the order of 110 m - which is half as long as the length of the hull of the battleship modern at that time - a good tool.

      The numbers are good), but most likely this is the scatter when firing a single gun from a firing range, and in real firing from standard tower installations, the dispersion in the salvo has slightly different values.
      1. 0
        19 December 2018 10: 18
        Quote: BORMAN82
        The numbers are good), but most likely this is the scatter when firing a single gun from a firing range, and in real firing from standard tower installations, the dispersion in the salvo has slightly different values.


        While describing the battle of Jutland, H. Haase noted that Derflinger shells were stacked along the transverse scatter in the length of the hull of the British battlecruiser (that is, within 200 m).

        And even more modern guns of a larger caliber (380 mm) and more modern guidance devices could give a better result.
        1. 0
          19 December 2018 12: 12
          In addition to the transverse scatter, there is also a spread in range, which is 1.5-2 times larger than laterally (the zone of incidence of shells has the shape of an ellipse elongated in range)
          And the scattering of shells described by Haase was observed when shooting at 9000-10000m (if memory serves)
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          more modern guidance devices could give a better result.

          The dispersion of shells in a salvo (external ballistics of the shell) does not in any way depend on the "modernity" of the guidance devices.
          1. 0
            19 December 2018 14: 54
            Quote: BORMAN82
            In addition to the transverse scatter, there is also a spread in range, which is 1.5-2 times larger than laterally (the zone of incidence of shells has the shape of an ellipse elongated in range)


            Just do not need to learn the basics of ballistics :))
            Also remind that the length of the scatter ellipse is a derivative of the angle of fire :)

            Quote: BORMAN82
            And the scattering of shells described by Haase was observed when shooting at 9000-10000m (if the memory does not change)

            A little more - but it is not so important.


            Quote: BORMAN82
            The dispersion of shells in a salvo (external ballistics of the shell) does not in any way depend on the "modernity" of the guidance devices.


            Therefore, I wrote - "result", which implies accuracy, which includes not only the scatter ellipse, but also the data, the outstanding guidance and consistency of the OMS and the specific gun mount.

            Of course, you know that the reduction in a salvo is made to one point.
            The spread in the salvo will depend heavily on the ammunition and the batch of propellant charges and the firing of specific barrels - there is probably no point in listing the numerous factors of influence.
    2. 0
      18 December 2018 14: 48
      For a ship with a displacement of 52 - 55 thousand tons 380 mm guns - absurd. All this is a consequence of the erroneous concept of the battleship-raider, a kind of tanker with guns, with armor smeared over the hull, weak protection of decks and artillery.
      Only disguised "traders" can raid the ocean, and the battleship's lot is a decisive battle in the theater of operations. According to this parameter, "Bismarck" and "Tirpitz" were supposed to carry 420-mm cannons (like the subsequent battleships of the H type) and a limited area of ​​action - the North Sea, the French Atlantic for the blockade of the British in their bases. Well, the corresponding booking - in short "Yamato in German".
      Bayern is much closer to the ideal battleship of the First World War, with one amendment: the time of squadron battles at a speed of 18-20 knots by 1917 had passed.
  16. +8
    18 December 2018 13: 21
    Dear colleague, a small request - do not stop writing your articles, at least occasionally laughing
    And then recently in other sections (even in "History" and "Armament") sometimes such game flickers, especially in the comments, that by God it would have left the topvar for good ... And only a few authors, including you, write normal articles, and even if there is srach in the comments, it is mostly cultural and educational, and not throwing each other's opponents with slogans, myths and other outright nonsense wassat
    1. +4
      18 December 2018 16: 15
      Greetings, dear colleague!
      Praised, honestly feel
      Quote: arturpraetor
      And then recently in other sections (even in "History" and "Armament") sometimes such game flickers

      Nuuu, if you remember the individual frames on althistori, where, it would seem, there should have been less of this ... But, alas, I also feel like a black magician-necromancer - in the article about "Novik" the Unnamed (Passer-by) was reborn and this is not for the first time. In general, the Forces of the Universal Internet Atrocity, my articles are also used to their advantage :)))))))
      1. +2
        18 December 2018 16: 20
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Well, if you recall the individual frames on the althistory, where, it would seem, this should have been less ....

        Quite the contrary - Aishniki are creative people, the flight of imagination often breaks away from real life, so there can be even more wildness free there. But sometimes it already begins to seem to me that some authors and commentators on Topvar are much more AIShniki than colleagues on Althistory ...
  17. +2
    18 December 2018 14: 17
    The choice of the main caliber 15 "or 16" is a very difficult task.
    On the one hand, all the arguments speak in favor of 16 ", however, when considering the inevitable increase in loads under the armament article, a ship armed with 15" cannons with equal displacement and travel is much better protected from 16 "cannon fire than a similar ship armed with 16" cannons from the fire of 15 "cannons. This was demonstrated in 1935 during the preliminary design of promising British battleships. And the gain in flatness compensates for the difference in armor penetration at distances of real combat (for that era, 50 - 100 cab.). For battleships with a full displacement 30-35 thousand tons caliber 15 "or 16" and a speed of 21 knots are equally suitable. The main difference is the penetration of the deck armor. Here all the advantages are on the side of the 16 "shell. Considering the difference in the booking system and the inability to control the distance of the battle, "Bayern" is definitely inferior to the "Colorado".
    1. +1
      18 December 2018 15: 26
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Considering the difference in the booking system and the inability to control the distance of the battle, "Bayern" is definitely inferior to the "Colorado".

      Well, Colorado is still a post-war battleship, and indeed everything is completely, I would say, not so simple
    2. +1
      21 December 2018 10: 47
      Viktor Leningradets writes: "... however, when considering the inevitable increase in the load under the armament article, a ship armed with 15" cannons with equal displacement and stroke is much better protected from 16 "cannon fire than a similar ship armed with 16" cannons 15 "guns. This was demonstrated in 1935 during the preliminary design of promising British battleships."

      It is well said, but this is true only when the VI is below the "Washington". With a large "equal displacement" (> 40kT), the 16 "battleship has a clear advantage.
      1. +2
        21 December 2018 17: 40
        As for the displacement, you are absolutely right.
        Sinful, made his own calculations for the bookmark ships of the 30s, received the following:
        - With a full displacement of 40 - 45 thousand tons, the optimal caliber is 381 mm / L45;
        - With a total displacement of 45 - 50 thousand tons, the optimal caliber is 381 mm / L50 or 406 mm / L45;
        - With a total displacement of more than 50 thousand tons, the optimal caliber is 406 mm / L50.
        The optimal projectile weight is 381 mm 880 kg for L45 and 900 kg for L50, for 406 mm 1080 kg for L45 shells and 1110 kg for L50 (flatness and accuracy were taken into account at a distance of 80-160 cab., Penetration of the target 350 mm vertical side Krupp cemented and 150 mm deck WH).
        1. 0
          21 December 2018 23: 21
          Victor Leningradets writes: Sinful, made his own calculations for the bookmark ships of the 30s, received the following: ...

          Thanks for the good information (I had only "general considerations" ((. As far as you are well informed, could you say something about the unusual lightness of the Amer. 406mm / 45 Mark 6 in reference books - 87t (without shutter) that 380mm Bismarck gun with less muzzle energy weighed more (111t)? Reference books errors? After all, other American cannons are not so "ethereal" Or the bolt weight of 14t (!) is obtained for 406mm / 50 Mark7 from the same reference books?
          1. +1
            24 December 2018 13: 09
            Sorry for the late reply, Anzar was not in touch.
            According to the American 16 "Mark 6, we can say that this is a completely new gun compared to the 16" Mark 1 and modification 16 "Mark 5. However, in the NavWep reference, the weight of the barrel with a bolt for the 16" Mark 6 is 97 tons, and for the 16 "Mark 1 - 107 tons. The whole thing is in new steels and powders. Ballistics for a projectile weighing 1016 kg for both barrels is the same.
            The masses of 50-caliber guns are also quite consistent: 16 "Mark 7 - 108,5 tons (with a bolt and obviously with a counterweight - 121,5 tons); 16" Mark 2 130,2 tons.
            The Germans did not hurt records and 111 tons for the SKC-34 38-cm are explained by increased requirements for accuracy.
            1. 0
              24 December 2018 21: 16
              The essence of my question on Mark 6 is that there is an error in Navveps, it says: "Gun Weight 192,310 lbs. (97,231 kg) without breech A 192,310 lbs 87,2t. Which of the two numbers is correct? 87,2t writes in English. Vicky, but this seems too small for a 16 "and does not fit with other guns. Not only is it made of new steels, but ...
              1. 0
                25 December 2018 10: 56
                Maybe it means a barrel without a breech and a bolt. So it looks like no thinness against the background of other "American" do not suffer.
                1. 0
                  25 December 2018 12: 06
                  It's about the difference m / y 87t. (192000lb) and 97t. without shutter. As I understand it, you think that the correct figure is 97t. Then yes, there is no "thinness".
          2. +1
            24 December 2018 13: 31
            I forgot to add, we modeled these parameters back in the mid-90s. The move for all battleships was taken at 30 knots, protection from the American 16 "Mk 5 (ZSM 18,3 - 27,4 km).
    3. 0
      11 February 2019 06: 55
      I don’t know why you got 50-100 cabs.
      the British found back in 1902 that high-quality guidance beyond 50-55kb simply could not provide for a long time (this is one of the justifications for abandoning a light projectile that flies further), and when the dreadnought descended on the water, it was only about distances of 20-22 cabs - they simply did not know how to direct further.
  18. 0
    18 December 2018 15: 17
    The German 380 mm guns turned out to be so-so, at about the level of the Russian 356 mm gun.
    1. +1
      18 December 2018 15: 50
      Quote: Kolin
      The German 380 mm guns turned out to be so-so, at about the level of the Russian 356 mm gun.

      747,9 projectile with an initial speed of 732 m / s is equal to 750 kg projectile with an initial speed of 800 m / sec?
      1. +1
        18 December 2018 17: 37
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: Kolin
        The German 380 mm guns turned out to be so-so, at about the level of the Russian 356 mm gun.

        747,9 projectile with an initial speed of 732 m / s is equal to 750 kg projectile with an initial speed of 800 m / sec?

        Sea battles of that time were not conducted at pistol distances.
        For example, by 75kbt, the Russian 14 "projectile won at the final speed of about 40m / s from the" German "(less caliber - less resistance), and even had greater armor penetration, again, due to a smaller caliber.
        1. 0
          11 February 2019 07: 00
          For example, at 75kbt, Russian 14 "shell

          this made sense only in theory, because no one in the world could correct fire at such a distance. The Germans hoped with the help of airships to raise the quality of the adjustment, but v-day came, and they were stupidly blown away by the wind and there was no opportunity to check.
          1. 0
            11 February 2019 08: 16
            75 cable? And in Jutland, at what distances did the fighting go?
      2. 0
        19 December 2018 15: 42
        1. Russian shell slows down more slowly, but at the same speed it penetrates better.
        2. With the well-established production of barrels, the initial velocity of the projectile in our gun would be greater since I would not need a large resource of the barrel.
        1. +1
          19 December 2018 20: 02
          Quote: Kolin
          Russian shell slows down more slowly, but at the same speed it penetrates better.

          Nikolay, this is not entirely true. For example, if we use Martynov’s calculator, we’ll see that when shooting around 75 cables, the speed of the 356-mm projectile weighing 747,8 kg at the initial speed of 731,5 m / s is 439,2 m the angle of incidence is 15,39 deg, but for 380-mm a German gun firing an 750 kg projectile with an initial speed of 800 msec these figures are 480,3 m / s and 12,6 deg respectively. That is, Comrade Jura misinforms you infinitely - the 356-mm projectile at this distance has a speed LOWER than 40 m / s (and not higher) and, moreover, the incidence angle of the 380 mm projectile is less, that is, its armor penetration will be significantly higher.
          The fact is that in addition to the caliber and mass / velocity of the projectile, the so-called projectile shape factor plays a large role, it must be selected empirically on the Martynov calculator based on the actual range and angle of elevation of the gun (that is, knowing the mass of the projectile, initial velocity, angle of elevation of the gun and firing range, we get the shell shape factor, which we use to predict its final speed / range / angle of incidence at various elevation angles of the gun.
          And Yura’s calculations ... he either lies, or simply made a mistake, substituting not actual but predicted data for the planned initial speed
          1. 0
            21 December 2018 05: 02
            [/ quote] And Yura’s calculations ... he either lies, or simply made a mistake, substituting not actual but predicted data for the planned initial speed [quote]

            Did not guess with either the first or the second.
            The data for 14 "/ 52 are actually calculated on the calculator, but the data for the" German "are taken from Vinogradov's book" Superdreadnoughts of the II Reich .... "
            1. +1
              21 December 2018 07: 31
              Quote: Jura 27
              Did not guess with either the first or the second.
              Data for 14 "/ 52, actually calculated on a calculator

              That is, I am absolutely right. And you didn’t even have enough brains to check Vinogradov’s data on the same calculator in order to understand how correlated one is with the other in a single coordinate system ...
              And why am I not surprised?
              1. 0
                22 December 2018 05: 01
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Quote: Jura 27
                Did not guess with either the first or the second.
                Data for 14 "/ 52, actually calculated on a calculator

                That is, I am absolutely right. And you didn’t even have enough brains to check Vinogradov’s data on the same calculator in order to understand how correlated one is with the other in a single coordinate system ...
                And why am I not surprised?

                You obviously have not enough brains, because. Given the level of Vinogradov as an author, I suggested that he cited German data (i.e., true, not approximate from the calculator).
                For the Russian cannon, for lack of shooting tables, I had to use a calculator.
                By the way, in the bulk calculator for the "German" you cannot put the coefficient of the shape of the projectile, the same as for the Russian projectile - they can be very different.
                1. +1
                  22 December 2018 21: 33
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  You obviously have not enough brains, because. Given the level of Vinogradov as an author, I suggested that he cited German data (i.e., true, not approximate from the calculator).

                  Yura, you are not even able to understand, even when I directly point out your most obvious mistakes.
                  The fact is that not a single calculator is perfect. Therefore, you cannot just take data from an arbitrarily accurate source for one gun, and compare them with the calculated data for another. It is necessary to take the exact data from the source for the 380 mm (if you have decided that they are accurate), and to predict the result with respect to a certain reference point taken for the 356 mm gun.
                  I’ll explain simply - to determine the coefficient of the projectile it is necessary to take it from a certain point of the 356-mm gun, for example, from the maximum firing range, since here we know the elevation angle and range accurately. And then, in the calculations, use it precisely, since it will be a constant at any range. But you cannot calculate the parameters of the shot of the 356-mm gun and compare them with the actual data of the 380-mm gun from the source, because in this case there is an error in the accuracy of the calculator
                  To exclude it, it is necessary to make the SAME calculation in the calculator for the 380-mm gun and compare the results obtained - thus, the error of the calculator is selected, not completely, but still
                  1. 0
                    23 December 2018 17: 24
                    [/ quote] The fact is that not a single calculator is perfect. [quote]

                    That's for sure. Especially he was imperfect in Vinogradov. Having looked at the book (and not the data written out from it), I found (hee-hee) that there is a calculation for the BC and these calculation data, they can’t beat at all with the navvips data and the data from the beginning of Vinogradov’s book.
                    Therefore, I counted and it turned out at a range of 75 kb that is:
                    - for 38cm / 45 guns, - speed 477m / s (K = 0,69), thickness of pierced armor CC - 318mm,
                    - for 14 "/ 52 guns, - window speed 441,5 m / s (K = 0,76), thickness of test armor 305 mm.
                    Bottom line: the difference is approx. 4%, i.e. nothing, - the guns are equivalent.
          2. 0
            21 December 2018 16: 32
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Quote: Kolin
            Russian shell slows down more slowly, but at the same speed it penetrates better.

            Nikolay, this is not entirely true. For example, if we use Martynov’s calculator, we’ll see that when shooting around 75 cables, the speed of the 356-mm projectile weighing 747,8 kg at the initial speed of 731,5 m / s is 439,2 m the angle of incidence is 15,39 deg, but for 380-mm a German gun firing an 750 kg projectile with an initial speed of 800 msec these figures are 480,3 m / s and 12,6 deg respectively. That is, Comrade Jura misinforms you infinitely - the 356-mm projectile at this distance has a speed LOWER than 40 m / s (and not higher) and, moreover, the incidence angle of the 380 mm projectile is less, that is, its armor penetration will be significantly higher.

            The difference in armor penetration is about 6%, this is about the same level.

            The fact is that in addition to the caliber and mass / velocity of the projectile, the so-called projectile shape factor plays a large role, it must be selected empirically on the Martynov calculator based on the actual range and angle of elevation of the gun (that is, knowing the mass of the projectile, initial velocity, angle of elevation of the gun and firing range, we get the shell shape factor, which we use to predict its final speed / range / angle of incidence at various elevation angles of the gun.

            If you use this data http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_14-52_mk6.php
            it should be noted that Martynov’s form factor at 20 degrees - 24,400 yards (22,310 m) and 25 degrees 25,420 yards (23,240 m) will be different.
            1. 0
              21 December 2018 17: 03
              Quote: Kolin
              If you use this data http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_14-52_mk6.php
              it should be noted that Martynov’s form factor at 20 degrees - 24,400 yards (22,310 m) and 25 degrees 25,420 yards (23,240 m) will be different.

              I know this, and it’s right to take exactly 25 degrees and 23 240 m - this was the real range achieved by the 356-mm guns (when the latter were installed on the railway platform)
              Quote: Kolin
              The difference in armor penetration is about 6%, this is about the same level.

              I'm afraid your calculation is wrong, in my opinion you simply didn’t calculate according to De Marr - note that the armor in the formula has an 0,7 degree, taking into account this, the difference in armor penetration is 8,3%
  19. 0
    18 December 2018 17: 15
    Good evening.
    Well, in general, the choice of the caliber of the main battery will be a dilemma in a quarter of a century. The Italians in 1934 having laid down their "Littorio" and "Vittorio Veneto" chose 380 mm for them. GK and 700t. Of saved weight (on which the conclusion of Italian experts was based that 380 mm and 406 mm have approximately the same destructive power - Question). But they made a choice in favor of 380 mm. And this is the mid-30s, and here is the beginning of the century. And so for the caliber 15 "dreadnoughts, both already built and expected to be built, were penetrable for this caliber at all distances. Well, what was the point of investing in the increase in the weight of the guns, tower installations and the battleship itself, and this is not little money. For the sake of excess power. , at that time 16 "caliber? What's the point of running ahead of the locomotive?
    And as for the reservation, I read at Vinogradov that the English armor from the First World War exceeded the German armor by 10-15% (how much is this true?) Then it turns out that the difference in booking German and English LC and LCR is not so great . And if it is true that the Russian armor hardened by the Gantke method was also superior to Krupp, then the picture with the reservation of Russian LKR becomes quite interesting.
    1. 0
      18 December 2018 17: 41
      Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
      Good evening.

      And as for the reservation, I read at Vinogradov that the English armor from the First World War exceeded the German armor by 10-15% (how much is this true?) Then it turns out that the difference in booking German and English LC and LCR is not so great . And if it is true that the Russian armor hardened by the Gantke method was also superior to Krupp, then the picture with the reservation of Russian LKR becomes quite interesting.

      The picture is not in favor of Russian Krupp armor (which was actually put on the LC).
      She was, so to speak, "the first generation" (the original patent of Krupp), and the British had "the second generation".
    2. +2
      18 December 2018 19: 46
      Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
      And as for the reservation, I read at Vinogradov that the English armor, from the time of the First World War, exceeded the German armor by 10-15% (how much is this true?) It turns out that the difference in booking German and English LK and LKr is not so great . And if it is true that Russian armor hardened by the Gantke method was also superior to Krupp

      In fact, everything is very complicated here, and opens up the widest scope for various kinds of speculation. The fact is that the quality of the armor could only be established by equivalent tests of armored plates of the same thickness of all manufacturers, but this never happened. It would also be possible to somehow compare the strength of the armor by the method of its manufacture, but the fact is that there is a lot of fog and little data.
      In any case, we can recall the words Grigorovich said to Nikolai 2 in 1914
      ... at the Offshore testing ground, comparative experiments were made between the slabs of the Izhora plant and the slabs of the French plant "Creusot" and the English "Vickers", which presented slabs of a special manufacture, and the penetration rate of the slabs of the Izhora plant was not lower than the slabs of these foreign plants, but in fact a pood the plant turned out to be much cheaper than the cost of the armor of foreign factories
      1. -3
        19 December 2018 05: 47
        [/ quote] The fact is that the quality of the armor could be established only by equivalent tests of armored plates of the same thickness of all manufacturers, but this never happened. It would also be possible to somehow compare the strength of the armor by the method of its manufacture, but the fact is that there is a lot of fog and little data.
        In any case, we can recall the words of Grigorovich that he said to Nicholas II in 2 [quote]

        It is necessary to clarify that it was not "never happened", but that "some people simply do not know about it."
        The Angles did not intend to deliver new items to the Russian fleet, that armor, that ICE.
        Franks, used at that time the Krupp armor of the so-called. "first generation".
        1. +2
          19 December 2018 13: 43
          Why is it so categorical? The British sometimes offered for export, projects of ships are better than what they themselves had, remember the "Congo". Why do you think that Russian-made armor is a priori worse than its foreign counterparts? Is your belief based only on bias?
          1. 0
            19 December 2018 15: 32
            Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
            Why is it so categorical? The British sometimes offered for export, projects of ships are better than what they themselves had, remember the "Congo". Why do you think that Russian-made armor is a priori worse than its foreign counterparts? Is your belief based only on bias?

            No, only exclusively on the test results of firing on English armor with Russian shells.
        2. +3
          19 December 2018 15: 15
          Quote: Jura 27
          It is necessary to clarify that it was not "never happened", but that "some people simply do not know about it."
          The Angles did not intend to deliver new items to the Russian fleet, that armor, that ICE.

          That is, the private shop "Vickers", to the detriment of its profits, decided to provide quality inferior armor for testing - in order to be guaranteed to lose possible orders? Given that Vickers has been actively exploring the Russian market for about 10 years.
          Let me remind you that this is the same Vickers company, which, even during the RYAV, in violation of international laws, began the construction of the Rurik-2 cruiser for Russia. And the same company "Vickers", which got into a close Russian-French get-together with its Tsaritsyn plant, and actively cooperated with Morved in the supply of guns (from 120 mm to 356 mm) and armor.
          1. -2
            19 December 2018 15: 37
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Quote: Jura 27
            It is necessary to clarify that it was not "never happened", but that "some people simply do not know about it."
            The Angles did not intend to deliver new items to the Russian fleet, that armor, that ICE.

            That is, the private shop "Vickers", to the detriment of its profits, decided to provide quality inferior armor for testing - in order to be guaranteed to lose possible orders? Given that Vickers has been actively exploring the Russian market for about 10 years.
            Let me remind you that this is the same Vickers company, which, even during the RYAV, in violation of international laws, began the construction of the Rurik-2 cruiser for Russia. And the same company "Vickers", which got into a close Russian-French get-together with its Tsaritsyn plant, and actively cooperated with Morved in the supply of guns (from 120 mm to 356 mm) and armor.

            Why is the loss of profit? Adequate price for adequate quality, which was not inferior (within the limits of known errors) to Russian and Frankish armor.
            In the "Congo", not everything is as good as it seems - the 8 "belt in the age of 14" and larger caliber guns.
            During the REV, two Japanese armadillos were being built with might and main, and no one screamed for a violation of any law.
        3. +4
          19 December 2018 15: 26
          Quote: Jura 27
          The Angles did not intend to deliver new items to the Russian fleet, that armor, that ICE.

          Yes, yes, yes ... the Englishwoman always crap. smile
          The set of devices Pollan is:
          1. On a range finder with hours in each conning tower
          2. On the range finder with a clock in each tower
          3. Two plotting tables for each ship, one on each side
          4. All indicators and devices required for fire control in the Argo-Pollen system.

          Pollen's proposal is to supply kits for 11 dreadnoughts, Andrei, Pavel and 6 cruisers (April 1914)

          RGA Navy, f.418, op.1, d.4549
          © retracted from the Tsushima forum

          That is, the limes were just being offered us a complete set of the most modern SUAO at that time (EMNIP, the fact was that Pollen flew with the RN order - his system was better, but also more expensive, so the Admiralty ordered the SUAO from "its" Dreyer ).
          But the decision that what Pollan proposed to buy and how to complete our ships was made on our part.
          1. +2
            19 December 2018 17: 37
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Yes, yes, yes ... the Englishwoman always crap.

            Alexei, who are you arguing with? :)))) Jura will write any nonsense, if only in contradiction. Simply, with the CCP he obviously got into a puddle: that Pollan’s devices were much more perfect than those that were put into the arsenal of the Royal Navy, he doesn’t know, and also doesn’t know that the British supplied us with rangefinders that were quite equivalent to them, although this is well known. It’s impossible to say why Yura took the opposite (a man’s fantasy is completely childish) - apparently from the same place from which he brought the backlog of Russian armor
            1. -2
              20 December 2018 11: 40
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Yes, yes, yes ... the Englishwoman always crap.

              Alexei, who are you arguing with? :)))) Jura will write any nonsense, if only in contradiction. Simply, with the CCP he obviously got into a puddle: that Pollan’s devices were much more perfect than those that were put into the arsenal of the Royal Navy, he doesn’t know, and also doesn’t know that the British supplied us with rangefinders that were quite equivalent to them, although this is well known. It’s impossible to say why Yura took the opposite (a man’s fantasy is completely childish) - apparently from the same place from which he brought the backlog of Russian armor

              What is the use of their advancement if the complete set and the required number of these sets have not been sold.
              And what does the rangefinders have to do with it? The Germans gladly sold them and they were no worse than the English ones.
              Well, of course, tests of different armor with the same projectile (Russian for 12 "/ 52), a fact that does not mean anything to Andrew. And of course, Andryusha is pofik that the projectile crashed on the English 8" armor, and the Russian 270mm (and 250mm too) overcame "with a bang."
          2. 0
            20 December 2018 11: 31
            [/ quote] That is, limes were just offering us a full set of the most modern SUAO at that time (EMNIP, the fact was that Pollen flew with the RN order - his system was better, but also more expensive, so the Admiralty ordered the SUAO from "his" Dreyer).
            But the decision about what Pollan proposed to buy and how to complete our ships was made on our part. [Quote]

            Proposal and procurement plans are just one side. Compare with the other side - what and how much was purchased.
            1. +3
              20 December 2018 13: 48
              Quote: Jura 27
              Proposal and procurement plans are just one side. Compare with the other side - what and how much was purchased.

              That is, that our Morved decided to buy only part of the offer, are the limes also to blame? belay
              1. +2
                20 December 2018 18: 06
                Quote: Alexey RA
                That is, that our Morved decided to buy only part of the offer, are the limes also to blame?

                Sure. But most of all, our "prodigy" made me happy regarding the tests of 270 mm and 203 mm armor plates, now I at least understand where the "legs grow" from this "discovery". Tell?
                1. +3
                  20 December 2018 18: 10
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  To tell?

                  Ask more laughing
                  1. +3
                    20 December 2018 18: 54
                    Quote: arturpraetor
                    Ask more

                    And everything is very simple. The fact is that the 305-mm Russian shell for our 305-mm / 52 was tested not only in Russia but also in England, but, unfortunately, there is very little data about the latest tests. It is known that in Britons, the Russian shell was tested on an 8-dm plate at an angle of 20 degrees. At a speed of 1447 ft / sec - it broke up, that is, it crashed, it turns out. At 1615 ft / sec - struck in its entirety.
                    But in Russia, the 305-mm shell showed something like greater power. He punched an 270 mm plate at a speed of 1 415 ft / sec. Further, however, questions arise.
                    Firstly, it is extremely doubtful that these would be shells of the same batch (as it should ideally be). The second - they shot at an 270-mm plate with an unloaded shell, which was used to shoot at the British one - is unknown. The British were shot at an angle of 20 degrees (we are obviously talking about a deviation to the normal), but ours is unknown. It can be assumed that a similar angle, but generally speaking, is not indicated in the test log itself. Was an armor-piercing tip used in either case? Unknown Was the shell tested in Britain equipped, and if so, what kind of pipe was there? Unknown And this is extremely important for armor penetration. If the British fired an unloaded shell, did they bring it to the standard weight? Unknown Has the British 203 mm plate been exposed prior to this test? It is unknown, but it is known for sure that the 270-mm plate about which they shot in Russia was not only already fired upon, but also had penetrations, including one of which she received a shot earlier that day. Was the quality of the armor plates comparable, that is, were they made at the same time? The question is far from idle, since the armor was improved gradually, and, for example, the armor of the release of the 15-16 of the year could be better than the 1913 both with us and the British. Again - unknown.
                    In general, in short, we have no reason to consider the test conditions comparable
                    1. +2
                      20 December 2018 22: 05
                      Good evening.
                      Yes, there are many questions.
                      1.When were the tests of 305 mm Russian shell carried out? If after the revolution, then it could be a shell from Alexander ///. Gone to Bizerte.
                      2. Was that one single shell? If not, how did the other shells behave?
                      3. What distance did this shooting correspond to?
                      1. +1
                        20 December 2018 22: 35
                        Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
                        When was the 305 mm Russian projectile tested? If after the revolution, then it could be a shell from Alexander

                        I would like to know more about it myself, so far all I have is a mention of these English trials on the Tsushima website.
                        Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
                        Was that one single shell? If not, how did the other shells behave?

                        Nuuu, there were at least two of them - the second one still pierced the armor plate :)))
                        Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
                        What distance did this shooting correspond to?

                        Absolutely I won’t say exactly, but 1447 ft / sec is about 75 cables. By the way, the angle of incidence at such a distance is slightly less than 15 degrees, and not 20, as during the experiments on the British plate
                      2. 0
                        21 December 2018 00: 53
                        Good night Andrei Nikolaevich.
                        From your words, more precisely from the information you have, according to the angle of the meeting of the projectile and the plate, the distance will turn out to be 100-110 cab.? But then the penetration of the second shell 8 "armor plate from 18,5 km. For a 12" shell the result is worthy.
                    2. -2
                      21 December 2018 04: 31
                      [/ quote] In general, in short, we have no reason to consider the test conditions comparable [quote]

                      Are you blind in both eyes? Or whole head? For those who have everything in order with vision, reading skills and with a head, - ABSOLUTELY ALL data is given in the Russian and English documents.
                      And ABSOLUTELY ALL of these data testify in favor of the better armor resistance of the Anglovian plate (not much). And even if all the data were "for" Russian armor (again, not by much), the difference in the thickness of the punched plates is simply colossal - 250-270mm and 203mm. This speaks of different generations of armor plates.
                      1. +1
                        21 December 2018 07: 32
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Are you blind in both eyes? Or whole head? For those who have everything in order with vision, reading skills and with a head, - ABSOLUTELY ALL data is given in the Russian and English documents.

                        Yes, no question, young talent, lay out an English document, read :)))
                      2. The comment was deleted.
                      3. +1
                        22 December 2018 09: 53
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Both on the same vi, it turns out he did not read.

                        What was said directly
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I would like to know more about it myself, so far all I have is a mention of these English trials on the Tsushima website.

                        Quote: Jura 27
                        And there is a reference to a tsus.

                        And where is she, Yura? :)))) Come on, hit the rally on the road and sloppiness
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Write point by point a list of claims to the English and Russian docks.

                        It seems to have been given above. Someone accused me of blindness? :)))
                      4. The comment was deleted.
                      5. +2
                        22 December 2018 22: 22
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Hit: http://www.gwpda.org/naval/adm186_189.htm

                        Well done, Jura, hit :)))) And, as always, he killed himself with one blow to death.
                        So, we look at the test date - 1918 :))))) That is, the British armor plate is of military manufacture, that is, it is completely different from the domestic 270-mm plate actually shot at the training ground in 1920, because this armor plate was installed on the experimental compartment in 1914, but itself was not manufactured in 1914, but "taken from old stocks" (Forgotten lessons of the distant war).
                        As I said, these plates are not analogues, since they were produced at different times.
                        Well, in addition, the questions that I asked above remain, since the 1920 r tests were carried out by unloaded shells brought to the required mass, but how the British fired is, alas, not clear.
                        But you know what’s the funniest thing? :))) In the table you provided, there is no information at all that the Russian shell did not penetrate the armor. It is written that it collapsed, but where is it indicated that the armor remained unbroken?
                        Was there a boy, Yura? :))))
                      6. +1
                        22 December 2018 23: 39
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        There is no information at all in the table given by you that the Russian shell did not penetrate the armor. It is written that it collapsed, but where is it indicated that the armor remained unbroken?

                        If I correctly understood the above table, then both times the Russian shell pierced the armor - at least simply because the dimensions of the inlets in the armored plate are indicated for both tests with the Russian shell (7 and 8 numbers). I believe that in case of non-penetration there would be a dash smile
                      7. 0
                        16 February 2019 11: 51
                        Good afternoon, colleague, I'm sorry, I missed a very exciting discussion at the end of last year, but I also found that Yura was almost right. I do not have exact data for the selection of "K" either, but the approximate British armor of that time has a much better coefficient relative to Russian shells than Russian. Soon there will be a comparison of standards, let's see how Andrey from Chelyabinsk will correlate the quality of one armor with another and where he will get the conversion factors), if I try to refresh this dispute a little on a new branch. Yours faithfully, hi
                      8. -2
                        23 December 2018 17: 42
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Hit: http://www.gwpda.org/naval/adm186_189.htm

                        Well done, Jura, hit :)))) And, as always, he killed himself with one blow to death.
                        So, we look at the test date - 1918 :))))) That is, the British armor plate is of military manufacture, that is, it is completely different from the domestic 270-mm plate actually shot at the training ground in 1920, because this armor plate was installed on the experimental compartment in 1914, but itself was not manufactured in 1914, but "taken from old stocks" (Forgotten lessons of the distant war).
                        As I said, these plates are not analogues, since they were produced at different times.
                        Well, in addition, the questions that I asked above remain, since the 1920 r tests were carried out by unloaded shells brought to the required mass, but how the British fired is, alas, not clear.
                        But you know what’s the funniest thing? :))) In the table you provided, there is no information at all that the Russian shell did not penetrate the armor. It is written that it collapsed, but where is it indicated that the armor remained unbroken?
                        Was there a boy, Yura? :))))

                        As you can see from the dock, these are not tests of armor (the latest), but tests of shells (post-Utland), for which an ordinary plate was taken from the stock (almost from some "Congo", because other ships with 8 " -th armor and I can't remember.) That is, at the time of testing, the Angles had such a quality of plates for a long time (probably a year from the 13th or 14th), which is confirmed by a very small number of penetrations of 9 "armor in Jutland. That is, if the Angles had 9 "armor of Russian production, then there would be much more penetrations (Russian 225mm armor penetrated the Russian 12" model 1911 up to 130 kbt, and the German shell was no worse in quality, and the gun even more powerful than Russian).
                        The Russian shell undoubtedly pierced the armor, because the size of the hole in the plate is indicated, but it collapsed. But when the same shell pierced 250-270mm Russian armor, it did not collapse and pierced the bulkheads behind it, including armored ones, that is, it fulfilled its function in full, to defeat the insides of the ship.
                      9. 0
                        16 February 2019 11: 54
                        Good afternoon, colleague, sorry, I missed a very fascinating discussion at the end of last year.

                        That is, if the Angles had 9 "armor of Russian production, then there would be much more penetrations (Russian 225mm armor penetrated the Russian 12" model 1911 up to 130 kbt, and the German shell was not worse in quality, and the gun even more powerful than Russian).


                        Plus 100500. I counted it myself, not only in calculators, but also with my hands in Excel. There are no exact data, but by rough estimates, I get Russian armor = about "Quality 420", and the British one is much better.

                        Soon there will be a comparison of standards, let's see how Andrei from Chelyabinsk correlates the quality of one armor with another and where the conversion factors will come from), if I try to refresh this dispute a bit already on a new branch.

                        Best regards, hi
                      10. +1
                        17 February 2019 07: 12
                        I am only for, with both hands. The set of Russian armor is extremely low, in the region of 1920 (with an estimated norm of 2132). Those. as soon as they began to shoot at Russian armor with high-quality BBS, their frankly low characteristics became clear immediately.
                      11. 0
                        17 February 2019 10: 16
                        prohibitively low, in the region of 1920 (with an estimated norm of 2132).


                        I also succeeded in the area K = 1920 in the Chesma compartment (that is, almost at the level of rejection)
                        firing estimates of 1920 gave K even lower prohibitively low

                        I understand correctly that for the calculated norm you take the value approved by the tubing?

                        Shl. basically decided to refrain from posts on the topic "Sevastopol is a complete mistake of Russian shipbuilding" for now, but I really look forward to firing from Andrey from Chelyabinsk from standard to standard, at least

                        Best regards, hi
                      12. 0
                        18 February 2019 10: 26
                        Is tubing hto?
                        2132 is from Goncharov.
                        Shooting from standard to standard - how is it?
                      13. 0
                        18 February 2019 20: 45
                        Is tubing hto?


                        NKVS UVMS RKKA (I don’t remember exactly how it is) = technical management of the UVMS - these are those who took the value of Goncharov) Ok, it happened, only for Goncharov K = 2134 good

                        Shooting from standard to standard - how is it?


                        I'm talking about "standard battleships ...". Looking forward to continuing
              2. -3
                21 December 2018 04: 33
                [/ quote] That is, that our Morved decided to buy only part of the offer, are limes to blame too? [quote]

                You still don’t understand the main thing: the morved wanted a lot, and the limes sold a piece, because full sale is banned.
                1. +2
                  21 December 2018 07: 33
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  the morveda wanted a lot, but the limes sold a piece, because full sale is banned.

                  Yura, lying not blushing. Well, or documents confirming the refusal of the British to the studio
                  1. -2
                    22 December 2018 05: 14
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    the morveda wanted a lot, but the limes sold a piece, because full sale is banned.

                    Yura, lying not blushing. Well, or documents confirming the refusal of the British to the studio

                    If anyone is lying, then the source of this information is a colleague "comrade". It was he who mentioned that the Angles did not sell everything that was needed and on the “Seva” there was a combined hodgepodge as a PUAO.
                    Write to him, he will tell you in more detail.
                    1. +3
                      22 December 2018 09: 55
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      If anyone is lying, then the source of this information is a colleague "comrade".

                      No, Yura, it’s you who are lying, don’t have to refer to Valentine :))) I know what he wrote about, we corresponded a lot on this topic.
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      It was he who mentioned that the Angles did not sell everything that was needed and on the “Seva” there was a combined hodgepodge as a PUAO.

                      The solyanka there turned out to be completely different.
                      1. -1
                        22 December 2018 16: 52
                        [/ quote] I know what he wrote about, we corresponded with him a lot on this topic. [quote]

                        That is, you want to say that he claimed that the Angles sold the VCP in full and in the requested Russian quantities?
                        as far as I remember, he wrote about the interference of the Angloian admiralty in the sale deal, which affected the completeness and the number of these "incomplete parts".
    3. 0
      11 February 2019 07: 11
      Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
      what was the conclusion of Italian experts based on that 380 mm

      The Italians put on rate of fire, superiority in the refinement of the design and ultimate characteristics, do not forget that they originally built battleships for a small radius of action.
      But the Italians approach completely failed - they eventually received the disgusting artillery of the Civil Code.
  20. 0
    18 December 2018 17: 19
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    SIXTEEN-inch "Hood"? :)))) Oh, how many wonderful discoveries we have ...

    yes, something I got excited bully - thought about Rodney who finished off Bismarck feel
  21. +2
    18 December 2018 17: 21
    As always an interesting article.

    Von Tirpitz ordered some calculations, both technical and tactical, and was soon convinced that the maximum caliber of guns was stabilizing somewhere around 16 inches (400-406 mm). In this, his assumptions were confirmed by consultants from Krupp, who claimed that the British, adhering to the old methods of manufacturing artillery systems (wire trunks), would not be able to create heavier sea guns.


    It should be added that the matter here was not limited to just some calculations. Realizing that they were mistaken with small calibers of the main battery, the Germans thoroughly set about researching various versions of the main battery, including 508 mm. For example, 406 mm. The main battery was considered in 45 and 50 caliber versions, and as a result, 420 mm / 45 with shells weighing 1000 kg were chosen for the battleships that were to be built after the Bayerns. and with an initial speed of 800 m / s.
    1. 0
      11 February 2019 07: 14
      I would like to add that at the time of laying byrne was such a child prodigy that, apart from the British, no one hoped to seriously make an equal in power. In this regard, it is good to look at the controversy of our shipbuilders as they walked to the Ishmael bookmark. This is if you are too keen on fantasies about German calibers.
  22. +4
    19 December 2018 03: 05
    Tired already !!! One and the same, high-quality, exciting, informative. As long as you can, you ply and ply, and the end is not visible to the edge. If only one weak article were written, we would have pounced, bit, so no, reading again instead of sleep. )))
  23. +1
    19 December 2018 07: 46
    Article +. As always interesting to read Lice articles!
  24. 0
    19 December 2018 10: 54
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Early sclerosis? :)))

    1) Are you a doctor to make diagnoses, and even on the Web? bully
    2) Look at the wording of my answers - they are accurate - I am not talking about power, but about the sufficiency of the 15 and 16 shells
  25. 0
    19 December 2018 10: 55
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    And you openly amuse me with your militant illiteracy.

    actually it’s your path ... you ignore my delicate instructions on your technical illiteracy ... your right .. bully
  26. +2
    19 December 2018 16: 06
    The fact is that the quality of the armor could only be established by equivalent tests of armored plates of the same thickness of all manufacturers, but this never happened.

    It's no secret that the protective ability of armor depends to a large extent on the type and quality of the armor-piercing projectile. The same armor holds differently different armor-piercing shells. So you always need to evaluate specific armor against a particular projectile.
    the flat trajectory is not only the "fastest" (short flight time of the projectile), but also more accurate when firing at moving targets. In addition, a light projectile lost speed faster when firing at long distances and the second part of the trajectory was more hinged.

    On the other side:
    1. The deck is much larger as a target than the side and when it is, it has much thinner armor. TO
    2. In addition, the impact of side armor depends to a large extent on the heading angle, and the deck is affected the same for all heading angles.
    3. A lower initial velocity of the projectile expands the penetration zone of horizontal armor, but not bad for the gun itself - it lengthens life. Look at the distance of penetration of horizontal armor of the same thickness by reductions and combat charges.
    4. Finally, the shell of a smaller caliber gun loses energy and speed faster and therefore the coal of incidence is larger at a shorter distance and breaking through horizontal armor can be bit more at a real battle distance than a larger caliber gun.
    1. +1
      24 December 2018 13: 22
      As for accuracy, depending on the flatness, it can be argued that the deck of battleships built in the 30s is practically not affected at distances of up to 23 km. Mounted fire gives a significant dispersion due to inhomogeneous atmosphere, pitching and aiming errors. Therefore, at a real distance, the scatter for a low-velocity projectile is much higher. To defeat the enemy across the deck, distances of 26-30 km are required, on which fire on a maneuvering target is ineffective.
      In addition, superheavy low-speed shells did not show themselves well when hit at a significant angle of encounter with the armor. They do worse to normal and often crack. Only Americans managed to bring them to an acceptable level. The rest were content with either light shells (Germans, Japanese), or medium ones (British, French, Italians).
  27. 0
    20 December 2018 09: 05
    Quote: DimerVladimer
    On the other hand, the later developed naval gun 38 cm SKC / 34, fully met the requirements imposed on it

    And weighed 111t with a muzzle energy of 269 MJ. Dear colleague Dmitry, how is it possible that Amer. 406mm / 45 Mark6 weighed 87t (least of all! Although without a shutter) with a muzzle energy of 301 MJ? After all, guns are contemporaries.

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